You're listening to Fusion Patrol, a listener-supported podcast.
Each week, we take a single episode of a science fiction TV series or movie
and overanalyze it to within an inch of its life.
Welcome to the discussion.
Hello, and welcome to another episode of Fusion Patrol. I'm Eugene.
And I'm Simon.
And tonight we're going to continue our weird way of circuitously not reviewing every episode of Doctor Who in existence.
Instead, we're going to continue looking at the oddities, the strange bits, and the miscellaneous.
With tonight being the movie Doctor Who.
and the Daleks.
What are the oddities if we...
The Shauka?
Yeah, and all the animated...
Well, I think the animated...
Well, the animated are real ones, aren't they?
Sort of. You know what I mean?
We could just start
at an unearthly child
and we could work our way through, but
we don't. We always kind of
pick the one-off and
the different...
The different, because it's too big of a
task to do them all.
So by the time they've finished animating all of the existing Doctor Who black and white stories,
because that's probably what they're going to do.
They're just going to delete the ones they've got and replace them with animations.
I think that's the next thing on the line.
But anyway, which, you know, will be great on Blu-ray.
But tonight it's Doctor Who and the Daleks with Peter Cushing as Doctor Who.
It's just another quiet evening at the home of Doctor Who and his two granddaughters, Susan and Barbara.
Barbara's young man, Ian Chesterton, is coming to call on her this evening.
It may be a quiet evening at home reading books and comics, but it's also a momentous evening.
Just sitting in one of the chairs is the last piece of equipment that Doctor Who needs to complete years of his life's work.
TARDIS, a time and space machine that he has built, curiously in the shape of a London police public
call box. Since Ian, who is a bit of a klutz, almost sits on that piece of equipment, Doctor
Who decides maybe tonight he should complete TARDIS. He shows Chesterton his fabulous machine,
but Klutzman Ian manages to launch them into space and time without a clue to their destination.
They find themselves on a burnt-out planet in a petrified forest.
Soon they discover a fabulous city, which Doctor Who and his precocious granddaughter Susan want to explore.
Ian is scared and wants to go home.
Doctor Who fakes that the fluid link is broken,
forcing them to investigate the city for needed mercury to replace the fluid in said fluid link.
But not before there's a mysterious knock at TARDIS' door.
Outside, they find no one but a mysterious box filled with chemicals.
Doctor Who decides they have time to investigate that later and leaves the box inside TARDIS.
In the city, they are captured by creatures enclosed in metal machines.
These creatures are called Daleks.
They are the descendants of the survivors of the war that destroyed the planet.
They live in their city, encased in their machines to protect them from the radiation outside.
Also outside are their ancient enemies, the Thals, horribly mutated creatures that wander the barren land.
In their cell, the gang are getting ill, and Doctor Who realizes that they have radiation sickness.
The outside environment has been lethally radioactive and is killing them.
He realizes that the box must have been radiation medicine given to them by the Thals.
The Daleks realize that if they could get that medicine, they could leave their machines and their city.
They force Susan, the only one well enough, to return to TARDIS and get the medicine.
The Daleks plan to take the medicine and let the travelers die.
It seems the Daleks may not be entirely nice guys.
Along the way, Susan encounters the Thals, beautiful, kindly, golden people who not only help her,
but also give her even more medicine, just in case the Daleks don't hand over the first batch to her family and friends.
The Daleks immediately discover the extra drugs, but A decide to let Susan give them to the gang anyway,
curing them from this plot complication.
The Daleks also have Susan write a nice letter to the Thals, asking them over for afternoon tea.
It is, of course, a trap, because, as previously mentioned, the Daleks aren't entirely nice guys.
The travelers escape and warn the Thals, just in the nick of time, and they all escape the city.
Problem solved, it's time to return to TARDIS and go home.
Just one problem.
Doctor Who left the fluid link back with the Daleks.
In the city, the Daleks begin to test the medicine.
It turns out the medicine kills them, presumably because they now rely on the radiation.
They decide to explode a massive neutronic bomb and completely irradiate the planet,
killing all the Thals and finally winning that war.
The Thals are pacifists and will not fight the Daleks,
but Doctor Who, desperate to get back that fluid link,
makes the leader of the Thals mad enough to beat up Ian.
Having shown him that he can get mad and fight,
it's easy to convince the Thals to attack the Dalek city.
While Ian, Barbara, and a team of Thals travel around the city
through a swamp of death,
Doctor Who, Susan, and the remaining Thals
use mirrors to attack the front of the city.
Both groups arriving just in time
to battle the Daleks and stop the bomb.
With a fluid link returned,
Doctor Who, Barbara, Susan, and Ian
bid a tearful farewell to the Thals
and return to Earth,
just in time for the Roman legions to attack them.
The end.
