WEBVTT 00:00:10.020 --> 00:00:13.300 You're listening to Fusion Patrol, a listener-supported podcast. 00:00:14.740 --> 00:00:18.580 Each week, we take a single episode of a science fiction TV series or movie 00:00:19.100 --> 00:00:22.220 and overanalyze it to within an inch of its life. 00:00:23.000 --> 00:00:24.160 Welcome to the discussion. 00:00:29.160 --> 00:00:32.060 Hello and welcome to another episode of Fusion Patrol. I'm Eugene. 00:00:32.800 --> 00:00:33.300 And I'm Simon. 00:00:33.960 --> 00:00:39.460 And tonight, we're coming to the end of a bumper crop year for Doctor Who animations. 00:00:39.950 --> 00:00:46.140 We have had four this year, culminating with Galaxy 4. 00:00:46.980 --> 00:00:52.020 First Doctor adventure we've had animated in quite a while. 00:00:52.600 --> 00:01:04.100 So we have looked at Galaxy 4 before and when it was put out on as a bonus feature on another disc, although I don't remember which one. 00:01:04.680 --> 00:01:05.660 It wasn't animated. 00:01:06.460 --> 00:01:07.140 Was it the Aztecs? 00:01:07.640 --> 00:01:07.980 It was. 00:01:07.990 --> 00:01:13.760 And it was a partial photo snap missing footage recreation. 00:01:14.700 --> 00:01:15.300 Partially animated. 00:01:15.300 --> 00:01:15.600 Cut down. 00:01:16.220 --> 00:01:20.680 Yeah, it had some little 3D chumblies in it and whatnot. 00:01:20.900 --> 00:01:26.960 But we are looking at the proper, full-on, animated Blu-ray release. 00:01:28.360 --> 00:01:31.960 And since we have talked about it before, my synopsis might reflect that. 00:01:32.440 --> 00:01:36.680 So, story synopsis, the four-part, Galaxy 4. 00:01:37.380 --> 00:01:41.660 The Doctor, Vicky, and Steven land on what appears to be a dead or dying planet. 00:01:41.840 --> 00:01:45.080 But soon, the TARDIS is being investigated by small robots. 00:01:45.700 --> 00:01:50.280 Vicky coins the name Chumblies because they walk in a Chumbly fashion. 00:01:51.240 --> 00:01:57.460 investigating they are somewhat taken prisoners by the chumblees who cannot speak they're being 00:01:57.640 --> 00:02:03.720 taken somewhere but the trio are rescued by the draven beautiful amazonian warriors taken to their 00:02:03.840 --> 00:02:09.340 spaceship which is wrecked on the planet they meet maga the head draven she explains that they're 00:02:09.560 --> 00:02:15.339 war with the rills the hideous disgusting creatures that control the chumblees the rill have also 00:02:15.360 --> 00:02:20.580 crashed on the planet. Further complication, the planet will self-destruct in two days' time. 00:02:21.420 --> 00:02:25.580 Holding Stephen prisoner, the Draven coerces the Doctor and Vicky to try to take the Rill spacecraft 00:02:26.040 --> 00:02:31.280 so that they can all escape. This goes wrong when Vicky is captured and they discover that the Rills, 00:02:31.680 --> 00:02:37.300 who are ammonia-breathing creatures, are actually advanced and peaceful and have only been trying to 00:02:37.330 --> 00:02:42.499 help the Draven. The Doctor agrees to transfer power from the TARDIS to the Rill so they can 00:02:42.520 --> 00:02:47.260 escape the planet. Things all come down to the wire as the Dravens try to take possession of 00:02:47.260 --> 00:02:53.780 the real ship as the planet dies. The Rills and the TARDIS escape, leaving the Draven to their fate. 00:02:54.100 --> 00:03:01.200 Right. What are your thoughts on this second dip at Galaxy 4? 00:03:01.870 --> 00:03:07.239 Well, obviously the big change is the animation, but I am just going to have to mention the fact 00:03:07.300 --> 00:03:12.520 that my take on the story is different from what it was five years ago. 00:03:13.360 --> 00:03:19.340 And so I was quite, I was sort of having watched the animated version 00:03:19.440 --> 00:03:24.400 that we've just had and then going back and listening to what I said then. 00:03:24.440 --> 00:03:27.720 I kind of listened to five-year-old me laying out the case 00:03:27.920 --> 00:03:34.520 for why the story didn't do a very good job of world building 00:03:34.620 --> 00:03:36.280 and what was wrong with the writing and everything. 00:03:36.500 --> 00:03:40.380 And, you know, it was a reasonable case, reasonably made case. 00:03:40.920 --> 00:03:43.860 But five year old me was wrong. That was the problem with it. 00:03:44.220 --> 00:04:01.240 And actually, I ended up agreeing with everything that you said this time around, you know, that it is the way the way actually a lot of the things that aren't included in this are help it to be a well focused morality tale. 00:04:01.760 --> 00:04:07.500 the the kind of beauty on the inside stuff and and all that i don't think you need an indigenous 00:04:07.640 --> 00:04:10.720 population i don't even think you need an explanation for why the planet is going to 00:04:11.110 --> 00:04:18.959 to blow up i found it quite an enjoyable viewing um and that wasn't really true last time and so 00:04:19.120 --> 00:04:26.899 one of the things that i'm curious about is whether that is an effect of having the animated version 00:04:27.220 --> 00:04:36.100 to look at rather than the sort of mix that we had last time of um well essentially one and a 00:04:36.160 --> 00:04:43.140 half episodes of live animation bolstered with um bolstered with a sort of cut down partially 00:04:43.460 --> 00:04:51.959 animated partially photoshopped reconstruction i will go on the record right now and say that 00:04:52.120 --> 00:04:58.160 I think it's the animation and I am willing to bet good money if and when they ever released 00:04:58.160 --> 00:05:04.020 the underwater menace properly animated I will like it better than I did the version that they 00:05:04.260 --> 00:05:12.560 released because you know it lived and died on the voices you heard and the words they spoke 00:05:13.300 --> 00:05:21.059 and it was not in any way benefited by what they put on the screen and I'm sure it's better than 00:05:21.580 --> 00:05:28.400 I think it is. And I'm still marveling at the fact that you liked it. But, and it's interesting 00:05:28.560 --> 00:05:38.520 because a five-year-old ago, us, I liked Galaxy 4. And we reviewed this just after having reviewed 00:05:39.360 --> 00:05:46.259 Underwater Menace, which I did not like. And I liked Galaxy 4 the way they had done it. I thought 00:05:46.280 --> 00:05:53.080 that, you know, maybe coming off of how awful the Underwater Menace job was, that what we saw in 00:05:53.190 --> 00:06:03.080 Galaxy 4 was a lot more enjoyable. I, however, and I enjoyed this. I enjoyed watching it this time. 00:06:03.090 --> 00:06:09.060 I was like, yay, another one, Doctor Who. Good. This is good, Doctor Who. I am so going to get 00:06:09.420 --> 00:06:13.940 done watching this before I have to watch another episode of The Flux so that I can, you know, 00:06:14.020 --> 00:06:22.320 cleanse the palate and I found the original story having watched it five years ago and the only time 00:06:22.320 --> 00:06:29.660 I ever watched it should be pretty forgettable and so I kind of was surprised again at what was 00:06:29.760 --> 00:06:36.480 happening I knew the basic tale of the Draven's bad real's good but I was surprised at how much 00:06:36.480 --> 00:06:42.339 of it is like yeah I kind of remember this but I don't and I don't know if that's a function 00:06:42.840 --> 00:06:48.640 of having watched it in the stills animation 00:06:49.520 --> 00:06:50.760 and live action recreation. 00:06:52.140 --> 00:06:54.040 But it'll be interesting to see in five years 00:06:54.140 --> 00:06:56.720 if I remember Galaxy 4 again. 00:06:57.500 --> 00:06:58.820 It'll be interesting to see in five years 00:06:58.840 --> 00:07:00.020 if I remember anything again. 00:07:00.200 --> 00:07:03.380 But I did enjoy it, 00:07:03.420 --> 00:07:07.480 but I don't feel like I got the same feeling out of it 00:07:07.480 --> 00:07:09.240 that I did last time. 00:07:09.660 --> 00:07:10.920 And I can't tell you what it is, 00:07:11.040 --> 00:07:14.280 But listening to myself talk about it on the podcast, I definitely liked it. 00:07:14.580 --> 00:07:15.980 I definitely liked it this time. 00:07:16.380 --> 00:07:19.080 And yet somehow, I don't think it, I don't know. 00:07:20.120 --> 00:07:22.460 I'm not saying I'm detracting this time. 00:07:23.080 --> 00:07:25.140 It just kind of feels like it was a different experience. 00:07:25.980 --> 00:07:31.980 And I don't know if that's good or bad, but I'm going to go with good just because make more animations. 00:07:32.280 --> 00:07:32.800 But I'm not. 00:07:34.520 --> 00:07:38.760 So my feeling on this is it is definitely a different experience. 