WEBVTT 00:00:10.480 --> 00:00:16.100 We take a single episode of a science fiction TV series and overanalyze it to within an 00:00:16.299 --> 00:00:17.180 inch of its life. 00:00:17.800 --> 00:00:19.440 This is the Fusion Patrol podcast. 00:00:20.260 --> 00:00:21.280 Welcome to the discussion. 00:00:30.000 --> 00:00:32.980 Hello and welcome to another episode of Fusion Patrol. I'm Eugene. 00:00:33.540 --> 00:00:34.100 And I'm Simon. 00:00:34.460 --> 00:00:40.700 And tonight we're looking at the Doctor Who Series 11, or Series 37, episode The Witch Finders. 00:00:41.120 --> 00:00:46.980 Doc and the gang arrive in Lancashire, just in time for the dunking of an old woman, an accused witch. 00:00:47.400 --> 00:00:52.820 And despite the doctor warning her gang not to interfere with history, once again her companion... 00:00:52.970 --> 00:00:56.180 Oh, wait, this time the doctor interferes, but it's too late. 00:00:56.310 --> 00:00:57.540 The old woman has drowned. 00:00:58.040 --> 00:00:59.320 Hashtag sad. 00:00:59.610 --> 00:01:01.400 But at least she wasn't a witch. 00:01:01.760 --> 00:01:08.200 At first, the doctor passes herself off as King James' witchfinder general to Becca Savage, the local landlord. 00:01:08.900 --> 00:01:14.880 But then, in one of those awkward moments, King James turns up, and it appears her cover is blown. 00:01:15.140 --> 00:01:18.200 but King James accepts the story with one minor correction. 00:01:18.640 --> 00:01:22.840 Obviously, as a woman, the doctor can only be the Witchfinder General's assistant. 00:01:23.280 --> 00:01:25.460 Graham is taken to be the Witchfinder General. 00:01:25.920 --> 00:01:29.260 Luckily, King James doesn't appear to know the people he is appointed to office. 00:01:29.760 --> 00:01:34.420 The doctor discovers that Becca has been purging the village of suspected witches for months, 00:01:34.920 --> 00:01:36.720 and her fervor is unabated. 00:01:37.260 --> 00:01:42.140 King James is equally as fervent, and they set about to save the entire village's souls, 00:01:42.640 --> 00:01:44.180 even if it means killing them all. 00:01:44.560 --> 00:01:49.040 Yaz discovers that the women who have been killed have been resurrected as mud zombies, 00:01:49.780 --> 00:01:52.880 animated corpses filled with alien mud. 00:01:53.220 --> 00:01:56.660 As the doctor's investigations bring her increasingly in conflict with Becca, 00:01:56.970 --> 00:01:59.140 she finds herself accused of witchcraft. 00:01:59.520 --> 00:02:04.260 Finally, the gang must wield torches and go on a hunt to end the menace 00:02:04.390 --> 00:02:07.440 that threatens to fill the world with mud. 00:02:08.420 --> 00:02:10.960 Okay, the Witchfinders, the Witchfinders. 00:02:11.360 --> 00:02:13.740 What's your initial thoughts on the Witchfinders? 00:02:14.140 --> 00:02:22.200 Well, I have to say, generally speaking, I'm really quite impressed by the historicals we've had in this season. 00:02:23.200 --> 00:02:24.540 Apart from the Alien Menace part? 00:02:24.890 --> 00:02:38.760 Apart, yes. Well, yes. I was trying to think of a positive way of putting that, which is, all right, if you want a positive on the Alien Menace in this particular story, it's not quite as tacked on as in, for example, Demons of the Punjab. 00:02:38.800 --> 00:02:47.860 it's more integral to the story itself and so in that sense it's more forgivable okay and 00:02:48.340 --> 00:02:54.180 it kind of needs to be there i mean you're gonna well i'm not sure it does okay no no let me rephrase 00:02:54.190 --> 00:03:00.380 i would i would have liked a pure historical about witch trials okay no i what i i guess what i meant 00:03:00.480 --> 00:03:05.139 was if you were gonna have a if you're gonna have the story of mud zombies that were being accused 00:03:05.160 --> 00:03:10.400 to being witches or something of that nature, then perhaps setting it in the maybe 16th, 00:03:10.490 --> 00:03:16.380 maybe 17th century is needed as opposed to setting it on the 23rd stage. 00:03:16.850 --> 00:03:20.640 You know, putting it on Mars, in the water of Mars, you would never take them as witches. 00:03:20.960 --> 00:03:25.500 So, but yes, they could have had a story about witches that was not, that had nothing to 00:03:25.500 --> 00:03:25.840 do with aliens. 00:03:26.030 --> 00:03:27.020 I absolutely agree. 00:03:27.320 --> 00:03:27.980 I absolutely agree. 00:03:28.180 --> 00:03:31.860 And I was very disappointed when the tendril popped up out of the ground. 00:03:33.580 --> 00:03:40.360 ah darn it of course it's aliens again so i did wonder if the text that said damn and nothing else 00:03:40.720 --> 00:03:45.000 to me might be connected with the fact that when i worked it out arrived at a time that was probably 00:03:45.160 --> 00:03:50.360 about 15 minutes into the original transition transmission time of doctor who yes and and 00:03:50.680 --> 00:03:55.580 oddly enough that was exactly what that meant it was at exactly the moment the tendrils popped up 00:03:55.720 --> 00:04:01.620 and it wasn't meant for you because i figured you probably weren't watching it and that i would be a 00:04:01.620 --> 00:04:06.400 spoiler but i was sending it to somebody else but i accidentally sent that text to you but yes that 00:04:06.560 --> 00:04:12.920 dam was when the aliens appeared because again with the trailers that they are doing this year 00:04:13.260 --> 00:04:18.579 and with the dearth of information that they're putting out you could be perfectly believable 00:04:19.060 --> 00:04:23.260 believing that there was this was a straight historical from everything we see they they 00:04:23.560 --> 00:04:29.380 completely avoid showing you anything that looks alieny yeah in the trailer so and in demons of 00:04:29.360 --> 00:04:35.780 the punjab they did kind of have that whirlwind doctor materialize shot and and maybe a shot of 00:04:35.820 --> 00:04:40.500 the thing underground so that you could think oh there's something there is something spacey going 00:04:40.520 --> 00:04:45.260 on but but in this one yeah i i thought i thought they were going to have the courage to do it but 00:04:45.420 --> 00:04:53.599 apparently not so nevertheless nevertheless it's it's still got a lot to got a lot to commend it 00:04:53.620 --> 00:04:59.600 in terms of being both a kind of, not that I'm an expert, 00:04:59.750 --> 00:05:03.400 but certainly it seemed to me a reasonably accurate account 00:05:04.100 --> 00:05:06.120 of witch trials around that period. 00:05:06.680 --> 00:05:10.680 And an interesting period, in fact, to look at. 00:05:10.780 --> 00:05:14.780 That's what I'm particularly excited about, I think, in this series, 00:05:15.040 --> 00:05:19.459 is that they've gone for historicals that aren't necessarily 00:05:19.480 --> 00:05:26.420 the kind of blockbuster box office stories like dickens or shakespeare although this is 00:05:26.640 --> 00:05:33.220 contemporaneous contemporaneous with shakespeare should be yes yes yes indeed yes it would be um 00:05:33.640 --> 00:05:39.260 but a very very different kind of story than the shakespeare code oh yeah one with witches again 00:05:39.780 --> 00:05:45.080 absolutely uh you know something the the the like the shakespeare one is very ren fair 00:05:45.720 --> 00:05:53.160 and this isn't this is a little more let's say realistic is a hard word to use but it it certainly 00:05:53.500 --> 00:05:59.840 doesn't make it look like a bunch of merry peasants hanging around and shading shouting huzzah and 00:05:59.900 --> 00:06:04.580 eating turkey legs um which is kind of what you get out of the shakespeare code it's it's a very 00:06:05.000 --> 00:06:10.719 dean park version this this looks like a very hey this looks like a really bad time to be alive 00:06:10.980 --> 00:06:27.180 Yes, I think that's the key difference. It's actually, I mean, Ryan says he more or less could have just turned to the camera and said, hey, kids, don't you think this is a bit dark? It is pretty dark. 00:06:27.580 --> 00:06:34.120 you know that's that dark ages kind of thing yeah but it it i thought i thought that was i 00:06:34.150 --> 00:06:42.120 thought that was well handled because we are going into a into a a scenario that was itself a pretty 00:06:42.340 --> 00:06:49.060 dark period if you're going to go there then you really ought to face up to that and i thought they 00:06:49.440 --> 00:06:54.639 handled that really well considering you've got to you've got to get up and move on and have some 00:06:54.700 --> 00:07:03.480 kind of sci-fi action adventure afterwards the way in which the doctor reacted because my my kind 00:07:03.480 --> 00:07:07.660 of initial response to the doctor giving the lecture on oh you know you mustn't interfere 00:07:07.660 --> 00:07:12.440 in history it's just oh we're going there again but it was there for a purpose it was setting it 00:07:12.440 --> 