WEBVTT 00:00:10.480 --> 00:00:16.100 We take a single episode of a science fiction TV series and overanalyze it to within an 00:00:16.299 --> 00:00:17.180 inch of its life. 00:00:17.800 --> 00:00:19.440 This is the Fusion Patrol podcast. 00:00:20.260 --> 00:00:21.280 Welcome to the discussion. 00:00:29.320 --> 00:00:31.520 Hello and welcome to another episode of Fusion Patrol. I'm Eugene. 00:00:32.500 --> 00:00:33.100 And I'm Simon. 00:00:33.640 --> 00:00:37.800 And tonight we're looking at the final Series 12? 11? 00:00:38.140 --> 00:00:39.000 Which is it? 11? 00:00:39.680 --> 00:00:44.920 Well, Series 11 or Series 37, depending on whether you are correct or not. 00:00:47.800 --> 00:00:50.980 We'll call it Series 11 because that's generally what the BBC does. 00:00:51.320 --> 00:00:51.960 Even that's wrong. 00:00:52.460 --> 00:00:58.980 But the final episode of Series 11, the Battle of Ranskur Av Kolos. 00:00:59.680 --> 00:01:05.460 Two religious zealots stand prepared to build a temple when their god appears before them. 00:01:05.960 --> 00:01:07.280 That can't be good. 00:01:07.890 --> 00:01:12.780 3,407 years later, the Doc and the gang pick up multiple distress signals 00:01:13.120 --> 00:01:15.360 coming from the planet Ranskor Avkos, 00:01:15.680 --> 00:01:20.020 a planet whose name literally means Disintegrator of the Soul. 00:01:20.680 --> 00:01:24.220 Armed with neural blockers to prevent their souls from being disintegrated, 00:01:24.540 --> 00:01:25.700 they go to investigate. 00:01:26.260 --> 00:01:31.180 On the planet, they find the wrecks of many spacecraft and one survivor, Patraxia. 00:01:31.520 --> 00:01:35.760 His memory has been damaged by the planet, but with the addition of a neural blocker, 00:01:35.770 --> 00:01:40.900 he begins to remember, with things coming back just often enough to keep the mysteries going 00:01:41.220 --> 00:01:44.580 and reveal info as needed throughout the episode. 00:01:45.320 --> 00:01:49.900 They discover that Tim Shaw, erstwhile Stenza from the Doctor's Regeneration episode, 00:01:50.380 --> 00:01:55.700 has been trapped on this planet and is manipulating the Ux, the previously mentioned religious zealots, 00:01:56.100 --> 00:01:58.860 to turn whole worlds into trophies, 00:01:59.260 --> 00:02:01.620 rendering them devoid of life in the process. 00:02:01.940 --> 00:02:07.220 The fleets of ship were races attempting to bring Tim Shaw to justice for his atrocities. 00:02:07.700 --> 00:02:09.880 Graham vows to kill Tim Shaw, 00:02:10.360 --> 00:02:13.860 while Tim Shaw vows to extract revenge on the Doctor 00:02:14.300 --> 00:02:16.880 by making Earth his next trophy. 00:02:18.200 --> 00:02:21.900 Battle of Ranskor Avkolas, I can't help thinking of the pirate planet. 00:02:22.760 --> 00:02:23.980 Yes, you're not the only one. 00:02:24.320 --> 00:02:24.480 Yeah. 00:02:25.280 --> 00:02:27.300 Which was a cool idea in the pirate planet. 00:02:28.400 --> 00:02:30.100 Kind of weird that Earth was going to be next. 00:02:30.240 --> 00:02:30.900 But there you go. 00:02:32.400 --> 00:02:33.400 In that one and this one anyway. 00:02:33.580 --> 00:02:34.660 So what did you think of this episode? 00:02:34.700 --> 00:02:40.300 Well, it's not an episode that it's not the first time it's been ripped off. 00:02:40.640 --> 00:02:44.460 Because, well, we talked about it on this very podcast. 00:02:45.940 --> 00:02:47.320 But I've forgotten the title of it. 00:02:47.460 --> 00:02:48.240 The Infinite Quest. 00:02:48.740 --> 00:02:49.140 Oh, yes. 00:02:49.380 --> 00:02:54.100 The Infinite Quest was very close to many of the ideas in the pirate planet. 00:02:54.660 --> 00:02:55.600 Douglas Adams, of course. 00:02:55.860 --> 00:03:00.840 So there are lots of good ideas to plunder by other pirate Doctor Who writers. 00:03:01.360 --> 00:03:02.600 But yes, there you go. 00:03:03.380 --> 00:03:04.360 So what did you think of the episode? 00:03:04.740 --> 00:03:06.000 This episode, not Pirate Planet. 00:03:06.640 --> 00:03:07.920 Unless you want to talk about the Pirate Planet. 00:03:07.960 --> 00:03:10.480 I mean, either one, but we'll stick with this one. 00:03:10.480 --> 00:03:14.540 Well, I have to say I haven't watched it that recently. 00:03:14.760 --> 00:03:18.500 So whereas this one I have actually watched in the last couple of days. 00:03:18.800 --> 00:03:25.240 So I think I mentioned that I wasn't quite sure 00:03:25.640 --> 00:03:29.940 whether I actually wanted to have a kind of season finale ending. 00:03:30.100 --> 00:03:33.540 I definitely thought that I didn't really care 00:03:34.040 --> 00:03:36.800 for those kind of big blowout endings 00:03:37.420 --> 00:03:39.500 because often they were done very badly. 00:03:39.500 --> 00:03:41.320 And what I really just wanted was a good episode. 00:03:41.480 --> 00:03:44.700 So if it was another week, another good episode, just fine. 00:03:44.700 --> 00:03:46.060 And then last week I was feeling like, 00:03:46.080 --> 00:03:47.679 oh, actually, maybe I want something 00:03:47.700 --> 00:03:50.000 that feels like it completes the series. 00:03:50.240 --> 00:03:54.300 And in that respect, I kind of think this episode delivered. 00:03:54.320 --> 00:03:57.900 It wasn't so much that there was an arc running, 00:03:58.040 --> 00:04:00.460 or at least a plot arc running through the series. 00:04:00.500 --> 00:04:04.040 I think there were character arcs, which is the way it should be. 00:04:04.820 --> 00:04:09.620 But even though, as we speculated and rather weren't looking forward to, 00:04:09.800 --> 00:04:14.160 even though Chibnall did bring back old Timbo, 00:04:15.260 --> 00:04:16.940 the rather annoying Stenza, 00:04:17.440 --> 00:04:22.820 Yeah, the fact that he brought him back gave us this link to, 00:04:23.400 --> 00:04:25.480 I mean, you say it's the Doctor's Regeneration episode, 00:04:26.100 --> 00:04:26.900 the woman who fell to earth, 00:04:26.940 --> 00:04:29.880 but it's also the episode that introduced us to all of the characters, 00:04:30.320 --> 00:04:34.960 all of the fam, and Graham in particular. 00:04:35.000 --> 00:04:37.300 And I think more than this being about Tim Shaw, 00:04:37.600 --> 00:04:41.520 it's about Graham confronting his feelings, 00:04:42.499 --> 00:04:47.400 his unresolved feelings of anger that have become mixed up in his grief 00:04:47.460 --> 00:04:51.760 when he realises he's likely to come face to face 00:04:52.000 --> 00:04:54.080 towards the creature who killed his wife. 00:04:55.160 --> 00:05:00.060 And I think I mentioned when we discussed the Witchfinders, 00:05:01.040 --> 00:05:01.400 or was it? 00:05:01.420 --> 00:05:03.320 No, maybe it was when we discussed Kablam, 00:05:03.440 --> 00:05:07.500 certainly when I was vlogging about midway through the series 00:05:07.960 --> 00:05:10.940 and T'Ping or Pting, whatever it was called. 00:05:10.940 --> 00:05:11.780 The Gremlin, yeah. 00:05:12.500 --> 00:05:16.860 The Gremlin escaped alive from that episode. 00:05:17.180 --> 00:05:24.960 that I concluded that there was something going on in certainly that first half of the series that I quite liked, 00:05:25.220 --> 00:05:29.300 where you got unsympathetic characters like Robertson, 00:05:30.520 --> 00:05:37.840 who in the hands of many Doctor Who writers would be conveniently killed off. 00:05:37.840 --> 00:05:44.420 And I say conveniently because it was in a way that avoided, you know, it's a 45 minute, 50 minute show, 00:05:44.780 --> 00:05:51.680 avoided facing any difficult consequences from that choice or any kind of unresolved quiet, disquiet. 00:05:52.900 --> 00:06:02.420 And I actually think that's what was being picked up here when you got that terrific scene between the Doctor and Graham 00:06:03.020 --> 00:06:10.320 with the Doctor basically facing him down and saying, you're not going to kill this monster purely from vengeance. 00:06:10.400 --> 00:06:15.060 if that's what you're going to do you go you go back to the TARDIS and the and Graham being equally 00:06:15.240 --> 00:06:21.600 resolute that uh if if he only did one one more thing with his life it was going to be to to wipe 00:06:21.640 --> 00:06:32.020 this stenza out right and I will I will take and say that that was good and I don't mean it was 00:06:32.160 --> 00:06:40.920 That was good. That was a nice piece of character for Graham and a nice solid result. 00:06:41.880 --> 00:06:48.420 And I mean, the doctors, I thought it was, again, one of Jodie Whittaker's strongest performances. 00:06:52.080 --> 00:06:54.120 I'm honestly not getting that. 00:06:55.300 --> 00:07:01.000 And I'm not, I will go out that very few of the Doctor's performances, 00:07:01.720 --> 00:07:04.080 any Doctor, are particularly strong to me. 00:07:04.360 --> 00:07:08.460 I don't see that as a, I've never seen the Doctor's character 00:07:08.520 --> 00:07:11.900 as a particularly strong dramatic acting point. 00:07:11.960 --> 00:07:15.240 Occasionally, you'll catch one, but for the most part, 00:07:15.680 --> 00:07:16.980 they're kind of pantomime. 00:07:17.300 --> 00:07:20.220 And for the most part, they're kind of pantomime. 00:07:21.900 --> 00:07:23.300 You know, I... 00:07:23.960 --> 00:07:26.500 It's a bit of a shame if you've been waiting 55 years 00:07:26.660 --> 00:07:28.220 for someone to do some acting in the role. 00:07:29.120 --> 00:07:29.920 I really... 00:07:30.520 --> 00:07:32.300 I mean, there have been pantomime moments. 00:07:32.660 --> 00:07:34.680 There are frequently pantomime moments, 00:07:34.920 --> 00:07:38.040 but I think there have been some terrific performances. 00:07:38.540 --> 00:07:39.980 There are from time to time. 00:07:39.980 --> 00:07:41.060 With some of the various doctors. 00:07:41.740 --> 00:07:45.040 I'm not taking that as saying, 00:07:45.060 --> 00:07:46.120 oh, they're terrible. 