00:07:39.160 --> 00:07:51.880 When we talked about it before, we kind of felt like that what they had done with the previous animation was quite an impressive way of filling in the gaps where there's a load of missing material. 00:07:53.220 --> 00:07:57.220 It showed very much where the kind of gaps were. 00:07:57.800 --> 00:08:09.940 But on the other hand, it conveyed very much what you were kind of supposed to be getting from the visuals that were accompanying the soundtrack that, of course, you're still able to hear. 00:08:10.520 --> 00:08:23.160 And in terms of the actual animation in the new Galaxy 4, it's the same people, you know, Big Finish Creative, DigiTunes, etc., who did Fury from the Deep. 00:08:23.380 --> 00:08:26.280 And my reaction to it is almost exactly the same. 00:08:26.720 --> 00:08:28.860 I dislike the same things I disliked before. 00:08:29.440 --> 00:08:31.740 I like the things that I liked before. 00:08:33.520 --> 00:08:44.060 But what's interesting to me in comparing the kind of two versions that we have had now of Galaxy 4 is that it is a different experience. 00:08:44.120 --> 00:08:50.880 When you say it's a different experience watching this, I think it deliberately is a different experience. 00:08:51.140 --> 00:09:20.700 I mean, we've sort of touched on this before, but there are perhaps bigger divergences between what would be a pure kind of this is what was this animation is reconstructing what might have been in the 1960s to know this is actually now a realisation of the story in a way that takes full advantage of the things that. 00:09:21.160 --> 00:09:29.140 are now possible and it i mean it's not yeah it it it's not straying too far i think from the 00:09:29.350 --> 00:09:33.720 spirit of the story that it that it did you know you've still it's still got a match with the 00:09:33.900 --> 00:09:38.220 soundtrack that you're hearing right um and it's and it's still got to feel like it's part of that 00:09:38.360 --> 00:09:43.440 that kind of heart and all season but it it it what what you're what you're kind of seeing with 00:09:43.600 --> 00:09:49.419 the with the the previous animated version was very much this is this is to give you an idea of 00:09:49.440 --> 00:09:54.200 what it could have looked like let your let your brain fill in the gaps here but this is this is 00:09:54.340 --> 00:10:04.120 basically you watching a 1960s studio bound Doctor Who in black and white whereas this is a much 00:10:04.820 --> 00:10:09.640 bigger scale because you know it's if you're on an alien planet and the thing was filmed in a studio 00:10:10.420 --> 00:10:18.139 and it's I mean we'll come back to this but it's it's in color and it includes sequences that 00:10:18.140 --> 00:10:24.060 were not and obviously could not have been in the original production and i think that's quite an 00:10:24.220 --> 00:10:29.220 interesting choice i i you know i i know where you're going there is the fact that so for example 00:10:29.220 --> 00:10:35.380 there are scenes where someone's up on a cliff looking down on them at distance when in the 00:10:35.540 --> 00:10:42.019 studio version they they were no more no way seven feet away yeah and uh but what i do think is 00:10:42.040 --> 00:10:48.780 interesting is that they took the design, the studio set design of the planet with the weird 00:10:48.900 --> 00:10:56.560 looking plants and what, and they just stretched it out so that it is, it is that studio set with 00:10:56.680 --> 00:11:04.320 those weird studio plants, but it's big and they can operate in a bigger canvas. And I think that 00:11:04.460 --> 00:11:09.340 works very, very well. And I, I appreciate it. They've just taken this world and they said, 00:11:09.460 --> 00:11:14.240 if that studio had actually been Pinewood instead of Closetwood, 00:11:15.060 --> 00:11:19.400 then, and we'd had a budget instead of a shoebox, 00:11:20.060 --> 00:11:22.980 this is what this set probably would have looked like. 00:11:22.980 --> 00:11:25.720 And I, yeah, I mean, I, I would, 00:11:25.880 --> 00:11:28.520 I would say there's nothing there that wouldn't have been achievable in the 00:11:28.880 --> 00:11:31.880 sixties, but you would have had to, I mean, 00:11:32.440 --> 00:11:33.200 I'm not somewhere else. 00:11:33.820 --> 00:11:39.380 I think you'd have needed location shoots in the Outback, but you know, 00:11:39.440 --> 00:11:46.100 It is not like it's something that you couldn't do, but it is something that they very definitely didn't do. 00:11:46.520 --> 00:11:54.300 And what's quite interesting about it is the previous reconstruction very much designed around fitting around the existing footage. 00:11:54.500 --> 00:12:13.760 And we did kind of talk about how jarring it was to go from or how jarring I found it to go from a kind of section that had been recreated by essentially a sequence of stills into some of the some of the kind of existing live action footage and then back into the stills. 00:12:13.960 --> 00:12:24.160 And they've done the complete opposite here in the sense that although they have got an episode and a half of live action footage, they've animated all four episodes. 00:12:24.880 --> 00:12:28.940 And did you watch episode three or did you watch it straight through animation? 00:12:29.830 --> 00:12:31.380 I watched it straight through animation. 00:12:32.260 --> 00:12:33.640 I did watch some of it. 00:12:33.970 --> 00:12:35.520 Which is a different experience, isn't it? 00:12:35.980 --> 00:12:38.020 Yes. Yes, it is. Yeah, it is. 00:12:38.280 --> 00:12:49.540 I'll tell you, I made a couple of notes. And one of the things that really got me was there's a scene in the original where they they approached the Dravan spacecraft for the first time. 00:12:51.120 --> 00:13:01.660 And when you look at that exterior Dravan spaceship and you hear them talking about how a piece of junk it is, basically. 00:13:02.320 --> 00:13:08.600 I will say this the BBC actual version looks like a bigger piece of junk than the animated version 00:13:08.980 --> 00:13:14.200 it looks it looks better in the and I can you can see that they're kind of trying to make it look 00:13:14.779 --> 00:13:21.460 grungy but they have not succeeded in what the BBC art department did in the original probably 00:13:21.730 --> 00:13:28.040 through lack of money rather than design but I think it's more accident than intention I think 00:13:28.060 --> 00:13:33.580 it's accident by intent but that was because there are some scenes again because i was going 00:13:33.680 --> 00:13:41.060 into this thing kind of fresh-ish so when steve's like wow what a piece of junk you know you're 00:13:41.080 --> 00:13:46.480 looking around the ship and i'm going doesn't really look like a piece of junk to me but then 00:13:46.480 --> 00:13:51.880 i guess maybe i'm seeing that through steven the spaceman's eyes who knows something about 00:13:52.200 --> 00:13:58.020 starships to me it's just like spaceship and to him it's like oh yeah this is you know look at 00:13:58.500 --> 00:14:05.140 climatic regulator or whatever it has and but it it does it does look like a piece of junk in the 00:14:06.260 --> 00:14:12.260 in the bbc version i wonder if that inspired when douglas adams wrote arthur dent's reaction to the 00:14:12.300 --> 00:14:16.940 vogon ship and then seeing heart of gold and going this is what i think a spaceship should look like 00:14:17.420 --> 00:14:22.780 so sorry something just occurred to me on that on that see just this is a slight tangent but on that 00:14:22.800 --> 00:14:27.160 sequence of the first approach to the Dharvin spaceship. I think there is an example there 00:14:27.660 --> 00:14:36.440 of where they have actually been somewhat constrained by the original in the sense that 00:14:37.060 --> 00:14:44.400 the approach to the Dharvin spaceship is the very beginning of the existing footage from episode one. 00:14:44.960 --> 00:14:51.140 So people will be quite familiar with seeing the kind of actors rushing up and going through the 00:14:51.160 --> 00:14:56.620 door there for me as i kind of said with fury of the deep the big weakness of this animation is 00:14:57.020 --> 00:15:02.120 when you see the kind of where essentially where it's fine when they're just sort of standing there 00:15:02.180 --> 00:15:05.880 talking to each other but when they're doing whole body movements in particular running it looks 00:15:06.030 --> 00:15:13.040 really bad and the fact that they you know most of most of the episodes all of episode two all of 00:15:13.120 --> 00:15:19.320 