00:07:17.940 was setting the context of showing the doctor intervening and that that moment where the the 00:07:18.280 --> 00:07:24.620 friends the companions fam whatever we call them were looking at her to see how she would react 00:07:24.640 --> 00:07:30.620 you were, you know, you didn't know. You didn't know how she would react. And her choice of 00:07:30.840 --> 00:07:37.140 reaction, I just felt was spot on. That's, that is what the doctor would do. Or it's what the 00:07:37.250 --> 00:07:42.480 doctor we know now would do. I mean, maybe not the William Hartnell who would have brained someone 00:07:42.660 --> 00:07:49.620 with a rock would have done, but certainly the doctor who has become a little more affectionate 00:07:49.640 --> 00:07:55.260 towards humans. Well, certainly Tom Baker, Leela era. I think there have been cases where the 00:07:55.420 --> 00:08:00.620 doctor was definitely do as I say, not as I do. Oh, you know, kind of like telling Leela not to 00:08:00.650 --> 00:08:05.240 do something. And then the doctor goes off to do it. You know, it's been less so this year. 00:08:05.700 --> 00:08:09.760 It has been the doctor kind of warning off the companions and the companions trying to 00:08:10.150 --> 00:08:14.580 really being the ones that are chafing. And, you know, rightly so. I mean, I can, 00:08:14.620 --> 00:08:21.460 completely understand. On the other hand, I can also, honestly, from a state of cowardice, 00:08:21.880 --> 00:08:26.300 say, you know, all those people are standing there and they're not doing anything because 00:08:26.540 --> 00:08:33.219 they know they could be next. And that's a sort of informed and intelligent decision, 00:08:33.419 --> 00:08:38.200 even if it is cowardly. So, you know, if the doctor says, gosh, don't go over there, 00:08:38.200 --> 00:08:43.960 you interfere with history and they'll kill you. That's a true statement. It's like you're very 00:08:43.979 --> 00:08:49.800 likely to die from that but but i i think i think i'm gonna come back to the the bystanders 00:08:49.940 --> 00:08:54.740 questions i think that's an interesting one but the the doctor's focus on not interfering seems 00:08:54.760 --> 00:09:00.240 to be about not messing with the web of time right other than the health and safety of her 00:09:00.480 --> 00:09:06.720 companions although yeah she does clearly have some some regard for that but that's right she's 00:09:06.720 --> 00:09:12.600 the only doctor that's ever made them basically have consent so that now she's absolved of guilt 00:09:12.620 --> 00:09:13.820 when they die instead of Adra. 00:09:14.480 --> 00:09:14.580 Yes. 00:09:15.720 --> 00:09:16.500 I did tell him, 00:09:16.980 --> 00:09:18.140 could get blown up on a spaceship 00:09:18.340 --> 00:09:19.380 while trying to undo some locks. 00:09:19.410 --> 00:09:19.900 I'm just saying. 00:09:20.120 --> 00:09:20.300 All right. 00:09:21.020 --> 00:09:22.280 Yeah, quite right too. 00:09:22.440 --> 00:09:23.020 Quite right too. 00:09:23.620 --> 00:09:25.420 I'm very much in favor of that. 00:09:25.660 --> 00:09:28.420 But I also think that, you know, 00:09:28.960 --> 00:09:34.000 this is a Doctor where the real genuine sense 00:09:34.260 --> 00:09:36.660 of jeopardy has been reintroduced 00:09:36.720 --> 00:09:39.800 in that some of the environments she has taken, 00:09:40.300 --> 00:09:42.480 she's gone into with her companions, 00:09:43.120 --> 00:09:45.080 have felt so... 00:09:45.760 --> 00:09:48.880 Places that are hostile or inimical to life 00:09:49.030 --> 00:09:49.980 in one way or another 00:09:50.440 --> 00:09:54.320 that the odds genuinely seemed stacked against. 00:09:54.940 --> 00:09:55.640 Which, no. 00:09:55.900 --> 00:09:57.580 Well, I was just going to say, 00:09:57.660 --> 00:09:59.060 in this situation here, 00:09:59.430 --> 00:10:00.060 so it is. 00:10:00.600 --> 00:10:04.740 Previous kind of almost omnipotent versions of the Doctor 00:10:05.240 --> 00:10:08.220 would perhaps have found some way 00:10:08.240 --> 00:10:14.100 of saving that old woman at the beginning. What I like about how they handled this here was they 00:10:14.330 --> 00:10:19.320 they wouldn't I don't think they could but they wouldn't let the doctor stand by in order to 00:10:19.540 --> 00:10:24.240 protect the web of history and let the old woman just die without trying to do something about it 00:10:24.740 --> 00:10:31.720 but they had her do something about it and yet she was unsuccessful and it wasn't it wasn't that 00:10:31.640 --> 00:10:38.720 she didn't make a genuine effort it was more that the the situation they found themselves in was a 00:10:38.850 --> 00:10:44.860 was a really perilous one even though you're not talking about i mean at that time there's no alien 00:10:45.080 --> 00:10:49.780 threat or anything there's no threat of universal destruction or anything like that it's literally 00:10:50.020 --> 00:10:57.900 just this woman's life is is in mortal danger from from the mob and who could do anything about 00:10:57.920 --> 00:11:03.360 that with you know with with absolutely no resources and the doctor does her best and you 00:11:03.480 --> 00:11:11.100 can't fault her for it and she takes a huge risk in doing so but the woman still dies so you say 00:11:11.160 --> 00:11:17.360 that they've created a genuine sense of threat and i'm trying to think back on the episodes and 00:11:18.080 --> 00:11:24.160 i i don't know about demons of the punjab but this episode rosa are the two that stand out to me 00:11:24.380 --> 00:11:25.760 as being a genuine sense of threat. 00:11:26.320 --> 00:11:29.420 I mean, Ghost Monument felt pretty dangerous to me. 00:11:29.920 --> 00:11:30.060 Did it? 00:11:30.150 --> 00:11:32.340 Because I think my complaint about the Ghost Monument 00:11:32.420 --> 00:11:35.020 is they kept talking about how deadly the planet was 00:11:35.360 --> 00:11:37.500 and not, ooh, the atmosphere is poisonous, 00:11:37.760 --> 00:11:38.520 yet we're breathing it. 00:11:38.900 --> 00:11:39.520 Oh, we're going to... 00:11:39.540 --> 00:11:40.380 The water's poisonous. 00:11:40.580 --> 00:11:41.840 The water's poisonous, but... 00:11:41.960 --> 00:11:43.380 What you see in it, 00:11:43.800 --> 00:11:45.040 and what I think is so effective, 00:11:45.130 --> 00:11:47.720 is you see it in people's reactions. 00:11:48.940 --> 00:11:51.600 So it's not that they're just telling you. 00:11:51.800 --> 00:11:53.260 It's that they're... 00:11:53.280 --> 00:12:01.860 It's not like you have to see someone fall in the water and have the flesh eaten off their bones or whatever in order to understand that it's dangerous. 00:12:02.140 --> 00:12:06.680 Even if it were, I don't feel like, all right, here's my thesis then. 00:12:06.880 --> 00:12:12.320 The episodes in the past, the threat feels more real because it's not made up, right? 00:12:12.460 --> 00:12:15.080 The planet with the atmosphere is a made up thing. 00:12:15.320 --> 00:12:18.160 The flesh eating bacteria in the water is a made up thing. 00:12:18.200 --> 00:12:24.900 The doctor can pull out the sonic screwdriver and go, oh, I've just attenuated the bacteria in this water and it's fine. 00:12:25.040 --> 00:12:26.500 That's why you didn't die when you fell in. 00:12:26.900 --> 00:12:30.880 It's a made up non-threat, but witch trials are real. 00:12:31.500 --> 00:12:35.660 Nasty people with torches and pitchforks and religious fervor are real. 00:12:36.120 --> 00:12:37.980 Those are real threats you can get away. 00:12:39.420 --> 00:12:41.020 I'm going to partially agree with you. 00:12:41.160 --> 00:12:48.060 I mean, I don't think it is just the ones in the past, but I think it is about basing the threat on something real. 00:12:48.620 --> 00:12:55.720 the vacuum of space is real so it's not as if you couldn't have something that was extraterrestrial 00:12:56.120 --> 00:13:02.940 or set in the future and had a real threat in it maybe maybe it's maybe it's the expectation of 00:13:03.300 --> 00:13:09.460 maybe it is years of the writers cheating starting with russell t davies worse than any of them you 00:13:09.460 --> 00:13:13.560 know put us all up in danger and that the last minute sonic screwdriver comes out grab a pail 00:13:13.580 --> 00:13:15.500 of glop slide down the elevator shaft. 00:13:15.500 --> 00:13:17.480 I don't think that's done with Russell T. Davies. 00:13:17.800 --> 00:13:19.540 Yeah, but he really shorthanded it 00:13:19.900 --> 00:13:21.660 into the miracle at the end 00:13:21.660 --> 00:13:22.180 of the episode. 00:13:23.480 --> 00:13:24.860 Well, that's part of the format thing. 00:13:25.200 --> 00:13:27.680 Yeah, it's a 45 minutes. He chose the format, 00:13:28.180 --> 00:13:29.640 so I assume that he 00:13:29.760 --> 00:13:31.540 is an intricately part of it. I'm not trying to 00:13:32.019 --> 00:13:33.460 bash on Russell T. Davies, 00:13:33.620 --> 00:13:35.320 but at the same time, I feel like 00:13:35.620 --> 00:13:37.620 that has accelerated rapidly at that point. 