00:07:46.240 --> 00:07:47.040 I don't mean it like that, 00:07:47.080 --> 00:07:49.420 but they don't rise up beyond the level of, 00:07:49.540 --> 00:07:50.740 I know this is... 00:07:50.740 --> 00:07:51.000 I don't know. 00:07:51.300 --> 00:07:52.520 It doesn't... 00:07:52.840 --> 00:07:58.320 Capaldi had a couple of moments where he was giving a speech that were... 00:07:58.520 --> 00:07:59.820 You really felt it. 00:08:00.740 --> 00:08:01.680 And long speeches. 00:08:02.060 --> 00:08:06.560 I wouldn't say it was much during Matt Smith's or David Tennant's era. 00:08:07.280 --> 00:08:07.900 Or Eccleston. 00:08:07.900 --> 00:08:09.120 David Tennant was amazing. 00:08:09.540 --> 00:08:10.440 He's a good actor. 00:08:10.680 --> 00:08:12.280 It's absolutely... 00:08:13.020 --> 00:08:15.680 It's a great actor, but you have to be given the part. 00:08:15.900 --> 00:08:17.820 You have to be given the role to... 00:08:17.820 --> 00:08:18.120 I don't know. 00:08:19.240 --> 00:08:20.160 That's not trying to diss it. 00:08:20.240 --> 00:08:22.500 They're all absolutely positively competent. 00:08:22.670 --> 00:08:26.120 I just don't look at it and go, that's an amazing bit of acting. 00:08:26.560 --> 00:08:31.120 So when I'm saying I don't agree that it was an amazing bit of acting on Jody's part, 00:08:31.420 --> 00:08:37.460 I am trying to say that that's because I didn't rarely see amazing bits of acting on The Doctor. 00:08:38.080 --> 00:08:41.599 The Companions have had much better chops with that in the new series in a way, 00:08:41.780 --> 00:08:44.000 but, and as witness in this. 00:08:45.300 --> 00:08:49.600 But I, there are some things, well, okay, trying to put that aside. 00:08:50.000 --> 00:08:52.340 Because I think that was a great bit for Graham. 00:08:52.740 --> 00:08:54.160 This is a great episode for Ryan. 00:08:54.640 --> 00:08:58.040 This was another not much episode for Yaz. 00:08:59.380 --> 00:09:02.300 I've noticed that she's pretty much mostly been sidelined. 00:09:02.660 --> 00:09:03.140 She's there. 00:09:03.570 --> 00:09:04.380 She does stuff. 00:09:05.280 --> 00:09:09.880 But, you know, they've been given the lion's share to the Graham-Ryan arrangement, I think. 00:09:11.380 --> 00:09:13.540 And of course, it had a buildup, right? 00:09:13.600 --> 00:09:14.300 It's got something. 00:09:14.520 --> 00:09:15.280 Yaz has nothing. 00:09:15.460 --> 00:09:16.860 She's just running away from her family. 00:09:17.000 --> 00:09:18.340 It's kind of annoying. 00:09:18.920 --> 00:09:20.540 They seem nice enough, except for her sister. 00:09:20.610 --> 00:09:21.520 But they're kind of annoying. 00:09:21.900 --> 00:09:27.620 I mean, you can see this is a young person who just wants to get out of the house for crying out loud. 00:09:28.560 --> 00:09:29.820 I've lived with them my whole life. 00:09:29.890 --> 00:09:30.980 I want to go live my life. 00:09:31.140 --> 00:09:32.620 That's what I see in Yaz. 00:09:34.200 --> 00:09:36.480 But Graham and Ryan have an arc. 00:09:36.560 --> 00:09:37.580 They do have something. 00:09:37.730 --> 00:09:43.820 They have an unresolved, prior to this episode, unresolved status between them. 00:09:43.920 --> 00:09:47.500 They have unresolved feelings about the death of their loved one. 00:09:48.200 --> 00:09:51.720 And so they've been given this really good piece. 00:09:51.920 --> 00:09:53.660 And they cleaned it up nicely. 00:09:53.940 --> 00:09:56.640 I complained, was it last week? 00:09:57.000 --> 00:09:58.300 I don't know, the week before? 00:09:58.799 --> 00:10:00.880 About that I felt it was too long. 00:10:01.180 --> 00:10:01.860 Yeah, it was last week. 00:10:01.920 --> 00:10:04.760 But too long before Ryan called him granddad. 00:10:05.060 --> 00:10:05.400 Oh, yeah. 00:10:05.660 --> 00:10:08.540 I felt like they dragged it out just a little too long. 00:10:09.100 --> 00:10:13.280 But I guess they were trying to coax it for this moment at the end. 00:10:13.360 --> 00:10:14.320 The I love you moment. 00:10:14.640 --> 00:10:16.660 Which I felt was too soon after last week. 00:10:17.100 --> 00:10:17.300 Exactly. 00:10:18.600 --> 00:10:20.880 Well, yes, that as well. 00:10:21.190 --> 00:10:24.800 It feels like maybe there should have been a little gap of time there. 00:10:25.250 --> 00:10:26.840 And if they'd done the other a bit earlier, 00:10:27.250 --> 00:10:30.460 this might have balanced a little bit better, but I don't know. 00:10:30.540 --> 00:10:36.020 Well, yes, because I didn't agree with you it was too late last week, 00:10:36.260 --> 00:10:39.200 but it did feel like these two were too close together. 00:10:39.580 --> 00:10:43.939 So in that respect, it would have felt more natural to me 00:10:43.960 --> 00:10:49.640 had Ryan made that concession that he made in last week's episode calling Graham granddad 00:10:50.040 --> 00:10:57.660 and then for him suddenly to be so expressive emotionally you know it would feel to me like 00:10:57.760 --> 00:11:03.140 they would need that it's part of a journey it's not like the down breaking it should still be part 00:11:03.220 --> 00:11:08.120 of a journey this there's further for him to go after last week before he reaches this point I 00:11:08.200 --> 00:11:13.920 mean we don't know how many adventures they've had in the TARDIS in between but from the viewer's 00:11:13.940 --> 00:11:17.760 of view, we haven't been taken on that journey. And so it certainly feels rushed. 00:11:17.960 --> 00:11:23.480 Right. But, you know, the pieces in place, just not necessarily where they are, 00:11:24.490 --> 00:11:30.140 you know, I don't know if I'd go so far as say as I love you. That's an interesting question. 00:11:30.280 --> 00:11:36.500 I've never had a step-parent. And, you know, I suspect it would matter how old you were when 00:11:36.510 --> 00:11:41.399 you got your step-parent or step-grandparent or whatever it is. It never would occur to me that 00:11:41.420 --> 00:11:48.000 you'd pass on to anything other than that's a pretty damn good friend but but maybe so i don't 00:11:48.060 --> 00:11:55.260 have that in my i don't have that in my repertoire so of emotional range but you know i mean he was 00:11:55.440 --> 00:12:00.720 also kind of laying it on a bit thick to get him to do what he needed to do which is not kill tim 00:12:00.960 --> 00:12:08.280 shaw yes well yes yes and and i think that that did just that justified the kind of emotion of 00:12:08.300 --> 00:12:15.940 the moment um but i i was going to say i've got a step grandparent and i i you know i i think yeah 00:12:17.820 --> 00:12:25.980 she's not listening to this oh yeah but but you know she yes she feels to me like my grandparent 00:12:26.260 --> 00:12:32.280 really and uh so in but i mean how you how you express that that's very much down that's a 00:12:32.520 --> 00:12:37.420 personal and indeed the particular relationship you have is very much a personal thing yeah i 00:12:39.800 --> 00:12:43.900 There is that scene where he calls him Granddad again, 00:12:44.480 --> 00:12:48.300 and he says it's too late, something like that. 00:12:48.460 --> 00:12:51.980 He said it was tried hard, that was too late coming. 00:12:52.440 --> 00:12:56.700 And maybe that's why they held that so long into the show, 00:12:57.120 --> 00:12:59.620 so that arguably... 00:12:59.620 --> 00:13:00.840 This is a reaction to that. 00:13:01.140 --> 00:13:03.140 Arguably Granddad, Granddad, Graham. 00:13:04.200 --> 00:13:04.500 Granddad. 00:13:04.660 --> 00:13:05.820 I think of him as my granddad. 00:13:06.840 --> 00:13:12.520 Arguably, Graham is making a point that, you know, that's just sort of a new thing and it's way, way too late. 00:13:13.030 --> 00:13:22.880 And if it had happened earlier in the series, perhaps he would have gotten more time to adapt to that and understand how Ryan's feelings have changed. 00:13:23.220 --> 00:13:37.580 Perhaps. But I think I think if it if it had happened, if it had happened earlier in the series, Graham would have felt it was a long time coming because we you know, we we we've picked this up after he's been married to Grace for four years. 00:13:38.200 --> 00:13:46.520 So clearly, clearly he's been working on it and he he feels it's very apparent that Ryan has been very unresponsive. 00:13:46.660 --> 00:13:50.740 So I'm sympathetic to Graham's feelings of frustration over that. 00:13:50.960 --> 00:13:57.460 Yeah, and I think it has been clear Graham has spent a lot of that four years trying to get on Ryan's better side. 00:13:58.040 --> 00:14:03.300 Yeah, I mean, he's not a guy who likes to be, you know, he wants to be liked. 00:14:03.390 --> 00:14:04.380 He wants to be friendly. 00:14:04.820 --> 00:14:05.800 He's put in the effort. 00:14:07.140 --> 00:14:08.760 You know, well, we saw that even with the bike thing. 00:14:08.850 --> 00:14:14.840 I mean, he was there cheering on Ryan even before we realized Ryan kind of didn't like him. 00:14:15.100 --> 00:14:15.300 Yes. 00:14:16.460 --> 00:14:17.320 But he was there. 00:14:17.550 --> 00:14:19.960 I mean, he was putting in the time, like I say. 00:14:20.020 --> 00:14:23.880 so yeah i think you've got to i mean you've got to bear in mind that it's not necessarily that 00:14:23.960 --> 00:14:30.860 ryan didn't like him it is that that that thing in a in a step relationship of the interloper 00:14:31.020 --> 00:14:36.620 because he has a pre-existing relationship with his grandmother and graham is the in the new 00:14:36.920 --> 00:14:40.800 character but the one who gets all his grandmother's attention and so therefore 00:14:41.020 --> 00:14:48.340 there are feelings of jealousy etc etc yeah and i can i that that i can put in my that i can put 00:14:48.360 --> 00:14:50.360 in my repertoire. I mean, my mother died 00:14:50.480 --> 00:14:51.700 before I remember her. 00:14:51.950 --> 00:14:54.240 I have absolutely no, I have 00:14:54.460 --> 00:14:56.240 no feelings, memories, anything 00:14:56.620 --> 00:14:57.700 about my mother, right? 