episode four are missing they don't have any tele snaps etc etc they it frees them up to sort of just 00:15:19.340 --> 00:15:25.200 do whatever they want which includes they can play to the strength of the animation and not do the 00:15:25.340 --> 00:15:30.740 things that look a bit naff so I did wonder whether that kind of running from the right hand side to 00:15:30.800 --> 00:15:36.340 the left hand side of the screen with their legs sort of scissoring was something that they only 00:15:36.560 --> 00:15:43.440 put in there because they thought it was a kind of essential element that fans would remember 00:15:43.460 --> 00:15:50.320 hmm i'll tell you one thing that i noticed that was different in that same kind of area and and 00:15:50.480 --> 00:15:57.540 maybe this is the director of the original wanted to play the script differently than the animator 00:15:57.650 --> 00:16:06.360 wanted to play the script but what i got out of watching the animated version was lines like uh 00:16:06.780 --> 00:16:12.140 the doctor and steven talking about the thing the ship saying it's you know it's a piece of junk oh 00:16:12.160 --> 00:16:18.560 it's fossilized and then steven going well it has got one or two things of interest to it 00:16:19.060 --> 00:16:26.440 and it feels like he's talking about the dravins but if you watch my version he is looking around 00:16:27.180 --> 00:16:34.320 at the ship not the girls when he says that line and it doesn't sound nearly as creepy 00:16:37.180 --> 00:16:45.140 and and it's like huh i that that is different i i i read that scene completely differently 00:16:45.720 --> 00:16:51.560 i read everything steven says in the animation when he's talking about anything good he's talking 00:16:51.800 --> 00:16:58.820 about the the pulchritude of the dravins and anything and in the anime or in the live it 00:16:58.820 --> 00:17:03.100 just didn't quite it doesn't come off that way and it could just be the director said oh don't 00:17:03.120 --> 00:17:08.819 be staring them right in the look around the room or something look at the ceiling or something so 00:17:08.900 --> 00:17:15.400 it's you know imagine their eyes are up there yeah do you because it's it's i guess it's harder 00:17:15.400 --> 00:17:20.839 to be subtle in the animation and yeah there are there are definitely things that are harder to do 00:17:20.839 --> 00:17:26.839 in the animation and then there are things that are easier to do in the animation yeah so i i mean 00:17:26.959 --> 00:17:32.539 i noticed a number of quite specific differences around what they've chosen to do with the animation 00:17:32.560 --> 00:17:41.400 know are different they did anyway the big one for me is in that in that sequence and you know 00:17:41.540 --> 00:17:47.520 it's very obvious that it's different because we have that surviving clip of the scene when marga 00:17:47.520 --> 00:17:53.740 is talking about how they came to the planet the animation goes to this massive flashback of the 00:17:53.900 --> 00:17:59.300 ships arriving which you know even even if you didn't have that clip you think well would they 00:17:59.500 --> 00:18:04.120 would they have been able to do that and uh i i don't i think that's quite an interesting 00:18:04.820 --> 00:18:12.980 choice i think essentially i i like it i can see what it adds because you know you can you can argue 00:18:13.300 --> 00:18:19.900 that had they been able to do it at the time then they might well have done yeah and it adds more 00:18:20.060 --> 00:18:25.880 visual interest um to a scene that is essentially somebody standing there talking to you and a person 00:18:25.900 --> 00:18:32.980 they're talking to you in animation is in animation kind of yeah exactly so so it it's 00:18:33.090 --> 00:18:37.340 something that is is not terror it doesn't come off terribly well in the animation is also a lot 00:18:37.340 --> 00:18:42.660 more difficult to do so the animators have made their jobs easier by doing a simpler animation 00:18:43.580 --> 00:18:50.340 which is also kind of visually rewarding would i be right in assuming that the scene where 00:18:50.860 --> 00:18:58.180 they recount how maga so i believe it's the real recounting it how how maga actually killed her own 00:18:58.480 --> 00:19:06.140 soldier the wounded soldier in episode four we we also see that in flashback in in episode four in 00:19:06.140 --> 00:19:12.000 the animated version but i've enough that i see and from the interviews on the making of documentary 00:19:12.420 --> 00:19:18.559 they clearly filmed that scene so in other words the director did use that device 00:19:19.180 --> 00:19:23.540 yeah when people are no it's in episode three isn't it it's in episode three i'm not sure 00:19:24.260 --> 00:19:30.280 we have we do have sequence that does exist have have we got that sequence of of manga shooting 00:19:30.310 --> 00:19:36.580 or do we just have some stills of that and and the actress talking about how they did that i i 00:19:36.580 --> 00:19:42.440 don't know because i didn't i didn't watch the i definitely i definitely have a recollection of it 00:19:42.460 --> 00:19:50.780 um so but my point is simply that it's you know it is in the style of what that director did 00:19:51.540 --> 00:19:57.060 in that story anyway well actually i think i think that is where the big potential problem 00:19:57.300 --> 00:20:04.760 with it exists because what you've got there is a flashback which is in as far as we can tell 00:20:04.820 --> 00:20:14.020 from everything else in the story a a true recollection of what actually happened so there 00:20:14.020 --> 00:20:19.120 are two ways you could interpret what the flashbacks are they could be a visual representation 00:20:19.380 --> 00:20:26.160 of what the character is telling us or they could be us actually seeing something that happened at 00:20:26.160 --> 00:20:31.200 an earlier time through the magic of editing and right fair enough no it is in episode three by 00:20:31.220 --> 00:20:36.600 the way the flashback that is in there is it could be either because we believe it to be true 00:20:36.940 --> 00:20:42.020 and the real is telling us something true the flashback in episode one that they've added 00:20:42.900 --> 00:20:49.280 could not be real because it contradicts what we are told by the real when he recounts what 00:20:49.580 --> 00:20:54.980 marga has recounted in episode three and we didn't get his flashback version we didn't get his 00:20:55.120 --> 00:21:00.300 flashback version but but but we're told that they you know they stopped there and there was this 00:21:00.320 --> 00:21:05.860 standoff and there was a you know there's a different account of who fired first and etc etc 00:21:06.240 --> 00:21:10.520 and so it doesn't what what we are told by the real at that point does not tally with what we 00:21:10.640 --> 00:21:16.340 see in the in the new animated flashback that we get in episode one so that that very much is in 00:21:16.440 --> 00:21:21.580 the style of the flashback is purely a visual representation of what the character is saying 00:21:22.100 --> 00:21:29.120 it doesn't give us any clue as to what the truth is you know i that that that made me pause and 00:21:29.140 --> 00:21:35.240 think you know is is is this kind of quite major artistic choice is that acceptable 00:21:36.300 --> 00:21:42.840 you know i i think it is because of the the i think it works but i i think you know after your 00:21:43.020 --> 00:21:46.960 explanation i would have i would have gone ahead and said they should have also animated what the 00:21:47.100 --> 00:21:54.280 real said so that you have two animations of the two different versions i mean i i i agree i i am 00:21:54.440 --> 00:21:59.540 I am very, very much easier now about, well, I guess I never have. 00:21:59.640 --> 00:22:04.680 I mean, it's one of the things that I felt about the way they reigned in the reign of terror. 00:22:04.710 --> 00:22:11.260 I thought it was unnecessary because I quite liked the very heavily stylized animation in that. 00:22:11.740 --> 00:22:16.940 And that's partly because I consider these to be works of art in their own right. 