WEBVTT

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We take a single episode of a science fiction TV series and overanalyze it to within an

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inch of its life.

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This is the Fusion Patrol podcast.

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Welcome to the discussion.

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Hello and welcome to another episode of Fusion Patrol. I'm Eugene.

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And I'm Simon.

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And tonight we are looking at the Doctor Who episode, It Takes You Away.

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In a wild part of Norway, the doc and the gang find a creepy barricaded house.

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They notice someone peering out a crack from within and go to investigate.

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Inside, they find a lone blind girl named Hana.

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The house is besieged by a monster.

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Her father barricaded the house to protect her.

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But four days earlier, her father went missing, taken by the monster.

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A monster which, like clockwork every day, makes its presence known from the woods.

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The gang hole up in the house and wait for its arrival.

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Soon they discover a strange mirror in Hana's father's bedroom.

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The mirror is a portal to somewhere else.

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The doctor, Graham, and Yaz go through the looking grass into the upside down, looking for answers.

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Inside, they encounter Ribbon of the Seven's stomachs, an implausibly notivated character in an implausibly explained universe.

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He agrees to show them where Hana's father went in exchange for the sonic screwdriver.

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He is, however, eaten by an implausible swarm of flesh maws when he attempts to double-cross the Doctor.

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Meanwhile, back in the real universe, Ryan discovers that the monster in the woods is just a sound system timed to play recorded roars at the same time every day.

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But before he can tell anyone, Hana has escaped through the mirror, looking for her father.

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Ryan follows her.

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The gang find another portal, through which they pass, finding another universe mirrored to the one they left.

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Once there, they encounter the real monster of the story, Eric, a loathsome, pestilous scumbag of a human being,

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who also happens to be Hana's missing father.

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A monster so foul that he imprisoned his blind daughter in a remote house in the middle of nowhere,

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with limited food supplies, no heat, no electricity,

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and paralyzed her with fear by engineering a fake monster to terrify her and keep her in place,

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just so that he could live an idyllic life in a parallel universe

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where it seems that his wife is still alive.

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From a nursery story the doctor was once told,

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she deduces that this universe is of the Solitrach,

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a thing so inimical to the other universes

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that it had to be banished to form its own universe where it exists all alone.

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Both the Solitrak and the real universe will be destroyed if they continue to interact,

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because of course they will.

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The Doctor must get Eric to return.

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A curveball is thrown when Grace shows up,

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and now Graham has reason not to leave either.

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Things are looking bad, but then Hana, but not Ryan,

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manages to pass through the portal into the Solitrax universe,

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and she uses her comic book blind person superpowers

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to instantly detect that the person her so-called father has abandoned her for is a fake.

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When Graham realizes that Grace isn't worried about Ryan being trapped,

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he rejects her for the fake she is and is ejected back into the Upside Down.

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One by one, they are all rejected and are ejected by the Solitrak,

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all except Eric and the Doctor.

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The Doctor uses the fact that the Solitrak has no loyalty to Eric

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and trades herself as the perfect companion for the Solitrak,

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which promptly ejects the superfluous Eric.

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Unfortunately, with even one person in the Solitrak's universe,

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both universes are still collapsing,

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and the Doctor convinces the Solitrak to eject her as well,

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leaving the Solitrak behind in the form of a frog

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that never got kissed and turned into a prince.

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Back in the real universe,

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everything is going to work out fine

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for Hana and her disgusting scumbucket father.

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Similarly, it looks like Ryan has finally accepted Graham as his grandfather.

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The end.

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I haven't read your review.

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Just want you to know that.

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Fair enough.

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What did you think of this episode?

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I loved it.

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My feelings might be plain from that recap.

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Really.

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Oh, yes.

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I made the mistake of watching it twice.

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I can't understand how that's a mistake, but still.

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Well, the first time through,

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I thought it was just another mediocre episode

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in a string of mediocre episodes.

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But the second time through, it really began to gnaw at me, all the things that were wrong with it.

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So, and if I were Chris Chibnall, I'd ask Ed Heim for his money back.

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I'm not impressed by this guy's writing.

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Has he ever done anything before?

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Because I would put him in the end of his professional career here, but I really thought this was badly done.

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It's got a couple nice moments in it, but that's down to the acting.

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There is some good acting.

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Graham and Grace.

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And they've done a reasonably good job with an actress who is not sighted in the part.

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Almost convincingly believed that she could walk through a cave by herself, unobstructed for a while.

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But I'm guessing it has very nice floors.

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But just from a sensical point, it's just...

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She actually was walking through the cave.

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Much there.

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She was.

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I saw her.

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Yeah.

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Yeah, she did.

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The fact you believed her.

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And it wasn't so...

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Because you could see her doing it.

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Well, no, I just didn't believe it was a cave.

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See, that's where it falls apart.

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It's like when you see the caves on, I don't know, Underworld, and you know that it's a studio floor.

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But on the other hand, if you see Planet of Evil,

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which is some brilliant studio work for creating the Planet of Evil

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and going way back in Doctor Who,

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this is obviously a studio floor with some mist over the bottom of it

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so you can't see it.

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And it kind of...

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Yes.

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There are some problems with that.

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Anyway.

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Well, there are.

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But then on the other hand,

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This is this is it's these kinds of really completely and utterly crazy high concept episodes that go beyond where the budget for sets and special effects can actually
comfortably realise them.

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But yet are they it's worth extending your imagination.

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I'm thinking of things like Warrior's Gate or Enlightenment because the ideas that they are presenting are so completely out of it.

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the kind of usual run-of-the-mill stuff.

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And in particular with this, it's surreal in the way it pivots

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in terms of what kind of story it is,

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because the whole production feel of the first sequence,

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where it appears to be some kind of Nordic noir,

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and a very effective one, I thought,

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a very kind of tense horror

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that I would have been quite happy to carry on watching

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for the full 50 minutes but the fact that it then turns into this kind of obviously studio bound

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inter-universe anti-zone thing with Kevin Eldon doing his complete nuts thing and flesh moths

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everywhere and then again shifts into this kind of extraordinary alternative universe with its

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it's kind of seductive reflections on loss and longing and the rest of it.

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To me, that's what makes the episode so exhilarating

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because you really, really don't know.

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It's not just where is it going,

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it's actually what manner of beast is it going to be in five minutes' time.

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I think it's a really difficult thing to do

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and I'm not totally surprised that you

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and I think a number of other people didn't particularly care for this episode

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But then I think episodes like Warrior's Gate are fairly Marmite as well.

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But I still think, you know, that is one of the great, great stories of the original run of Doctor Who.

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So where you see it pivoting, I see it not knowing what it wants to do.

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I feel like the first part and the second part make sense together.

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What do you mean by the second part?

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Sorry, third part.

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First part is doorway.

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Second part is the anti-zone.

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Third part is Mirror Norway.

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The three pieces, right?

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The three distinct chunks of space-time that we passed through.

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And they could have abandoned the anti-zone completely

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and had a more cohesive whole,

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but it would have been remarkably short.

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And...

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Well, I'm not sure it would,

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because I think there was plenty of space

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for the other things to expand.

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And I also, I mean, in many ways,

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I think the very best episodes are episodes where they just take a single idea and do it really, really well.

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I mean, my favourite episode, The Girl Who Waited, is just one idea, but explored to the full.

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And it's kind of an episode that is beautifully structured and crafted.

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The acting is just amazing. The whole thing is directed brilliantly.

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And it's almost flawless.

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This is not an episode that is flawless.

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I think that the shifts, particularly in production style, are incredibly jarring.

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And the number of ideas that fly at you from this are almost overwhelming.

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And none of them has really got space to breathe.

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If you had cut some part of it out, I think you could easily have filled it by exploring those ideas more.

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And yet somehow I think it really worked the way it was.

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And the anti-zone, you couldn't have cut it out and it's still been as good.

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And I'm not even sure I believe that they don't know what they were doing with it.

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I think it was intended to be completely different from the kind of very realistic,

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subdued location shot sequences that were ostensibly in Norway.

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because you don't produce the effects that you have in there by accident.

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It's not just the kind of obvious studio sets

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and the sort of dry ice and the rest of it.

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It's actually the whole thing is lit with bright primary colours

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and, you know, you have this crazy makeup on ribbons

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and these outlandish monsters and everything.

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I'm sure it is all done deliberately.

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Well, I'm sure it was.

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I didn't think they improvised it or anything like that.

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I just...

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No, but I was wondering what fights went on in the tone meetings

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where they were saying,

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what we want to do is realize something completely incongruous.

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That how do you persuade,

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I mean, I don't know where the idea came from,

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but how do you persuade all the different people involved in the production

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that they have to work opposite to each other

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when their instinct and their usual process is try and coordinate everything?

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Stranger Things is where they got the idea.

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Oh, I haven't seen that.

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I couldn't help thinking.

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That's why I referred to it as the upside down.

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But it's not a perfect parallel, but it was pretty obvious.

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Or it felt very derivative, which is a dark off place from where they are.

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But anyway, we'll go into that.

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You should see the Stranger Things, though.

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It's on my list.

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So there are some things I'm going to...

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So we'll talk about the production for a second then.

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I was very impressed, particularly on second watch through,

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of the unreality of the mirror universe.

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It's the same place.

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I think they've shot it backwards.

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I think they reversed it.

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You mean...

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I mean, literally reversed it.

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Flipped it, I think.

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I can't tell, but I think they flipped it.

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And of course, they've graded it very differently.

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Have they flipped the people?

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That is a...

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If they did flip the people,

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then they would have had to...

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Because you would notice that, wouldn't you?

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That's a good question.

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And it was one of the reasons

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I wanted to watch it a second time.

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And I can't tell.

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I don't see any obvious signs

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of right and left-handedness.

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I didn't see anything like that.

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But, you know, I mean, yes,

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they could have rebuilt the sets.

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And yes, maybe they could have

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redressed the outside of the house

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and everything.

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But it feels like they did

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a pretty effective job.

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They also graded it differently.

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So even when it's daylight...

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Yeah.

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Well, I don't know.

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That may actually be...

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That's probably in post.

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I've seen enough now that they shoot everything nicely

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and then they ruin it in post,

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which I think they use grading so much nowadays.

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Well, possibly.

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But when I've watched them filming Doctor Who,

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they do bring their own son.

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Oh, yeah.

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Oh, yeah, yeah.

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Well, they'd have to, wouldn't they?

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They're in Wales.

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Ouch.

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But, by the way,

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I haven't found anybody that knows where that was shot.

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I have no idea.

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I searched and I couldn't find it.

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I wanted to see if it was Scotland.

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It looks a bit like a place, as I've seen in the Highlands,

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but I'm sure they might have that in the Wales as well, probably.

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I would have thought it was probably Wales.

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Yeah.

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But, you know, that was very nice.

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The interzone, right, it has that stranger things feel to it,

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but there's things about it, and I'll just mention this.

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When they walk through and they say there's no light here,

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but then they talk about shards of light, there's shards of light everywhere.

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No, don't see that.

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at one point it could be an expression it could be uh it could be another sample where Graham is

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talking about flaming rocks not sure maybe that's a British expression or flaming rocks or something

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but it sounded like he was talking about there were flaming rocks there and there weren't any

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and I kind of wonder if it was in the script but they just didn't have time money realization to

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to realize what was going on in the zone.

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Well, the shards of light weren't in the zone.

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It was looking into the mirror.

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Was that what it was?

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Yes.

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I'd have to go back and look at the effect they had.

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It was when the mirror was stuck in transition.

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Yeah, but at that point, they were through the thing

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and looking deeper into the anti-zone.

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So, all right.

00:14:49.500 --> 00:14:50.460
Then let's...

00:14:50.460 --> 00:14:51.260
Here's my first question.

00:14:51.420 --> 00:14:52.660
Did Eric cross the anti-zone?

00:14:53.000 --> 00:14:53.260
Yes.

00:14:53.440 --> 00:14:53.740
He did.

00:14:54.040 --> 00:14:55.200
Oh, maybe he did.