00:13:38.339 --> 00:13:39.260 And so, yeah, 00:13:39.660 --> 00:13:41.660 even if you dump him in space, I kind of feel 00:13:41.660 --> 00:13:45.600 like the doctor could go well the sonic screwdriver happens to have a force field that generates an 00:13:45.780 --> 00:13:50.740 atmosphere thing but you can't undo racism you can't go to atlanta with a sonic screwdriver and 00:13:50.940 --> 00:13:56.640 solve racism can't do it threats threats threats threats real because it's a real threat it's a 00:13:56.800 --> 00:14:01.460 real problem in my mind as opposed to one that was made up by the writer and i guess that's what i'm 00:14:01.780 --> 00:14:07.940 i'm still basically in agreement with it but i i think she i think it goes beyond it goes beyond 00:14:07.960 --> 00:14:15.400 what you choose there because you can you can have a situation like this and you can treat it 00:14:15.400 --> 00:14:23.240 in a way that doesn't make the threat real so for example if you'd had a doctor who was a version of 00:14:23.240 --> 00:14:29.620 the doctor who was more powerful than the current version played by Jodie Whittaker and he had 00:14:29.940 --> 00:14:36.579 actually been successful in rescuing the old lady it creates a sense that actually yes the doctor 00:14:36.520 --> 00:14:44.000 can undo a lot of these things it is it by by whatever action she takes because she's because 00:14:44.160 --> 00:14:50.440 she's smarter because she's faster she's cleverer she can actually protect herself from some of the 00:14:50.560 --> 00:14:57.400 consequences of these places and so i guess what i'm saying about that scene is it was important 00:14:57.980 --> 00:15:05.620 that we did see the consequences and that the the kind of horror of what what people's religious 00:15:05.620 --> 00:15:12.400 beliefs led them to do was actually shown on screen before you kind of go off into the 00:15:12.940 --> 00:15:19.080 extraterrestrial story which you know in its way was actually solved with a bit of magic wand 00:15:19.260 --> 00:15:25.960 waving and that that in itself didn't feel so real but this part of the episode did did you 00:15:26.100 --> 00:15:31.920 just inadvertently and i i suspect it's convention and and history but i thought it was interesting 00:15:31.940 --> 00:15:33.960 that your gender pronouns switched. 00:15:34.460 --> 00:15:36.140 When you were talking about a more powerful version 00:15:36.170 --> 00:15:37.880 of the Doctor, you said he. 00:15:38.300 --> 00:15:42.320 Only because the previous versions of the Doctor 00:15:42.780 --> 00:15:43.540 have all been men, 00:15:43.680 --> 00:15:45.600 and I'm talking about a previous version of the Doctor. 00:15:46.020 --> 00:15:49.100 I was searching in my head 00:15:49.260 --> 00:15:50.940 for whether that was the right pronoun, 00:15:51.280 --> 00:15:53.060 but at the time it would have been he, 00:15:53.460 --> 00:15:55.240 and now it's she. 00:15:55.680 --> 00:15:56.420 So I don't know. 00:15:56.880 --> 00:15:58.660 So the she Doctor is a lesser, 00:15:59.320 --> 00:16:00.880 less powerful version of the Doctor. 00:16:01.300 --> 00:16:10.380 I know. No, I wouldn't say that. I would say that the Peter Davison version is a less powerful version of the Doctor than the Tom Baker version, for example. 00:16:10.660 --> 00:16:26.420 And the Jodie Whittaker version is a less powerful version than, well, certainly than David Tennant, who strikes me as that version of the Doctor was someone who really did attain almost literally in some of the episodes, godlike powers. 00:16:26.860 --> 00:16:29.240 And I don't like that. 00:16:30.020 --> 00:16:34.000 No, I prefer, I truly prefer the era. 00:16:34.160 --> 00:16:38.780 And even when you have a doctor who was enormously powerful like Pertwee, 00:16:39.090 --> 00:16:45.220 I feel like when they get dumped on a planet like Colony in Space or the Mutants, 00:16:46.090 --> 00:16:49.120 that they're in, you know, he's not omnipotent. 00:16:49.420 --> 00:16:56.420 He's not much stronger than the rest of us when it comes to bullets and death by choking and whatnot. 00:16:56.480 --> 00:17:04.760 That there is there is a potentially of course, I didn't think the writers are going to just cheat him out of it, too, with the Sonic in those in that era. 00:17:05.220 --> 00:17:18.600 And and I do really appreciate the fact that when they set the doctor down here, I feel like there is a, you know, she doesn't just have to stand up on a rock and tell everyone that she's the doctor and they all go running. 00:17:18.980 --> 00:17:20.420 Yes. Yes, exactly. 00:17:21.459 --> 00:17:29.040 While you're picking up on the gender pronouns, there's somewhere else I want to go with this episode, which I appreciated. 00:17:29.810 --> 00:17:39.700 And you might not expect it because certainly when we were looking forward to, well, I was looking forward to the new doctor taking over the role. 00:17:39.910 --> 00:17:44.700 I was keen that they didn't make a big deal out of the gender change. 00:17:44.850 --> 00:17:49.760 Because obviously there's the potential for a lot of mileage in jokes and throwaway comments. 00:17:49.960 --> 00:17:59.640 Can I just, before you carry that thought, I just want to say that my reservation on that was that if you're, I agree that they shouldn't make an issue out of it. 00:17:59.920 --> 00:18:06.580 My concern is that if they did make the doctor a woman, they would make an issue out of it. 00:18:06.760 --> 00:18:13.380 And that they would fundamentally have to alter the storytelling so that they could do that. 00:18:13.680 --> 00:18:17.620 So that they would have, so that they could present those issues that were a problem. 00:18:18.080 --> 00:18:21.740 And I've got a section here that I suspect is tailing right to where you're going. 00:18:22.040 --> 00:18:24.120 It could well be where I'm going with it. 00:18:24.220 --> 00:18:30.320 But the opposite end of that is that if they completely ignore it, why did they do it? 00:18:30.660 --> 00:18:34.420 Other than just to appease, you know, it's not an artistic decision. 00:18:34.640 --> 00:18:36.620 It's a, well, let's do that. 00:18:37.180 --> 00:18:44.000 Why have they cast men for so long other than to appease the radical male lobby? 00:18:44.700 --> 00:18:48.000 I don't think it was ever done to appease the radical male lobby 00:18:48.100 --> 00:18:50.000 until the last couple of years. 00:18:50.220 --> 00:18:53.180 I think it was done because the doctor is a man 00:18:53.380 --> 00:18:54.460 and we hired another actor. 00:18:54.560 --> 00:18:55.640 It was done because of the patriarchy. 00:18:56.460 --> 00:18:57.780 I really don't believe that. 00:18:57.900 --> 00:19:00.840 I really believe it was done because the doctor was a man 00:19:01.380 --> 00:19:02.860 and, yeah, we have to hire a new actor. 00:19:03.320 --> 00:19:04.640 It just wouldn't occur to anybody. 00:19:05.180 --> 00:19:06.120 And I guess you could... 00:19:06.240 --> 00:19:07.180 Yeah, that's what I'm saying. 00:19:07.340 --> 00:19:08.680 It wouldn't occur to anybody. 00:19:08.940 --> 00:19:09.660 That is my point. 00:19:10.020 --> 00:19:11.600 No, I think that you would not... 00:19:11.860 --> 00:19:12.420 You wouldn't. 00:19:12.940 --> 00:19:13.820 You wouldn't. 00:19:13.960 --> 00:19:14.900 You just wouldn't. 00:19:15.170 --> 00:19:15.300 Exactly. 00:19:15.920 --> 00:19:17.600 No, you wouldn't think of changing it. 00:19:17.760 --> 00:19:18.980 It's like, it's a guy, it's a guy. 00:19:19.160 --> 00:19:19.220 Exactly. 00:19:19.260 --> 00:19:19.640 It's a guy. 00:19:19.780 --> 00:19:20.360 He's the next guy. 00:19:20.680 --> 00:19:24.200 He's going to keep his little willy when he goes from one generation to the next. 00:19:24.290 --> 00:19:29.380 It might change shape and color and hair color and whatnot, but it's a guy becoming a guy. 00:19:29.780 --> 00:19:31.200 You would not think of it. 00:19:31.380 --> 00:19:37.240 That is the agenda mode as opposed to, okay, when we had to hire a new actor. 00:19:38.020 --> 00:19:44.280 And I don't think it's the aggressive male patriarchy trying to keep the women down. 00:19:44.340 --> 00:19:49.660 I think it's just, I don't want to say common sense, but I mean, it's just the default behavior. 00:19:49.680 --> 00:19:50.500 It is. 00:19:51.260 --> 00:19:53.200 This guy is this guy is this guy. 00:19:53.340 --> 00:19:56.160 You just never go, well, this guy is this guy, this guy, this guy, this woman. 00:19:56.620 --> 00:19:56.720 What? 00:19:57.080 --> 00:19:58.300 No, you wouldn't do that. 00:19:58.580 --> 00:19:58.660 Anyway. 00:19:59.820 --> 00:20:01.400 It's certainly the ingrained assumption. 00:20:02.179 --> 00:20:02.740 The default. 00:20:02.740 --> 00:20:04.740 The ingrained sort of biological assumption. 