WEBVTT 00:00:10.020 --> 00:00:13.300 You're listening to Fusion Patrol, a listener-supported podcast. 00:00:14.600 --> 00:00:18.580 Each week, we take a single episode of a science fiction TV series or movie 00:00:19.100 --> 00:00:22.360 and overanalyze it to within an inch of its life. 00:00:23.000 --> 00:00:24.160 Welcome to the discussion. 00:00:29.180 --> 00:00:32.540 Hello and welcome to another episode of Fusion Patrol. I'm Eugene. 00:00:33.260 --> 00:00:33.820 And I'm Simon. 00:00:34.580 --> 00:00:39.440 And tonight we're looking at another one of our special animated recreation Doctor Who missing episodes. 00:00:40.020 --> 00:00:42.880 Stories this time, Evil of the Daleks. 00:00:44.719 --> 00:00:49.680 Patrick Troughton episode. We'll do the synopsis first and we'll talk about it. 00:00:50.020 --> 00:00:52.560 The TARDIS has been taken from Gatwick Airport on a lorry. 00:00:53.220 --> 00:00:58.820 The Doctor and Jamie chase the lorry as fast as possible with their lurching, awkward running strides, 00:00:59.480 --> 00:01:01.940 but eventually must give up on the foot chase. 00:01:02.660 --> 00:01:05.800 Instead, they conduct an investigation to find the TARDIS. 00:01:06.320 --> 00:01:10.700 Little do they know, they are being given a series of increasingly unlikely clues 00:01:11.080 --> 00:01:16.280 designed to lead them inexorably to an antique shop run by a Mr. Edward Waterfield, 00:01:16.550 --> 00:01:19.940 who specializes in really high-quality Victoriana. 00:01:20.600 --> 00:01:23.420 Waterfield is a Victorian with a time machine. 00:01:23.970 --> 00:01:27.080 He is also in the employ of the Daleks. 00:01:27.660 --> 00:01:30.860 As his final clue to lure the doctor and Jamie to his shop, 00:01:31.150 --> 00:01:34.680 he sends them an actual invitation to his shop. 00:01:35.140 --> 00:01:37.220 When they arrive, rather than meet with them, 00:01:37.560 --> 00:01:41.300 he lays further clues and traps to knock them unconscious 00:01:41.720 --> 00:01:44.800 and transport them back to June 1866, 00:01:45.600 --> 00:01:49.540 somewhere near Canterbury and the home of Mr. Theodore Maxtable. 00:01:50.120 --> 00:01:52.740 Maxstable is a wealthy man and dabbler in sciences. 00:01:53.260 --> 00:01:56.420 He has hired Waterfield to help him build a time machine. 00:01:56.920 --> 00:02:01.540 They succeeded after a fashion, but their experiment brought Daleks to Earth. 00:02:01.960 --> 00:02:07.160 The Daleks took Waterfield's daughter Victoria captive and forced the men to help them trap the Doctor. 00:02:07.680 --> 00:02:12.340 With Victoria's life on the line, now the Doctor is coerced into helping the Daleks too. 00:02:12.840 --> 00:02:15.640 They want him to isolate the human factor, 00:02:16.080 --> 00:02:22.800 the collection of emotions and properties that humans possess that has allowed them to consistently beat the Daleks. 00:02:23.340 --> 00:02:27.540 The Doctor agrees, and the Daleks insist that Jamie will be the test subject. 00:02:28.300 --> 00:02:30.240 Jamie must attempt to rescue Victoria Waterfield, 00:02:30.800 --> 00:02:35.820 all while the Doctor and the others are watching and identifying the human factor in Jamie. 00:02:36.400 --> 00:02:40.879 Also, a man named Arthur Terrell, who is Maximal's daughter's fiancé, 00:02:41.780 --> 00:02:47.980 is around, behaving erratically, and apparently also under control of the Daleks. He pops up 00:02:48.160 --> 00:02:54.520 occasionally to make things move along or slow down as fits the demands of the episodes. A mute 00:02:54.740 --> 00:03:00.280 Turk named Kemmel, who is kindly disposed towards Victoria, is tasked with stopping Jamie from 00:03:00.460 --> 00:03:06.520 reaching her. When Jamie saves his life, they team up to save Victoria, which they sort of do, 00:03:07.120 --> 00:03:09.820 But Victoria is recaptured and taken to Scarra. 00:03:10.250 --> 00:03:13.900 It has become clear that Maxtable, despite his attempts to appear innocent, 00:03:14.260 --> 00:03:17.120 is fully complicit with the Daleks and their actions. 00:03:17.940 --> 00:03:21.380 They have promised him the secret of turning metal into gold. 00:03:21.960 --> 00:03:26.640 Absolutely no one except Maxtable believes they will keep that promise. 00:03:27.360 --> 00:03:31.460 The Doctor isolates the human factor and installs it into three newborn Daleks. 00:03:31.800 --> 00:03:36.020 When they awaken, they have a sense of fun and friendship with the Doctor. 00:03:36.620 --> 00:03:39.200 He names them Alpha, Beta, and Omega. 00:03:39.900 --> 00:03:42.280 All Daleks are recalled to Scarrow, including the new ones, 00:03:42.660 --> 00:03:45.780 and a bomb is left behind to destroy Maxtable's house. 00:03:46.280 --> 00:03:48.940 Maxtable follows the Doctor's to Scarrow via the time closet, 00:03:49.460 --> 00:03:51.120 leaving the others behind to die. 00:03:51.640 --> 00:03:55.800 The Doctor, Jamie, and Waterfield escape in the Dalek time machine and head to Scarrow. 00:03:56.300 --> 00:03:58.340 They're all captured and put in a cell. 00:03:58.900 --> 00:04:02.020 The Doctor is given an audience with the Emperor Dalek. 00:04:02.360 --> 00:04:05.139 The Doctor explains that he has destroyed the Daleks 00:04:05.160 --> 00:04:07.740 by introducing the human factor into the test Daleks. 00:04:08.260 --> 00:04:11.720 They will question orders and it will spread to other Daleks. 00:04:12.200 --> 00:04:13.840 Soon, they will be destroyed. 00:04:14.300 --> 00:04:15.540 The Doctor has been fooled. 00:04:15.960 --> 00:04:18.660 While the point of his work was to isolate the human factor, 00:04:19.299 --> 00:04:23.120 somehow that also means he isolated the Dalek factor. 00:04:23.720 --> 00:04:26.720 Now, with the Doctor's TARDIS secured on Scarrow, 00:04:27.160 --> 00:04:32.000 he will help them spread the Dalek factor to all humans through Earth's history. 00:04:32.700 --> 00:04:36.440 Maxtable is the guinea pig, and he is turned into a human Dalek. 00:04:36.790 --> 00:04:38.080 The Doctor is next. 00:04:38.330 --> 00:04:43.060 However, as he is not human, he is immune, but plays along as a ruse. 00:04:43.600 --> 00:04:48.160 With a death swap of positronic brains and the right word in the Dalek Emperor's ear, 00:04:48.430 --> 00:04:53.180 the Doctor tricks them into sending more Daleks into the device that will insert the Dalek factor. 00:04:53.620 --> 00:04:56.920 But it is now actually inserting the human factor. 00:04:57.520 --> 00:04:59.120 Dalek's civil war breaks out. 00:04:59.700 --> 00:05:04.560 Waterfield, who has been increasingly upset by the things the Daleks have forced him to be complicit with, 00:05:05.180 --> 00:05:07.340 sacrifices his life to save the Doctor. 00:05:07.850 --> 00:05:10.300 With everyone else dead and Skaro being destroyed, 00:05:10.760 --> 00:05:15.420 the Doctor and Jamie take the orphan Victoria in, and she joins the TARDIS crew. 00:05:16.020 --> 00:05:20.060 Oh, we are so close, Simon. We are so close to having the entirety of this season. 00:05:22.100 --> 00:05:22.380 Well. 00:05:23.260 --> 00:05:26.480 Well, it's just the Highlanders and redoing Underwater Menace properly, right? 00:05:27.040 --> 00:05:27.440 Smugglers. 00:05:28.120 --> 00:05:29.280 Is the Smugglers in season four? 00:05:30.020 --> 00:05:35.700 yeah it is it's episode it's uh first cereal i thought the first cereal was power of the daleks 00:05:36.280 --> 00:05:41.700 no oh you're talking about the ones from the the the that's a that's a heartnell isn't it 00:05:42.080 --> 00:05:46.920 yeah no and then and then you've got it and then 10th planet yeah right i guess that counts but 00:05:46.920 --> 00:05:52.019 they won't sell that as a box set they'll start with uh power of the daleks so oh no no no no no 00:05:52.040 --> 00:05:54.740 They will sell it as a box set. 00:05:56.460 --> 00:06:01.520 I tell you what, though, thinking about getting this season completed, 00:06:03.080 --> 00:06:08.200 it's quite an interesting season because we don't have any of the serials complete. 00:06:09.160 --> 00:06:15.620 And yet, as you allude to, we've now had animations of quite a lot of them. 00:06:16.540 --> 00:06:27.960 And one of the things I was thinking about, you know, in terms of reviewing this for the podcast, was how little I have to say about the animation in this. 00:06:28.100 --> 00:06:28.400 Me too. 00:06:28.540 --> 00:06:34.200 Because of the fact that it is essentially identical to the animation in the Faceless Ones. 00:06:34.200 --> 00:06:46.100 I don't have any particular information about how they did this, but it would not surprise me in the least if they had just sat down as soon as they'd finished the Faceless Ones and just carried on through the evil of the Daleks. 00:06:46.280 --> 00:06:53.780 I mean, obviously, there are some additional models and things to produce, but the style and everything is so strikingly similar. 00:06:54.659 --> 00:07:01.280 And in a way, that's terribly good because there's a big continuity between the stories. 00:07:01.980 --> 00:07:08.700 And there's something nice about the fact that Macro Terra, yeah, there are some more noticeable differences there. 00:07:08.740 --> 00:07:12.400 But it's a block of stories where you can just sit down and watch them. 00:07:12.600 --> 00:07:19.520 And because they've animated the whole serial, you can just sit down and watch the whole thing animated in the same style. 00:07:19.550 --> 00:07:36.120 And it's almost, almost making me wish that in addition to, you know, as you say, doing the Highlanders and Smugglers and, of course, most importantly, the Underwater Menace, the best serials of the season. 00:07:37.360 --> 00:07:43.740 I wish they would also go back and do the moon base, 00:07:43.830 --> 00:07:45.700 even though I love the animation in that, 00:07:46.280 --> 00:07:49.020 and Tenth Planet, which much less. 00:07:50.620 --> 00:07:54.420 Because if they did the whole serial and they did it in the same style, 00:07:54.490 --> 00:07:57.120 it'd be like you could watch the whole of season four 00:07:58.170 --> 00:08:00.860 and there'd be a kind of coherence to it. 00:08:01.000 --> 00:08:04.660 Although I have to say, actually, taking a quick peek at the power of the Daleks, 00:08:04.760 --> 00:08:06.420 it's not that similar. 