00:22:17.580 --> 00:22:24.260 So, you know, although they are working with material from the original production in the sense of using 00:22:24.280 --> 00:22:31.220 soundtrack let's not pretend that what they are realizing is what em's intended in his right or 00:22:31.810 --> 00:22:36.820 you know derek martinus's interpretation of it they they may be trying to extrapolate something 00:22:37.380 --> 00:22:44.380 there but what we're talking about we're seeing on screen is you know the the it's it's not it's 00:22:44.500 --> 00:22:49.700 not actually uh gary russell who directs this one it's it's chloe greff who i think worked on 00:22:49.720 --> 00:22:56.940 Fury of the Deep but wasn't the director but it's it's her take or at the very least it's her take 00:22:57.080 --> 00:23:03.960 on what she thinks that Ems or Martinus wanted to happen or should have wanted to happen it you 00:23:03.960 --> 00:23:08.520 know it's her hope for what they would have liked to happen but who can say you know Ems isn't with 00:23:08.520 --> 00:23:16.260 us anymore so you can't you can't kind of you you can't say this is this is what he would have wanted 00:23:16.280 --> 00:23:23.380 done if he was you know if he was writing for something that had a budget with money to rent 00:23:23.540 --> 00:23:28.700 Pinewood or go to the Outback I'm not really I'm not really suggesting that I think they would have 00:23:28.700 --> 00:23:34.840 a problem with it I'm just saying I really don't think it matters what they think it should be like 00:23:35.340 --> 00:23:44.660 what matters to me in terms of experiencing this now is the coherence of what we see on screen as 00:23:45.000 --> 00:23:52.600 a work in its own right this is this is inspired by the original production of galaxy 4 but it is 00:23:52.980 --> 00:23:59.080 in at least to some degree a remake and the perhaps going back to this question of why did 00:23:59.080 --> 00:24:07.040 i find it more enjoyable perhaps the reason around that is because it does it does feel more coherent 00:24:07.100 --> 00:24:11.300 to be watching this single vision of what it's like. 00:24:11.760 --> 00:24:14.280 Yes, the animation isn't perfect, 00:24:15.030 --> 00:24:18.520 but it does have a lot of benefits over the original. 00:24:19.320 --> 00:24:21.340 If you still watch episode three, 00:24:21.680 --> 00:24:23.600 and I kind of mentioned this before, 00:24:23.690 --> 00:24:29.360 but the way that Vicky gets trapped by the rill in the ship, 00:24:31.219 --> 00:24:36.279 by an effect, these bars coming down 00:24:36.300 --> 00:24:38.680 that obviously are terribly lightweight 00:24:38.860 --> 00:24:40.620 and not capable of holding anyone in. 00:24:41.060 --> 00:24:45.320 And so, you know, immediately that takes me out of it. 00:24:45.480 --> 00:24:48.460 And, you know, likewise, you have the Doctor and Ricky 00:24:48.700 --> 00:24:50.040 hiding behind a box at one point, 00:24:50.080 --> 00:24:52.580 and it clearly, it wouldn't, 00:24:53.240 --> 00:24:54.660 I don't know why they're hiding, 00:24:54.780 --> 00:24:56.980 because the Chumbleeys can only detect them by sound, 00:24:57.060 --> 00:24:58.700 but it wouldn't prevent them being seen 00:24:58.780 --> 00:24:59.740 if they could be seen. 00:24:59.920 --> 00:25:03.500 So those kinds of things are failures 00:25:03.620 --> 00:25:04.620 of the original production. 00:25:05.180 --> 00:25:06.920 And I mean, last time around, I did. 00:25:07.100 --> 00:25:08.320 I tried to make the case. 00:25:08.330 --> 00:25:09.620 No, there was problems with the writing. 00:25:09.720 --> 00:25:13.780 But actually, I think it was probably the issues I had were around the production, 00:25:14.030 --> 00:25:21.640 because the animated version wears its shortcomings on its sleeve, in a sense. 00:25:21.820 --> 00:25:25.480 It's not pretending to be live action in any sense, 00:25:26.020 --> 00:25:31.620 but it gives you an animated version of the story that I think is what it is. 00:25:31.820 --> 00:25:35.980 And in terms of that, I think it's a very enjoyable watch. 00:25:36.240 --> 00:25:40.600 I have a couple of questions about the one thing that I mean, there are a couple of things. 00:25:40.680 --> 00:25:44.200 For example, the Chumleys have a much more articulated claw. 00:25:44.820 --> 00:25:49.440 OK, fine. Yeah. I mean, it is kind of in keeping with they did have a sort of claw thing. 00:25:50.460 --> 00:25:52.440 It was pretty pathetic, but it was it. 00:25:52.760 --> 00:25:58.540 It moves in a way that, you know, again, coming back to this thing of what they couldn't possibly have done at the time. 00:25:58.860 --> 00:26:04.240 moves in a way that they couldn't have made something like that because it's too thin to 00:26:04.520 --> 00:26:11.880 articulate so smoothly right yeah but the you know that one that one is nothing i mean it's 00:26:12.240 --> 00:26:18.260 yes it's it's just we somebody said this thing's got a claw and it reaches out and grabs it somebody 00:26:18.360 --> 00:26:23.619 in the art department said uh okay but in the animation department they can just go go for it 00:26:23.640 --> 00:26:33.420 There are two things that seemed to me very different, and they must be artistic choices, one of which has relevance to the story, one of which does not. 00:26:33.920 --> 00:26:38.280 The one that does, to me, have relevance, it doesn't. 00:26:38.860 --> 00:26:41.460 It doesn't make a difference, but it does. 00:26:42.000 --> 00:26:43.460 To me, the Dravan look identical. 00:26:44.820 --> 00:26:45.940 They look like they're clones. 00:26:46.860 --> 00:26:51.600 the grown Dravan look like they're clones in the animated version when they are obviously not 00:26:52.220 --> 00:26:58.420 in the original version and nothing is made of that except that you know Maga says these aren't 00:26:58.860 --> 00:27:05.540 living beings they're made in a test tube and the animation sort of conveys that better because 00:27:05.660 --> 00:27:11.859 they do look like they're off an assembly line more so than they did in in reality and and they 00:27:11.880 --> 00:27:17.120 must have done that on purpose because oh yeah they did about the fact that they do a very good 00:27:17.320 --> 00:27:24.120 job of capturing the original actor uh in their likeness so that you know that i can spot wanda 00:27:24.300 --> 00:27:30.840 ventnum when i see her in an animated form you're like oh wow look at that i know that i know that 00:27:30.920 --> 00:27:37.419 person and here uh i know they were probably trying to downplay their individuality in the 00:27:37.440 --> 00:27:43.360 original by hiring to a type but you know they weren't quite the same height and they weren't 00:27:43.700 --> 00:27:49.400 they didn't look quite the same and certainly they're very distinguishable visually and 00:27:49.600 --> 00:27:56.060 obviously in this version they are they have different voices but they're obviously identical 00:27:56.420 --> 00:28:04.179 in the sense that they've reused the the exact same model it kind of changes it kind of changes 00:28:04.200 --> 00:28:09.500 the Dravan but it doesn't make any impact on this story but you know if you were if you were going 00:28:09.500 --> 00:28:15.740 to have a a future Dravan story which approach would you go with the clone Dravan or would you 00:28:15.840 --> 00:28:23.960 go with the the similar but not the like I am sympathetic to to um I mean Gary Russell would 00:28:24.120 --> 00:28:29.539 say that was the intention and I I don't want to contradict what I just said I mean we don't 00:28:30.360 --> 00:28:34.260 We don't necessarily know whether this would have been done 00:28:34.360 --> 00:28:35.060 if it were possible. 00:28:35.880 --> 00:28:40.520 But yes, I mean, it's not just that they are identical 00:28:40.770 --> 00:28:41.740 in terms of being clones. 00:28:41.920 --> 00:28:44.980 It's that he actually creates a little dock for them to plug into. 00:28:47.520 --> 00:28:50.960 So the reason I think you can say that, 00:28:51.930 --> 00:28:54.160 I don't know that it's something they would have done 00:28:54.340 --> 00:28:56.660 or that it was their intention, 00:28:57.130 --> 00:28:58.980 would have been their intention to do that if they could, 00:28:59.360 --> 00:29:06.320 but you can back it up from the text because that that thing of whatever it is recharging or 00:29:06.940 --> 00:29:14.080 revitalizing with nutrients or whatever it is does tie directly into the the comment that marga 00:29:14.220 --> 00:29:18.920 makes about them being created it reinforces something that's already there it may literally 00:29:19.240 --> 00:29:26.539 say in the script you know the women are identical and you know that just you know in stage direction 00:29:26.580 --> 00:29:32.040 uh or or we don't we don't know what's in that part of it that doesn't necessarily get translated 00:29:32.560 --> 00:29:39.460 uh onto screen the other one it's very very much different and i'm gonna put it in the positive 00:29:39.700 --> 00:29:48.160 category but at the same time it's kind of it's kind of a shame and that's the draven ship now 00:29:48.180 --> 00:29:56.380 I'll be the first to say the Draven ship in the original is rubbish. It is really the most 00:29:57.060 --> 00:30:04.280 pathetic spaceship we've ever seen. And maybe it isn't. I have some doubts there. But you know, 00:30:04.400 --> 00:30:13.140 it's clear. It looks like it's made out of plastic around triangular frames. It's really something, 00:30:13.920 --> 00:30:17.380 Nothing like what you see in the animation except for the triangular shapes. 