00:20:04.960 --> 00:20:05.060 Yeah. 00:20:05.300 --> 00:20:06.100 Anyway, go ahead. 00:20:06.420 --> 00:20:06.540 Sorry. 00:20:06.860 --> 00:20:07.180 Derailed. 00:20:07.340 --> 00:20:10.640 I just wanted to say those were my misgivings before we go into this conversation. 00:20:10.790 --> 00:20:11.140 So go. 00:20:11.320 --> 00:20:13.180 Well, I'm sure we've been there. 00:20:13.700 --> 00:20:20.760 My hope was that they would just, the doctor would regenerate and then we could just get on with it. 00:20:21.240 --> 00:20:24.260 And pretty much that has been what's happened. 00:20:24.680 --> 00:20:25.900 And that's great. 00:20:26.540 --> 00:20:34.020 What I appreciated in this episode was that, I mean, obviously when we're talking about witch trials, 00:20:34.960 --> 00:20:37.640 although obviously religion is a big aspect of it, 00:20:37.700 --> 00:20:40.800 you can't ignore the misogyny inherent in it. 00:20:41.200 --> 00:20:43.060 And you throw the doctor into that. 00:20:43.300 --> 00:20:43.700 All witches are women. 00:20:44.000 --> 00:20:45.760 The Pendle Witch Trials, not all of them are women. 00:20:46.040 --> 00:20:51.060 I think it's one of those things where you have to go below 00:20:51.600 --> 00:20:54.980 the kind of surface level sexism and say, 00:20:55.380 --> 00:20:56.600 actually, who does this affect? 00:20:56.900 --> 00:21:00.220 It's kind of like laws that only affect part-time workers. 00:21:00.680 --> 00:21:02.800 And you say, oh, well, you know, there's nothing sexist about it, 00:21:02.900 --> 00:21:05.000 except that the majority of part-time workers are women, 00:21:05.380 --> 00:21:07.160 and it disproportionately affects them. 00:21:07.580 --> 00:21:13.540 So I think it's pretty hard to separate this out from the misogyny 00:21:13.700 --> 00:21:17.920 that I don't think we are going to have a problem with, 00:21:18.180 --> 00:21:21.060 agreeing that was around in the 16th century. 00:21:22.120 --> 00:21:26.560 And so the doctor makes references to this, 00:21:27.260 --> 00:21:28.500 I can't remember the exact line, 00:21:29.000 --> 00:21:33.440 but about not having any difficulty being listened to when she was a bloke. 00:21:34.360 --> 00:21:41.380 And it's like having regenerated as a man an unfeasantly large number of times in a row. 00:21:41.860 --> 00:21:43.499 She's not had to... 00:21:45.000 --> 00:21:49.540 The kind of privilege that she has enjoyed in patriarchal societies, 00:21:50.120 --> 00:21:52.960 and let's face it, she spent a lot of time on Earth, 00:21:53.220 --> 00:21:59.660 And a lot of time on parts of Earth in times in history that have been very male oriented. 00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:04.760 And so that that kind of privilege has been almost invisible. 00:22:05.280 --> 00:22:07.900 And now and now she's here as a woman. 00:22:08.580 --> 00:22:14.380 And so suddenly that disadvantage she's experiencing becomes very much more obvious. 00:22:14.720 --> 00:22:20.980 And I just liked the way that was brought out and handled without too much being made of it. 00:22:21.260 --> 00:22:22.560 OK, I'll agree. 00:22:23.360 --> 00:22:26.020 I won't completely agree that that's just 00:22:26.280 --> 00:22:27.740 I mean in this particular case 00:22:27.820 --> 00:22:28.440 it's absolutely 00:22:28.920 --> 00:22:29.780 it's a misogyny thing 00:22:29.880 --> 00:22:30.880 so I don't get it that way 00:22:31.100 --> 00:22:31.640 but I'm going to face it 00:22:31.740 --> 00:22:34.020 Peter Davison had exactly the same problem 00:22:34.220 --> 00:22:35.660 he went from a very commanding 00:22:35.880 --> 00:22:36.800 powerful doctor that could 00:22:37.060 --> 00:22:37.860 to command a room 00:22:38.140 --> 00:22:40.280 to someone who could talk to 00:22:40.280 --> 00:22:41.240 he was blue in the face 00:22:41.360 --> 00:22:42.400 and they couldn't convince people 00:22:42.520 --> 00:22:43.100 to listen to him 00:22:43.300 --> 00:22:44.040 in many instances 00:22:44.500 --> 00:22:45.940 so that sort of 00:22:46.760 --> 00:22:47.940 regenerative change from 00:22:48.280 --> 00:22:49.880 gosh I can get people to listen to me 00:22:49.980 --> 00:22:51.799 to gosh I can't get people to listen to me 00:22:51.840 --> 00:22:59.000 has happened to the doctor in the past, just not necessarily for these reasons. So, yeah, 00:22:59.450 --> 00:23:04.180 I mean, so I found the line. Honestly, if I was still a bloke, I could get on with the job and 00:23:04.340 --> 00:23:08.060 not have to waste time defending myself, which, you know, I think is a fair comment. 00:23:08.340 --> 00:23:11.540 I think, I do think it's a fair comment. I think there's certainly, absolutely, 00:23:12.580 --> 00:23:17.740 in that context, it is. But, you know, she has had to deal with this sort of thing in the past. 00:23:18.100 --> 00:23:31.140 My question, you know, it's all about this scene, kind of, is so, first off, and recognizing that we don't go into a whole heck of a lot about British history at this level of detail. 00:23:31.740 --> 00:23:40.900 Would a landowner, would a landlord really have passed to a widow and continued to be the landlord in that period of time? 00:23:41.320 --> 00:23:47.660 And it's sort of, okay, so Becca Zavarosh, she is the landlord. 00:23:47.800 --> 00:23:51.600 and the doctor makes mention of it being unusual for a woman. 00:23:52.080 --> 00:23:55.340 And she's like, my husband died and left it to me. 00:23:55.570 --> 00:23:56.960 And I'm guessing she has no sons. 00:23:57.480 --> 00:24:01.420 And so I'm just curious as to how English law dealt with that 00:24:01.510 --> 00:24:03.220 because women were second class citizens. 00:24:03.640 --> 00:24:05.020 And it feels odd. 00:24:05.480 --> 00:24:06.500 I mean, there may have been no one else, 00:24:06.810 --> 00:24:09.980 but it kind of feels odd that the village accepted her. 00:24:10.180 --> 00:24:15.040 Well, I think without being an expert on 16th century legal history, 00:24:15.080 --> 00:24:18.840 it's probably similar to rules of succession alike. 00:24:19.330 --> 00:24:21.520 You just have no choice if the woman's the only one there is. 00:24:21.530 --> 00:24:21.780 Women are second class. 00:24:22.090 --> 00:24:25.040 Well, yeah, because you might be the eldest child, 00:24:25.520 --> 00:24:28.060 but if you happen to be of the female type of child, 00:24:28.470 --> 00:24:30.040 it doesn't matter that you're the eldest child. 00:24:30.240 --> 00:24:32.120 It's the eldest son who's going to inherit. 00:24:32.620 --> 00:24:35.840 The only way you're going to inherit is if there are no sons. 00:24:36.220 --> 00:24:39.020 And, you know, that's how it works for royal succession. 00:24:39.210 --> 00:24:40.740 And that is accepted. 00:24:41.200 --> 00:24:43.780 I mean, in as much as it is accepted, 00:24:44.720 --> 00:24:47.380 I think that would be a valid question. 00:24:47.630 --> 00:24:52.540 But it's possible that he was an only child or that his brothers died. 00:24:52.570 --> 00:24:56.740 You know, we've got an era when people didn't necessarily all live to a ripe old age. 00:24:56.940 --> 00:25:00.880 If he's died, he might have outlived his brother anyway. 00:25:01.799 --> 00:25:07.340 I guess my point is that this feels a little weird that this is not the normal circumstance. 00:25:07.790 --> 00:25:07.940 Okay. 00:25:08.330 --> 00:25:09.800 Now, that leads to my question. 00:25:10.200 --> 00:25:16.720 The doctor pulls out her sonic paper, psychic paper, sonic psychic paper screwdriver, 00:25:17.480 --> 00:25:24.280 and flashes it to Becca, the woman who is the landlord, which is an odd situation. 00:25:24.460 --> 00:25:27.640 And she sees it that the doctor is the Witchfinder General. 00:25:28.140 --> 00:25:31.060 And the doctor shows the same psychic paper to King James. 00:25:31.540 --> 00:25:34.040 He sees it as the Witchfinder General's assistant. 00:25:34.400 --> 00:25:35.380 Now, two questions. 00:25:35.680 --> 00:25:41.580 One, King James's expectation is different from Becca's, and I'm not sure I believe that, 00:25:41.840 --> 00:25:47.480 because surely Becca knows that women would not be Witchfinder General either, in that, 00:25:47.640 --> 00:25:50.400 I mean, she can't be ignorant of the world that she lives in. 00:25:50.690 --> 00:25:53.540 So it's very odd to me, unless she has different ideas. 00:25:53.540 --> 00:25:58.920 I think the difference there might be, well, I don't know if it's different ideas or different 00:25:59.460 --> 00:26:04.820 experience in the sense that she knows that she is quite capable of being the landlady, 00:26:05.140 --> 00:26:12.980 Whereas the king might not have any experience of a woman being in a position of seniority like that. 00:26:13.180 --> 00:26:13.360 Okay. 00:26:14.000 --> 00:26:17.500 And then following that up, how come they both saw them as witch finders? 