WEBVTT

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you're listening to fusion patrol a listener supported podcast

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each week we take a single episode of a science fiction tv series movie or

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audio and overanalyze it to within an inch of its life welcome to the discussion

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Hello and welcome to another episode of Fusion Patrol.

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I'm Eugene.

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And I'm Simon.

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And tonight we are looking at the 2025 Doctor Who season, episode 6,

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the Interstellar Song Contest.

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Episode synopsis.

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The Doctor and Belinda arrive for their final Vindicator reading

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at the Intergalactic Song Contest, hosted by some unknown frozen guy who appears to be a Monty

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Python interpretation of the sparmiest human being ever to exist. And they get sucked into

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watching this, willingly, unlike some of us. Kid, a hellion, arrives, takes over the space station,

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and ejects the audience, including the Doctor and the TARDIS, into space, where corpses of the

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100,000 people in attendance freeze solid.

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Mrs. Flood is there too, and she's also frozen.

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Belinda survives, but she is distraught.

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A vision of Susan appears to the doctor, and he unfreezes himself and uses a glitter cannon to reach an airlock.

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Kid, the Hellion, plans to use a device to kill the three trillion people watching the contest because he doesn't like their sponsor,

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a company that makes poppy-flavored honey.

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Could have been worse.

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Their sponsor could have been Disney.

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Also, a lot of people hate the Hellions because they've got horns.

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The doctor thinks Belinda is dead.

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Belinda thinks the doctor is dead.

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And clarity ensues as the doctor goes after Kid in a very angry fashion.

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He blips the sonic remote a couple times, destroying the controls, the bomb, the weapons.

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And then he proceeds to torture Kid.

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Oops, Time Lord Vindictivus.

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There must be a regeneration coming.

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Belinda stops him.

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They bring all the frozen corpses back and revive them.

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And then Graham Norton tells him that the Earth was destroyed the very day Belinda left.

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So they go there and the TARDIS blows up.

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Also, Mrs. Flood is somehow the absolute last person saved at the space station.

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And she was frozen too long and regenerates.

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No, she bi-generates.

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So now there's a Ronnie and the Ronnie.

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Hashtag, it's never the Ronnie.

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All right, give us your first thoughts.

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Well, it's deux points for me.

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That's a Eurovision reference or French thing, I assume, in some way.

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That's it.

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I'm not actually going to give it deux points, but it's not nil points.

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I'm rating this one pretty highly.

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I enjoyed this one a lot.

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Is that two points?

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Twelve points.

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Is that twelve points?

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Okay.

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Out of a thousand?

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Out of twelve, I think.

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I'm not a Eurovision expert.

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but I know nothing about Eurovision, but those are the scores as I understand them.

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Oh, you understand more about Eurovision than me. I'm going to lead with a disclaimer.

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And, you know, long-time listeners of this podcast, you know this, but I'm going to

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reiterate a couple things that you should know. These are genuine conversations that Simon and

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I are having or I and the co-hosts are having. They are not scripted. They are not, you know,

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we don't share notes. It's, it's a, it's at least I can say for myself, it's me. And I would imagine

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that a long time listeners probably have assembled some sort of mental picture in their minds of what

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me personality is. But I will tell you, you know, some of it's a bit, some things are a bit

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performative. It's a podcast. You do kind of have to amp it up as if it were a show. So maybe,

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maybe you don't. So there's a couple things that I'm going to, because this episode lays bare a

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few problems I have. So I'm just going to, I'm just going to put them out there so that you can

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understand where I'm coming to. And these are lifelong things. For example, I don't give to,

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I'm going to use the word hoots about clothing.

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I don't really care what I'm wearing.

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I don't pay any attention to what other people wear.

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If I do pay attention, it's kind of like when we were at when I was running a summer camp.

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I never knew the kids names, but if I did know their names, it was not good.

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They were bad.

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It's like I only know the problems.

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And it's the only time I notice people's clothes are when they're awful.

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I don't like bright, gaudy colors.

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I don't like costumes.

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I will never be a costumer.

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I hate crowds, unless they're crowds of puppies.

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That's fine.

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I do love music, but my preference is always music without humans ruining it.

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I hate people who are...

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You mean like a bird song or whale song?

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You like the hippie records of the humpback?

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I did like the doopey-dippity-doo-dee-doo thing in this.

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but i hate i hate to break it to you but it was a human that wrote that i know it was but it's not

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and it was probably human singing it too but and the and the final thing is that i i absolutely

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detest people who are overly familiar like waitresses who call you hun or doctors who call

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you babes yeah so the the eurovision which of course this is just a pastiche of is like

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hell on earth for me. There is nothing you could do to induce me to watch Eurovision. It would be

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like it would be like scraping sandpaper on my eyes and my flesh and my nerves raw. I have no.

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I mean, I truly, truly detest this kind of I hate song contests, dance contests, pageants, parades,

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you name it. Those things are terrible to me. They're they're just like, get me away from here

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as fast as humanly possible.

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So this story has dug itself

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into a 50-foot hole

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before I ever started watching it.

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Okay?

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Just gonna say,

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it would be damn near impossible

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to dig out of that hole.

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That said, eh.

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It's like,

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I mean, it could have been worse.

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It could have been much, much worse.

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That's about the best I got for it.

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It was like, eh.

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There were really bits of it

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that just had me

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You know, like I was in a room full of ants crawling all over the place.

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I know, but that's about the best I got.

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I can say about this episode is it's not it's not going to be up there on my rewatch ever.

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I mean, I obviously will someday, but because I'll even watch Space Babies again someday, probably.

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Well, I've watched Web Planet more than once.

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Yeah, I've watched Web Planet more than once.

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that's not worse.

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It's like,

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but yeah,

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it's not good.

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I mean,

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I'm not going to,

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you know,

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I can appreciate that they,

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they swung and they missed,

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but yeah.

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So I'm guessing you liked this episode based on your,

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on your rating.

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Yes.

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I mean,

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yes,

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yes,

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I did.

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I,

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I wasn't without its problems,

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which is why I didn't think it would,

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I didn't feel like it was,

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it was a douze point thing,

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but overall this felt to me like the kind of,

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thing that you could have seen in rtd era one and it would have it's got the it's got the kind of

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pace it's got the kind of action the emotion the humor and the kind of surprises i guess that

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they're not all of them delightful surprises that sort of typified typified what what the kind of

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thing that he was doing first time around and obviously this is the the the only credited

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writer on this is juno dawson so it's not it's not that it's not that it's an rtd script but it's

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it's the kind of thing that you know he's he's given her the the brief which i believe was

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eurovision meets die hard which she's kind of pretty much delivered on so i mean the nearest

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thing for me to this i guess in the in the moffa era which as you know i kind of venerate would be

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the rings of akatan or akatan i can't remember how to say it wasn't good either it it it didn't

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it didn't really it didn't hit the mark and you know i think that's because this is rtd absolutely

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100 playing to his strengths yeah i yeah certainly playing to him yes i guess i i hit my notes they're

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in no logical order here although i have here at the top the ice you put in my heart i don't think

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it's going to go away i mean that's so that's so david tenets on his way out it's not even funny

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It did feel very Time Lord Victorious to me, except that that did kind of build up over the four seasons. By the time you get to Waters of Mars, there has been this side of
Tennant's performance that RTD is kind of pulling out and actually drawing attention to how problematic it is, I guess.

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and maybe you see it first in school reunion or somewhere around there so it's that and that's

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what early early in the second tenant no first first first tenant season yeah possibly so it's

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you know the seed the seeds are sown early on i don't think he's done that here no he hasn't

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i think i think it comes out of nowhere and for that reason it feels much more dinosaurs on a

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spaceship to me than than waters of mars everything everything in this season and last season feels

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like it comes out of nowhere the stories are structured that way they they just they just

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throw stuff at you without any kind of so no i i i don't know if this is because of the the truncated

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seasons i you know i'm i'm beginning to think that we can treat last season and this season as one

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in a sort of extended way.

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But yeah, no, there just is,

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this stuff pops up out of nowhere

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and it's just kind of,

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I wouldn't say throwaway,

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but yeah, I'm not happy on it.

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But I am kind of looking forward

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to a regeneration in two-year-old generation.

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God, no.

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Why?

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Why?

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Okay, maybe bi-generation

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is a function of this parallel non-existent universe that we're going to collapse back

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on ourselves and find ourselves back at the moment of Jodie Whittaker's regeneration.

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Because, well, let's take Mavity. Let's go back to Mavity. They beat us over the head

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with Mavity in this episode. This is the episode that reminds you.

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Well, yes, but I mean, in, yeah, it's, it's saying it's still, it's still there and it

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needs to be fixed in case you'd forgotten about it. He's going to fix it.

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but that's what i think this may be optimism i think that is what's happening with the by

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generation like he can't keep doing these by generations he's by generated the rani because

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that still needs fixing that it's a result of whatever the toy maker did

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back in the giggle and but except he didn't do it that's gonna have to be undone that's the

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problem with this mavedy goes back before the giggle mavedy goes back before wild blue

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generation is the giggle. Yes, but I think it's part of this, whatever happened at that moment,

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because if Mavity has to be fixed, then the fix is something broke before the giggle. Something

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broke before Wild Blue Yonder. We're in some, and I'm beginning to wonder if what broke was when

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the 15th doctor, the 14th doctor appeared. 13th, 14th, I don't know. David Tennant, Mark II,

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appeared. I'm beginning to wonder if that's the point that has to be fixed back to. I can dream.

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I can dream. But or it could just be what people just think that was the that was the toy maker.

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It wasn't. Definitely wasn't. We still don't know what the whole wild blue yonder nonsense was about.

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You know, I mean, if that's if that goes nowhere.

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But yeah, this, no, the reason I say they're beating it over our head, they, they use Mavity

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and Mavitic and it's like what, eight times in this episode.

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Yeah, no, I'm, I'm absolutely in the past.

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It was, it was there to remind us that there is something that needs to be fixed.

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Fixed.

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In exactly, in exactly the same way that the, by generation was there to remind us that

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there is something that needs to be fixed.

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Oh yeah.

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There is something that needs to be fixed.

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Yeah. The, the piece, the pieces that he's putting in place, including the whole Mrs. Flood thing and Susan and everything are all being, you know, we're being tweaked
with them so that, so that we know that that's what's coming in the.

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There's way, way too much in the next step, two episodes. That's what we know.

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Well, exactly. Yeah.

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We absolutely know. I mean, we know Mel is in it. We know Susan's obviously going to be in it.

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The Ronnie's obviously going to be in it. If Mel's in it, then Unit must be in it.

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You know, Ruby's going to be in it. Conrad's going to be in it.

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It wouldn't surprise me if Donna doesn't show up, you know, to go back to the-

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It would surprise me if Donna shows up. I don't even know how they're going to fit in

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everyone you've mentioned already.

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Well, they're going to do it badly. That's how they're going to do it.

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And there's a distinct suggestion in this that Kid's going to be back.

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But yeah, that may not be setting up the next two episodes because I kind of think the next two episodes are all about paying off things that have been running through
since at least Gatwa bi-generated.

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I'm glad you didn't use the word promised.

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But anyway, I have the words here and I need to put them out there because if I don't get

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there first, Chekhov's Mavity.

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This is what was in this.

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We got up.

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But it's not that.

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It's not that.

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That was Wild Blue Yonder.

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This is getting to the end of the second act and making a big song and dance number about

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there's a gun.

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There's a gun on the mantelpiece.

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Yeah.

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I see you brought the gun in from the act one.

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Yes.

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Yeah.

