WEBVTT 00:00:07.740 --> 00:00:11.620 You're listening to Fusion Patrol, a Lister-supported podcast. 00:00:14.440 --> 00:00:20.580 Each week we take a single episode of a science fiction TV series, movie, or audio and overanalyze 00:00:20.640 --> 00:00:22.420 it to within an inch of its life. 00:00:23.960 --> 00:00:25.180 Welcome to the discussion. 00:00:31.160 --> 00:00:34.480 Hello and welcome to another episode of Fusion Patrol, I'm Eugene. 00:00:35.160 --> 00:00:35.860 And I'm Simon. 00:00:36.660 --> 00:00:46.260 And tonight we are looking at the newly restored, animated Doctor Who adventure, The Savages. 00:00:46.940 --> 00:00:51.260 This is a four part story, and the synopsis goes something like this. 00:00:51.800 --> 00:00:55.520 Part 1 The Doctor, Steven, and Dodo arrive on a desolate 00:00:55.860 --> 00:00:55.940 planet. 00:00:56.720 --> 00:01:01.600 The Doctor, however, is certain they've landed in a future age of great peace and 00:01:01.720 --> 00:01:02.200 prosperity. 00:01:02.860 --> 00:01:04.940 He wanders off to confirm his opinion. 00:01:05.600 --> 00:01:10.480 All the while, both groups are unaware that they are being observed by the animal-skin-wearing, 00:01:10.700 --> 00:01:14.580 spear-wielding titular savages who apparently aim to kill them. 00:01:15.460 --> 00:01:18.740 The Doctor is found by space-age guards and welcomed. 00:01:19.360 --> 00:01:24.120 civilization has apparently been tracking the TARDIS's path through space and time 00:01:24.460 --> 00:01:29.620 and anticipated its arrival. The Doctor is taken to the city and he makes arrangements 00:01:29.700 --> 00:01:34.360 for the guards to collect Steven and Dodo. In the city, the Doctor is welcomed and made 00:01:34.440 --> 00:01:39.020 a city councillor, while Steven and Dodo are given a guided tour of the fabulous city, 00:01:39.260 --> 00:01:44.340 but their guides, Avon and Flower, aren't very forthcoming with answers to their questions. 00:01:44.840 --> 00:01:49.340 As the Doctor begins asking questions about the nature of the process that made all this 00:01:49.340 --> 00:01:54.960 we see the guards in the wastelands hunting, capturing, and returning a young savage woman, 00:01:55.220 --> 00:01:56.440 Nanina, to the city. 00:01:57.040 --> 00:02:01.300 Dodo, dissatisfied with the answers they're getting, slips off to investigate on her own, 00:02:01.700 --> 00:02:04.140 while the doctor begins to learn the secret of the city. 00:02:04.620 --> 00:02:11.560 For them to achieve their greatness, they must tap the vital life force of a very special kind of prey animal. 00:02:12.200 --> 00:02:16.440 Dodo stumbles across just one such prey animal, an old, weak savage, 00:02:16.440 --> 00:02:20.200 who has been tapped of his life force and released back into the wild. 00:02:21.240 --> 00:02:21.660 Part 2 00:02:22.220 --> 00:02:27.480 Dodo, at first scared by the savage, realizes he is unwell and helps him exit the city. 00:02:27.900 --> 00:02:33.140 She continues back along the corridor he came from and enters the extraction laboratory 00:02:33.340 --> 00:02:35.220 as they are depleting Nanina. 00:02:35.900 --> 00:02:41.440 Dodo, mistaken for a savage in strange clothes, is assumed to be there to be extracted. 00:02:41.920 --> 00:02:44.300 She fights back to the surprise of the technicians. 00:02:44.740 --> 00:02:48.420 Senta, leader of the lab, realizes she's one of the travelers. 00:02:49.020 --> 00:02:53.600 Steven alerts the Doctor that Dodo is missing, but he seems unconcerned and goes back to 00:02:53.780 --> 00:02:56.900 listening to the Elders explain how their civilization works. 00:02:57.400 --> 00:03:02.620 A guard helps investigate and finds Dodo, returning her and Steven to the Elder's 00:03:02.740 --> 00:03:06.560 chamber, where the Doctor is once again uninterested in what she saw. 00:03:07.420 --> 00:03:11.640 He tells the Elders he wishes to get some notes from his TARDIS, and the trio depart 00:03:11.740 --> 00:03:12.280 to collect them. 00:03:12.740 --> 00:03:16.320 Jano, the head elder, has Edel, the head guard, follow them. 00:03:16.910 --> 00:03:21.560 Once outside the city, the doctor explains he didn't want Dodo saying what she'd 00:03:21.700 --> 00:03:23.000 seen in front of the elders. 00:03:23.510 --> 00:03:27.720 They come across the savage that Dodo helped leave the city, and the doctor sends Steven 00:03:27.800 --> 00:03:29.580 and Dodo to the TARDIS to get medicine. 00:03:30.100 --> 00:03:34.500 Edel catches up with the doctor and treats the ailing savage as less than human, which 00:03:34.680 --> 00:03:35.580 outrages the doctor. 00:03:36.200 --> 00:03:39.520 Edel uses his zap gun to make the doctor return to the city. 00:03:40.420 --> 00:03:44.840 and Dodo return and give the medicine to the savage, thinking the doctor has just wandered 00:03:45.020 --> 00:03:49.760 off again. More savages are watching them, and debate killing them, but when they make 00:03:49.840 --> 00:03:54.400 their move, a combination of caution and the words of the now-recovering savage that they 00:03:54.480 --> 00:03:58.360 helped keeps them alive, and they learn more about what happened to the doctor. 00:03:58.850 --> 00:04:04.240 In the city, the doctor makes his displeasure fully known. He finds their system of extracting 00:04:04.320 --> 00:04:09.480 life force from one group of people to benefit another group to be utterly detestable, and 00:04:09.340 --> 00:04:10.600 He will not participate. 00:04:11.320 --> 00:04:14.560 Jano sends him to the extraction lab to have his life force extracted. 00:04:15.200 --> 00:04:20.280 Despite his alien physiology, the extraction process appears to be working on the Doctor. 00:04:20.720 --> 00:04:23.520 Part 3 The life force extraction of the Doctor is 00:04:23.720 --> 00:04:26.580 complete and was an unqualified success. 00:04:27.040 --> 00:04:27.520 Probably. 00:04:28.380 --> 00:04:32.800 Jano arrives to congratulate Senta and then he informs him that he will be partaking of 00:04:32.840 --> 00:04:35.120 the Doctor's life force personally. 00:04:35.820 --> 00:04:41.120 For purely altruistic reasons, of course, he wouldn't want to risk anyone else's 00:04:41.340 --> 00:04:43.200 life with an untested procedure. 00:04:44.000 --> 00:04:48.460 Jal, the leader of the savages, will help Steven and Dodo hide, although there are others, 00:04:48.720 --> 00:04:52.680 such as the hot-headed idiot Tor, who does not agree with helping them. 00:04:53.240 --> 00:04:56.700 They have discovered that the guards are now searching for Steven and Dodo. 00:04:57.210 --> 00:05:01.020 They go back to their caves, the one place the guards will not go. 00:05:01.680 --> 00:05:05.120 But one guard, Exsours, does follow. 00:05:05.760 --> 00:05:09.820 Steven uses a mirror to reflect the light gun's beam back at Exsours, taking him prisoner. 00:05:10.580 --> 00:05:14.280 Armed with a gun, Steven, Dodo, and Chawl return to the city to rescue the Doctor. 00:05:14.920 --> 00:05:19.680 Jano has been infused with the Doctor's life force and possibly something more because 00:05:20.060 --> 00:05:27.380 he is acting as if he is the Doctor and Senta, the brilliant scientist, is too stupid to 00:05:27.640 --> 00:05:27.820 notice. 00:05:28.420 --> 00:05:29.820 Perhaps they should rename him Dodo. 00:05:31.040 --> 00:05:36.460 Left alone, Jano prepares to destroy the equipment, but recovers his personality enough to stop 00:05:36.800 --> 00:05:37.820 before doing any damage. 00:05:38.800 --> 00:05:43.100 Now inside the city, the guards are monitoring Steven and Dodo's progress down the corridor. 00:05:43.560 --> 00:05:47.420 They use the Doctor as bait and trap them as gas fills the corridor. 00:05:48.180 --> 00:05:48.640 Part 4. 00:05:49.240 --> 00:05:53.920 Steven, Dodo, and the nearly catatonic Doctor are trapped in the corridor and things look 00:05:54.000 --> 00:05:55.820 bleak until Jano releases them. 00:05:56.420 --> 00:06:00.400 Realizing that someone has betrayed them, Edol finds Jano near the door controls and 00:06:00.280 --> 00:06:05.760 accuses him. Jano is outraged at the accusation and personally takes command of the expedition 00:06:05.810 --> 00:06:10.240 to track down and recover the strangers. Edel insists on going along. 00:06:10.870 --> 00:06:15.360 In the wilderness, the trio encounter Chal and he leads them back to the caves while 00:06:15.440 --> 00:06:20.360 Steven tries to hold off their pursuers. He does a fair job of it, but when Jano has the 00:06:20.400 --> 00:06:25.020 opportunity to capture him, he hesitates and Steven gets away. They all make it to the 00:06:25.020 --> 00:06:30.260 caves, but Jano, Edel, and the guards are nearby. Jano trips and puts himself in a position 00:06:30.260 --> 00:06:35.460 shot but a now recovered doctor stops Steven telling him he must not harm Jano. 00:06:36.140 --> 00:06:39.700 Jano sends the rest of the guards back to the city over Edel's protests. 