00:26:17.860 --> 00:26:25.380 Well, I don't actually know how the psychic paper works, but isn't part of it what the doctor wants them to think? 00:26:25.380 --> 00:26:26.440 I don't know. 00:26:27.040 --> 00:26:29.540 I honestly, this is part of the question. 00:26:29.920 --> 00:26:37.120 Did she go, I'm thinking Witchfinder General, and then shows it to them, and they go, oh, it says Witchfinder General. 00:26:37.620 --> 00:26:40.100 Because in Kerblam, she just throws them, here's our credentials. 00:26:40.640 --> 00:26:50.260 And it kind of felt like the woman who was looking at it just made it up whole, oh, family of the first lady, which is a really bizarre thing to pull out of nowhere. 00:26:50.880 --> 00:26:59.700 And in the past, I've always kind of thought the doctor primed them with what he said before showing them, you know, I'm the doctor. 00:26:59.880 --> 00:27:04.520 she's my plus one and shows the psychic paper and they go is that is that is that how it's 00:27:04.660 --> 00:27:09.160 introduced in the end of the world yes and she's my plus yes i forgot i'd forgotten him priming 00:27:09.440 --> 00:27:14.160 priming yeah so it's and so a lot of times more than he's just expecting to see an invitation 00:27:14.680 --> 00:27:19.240 and and a lot of times when they show it the doctor does prime and i can't say in every situation but 00:27:19.320 --> 00:27:25.199 he'll say these are my credentials and i feel like he's showing them that's going they'll look at that 00:27:25.220 --> 00:27:27.520 and they'll know what credentials they expect to see. 00:27:28.000 --> 00:27:29.380 And sometimes they'll look at it, 00:27:29.460 --> 00:27:31.440 and they'll say something totally off the wall, 00:27:31.880 --> 00:27:33.360 and the doctor will flip it around and go, 00:27:33.680 --> 00:27:34.560 oh, is that what it says? 00:27:35.020 --> 00:27:35.680 Like they didn't expect, 00:27:35.800 --> 00:27:37.540 they expected it to be like I'm from the government, 00:27:37.780 --> 00:27:39.940 but instead it's like I'm from the sanitation bureau 00:27:40.220 --> 00:27:43.600 or whatever weird thing that the person is bringing to it. 00:27:43.900 --> 00:27:46.480 And in this case, I don't remember what the doctor says, 00:27:46.620 --> 00:27:49.460 but it doesn't prime it with anything like, 00:27:49.600 --> 00:27:50.600 you know, we're witch finders, 00:27:50.840 --> 00:27:51.940 and then showing them the thing, 00:27:51.960 --> 00:27:53.560 and then going, oh, you're the witch finder general. 00:27:54.320 --> 00:27:56.540 Could just be a writer discrepancy. 00:27:56.700 --> 00:28:05.260 But I did think it was interesting that they were both witch finders, but King James altered it, or Becca altered it, to their expectations are different. 00:28:05.340 --> 00:28:11.620 And I just wouldn't think Becca's expectations would be different, that she would expect a woman in this position either. 00:28:12.240 --> 00:28:13.300 Despite the fact that she's... 00:28:13.580 --> 00:28:15.020 Well, I think that is... 00:28:15.020 --> 00:28:19.800 Unless it's because she's contaminated with the Morax, and she's the queen. 00:28:19.840 --> 00:28:35.820 I just think it's because she knows what a woman is capable of, even if she realises what obstacles there are in the way, whereas King James possibly doesn't even think that women are capable of. 00:28:36.900 --> 00:28:39.880 A woman would not be capable of being the witchfinder general. 00:28:41.259 --> 00:28:43.360 That would be my guess on that. 00:28:43.540 --> 00:28:47.120 But he is primed on what to expect on the paper. 00:28:47.580 --> 00:28:48.600 But I take your point about her. 00:28:48.760 --> 00:28:49.940 I'm not sure that she is. 00:28:50.140 --> 00:28:52.520 And I unfortunately have only had a chance to watch this one once. 00:28:52.700 --> 00:28:55.380 So I didn't go back and look at that. 00:28:55.460 --> 00:28:57.220 It kind of nagged me at the time. 00:28:58.040 --> 00:29:02.040 So I have a question about the timing of this. 00:29:03.140 --> 00:29:08.460 Again, King James is not one of the big ones that we get any info on, 00:29:08.760 --> 00:29:13.520 despite the colonization of the Americas started under his watch. 00:29:15.400 --> 00:29:19.640 but if I had been reading King James's history from Wikipedia, 00:29:20.320 --> 00:29:22.760 which I may have done before this podcast, 00:29:23.340 --> 00:29:26.260 I would have bet dollars to donuts this occurred in 1599. 00:29:27.760 --> 00:29:33.340 And the reason is, so a lot of what we saw on camera seemed to be fairly accurate. 00:29:33.400 --> 00:29:34.980 I don't know that he was quite secamp, 00:29:35.380 --> 00:29:41.400 but certainly people of the time used some phrases like, 00:29:41.740 --> 00:29:44.500 after the reign of King Elizabeth, we have Queen James. 00:29:46.260 --> 00:29:53.800 um i i attributed to raleigh sir walter to walter raleigh um there there's definitely some um 00:29:54.280 --> 00:29:58.480 there's definitely some historical evidence that he may have i don't know that he was quite as 00:29:58.800 --> 00:30:05.320 carry-on witch hunts as he was in this one but um uh you know it wasn't they weren't shying away 00:30:05.320 --> 00:30:13.659 from but but in 1599 so in 1597 king james wrote a book called demonology um he was he was a bit of 00:30:13.500 --> 00:30:18.200 a scholar. When he had gotten married, and he did get married, he had a ton of kids, even a bunch 00:30:18.320 --> 00:30:28.140 that survived. He had to go to Europe to pick up his bride because storms, and this is prior to 1597, 00:30:28.600 --> 00:30:34.140 and it was believed that the storms were caused by witches, and there were witch trials, and this is 00:30:34.260 --> 00:30:39.619 kind of apparently where he got into this thing, because he was convinced for years that Scottish 00:30:39.640 --> 00:30:45.160 witches were trying to send storms to kill him um he was educated he was a scholar he wrote this 00:30:45.160 --> 00:30:50.260 book on demonology about about witchcraft and things to look and and whatnot but but accounts 00:30:50.500 --> 00:30:57.240 put him at 1599 he became a lot more skeptical than he had previously been and started demanding 00:30:57.760 --> 00:31:06.600 less contrived proof of witches and that would fit really well with this date i love that that's a 00:31:06.520 --> 00:31:09.540 That's a lovely little piece of the jigsaw. 00:31:09.740 --> 00:31:12.780 If only he'd been king of England in 1599. 00:31:13.860 --> 00:31:14.760 He was king of Scotland. 00:31:15.440 --> 00:31:18.920 And the Pendle, yeah, James VI, I think. 00:31:19.240 --> 00:31:20.320 And then the Pendle. 00:31:20.330 --> 00:31:21.620 James VI of Scotland, James I of England. 00:31:21.960 --> 00:31:24.300 Yeah, he would have been James VI at the time. 00:31:24.680 --> 00:31:27.460 And the Pendle witches didn't occur until 1612, 00:31:28.070 --> 00:31:30.320 which they seem to make reference to as being, 00:31:30.500 --> 00:31:33.520 and Wikipedia for this episode puts this as 1612, 00:31:33.640 --> 00:31:34.880 but nobody mentioned that date. 00:31:35.080 --> 00:31:35.900 So I have no idea. 00:31:36.000 --> 00:31:38.760 but obviously he was king of England because they call him that. 00:31:38.820 --> 00:31:40.040 He's going back to London and all. 00:31:41.160 --> 00:31:42.700 Yeah, I didn't know about that. 00:31:42.920 --> 00:31:49.340 But darn, I read that and I'm like, wow, this writer really was, oh, they goofed. 00:31:51.280 --> 00:31:52.640 Oh, darn it, they goofed. 00:31:54.399 --> 00:32:00.700 But it's interesting because he genuinely, he himself personally helped torture 00:32:00.850 --> 00:32:04.160 and oversaw the death of people who were accused of witches. 00:32:04.440 --> 00:32:09.380 He genuinely had that fervor at some point in his life. 00:32:10.280 --> 00:32:11.620 He definitely was... 00:32:12.440 --> 00:32:15.260 Everything we saw here, at least at some point along the way, 00:32:15.620 --> 00:32:18.020 is completely believable with King James. 00:32:18.780 --> 00:32:21.760 So, I mean, I'm kind of suitably impressed. 00:32:22.210 --> 00:32:25.180 Even if they only got their history from Wikipedia. 00:32:26.760 --> 00:32:28.520 Except they didn't look at the dates very closely. 00:32:28.570 --> 00:32:30.239 But, I mean, it was... 00:32:31.360 --> 00:32:33.960 If you check Joy Wilkinson's Twitter, 00:32:34.200 --> 00:32:41.280 you'll see there's four or five books on the witch trials that she read in order to research this. 00:32:41.540 --> 00:32:48.700 There was something in one of the articles on Pendle about King James wanted results 00:32:49.360 --> 00:32:55.620 and the people who were overseeing the trial weren't quite sure how to curry favor with him, 00:32:56.260 --> 00:33:03.780 whether they wanted him to torture them for confessions or whether he wanted more accurate evidence. 