00:14:55.720 --> 00:14:59.480
See, because the doctor said that the anti-zone formed up.

00:15:00.000 --> 00:15:00.100
Yeah.

00:15:00.660 --> 00:15:03.240
I'm thinking you wouldn't have gone through.

00:15:05.540 --> 00:15:06.300
I don't know.

00:15:06.500 --> 00:15:13.520
It seems like one of those things that you wouldn't, if you walk through the mirror, you wouldn't keep going if you weren't looking for something.

00:15:13.580 --> 00:15:13.900
Maybe not.

00:15:14.130 --> 00:15:18.260
Especially with all the flesh moths, which are the only thing I thought was cool in this episode.

00:15:18.630 --> 00:15:19.900
I hope the flesh moths return.

00:15:21.000 --> 00:15:22.680
But maybe the anti-zone has grown.

00:15:23.270 --> 00:15:26.660
Well, certainly the doctor said it was created.

00:15:27.020 --> 00:15:29.080
So it could easily be that we don't.

00:15:29.680 --> 00:15:32.000
Yeah, it was a day since Eric left.

00:15:32.100 --> 00:15:32.300
Four.

00:15:32.560 --> 00:15:33.660
Yeah, four days since he left.

00:15:33.760 --> 00:15:34.380
Oh, four days.

00:15:34.630 --> 00:15:34.920
Four days.

00:15:35.280 --> 00:15:37.820
So yes, it could certainly have entirely grown in that time.

00:15:38.140 --> 00:15:39.160
I think that's what they were.

00:15:39.580 --> 00:15:40.560
I think that's where we're getting at.

00:15:40.620 --> 00:15:48.080
Because I could see how if you were the Solitract and you created a mirror and the guy walks through it and there you are in another universe and your wife's there.

00:15:48.500 --> 00:15:52.720
I can see that, especially, but then the zone forms.

00:15:52.960 --> 00:15:54.540
That's another story.

00:15:54.730 --> 00:15:57.920
And she did say it got thrust in there to try to break it apart.

00:15:59.600 --> 00:16:00.700
Okay, let's see.

00:16:02.060 --> 00:16:05.920
Honestly, I am and I'm not trying to just pick, pick, pick, pick.

00:16:06.860 --> 00:16:12.860
Tell me what you like about it, about this door.

00:16:13.100 --> 00:16:17.920
I mean, you know, I have on my cards on the table.

00:16:18.040 --> 00:16:23.060
The whole thing with the monster, of course, was came to nothing because it was nothing.

00:16:23.350 --> 00:16:24.200
There was no monster.

00:16:24.600 --> 00:16:26.740
Well, Eric, and I'll stand by that.

00:16:27.080 --> 00:16:28.420
And no, I agree.

00:16:28.620 --> 00:16:28.920
I agree.

00:16:29.730 --> 00:16:41.300
I mean, I thought I thought there were there were some very dark elements in that, which I which I enjoyed in that in the kind of the Norwegian horror bit of the story.

00:16:42.200 --> 00:16:45.500
in which I'll kind of include Eric's behaviour.

00:16:46.360 --> 00:16:51.040
And I liked the fact that they were starting out,

00:16:51.320 --> 00:16:54.660
again, I think it's something that has been quite common in this series,

00:16:54.880 --> 00:16:57.840
that they can start out with the tone being quite whimsical

00:16:58.120 --> 00:17:00.060
and all the discussion about the Woolly Rebellion.

00:17:01.420 --> 00:17:05.680
And then turn on a dime into this kind of very,

00:17:06.520 --> 00:17:09.160
very kind of real and immediate threat,

00:17:09.500 --> 00:17:11.560
because they react to the monster.

00:17:11.959 --> 00:17:18.000
And from their reaction, you get, again, you get the sense of them really taking it seriously.

00:17:18.120 --> 00:17:22.900
And I think the mirror with no reflection in it is a really creepy device.

00:17:23.199 --> 00:17:25.520
And so I thought all of that was effective.

00:17:25.980 --> 00:17:35.880
But the darkness of the, well, both of what Eric does to Anna, but also actually of the doctor writing on the wall,

00:17:35.960 --> 00:17:41.580
assume her dad is dead, knowing that as she's blind, she's not going to be able to read.

00:17:41.680 --> 00:17:43.780
and then lying to her and saying it's a map.

00:17:44.940 --> 00:17:47.060
That's pretty dark, really.

00:17:47.820 --> 00:17:48.180
True.

00:17:49.580 --> 00:17:54.300
I like that, and I like the fact that the Doctor didn't get away with it,

00:17:54.360 --> 00:17:59.980
or at least in the sense that she didn't successfully deceive Hannah,

00:18:00.120 --> 00:18:03.900
even if she wasn't actually called up on action there.

00:18:04.120 --> 00:18:08.880
She also was remarkably blasé about what Eric did.

00:18:09.480 --> 00:18:10.040
Remarkably.

00:18:10.220 --> 00:18:10.960
Perhaps.

00:18:11.040 --> 00:18:15.280
perhaps you know i mean grant graham and graham and yes were much more outraged and they weren't

00:18:15.460 --> 00:18:22.580
that outraged and um i thought the doctor in particular was getting quite distracted at that

00:18:22.740 --> 00:18:30.600
point certain amount of truth to that i don't know i i it just it didn't i mean the the realization

00:18:31.020 --> 00:18:37.619
of what how horrible he really was just didn't seem to hit him i mean it just didn't come across

00:18:37.960 --> 00:18:42.760
and and i think that's partially because they have to sweep it under the rug so they can have a happy

00:18:42.980 --> 00:18:49.220
ending with father and daughter reunited and and okay i realized my mistake like that's a hell of

00:18:49.220 --> 00:18:55.520
a mistake it's not a mistake it's a crime you want her to divorce him or you want him you want him

00:18:55.720 --> 00:19:03.159
in jail yeah well she might be better i agree i agree i don't i don't know i because i because

00:19:03.180 --> 00:19:09.340
i agree his actions are monstrous but on the other hand he is i'm i'm not i'm not wanting to

00:19:09.620 --> 00:19:15.680
defend him so this isn't this isn't a justification of his actions but he is a grief-stricken widower

00:19:16.040 --> 00:19:21.720
whose whose rationality is bound to be impaired by the kind of extreme emotional feelings that

00:19:21.720 --> 00:19:29.500
he has again it's not an excuse it was no and he is guilty this is merely mitigation right and i

00:19:29.320 --> 00:19:30.540
I mean, Graham says it.

00:19:30.740 --> 00:19:31.840
Get your priorities straight.

00:19:32.280 --> 00:19:36.060
And it's the right thing that it comes from Graham.

00:19:36.100 --> 00:19:38.960
It has more strength coming from Graham than it would from the doctor

00:19:39.480 --> 00:19:43.340
because we have seen Graham so recently bereaved.

00:19:43.920 --> 00:19:45.160
So, yeah.

00:19:46.820 --> 00:19:51.560
It's just, you know, the more I looked at it, the more, the worse it seemed.

00:19:52.040 --> 00:19:53.160
It's certainly pretty bad.

00:19:53.840 --> 00:19:56.680
The second pass through, you realize there's no electricity in the house.

00:19:57.080 --> 00:19:58.140
There's no heat in the house.

00:19:58.700 --> 00:20:00.280
There's very little food.

00:20:00.780 --> 00:20:06.860
It kind of looks like Anna's been collecting nuts from the trees outside at one point

00:20:07.320 --> 00:20:12.200
because they've got a bunch of nuts on the table and a pair of pliers to crack them open.

00:20:13.620 --> 00:20:15.100
Yes, candy wrappers on the floor.

00:20:15.380 --> 00:20:15.840
A couple things.

00:20:16.120 --> 00:20:18.540
No light in the refrigerator indicating no power.

00:20:19.780 --> 00:20:21.440
I mean, she doesn't need the lights overhead, obviously,

00:20:21.720 --> 00:20:23.860
but the refrigerator wouldn't make that distinction.

00:20:24.380 --> 00:20:27.480
A chapter in the house, she says there's no people around for miles.

00:20:28.080 --> 00:20:32.260
She apparently has no phone, no internet, no connection.

00:20:32.400 --> 00:20:33.840
I mean, he's left her there to die.

00:20:34.120 --> 00:20:35.340
I mean, it's plain and simple.

00:20:35.620 --> 00:20:37.020
He has not left her there to die.

00:20:37.340 --> 00:20:42.080
I mean, everything you said up to that point, I'm like, yep, that is pretty damning.

00:20:42.320 --> 00:20:43.400
He's not left her there to die.

00:20:43.560 --> 00:20:44.340
That's not his intention.

00:20:45.520 --> 00:20:47.140
What he's done is negligent.

00:20:47.280 --> 00:20:48.540
It's more than negligent, though.

00:20:48.860 --> 00:20:49.740
He set it up.

00:20:50.080 --> 00:20:50.760
It's gross negligence.

00:20:51.480 --> 00:20:52.660
Of course he set it up.

00:20:52.900 --> 00:20:55.580
It's negligent just not doing what you need to do.

00:20:55.720 --> 00:20:56.720
But he did set it up.

00:20:56.820 --> 00:20:57.760
He set up the monster.

00:20:57.960 --> 00:20:59.680
He set up the barricades to trap her.

00:20:59.760 --> 00:21:02.360
I mean, that goes beyond gross negligence.

00:21:02.560 --> 00:21:04.340
That's an active act of harm.

00:21:07.200 --> 00:21:08.480
It's way over the line.

00:21:09.260 --> 00:21:10.080
It's way over the line.

00:21:10.080 --> 00:21:10.460
It's over the line.

00:21:10.580 --> 00:21:11.160
It's over the line.

00:21:11.280 --> 00:21:12.900
His intention is not to kill her.

00:21:13.180 --> 00:21:14.880
His intention is not even to harm her.

00:21:15.200 --> 00:21:18.640
No, I think there's...

00:21:18.640 --> 00:21:24.620
Yeah, all right, I'll take it that I don't think he actively intended for her to die.

00:21:25.680 --> 00:21:33.140
But he certainly intentionally put her in a trap, which he knows she will die if he does not return.

00:21:33.560 --> 00:21:36.020
He certainly, yeah, he certainly should be aware of that.

00:21:36.140 --> 00:21:38.260
So, and his, oh, she was fine.

00:21:38.420 --> 00:21:39.060
She's a teenager.

00:21:39.260 --> 00:21:44.020
It's like, she's a blind teenager in the middle of nowhere with no resources.

00:21:44.380 --> 00:21:45.080
Come on.

00:21:45.460 --> 00:21:46.080
Come on.

00:21:46.920 --> 00:21:55.120
I know you're, I know you got your wife there and you've had four days of conjugal fun that you probably,

00:21:56.640 --> 00:22:03.260
But no, I'm not forgiving and not appreciative of the doctor forgiving.

00:22:03.780 --> 00:22:08.700
And probably should be finding her another foster home or something while he gets some proper help.

00:22:09.680 --> 00:22:13.520
I realize it's a very outside the ordinary circumstance.

00:22:14.080 --> 00:22:16.760
Your dead wife doesn't just come back every day through a mirror.

00:22:17.150 --> 00:22:17.820
I get that.

00:22:18.100 --> 00:22:18.220
Yeah.

00:22:18.520 --> 00:22:20.879
But still, it's...

00:22:20.900 --> 00:22:33.120
I also do not like, and for a show that did a pretty darn good job with a blind character and a blind actress,

00:22:33.660 --> 00:22:41.340
they did a really good job until she got to the point where she hugged fake mom and her incredible blind person powers told her that it wasn't mom.

00:22:41.700 --> 00:22:45.840
See, it's interesting that you interpreted that as incredible blind person powers.

00:22:46.100 --> 00:22:55.400
It's what it seems like, the comic book thing where suddenly the blind persons can hear the fly land on the thing, or they can sense through touch that this isn't the
right thing.

00:22:55.420 --> 00:22:59.580
It's like, it feels like magic to me.