00:14:58.150 --> 00:14:59.860 So I should not be jealous. 00:15:00.440 --> 00:15:02.120 But I do know that when my dad 00:15:02.210 --> 00:15:04.400 would have a girlfriend, it would be like 00:15:04.500 --> 00:15:05.740 she's not good enough for him. 00:15:06.380 --> 00:15:08.260 So it's not, I don't think it's jealousy. 00:15:09.060 --> 00:15:10.160 Or maybe, I don't know. 00:15:10.540 --> 00:15:12.260 But it's definitely, there's a 00:15:12.800 --> 00:15:13.680 snobbery or 00:15:15.300 --> 00:15:16.280 yeah, you know, 00:15:16.340 --> 00:15:23.140 why why that what does he see in that i i don't know so it's not yes it's not it's not simple but 00:15:23.200 --> 00:15:28.600 it's it's yes there are there are all sorts of tensions and undercurrents and i i i think that's 00:15:28.680 --> 00:15:36.040 something that has been an an arc running through these 10 episodes that you know it's more it's 00:15:36.200 --> 00:15:41.000 more it's been more about character development than it has about any kind of contrived plot 00:15:41.020 --> 00:15:47.880 plot arc but i think you're right it's given it's particularly for for ryan who in in some other 00:15:48.000 --> 00:15:52.420 respects is not particularly satisfying the interesting character to watch it's given that 00:15:52.520 --> 00:16:01.060 whole dynamic uh something to to keep you interested and to to keep you engaged with them 00:16:02.499 --> 00:16:08.360 well i was going to say i i agree i agree with you in the sense that yaz hasn't really developed 00:16:08.680 --> 00:16:15.420 in that respect because i think that yaz is much more the traditional companion type role if if 00:16:15.660 --> 00:16:22.180 there were only one companion i'm thinking i'd want it to be yes because she big for all the 00:16:22.240 --> 00:16:26.240 reasons we've discussed before but she's she's smart and she's resourceful and she's interesting 00:16:26.460 --> 00:16:31.620 she's likable and she's got this amazing uh screen presence you know as an actor where you you do just 00:16:31.720 --> 00:16:38.340 feel you want to watch her but although i mean there were episodes like uh the demons of the 00:16:38.360 --> 00:16:45.740 jab where there was a kind of very character focused story for her character that's pretty 00:16:45.920 --> 00:16:51.080 much the the routine for doctor who companions in the sense they will you know they'll get those 00:16:51.320 --> 00:16:56.320 once in a while and then they'll get the other episodes where they're doing the what is it doctor 00:16:56.700 --> 00:17:03.220 bit and she's certainly been back to that for the last three or four stories you know it kind of 00:17:03.240 --> 00:17:10.280 occurs to me that so Yaz's character development has been pretty flat and Ryan's has he has been 00:17:10.500 --> 00:17:14.740 growing throughout the course of the starting from a low base starting from a low base he has been 00:17:14.939 --> 00:17:19.800 growing but it also occurs to me with with the exception with the exception of what happens here 00:17:19.800 --> 00:17:26.500 at the end Graham has not Graham has been if you will he's already kind of there and it's partially 00:17:26.760 --> 00:17:32.680 probably because they're portraying a character who is uh an older person who has has a life of 00:17:32.700 --> 00:17:37.680 experience and uh behind them but you know he's been kind of there his character has not changed 00:17:38.180 --> 00:17:44.020 significantly throughout the course of the episode well i'd agree until you get here well i think 00:17:44.420 --> 00:17:50.440 go ahead does does his does his character change here i'm not sure i think what's changed with 00:17:50.540 --> 00:17:56.820 graham is his attitude has changed i think you're right in the sense that he he's a very he i mean 00:17:56.840 --> 00:18:01.740 I was going to say mature, but obviously, you know, he's Bradley Walter's age. 00:18:02.320 --> 00:18:03.680 But I'm not really talking about age. 00:18:03.680 --> 00:18:12.600 I'm talking about the fact that he has a kind of terrific self-awareness and also a very strong sense of. 00:18:13.000 --> 00:18:16.120 I feel that he's got a very strong sense of who he is. 00:18:16.380 --> 00:18:24.560 And he has grown quite comfortable with who he is and his relationship with Grace, 00:18:24.760 --> 00:18:26.800 even though in some respects, 00:18:27.100 --> 00:18:28.880 Grace was still able to embarrass him, 00:18:29.220 --> 00:18:31.740 for example, by displays of affection on the train 00:18:31.960 --> 00:18:33.700 in The Woman Who Fell to Earth. 00:18:34.020 --> 00:18:37.980 But I guess it's that sort of slightly laid back sense 00:18:38.320 --> 00:18:39.140 you get with Graham, 00:18:39.360 --> 00:18:40.360 but it's laid back with, 00:18:41.000 --> 00:18:42.420 there's something underneath that. 00:18:42.560 --> 00:18:44.380 It's not wishy-washy. 00:18:44.740 --> 00:18:48.160 And I think that hasn't changed. 00:18:48.280 --> 00:18:52.280 What I do think has changed is that at the beginning, 00:18:52.960 --> 00:19:03.060 He wasn't, he wasn't, he was, he had this kind of distrust of the Doctor, coupled with a kind of slightly more risk-averse sense. 00:19:03.700 --> 00:19:18.160 And he's grown to both respect and trust the Doctor, and also to, I guess, develop a bit of a sense of adventurousness, which, you know, maybe he sort of almost inherited from Grace. 00:19:18.460 --> 00:19:19.040 It's her legacy. 00:19:19.700 --> 00:19:25.140 But didn't they all get through that point by the time we ended Arachnids in the UK? 00:19:26.100 --> 00:19:31.300 Yes, I would say it was definitely in the first half of the series for him. 00:19:31.740 --> 00:19:35.660 So obviously he wasn't a reluctant companion when they left Earth initially. 00:19:36.160 --> 00:19:36.780 Yeah, yeah. 00:19:37.620 --> 00:19:37.940 All right. 00:19:38.560 --> 00:19:40.820 Well, let's talk about Tim Shaw. 00:19:42.700 --> 00:19:45.900 Kind of a worthless villain in The Woman Who Fell to Earth. 00:19:46.880 --> 00:19:49.460 He's an absolute cookie cutter of a baddie, I think. 00:19:49.740 --> 00:20:15.180 Boy, he is. And if you think about what he's done, he has all this power. 3,407 years. All he's come up with is converting planets to trophies. That's it. With all the power of the Ux available to him, that's the best he could come up with. What a lame brain cartoon. 00:20:17.860 --> 00:20:21.860 Well, I'm not sure it would have made it any better if he'd come up with some plan to destroy the universe. 00:20:22.200 --> 00:20:24.040 I mean, I have appreciated it. 00:20:24.040 --> 00:20:25.620 I think in the first five years, maybe. 00:20:26.040 --> 00:20:26.620 Well, perhaps. 00:20:26.730 --> 00:20:34.560 But by and large, in this series, the scale of the danger has not been overblown. 00:20:34.840 --> 00:20:47.940 And I think that has been a strength of the series because they've managed to find a real sense of jeopardy from things that are much smaller and much more personal than perhaps some of the things in, say, the Russell T Davies era. 00:20:48.520 --> 00:20:53.640 And this episode, I kind of ups the scales a bit by taking out the Earth. 00:20:53.660 --> 00:20:54.540 But it could have been worse. 00:20:54.700 --> 00:20:58.260 It could have been the galaxy or universal destruction. 00:20:58.400 --> 00:20:58.940 Like last week. 00:21:00.180 --> 00:21:03.300 Well, yes, except last week it was. 00:21:03.920 --> 00:21:21.400 Didn't feel like it. It was a much more interesting story and it didn't feel like it. Absolutely. It didn't feel like it. It didn't it didn't have the the kind of grandeur that those stories are supposed to exemplify. It felt much more kind of personal, really much more small scale. 00:21:22.300 --> 00:21:25.280 This did feel a bit bigger because it was threatening Earth. 00:21:25.500 --> 00:21:29.100 But then again, it is the end of the series. 00:21:29.280 --> 00:21:35.780 But I don't mind that it took him 3,407 years and that's all he came up with. 00:21:35.920 --> 00:21:44.560 And also, I'm glad that it was 3,407 years and not 3,000 years or 3 billion years, as it probably would have been under RTD. 00:21:45.520 --> 00:21:47.340 Yeah, yeah, it's, yeah. 00:21:48.700 --> 00:21:57.620 Those small details that, you know, the coincidences of things happening to fall exactly on a century or a millennium that they did all the time. 00:21:58.300 --> 00:21:59.860 So, okay. 00:22:01.300 --> 00:22:13.720 When the doctor beamed out of Earth, the end of the woman who fell to Earth, and they were on a planet somewhere in another galaxy, or they were near a planet somewhere in another galaxy, and we had the ghost monument. 00:22:13.930 --> 00:22:16.720 I think Ben and I speculated, is that present day Earth? 00:22:17.060 --> 00:22:20.620 A teleport is a time-neutral form of transport. 00:22:21.020 --> 00:22:22.600 The ghost monument wasn't on Earth at all. 00:22:22.960 --> 00:22:24.060 No, no, no, no, no. 00:22:24.140 --> 00:22:27.140 But I mean, barring the vagaries of relativity 00:22:27.480 --> 00:22:29.160 that say no two times can be the same. 00:22:29.260 --> 00:22:31.259 In other words, it's an instantaneous transportation 00:22:32.220 --> 00:22:33.960 between two parts of the universe. 00:22:34.340 --> 00:22:36.060 It is not a time transport. 00:22:36.360 --> 00:22:37.520 It's not a time machine. 