00:33:04.420 --> 00:33:08.940 or they didn't know, but that their whole point is they wanted to curry favor rather than they 00:33:09.060 --> 00:33:12.440 weren't so much concerned about, you know, obvious it's a foregone conclusion, they're witches, 00:33:12.940 --> 00:33:19.820 but how to go about it to please the king. It's fascinating. I mean, the whole concept is 00:33:20.120 --> 00:33:27.540 fascinating from a grim and morbid point of view. And so again, kind of cool to go look at this 00:33:27.680 --> 00:33:32.179 period of time and talk about it. But it's also interesting to then do a little, even just a 00:33:32.200 --> 00:33:39.100 little digging and you start going well dog dog on um uh that that bit about the switch to some 00:33:39.250 --> 00:33:44.020 more skeptical though really i i should i should have looked to see if somebody changed wikipedia 00:33:44.340 --> 00:33:49.220 recently like after this episode it's like why did you pick 1599 but that they have some 00:33:49.380 --> 00:33:54.080 documentation of something after that where he wrote to someone and basically was saying 00:33:54.620 --> 00:34:01.539 something to the effect of uh i've found that most of this stuff is is not true basically so 00:34:01.560 --> 00:34:04.700 as opposed to, you know, like, witches, let's go. 00:34:05.020 --> 00:34:07.720 There was a sort of bit of drawback 00:34:07.910 --> 00:34:10.080 that was a little more nuanced 00:34:10.610 --> 00:34:13.159 than what we saw here in that respect. 00:34:14.500 --> 00:34:16.800 Although, I mean, I thought Alan Cummings' performance 00:34:17.200 --> 00:34:19.139 as James was absolutely terrific. 00:34:19.500 --> 00:34:21.179 It is a bit carry-on film, though. 00:34:22.220 --> 00:34:23.040 I don't think so. 00:34:23.139 --> 00:34:26.560 I thought it was very, very nicely judged. 00:34:26.690 --> 00:34:28.379 I mean, we didn't get an ooo-er or anything 00:34:29.010 --> 00:34:31.240 when he saw Ryan, but yeah. 00:34:32.100 --> 00:34:33.200 I don't know 00:34:33.500 --> 00:34:35.639 I just thought that was 00:34:36.429 --> 00:34:37.100 rather well done 00:34:38.679 --> 00:34:39.720 I genuinely 00:34:40.220 --> 00:34:40.540 don't know 00:34:41.290 --> 00:34:43.540 the scene when he is sitting there talking with the doctor 00:34:43.540 --> 00:34:44.800 and the doctor is chained up 00:34:45.580 --> 00:34:46.440 was a great scene 00:34:46.980 --> 00:34:48.320 that was a great scene 00:34:48.679 --> 00:34:50.000 and he seemed like 00:34:52.280 --> 00:34:54.020 a person on a caricature 00:34:54.290 --> 00:34:54.860 at that point 00:34:55.100 --> 00:34:56.780 prior to that he seemed like a caricature 00:34:56.980 --> 00:34:59.099 and they all object yourself to themselves 00:34:59.120 --> 00:35:02.740 and, you know, running around the forest in a mask and all that stuff. 00:35:02.840 --> 00:35:04.680 It's like, this is a cartoon King James. 00:35:05.010 --> 00:35:07.720 And I know everyone seems to love Alan Cummings' performance on it, 00:35:07.750 --> 00:35:11.180 and I'm sure he gave exactly the performance that they wanted, 00:35:11.650 --> 00:35:12.840 but it's a little bit of a caricature. 00:35:12.940 --> 00:35:16.520 In that one moment, you're looking at it and you're saying, 00:35:16.960 --> 00:35:20.820 you know, he's been challenged and he can change. 00:35:20.880 --> 00:35:24.400 Of course, he doesn't in a way, but at least not then. 00:35:25.320 --> 00:35:26.940 Or even at the end because he kills the villain. 00:35:27.380 --> 00:35:28.000 Well, I don't know. 00:35:28.160 --> 00:35:33.060 I mean, that's one of the things that I thought was slightly a missed opportunity in this. 00:35:33.220 --> 00:35:37.560 I mean, I think coming performance was not what I expected. 00:35:37.690 --> 00:35:41.440 I thought he was going to give much more of a cartoonish performance, 00:35:41.490 --> 00:35:47.120 a real sort of, I am invincible kind of version of King James, 00:35:47.860 --> 00:35:50.700 who had no depth, who had no seriousness. 00:35:51.320 --> 00:35:57.860 And if there was an act being put on here, it felt like it was the character's performance. 00:35:58.660 --> 00:36:05.900 as in what is expected of him as a king and that in that scene where you have that exchange between 00:36:06.370 --> 00:36:12.500 him and the doctor there is as you say there's a there is a person there and what we actually get 00:36:12.500 --> 00:36:19.800 is there's an inquiring mind an appetite to discover some sort of truth behind the yeah okay 00:36:20.020 --> 00:36:24.439 so there's an act there is an actual mask it may be laying it on a bit thick but that's the sense 00:36:24.460 --> 00:36:30.660 you get about how how he behaves as a king and I loved that I thought that was really really 00:36:31.240 --> 00:36:35.580 interesting and effective what I wasn't sure about well actually now I'm not sure it was 00:36:35.900 --> 00:36:39.500 so much of a missed opportunity because the more I think about it the more I think it was there but 00:36:39.720 --> 00:36:44.940 I guess I'm thinking about current parallels in terms of how you deal with someone who is 00:36:45.460 --> 00:36:53.200 essentially a despot and who has some pretty strange ideas and whose appetites you know all 00:36:53.220 --> 00:36:58.260 the stuff about body parts and all that kind of thing this is not a good man whatever whatever 00:36:58.330 --> 00:37:03.700 you find in that scene where he actually where the doctor almost seems to be getting through to him 00:37:03.980 --> 00:37:12.140 she's getting through to someone who who may be curious who may be um who may have a an interest 00:37:12.170 --> 00:37:17.838 in the world around him but it's not it's not in any sense a kind of benevolent interest he's not 00:37:18.300 --> 00:37:24.380 he's not looking to be a philanthropic king of any sort and and there is this there is fairly 00:37:24.860 --> 00:37:32.200 i mean guy fox thing aside i understand he was reasonably okay yeah i'm not i'm not saying he 00:37:32.260 --> 00:37:39.580 was a bad king all right it it's it's more like why was he a good person was he a good person 00:37:39.980 --> 00:37:45.079 and the sense you get in this and i i don't think it's necessarily historically inaccurate 00:37:45.100 --> 00:37:52.200 it the sense you get in this is that he's probably not a very nice person and he doesn't have a he 00:37:52.320 --> 00:38:00.160 doesn't have a kind of moral guide to what are good acts of government as opposed to just keeping 00:38:00.190 --> 00:38:05.640 the peace doing being in other words being incredibly incredibly pragmatic but obviously 00:38:06.240 --> 00:38:12.700 watching this in 2018 the idea of of having someone who is a bit a bit weird in the head 00:38:12.660 --> 00:38:26.500 OK, let's not beat about the bush, who has a very, very much greater sense of their own performance than they do of any kind of moral core in terms of how they should use the power that they have somehow acquired. 00:38:27.500 --> 00:38:29.860 It it all seems terribly relevant. 00:38:31.460 --> 00:38:37.880 yeah and i mean yeah it is relevant and and again does it fit here with king james because 00:38:38.840 --> 00:38:47.180 historically king james even though his regents and tutors had tried to inform him of the ways of 00:38:48.050 --> 00:38:54.580 um the the balance between say parliament and and and the king being a little more towards 00:38:54.700 --> 00:39:01.140 parliament he he later as he got into his religious fervor um he became a very strong advocate of 00:39:01.480 --> 00:39:06.480 the king is god's chosen i do what i want yeah and if it's if it's wrong god will sort me out 00:39:06.860 --> 00:39:12.540 but no one else will also also seems quite relevant and the the interesting thing about it 00:39:12.780 --> 00:39:18.259 the thing that felt to me like maybe it was a slightly missed opportunity is how do you deal 00:39:18.280 --> 00:39:25.180 with someone like that because obviously there are the options of either on the one hand having 00:39:25.360 --> 00:39:31.780 nothing to do with them denouncing everything they say and do when they say and do terrible things 00:39:31.970 --> 00:39:37.420 and the the other way not looking at any republicans but the other way is to kind of say well 00:39:37.670 --> 00:39:44.379 this is this is a pretty bad person who's saying and doing some pretty bad things but if i can 00:39:44.400 --> 00:39:50.900 if I can keep them on side, if I can have a word in their ear and make them a little bit less bad, 00:39:51.040 --> 00:39:58.240 however little that is, then at least, you know, that that's something. And that seems to me that 00:39:58.390 --> 00:40:05.400 the kind of approach that was going on here, that the doctor was willing to deal with King James, 00:40:05.810 --> 00:40:10.680 because I guess because he's the man on the spot or because Web of Time or however you want to look 00:40:10.660 --> 00:40:17.620 at it and so she is dead set on convincing him and then ultimately when they're facing a common foe 00:40:17.880 --> 00:40:23.500 she is using the fact that they have a common foe to say you know come on let's let's defeat them 00:40:23.820 --> 00:40:28.740 and at the end of it even though they're obviously not bosom pals and the doctor's not saying hey 00:40:28.920 --> 00:40:35.339 Jamie come along for a ride in the TARDIS there's a sense of almost affection a bit of camaraderie 00:40:35.540 --> 00:40:39.280 between them as they walk through the woods to the TARDIS. 