00:22:59.900 --> 00:23:02.480
It felt, I mean, that didn't even occur to me.

00:23:02.720 --> 00:23:05.060
Didn't even occur to me it had anything to do with her being blind.

00:23:05.780 --> 00:23:05.960
Hmm.

00:23:06.680 --> 00:23:07.880
Why do you think she rejected it?

00:23:08.140 --> 00:23:13.420
well I assumed it was I mean I don't know I don't know I'd have to go back and re-watch it to see

00:23:13.520 --> 00:23:19.960
whether there was anything on screen or whether this was just my assumption essentially that it

00:23:20.000 --> 00:23:28.640
was because she's a child and both Eric and Graham are adults but that that that may not that may not

00:23:28.640 --> 00:23:33.960
be something I've got from what we're actually presented with but then again I'm not sure we're

00:23:33.960 --> 00:23:39.800
presented with anything that said this is because she has special blind person powers well i don't

00:23:39.800 --> 00:23:45.680
think they unless i missed something i i mean i don't think that they were trying to to give her

00:23:45.780 --> 00:23:53.500
superpowers but i i think that that's such a common trope um in i agree i agree it's a common trope i

00:23:53.510 --> 00:23:59.179
just didn't think it i didn't well i mean she hears her mom she she her face brightens she looks over

00:23:59.200 --> 00:24:01.220
they extend to

00:24:01.420 --> 00:24:03.320
hug and as soon as she hugs her then

00:24:03.580 --> 00:24:05.440
suddenly she's like no that's not my

00:24:05.540 --> 00:24:07.120
mom. But it's I mean if

00:24:07.420 --> 00:24:09.140
it was a if it was a superpower

00:24:09.540 --> 00:24:10.840
wouldn't she have been able to do it by

00:24:11.160 --> 00:24:12.460
hearing the difference or

00:24:12.810 --> 00:24:14.620
I don't know. I don't know.

00:24:15.020 --> 00:24:17.360
It just it just seems like she made that

00:24:17.580 --> 00:24:19.440
determination based on a hug

00:24:20.060 --> 00:24:21.400
and apparently dad

00:24:21.940 --> 00:24:23.540
doesn't notice it and I suspect dad's

00:24:23.540 --> 00:24:24.320
done more than hug.

00:24:25.680 --> 00:24:26.960
So I don't know.

00:24:27.380 --> 00:24:28.780
But isn't it from a feeling?

00:24:29.060 --> 00:24:29.600
Isn't it from...

00:24:29.760 --> 00:24:30.500
I don't know.

00:24:30.540 --> 00:24:30.980
I don't know.

00:24:32.280 --> 00:24:32.800
It just...

00:24:33.200 --> 00:24:35.200
It wasn't something that even occurred to me.

00:24:35.700 --> 00:24:39.600
So I had a completely different understanding of that scene in my head.

00:24:39.600 --> 00:24:43.820
And without going back and re-watching it, I don't really know where it's come from.

00:24:44.440 --> 00:24:44.680
Okay.

00:24:45.960 --> 00:24:47.680
One thing, you were talking about Dark.

00:24:48.540 --> 00:24:51.440
Pretty well parallels Ryan, doesn't it, on here?

00:24:51.820 --> 00:24:55.640
Ryan's dad apparently left because his mom died.

00:24:56.580 --> 00:25:03.560
think we got that from one of the episodes yes i see what you mean um ryan of course was dead right

00:25:03.960 --> 00:25:08.720
when he worked on the assumption that dad just abandoned her when everyone else is shocked by

00:25:08.880 --> 00:25:17.440
that ryan's like what he done a runner um yes i i i i think you're right i said and i said because

00:25:17.640 --> 00:25:23.059
the whole the whole the whole kind of ryan relationship is an important development in

00:25:23.080 --> 00:25:28.160
the story so it's one of the that just adds to it it's one of the few things that works for me

00:25:28.520 --> 00:25:36.860
in it is that you know ryan is is right he's dead on right the guy dumped her um they dad has to face

00:25:36.860 --> 00:25:43.640
his loss graham has to face his loss ryan doesn't actually because he's he's insulated from from

00:25:43.720 --> 00:25:55.200
running into grace again um and i feel like i i've i've felt like ryan has been unfairly distancing

00:25:55.600 --> 00:26:03.500
graham throughout the season yes um and i think this is kind of the right thing to to break that

00:26:03.640 --> 00:26:10.700
yes i think that that that part does work does work for me um i i think it's a lovely bit of

00:26:10.540 --> 00:26:16.660
writing when Ryan takes the initiative because obviously as you say he he was insulated from

00:26:17.140 --> 00:26:23.160
seeing Grace he doesn't know that Grace was there other than that the others tell him it's not

00:26:23.320 --> 00:26:27.580
Graham who tells him so it's he's not in a position where he has to react to what Graham has said

00:26:27.880 --> 00:26:34.699
he then makes a choice to take the initiative to talk about that with Graham so and and that that

00:26:34.720 --> 00:26:41.180
just contrasts with where he's come from in that scene on the boat in the ghost monument where

00:26:41.600 --> 00:26:45.460
Graham was saying you need to talk more and he was saying I I want to talk less.

00:26:46.960 --> 00:26:53.660
Well I think he has the opportunity there to have empathy for Graham without having to live through

00:26:53.800 --> 00:26:58.939
it himself does that make sense? So when Grace died they both had to they both had to grieve

00:26:59.120 --> 00:27:04.360
and that didn't leave Ryan any time to grieve with Graham, let's say.

00:27:05.220 --> 00:27:07.600
It's a solitary process for them.

00:27:07.740 --> 00:27:09.780
Well, yes, it is.

00:27:09.860 --> 00:27:12.620
Here he sees that Graham is grieving again,

00:27:13.210 --> 00:27:15.660
and this time he can empathize with that

00:27:15.890 --> 00:27:18.980
instead of having had to have been through it himself.

00:27:19.600 --> 00:27:21.460
So, yeah, no, it's a nice setup.

00:27:23.800 --> 00:27:27.760
I do feel it's a little late than it should have been,

00:27:27.840 --> 00:27:34.320
but um i i don't know i me that felt quite natural there's a couple things well there's a couple

00:27:34.440 --> 00:27:40.120
reasons for that one is that they have been working as a team for not just the episodes

00:27:40.460 --> 00:27:46.160
that we've seen but it's been very clear that lots of things have happened in between the episodes

00:27:46.480 --> 00:27:52.819
we've seen yeah two so they've been at this for a while they've been relying on each other they've

00:27:52.840 --> 00:27:58.500
been they've been working well together and yet every time we see Graham try to make any kind of

00:27:58.700 --> 00:28:04.660
connection there suddenly Ryan rejects it and it it just feels to me not like hey it's only 10

00:28:04.880 --> 00:28:09.920
weeks since since your your gran died it feels like it's been a lot longer and they have been

00:28:10.080 --> 00:28:18.099
through a lot more together and the thawing has been too slow. Graham is essentially a stepdad to

00:28:18.120 --> 00:28:26.080
ryan yeah and it's it's not it's not that grace's death has caused the distance between them it's

00:28:26.600 --> 00:28:32.960
something that was there before oh yeah and and graham had been married to grace for four years

00:28:33.500 --> 00:28:40.880
so and this is not this is not uncommon that it does take years and years for relationships

00:28:41.520 --> 00:28:49.120
if ever for relationships between stepchildren and and step parents to overcome some of the

00:28:49.120 --> 00:28:57.120
the kind of underlying issues so yeah no i i i get that um the the i the idea that they they

00:28:57.140 --> 00:29:04.280
could rub along spend a lot of time together even be in in many ways kind of dependent on one and

00:29:04.300 --> 00:29:11.140
one another in situations of great danger that you can still bond in certain ways without

00:29:11.980 --> 00:29:17.680
necessarily developing a kind of emotional openness that i think is what we saw growing

00:29:18.080 --> 00:29:24.300
in this episode okay perhaps and on top of all that ryan is 19 or something you know and he's a

00:29:24.480 --> 00:29:30.680
young 19 perhaps it's not it's not a question of whether or not i believe it's realistic perhaps

00:29:30.700 --> 00:29:35.500
it's a question of whether or not I believe that the acting and the writing that they've put there

00:29:35.980 --> 00:29:44.660
makes it feel realistic. Because it still feels like from the acting then, that they're a lot

00:29:44.840 --> 00:29:51.440
closer. And that it's still that, it's the, you know, you forget how to breathe the moment you

00:29:51.620 --> 00:29:55.100
think about breathing, right? You never think about it. And as soon as you think about it,

00:29:55.180 --> 00:29:58.400
then suddenly you're like, darn it, now I can't, now I'm not going to be able to breathe unless I

00:29:58.420 --> 00:30:05.040
think about it for a while because it it sorry listeners and um breathe and um

00:30:07.560 --> 00:30:13.440
the um when you think about it then it changes and it and we have been getting that from ryan

00:30:13.810 --> 00:30:21.000
that he feels he seems like he's totally on board with graham until it's mentioned and then he's

00:30:21.060 --> 00:30:28.300
like no yes and i guess i want to put i want to give ryan more credit for noticing that himself

00:30:28.620 --> 00:30:34.180
which he apparently has not and and you know maybe that's it maybe that's it i feel like

00:30:35.159 --> 00:30:40.200
ryan should have figured this out by now well but maybe but i think you may be overestimating his

00:30:40.440 --> 00:30:46.700
emotional intelligence he's not he's not portrayed i i think he's not portrayed as being either

00:30:46.980 --> 00:30:52.760
particularly mature true or and i you're gonna say particularly bright right i was gonna say

00:30:52.760 --> 00:30:58.340
not particularly bright and i i don't that's not to say he's thick okay fair enough it's not

00:30:58.780 --> 00:31:06.760
to say he hasn't it's not it's not to say he's he's unintelligent altogether but very average

00:31:07.140 --> 00:31:16.040
well certainly in in some ways what we've got is a guy who has at the very least coasted he's you

00:31:16.060 --> 00:31:21.860
you know, he's not been successful in school. He's gone out into the workplace and ended up in

00:31:22.090 --> 00:31:27.740
one of Amazon's warehouses. And he hasn't found it particularly satisfying, but nor has he

00:31:28.200 --> 00:31:33.700
shown any particular aptitude towards something that he does find satisfying or any initiative

00:31:34.180 --> 00:31:40.520
to find something better. And that's not, you know, having worked with many of them, that's not

00:31:40.540 --> 00:31:47.080
necessarily completely uncommon in 19 year olds and often you will meet people five years later

00:31:47.500 --> 00:31:53.040
and they have done a lot of growing up and they have actually developed in a number so from that

00:31:53.220 --> 00:31:59.980
point of view the performance that i'm seeing feels quite sort of both both consistent with that and

00:32:00.140 --> 00:32:08.500
and um and quite sort of true to life in many ways okay i won't i i won't say ryan is my favorite

00:32:08.520 --> 00:32:14.360
character because i absolutely love bradley walsh's performance graham he's he's wonderful

00:32:14.840 --> 00:32:23.520
and there is the um uh no name's gone but the actress who plays yasmin is i'm not sure which

00:32:23.520 --> 00:32:27.620
is which to be quite honest i don't look at the credits close enough to know whether mandip

00:32:27.920 --> 00:32:35.940
yes mandip gill isn't it thank you um i just think she has a kind of exceptional charisma and

00:32:35.980 --> 00:32:42.240
screen presence and I also think in in many ways because we know that she is a contemporary of

00:32:42.340 --> 00:32:46.780
Ryan's given that they were at school together she is the complete opposite of many of the things

00:32:46.940 --> 00:32:54.800
I've just described so she has matured a great deal she's gone looking for employment or career

00:32:55.040 --> 00:33:00.640
vocation for her she's gone for a career she's gone looking for something that really will satisfy her

00:33:00.660 --> 00:33:05.660
And she's impatient with it, you know, in many ways.

00:33:06.020 --> 00:33:10.920
The things that she should just be getting down to and plodding on with.

