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Find out how you can help support us at patreon.com slash fusion patrol.

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This is the Fusion Patrol podcast.

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Each week, we look at a different science fiction TV episode or movie

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and overanalyze it to within an inch of its life.

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Welcome to the discussion.

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Hello and welcome to another episode of Fusion Patrol. I'm Eugene.

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And I'm Simon.

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And tonight we're going to be looking at the Doctor Who episode, Can You Hear Me?

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The year is 1380 in the Syrian city of Aleppo, and Tahira, a mentally ill woman who gets her kicks by stealing things, is returning hastily to the hospital she is staying
in.

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She asks Miriam, a hospital worker, if she's prepared for the coming of the things, but she hasn't because they don't believe her.

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Big mistake! The monsters come and take them away.

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The doctor returns Yaz for something at a particular date and time.

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She's close. She only misses by 77 minutes.

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The gang leave the doctor to spend a single day catching up on their lives.

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For the doctor, time weighs heavily on her hands until, unbeknownst to her,

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a mysterious man in black appears briefly in the TARDIS,

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followed by a noise coming from 1380 Aleppo, which she decides to check out.

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She arrives in the empty hospital and waxes poetic to the audience

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about how enlightened Islamic 14th century mental health care was,

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as you do. She encounters Tahira, cowering in fear, and one of the monsters, hereafter referred

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to as Chagasca. Actually, I'm kidding, I'm not going to mention them again. Which runs away when

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Tahira tells it to leave the doctor alone. There are not many clues to be found, but luckily every

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last member of the gang calls at this exact moment. They've all been reconnecting with their

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disinteresting lives, and something weird has happened. Ryan's friend has been having bad

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dreams and now is seeing the mysterious man in black from his dreams in his room. Yaz had a dream

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and saw the same man in black in her parents' flat. And Graham had a telepathic call for help

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from a woman trapped in an orb projected into his brain. The telepathic call, not the orb.

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All together in the TARDIS, along with Tahira, they plug Graham into the telepathic circuits and

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off they go to an orbiting space platform, which is monitoring what appears to be the collision

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of two planets, somehow suspended at the last moment by the very orb Graham saw in his psychic

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episode. It's a prison! Never one to miss the opportunity to rescue someone locked up in a

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prison without doing any research, the doctor sets about using the TARDIS to free the woman inside.

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The man in black now captures Tahira and the gang and sets them to dreaming their nightmares.

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He confronts the doctors, explaining that he is zealot, and he is one of the immortals,

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and that playing with the nightmares of humans passes the time for him.

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She's got him thwarted though.

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She's released the prisoner he was holding in the orb because she's clever.

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Except the doctor has forgotten occasionally prisons are actually to incarcerate naughty people.

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In this case, the naughty one is Zelin's partner in crime, another immortal.

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Between them, they caused untold suffering to the people of the two worlds

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until they rose up and imprisoned the worst of the two immortals in the orb.

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Oops, the doctor has been played for a fool.

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Zelen needed someone clever enough to unlock the prison so that his partner could escape.

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The doctor is captured and placed with the others,

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while the immortals go to Earth and cause tasty nightmares.

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But the doctor soon escapes and, with very little effort,

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imprisons both the immortals back into the orb.

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Oh, and Ryan convinces his friend to get mental health.

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Yaz remembers the time she needed mental help.

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And Graham opens up to the doctor about his fear of cancer returning.

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It is a heartfelt plea for connection and help, which the doctor bungles spectacularly.

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Our heroes leave to destroy Big Finish's story, The Company of Friends.

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The end.

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All right.

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Gosh, how am I going to phrase this?

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I have it written down here.

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You know, what the heck, people.

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I'm just going to get out the bleep machine and I'm going to read my sentence as spoken when the episode ended.

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For f***'s sake, Chibbers, do you own any tools except a hammer?

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You can fill in the bleep, folks, for what you think I said at that point.

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So what did you think of Can You Hear Me, Simon?

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Well, I was very impressed with it.

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Okay.

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Although there are points at which I might have some sympathy with your criticism,

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I think on the whole, I thought it was quite sensitively done and quite impressive.

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Okay.

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I will say this.

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The episode played better the second time, which is rare this year,

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Um, because some of the things that were just sort of there did in fact make sense in context after you had the whole thing replayed.

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So I will give them that, that unlike many other stories where when you watch it again, the stuff that happened earlier seems to bear no connection to the stuff at the end.

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This one was a little bit better.

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For example, I'm skipping ahead of my notes, but Tebow's problems.

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You could be forgiven when watching it for thinking that his problems were caused by the fact that he's having weird nightmares as the episode goes through.

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And then when he gets to the end and it's all solved and suddenly his house is spick and span again because everything's fine.

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We've solved the problem of the nightmares.

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They're gone.

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The guy in black was causing it.

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It's no big deal.

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He's cleaned up the house.

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Everything's good.

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It's like everything's set back in order.

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And then suddenly Ryan goes, but you know, you got to go get help.

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It's like, why does he need to go get help now?

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It seems like you solved the problem.

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You watch it the second time through.

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It's more obvious that he was having problems before the nightmare.

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But it's not, it's not quite clear because you just don't know what the heck's going.

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You don't know who this guy is.

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You don't know what, you know, you know nothing about him when Ryan shows up at the door.

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other than he's, I don't know, I wasn't even sure if he was a friend or a family or, you know,

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at a distance, I thought it was his dad. Before you get a close-up shot on him, when he's at the

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door, right? And he's knocking and a face pops out and you're like, does he go see his dad?

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That seems strange, but okay. Oh, no, no, it's somebody else. We don't know.

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So because we have no backstory and you're just plunked right into it, it's hard to pick up any

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context on the on the guy until you come to the end and then come back and and the same is true

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with yaz's situation her nightmares don't make any sense until you finally figure out what it's all

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about and then then his night her nightmares do actually make sense so i'll give him that um

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so i i didn't hate it don't get me wrong i didn't hate it i do i do feel like it's just so

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you know, where's, they've got a checklist in the office, like a global warming,

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plastic pollution, check mental health problems. You know, I don't know what next week's is going

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to be, but I feel like there's going to be a checkbox that we're going to mark off.

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And it's going to be about something. I really don't have a problem with that. I,

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I I've been, I've been critical of the way they've handled global warming.

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Yeah. Oh God. Yes. And, and does it, the, the one thing I will ask though,

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does this the is this one bringing home the theme that is running through this entire season which

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is are the real monsters us because that's pretty much what it's been consistently throughout

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this season i'm not sure we are the problem that's been the scene really so i mean we created

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the plastic we we global warmed um we're you know we're our own worst enemy with a with a creature

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tesla was yes capitalism uh the the edison's mentality against visionary people and the

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sure absolutely the human nature is the problem in this story the monsters are secondary we are

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the monsters has been has been pretty consistently i'm not sure about i'm not i'm not episode because

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it actually had alien no yeah spy problem we're our own worst problem because we create allow the

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social media to steal all our privacy and people are there to do it yeah no it's it's yeah it's

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it's us as a society we're bad we're we're humans we're we're awful i i don't see that

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and i'm just wondering if that's going to prove true for gallifrey as well

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well gallifrey gallifreyans are the monsters as well oh i thought we meant the destruction of

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gallifrey was because humans are terrible which i know it'll be gallifreyans are a substitute for

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humans yeah they're just a metaphor for us well that's a bit inconsistent but but i i i i've got

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to say i think i think in some of those cases you're having to stretch for that i can see

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that i can see with the the two environmentally themed ones the theme is humans are the problem

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i kind of think that's because humans are the problem and you couldn't really do those stories

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without acknowledging that. In the other cases, I'm not sure that, I mean, Tesla is not, it's not

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like the overriding thing is humans are awful because Tesla's a human. And yeah, capitalism

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may be bad, but that's not the same as saying that all humans are terrible or that. Yeah,

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but that's true in the global warming. And it's true in the plastic one. Not all humans are doing

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that but the society that we live in the society that we've created values things that cause

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these problems rather than that's that's not that is tesla's problem token edison represents

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what the world is like and tesla represents what the world could be i think no i think i think i

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I think Edison represents something much more specific and the environmental problems are much more universal.

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Well, in 1901, but anyway.

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So then I'll ask this question.

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If in an episode that clearly is an excuse to talk about mental health, is it a mixed message that the immortals were initially vanquished?