00:40:39.530 --> 00:40:42.100 And I didn't know if that was right or not, 00:40:42.380 --> 00:40:46.040 because at the end of it all, he's obviously still not a good guy. 00:40:46.380 --> 00:40:48.700 Yeah, yeah, I can see that. 00:40:48.930 --> 00:40:49.580 I can see that. 00:40:50.380 --> 00:40:50.660 It is. 00:40:51.340 --> 00:40:54.820 Having said that, having thought, having rethought. 00:40:55.200 --> 00:40:56.020 I will say this. 00:40:56.060 --> 00:40:58.580 It did feel like when they're walking through the thing all pally at the end, 00:40:58.690 --> 00:40:59.140 I did. 00:40:59.440 --> 00:41:04.680 Well, that seems remarkably, wow, we've gone past a point here, 00:41:04.780 --> 00:41:10.420 now we're buds it did seem a little bit much yeah yeah and and that and that i think is the 00:41:10.640 --> 00:41:16.720 danger of having a slightly cartoonish king james is that you don't get the you you see the dark 00:41:16.940 --> 00:41:21.140 side and then you forget about it and you and you mustn't forget about it you can't normalize 00:41:21.440 --> 00:41:26.140 these things but i'm not i'm not sure that i'm not sure that it is a huge missed opportunity 00:41:26.400 --> 00:41:30.539 because having talked it all through i kind of think a lot of it is there in the episode 00:41:30.540 --> 00:41:32.920 it may not have been spelled out 00:41:32.990 --> 00:41:35.040 but it may not have needed to be 00:41:35.980 --> 00:41:37.420 it kind of raised the questions 00:41:38.080 --> 00:41:38.960 it did, I mean 00:41:39.180 --> 00:41:40.960 I mentioned them because it raised the questions 00:41:41.110 --> 00:41:42.760 in my head and maybe that's all it needed 00:41:43.280 --> 00:41:45.260 to do without getting in the way of the story 00:41:45.560 --> 00:41:46.960 okay, well, let's talk about 00:41:46.970 --> 00:41:48.640 the least interesting part about the story 00:41:49.020 --> 00:41:50.240 the aliens 00:41:50.780 --> 00:41:51.560 the mud people 00:41:53.260 --> 00:41:54.340 I'm just going to throw 00:41:54.660 --> 00:41:56.440 out my questions here all at once 00:41:56.590 --> 00:41:59.059 because they don't deserve a point by point attack 00:41:59.840 --> 00:42:05.280 it's unclear to me why the mud didn't overtake becca immediately instead of waiting months 00:42:05.700 --> 00:42:13.400 of a growing creeping infection one why did she have the axe by her bed was it because she was 00:42:13.720 --> 00:42:20.600 afraid that mud people were gonna come for her was it because she was gonna go chop down the 00:42:20.760 --> 00:42:27.220 rest of the tree because she's under the control of the mud people did she kill the women in the 00:42:27.060 --> 00:42:32.960 village so that they would get buried so that they would be available to become the mud zombies 00:42:33.560 --> 00:42:42.140 was the whole thing don't forget that she thought that they were satan all along correct so i i'm 00:42:42.260 --> 00:42:49.420 unclear because what she did seems to be exactly what she needed to do to free the aliens as if 00:42:49.450 --> 00:42:55.199 the aliens were guiding her actions she but her words were but she was she wasn't doing it 00:42:55.220 --> 00:43:00.420 intentionally in the sense that if she thought they were satan which i think she did what she 00:43:00.420 --> 00:43:05.640 was trying to do was double down on what she believed the good and righteous thing to do 00:43:05.840 --> 00:43:13.840 which was to drive out satan wherever he appears so if there are witches in the village then she 00:43:14.040 --> 00:43:22.020 needs to god save save their souls what's the axe for i mean an axe is i don't i don't i don't i 00:43:21.940 --> 00:43:28.220 don't know I mean it question could be it could be the mud people at that point it could be because 00:43:28.620 --> 00:43:34.160 by the time the doctor and her companions arrive on the scene she's gone beyond what I'm describing 00:43:34.740 --> 00:43:40.560 so trying to do God's work in an effort to overcome Satan and she's she's actually in the 00:43:40.750 --> 00:43:47.519 process of committing a murder in order to cover up something she doesn't want to know and that's 00:43:47.540 --> 00:43:51.840 From her point of view, that's fundamentally different because she knows that's wrong. 00:43:52.030 --> 00:43:54.660 Whereas previously she thought what she was doing was right. 00:43:55.220 --> 00:44:06.080 Well, OK, so can you could we make an argument that that says you're doing what you think is right, but you also have an alien intelligence inside your body? 00:44:06.480 --> 00:44:18.680 Could it be convincing her that there, in other words, could it be putting the thoughts in her head that Satan is in the village that she needs to go out and do these things? 00:44:18.960 --> 00:44:30.260 And I just couldn't tell whether or not we were dealing with a true nut up until the point when basically it started creeping out of her eyes. 00:44:30.540 --> 00:44:41.880 Or whether we had been dealing with an alien agent, witting or unwitting, that was actually doing work specifically to the alien's advantage the whole time. 00:44:42.040 --> 00:44:47.780 And it's also unclear that anyone knew anything about the mud zombies until the whole army rose up. 00:44:48.060 --> 00:44:55.680 towards it's also clear becca knows more than she's letting on yeah so ah i i don't know um i i feel 00:44:55.760 --> 00:45:00.300 it was kind of you know it's it's a little bit glossed over i mean i don't care very much because 00:45:00.300 --> 00:45:06.080 i didn't like that as i wasn't interested in that aspect of the episode at all the only the only 00:45:06.240 --> 00:45:12.019 thing that bothers me slightly is the idea that if it was the mud creature in becca that was driving 00:45:12.040 --> 00:45:18.080 her to suspect satan in all of these places well that seems it doesn't it doesn't quite it doesn't 00:45:18.080 --> 00:45:23.820 quite diminish what historically went on because obviously there were we know there were other 00:45:24.200 --> 00:45:31.880 witch trials in other places that were equally awful and presumably not alien driven but on the 00:45:31.880 --> 00:45:37.100 other hand shouldn't shouldn't we face up to the to the fact that this this thing that is being 00:45:37.120 --> 00:45:43.600 portrayed on screen when it happened it happened not because of some alien mumbo jumbo it happened 00:45:43.820 --> 00:45:50.420 because humans did it obviously but we're definitely we're definitely human driven um 00:45:51.170 --> 00:45:55.840 but i just i don't know it did leave me with questions but i think it was because it wasn't 00:45:55.920 --> 00:45:59.900 really very well thought out i don't think that's what the story was about it was it was another 00:46:00.120 --> 00:46:07.080 opportunity to get us into the historical context and and so yes this was more integral to the plot 00:46:07.100 --> 00:46:12.300 But at the same time, it felt about as tacked on as Space Nazi did in Rosa. 00:46:12.720 --> 00:46:18.860 Not as bad as Demons of the Punjab, but about at the same level as Rosa. 00:46:19.040 --> 00:46:30.220 Yeah, perhaps. Space Nazi was a necessary part of the plot of Rosa, so it served a more indispensable function. 00:46:30.560 --> 00:46:32.480 Whereas I still think you could have had a... 00:46:33.240 --> 00:46:37.000 Although this was definitely part of the story they told, 00:46:37.560 --> 00:46:41.940 they could have had a not very different story about witch trials 00:46:42.540 --> 00:46:44.160 that didn't involve any alien element. 00:46:44.640 --> 00:46:47.300 And I think I would have probably enjoyed it more. 00:46:47.560 --> 00:46:48.960 But I enjoyed this. 00:46:49.120 --> 00:46:50.520 I'm just going to put this out there. 00:46:50.880 --> 00:46:55.000 Aliens, if you're going to set up a prison, don't disguise it as a tree. 00:46:56.720 --> 00:47:01.520 That's the most nonsensical part of this entire thing. 00:47:04.020 --> 00:47:08.080 Just make it a big block and bury it so no one sees it. 00:47:08.220 --> 00:47:10.100 I mean, you get the technology to don't make a tree. 00:47:10.260 --> 00:47:11.960 Someone's going to chop that down eventually. 00:47:12.360 --> 00:47:13.160 Well, maybe. 