00:33:11.340 --> 00:33:16.960
She, as we saw in The Woman Who Fell to Earth, she's kind of impatient not to be moving faster.

00:33:18.599 --> 00:33:22.880
And there is something quite appealing about people like that.

00:33:23.520 --> 00:33:27.660
You know, people who are bright and ambitious and take the initiative.

00:33:27.720 --> 00:33:31.320
So I like her as well.

00:33:31.840 --> 00:33:39.300
And compared to them, you think if it was just the Doctor and Ryan bumbling around, it would not be such an interesting show.

00:33:40.020 --> 00:33:48.580
But it's not that I don't find Ryan a believable character or that I don't find the performance has the kind of depth to make him real.

00:33:49.310 --> 00:33:57.560
I don't know how your schools work in terms of classes, but definitely Yaz and Ryan weren't just at school together.

00:33:57.620 --> 00:34:04.580
they were in class together yes from therefore yes 19 as well yes is that realistic to be on

00:34:04.580 --> 00:34:11.419
the police force at 19 yes okay isn't it i don't know i don't i don't picture anybody getting a

00:34:11.860 --> 00:34:17.300
job at 19 in the police force but it's possible i thought there was some school and you had to go

00:34:17.460 --> 00:34:23.540
through to get to that beyond just you get you get trained i don't know what you mean by high

00:34:23.560 --> 00:34:31.080
school your your your terminology is not university anything prior to that yeah yeah so yeah universe

00:34:31.679 --> 00:34:36.280
right okay so prior i'll just tell you what we do shall i it's quicker yeah that's we so we have

00:34:36.350 --> 00:34:42.340
we have primary up to age 11 and we have secondary up to age 16 and that's your compulsory

00:34:42.679 --> 00:34:50.160
compulsory education you then have in between that and university which is typically aged 18

00:34:50.159 --> 00:34:57.320
what certainly used to be called sixth form and that often was because the the forms in secondary

00:34:57.360 --> 00:35:01.220
would start first form second form so that would that would often be staying at school

00:35:01.700 --> 00:35:05.520
and it's doing an extra two years but there are also sixth form colleges and you go somewhere

00:35:05.560 --> 00:35:13.280
else so um it is possible for yaz to have left school at age 16 okay whether or not you can get

00:35:13.460 --> 00:35:20.140
into hendon which would be the police training college without having done a levels or equivalent

00:35:20.160 --> 00:35:21.800
which would be the sixth form stuff.

00:35:21.980 --> 00:35:22.680
I don't know.

00:35:22.740 --> 00:35:24.080
I suspect it is.

00:35:24.320 --> 00:35:24.520
Okay.

00:35:24.900 --> 00:35:26.560
So I suspect that there are three years

00:35:26.800 --> 00:35:27.920
since she left school school

00:35:28.440 --> 00:35:30.980
and she's obviously done some time on the police

00:35:31.240 --> 00:35:33.740
because she's clearly getting impatient to move on,

00:35:33.880 --> 00:35:35.200
but maybe not much time.

00:35:35.520 --> 00:35:36.880
And she's done her training.

00:35:37.260 --> 00:35:40.240
From the end of our theoretically compulsory school,

00:35:41.540 --> 00:35:42.180
you'd be 18.

00:35:42.820 --> 00:35:44.860
So she would have only had a year.

00:35:45.540 --> 00:35:47.400
You cannot leave school as a 16 year old.

00:35:48.900 --> 00:35:49.980
You're not supposed to.

00:35:50.040 --> 00:35:56.080
you you would not complete anything you would not get your um the diploma you would need to

00:35:56.080 --> 00:36:02.660
get into a university you would uh you could not get well a ged which is the equivalent uh that you

00:36:02.820 --> 00:36:07.520
take if you don't complete school so people do i think you can legally drop out of school at 16 but

00:36:07.820 --> 00:36:12.420
it you actually have to do this paperwork that has to be done for that like if you if you're a

00:36:12.680 --> 00:36:19.180
deadbeat or gang member or you know it's like wanna but but typically speaking no you you go

00:36:19.200 --> 00:36:25.180
through until uh until you know your 17th year and whether you get out before or after 18 just

00:36:25.380 --> 00:36:30.300
depends on when your birthday is but yeah yeah okay so that's so that's the difference i've i've

00:36:30.310 --> 00:36:35.660
just quickly checked up um and in which of course is the training center for metropolitan police and

00:36:35.660 --> 00:36:40.340
i don't know what the regional center would be for uh what would it be in sheffield yorkshire

00:36:40.570 --> 00:36:48.100
police i guess um but it's a it's a 13 week course that you would undertake there so in the scale of

00:36:48.060 --> 00:36:51.880
things it wouldn't be terribly long well if you don't consider somebody a dropout when they're at

00:36:52.020 --> 00:36:57.800
16 then right i mean there's a stigma associated with that here at 16 absolutely absolutely you've

00:36:57.900 --> 00:37:03.320
abandoned school therefore you're going to work in a circle k or convenience store i mean that's

00:37:03.640 --> 00:37:09.940
that's kind of your path at that at that stage it it's not it's not easy to get a good job without

00:37:10.240 --> 00:37:16.160
higher level qualifications but i wouldn't say it's stigmatized like that okay i think it's

00:37:16.180 --> 00:37:22.840
recognized generally that it is better to go on and study in some form. You get a huge amount more

00:37:23.060 --> 00:37:28.400
choice in terms of what you can study and that would include vocational qualifications post-16

00:37:28.660 --> 00:37:34.260
and there are changes afoot and I've been out of it for a while so I don't know at what stage

00:37:34.340 --> 00:37:39.780
these are to make education compulsory, some sort of education compulsory up to the age of 18.

00:37:40.000 --> 00:37:46.540
should include things like apprenticeship vocational training that I without without

00:37:46.660 --> 00:37:51.480
knowing a lot more about the police like what the entry requirements are whether you could do any

00:37:51.640 --> 00:37:57.760
kind of post compulsory education apprenticeship or whatever with the police I don't know

00:37:58.180 --> 00:38:04.500
but it doesn't it doesn't leap out at me that it's impossible for Yaz to be in the police at 19

00:38:04.760 --> 00:38:09.880
okay okay it it if i were a police officer i might go that's completely unrealistic because

00:38:09.940 --> 00:38:15.120
i would know right it feels but you know i i see young police out there from time to time but

00:38:15.460 --> 00:38:19.520
i don't know what they say when the policemen are getting younger you're getting older yes

00:38:21.160 --> 00:38:25.560
exactly so i can't say for sure when looking at that but most of the police i ever dealt with

00:38:25.780 --> 00:38:33.040
were retired so in their second careers so they're all grizzled old veterans um okay well

00:38:33.060 --> 00:38:35.440
the College of Policing, this is really interesting

00:38:35.700 --> 00:38:37.120
it's nothing to do with Doctor Who

00:38:37.280 --> 00:38:37.460
but

00:38:38.960 --> 00:38:41.020
just while we're educating listeners

00:38:41.240 --> 00:38:42.580
on the British

00:38:43.220 --> 00:38:44.820
entry into the constabulary

00:38:45.500 --> 00:38:47.020
yes you can do an apprenticeship

00:38:48.480 --> 00:38:49.180
a three

00:38:49.320 --> 00:38:49.940
year apprenticeship

00:38:50.660 --> 00:38:51.640
16, 17 and 18

00:38:52.380 --> 00:38:55.060
I guess so, 19, so she could just be out of

00:38:55.060 --> 00:38:55.800
the apprenticeship

00:38:57.280 --> 00:38:59.180
well that's good, at least they train

00:38:59.180 --> 00:38:59.320
them

00:39:00.260 --> 00:39:03.020
but it does seem to be the norm otherwise

00:39:03.040 --> 00:39:07.020
have to have a degree so i didn't realize that see i think you have to fail tests to get into

00:39:07.020 --> 00:39:13.220
the police here i say that i say that jokingly but i'm not they they don't it's one of those

00:39:13.460 --> 00:39:17.840
jobs where they don't want you to be too bright because you'll quit it's like postal worker and

00:39:17.860 --> 00:39:21.580
stuff they have a there's there's like a there's like the bell curve they don't want you to too

00:39:21.700 --> 00:39:26.840
far on either end of the bell curve or you uh it's not gonna be yeah i know what you mean but

00:39:27.180 --> 00:39:33.000
i i mean if if uh if you're required to have a degree for entry into the police now that is it

00:39:33.020 --> 00:39:41.740
change because if you think about um well kind of 1980s portrayal of the police and uh by the beck

00:39:41.900 --> 00:39:48.360
affair is one that springs to mind there is a character in that who is a a sergeant who has a

00:39:48.460 --> 00:39:54.440
degree and and he gets a lot of stick over the fact that he is a graduate whereas that wouldn't

00:39:54.540 --> 00:39:59.960
make sense if it were the norm school of hard knocks that's a real police school indeed indeed

00:40:01.940 --> 00:40:07.140
oh okay well i guess we should dress this back yes we probably ought to talk about doctor who

00:40:07.220 --> 00:40:13.840
really shouldn't we yeah i suppose um so i you know go ahead i was just going to say could we

00:40:13.840 --> 00:40:21.040
talk about the theology because the the whole alternative norway has been has been uh knocking

00:40:21.300 --> 00:40:27.359
around in my head because i can't help but thinking there are distinct theological overtones

00:40:27.380 --> 00:40:30.620
that could be interpreted in a number of different ways with it.

00:40:31.280 --> 00:40:31.420
Okay.

00:40:31.820 --> 00:40:32.640
I hadn't thought of it.

00:40:33.220 --> 00:40:35.580
It's kind of like Eric's in heaven, though, isn't it?

00:40:35.820 --> 00:40:37.620
Well, I think there's a...

00:40:38.580 --> 00:40:39.060
Yeah, all right.

00:40:39.480 --> 00:40:46.740
I mean, my impression was that Eric thought he was in a better, brighter world,

00:40:47.800 --> 00:40:49.820
and certainly that would be...

00:40:49.860 --> 00:40:50.760
All right, let's try this.

00:40:51.400 --> 00:40:52.480
Let's try this, then.

00:40:53.320 --> 00:41:03.620
Did the Solitract derive its knowledge of our universe and Trina and Grace entirely from the memories of Eric and Graham?

00:41:04.000 --> 00:41:05.060
We don't know that.

00:41:05.560 --> 00:41:05.640
Yeah.

00:41:05.740 --> 00:41:09.580
How did the Solitract create these people that were so accurate?

00:41:09.640 --> 00:41:11.540
And did they really believe that they were the people?

00:41:11.920 --> 00:41:14.300
Or were they just doing a remarkably good act?

00:41:14.620 --> 00:41:15.980
No, they really believed it.

00:41:15.980 --> 00:41:16.820
They really believed it.

00:41:17.020 --> 00:41:27.740
Again, I thought that was particularly well done because often with these things, it's almost like you're not actually sure that anyone knows what they're supposed
to be doing.

00:41:27.840 --> 00:41:37.600
Whereas in this case, it was made absolutely, I thought it was made absolutely crystal clear that they were completely convinced about what they were.

00:41:37.980 --> 00:41:43.120
And in particular, you get that from the surprise they show when they throw someone through the portal.

00:41:43.820 --> 00:41:45.300
And yet they throw someone through the portal.

00:41:45.540 --> 00:41:50.320
Yeah, I, and they do say the line, maybe they don't even realize.

00:41:50.810 --> 00:41:53.260
I mean, the doctor does put that out there.

00:41:53.870 --> 00:42:00.900
But I kind of felt towards the end that they were, I don't know, more than just dawning on them.

00:42:01.260 --> 00:42:10.680
That the solo track was beginning to alter their personality to be more it than, but again, it comes down to how could Grace,

00:42:10.780 --> 00:42:13.060
if Grace is such a perfect reproduction,

00:42:13.740 --> 00:42:15.660
not want to rescue Ryan?

00:42:16.440 --> 00:42:17.620
Why not just let Ryan in?