00:08:07.280 --> 00:08:14.420 it's it's obviously the same you know it's the there's a continuity between the that being the 00:08:14.500 --> 00:08:20.220 kind of charles norton directed one and these other anne-marie walsh ones because she worked 00:08:20.280 --> 00:08:25.340 on all four of them well i want to quote something out of my notes here that i that i would have 00:08:25.560 --> 00:08:30.919 paraphrased but i'll just read it word for word quote i've reached the point where i can just 00:08:30.940 --> 00:08:40.120 ignore the animation unless it jars and that is followed by um the sentence the running oh god 00:08:40.120 --> 00:08:47.780 the running but apart from that apart from that i just when i was watching the animation it's like 00:08:47.940 --> 00:08:53.340 you know something i got nothing to say this is perfectly acceptable and there are a couple places 00:08:53.420 --> 00:08:56.460 where I really quite like what they did. 00:08:57.960 --> 00:09:01.500 And I did watch, of the seven, 00:09:01.610 --> 00:09:03.540 I watched five of the seven in color. 00:09:04.060 --> 00:09:07.840 I watched the existing episode two, I believe, 00:09:08.800 --> 00:09:12.280 as it originally aired in the human version. 00:09:12.690 --> 00:09:15.020 And I watched one black and white episode 00:09:15.380 --> 00:09:16.600 just to get the whole thing. 00:09:17.100 --> 00:09:21.859 And the thing that I noticed most about the color episodes 00:09:21.860 --> 00:09:25.320 is that I really got a hammer horror vibe off this thing. 00:09:25.820 --> 00:09:27.100 Yeah, I can see that. 00:09:28.220 --> 00:09:29.900 And I love that. 00:09:30.660 --> 00:09:32.640 Now, of course, it's set in a Victorian house. 00:09:32.960 --> 00:09:36.320 So therefore, sure, that's what I think of 00:09:36.320 --> 00:09:38.720 when I think of Victorian stuff in Britain anyway, 00:09:39.040 --> 00:09:41.920 is that you've got that beautiful, sumptuous color 00:09:42.340 --> 00:09:46.160 and the sweeping widescreen hammer. 00:09:46.580 --> 00:09:50.020 And even the dust motes in the sky, in the air, 00:09:50.520 --> 00:09:55.220 were kind of, it's like, that's a little arty, but it works. 00:09:55.800 --> 00:09:57.520 It works because they've really gone, 00:09:58.280 --> 00:10:04.400 they've really gone with trying to play up the bright, sunny Victorian era 00:10:05.160 --> 00:10:07.440 down to, and they may have done this in the original, 00:10:08.040 --> 00:10:10.520 down to the fact that in the very opening scenes 00:10:10.590 --> 00:10:13.200 when the Doctor and Jamie wake up in 1866, 00:10:13.860 --> 00:10:15.280 all the birds are chirping, 00:10:16.020 --> 00:10:19.780 and it's obviously meant to be bright, sunny, lovely day. 00:10:20.360 --> 00:10:21.340 And they get that. 00:10:21.640 --> 00:10:27.380 I think they managed to achieve that in the animation and in the presentation. 00:10:27.760 --> 00:10:29.080 And I like it. 00:10:29.440 --> 00:10:34.460 I'm not enthused enough about it to say, sure, they should go back and redo the others. 00:10:35.519 --> 00:10:38.020 Because I got lots of other stories I want to see. 00:10:39.720 --> 00:10:42.260 But I get what you're saying. 00:10:42.420 --> 00:10:43.920 I mean, if it had a consistent style. 00:10:44.540 --> 00:10:45.740 But I'll put it this way. 00:10:46.040 --> 00:10:49.960 You know what's not consistent between this one and the last one, as far as I can tell? 00:10:50.500 --> 00:10:57.400 or as i can remember the music you know well no that's true so the stories are not necessarily 00:10:58.360 --> 00:11:04.100 stylistically the same from one to the next anyway so i can i can deal with it i can deal 00:11:04.110 --> 00:11:10.600 with the animation oh yeah yeah yeah no i i mean i so i i can deal with it and it won't it won't 00:11:10.760 --> 00:11:17.979 surprise me if we do end up with new animations of things that have been animated before and i 00:11:18.000 --> 00:11:23.640 don't want i don't want to suggest i'm itching for it i don't want i don't want to to give the 00:11:23.720 --> 00:11:30.140 impression that this is my top priority over as you say getting some of the other stories animated 00:11:30.340 --> 00:11:36.080 or whatever but it's just the fact that we've got this block now i think you can sort of sit down 00:11:36.120 --> 00:11:44.939 and watch macro faceless ones and evil in a row with the same visual animation style and that in 00:11:44.960 --> 00:11:51.840 a way that that kind of helps it disappear it it it makes me think because i've i've for a while i 00:11:51.900 --> 00:11:57.740 think i've mentioned this as well before that that i won't be surprised if they come back to animating 00:11:58.060 --> 00:12:03.880 some of the same stuff again purely because what they can do for the money is getting better and 00:12:04.000 --> 00:12:09.440 better all of the time and so it will reach a point where they will go oh well we can do far 00:12:09.560 --> 00:12:14.920 better than this but not only that because of the affordability of it you might then look at 00:12:15.280 --> 00:12:22.580 well there is merit in animating a whole season with the same animation house and the same 00:12:23.400 --> 00:12:29.920 animation style for this reason and I and it's it I mean it's just something I've been thinking 00:12:30.120 --> 00:12:35.480 while I've been out on the beach and out walking around you know it because because I know that I 00:12:35.580 --> 00:12:40.940 know that they will be thinking about this kind of stuff do I do I think there is a value in that 00:12:40.960 --> 00:12:45.140 and I'm not sure I do place a lot by it for some of the reasons that you've just said. 00:12:46.120 --> 00:12:53.660 But it's just interesting watching this serial as the third in this kind of trilogy 00:12:54.400 --> 00:12:56.920 where there is this kind of coherent feel to it. 00:12:56.920 --> 00:13:01.220 It is the first time where I've actually thought, quite like that, yeah. 00:13:01.680 --> 00:13:05.780 Whereas previously I'd have gone, don't really care, like you just suggested. 00:13:07.640 --> 00:13:10.660 And I'm not saying it's a big thing for me yet. 00:13:10.720 --> 00:13:12.640 It's just that's interesting. 00:13:13.300 --> 00:13:17.220 Yeah, eventually they'll probably be able to do this so cheaply. 00:13:17.380 --> 00:13:18.400 It's not funny. 00:13:18.700 --> 00:13:24.000 But whether or not they'll have built me out of a few more Blu-ray box sets before then is another story. 00:13:24.840 --> 00:13:36.400 Well, yes, of course, that is the thing, because every every time it gets released on Blu-ray, of course, it will have to include every previous version because we Doctor Who fans are absolutely completist. 00:13:36.710 --> 00:13:40.460 And well, wouldn't it be nice if they released them on Blu-ray over in the United States? 00:13:41.860 --> 00:13:48.680 they don't even release these animated ones over here and in blu-ray only dvd but but eventually 00:13:48.680 --> 00:13:55.880 a box set maybe yeah yeah so i mean in terms of the animation i i don't think there is a lot 00:13:56.580 --> 00:14:05.560 um to add to the the the kind of criticisms and and i mean criticisms both good and bad that i made 00:14:06.120 --> 00:14:10.840 in the faceless ones I agree with you there's a kind of artiness of this shines through 00:14:11.480 --> 00:14:16.760 it's there's a there's a quality to it now where I think I particularly think that they've got the 00:14:16.910 --> 00:14:22.460 measure of the limitations of what they can do and that makes the whole thing just feel a lot 00:14:22.580 --> 00:14:29.640 more solid they're really there's a there's a confidence to producing something that does look 00:14:29.660 --> 00:14:35.960 good and part of that is is the artiness um the the criticism that you make about the motion is 00:14:36.080 --> 00:14:41.600 something that i banged on about in the faceless ones the only reason i might think it's worth 00:14:41.690 --> 00:14:48.920 coming back to now is because since then we've had a little chat about the um web of fear where 00:14:49.780 --> 00:14:54.900 the motion is very very different and i i've kind of looked back i mean since we recorded on the web 00:14:54.920 --> 00:15:00.380 of Fear it I've I've kind of read a few what a few other people have commented about the animation 00:15:00.720 --> 00:15:06.140 quality and I kind of alluded to the fact there's a bit of a split between people who like the 00:15:06.280 --> 00:15:10.840 animation and people who don't but that I think that may have been slightly overstating it it's 00:15:10.980 --> 00:15:17.880 basically a split between me and everyone else because I'm having difficulty finding anyone else 00:15:17.960 --> 00:15:22.840 who likes the animation and yet when I went to have a look back at the web of fear to sort of 00:15:22.860 --> 00:15:28.040 compare the quality of the motion in that and the and the quality in this there are different 00:15:28.280 --> 00:15:35.120 qualities about it so i i do aesthetically it's just a lot more pleasing watching evil of the 00:15:35.260 --> 00:15:42.360 daleks it's it's it's more take any still frame from it and it's just it's more nicely drawn it's 00:15:42.360 --> 00:15:52.820 more nicely done and yet there are still sequences in it where you have kind of victoria blinks 00:15:52.840 --> 00:15:59.680 and stares and they're obviously just holding the camera on her because they have no clue what's 00:15:59.720 --> 00:16:04.660 happening they've got well they've got that they've got that much of the soundtrack to to kind of fill 00:16:04.800 --> 00:16:12.340 in and then you know kemel blinks back at her and stares at her and it is one of those situations 00:16:12.460 --> 00:16:15.780 where i think well actually what you need to do is you need to couple of cut a couple of seconds 00:16:15.990 --> 00:16:22.260 silence as the soundtrack and tighten this up but in the web of fear they would have had the benefit 00:16:22.280 --> 00:16:26.140 of being able to use a bit of the movement, 00:16:26.210 --> 00:16:29.240 of the body language to actually represent 00:16:29.390 --> 00:16:31.480 that nonverbal communication on screen 00:16:31.610 --> 00:16:32.640 in a more effective way. 00:16:33.120 --> 00:16:34.400 And looking back at the Web of Fear, 00:16:34.450 --> 00:16:37.200 I can completely see why the kind of, 00:16:37.620 --> 00:16:38.960 the fact that everyone looks like 00:16:38.970 --> 00:16:40.740 they have had way too much caffeine 00:16:41.340 --> 00:16:43.060 is alienating to some people. 00:16:43.780 --> 00:16:48.540 But I still like that very, I appreciate that. 00:16:49.080 --> 00:16:50.880 And I appreciate both styles, 00:16:51.060 --> 00:17:03.760 But I do appreciate that ability to communicate through the whole body movement that you just really, really don't get in these in these Norton and Walsh animations. 00:17:04.660 --> 00:17:09.400 I, you know, I've watched the Web of Fear again since we recorded. 00:17:09.819 --> 00:17:18.360 And what it reminds me of the most is say there's a certain amount of the actors have been told to move more than they should. 00:17:18.579 --> 00:17:20.740 Or maybe it's just being translated in the animation. 