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by two planets committing suicide i don't think they well thought about it is what the answer is

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i don't think they thought about that but no no i don't mean i don't no i i'm i'm i'm just having

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a reason i now i know you could argue that the planets might have been empty right i'll i'll

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i'll take that argument although the doctor did specifically said it's an extinction event

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yes yes no i no i think i think you make a good a good point that that is really what the story

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was i hadn't thought about it in that way partly because they were yes uh

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i don't know why that i don't know why that passed me i probably need to watch watch this

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one for a third time why is it a mixed message i don't think it is a mixed message that uh that

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their problem was basically solved by suicide that's a mixed message i i feel like that's not

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the correct well it was because it didn't maybe imperfectly but the doctor finished the job and

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put the got two of them in instead of the one but it's still their prison it's still their sacrifice

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it's still their death that created the prison but that enabled that that didn't solve their

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problem that didn't solve their problem well in a way it did because they're gone but i mean that's

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But that is, that's just, that's the choice, isn't it?

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I mean, it's just, that's laying out the facts.

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It doesn't present that solution,

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if you can call a solution,

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doesn't present that course of action

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as being one that is a good solution.

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I don't know.

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I'm asking the question.

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I have, don't have an answer to it.

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I just made note of it that...

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It's interesting because I didn't think about it

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because it's a planet-wide issue.

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The two planets, I mean, that must be a load of people

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acting collectively.

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And that's why I didn't make the connection.

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But now I've made the connection.

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I see your point.

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And I think that is the message that's coming across.

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There is an interesting glimmer of an idea that, generally speaking, I would make the argument that killing yourself is probably a bad idea.

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But on the other hand, I believe, you know, in euthanasia, which is, or self-euthanasia, I should say, under certain circumstances.

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So, you know, I can't say it's universally bad.

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television, Doctor Who has had a very long history of people who are willing to go out

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and die to save the day. It's heroic. But it's difficult. I mean, obviously, in television,

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that's not reality. And most people don't go out, don't get the opportunity to go off,

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die heroically saving the universe so and that is what these people have done this is a heroic

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a heroic death but still yes i think it's just not the right story to tell that that sacrifice in

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i think it would have been easier if they had just found another way for that race to have

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imprisoned the immortals and and gone on their way but yeah how how does the how well does it

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work for you when the doctor is on her own in this episode a couple of times i feel like she

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demonstrates how useless the companions are to her in it because she just yes she can just talk

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so it doesn't matter if anybody's listening or paying any attention or doing anything she she

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she does almost treat them like pets at times i think that's been a particular problem through

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this season and by by and large they've they've not been they've not been written with anything

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to do and the story's not really been about them um this is maybe well certainly in yaz's case this

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is a difference in this episode but it bugs me a little bit that the doctor doesn't seem to

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I don't want a TARDIS full of John Nathan Turner style squabbling companions who just

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irritate the Doctor to hell all of the time. But on the other hand, it would be good if they had

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some kind of impact on her equilibrium. And that could be that they push her out of her comfort

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zone. It should be that they push her out of her comfort zone. It shouldn't just be that they are

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there as a sounding board that is you know essentially replaceable with literally a sounding

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board i mean i think you're right she doesn't she doesn't seem to need them there she doesn't seem

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to need them there and i think and and i'm not going to go with one of my favorite companions

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necessarily but certainly a very functional companion was donna noble because she performed

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the function of altering the doctor's behavior yes which was why i loved her because because

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they wrote her in at they wrote her in at a time where the way that the doctor was being written

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was actually getting quite heavily on my nerves in some respects so that the the doctor's kind of

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his arrogance, his God complex, his self-righteousness and his self-pity,

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all of that was kind of punctured by Donna's straight-talking,

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calling it how she sees it, attitude towards him.

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And because he'd had a number of companions who were in awe of him

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slash in love with him, that had just kind of fed this growing complex

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he had donna had none of that so she could cut through it and i'm starting to feel like that's

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what we need somebody to course correct the doctor yes there is not just it's not just the fact that

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that jodie whittaker's doctor is starting to get she's she bit it like you say the way she treats

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the companions is very as if they're as if they're dispensable essentially and she's not

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you know she's not really been terribly respectful of them in the sense of it took her a while to be

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honest with them about why she was feeling mardy and so forth and so i in a way it's almost like

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if you're going to have dispensable companions we'll just have just have the doctor on her own

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that case. I mean, you could pick up... She wouldn't talk less. She wouldn't talk less. And

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in fact, you know, just watching five minutes of a Capaldi episode, I was thinking how effective

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it is when he shuts up. I mean, not that he talked a lot. It's more the contrast between

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the two performances of the Doctor. He's much more reticent and that can be quite interesting.

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The other thing that is really, really starting to bug me about Jodie Whittaker's Doctor is

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she's, and you know, I think it's come through from the way Russell T Davies wrote Tenant's

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Doctor, but it's this unbearable smugness. I'm just that little bit smarter than you thought I was.

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And her performance of it, it's just like nails on a blackboard. It's really, really,

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really irritating i can tell that they're they're setting up for a fall but that that's not going to

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be particularly satisfying because it's it it feels like there is a it's not based on anything

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it's it's not based on anything because in this episode for example she has been outplayed

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so all she is doing effect okay she gets she ends up with two eternals trapped rather than one but

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all she is doing is writing the thing that she screwed up show a bit of humility for goodness

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sake yep yeah and and yeah it's and her her her prattle you know when the eternal is confronting

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her and she's he's rambling on about was it tap dancing this time i don't remember now yeah yeah

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it's like whoever writes that dialogue is not good and i'm wondering if that's chibnall

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contributing to the way the doctor. I don't know. Obviously, I don't know who wrote the particular

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line. I don't necessarily have a problem. I mean, I quite like the line. I don't necessarily have

00:20:33.400 --> 00:20:38.520
the problem with lines like that per se. It's how they're used and it's how they fit in the bigger

00:20:38.780 --> 00:20:47.039
picture. And if it's a line in the context of the doctor is genuinely frightened and is playing

00:20:47.100 --> 00:20:56.160
against that and you know it is this kind of fake bravado then okay bring it on I'm I'm there for

00:20:56.180 --> 00:21:00.860
that but I don't get the sense that that is how this is being written and I certainly don't think

00:21:00.980 --> 00:21:07.300
that's how they're playing it when it comes to the performance and therefore when you know when

00:21:07.440 --> 00:21:15.700
the fall comes it's not going to be it's not going to be that the doctor is loses something that she

00:21:15.720 --> 00:21:22.760
has been working at it's going to be just that she gets her comeuppance for being too big for

00:21:22.760 --> 00:21:31.120
her boots i guess and i i'm not so into that as a storyline yeah so a couple things with regards

00:21:31.250 --> 00:21:36.640
to the the way she treats the companions and and maybe it's just bad direction or maybe it's that

00:21:36.860 --> 00:21:45.680
terrible tardis set i don't know but call to friends i'll come get you next shot tahira's in

00:21:45.700 --> 00:21:52.160
artists the the the gang are all sitting along on the stadium bleachers over to the side or out in

00:21:52.160 --> 00:21:59.640
the audience or whatever it is and presumably the doctor had to pick them all up one at a time

00:22:00.320 --> 00:22:04.940
because they were all in different places right well they were all in and at no point did she

00:22:05.200 --> 00:22:12.380
introduce them until they all got in they all came in had a seat and they're standing around

00:22:12.400 --> 00:22:18.640
for them the doctor go oh tahira this is graham ryan and yes yes it's here like what wouldn't you

00:22:18.660 --> 00:22:23.180
have opened the door yes hey this is tahira yeah yeah graham ryan here here you go this is tahira

00:22:23.380 --> 00:22:29.420
oh graham ryan whichever one it was next yes you know introduce them as they come in but no they

00:22:29.520 --> 00:22:35.480
have this really weird staging as if she just ignored them pick them up had them come in all

00:22:35.640 --> 00:22:40.840
sit around and now that i've gathered you all here together i shall conduct formal introductions

00:22:40.860 --> 00:22:49.460
productions it it it felt kludgy and and badly managed i don't know if that's just staging or

00:22:49.540 --> 00:22:54.880
because of the way the set is that it made sense or what but i i don't like it i don't like them

00:22:54.890 --> 00:23:00.960
all sitting around like that it's been a thing of the last two or three or four episodes it just

00:23:01.140 --> 00:23:09.559
doesn't it's just a bring back the unknown doctors tardis um and the other thing specifically with

00:23:09.580 --> 00:23:15.700
regards to the doctor's interaction with the companions that scene at the end with graham

00:23:16.560 --> 00:23:26.400
was i don't know what it was meant to be but it was disgusting it was horrific they were making

00:23:26.760 --> 00:23:32.320
light of that i i mean i don't know what the point of graham going to the doctor and saying by the

00:23:32.320 --> 00:23:36.980
way dog i'm you know i'm having some fears and things like is that supposed to represent talking

00:23:36.980 --> 00:23:40.340
to a friend, you know, if you're not going to get professional help and go talk to a

00:23:40.420 --> 00:23:47.060
friend, and then the doctor fails him miserably in that there is no connection between the

00:23:47.220 --> 00:23:47.340
two.