00:06:40.340 --> 00:06:46.000 The doctor informs everyone that they cannot leave the planet until they destroy this evil 00:06:46.040 --> 00:06:52.260 society by destroying the transference machine and he will do so with help from inside the 00:06:52.440 --> 00:06:52.580 city. 00:06:53.220 --> 00:06:54.440 That night Jano arrives. 00:06:54.800 --> 00:06:59.040 Not only has he absorbed some of the doctor's intelligence, he's also absorbed some of 00:06:58.820 --> 00:07:03.840 the Doctor's sense of right and wrong, and he realizes that they must destroy the transference 00:07:04.020 --> 00:07:04.220 machine. 00:07:04.820 --> 00:07:08.340 Exsaurce, who is still their prisoner, has heard this and escapes. 00:07:09.020 --> 00:07:12.200 Nannina chases after him and pleads with him not to say anything. 00:07:12.580 --> 00:07:15.600 She reminds him that he does, after all, owe her his life. 00:07:16.080 --> 00:07:18.920 In the city, Edel confers with Senta and the Elders. 00:07:19.380 --> 00:07:23.880 Senta tells about the transference from the Doctor, and Edel is convinced Jano will betray 00:07:23.980 --> 00:07:26.800 them, so he assumes emergency leadership powers. 00:07:27.620 --> 00:07:30.200 Just then Jano arrives with everyone under his control. 00:07:30.860 --> 00:07:33.420 When he learns what Edel has done, he has him arrested. 00:07:34.080 --> 00:07:38.360 He then seals the doors and tries to convince the others that the equipment must be destroyed, 00:07:38.580 --> 00:07:41.720 but when they refuse, he starts destroying the machines himself. 00:07:42.220 --> 00:07:47.500 The so-called captives join in and overwhelm the others, joyously destroying the equipment. 00:07:48.000 --> 00:07:51.240 Exsaurce has the opportunity to stop it, but he does not. 00:07:51.700 --> 00:07:53.700 Edel breaks back in, intent on killing them. 00:07:54.120 --> 00:07:56.540 He and Steven struggle, and Edel is killed. 00:07:57.160 --> 00:08:01.940 the society's hold on the Savages destroyed, the two sides suggest that Stephen be the 00:08:02.180 --> 00:08:03.520 man to lead them into the future. 00:08:04.140 --> 00:08:06.740 Encouraged by the Doctor, he agrees to stay. 00:08:07.320 --> 00:08:07.800 The End. 00:08:08.020 --> 00:08:10.740 That was far longer than I thought it was going to be. 00:08:12.640 --> 00:08:14.420 So the Savages. 00:08:15.540 --> 00:08:18.080 Another missing story back in the stable. 00:08:18.660 --> 00:08:18.940 Sort of. 00:08:19.760 --> 00:08:20.680 What did you think? 00:08:21.840 --> 00:08:24.600 I did not know anything about this story. 00:08:25.100 --> 00:08:26.700 So I kind of came to it. 00:08:27.040 --> 00:08:34.380 with relatively few expectations. It's a first Doctor story, not my favourite Doctor, with 00:08:35.080 --> 00:08:43.120 Stephen and Dodo, who are not companions who have particularly stuck with me. I really enjoyed this 00:08:43.360 --> 00:08:50.200 actually. I mean, it's not the greatest Doctor Who story ever, but it was a solid story, very 00:08:51.120 --> 00:09:00.140 enjoyable to watch, extremely political, no kind of, I mean obviously the kind of sci-fi element 00:09:00.360 --> 00:09:06.740 is it's a futuristic situation with a magic machine that does the the extracting but no kind of 00:09:07.940 --> 00:09:21.100 monsters or bug-eyed aliens in it. Yeah, the kind of thing I really appreciated. It reminded me a 00:09:21.100 --> 00:09:25.320 I don't think this was as good as Enemy of the World, but you know, it's still got that 00:09:25.590 --> 00:09:30.720 sense of discovering a Doctor Who story that really is better than some of the ones that 00:09:30.800 --> 00:09:31.860 people go on and on about. 00:09:32.510 --> 00:09:42.080 Yeah, I think that's fair. I, I, I don't know. I, I, um, at one point in the 80s, and, and 00:09:42.140 --> 00:09:46.380 I think we've mentioned this before in the podcast, I don't do the recreations and I 00:09:46.260 --> 00:09:47.840 I don't do the telesnaps. 00:09:48.170 --> 00:09:50.460 I just, okay, but I'll read the target novels. 00:09:50.810 --> 00:09:52.460 And this one was novelized. 00:09:53.200 --> 00:09:57.240 And at one point I did in fact have all target novelizations and that would 00:09:57.240 --> 00:09:58.400 have been in the early eighties. 00:09:59.040 --> 00:10:00.460 But I can't find this one. 00:10:01.620 --> 00:10:04.380 And it was one of the later eighties ones. 00:10:04.540 --> 00:10:08.080 Well, close to the mid eighties, I think 84, 85, something like that. 00:10:08.660 --> 00:10:11.820 And I'm wondering if I've just never even read the book. 00:10:12.320 --> 00:10:15.380 I, I just don't remember anything about it. 00:10:15.740 --> 00:10:20.780 And savages is always just dismissed as the savages. 00:10:21.760 --> 00:10:23.320 You know, no one no one 00:10:24.280 --> 00:10:28.520 no one waxes poetic about, oh, we need the savages back. 00:10:28.860 --> 00:10:31.100 So I had no clue what it was. 00:10:32.220 --> 00:10:36.300 And I have seen scant few pictures of it, 00:10:36.300 --> 00:10:39.920 although I've seen a few since I did the review and have some thoughts on that. 00:10:40.500 --> 00:10:43.820 But yeah, it wasn't it wasn't bad. 00:10:44.340 --> 00:10:49.900 It was, it was, it was better than all of last season's Doctor Who. 00:10:50.540 --> 00:10:56.160 Um, but, uh, yeah, yeah, I, I get, was it wasn't bad at all. 00:10:56.880 --> 00:11:01.900 Wasn't fantastic, but yeah, it was, as you say, there's some political aspect to it. 00:11:02.160 --> 00:11:09.399 Um, and there's certainly, I don't know if, I don't know if there is another 00:11:09.400 --> 00:11:16.260 episode that I can recall where the first Doctor really takes that, "There are some 00:11:16.360 --> 00:11:21.080 things that are evil in this universe that need to be fought" attitude. Right? I mean, 00:11:21.160 --> 00:11:27.880 that's a famous line from Troughton, but Hartnell definitely had a sense of justice, 00:11:28.040 --> 00:11:32.180 but I don't recall him ever standing up and saying it like he does in this one. 00:11:32.180 --> 00:11:41.680 It certainly takes a while to come to the fore, given that early on he's quite sort 00:11:41.740 --> 00:11:43.780 of self-interested, shall we say. 00:11:44.420 --> 00:11:45.960 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:11:48.120 --> 00:11:53.340 Is this done by the same producer that did the early Troutons? 00:11:53.880 --> 00:11:56.340 Yes, Innes Lloyd, isn't it? 00:11:56.420 --> 00:12:01.660 I think he was around through the transition into the Trouton era. 00:12:02.100 --> 00:12:07.500 So he probably did moon base, which is where that also comes from the some things that 00:12:07.500 --> 00:12:08.140 must be fought. 00:12:08.570 --> 00:12:14.460 So I wonder if that's something that falls within his keen on on. 00:12:15.980 --> 00:12:17.860 I have I asked you a question. 00:12:17.860 --> 00:12:18.800 You didn't answer it. 00:12:19.800 --> 00:12:21.540 Not during the podcast before. 00:12:22.110 --> 00:12:23.820 Is Dodo supposed to be dumb? 00:12:24.600 --> 00:12:30.579 We consider Dodos to be stupid animals, not saying that they were just not adapted for 00:12:30.580 --> 00:12:37.160 having somebody club them. And, but you know, we, we, it's not as common as it used to be, 00:12:37.280 --> 00:12:41.500 but go back to the sixties and seventies, calling someone a dodo was you're stupid. 00:12:42.060 --> 00:12:46.600 So the name of a companion dodo, and I know it's supposed to be some probably Dorothy, 00:12:47.460 --> 00:12:52.020 I don't know, but there's, you know, there were, there were times in the celestial 00:12:52.180 --> 00:12:59.060 toy maker where she was really stupid. And in this episode, I don't think that she was 00:12:59.060 --> 00:13:07.200 too bad, but Steven's line, even Dodo couldn't be that dumb, makes me think that actually 00:13:07.220 --> 00:13:08.760 was intended that way. 00:13:09.180 --> 00:13:11.660 The doctor is carrying an idiot with him. 00:13:12.120 --> 00:13:15.060 And I don't know, because there's so few Dodo stories. 00:13:15.980 --> 00:13:22.720 And I'm guessing that in his lawyer didn't particularly care for Dodo because of how 00:13:22.840 --> 00:13:24.420 Dodo got dumped. 00:13:26.720 --> 00:13:34.800 But yeah, well, you've got to presume he didn't care much for Stephen or indeed Hartnell either. 