00:42:17.940 --> 00:42:22.880
Because I think there is an influence there.

00:42:23.200 --> 00:42:23.880
There is an influence.

00:42:24.880 --> 00:42:25.680
I mean, it's not...

00:42:25.800 --> 00:42:27.640
But wouldn't the Solitrak want more people too?

00:42:28.160 --> 00:42:30.600
I mean, notwithstanding the collapsing of the universes,

00:42:30.880 --> 00:42:34.780
but I mean, it seemed a little ignorant on that point.

00:42:35.220 --> 00:42:37.040
I'm not sure that it...

00:42:37.060 --> 00:42:41.420
If my reading of what happened with Hannah was right,

00:42:41.620 --> 00:42:43.220
Ryan wouldn't have been convinced by Grace.

00:42:43.420 --> 00:42:45.660
It would have been interesting to see, and yet we didn't get it.

00:42:45.900 --> 00:42:49.880
No, and I think there are good reasons not to have Ryan and Grace meet in this.

00:42:50.280 --> 00:42:53.380
I think overall that was the more effective way of doing it.

00:42:53.480 --> 00:43:00.440
I think it's clear within the story that Grace and Eric's wife...

00:43:00.440 --> 00:43:00.740
Trina.

00:43:00.900 --> 00:43:02.520
Trina, thank you.

00:43:02.860 --> 00:43:05.080
That they aren't the real Grace and Trina.

00:43:06.140 --> 00:43:12.880
So the question was arising to me, so what does this say about heaven?

00:43:13.300 --> 00:43:18.440
Is this a kind of religious perspective on heaven?

00:43:18.740 --> 00:43:22.800
And because you've obviously got the anti-zone, which is effectively a purgatory,

00:43:23.700 --> 00:43:25.300
so it all kind of fits together.

00:43:25.640 --> 00:43:32.200
And I think the answer is, well, no, because clearly the Christian view of heaven

00:43:32.740 --> 00:43:35.800
would have the real grace and the real Trina.

00:43:36.080 --> 00:43:37.260
They are in heaven.

00:43:37.740 --> 00:43:39.620
And this wasn't that.

00:43:39.940 --> 00:43:46.100
I think, in my mind, the best kind of fit for this was the atheist point of view.

00:43:46.200 --> 00:43:49.200
Though I think there is another religious reading that you could have on it,

00:43:49.320 --> 00:43:56.440
which would be the kind of beware of false gods take, i.e. it looks like heaven.

00:43:56.500 --> 00:44:02.180
It looks like you have a deity granting your most fervent desires,

00:44:02.440 --> 00:44:05.700
you know, your wish to see your wife again, etc., etc.

00:44:06.180 --> 00:44:11.420
but the danger is is there because actually what you've got what you've got here isn't a

00:44:11.740 --> 00:44:15.840
isn't a true god and isn't a true heaven and therefore you know worshipping false idols very

00:44:16.020 --> 00:44:23.680
bad etc okay um if if the if the doctor and the gang hadn't come along hannah would have died

00:44:23.860 --> 00:44:29.040
eventually and if not from lack of food she'd have gone out into the woods anyway and a bear

00:44:29.160 --> 00:44:33.280
would have mauled her because there's apparently bears um we don't know eric would have stayed i

00:44:33.260 --> 00:44:34.100
We know there are bears.

00:44:34.210 --> 00:44:35.060
We don't know she would have died.

00:44:35.320 --> 00:44:37.160
I think we have a pretty good chance.

00:44:37.300 --> 00:44:38.400
It's supposed to be winter, too.

00:44:38.730 --> 00:44:42.160
It didn't seem that wintry for Norway, but they did say it was Norway.

00:44:42.490 --> 00:44:42.920
It was winter.

00:44:44.420 --> 00:44:46.200
If it was winter, why was it light?

00:44:46.980 --> 00:44:47.340
Well.

00:44:48.420 --> 00:44:49.840
We don't know how far north it was, though.

00:44:50.010 --> 00:44:50.460
We don't know.

00:44:50.860 --> 00:44:56.500
Well, up the crinkly bits up towards the north, she did say that at one point after tasting the soil.

00:44:57.200 --> 00:44:58.120
It should have been pretty dark.

00:44:58.350 --> 00:45:03.020
It should have been dark, and I think it probably should have been a lot whiter, icier.

00:45:03.360 --> 00:45:10.680
perhaps not perhaps perhaps not but um i think we have a good chance for hannah dying of exposure

00:45:11.120 --> 00:45:16.100
if she tried to go for help but even if she didn't right let's let's just ignore it nothing

00:45:16.100 --> 00:45:20.360
ever happened hannah maybe the police finally come along and find her and she's taken off to

00:45:20.360 --> 00:45:25.060
a foster home her dad never comes back anything bad happen to dad i don't think so well right

00:45:25.180 --> 00:45:30.540
apart from both the universe he's in and the universe he's left behind being destroyed well

00:45:30.560 --> 00:45:37.100
Oh, but did that happen as a consequence of all of them ending up there and tipping the balance?

00:45:37.600 --> 00:45:41.000
Because it seemed, as she said, it seemed to be manageable at first with one person.

00:45:41.360 --> 00:45:44.020
And then when the rest of them came, then everything started to fall apart.

00:45:44.340 --> 00:45:47.820
I mean, it's not, I mean, the Solitrack's obviously not trying to destroy Eric,

00:45:48.200 --> 00:45:50.380
and the Solitrack's obviously not trying to destroy itself.

00:45:51.060 --> 00:45:54.380
No, but then on the other hand, the Solitrack did bring all the others there.

00:45:54.820 --> 00:45:57.360
So if it hadn't brought them, it would have brought someone else.

00:45:57.860 --> 00:45:59.000
I suppose, possibly.

00:45:59.560 --> 00:46:07.060
But I guess getting to your point of it being a false god and you're in graven peril, I don't see that Eric was.

00:46:07.370 --> 00:46:12.820
I mean, not from the standpoint of the great deceiver has brought you here.

00:46:13.150 --> 00:46:15.120
It was not done maliciously.

00:46:15.920 --> 00:46:17.680
It was not done to do evil.

00:46:17.680 --> 00:46:18.140
Well, I don't...

00:46:18.160 --> 00:46:19.380
It was done...

00:46:19.500 --> 00:46:19.980
Well, hang on a minute.

00:46:20.560 --> 00:46:28.540
Just get yourself in the position of someone who actually believes in heaven and hell and a deity.

00:46:29.300 --> 00:46:29.360
Okay.

00:46:29.440 --> 00:46:33.820
He would have done Eric a lot of bad if he'd gone in this place and abandoned his daughter

00:46:34.120 --> 00:46:37.700
and she'd died, been eaten by a bear or taken away by the police.

00:46:38.060 --> 00:46:41.020
And he'd lived out his days in this unreal universe

00:46:41.600 --> 00:46:44.740
because his soul wouldn't have gone to heaven after that, would it?

00:46:45.040 --> 00:46:45.580
Well, I don't know.

00:46:45.980 --> 00:46:47.320
When he died there, maybe it would.

00:46:47.620 --> 00:46:50.280
Well, what about his sins?

00:46:51.000 --> 00:46:54.720
I may not be, from a theological perspective,

00:46:54.820 --> 00:46:58.120
I may not be the best person to argue the religious point of view on this.

00:46:58.620 --> 00:46:59.440
Nor am I.

00:46:59.930 --> 00:47:09.300
But I'm kind of thinking it's not going to be great for his immortal soul if he stays there, even if he physically survives it.

00:47:09.300 --> 00:47:16.240
Which I'm not convinced that he would, because I think the Solid Tract is going to carry on trying to lure other people in.

00:47:16.800 --> 00:47:17.620
It's a possibility.

00:47:18.280 --> 00:47:19.200
It's a possibility.

00:47:19.550 --> 00:47:21.360
I just wasn't.

00:47:21.640 --> 00:47:21.920
I don't know.

00:47:22.340 --> 00:47:26.780
I didn't feel that the Solid Tract was truly an evil entity.

00:47:26.910 --> 00:47:28.300
It was a piteous envy.

00:47:28.340 --> 00:47:36.040
it yes well yes it was and okay but here okay so here is my my atheist take on where what the

00:47:36.300 --> 00:47:45.620
solitract is which is in in the description the doctor describes the solitract as being what pre

00:47:45.880 --> 00:47:51.640
pre-time pre-everything all the laws and nuts and bolts of the universe were there like matter

00:47:51.840 --> 00:47:58.300
maths and so on but they couldn't fit together properly so the solitract once once upon a time

00:47:58.320 --> 00:48:04.000
with everything else but they couldn't fit together properly because the solid tract was there

00:48:04.280 --> 00:48:10.500
our our reality cannot work this is a direct quote from the doctor our reality cannot work

00:48:10.600 --> 00:48:18.720
work with solid tract energy present now if we look at the way in which religion has

00:48:19.600 --> 00:48:27.380
i i think it's probably fairly uncontroversial to say religion has waned over time from sort of i

00:48:27.360 --> 00:48:34.580
guess well a more fervored time yes let's let's say over the past two to three hundred years

00:48:34.920 --> 00:48:42.260
that's the kind of time span i have in mind um and in particular how some of our scientific

00:48:42.580 --> 00:48:47.600
endeavors and our growing body of scientific knowledge has caused people to struggle with

00:48:47.800 --> 00:48:53.720
a conflict between faith and scientific understanding you know likes of you were so

00:48:53.480 --> 00:48:58.680
kind you were so kind there you used faith and scientific understanding instead of faith and

00:49:00.690 --> 00:49:06.180
reality it's the doctor who's a doctor who says our reality cannot work but actually what i think

00:49:06.580 --> 00:49:12.020
she means is is our understanding of if if i've if i've got this metaphor right our understanding

00:49:12.270 --> 00:49:18.840
of reality cannot work our you know we we can't we can't operate with the level of scientific

00:49:18.860 --> 00:49:26.760
knowledge we've got and maintain this the kind of solid tract slash faith energy and and so it's

00:49:26.840 --> 00:49:35.760
almost like what you get is this is this ejection of religion from our rational post-scientific

00:49:36.440 --> 00:49:43.060
world i mean gross oversimplification here but it had echoes for me of the of the ideas of of both

00:49:43.620 --> 00:49:49.280
both Douglas Adams and Neil Gaiman in The Long Dark Tea Time of the Soul and American Gods,

00:49:49.740 --> 00:49:55.580
where they both used the conjecture that the gods were once real because men needed them

00:49:55.710 --> 00:50:01.600
to be real. And then they carried on being real long after men had ceased to need them to be real.

00:50:01.940 --> 00:50:08.360
But they're now in various ways kind of vagrants or outcasts or whatever. And here you have

00:50:08.600 --> 00:50:14.160
religion as an energy i'm i'm suggesting or religion as an idea being kind of ejected from

00:50:14.600 --> 00:50:23.200
the universe that we have now and so so what so what they've stepped into is is like this almost

00:50:23.460 --> 00:50:30.880
entirely separate reality with religion and its own the universe itself being a deity and it and

00:50:30.880 --> 00:50:37.460
it being a heaven with where people have have gone uh have gone when they died because i can't i can't

00:50:37.460 --> 00:50:43.360
get away from some of the parallels of this and and i i'm trying to make sense of what this what

00:50:43.360 --> 00:50:49.880
this is about when the doctor is talking about the most basic ideas of our universe just get

00:50:50.140 --> 00:50:56.080
ruined with the solid tract energy you know i just thought that was bad writing um i think it's i

00:50:56.080 --> 00:51:02.180
just thought it was i thought it was nonsensical drivel and and it doesn't help that it's you know

00:51:02.120 --> 00:51:05.800
my nine grandmothers and the fifth one thinks the second is a...

00:51:05.980 --> 00:51:06.480
Seventh.

00:51:06.640 --> 00:51:09.120
Seventh thinks the second is a Zygon.

00:51:09.180 --> 00:51:10.060
Seventh thinks the second one is a Zygon agent.