00:22:37.600 --> 00:22:38.320 Oh, no, it wasn't. 00:22:38.400 --> 00:22:38.880 It wasn't. 00:22:39.140 --> 00:22:40.620 So it would have been, if you could have, 00:22:40.820 --> 00:22:44.020 if there's a such thing as contemporaneousness 00:22:44.240 --> 00:22:46.220 between two points that far away in space, 00:22:46.580 --> 00:22:49.260 It would have still been 2018 Earth. 00:22:49.940 --> 00:22:56.540 So this is not a period far in the future where Earth's empire has butted up against the Stenza or anything like that. 00:22:56.680 --> 00:22:57.740 This is, this is, right? 00:22:58.360 --> 00:23:07.300 Therefore, we can assume, we can assume that this is also 3,407 years forward from the time they sent Tim Shaw away. 00:23:07.610 --> 00:23:12.520 So it's 3,407 years from today in the future. 00:23:12.580 --> 00:23:16.600 So when he was blowing up Earth, I mean, that's not going to be a problem for us because that's far in the future. 00:23:18.260 --> 00:23:18.460 Yes. 00:23:18.760 --> 00:23:20.060 So, I mean, they didn't have anything to worry about. 00:23:20.100 --> 00:23:21.160 They could have gone back at any time. 00:23:21.180 --> 00:23:21.960 It might be upsetting. 00:23:22.800 --> 00:23:23.540 Oh, I suppose. 00:23:24.100 --> 00:23:26.220 No, they did do a fair job. 00:23:26.420 --> 00:23:31.100 The tension building, the structure of the story was such, and it wasn't a great story. 00:23:31.600 --> 00:23:36.100 But I will say when they were racing for time there at the end, it was a little bit good. 00:23:36.500 --> 00:23:39.080 It was a little like, ooh, I hope they can do it. 00:23:39.340 --> 00:23:43.300 You know they're going to do it, but because it's Earth and they can't destroy Earth. 00:23:43.540 --> 00:23:45.200 That's the way the game is played. 00:23:46.000 --> 00:23:54.460 But, you know, they did a much better job of making this seem like there was a real threat than they did in the last episode, where I didn't really buy the threat. 00:23:54.880 --> 00:23:56.120 Just like, eh, it's going to blow up the universe. 00:23:56.250 --> 00:23:56.360 Whatever. 00:23:57.020 --> 00:23:57.880 And I'll buy it. 00:23:58.900 --> 00:24:00.040 Let's close the door and be done with it. 00:24:00.180 --> 00:24:00.680 We're fine. 00:24:00.880 --> 00:24:01.040 Yeah. 00:24:01.380 --> 00:24:02.620 I can see that. 00:24:02.720 --> 00:24:03.000 Absolutely. 00:24:04.520 --> 00:24:13.680 I also do appreciate, I very much appreciate that Ryan called the doctor out for what we've been calling the doctor out on all year long. 00:24:14.160 --> 00:24:17.060 Her sense of morality makes no sense whatsoever. 00:24:17.780 --> 00:24:24.540 What I really like, I've got a note to say is that the doctor totally called you and Ben out on this. 00:24:25.000 --> 00:24:30.020 No, I think Chris Chibnall has been listening to our podcast and has gone, oh, I better fix that. 00:24:30.400 --> 00:24:32.820 Well, and no, I better explain it. 00:24:33.000 --> 00:24:35.400 I'd better explain what's going on here because I... 00:24:35.640 --> 00:24:40.020 No, in fairness, she conceded that her creed changes, 00:24:40.680 --> 00:24:44.540 but she made exactly the points that I would have made to you. 00:24:45.580 --> 00:24:48.380 I think it was in your conversation about Rosa. 00:24:48.960 --> 00:24:51.080 No, I think it was in your conversation about the ghost monument. 00:24:51.460 --> 00:24:52.640 The ghost monument. 00:24:53.840 --> 00:25:00.120 Where you were complaining because the doctor had a bit of a grump at Ryan 00:25:00.140 --> 00:25:05.560 he'd picked up a gun yeah but then the doctor had had used the the pulse weapon to knock out all the 00:25:05.680 --> 00:25:11.800 robots as if there were and and i i know you made the point you weren't trying to be an nra spokesman 00:25:11.940 --> 00:25:17.320 and this wasn't all about the whole kind of mantra of guns don't kill people americans kill people 00:25:17.740 --> 00:25:23.100 but actually there it there it there are all of these kind of cultural associations with guns and 00:25:23.120 --> 00:25:28.940 the fact of the matter is and I you know I say this as someone who is has has enjoyed going 00:25:29.220 --> 00:25:35.920 shooting and so I'm aware there are there are other uses for guns but by and large and certainly 00:25:36.000 --> 00:25:42.120 with particular types of guns there is really just one primary use for them and therefore and I think 00:25:42.120 --> 00:25:47.700 the doctor did make this point when she's got a new companion she's breaking them in the last thing 00:25:47.720 --> 00:25:53.660 she wants is to in any way let them get away with the sense that their first resort should be to 00:25:53.900 --> 00:26:01.220 pick up a projectile weapon it felt very much retconning to me when she said that this is 00:26:01.560 --> 00:26:06.520 exactly what i thought at the time that you were making the point so when i watched the ghost 00:26:06.640 --> 00:26:10.820 monument i'll be honest it didn't the point didn't even occur to me when you had the conversation 00:26:11.000 --> 00:26:16.500 afterwards i thought absolutely what you're missing here is the fact that there is a difference 00:26:16.860 --> 00:26:24.200 between using a gun as a weapon when a gun really is only a weapon and using something else as an 00:26:24.380 --> 00:26:30.320 improvised weapon in particular circumstances and after all the fact that the doctor doesn't 00:26:30.700 --> 00:26:37.420 doesn't do these things as a first resort she's not a pacifist and i i get i mean obviously the 00:26:37.580 --> 00:26:43.200 fact that her creed is very variable is due to the fact that she has been written over the years 00:26:43.200 --> 00:26:51.220 by all sorts of people, you know, communists, Christians, anyone with whatever particular 00:26:51.630 --> 00:26:57.580 set of beliefs is going to project them onto the doctor in their episode, you know, so far as they 00:26:57.580 --> 00:27:04.080 can get away with it. But in as much as anything is constant in the doctor's attitude, the doctor's 00:27:04.180 --> 00:27:10.220 approach, it's the fact that she won't start by picking up a gun and killing people. It's not 00:27:10.240 --> 00:27:16.300 going to be shoot first and ask questions later it's going to be if we can do this without without 00:27:16.600 --> 00:27:20.780 killing i'm already thinking of exceptions to this but if we can do this without killing you 00:27:20.780 --> 00:27:24.660 know if we can do it through destruction of property or whatever if we can do it through 00:27:25.000 --> 00:27:29.620 some peaceful means of protest we'll you know we'll start there we will escalate as necessary 00:27:30.220 --> 00:27:37.760 but we will only kill as a last resort it will never be um just a a means to an end and i and i 00:27:37.780 --> 00:27:45.640 think I think from what I was saying about the the kind of the story about vengeance that 00:27:46.120 --> 00:27:52.320 Chibnall tried to tell in this episode and certainly successfully explored in some of the 00:27:52.370 --> 00:27:58.020 earlier episodes in this series is a contrast to the approaches of because because I think 00:27:58.170 --> 00:28:05.700 Russell T Davis was very much more the the the doctor was someone who intervened and took action 00:28:05.720 --> 00:28:07.700 And yes, that did involve killing. 00:28:07.980 --> 00:28:09.940 Yes, in fact, that did involve genocide. 00:28:10.700 --> 00:28:14.040 That was something that was too far for Stephen Moffat, 00:28:14.200 --> 00:28:16.520 something that he wanted to undo in the day of the Doctor. 00:28:16.840 --> 00:28:20.540 And yet even Stephen Moffat was willing to have the Doctor 00:28:21.160 --> 00:28:24.020 deliberately kill Solomon and dinosaurs on a spaceship, 00:28:24.840 --> 00:28:26.360 which was basically murder. 00:28:26.520 --> 00:28:29.620 So I guess that does go against what I've been saying. 00:28:30.180 --> 00:28:33.900 Okay, well, I'll take one stab, though. 00:28:34.060 --> 00:28:38.740 is just the distinction between the gun and improvising another way, okay? 00:28:39.560 --> 00:28:43.700 Knowing that the doctor knew that the gun would not hurt the sniper bots 00:28:44.300 --> 00:28:47.200 because, A, the sniper bots are machines, okay? 00:28:47.700 --> 00:28:50.800 So don't run out there with a gun because that's the wrong thing to do. 00:28:51.020 --> 00:28:53.240 I'll come up with this alternative explosive. 00:28:53.650 --> 00:28:55.840 And, you know, okay, she could run him over with a car. 00:28:56.180 --> 00:28:58.560 You hear that argument from NRA nutjobs all the time. 00:28:58.560 --> 00:29:01.540 Well, we ought to be banning cars then because you can kill somebody with a car. 00:29:01.840 --> 00:29:02.840 It's like, no, that's not the point. 00:29:03.680 --> 00:29:08.320 absolutely not the point the car actually has a useful regulate cars i mean yeah yeah that we 00:29:08.320 --> 00:29:14.040 make people have a license for them oh or take a test or or you know have their picture taken or 00:29:14.180 --> 00:29:20.500 anything but um so i mean it's it's a rubbish argument um but i do get what you're saying 00:29:20.510 --> 00:29:25.720 the gun is absolutely is a is a thing designed for killing even though you're using it in this case 00:29:26.120 --> 00:29:32.360 not to kill because it's not alive she had absolutely no qualms letting yaz run off with 00:29:32.380 --> 00:29:38.340 a gun, in fact, told her to do so with the gremlin, even though it really is alive. 00:29:38.410 --> 00:29:40.400 But again, she knows it can't really hurt it. 00:29:41.120 --> 00:29:49.180 So if that is, don't use guns here, take a grenade instead, or take this stun box instead 00:29:49.580 --> 00:29:53.760 that I've just whipped together, they haven't been consistent even in this series. 00:29:54.320 --> 00:29:56.320 And that's why I feel like this is a retcon. 