00:13:35.380 --> 00:13:38.740 No, no one in this serial is sticking around for long after this. 00:13:39.440 --> 00:13:44.140 No, but I mean, Hartnell, we've got reasons and I have no idea why Stephen left. 00:13:44.380 --> 00:13:45.780 Maybe he was, he wanted to go. 00:13:46.000 --> 00:13:47.120 We know Dodo was not. 00:13:47.240 --> 00:13:47.740 No, he didn't. 00:13:48.590 --> 00:13:49.200 He did not. 00:13:49.380 --> 00:13:49.940 Oh, okay. 00:13:50.460 --> 00:13:50.740 Okay. 00:13:50.740 --> 00:13:52.360 He didn't, he didn't want to go. 00:13:52.700 --> 00:13:57.840 Contract had ended, but he didn't want to go and the producer refused to renew it. 00:13:58.420 --> 00:14:04.500 Hardenwell wanted him to stay and the producer wasn't interested, essentially. 00:14:05.300 --> 00:14:05.380 Okay. 00:14:06.280 --> 00:14:06.400 Okay. 00:14:06.840 --> 00:14:07.200 Interesting. 00:14:07.960 --> 00:14:08.260 Interesting. 00:14:08.440 --> 00:14:11.300 Well, then he cleared two and two and two. 00:14:11.840 --> 00:14:13.080 Or three and three, actually. 00:14:13.460 --> 00:14:14.220 Is it three and three? 00:14:14.860 --> 00:14:16.660 Is Tenth Planet right after War Machines? 00:14:17.400 --> 00:14:18.240 I don't think it is. 00:14:18.400 --> 00:14:21.180 There's something else, but I can't remember what. 00:14:22.300 --> 00:14:24.500 Hmm, it would be Ben and Polly. 00:14:26.259 --> 00:14:27.160 Hmm. Yeah. 00:14:27.400 --> 00:14:28.460 And I don't know. 00:14:28.960 --> 00:14:33.120 Anyway, so, you know, this this episode, 00:14:34.399 --> 00:14:37.420 basically the scientists eat the artists 00:14:38.640 --> 00:14:39.800 is what I'm getting out of it. 00:14:39.980 --> 00:14:43.460 That's kind of a slightly different variation on the Eloy and the Morlocks. 00:14:44.140 --> 00:14:45.380 Then we got more of the worlds. 00:14:46.060 --> 00:14:48.340 Now, that wasn't the parallel that I was saying. 00:14:48.400 --> 00:14:49.880 No, there's others. There's others. 00:14:50.000 --> 00:14:50.860 That was my first one. 00:14:50.860 --> 00:14:53.040 It's like their base, I think, I think. 00:14:53.120 --> 00:14:57.480 And then maybe that's my maybe that is my question is, 00:14:58.260 --> 00:15:02.480 let's say you've got a scientist and let's say he takes the life force 00:15:02.600 --> 00:15:06.060 from an artist, does he become more artistic? 00:15:06.720 --> 00:15:09.660 Is that is that what's going on here? 00:15:10.120 --> 00:15:15.140 Are we taking not just this keeps me young, this keeps me alive, 00:15:15.740 --> 00:15:20.840 but we're taking some thing and conveying it into their civilization 00:15:20.840 --> 00:15:24.500 they can do more, be better, be more rounded. 00:15:26.380 --> 00:15:28.660 Because I that's where all my questions are. 00:15:28.660 --> 00:15:32.000 It's like, how does this transference process is the damage permanent? 00:15:32.500 --> 00:15:35.400 Or are the savages all the way they are 00:15:35.800 --> 00:15:38.200 because they just keep getting milked too often? 00:15:38.780 --> 00:15:40.240 It's like they just never recover. 00:15:40.540 --> 00:15:45.620 If they were left alone in 10 years, would they be back to what they would have been? 00:15:46.200 --> 00:15:51.520 Or is this something that just permanently depletes them? 00:15:52.030 --> 00:15:54.960 I don't think it is something that permanently depletes them. I mean, 00:15:55.740 --> 00:15:56.840 like a blood transfusion. 00:15:58.300 --> 00:16:06.800 Probably, yeah. It probably depends on what you interpret it as being allegorical for. But 00:16:07.600 --> 00:16:16.180 the way that the observations that I was making, with the kind of exception of what we get at the 00:16:16.180 --> 00:16:19.240 they seem to be quite careful not to take too much. 00:16:19.620 --> 00:16:22.000 Like if you put them back, they will recover 00:16:22.040 --> 00:16:23.060 and you can do it again. 00:16:23.600 --> 00:16:26.960 In addition to which, the doctor's pills seem to promote 00:16:27.040 --> 00:16:30.360 some sort of recovery, which you would think 00:16:30.660 --> 00:16:35.320 they wouldn't do if it was some sort of finite life essence 00:16:35.420 --> 00:16:38.960 rather than, the concept that I have in mind here is energy. 00:16:38.980 --> 00:16:42.280 I think they talk about life force or something like that. 00:16:42.360 --> 00:16:47.420 But the idea that they can take away energy and deplete that, 00:16:48.340 --> 00:16:51.020 you'll be able to build up your energy again, 00:16:51.180 --> 00:16:53.480 just like your energy is wiped out 00:16:53.560 --> 00:16:55.240 when you have an illness 00:16:55.480 --> 00:16:59.820 and it takes you a while of rest to recover, 00:17:00.020 --> 00:17:01.080 but you will be fine. 00:17:01.420 --> 00:17:03.380 You will, depending on the illness, 00:17:03.480 --> 00:17:05.699 you will essentially be as good as you were before 00:17:06.160 --> 00:17:07.680 as long as you don't get ill again. 00:17:08.160 --> 00:17:12.959 And I think that seems to be the problem here. 00:17:13.439 --> 00:17:19.220 But we do see, and obviously we can make the argument that there's something to do with 00:17:19.380 --> 00:17:24.000 alien physiology, we do see that there's more than just energy transferred from the Doctor 00:17:24.220 --> 00:17:25.079 to Jano. 00:17:25.640 --> 00:17:26.100 We do. 00:17:26.339 --> 00:17:28.700 And you know, that bit at the end. 00:17:30.960 --> 00:17:41.060 of these kind of sci-fi concepts where you can do a sort of transfer from one to another, 00:17:41.780 --> 00:17:45.600 invariably they wind me up because they're so ill-defined. 00:17:46.850 --> 00:17:57.720 And they suggest some sort of very kind of unsophisticated conception of what identity 00:17:57.720 --> 00:18:06.980 means in the mind of the writer. So you have some sort of transfer operation like this. 00:18:08.240 --> 00:18:15.620 Along with life force, you end up discovering that all knowledge or capabilities or memories 00:18:16.080 --> 00:18:25.720 is transferred across, and in this case, conscience. And there's not been a careful enough consideration 00:18:25.720 --> 00:18:32.720 of what identity is or what it means to be the person that you are and what sort of combination 00:18:33.880 --> 00:18:41.040 of physical embodiment combined with your memories, your rational thought processes, 00:18:41.400 --> 00:18:47.140 the kind of chemical effects of one on the other that all of these kind of have interacting 00:18:47.140 --> 00:18:53.100 to make you the person that you are. So up to a point I was quite enjoying this. I actually 00:18:53.100 --> 00:18:58.960 thought that Frederick Jager doing Hartnell was quite a sort of fun idea because... 00:18:58.960 --> 00:19:01.940 I would truly love to see that actual performance. 00:19:02.900 --> 00:19:10.680 Well, exactly. If the concept is this is energy being transferred and what you're getting 00:19:10.800 --> 00:19:18.160 there is a load of Hartnell energy, I was willing to accept that quite readily on the 00:19:17.900 --> 00:19:23.080 basis of, well, that was quite entertaining and it fits with the idea. It was the notion 00:19:23.320 --> 00:19:28.760 that not, well, not only the notion that some part of the doctor's conscience comes across 00:19:29.560 --> 00:19:34.900 separately and individually, but that it's so obvious that that's what's going to happen, 00:19:35.180 --> 00:19:42.600 that the doctor is totally counting on it. He's 100% certain that this is what's transpired. 00:19:42.660 --> 00:19:44.460 Well, he's smarter than they are. 00:19:45.080 --> 00:19:50.420 So I think, but at some point shortly after the transfer, 00:19:50.460 --> 00:19:51.540 in a couple of instances, 00:19:51.800 --> 00:19:54.620 Jano does not even know he is Jano. 00:19:55.360 --> 00:19:58.600 He clearly thinks he is the doctor. 00:19:59.220 --> 00:20:01.200 Just by the way, when people are talking to him, 00:20:01.220 --> 00:20:05.200 I'm like, he responds to them as if they're nuts. 00:20:05.800 --> 00:20:07.660 You know, like they don't realize who he is. 00:20:08.180 --> 00:20:13.300 And so I thought, frankly, I thought by the end of this, 00:20:13.300 --> 00:20:15.440 we were gonna have to have that re-transferred 00:20:15.640 --> 00:20:16.400 back to the doctor. 00:20:16.930 --> 00:20:18.260 Well, we've certainly seen that before. 00:20:18.980 --> 00:20:21.160 But is Jano gonna be like this forever? 00:20:21.800 --> 00:20:22.660 -Yeah. -Yeah. 00:20:23.340 --> 00:20:26.540 I mean, I didn't get the sense of that. 00:20:26.620 --> 00:20:30.620 I got more of the sense of the kind of energy 00:20:30.740 --> 00:20:34.300 that Jano had received was not usual, 00:20:34.600 --> 00:20:39.680 and that it affected his personality and his behavior 00:20:39.930 --> 00:20:45.120 in ways that were kind of at a level 00:20:45.240 --> 00:20:47.620 where he wasn't even immediately aware of them. 00:20:47.720 --> 00:20:50.860 He had to sort of stop and think to realize 00:20:51.620 --> 00:20:53.400 that what he was doing was atypical 00:20:53.680 --> 00:20:57.160 because it's almost that instinctive kind of energy 00:20:57.280 --> 00:20:59.400 in the way that you speak and interact 00:20:59.840 --> 00:21:01.060 and behave with other people. 