00:23:47.860 --> 00:23:49.880
There is no, there is no empathy.

00:23:50.640 --> 00:23:56.820
There is no, uh, you know, oh, well, Graham, I can just hop you to the 24th century to

00:23:56.820 --> 00:23:57.300
a hospital.

00:23:57.400 --> 00:24:01.320
We could check you out and give you the anti-cancer drugs and you'll never have it come back.

00:24:01.960 --> 00:24:02.360
There's nothing.

00:24:03.040 --> 00:24:04.520
There's, there's absolutely nothing.

00:24:05.100 --> 00:24:06.420
It's just like, oh, well, I'm, I'm awkward.

00:24:07.140 --> 00:24:12.960
so i'm not gonna we're not gonna talk about this so i think i understand the point of the scene i'm

00:24:13.080 --> 00:24:21.060
not i didn't think so there's a by and large i think this i think this there there are so many

00:24:21.200 --> 00:24:28.720
things in this episode that i really really liked that these are to me kind of minor things but at

00:24:28.720 --> 00:24:34.100
the same time it's interesting the choices were made like this because i because i looked at it

00:24:33.920 --> 00:24:37.180
And I think, well, you could have made quite different choices and I'm not quite sure why you did.

00:24:37.500 --> 00:24:45.460
The edit that you just picked up, I, you know, I thought I'm generally a fan of edits that keep the pace going or whatever.

00:24:45.580 --> 00:24:50.460
But I did think that one was kludgy. And I also think there's too much in this episode.

00:24:51.260 --> 00:24:58.380
And it might have been better with a bit less and a bit more room to breathe, especially since there's so much good stuff in there to enjoy.

00:24:59.000 --> 00:25:02.020
The scene with Graham and the Doctor at the end,

00:25:02.720 --> 00:25:09.060
that comes straight after what to me was the culmination of the episode.

00:25:09.360 --> 00:25:12.960
I mean, it was just so movingly performed and we can come back to all of that.

00:25:13.360 --> 00:25:15.900
Yeah, I want to save Yaz's story for the last, right?

00:25:16.000 --> 00:25:16.400
Okay, sure.

00:25:16.800 --> 00:25:17.820
The good part of the story.

00:25:18.419 --> 00:25:18.820
Absolutely.

00:25:19.340 --> 00:25:23.480
This scene after it was in the wrong place.

00:25:24.260 --> 00:25:26.240
And so that made it a lot worse.

00:25:26.880 --> 00:25:30.200
I think it's an interesting scene.

00:25:30.880 --> 00:25:37.420
And I think what they're going for is that the doctor herself has social anxiety.

00:25:38.300 --> 00:25:49.040
But I think you're right in the sense that the way that is realised is problematic and is not entirely consistent.

00:25:49.400 --> 00:25:57.060
And, you know, the thing that someone discussing this online posted a clip.

00:25:57.150 --> 00:26:00.040
And obviously, Doctor Who has done mental health before.

00:26:01.460 --> 00:26:04.680
And this was a clip from Vincent and the Doctor.

00:26:05.460 --> 00:26:10.620
And it's the scene in the gallery at the end when the Doctor is comforting Amy.

00:26:10.630 --> 00:26:18.760
And you can't imagine Matt Smith reacting to Graham in the way that Jodie Whittaker reacts to Graham there.

00:26:19.520 --> 00:26:27.180
fair enough and so i feel that they could have expressed the doctor's social awkwardness which

00:26:27.180 --> 00:26:34.080
has often been there certainly you know in the last couple of incarnations and still at the end

00:26:34.080 --> 00:26:39.940
of it had had to give graham a hug i mean that would have been enough for me to it's like you

00:26:40.020 --> 00:26:45.920
can you can you can express the social awkwardness and you can still overcome it within a scene even

00:26:45.940 --> 00:26:55.400
that short yeah i i just i couldn't tell if it was supposed to be comic relief even so um yeah i i

00:26:55.600 --> 00:26:59.940
would have ended what i'm saying i would have ended this episode with yaz walking into the

00:27:00.160 --> 00:27:07.360
police officer's home yeah yeah so done roll end credits maybe even without without music or

00:27:08.420 --> 00:27:12.680
no i wouldn't have gone that far we're not making the same mistakes earth shock made

00:27:13.560 --> 00:27:17.020
yeah but then they could have put a you know suicide prevention line number up or something

00:27:17.520 --> 00:27:24.820
or mental health line which i'm surprised they didn't or maybe they did no they didn't but but

00:27:24.980 --> 00:27:30.720
on the but on the other hand i think because you have socialized care so people can actually go

00:27:30.880 --> 00:27:37.460
get mental health uh care in your country but that's another story why they didn't let i will

00:27:37.400 --> 00:27:42.260
come back come back to that when we talk about yas because i i i think i think i think the reasons

00:27:42.460 --> 00:27:47.540
for that are intertwined with the way that they they present you know some of the some of the

00:27:47.650 --> 00:27:55.740
issues in this in this um but but picking up on that on that question of the ordering of the

00:27:55.930 --> 00:28:02.120
episode i saw another suggestion online which i thought was uh entirely on point which was that

00:28:02.740 --> 00:28:10.160
the cold open and oh yes thank you cold opens are back i thought when we got one for spyfall

00:28:10.220 --> 00:28:15.720
that that was going to be a thing this season and i love a cold open so i was celebrating and it was

00:28:15.800 --> 00:28:22.960
pretty rubbish for spyfall the cold open to this should have been the there are no bogeymen scene

00:28:23.500 --> 00:28:31.180
and you know from the you know she's wrong hands their fingers fly off his hands boom bang into the

00:28:31.160 --> 00:28:37.420
into the opening credits because that would have been proper scary the the aleppo stuff

00:28:38.100 --> 00:28:45.340
was trying to to give you a scare with the cgi monsters and all the rest of it but here's my

00:28:45.460 --> 00:28:53.560
thing about the aleppo stuff why were we in aleppo why did we go to syria at all this episode it

00:28:53.660 --> 00:28:59.780
doesn't need doesn't need syria in it i'm all for going to if we're going to be stuck on earth all

00:28:59.760 --> 00:29:05.940
the time and apparently that's it from now on we never go anywhere else unless it's a brief foray

00:29:06.040 --> 00:29:11.940
onto a platform in deep space if we're going to be stuck on earth from now on i would very much like

00:29:12.140 --> 00:29:18.760
to continue to visit some other locations but we don't have to if we're doing aleppo let's do aleppo

00:29:18.780 --> 00:29:24.679
i mean if this like say this is a two parts if this was a two-part story and and we had room for

00:29:24.700 --> 00:29:31.100
all of this extra story i fine okay we could have part one in syria but instead what we actually had

00:29:32.080 --> 00:29:40.840
was a bit of unnecessary time travel as well as a bit of minor space travel which clearly there

00:29:41.000 --> 00:29:46.940
wasn't any money in the budget for because goodness i mean you've got cgi aleppo and then

00:29:47.560 --> 00:29:53.340
what an awful set inside that asylum i mean goodness me that looks it's not an asylum

00:29:53.360 --> 00:30:00.840
so let's let's be clear there so um but but yeah i i have here why what was the whole point of

00:30:00.940 --> 00:30:09.100
tahira well why is it 14th century syria why i i don't i i think i think it is because they wanted

00:30:09.300 --> 00:30:15.400
to they wanted to include the fact and maybe this came through you know drafts of the script where

00:30:15.400 --> 00:30:22.380
this was some central theme of the story but they wanted to include the fact that the syrians got

00:30:22.440 --> 00:30:28.420
mental health or whatever which is fine it's a nice idea sort of true but not but it's so detached

00:30:29.360 --> 00:30:37.040
see that i i i agree that that feels like somebody and i've had this i've said this many times this

00:30:37.180 --> 00:30:43.140
season somebody sat around with an idea so did you know that they had mental health wards inside

00:30:43.440 --> 00:30:50.900
hospitals in syria going all the way back into the 12th century really well we should definitely

00:30:51.260 --> 00:30:58.940
write that in somehow and it you want to build a story around that i i'm interested it's if they

00:30:58.970 --> 00:31:06.040
had built a story around it but it isn't it's a throwaway it's no that's my fast and and um and

00:31:06.220 --> 00:31:10.120
the other part that bugs me about that is when she comes out she says oh this is a miss by maristan

00:31:10.620 --> 00:31:16.860
did you know that the uh the ancient syrians were very progressive in their mental health care or

00:31:16.840 --> 00:31:24.460
whatever it was she said. That may be true. They did actually consider that there was such a thing

00:31:24.620 --> 00:31:30.000
as mental health care. Although, from what I'm able to tell, some of that's still involved.