Well, so have you seen this movie before?
yes yeah okay i wasn't sure whether this was like a complete uh shocker or whether uh this was uh
this was something you were revisiting no i've seen i've seen both the films okay only once i
may i may have seen this twice before but i doubt having voluntarily chosen to re-watch it
so um what what are your thoughts what are your first thoughts well my my my overall
take on this is that it's it's a it's a plot point by plot point remake of the daleks the second
serial by terry nation from the show which they basically grabbed and converted wholesale into a
screen colour cinematic release cutting it down from what must be close to three hours to 80
minutes and here's the here's the thing about the Daleks I the Daleks was not the first Dalek
serial I ever watched probably in common with a lot of Doctor Who fans of my age and younger
which at my age is probably most of us now um it's probably true with most doctor who fans
since they didn't repeat yes i mean those those who grew up with it will obviously
this will have been the the serial which you see the daleks for the first time and in my mind
this is this is what has kind of created the the the fascination with the the daleks because
we know you know the the orthodox Doctor Who history is that the the first serial was a bit
of a flop but when Verity Lambert defied Sidney Newman by bringing in these new bug-eyed monsters
suddenly the the nation was captivated by these these kind of curious machines and so when and
this is only a couple of years later they make a cinematic release a you know a film version of
doctor who they decide that the the thing that they must keep from the show and we'll come back
to the things they do and don't keep but you know the key thing it goes in the title is the daleks
because it's dalek mania right right and i you know growing up in the in the 80s i remember in
my primary school everyone going on about daleks and doing dalek voices and dalek actions and so
you know that was that you grew up with nick briggs
yes he was at my school yeah no all right he was at all of our schools he was at all of our schools
but the the i mean the thing is that when you go back and look at this serial and i i guess you
carry some high or this story i should say because it's the same story we're looking at in the film
you carry some high expectations um in in terms of the dalek daleks with it and in my mind it's
still not a very good dalek story the there are some things that were kind of quickly ditched in
the dalek mythos there were some things that were later on added in and i think about genesis of the
Daleks where it's pretty universally highly regarded and the kind of origin story is all
about how the the the metal casing they're in the mutated forms are in is precisely to sustain them
because of the radiation whereas they seem to be wanting radiation drugs in this and that's all a
bit weird um but the the kind of things that always didn't jive with me but obviously make
it into the film and and and seem to be popular are the are the let's get the let's get the tiny
dalek mutant creature out of the casing which is quite a sinister thing and let's fit the giant
human man inside the casing and then somehow somehow he's he's in a position within the casing
where the however the the eyestalk works feeds into he he can line up his eye basically with
some sort of screen you know it's no direct input to an optic nerve or whatever and his vocal cords
are for whatever reason mashed up into sounding like a dalek rather than it being some kind of
crude amplification system because the you know the mutated larynx of of of the of the dalek
creature is incapable of projecting and enunciating the way a humanoid could um but it's it's it's the
comic it's the slapstick right it's the it's the it's the kind of it's the imaginative appeal of
having someone getting inside the dustbin and pretending to be one of these strange machines
well to be fair Roy Castle's not that big of a human being
well that's he's bigger than susan but not much and he yes yes but he's still he's still bigger
than the the dalek machine i think the thing about it is the movie really really goes big
on all that stuff and where it does add things in and you know when you've got 80 minutes running
time to to cram in a serial of this length do you really want to spend 10 minutes looking at
trying to open a door.
Well, apparently cinema audiences did.
It's called tension.
I'm not sure.
Well, I think it's supposed to be comedy.
Oh.
That's my guess.
Oh, my guess.
Which door?
The one where he's sitting on the pad and gets up.
Oh, that one.
That one.
I was thinking when he was trying to get out of the elevator.
Okay.
But yes, you're right.
You're right.
Or the door to Doctor Who's house.
The thing is, almost all the kind of memorable scenes in the story are there, but in a very sort of truncated form.
And actually, because this is very much connected to the serial, I decided I would re-watch the serial to see what was there and what wasn't and what was in one and not the other.
And they managed to get pretty much all of the plot into the 80 minutes, I think.
They've managed to get absolutely none of the charm and the interest.
And here's the thing, all those criticisms about the Dalek story, you know, that was me thinking, you know, it's got this it's got this awful kind of this nonsense with getting inside a Dalek machine and pretending to be a Dalek.
And then there's a whole load of it where there just aren't really any Daleks because it's all the swamp stuff and the cave stuff and the trying to get into the city for about three episodes.
And you rewatch it. And actually, all of that stuff is brilliant.
It's because what's great about the BBC version of this story is that even though they were doing this on an absolute shoestring and, you know, when you look at the film budget, you don't think that's so much.
but compared to what the BBC had, it must have been a king's ransom. And yet the design and the
photography and the direction in the BBC serial is superb. And the cast absolutely act their socks
off. I mean, I just forget how damn good these people are. And then you look at the film and
the the design is horrible it's you know it's it's full technicolor and all the rest of it
what have they done with it they it's garish garish colors it's it's uh nasty looking model
shots the the there's no you know there's there's there's guilt instead of style there's there's
none of the there's none of the imaginative photography the acting and i'll come back to
individual performances but god almighty it's terrible and you know I love Peter Cushing but
wow this is just awful and the changes that they've made in terms of the writing make almost
no sense I mean either they don't make any sense at all or you just think well there's some kind
of internal logic to that but why did they think it was a good idea because the change they've made
is a massive downgrade.
Okay, so let's take a couple of thoughts here on this.
I don't know if this is a phenomena in Britain,
but in the United States,
there have been, at least when I was a kid,
movies and TV shows that,
so if a movie comes out or a TV show comes out
and somebody writes a novelization of it, right?
Sometimes the novelizations,
well, I know you have these in Britain.