00:17:20.930 --> 00:17:25.819 So there does seem to be that sort of, I can't keep still. 00:17:26.500 --> 00:17:30.020 And even though humans aren't perfectly still, these people do. 00:17:30.340 --> 00:17:31.820 Caffeinated is a really good way. 00:17:32.090 --> 00:17:37.200 But it also reminds me of early 90s. 00:17:37.320 --> 00:17:38.140 Let's go 90s. 00:17:38.640 --> 00:17:41.200 The first wave of computer-generated characters. 00:17:42.200 --> 00:17:50.400 where they just, even though they made them move more than they would have been able to in standard animation, 00:17:51.040 --> 00:17:54.120 I think is a way to say, look at the cool thing we can now do. 00:17:54.840 --> 00:17:59.760 And yet, because of the way they're rigged, they still don't look natural. 00:18:00.360 --> 00:18:09.040 And I think that's part of it in the web of fear, that there's still not enough articulation points, maybe. 00:18:09.800 --> 00:18:10.740 I don't really know. 00:18:11.420 --> 00:18:12.800 There's one motion I can... 00:18:12.800 --> 00:18:13.340 I think that's true. 00:18:13.780 --> 00:18:18.480 I think there's still a motion with a brigadier I can still see in my head every time with him, 00:18:19.060 --> 00:18:23.340 with a crop and a leg and just something about the... 00:18:24.740 --> 00:18:28.320 It's exactly what he would do, but it's not how you would do it, 00:18:28.960 --> 00:18:30.800 or how anyone would do it, I should say. 00:18:31.740 --> 00:18:34.480 And I think that it's the uncanny valley, almost, maybe. 00:18:35.000 --> 00:18:35.540 Yeah, yeah. 00:18:36.160 --> 00:18:38.060 Because I don't think there's any doubt about it. 00:18:38.180 --> 00:18:41.640 It's the kind of early generation for that style of animation, 00:18:41.980 --> 00:18:45.520 whereas what we're looking at with evil is the fourth iteration 00:18:45.740 --> 00:18:46.980 of them getting this right. 00:18:47.360 --> 00:18:49.680 Well, the fourth iteration of them trying it, 00:18:50.120 --> 00:18:51.520 and they are now getting it right. 00:18:52.659 --> 00:18:57.300 And the kind of, because obviously it's a totally different thing. 00:18:57.380 --> 00:19:01.520 They are not getting actors to make these motions 00:19:01.780 --> 00:19:06.960 because actually all of the humans in this are two-dimensional animations. 00:19:07.840 --> 00:19:12.780 And what they're getting right now, which I did find jarring with Power of the Daleks, 00:19:12.800 --> 00:19:19.180 and I still think when I go back and look at it, it looks a bit jarring, is that mix of 2D and 3D. 00:19:19.900 --> 00:19:23.000 I think it's quite an odd thing to have tried. 00:19:23.820 --> 00:19:30.220 And it is kind of now paying off, I think, because it does look pretty good here. 00:19:30.240 --> 00:19:32.020 It looks much more natural. 00:19:32.060 --> 00:19:36.980 I think they're understanding the limitations of it and they're finding ways of blending it more. 00:19:37.120 --> 00:19:39.920 But obviously, you particularly notice it. 00:19:40.110 --> 00:19:48.840 I think the reason this episode is a good comparison to look at against the first one that these guys did, 00:19:48.840 --> 00:19:56.640 the power of the Daleks, is because the Daleks are taking full advantage of being 3D models. 00:19:57.070 --> 00:20:03.480 You know, they have this incredibly smooth, complete 360 degree motion. 00:20:04.080 --> 00:20:08.680 And when a Dalek rotates its eyestalk, it actually rotates. 00:20:08.790 --> 00:20:10.880 And indeed, that would look very strange if it didn't. 00:20:11.380 --> 00:20:14.580 But when one of the human characters rotates, 00:20:15.040 --> 00:20:18.600 they go from full face to three quarters in an instant. 00:20:19.160 --> 00:20:22.160 And there's no kind of in-betweening. 00:20:24.040 --> 00:20:28.760 And it jarred a lot, that kind of discrepancy in Power of the Daleks. 00:20:29.260 --> 00:20:30.080 And it doesn't now. 00:20:30.540 --> 00:20:32.600 And whatever they've done, they've made it look right. 00:20:33.120 --> 00:20:35.100 Have you seen the remade Power of the Daleks? 00:20:36.100 --> 00:20:36.840 No, I haven't. 00:20:36.850 --> 00:20:40.200 I was just thinking about that, you know, 00:20:40.210 --> 00:20:45.060 in terms of it being the one animation that we haven't reviewed, 00:20:47.030 --> 00:20:49.920 just, you know, because we'd actually done Power of the Daleks twice, 00:20:50.070 --> 00:20:53.220 and I'm not sure how different it actually is. 00:20:54.559 --> 00:20:56.900 Although reading some of the reviews of that, 00:20:56.930 --> 00:21:01.759 I think one of the things that they obviously did go back to do 00:21:01.780 --> 00:21:05.140 was take out things where they had overstretched themselves, 00:21:05.520 --> 00:21:09.540 where they had, through the subsequent animations they'd done, 00:21:10.080 --> 00:21:11.580 realised some of their limitations. 00:21:11.880 --> 00:21:14.660 So I'm thinking of the doctor's checked trousers, 00:21:14.700 --> 00:21:16.340 and I think they actually made a cut 00:21:17.240 --> 00:21:19.680 where there was something that they didn't think 00:21:19.760 --> 00:21:21.540 the animation was up to scratch, 00:21:21.680 --> 00:21:23.360 so they just chopped it out of the episode. 00:21:23.740 --> 00:21:27.620 A bit like the tumble machine in Macro Terror. 00:21:28.100 --> 00:21:29.360 Yeah, I'm still upset about that. 00:21:29.780 --> 00:21:29.960 Okay. 00:21:30.360 --> 00:21:35.820 Well, but I'm not. I'm not because I mean, I was more upset about Polly's hair. 00:21:35.880 --> 00:21:54.780 I kind of think that what makes these episodes satisfying to watch, more satisfying to watch now than they were when they started doing this stuff with power is that they are operating more within the limitations of what is possible under the constraints they're operating under. 00:21:55.480 --> 00:21:58.400 And I prefer that. 00:21:59.300 --> 00:22:04.760 you know right right right from the beginning the fact that the invasion looked really really good 00:22:04.980 --> 00:22:10.700 was because you had really experienced animators who were doing something that they were very very 00:22:11.420 --> 00:22:19.800 comfortable with and yeah it was basic but it was just really really artistic and I feel like we're 00:22:19.880 --> 00:22:26.599 getting more into that territory now with these guys doing doing this series I'm not I'm not quite 00:22:26.620 --> 00:22:33.740 sure where they're going to go next um underwater menace one hopes but uh it's good i take it they're 00:22:33.740 --> 00:22:41.280 not doing galaxy four no that's another big finish one okay um i you know really expected based on my 00:22:41.440 --> 00:22:46.600 thoughts on this animation that we would save that for the last and and and not have much to say about 00:22:46.600 --> 00:22:51.559 it but obviously we've we've had some time i've got a couple points i'll just throw them out here 00:22:51.900 --> 00:22:58.920 for short things. One, kudos to them for actually reasonably successfully dealing 00:22:59.470 --> 00:23:09.700 with a character who is mute. Yeah. That tough call on that one. When you're animating a soundtrack, 00:23:10.100 --> 00:23:16.540 you think, that's bold, but all right. It kind of worked. There was a couple spots there where 00:23:16.620 --> 00:23:19.800 you're just like, yeah, I don't think that's what he was doing, but okay. My interpretation. 00:23:21.000 --> 00:23:27.240 And one in the, you know, don't do something that the animation doesn't support kind of thing. 00:23:28.160 --> 00:23:36.980 And we could make the same argument that says you don't do things, you don't make things in certain colors when you know you're shooting in black and white, for example. 00:23:37.620 --> 00:23:42.480 So that you get, you know, you have to work on the limitations of your medium. 00:23:43.360 --> 00:23:46.220 And you have to work with the limitations of the medium in the animation. 00:23:46.540 --> 00:23:56.680 one of the limitations of the medium is the trickleur was hideous in this uh it's like yeah 00:23:57.200 --> 00:24:00.720 i mean maybe that's what it looked like when they were shooting it in black and white but 00:24:01.200 --> 00:24:09.960 no that's just awful just ah didn't like it i i see it i've been critical of of the coloring 00:24:10.680 --> 00:24:17.740 I have tended to prefer to watch these things in black I kind of feel like this totally goes 00:24:17.940 --> 00:24:21.900 against me saying this is a completely separate work of art but I've been I guess it's because 00:24:22.120 --> 00:24:29.720 when you're watching one episode that has survived and I am glad that episode two has survived 00:24:29.900 --> 00:24:35.999 because it's the first appearance of Victoria and all that but it feels like it fits better 00:24:36.020 --> 00:24:41.220 with watching black and white 4.3 than watching colour widescreen. 00:24:41.280 --> 00:24:46.680 And yet, actually, I did watch quite a lot of this one in colour widescreen. 00:24:46.700 --> 00:24:48.400 I am warming to it. 00:24:48.440 --> 00:24:51.780 I think that in terms of the colouring, kudos to Adrian Salmon. 00:24:51.880 --> 00:24:55.140 He has done generally a really good job. 00:24:55.480 --> 00:24:59.200 I think the tricolour was probably pretty hideous. 00:25:00.500 --> 00:25:03.100 The whole thing with the big face of the model, 00:25:03.600 --> 00:25:07.580 That comes directly from Chris Thompson's original design, apparently. 00:25:08.270 --> 00:25:19.300 So I think that criticism may be one that is more for the design of the original than for the realization in the animation. 00:25:19.430 --> 00:25:27.740 If you're going to be altering it, for example, removing the tumble machine for the animation, it's hideous. 00:25:27.830 --> 00:25:30.120 I mean, it is hideous in color. 00:25:31.260 --> 00:25:33.460 Yeah, so they could have toned it. 00:25:33.500 --> 00:25:41.200 or something it's like but and all right and they and they did they did um they did make changes 00:25:41.500 --> 00:25:49.460 which i i don't know i found one change really really odd um and i i did not um watch a lot of 00:25:49.620 --> 00:25:56.000 the the kind of telesnap stuff to look for all of the changes and i've alluded to the fact that they 00:25:56.460 --> 00:26:02.299 they haven't bothered with the doctor's check trousers or whatever but they put kennedy in a 00:26:02.320 --> 00:26:07.540 in a jacket and tie and it fitted with his character really well it's this you know the 00:26:07.660 --> 00:26:13.020 kind of oh yeah but he's i did see he was in a sweater or something yeah he's in a as soon as 00:26:13.020 --> 00:26:19.360 you cut to the real thing in episode two he's in a polo neck uh which also kind of kind of fits but 00:26:19.360 --> 00:26:27.919 it totally changes um and so and so yeah i watched both both i did notice that it's absolutely they 00:26:27.940 --> 00:26:37.080 They have made a choice. They have decided to add in in the animation this costume that I guess they think fits with his character better than the real costume. 