00:31:30.140 --> 00:31:40.240
It's probably demon possession. But a Bemeristan is not a mental health institute. It is a hospital

00:31:40.240 --> 00:31:48.580
and it will be broken up into like six or seven different wards in the same hospital.

00:31:48.580 --> 00:31:54.020
It's mental disease, contagious diseases, non-contagious diseases, surgery, medicine, and eye diseases.

00:31:54.960 --> 00:31:58.280
So the doctor plopping into the room and seeing the word bimeristan

00:31:58.440 --> 00:32:00.560
and then launching into mental health care,

00:32:01.180 --> 00:32:06.140
she could be in the contagious disease ward for all she knows.

00:32:06.920 --> 00:32:14.420
You know, they had some really good practices for maintaining non-contagious activities in the hospital.

00:32:14.540 --> 00:32:15.640
But no, they don't.

00:32:15.740 --> 00:32:17.880
She launches into mental health care suddenly.

00:32:18.330 --> 00:32:33.960
And because that was what the writer wanted to make sure that you looked up on the Journal of Royal British Medicine, which I was actually looking at a couple of articles
on to see if this was really true, if they really truly were enlightened.

00:32:35.040 --> 00:32:46.860
And yes, they did put out the canon of medicine in the 12th century, and it was used up through the 18th century, even in Europe, as the go-to book on medical care.

00:32:46.970 --> 00:32:49.200
But that was general medicine.

00:32:50.840 --> 00:32:54.900
They were more advanced than us, us as in Europeans.

00:32:56.760 --> 00:32:58.840
Northern Europeans, I don't even want to break that down.

00:32:58.900 --> 00:33:05.120
But I don't know, I wouldn't have pulled out of this that mental care was their forte.

00:33:05.920 --> 00:33:22.780
No. And I think the issue with that, with the way that is played, is also where your hammer comment, actually, I will accept that there is one small aspect of this episode
where that is true.

00:33:24.279 --> 00:33:28.540
It's signalling what they think the theme of this episode is.

00:33:28.560 --> 00:33:32.840
I know I think I think it is the theme of this episode I don't I'm not arguing that they're wrong

00:33:33.460 --> 00:33:40.440
but at the same time this is a this is a sequel to Enlightenment which is fantastic because

00:33:40.880 --> 00:33:47.360
obviously I love Enlightenment and is it or is it a sequel to the Celestial Toymaker uh well I think

00:33:48.240 --> 00:33:53.679
it's it's a sequel to the it's a sequel to Enlightenment which may be a sequel to the

00:33:53.660 --> 00:34:01.800
Celestial Toymaker according to the New Adventures which this is acknowledging the connection um

00:34:02.920 --> 00:34:10.260
I yeah I guess we could say it's a sequel to both but it's because I thought he was very clear that

00:34:10.260 --> 00:34:16.500
the Eternals and the Guardians and the Toymaker were three separate species of no immortals and

00:34:16.540 --> 00:34:22.120
that I couldn't tell whether he was supposed to be one or of a different type it's it's in it's

00:34:22.139 --> 00:34:27.560
interest it actually is interesting that you that you read it that way i did i did sense there was a

00:34:27.620 --> 00:34:33.040
little bit of ambiguity in it but i read it the opposite way they they are eternals and so is the

00:34:33.159 --> 00:34:41.120
toy maker i mean they are i read it as they are eternals the toy maker watch his line again and

00:34:41.260 --> 00:34:46.960
see because i got the impression he was talking about them the eternals have their stuff the

00:34:46.980 --> 00:34:53.159
guardians have their stuff yeah the toy maker would be proud but he's one of them he sounded

00:34:53.179 --> 00:34:57.780
to me like he's one of the toy maker whatever they are that that is how i took that out of this

00:34:57.880 --> 00:35:06.420
the toy well the toy the toy maker is the toy maker is an eternal an immortal of some kind

00:35:06.620 --> 00:35:11.520
and an eternal but that's only from virgin adventures and we already know that yeah

00:35:11.760 --> 00:35:16.940
doctor who does not necessarily honor that because they're about to mess up but it honors

00:35:16.960 --> 00:35:26.740
But loads of the stuff, loads of the stuff in the new series is is is is stuff that was established there.

00:35:27.340 --> 00:35:29.640
But yeah, he says the Eternals have their games.

00:35:29.680 --> 00:35:31.280
The Guardians have their power struggles.

00:35:31.780 --> 00:35:36.780
For me, this dimension is a beautiful board is a beautiful board for a game.

00:35:36.780 --> 00:35:38.040
The Toymaker would approve.

00:35:39.180 --> 00:35:42.300
I feel like he's more akin to the Toymaker than the other two.

00:35:42.540 --> 00:35:44.200
But but anyhow.

00:35:44.900 --> 00:35:47.880
Well, we Immortals have our games.

00:35:48.060 --> 00:35:50.480
Eternity is long, and we are cursed to see it.

00:35:50.480 --> 00:35:50.940
We Immortals.

00:35:51.600 --> 00:35:51.780
Yes.

00:35:52.440 --> 00:35:59.780
So bigger group set, Immortals, subset Eternals, subset Guardian, subset Toymaker, me and them.

00:36:00.020 --> 00:36:08.180
Yes, but they're not necessarily non-intersecting sets.

00:36:08.780 --> 00:36:12.280
The Eternals, we know the Eternals and the Guardians are different,

00:36:13.180 --> 00:36:16.640
but I think he and the Toymaker are Eternals.

00:36:17.760 --> 00:36:19.800
It probably doesn't matter all that much.

00:36:19.940 --> 00:36:21.340
It's still...

00:36:21.340 --> 00:36:22.400
I think we'll never see him again.

00:36:23.040 --> 00:36:24.880
We'll never see who? The Eternals?

00:36:25.320 --> 00:36:25.760
These two.

00:36:26.350 --> 00:36:27.900
Oh, no. I mean, no, no, they're done.

00:36:28.060 --> 00:36:29.340
This is their story.

00:36:30.760 --> 00:36:33.360
We said that about the Daleks in 1963, too.

00:36:35.660 --> 00:36:41.540
well but if you said it about particular daleks then i think that probably would have been

00:36:42.090 --> 00:36:48.480
perfectly valid we haven't we haven't seen many daleks making a return it's always some other

00:36:48.640 --> 00:36:53.960
daleks just as it will be some other eternals what i what i liked in this story was that i liked

00:36:53.960 --> 00:37:01.800
i liked it working as a story about the eternals i liked the fact that into that they wove uh all

00:37:01.840 --> 00:37:08.980
all these different stories about our heroes or their friends struggling with their mental health

00:37:09.500 --> 00:37:19.200
and connected it all together in in what felt to me like a very a very appropriate and relatable way

00:37:19.880 --> 00:37:27.920
i so let let me let me clarify my hammer comment a little bit okay i have absolutely

00:37:27.940 --> 00:37:38.160
no problem whatsoever. In fact, I quite thought it was very, very well done. Yaz's piece in this.

00:37:38.840 --> 00:37:48.000
The fact that they just kept looping back and it's like, oh, and the Aleppo is a mental health issue.

00:37:48.150 --> 00:37:52.900
And Ryan's friend is a mental health issue. And by the way, Ryan's also got his fears about the

00:37:52.900 --> 00:37:59.060
earth being destroyed and and graham's got his fears about thing and yes that is like a child

00:37:59.200 --> 00:38:05.540
with a hammer and too many nails and a board no we didn't need four nails in this story we needed

00:38:05.760 --> 00:38:10.860
one we needed one good nail in this story no i think that misses and they could have they could

00:38:10.860 --> 00:38:18.920
have dropped a lot of that and and use the yaz line more and that would have been a better story

00:38:18.940 --> 00:38:22.080
As it is, you feel like the writer is shouting at you.

00:38:22.640 --> 00:38:26.360
In case you missed it in the other plot thread, here's one more.

00:38:26.820 --> 00:38:28.440
And here's another.

00:38:29.140 --> 00:38:32.140
And some of them are less interesting than others.

00:38:33.200 --> 00:38:33.640
By far.

00:38:34.300 --> 00:38:37.400
So that is part of it.

00:38:38.080 --> 00:38:39.760
It's not as bad as 155.

00:38:40.000 --> 00:38:45.520
It's not as bad as the plastic one in the terms.

00:38:45.980 --> 00:38:48.660
But it's like it's an overabundance.

00:38:48.900 --> 00:38:49.820
It's overused.

00:38:50.660 --> 00:38:52.700
And that's my complaint.

00:38:53.120 --> 00:38:57.120
Except that that isn't what the story is about.