00:30:18.080 --> 00:30:28.180 But on the other hand, I think it was a bold and daring attempt to do something very different in the original. 00:30:28.740 --> 00:30:29.980 It's like, we don't have much money. 00:30:30.620 --> 00:30:31.340 What can we do? 00:30:31.600 --> 00:30:35.860 We can say this is alien, so it can be completely unlike our expectations. 00:30:36.900 --> 00:30:39.320 And they tried something, and it didn't work. 00:30:39.800 --> 00:30:49.320 And I just kind of wonder if they should have tried a little harder to incorporate that into the animation. 00:30:50.680 --> 00:30:56.960 I think that, I mean, this is guesswork because I haven't heard anything from the animators to back this up. 00:30:57.360 --> 00:31:05.980 And I mean, I like the fact they include the triangular elements of it because it does feel like there's a nod to the original spaceship in there. 00:31:06.120 --> 00:31:21.760 But I think the transparency would create difficulties for them in animating it in much the same way that they have turned Vicky's dress into a solid green colour instead of the kind of, I mean, you can't see the colour in the surviving clips. 00:31:22.020 --> 00:31:27.240 But I think Peter Purvis said it was green and you can see that it's a sort of paisley patterning. 00:31:27.840 --> 00:31:39.140 And they didn't want to reanimate the Paisley patterning in much the same way that the other team of animators felt that it was a terrible mistake to have given Patrick Troughton his Czech trousers in Power of the Daleks. 00:31:39.600 --> 00:31:39.820 Yeah. 00:31:40.080 --> 00:31:45.020 So I think all of the kind of transparency stuff in the spaceship, it is cool. 00:31:45.060 --> 00:31:45.760 I agree with you. 00:31:45.880 --> 00:31:47.800 And I like the ambition there. 00:31:48.120 --> 00:31:51.960 I just think they would, the animators would have made the same mistake. 00:31:52.220 --> 00:31:54.980 They would have been overstretching if they tried to recreate that. 00:31:55.840 --> 00:32:08.480 You know, the thing that occurred to me while I was kind of blundering through that was, is there supposed to be a ship and then like an extension built on the front where they're doing work? 00:32:09.100 --> 00:32:16.460 I think there's something there. There's something external or additional that is about the ammonia generation. 00:32:17.420 --> 00:32:21.180 Even the animated version, there's kind of like a two-layer effect. 00:32:21.430 --> 00:32:29.080 And I'm just kind of wondering if maybe that's a temporary structure they've built outside the ship. 00:32:29.760 --> 00:32:31.960 Maybe that's what they were kind of going for. 00:32:32.670 --> 00:32:38.880 There was something about the, in the animated, because I completely forgot about the transparent real ship. 00:32:38.990 --> 00:32:40.660 But there was something about the animated version. 00:32:41.260 --> 00:32:49.120 Something the doctor said as they approached the ship that made me think that maybe there was a work area out front. 00:32:49.860 --> 00:32:56.440 And if so, I could forgive that for being transparent plastic because it's a tent. 00:32:58.140 --> 00:33:00.560 But I don't know. 00:33:01.520 --> 00:33:08.060 I definitely liked this or I found it easier to accept the ship in the animated version. 00:33:08.780 --> 00:33:11.700 So I liked that in the animated version. 00:33:13.320 --> 00:33:16.780 Again, in terms of the differences, I put it in the positive column. 00:33:17.540 --> 00:33:21.320 You know, a bit like the planet blowing up and all the cracks appearing. 00:33:22.280 --> 00:33:23.900 You know, you don't see the planet blowing up. 00:33:24.400 --> 00:33:27.580 Yes, I understand in the original you don't see the ship take off either. 00:33:28.340 --> 00:33:29.860 No, that's what I mean. 00:33:30.060 --> 00:33:35.640 And the fact that we see the ship doing things that it wouldn't have been possible for it to do. 00:33:35.760 --> 00:33:43.580 And we see the planet exploding in a way that you just couldn't have, you know, you couldn't have added that effect or realize that in the studio. 00:33:45.820 --> 00:33:51.720 So they're definitely, you know, they're all part of the same thing of saying this is our playground now. 00:33:51.780 --> 00:34:04.520 We can we can add, we can imagine, we can explore limits that no longer exist, even while there are other limits that are simply due to the fact of animation. 00:34:05.140 --> 00:34:19.540 So the other one, which is kind of like a whole separate topic in its own right, and it's something that we've touched on with several of these because it's the modern way, isn't it, is they make it in colour, in colour widescreen, in fact. 00:34:20.040 --> 00:34:20.240 Yeah. 00:34:20.840 --> 00:34:25.460 So I, and, you know, that's a whole new realisation there. 00:34:25.520 --> 00:34:36.520 I mean, they may be they may have asked Peter Purvis what color Vicky's dress was, but a lot of those decisions are brand new creative decisions. 00:34:36.720 --> 00:34:42.520 Even if they had known what things were in the studio, you've no way of knowing whether they were deliberately. 00:34:42.919 --> 00:34:44.399 Well, they wouldn't have been deliberately those colors. 00:34:44.480 --> 00:34:50.100 They might have been colored for black contrast rather than the actual color. 00:34:50.280 --> 00:34:55.540 So what did you think of the colors and the color palette in this one? 00:34:56.879 --> 00:35:02.980 I thought that it's very interestingly timed to come out around the same time Dune did. 00:35:03.920 --> 00:35:11.060 You've definitely got that big orangey, sweeping, lifeless planet look. 00:35:11.240 --> 00:35:12.620 I was fine with it. 00:35:12.700 --> 00:35:21.380 I don't know if that's what I envisioned it being, but it certainly fit perfectly in my mind that that would be what it would look like. 00:35:22.080 --> 00:35:24.060 Did you watch any of the episodes in black and white? 00:35:24.480 --> 00:35:27.660 I did watch. I watched the first one in black and white. 00:35:28.260 --> 00:35:36.380 Right. I mean, I only I only ask because I kind of agree with you about the the kind of the Australian inspired scenery. 00:35:36.740 --> 00:35:42.560 It's it's they they realize something there that definitely isn't in the isn't in the studio. 00:35:42.680 --> 00:35:48.080 but equally it works well in black and white i'm not sure that's a color thing other than the fact 00:35:48.180 --> 00:35:55.160 that they've then gone for the kind of red look of it they've got three suns right so they they are 00:35:55.440 --> 00:36:02.840 i think it's three right so i can see how they might go for a strong yellowy orange feel to it 00:36:02.960 --> 00:36:10.079 as well you know that because that that kind of fits with that hot burning you know in in your 00:36:10.100 --> 00:36:17.860 mind i think that's that probably is why that works well i i'm not that keen on it right the 00:36:18.280 --> 00:36:24.200 you may not be surprised because i've been a bit skeptical about color but i was i was kind of 00:36:24.340 --> 00:36:31.880 getting there um particularly the faceless ones and you know to some extent evil i was and that's 00:36:31.880 --> 00:36:36.680 obviously the other team but i just i liked the way they were coloring it fitted with their style 00:36:36.700 --> 00:36:44.220 of animation this feels a little bit more kind of uh bright primary colors i felt a bit like i 00:36:44.690 --> 00:36:51.680 i did i watched an episode or two in color but i think i felt i preferred the black and white 00:36:52.090 --> 00:36:58.420 from an aesthetic viewpoint but the one thing that i would say did kind of work and and the 00:36:58.420 --> 00:37:02.260 and the other thing to note you know just in terms of the packaging is they're still presenting the 00:37:02.280 --> 00:37:08.140 black and white version on disc one which i am finding a bit odd because you know when you hear 00:37:08.280 --> 00:37:12.900 gary russell talking about it he's saying you know we're