That's not what I'm getting to. But then also, sometimes if the property has an appeal to
children in some way, they would make really short kid books, maybe even illustrated from
those stories. And they would absolutely truncate the heck of them down and simplify things and
perhaps make things a little brighter or a little more comedy and that's exactly what this film
reminds me of this is one of those kid books turned back into a movie so you take something
that was aimed at you know at a i don't want to say an adult audience but at a reasonably
intelligent audience and then you decide it needs to be dumbed down for a book and then somebody
He says, that'd make a great movie, and then turns it back into a film.
It's kind of the feel I get out of this.
It hits the beats, but it just isn't, you know, at the same audience and at the same level of engagement.
You know, it's not trying to hit the same buttons of, and I'm not trying to put this as intellectual.
I think you're right.
It's meant to be a broader audience.
It's supposed to be funnier.
It's supposed to appeal to a broader audience.
It's supposed to appeal to, and these are misjudged things.
Now, some of the things like Doctor Who instead of the Doctor and changing characters, I wouldn't be surprised if this isn't something to do with the bizarre, bizarre to me, bizarre to the way I understand it works in the United States.
way of rights and copyright ownership that you have in britain so when you know when you write
a tv series in the united states if in episode two writer john smith develops a particular
character he didn't own that character the the series owns it that whoever is hands on the
contract well the contracts don't give it over here right but but you know to have no terry
nation own the daleks if you're on staff if you're a staff bbc writer and you create something
it's it's because you're salaried to the bbc if you're a freelancer on a contract i think this is
massive oversimplification but um then your contract may leave you with the rights to the
character hence the fact that terry nation who wrote the serial the daleks retained ownership
of the daleks he owns the story and he owns the daleks but he does not own the doctor and the
format of the bbc series and so it you know hitting the things that nation owns the daleks
and the plot points make sense.
Changing them, I think has a little to do,
you know, not wanting it to be a continuing thing anyway,
but I think there's something there.
I think that's part of the reason these things have changed.
I want evidence for this because I'm sceptical.
It's a strange set of choices,
what has and hasn't been kept here.
And I really, really, I can't tell you how much I've re-evaluated the TV serial, which is so much better than I realised, because it's darker and it does, although it's a, you know, it's a kid's show, it's treating its audience with a huge amount more respect than this.
But yes, they're going for something slightly different in this. And I think that's what lies behind the changes they've made, because there's no way they can have made this Doctor Who slightly different spelling or changes to the background of the character to avoid copyright. It's not enough.
But nor is it, even if they made those changes possible, they could have done this without cooperation from the BBC because they have used the Dalek design, which isn't owned by Terry Nation.
So there has to have been a deal done for that as well.
I think, although I mean, I take your point that the creation of the doctor and Ian and Susan and Barbara, Ian and Barbara's teachers and all the rest of it does come from another writer's story.
I think they have simply decided that their version is better, that they would rather the Doctor is not a mysterious alien. He's just a kooky human inventor.
It's very British. I mean, that's a very British stereotype, the British eccentric inventor. I mean, looking at Cavour in First Man in the Moon and that sort of mold that we have.
Yes, I get that.
They have been aimed at a different market, like the Americans.
I'm sure it was because that was obviously a disappointment of this film.
The fact that it didn't work over your side of the pond because to,
you know, to somewhat to my shame,
the Brits all flocked to the cinema to watch this shite.
But, you know,
those changes that they made were probably expedient in getting into the
story because in a way they've got to remake an unearthly child to
they've got to introduce the Doctor and his companions and the whole time space machine
setup and I mean I think An Unearthly Child is it it remains one of the absolute best
Doctor Who stories it's I watch every year and I'm still astounded by how good it is
you're talking about just the part one on An Unearthly Child just yeah just that just the
just that 25 minutes of setup with with Ian and Barbara as as the as the nosy teachers going and
investigating this this girl who who appears to be she doesn't have anyone looking after her
and she doesn't appear to be properly looked after in a you know in a normal household and
and this very mysterious home life and and the background to this is of course that she is
herself terribly alien which you know carol ann ford is just is is brilliant at and and the alienness
is also you know although hartnell is the least favorite of my doctors it's the essence of his
performance and and and and cushing as this as this human doctor who just happens to have somehow
come up with this time and space machine, has none of the kind of alienness or darkness,
the non-humanness of Hartnell. He's, if anything, because in one of the pleasures of the serial is
that there is this kind of, there's still this tension existing between the teachers who
absolutely don't trust the doctor and the doctor himself who is this mischievous and uh kind of
um arrogance not quite the word i'm looking for but but um he he he has a certain amount of
disdain for you know these these humans it takes yes he takes it takes a while to even warm up to
them so that so there's this this fantastic tension going on and the doctor by by faking
the yeah yeah the failure of the fluidly does something really pretty terrible because he
wait wait wait wait wait wait he risks everyone's lives wait wait wait wait i wanted to talk about
that in the serial okay i want you i want since you just watched it i want you to tell me because
it sounds like you just contradicted what i thought my impression was that in the serial
he did not fake the the damage to the fluid link he did damage the fluid link he did put their lives
in jeopardy to achieve this goal he drained the mercury out or whatever he did he actually
destroyed the component as opposed to in this where it's very clear that he only pretended
to damage the component which is a big difference you may you may be right although if so there is
a continuity error because in episode seven ian just picks up the fluid link and they go back to
the tardis without looking for it unless unless at some unless at some point there was some way of
repairing it but i i'm not actually sure that makes any difference the point is by the time
they're prisoners of the Daleks they have radiation poisoning and they're highly likely to be
exterminated and that's in that is consistent with the the kind of the Hartnell doctor he is like
he is a a man of mischief and he is he he has little he has little value for the lives of his
companions he does value Susan's life and I'm sure he feels guilty for putting her in danger
but he you know he is not a he's not a responsible man he's not a good man and that's the opposite of
Cushing's performance although it struck me actually in a in a slightly different way than
I think you must have viewed this what Cushing does is actually although they don't dwell on it
and there are no repercussions for it is much more manipulative because he lets ian try to launch
the tardis knowing full well that he has sabotaged it and that it won't do anything so where where
hartnell does it as almost a spur of the moment thing he says oh the fluid link is damaged we
can't possibly launch the TARDIS. Cushing has done this premeditated thing of basically
sabotaging the machine, going through this charade of letting them think that they are going to go
back to London and safety. But in fact, knowing all along that there is no way that that can
happen and pretending then to be surprised by it and that, you know, he comes up with the
and oh isn't you know isn't he good for doing that so you're right i think it's i i see it
different so and i'd have to go back and watch again to make sure but i think that he quote
unquote sabotages the fluid link before the thals knock on the door would that be a am i remembering
that correctly yes okay so at the point that he quote unquote sabotages it the planet is dead
There's a city. They don't see anybody in the city. They think the planet is dead. They want to go take a look at it. I'm not saying it's reasonable to assume that there is no life on this planet. But on the other hand, it kind of looks like there's no life on this planet. And so staying around for a few more hours to do a little more sightseeing isn't all that risky or wouldn't.