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I'm sure I mentioned this before,

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but I'm going to just take another swipe at it because it was particularly

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sleaze egregious in this episode.

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I mentioned,

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I think it was last week that I do not like the new way.

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The sonic screwdriver just explodes locks as opposed to,

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I don't know,

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pointing it at it and kind of like, I don't know, sonicking them.

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Instead, it just explodes locks.

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In this episode, one click, it blows up locks.

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It blows up robot heads.

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It blows up Delta devices.

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It blows up guns.

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Just click, click, click.

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What do we even need the doctor for?

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What problem?

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I mean, the sonic screwdriver has become a magic wand.

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People were complaining about that years ago.

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What about now?

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It's just a remote freaking detonation device.

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It blows up anything he wants.

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Why didn't he just take care of the whole thing with that to start with?

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It's gotten stupid beyond belief.

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That was one of the things that was not meh about this episode for me.

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I don't think that's, I don't, I think a lot of the uses of the sonic screwdriver in this

00:16:59.840 --> 00:17:02.000
episode were him using it as a remote control.

00:17:02.740 --> 00:17:07.780
For like when he blew up the security guard's head, he was working on the computer and I,

00:17:08.260 --> 00:17:21.620
My assumption was that he was hacking into the system and short-circuiting something that caused them to overload when he remotely detonated it with the sonic
screwdriver.

00:17:22.199 --> 00:17:27.900
That may have been just me, but I had no problem with any of the uses of the sonic screwdriver in this.

00:17:28.060 --> 00:17:33.900
They were, from a plot point of view, they were shortcutting things that were not major

00:17:34.070 --> 00:17:40.960
plot problems that he would have had to spend much longer resolving without it.

00:17:40.990 --> 00:17:43.160
It just got us there faster, and that's what it's for.

00:17:43.240 --> 00:17:43.460
You'd have to be quick.

00:17:43.880 --> 00:17:45.260
You'd have to be clever or something.

00:17:45.560 --> 00:17:46.400
Yeah, I know.

00:17:47.000 --> 00:17:51.420
You'd have to come up with an idea for writing instead of pushing a button.

00:17:51.540 --> 00:17:52.780
No, I'm going to push back on that.

00:17:53.080 --> 00:17:53.800
No, I don't think so.

00:17:53.960 --> 00:17:56.800
He wasn't hacking the robot's heads.

00:17:58.300 --> 00:18:03.960
he wasn't hacking if he had all the robots would have blown up they didn't if if he knew where

00:18:03.980 --> 00:18:09.100
they were then he didn't turn around the computer yeah he was he was monitoring them from the

00:18:09.280 --> 00:18:14.600
computer because he was he was in the system okay why didn't he blow up the delta device from there

00:18:14.680 --> 00:18:19.359
then why wait he's in the computers why did he do it then why did he have to get into the

00:18:20.240 --> 00:18:22.220
in the room. How did he blow up the gun?

00:18:22.900 --> 00:18:23.640
Did he hack

00:18:24.060 --> 00:18:26.000
kid's gun? If you'd

00:18:26.100 --> 00:18:27.920
already hacked kid's gun, why not blow up

00:18:28.060 --> 00:18:29.900
kid's gun before you walked

00:18:30.020 --> 00:18:31.760
into the, you popped in the room?

00:18:31.940 --> 00:18:34.160
Because that's the sort of thing you do. You disarm

00:18:34.280 --> 00:18:35.520
and go on. No.

00:18:36.060 --> 00:18:38.100
It was just, he was

00:18:38.300 --> 00:18:39.860
just zapping stuff with it.

00:18:40.420 --> 00:18:42.020
There was no thought to that.

00:18:43.200 --> 00:18:44.060
That was just, look how

00:18:44.380 --> 00:18:45.660
powerful my that-that-that is.

00:18:46.260 --> 00:18:47.660
No. No. There's,

00:18:47.860 --> 00:18:52.920
you're twisting it in trying to come up with logical reason for something that hasn't got one

00:18:53.320 --> 00:18:58.660
by saying oh he hacked it and i appreciate that because we all do that it's the headcanon there

00:18:58.780 --> 00:19:05.120
but nah it all of all of that stuff was done using hard light projection and he needed some

00:19:05.220 --> 00:19:10.779
he had a glove for doing the hard light projection but presumably he could also use the sonic for it

00:19:11.020 --> 00:19:21.100
uh-huh uh-huh yeah yeah then then yeah then he should just carry a hard light device around with

00:19:21.100 --> 00:19:26.160
him at all times then but he didn't do he didn't he didn't actually do the hard light stuff it was

00:19:26.940 --> 00:19:33.020
what's his name from nathan barley gary yeah well i don't know gary the techie one not the nurse one

00:19:33.720 --> 00:19:40.760
yes who instantly was another person from slow horses that's two we've had now in this season

00:19:40.780 --> 00:19:47.460
coincidence just it's entirely a coincidence but i'm not going to pass up the opportunity to plug

00:19:47.660 --> 00:19:53.760
slow horses for our listeners because it's great and he's great in it he was great in this as well

00:19:53.840 --> 00:20:00.460
actually let's see i have here oh god not only is it the ronnie one of if not the most overrated

00:20:00.620 --> 00:20:05.840
villain in doctor who history but now there's two of them when did they become a ds couple

00:20:06.520 --> 00:20:09.180
I mean, obviously in that moment, but why?

00:20:09.980 --> 00:20:13.000
Why did they become a Dom-Sub pairing?

00:20:13.740 --> 00:20:17.660
We didn't see that with the Doctor and the Doctor, I don't think.

00:20:18.040 --> 00:20:22.220
No, but it is a more in-character thing for the Rani, I would have thought.

00:20:23.120 --> 00:20:25.380
You can imagine it with Kate Amara.

00:20:26.120 --> 00:20:29.120
Which is more, Mrs. Flood suddenly becoming...

00:20:29.420 --> 00:20:36.460
It's not, it's not the fact that the Ronnie is snotty or overbearing.

00:20:36.920 --> 00:20:37.680
It's that Mrs.

00:20:38.120 --> 00:20:41.460
Flood suddenly turned into a toad.

00:20:43.420 --> 00:20:43.760
Toady.

00:20:43.850 --> 00:20:44.020
Yeah.

00:20:44.020 --> 00:20:46.820
I wasn't thinking, I wasn't thinking of her as Kate O'Mara, to be honest.

00:20:46.970 --> 00:20:50.920
I was thinking of, uh, Hachi Panjabi as Kate O'Mara.

00:20:52.280 --> 00:20:54.540
Also, I mean, let's go there.

00:20:55.180 --> 00:20:58.720
You know, we, I'm, we've, we've had our, we've had our,

00:20:59.200 --> 00:21:03.400
discussions along the way i'll say i thought it was the master and the reason i thought it was

00:21:03.500 --> 00:21:10.200
the master is because the ronnie is worthless and but i'm sure and i didn't go back through and i

00:21:10.320 --> 00:21:14.900
meant to i'm sure we've mentioned the possibility that this was the ronnie and we've dismissed it

00:21:14.980 --> 00:21:20.880
because we have it's never the ronnie but also the argument for the ronnie stays still it was i told

00:21:20.890 --> 00:21:27.159
you we had to be a time lord had to be a time lord why why i can't remember why it's because of where

00:21:27.180 --> 00:21:31.600
they are and how they're interacting and what they know about the TARDIS and traveling through

00:21:31.650 --> 00:21:35.700
time and following the technology. They have the ability to travel through time. They have to be

00:21:35.820 --> 00:21:43.360
more powerful than a time lord. The fact that Mrs. Flood is breaking the fourth wall suggests to me

00:21:43.840 --> 00:21:52.980
something that goes beyond the power of the doctor, really. Although now I'm making all of

00:21:53.000 --> 00:22:00.220
the kind of connections with the land of fiction stuff and the way in which the doctor came out of

00:22:00.360 --> 00:22:08.060
the television in Lux I don't know whether I still think that but the thinking to kind of

00:22:08.240 --> 00:22:14.600
defend our position of it not being the Rani and my position of it not even being a time lord

00:22:14.620 --> 00:22:25.000
is that it it that that kind of thing suggests a more kind of playful powerful role that's more

00:22:25.060 --> 00:22:31.100
akin to like if it was the if she was the black guardian for example i'd have bought that and

00:22:31.160 --> 00:22:37.120
particularly in a season that's all about gods you know the the kind of balance in the and and

00:22:37.380 --> 00:22:43.220
beings like the guardians can travel through destroyed we were explicitly told they were

00:22:43.240 --> 00:22:51.140
destroyed when in the giggle the giggle yeah so i kind of feel like that setting destroyed them i

00:22:51.300 --> 00:22:56.560
feel like that's setting it up anything that mentioned is mentioned in the giggle feels like

00:22:56.560 --> 00:23:01.240
a setup which is why i think the master is actually a more plausible thing than the rani

00:23:01.460 --> 00:23:08.720
like the rani didn't get mentioned in the giggle no one who isn't a doctor who fan watching you

00:23:08.740 --> 00:23:15.200
know since gato came on to be honest pretty much since who's this for the show came back in 2005

00:23:15.620 --> 00:23:21.480
is going to have a clue who the rani is i i don't i don't i mean he's got susan in here he's got he

00:23:21.680 --> 00:23:28.140
he's been dumping old stuff in these episodes like crazy to who is this for when he is not

00:23:28.260 --> 00:23:34.620
hitting the mark with old fans and yet this is who we get all this stuff dumped on kate omara i'm

00:23:34.640 --> 00:23:36.220
nothing against Kate O'Mara.

00:23:36.880 --> 00:23:38.780
She was playing a part that was

00:23:39.000 --> 00:23:40.500
meant to be Dynasty

00:23:40.730 --> 00:23:42.760
Plus Five in that character,

00:23:43.440 --> 00:23:44.740
but this makes no sense

00:23:44.900 --> 00:23:46.700
for this character. Therani

00:23:47.400 --> 00:23:48.360
is completely

00:23:49.020 --> 00:23:50.540
disinterested in anything but her

00:23:50.760 --> 00:23:52.600
scientific experiments. Not

00:23:52.900 --> 00:23:53.860
revenge, not...

00:23:55.900 --> 00:23:56.700
I'm going

00:23:56.700 --> 00:23:58.560
to hold judgment on that

00:23:58.960 --> 00:23:59.960
for next week.

00:24:01.620 --> 00:24:02.520
I'm not...

00:24:03.100 --> 00:24:04.600
Anything we've seen from an East

00:24:04.620 --> 00:24:13.060
dobson doesn't seem to fit to me but on the other hand i'm more willing to give the rani a chance

00:24:13.210 --> 00:24:20.240
than you have because i because i think that that that kind of fundamental that she is disinterested

00:24:20.460 --> 00:24:31.140
and will pursue in but she's basically amoral but has has this kind of pursuit of knowledge and

00:24:31.160 --> 00:24:39.520
science that is her core driver and then the other aspect of it is as you say dynasty plus five the

00:24:39.600 --> 00:24:46.720
campness that kate omara brought to it where i feel like the rani has worked is where you know

00:24:46.940 --> 00:24:52.160
since well see i say since those tv stories actually i didn't rate the tv stories that

00:24:52.220 --> 00:24:58.440
has appeared in well i feel like rani has worked has been where as is often the case big finish

00:24:58.460 --> 00:25:05.260
has taken the character, cast Siobhan Redmond in the part, who is absolutely not the kind of

00:25:05.720 --> 00:25:12.500
campy Kate O'Mara type, and really kind of played up into that amoral scientist thing.

00:25:12.900 --> 00:25:21.220
And so I hope to see something along those lines, but I don't think that's what we're going to get.