00:21:01.760 --> 00:21:04.580 So it didn't seem to me that he thought he was the doctor 00:21:04.580 --> 00:21:11.660 thought he wasn't Jano, but more that it hadn't occurred to him in the instant that the way 00:21:11.660 --> 00:21:17.340 he was behaving was not Jano-like, that he had to stop and reflect because it wasn't 00:21:17.540 --> 00:21:22.760 happening on a conscious cognitive level, it was happening on a kind of instinctive 00:21:23.580 --> 00:21:24.840 gut reaction level. 00:21:26.400 --> 00:21:31.420 There's something about, there's something about the way he interacts with Edel in a 00:21:31.600 --> 00:21:39.280 couple of instances where I distinctly got the impression that it was the doctor. 00:21:39.790 --> 00:21:45.760 It was not Jano instinctively reacting to the way, for example, the way he would refer 00:21:45.920 --> 00:21:51.700 to, I think there's a point where Edel says, the strangers, like he doesn't know who the 00:21:51.760 --> 00:21:52.860 strangers are. 00:21:52.940 --> 00:22:01.480 If it were Jano, it's that confusion that makes me think that the doctor is there. 00:22:01.720 --> 00:22:06.820 But again, it's not really very well defined. 00:22:07.820 --> 00:22:10.760 And is Jano permanently affected? 00:22:11.370 --> 00:22:15.100 Will he always be a little bit of the first doctor till the day he dies? 00:22:16.360 --> 00:22:16.880 Or... 00:22:16.880 --> 00:22:17.320 I don't know. 00:22:17.960 --> 00:22:24.540 that there was some kind of reciprocity in it in the sense that if the savages can recover, 00:22:24.700 --> 00:22:31.440 then the elders will lose some of it over time and need to replenish it, which is, 00:22:32.560 --> 00:22:37.640 it's kind of reflected in the fact that you assume they have more than one in transference each. 00:22:38.280 --> 00:22:43.380 Yeah, they said that, they said as much. They said they picked the time and who needs it the most, 00:22:43.400 --> 00:22:48.560 And so I assume that there's some sort of medical condition that they can identify in somebody or 00:22:48.740 --> 00:22:54.240 or some need that they identify and go, OK, well, that's the most deserving person to get this today. 00:22:54.900 --> 00:23:02.680 But yeah, so there must be some depletion of it. But that's the energy. But will he lose his 00:23:03.060 --> 00:23:08.940 conscience for right and wrong as he goes along? Because there's one other thing about this. 00:23:10.280 --> 00:23:18.720 The situation is that the elders just don't get it. 00:23:19.400 --> 00:23:24.900 They, they are not, they are not people doing bad things to their 00:23:25.240 --> 00:23:28.000 benefit and knowing that they're bad. 00:23:28.520 --> 00:23:35.780 They appear to be fully unaware of the fact that what they're doing is bad. 00:23:36.400 --> 00:23:38.860 Until the doctor opens Jane O's eyes. 00:23:39.320 --> 00:23:42.180 It's, I mean, there's lots of parallels in history. 00:23:43.480 --> 00:23:46.840 People doing bad things because they think, well, they think the 00:23:47.120 --> 00:23:51.380 savages are a lesser people, uh, or, or not even people. 00:23:52.040 --> 00:23:53.000 It's an interesting idea. 00:23:53.000 --> 00:23:57.040 I think this could be probably could have used a, maybe another pass on the 00:23:57.180 --> 00:23:58.820 script, but it was, it was not bad. 00:23:59.420 --> 00:24:00.380 It was, it was not bad. 00:24:01.539 --> 00:24:06.679 I mean, I think, I think part of how this works is connected with what you think is 00:24:07.100 --> 00:24:18.720 going on in terms of the exploitation here. I thought that it was a kind of a satirization 00:24:18.900 --> 00:24:31.140 or an allegory for how capital exploits the labor class, that the energy being taken is like 00:24:31.580 --> 00:24:42.960 the workers who build things in society not actually having the time or the wealth and 00:24:43.100 --> 00:24:51.060 resources to be able to enjoy the fruits of it, while the privileged class is swanning around 00:24:51.520 --> 00:24:59.060 in these magnificent environments that have been built on the backs of it. And I felt that that 00:24:58.940 --> 00:25:06.160 kind of connected with the conclusion which I thought was probably inspired by the Luddites, 00:25:06.620 --> 00:25:13.460 so destruction of the machinery. But the other possibility was that it was 00:25:14.800 --> 00:25:21.860 supposed to be some sort of racial allegory. And I did discover that the original title of the 00:25:22.580 --> 00:25:28.920 serial during the scripting stage was The White Savages, which suggests that actually it was 00:25:28.920 --> 00:25:30.300 Or possibly both. 00:25:30.919 --> 00:25:41.980 Yeah, well, that presents all sorts of implications, doesn't it? 00:25:43.660 --> 00:25:45.340 That's an unusual kind of savage. 00:25:45.980 --> 00:25:47.040 Normally they're not white. 00:25:47.740 --> 00:25:49.960 Oh god, that's just terrible. 00:25:51.180 --> 00:25:53.240 Well, okay, so I'm going to come back to this, though. 00:25:53.920 --> 00:25:58.720 the Eloy and the Morlocks, if it is capital and workers, 00:25:58.860 --> 00:26:00.260 then that is the same parallel, 00:26:00.520 --> 00:26:02.440 except it's flipped on the end, right? 00:26:02.540 --> 00:26:04.860 In HG Wells, it was the laborers 00:26:04.900 --> 00:26:08.120 who ended up eating the rich, which, you know, 00:26:08.300 --> 00:26:10.600 I don't know why he's portraying that as a bad future, 00:26:11.200 --> 00:26:15.260 but, you know, that's kind of how it, 00:26:15.840 --> 00:26:17.760 or at least that's how I always took that to be. 00:26:17.830 --> 00:26:19.200 I mean, they were the idle rich 00:26:19.300 --> 00:26:21.820 and the laborers were working underground 00:26:21.820 --> 00:26:25.620 and toiling away and became monsters and cannibals. 00:26:25.700 --> 00:26:27.340 And so it is kind of, 00:26:28.460 --> 00:26:31.200 but I also got definitely got the impression that, 00:26:31.480 --> 00:26:32.720 for example, the artwork, 00:26:33.060 --> 00:26:35.640 our people used to be artists 00:26:35.840 --> 00:26:37.240 and we used to do stuff like this. 00:26:37.580 --> 00:26:40.080 I definitely got the impression that this was a society 00:26:40.240 --> 00:26:42.260 where the scientists came up with the idea 00:26:42.860 --> 00:26:45.160 and then who did they pick on? 00:26:46.460 --> 00:26:48.480 You know, we don't need the artists. 00:26:49.210 --> 00:26:51.340 Maybe it was the laborers, maybe it was both. 00:26:51.720 --> 00:26:52.740 Maybe it was supposed to be on. 00:26:53.240 --> 00:26:56.880 But if it's transferring in, then you'd take the artist 00:26:57.100 --> 00:26:58.200 because if you had an engineer 00:26:58.320 --> 00:26:59.880 who had all that life force from artists, 00:26:59.940 --> 00:27:01.440 you would make some beautiful cities 00:27:01.580 --> 00:27:04.840 and you'd be Johnny Ive. 00:27:06.860 --> 00:27:09.300 And it's just kind of, yeah, 00:27:09.380 --> 00:27:11.260 it's just all sorts of things that this could have, 00:27:11.600 --> 00:27:14.960 this could have broken down along on its line. 00:27:15.040 --> 00:27:17.200 But yeah, I definitely see the parallel to the, 00:27:17.800 --> 00:27:20.920 I think they may even go so far as to say 00:27:20.920 --> 00:27:28.600 They don't use capital, but they definitely absolutely say, you know, there is those that 00:27:28.860 --> 00:27:33.320 need and those that take from those that don't or something of that nature. 00:27:34.040 --> 00:27:35.680 Yeah, it was it was definitely there. 00:27:35.880 --> 00:27:36.720 It was definitely there. 00:27:37.200 --> 00:27:38.160 Let me ask this question. 00:27:39.140 --> 00:27:44.820 Given that very soon now Hartnell will leave and we all know what a great story of the 00:27:44.820 --> 00:27:45.660 10th planet was. 00:27:46.120 --> 00:27:48.220 That was a fantastic departure for the doctor. 00:27:48.320 --> 00:27:51.540 He just didn't do much in two episodes and then fell over. 00:27:52.220 --> 00:27:54.100 Great exit for Hartnell. 00:27:55.400 --> 00:28:00.600 Dodo quite literally disappeared in the middle of a story with a note. 00:28:01.500 --> 00:28:04.160 She went up to her aunts and we never see her again. 00:28:04.800 --> 00:28:07.540 Which I think may be the worst exit ever. 00:28:08.320 --> 00:28:09.840 Was this a good exit for Steven? 00:28:10.520 --> 00:28:11.300 Yeah, I thought so. 00:28:12.020 --> 00:28:13.860 See that's that might take on it too. 00:28:13.920 --> 00:28:16.760 It's like this is one of the better companion departures. 00:28:17.520 --> 00:28:22.800 It sort of makes sense in context of the story. 