00:26:37.660 --> 00:26:40.820 Because I can't imagine that. I mean, I don't know anything about it. 00:26:40.820 --> 00:26:49.120 But animating a jacket with a tie is any easier than animating a plain polo neck, is it? 00:26:50.240 --> 00:26:53.520 Yeah, I don't know. I did notice that, though. I did notice that change. 00:26:54.540 --> 00:26:58.720 It was kind of strange, but it didn't bother me. 00:26:59.010 --> 00:27:05.660 You know, when I when I put them all on the Plex server, they will end up just being the color widescreen versions for watching. 00:27:06.070 --> 00:27:09.400 And the others will be relegated to sitting on the shelf on the on the Blu-ray. 00:27:10.100 --> 00:27:14.000 So for archival purposes, you know, I'll watch that someday. 00:27:14.140 --> 00:27:15.560 But all right. 00:27:15.650 --> 00:27:20.920 Well, let's let's turn our attention to the actual evil of the Daleks, which I. 00:27:21.260 --> 00:27:21.640 Yes, indeed. 00:27:22.100 --> 00:27:25.980 I don't know. Was that ever released on a target novelization? 00:27:26.560 --> 00:27:32.740 If so, I've read it. If not, I haven't read it and only know about it from vague episode guides. 00:27:33.320 --> 00:27:37.780 So the whole thing was very fresh and new to me. 00:27:38.900 --> 00:27:48.960 I knew that it was originally designed to be the final at last, finally, finally, finally get rid of the Daleks forever. 00:27:52.980 --> 00:27:57.880 again is this again i thought this was the last final well i guess in the the original 00:27:58.120 --> 00:28:03.300 or the first final um yeah the first yeah the first episode it was a one and done and then 00:28:03.460 --> 00:28:08.940 from that point on they've been it yes it feels like there is a there is a kind of 00:28:09.380 --> 00:28:13.979 final defeat in every episode but the difference here would be what was going on behind the scenes 00:28:14.000 --> 00:28:17.640 in terms of Terry Nation trying to spin it off, 00:28:18.420 --> 00:28:20.560 you know, give the Daleks their own series 00:28:20.700 --> 00:28:24.280 and then sort of deciding he couldn't have that, 00:28:24.280 --> 00:28:25.940 he didn't want to write any more Daleks. 00:28:25.960 --> 00:28:28.200 Yeah, so that's the interesting part. 00:28:28.300 --> 00:28:30.660 I have always heard that Terry Nation 00:28:30.880 --> 00:28:33.460 was trying to spin it off from Doctor Who 00:28:33.780 --> 00:28:37.260 and that's why this was written to end them. 00:28:37.800 --> 00:28:39.800 But this is the first time I've ever heard 00:28:40.260 --> 00:28:43.960 that he got soundly rejected about spinning it off 00:28:43.980 --> 00:28:46.660 And this was basically kind of a snit. 00:28:47.120 --> 00:28:49.240 Like, all right, fine, I don't want to write any more Dalek stories. 00:28:52.440 --> 00:28:56.040 That's a completely different take on what I had heard on this over the years. 00:28:56.660 --> 00:29:01.480 Anyway, so as a Dalek story, what did you think of this one? 00:29:01.780 --> 00:29:07.780 I thought, well, let me first of all say it's an interesting story, 00:29:08.240 --> 00:29:13.900 partly because of the obvious influence it has had down the line. 00:29:14.290 --> 00:29:16.440 Well, to me, what seems like this, 00:29:16.530 --> 00:29:21.280 it seems like it's influenced later Doctor Who in a couple of ways 00:29:21.860 --> 00:29:23.120 that I will come back to. 00:29:23.130 --> 00:29:28.500 But just, yeah, just in terms of how it works as a Dalek story. 00:29:30.040 --> 00:29:31.440 Yeah, I think it's pretty terrible. 00:29:31.920 --> 00:29:33.900 Pretty terrible, even for a Dalek story. 00:29:35.360 --> 00:29:36.360 It is ridiculous. 00:29:37.160 --> 00:29:39.940 I found myself, I enjoyed it. 00:29:40.100 --> 00:29:40.720 Don't get me wrong. 00:29:40.960 --> 00:29:42.680 I really did enjoy watching it. 00:29:43.260 --> 00:30:03.140 But at the same time, it was like, so the first episode is entirely them taking someone they know, they've captured the thing that they want, and then making it hard for them to find out where the thing is when what they want is for them to come there so they can be captured. 00:30:03.720 --> 00:30:12.800 It's like the doctor has to be clever enough to figure out the clues, but not clever enough to avoid being trapped. 00:30:13.520 --> 00:30:18.700 That's a fine line to walk when you're making a maniacal, diabolical plot. 00:30:19.240 --> 00:30:22.740 And I ask questions like, what if he'd followed the Leatherman clue? 00:30:23.540 --> 00:30:25.500 How would that have led him to Waterfield Shop? 00:30:26.040 --> 00:30:28.240 What is Waterfield Shop for? 00:30:28.800 --> 00:30:35.300 what what is the point of that is he's he's making 1966 buck and then what taking it back 00:30:35.300 --> 00:30:43.640 with him to the victorian times where he can't spend it i i like it's i i never could figure out 00:30:43.640 --> 00:30:50.040 is that strictly nothing but a trap for the doctor or have they set up that whole ruse 00:30:50.480 --> 00:30:58.260 for some other purpose as well can't tell it's just it's interesting but it kind of kill you 00:30:58.280 --> 00:31:08.500 Now, it's an interesting idea, but why have we done this when you ultimately just show up and give the doctor a card and says, here, be at my place at 10 o'clock tonight? 00:31:08.980 --> 00:31:14.200 And everything up to that point is just nullified to what they've done. 00:31:15.780 --> 00:31:16.740 It's strange. 00:31:17.060 --> 00:31:18.340 It's obviously to play time. 00:31:18.800 --> 00:31:20.980 I have bigger questions. 00:31:21.140 --> 00:31:22.860 I mean, I think the plot is absolute nonsense. 00:31:23.380 --> 00:31:24.280 It's poppycock. 00:31:24.500 --> 00:31:26.860 Why are the Daleks in 1866? 00:31:27.800 --> 00:31:28.620 I don't understand. 00:31:28.680 --> 00:31:30.540 Were they dragged in by the time machine? 00:31:31.150 --> 00:31:31.660 I thought. 00:31:32.140 --> 00:31:36.360 I thought Waterfield's time cabinet or Maxstable's time cabinet, 00:31:36.640 --> 00:31:37.880 whoever you want to attribute it to, 00:31:39.800 --> 00:31:42.520 somehow opened up a path for the Daleks to come through. 00:31:42.990 --> 00:31:43.480 And I guess. 00:31:43.640 --> 00:31:43.980 I don't. 00:31:44.120 --> 00:31:44.840 The time. 00:31:44.920 --> 00:31:45.640 Why they would do. 00:31:45.710 --> 00:31:45.820 Yeah. 00:31:46.280 --> 00:31:46.340 Yeah. 00:31:46.340 --> 00:31:47.560 I realize there's probably more. 00:31:47.590 --> 00:31:50.740 I don't understand because the time cabinet and the time machine seem to be 00:31:50.930 --> 00:31:51.040 different. 00:31:51.860 --> 00:31:52.120 Yes. 00:31:52.420 --> 00:31:52.540 Yes, 00:31:52.550 --> 00:31:52.880 they are. 00:31:53.540 --> 00:31:55.520 And I don't understand. 00:31:55.620 --> 00:31:58.900 I mean, the time machine obviously lets the Daleks travel to however, 00:31:59.120 --> 00:32:00.780 however they ended up in 1866, 00:32:00.940 --> 00:32:03.980 it lets them travel through to 1967 or whenever. 00:32:04.960 --> 00:32:10.540 And so I don't know why they need the doctor to come back to 1866 because 00:32:10.640 --> 00:32:13.000 they could just go to 1967. 00:32:14.540 --> 00:32:14.700 Yep. 00:32:15.240 --> 00:32:20.660 And yeah, I mean, the Dalek factor stuff, 00:32:20.980 --> 00:32:22.800 I didn't understand it. 00:32:22.940 --> 00:32:27.580 I mean, they come up with all this stuff about the human factor, which goes nowhere. 00:32:28.540 --> 00:32:29.700 Right, right. 00:32:30.840 --> 00:32:35.060 In terms of the story arc, that feels somewhat unsatisfying. 00:32:35.430 --> 00:32:38.200 And then the Dalek factor stuff comes out of nowhere. 00:32:38.940 --> 00:32:43.100 So, again, that feels somewhat unsatisfying in story terms. 00:32:43.580 --> 00:32:47.240 How is it identifying the things that make the humans win? 00:32:47.820 --> 00:32:54.020 How is that exercise what leads them to understanding what the factors are that make a Dalek a Dalek? 00:32:54.480 --> 00:32:56.860 I don't get that at all. 00:32:57.460 --> 00:33:02.140 No, I think I think that just that comes out of nowhere as a plot convenience. 00:33:02.770 --> 00:33:04.880 To me, to me, it feels like it's OK. 00:33:04.910 --> 00:33:11.320 I mean, so the so the interesting thing about how I think the the the story feels quite influential. 00:33:11.360 --> 00:33:17.780 but also um this may be me reading stuff into it because we're a few as we record this we're a few 00:33:17.880 --> 00:33:24.160 days out from uh the announcement that russ c davis is coming back as showrunner on doctor who 00:33:24.800 --> 00:33:31.540 and so i've dived into the writer's tale just you know out of interest of how he how he goes about 00:33:31.700 --> 00:33:40.419 writing doctor who and he he he has a very kind of visual approach he he sees particular scenes or 00:33:40.860 --> 00:33:48.100 kind of uh the the feed the emotional the the atmospheric sense of of of what you're seeing 00:33:48.720 --> 00:33:53.280 before he gets to the the plot stuff and you can kind of see how you can you can tell that 00:33:54.020 --> 00:33:57.980 that's that seems to be how david whisker has come and come at this stuff because 00:33:58.620 --> 00:34:05.159 that there is some nice atmospheric stuff in this i love the i love the shop i love it 00:34:05.600 --> 00:34:11.899 and I do actually quite like the fact that he's there selling Victoriana that is brand new because 00:34:11.940 --> 00:34:17.260 he has a time machine and that's wonderful it's a clever idea yeah it's a clever idea that is kind 00:34:17.260 --> 00:34:24.260 of wasted because it goes nowhere but it for an episode it works really really well and I also 00:34:24.540 --> 00:34:30.720 like all of the stuff in the in the Victorian house there's that kind of that closed house 00:34:30.740 --> 00:34:39.060 small cast real kind of claustrophobic sense of mystery that you get and having daleks in a 00:34:39.300 --> 00:34:45.360 victorian setting is a really nice contrast again you know i kind of like that but it but it but it 00:34:45.399 --> 00:34:52.120 does feel like those kind of things have been stitched together and then the details of how the 00:34:52.659 --> 00:34:59.340 the plot weaves in between them have been added on as pretty much a an afterthought and not much 00:34:59.360 --> 00:35:08.280 of a thought at that okay fair enough i will i will say while i'm talking about rtd that a direct 00:35:08.700 --> 00:35:14.340 influence of this in terms of the human factor because the human factor itself is not a bad idea 00:35:14.520 --> 00:35:21.360 that that you might having i mean i i find it difficult for them i did difficult to think that 00:35:21.360 --> 00:35:27.980 the daleks have difficulty with the human race even dalek invasion of earth that's thwarted by 00:35:28.180 --> 00:35:34.480 the doctor interfering not the humans themselves but but not tossing ropes over a dalek and throwing 00:35:34.600 --> 00:35:42.240 him i mean exactly the the the the idea is is a nice one and it is the idea from the cult of 00:35:42.380 --> 00:35:48.340 skaro in in the lost planet right yep i mean there's even the thing in this of the stolen 00:35:48.520 --> 00:35:56.740 planet sorry um actually i don't think so it's um it's doomsday with a cyberman that's when they 00:35:56.760 --> 00:36:03.600 pulled the scaro out oh he comes back he comes back in the stolen planet yes sorry i've just 00:36:03.760 --> 00:36:07.960 i've got that image of dalek khan gibbering away but yes no you're quite right they're introduced 00:36:08.080 --> 00:36:14.760 in doomsday um but it but but there is that similar thing of the daleks there have been 00:36:14.900 --> 00:36:23.119 given names and in this the human the daleks with the human factor the doctor names them i must say 00:36:23.640 --> 00:36:26.860 I, you know, we don't the doctors. 