00:25:21.520 --> 00:25:25.460
It's not what we're going to get because the first thing out of her mouth practically is that

00:25:25.480 --> 00:25:28.740
she's going to go torture the doctor in unimaginable ways.

00:25:29.500 --> 00:25:29.620
Yeah.

00:25:30.220 --> 00:25:30.320
Yep.

00:25:30.960 --> 00:25:34.000
So she is just the master who is a woman.

00:25:34.760 --> 00:25:36.240
But we've already had that.

00:25:36.760 --> 00:25:38.460
We already have the master as a woman.

00:25:39.020 --> 00:25:41.140
So we don't need the Ronnie for this.

00:25:41.260 --> 00:25:41.840
This is just,

00:25:42.660 --> 00:25:42.940
like I say,

00:25:43.020 --> 00:25:44.920
it's fan service for the fans who aren't watching.

00:25:45.700 --> 00:25:47.380
Or they're the ones who are trying to get.

00:25:47.960 --> 00:25:51.120
What she should be doing if she's in character is going and kidnapping Isaac

00:25:51.340 --> 00:25:51.480
Newton.

00:25:52.200 --> 00:25:53.900
And figure out what this Mabbity thing is all about.

00:25:54.560 --> 00:26:02.120
Well, just because, you know, it's time she went around and collected another bunch of brilliant scientists.

00:26:03.380 --> 00:26:04.860
Because, you know, that's what she does.

00:26:06.580 --> 00:26:07.520
But she did once.

00:26:08.280 --> 00:26:12.680
Yeah, well, she's only been in two stories, so that's what she does half the time.

00:26:13.420 --> 00:26:14.900
So, yeah.

00:26:17.800 --> 00:26:22.820
No, this is just, he's just setting this up to be a disaster.

00:26:23.040 --> 00:26:33.600
I mean, maybe his plan is to make it look like it's going to be so awful that he can't possibly make us think it's worse than the Sutek ending last year.

00:26:34.130 --> 00:26:41.400
I mean, my expectations are so low going into this finale, lower than they've ever been.

00:26:41.960 --> 00:26:59.720
The only thing that's holding me up, that's keeping me going moment after moment, is that thought that they're going to fix this, regenerate the Doctor,
de-bi-generate the Doctor, whatever it is they have to do, get rid of Mavity, because that's just stupid to maintain forever.

00:27:00.760 --> 00:27:03.640
And, you know, maybe bring back the Time Lords again.

00:27:04.120 --> 00:27:09.620
He's brought back two already, and he hasn't even got into the final double episode.

00:27:09.840 --> 00:27:16.360
So he seems to have completely forgotten the fact that the Time Lords weren't destroyed, too.

00:27:16.600 --> 00:27:18.360
I don't think he has.

00:27:18.620 --> 00:27:20.620
I think there is going to be an explanation.

00:27:21.220 --> 00:27:26.560
But the doctor literally said, you know, the Time Lords were wiped out in a second.

00:27:26.720 --> 00:27:28.700
And that's, you know, traumatized me.

00:27:29.140 --> 00:27:31.580
And that's, you know, I kind of was feeling that.

00:27:31.880 --> 00:27:36.360
It's like, OK, I'm not saying you didn't believe that the Time Lords had been wiped out.

00:27:36.420 --> 00:27:38.280
But in fact, they weren't.

00:27:39.300 --> 00:27:39.720
They weren't.

00:27:39.780 --> 00:27:46.240
they weren't they they survived that and then later they were taken out by the master we don't

00:27:46.320 --> 00:27:52.200
know how was it in an instant now but that but but that is the current status he is the last of the

00:27:52.260 --> 00:27:58.280
time lords except obviously he's not the master he was the last of the time lords since the master

00:27:58.480 --> 00:28:05.980
when the master came back there the i mean one of the things about this episode and it ties into my

00:28:06.020 --> 00:28:13.880
theme of it's doing stuff that's been done before by Russell T Davies, but better previously.

00:28:14.960 --> 00:28:20.980
Like I enjoyed this episode. Most of the things in it I thought were done pretty well, but what

00:28:21.120 --> 00:28:28.780
he's doing in this episode in at least one respect is bringing back a time Lord from the classic

00:28:28.860 --> 00:28:36.400
series a villain who he you know really appreciates who has been uh presented without

00:28:36.820 --> 00:28:43.740
kind of revealing their identity and then pulling off a a reveal at the end of the episode this is

00:28:43.960 --> 00:28:51.800
utopia except it hasn't got Derek Jacoby in it etc etc and the it's not you know utopia is one of

00:28:51.880 --> 00:29:01.120
the one of the great episodes in my book and this is good i enjoyed it but if he's trying to do what

00:29:01.120 --> 00:29:05.960
he did in utopia it's kind of like well he's done that already he's done it as well as he possibly

00:29:06.220 --> 00:29:14.640
could why bother i don't know it everything is a retread but done poorer in in these last two years

00:29:15.400 --> 00:29:20.460
that's how i feel yeah well like yeah i mean that's kind of been my complaint not everything

00:29:20.460 --> 00:29:31.480
But the general problem with bringing someone back to run the show, to run a show that has always, always moved forward.

00:29:31.740 --> 00:29:33.000
Well, almost always moved forward.

00:29:33.000 --> 00:29:34.400
I know Barry Letts came back.

00:29:34.520 --> 00:29:40.100
And yeah, there are probably other examples where you can see it as being slightly more circular.

00:29:40.340 --> 00:29:48.180
But still, I feel like there isn't enough of let's do this very differently.

00:29:49.120 --> 00:29:55.860
and not doing the same thing again as well or better because you can still tell better stories

00:29:56.800 --> 00:30:05.220
even if you're in the the same kind of rut i don't i i think i think utopia was pretty fantastic i

00:30:05.340 --> 00:30:10.860
don't think you can do it again and better what went before i'm just talking about the season as

00:30:10.880 --> 00:30:18.480
a whole not i i feel that the kind of critic criticisms of of chibnall some were valid some

00:30:18.500 --> 00:30:25.200
less so. But what I think it is fair to say is that what he did with the show was unlike

00:30:26.240 --> 00:30:31.140
what anyone else had done with the show previously. And that was interesting,

00:30:32.100 --> 00:30:35.840
regardless of whether you approved of the things he was doing or not.

00:30:37.080 --> 00:30:46.940
No. Okay. Let's talk about the Hellyton. My first note here is poppy flavored honey.

00:30:47.040 --> 00:30:53.440
how big are you guys on honey over there is that a thing i mean i know we have honey well yeah we

00:30:53.600 --> 00:30:59.760
do have honey yeah yeah yeah and and we have typically speaking flavored honey is because

00:30:59.950 --> 00:31:07.140
of the type plant that pollinates it or that the bees collect the pollen for i think yeah you don't

00:31:07.360 --> 00:31:13.280
pollinate the honey you could yes they is the pollen is the pollen that the he the bees are

00:31:13.300 --> 00:31:18.640
collecting i'm having trouble imagining that as being something so you know as big as coca-cola

00:31:18.710 --> 00:31:27.400
for the western galactic uh region but okay it's like that's just a weird is there something more

00:31:27.430 --> 00:31:35.460
to this is this is this is this wizard of oz so is this a you know if you're if you're getting

00:31:35.740 --> 00:31:41.620
if you're getting into conspiracy theories about that i mean i i personally i think it's

00:31:41.640 --> 00:31:42.860
I think it is.

00:31:43.020 --> 00:31:44.160
This episode's pretty gay.

00:31:44.960 --> 00:31:45.760
Poppy honey.

00:31:46.460 --> 00:31:46.660
But,

00:31:47.180 --> 00:31:47.500
but the,

00:31:47.600 --> 00:31:50.980
but the best conspiracy theorist about that is,

00:31:51.400 --> 00:31:55.420
was suggested to me by my friend who said space baby,

00:31:55.560 --> 00:31:57.020
Poppy and Poppy honey.

00:31:58.040 --> 00:31:58.220
Like,

00:31:58.900 --> 00:31:59.160
is there,

00:31:59.320 --> 00:32:00.100
is this a coincidence?

00:32:01.200 --> 00:32:01.840
Is Poppy,

00:32:01.940 --> 00:32:06.660
the spirit of the poppy fields of the planet alien manifesting itself?

00:32:07.580 --> 00:32:07.660
Oh,

00:32:07.780 --> 00:32:08.440
that's no,

00:32:08.840 --> 00:32:09.360
it's.

00:32:10.060 --> 00:32:10.320
Yeah.

00:32:11.280 --> 00:32:11.400
Ah,

00:32:11.560 --> 00:32:18.580
so horns horns these the only aliens we've seen with horns except for the the beast on the

00:32:18.760 --> 00:32:25.360
impossible planet the daemons possibly daemons have horns oh yeah yes they did have horns yes

00:32:26.100 --> 00:32:33.460
jab with horns five rounds rapid and that was the the the gargoyle not even the not even the the

00:32:34.000 --> 00:32:41.520
daemon i i don't know what am i what am i supposed do you guys have a okay this is another one of

00:32:41.540 --> 00:32:48.180
things where this episode's likely to lay some of me bare. Her horns were cut off. Now, nobody did

00:32:49.700 --> 00:32:55.240
colonialism better than the British. I mean, you guys were top notch at that. I mean, we're,

00:32:55.860 --> 00:33:00.220
we're definitely second class colonial overlords compared to the British.

00:33:00.740 --> 00:33:01.900
But you've done your best.

00:33:02.620 --> 00:33:08.340
We've done our best. I'm not saying we didn't. I'm just saying nobody did it better than the

00:33:08.360 --> 00:33:16.280
british does this forced assimilation have any particular does it does it resonate in some

00:33:16.640 --> 00:33:22.440
particular way in your mind that makes you think of a particular atrocity or thing that you guys did

00:33:23.060 --> 00:33:29.760
over the years i'm not sure that it's it's necessarily a particular thing i think it's

00:33:29.780 --> 00:33:38.680
a general thing about discrimination and about yeah i mean yes the whole thing about the

00:33:38.920 --> 00:33:43.620
discrimination i've got i've got it right here in my notes prejudice is bad so we got that right

00:33:43.810 --> 00:33:50.440
out of the way prejudice is bad but that particular piece the fact that she she had her

00:33:50.660 --> 00:33:58.000
horns cut off okay so that she could hide so that even her i don't know partner so she could pass

00:33:58.140 --> 00:34:04.240
Yes. So her partner, I don't know, romantic partner, business partner, whatever. When he

00:34:04.500 --> 00:34:09.120
finds out, I guess he couldn't be the romantic partner, probably would have noticed the horn

00:34:09.340 --> 00:34:11.879
stubs on the back of her head. So let's say business partner.

00:34:12.139 --> 00:34:13.560
Form that association.

00:34:14.500 --> 00:34:18.899
Yeah. I couldn't tell because he didn't appear to be part of the act. So, but he was dressed up

00:34:19.280 --> 00:34:25.580
like he was part of the act. So I don't know. Anyway, but she, you know, so she passes. So,

00:34:25.659 --> 00:34:34.220
and that obviously there's lots of examples of new people who do things so that they can pass.

00:34:34.940 --> 00:34:40.639
But Belinda asked, did you do that to yourself? She said, no. So it was forced assimilation.

00:34:41.340 --> 00:34:49.159
Who did it? Why? If nobody likes them, why would you cut their horns off so they can pass? I don't

00:34:49.620 --> 00:34:55.620
quite understand that. But I was wondering if that was meant to be some sort of metaphor. And I'll

00:34:55.639 --> 00:35:03.440
Here's where we go back into, well, once again, listeners get a bit of me written out there.