Don't try to justify it.
No, no, no, I'm not trying to justify.
Well, I'm not trying to justify that.
He lies.
He's completely manipulative.
He decides to take a risk with their lives.
It's not the same risk because he's wrong.
If the other doctor, if the real doctor did damage the fluid link, truly damage the fluid link, leaving them stuck there without the fluid,
then he's taken a much greater gamble on the assumption that he would be able to repair the TARDIS.
And that seems like far more reckless and dangerous thing to do to me.
Now, if he didn't actually damage it, then Cushing doesn't come clean.
The thal locks on the door, actually, you know what?
Oh, look, I found another fluid link.
Yeah, I found another fluid link.
Or, oh, this was loose, or whatever.
He could cover that up and it never be known what he'd done.
Or in fact, he could come clean and say, oh, well, you know, when there was no risk, I was going to manipulate you in this way.
But as it turns out, maybe you're right.
There are any number of ways that he could have.
I'm not saying either is good.
I just kind of think one is more risky than the other.
They both end up to the same level of risk, except for if the fluid link is truly damaged.
There is both the risk of going out there and the risk of not being able to get the fluid link sick, as opposed to the risk of manipulating them and going out to find it.
And the doctor, either way, the other doctor is doing the same manipulation to get them to go out and do what he wants.
So, I mean, it's bad.
I just think it's interesting that they made it very clear that it's really not damaged in this one so that it seems more more like a harmless deception as opposed to a potentially harmful deception.
I think it's very key. Right. No, I agree. I agree on that because I think now very keen to indicate that there are no.
It's part of mitigating the darkness of the actual story.
They are very keen to indicate that there are no really bad things happening.
So the obvious one is that when Thingamius, whatever his name is,
I get Terry Nation names completely mixed up.
Except for Tarrant.
Tarrant is the easiest one to remember.
He always has a Tarrant.
There wasn't a Tarrant in this, was there?
I know.
There wasn't.
Stolishing.
Um...
The one who decides he wants to turn back cuts himself from the rope that is tied to Ian.
And then in the film, miraculously, lands an outcrop from which he can rapidly crawl back up.
And everyone is, oh, thank goodness, that's all fine.
I mean, that was the most egregious example of it in the film.
But all the way through, I think there is a kind of, at worst, the doctor seems ineffectual.
So another example is when Ian gets stuck inside the Dalek casing.
A little bit of irritating nonsense, supposed to build tension or whatever.
But from the point of view of the serial, it does create a lovely moment where the doctor takes Susan and Barbara and, you know, in fairness, at Ian's urging.
But he doesn't need much persuading. He takes them to safety because he can see that Ian is toast, basically.
And, you know, it's only a couple of episodes since he was ready to bash a caveman on the head.
So that's very much consistent, whereas they don't play it that way in the film.
It's much more like they're happy for him to just be this ineffectual doddery old man rather than this rather cunning and ruthless old man.
And it basically reduces the doctor, I think.
The doctor just becomes this kind of cuddly grandpa who saves the day, basically.
He's the magic ground.
He's the Jeremy Corbyn of Doctor Who.
I'll put this out there then.
Who is the star of this film?
I mean, Peter Cushing obviously had Tom Billing
because of the biggest name.
It's Cushing.
But really not.
I mean...
No, no, no.
It definitely is Cushing.
So watch the serial and another thing becomes apparent.
Yeah, yeah.
It's William Russell.
and and and you know he's flipping amazing i mean the scene where he's clinging to that rope ledge
which you know is you know six inches off the studio ground or whatever he's giving it everything
now in in the film where where you have um so uh oh let's think there's there's um the the there's
There's the speech where one of the Thales asks, why do the Daleks want to kill us?
And Ian basically explains, because they're fascists.
They hate people who are different from them.
And in the film, the Thales ask the question, Peter Cushing gets to give the answer.