00:51:10.440 --> 00:51:12.300
The second was a Zygon agent.

00:51:12.620 --> 00:51:13.160
But anyway...

00:51:13.400 --> 00:51:14.940
Granny, too, is the Zygon.

00:51:15.460 --> 00:51:16.940
And unfortunately, a lot of the...

00:51:16.940 --> 00:51:18.000
Granny is the Solid Tract expert.

00:51:18.380 --> 00:51:22.240
A lot of the babbling that comes out of the doctor's mouth

00:51:22.780 --> 00:51:24.940
in this and many other episodes,

00:51:25.260 --> 00:51:26.240
parts I don't like,

00:51:26.600 --> 00:51:28.580
woolly rebellion and...

00:51:29.280 --> 00:51:31.580
The doctor's just making this stuff up.

00:51:31.920 --> 00:51:32.700
Of course she is.

00:51:32.940 --> 00:51:35.580
And so she's just making this up too.

00:51:36.080 --> 00:51:38.000
And so you don't know what this, you know,

00:51:38.060 --> 00:51:40.620
I don't feel like the doctor is imparting wisdom here.

00:51:40.620 --> 00:51:43.620
I think the doctor is just literally babbling to,

00:51:44.120 --> 00:51:45.220
you just wouldn't.

00:51:45.460 --> 00:51:47.620
But what's interesting is what she's babbling,

00:51:47.980 --> 00:51:49.640
wherever it's coming from.

00:51:49.930 --> 00:51:52.340
And I think the Granny Seven stuff is nonsense.

00:51:52.740 --> 00:51:54.260
Yes, she's made that up.

00:51:54.410 --> 00:51:55.600
But what is she talking about?

00:51:56.080 --> 00:51:59.020
When, you know, when she's saying our universe cannot work

00:51:59.180 --> 00:52:01.560
with solid tracked energy in it, what's she thinking about?

00:52:01.860 --> 00:52:05.100
I don't know because I don't see how she made the leap.

00:52:05.500 --> 00:52:10.200
That's another problem I had with this episode is that she just says,

00:52:10.200 --> 00:52:11.740
well, this universe must be dangerous.

00:52:12.060 --> 00:52:13.040
Oh, got it.

00:52:13.220 --> 00:52:15.260
It's this nursery rhyme, babble, babble, babble.

00:52:15.260 --> 00:52:19.900
It's like that doesn't make any sense to make that leap.

00:52:20.380 --> 00:52:22.340
And it doesn't work.

00:52:22.800 --> 00:52:28.960
But to me, but to set that aside, not only do I don't know it was intentional,

00:52:29.160 --> 00:52:33.680
but I can see what the point that you're trying to make about ejecting this,

00:52:34.900 --> 00:52:39.120
or if it's not ejecting it, it's keeping it a fairy tale.

00:52:39.410 --> 00:52:43.260
If you think it's reality, then our universe doesn't make sense, which is true.

00:52:43.740 --> 00:52:44.560
Yeah, so it has to be separate.

00:52:44.560 --> 00:52:47.840
You're keeping it a fairy tale, which is interesting that it ends with a frog in a chair,

00:52:48.200 --> 00:52:49.280
a talking frog in a chair.

00:52:49.620 --> 00:52:52.460
What? I mean, it's not the doctor's face to frog, is it?

00:52:52.760 --> 00:52:53.160
Talking frog?

00:52:53.700 --> 00:52:54.000
Is it?

00:52:54.360 --> 00:52:55.520
What about four to doomsday?

00:52:56.300 --> 00:53:01.000
All right, we'll pretend like that anybody would have thought that was a frog

00:53:01.290 --> 00:53:02.820
if they hadn't called him a frog.

00:53:04.220 --> 00:53:04.440
Okay?

00:53:04.950 --> 00:53:05.780
I mean, eh.

00:53:06.680 --> 00:53:06.880
Right?

00:53:07.260 --> 00:53:09.780
The makeup did not really convey Frog King.

00:53:10.180 --> 00:53:11.600
But it's very fairytale.

00:53:11.740 --> 00:53:14.420
I'm not sure this frog was particularly convincing either.

00:53:14.840 --> 00:53:15.580
No, it wasn't.

00:53:15.580 --> 00:53:16.000
It was terrible.

00:53:16.540 --> 00:53:18.600
Was it a puppet or was that a CGI frog?

00:53:19.340 --> 00:53:25.380
I think it was a CGI frog, but obviously a CGI puppet frog.

00:53:26.360 --> 00:53:32.380
well yes I mean it's it's how well rigged is it and and how much time do you have to

00:53:32.920 --> 00:53:38.780
animate it realistically but I kind of I really didn't care about that because I loved the image

00:53:38.780 --> 00:53:44.540
of the frog sitting on this beautiful kitchen chair and having this chat with the doctor so

00:53:44.740 --> 00:53:49.660
again it's another it's another area where I felt you know that the ideas in the episode

00:53:49.680 --> 00:53:54.600
exceeded the capabilities or the budget to be able to realize them.

00:53:54.610 --> 00:53:57.740
And yet still, it was worth it because the ideas were so great.

00:53:59.480 --> 00:54:02.960
But I can see this as a rejection of fantasy,

00:54:03.920 --> 00:54:07.760
which you could argue is the religious point of view is a fantasy.

00:54:08.260 --> 00:54:12.740
Therefore, again, taking that from a kind of one-sided point of view.

00:54:12.960 --> 00:54:15.580
But I don't know if that was intended, though.

00:54:15.900 --> 00:54:17.220
I'm not sure I'm convinced.

00:54:17.720 --> 00:54:21.260
You know, there were times when I would tell that to my English teachers in high school,

00:54:21.690 --> 00:54:26.060
where they would be telling us what they meant, what the author really meant by this passage in a book.

00:54:26.070 --> 00:54:28.120
And I'm not always convinced they were right.

00:54:28.210 --> 00:54:29.920
And I'm not, I can see it.

00:54:30.130 --> 00:54:31.380
I can see it from the explanation.

00:54:31.510 --> 00:54:32.480
You say, well, all right, fine.

00:54:32.490 --> 00:54:33.480
I can see that interpretation.

00:54:33.880 --> 00:54:36.100
I'm not sure that's what the writer was thinking at the time.

00:54:36.500 --> 00:54:38.240
But it could be because the rest of it's...

00:54:38.240 --> 00:54:41.160
I don't particularly care whether it's what the writer was thinking, whether it's conscious or unconscious.

00:54:42.240 --> 00:54:47.820
What I'm interested in is what the implications are.

00:54:48.920 --> 00:54:53.160
Isn't a metaphor, though, something that is a communicated thing?

00:54:53.180 --> 00:54:57.000
So if you make it up on your own out of something somebody else said, it's not.

00:54:57.280 --> 00:55:00.880
It's just sort of your conjecture thing.

00:55:01.740 --> 00:55:08.300
It's not a thing communicated from author to viewer if it's not intentional.

00:55:08.920 --> 00:55:14.960
Well, but I'm not sure art is about communicating something from the artist to the viewer.

00:55:15.320 --> 00:55:18.500
I think that it is about communicating.

00:55:19.040 --> 00:55:21.080
And so I suppose that is part of it.

00:55:21.180 --> 00:55:26.760
But a lot of it is about the relationship between the work itself and the person viewing the work.

00:55:27.320 --> 00:55:28.720
It's about that interaction.

00:55:29.220 --> 00:55:34.680
Because without that, without the viewer working to interpret it, it can't have any meaning at all.

00:55:35.300 --> 00:55:36.880
That's the fall on fertile soil.

00:55:37.960 --> 00:55:38.320
All right.

00:55:39.600 --> 00:55:42.540
let me run over a couple things

00:55:43.200 --> 00:55:44.920
I'll try to miss them

00:55:45.320 --> 00:55:47.000
I'm really glad you had something

00:55:47.340 --> 00:55:49.020
to say about the episode because I didn't

00:55:49.080 --> 00:55:50.920
want to have to go through this list entirely

00:55:51.500 --> 00:55:53.000
and just pick on little things

00:55:53.160 --> 00:55:54.720
that bugged me in the episode

00:55:55.060 --> 00:55:57.180
go ahead you're not going to say that to me

00:55:57.500 --> 00:55:58.280
there's a few

00:55:58.740 --> 00:56:00.360
that I want to

00:56:01.200 --> 00:56:01.680
say

00:56:03.020 --> 00:56:04.640
and it's not just this Doctor

00:56:04.880 --> 00:56:06.080
it's been a tendency

00:56:06.700 --> 00:56:08.720
throughout the remake, especially.

00:56:09.240 --> 00:56:10.960
These things like the Woolly Rebellion.

00:56:11.820 --> 00:56:13.720
I just don't like that.

00:56:13.880 --> 00:56:15.960
I don't like the doctor eats soil

00:56:16.200 --> 00:56:17.740
and tells you that there's a gift shop

00:56:18.100 --> 00:56:20.420
with an alpaca X number of miles away.

00:56:20.880 --> 00:56:21.880
It's very David Tennant.

00:56:22.240 --> 00:56:23.100
Yes, it is.

00:56:23.440 --> 00:56:25.080
And I didn't like that about David Tennant.

00:56:25.500 --> 00:56:28.080
And that was, and you know, where are we?

00:56:28.160 --> 00:56:28.980
I don't know where we are,

00:56:29.060 --> 00:56:30.440
but I can hold up the sonic screwdriver

00:56:30.660 --> 00:56:31.420
and tell you it's 2018,

00:56:31.780 --> 00:56:32.940
but I can't tell you where we are.

00:56:33.500 --> 00:56:34.640
It's called a tubular from now on.

00:56:34.640 --> 00:56:35.560
The tubular from now on.

00:56:35.820 --> 00:56:41.160
Um, you know, those, those sorts of things, just, they don't amuse me.

00:56:42.079 --> 00:56:43.980
And so it's not humor.

00:56:44.220 --> 00:56:45.980
It's, I don't know.

00:56:46.240 --> 00:56:46.920
So I put that out there.

00:56:47.200 --> 00:56:47.620
All right.

00:56:47.700 --> 00:56:48.040
Let's see.

00:56:48.400 --> 00:56:49.520
Cheese and pickle sarni.

00:56:50.020 --> 00:56:53.780
Sounds like a disgusting sandwich I've ever heard of in my life, but okay.

00:56:54.220 --> 00:56:54.320
What?

00:56:54.960 --> 00:56:55.640
Cheese and pickles.

00:56:56.300 --> 00:56:56.440
Really?

00:56:56.960 --> 00:56:57.600
It's very British.

00:56:57.810 --> 00:56:58.580
Cheese and pickle sandwiches.

00:56:59.080 --> 00:56:59.420
No.

00:57:00.000 --> 00:57:00.300
Wow.

00:57:00.420 --> 00:57:01.360
It's very British sounding.

00:57:01.540 --> 00:57:02.760
Add that to the fish and chips.

00:57:02.820 --> 00:57:03.520
And watercress.

00:57:03.580 --> 00:57:04.120
Crisps.

00:57:04.580 --> 00:57:04.700
Yeah.

00:57:05.100 --> 00:57:06.260
Add watercress to that.

00:57:06.330 --> 00:57:08.320
It's one of those things you just don't hear on a sandwich.

00:57:09.480 --> 00:57:10.740
You don't have watercress?

00:57:11.020 --> 00:57:12.020
I think we have it.

00:57:12.520 --> 00:57:15.420
You wouldn't see a watercress sandwich or anything like that.

00:57:16.920 --> 00:57:18.700
Graham didn't have a watercress sandwich, did he?

00:57:19.000 --> 00:57:19.360
No, he didn't.

00:57:19.440 --> 00:57:22.460
No, watercress is absolutely delicious.

00:57:22.610 --> 00:57:30.080
It's very kind of sort of smallish, peppery leaves that I frequently add to sandwiches.

00:57:30.840 --> 00:57:32.100
So lettuce, leaves.