00:47:13.600 --> 00:47:14.820 Lots of trees don't get chopped down. 00:47:15.180 --> 00:47:16.380 But yes, eventually, I suppose. 00:47:17.600 --> 00:47:18.440 Lots of trees do get chopped down. 00:47:18.440 --> 00:47:19.020 I've been to England. 00:47:20.200 --> 00:47:24.320 Well, yes, if you go far enough into the Industrial Revolution, yes, 00:47:24.640 --> 00:47:25.660 lots of trees get chopped down. 00:47:26.720 --> 00:47:35.440 um yeah anyhow i don't know that i have anything else on this episode i want to i want to pick up 00:47:35.440 --> 00:47:41.020 on one other thing i think i i felt was insufficiently explored in in this one um 00:47:41.580 --> 00:47:46.140 which really follows on from what i was just saying about making the point that humans did 00:47:46.300 --> 00:47:51.180 this and it's to come back to this idea of the role of the bystanders who as you say 00:47:51.740 --> 00:47:57.440 have a perfectly logical position in the sense of if they were to stick their neck out or put 00:47:57.560 --> 00:48:02.520 their head above the parapet, however you want to put it, then they make targets of themselves. 00:48:02.750 --> 00:48:07.340 They could be next in line to be accused of being a witch, which is one way of looking at it. 00:48:07.640 --> 00:48:15.680 Another way of looking at it is that as a group, they could take collective action that would put 00:48:15.700 --> 00:48:23.080 a stop to it. And in particular, the kind of the deciding piece of evidence I'm going to point to 00:48:23.200 --> 00:48:28.720 in terms of what actually are these bystanders really? What are their true motivations here? 00:48:29.140 --> 00:48:35.020 What genuinely are their fears and desires? Are the fact that they are having a weekly party with 00:48:35.140 --> 00:48:41.359 apple bobbing every time there is a witch dunking? I don't think they want to stop it. I think they 00:48:41.380 --> 00:48:48.320 are part of a a spectacle they don't want it's true absolutely true they don't want to be the 00:48:48.420 --> 00:48:54.180 one getting dunked but it's a natural it's also a natural part of the human condition that you 00:48:54.320 --> 00:49:01.380 don't think it's ever going to be you and so you you you go along for the spectacle and you go 00:49:01.560 --> 00:49:06.640 along for the party and the apple bobbing and the rest of it and i felt maybe the missed opportunity 00:49:06.660 --> 00:49:12.300 was the their culpability wasn't explored again it comes back to the relevance of of this thing 00:49:12.420 --> 00:49:21.320 of the fact that a a bad bad governor a bad squire or whatever the female equivalent of a squire is 00:49:21.620 --> 00:49:27.540 um just as just as with a bad king or any other bad kind of head of state you might possibly think 00:49:27.760 --> 00:49:33.820 of who is in some way providing entertainment again if you can think of any parallels then 00:49:33.840 --> 00:49:40.660 we kind of all become complicit in becoming just spectators of that entertainment rather than 00:49:40.840 --> 00:49:46.460 thinking about whether this is something that we should be complicit in that we should be allowing 00:49:46.640 --> 00:49:52.460 to have and i kind of thought the the whole of the village would basically given a pass by the 00:49:52.560 --> 00:49:59.940 doctor and her companions when i'm not sure they deserved it so you know the term bread and circuses 00:49:59.960 --> 00:50:07.140 came to mind um but um so that's a that's interesting because it does come so close at 00:50:07.140 --> 00:50:11.420 the beginning of the episode it's easy to forget that yes they seem to be having a little bit of a 00:50:12.040 --> 00:50:17.240 weekly fair and i was like oh this is this is fun actually village life is like a ren fair 00:50:17.600 --> 00:50:26.060 and um and then they ring the bell the gong the gong or whatever it was and everyone's mood changes 00:50:26.440 --> 00:50:28.180 suddenly it became somber and it's like 00:50:28.600 --> 00:50:30.840 when she calls we have to go 00:50:31.080 --> 00:50:33.160 and I didn't know what to make of that 00:50:33.520 --> 00:50:33.660 honestly 00:50:34.920 --> 00:50:36.940 did the landlord command 00:50:36.950 --> 00:50:39.140 that you have a party 00:50:39.600 --> 00:50:41.280 all day before the witch 00:50:41.600 --> 00:50:41.920 dunking 00:50:43.400 --> 00:50:44.460 I didn't know what 00:50:44.740 --> 00:50:45.980 to take of it 00:50:48.700 --> 00:50:51.300 the sense I got was that it was like 00:50:51.540 --> 00:50:53.260 there's a requirement to take 00:50:53.440 --> 00:50:54.540 this seriously 00:50:55.260 --> 00:51:01.220 as in it's a it's a religious ritual so you don't want to be caught laughing at the devil 00:51:01.400 --> 00:51:05.940 that kind of thing could be could be um and you're right they could have they could have 00:51:06.320 --> 00:51:14.300 rose up and that did cross my mind again not understanding the mindset of 16th and or 17th 00:51:14.440 --> 00:51:21.480 century all right hold up jacobian um era uh peasants would they consider rising up against 00:51:21.500 --> 00:51:25.540 the landlord and slitting her throat in the night it didn't look like it would be much of a problem 00:51:26.040 --> 00:51:32.300 well i i mean in the grand scheme of things well if you consider any any one particular individual 00:51:32.880 --> 00:51:38.540 as as you were saying the motivation is very strongly towards saying i don't i don't want 00:51:38.710 --> 00:51:44.900 to stick my neck out and if you were to try and act collectively how would you know who to trust 00:51:45.140 --> 00:51:51.460 so you know think of life behind the iron curtain think of the stasi and your neighbors informing 00:51:51.480 --> 00:51:52.880 and so on and so forth. 00:51:53.200 --> 00:51:55.360 So there's a whole lot of game theory at play there 00:51:55.500 --> 00:51:59.040 that makes me feel that it's not obvious 00:51:59.740 --> 00:52:01.860 that any of us in that situation 00:52:02.240 --> 00:52:04.040 would be brave enough to do the right thing. 00:52:04.400 --> 00:52:05.660 But I guess my question is, 00:52:05.940 --> 00:52:08.060 is anyone there actually interested 00:52:08.450 --> 00:52:09.500 in doing the right thing? 00:52:10.060 --> 00:52:11.740 And that wasn't explored. 00:52:12.120 --> 00:52:12.500 Not at all. 00:52:12.790 --> 00:52:14.200 In fact, most of the rest of the village 00:52:14.770 --> 00:52:15.440 after that scene, 00:52:16.000 --> 00:52:17.940 well, they really weren't in it anyway. 00:52:18.500 --> 00:52:20.540 But, you know, it's down to the granddaughter. 00:52:20.960 --> 00:52:21.100 Yeah. 00:52:21.700 --> 00:52:27.480 as as the stand-in and she can't stand in as the village because she's lost somebody close to her 00:52:27.740 --> 00:52:33.440 absolutely and and therefore she's she's at risk and she's she's an outsider already yeah i don't 00:52:33.440 --> 00:52:38.340 know i have an answer for that i don't think the writer had an answer for it well it just struck 00:52:38.340 --> 00:52:43.020 me as being a missed opportunity i would have liked to have gone a little bit more into the 00:52:43.160 --> 00:52:49.640 culpability of the of the mob the mob mentality in those scenes but it just wasn't explored yeah 00:52:50.400 --> 00:52:54.320 All right, well, in that case, I don't know if you have anything else. 00:52:55.360 --> 00:52:56.360 No, I don't think I do. 00:52:56.640 --> 00:53:02.180 I believe the next episode is something like They Take You Away. 00:53:02.680 --> 00:53:03.580 I don't know. 00:53:03.640 --> 00:53:05.660 I haven't been following the name. 00:53:05.700 --> 00:53:06.540 I'm being delighted. 00:53:06.700 --> 00:53:07.320 The name doesn't. 00:53:07.320 --> 00:53:08.160 I'm being surprised each week. 00:53:08.560 --> 00:53:10.660 It doesn't tell you much, I have to say. 00:53:10.980 --> 00:53:11.760 Unless, you know. 00:53:11.760 --> 00:53:12.780 Well, nor does the trailer. 00:53:12.940 --> 00:53:18.740 They Take You Away of the Daleks might be a tip-off, but it's not called that. 00:53:21.099 --> 00:53:23.860 So, anyway, Simon, thank you for joining me. 00:53:24.040 --> 00:53:25.080 It's a pleasure, as always. 00:53:25.920 --> 00:53:30.520 Listeners, I do hope you'll join us all again next time on Fusion Patrol. 00:53:34.780 --> 00:53:38.220 You've been listening to Fusion Patrol, a listener-supported podcast. 00:53:38.970 --> 00:53:46.340 Find out how you can be a sponsor and get early access to all episodes and more at patreon.com slash fusion patrol. 00:53:47.960 --> 00:53:50.980 Come join the conversation on Facebook or Twitter. 00:53:53.060 --> 00:53:55.780 All episodes are available at FusionPatrol.com. 00:53:57.040 --> 00:54:00.160 Our music is Fight the Future by Amber Wolf. 00:54:01.520 --> 00:54:04.040 This has been a Lone Locust production. 00:54:31.700 --> 00:54:33.100 End.