00:28:23.440 --> 00:28:25.820 It's not like, "Oh, Leela fell in love." 00:28:25.920 --> 00:28:26.960 It does. 00:28:27.060 --> 00:28:31.360 I mean, there's a similarity to, I think, maybe the way Nyssa departs. 00:28:31.500 --> 00:28:36.220 It's the finding you don't end up where you started. 00:28:36.440 --> 00:28:41.940 You're not going back home, which is quite an interesting kind of a different take in 00:28:41.960 --> 00:28:46.300 its own right, particularly when you try not to mess up the web of time. 00:28:46.440 --> 00:28:55.580 But still, you find some sort of calling, and that essentially is what Stephen has done 00:28:55.680 --> 00:28:55.820 here. 00:28:55.960 --> 00:28:58.640 The people on the planet need him. 00:28:58.740 --> 00:29:05.960 He recognizes that he has an ability to help them, and that this is an opportunity that 00:29:06.600 --> 00:29:10.040 he will feel like he's missing something if he gives it up. 00:29:10.680 --> 00:29:14.480 Because the problem is always, you leave the Doctor, you leave traveling through time and 00:29:14.480 --> 00:29:14.600 space. 00:29:15.560 --> 00:29:16.980 you're missing something when you give it up. 00:29:17.580 --> 00:29:19.540 So you need to have something to sort of balance that. 00:29:20.180 --> 00:29:20.280 Yeah. 00:29:20.560 --> 00:29:26.900 And I think he, well, he earned the trust of the savages throughout the course of the 00:29:27.400 --> 00:29:27.760 episode. 00:29:28.320 --> 00:29:34.680 I don't know that he earned the trust of the elders, but Jano has the Doctor's trust in 00:29:34.780 --> 00:29:36.720 him kind of thing. 00:29:37.000 --> 00:29:40.100 So I mean, I don't know how the rest of the elders felt. 00:29:40.200 --> 00:29:44.160 They all seemed to be pretty happily going off to the conference room there at the end 00:29:44.160 --> 00:29:49.040 to, to proclaim him the new leader or whatever, but yeah, I, when I came out 00:29:49.040 --> 00:29:54.560 of this story, I did kind of think, yeah, that was, that was pretty good. 00:29:55.100 --> 00:29:56.140 That was pretty good. 00:29:56.180 --> 00:30:01.200 I mean, Ian and Barbara, when they left, they had never been able to get back to 00:30:01.380 --> 00:30:05.280 home, not once ever, and there was their chance. 00:30:06.160 --> 00:30:07.040 So yeah. 00:30:07.050 --> 00:30:07.380 All right. 00:30:07.980 --> 00:30:09.300 I'll I'll take it. 00:30:09.920 --> 00:30:12.400 Um, Susan, of course, didn't get a choice. 00:30:12.900 --> 00:30:19.020 Vicky, I can't figure out why did Vicky leave? I know where she left, but why did she leave? 00:30:19.080 --> 00:30:23.920 Do we know? Did she just fall in love? Which is her, I can't even remember her 00:30:24.000 --> 00:30:28.120 departure story, so it's obviously not. It's one that doesn't exist. It's, she got 00:30:28.180 --> 00:30:31.820 left behind in the Myth Makers maybe? Is that the Myth Makers? 00:30:32.100 --> 00:30:37.480 Okay, no, I haven't seen the Myth Makers. Yeah. I think she's Cassandra, isn't she? 00:30:37.700 --> 00:30:46.740 of myth. Maybe that's the grump. Anyway, yeah, so Divan and Dodo are the next to go. It's probably 00:30:47.060 --> 00:30:51.500 one of the better, probably one of the better ones. I will say though that he did take a 00:30:52.360 --> 00:30:59.500 frustratingly long time to fight back when they were being pursued by eyesore or exors in the 00:30:59.780 --> 00:31:06.260 caves. It's like, jump him. It's like, we already know that the guards don't expect anybody to fight 00:31:06.260 --> 00:31:12.020 back, jump him, take his gun. Then they're just not expecting it. And I think they were 00:31:12.060 --> 00:31:18.980 just dragging the time out. But that was that was my critique of Stephen. 00:31:20.520 --> 00:31:26.820 The characters of Avon and Flower, that was weird. Brought him in a little bit at the beginning. 00:31:27.720 --> 00:31:31.660 Never see him again. Yeah. I feel like they should have been there at the end. 00:31:32.100 --> 00:31:37.500 you know, new generation of people. Yeah. Okay. Do you have anything specific about the, 00:31:37.780 --> 00:31:43.960 the else about the story that before we talk about the recreation and, and one other thing? 00:31:44.680 --> 00:31:47.660 Yeah. It was one of the interesting things about the story is this, 00:31:48.380 --> 00:31:54.600 that within this kind of far future setting, the elders recognize the doctor, like they know, 00:31:54.750 --> 00:32:00.620 Oh, and is he is and his path. Yeah. He's, he's kind of famous. So I'm wondering whether that 00:32:00.580 --> 00:32:07.520 kind of fame, is that like the Matt Smith fame thing where he had to wipe himself out from all 00:32:07.600 --> 00:32:12.740 the historical records across space and time because he'd become so well known that it was 00:32:12.760 --> 00:32:21.080 a problem? Or is it like the one doctor where the doctor goes so far into the future that 00:32:21.720 --> 00:32:26.120 people have heard of him there, as he calls it, the vulgar end of time? 00:32:26.120 --> 00:32:30.060 That's a good question. I mean, obviously, they've got some sort of technology that's 00:32:30.060 --> 00:32:33.640 been tracking him, so they are very advanced. 00:32:34.080 --> 00:32:40.720 They're advanced. They presumably don't have time technology themselves, do they? But they 00:32:40.740 --> 00:32:47.520 recognize that it exists because they have this admiration for time-space exploration 00:32:48.440 --> 00:32:55.420 And they see the Doctor as being a kind of singular standout with respect to. 00:32:56.140 --> 00:33:05.140 So another question I had in relation to that was when we get the existence of the Time 00:33:05.380 --> 00:33:10.200 Lords introduced, which I guess we probably already have, haven't we? 00:33:10.340 --> 00:33:11.580 Because it's the Meddling Monk. 00:33:13.020 --> 00:33:16.760 How does that fit with there being others like him? 00:33:17.080 --> 00:33:26.640 Well, okay, so a couple things. I mean, for starters, I think there was a sort of unwritten 00:33:27.460 --> 00:33:32.880 rule for a long time that the Time Lords were kind of the only people who had time travel. 00:33:33.780 --> 00:33:39.860 How that works over the life of the universe is another story, but it is a very rare thing. 00:33:40.380 --> 00:33:45.120 And the Time Lords don't use it. And even if they did use it, they go somewhere and 00:33:45.120 --> 00:33:51.340 and then they come back. They're not tracking a path through the universe like the Doctor 00:33:51.400 --> 00:33:57.300 is. And we don't know, maybe they were tracking the Meddling Monk as well, but they knew somehow 00:33:57.560 --> 00:33:59.860 that the Meddling Monk was never going to show up on their planet. 00:34:00.440 --> 00:34:06.260 I have to say that this was my headcanon, was that the Time Lords don't interfere, so 00:34:06.740 --> 00:34:12.240 they wouldn't have shown up on the Elder's radar for that reason. And the Meddling Monk 00:34:12.240 --> 00:34:17.220 possibly just trying to keep a low profile so that he doesn't get his collar felt by 00:34:17.960 --> 00:34:24.340 the Celestial Intervention Agency. That was my rationale. But obviously they weren't thinking 00:34:24.480 --> 00:34:29.620 about it. Yeah, it's a pretty bold prediction that said we've been expecting you. We've been 00:34:29.860 --> 00:34:33.399 following you through space and time and we've been expecting you. It's like, it's a big space 00:34:33.460 --> 00:34:38.000 and time. If you're assuming that he's going to randomly end up on your planet someday, 00:34:38.639 --> 00:34:44.960 Maybe they know where the TARDIS is going more than the Doctor does. It is a little bit weird. 00:34:46.120 --> 00:34:54.179 Days before canon had been set down and it was a wild west of ideas for the show. I don't know. 00:34:55.360 --> 00:35:01.900 People are kind of, I mean we killed off the Time Lords, when I say we I mean RTD and the other guy, 00:35:02.400 --> 00:35:09.880 Chibnall and because time Lords we know too much the thing or they tried the whole cart 00:35:09.900 --> 00:35:14.260 mall there's not enough mystery in the doctor and I'm not gonna I'm not gonna 00:35:14.560 --> 00:35:17.900 argue well I'm certainly not gonna argue that their attempts to make the doctor 00:35:18.020 --> 00:35:22.520 more mysterious were were well-founded but I'll make the argument that maybe 00:35:22.720 --> 00:35:28.039 there is something to the argument that says it's a little too well-defined he's 00:35:28.040 --> 00:35:33.260 a little too well defined. But at the same time, when he isn't well defined, you get 00:35:33.740 --> 00:35:39.240 all this conflicting stuff when there is no plan behind it. 00:35:39.240 --> 00:35:46.900 Matthew: Yeah, it wouldn't conflict if we didn't have the Time Lords being such a prominent 00:35:47.600 --> 00:35:50.100 feature of the series later on. 00:35:50.320 --> 00:35:57.100 But it really when it conflicts is in the future when they define the time Lords. So yeah. Yeah, exactly the way I mean 00:35:57.120 --> 00:35:58.220 it's part of the 00:35:58.880 --> 00:36:02.660 part of the point my point simply being is that 00:36:03.260 --> 00:36:07.040 the more the more you you have to have some of this codified or 00:36:07.980 --> 00:36:12.660 You will just keep ping-ponging back and forth between different ideas and eventually they settle on the time Lords 00:36:12.840 --> 00:36:17.280 But anything else just one last thing that I noted that's not connected with 00:36:17.800 --> 00:36:25.160 The animation was the doctor's reacting vibrator. Yes. What about his reacting vibrator? 