00:57:32.740 --> 00:57:33.180
No, no, no.

00:57:33.300 --> 00:57:34.620
It's nothing like lettuce.

00:57:34.960 --> 00:57:40.180
It grows in usually flowing water, though I've managed to grow it in still water.

00:57:41.000 --> 00:57:47.060
With kind of long stalks and little leaves, it looks more like a kind of herb than a lettuce.

00:57:47.440 --> 00:57:50.980
And if you don't get it in time, it'll produce little white flowers.

00:57:51.260 --> 00:57:52.780
But lettuce isn't peppery.

00:57:53.880 --> 00:57:56.920
And watercress, you know, it has quite a spicy flavor.

00:57:57.540 --> 00:58:00.720
It's more like rocket if you want to compare it to a kind of salad leaf.

00:58:01.800 --> 00:58:02.660
We don't have rocket either.

00:58:03.700 --> 00:58:04.620
You don't have rocket?

00:58:04.900 --> 00:58:05.480
Oh, my goodness.

00:58:05.980 --> 00:58:08.420
It took me years to find out that was a form of lettuce.

00:58:08.980 --> 00:58:10.440
And maybe we do, but we don't call it that.

00:58:10.760 --> 00:58:12.900
But here's one that is important.

00:58:13.320 --> 00:58:13.940
Well, important.

00:58:14.400 --> 00:58:16.520
The clock goes off.

00:58:16.720 --> 00:58:17.340
They get worried.

00:58:17.700 --> 00:58:19.200
Sorry, I just want to come back to the sandwich.

00:58:19.600 --> 00:58:28.220
I loved it in particular because it paid off something that I hadn't really noticed in Rosa until you and Ben discussed it.

00:58:28.580 --> 00:58:29.120
Oh, yeah.

00:58:29.500 --> 00:58:31.040
Which was about Graham getting hungry.

00:58:31.740 --> 00:58:33.480
And I just like that callback.

00:58:33.860 --> 00:58:36.300
Yeah, I was fine with it.

00:58:36.540 --> 00:58:42.200
I mean, you have a different sandwich culture over there than we do.

00:58:42.560 --> 00:58:43.980
You have a lot more sandwiches.

00:58:44.300 --> 00:58:45.080
I mean, we have sandwiches.

00:58:45.640 --> 00:58:46.060
Don't get me wrong.

00:58:46.640 --> 00:58:53.800
But I was amazed to walk into a store and just see banks of packaged sandwiches.

00:58:54.460 --> 00:58:56.420
Or just places that sell sandwiches.

00:58:56.700 --> 00:58:59.000
Pre-packaged, on-white bread sandwiches.

00:58:59.840 --> 00:59:01.140
Not all on-white bread.

00:59:01.440 --> 00:59:03.440
No, or I call it white bread.

00:59:03.540 --> 00:59:07.500
but sliced bread as opposed to, say, on baguettes or sub rolls or something like that.

00:59:08.180 --> 00:59:09.980
And that just blew me away.

00:59:10.400 --> 00:59:10.900
It really did.

00:59:11.080 --> 00:59:12.680
It's like, that's kind of cool.

00:59:13.080 --> 00:59:14.960
Although then I'd look at most of them and go, really?

00:59:15.260 --> 00:59:15.380
No.

00:59:16.140 --> 00:59:17.000
Not eating that.

00:59:17.900 --> 00:59:21.920
But, you know, it's a different attitude towards sandwiches.

00:59:22.720 --> 00:59:24.900
And it's beginning to take over here.

00:59:24.900 --> 00:59:25.040
We eat them.

00:59:25.380 --> 00:59:29.700
No, you make sandwiches and you put them in your lunchbox and you take them and that's it.

00:59:29.840 --> 00:59:30.860
Oh, homemade sandwiches.

00:59:31.220 --> 00:59:31.360
Yeah.

00:59:31.680 --> 00:59:31.740
Yeah.

00:59:31.940 --> 00:59:34.180
Well, I make my own sandwiches because they're much nicer.

00:59:34.880 --> 00:59:39.960
Over the last few years, we're beginning to see more and more packaged sandwiches in stores.

00:59:40.320 --> 00:59:44.620
You know, a little plastic thing into the sandwich because, you know, these ideas cross.

00:59:45.020 --> 00:59:47.600
But, you know, nothing compared to a hat over there.

00:59:47.660 --> 00:59:49.100
Graham's sandwich looked homemade, though.

00:59:49.460 --> 00:59:53.800
It could have been, but there's a certain amount of how long has that been in his, you know,

00:59:53.940 --> 00:59:56.500
how long will you keep a sandwich before it's too long?

00:59:56.840 --> 00:59:58.140
And that was my thought.

00:59:58.460 --> 00:59:59.060
I liked it.

00:59:59.120 --> 01:00:00.720
I appreciate the fact that he had it.

01:00:01.020 --> 01:00:09.160
I would think, I would be thinking carrying along some beef jerky or some nuts or something that will not go bad with time.

01:00:09.660 --> 01:00:11.740
And maybe cheese and pickle never goes bad.

01:00:12.040 --> 01:00:13.240
Come to think of it, there you go.

01:00:13.540 --> 01:00:15.020
Well, the bread's going to go stale.

01:00:15.180 --> 01:00:15.320
Yeah.

01:00:15.530 --> 01:00:19.840
And it would be difficult to keep track of because when you're in a TARDIS, you don't actually know how much time has passed.

01:00:20.140 --> 01:00:20.240
Yeah.

01:00:20.640 --> 01:00:21.860
So, yeah.

01:00:22.300 --> 01:00:23.240
So I was fine with the sandwich.

01:00:23.410 --> 01:00:25.800
I just, I just, cheese and pickle was like, wow, okay.

01:00:26.220 --> 01:00:27.100
That's, that's British.

01:00:27.620 --> 01:00:28.280
That is British.

01:00:29.040 --> 01:00:31.900
Well, I can't deny it is British.

01:00:31.900 --> 01:00:32.920
Do they slice the pickles?

01:00:33.500 --> 01:00:34.700
How are pickles sliced?

01:00:34.720 --> 01:00:35.740
No, it comes out of a jar.

01:00:36.140 --> 01:00:37.320
Okay, so it's a whole pickle.

01:00:37.820 --> 01:00:38.600
No, no, no, no.

01:00:38.780 --> 01:00:43.940
Pickle is like, it's bits of chopped up whatever they pickled

01:00:44.780 --> 01:00:48.040
in a kind of brown chutney type thing.

01:00:48.280 --> 01:00:49.100
Oh, it's like a relish.

01:00:49.720 --> 01:00:50.480
Bramston pickle.

01:00:51.300 --> 01:00:53.500
That's what, Google your Bramston pickle

01:00:53.580 --> 01:00:56.180
and you see some photos of the kind of stuff

01:00:56.420 --> 01:00:57.960
we're putting in our cheese sandwiches.

01:00:58.480 --> 01:01:05.900
But, you know, little small cubes of whatever it is in, yes, in a brown relish, if that's the correct American term for it.

01:01:06.140 --> 01:01:08.600
Gosh, you can actually buy it not far from here.

01:01:09.000 --> 01:01:09.600
Pickled chutney.

01:01:10.000 --> 01:01:10.460
All right.

01:01:12.840 --> 01:01:15.840
It's not like the doctor to run when they ran into the house.

01:01:16.260 --> 01:01:17.920
I was very surprised by that.

01:01:18.220 --> 01:01:19.440
Did you hear a creature in the woods?

01:01:19.860 --> 01:01:22.220
They're all balding, barricading themselves into the house.

01:01:22.640 --> 01:01:27.260
I can't picture the doctor now standing on the front door waiting for it to arrive to see if she could talk with it.

01:01:28.800 --> 01:01:29.260
with a bear.

01:01:29.650 --> 01:01:32.820
Well, no, whatever that screaming monster thing was

01:01:33.180 --> 01:01:34.500
that supposedly was out there.

01:01:34.840 --> 01:01:35.000
Yes.

01:01:35.200 --> 01:01:35.580
That took dad.

01:01:35.840 --> 01:01:39.360
That really seemed like out of character to me.

01:01:39.640 --> 01:01:42.020
I certainly could picture her having a conversation

01:01:42.200 --> 01:01:42.760
with whoever it is.

01:01:42.980 --> 01:01:44.680
At the very least, you stand by the door

01:01:44.810 --> 01:01:45.680
until it comes up.

01:01:45.730 --> 01:01:47.940
And then if it turns out it's a big ravenous

01:01:48.080 --> 01:01:50.500
bug bladder beast, you hide.

01:01:50.840 --> 01:01:53.880
Or if it turns out to be an alien creature

01:01:54.040 --> 01:01:57.520
to harm the doctor and I invoke the shadow

01:01:57.540 --> 01:02:04.120
and what's your name and or whatever but i it i mean it's what i do but it's not what i expect

01:02:04.150 --> 01:02:12.800
the doctor to do so um i made a mention of that and here's the other big one um the anti-zone

01:02:13.300 --> 01:02:19.940
a thing that forms up between the two universes to protect time and space why does it form up

01:02:19.940 --> 01:02:26.740
with sentient life forms in it good question that that part that part just is like why is this i

01:02:26.760 --> 01:02:36.360
I mean, I get the idea of, you know, a scab or something forming up in the universe to prevent damage or to protect a wound or something of that nature.

01:02:36.700 --> 01:02:41.840
But this seems like there's this fully realized world that you have ribbons.

01:02:41.840 --> 01:02:43.360
It might be very fast evolution.

01:02:43.780 --> 01:02:44.420
Could be.

01:02:44.680 --> 01:02:48.280
Where did the Reapers come from or anything else that lives in the vortex?

01:02:48.920 --> 01:02:51.840
Well, but they live in the vortex.

01:02:52.660 --> 01:02:54.820
The anti-zone sounded like it formed.

01:02:55.580 --> 01:03:01.580
But would it make sense to measure time in that way?

01:03:01.940 --> 01:03:02.340
I don't know.

01:03:02.660 --> 01:03:04.460
It just, I mean, obviously they had to have it there.

01:03:04.620 --> 01:03:09.480
Time in the anti-zone, if it started to form, let's say, four days ago,

01:03:09.700 --> 01:03:12.640
but it's outside any universe, would those four days,

01:03:13.160 --> 01:03:16.040
which are four days from the perspective of Norway,

01:03:16.820 --> 01:03:19.160
actually be four days in the anti-zone itself?

01:03:19.960 --> 01:03:20.320
I don't know.

01:03:20.600 --> 01:03:21.620
I don't know.

01:03:21.700 --> 01:03:24.600
I'm asking the question, but it did seem to me

01:03:26.160 --> 01:03:33.060
kind of like it was an ongoing thing that had been and and recognize that a uh ribbons knows

01:03:33.180 --> 01:03:40.380
how to talk so there must be other people to talk to um and barter and they got the flesh

01:03:40.580 --> 01:03:44.120
moths which it seems like they would have set about their time figuring out a way to defeat

01:03:44.360 --> 01:03:49.100
flesh moths without um just running from them isn't that the first thing you do in civilization

01:03:49.120 --> 01:03:52.940
is to find ways to protect yourselves from the dangers around you.

01:03:52.960 --> 01:03:53.380
Flesh Moths.

01:03:53.780 --> 01:03:53.880
Yeah.

01:03:54.260 --> 01:03:55.500
In this case, it'd be Flesh Moths.

01:03:56.420 --> 01:03:56.800
I don't know.

01:03:57.040 --> 01:04:05.560
It just, you know, it really did feel like that piece was there to flesh out a short episode.

01:04:06.020 --> 01:04:06.700
Flesh Moths out.

01:04:06.960 --> 01:04:07.300
Yes.

01:04:08.340 --> 01:04:08.740
Let's see.

01:04:09.500 --> 01:04:10.960
And, oh yeah, Solitract.

01:04:11.200 --> 01:04:12.060
Solitary Track?

01:04:12.360 --> 01:04:13.760
I think that's where that name comes from?