Worse still, when they're having the big and really rather interesting discussion about pacifism with the Thales and and they decide to to solve it in the somewhat sexist way of appealing to the Thales chauvinism.
It's Ian who comes up with that idea. And he, you know, he puts his chin in the line of a thal's fist in aid of everyone's mutual benefit. But in the film, it's got to be Cushing who comes up with the clever idea, even though it's still Ian's chin that's in the firing line.
okay now wait a minute i i mean yes obviously there's there's absolutely no doubt peter cushing
the big star has the top billing name in the name of the episode along with the daleks
what my point was is that when watching the daleks it's very clear that ian is the hero he's the
agency the doctor is a plot complication such as destroying the fluid link and he's also a resource
but in this even though Cushing gets the lines and his agency is not at the same level
as as Ian's was and and it diffuses this across this it it just doesn't really seem like
Cushing is getting this the the full I'm the star of the film treatment but as you say
all of the stuff is kind of given to him it's it's done in such an ineffectual and kind of
diffuse way and it just but that's because the essence of the essence of the story is written
around ian as the hero and and you're i mean you're absolutely right the changes that they
have made diminish that and therefore diminish the film because you can't just switch the hero
without rewriting the story properly.
And they haven't done that.
So I agree.
But that's the problem with the character changes that they've made
because Ian is no longer the concerned teacher and young hero.
He's the light relief, the comedy boyfriend.
And I mean, I think to an extent it suffers from the changes
to the character of all of them.
Cushing has been made into cuddly grandpa, so that diminishes his character.
Susan, and I mean, Roberta Tovey gives a reasonable performance in the role,
but she's no longer the interesting alien.
She no longer has the kind of same passionate connection with the Thals,
and she's no longer quite as riled up by the injustice.
She's more someone who is there for Cushing to protect.
Making her younger switches that too.
Yes, yes, exactly.
Exactly so.
And Barbara doesn't get to take that place.
Barbara gets nothing.
No, but I mean, Barbara is absolutely a nothing in this.
And she's supposed to be the doctor.
He's not the doctor, is he?
He's supposed to be the doctor who's number of times you've said that in the freehand world.
God, it just jars me so much.
But okay, she is doctor who's granddaughter as well.
And yet there is zero chemistry between them.
I mean, there is this mystery.
There is this mild curiosity in a junkyard,
which comes about from why is this girl living inside a police box,
inside a junkyard, and who with, and all the rest of it.
And instead of that, we have a setup where the young girl
is being looked after by her grandfather on his own.
And it's maybe not as unusual, but it's still it begs the question of, well, how's that come about?
Are they on their on?
On them?
Well, is there is you think there's a Mrs. Who?
Or there might be his daughter or his son.
And they were just, you know, off doing something that night.
I mean, we only see their home life for a very short period of time before they hop in the TARDIS.
There's no reference to it.
I mean, obviously there's 80 minutes, not something you want to spend time on.
But it just and yeah, the character of the character of Barbara is nothing.
And God, Jacqueline Hill in this serial is again, you know, she's just superb.
And also, goodness me, in in Thal trousers.
Wow.
I keep I keep forgetting when when the Thals turn up in their costumes,
which there is still slightly odd in the TV serial,
but nothing as bad as the kind of nylon hair in the film.
Why the style trousers, I kind of think,
something interesting.
I remember it's because come episode four,
Barbara's going to be wearing a pair.
And boy, oh boy.
Yeah.
I don't remember that.
It's been a long time since I watched the Daleks,
I have to say.
The other thing, while we're on the things that they've changed in the story, but which they make changes and they don't make sense.
The really egregious one, I think you've alluded to it in your synopsis.
And it bugged me for just pretty much the whole film because I thought, surely, surely they're not just going to leave that.
this thing in
Doctor Who's
Yard
which is somehow bigger on the inside
than the outside is in the shape of a
police box
It's what he had handy
Why?
Because literally think
about all of the things that they could have
had from the TV series
that they've discarded. There's the theme music
There's
the whole
there's the whole alien thing there's the there's the iconic tardis interior and again all the kind
of design stuff well of all of that that what what the bbc did with bbc owns the inside of the
but they did not own the outside well it just makes no sense they they clearly thought that
the interior of the tardis that they had created was superior and it's just awful or cheaper
because they didn't have to license that from the BBC.
Right?
BBC didn't own the license on the shape of a police box in 1960 whatever.
That came much later after police boxes were completely gone
and then the BBC snatched up that, whether, I don't know, it's a trademark or whatever it is.
But back then, police box, police box, anybody could have used it.
Inside, BBC design copyright.
I think it's just that.
And also, you know, colour, doodads, widescreen.
Yeah, but it's not as good.
I agree.
I don't know.
We've seen now recreations of the original TARDIS on colour in widescreen.
And they look pretty tasty.
I think, you know, they might have had to build their own thing.
But I just don't think they had the designers on this.
Because I think you see that from the design of the Dalek City.
it's it's garish uh you know the the the all of the the cameras and everything they they they
they look bad the whole thing just looks bad it looks bad it is bad i really it's not it's not
practical okay not practical i'm gonna admit this right now and i do have a i have a dislike of
science fiction design that makes no sense like my constant rant about weird shaped doors
You know, what's wrong with a rectangular door?