starting with the thinking about it 00:37:12.900 --> 00:37:18.680 in terms of the color version and anyway when they present it on disc one they present it with 00:37:18.820 --> 00:37:24.840 four animated episodes and the existing episode as an extra rather than you know there could be 00:37:24.840 --> 00:37:29.180 a logic in saying you present the black and white on disc one because people want to watch it with 00:37:29.200 --> 00:37:39.700 the existing episode and it's less of a kind of transition to to go through um but the the kind 00:37:39.700 --> 00:37:45.160 of thing that made me feel like there was a kind of again it's about the coherence of it and the 00:37:45.300 --> 00:37:51.360 fact that it backed up the art the other artistic choices being made within the animation of having 00:37:51.860 --> 00:37:58.520 the kind of the way the colors and the way it's drawn is that it had quite a sort of 60s comic 00:37:58.540 --> 00:38:05.780 strip feel to it yeah yeah it kind of did I quite liked I mean I could almost imagine seeing 00:38:06.620 --> 00:38:12.980 seeing it in one of the 1960s because obviously the comic strips were drawn in color and you know 00:38:13.010 --> 00:38:20.380 you could take take a frame from this put a few speech bubbles on it and it you could feel like 00:38:20.480 --> 00:38:26.260 that's where it had come from so in terms of that by the end of you know the second episode I'd 00:38:26.280 --> 00:38:31.580 watched in colour I was sort of coming around to thinking well maybe that is a better way to 00:38:31.840 --> 00:38:36.920 experience it even though I didn't feel that the the colouring job was as good as the other team 00:38:37.040 --> 00:38:45.080 were doing it still actually is adding something to the story to the sense of it to to the atmosphere 00:38:45.210 --> 00:38:52.500 to this delicate balance between creating a sense of this being a story set in the future but which 00:38:52.520 --> 00:39:01.680 was at least partially created in the 1960s so i i you know hats off in terms of that one thing that 00:39:01.740 --> 00:39:12.400 i'm going to ask about it's rhetorical mostly the end of this story has a very long comparatively 00:39:13.160 --> 00:39:20.620 intro to mission to the unknown which is such an odd duck for those who don't know mission to the 00:39:20.640 --> 00:39:29.300 unknown is a one-part story with no doctor or companions in it at all that is a lead-in to the 00:39:29.420 --> 00:39:37.240 Dalek's master plan is this is this a slavish recreation to something or should they have cut 00:39:37.240 --> 00:39:42.820 it off or are they going to do mission to the unknown someday because if they're never going 00:39:42.820 --> 00:39:49.300 to do mission you know if they do Dalek's master plan which is big about 12 parts right yeah um 00:39:49.540 --> 00:39:50.960 if they're going to do Dalek's master plan, 00:39:51.900 --> 00:39:55.700 my thought is they damn well better put Mission to the Unknown on that disc as well. 00:39:56.160 --> 00:40:00.020 Because no one's ever going to buy Mission to the Unknown on its own. 00:40:00.920 --> 00:40:03.300 Standing, no doctor, no nothing. 00:40:04.240 --> 00:40:04.780 I don't know. 00:40:04.980 --> 00:40:07.880 You know, I, this is, I normally, 00:40:08.180 --> 00:40:10.920 because a lot of them have a little bit of a tag into the next episode, 00:40:11.040 --> 00:40:11.960 and it doesn't bother me. 00:40:12.440 --> 00:40:14.440 But for some reason, this one, I'm looking at it going, 00:40:14.980 --> 00:40:16.940 I wonder if they should have just left that off. 00:40:17.480 --> 00:40:21.160 If if sure, it was part of it, but I don't know. 00:40:22.060 --> 00:40:27.360 It's interesting, isn't it, that we're kind of talking about experiencing this episode in a number of different ways. 00:40:27.620 --> 00:40:32.600 And so one of them is the story in its own right, treating this as a new work. 00:40:33.180 --> 00:40:44.980 And another is to kind of use it to infill the gaps where things have gone missing so that you can experience that you can complete an experience of some Doctor Who that you're not otherwise going to see. 00:40:45.940 --> 00:40:57.140 And the Galaxy 4 animation that we liked, you know, the previous attempt to doing the Galaxy 4 animation that we liked as at least a form of reconstruction compared to the others. 00:40:57.700 --> 00:41:02.040 It actually, in order to do that preservation, it cut a load of the audio out. 00:41:02.520 --> 00:41:07.960 And I certainly felt that was kind of quite justified in tightening up and giving you the better pacing. 00:41:09.420 --> 00:41:14.100 So there is and I mean, we also discussed it thinking about it on the Macro Terra. 00:41:14.260 --> 00:41:16.320 there's a scene cut with the rumble, 00:41:17.240 --> 00:41:18.520 it's not called the rumble tumble machine, 00:41:18.660 --> 00:41:19.940 but you know what I'm referring to. 00:41:20.160 --> 00:41:20.260 Yeah. 00:41:21.160 --> 00:41:22.020 Again, you know, 00:41:22.140 --> 00:41:23.860 they've made a choice to take something out 00:41:24.000 --> 00:41:26.220 because they thought that trying to add it in 00:41:26.420 --> 00:41:28.420 would take something away from the episode. 00:41:29.080 --> 00:41:29.460 And obviously, 00:41:30.200 --> 00:41:32.140 even just a couple of minutes of Mission to the Unknown, 00:41:32.440 --> 00:41:37.180 when you've got all of these sets for a desert planet, 00:41:37.800 --> 00:41:39.540 and then you suddenly have to animate something 00:41:39.740 --> 00:41:41.500 with a character you haven't had in a jungle, 00:41:42.200 --> 00:41:43.500 that's quite a lot of effort. 00:41:44.240 --> 00:41:50.640 for two minutes so i yeah i do totally get where you're coming from i wouldn't have objected if it 00:41:50.880 --> 00:41:57.340 wasn't on there but to me i wasn't surprised it was on there because the fact that on the previous 00:41:57.600 --> 00:42:03.420 recon they'd included it in their whatever it was 12 15 minute version of the exploding planet 00:42:03.940 --> 00:42:09.880 even though they cut out a load of the actual story was a bigger surprise so so if they're 00:42:09.900 --> 00:42:15.260 going to do that well probably they are going to do this yeah i kind of wonder you know we had four 00:42:15.920 --> 00:42:21.600 stories this year animated in in whole or in part that includes web of fear which was only 00:42:22.020 --> 00:42:28.080 the one episode but i'm not i'm not poo-pooing that that's a lot of animation for one year 00:42:28.680 --> 00:42:35.440 and i don't know something about this made me think 2022 is the year of the daleks master plan 00:42:36.500 --> 00:42:50.540 Because that would be a big one. If you include Mission to the Unknown, that's 13 episodes. That's three full animated stories worth in some in up to three full stories of animated work. 00:42:51.160 --> 00:42:54.420 So, I mean, that might be where we're going for 2022. 00:42:55.220 --> 00:43:06.820 If you're looking for clues, I did, just before we did this, I spotted that Chloe Grech, the director of this one, had done a commentary on episode four. 00:43:07.240 --> 00:43:12.000 And at the end of that, she does obviously talk about doing a bit of Mission to the Unknown. 00:43:12.960 --> 00:43:26.200 And I can't tell if this is an unguarded comment, but she does talk about how difficult she found it and whether and whether it made her think twice about putting her hand up for doing the Daleks master plan. 00:43:26.920 --> 00:43:28.920 Oh, OK. 00:43:29.620 --> 00:43:33.780 So it I mean, that suggests two things to me. 00:43:34.000 --> 00:43:39.400 Firstly, although there doesn't seem to be anything announced at this stage, we are expecting there to be more animations. 00:43:40.640 --> 00:43:49.820 And presumably the fact that she talked about it in that casual way means there have been conversations going on, as you would expect. 00:43:50.180 --> 00:43:52.420 You know, any of the missing episodes could come into this. 00:43:52.520 --> 00:44:00.980 What you know, what might we do now or what might what might we be asked to do next and how might we approach it if we were these kind of things? 00:44:01.160 --> 00:44:03.560 So that that in itself probably shouldn't be surprising. 00:44:03.700 --> 00:44:09.860 And the comment also suggests that this isn't two minutes of the next animation. 