00:29:56.410 --> 00:29:59.920 It's literally the doctor is saying, do as I say, not as I do. 00:30:02.020 --> 00:30:03.500 Oh, don't worry about continuity. 00:30:04.240 --> 00:30:05.300 I'm going to change all the time, 00:30:05.480 --> 00:30:07.820 but just pay attention to what I'm saying at this moment. 00:30:08.040 --> 00:30:10.260 There's an element of truth in that. 00:30:10.460 --> 00:30:14.720 I mean, I think, I don't know in what sequence 00:30:15.860 --> 00:30:18.000 the kind of writing and filming occurred. 00:30:18.200 --> 00:30:21.480 So it seems more likely to me that it would be possible 00:30:21.640 --> 00:30:27.060 to fix the earlier episodes than to actually be necessary 00:30:27.300 --> 00:30:30.180 to have to write something in to this later episode around this. 00:30:30.240 --> 00:30:37.160 I think it is an acknowledgement that this is something that, as you say, has not, the doctor has not been consistent. 00:30:37.580 --> 00:30:45.400 But I also think there's a reasonable argument there for saying, actually, it's more complicated than that. 00:30:45.780 --> 00:30:54.900 That she doesn't, she's been acting out of a number of different motives when she's made those calls, 00:30:54.960 --> 00:30:59.980 when she's given Yaz or she's encouraged Yaz to take the gun or she's discouraged Ryan from taking the gun. 00:31:00.120 --> 00:31:04.700 And that has to do with things like their personality and their attitude. 00:31:05.480 --> 00:31:08.100 Well, I suspect Yaz's risk to the situation. 00:31:08.800 --> 00:31:13.760 Despite, you know, the British police not carrying weapons, I suspect Yaz has had some training too. 00:31:14.320 --> 00:31:26.940 I don't know that she necessarily would have had training, but certainly she's trained in situations where she is fully aware of the lethal force of a gun. 00:31:27.540 --> 00:31:29.500 And Ryan has played video games. 00:31:29.880 --> 00:31:34.240 Ryan is tramping off in his Wolfenstein 3D mode. 00:31:34.580 --> 00:31:36.560 Or whatever the kids these days play. 00:31:38.400 --> 00:31:39.140 Well, don't ask me. 00:31:39.300 --> 00:31:42.100 But I think it's absolutely that distinction. 00:31:42.500 --> 00:31:45.160 But nonetheless, he should have seen it earlier. 00:31:47.179 --> 00:31:48.260 See, that's the thing. 00:31:48.300 --> 00:31:49.220 We kept seeing it. 00:31:49.240 --> 00:31:51.500 We kept several episodes through. 00:31:51.580 --> 00:31:52.340 You keep seeing this. 00:31:52.400 --> 00:31:54.580 The doctor's attitude is not consistent here. 00:31:54.680 --> 00:31:56.160 Why are they not calling her out on it? 00:31:56.420 --> 00:31:58.740 It took a long time for Ryan to call her out on it. 00:31:59.080 --> 00:32:00.400 or anyone to call her out on it. 00:32:01.140 --> 00:32:02.900 And the explanation we get is... 00:32:03.100 --> 00:32:07.680 Well, I'm not sure it was top of Ryan's list to, you know, 00:32:07.740 --> 00:32:10.220 he didn't necessarily have a reason to call her out on it before. 00:32:10.370 --> 00:32:10.720 He didn't. 00:32:10.810 --> 00:32:17.600 He was, I can't even remember whether he saw what was going on when Yaz had the gun. 00:32:18.280 --> 00:32:19.480 Was he aware of that? 00:32:19.740 --> 00:32:20.220 I don't know. 00:32:20.370 --> 00:32:20.940 I don't remember. 00:32:21.120 --> 00:32:26.700 So he, in other words, he doesn't necessarily see everything from our privileged position 00:32:26.720 --> 00:32:31.140 of the kind of viewers of everything interesting in the story. 00:32:31.250 --> 00:32:34.100 He just gets to see things from his own particular perspective. 00:32:34.270 --> 00:32:37.860 So it didn't seem to me that there were any obvious opportunities 00:32:38.080 --> 00:32:40.760 in earlier episodes where he would have, 00:32:41.060 --> 00:32:43.000 the Doctor would have done something or said something 00:32:43.180 --> 00:32:44.120 where he would have gone, 00:32:44.280 --> 00:32:47.320 well, that's completely unfair in the way that he does here. 00:32:48.820 --> 00:32:48.960 Okay. 00:32:49.380 --> 00:32:51.800 Oh, by the way, was Tim Shaw waiting for the Doctor? 00:32:52.460 --> 00:32:53.720 Yes, I think so. 00:32:54.120 --> 00:32:54.960 I couldn't tell. 00:32:55.000 --> 00:33:00.080 I couldn't tell if this was his, I'm just going to keep wiping out planets until the Doctor shows up, 00:33:00.180 --> 00:33:03.040 and then I'm going to take the Earth down to be nasty. 00:33:03.440 --> 00:33:06.760 I couldn't tell if that was what this plan was or not. 00:33:07.100 --> 00:33:10.400 Yeah, maybe it was just a bonus that the Doctor turned up. 00:33:10.660 --> 00:33:11.400 I'm not sure either. 00:33:11.800 --> 00:33:14.880 Because otherwise, wouldn't Earth have been the first planet he wiped out? 00:33:14.940 --> 00:33:17.200 Just to be Tim Shaw. 00:33:17.640 --> 00:33:19.940 You know, it's like, well, let's see, I've got to wipe out a planet? 00:33:20.580 --> 00:33:23.400 Let's see, where did I get my butt handed to me on a plate? 00:33:23.680 --> 00:33:24.620 Oh, yeah, Earth. 00:33:24.780 --> 00:33:25.660 Let's take it out. 00:33:29.360 --> 00:33:33.000 I was also pleased, and it's not a lot I can say. 00:33:33.540 --> 00:33:35.060 I kind of enjoyed this episode. 00:33:35.200 --> 00:33:37.800 I didn't think it was a great episode, but I kind of enjoyed it. 00:33:37.800 --> 00:33:38.180 I'm with you. 00:33:38.200 --> 00:33:39.420 I thought it was a solid episode, 00:33:39.600 --> 00:33:43.020 and it was because of the links with the first episode, 00:33:43.160 --> 00:33:45.160 which I didn't enjoy so much, 00:33:45.300 --> 00:33:47.600 but still it kind of bookended the series. 00:33:47.920 --> 00:33:49.660 It made me feel satisfied. 00:33:50.020 --> 00:33:54.740 The fact that the questions that I had at the time 00:33:54.760 --> 00:33:59.220 which is, and again, just going to say, the doctor DNA bombed him. 00:33:59.760 --> 00:34:02.000 That should have been dead, right? 00:34:02.380 --> 00:34:06.640 The guy on the crane tried to trip him, and she got all pissy about that. 00:34:06.940 --> 00:34:08.200 Like, oh, you didn't need to murder people. 00:34:08.240 --> 00:34:10.760 It's like, you just put bombs on him. 00:34:11.120 --> 00:34:13.740 And, yeah, there's that moral culpability. 00:34:13.780 --> 00:34:16.280 It's like, don't flip that switch. 00:34:16.540 --> 00:34:17.200 Don't flip that switch. 00:34:17.480 --> 00:34:21.520 I remember reading an article many years ago. 00:34:22.560 --> 00:34:23.820 You familiar with Leslie Charteris? 00:34:24.120 --> 00:34:24.480 The saint. 00:34:24.820 --> 00:34:25.500 The saint, yep. 00:34:25.879 --> 00:34:26.139 Not really. 00:34:28.020 --> 00:34:32.100 Well, the character of the saint kills people, bad guys, all the time. 00:34:32.440 --> 00:34:33.580 He is vengeance. 00:34:33.919 --> 00:34:35.899 He is, you know, his own sense of justice. 00:34:36.379 --> 00:34:37.200 That is the character. 00:34:37.540 --> 00:34:49.240 When they translated it into television, whereas in the book, saint could trap the villain, get him to a place, and provided that he could get away with it without being arrested for it, he'd kill him. 00:34:49.520 --> 00:34:51.419 Assuming the baddie was bad enough, right? 00:34:51.919 --> 00:34:52.840 Mass murderer or something. 00:34:52.919 --> 00:35:06.940 In the TV series, even if they adapted an episode like that, they'd have to put it into position where the bad guy would have to take an action that that action caused him to die, as we've discussed. 00:35:07.420 --> 00:35:12.560 They would have to rework the plots because it was simply unacceptable for the hero to pull the trigger. 00:35:13.040 --> 00:35:17.040 Even if they set it all up, they were not allowed to pull the trigger. 00:35:17.080 --> 00:35:18.940 And that's exactly what happened with Tim Shaw there. 00:35:19.360 --> 00:35:25.420 but you know we couldn't tell at the end of the episode was he dead did he did she send him back 00:35:25.620 --> 00:35:31.860 why did she why did she she you can't say she didn't kill him if that had been a lethal blow 00:35:32.290 --> 00:35:39.120 you you can say on paper technically speaking he pulled the trigger but i'm afraid i wouldn't 00:35:39.270 --> 00:35:43.860 i would say if you put the bombs on him and he didn't know you put the bombs on him and he had 00:35:43.880 --> 00:35:51.660 the trigger and he did that you are still morally culpable for leading to his death and maybe not 00:35:52.080 --> 00:35:57.940 actually heck that's first degree murder um but anyway you know boom up and sent him back 00:35:58.660 --> 00:36:02.340 you're like well i don't know what i'm supposed to take it i don't know what i was supposed to 00:36:02.460 --> 00:36:08.240 take out of that at the end of that episode is he dead did she send him back did if she hadn't 00:36:08.240 --> 00:36:13.040 sent him back would he have died if you know maybe he goes back and he has medical attention i 00:36:13.060 --> 00:36:18.660 I don't know. So I thought it was kind of interesting that they, you know, plopped him here. 00:36:19.240 --> 00:36:26.040 And I guess the Ux have all that power, but they can't heal him. But they can keep him alive 00:36:26.550 --> 00:36:33.940 somehow in his Darth Vader kind of mode. But at least they mentioned the bombs. At least they 00:36:34.420 --> 00:36:38.840 remembered to tell us so that at the end of the story, I'm like, okay, well, I got it. The bombs 00:36:38.860 --> 00:36:40.740 did go off, they did hurt him really badly 00:36:41.260 --> 00:36:42.700 and he got teleported to the wrong 00:36:42.920 --> 00:36:43.080 place. 00:36:46.300 --> 00:36:46.900 What about 00:36:46.900 --> 00:36:48.860 the Ux? What do you think about this 00:36:49.060 --> 00:36:50.620 addition to the universe? 