00:35:03.660 --> 00:35:07.440
I'm sure that I have mentioned that I am white.

00:35:08.160 --> 00:35:13.720
There is nothing we can do about the fact that I'm a blonde-haired, blue-eyed white guy,

00:35:14.420 --> 00:35:21.280
but I am also a tribal member of the Citizens Pottawatomie Nation because of my grandmother

00:35:21.910 --> 00:35:23.780
or my great-grandmother, depending on how you want to look at that.

00:35:23.840 --> 00:35:28.280
in the United States, started by the British, you know, and it was started by the British,

00:35:28.400 --> 00:35:34.320
the whole, let's kill all the indigenous people. And then, you know, we carried on in the United

00:35:34.540 --> 00:35:40.860
States with programs to eradicate them in any way we can. But at some point, somebody sitting in

00:35:40.900 --> 00:35:47.160
back of one of the genocide meetings must have raised her hand and said, excuse me, excuse me,

00:35:47.940 --> 00:35:51.780
Maybe we should not, I don't know, murder them all.

00:35:52.500 --> 00:35:58.200
Maybe we should all force convert them to Jesus, which they then proceeded to do with gusto.

00:35:59.100 --> 00:36:04.100
They would kidnap children from their parents and they would put them in boarding schools.

00:36:04.610 --> 00:36:05.540
They would cut their hair.

00:36:05.590 --> 00:36:06.880
They would burn their clothes.

00:36:07.250 --> 00:36:12.880
They would give them white men clothes and they would eradicate their languages, teach

00:36:12.990 --> 00:36:16.860
them English and the ways of God.

00:36:17.540 --> 00:36:25.540
And it was an attempt to absolutely force assimilate them into our culture.

00:36:25.640 --> 00:36:27.180
And I know they did something like that in Australia.

00:36:27.640 --> 00:36:29.140
I'm just far more familiar with it.

00:36:29.360 --> 00:36:34.520
My grandmother was in one of those schools for several years when she was seven.

00:36:34.900 --> 00:36:36.420
She was not force assimilated.

00:36:37.240 --> 00:36:42.540
She was pretty much already there because her mother was a Christian and married to

00:36:42.540 --> 00:36:43.140
an Irishman.

00:36:43.740 --> 00:36:47.480
And it's that her mother died and her father was a cowboy.

00:36:47.740 --> 00:36:51.600
And so he was out, you know, driving a cattle across the country.

00:36:51.960 --> 00:36:58.000
So that was an option to put her in a school to get an education when she was seven.

00:36:58.200 --> 00:36:59.540
So there was that.

00:36:59.780 --> 00:37:10.420
But that's what came to my mind is this is because I still do associate those those atrocities, even though my grandmother wasn't there by by force.

00:37:11.280 --> 00:37:13.360
It was still it's still an atrocity.

00:37:13.400 --> 00:37:15.940
There is an Indian school right down the street from me.

00:37:15.990 --> 00:37:20.980
I live one block from a street called Indian School.

00:37:21.510 --> 00:37:25.740
And if you just go three or four miles down the road, the buildings still stand.

00:37:26.220 --> 00:37:28.180
It's now in a park and a museum.

00:37:28.900 --> 00:37:34.240
But, you know, an Indian school that existed for about 100 years in operation.

00:37:35.360 --> 00:37:37.160
So that came to my mind.

00:37:37.210 --> 00:37:41.420
But then I thought this is a British audience because it's obviously a British audience

00:37:41.440 --> 00:37:48.040
because I guess that guy Rylan's a person, a real person, and not-

00:37:48.040 --> 00:37:55.140
I was confused about that because Belinda recognized him.

00:37:55.140 --> 00:38:01.820
But then we don't actually know how long he had been being cryogenically preserved for,

00:38:01.820 --> 00:38:05.300
so he could be a current celebrity.

00:38:05.300 --> 00:38:06.200
Could be.

00:38:06.200 --> 00:38:06.920
I don't know.

00:38:06.920 --> 00:38:08.700
I think they called him the immortal Rylan.

00:38:09.440 --> 00:38:29.400
But but my point is that that wouldn't play in an American audience because, A, I don't think anybody knows who he is. And B, I don't think we really do Eurovision here. So
if he's a host of Eurovision, which is this would thud like, you know, a textbook on the floor, it wouldn't fly.

00:38:29.440 --> 00:38:34.900
So I still think that the target here is British sensibilities.

00:38:35.150 --> 00:38:37.680
And so therefore coming back to that whole forced assimilation,

00:38:38.140 --> 00:38:40.220
like what atrocity is he trying,

00:38:40.340 --> 00:38:42.240
which particular one is he trying to bring up?

00:38:42.340 --> 00:38:42.440
Is,

00:38:42.640 --> 00:38:43.220
is there one,

00:38:43.300 --> 00:38:44.340
is there anything comparable?

00:38:45.080 --> 00:38:48.040
I don't think I don't wipe out a particular race.

00:38:48.780 --> 00:38:48.840
I mean,

00:38:48.940 --> 00:38:49.060
I,

00:38:50.380 --> 00:38:51.260
I think,

00:38:51.540 --> 00:38:56.780
I think there are countless examples of where people have been.

00:38:57.490 --> 00:38:57.620
Well,

00:38:58.060 --> 00:38:58.420
I mean,

00:38:58.520 --> 00:38:58.860
you're right.

00:38:58.960 --> 00:39:13.060
It's about colonialists and it's about people being driven off their land or resources used and people treated in a way that is entirely because they're seen as being
second rate, second class or whatever.

00:39:13.140 --> 00:39:39.700
And I think this, I mean, it's not a kind of subtle political message, but then that's where I think these stories, this is the kind of story that I think can work quite
well, because it's a simple, easily digestible association with this whole idea.

00:39:40.559 --> 00:39:46.720
when it comes down to it so events and organizations like eurovision are all about

00:39:47.440 --> 00:39:55.040
soft power and the exercise of soft power and i think that russell t davis very kind of tuned into

00:39:55.540 --> 00:40:01.900
to all of that stuff like when we when we we talked briefly a couple of weeks ago about how

00:40:03.240 --> 00:40:10.980
unit had evolved from when RTD brought them back in 2005 and the kind of world and context in which

00:40:10.980 --> 00:40:20.000
we were was one where the kind of coalition of the willing had been involved in the invasion

00:40:20.310 --> 00:40:28.260
of Iraq and the way in which hard power was used was very different I think to the way it is

00:40:28.280 --> 00:40:36.680
now like two decades later and you know having seen what's happened with you know just take them

00:40:38.200 --> 00:40:46.680
like the withdrawal from afghanistan for example that you're looking at a very different world but

00:40:46.840 --> 00:40:54.880
but the things that rtd is interested in are still the same things which is how do the how

00:40:54.900 --> 00:41:04.200
how do the the global powers exercise exercise what influence and you know we're talking about

00:41:04.440 --> 00:41:09.440
malign influence here over other people's other countries here and it is the way in which that

00:41:09.600 --> 00:41:17.840
soft power is corrupted and in which the the kind of corporatism is hide hiding a kind of

00:41:18.600 --> 00:41:24.320
ugly ugly truth under all of this and that that doesn't i think connect to any particular example

00:41:24.340 --> 00:41:28.320
I think you could come up with innumerable examples of where that applies.

00:41:29.640 --> 00:41:30.420
I'm just curious.

00:41:30.660 --> 00:41:33.640
Now, you say Eurovision is an exercise in soft power.

00:41:33.980 --> 00:41:36.280
Who is exercising that soft power and to what end?

00:41:36.860 --> 00:41:38.860
The countries who are engaged in Eurovision.

00:41:39.320 --> 00:41:46.660
So, I mean, I literally know nothing about Eurovision, but one of my colleagues is extremely

00:41:46.980 --> 00:41:48.080
keen on Eurovision.

00:41:48.460 --> 00:41:54.300
And so I have had explained to me quite a lot of the rules around Eurovision, which include

00:41:54.320 --> 00:42:01.120
fact that at least half a dozen of the countries in the contest, because I mean, my kind of

00:42:01.680 --> 00:42:08.020
initial naive question was, how exactly can you have the, I remember Eurovision as just being like

00:42:08.480 --> 00:42:13.440
one night, like the night that Doctor Who was on was Eurovision night and everyone's, every country

00:42:13.540 --> 00:42:18.560
sung their song and people voted on each other's songs and whoever kind of convinced enough juries

00:42:18.880 --> 00:42:24.280
to give them the votes from the other countries was going to win. But actually now it goes on

00:42:24.300 --> 00:42:30.680
it starts much, much earlier than that. And there are all of these kind of previous stages to the

00:42:30.910 --> 00:42:36.180
contest. And it turns out that whatever it is, half a dozen countries, France, Germany,

00:42:37.420 --> 00:42:43.720
Switzerland, I think the UK, possibly a couple of others who were in it at the start,

00:42:44.620 --> 00:42:48.960
automatically qualify. But there are these stages between these other countries.

00:42:50.020 --> 00:42:57.820
And there are countries outside, I mean, Russia used to be in it, Israel's in it, Australia is in it.

00:42:58.160 --> 00:43:01.700
Australia definitely isn't in Europe.

00:43:03.200 --> 00:43:07.600
And so the kind of countries that weren't original countries have to participate in this.

00:43:08.050 --> 00:43:12.040
So there are all sorts of kind of shenanigans and rules around this.

00:43:12.090 --> 00:43:19.140
But the way in which you exercise soft power in these contests, just like, you know, just like kind of sporting contests or whatever,

00:43:19.340 --> 00:43:26.960
that you invest in your own country's talent in this regard and you build your influence through

00:43:27.140 --> 00:43:34.220
that and it's it does matter i think that soft power has become a lot it's been dismissed and

00:43:34.320 --> 00:43:41.120
seen as a lot less fashionable by well certainly in america where you just pissed us all away

00:43:41.820 --> 00:43:49.300
but also here in the uk where the way in which we've exercised soft power through our membership

00:43:49.320 --> 00:43:54.120
the European Union has been completely disregarded as being important within the last decade.

00:43:54.640 --> 00:43:59.580
On the other hand, I think if you look at countries like Russia and particularly China

00:43:59.800 --> 00:44:04.560
and the way in which they exercise economic soft power, I mean, look at China and Africa,

00:44:05.380 --> 00:44:10.140
you see a completely different story. The countries in the ascendancy are the ones that

00:44:10.500 --> 00:44:16.180
recognize how important soft power is. And this is just kind of one aspect of that. But I think that

00:44:16.200 --> 00:44:23.680
it's, you know, it's right up RTD street in terms of the kind of political commentary that he's

00:44:23.840 --> 00:44:31.560
interested in. I can't even imagine, I mean, I can, I can imagine rooting for a local sports team.

00:44:32.220 --> 00:44:36.820
I can kind of imagine it. The fact that the sport team I root for is New Zealand

00:44:37.600 --> 00:44:43.660
in cricket has, has not much to do with the fact that we really don't have a cricket in the United

00:44:43.680 --> 00:44:44.800
says, so I can't.

00:44:44.840 --> 00:44:50.580
And you know, we do have one, but you know, I can't imagine that for singing.

00:44:51.360 --> 00:44:56.320
Now, maybe that's back down to me and the whole, you know, if anybody takes from it

00:44:56.320 --> 00:44:58.800
that I don't like any singing, that's, that's absolutely not true.

00:44:59.320 --> 00:45:05.080
It's just that given if you played a song, a well-done instrumental version of the song

00:45:05.560 --> 00:45:09.860
or a sung version of the song, I'm going to go with the instrumental.