00:38:57.820 --> 00:38:59.560
What is the story about, by the way?

00:39:00.080 --> 00:39:08.240
The story is about the different ways in which people struggle with mental health issues.

00:39:08.420 --> 00:39:12.720
And that's why I think there are a number of different examples.

00:39:13.720 --> 00:39:17.580
And the story is making connections between those.

00:39:18.240 --> 00:39:24.140
quite effectively i think and though there are there are major and minor stories within that

00:39:24.780 --> 00:39:36.120
and that is also a key part of it so i i think i mean really really the the the the kind the kinds

00:39:36.120 --> 00:39:46.260
of the graham obviously has his his anxiety about his cancer can i ask a quick question about the

00:39:46.160 --> 00:39:51.060
cancer yeah showed up in spy fall that's when we first got him talking to a doctor about yeah no

00:39:51.150 --> 00:39:55.440
you know and it was like sort of like a now you're all clear or something to that effect

00:39:55.940 --> 00:40:02.580
we get anything last season at all about this yes did we yes i don't remember it okay how

00:40:03.060 --> 00:40:09.540
how do you think he met grace i don't know rides on the bus do you remember what grace's job was

00:40:09.960 --> 00:40:20.160
nope dead woman at first episode okay so he met her when he had cancer and what was her job i i

00:40:20.400 --> 00:40:29.040
think she was a nurse and so he he met her in her professional capacity and then he had gone into

00:40:29.140 --> 00:40:36.160
remission and then they carried on seeing each other is that explained in an episode i think

00:40:36.100 --> 00:40:42.100
it's the one who fell to earth i completely did not get any of that i mean obviously it might not

00:40:42.400 --> 00:40:48.560
be the very first episode because we've got a number of other episodes that discuss graham's

00:40:48.640 --> 00:40:54.980
relationship with grace no don't remember any of it absolutely none of it feels but it feels like

00:40:55.060 --> 00:41:01.780
they're they're working it for some reason this year i i i think i think here that it is just it's

00:41:01.800 --> 00:41:13.080
And if you're going to explore mental health, it's such a, you know, it's a thing for cancer survivors and an often unacknowledged thing.

00:41:13.220 --> 00:41:18.360
And so it is nice to see it recognised in a story like this.

00:41:18.540 --> 00:41:26.340
But, you know, so it is to see Tebow's issues and so it is to see Yaz's.

00:41:26.500 --> 00:41:32.320
I mean, I think if you had just one, it would just be about that particular issue.

00:41:33.090 --> 00:41:38.720
Whereas the fact that it is about different mental health issues.

00:41:39.740 --> 00:41:47.800
And yet, I think the key thing this story is about is it's not just you.

00:41:48.240 --> 00:41:48.880
It's that line.

00:41:48.880 --> 00:41:49.920
It's not just you.

00:41:52.800 --> 00:42:00.440
largely out of the blue we decide to air them all today and that i think is the where the the issue

00:42:00.580 --> 00:42:05.600
i mean from a story structure standpoint i like i said i'll stand with my thing if you want to

00:42:05.600 --> 00:42:10.440
draw a parallel i would rather use yaz drawing some sort of her fears drawing some sort of

00:42:10.710 --> 00:42:17.660
parallel to the fact that these creatures are exploiting fears but and and i would refer back

00:42:17.680 --> 00:42:23.060
to the tesla episode for saying that of the things in it it's a nice it's nice that they

00:42:23.130 --> 00:42:30.100
managed to draw the parallel between edison and the and the aliens because that's a nice strong

00:42:30.570 --> 00:42:36.140
i think if they tried to do three more in that episode it probably would have been uh less

00:42:36.340 --> 00:42:44.480
coherent and and i but but the but the again the the point is the point is not any one individual

00:42:44.480 --> 00:42:51.940
in this. It's the commonality between their mental health struggles. And the reason that

00:42:52.040 --> 00:42:58.220
we're getting them all being aired, as you put it, at the same time, is because of the Eternals

00:42:58.270 --> 00:43:08.160
and the way in which they have exploited this. I would have, I realise that the immortal is

00:43:08.640 --> 00:43:19.720
is doing some exploiting of the doctor's companions although why tebow and and not

00:43:20.840 --> 00:43:29.560
right in other words so he's he attacks yaz and graham and and tebow not ryan and that's a little

00:43:29.560 --> 00:43:35.640
but he also gets ryan obviously and that's the other one that makes again makes no sense to this

00:43:35.500 --> 00:43:42.680
story why her what did she create in her mind the scariest monster ever she created she created

00:43:43.040 --> 00:43:50.160
particularly scary monsters i mean that in itself is quite logical and so is that little boy at the

00:43:50.220 --> 00:43:56.280
end who was scared of the bogeyman couldn't have done it too i mean it just seems like it's the

00:43:56.670 --> 00:44:01.240
the aleppo thing doesn't make any sense and it undermines the it undermines the notion that it

00:44:01.140 --> 00:44:07.840
is a strategic strike on the immortals actions that that he is working specifically working the

00:44:08.060 --> 00:44:18.360
companions to get at the doctor by randomly picking aleppo in in 1380 and well he that i i

00:44:19.060 --> 00:44:25.760
agree from a story point of view it does it doesn't have to be aleppo but in and he's obviously

00:44:25.780 --> 00:44:31.460
got a lot more fingers than just her friends so a quick question why five fingers run out when he

00:44:31.490 --> 00:44:38.500
only sticks one in an ear i don't know but it's okay it's a it's a nice it's a nice creepy effect

00:44:38.790 --> 00:44:47.240
it was a creepy effect i will i will i mean i i i i liked the i liked the atmospherics and you know

00:44:47.340 --> 00:44:51.780
the i thought that zelin worked particularly well when he was standing in the shadows because he

00:44:51.800 --> 00:44:57.940
looked really properly sinister and i and i loved that effect and at the same time i loved the crazy

00:44:58.480 --> 00:45:03.900
hitchhiker's guide visuals in this episode as well i thought it was just incredibly imaginative

00:45:04.720 --> 00:45:11.660
so are you talking really the animation oh yeah oh i thought that was particularly poor i didn't

00:45:11.660 --> 00:45:17.780
think it was bad animation i just thought what a strange way to project a story into someone's mind

00:45:18.300 --> 00:45:27.700
and i got the hitchhiker's guide uh um milieu vibe to it i i saw that and i thought huh

00:45:28.339 --> 00:45:35.340
why why would you do that why would you project it that way because it's a story and projected

00:45:35.920 --> 00:45:43.280
psychically well yes there's no budget there it's not we don't need to do cheap animation

00:45:43.300 --> 00:45:52.400
we got budget we get the mind that's but but it but it but it's not it's not being told it

00:45:53.660 --> 00:46:02.180
it's a story that is an epic you can't you can't expect to describe the arc of a story like that by

00:46:02.760 --> 00:46:09.020
including all of the details within the story what you want is something that is an outline

00:46:09.040 --> 00:46:14.760
and this is outlined animation this is this is very much that and it's exactly why they use the

00:46:14.850 --> 00:46:19.280
technique in hitchhiker's guide to the galaxy and it's very effective there because hitchhiker's

00:46:19.280 --> 00:46:25.280
guide the galaxy it is a quote-unquote book you are looking exactly exactly so what you're talking

00:46:25.500 --> 00:46:32.800
about is telling a story then why not words on a page well why not realistic animation when it

00:46:33.010 --> 00:46:37.960
the hitchhiker's guide could have been words on a page is this zelens or whatever it's not zelan

00:46:37.980 --> 00:46:44.160
what's her name the female again with an art i've forgotten it i'm afraid yeah i i don't i didn't

00:46:44.160 --> 00:46:48.660
even think they mentioned it in the episode it's i've only seen it in the credits but um you know

00:46:48.760 --> 00:46:54.760
is this her artistic license that this is how she chooses to manifest it it's like i was feeling

00:46:55.020 --> 00:47:01.820
artistic today so i'll do animation when she's pushing it in the doctor's head that that is the

00:47:02.220 --> 00:47:09.400
let me run ryan out let's get rid of ryan here as quickly as possible um we've we've talked about

00:47:09.400 --> 00:47:17.520
his friend um tebow hebo but more importantly i haven't talked to him when he gets his one

00:47:17.640 --> 00:47:23.220
nightmare which is his actual nightmare which is everything's burning and his friends have all

00:47:23.360 --> 00:47:30.280
gotten old and he hasn't been around which he then goes on to yes a little bit about that uh and also

00:47:30.720 --> 00:47:36.800
the creatures from orphan 55 it's it's very clear that ryan is about to leave the tardis and join

00:47:37.380 --> 00:47:45.160
a charitable earth and start working to save the planet i don't think that i don't think that that