00:36:51.040 --> 00:36:52.760 Well, they're right. 00:36:53.400 --> 00:36:53.820 They're okay. 00:36:56.500 --> 00:36:57.560 I quite like them. 00:36:57.880 --> 00:36:58.420 It's another 00:37:00.060 --> 00:37:00.540 really 00:37:01.980 --> 00:37:02.940 unbelievable thing. 00:37:03.840 --> 00:37:04.460 I guess 00:37:04.860 --> 00:37:06.860 in the grand scheme of things. 00:37:07.320 --> 00:37:13.480 It's just like, wow, that is a race of plot contrivium, if ever I've heard of him. 00:37:14.100 --> 00:37:20.660 Yeah, it's pretty silly, really, in a show about a person who travels around through time and space in a police box. 00:37:21.820 --> 00:37:24.700 No, I think it's a whole other order of magnitude. 00:37:25.560 --> 00:37:26.680 There's only two of them in the universe. 00:37:27.220 --> 00:37:28.320 That's Sith level. 00:37:28.740 --> 00:37:31.900 That's Star Wars agents of the Sith. 00:37:32.000 --> 00:37:34.060 There's only allowed to be two in the universe at any given time. 00:37:35.760 --> 00:37:36.680 Where do they come from? 00:37:36.860 --> 00:37:41.940 seen that one um but where did the other guy come from the the one that was crucified there 00:37:42.030 --> 00:37:47.960 well i don't know i don't know but he's only 17 years old so i thought well he's only 17 years 00:37:47.970 --> 00:37:52.480 old at the end no at the beginning okay right i was gonna say because at the end he's got to be 00:37:52.640 --> 00:38:02.560 something like 3,464 no something seven anyway yeah 24 so anyway yes he's got to be he's got a 00:38:02.580 --> 00:38:04.040 He's got to be older than he was at the beginning. 00:38:04.340 --> 00:38:04.880 Anyway, yes. 00:38:05.060 --> 00:38:06.240 You know, there's a war. 00:38:07.280 --> 00:38:10.500 I didn't feel like the arcs were interesting enough 00:38:10.560 --> 00:38:13.300 that I wanted to know the answers to the questions you're asking 00:38:14.420 --> 00:38:16.220 or that I particularly cared. 00:38:16.560 --> 00:38:19.500 But by the same token, it didn't bother me that I didn't know. 00:38:19.760 --> 00:38:23.980 Okay, so I do have one, though, with regards to their... 00:38:24.140 --> 00:38:25.380 I don't think they're interesting. 00:38:26.280 --> 00:38:27.020 I'll agree with that. 00:38:27.080 --> 00:38:30.420 And I don't think that this was the way to go about it, but okay. 00:38:31.000 --> 00:38:35.400 There is a story there that might have been interesting that we didn't get to see. 00:38:36.030 --> 00:38:45.940 And that is when we're introduced to these two characters, they're clearly one's older and the other is much younger because there's a there's that whole I've been walking for 17 years. 00:38:46.140 --> 00:38:49.640 And the more you teach me, the less I the less I seem to know. 00:38:49.740 --> 00:38:50.860 And she's like, oh, well, that's good. 00:38:50.920 --> 00:38:51.720 That's the way of the creator. 00:38:51.770 --> 00:38:55.920 So we have we have the the I can't think of the word to go. 00:38:56.060 --> 00:38:58.820 So he would be the acolyte more and then she would be the whatever. 00:39:00.540 --> 00:39:04.940 the higher muckety-muck of this religious pairing. 00:39:05.620 --> 00:39:08.440 And he has his doubts about what he can do. 00:39:08.680 --> 00:39:11.100 He has his doubts about his understanding. 00:39:11.640 --> 00:39:16.520 And then at the end, we see nothing that happens in the intervening years. 00:39:16.600 --> 00:39:20.560 But in the end, she is willingly helping Tim Shaw. 00:39:21.120 --> 00:39:25.000 And he is chained to a crucifix, clearly a prisoner. 00:39:25.360 --> 00:39:30.280 I'm more interested in how that came about than I am anything that they did. 00:39:31.080 --> 00:39:33.540 I feel like there was a story to be told there 00:39:34.560 --> 00:39:37.160 but we don't even get a mention of it. 00:39:37.160 --> 00:39:39.120 You just have to infer entirely. 00:39:39.260 --> 00:39:41.880 It's like, well, why is he chained up to the machine? 00:39:42.420 --> 00:39:45.240 And presumably it's because he didn't want to do this. 00:39:45.680 --> 00:39:46.440 In fact, we see that. 00:39:46.550 --> 00:39:47.440 He didn't want to do this. 00:39:47.930 --> 00:39:53.080 We do see that when she forces him into engineer mode 00:39:53.590 --> 00:39:54.300 or whatever it is. 00:39:54.660 --> 00:39:58.480 And that kind of, because there's themes of faith 00:39:58.500 --> 00:40:02.480 and themes of conscience and doing what's right 00:40:02.480 --> 00:40:03.780 or not doing what's wrong, 00:40:04.320 --> 00:40:06.740 even though your God tells you to do it, 00:40:07.040 --> 00:40:09.240 there are those themes that could have been brought into it 00:40:09.260 --> 00:40:12.280 and they were just largely, largely just there 00:40:12.400 --> 00:40:14.540 as sort of a backdrop thing to ignore. 00:40:15.660 --> 00:40:16.100 But I'm with you. 00:40:16.100 --> 00:40:17.100 I hope we never see him again. 00:40:17.520 --> 00:40:18.200 It's a big universe. 00:40:19.140 --> 00:40:20.580 I hope we never see Tim Shaw again, 00:40:20.680 --> 00:40:21.960 but I'm afraid they didn't kill him. 00:40:22.620 --> 00:40:25.200 Well, I'm not sure we're going to see Tim Shaw again. 00:40:25.500 --> 00:40:26.760 I certainly don't want to, 00:40:26.900 --> 00:40:28.580 but I'm a little bit more optimistic than you 00:40:28.630 --> 00:40:30.900 because I think the point about that ending was 00:40:31.220 --> 00:40:32.020 they couldn't kill him. 00:40:32.280 --> 00:40:34.640 The whole idea that you could have come up 00:40:34.720 --> 00:40:36.780 with some convenient plot contrivance 00:40:36.920 --> 00:40:38.400 that would have written him out 00:40:38.670 --> 00:40:42.080 would have undermined the whole non-vengeance thing 00:40:42.220 --> 00:40:44.760 in a much more serious way than the fact that actually 00:40:45.140 --> 00:40:48.840 what they did was still a form of vigilante justice, 00:40:49.160 --> 00:40:49.920 actually did. 00:40:50.120 --> 00:40:51.520 But now he can escape, 00:40:51.840 --> 00:40:53.520 and while there's life, there's hope. 00:40:53.960 --> 00:40:56.260 And unfortunately, even without life, 00:40:56.480 --> 00:40:57.740 There's hope for a villain to come back. 00:40:57.880 --> 00:40:58.400 It's possible, but why? 00:40:59.060 --> 00:41:00.420 His story is over. 00:41:00.660 --> 00:41:06.280 I mean, I think one of the reasons that we thought it quite likely that he would be back 00:41:06.760 --> 00:41:12.280 was that the Stenza story clearly wasn't over in The One Who Fell to Earth. 00:41:12.420 --> 00:41:16.500 I feel like the Daleks story was over at the end of The Daleks. 00:41:16.900 --> 00:41:17.880 Yes, all right. 00:41:17.980 --> 00:41:25.000 But that's where you have the Daleks in that first season. 00:41:25.660 --> 00:41:29.880 And it turns out that they are the the hit of the show. 00:41:30.480 --> 00:41:33.040 So you bring back a sequel. 00:41:33.980 --> 00:41:39.320 And I felt the Weeping Angels stories were over at the end of Blink. 00:41:39.500 --> 00:41:40.680 It's the same kind of thing. 00:41:40.820 --> 00:41:43.100 It's in a later season. 00:41:43.540 --> 00:41:48.280 You bring something back because the original reception for it was so good. 00:41:48.980 --> 00:41:54.300 Now, if it turns out that Doctor Who fandom is so alive with praise for the Stenza, 00:41:54.720 --> 00:41:56.740 I don't think there's any stopping them. 00:41:57.020 --> 00:41:58.060 They're going to return. 00:41:58.350 --> 00:42:02.400 But I'm not sure that anyone was that much more impressed than we were, 00:42:03.410 --> 00:42:04.200 unless I missed something. 00:42:04.780 --> 00:42:06.160 That I'm not sure about. 00:42:06.170 --> 00:42:06.680 I hope not. 00:42:07.080 --> 00:42:07.620 It certainly... 00:42:07.970 --> 00:42:11.340 I mean, the fact that Tim Shaw is back in this episode, 00:42:11.900 --> 00:42:15.880 in the same series as the episode in which he was introduced, 00:42:16.180 --> 00:42:20.020 is because that episode introduced him and left an unresolved storyline. 00:42:20.320 --> 00:42:21.980 Speaking of returning villains, 00:42:22.680 --> 00:42:25.040 They all recognized the cyberbots. 00:42:25.480 --> 00:42:27.700 I do not recognize cyberbots. 00:42:28.440 --> 00:42:28.800 Cyberbots? 00:42:28.940 --> 00:42:29.200 Yes. 00:42:29.620 --> 00:42:29.880 Oh. 00:42:30.000 --> 00:42:31.920 The tin robots that were running around. 00:42:32.380 --> 00:42:33.780 Were they in The Woman Who Fell to Earth? 00:42:34.100 --> 00:42:35.940 No, but they were in something, weren't they? 00:42:36.240 --> 00:42:36.600 Were they? 00:42:36.950 --> 00:42:37.620 I can't remember. 00:42:37.720 --> 00:42:40.360 I mean, the only place I can think of would be the ghost monument. 00:42:40.780 --> 00:42:43.400 And those were sniperbots, and I didn't think they looked the same. 00:42:43.780 --> 00:42:44.920 Like, I thought. 00:42:45.260 --> 00:42:45.960 And I'll tell you something. 00:42:46.120 --> 00:42:48.640 I tried Googling it, and I could not find it. 00:42:48.980 --> 00:42:53.140 Because apparently the word cyberbots is used a lot in some other stuff. 00:42:55.420 --> 00:42:57.560 So the noise ratio was way too high. 00:42:57.560 --> 00:42:59.700 They should have given them an SEO-friendly name, yeah. 00:43:02.640 --> 00:43:03.720 But I didn't recognize them. 00:43:03.820 --> 00:43:06.740 But the second the first one showed up, they go, cyberbots! 00:43:06.860 --> 00:43:08.280 I'm like, what? Do we know them? 00:43:09.440 --> 00:43:10.420 Do we know them from somewhere? 00:43:10.780 --> 00:43:12.900 If so, they were even less memorable than Tim Shaw. 00:43:13.440 --> 00:43:14.520 Although I've got to tell you something. 