01:04:14.020 --> 01:04:14.520
It would be.

01:04:14.800 --> 01:04:15.860
Has to be on its own.

01:04:16.200 --> 01:04:16.520
I don't know.

01:04:16.600 --> 01:04:18.120
It was such a weird name.

01:04:18.460 --> 01:04:19.320
And she just kept saying it.

01:04:19.440 --> 01:04:19.880
Solitrak.

01:04:20.000 --> 01:04:22.040
I was like, you know, I don't know.

01:04:22.420 --> 01:04:24.400
It sounds too much like it's English.

01:04:25.020 --> 01:04:26.340
Like it's made up of English words.

01:04:26.780 --> 01:04:29.180
Than, say, if you just call Daleks or something.

01:04:29.640 --> 01:04:30.160
That makes sense?

01:04:30.560 --> 01:04:31.780
Daleks doesn't sound like anything.

01:04:31.840 --> 01:04:32.880
It sounds like a made up word.

01:04:33.000 --> 01:04:35.080
Cybermen sounds like two words you stuck together.

01:04:35.740 --> 01:04:37.860
Solitrak sounds like the latter.

01:04:39.220 --> 01:04:39.420
But.

01:04:41.180 --> 01:04:42.940
And let's see.

01:04:43.660 --> 01:04:44.660
And one other thing.

01:04:44.960 --> 01:04:45.340
Oh, yes.

01:04:45.500 --> 01:04:45.980
At the end.

01:04:46.260 --> 01:04:48.040
The doctor agrees to stay.

01:04:48.340 --> 01:04:51.360
I'm presuming giving up everything to save the universe.

01:04:51.960 --> 01:04:53.680
I can accept that.

01:04:53.920 --> 01:04:56.860
I don't like the fact that we're back to saving the universe.

01:04:57.500 --> 01:04:59.500
But, okay, from destruction.

01:04:59.880 --> 01:05:01.800
I like the smaller stories.

01:05:02.260 --> 01:05:03.900
Yeah, although this didn't feel...

01:05:03.900 --> 01:05:05.320
It didn't really feel like it was that...

01:05:05.440 --> 01:05:08.120
It didn't really feel like the universe was in danger, frankly.

01:05:08.580 --> 01:05:13.400
So, when she is talking to the frog, and she says,

01:05:13.620 --> 01:05:17.600
You are the maddest, most beautiful thing I've ever experienced.

01:05:17.960 --> 01:05:18.560
Is that a lie?

01:05:18.810 --> 01:05:19.380
I don't know.

01:05:20.480 --> 01:05:22.100
Because it sure doesn't seem like it.

01:05:22.440 --> 01:05:24.360
And I couldn't quite...

01:05:24.360 --> 01:05:25.380
I mean, she's just buttering it up.

01:05:25.660 --> 01:05:27.280
I really don't know.

01:05:27.490 --> 01:05:28.380
And I've made a friend.

01:05:28.760 --> 01:05:28.880
Really?

01:05:29.440 --> 01:05:30.160
This is your friend?

01:05:30.570 --> 01:05:31.660
Your friend was kind of awful.

01:05:33.540 --> 01:05:38.040
I guess it depends what we think the solid tract is.

01:05:38.310 --> 01:05:42.380
If it is this idea of religious fantasy or whatever,

01:05:43.440 --> 01:05:47.920
then I guess that's about how appealing it is

01:05:47.940 --> 01:05:50.480
how attractive an idea it is.

01:05:52.640 --> 01:05:56.020
And yes, I mean, if you flirt with the idea of it,

01:05:56.020 --> 01:05:58.120
you might think, I wish I could stay,

01:05:58.540 --> 01:06:00.560
but no, it's not the right thing to do.

01:06:02.660 --> 01:06:03.040
All right.

01:06:03.580 --> 01:06:05.840
Well, I don't think I have anything else on the episode.

01:06:06.980 --> 01:06:09.960
Next week is the premiere finale.

01:06:10.580 --> 01:06:14.520
Yes, which I feel like I know nothing about,

01:06:14.680 --> 01:06:16.940
which I'm absolutely fine with,

01:06:17.200 --> 01:06:22.760
But it's not obvious to me that there has been any sort of arc.

01:06:23.320 --> 01:06:26.340
I'm betting on Toothface showing up again.

01:06:26.880 --> 01:06:31.020
Well, that's the only thing who was mentioned in The Ghost Monument.

01:06:31.260 --> 01:06:32.700
So he's been mentioned in two episodes.

01:06:33.440 --> 01:06:38.160
I hope not, because he wasn't my favorite aspect of the series.

01:06:39.360 --> 01:06:42.580
But there has been nothing else in between.

01:06:43.220 --> 01:06:43.440
Stenza?

01:06:44.200 --> 01:06:44.680
Stenza?

01:06:44.980 --> 01:06:45.220
Stenza.

01:06:45.280 --> 01:06:45.960
Stenza, yeah.

01:06:46.520 --> 01:06:47.820
And Tim Shaw.

01:06:48.670 --> 01:06:49.100
Tim Shaw.

01:06:49.270 --> 01:06:50.640
Yeah, I don't know if it'll be Tim Shaw

01:06:50.780 --> 01:06:53.660
or whether it'll be other Stenzers.

01:06:54.740 --> 01:06:56.520
I would guess it's got to be Tim Shaw.

01:06:57.600 --> 01:06:58.960
If I were writing it,

01:06:59.380 --> 01:07:02.480
and if I had thought that was a good idea in the first place,

01:07:02.660 --> 01:07:02.880
the doctor ruined it.

01:07:02.880 --> 01:07:04.460
If you thought it was the idea to be Tim Shaw,

01:07:04.839 --> 01:07:05.800
you'd make it Tim Shaw.

01:07:05.900 --> 01:07:07.040
Then I would make it Tim Shaw again,

01:07:07.180 --> 01:07:08.460
because Tim Shaw, the doctor,

01:07:08.760 --> 01:07:11.780
basically ruined Tim Shaw's life, presumably.

01:07:12.280 --> 01:07:13.600
He was in line to be leader.

01:07:13.800 --> 01:07:14.520
He's now failed.

01:07:14.680 --> 01:07:15.920
He's been beaten by a woman.

01:07:16.160 --> 01:07:22.420
he's been sent back from primitive earth i assume that he's been that whatever was his destiny back

01:07:22.490 --> 01:07:29.400
with the stenza has been drastically altered from that that failure so well i have to say i had a

01:07:29.400 --> 01:07:35.380
dream last night in which i watched the final doctor who i say final doctor who it's like the

01:07:35.470 --> 01:07:44.119
final doctor who for three weeks but still and it was just another somewhat experimental episode

01:07:44.140 --> 01:07:47.200
in the way that this one was quite experimental.

01:07:47.660 --> 01:07:49.840
And I felt disappointed that it wasn't somehow

01:07:50.700 --> 01:07:52.160
a concluding arc episode,

01:07:52.540 --> 01:07:54.480
which when I woke up rather surprised me

01:07:54.660 --> 01:07:55.100
because I thought,

01:07:55.600 --> 01:07:57.940
I don't particularly want an arc for the sake of an arc.

01:07:58.100 --> 01:08:00.260
I'm quite happy having all these standalone episodes.

01:08:00.440 --> 01:08:03.200
If we just get another decent standalone episode next week,

01:08:03.360 --> 01:08:04.020
wouldn't that be good?

01:08:04.100 --> 01:08:06.920
Do we need something that involves the stanza?

01:08:07.380 --> 01:08:09.840
Do we need something that's a series finale?

01:08:10.220 --> 01:08:11.640
Does it end on a cliffhanger?

01:08:12.080 --> 01:08:13.280
Do we, you know, I don't,

01:08:15.600 --> 01:08:19.600
does it all come to a head with the crew of the TARDIS?

01:08:20.020 --> 01:08:20.480
I don't know.

01:08:21.060 --> 01:08:21.700
I really don't know.

01:08:21.740 --> 01:08:23.600
I don't know what to expect from this.

01:08:24.299 --> 01:08:28.700
I feel like what I want is now a bookend to the series,

01:08:30.500 --> 01:08:34.380
but really, I still think I'll just settle for a jolly good episode,

01:08:35.380 --> 01:08:36.080
whatever it is.

01:08:36.580 --> 01:08:37.799
Well, we can hope.

01:08:39.839 --> 01:08:40.339
We can hope.

01:08:40.580 --> 01:08:44.839
Marking it down if it's not a series arc finale.

01:08:45.160 --> 01:08:47.980
I will probably knock it down if it is a series arc finale.

01:08:48.839 --> 01:08:50.000
Because there hasn't been one.

01:08:50.200 --> 01:08:53.520
I mean, nothing to me will ever be as egregious as Bad Wolf.

01:08:54.000 --> 01:08:54.299
Nothing.

01:08:54.680 --> 01:08:58.859
That was just so poorly thought through that...

01:08:58.960 --> 01:09:04.620
I agree it wasn't a great arc, although I really, really enjoyed whatever it was called.

01:09:04.900 --> 01:09:05.700
Parting of the Ways?

01:09:05.960 --> 01:09:06.799
Parting of the Ways.

01:09:07.040 --> 01:09:07.120
Yeah.

01:09:07.420 --> 01:09:14.680
Yeah, but the excuse that I sent these words out into the universe to warn you, of course, is, you know, try a different warning.

01:09:15.080 --> 01:09:15.880
Didn't do any good.

01:09:16.220 --> 01:09:22.120
Yes, but that's a slightly different thing in the sense that all the way through that series, Series 27,

01:09:23.120 --> 01:09:26.980
we were expecting some resolution to these teasers.

01:09:27.180 --> 01:09:29.060
We haven't had any teasers in this one.

01:09:29.319 --> 01:09:29.460
No.

01:09:30.560 --> 01:09:39.319
The doctor, the child, what was it in the ghost monument that the ribbon, that the sentient bandages were saying to her about?

01:09:39.529 --> 01:09:41.020
They did. They definitely did.

01:09:41.150 --> 01:09:42.600
They did say something.

01:09:42.730 --> 01:09:49.540
But was that anything more significant than Granny 7 and Granny 2 thinking that he was a Zygon?

01:09:49.799 --> 01:09:51.920
No, Granny 7 thinking that Granny 2 was a Zygon.

01:09:52.060 --> 01:10:01.960
I mean, it sounded like the ribbons or the bandages were making a proclamation that the doctor was unaware of something in the doctor's past.

01:10:02.270 --> 01:10:05.380
So, I mean, it sounded like it wasn't just babbling.

01:10:05.470 --> 01:10:13.940
It sounded like they were, you know, kind of like the kind of like at the beginning of the 11th hour, the doctor and the TARDIS doesn't know.

01:10:14.360 --> 01:10:22.460
I mean, it's a silly line, but it did at least come about that apparently people knew the TARDIS was going to blow up.

01:10:23.520 --> 01:10:26.760
It had that feel to it, but that's gone nowhere either.

01:10:27.070 --> 01:10:28.060
No one's mentioned that.

01:10:28.270 --> 01:10:35.840
No, and it seems odd that either there would have been some other mention between now and then,

01:10:35.870 --> 01:10:42.940
or that there's no particular reason why, if there is any follow-up to that, why it should happen in next week's episode.

01:10:44.460 --> 01:10:45.680
Yeah, yeah, I don't know.

01:10:46.480 --> 01:10:49.100
Anyway, well, thank you for joining me.

01:10:49.420 --> 01:10:50.340
It's a pleasure, as always.

01:10:50.720 --> 01:10:55.920
And listeners, I hope you'll join us all next time when we talk to you about how you become a firefighter.

01:10:59.000 --> 01:10:59.740
On Fusion Patrol.

01:11:04.320 --> 01:11:07.780
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01:11:08.280 --> 01:11:15.900
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01:11:17.800 --> 01:11:20.540
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01:11:22.620 --> 01:11:25.140
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01:11:26.640 --> 01:11:29.720
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01:11:31.220 --> 01:11:33.600
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