00:36:25.980 --> 00:36:26.940 Nothing, nothing 00:36:30.000 --> 00:36:35.000 Perfectly innocent name for it to have perfectly innocent name for him to have it. Yes. I see 00:36:36.940 --> 00:36:41.380 I'm glad I hope that's what I I'm sure that's what the prop looked like. Um, I 00:36:43.180 --> 00:36:44.780 I certainly hope that's what the problem is. 00:36:44.780 --> 00:36:47.160 Better than looking like a Sonic, just call it Sonic screwdriver. 00:36:47.480 --> 00:36:47.880 Screwdriver. 00:36:48.000 --> 00:36:48.200 Yes. 00:36:48.960 --> 00:36:49.200 Yeah. 00:36:49.940 --> 00:36:55.960 Um, one thing I want to say that's sort of, sort of not exactly about the animation, 00:36:56.540 --> 00:36:58.500 but it could easily segue into it. 00:36:58.830 --> 00:37:03.660 So we've got a relatively new producer here, as we've mentioned, and I haven't 00:37:03.750 --> 00:37:09.620 had the chance to watch the bonus materials on the disc, but however, I have. 00:37:10.160 --> 00:37:13.720 for a variety of reasons, watched bits of them. 00:37:14.320 --> 00:37:18.300 And one of the things that was mentioned 00:37:18.560 --> 00:37:20.560 in the, I think, the making of, 00:37:21.180 --> 00:37:26.520 is that this is the first episode of "Doctor Who" 00:37:26.940 --> 00:37:30.220 to make major use of location footage. 00:37:31.180 --> 00:37:33.460 This is one of the things that the producer, 00:37:33.960 --> 00:37:36.920 this producer brought in to the show. 00:37:36.940 --> 00:37:40.000 They'd had stuff like the French Revolution, 00:37:40.320 --> 00:37:44.560 where they had a double walk across some fields and one up. 00:37:44.660 --> 00:37:49.880 But this is a big use of them out in a quarry. 00:37:50.620 --> 00:37:53.440 So this is a milestone in Doctor This. 00:37:53.540 --> 00:37:55.520 Maybe that's the first quarry they ever visited. 00:37:56.240 --> 00:37:57.540 And we don't have it. 00:37:57.800 --> 00:37:58.080 - It is. 00:37:58.660 --> 00:38:01.760 - We don't have it to watch and enjoy. 00:38:02.420 --> 00:38:05.940 Because all of the pictures I see of it from the stills, 00:38:05.940 --> 00:38:09.780 which I've subsequently seen, looks so much better 00:38:09.960 --> 00:38:13.340 than the animated backgrounds that we got. 00:38:15.880 --> 00:38:18.500 Moving into, I'm gonna criticize one thing 00:38:18.500 --> 00:38:20.780 about the animation is like, I think they blew it 00:38:21.330 --> 00:38:25.660 on the scene and the sets or the planetary sets. 00:38:26.359 --> 00:38:29.400 Because yeah, I know there was lots more trees 00:38:29.630 --> 00:38:31.940 and there were bushes and it actually looked 00:38:31.940 --> 00:38:38.300 like people could live out there in the wilderness and people could hide a little bit better. 00:38:39.880 --> 00:38:44.500 And I know that's harder to animate, but they could have at least put some green bushes 00:38:44.600 --> 00:38:50.020 in the background or something, anything, but it's just a desolate rock garden. 00:38:51.020 --> 00:38:54.920 And if it's behind them, why wouldn't they do that? 00:38:54.920 --> 00:38:58.560 Do they just not have any green in their palette? 00:38:58.800 --> 00:39:01.180 We're out of green bits for the animation or something. 00:39:01.500 --> 00:39:03.680 Why would you want an alien planet to be green? 00:39:05.179 --> 00:39:06.680 Well, because it was. 00:39:08.299 --> 00:39:09.540 Because it was. 00:39:10.140 --> 00:39:10.900 But that's clearly-- 00:39:10.900 --> 00:39:11.220 I don't know. 00:39:11.300 --> 00:39:13.680 That's one of the things where I don't think the animation has 00:39:13.860 --> 00:39:14.700 to do that. 00:39:16.119 --> 00:39:16.480 So-- 00:39:16.480 --> 00:39:17.700 I don't think it has to do it. 00:39:17.820 --> 00:39:19.660 I just don't think it works as effectively, 00:39:20.000 --> 00:39:21.700 because it just doesn't-- 00:39:21.800 --> 00:39:24.360 this just doesn't feel like-- 00:39:24.360 --> 00:39:26.120 well, first off, there's a few places in it 00:39:26.160 --> 00:39:29.860 where you can't reconcile with what they're talking about, 00:39:29.900 --> 00:39:32.040 with what's on the screen. 00:39:32.740 --> 00:39:36.880 I think the bit where she's complaining about, where they're trying to get Nannina across 00:39:36.980 --> 00:39:37.520 the ravine. 00:39:37.780 --> 00:39:39.200 It's like, "What ravine?" 00:39:39.200 --> 00:39:41.920 And there is no ravine. 00:39:42.720 --> 00:39:42.860 And... 00:39:42.860 --> 00:39:44.720 Well, that I grant you is more of a problem. 00:39:44.840 --> 00:39:50.860 But I don't necessarily think that you have to make the backgrounds look like a quarry 00:39:50.940 --> 00:39:57.280 because this episode stands out for being the first serial where you actually see a 00:39:57.280 --> 00:39:57.520 quarry. 00:39:58.140 --> 00:40:04.380 at the time that would have been quite an exciting thing because you know you're looking at 00:40:05.100 --> 00:40:11.620 location footage and how much more realistic that looks. Looking back at it now after seeing 00:40:12.460 --> 00:40:18.280 however many Doctor Who serials filmed in quarries you would get less excited about that but you might 00:40:18.880 --> 00:40:23.340 feel like it was of value because you're looking at the original footage. Given that that's gone 00:40:23.900 --> 00:40:26.020 I don't see the need to recreate it. 00:40:26.620 --> 00:40:30.800 I'm not saying they needed to recreate it because it was the first time they were in 00:40:30.800 --> 00:40:31.300 a quarry. 00:40:31.780 --> 00:40:39.240 And again, a lot of the pictures I've seen do not look anything like any other quarry 00:40:39.340 --> 00:40:40.060 we've ever seen. 00:40:40.660 --> 00:40:45.540 There are people walking down paths that have bushes and stuff on either side of them. 00:40:46.000 --> 00:40:50.040 There are people which typically quarries don't have much vegetation left. 00:40:50.680 --> 00:41:00.220 So they actually look like they're outdoors and I think with one picture I've seen accepted 00:41:00.920 --> 00:41:01.940 that it would look better. 00:41:03.360 --> 00:41:09.180 We have seen a very much, every time we get to an animated planet, they are pretty much 00:41:09.240 --> 00:41:10.360 what we're looking at here. 00:41:10.800 --> 00:41:14.660 Macra Terra, I seem to recall the planet looked like that. 00:41:15.640 --> 00:41:22.360 for any of those. They've just they've gone with a sort of generic Star Trek rocky background 00:41:24.200 --> 00:41:29.580 and they don't have to do that. I get why they don't want to have people walking in and amongst 00:41:29.780 --> 00:41:36.220 the bushes, but why is it just such a dull, disinteresting, boring background? That's my 00:41:36.440 --> 00:41:41.660 complaint. It's boring. It's not visually interesting at all. And I think that's not 00:41:41.560 --> 00:41:45.640 That is a reasonable complaint, but it's exacerbated by the fact that they show so 00:41:45.880 --> 00:41:47.120 much of it, which is a choice. 00:41:47.500 --> 00:41:54.480 And it is, I think, informed by the fact that animation can create a much bigger 00:41:54.720 --> 00:42:00.700 vista, you'd have had close shots in the quarry because you'd have wanted to make 00:42:00.840 --> 00:42:02.840 sure that the background was just quarry. 00:42:03.380 --> 00:42:07.620 And with this, you can be as wide as you like. 00:42:08.160 --> 00:42:12.840 But what that does is emphasize how dull and featureless the background actually is. 00:42:13.520 --> 00:42:15.200 And there is the scene I did want to mention. 00:42:15.260 --> 00:42:20.480 I've seen a picture of it and I sure, unless it's staged for a photo op, there 00:42:20.580 --> 00:42:26.360 is the scene where the doctor is wandering and he hears the savages hiding out of 00:42:26.580 --> 00:42:30.340 sight and he's like, Oh, come on out, come on out. 00:42:31.040 --> 00:42:36.660 And then Edel and I think X, X, or, uh, show up as, Oh, I've been waiting for it. 00:42:36.660 --> 00:42:38.840 He's like, and he has to turn around and look, 00:42:39.520 --> 00:42:42.080 not where he was expecting them to be. 00:42:42.700 --> 00:42:44.240 But from the stills I've seen, 00:42:45.060 --> 00:42:49.040 there are about four feet behind him, 00:42:49.800 --> 00:42:52.800 hiding in a tree like a two year old 00:42:52.940 --> 00:42:54.600 hides under a coffee table. 