00:43:14.780 --> 00:43:18.840 When we saw Tim Shaw, he's so utterly generic. 00:43:19.320 --> 00:43:20.880 I'm looking at it going, is that the same costume? 00:43:21.300 --> 00:43:22.180 I don't remember. 00:43:23.420 --> 00:43:26.960 He was kind of silvery and body droidy kind of looking guy. 00:43:27.240 --> 00:43:28.120 Power armor-ish. 00:43:28.680 --> 00:43:33.820 Wasn't that what he was wearing at the start when he appeared in that garage in The Woman Who Fell to Earth? 00:43:33.960 --> 00:43:38.280 He was wearing some sort of a silvery, garment-y, power-y, sooty thingy. 00:43:38.500 --> 00:43:39.400 Yes, absolutely. 00:43:39.980 --> 00:43:44.680 I just, it's so generic that I couldn't remember when I saw him. 00:43:44.740 --> 00:43:47.000 It's like, I guess that could be the same costume. 00:43:47.140 --> 00:43:47.800 I don't remember. 00:43:48.220 --> 00:43:48.960 It's so nothing. 00:43:48.960 --> 00:43:49.620 I think it was. 00:43:49.900 --> 00:43:52.280 It could be the Silver Power Ranger for that matter. 00:43:52.540 --> 00:43:52.980 I don't know. 00:43:53.780 --> 00:43:54.780 It's like, it just. 00:43:54.840 --> 00:43:55.380 Well, yes. 00:43:56.000 --> 00:43:58.860 But that is because he's a pretty standard issue type of villain. 00:43:59.180 --> 00:44:02.520 To be fair, Daleks are pretty darn distinctive. 00:44:02.900 --> 00:44:03.200 Oh, yeah. 00:44:03.360 --> 00:44:04.360 The design is terrific. 00:44:04.900 --> 00:44:05.160 Absolutely. 00:44:05.780 --> 00:44:09.100 I can't find any reference to cyber, cyber bots in this episode. 00:44:09.420 --> 00:44:10.980 They call them Sniperbots. 00:44:11.140 --> 00:44:12.940 They call them Sniperbots in this episode? 00:44:13.240 --> 00:44:14.000 Yes, yes. 00:44:14.500 --> 00:44:15.440 I wonder if that's a... 00:44:15.740 --> 00:44:18.740 Well, I think they are from the Ghost Monument. 00:44:18.980 --> 00:44:19.300 Okay. 00:44:21.220 --> 00:44:23.520 Maybe that's why I couldn't find them searching them, 00:44:23.580 --> 00:44:28.140 but I would swear that the subtitles have been Cyberbots. 00:44:28.280 --> 00:44:29.360 I'm looking at the subtitles. 00:44:29.760 --> 00:44:31.580 Yeah, but you're looking at the BBC subtitles, 00:44:31.800 --> 00:44:33.380 and I was looking at the iTunes subtitles. 00:44:34.200 --> 00:44:35.380 I'll have to go back and look. 00:44:36.020 --> 00:44:37.559 It's possible that... 00:44:37.580 --> 00:44:39.360 I only managed to get through this one once. 00:44:40.080 --> 00:44:41.900 Not because it was so bad. 00:44:41.900 --> 00:44:42.700 I had to only get through one. 00:44:42.760 --> 00:44:46.240 But I only had the time to give it the first watch. 00:44:47.380 --> 00:44:49.300 So, but when they, the first time they. 00:44:49.680 --> 00:44:50.680 See, I. 00:44:51.820 --> 00:44:55.620 If they're sniper bots, that would explain why. 00:44:56.080 --> 00:44:57.260 Well, their Stenzo technology. 00:44:58.500 --> 00:45:01.980 Chibnall put the reference to the Stenzo in the ghost monument. 00:45:02.480 --> 00:45:03.780 So he could save on costumes. 00:45:04.800 --> 00:45:10.160 Well, so that he could explain why you see the same monsters 00:45:10.820 --> 00:45:13.600 on whatever the planet is in that one, 00:45:14.220 --> 00:45:16.520 because it's been ravaged by the Stenza. 00:45:17.040 --> 00:45:17.480 Desolation. 00:45:17.730 --> 00:45:23.600 And on Ranskor, because it's been colonized by old Mr. Timothy there. 00:45:23.840 --> 00:45:24.740 I think we'll go with Timbo. 00:45:25.030 --> 00:45:25.840 I think that was a... 00:45:25.940 --> 00:45:26.700 Timbo, yeah. 00:45:26.820 --> 00:45:27.080 Timbo. 00:45:27.300 --> 00:45:28.320 I think that's a good one. 00:45:28.980 --> 00:45:29.900 Timbo the Toothman. 00:45:32.260 --> 00:45:39.240 Well, you know, you should take that down to the nearest calcium deposit box on the streets and turn that in. 00:45:40.300 --> 00:45:42.940 I suppose that one fly over most of the listeners. 00:45:43.840 --> 00:45:44.560 Look Around You. 00:45:44.860 --> 00:45:45.400 Have you ever seen that? 00:45:45.660 --> 00:45:46.200 I haven't. 00:45:46.380 --> 00:45:50.120 You should absolutely look up, look around you. 00:45:50.500 --> 00:45:51.400 It's a... 00:45:52.040 --> 00:45:52.580 Might BBC? 00:45:52.700 --> 00:45:53.020 You know what? 00:45:53.440 --> 00:45:54.840 It might be a BBC show. 00:45:54.840 --> 00:45:57.560 It might be ITV, but it makes fun of open university courses. 00:45:57.700 --> 00:45:58.760 I know I should watch it. 00:45:58.960 --> 00:45:59.220 Yeah. 00:45:59.560 --> 00:46:02.000 The calcium deposit boxes. 00:46:02.350 --> 00:46:06.680 In Britain, people take their teeth and drop them in these boxes for collection and grinding down. 00:46:06.960 --> 00:46:08.420 They're made into high-quality calcium. 00:46:09.920 --> 00:46:12.120 It's a weird, weird show. 00:46:12.410 --> 00:46:14.700 But every time I see Tim Shaw, I think of that. 00:46:14.950 --> 00:46:16.280 I think, wow, he's got a whole... 00:46:16.340 --> 00:46:17.260 He could make some money there. 00:46:17.510 --> 00:46:18.200 Let his teeth off. 00:46:19.960 --> 00:46:20.540 All right. 00:46:20.870 --> 00:46:23.680 Well, so how about the... 00:46:23.920 --> 00:46:27.840 I also will say I really like the fact that they ended it without ending it. 00:46:28.080 --> 00:46:32.380 They ended it about the same as they ended Survival. 00:46:33.280 --> 00:46:33.880 It's funny. 00:46:34.280 --> 00:46:36.700 I was reminded of Survival. 00:46:37.120 --> 00:46:42.140 And I think the reason for it is because there's that voiceover they added to Survival 00:46:42.320 --> 00:46:45.060 when they thought the show was going on hiatus. 00:46:45.900 --> 00:46:50.620 And, you know, it has that kind of slightly poetic quality. 00:46:51.540 --> 00:46:53.680 You know, whatever there is out there, Ace. 00:46:54.860 --> 00:46:56.900 And it's that speech from the Doctor at the end of this. 00:46:56.960 --> 00:47:01.560 that's why we keep looking keep your faith travel hopefully the universe will surprise you and it's 00:47:01.780 --> 00:47:06.640 it's yes it's a it's a bit it's as if he knew they were going on hiatus till 2020 00:47:08.420 --> 00:47:13.460 except it's not it's totally it's not you know we've been we've been talking about it like it's 00:47:13.540 --> 00:47:19.400 some big episode to end the season it's the last episode of doctor who for a full 23 days 00:47:19.980 --> 00:47:24.039 because that's how long we're gonna have to wait for the next one when the daleks come back hardly 00:47:24.060 --> 00:47:26.300 hardly an age, they better not. 00:47:28.120 --> 00:47:29.100 I have no idea. 00:47:31.420 --> 00:47:32.400 Let's give credit. 00:47:32.490 --> 00:47:34.320 I know it's not specifically about this episode, 00:47:34.680 --> 00:47:38.560 but hasn't it been great not having returning monsters this year? 00:47:39.220 --> 00:47:40.420 There's good to that, 00:47:40.710 --> 00:47:43.480 but then there's the downside to that, Tim Shaw. 00:47:45.440 --> 00:47:47.520 Well, there's no guarantee you wouldn't have got Tim Shaw 00:47:47.900 --> 00:47:50.060 in between Dalek and Cybermen episodes. 00:47:50.500 --> 00:47:51.420 Pating, that's it. 00:47:51.430 --> 00:47:52.900 Not T'Ping, it's Pating. 00:47:53.280 --> 00:47:53.960 Pating, yes. 00:47:54.160 --> 00:48:02.020 there we go aka nibbler from futurama yes oh yeah yeah i guess so yeah well anyway yeah but 00:48:02.300 --> 00:48:07.300 so it did come to an end and i mean if if i'm not pretending like they were can't saying there's 00:48:07.420 --> 00:48:11.720 anything to it you know if they were ending the show they were canceling the show i would have 00:48:11.840 --> 00:48:17.060 much preferred it to go off the air there like that i don't like the fact i hate the cliffhangers 00:48:17.540 --> 00:48:22.359 and i think the cliffhangers are even worse when it came time to having a christmas episode i mean 00:48:22.380 --> 00:48:30.800 they absolutely freaking destroyed um capaldi's proper last episode by having to take it on into 00:48:30.800 --> 00:48:37.240 the christmas special you know the christmas special or now new year's special is is just 00:48:37.340 --> 00:48:42.600 like this sort of growth that forms on it if you're if you're gonna carry on from one season 00:48:42.660 --> 00:48:48.499 to the next do so but don't do it by way of the christmas special or the holiday special let's 00:48:48.520 --> 00:48:52.440 call it the holiday special for the sake of argument but i don't like amending on cliffhangers 00:48:52.820 --> 00:48:58.640 anyway um no it was a good ending it's a good ending just just do it and go into the christmas 00:48:59.040 --> 00:49:04.740 or the holiday special and end it the same way maybe without the same speech but you know mission 00:49:04.920 --> 00:49:10.600 saw back in the tardis take off to all we need we know the adventure continues or doesn't but 00:49:10.900 --> 00:49:18.480 you know it continues but i yes i i i like the lack of i lack the lack of old villains because 00:49:18.500 --> 00:49:20.960 They rely on them too much, particularly the Daleks. 00:49:21.380 --> 00:49:22.600 Well, and the Cybermen too. 00:49:23.200 --> 00:49:26.520 But at the same time, they didn't come up with any memorable ones this year. 00:49:27.100 --> 00:49:29.040 No, but they've created the space for it. 00:49:29.200 --> 00:49:30.780 Yeah, I guess that's true. 00:49:31.760 --> 00:49:34.460 Besides which, I'm not sure that's entirely true, 00:49:34.570 --> 00:49:38.960 because I think people are going to remember the Sentient Frog universe for some time to come. 00:49:39.360 --> 00:49:42.320 Sadly, they're going to remember the Sentient Frog universe. 