00:47:45.240 --> 00:47:50.100
dream that you saw was the same as what ryan is worried about and what he was talking to yas about

00:47:50.820 --> 00:47:57.060
really that was the only time we saw his dream his fear dream that was his only nightmare i thought i

00:47:57.080 --> 00:48:03.100
thought it was a shared dream i thought the t-bow we saw in that was the t-bow who who was i didn't

00:48:03.100 --> 00:48:07.500
think that well either way it doesn't fit with what he was saying to yaz at the end because it's

00:48:07.560 --> 00:48:12.040
the wrong way around well how does it not fit i mean he said that we're we're going in our friend

00:48:12.140 --> 00:48:17.460
we're missing out on our friends he's saying no he's saying he's saying we we change and they

00:48:17.600 --> 00:48:23.500
don't he gets older and they don't the doctor can take you back and you can be at exactly the point

00:48:23.740 --> 00:48:29.360
where you left them so they aren't a day older but then he turns around and he says that so the

00:48:29.620 --> 00:48:35.360
argument is that you know we're we're missing out on their lives no no no which is what he did to

00:48:35.480 --> 00:48:41.760
tebow well we're missing out on the shared life let's put it that way the you know the moments

00:48:41.960 --> 00:48:47.160
in between yeah yeah yeah yeah he's he's definitely that is that is anxiety about

00:48:47.620 --> 00:48:54.560
his friends running out of missing out on their lives and and also the planet burning

00:48:55.100 --> 00:49:02.080
from global warming which is why the orphan 55 monsters were shouting at him i i i'm he's gonna

00:49:02.080 --> 00:49:08.080
go be an eco warrior i absolutely it's in the cards it's gotta be they're they're setting him

00:49:08.160 --> 00:49:12.800
up for a they're setting him up for a go it's like i can't do this anymore and he won't think

00:49:12.800 --> 00:49:17.780
of the idea of asking the doctor to help him fight but yeah i like i like i like the idea

00:49:17.780 --> 00:49:22.460
if they're doing that of them actually laying the groundwork for it so you have an explanation of

00:49:22.500 --> 00:49:29.960
why he leaves i really hope if you're if you're right which i i you know i'm open-minded about

00:49:31.120 --> 00:49:36.540
but if that is the way it happens i bloody well want an appearance by sophie aldrid please

00:49:38.580 --> 00:49:45.960
well okay the charitable earth part was was uh me hoping hoping beyond hope because the season 26

00:49:46.240 --> 00:49:53.500
blu-ray trailer was just superb so we'll i guess we'll have to see on that one but i think they're

00:49:53.640 --> 00:49:59.140
setting ryan up for uh mind you clash with sophie aldridge dot novel um which has just come out i

00:49:59.280 --> 00:50:04.140
haven't read it yet oh he doesn't have to have a cameo from her he just can like i've got this

00:50:04.280 --> 00:50:09.040
business card from this woman who said i should come work for her and he's already met her he's

00:50:09.180 --> 00:50:17.440
met sophie aldrid he's met ace he has in the in the novel oh in oh in oh oh oh oh well the novel

00:50:17.580 --> 00:50:23.760
is not canon so it's okay um they ignore them right and left they ignore them at their at at

00:50:23.760 --> 00:50:30.500
their convenience so no no big deal it's literally just been published and it's gone through it's

00:50:30.520 --> 00:50:35.100
gone through Cardiff so I don't think I don't think Chibnall reads these things he doesn't

00:50:35.100 --> 00:50:42.220
read the scripts clearly um even though he co-writes them I just want to say Tebow and

00:50:42.880 --> 00:50:48.660
the Tebow Tebow and Ryan's relationship was really nicely done I think it was I think it was

00:50:49.110 --> 00:50:54.580
yeah I I'm not gonna I'm not gonna complain about it in terms of how it was realized because

00:50:54.600 --> 00:51:01.480
it did come off pretty well they came off as pretty good friends and i i do ask the question

00:51:02.200 --> 00:51:06.880
why ryan didn't check in on him sooner if he was getting lots of messages from him

00:51:07.400 --> 00:51:11.460
i know he said his phone's on the blink but we know that's not true well i think there's

00:51:11.580 --> 00:51:17.140
their phones work just fine i've been complaining about it before which is which is this whole thing

00:51:17.200 --> 00:51:22.080
of why they go away for a period.

00:51:22.760 --> 00:51:25.280
Why they, as Yaz says at the end,

00:51:25.420 --> 00:51:27.940
the doctor can drop them back as soon as they've left,

00:51:28.040 --> 00:51:29.340
but they don't, they never do that.

00:51:29.340 --> 00:51:30.540
But they can't, right.

00:51:31.340 --> 00:51:32.560
I don't understand why.

00:51:33.120 --> 00:51:34.780
No, the doctor's dropped them off

00:51:35.000 --> 00:51:37.260
within 77 minutes of the time that they requested.

00:51:37.440 --> 00:51:38.820
Why have they requested a time

00:51:38.960 --> 00:51:40.240
that is months after they left?

00:51:40.420 --> 00:51:44.220
That doesn't seem particularly logical to me.

00:51:44.820 --> 00:51:46.120
And if they can get phone calls,

00:51:46.800 --> 00:51:48.260
How does that sync up?

00:51:48.700 --> 00:51:50.500
I mean, this goes all the way back to Martha and her mom.

00:51:50.680 --> 00:51:53.940
How does that sync up with how long they've been gone?

00:51:54.820 --> 00:51:55.440
Well, it goes up.

00:51:55.940 --> 00:52:00.620
It connects with the phone that the doctor gave, wasn't it?

00:52:00.920 --> 00:52:01.160
Rose.

00:52:01.720 --> 00:52:02.580
Yeah, I know.

00:52:02.680 --> 00:52:11.380
But the point being is that if Rose is gone for a month to Jackie and Jackie calls and

00:52:11.540 --> 00:52:13.560
talks to Rose and she talks to Rose.

00:52:13.780 --> 00:52:19.600
Does she talk to Rose a month after they departed in the TARDIS to Rose's time?

00:52:19.710 --> 00:52:21.400
Or does she call two seconds later?

00:52:21.880 --> 00:52:23.300
Or do they come in in the wrong order?

00:52:23.820 --> 00:52:26.100
Or it doesn't make any sense.

00:52:26.200 --> 00:52:26.940
And you know what they did?

00:52:27.170 --> 00:52:28.120
They fixed that.

00:52:28.540 --> 00:52:29.540
Chibbers fixed it.

00:52:29.840 --> 00:52:30.600
He fixed it.

00:52:30.660 --> 00:52:31.980
This silly bugger.

00:52:32.120 --> 00:52:37.240
He fixed it by using those stinking comm dots in all the way back in the ghost monument.

00:52:37.370 --> 00:52:39.360
And again, last week for no mysterious reason.

00:52:39.360 --> 00:52:40.240
How does that fix it?

00:52:40.720 --> 00:52:42.740
Because then you cut them off from their family.

00:52:43.260 --> 00:52:44.740
You cut them off from their phones.

00:52:45.410 --> 00:52:47.160
You know, phone doesn't work.

00:52:47.660 --> 00:52:48.080
CommDot works.

00:52:48.120 --> 00:52:49.880
But the CommDots will still have the same problem.

00:52:50.700 --> 00:52:51.700
They will between themselves,

00:52:52.230 --> 00:52:55.360
but they're all in the same kind of shared time.

00:52:55.520 --> 00:52:58.400
But right, but not with, you know.

00:52:58.720 --> 00:53:00.300
I picked up on this as well,

00:53:00.410 --> 00:53:01.440
because I thought the line,

00:53:01.500 --> 00:53:02.760
it's not tomorrow lunchtime already,

00:53:02.910 --> 00:53:04.740
is it, didn't necessarily make sense

00:53:05.300 --> 00:53:08.140
without a fuller explanation of how these,

00:53:09.480 --> 00:53:10.700
I mean, anything that does this,

00:53:11.000 --> 00:53:19.240
it's it's it's in the that um that christopher bidmead doctor who audio where you where the

00:53:19.460 --> 00:53:25.800
doctor invents the pocket into rossiter and and so you you have this issue of well if what does

00:53:25.800 --> 00:53:30.220
it mean it's not tomorrow lunchtime it's tomorrow lunchtime you can go to tomorrow lunchtime but

00:53:30.360 --> 00:53:38.320
right now um it's whatever local time it is from wherever you're speaking from so i thought we'll

00:53:38.340 --> 00:53:46.040
points off for that on the other hand points for the doctor actually saying i could nip straight

00:53:46.120 --> 00:53:51.560
to tomorrow lunchtime which as soon as she closed the door was me thinking well what you know surely

00:53:51.680 --> 00:53:56.280
that's what you should be doing straight away they want to spend 24 hours in sheffield you do not want

00:53:56.280 --> 00:54:02.080
to spend 24 hours in sheffield and you have a time machine oh sideburn sheffield um

00:54:05.380 --> 00:54:11.920
yeah it uh yeah yeah so yeah ryan could have returned those phone calls i feel yes he could

00:54:11.960 --> 00:54:15.680
have gotten those messages and he could have said hey doctor my friend's in trouble can i go visit

00:54:15.730 --> 00:54:23.980
him yes but he didn't so that that does i think i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i

00:54:23.980 --> 00:54:32.060
the guy who played the immortal oh yeah yeah yeah fantastic job really i thought i thought he

00:54:32.100 --> 00:54:33.140
as a creepy man.