00:45:10.940 --> 00:45:17.600
You know it's humans playing the instruments, though, when you sort of dismiss the human

00:45:17.880 --> 00:45:18.140
involvement.

00:45:18.860 --> 00:45:21.300
No, it's not a human voice.

00:45:21.680 --> 00:45:23.300
I'm talking about a voice.

00:45:23.370 --> 00:45:24.680
I'm talking about words.

00:45:25.460 --> 00:45:26.340
That's the difference.

00:45:26.860 --> 00:45:30.420
It's very few songs that the words speak to me.

00:45:30.840 --> 00:45:33.420
It's the melody that grabs me.

00:45:33.980 --> 00:45:35.600
The words get in the way frequently.

00:45:36.180 --> 00:45:37.760
So I don't.

00:45:37.780 --> 00:45:39.360
And a lot of people can't sing.

00:45:39.680 --> 00:45:41.600
And yet they're still popular singers.

00:45:42.320 --> 00:45:43.900
So they have terrible voices.

00:45:44.520 --> 00:45:49.880
So I was like, how did this person manage to get a second job?

00:45:51.500 --> 00:45:52.540
I don't understand.

00:45:53.200 --> 00:45:55.180
But that's again, that's kind of me.

00:45:55.420 --> 00:45:58.400
I just can't picture me going, I'm rooting for the British team.

00:45:58.880 --> 00:45:59.640
I wouldn't do it in that voice.

00:45:59.820 --> 00:46:02.760
Oh, I'm rooting for the British team because I'm British.

00:46:03.300 --> 00:46:05.940
You know, I can't I can't picture that.

00:46:06.340 --> 00:46:10.320
I would listen to the music and go, that's the better song.

00:46:10.980 --> 00:46:11.980
That's the better performance.

00:46:12.140 --> 00:46:15.180
I can't picture that being nationalistic.

00:46:16.760 --> 00:46:20.380
But there's an element of that to the sport as well.

00:46:21.420 --> 00:46:22.660
Yes, there is to sport.

00:46:22.660 --> 00:46:23.460
I absolutely agree.

00:46:24.080 --> 00:46:27.220
Well, but if you support the New Zealand cricketers,

00:46:27.220 --> 00:46:30.860
and I do not even begin to understand how cricket works,

00:46:31.760 --> 00:46:34.740
but if they are playing one of the other cricketers,

00:46:34.840 --> 00:46:37.800
I think India play cricket. Let's say they're playing India.

00:46:38.160 --> 00:46:40.460
Yes, they do. They might even be playing Australia.

00:46:41.460 --> 00:46:47.900
India do some particularly exemplary hitting of the balls. Then even the kind of most ardent

00:46:48.040 --> 00:46:51.580
New Zealand fan has to kind of grudgingly admire what is going on there.

00:46:51.680 --> 00:46:51.900
Absolutely.

00:46:52.120 --> 00:46:52.960
Isn't it similar to that?

00:46:53.560 --> 00:46:53.920
Could be.

00:46:54.600 --> 00:46:58.700
That admiration does not undercut the fact that you remain a New Zealand supporter.

00:46:59.500 --> 00:47:04.440
But New Zealand is a team. It has some continuity from year to year.

00:47:04.800 --> 00:47:08.200
It has, it has, that is not true with Eurovision.

00:47:08.640 --> 00:47:12.000
It's just whatever act we choose to throw up this year, right?

00:47:12.240 --> 00:47:14.100
Yes, it's more like Wimbledon, if you like.

00:47:14.400 --> 00:47:20.560
It's, we, we support the British tennis player and the British tennis player isn't always

00:47:20.680 --> 00:47:21.360
the same person.

00:47:22.100 --> 00:47:22.560
Don't do that.

00:47:23.000 --> 00:47:23.540
I don't do that.

00:47:24.160 --> 00:47:26.580
When it gets down to individual sports, I don't care.

00:47:27.140 --> 00:47:28.700
But not that I'm big on sports.

00:47:29.180 --> 00:47:32.760
So if you, if you, if you support the, the, how long have you supported the New Zealand

00:47:32.980 --> 00:47:33.820
cricket team for?

00:47:34.500 --> 00:47:36.320
10, 15 years.

00:47:36.820 --> 00:47:38.440
Are they still all the same players

00:47:38.570 --> 00:47:39.960
as when you started supporting them?

00:47:40.660 --> 00:47:40.900
No.

00:47:41.460 --> 00:47:41.820
Like I said,

00:47:41.920 --> 00:47:43.220
but there's continuity to the fact

00:47:43.340 --> 00:47:44.100
that they come and go

00:47:44.220 --> 00:47:44.980
and they ebb and...

00:47:45.240 --> 00:47:46.500
It's not like...

00:47:46.500 --> 00:47:48.180
It's still triggers broom, isn't it?

00:47:48.390 --> 00:47:49.240
The British team is...

00:47:49.240 --> 00:47:50.720
It's not like the British Eurovision group

00:47:50.900 --> 00:47:52.000
is the Rolling Stones

00:47:52.640 --> 00:47:53.100
and they just...

00:47:53.340 --> 00:47:54.140
One guy dies

00:47:54.420 --> 00:47:55.220
and then they replace him

00:47:55.340 --> 00:47:55.840
with another one

00:47:55.840 --> 00:47:57.460
and each year it's the Rolling Stones

00:47:58.260 --> 00:47:59.700
and after 20 years they're all dead

00:47:59.840 --> 00:48:00.600
except that they're not

00:48:00.680 --> 00:48:01.720
because they're all preserved

00:48:02.200 --> 00:48:04.340
somehow through some sort of black magic.

00:48:04.460 --> 00:48:12.860
But Eurovision is just, I don't know why, who picks what group goes up there to be the singer this year?

00:48:13.710 --> 00:48:17.200
Who, you know, I have no investment in that.

00:48:17.400 --> 00:48:17.960
There's no teamwork.

00:48:18.170 --> 00:48:19.960
It's not teamwork, basically.

00:48:21.019 --> 00:48:22.340
It's, we're just going to throw something away.

00:48:22.340 --> 00:48:26.060
No, but I kind of feel like tennis isn't really a team sport either.

00:48:26.780 --> 00:48:27.140
I agree.

00:48:27.190 --> 00:48:28.360
And that's why I don't do it for tennis.

00:48:29.140 --> 00:48:29.980
I don't think that way.

00:48:30.580 --> 00:48:31.700
I don't even think there are teams.

00:48:31.750 --> 00:48:32.640
I mean, I know they call them.

00:48:32.680 --> 00:48:37.020
I mean, I know they call it, oh, it's Team USA, but it's not.

00:48:37.740 --> 00:48:37.800
Yeah.

00:48:39.240 --> 00:48:39.440
Sure.

00:48:39.530 --> 00:48:42.520
Some people root for their team in Eurovision, apparently.

00:48:43.420 --> 00:48:43.620
Yeah.

00:48:44.680 --> 00:48:45.640
They do seem to.

00:48:45.920 --> 00:48:46.880
And I have to point this.

00:48:47.500 --> 00:48:51.200
Like I said, I had to do some research for Eurovision a little bit.

00:48:51.210 --> 00:48:52.800
I didn't go into voting or anything like this.

00:48:53.030 --> 00:48:58.640
What I find fascinating, and I know I threw the word out there earlier, and I'm going to throw it out there again.

00:48:59.080 --> 00:49:06.580
I had no idea until this week that a very popular nicknames for Eurovision are the Gay

00:49:06.760 --> 00:49:08.580
Olympics and the Gay World Cup.

00:49:09.280 --> 00:49:10.360
But I can totally see it.

00:49:10.720 --> 00:49:11.000
Yeah.

00:49:11.680 --> 00:49:12.960
Yeah, I can totally see it.

00:49:13.560 --> 00:49:13.740
Okay.

00:49:14.480 --> 00:49:16.920
Maybe that's the soft power that's being exercised.

00:49:17.600 --> 00:49:17.700
What?

00:49:17.860 --> 00:49:20.060
You mean the kind of pink power?

00:49:20.720 --> 00:49:22.100
Yeah, exactly.

00:49:22.820 --> 00:49:23.260
To some degree.

00:49:23.660 --> 00:49:24.900
It's perfectly perfect.

00:49:25.060 --> 00:49:43.160
I mean, one of the kind of big shifts or parallel to the big shifts in attitudes towards homosexuality here was all the stuff about the pink pound and the kind of economic
value of gay consumers, essentially.

00:49:44.240 --> 00:49:44.800
Okay, good.

00:49:44.800 --> 00:49:48.200
I'm glad you just explained what a pink pound was because that was worrying me.

00:49:48.760 --> 00:49:49.900
Never heard that phrase before.

00:49:50.560 --> 00:49:50.760
Okay.

00:49:51.240 --> 00:49:52.660
Well, I wasn't sure.

00:49:53.000 --> 00:49:59.480
I had to explain because I wasn't sure whether that was the kind of internationally recognized term.

00:49:59.560 --> 00:50:03.580
But I'm sure, you know, similar kinds of things happen when the...

00:50:03.740 --> 00:50:09.360
And again, it's a political and cultural shift, but it comes about through these things.

00:50:09.800 --> 00:50:16.360
It's not just preaching to people that, you know, you should respect.

00:50:17.360 --> 00:50:24.580
You may be a heterosexual and your God may tell you that heterosexuality is the only true way.

00:50:25.080 --> 00:50:27.500
It's not just preaching to those people that they're wrong.

00:50:27.720 --> 00:50:37.160
It's actually making the cultural shift through a range of different ways of persuading people,

00:50:37.260 --> 00:50:43.700
which includes appealing to, you know, maybe people's own self-interest.

00:50:43.960 --> 00:50:51.020
when you're saying actually economically you're going to be better off if you consider that you

00:50:51.020 --> 00:50:58.820
know there is a there's a sector out there who actually you know in in many cases have more

00:50:58.960 --> 00:51:05.920
disposable income it's gonna say it's not exactly it's not exactly right but you know dinks dual

00:51:06.020 --> 00:51:13.920
income no kids exactly exactly and and makes a difference that well but it but what that kind

00:51:13.940 --> 00:51:20.760
because you start to get advertising that is aimed at gay consumers and you you know you start to get

00:51:21.979 --> 00:51:33.120
shifts in the the kind of public discourse that changes attitudes and so i do i do think that

00:51:33.560 --> 00:51:40.299
you know those those kinds of things are this this is just another aspect of that and i think

00:51:40.320 --> 00:51:48.120
that the i i suspect that the degree to which people are kind of willing to to kind of come

00:51:48.340 --> 00:51:56.240
out as eurovision supporters has also or yeah i mean celebrate its gayness if you like rather

00:51:56.250 --> 00:52:04.320
than it being a slightly nod and a wink thing has has also shifted over the years i i have no idea

00:52:04.520 --> 00:52:08.720
about this because i don't know anything about eurovision apart from anything else yeah but

00:52:08.740 --> 00:52:16.640
that's my guess okay let's see here oh back back a little bit to the hellions i don't know is there

00:52:16.640 --> 00:52:22.160
an interesting story here that's lost in the lack of details about what happened to their planet

00:52:23.460 --> 00:52:31.760
why they burned the planet instead of using it to harvest poppies to make their their poppy honey

00:52:32.460 --> 00:52:38.119
you know about the the fact that they're called hellions okay first off they've got horns that's

00:52:38.140 --> 00:52:40.100
a very evocative of Earth pagan

00:52:40.380 --> 00:52:41.960
symbology. Is there a story here

00:52:42.160 --> 00:52:43.860
about how maybe

00:52:44.100 --> 00:52:46.160
there's some reason

00:52:46.440 --> 00:52:48.220
that people have encountered

00:52:48.400 --> 00:52:50.080
them in the past and taken

00:52:50.320 --> 00:52:51.740
from, much like the impossible

00:52:52.320 --> 00:52:54.180
planet where you get down there

00:52:54.300 --> 00:52:55.500
and there's Satan

00:52:56.660 --> 00:52:58.020
in the pit

00:52:58.620 --> 00:53:00.260
and you go, oh, that must be where

00:53:00.420 --> 00:53:02.080
all the legends of Satan came from.