00:42:55.260 --> 00:42:59.820 It's so bad that I'm hoping it's a publicity still 00:43:00.200 --> 00:43:02.160 and not an actual scene from the thing. 00:43:02.760 --> 00:43:05.780 But, you know, it feels like that's the scene 00:43:05.780 --> 00:43:08.880 where they're hiding in the bushes and the doctor's trying to coax them out. 00:43:09.660 --> 00:43:14.900 And it, that probably didn't come off very well on the show. 00:43:15.520 --> 00:43:17.240 I have to say from watching. 00:43:18.320 --> 00:43:23.000 So I did watch the recon for some of it to get a sense of what 00:43:23.040 --> 00:43:24.100 the original would look like. 00:43:24.200 --> 00:43:27.460 Although it's very difficult because the stills don't give 00:43:27.560 --> 00:43:29.040 you a kind of real sense of it. 00:43:29.520 --> 00:43:33.840 Certainly the location footage didn't stand out for me. 00:43:33.940 --> 00:43:37.620 Obviously it's interesting that it was the kind of first example of it, but in 00:43:37.780 --> 00:43:43.460 almost every respect, I didn't think that the sets that they used for the original 00:43:43.580 --> 00:43:49.620 serial were much of a loss and that a lot of the animated sets, particularly in the 00:43:49.680 --> 00:43:52.020 Elder City, looked a lot better. 00:43:52.480 --> 00:43:56.060 And you know, also the kind of standard TV studio caves. 00:43:56.860 --> 00:44:03.400 So yeah, it's not the best animation and the backgrounds are not the best. 00:44:04.120 --> 00:44:07.940 backgrounds. I mean, it's not the best Doctor Who animation by any stretch, but 00:44:08.340 --> 00:44:09.780 I had the same time. 00:44:10.540 --> 00:44:16.320 It wasn't, it wasn't, uh, looking to me like it was particularly outstanding. 00:44:17.300 --> 00:44:21.400 It, the, the, the, the location footage was particularly outstanding in any 00:44:21.600 --> 00:44:25.320 respect, other than being the kind of first real extensive example of it. 00:44:25.980 --> 00:44:30.120 With regards to the animation, I thought there was something very 00:44:30.360 --> 00:44:33.180 interesting about this animation and I didn't notice it. 00:44:34.440 --> 00:44:38.120 until they had Nanina on the table. 00:44:38.760 --> 00:44:42.260 And, you know, they've got her lying down on the, 00:44:42.860 --> 00:44:43.980 you know, they're about to gas her. 00:44:44.620 --> 00:44:45.360 Her hair moves. 00:44:46.620 --> 00:44:49.360 And after I noticed that, 00:44:49.800 --> 00:44:51.160 and I made a note of it in my notes, 00:44:51.220 --> 00:44:53.680 it's like, "Interesting, they made her hair move." 00:44:53.980 --> 00:44:55.400 Then I started looking at it, 00:44:56.100 --> 00:45:00.480 and I'm not sure this isn't one of the best bits 00:45:00.480 --> 00:45:02.800 of animation we've had, 00:45:03.200 --> 00:45:07.020 Because the characters are actually doing things. 00:45:07.680 --> 00:45:09.900 They're twiddling their thumbs. 00:45:10.720 --> 00:45:15.080 They're doing a little bit more expressive hand gestures. 00:45:15.840 --> 00:45:18.780 They turn and look at things. 00:45:19.000 --> 00:45:21.500 They even, at one point, turn their back to the camera. 00:45:22.120 --> 00:45:28.520 It's not like 1930s Disney hand animation, 00:45:29.340 --> 00:45:32.680 but compared to a lot of the ones we've seen, 00:45:32.740 --> 00:45:36.680 which, you know, pin the tail on the donkey arms and stuff. 00:45:37.160 --> 00:45:40.960 Actually, they're moving quite a lot more than usual. 00:45:41.820 --> 00:45:46.440 Even when you see, uh, Jano, right? 00:45:47.020 --> 00:45:50.780 Collars, thumbs to his lapels that he's not wearing. 00:45:50.790 --> 00:45:54.600 I mean, they are, they're doing, they're doing the motions. 00:45:55.359 --> 00:45:57.500 And, uh, I don't know, maybe they, 00:45:58.200 --> 00:45:59.920 maybe they spent all their money on motion 00:45:59.740 --> 00:46:07.600 motion and left it off in designing trees in the background. I don't know. But I like 00:46:07.680 --> 00:46:13.020 it so much better than Celestial Toymaker. It's not even funny. But I'm willing to give 00:46:13.080 --> 00:46:18.680 Celestial Toymaker a pass. But yeah, I mean, I, I, I'm not going to say it's one of the, 00:46:19.260 --> 00:46:24.860 I'm not going to say it's the best animation. It's not the best drawings. Yeah. I mean, 00:46:25.220 --> 00:46:29.240 I think even other animations from this team have impressed me more. 00:46:29.670 --> 00:46:35.360 I think those aspects that you're talking about are justified praise. 00:46:36.020 --> 00:46:40.180 And I think that probably reflects the fact that this is quite a sort of a 00:46:40.360 --> 00:46:44.280 mature, um, a mature process for animating, right? 00:46:44.280 --> 00:46:49.560 I mean, this is not like, I mean, they've done Galaxy 4, haven't they? 00:46:49.680 --> 00:46:53.060 But most of the, most of the stories that they've done had been second 00:46:53.060 --> 00:46:59.480 Doctor stories with obviously Troughton and other companions, so it's not like 00:46:59.600 --> 00:47:03.560 they're reusing the same drawings, but they're certainly reusing the same 00:47:03.840 --> 00:47:09.660 techniques and experiences in a way that, because these days and actually for 00:47:09.780 --> 00:47:15.560 quite some time now, half the anime, so every other animation, is produced and 00:47:15.580 --> 00:47:21.840 directed by Anne-Marie Walsh. I don't know what the name of the outfit is, but 00:47:21.620 --> 00:47:28.740 But it's a similar group of personnel for each animation that they make. 00:47:29.320 --> 00:47:38.280 Whereas every other one is produced by Big Finish plus some other animation house in 00:47:39.080 --> 00:47:39.760 Asia or somewhere. 00:47:40.540 --> 00:47:44.700 And they seem to try a different technique for each new story that they do. 00:47:45.400 --> 00:47:48.580 And some of them I think are quite successful. 00:47:48.980 --> 00:47:52.400 I mean, we can argue until the cows come home over the web of fear. 00:47:53.080 --> 00:48:00.400 But the, the, the problem inevitably is that as well as kind of hitting on some 00:48:02.060 --> 00:48:07.500 really useful and maybe newer and more interesting animation techniques, they're 00:48:07.550 --> 00:48:11.740 also making a bit of a dog's breakfast of it when they're trying to do something 00:48:12.060 --> 00:48:16.020 that they, you know, that is perhaps too experimental or they don't necessarily 00:48:16.020 --> 00:48:19.300 have the experience doing or isn't well suited to doing one of these, but they 00:48:19.440 --> 00:48:24.880 don't realize it other than by trying it out and you know they don't have the 00:48:24.940 --> 00:48:29.740 budget to start again so that's what gets released on DVD. So this this to me 00:48:29.880 --> 00:48:38.420 feels like the safe option even if I would say that releases like the Macra 00:48:38.540 --> 00:48:43.700 Terra or Enemy of the Daleks just looked better to my eye than this one. 00:48:43.860 --> 00:48:52.220 Oh, I definitely think that the artwork on this is not fantastic. 00:48:54.900 --> 00:48:55.340 It's alright. 00:48:57.220 --> 00:49:04.640 And like I said, the artwork was okay, but I just felt like they were moving it better, 00:49:04.780 --> 00:49:08.080 which is just another component of the total animation. 00:49:08.780 --> 00:49:13.120 So not crazy about the backgrounds, thought the artwork was eh, all right. 00:49:14.500 --> 00:49:20.060 And but I thought they were, they were upping their game on movement for this style of animation, 00:49:20.780 --> 00:49:20.980 right? 00:49:21.140 --> 00:49:25.280 They haven't, they haven't gone to the rotoscope or if they did, they've learned how to do 00:49:25.380 --> 00:49:25.440 it. 00:49:25.620 --> 00:49:33.640 But yeah, it's, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna complain much except for the backgrounds. 00:49:34.180 --> 00:49:36.400 No, I've no, I'm absolutely not going to complain. 00:49:36.540 --> 00:49:41.260 I'm interested in what changes and developments there are, 00:49:41.500 --> 00:49:47.400 as well as what kind of new and exciting things 00:49:47.520 --> 00:49:48.680 they're doing. 00:49:49.520 --> 00:49:52.120 And obviously, this is the safe option. 00:49:52.280 --> 00:49:54.120 There are fewer of those new and exciting things. 00:49:54.120 --> 00:49:55.340 But you've mentioned the hare. 00:49:55.900 --> 00:49:59.080 I did notice the torch in the cave, 00:49:59.130 --> 00:50:00.720 although I wasn't sure that we hadn't had 00:50:00.870 --> 00:50:01.860 something like that before. 