00:49:43.020 --> 00:49:48.100 And if the Sentient Frog universe ever comes back, it will come back in the form of a frog. 00:49:48.440 --> 00:49:52.880 despite the fact that that was, you know, just a momentary whim. 00:49:53.180 --> 00:49:53.320 Yes, yes. 00:49:53.980 --> 00:49:55.160 It's now cemented in... 00:49:55.160 --> 00:49:56.100 It shouldn't come back in the form of a frog. 00:49:56.480 --> 00:49:59.120 It shouldn't come back, I think, not because I didn't like it, 00:49:59.240 --> 00:50:01.260 but because I don't think there's anything else to do with it. 00:50:01.400 --> 00:50:05.480 But yes, I agree that it would be a mistake 00:50:06.190 --> 00:50:09.100 to have a whole series of frog sequels. 00:50:09.480 --> 00:50:12.960 Yeah, so that's what we remember from the Chibnall era. 00:50:13.320 --> 00:50:15.280 The frog in the chair, Kermit. 00:50:16.920 --> 00:50:18.660 There are worse legacies. 00:50:19.440 --> 00:50:20.680 I suppose so. 00:50:23.160 --> 00:50:27.680 I don't believe that I have anything else. 00:50:28.040 --> 00:50:33.380 I have very little else, except I think it deserves a word of praise 00:50:33.580 --> 00:50:37.200 that this episode is unashamedly filmed in a quarry. 00:50:37.380 --> 00:50:39.660 I mean, a proper Doctor Who quarry. 00:50:39.860 --> 00:50:44.700 This could have been filmed in the same place as Death to the Daleks 00:50:44.900 --> 00:50:45.900 or Time and the Rani. 00:50:46.120 --> 00:50:47.660 It was that kind of quarry. 00:50:47.860 --> 00:50:49.100 And it looked ace. 00:50:49.520 --> 00:50:49.840 Really good. 00:50:50.180 --> 00:50:53.160 I appreciate that it was in a quarry. 00:50:53.480 --> 00:50:53.620 Yes. 00:50:54.240 --> 00:50:55.240 Uncle along with that. 00:50:55.460 --> 00:50:57.820 I think they need, well, I don't know if they need more quarries. 00:50:58.100 --> 00:50:59.380 But it was great. 00:50:59.660 --> 00:51:01.340 It's a nod to the roots, I think. 00:51:01.460 --> 00:51:02.300 And I like that. 00:51:02.540 --> 00:51:06.920 You know, there's a good, I think perhaps Ben and I had this discussion once. 00:51:07.120 --> 00:51:13.320 But I mean, I think when you're doing production of a television show, particularly in the older days, 00:51:13.740 --> 00:51:16.020 you do have to work around what's available. 00:51:17.280 --> 00:51:21.100 And I'm not an expert by any stretch of the imagination, 00:51:21.410 --> 00:51:23.080 having only been to the United Kingdom once, 00:51:23.240 --> 00:51:27.000 but we drove around up to Scotland 00:51:27.300 --> 00:51:30.580 and around the east and west sides and whatnot. 00:51:30.710 --> 00:51:34.100 And there's not a whole lot of places that you'd look at and go, 00:51:34.400 --> 00:51:36.620 wow, alien desolate landscape. 00:51:38.280 --> 00:51:40.820 You only say that because you live in alien desolate landscape. 00:51:41.040 --> 00:51:42.640 Exactly. That's exactly right. 00:51:42.840 --> 00:51:48.680 And if you were making a TV program here, you would have a hard time finding lush jungle. 00:51:49.600 --> 00:51:50.560 And, right? 00:51:50.820 --> 00:51:52.520 I mean, it is what it is. 00:51:53.040 --> 00:51:57.300 This is why so much American television, people have the wrong impression of so much of America 00:51:57.440 --> 00:52:02.820 because all of it was shot in California, which has its own unique look and feel to it. 00:52:03.140 --> 00:52:04.820 And for so many decades. 00:52:05.400 --> 00:52:09.820 And so I, you know, I don't begrudge Dr. Who its quarries. 00:52:10.240 --> 00:52:11.680 Those are pretty desolate looking. 00:52:12.720 --> 00:52:18.220 Maybe, you know, sometimes in, say, I don't know if it was Death to the Daleks. 00:52:19.700 --> 00:52:20.920 No, it wasn't Death to the Daleks. 00:52:21.010 --> 00:52:23.880 It was the, maybe it was Death to the Daleks. 00:52:23.880 --> 00:52:28.440 I don't know, which is the one that came after the frontier in space? 00:52:28.960 --> 00:52:29.580 Oh, oh. 00:52:29.980 --> 00:52:34.240 Right, where they had the Ogrons and they went to that planet and they were in the quarry 00:52:34.840 --> 00:52:37.280 and they didn't bother to remove the roads. 00:52:38.080 --> 00:52:39.860 It wasn't Planet of the Daleks, was it? 00:52:41.100 --> 00:52:42.640 That might be Planet of the Daleks. 00:52:43.260 --> 00:52:46.420 Well, no, that was Spiridon, the jungle planet. 00:52:46.740 --> 00:52:48.420 Yes, no, that was definitely Spiridon. 00:52:48.540 --> 00:52:48.940 You're quite right. 00:52:49.220 --> 00:52:53.520 And yet, Wikipedia, its frontier in space is followed by Planet of the Daleks. 00:52:53.660 --> 00:52:55.860 Okay, they went there in frontier in space. 00:52:56.520 --> 00:52:56.880 That's it. 00:52:57.060 --> 00:52:59.600 They went to the planet of the Ogrons in frontier in space. 00:53:00.380 --> 00:53:00.500 Right. 00:53:00.540 --> 00:53:00.780 Yes. 00:53:01.060 --> 00:53:02.400 So that's why I was thinking. 00:53:02.880 --> 00:53:04.920 That's where the Daleks make their appearance at the end. 00:53:05.460 --> 00:53:07.600 And then the Doctor goes to the planet of the Daleks. 00:53:07.740 --> 00:53:07.840 Yes. 00:53:08.840 --> 00:53:09.540 Popping on the court. 00:53:09.620 --> 00:53:09.720 Yes. 00:53:09.940 --> 00:53:12.480 That's an incredibly poor use of a quarry. 00:53:12.860 --> 00:53:14.480 That's a very long detour to get to. 00:53:14.860 --> 00:53:20.340 That's a very poor use of a quarry because, you know, they might as well have just left the quarry equipment out. 00:53:20.480 --> 00:53:22.220 It looks so much like a quarry. 00:53:22.540 --> 00:53:28.480 At least here, it looks like a shattered planet, a desolate shattered planet. 00:53:28.820 --> 00:53:30.540 So that's what you do with it. 00:53:30.720 --> 00:53:32.880 The time you spend and the money and the effort. 00:53:33.540 --> 00:53:34.320 Yes, it is. 00:53:34.660 --> 00:53:36.560 And it's using it in the right way. 00:53:36.940 --> 00:53:42.920 And it's being willing to do it even after it's become something of a joke that Doctor Who gets filmed in quarries. 00:53:43.140 --> 00:53:43.940 So good on them. 00:53:44.540 --> 00:53:47.340 I think next that they should intentionally make a wobbly set. 00:53:48.080 --> 00:53:58.040 They should go to a planet where they go to a planet where the aliens build basically light frame wobbly plastic walls for their buildings. 00:53:58.530 --> 00:54:00.720 So that everything they touch wobbles. 00:54:01.030 --> 00:54:04.640 You can't get through it because it's like super alien plastic. 00:54:04.940 --> 00:54:06.760 But nonetheless, they wobble all the time. 00:54:06.880 --> 00:54:09.900 I think I'm going to, does Chibnall have Twitter? 00:54:10.040 --> 00:54:11.900 I need to submit that idea to him. 00:54:13.540 --> 00:54:15.000 Totally needs to do that one. 00:54:15.340 --> 00:54:17.800 Let's get them all out of the way right now. 00:54:18.140 --> 00:54:18.760 All right. 00:54:20.640 --> 00:54:26.080 Okay, well, this is it for the season series proper, 00:54:26.280 --> 00:54:30.040 but we will be back for the New Year's special, 00:54:30.620 --> 00:54:32.360 which name is Resurrection? 00:54:32.660 --> 00:54:33.100 No, no, no. 00:54:33.760 --> 00:54:34.080 Resolution. 00:54:34.580 --> 00:54:35.040 Resolution. 00:54:35.190 --> 00:54:36.540 Well, I hope they solved that. 00:54:36.820 --> 00:54:37.880 yeah it's the res 00:54:40.100 --> 00:54:40.540 oh 00:54:43.660 --> 00:54:44.340 oh darn it 00:54:45.320 --> 00:54:46.820 resolution of the Daleks 00:54:49.580 --> 00:54:50.980 I wish I hadn't thought of that 00:54:51.250 --> 00:54:52.940 I really wish I had crossed my mind 00:54:53.580 --> 00:54:55.040 they're gonna bring those Daleks back 00:54:55.050 --> 00:54:56.440 I know they're gonna bring those Daleks back 00:54:56.560 --> 00:54:59.000 they're not gonna resist bringing the damn Daleks back 00:54:59.620 --> 00:55:01.080 Chibnall will have kept his word 00:55:01.380 --> 00:55:03.200 I told you we're not bringing back 00:55:03.540 --> 00:55:04.980 any old villains this series 00:55:06.160 --> 00:55:06.560 yeah 00:55:06.660 --> 00:55:07.480 Yeah, well, it's fair. 00:55:07.680 --> 00:55:08.500 He did. 00:55:08.720 --> 00:55:08.960 He did. 00:55:09.320 --> 00:55:09.460 So. 00:55:09.860 --> 00:55:10.360 Fair game. 00:55:10.620 --> 00:55:11.240 Whatever's next. 00:55:11.410 --> 00:55:11.880 Fair enough. 00:55:12.140 --> 00:55:12.380 Yeah. 00:55:13.680 --> 00:55:14.420 Didn't break his word. 00:55:14.500 --> 00:55:15.500 He's made it through to the end. 00:55:15.900 --> 00:55:16.160 All right. 00:55:16.520 --> 00:55:16.760 All right. 00:55:16.760 --> 00:55:18.180 Well, Simon, thank you for joining me. 00:55:18.620 --> 00:55:19.640 It's a pleasure, as always. 00:55:23.219 --> 00:55:29.260 And listeners, I do hope you'll join us all again next time on Fusion Patrol. 00:55:34.440 --> 00:55:37.920 You've been listening to Fusion Patrol, a listener-supported podcast. 00:55:38.690 --> 00:55:46.040 Find out how you can be a sponsor and get early access to all episodes and more at patreon.com slash fusion patrol. 00:55:47.940 --> 00:55:50.680 Come join the conversation on Facebook or Twitter. 00:55:52.780 --> 00:55:55.480 All episodes are available at fusion patrol dot com. 00:55:56.760 --> 00:55:59.860 Our music is Fight the Future by Amber Wolf. 00:56:01.280 --> 00:56:03.740 This has been a Lone Locust production. 00:56:10.800 --> 00:56:13.080 I totally forgot to mention cheese and pickle sandwiches. 00:56:15.540 --> 00:56:17.680 A whole episode was about cheese and pickle sandwiches. 00:56:18.460 --> 00:56:19.760 I did that video. 00:56:20.140 --> 00:56:20.980 I did that video. 00:56:21.160 --> 00:56:25.020 It's for the Patreon subscribers so they can see a cheese and pickle sandwich in action. 00:56:25.580 --> 00:56:26.880 Let's just consider this a plug.