00:53:02.120 --> 00:53:04.040
Is there something here?

00:53:05.060 --> 00:53:06.220
Is there something to the fact that

00:53:06.220 --> 00:53:07.960
their names are Hellions?

00:53:08.460 --> 00:53:10.040
which is an actual word in English,

00:53:10.180 --> 00:53:12.000
and I have a connection here

00:53:12.400 --> 00:53:14.400
as to what the purpose of this story actually is.

00:53:14.860 --> 00:53:17.460
One, Hellenes is an English word,

00:53:18.040 --> 00:53:22.900
and it typically means a mischievous or troublesome child

00:53:24.180 --> 00:53:25.300
or kid.

00:53:26.020 --> 00:53:28.360
Main villain's name was Kid.

00:53:29.020 --> 00:53:31.220
The horns are goats,

00:53:31.880 --> 00:53:33.580
which goats are kids.

00:53:34.480 --> 00:53:35.740
And then the doctor beats him,

00:53:36.980 --> 00:53:37.840
and he's a kid.

00:53:38.380 --> 00:53:44.120
is this story anti-spanking i think that's what the purpose of this story is it's anti-corporal

00:53:44.240 --> 00:53:51.080
punishment on children well i think you've cracked it it must be that but we get nothing out of this

00:53:51.540 --> 00:53:59.660
right all of these things are just like all right i think i think you may be pulling a little bit

00:53:59.820 --> 00:54:06.000
too much out of that but i got very distracted i didn't make i didn't make the connection between

00:54:06.020 --> 00:54:15.380
horns kids and goats and that does seem too obvious not to have been deliberate but i got

00:54:15.380 --> 00:54:22.280
very distracted by the fact that he is called kid i know where you're going that was right yeah

00:54:22.780 --> 00:54:29.240
i i'm surprised we haven't discussed diamonds forever already he is called kid and she is

00:54:29.460 --> 00:54:35.980
called win i know it's not wint and kid and i know from the credits that his name is spelt with

00:54:36.000 --> 00:54:45.960
but that cannot be a coincidence and yet i can't see diamonds are forever well they were sadists

00:54:46.300 --> 00:54:53.100
and they were presumably lovers yes and then the book they definitely were homosexuals there was

00:54:53.140 --> 00:55:00.280
just implied in the movie yeah guys it's like come on are you guys are you guys playing with us now

00:55:01.800 --> 00:55:05.940
just drawing this stuff out to see if you can get people to draw conspiracy theories.

00:55:06.820 --> 00:55:11.320
I really do think RTD is poking our nose.

00:55:13.740 --> 00:55:14.440
I really do.

00:55:15.080 --> 00:55:16.300
He's trolling us.

00:55:16.680 --> 00:55:17.700
He's trolling people.

00:55:18.440 --> 00:55:20.420
Putting Susan in it is trolling people.

00:55:21.340 --> 00:55:23.520
Putting the Ronnie in it is trolling people.

00:55:23.940 --> 00:55:24.480
The fans.

00:55:24.810 --> 00:55:26.100
It just is.

00:55:28.200 --> 00:55:29.700
It's not going to be there for good reason.

00:55:29.820 --> 00:55:36.620
while we're talking about hellions i'm going to i'm going to give another reason why i mean i

00:55:36.650 --> 00:55:43.140
thought one of the things that helped me enjoy this episode so much was excellent casting and

00:55:43.800 --> 00:55:49.260
i i i mean i try to have try to avoid seeing what people thought of the episode but i've seen some

00:55:49.360 --> 00:55:57.040
kind of some criticism of of freddie fox's kid i really enjoyed his performance i thought it was

00:55:57.540 --> 00:56:05.680
spot on there was a kind of level of of bond villainy there and i i did kind of feel like it

00:56:05.820 --> 00:56:13.720
was it it justified because of the kind of scale of numbers and also the casual disregard that he

00:56:13.960 --> 00:56:19.940
had for that did kind of justify the anger that it provoked in the doctor there's something

00:56:20.060 --> 00:56:32.160
incredibly powerful about him and his his kind of um complete disdain for everyone that it's the

00:56:32.440 --> 00:56:37.280
opposite of you know last week i was saying i didn't feel like the the proprietor whatever the

00:56:37.340 --> 00:56:48.180
barber was called had enough of that kind of villain charisma to to really feel like he was

00:56:48.840 --> 00:56:57.320
he was kind of sufficiently threatening to the doctor. Whereas this guy, I don't know,

00:56:57.680 --> 00:57:03.900
it was one of those kind of understated performances that made me really react.

00:57:04.080 --> 00:57:10.620
It made me really react. And I enjoyed that a lot. Okay. So let's take a step back here,

00:57:10.740 --> 00:57:13.260
because you just crossed something in my mind.

00:57:14.000 --> 00:57:19.720
Al in Robot Revolution is an incel,

00:57:19.760 --> 00:57:25.420
but he's also basically a guy who feels underappreciated.

00:57:25.880 --> 00:57:28.720
You know, he's got a huge chip on his shoulder.

00:57:29.380 --> 00:57:34.260
The barber was a guy who didn't feel he was getting the recognition

00:57:34.800 --> 00:57:38.940
or getting his importance of his contributions out.

00:57:39.340 --> 00:57:44.580
This guy is kind of in that same mold.

00:57:45.140 --> 00:57:50.540
He's a loser that has a chip on his shoulder a mile wide.

00:57:50.550 --> 00:58:04.860
And I think he did a great job portraying it, but I thought nothing of him other than a weasely little word redacted who has taken on this anger towards what's been done to
him.

00:58:04.960 --> 00:58:12.340
But you just don't get to killing three trillion people without being truly a piece of work.

00:58:13.080 --> 00:58:13.700
Conrad too.

00:58:14.120 --> 00:58:14.460
Yeah.

00:58:15.260 --> 00:58:20.120
But I think there is a difference here.

00:58:20.200 --> 00:58:24.600
I think maybe partly it's Wynne that puts that across.

00:58:26.220 --> 00:58:32.500
Because she is part of this.

00:58:32.780 --> 00:58:42.460
And I think the difference is that the way in which the Hellions have been treated is an abomination and despicable.

00:58:42.860 --> 00:58:51.820
And again, you kind of see this in the, you know, we said there, I don't think that there is any specific example of what this is about.

00:58:52.100 --> 00:58:59.540
But in any number of these kind of situations where the British or other kind of colonialist

00:58:59.690 --> 00:59:02.920
powers have occupied a country or whatever, they've had to put down terrorists.

00:59:03.220 --> 00:59:09.360
These things create kind of resistance, and that resistance often takes very unpalatable

00:59:09.760 --> 00:59:09.880
forms.

00:59:10.880 --> 00:59:17.800
And it's not that you necessarily condone terrorism by saying, you know what, actually,

00:59:17.800 --> 00:59:19.720
I don't know what I would do in that situation.

00:59:20.500 --> 00:59:23.620
This is obviously completely heinous.

00:59:23.760 --> 00:59:26.180
The scale of it is mind-boggling and everything.

00:59:26.540 --> 00:59:29.040
But he's not like Al.

00:59:29.220 --> 00:59:34.920
He's not like Zababa, where I think it's just about his ego being bruised.

00:59:35.100 --> 00:59:38.380
There is something else within this.

00:59:38.720 --> 00:59:40.040
He's a piece of work, for sure.

00:59:40.300 --> 00:59:43.100
But I don't know that he's quite the same as they are.

00:59:43.440 --> 00:59:46.940
I think there's a theme there, though, this year.

00:59:47.620 --> 00:59:49.640
But they're not getting what they want.

00:59:50.260 --> 00:59:54.780
He's not getting what he wants, which is recognition of what's happened to his people.

00:59:57.820 --> 00:59:58.220
There's something.

00:59:58.940 --> 01:00:02.440
Conrad wanted recognition from his mom that he wasn't a twerp.

01:00:02.940 --> 01:00:03.960
I don't know what Al was.

01:00:05.660 --> 01:00:06.800
Recognition he wasn't.

01:00:07.560 --> 01:00:17.400
I took something slightly different, which was the way in which Kidd responded to what's happened to the Hellions was to try and wipe out three trillion people.

01:00:18.300 --> 01:00:25.880
a kind of form of exercising hard power if you like and the the kind of resolution to the episode

01:00:26.880 --> 01:00:33.280
involved cora singing a song about what had happened to the hellion people revealing revealing a truth

01:00:33.620 --> 01:00:40.780
that the corporate overlords had tried to suppress and that's a that's a kind of a suggestion that

01:00:41.100 --> 01:00:46.979
there are better more peaceful ways of doing things it's a it's through song through eurovision

01:00:47.140 --> 01:00:52.680
through soft power well through soft power yeah through through through the through the careful

01:00:52.960 --> 01:00:59.140
and legitimate exercise of of soft power you know that's what i thought it was about you say that

01:00:59.140 --> 01:01:06.020
the whole three trillion people is heinous okay but we don't actually know how many people are

01:01:06.020 --> 01:01:11.899
in the galaxy i mean that could be a day's worth of people dead in car accidents for all we know

01:01:12.400 --> 01:01:17.760
it might not be that it might not be that big of it i there is a there is a line you just don't

01:01:17.880 --> 01:01:21.700
care because they're all eurovision i mean stellavision they're all eurovision fans that's

01:01:21.730 --> 01:01:28.780
right i mean if they're watching eurovision well winner uh no they no but i'll i'll i'll

01:01:29.870 --> 01:01:36.419
there is a there is a line because i i try to keep this in my i try to keep this in in my heart

01:01:36.440 --> 01:01:41.820
if you will and it not not because i'm planning to go out killing people or anything like that

01:01:42.600 --> 01:01:48.660
but i try to keep there is an episode of star trek star trek that that the the the immunity

01:01:48.960 --> 01:01:56.740
syndrome and in that episode 300 vulcans are killed in an instant and dr mccoy is having a

01:01:56.940 --> 01:02:02.579
conversation with spock and he's like but but 300 people were killed all at once don't you feel

01:02:02.600 --> 01:02:08.720
anything? And Spock, and I don't have the exact words here in front of me, but Spock responds

01:02:09.520 --> 01:02:18.760
to the effect of how it's strange that humans are more appalled by the death of 300 people

01:02:19.420 --> 01:02:25.640
than they are the death of one person. And, you know, you complain about how empty the Vulcan

01:02:25.670 --> 01:02:29.200
heart, how much little room there is in Vulcan heart, but maybe there should be more in yours.

01:02:29.700 --> 01:02:36.900
And it's a very good point because we do, you know, an airplane goes down and 150 people die.

01:02:36.960 --> 01:02:38.440
And we're like, oh, airplanes.

01:02:38.880 --> 01:02:39.420
Oh, my God.

01:02:40.000 --> 01:02:41.240
Like, they're so dangerous.

01:02:42.160 --> 01:02:47.440
But, you know, 500,000 times that are killed in car accidents.

01:02:48.100 --> 01:02:48.920
All time.

01:02:50.100 --> 01:02:51.500
We have this.