I don't know
But here
It's the concept
The city of the Daleks in the Daleks
Has these weird shaped corridors
Right, and I'm not picking on the doors
In this one, that's not what I'm getting at
That's just something, you go to Battlestar Galactica
You go to all these shows
Babylon 5, they just put the weirdest
Shaped damn doors
To make it look spacey
It makes sense if your alien race
Looks like a teepee
right that maybe your doors would be kind of angular shaped like that because that's well i
think it looks like there's an in in the daleks it looks like there is an engineering reason for
the shape of those doors i agree and then i'm not i guess i'm not picking on their doors what i'm
saying though is that normally i hate it when they put something stupidly impractical in a show
from the design standpoint just because they think it looks cool and but in this they had one thing
that every time I saw it, I thought, I really, really like that design.
It's stupid, but I really like it.
And that was the rotating command console in the Dalek headquarters.
The big sort of, I don't know whether it was a hexagon or whatever shape,
like the old style clocks, and turned around for different displays.
I thought, that is imaginative.
And maybe it makes sense if you're a shorter creature and you're kind of looking up.
I'm not 100% sure there.
but i but i liked it every time i saw it okay that's definitely different whether or not it
has any practical value or you know the cords would get twisted up as you're running around
anyway but i don't know if they had wireless technology back there but but but nonetheless
uh other than that yeah i kind of agree the design was generally they had lava lamps in it for
goodness oh yeah well you gotta have lava lamps it's the 60s um and the tiles the tiles just
they would they look awful i did have a hard time saying beautiful in the uh in the description
i know the thals are supposed to be golden beautiful people they are very comical with
plastic hair they are very comical in this um and and they the level of acting was just dire
goodness me but
yeah
I know they might not have wanted to show up
the leads but
yes
there's
it's tough to act in that makeup
that's all
it's just tough to act in that makeup
that must be what it is
let's see
what else have we got
well there are a few plot differences
and they're quite minor
but I'm quite interested in them because obviously, as we've said,
the plot follows it beat by beat.
So why did they change them?
So one thing is, and I think I'm right about this,
in The Daleks, I don't think at any point the Daleks make as an aspiration
that they want to leave their travel machines.
Now, I may have missed something.
I would have to re-watch it again because I watched the film afterwards,
almost after watching most of it but in the film they make at least two references
to to that in in fairness it it's a reason for taking the anti-radiation drug so maybe that
fixes something because then you know the whole point about the way they are that is at least as
set up in the kind of post post genesis um history of scarrow is is to do with um being
able to survive in a in an irradiated environment but i think that uh you kind of mentioned it
earlier in the discussion i mean you know it's very hard to come to the daleks without thinking
of the Daleks as they are now.
So, you know, going back and looking at, say,
Capaldi's Into the Dalek, where we get in there
and, you know, these two are fused man,
beast and machine sensory inputs.
I don't think, even back into the Daleks
in the original story, I think they were supposed
to be little machines that a little mutated creature
was sitting in and working controls i don't i don't think they were supposed to be wired into
those machines quite as integrally as you know we know them to be now so you know getting into
the dalek machine yes it's too small based on the size of the thing you got out i did put it's more
it's more the aspirations the idea that they ever could i put that in my recap because it was
kind of obvious about the whole aspiration to get out of the machine my recollection was that
their aspiration was to get out of the city in the original series oh yes yes as opposed to
hopping out of the machine you assume that they want to do that within their within their machines
that provide all their life support and guns and all the rest but the life support being to protect
them from the environment that they that they're trapped in so i mean i can i can see that as a
an aspiration especially given the notion that the daleks think that they're pretty normal and that
the thals are hideous mutations right i mean that's from the original daleks too as i recall
so you know the daleks think we're just normal people sitting in these protective suits i can
see thinking maybe you know once we get everything back under control we kill off all the others
we can hop out and start having dances again and whatever but um i think but i don't recall
it's explicit there is this nonsense of the of the having been they've mutated the styles of
they both used to look like the styles and they've mutated and circle the styles have mutated back
somehow which is kind of you know the uh the stupid science dick does come out in force in
certain but the form of the static electricity legs you know the two hands two legs that's
obviously the most efficient form for survival so and clearly that's where we got i love that
speech that i think that i think that's just the film um as far as i remember but i think that is
yes i think that is um i think the thals didn't the thals think they were hideously mutated too
or is i getting that from a twilight zone or something in the cereal weren't they embarrassed
by what they look like no i don't i don't think so okay i i could be wrong there that's that's
it's definitely the case the daleks refer to the thals as being mutations but um i i'm never quite
sure whether the sals know what the daleks look like because in the earlier scenes it it there's
nothing there's nothing in what they say that indicates that they have any sense of the daleks
as being these kind of machine creatures and the the doctor and his companions don't really explain
that at least on camera and then when the sals turn up they don't appear to be terribly surprised
by what the Daleks look like.
But then on the other hand,
they're basically being exterminated.
So they might think that takes priority.
I don't know.
What do you think of the CO2 canister guns
that the Daleks have?
Oh, yeah.
Again, I mean, comes back to partly design
because the Dalek gun effect in the TV series
is so clever and so iconic and also really cheap.
And especially back in the Daleks, yeah.
I think that the film was supposed to be flamethrowers
rather than fire extinguishers.
Apparently that was too dangerous.
Yeah, who'd have thought it?
But also apparently there was an element of, again,
it being too horrific.
So again, they're toning it down.