00:54:33.900 --> 00:54:36.040
He was good looking as a creepy man.

00:54:36.340 --> 00:54:36.460
Well,

00:54:36.600 --> 00:54:37.120
that's,

00:54:37.320 --> 00:54:37.700
that's what,

00:54:37.760 --> 00:54:40.120
that's what I've got because I mean,

00:54:40.220 --> 00:54:40.680
like I said,

00:54:40.800 --> 00:54:41.220
I'm,

00:54:41.500 --> 00:54:41.700
I'm,

00:54:42.100 --> 00:54:43.600
I'm enjoying the Eternals being back.

00:54:43.760 --> 00:54:44.760
His appearance was great.

00:54:45.280 --> 00:54:48.480
I thought it was somewhat undermined by the very,

00:54:48.680 --> 00:54:50.500
very camp British thespy voice.

00:54:51.240 --> 00:54:53.100
And he was enjoying himself with that.

00:54:53.600 --> 00:54:53.780
Yeah.

00:54:54.580 --> 00:54:58.000
I'm also a little confused as to why he would have a tattoo on his head,

00:54:58.160 --> 00:54:58.320
but,

00:55:00.780 --> 00:55:00.900
well,

00:55:01.160 --> 00:55:01.280
I,

00:55:01.520 --> 00:55:01.820
but anyway,

00:55:02.020 --> 00:55:04.400
I guess he'd have to wear a wig to hide that.

00:55:04.420 --> 00:55:04.960
I don't know.

00:55:05.060 --> 00:55:06.620
So do they, can they, can they travel?

00:55:07.260 --> 00:55:08.000
Can they time travel?

00:55:08.500 --> 00:55:08.860
Yes.

00:55:09.480 --> 00:55:11.760
So if you're an immortal, yeah.

00:55:11.960 --> 00:55:12.020
Okay.

00:55:12.060 --> 00:55:13.700
I was, it's sort of rhetorical.

00:55:14.380 --> 00:55:22.140
So if you are an immortal being plucking out eternity in boredom,

00:55:22.200 --> 00:55:27.320
is not time travel really a bad thing to do because it just makes eternity

00:55:27.680 --> 00:55:28.200
even longer?

00:55:29.000 --> 00:55:34.100
I think that the point about eternity might be that you can't,

00:55:34.320 --> 00:55:39.540
I mean, without wanting to get into like Cantor's sets of infinity or anything here,

00:55:39.580 --> 00:55:43.920
can we just basically agree that eternity is as long as it gets

00:55:43.940 --> 00:55:45.880
and therefore it can't be longer?

00:55:48.540 --> 00:55:50.700
But what about eternity minus one year?

00:55:51.240 --> 00:55:54.740
I mean, bring my analytic geometry back into this.

00:55:55.740 --> 00:56:02.020
Yeah, in Cantor's terms, that's still the same size as Eternity.

00:56:03.920 --> 00:56:09.520
For me, I'm quite happy with the idea that they are in another dimension

00:56:09.570 --> 00:56:12.220
or however you want to put it in terms of that.

00:56:13.119 --> 00:56:16.420
And therefore, from the point of view of connecting with the themes

00:56:16.470 --> 00:56:20.500
in this episode, obviously there's an element,

00:56:20.630 --> 00:56:23.460
and I'm glad they didn't start quoting from King Lear

00:56:23.480 --> 00:56:30.180
and as flies to wanton boys are we to the gods they kill us for their sport but I like the vibe

00:56:30.740 --> 00:56:36.360
that that brought and the and the line they had what what do you think it feels like for them

00:56:36.840 --> 00:56:45.900
to be such tiny ephemeral flashes of existence which is cut again I like I said it just it feels

00:56:46.000 --> 00:56:54.460
to me very relatable when you are in the throes of anxiety or panic or whatever and you you just

00:56:54.730 --> 00:57:02.280
you you become overwhelmed by some some of these ideas sometimes interesting i didn't get really

00:57:02.460 --> 00:57:08.180
anything particularly deep out of that other than just that sort of the candle that burns fast burns

00:57:08.360 --> 00:57:14.600
bright i think it's the other way around because in some way in some way they they represent they

00:57:14.620 --> 00:57:20.600
represent these demons in our heads when we suffer from these things and the thoughts that we have

00:57:21.040 --> 00:57:29.680
when we when we you know when we are when our mental health is low but by and large disposable

00:57:29.880 --> 00:57:35.680
plot part of the story there tricking the doctor good um didn't get any of the doctors didn't get

00:57:35.820 --> 00:57:41.560
anything like um doctor having any insecurity about the fact that she'd been tricked or anything

00:57:41.580 --> 00:57:48.260
like that which probably would have tied better as i think you mentioned earlier um so let's talk

00:57:48.500 --> 00:57:58.460
about yes that is a very nice character piece and it is is very nicely tied to yes his profession

00:57:59.100 --> 00:58:04.720
because i think you could walk out of that saying you know this is the person that inspired her

00:58:05.320 --> 00:58:15.180
to be in the police it's a very there's some very nice writing in it um i admit i i was very much

00:58:15.860 --> 00:58:20.860
taken by a line and it's probably not the best line but it's the one that resonates the most

00:58:21.320 --> 00:58:25.420
to me is the trouble with the trouble with being old or something to that effect

00:58:26.000 --> 00:58:31.960
is that you have all that experience and no one listens yeah um or is that so true it's beautiful

00:58:31.980 --> 00:58:32.880
It's beautiful.

00:58:33.360 --> 00:58:37.460
And also the bit about, you know, a job doesn't pay, but I love it.

00:58:38.190 --> 00:58:47.740
And it is really a lovely portrayal of somebody who is a cop, who is doing it for the right reasons, who is helping people.

00:58:48.170 --> 00:58:50.380
I mean, finally there.

00:58:50.920 --> 00:58:55.660
This is why people become in public service.

00:58:56.500 --> 00:59:03.780
And the fact that she made a difference to Yaz's life, that she saved, potentially saved Yaz's life.

00:59:04.120 --> 00:59:11.160
The moment at the end when Yaz shows up and she remembers her, it really does.

00:59:11.820 --> 00:59:12.360
It resonates.

00:59:14.020 --> 00:59:14.900
It's beautiful.

00:59:15.500 --> 00:59:18.140
I mean, it really sets it apart in this story.

00:59:18.680 --> 00:59:18.840
Yeah.

00:59:19.080 --> 00:59:27.500
I mean, I think it's a beautiful performance from, well, both from Nazarene Hussain and Mandip Gill in that scene at the end.

00:59:28.340 --> 00:59:29.500
I think you're right.

00:59:30.140 --> 00:59:35.340
That line in particular, you know, get another job then, can't, love it too much, is why.

00:59:35.620 --> 00:59:40.960
Because we already know this is why Yaz became a police officer.

00:59:41.520 --> 00:59:58.900
But that's the line where, to me, that feels like it's an eye-opener because she's seeing someone who is in love with the job in a way that she will go on to be in love with
the job herself.

01:00:00.260 --> 01:00:07.660
and considering that we really don't know a whole lot about yaz's past um it you know you you can

01:00:07.780 --> 01:00:16.160
believe that there is a moment in your life where someone like that inspires you to the course of

01:00:16.160 --> 01:00:20.860
your life and you don't have to have it set up we didn't need to have this foreshadowed in any way

01:00:21.360 --> 01:00:27.960
it it's like there you go she she is in this because of that and but it kind of is i mean

01:00:27.980 --> 01:00:35.240
Well, we know that she has that love for the job, but we don't know how she got that.

01:00:35.420 --> 01:00:36.720
She may have had it her whole life.

01:00:37.220 --> 01:00:40.520
She may have just always wanted to be in the police.

01:00:40.720 --> 01:00:45.660
I mean, you don't need to know that there was some exact moment in her life where you could go back and say,

01:00:46.800 --> 01:00:51.200
that's probably the moment that made her go down the path that she's done.