01:02:52.360 --> 01:02:56.940
We as humans do have this weird sort of like, oh, we killed two people.

01:02:57.120 --> 01:02:57.740
That's terrible.

01:02:58.140 --> 01:02:59.840
That's much worse than killing one person.

01:03:00.340 --> 01:03:00.640
Is it?

01:03:01.260 --> 01:03:01.720
I don't.

01:03:02.320 --> 01:03:11.780
And I try to keep I try to remind myself whenever we have something where, you know, the horror of it is the sheer number of people killed.

01:03:12.170 --> 01:03:19.140
The horror of it is the fact that somebody wanted to kill or that somebody took up arms to kill someone.

01:03:19.340 --> 01:03:21.420
That is really what you need to go.

01:03:21.460 --> 01:03:35.620
And it's really easy to look at that and go, yeah, the doctor's justified for getting really mad at this guy for trying to kill three trillion people. Should he really be
that much madder than if he just tried to kill one person? I don't know. Should he be three trillion times madder?

01:03:36.400 --> 01:03:47.300
Well, arguably, I mean, because the consequentialists would say, without kind of getting deep into the philosophy of ethics around this, the consequentialists
would say yes, in answer to your question.

01:03:47.790 --> 01:03:59.560
But actually, the subtext of this, well, it's not a subtext, actually, I think it's far more overt than this, is that the reason that he's getting angry is because Keir
has killed one person.

01:04:00.380 --> 01:04:01.240
It's Belinda.

01:04:01.700 --> 01:04:02.740
It's not the three trillion.

01:04:03.090 --> 01:04:04.460
But yeah, there you go.

01:04:05.120 --> 01:04:08.380
I kind of felt it was both, to be fair.

01:04:08.970 --> 01:04:11.040
I kind of felt it was both, but yeah.

01:04:11.700 --> 01:04:14.120
Okay, so just some technicological questions.

01:04:14.320 --> 01:04:20.160
If Earth was destroyed on Belinda Day, and we know Belinda Day was 2025, and they were

01:04:20.250 --> 01:04:28.020
able to recreate Graham Norton from the rubble, what did they recreate Graham Norton from?

01:04:28.680 --> 01:04:32.000
Is there a Graham Norton hologram running around already?

01:04:33.560 --> 01:04:36.360
Did they find a voice tape and a 3D scan of him

01:04:36.400 --> 01:04:38.100
and they were able to turn it into a hologram?

01:04:38.720 --> 01:04:41.860
They got a video recording of the original transmission of Rose.

01:04:44.000 --> 01:04:45.140
Was it that where he cut in?

01:04:45.500 --> 01:04:48.820
No, no, it was Time of Death and Flesh and Angels.

01:04:49.760 --> 01:04:50.700
Oh, it was much later.

01:04:50.920 --> 01:04:51.860
I didn't realize it was.

01:04:53.980 --> 01:04:56.380
It was right at the conclusion of part one of that, yeah.

01:04:56.800 --> 01:04:57.340
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:04:57.480 --> 01:05:04.060
the infamous incident that I'm sure was in RTD's mind when he thought,

01:05:04.160 --> 01:05:06.340
we'll get Graham Norton in this one.

01:05:06.620 --> 01:05:08.580
I did think that was possible.

01:05:08.580 --> 01:05:09.800
And talk about him getting killed.

01:05:10.520 --> 01:05:10.700
Yeah.

01:05:11.040 --> 01:05:18.900
Although I think Graham Norton might also be the most famous British gay person in the United States.

01:05:19.620 --> 01:05:19.980
It's possible.

01:05:20.160 --> 01:05:22.400
I mean, apart from Mr. Humphreys in Are You Being Served?

01:05:23.000 --> 01:05:24.260
But it's possible.

01:05:25.080 --> 01:05:26.800
We don't get the Graham Norton show.

01:05:26.860 --> 01:05:27.860
the top 10.

01:05:28.940 --> 01:05:29.740
I couldn't name them.

01:05:31.720 --> 01:05:33.140
I couldn't name them because frankly,

01:05:33.360 --> 01:05:33.740
most of them,

01:05:33.840 --> 01:05:36.060
I can't tell because they're just people,

01:05:36.860 --> 01:05:38.920
but some of them play it up a little more than others.

01:05:39.260 --> 01:05:40.220
Graham Norton kind of does.

01:05:41.040 --> 01:05:42.220
So if that's the case,

01:05:42.280 --> 01:05:42.980
then how did they,

01:05:43.860 --> 01:05:44.160
again,

01:05:44.480 --> 01:05:46.200
how did they do this with Ryland?

01:05:47.200 --> 01:05:47.600
Why,

01:05:47.720 --> 01:05:47.940
why,

01:05:48.220 --> 01:05:48.460
why did,

01:05:48.900 --> 01:05:49.060
you know,

01:05:49.200 --> 01:05:50.160
assuming it's Eurovision,

01:05:50.680 --> 01:05:55.420
it's actually a continuation of Eurovision as opposed to a completely new song contest.

01:05:55.560 --> 01:05:56.240
And then why would they,

01:05:56.580 --> 01:06:05.160
i think that it is a continue continuation and i feel like linda knows this rylan guy suggests

01:06:05.480 --> 01:06:12.800
that he is from the original contest on earth from her time yes yes so how did they sift that

01:06:13.030 --> 01:06:18.480
body out of the rubble maybe he was stuck in a mavite bubble yeah i don't know i don't know

01:06:18.570 --> 01:06:24.819
because it yeah i've no idea it didn't make much sense but you know i i thought there was a reference

01:06:24.840 --> 01:06:31.960
earlier in the episode and i've only watched it once to to humans and the earth being destroyed

01:06:32.240 --> 01:06:37.920
in 2025 would pretty much wipe out the human race right by the time you get because they're not off

01:06:37.920 --> 01:06:42.780
the planet humans haven't left left the planet right so that doesn't make a whole lot of sense

01:06:42.870 --> 01:06:47.400
nor would it make any sense that anybody would go dig it up and go what are we going to salvage

01:06:47.420 --> 01:06:57.180
from the earth i know eurovision yeah why hasn't susan regenerated by now i mean oh god it's nice

01:06:57.200 --> 01:07:03.900
to see carol and ford but it's wonderful to see carol and ford and you we we talked three years

01:07:03.980 --> 01:07:12.099
ago about how excited i was that william russell what was playing the same character in the same

01:07:12.120 --> 01:07:19.160
TV series after 59 years. And I thought that had to be pretty exceptional. And Carol Ann Ford,

01:07:19.640 --> 01:07:26.480
Carol Ann Ford is playing the same character in the same TV series after 62 years. So that's a

01:07:27.050 --> 01:07:32.900
new record. And at the moment, I'm pretty sure she's going to be in next week as well. So I

01:07:32.910 --> 01:07:39.000
think this is probably going to apply for a while. But at the moment, you can say she was in the

01:07:39.020 --> 01:07:42.740
first episode of doctor who she was in the very most recent episode of doctor who which is

01:07:43.380 --> 01:07:47.300
wonderful and and she'll be probably in the last episode of doctor who in two weeks

01:07:48.060 --> 01:07:52.340
yeah i'm not i'm not hoping that that's a record that she is going to hang on to for ages and ages

01:07:52.540 --> 01:08:01.920
because the show is ending yeah let's see here and of course how would she be here because she

01:08:01.940 --> 01:08:10.580
was left on earth and the earth is destroyed back in 2025 so you know no she no she wasn't left on

01:08:10.760 --> 01:08:17.000
earth before 2025 no she was left on earth after 2025 which doesn't exist because there is no earth

01:08:17.120 --> 01:08:23.420
after 2025 well yes obviously that does kind of create a problem but you know wibbly wobbly

01:08:24.200 --> 01:08:27.660
unless she's a time lord in which case why hasn't she regenerated yet

01:08:28.400 --> 01:08:36.080
maybe she got left after the five doctors i don't know yeah maybe maybe she'd gotten divorced and

01:08:36.339 --> 01:08:41.440
it was you know that that meeting that david campbell guy for a week and then we're like yeah

01:08:42.009 --> 01:08:47.980
we have thanks to to big finish we have some account of involvement in the time war so

01:08:48.440 --> 01:08:53.460
actually you know we we do know a bit of what happened after the dalek invasion and the post

01:08:53.839 --> 01:09:02.560
post-Dalic invasion yeah if our if RTD is is going to acknowledge the the big finish continuity

01:09:03.480 --> 01:09:09.520
speaking of which I obviously did not get my reference to Bang Bang A Boom in this although

01:09:09.980 --> 01:09:14.339
it felt like there wasn't an obvious place where he could have mentioned it so that

01:09:14.799 --> 01:09:23.440
wasn't too bad and as you pointed out Bang Bang A Boom is set during the intergalactic song contest

01:09:23.640 --> 01:09:30.380
and this is the interstellar song contest, which they specifically say is actually only within

01:09:31.200 --> 01:09:39.180
part of our galaxy. So clearly, it has gone from being the Eurovision song contest to the Earth

01:09:39.339 --> 01:09:44.680
song contest to the interstellar song contest, and it will become intergalactic at some point

01:09:44.680 --> 01:09:50.520
in the future. Yeah. There is one other thing I'm going to put in this episode that I'm just

01:09:50.540 --> 01:09:55.880
going to say is a trope I hate. And I just, and I'm, I'm going to, and it's not just from this

01:09:56.020 --> 01:10:03.020
film. It's obviously it's from lots and lots of movies. Gary and Mike will not be a couple in six

01:10:03.200 --> 01:10:07.600
months where we start, you know, you start the film where you've got a couple and they've like

01:10:07.760 --> 01:10:13.120
reached the end of their, they've reached the end of it. They're, they've got those differences that

01:10:13.140 --> 01:10:32.900
Just frankly, if if Gary worked for the intergalactic interstellar song contest in such a massive way and is obviously such a massive fan and gets a booth because he
works at the thing, you're not going to be late.

01:10:33.620 --> 01:10:40.360
Mike is not going to be late unless Mike is a complete jerk off.

01:10:41.180 --> 01:10:49.880
look he is he is not that that is a failed couple i made it on time to the celine dion concert for

01:10:49.880 --> 01:10:57.660
my wife and mike and mike can make it to the freaking interstellar i'd even have to go to

01:10:57.760 --> 01:11:03.320
the interstellar song contest if my wife wanted to go and i'd be there on time because that's what

01:11:03.380 --> 01:11:04.160
you do.

01:11:05.980 --> 01:11:07.180
So this is a couple.