So one way or another, it's the lack of imagination
compared with the kind of namby-pamby version of the story.
It's a massive downgrade.
I mean, apparently there are other...
Well, there's the kind of jar-opening attachment
that some of the Daleks have that is a bit rubbish.
But there are other design differences within the Daleks,
but they're not major design differences, I don't think,
because apparently the Daleks in this film first appeared in the chase.
In the chase, yeah.
That was made after the film,
but for which the BBC hired the props from the film.
And then because their schedule was much faster,
broadcast before the film got released in cinemas.
Yeah, but you couldn't tell because they were black and white.
Yeah, you certainly didn't get the colours.
Do we know if those Daleks, the scenes with those Daleks survived from the missing episodes?
I don't know the answer to that.
The chase isn't entire, right?
Or is the chase entirely there?
No.
No, no.
No, is the chase entirely there?
I don't know.
It's the Dalek master plan that's not.
Dalek master plan is definitely not.
No, the chase must exist.
That's where Ian and Barbara leave, isn't it?
Yes, it is.
It exists.
I mean, both serials, there are episodes that exist.
I think probably with the chase, it's all of them.
I think it is all of them now that you mention it.
So I'd be interested to go back and watch that and figure out where those Daleks are in that story.
I do think, you know, this does point out, yes, the Daleks are kind of meh in this, but the Daleks are kind of meh in the Daleks too.
They're not very bright.
They're, they're clearly, they're, you know, outside the city.
They're no threat at all if they didn't have a nuclear bomb.
And it is just all the changes that they've made over the years because the Daleks were popular.
I really wish they'd never gotten off this planet, frankly.
I mean, I know it's probably what made Doctor Who last, but I wish this had been the end of them.
um i i i think that i think the reason that i had a poor view of this as a serial was because i was
coming to it when i watched it on previous occasions as a as a thinking about it as a dalek
story and you're right it's not a very good dalek story but the point we started with is that this
is what launched dalek mania this is why the film is based on this story because the cinema goers
going to the cinema from Dalek Mania and it's purely that concept and that you know that design
seeing that that that's enough it does it doesn't have to be any better than that and then for there
to be good sequels it does have to be better than that and for the for the Daleks to have any
longevity they have to be brought back in stories that improve on it I think the Dalek invasion of
Earth is an extremely good story and it is reason in itself why it was worth their leaving Scarrow
and then obviously there are there are later stories such as Genesis that are that are also
significantly better than than the Daleks as a Dalek story so I you've almost named all of them
though almost that are better there are others um but mostly they're 21st century ones
the the the thing is that i i think that this this story viewed as a dalek story is not
in in terms of dalek stories is not the best story but in order to appreciate why it had the
impact it did you have to imagine a world where no one had ever seen a dalek well that's what
happened when they took it to america and didn't fly did not fly uh so they don't they don't fly
until uh remembrance of the daleks i believe i were sorry yeah they uh were planning on making
I guess they'd purchased
even though the stories didn't necessarily exist
I'm not exactly sure the timeline here
but they were planning on making this and two sequels
to this story
so obviously Dalek Invasion Earth
is one of them
and what would the other have been?
I don't know
would it have been the chase?
I don't know
well the Dalek Master Plan must have come before the chase
I don't
I don't think it was the Dalek master plan.
Didn't the...
Oh, no, no, you're right.
You're right.
The Dalek master plan was Stephen and...
Stephen and Froyo or Dodo or someone.
Stephen is introduced in The Chase.
That's his first...
Twice.
As a cowboy too, isn't he?
Well, that's...
It depends whether you're talking about Peter Kervis or Stephen.
He's the cowboy on the Empire State Building.
Yes.
But that's not Stephen.
right right right um so if that was the plan why did i end it with the romans cliffhanger
cliffhanger i really i know it's there to give roy castle more opportunity to show some of his
brilliant comic genius um uh wow i i said that my brain just went i don't know i i that's not right
is it? I mean, you have Roy Castle in it
doing all the flipping... Who is
Roy Castle? Why did he
not bring his trumpet? That's what I want
to know. Who is he?
He should have ended it by playing
record breakers on the trumpet.
Who is Roy Castle?
Yeah, is he a musician? I guess certain things
haven't crossed the channel.
We had a show
which
featured people every week
trying to break
very silly records.
for the most number of people to stand in a yogurt pot or something.
Okay.
They obviously had to come up with records to break each week.
Roy Castle presented it,
and that's pretty much the main thing that he is famous for.
Is that before this?
No, it'd be after.
After this, okay.
Yeah, yeah.
I mean, he'd done some other acting in this kind of thing.
But he could play, he always played the trumpet.
He played the theme tune to Record Breakers.
It was great.
He was very good at it.
The trumpet or hosting.
No, yeah, the whole, you know,
he's a very kind of entertaining personality.
I just think he was poorly served
by what he was given to do here.
it was not necessarily who I would have cast in the role of Ian.
I mean, the question arises,
why on earth didn't they cast William Russell
and then William Hartnell?
I mean, apparently Hartnell was really, really pissed off
that they made a film with someone else playing his role,
as I think I can fully understand.
I, yeah, I can kind of see that.
although you know you are creating hartnell had done dozens of of films at this point yeah no i
didn't think he was i didn't mean you know in any way that he was not capable of doing the job or
anything of that sort it's just like i can understand why the producers want to make it as
clean as they can while still capitalizing on what they can and uh again you take it overseas
I mean, Peter Cushing has done such good work.