00:36:28.190 --> 00:36:29.640 The doctor needs a better book of names. 00:36:30.440 --> 00:36:31.200 Boy, does he? 00:36:31.430 --> 00:36:31.900 I mean, what? 00:36:32.340 --> 00:36:33.020 Who on earth? 00:36:33.320 --> 00:36:34.360 First off, who names them? 00:36:34.920 --> 00:36:38.420 I'm going to call you A, B and Z. 00:36:39.860 --> 00:36:40.000 Right. 00:36:40.180 --> 00:36:44.860 Am I by remembering my alphabet well enough to know that that is not alpha, beta. 00:36:45.560 --> 00:36:45.640 Yeah. 00:36:45.900 --> 00:36:46.020 Omega. 00:36:46.500 --> 00:36:46.960 I mean, you've gone. 00:36:47.260 --> 00:36:47.420 Yeah. 00:36:47.700 --> 00:36:49.260 Alpha Omega is first to last. 00:36:49.380 --> 00:36:49.500 Yeah. 00:36:50.420 --> 00:36:51.140 That's a weird. 00:36:51.640 --> 00:36:56.560 But even so, it does demonstrate a certain lack of imagination in terms of... 00:36:56.560 --> 00:36:57.920 Tom Baker would have had better names. 00:36:58.500 --> 00:36:58.960 Fetal Sigma. 00:36:59.320 --> 00:36:59.520 Curly. 00:37:00.140 --> 00:37:01.100 He'd call them Curly. 00:37:02.100 --> 00:37:03.380 Larry Moe and Curly, yeah. 00:37:03.880 --> 00:37:05.120 Larry Moe and Curly, there we go. 00:37:05.480 --> 00:37:06.040 Things like that. 00:37:06.540 --> 00:37:06.980 Spiky. 00:37:07.390 --> 00:37:08.820 You know, just things that don't fit... 00:37:08.820 --> 00:37:09.940 That sounds more Capaldi to me, but... 00:37:10.160 --> 00:37:10.640 Fair enough. 00:37:11.000 --> 00:37:14.980 But yeah, later doctors would have better names for their Dalek pets. 00:37:15.580 --> 00:37:16.600 But yeah. 00:37:18.160 --> 00:37:29.960 Well, yeah, I have I don't have any trouble. I don't have any trouble with the notion that the Daleks can be defeated by humans, because frankly, up till this point, the Daleks aren't that impressive and have never been that impressive. 00:37:30.520 --> 00:37:32.520 Yes, they did conquer the Earth. 00:37:34.180 --> 00:37:36.740 And yes, it took the Doctor to save them. 00:37:37.360 --> 00:37:40.480 But it wasn't that huge of a leap. 00:37:40.740 --> 00:37:47.080 And if Earth had been a more space-faring race, I don't feel like they'd have been defeated by the Daleks as easily. 00:37:47.740 --> 00:37:51.100 They're coming in just like if the Daleks invaded Victorian Earth. 00:37:51.190 --> 00:37:52.720 Yeah, no, there's no hope there. 00:37:52.730 --> 00:37:56.480 But if the Daleks invaded 23rd century Earth, different effect. 00:37:56.920 --> 00:38:08.760 So I do not like the Russell T Davies era Daleks for the very reason that they're so powerful they can challenge the Time Lords, which is nonsense. 00:38:10.220 --> 00:38:11.780 It has always been nonsense. 00:38:12.680 --> 00:38:22.720 And, you know, they've gone from comical tin pots to comical tin pots that somebody says is the most powerful beings in the universe. 00:38:23.640 --> 00:38:23.840 No. 00:38:24.220 --> 00:38:25.620 Well, I'm not sure. 00:38:25.680 --> 00:38:33.220 I'm not sure they were comical tin pot I mean I I think I think that when Daleks work best 00:38:33.840 --> 00:38:42.120 is when you see less of them so if I think of the Daleks actually the Daleks in aren't in the Daleks 00:38:42.260 --> 00:38:51.359 that much and what conveys how fearsome and how terrible they are are people's reactions to them 00:38:51.660 --> 00:38:56.660 it's what it's what they it's what they've done it's the effect of it so you you know you see 00:38:57.240 --> 00:39:05.760 how the thals react to them you see the effect they have had on the on the city in skaro does 00:39:05.760 --> 00:39:12.440 it have a name i don't know what the city um the city and similarly you know in dalek invasion of 00:39:12.540 --> 00:39:19.900 earth it's it's how the it's how the human survivors all all react and i and i felt like 00:39:20.240 --> 00:39:25.800 the stuff in the in the Victorian house was working better because the Daleks were there 00:39:26.100 --> 00:39:33.400 or it was working better when the Daleks were there in the background and you were seeing how 00:39:34.339 --> 00:39:40.900 Waterfield and and Maxtable were very jittery you know just do what they say because they're 00:39:41.080 --> 00:39:46.300 they're terrifying and you don't kind of need to demonstrate why they're terrifying you just need 00:39:46.320 --> 00:39:53.840 to show how frightened these men are and equally you know when the doctor reacts that's what scares 00:39:54.060 --> 00:40:03.880 you it's in it's in Dalek when the doctor realizes what this artifact actually is and it's the way in 00:40:03.880 --> 00:40:10.020 which he suddenly you know snaps into this there's this terrifying transformation in him that's what's 00:40:10.080 --> 00:40:16.940 frightening it's not having you know lots of daleks going round and round in circles and 00:40:17.640 --> 00:40:23.640 shooting each other and the emperor and all this yeah but you know eventually they have to they have 00:40:23.640 --> 00:40:28.600 to put their money where their mouth is you can't be afraid of something that never does anything 00:40:28.880 --> 00:40:34.500 scary eventually you've got to have you've got to have something and the daleks have always had 00:40:35.240 --> 00:40:43.380 stupid plans i mean they are the worst planners ever and i would say invasion of earth is a 00:40:43.400 --> 00:40:50.120 pretty stupid plan it is a stupid plan yeah and i do like that story a lot yeah so i mean then 00:40:50.140 --> 00:40:54.160 they're not great at plotting and they're not that invulnerable because you can just take a piece of 00:40:54.320 --> 00:40:59.820 rope and throw them off a thing and they're dead and and i on the other hand i wouldn't i wouldn't 00:40:59.840 --> 00:41:07.100 exactly crown the time lords as being brain of the universe in terms of their own plots no not 00:41:07.600 --> 00:41:14.840 no no they're not but they certainly should have had far more power than the daleks could ever have 00:41:15.400 --> 00:41:22.540 achieved their their pathetic attempt in genesis of the daleks to stop the daleks was could have 00:41:22.640 --> 00:41:28.760 been averted some other way if they really wanted to worry about it but but nonetheless you know it 00:41:28.780 --> 00:41:33.120 It is the Daleks just have never been particularly good. 00:41:33.340 --> 00:41:41.180 And, you know, in the new series, we're just told they're so incredibly scary because they've done these incredibly scary things. 00:41:41.860 --> 00:41:46.780 They're still kind of rubbish and have not been served very well. 00:41:47.620 --> 00:41:52.140 Well, I think that I think that I mean, I'm not really arguing with you here. 00:41:52.280 --> 00:41:53.900 I'm not a huge Dalek fan, 00:41:54.460 --> 00:41:59.120 but I do think there have been better Dalek stories and worse Dalek stories. 00:41:59.420 --> 00:42:00.820 And that is true now. 00:42:00.930 --> 00:42:01.920 And that was true then. 00:42:02.840 --> 00:42:04.020 I feel like this is, 00:42:04.600 --> 00:42:05.580 this is definitely one of, 00:42:06.300 --> 00:42:09.100 one of the lesser Dalek stories of the sixties. 00:42:11.060 --> 00:42:15.960 A couple of things I'll point out here that I thought were kind of other 00:42:16.860 --> 00:42:16.960 things, 00:42:17.660 --> 00:42:18.240 ignoring the Daleks. 00:42:18.600 --> 00:42:19.140 Here's another one. 00:42:19.500 --> 00:42:21.580 Jamie was dumb as a post in this episode. 00:42:21.800 --> 00:42:30.820 um yeah repeatedly like but the tardis doctor it's like shut up jamie or doctor why are we 00:42:31.020 --> 00:42:36.800 arriving 30 minutes earlier for an appointment why are we sneaking in at the top of his voice 00:42:36.800 --> 00:42:45.180 it's like shut up jamie how dumb are you today but doctor we've got find the tardis but doctor 00:42:45.300 --> 00:42:52.600 shut up shut up shut up like got it i know we're looking for the tardis i can talk to this person 00:42:53.140 --> 00:43:01.500 for 30 seconds about other things you don't need to shout what about the tardis any more times 00:43:01.960 --> 00:43:08.040 and the sequence where at the midpoint somewhere it's like when we're when we're out of this i'm 00:43:08.120 --> 00:43:15.160 done doctor you're too callous um really that just i don't know it just doesn't feel right 00:43:15.640 --> 00:43:20.780 on his character it doesn't feel it doesn't feel very jamie-ish but again i am going to pick up on 00:43:21.460 --> 00:43:28.220 something where i feel like there is quite an influence in evil i mean it's the it's it's the 00:43:28.280 --> 00:43:36.480 earliest example of this that i can think of and it becomes a a kind of touchstone of the of the 00:43:36.500 --> 00:43:40.860 the, I'm going to say the Seventh Doctor, but it's really specific. It's kind of going into the 00:43:41.470 --> 00:43:48.320 Virgin New Adventures kind of Seventh Doctor era of the idea of the Doctor being the arch 00:43:48.480 --> 00:43:55.320 manipulator and in particular manipulating his companions in a borderline abusive way. 00:43:56.380 --> 00:44:02.180 And you see that in the way that he is not honest with Jamie. I mean, at first he says, 00:44:02.240 --> 00:44:06.900 no I'm going to be absolutely honest with Jamie but then he isn't and he starts using reverse 00:44:07.180 --> 00:44:13.660 psychology on him and it does