01:00:51.740 --> 01:00:54.520
No, we know it comes from this time in her life.

01:00:55.280 --> 01:00:55.400
Do we?

01:00:55.960 --> 01:00:56.500
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:00:56.660 --> 01:01:01.240
because this is the year Izzy Flint turned the whole class against her.

01:01:04.320 --> 01:01:07.200
That's what's led her to where she is at this point.

01:01:07.340 --> 01:01:09.560
So I think we're going back into that.

01:01:10.480 --> 01:01:16.340
And we know the outcome of that was that she wanted to go into the police

01:01:16.520 --> 01:01:18.340
because she wanted to work in child protection.

01:01:19.040 --> 01:01:22.680
But we didn't necessarily see the human personal interaction

01:01:22.880 --> 01:01:24.020
that we get to see here.

01:01:24.540 --> 01:01:31.660
And we also, I don't think, have had an indication of where that year led her to.

01:01:32.280 --> 01:01:36.860
And also how Sonia's part in that played out.

01:01:37.160 --> 01:01:44.840
Yeah, Sonia has not been a particularly sympathetic little sister up till this point, I have to say.

01:01:45.460 --> 01:01:53.520
That might be the one piece in this that is a little jarring, isn't quite the right word, but wasn't necessarily expecting that.

01:01:53.940 --> 01:01:58.100
that it was her intervention that saved the day in a way.

01:01:58.620 --> 01:02:08.200
No, but at the same time, the relationship there is very nicely done, I think.

01:02:08.210 --> 01:02:13.000
And I'm definitely really...

01:02:13.250 --> 01:02:20.840
The whole thing about Sonia kind of resenting the fact that, you know,

01:02:21.380 --> 01:02:26.080
Yaz is spending all her time on the job and then Yaz having a go at Sonia because she keeps getting

01:02:26.860 --> 01:02:36.080
fired or whatever but then in this one first first of all you get a different side to that

01:02:36.300 --> 01:02:41.600
relationship which is this kind of it's awkward because they obviously do have this you know they

01:02:41.740 --> 01:02:48.900
embrace each other and Sonia says hi loser and and they don't really quite know what to say to

01:02:48.860 --> 01:02:55.560
each other over this anniversary meal but at the same time when when sonia is talking about the

01:02:55.700 --> 01:02:59.840
latest job that she's lost and yaz is having got her and she says well people are really annoying

01:03:00.560 --> 01:03:06.120
and they hate being told that i think oh god she's brilliant i love her yes she's not holding

01:03:06.280 --> 01:03:13.960
down a job but i can so relate to that sentiment well i think i think many people can um

01:03:15.060 --> 01:03:22.560
many people can was so what was what was you guys doing but where did you see that leading

01:03:23.660 --> 01:03:32.360
i i so i'll be honest and this is where this is where watching it twice it it took me that to get

01:03:32.420 --> 01:03:37.980
what to get what was going on here because i didn't realize this was about suicide and and i

01:03:38.180 --> 01:03:43.300
thought some about that i thought about why i mean maybe i just wasn't paying close enough attention

01:03:43.320 --> 01:03:49.960
to it the first time around but also why why the choices were made to present the story

01:03:51.080 --> 01:03:57.320
in the way it was presented and i think i think the answer is that this was just responsible

01:03:57.700 --> 01:04:04.340
storytelling because it's incredibly ambitious and again this is why i i love this episode

01:04:04.950 --> 01:04:10.100
you know not just for how well it's pulled it off but for its ambition in doing so

01:04:10.120 --> 01:04:22.400
it's trying to in a in a in a mainstream family tv drama address issues of mental health and yet

01:04:22.450 --> 01:04:30.280
at the same time we know from various studies that if you present if you present suicide on

01:04:30.900 --> 01:04:35.160
television you know whether it's whether it's reporting in the news or whether it is

01:04:35.839 --> 01:04:44.080
portrayal in fiction that it it can lead to an increase in suicide and also you know it's a

01:04:44.200 --> 01:04:50.560
kids show so you don't necessarily want to force people into having these conversations when

01:04:50.740 --> 01:04:55.360
they're not ready to and so what they're what they're doing is and they're avoiding all the

01:04:55.480 --> 01:05:00.560
kind of things that you must avoid when you know in terms of the guidance on how you how you actually

01:05:00.980 --> 01:05:07.860
discuss and present suicide in the media so never never discuss any of the the howls and

01:05:08.760 --> 01:05:16.880
all of that kind of thing so that so what they do in this is actually present it in a way where you

01:05:16.980 --> 01:05:25.620
just don't see what she's doing all you get is it's there in the dialogue and even then it's

01:05:26.200 --> 01:05:32.020
not explicit enough that you couldn't miss it and i'm proof of that because i watched the whole thing

01:05:32.180 --> 01:05:37.800
with with thinking it was about yaz running away and then the second time i watched it i clocked

01:05:38.300 --> 01:05:44.040
oh my god no it's not and then you you know you get the the the dialogue between her and

01:05:44.240 --> 01:05:52.221
nasreen hussein and suddenly all of it clicks yeah i mean i got the i i even on the first pass through

01:05:52.240 --> 01:06:04.320
I got what I got and and this is what made it the tiniest bit awkward and not in the way that the

01:06:04.600 --> 01:06:09.860
conversation would be an awkward conversation but tiniest bit awkward is that you're seeing one

01:06:09.970 --> 01:06:15.400
thing and you're hearing another I mean it the way it's staged the way it's filmed the way they're

01:06:15.400 --> 01:06:20.541
out there what you're seeing is a girl running away from home what you're hearing is a girl

01:06:20.540 --> 01:06:26.180
who's going to kill herself. And I never took anything from it. Once people started speaking

01:06:26.420 --> 01:06:33.000
words, it was, oh, this is, this is, I guess she's running away from home to commit suicide

01:06:33.340 --> 01:06:38.340
because a little extra inconvenience on the way is, I don't know. I don't know if I was supposed

01:06:38.440 --> 01:06:42.860
to take something like that, like she's running away from home to give her time to think about

01:06:42.960 --> 01:06:49.820
whether she's going to commit suicide or I, I don't know, but it was definitely, it was,

01:06:49.880 --> 01:06:55.160
it was there immediately for me they're talking suicide they're showing runaway and i don't know

01:06:55.160 --> 01:06:59.560
that there's any link between the two ever i mean i don't know do kids run away before they commit

01:06:59.680 --> 01:07:05.980
suicide i honestly don't know yeah well no i i thought they ran away to you know then then get

01:07:06.070 --> 01:07:11.160
into trouble and then you know get under drugs and prostitution and then commit suicide but i didn't

01:07:12.020 --> 01:07:17.261
i didn't it's not but it's not like she's run away actually it's not that it you can interpret

01:07:17.280 --> 01:07:23.960
as her running away but actually that's not what you're seeing what you're seeing is that she's not

01:07:23.960 --> 01:07:30.780
at home so she's she's she's gone away from home but you don't know where she's going the the dial

01:07:30.960 --> 01:07:36.580
the dialogue is where yeah where are you going away yeah it's nice that well but actually actually

01:07:37.380 --> 01:07:46.101
that's that's not the case what she's what she has has done is left the house and a recently

01:07:46.120 --> 01:07:51.920
remote location sonia puts it well she's yes she has gone through but but as as sonia puts it

01:07:51.920 --> 01:07:57.400
whatever she you know she's worried about what what she will do to her herself see that works

01:07:58.520 --> 01:08:07.240
the the thing is all that works much better in the dream because dream is not reality the road

01:08:07.380 --> 01:08:14.080
can represent you know can be metaphor standing between the safety and the thing and then want to

01:08:13.980 --> 01:08:20.220
and and because sonia's not actually there correct again in the in the night in the nightmare

01:08:20.740 --> 01:08:26.620
she is not but then when they cut to the final scene which i believe to be an accurate representation

01:08:26.940 --> 01:08:32.740
of what happened she is actually on that road out in the middle of nowhere and how the heck

01:08:32.970 --> 01:08:40.161
the police found her is amazing but well probably not because it's it's unlikely to be random because

01:08:40.180 --> 01:08:49.380
very few things are so that was uh again perhaps slightly odd but but worth it for the payoff

01:08:50.040 --> 01:08:57.140
worth it for the payoff um i say that i just wish the rest of the episode had been as good

01:08:58.080 --> 01:09:02.859
of course i don't know that they could have sustained this for 48 minutes so uh you have to

01:09:02.960 --> 01:09:08.921
see all right well simon thank you for joining me it's pleasure as always listers i hope you'll

01:09:08.940 --> 01:09:11.220
join us all again next time on Fusion Patrol.

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