01:11:07.710 --> 01:11:09.380
In fact, he's about to say

01:11:09.480 --> 01:11:11.220
the words. I think maybe we

01:11:11.480 --> 01:11:13.100
ought to have a break

01:11:13.540 --> 01:11:15.140
just like Ross and Rachel. They were

01:11:15.280 --> 01:11:17.120
on a break and

01:11:17.760 --> 01:11:19.400
so they were just

01:11:19.540 --> 01:11:21.400
about to lose this couple. Then they have

01:11:21.460 --> 01:11:23.380
the big exciting adventure and they're like, oh

01:11:23.520 --> 01:11:25.420
lovey-dovey again despite the fact

01:11:25.500 --> 01:11:27.020
that they were both ridiculously

01:11:27.460 --> 01:11:29.400
slutty with the doctor. And I think I can

01:11:29.500 --> 01:11:31.340
use that word okay for men. You just can't use it

01:11:31.340 --> 01:11:33.340
for women. And

01:11:34.260 --> 01:11:38.960
no six months i get a little adrenaline is going to keep them together and then they are done

01:11:39.540 --> 01:11:45.300
they are not a suitable couple apart from the fact that you're obviously still not still not

01:11:45.380 --> 01:11:52.580
over the way friends ended the i i thought it was explicit about how i thought it was explicit about

01:11:52.580 --> 01:12:01.260
how gary and mike had been together for like for ages and ages and they're they're not a failed

01:12:01.280 --> 01:12:08.200
couple. I know people like that, and they've been together for ages and ages. Yeah, I'm not

01:12:08.380 --> 01:12:13.740
convinced. This is standard Hollywood movie trope where the couple get back together by the end of

01:12:13.740 --> 01:12:17.600
the episode because they had an adventure, and they're going to live happily ever after, and I

01:12:17.700 --> 01:12:22.620
hate those. They were a bad couple to begin with, and they're a bad couple coming out the other end

01:12:22.720 --> 01:12:25.640
with a boost of adrenaline. I don't think they're going to change, but I don't think they're going

01:12:25.640 --> 01:12:30.679
to split up, and I don't think the adventure brought them together. I know the trope you're

01:12:30.700 --> 01:12:36.480
talking about i just don't quite feel that fits with what's going on here and i'll tell you

01:12:36.620 --> 01:12:43.640
something else i'm not remotely invested in them either i don't care i'm afraid we're gonna see

01:12:43.780 --> 01:12:50.280
them again in the next episode but i really am along with along with everyone i'm afraid

01:12:50.860 --> 01:12:58.220
yeah the barber will be there obviously conrad who else who else can we poppy obviously poppy

01:12:58.820 --> 01:13:08.780
obviously poppy kid susan both ronnie's yep yep kate mel yeah donna's i don't know they're

01:13:08.780 --> 01:13:15.540
gonna get donna in there yeah i'm not sure about donna rose maybe rose two yeah yeah rose two yeah

01:13:16.540 --> 01:13:22.420
yeah it's it's gonna be the final curtain call we brought everybody in we could

01:13:22.980 --> 01:13:28.800
heck david tenet might be there oh well he's literally just been denying it this week so

01:13:28.880 --> 01:13:34.540
it's perfectly possible yes oh yeah yeah absolutely that he's totally in it he's been denying his

01:13:35.000 --> 01:13:39.160
words were if if i was going to be in doctor who i would definitely tell you about it so

01:13:39.500 --> 01:13:45.140
i think it's perfectly possible he's in it yeah that's not a denial he didn't say well no it is

01:13:45.200 --> 01:13:50.320
a denial it's just it's a lie no no no no see it's a weasel word if i were going to be a doctor i

01:13:50.340 --> 01:13:54.500
would tell you about it i wouldn't necessarily tell you about it today but in six months i will

01:13:54.680 --> 01:13:59.380
definitely tell you i can totally justify that lie i can totally justify that lie yeah

01:14:00.520 --> 01:14:07.500
um totally do you have anything else about this episode apart from glitter canon well i think for

01:14:07.580 --> 01:14:12.940
what for one thing we should we should pick up on something that you you mentioned before that i i

01:14:13.120 --> 01:14:21.280
hadn't been aware of and that listeners who don't follow the FA Cup avidly might need closure on,

01:14:21.420 --> 01:14:29.680
which is that the Cup did not overrun. And this episode in the UK was broadcast on BBC One,

01:14:30.090 --> 01:14:36.760
just like every other episode of Doctor Who has been for the past 62 years. But I did find a quote

01:14:36.760 --> 01:14:44.780
from RTD that I quite liked. And you're going to have to use your bleeper, I'm afraid, because he

01:14:45.350 --> 01:14:50.240
was asked when he wanted to take the risk of scheduling on this day. And he said,

01:14:50.300 --> 01:14:53.520
that's the sexiest f***ing risk I've ever heard in my life. Let's do it.

01:14:53.920 --> 01:14:58.460
Yeah, that sounds like him. That sounds like him.

01:14:58.900 --> 01:14:59.160
Yeah.

01:15:00.300 --> 01:15:00.680
Anything else?

01:15:01.560 --> 01:15:07.340
There's one other thing, and it's partly I want to pick up something I meant to mention last week,

01:15:07.840 --> 01:15:14.920
but this week is even more appropriate to mention it, which is Murray Gold, because I was struck

01:15:15.380 --> 01:15:22.920
listening to last week's episode, as I watched it, how we have complained about him doing a lot

01:15:22.920 --> 01:15:28.560
to save the planet during the past couple of seasons by recycling his earlier cues,

01:15:28.840 --> 01:15:32.380
including leitmotifs for other characters, for new characters.

01:15:32.900 --> 01:15:35.920
And also laying them on thick to try to save the story.

01:15:36.190 --> 01:15:44.920
Yeah. Last week, it did feel like there was quite a lot of interesting and appropriate score alongside the episode,

01:15:45.150 --> 01:15:46.700
which I really appreciated.

01:15:46.770 --> 01:15:57.159
And obviously, this week, he was doing presumably what it was that caused him to have to recycle all of the previous cues

01:15:57.180 --> 01:16:01.220
because he was writing all of these Eurovision numbers,

01:16:01.500 --> 01:16:02.600
including, I think I read,

01:16:02.760 --> 01:16:04.500
that he'd written the lyrics for one of them,

01:16:04.570 --> 01:16:07.840
although most of them were written by RTD and Juno Dawson.

01:16:08.460 --> 01:16:09.720
The songs I thought were quite good,

01:16:09.800 --> 01:16:12.060
not as good as the songs in Bang Bang A Boom,

01:16:12.160 --> 01:16:13.300
which were really good,

01:16:13.520 --> 01:16:17.760
but these sounded quite plausible Eurovision things

01:16:17.890 --> 01:16:20.160
to my non-Eurovision fan ears.

01:16:20.840 --> 01:16:22.960
Again, I think the only two Eurovision songs

01:16:23.120 --> 01:16:24.840
that I'm aware of that I know...

01:16:25.040 --> 01:16:25.860
Puppet on a String?

01:16:26.600 --> 01:16:26.760
Congratulations.

01:16:26.860 --> 01:16:35.300
by lulu the one by lulu in the 60s yeah did yeah i what's that i don't know i have to look it up

01:16:36.480 --> 01:16:42.500
you don't know it that well then do you what song did lulu perform you're asking chat gpt

01:16:43.800 --> 01:16:51.920
no just as well i'm asking is this thing lulu performed the song boom bang bang of course i

01:16:51.940 --> 01:16:57.540
should have known that i should have known that which must be where bang bang a boom came from

01:16:58.240 --> 01:17:03.260
it wasn't it was absolutely where back where where boom bang a bang came from i think that

01:17:03.780 --> 01:17:10.480
i think that the uk certainly possibly may have won it again recently but when i was younger i

01:17:10.600 --> 01:17:16.480
remember only having won the eurovision song contest twice and i think was boom bang a bang

01:17:16.540 --> 01:17:21.700
one certainly puppet on a string one i say certainly it probably didn't i don't know what

01:17:21.700 --> 01:17:28.500
i'm talking about we needed a euro joint winners expert this week four four joint winners good

01:17:28.720 --> 01:17:34.540
lord yeah each receiving 18 points and reached number two on the uk singles chart now the other

01:17:34.540 --> 01:17:40.840
one that i know is abba's waterloo was also a eurovision that wouldn't be the uk would it

01:17:41.080 --> 01:17:50.260
no but i don't care see it's country thing i don't care i like abba i like lulu to some degree

01:17:50.460 --> 01:17:58.560
you like good lord yeah i think you're gonna i'm i'm 60 i grew up in the 70s definitely disco

01:17:58.940 --> 01:18:06.360
is there is is definitely there so waterloo and that one uh and the other one i don't know what

01:18:06.380 --> 01:18:13.620
the song is but let's see olivia newton john well sang a song that year she's one of yours

01:18:14.480 --> 01:18:22.280
no she's one of australia's is she okay yes it came in fourth let's see what that song was

01:18:22.700 --> 01:18:27.880
she performed long live love olivia newton john performed the song long live love as the united

01:18:28.140 --> 01:18:35.500
kingdoms entry i know she's australian yeah she she sang for britain in 74 came in fourth

01:18:36.020 --> 01:18:37.240
with a song I've never heard of.

01:18:40.160 --> 01:18:41.120
I don't want to look.

01:18:41.400 --> 01:18:43.820
Anyway, we have,

01:18:44.440 --> 01:18:45.580
I don't know how to condense some of this,

01:18:45.720 --> 01:18:47.120
maybe get rid of some of the typing sounds,

01:18:47.360 --> 01:18:48.980
but I think it's all fascinating,

01:18:49.230 --> 01:18:51.420
possibly more interesting than the episode in many ways.

01:18:51.860 --> 01:18:53.880
Tune in to Fusion Patrol to listen to us

01:18:54.140 --> 01:18:57.220
Googling Eurovision winners from the 1970s.

01:18:59.280 --> 01:19:01.520
Or losers in Olivia Newton-John's case.

01:19:03.460 --> 01:19:04.740
Fourth place, that's not even,

01:19:05.060 --> 01:19:26.400
Yeah, that's something. All right. Well, I think I can say something very unusual for an episode of Fusion Patrol. I mean, we have while we're doing the Doctor Who
season, I'm able to say, you know, join Simon and I next week as we talk about and then tell you which episode of Doctor Who we're going to be talking about because because
we're doing these.

01:19:27.000 --> 01:19:30.400
But we are not doing an episode next week.

01:19:30.860 --> 01:19:32.680
But I can still tell you what it's going to be.

01:19:33.100 --> 01:19:38.320
Next week, Ben and I are going to be looking at the movie Barbarella.

01:19:42.620 --> 01:19:45.700
Which, you know, spoilers, Eugene was really keen on.

01:19:47.840 --> 01:19:48.100
Yeah.

01:19:48.660 --> 01:19:53.600
But possibly we should mention that we will be talking about Doctor Who again in two weeks, though.

01:19:54.820 --> 01:19:55.560
That's not it.

01:19:55.680 --> 01:19:56.280
We're not giving up.

01:19:56.860 --> 01:20:01.100
No, no, we're not going to give up right on the eve of a great plane wreck.

01:20:02.720 --> 01:20:05.400
A catastrophic planetary impact wreck.

01:20:05.640 --> 01:20:07.300
That's what we're not going to give up on the eve of.

01:20:08.040 --> 01:20:09.460
Simon, thank you for joining me.

01:20:10.120 --> 01:20:11.080
It's a pleasure as always.

01:20:12.340 --> 01:20:16.680
Listeners, I do hope you'll join us all again next time on Fusion Patrol.

01:20:19.500 --> 01:20:21.560
You've been listening to Fusion Patrol.

01:20:22.320 --> 01:20:22.880
Thanks for listening.

01:20:24.920 --> 01:20:28.300
If you've enjoyed this episode, we hope you'll consider supporting us at

01:20:28.640 --> 01:20:33.400
buymeacoffee.com slash Fusion Patrol or patreon.com slash Fusion Patrol.

01:20:34.260 --> 01:20:39.760
For our monthly Patreon subscribers, we're currently running a special series on Babylon 5.

01:20:41.860 --> 01:20:46.280
Come join the conversation and find other content at fusionpatrol.com.

01:20:46.820 --> 01:20:51.940
And we're back on social media, where you can also follow us on Mastodon and the Fediverse.

01:20:52.680 --> 01:20:56.540
Our address is at podcast at fusion patrol dot com.

01:20:59.080 --> 01:21:01.940
Our music is Fight the Future by Amber Wolf.

01:21:04.720 --> 01:21:06.940
This has been a Lone Locust production.