make you think of the Doctor being that that kind of master planner 00:44:14.300 --> 00:44:20.340 and the friction that that then creates between Jamie and the Doctor does feel to me very kind of 00:44:20.760 --> 00:44:25.840 Doctor and Ace because there are innumerable times when Ace sort of says you know how could 00:44:25.840 --> 00:44:31.360 you do this and I'm not traveling with you anymore and that's that feels much more like 00:44:31.840 --> 00:44:38.000 they they've earned it because they build up to that kind of showdown that that it's there within 00:44:38.080 --> 00:44:41.700 their relationship whereas there's nothing about the doctor and jamie's relationship 00:44:42.500 --> 00:44:49.620 that makes you think jamie would do that also also jamie's never seen daleks before so the first time 00:44:49.620 --> 00:44:53.760 the doctor mentions the daleks jamie is talking about you're always on about a daleks or something 00:44:54.280 --> 00:45:01.900 it's like really you think he is really good point there's also another one uh not not jamie's fault 00:45:02.040 --> 00:45:08.440 it's victoria's fault uh at some point before she's ever met the doctor she says something 00:45:08.600 --> 00:45:14.640 like and that's when jamie and the doctor came to rescue me and it and it wasn't or she she 00:45:14.880 --> 00:45:18.820 mentions jamie and the doctor in the act of rescuing her whether it's they did or they're 00:45:19.220 --> 00:45:23.840 they tried or i i don't remember what point it was but she clearly said in the doctor it's like 00:45:23.860 --> 00:45:30.740 haven't actually met him yet so um why i think she meant camel and they just flubbed the line 00:45:30.880 --> 00:45:37.840 and yeah and it it went through because it sounds natural it's jamie and the doctor yeah but yeah 00:45:38.520 --> 00:45:45.160 yeah yeah jamie bothered me in this episode at several times so while we're while we're kind of 00:45:45.580 --> 00:45:50.920 picking on things there are plot plot holes i mean it's not just that the whole thing is poppycock 00:45:51.000 --> 00:45:55.880 it's that when you get down to the nitty-gritty details there are things that just don't make 00:45:56.040 --> 00:46:02.600 sense like the the victoriana shop is in london right they're fairly explicit about that yeah 00:46:03.700 --> 00:46:07.840 how do jamie and the doctor get to london it's in gatwick just right there 00:46:08.660 --> 00:46:12.920 gatwick is like a good 30 miles away did they just walk it 00:46:12.940 --> 00:46:21.260 uh taxi i don't know it it feels like there should have been some because obviously they 00:46:21.480 --> 00:46:28.020 couldn't have done a short hop in the tardis or whatever and usually if you see them you know 00:46:28.600 --> 00:46:34.120 traveling anywhere it's because they they meet someone and get a lift or that yeah i don't know 00:46:34.220 --> 00:46:41.099 because but um i i think that's just an oversight because then later on it feels like a bit of a 00:46:41.120 --> 00:46:49.200 bigger deal that they're on scarrow okay yeah how did they get to scarrow uh the dalek time machine 00:46:49.410 --> 00:46:55.920 i guess he programmed it to take them to scarrow the dalek time machine that lets them travel 00:46:56.010 --> 00:47:02.700 through time yep i'm guessing it's a time and space that doesn't really make much more sense 00:47:02.940 --> 00:47:11.080 than well they got to scarrow in a taxi to me fair enough fair enough yeah yeah there is some 00:47:11.100 --> 00:47:17.160 holes in this story. There's no doubt about that. One of the things that is interesting 00:47:17.920 --> 00:47:21.440 that I thought, and I felt like they were trying to say something, and I don't know if it's 00:47:22.020 --> 00:47:27.560 germane to something at that time or whether it's just a universal thing. There was an awful lot of 00:47:28.020 --> 00:47:33.520 I can't be blamed for what the Daleks do. No court in the land would convict me. I think that's even 00:47:34.160 --> 00:47:38.620 Maximal has that line. This isn't a court in the land that would convict me for what I'm doing here. 00:47:40.120 --> 00:47:58.300 And Waterfield uses something similar. I can't be held accountable for what I'm being forced to do, which I don't think is morally defensible. But at the same time, it is interesting that they repeatedly make that argument. And I realize Maxstable is lying about it. 00:47:59.340 --> 00:48:03.300 He's using that as a justification, but that justification is a lie and he knows it. 00:48:03.580 --> 00:48:04.860 He is complicit with the Daleks. 00:48:05.260 --> 00:48:06.200 He's been going along with them. 00:48:06.360 --> 00:48:07.720 He's the one that kidnapped Victoria. 00:48:08.880 --> 00:48:12.980 Waterfield, on the other hand, is doing it under duress. 00:48:13.680 --> 00:48:20.700 And he is getting increasingly upset, like when they kill Kennedy, which seems to be the first time they killed somebody. 00:48:21.880 --> 00:48:24.580 And yet we're supposed to think that they think the Daleks are so terrible. 00:48:25.500 --> 00:48:29.100 Because what have the Daleks done that was terrible prior to that except shout? 00:48:30.120 --> 00:48:38.700 at them and kidnap Victoria. Don't know. But what I thought was really strange, and this kind of 00:48:38.700 --> 00:48:45.460 comes back to the animation, it's tied to that. So Maxwell is evil. Waterfield is not evil, but he is 00:48:45.700 --> 00:48:54.400 being forced into doing his things. But when you watch the surviving episode, Waterfield is a 00:48:54.880 --> 00:49:02.940 decent looking guy. He's just an ordinary looking person. Max Stable is so obviously 00:49:03.680 --> 00:49:13.360 a crazed bad guy from his hair and his look and his demeanor on the screen that, you know, 00:49:13.660 --> 00:49:18.600 it's easy to see where these things come out. But in the animation, it's exactly the opposite. 00:49:19.140 --> 00:49:26.360 Waterfield practically looks like a vampire, the way they've done him up, with the gaunt cheeks and the dark shadows and everything. 00:49:26.700 --> 00:49:27.540 He looks evil. 00:49:27.860 --> 00:49:33.440 He looks like he should be coming out like, Uncle Suck, you're blood, from behind drapes. 00:49:33.880 --> 00:49:36.980 And Maxstable looks presentable. 00:49:39.319 --> 00:49:46.580 I realize they probably can't do that crazy wild hair, but they really kind of flip them around. 00:49:47.500 --> 00:49:51.720 That's interesting because I didn't get that from the live. 00:49:52.000 --> 00:49:55.320 I mean, I don't disagree with the way that you described the animation, 00:49:55.500 --> 00:49:58.980 but I didn't feel like it was that discrepant. 00:49:58.980 --> 00:50:03.760 I didn't feel like Marius Goring's hair is obviously bad guy hair, 00:50:04.440 --> 00:50:05.600 whatever bad guy hair is. 00:50:06.880 --> 00:50:10.680 The thing is that, you know, I've watched, you have to watch episode one. 00:50:10.840 --> 00:50:11.940 That's where we meet Waterfield. 00:50:12.500 --> 00:50:12.700 Yeah. 00:50:12.800 --> 00:50:13.600 You meet Waterfield. 00:50:13.820 --> 00:50:16.160 He is obviously the master manipulator. 00:50:16.380 --> 00:50:20.100 So you're perfectly acceptable thinking he's the bad, bad guy. 00:50:20.760 --> 00:50:25.220 And he is gaunt and he is dark and he's kind of mean to his employees. 00:50:26.560 --> 00:50:30.040 But we really learned that's just Victorian manners. 00:50:30.700 --> 00:50:37.600 And, you know, he has that almost Christopher Lee look to him in this animation. 00:50:37.900 --> 00:50:39.820 So you're like, you know, fine, that's the bad guy. 00:50:40.130 --> 00:50:40.260 Okay. 00:50:41.100 --> 00:50:43.980 Then we hop to the live action and we meet Max Stable. 00:50:44.220 --> 00:50:50.820 and you're like oh that guy is okay that's it and but waterfield doesn't convey that sense of 00:50:51.060 --> 00:50:57.080 menace anymore that he did in the first episode and then you switch to episode three which is the 00:50:57.240 --> 00:51:03.380 first time you see the animated maxable and it's like wow that's just not the same guy i don't know 00:51:03.440 --> 00:51:10.040 that i would well yeah it's well i don't i yeah i mean i didn't think the hair was i didn't think 00:51:10.060 --> 00:51:15.680 the hair was animated but i don't i like you said i don't know how you could do that really but in 00:51:15.730 --> 00:51:21.220 in other respects i certainly didn't didn't get the same feeling that he did about waterfield i 00:51:21.400 --> 00:51:27.280 felt there was a kind of a good a good sense of him in the animation when you see the live action 00:51:27.710 --> 00:51:34.480 yeah i get it and i i can see it's the same person uh i can see it's yeah but also but also 00:51:34.500 --> 00:51:38.940 So that it's, you know, it's highlighting the same aspect. 00:51:39.140 --> 00:51:41.640 He is quite sort of, he's quite stern. 00:51:41.860 --> 00:51:44.580 He's quite overbearing in some respects. 00:51:45.720 --> 00:51:48.080 And Maxwell feels softer. 00:51:48.170 --> 00:51:54.480 He feels more kind of avuncular and playing the, playing mine host. 00:51:54.570 --> 00:51:57.880 It feels more in tune. 00:51:58.680 --> 00:52:03.840 My impression of the live action episode feels more in tune with your impression of the animated episodes. 00:52:03.900 --> 00:52:11.080 i i it would be like if uh half the movie they took a character and they and they lit him in 00:52:11.290 --> 00:52:16.820 horror lighting all the time and then in the other half they didn't it's kind of like that 00:52:17.340 --> 00:52:25.280 that's the feel like no i understand i just didn't get the same impression of it um is this the first 00:52:25.380 --> 00:52:33.860 time the doctor ever explicitly said he's not human i was wondering that i mean obviously 00:52:33.880 --> 00:52:39.700 He says he's from another planet in the future, but it could be in the future and it could be a human. 00:52:40.240 --> 00:52:47.000 He could be an ancestor of humans. And the regeneration could have been a function that his people have developed. 00:52:47.140 --> 00:52:53.280 That's part of the TARDIS, you know. So, I mean, all that we just know he's from another planet. 00:52:53.680 --> 00:53:02.220 We did not know. I don't think we knew that he was not human, but I'm not I'm not absolutely sure on that. 00:53:02.540 --> 00:53:09.040 It just it felt like it that they were a little more explicit with it in this episode than they have been in the past. 00:53:09.820 --> 00:53:12.440 It certainly stood out to me, the fact they were hammering that. 00:53:12.470 --> 00:53:23.500 And then obviously it became clear the reason for that was because they needed it as the explanation for why the doctor is not affected by the magical doorway. 