He's so good.
And he's awful in this.
He's just dire.
It's not good.
It isn't good.
And I agree.
I love Peter Cushing.
I've seen Peter Cushing even in roles.
I wouldn't say exactly like this, but I've seen Peter Cushing in roles a little bit like this.
And he's perfectly good at it.
But this one is just way over the top.
And he can do dark as well.
I mean, that's the thing.
Yeah.
So, I don't know.
But I guess where I would have ended it,
I think that if I were doing this,
I would have either had them step out in the backyard of the house,
or I would have not shown what was outside the door when he opened it.
Just open the door and fade out.
Because if they knew they were going to be making another Dalek story as the sequel,
which apparently they did
that they were making Dalek movies
why throw this red herring
that's never going to come to fruition
out there
okay it's a cliffhanger
it's a cliffhanger we're not going to see the end of
and I know Stephen Moffat loves to do that
I'm sure that in the next episode
the first thing they're going to say is
thank goodness we got away from those Roman soldiers
ha ha
but still
you cannot blame Stephen Moffat for this film
I am not blaming Stephen Moffat for this film, but I can see that maybe that's where he got the idea from.
He did something quite nice with this film.
I mean, if you're going to acknowledge the existence of the film.
Are you saying that he created the new Paradigm Daleks?
No, no.
I wonder if they were inspired by the lurid Daleks in this.
in the novelization of day of the doctor moffat has uh kate stewart explained to clara that the
peter cushing doctor who movies were based on the doctor's exploits and that peter cushing was
actually a friend of the doctor to whom he lent a coat so i think if you're going to have this kind
of parallel non-canon thing it's quite a neat little explanation for it although it is going
to get somewhat circular at some point because the film does credit terry nation and terry nation
obviously did write for a tv series of doctor who but um maybe no worse than in remembrance of the
daleks when the continuity announcer comes on the telly well perhaps the uh perhaps it's uh
you know instead of in the real doctor who universe perhaps the writers of the film were
inspired by ian and barbara telling their tales because they would have been part of both of them
so you know maybe they're the writers maybe maybe barbara did that she seems like a writer
yeah well no it would have been it would have been it would have been peter cushing
telling telling i guess it could have been peter cushing yeah what his mate the doctor had been
up to so then well yeah huh makes you wonder which doctor was his friend because it might
not be Hartnell.
Well, who would have suited the coat
that he was wearing?
It's more of a Pertwee, isn't it?
Isn't it a velvety?
That's kind of quite Hartnell
stroke McGann, isn't it?
Maybe it's McGann.
That's kind of funny.
Pity we haven't got to...
I have to read the novelization.
Yeah.
I don't know that I have anything else.
I mean, I have the threat
to hang over that we are going to look
at the Dalek Invasion film.
which you know i'm sure gets the entire group back together for more adventures
in space and time filmed only one year later yeah i mean obviously all the same actors will
be available for that clearly of course they will if they could have that ending they could
have set it up opening the doors of the of the tardis onto the the burnt out city that would
have been quite see they could have done that or they were going to do the sequel you you could
have made it their backyard burnt out yeah you step out in their yard and then and like it's a
ruin i can't remember what their yard looked like and i only watched the film two days ago well but
you would have at the end of the film when they step back out you would have recognized the same
location if they just overgrown and put some crumbled walls around it or something and then
end of the film there um but then it would have just looked like they'd had a house fire it
wouldn't have had the same could have been the blitz wouldn't have had the same drama i i well
yeah but i what if the blitz is ian climbing the wall so it's drama but yeah the the point is it's
doctor who you have to end on a cliffhanger every episode ends on a cliffhanger it's it's just as
you say the difference is in the tv serials they always lead into the next serial whereas here it
it doesn't it doesn't go anywhere you know they missed something they missed something important
i say this with only a hint of flippancy roy castles ian when he saw the romans should have
run back into the tardis and instead of trying to climb the walls he should have leapt into the
doctor's arms like scooby-doo and shaggy or or or laurel and hardy or something that that that
that would have fit the ending of this film more more certainly yes it's certainly it's that's
pretty much the characterization they were going for with ian yeah uh got nothing else
on this unless uh unless you've got something no i'm i'm done with it
this will be your christmas viewing from now on every year christmas the two films back to back
no that that's it i don't ever have to watch it again
well thank you for joining me it's a pleasure as always and listeners i do hope you'll join
us all again next time on fusion patrol we hope you've enjoyed listening to fusion patrol
a listener-supported podcast.
There are over 500 previous episodes
available at FusionPatrol.com.
Come join the conversation
on Twitter, our website, or Facebook.
Find out how you can become a supporter
at Patreon.com
slash Fusion Patrol.
Supporters get early access
to all regular episodes,
bonus episodes, and more.
There's even an optional podcast series
where we're looking at the classic TV series
Babylon 5.
Our music is Fight the Future by Amber Wolf.
This has been a Lone Locust production.
On the next episode of Fusion Patrol,
John and I will begin looking at the groundbreaking
1966 Japanese sci-fi fantasy teleseries,
Ultra Q, created by the legendary FX pioneer
and creator of Godzilla, Eiji Tsuburaya.
We'll be looking at the very first episode
Defeat Gomez
Come join the conversation
on Fusion Patrol