00:44:10.760 --> 00:44:15.500 this is two minutes that have been created specifically for the galaxy 4 release and 00:44:16.180 --> 00:44:22.920 if yeah you know if if if there is a daleks master plan they will probably redo those two minutes be 00:44:23.020 --> 00:44:28.440 my would be my guess although the fact that they they talk about it as being part of the daleks 00:44:28.580 --> 00:44:32.880 master plan absolutely reinforces your suggestion this would be mission mission to the unknown would 00:44:32.880 --> 00:44:39.380 be released with the the kind of main serial yeah where else would you do it it just it just doesn't 00:44:39.400 --> 00:44:44.720 make any sense but no i think it's quite right you know one one thing that just occurred to me 00:44:44.880 --> 00:44:50.920 uh the other day uh as i was eagerly anticipating this showing up it's like you know the timing of 00:44:51.020 --> 00:44:59.020 this i'm i'm i'm gonna bet that before the flux is over we're gonna see the return of the draven 00:44:59.080 --> 00:45:06.960 or the rills i think this is this is a tie-in that's what i think wow well i do i'm i have i 00:45:06.980 --> 00:45:13.100 have to say i think the chumblies are pretty cool i i would like to see more chumblies so obviously 00:45:13.300 --> 00:45:17.260 we would be the rills we would see and i think they they actually kind of think they should 00:45:17.920 --> 00:45:22.260 you know it's interesting that there's a line in this where the doctor says you know we shall never 00:45:22.420 --> 00:45:28.060 meet again and in the context of doctor who series three when the tardis goes from one place to 00:45:28.200 --> 00:45:32.620 another and no one has a clue where it's going that makes perfect sense you will never see them 00:45:32.640 --> 00:45:39.960 again because the universe and all of time is very vast yes but we know that the doctor that 00:45:40.010 --> 00:45:46.400 yeah it used to be a lot bigger and i would actually love to see them redo the real in in 00:45:46.610 --> 00:45:53.780 modern doctor who uh you know as not you know not as a villain obviously because they're not 00:45:54.370 --> 00:45:58.620 although you know in a different phase in their history maybe they were who knows but 00:45:58.640 --> 00:46:04.340 it would be an interesting throwback to the show. 00:46:04.930 --> 00:46:07.600 I don't have a lot of thoughts on the story. 00:46:07.780 --> 00:46:09.840 We talked about it before we were here. 00:46:10.030 --> 00:46:15.860 But I did think that the Draven were an interesting construct. 00:46:16.620 --> 00:46:19.740 In other words, we got quite a bit about the Draven, 00:46:19.830 --> 00:46:23.240 and yet they're not really used a lot in this. 00:46:23.690 --> 00:46:28.160 And it almost feels like they deserve a second look. 00:46:28.620 --> 00:46:35.120 at some point as well and i don't know if that's just because i'm re you know they they threw in 00:46:35.120 --> 00:46:41.980 the stuff about killing the men and and the clone beings and whatnot just to make them different or 00:46:42.100 --> 00:46:46.960 whether they had something to go on but i i kind of you know that that's one that could have gone 00:46:47.560 --> 00:46:56.060 for another another story i i i i would kind of say i don't want to see either the draven or the 00:46:56.080 --> 00:47:01.220 or the real again because partly for the reasons that i now think this is a much better 00:47:01.850 --> 00:47:06.020 a better episode and i say you know i think actually the writing in this is really nice 00:47:06.320 --> 00:47:12.140 that's i mean the in the surviving episode uh sorry in the surviving clip in the first episode 00:47:12.420 --> 00:47:16.840 was that cracking speech marga has you know if you if you were to conquer space they said you 00:47:16.840 --> 00:47:21.480 will need soldiers so here i am confronted with danger and the only one able to think and i i 00:47:21.500 --> 00:47:26.040 loved all of that but even more than that i think i loved the kind of parting speech from 00:47:26.420 --> 00:47:30.820 the the real where they said though though we are beings a separate planet you from your solar 00:47:30.980 --> 00:47:35.300 system and we from another space uh our ways at thoughts time do not seem to be all that different 00:47:35.520 --> 00:47:41.620 it has been an honor to know and serve you and they kind of although i'm sympathetic in some 00:47:41.780 --> 00:47:50.380 ways the modern way of making the monsters more nuanced it's not quite as black and white they 00:47:50.400 --> 00:47:57.620 have more complicated motivations and desires the simplicity of this story is quite appealing the 00:47:57.780 --> 00:48:04.780 fact that it is you know the real are good and the dravin are bad is kind of what makes it work 00:48:05.300 --> 00:48:12.620 and i don't want to i don't want to kind of taint that by coming back to them so i think we should 00:48:12.740 --> 00:48:20.360 i think we should have chumblies without them yeah i i it's now a cliche it was much fresher concept 00:48:20.480 --> 00:48:29.960 Exactly. And that would be why you couldn't just do, you couldn't just do it again. But it was just, it was nicely realized. It was very nicely realized, I thought. 00:48:30.400 --> 00:48:36.960 Anything else on this specifically? I want to talk a little bit about the slate of animations that we've had briefly otherwise. 00:48:37.680 --> 00:49:03.200 Well, I've got one thing, and it's not quite on this specifically, so it might be a sort of lead into what you're about to talk about, which is not only is this the first Hartnell that we've seen for a while and the first Hartnell we've seen in color, but more significantly to me, when they release these new animations, they've been using the same second Doctor title sequence, which is now in color. 00:49:03.720 --> 00:49:05.400 and we talked a bit about that when that debuted 00:49:05.900 --> 00:49:07.520 this is the first time we've seen the 00:49:07.660 --> 00:49:08.900 original title sequence 00:49:09.620 --> 00:49:11.220 in color what do you think 00:49:11.680 --> 00:49:13.400 I was bored I was 00:49:13.680 --> 00:49:15.920 disappointed I was disappointed 00:49:16.100 --> 00:49:17.080 in it I have to say 00:49:17.080 --> 00:49:19.000 you wanted more flashing 00:49:19.560 --> 00:49:21.360 you know variations of color 00:49:21.560 --> 00:49:23.420 I like the fact that they took 00:49:23.580 --> 00:49:25.280 the Troughton one 00:49:26.080 --> 00:49:27.600 and they kind of 00:49:27.820 --> 00:49:29.640 applied the logic of the 00:49:29.800 --> 00:49:31.720 Pertwee coloring 00:49:31.740 --> 00:49:32.920 with the sort of... 00:49:32.920 --> 00:49:35.400 But they can't do that for this because, you know, 00:49:35.900 --> 00:49:39.280 the Troughton and the Pertwee eras are contiguous. 00:49:39.520 --> 00:49:42.280 So you can see how you could extrapolate back 00:49:42.740 --> 00:49:44.420 into the Troughton era from that. 00:49:44.880 --> 00:49:45.740 This is too far removed. 00:49:46.440 --> 00:49:46.900 Is it? 00:49:47.040 --> 00:49:49.740 I mean, this is just the title sequence prior to the... 00:49:50.040 --> 00:49:50.580 I don't know. 00:49:50.660 --> 00:49:53.100 Well, no, because I think you see huge differences 00:49:53.360 --> 00:49:54.680 by the time you get into Tom Baker. 00:49:55.320 --> 00:49:58.680 It was very much just slap an orange gel on it and go. 00:49:59.520 --> 00:50:03.680 And maybe that's a little too little. 00:50:04.270 --> 00:50:04.780 I don't know. 00:50:05.700 --> 00:50:10.080 I've got to say, I quite liked it because it didn't do too much. 00:50:10.150 --> 00:50:12.120 I know from what Gary Russell has said about it, 00:50:12.260 --> 00:50:14.800 that they did have more colours in it and they took them out. 00:50:15.000 --> 00:50:19.080 And I feel that's good because it's such an iconic sequence. 00:50:19.940 --> 00:50:24.700 And that does come, it works incredibly well in black and white. 00:50:25.220 --> 00:50:26.440 It's not animated, is it? 00:50:26.920 --> 00:50:28.560 That's not an animated recreation. 00:50:28.600 --> 00:50:32.040 That's just the original sequence with a color filter slapped over. 00:50:32.200 --> 00:50:33.900 It's animated like the other ones are. 00:50:34.460 --> 00:50:36.700 I never, never got that. 00:50:37.400 --> 00:50:42.060 I thought that was the real thing just with a color filter slapped over it. 00:50:42.520 --> 00:50:44.020 Well, it's obviously animated rather well, 00:50:44.190 --> 00:50:47.840 but it's easy to animate something that isn't, you know, 00:50:47.940 --> 00:50:49.960 like it's not like animating a human or. 00:50:50.480 --> 00:50:50.800 Yeah. 00:50:51.350 --> 00:50:51.780 Oh, I will. 00:50:51.830 --> 00:50:52.560 I will add this. 00:50:53.880 --> 00:50:56.980 When I put this on to watch, my son was in the room, 00:50:57.020 --> 00:51:03.160 my 16 year old son was in the room and this is obviously just anecdotal, 00:51:04.419 --> 00:51:05.500 but started up, 00:51:05.950 --> 00:51:07.340 the credits came up, 00:51:07.480 --> 00:51:08.700 which were in black and white. 