00:53:24.160 --> 00:53:29.120 That could make this the very first time that they pulled out a new feature, 00:53:29.840 --> 00:53:32.960 biological feature for the doctor, apart from their generation, 00:53:33.110 --> 00:53:34.160 which might not be a biological feature. 00:53:34.160 --> 00:53:35.160 Yeah, generation is a big one. 00:53:36.280 --> 00:53:38.800 To get out of a plot hole. 00:53:39.560 --> 00:53:42.020 Oh, you've got a respiratory bypass system. 00:53:42.200 --> 00:53:43.380 Why didn't we know that before? 00:53:45.300 --> 00:53:47.240 And I still want to know where that bypass goes. 00:53:48.520 --> 00:53:50.060 It's an influential story. 00:53:50.660 --> 00:53:50.880 Yeah. 00:53:51.360 --> 00:53:51.840 Let's see. 00:53:52.440 --> 00:53:53.560 Dizzy, dizzy Daleks. 00:53:54.140 --> 00:54:02.540 that was a bit fun I have to say stupid little bit fun yeah I yeah it was a strange cliffhanger 00:54:03.080 --> 00:54:10.500 I felt a pretty strange way to end the episode I thought that it was it was it was a fun thing to 00:54:10.660 --> 00:54:18.040 do but you have to be careful with if you've got your kind of arch baddies of showing them in any 00:54:18.120 --> 00:54:21.960 light where they appear a little bit ridiculous because as soon as you realize they're ridiculous 00:54:21.960 --> 00:54:29.580 they become the kind of cartoon monster that you just get portrayed as yeah being being these kind 00:54:29.580 --> 00:54:35.680 of comical baddies and you know during the kind of decline in the 1980s this was always the kind 00:54:35.870 --> 00:54:46.300 of pastiche or or joke about Doctor Who and I thought they trod the line okay on that but then 00:54:46.600 --> 00:54:53.320 later in the episode when they have characters just doing the dalek voice they went well over 00:54:53.320 --> 00:55:01.800 the line that that just seems like they are sending it up yeah there's no reason for them 00:55:01.800 --> 00:55:07.400 to actually do the funny voice no and i mean that comes part that's partly to do with the 00:55:07.540 --> 00:55:14.480 poppycock plot it it it it doesn't the dalek factor thing it doesn't really connect with 00:55:14.780 --> 00:55:21.080 the whole thing of Daleks and what they are and this idea of them being genetically engineered 00:55:21.130 --> 00:55:26.780 in that particular way because the magic doorway just undermines that. Don't you think the Daleks 00:55:26.980 --> 00:55:34.740 already knew that about themselves anyway? If we could just make humans like us, then we could win. 00:55:34.980 --> 00:55:40.960 They already know what they're like. The bigger issue for me is that it cuts against this 00:55:41.380 --> 00:55:48.260 dalek purity thing that they should not want humans to be like them because even if they 00:55:48.540 --> 00:55:55.640 they took the human gene and created something that was that had all of the kind of qualities 00:55:56.180 --> 00:56:03.460 and character of a dalek they would still feel like yeah but genetically it's a human and therefore 00:56:03.480 --> 00:56:09.320 yeah but i don't think i don't think that the plan was to swell the ranks of daleks i think 00:56:09.340 --> 00:56:15.120 the plan was to turn as many humans into dalek like creatures as it could tell them to go kill 00:56:15.320 --> 00:56:19.860 all the rest of the humans and then they just wipe out the dollar the human daleks afterwards 00:56:20.340 --> 00:56:24.180 i think their ultimate goal is still to wipe out all the humans well you can you can possibly 00:56:24.520 --> 00:56:29.500 rationalize it but you're still left with the question of why does a dalek sound like a dalek 00:56:30.020 --> 00:56:37.940 And the answer is nothing to do with its character and those traits. 00:56:38.400 --> 00:56:40.820 It's a physiological question. 00:56:40.820 --> 00:56:52.040 It's the fact that they have genetically manipulated themselves into these nuclear proof creatures that have to move around inside these machines. 00:56:52.360 --> 00:56:59.560 and then given the machine's voice synthesizers that are very basic because Daleks don't care about, 00:57:00.420 --> 00:57:05.440 you know, such aesthetic niceties as having a musical speaking voice. 00:57:06.160 --> 00:57:11.600 Yes. So the human factor, the ability to modulate and calm your voice. 00:57:14.000 --> 00:57:18.040 I didn't hear them put that one in the human factor when the doctor was calculating it. 00:57:18.080 --> 00:57:22.340 That definitely needed to be in there because then when they made the Dalek 00:57:22.500 --> 00:57:24.460 factor by doing the opposite, 00:57:26.300 --> 00:57:26.700 that would, 00:57:26.940 --> 00:57:28.720 that would cause Maxwell to talk funny. 00:57:29.600 --> 00:57:30.260 Let's see. 00:57:30.820 --> 00:57:33.560 It's interesting that they were so concerned with Victoria's weight. 00:57:34.180 --> 00:57:34.680 Reminds me. 00:57:35.420 --> 00:57:35.520 They, 00:57:35.760 --> 00:57:36.320 they just like, 00:57:36.400 --> 00:57:36.940 you'll eat. 00:57:37.040 --> 00:57:37.360 And then they, 00:57:37.580 --> 00:57:39.040 they measured her and you're like, 00:57:39.540 --> 00:57:43.000 you're down seven ounces or 17 ounces or something. 00:57:43.240 --> 00:57:43.440 It's like, 00:57:43.680 --> 00:57:43.940 eat, 00:57:44.340 --> 00:57:45.740 don't feed the flying pests. 00:57:46.400 --> 00:57:46.600 It's like, 00:57:46.740 --> 00:57:48.740 I get that they want to keep her alive, 00:57:49.440 --> 00:57:52.460 but really, that level of weight control 00:57:53.300 --> 00:57:56.560 didn't make a whole lot of sense. 00:57:57.120 --> 00:57:58.980 They just get an excuse to put her on the machine 00:57:59.020 --> 00:58:00.780 to weigh her, which apparently hurts. 00:58:02.420 --> 00:58:04.760 Arthur Terrell, was that character 00:58:05.220 --> 00:58:06.320 completely and utterly pointless, 00:58:07.040 --> 00:58:08.360 as was Maxwell's daughter? 00:58:09.320 --> 00:58:11.080 As opposed to, yeah. 00:58:11.700 --> 00:58:14.180 I mean, he didn't do anything, really. 00:58:15.180 --> 00:58:23.380 a lot of these characters they they yeah they sort of came into the story and then disappeared 00:58:23.550 --> 00:58:29.940 i mean even even characters like kemmel and maxtable or whatever i mean i i don't know i 00:58:30.060 --> 00:58:37.760 don't know that why maxtable is the is the classic he has a he appears to be one thing he's revealed 00:58:37.920 --> 00:58:43.079 to be another he has an obsession the obsession leads to his current co-op skype actually doesn't 00:58:43.100 --> 00:58:48.300 lead to his car because as far as i can tell he completely gets away with it waterfield didn't he 00:58:48.460 --> 00:58:55.140 die on scarrow did he i don't know i didn't i think he ran back into the battle and we didn't 00:58:55.260 --> 00:59:00.060 see the shot but i didn't i we didn't see we didn't see it i don't again i don't know whether 00:59:00.200 --> 00:59:04.580 that's the animation or whether it's just me getting extremely bored by that point because 00:59:05.460 --> 00:59:13.060 obviously you know waterfield water again waterfield has more of an arc because he's 00:59:13.080 --> 00:59:17.580 He is, as you say, forced into doing some things that he deeply regrets. 00:59:18.140 --> 00:59:22.800 I guess his death is a form of redemption because he saves the Doctor. 00:59:23.580 --> 00:59:26.900 OK, no idea what Kemmel's death is about. 00:59:27.100 --> 00:59:42.560 But then Kemmel doesn't really have much of an arc because he's just there, friends with Jamie and then tends to do everything right, is jolly good and virtuous and then gets chucked into it. 00:59:42.960 --> 00:59:50.940 chasm for no reason um and yeah toby i don't i mean i guess toby kennedy you've got to have some 00:59:51.060 --> 00:59:58.660 people who get killed by daleks all right i can i can understand that but it doesn't it doesn't feel 00:59:58.780 --> 01:00:07.380 very satisfying i guess yeah it's it's a it's a definitely a middle of the road episode of doctor 01:00:07.440 --> 01:00:13.480 who there are there are many better out there i'm absolutely uh i don't think underwater menace 01:00:13.480 --> 01:00:22.720 is one of them but there are many better out yes it is i i will reserve my final judgment 01:00:22.900 --> 01:00:28.420 on underwater menace until they animate it uh and see if it's if it's any if i think it's any better 01:00:28.580 --> 01:00:34.140 but um there are there are some things that i liked about this episode and somewhat to my 01:00:34.160 --> 01:00:41.340 surprise one of them is the score um which is dudley simpson but i i mean often dudley simpson 01:00:41.520 --> 01:00:46.140 doesn't actually do a lot for me i really liked this one i'm trying to remember what i thought 01:00:46.280 --> 01:00:51.480 about the macro terror whether i mentioned that or or not i'll have to go back and listen to the 01:00:52.370 --> 01:00:58.039 podcast um obviously if i did like it it wasn't sufficiently memorable for me to um to be able 01:00:58.060 --> 01:01:05.160 think it was not sufficiently memorable uh my recollection is is nothing i am yes it does have 01:01:05.160 --> 01:01:11.360 the crazy dance in it doesn't it um i i am just going to say uh once again i will just quote my 01:01:11.560 --> 01:01:19.160 notes here uh i have a section uh heading music subsection yuck it's all i got interesting 01:01:19.660 --> 01:01:24.940 interesting um there was there were sections of it particularly the uh kind of background 01:01:24.960 --> 01:01:30.860 skara music that i didn't like i thought that it was a bit more kind of standard dudley simpson 01:01:31.030 --> 01:01:39.660 stuff but i generally did think the music was effective and yeah no i mean no stronger than 01:01:39.760 --> 01:01:46.900 that i i enjoyed it i liked it i found it intrusive it was it was enough to stand out i mean i love a 01:01:46.960 --> 01:01:54.040 good i love a good strong piece of music that i am the doctor for example that that swells up at 01:01:54.060 --> 01:01:59.560 the right moment and it carries the mood along uh or or you know not not necessarily an exciting 01:01:59.760 --> 01:02:05.840 action piece i didn't find this to be that i found this to be like who who let a musician 01:02:06.010 --> 01:02:12.540 into the room and he's playing the wrong tune right now oh no i thought it was it was appropriate 01:02:12.730 --> 01:02:22.720 it felt yeah it felt it felt appropriate it added to the drama for me anyway let's see uh i i only 01:02:22.740 --> 01:02:26.960 have one last thing and i'll but i'll i'll turn it to you first and see what else you got 01:02:28.380 --> 01:02:36.720 that's pretty much it for me except for the guest stars um not not a huge uh starring role for either 01:02:36.820 --> 01:02:43.520 them but windsor davies uh was toby i didn't recognize him in this um not that i was ever a 01:02:43.740 --> 01:02:52.700 regular watcher of it ain't half hot mum but you know a name um and bridget forsyth who was in 01:02:52.720 --> 01:02:55.440 whatever happened to the likely lads a few years later. 