00:51:09.720 --> 00:51:11.420 And then once you go into the show, 00:51:11.560 --> 00:51:12.860 it's obvious it's animated. 00:51:12.950 --> 00:51:13.420 And he's like, 00:51:13.840 --> 00:51:14.340 what is this? 00:51:14.370 --> 00:51:14.680 And I go, 00:51:14.820 --> 00:51:14.880 Oh, 00:51:14.980 --> 00:51:15.280 it's a, 00:51:15.340 --> 00:51:15.560 it's a, 00:51:15.660 --> 00:51:17.400 one of the missing episodes that they've, 00:51:17.820 --> 00:51:18.620 that they've animated. 00:51:19.340 --> 00:51:19.600 So they're, 00:51:19.840 --> 00:51:20.660 they're filling in the gap. 00:51:20.840 --> 00:51:21.820 And he just looked at it. 00:51:21.820 --> 00:51:22.000 He goes, 00:51:22.520 --> 00:51:23.300 how old is it? 00:51:23.370 --> 00:51:23.660 I said, 00:51:23.740 --> 00:51:23.820 well, 00:51:23.860 --> 00:51:24.040 it's, 00:51:24.300 --> 00:51:25.940 it's from like the third season of Dr. 00:51:26.120 --> 00:51:26.280 Who. 00:51:26.940 --> 00:51:29.440 So it's from the 60s. 00:51:29.820 --> 00:51:32.400 They go, no, how old is the animation? 00:51:33.180 --> 00:51:34.040 And we go, no, it's brand new. 00:51:34.280 --> 00:51:34.460 Why? 00:51:35.080 --> 00:51:36.460 Why is it in black and white? 00:51:37.580 --> 00:51:45.960 Just utterly, utterly confounded by the notion that they would waste their time animating it in black and white. 00:51:47.120 --> 00:51:47.820 I got to see that. 00:51:47.840 --> 00:51:49.420 I don't think the black and white adds anything. 00:51:50.060 --> 00:51:55.240 I know you like the black and white ones, but I just don't see the value in it either. 00:51:56.080 --> 00:52:02.780 I'm not, I'm not as, I think the problem is the colour detracts, the black and white is better. 00:52:03.540 --> 00:52:08.840 But on the other hand, I do think the colour, as I've said, adds something else. 00:52:09.480 --> 00:52:17.160 So I'm not as kind of, quite as kind of hardcore about saying, I think they're just wasting their time doing this in colour. 00:52:17.160 --> 00:52:20.920 And obviously they're not spending time animating in black and white. 00:52:21.180 --> 00:52:26.640 They are animating it in colour and then they are creating a black and white version from that. 00:52:26.690 --> 00:52:29.640 And not that it doesn't require some effort on their part. 00:52:29.650 --> 00:52:33.420 And obviously it's different aspect ratio and there's all the work associated with that. 00:52:34.040 --> 00:52:37.660 But it's nothing like animating it completely separately in black and white. 00:52:38.220 --> 00:52:47.440 Yeah. And I kind of appreciate the fact that we have, you know, I think I've said this before, that we have the different versions of it. 00:52:47.780 --> 00:52:55.220 So we can choose what we watch and we can choose how we combine the original episode with animation, whether that's black and white or color. 00:52:56.520 --> 00:53:03.040 We've talked about this every time we do the animation and we never have the definitive answer to our fingertips. 00:53:03.100 --> 00:53:12.760 So I took the opportunity to go through the list of first, second, and third Doctor stories and write down which ones are still missing. 00:53:13.360 --> 00:53:15.340 When I say missing, missing and not animated. 00:53:15.910 --> 00:53:20.080 And which ones have been animated, including things like Web of Fear, where they only had to do one episode. 00:53:20.210 --> 00:53:21.980 That falls into the animated. 00:53:22.520 --> 00:53:30.040 Anyway, so where we stand at the moment is they have animated 12 stories and there are 14 missing ones. 00:53:30.250 --> 00:53:31.560 So we're almost halfway there. 00:53:33.180 --> 00:53:40.700 And that's if we count Mission to the Unknown as a separate story. Otherwise, we're at 12 and 13. So that's good. 00:53:42.700 --> 00:53:49.320 So that kind of suggests that the work needing to be done is the same as the work that has been done. 00:53:49.840 --> 00:53:57.880 But in fact, a lot of the stories that have already been animated are stories where they've animated just one or two episodes. 00:53:58.460 --> 00:54:04.320 Whereas the new approach, setting aside the web of fear. 00:54:04.840 --> 00:54:06.760 I hope they don't go back and reanimate. 00:54:07.280 --> 00:54:09.200 I hope they do go back and reanimate. 00:54:09.660 --> 00:54:11.140 No, not before they do the others. 00:54:11.260 --> 00:54:19.520 in its current form what i'm saying is the work that they have to do now because they have set a 00:54:19.680 --> 00:54:24.840 pattern of releases where they basically animate the entire serial and indeed the serials that 00:54:24.840 --> 00:54:29.480 are remaining are the ones with more episodes missing means that there's a lot more work still 00:54:29.540 --> 00:54:35.599 to be done than has been done already yeah well but they're also getting better at doing the work 00:54:35.620 --> 00:54:41.300 and they're probably doing the work more efficiently and quicker and certainly cheaper. 00:54:42.060 --> 00:54:46.300 So, you know, yes, there's more work, but they're getting momentum 00:54:46.410 --> 00:54:52.320 and they're getting skill sets built and, you know, practical knowledge. 00:54:52.560 --> 00:54:56.420 So anyway, so just to tick them off, season three is a mess. 00:54:57.460 --> 00:55:01.700 It's still missing Mission to the Unknown, the Myth Makers, the Daleks Master Plan, 00:55:01.860 --> 00:55:09.220 the Massacre of St. Bartholomew's Eve, the Celestial Toymaker, and the Savages. And of those, 00:55:09.920 --> 00:55:15.520 obviously it's the Daleks Master Plan and maybe the Celestial Toymaker that are the likely 00:55:16.280 --> 00:55:22.560 candidates. And everyone seems to be broken up about the Celestial Toymaker, but to me that 00:55:22.560 --> 00:55:28.720 one sounds like rubbish. But hey, I'll take it. And they've only animated Galaxy 4 in Season 3. 00:55:29.320 --> 00:55:36.400 season four which spans hartnell trouton we're only missing the smugglers the highlanders and a 00:55:36.600 --> 00:55:42.040 proper underwater menace well i think those i think those are very difficult ones to animate so 00:55:42.220 --> 00:55:48.560 i'm not expecting them anytime soon and then you know season five we're getting close abominable 00:55:48.760 --> 00:55:55.979 snowmen and wheel in space and i mean there's been talk about both of those for ages yeah i my my 00:55:56.000 --> 00:56:03.940 money is undoubtedly on season five i think season season six is possible but season five is really 00:56:04.140 --> 00:56:09.780 much more likely and the space pirates yeah is season six is the only thing missing from that 00:56:10.100 --> 00:56:17.260 so i don't have anything else i don't have anything else all right in that case we we have there is no 00:56:17.340 --> 00:56:21.479 announcement of the next animation we have no idea what it's going to be but you know whenever 00:56:21.500 --> 00:56:23.620 it comes along, we will be there. 00:56:24.580 --> 00:56:25.040 Oh, yes. 00:56:25.500 --> 00:56:26.400 Simon, thank you for joining me. 00:56:27.140 --> 00:56:27.900 It's a pleasure, as always. 00:56:28.620 --> 00:56:32.980 And listeners, I hope you'll join us all again next time on Fusion Patrol. 00:56:35.080 --> 00:56:38.960 We hope you've enjoyed listening to Fusion Patrol, a listener-supported podcast. 00:56:39.880 --> 00:56:43.960 There are over 500 previous episodes available at FusionPatrol.com. 00:56:45.020 --> 00:56:48.080 Come join the conversation on Twitter, our website, or Facebook. 00:56:49.060 --> 00:56:53.400 Find out how you can become a supporter at patreon.com slash fusion patrol. 00:56:54.520 --> 00:56:59.000 Supporters get early access to all regular episodes, bonus episodes, and more. 00:56:59.800 --> 00:57:05.200 There's even an optional podcast series where we're looking at the classic TV series Babylon 5. 00:57:06.440 --> 00:57:09.060 Our music is Fight the Future by Amber Wolf. 00:57:09.860 --> 00:57:11.720 This has been a Lone Locust production. 00:57:14.460 --> 00:57:18.440 Next time we'll be looking at two episodes of Ultra Q. 00:57:19.140 --> 00:57:23.300 with Grow Up Little Turtle and SOS, Mount Fuji. 00:57:23.960 --> 00:57:26.540 Come join the conversation at Fusion Patrol. 00:57:26.720 --> 00:57:26.880 control.