01:02:56.000 --> 01:02:57.660 She playing Max Doolstard. 01:02:58.400 --> 01:02:58.500 Yeah. 01:02:59.060 --> 01:03:01.120 I don't recognize either of those two. 01:03:01.820 --> 01:03:02.000 So, 01:03:02.720 --> 01:03:02.880 uh, 01:03:03.180 --> 01:03:09.280 I guess the one thing I want to add is that I saw a tweet online earlier 01:03:09.440 --> 01:03:15.100 today and someone had posted a picture of a newspaper review. 01:03:15.840 --> 01:03:16.100 Oh yeah. 01:03:16.780 --> 01:03:16.980 Evil. 01:03:16.980 --> 01:03:21.200 You saw that talking about the guy who watched it twice at the guy who 01:03:21.280 --> 01:03:21.860 watched it twice. 01:03:22.660 --> 01:03:23.500 And thought it was terrible. 01:03:24.200 --> 01:03:25.700 Thought it was terrible and thought, 01:03:26.000 --> 01:03:28.040 and it's something about his wife mentioning the scene 01:03:28.070 --> 01:03:30.060 where Jamie pops his head in 01:03:30.500 --> 01:03:35.340 and has to visibly wait for the trap to spring in the thing. 01:03:35.570 --> 01:03:39.200 And I thought, isn't that nice of the animators 01:03:39.400 --> 01:03:40.580 to keep that in? 01:03:41.720 --> 01:03:44.860 Because that's exactly what happens in the animated version. 01:03:45.300 --> 01:03:48.720 It's so slow for the trap to spring. 01:03:49.260 --> 01:03:51.260 You'd have thought they could have, I don't know, 01:03:51.560 --> 01:03:58.860 somehow made that i thought it was the animation that looked unconvincing like well they just they 01:03:58.920 --> 01:04:03.380 didn't get that right they didn't get the timing right but apparently apparently they didn't get 01:04:03.480 --> 01:04:10.380 the timing right on the original one either so yeah those are in lost episodes so i think i think 01:04:10.500 --> 01:04:16.600 i think that's a a factor of the style of the animation that you watch it and you are willing 01:04:16.620 --> 01:04:20.780 to give the credits to the original makers 01:04:20.960 --> 01:04:22.120 for having got that right 01:04:22.120 --> 01:04:23.940 and just put this down to the animation. 01:04:24.560 --> 01:04:27.120 Yeah, but apparently not so much. 01:04:27.460 --> 01:04:29.040 So it's an homage. 01:04:29.600 --> 01:04:31.860 We'll call it an homage in the animation to the original 01:04:32.460 --> 01:04:34.360 instead of a deficiency. 01:04:37.040 --> 01:04:37.540 All right. 01:04:39.020 --> 01:04:41.680 The next, it's been announced, Galaxy 4. 01:04:42.560 --> 01:04:42.980 Well, hey. 01:04:43.060 --> 01:04:44.580 It's coming out in October. 01:04:45.320 --> 01:04:49.420 It's amazing how quickly they're coming now. 01:04:49.540 --> 01:04:53.840 I mean, I was amazed that they announced Evil so soon after Web of Fear. 01:04:54.400 --> 01:04:59.000 I mean, literally, it's been like a six-week gap, I think, between releases. 01:05:00.200 --> 01:05:03.100 I'm not sure it's October, but I think it might be November. 01:05:03.340 --> 01:05:04.780 I don't have the date to hand. 01:05:05.360 --> 01:05:08.000 But it's still another one this year, which, you know, 01:05:08.030 --> 01:05:11.740 I would have expected it would be spring before we got another one 01:05:11.850 --> 01:05:13.600 because we were on a two-a-year cycle. 01:05:14.240 --> 01:05:14.500 Yeah. 01:05:14.820 --> 01:05:17.300 We've had Fury from the Deep this year already. 01:05:17.560 --> 01:05:21.300 So this is three and a bit animations, right? 01:05:21.880 --> 01:05:22.020 Yeah. 01:05:22.540 --> 01:05:23.800 It's really ramping up. 01:05:24.260 --> 01:05:25.500 I'm not dissatisfied. 01:05:25.680 --> 01:05:27.540 Maybe it's because they're working at home in pandemic. 01:05:28.200 --> 01:05:29.740 And this was good work to work on. 01:05:29.980 --> 01:05:31.940 I mean, seriously, it could very well be. 01:05:32.400 --> 01:05:33.600 I think they were working at home anyway. 01:05:34.260 --> 01:05:34.460 Right. 01:05:34.800 --> 01:05:36.940 But they may have been doing other work. 01:05:37.080 --> 01:05:42.980 And it's like, this is one we can do in this kind of situation at a higher rate. 01:05:43.240 --> 01:05:48.000 So I would like to think that something good has come out of it or, 01:05:48.440 --> 01:05:49.720 or they're just getting up to speed. 01:05:49.860 --> 01:05:50.600 I don't care. 01:05:51.080 --> 01:05:52.420 I don't know. 01:05:52.760 --> 01:05:55.300 We can talk about this offline as to whether or not we're actually going to 01:05:55.300 --> 01:05:57.320 do another episode on galaxy four. 01:05:58.060 --> 01:05:58.840 Cause we have come on. 01:06:01.660 --> 01:06:06.720 We reviewed the like 25 minutes of it without any animation. 01:06:07.880 --> 01:06:08.120 No, 01:06:08.240 --> 01:06:08.940 I think, 01:06:09.320 --> 01:06:09.640 I mean, 01:06:10.060 --> 01:06:10.320 I mean, 01:06:10.660 --> 01:06:14.120 I'm interested in it as a full story. 01:06:14.290 --> 01:06:17.780 And I'm also interested because although we've had these, 01:06:18.340 --> 01:06:24.940 we talked about the kind of consistency in these four serials 01:06:25.090 --> 01:06:26.480 that have been done by the same people, 01:06:28.680 --> 01:06:33.200 the big Finnish ones, it's almost like every time they change style, 01:06:33.980 --> 01:06:38.000 they go out to a different, you know, they outsource the animation, 01:06:38.240 --> 01:06:40.520 they go out to some completely different animation studio. 01:06:41.500 --> 01:06:43.300 It looks to me, I mean, it's really, 01:06:43.780 --> 01:06:45.700 really hard to tell from the clips that we've seen. 01:06:46.120 --> 01:06:49.800 It looks to me like it might be a bit similar to Fury from the Deep. 01:06:50.140 --> 01:06:53.240 I was hoping that it would be an evolution from the Web of Fear style. 01:06:54.300 --> 01:06:55.740 It may be something completely different. 01:06:55.980 --> 01:06:59.060 I think, I think we've got to have a look at it and do a review. 01:06:59.760 --> 01:07:00.140 All right. 01:07:01.040 --> 01:07:01.900 You twist my arm. 01:07:04.020 --> 01:07:05.800 But, but you heard it here first, folks. 01:07:06.500 --> 01:07:07.080 Simon's idea. 01:07:07.940 --> 01:07:13.260 No. Blame me. Yeah. Yep. Thanks. Just in case. But come on. 01:07:13.990 --> 01:07:18.700 As I recall, as I recall, we liked Galaxy four in its 30 minute form. 01:07:19.260 --> 01:07:25.600 Well, there we go then. Another reason to. I feel like I can't remember, to be honest, but seems to be my recollection. 01:07:25.760 --> 01:07:29.040 It's like, wow, this is really a shame. This story is not in because I enjoyed it. 01:07:29.140 --> 01:07:33.180 So here we go. I'm good with it. I am very, very good. 01:07:33.180 --> 01:07:37.220 But this is the first Hartnell we've had in a while, isn't it? 01:07:38.180 --> 01:07:43.540 yes yes so that's another another reason to take a look at it i mean i am certainly not complaining 01:07:43.780 --> 01:07:50.940 about having a whole slew of new trout because i love my trout but it's nice to have some variety 01:07:51.160 --> 01:07:58.080 too yeah fill them all in every last one all of them don't wait to the last to do the historicals 01:07:58.140 --> 01:08:02.220 because it's going to be like what they did with the doctor who vhs line they released all the 01:08:02.240 --> 01:08:07.100 ones people liked first saving the ones they didn't like for last and then sales trailed off 01:08:07.600 --> 01:08:13.900 well oh i see yes that is a that is potentially a worry i mean the reason they're waiting on the 01:08:13.980 --> 01:08:19.020 historicals is more to do with the technical difficulties of animating them and i would also 01:08:19.240 --> 01:08:24.799 add i like the historicals but i i see what you're saying which is that's me buying it is not 01:08:25.000 --> 01:08:29.700 necessarily going to cover the cost so it needs lots of people to like them and lots of people 01:08:29.720 --> 01:08:34.120 like them or to just go you know something there's another hole to fill in my collection i want it 01:08:34.660 --> 01:08:40.580 not not oh now we've got the smugglers and we've got the can't even think of some of the other 01:08:40.759 --> 01:08:47.480 missing historicals but uh the crusades marco polo the highlanders marco yep see i want all those 01:08:48.060 --> 01:08:54.560 i want all those i'd like them to i'd like them to split them up two science fiction one historical 01:08:55.120 --> 01:08:56.880 that's how I would think they should do them 01:08:57.490 --> 01:08:58.700 and then get them out of the way 01:09:00.520 --> 01:09:02.100 Simon thank you for joining me 01:09:02.680 --> 01:09:03.799 it's a pleasure as always 01:09:04.600 --> 01:09:04.859 listeners 01:09:05.540 --> 01:09:07.359 I hope you'll join us all again next time 01:09:08.140 --> 01:09:09.060 on Fusion Patrol 01:09:11.180 --> 01:09:13.680 we hope you've enjoyed listening to Fusion Patrol 01:09:14.089 --> 01:09:15.460 a listener supported podcast 01:09:16.380 --> 01:09:18.279 there are over 500 previous episodes 01:09:18.660 --> 01:09:20.240 available at FusionPatrol.com 01:09:21.359 --> 01:09:22.460 come join the conversation 01:09:22.460 --> 01:09:24.580 on Twitter, our website, or Facebook. 01:09:25.600 --> 01:09:27.020 Find out how you can become a supporter 01:09:27.430 --> 01:09:29.900 at patreon.com slash fusion patrol. 01:09:30.960 --> 01:09:33.580 Supporters get early access to all regular episodes, 01:09:34.109 --> 01:09:35.500 bonus episodes, and more. 01:09:36.279 --> 01:09:38.259 There's even an optional podcast series 01:09:38.560 --> 01:09:41.500 where we're looking at the classic TV series Babylon 5. 01:09:42.940 --> 01:09:45.560 Our music is Fight the Future by Amber Wolf. 01:09:46.359 --> 01:09:48.220 This has been a Lone Locust production. 01:09:51.500 --> 01:09:55.680 On the next episode of Fusion Patrol, please join me, Eugene. 01:09:56.480 --> 01:09:57.100 And me, Simon. 01:09:57.700 --> 01:10:00.880 And we are talking about the Bugs episode, Hot Metal. 01:10:01.120 --> 01:10:03.820 We're talking about sonic technology. 01:10:03.980 --> 01:10:07.880 In fact, two completely separate and unconnected sonic technologies. 01:10:08.720 --> 01:10:13.380 We're talking about inconsistent villains and their pointlessly elaborate traps. 01:10:13.680 --> 01:10:18.340 And we're talking about the team Bugs and their relationship to Her Majesty's government. 01:10:19.140 --> 01:10:21.020 We hope you'll come join the conversation.