00:50:02.540 --> 00:50:05.460 And obviously, one of the major features of this story, 00:50:06.120 --> 00:50:09.660 And it is quite important to the story and it's reasonably well realized 00:50:09.740 --> 00:50:11.100 is all of the kind of vapor stuff. 00:50:11.160 --> 00:50:13.700 I mean, it's, it's just an overlay, but it works well. 00:50:13.880 --> 00:50:19.440 So there are things that, and in particular, if you do compare it to the 00:50:19.920 --> 00:50:21.960 recons, which are mostly just. 00:50:22.540 --> 00:50:23.280 Tele snaps. 00:50:23.900 --> 00:50:26.980 Some of those things are the things that really do make a difference because 00:50:27.060 --> 00:50:30.600 you've got to see, you know, the vapor moving to understand what the threat is. 00:50:31.140 --> 00:50:37.380 There are instant short sections of very 3d animated sequences in the 00:50:37.520 --> 00:50:40.440 telesnaps for reasons that I have no idea. 00:50:41.619 --> 00:50:41.980 Why? 00:50:42.140 --> 00:50:42.240 Yeah. 00:50:42.380 --> 00:50:44.080 They've done that for a couple of them, I think. 00:50:44.100 --> 00:50:46.340 And they do that in the evil of the Daleks one as well. 00:50:46.980 --> 00:50:47.160 Yeah. 00:50:47.780 --> 00:50:48.060 Yeah. 00:50:48.700 --> 00:50:49.020 Weird. 00:50:49.300 --> 00:50:49.540 Okay. 00:50:49.780 --> 00:50:50.920 Just somebody said I could do it. 00:50:51.400 --> 00:50:52.060 Put your hand up. 00:50:52.080 --> 00:50:52.720 All right, go ahead. 00:50:53.560 --> 00:50:58.780 I, yeah, I, I guess I'm going to, I'm going to plant my flag and say that. 00:50:59.300 --> 00:51:02.220 Typically speaking, low grade animation. 00:51:02.880 --> 00:51:05.200 No, that's a, that's a bad way to phrase it. 00:51:05.660 --> 00:51:09.540 Let's just say I grew up watching Scooby-Doo and Hannah Barbera cartoons. 00:51:10.420 --> 00:51:12.680 And there is a style to that. 00:51:13.000 --> 00:51:18.880 And there is, you know, a certain, a certain amount of we're doing this on a low 00:51:19.160 --> 00:51:23.940 budget and, and that level of animation, you hit that level of animation and I 00:51:23.780 --> 00:51:24.560 I don't notice it. 00:51:24.960 --> 00:51:29.900 You have to drop below that before it starts bothering me, 00:51:30.320 --> 00:51:32.160 or I start noticing it. 00:51:32.460 --> 00:51:34.480 Or you have to really pick up your game. 00:51:34.940 --> 00:51:39.260 Like I said, if somebody puts the original Snow White 00:51:39.380 --> 00:51:40.860 or Sleeping Beauty in front of you, 00:51:41.340 --> 00:51:44.440 you can tell that somebody spent a lot of time 00:51:44.620 --> 00:51:45.800 drawing that by hand. 00:51:47.040 --> 00:51:49.420 There is above and beyond. 00:51:50.180 --> 00:51:52.380 But there's a wide range in between those two 00:51:52.340 --> 00:52:00.100 I just don't care and won't notice. So the fact that stories like the Ice Warriors, I think it's 00:52:00.160 --> 00:52:05.400 the Ice Warriors, where I noticed that the, you know, the arms looked like they'd been pinned on 00:52:05.480 --> 00:52:12.360 with brads and were spinning at the elbows. It's terrible. That I noticed, that's worse than 00:52:12.480 --> 00:52:19.940 Scooby-Doo animation. You know, we could go back all the way to the, like the, what was the Sylvester 00:52:19.940 --> 00:52:24.280 McCoy when we started doing animation, it's not even a recreation. It's original stories 00:52:24.990 --> 00:52:30.500 way, way back. Those are terrible. Yeah. You know, done on computers. Yeah. Yeah. 00:52:31.480 --> 00:52:37.280 Those I spot all the original animation for Shada. Yes. Very bad. Very kind of basic. 00:52:38.319 --> 00:52:44.040 That's not an on way, but, but jarring to my idea of what animation needs to look like to, 00:52:44.200 --> 00:52:48.820 to achieve, to achieve sufficient enough for me to then ignore the fact that I'm watching 00:52:48.820 --> 00:52:57.520 animation. So what I was getting at is I would not have noticed just for some reason something 00:52:57.660 --> 00:53:02.700 about the way the hair did when she was turning her head. I'm like, that's different. And 00:53:02.700 --> 00:53:08.900 that caught my mind. And then I started watching the animation. Up to that point, I was completely 00:53:09.280 --> 00:53:15.080 just paying attention to the story. More important than that. I had already kind of copped onto 00:53:15.060 --> 00:53:20.260 the, the backdrops looking a little dodgy at that point, but because they'd captured 00:53:20.360 --> 00:53:22.740 her and they'd had that whole thing with the ravine and this, that and the other. 00:53:22.780 --> 00:53:26.620 And I'm like, yeah, I'm just, you're not getting that from what we're, what they've put on 00:53:26.660 --> 00:53:27.040 the screen. 00:53:27.220 --> 00:53:31.400 But so it was from that point forward, then I started looking at the animation and going, 00:53:31.520 --> 00:53:37.640 I think they've done better here than they have in the past, but web of fear, you know, 00:53:38.140 --> 00:53:42.220 web of fear, that one triggered my, something's wrong with the animation. 00:53:42.900 --> 00:53:44.720 That that's, that's that. 00:53:44.980 --> 00:53:47.460 We don't have to read it up. 00:53:47.560 --> 00:53:51.840 I think it's the same thing that gets me about the CG animation is that there's a certain 00:53:51.920 --> 00:53:56.840 amount of bobbing and weaving going on that everybody's sort of always moving. 00:53:58.340 --> 00:54:07.600 I do kind of think that we're still at the point where a 2D animation is a better fit 00:54:07.780 --> 00:54:10.680 for, I don't know, the budget that they have for doing this. 00:54:10.700 --> 00:54:14.400 for whatever reason, they cannot make a 3D animation 00:54:15.240 --> 00:54:17.700 work really well, but they can, 00:54:18.660 --> 00:54:21.340 using their kind of simple tricks and savvy, 00:54:22.220 --> 00:54:25.840 they can make a 2D animation look good most of the time, 00:54:26.660 --> 00:54:28.980 unless for some foolish reason, 00:54:29.120 --> 00:54:30.960 they do a long shot of people walking, 00:54:31.180 --> 00:54:33.240 which they do a number of times in The Savages, 00:54:33.540 --> 00:54:35.420 and it still looks awful. 00:54:36.060 --> 00:54:38.740 But it's really the only time where I, you know, 00:54:38.780 --> 00:54:43.720 have what you're describing, that moment of being sort of taken out of the story to look 00:54:43.780 --> 00:54:45.720 at the animation because of how bad it is. 00:54:46.380 --> 00:54:52.960 Yeah. So going back to the Scooby-Doo analogy, I don't know, you may have never seen Scooby-Doo 00:54:53.000 --> 00:54:59.380 in your life. I don't know. I watched a lot of it as a kid. And there is a animation of 00:54:59.460 --> 00:55:04.540 the group walking that they use over and over and over and over again, right? Each, and 00:55:04.540 --> 00:55:06.720 Each person has their own style of walking. 00:55:07.720 --> 00:55:11.340 And they're always in the same order and it's, they're just recycling 00:55:11.440 --> 00:55:12.500 it over and over and over again. 00:55:13.080 --> 00:55:16.760 I noticed that they're recycling it over and over again, but it gets the job done. 00:55:16.990 --> 00:55:22.000 If they could get it that good for them walking through a group of people, it'd be okay. 00:55:22.090 --> 00:55:25.160 The problem is it's a different group of people each time. 00:55:25.180 --> 00:55:25.340 Yeah. 00:55:25.480 --> 00:55:29.140 Each time, you know, they're, they're in the city with flour and whatnot, or 00:55:29.220 --> 00:55:32.860 they're in the countryside for want of a better word with. 00:55:33.040 --> 00:55:34.940 I wonder if they use the same technique though. 00:55:35.420 --> 00:55:40.400 I mean, in other words, do they, do they make, I don't know, however many 00:55:40.620 --> 00:55:41.980 frames, let's, let's make it up a number. 00:55:42.180 --> 00:55:46.660 Do they make 20 frames of one cycle of taking steps? 00:55:47.060 --> 00:55:47.380 Yes. 00:55:47.840 --> 00:55:48.060 Yes. 00:55:48.340 --> 00:55:48.460 Yeah. 00:55:48.600 --> 00:55:52.960 However many, and then just replay it over and over again, or are they actually kind 00:55:53.060 --> 00:55:55.120 of, because they're doing it with a computer. 00:55:55.140 --> 00:55:59.480 I also think they're not necessarily bothering to personalize it. 00:55:59.740 --> 00:56:02.220 You know, when you're talking about Scooby-Doo and you've got multiple episodes, 00:56:03.640 --> 00:56:10.080 It's worth Scooby and Thelma and Yogi, and I've run out of memory of names of the characters, 00:56:10.400 --> 00:56:12.120 having their own individual steps. 00:56:13.150 --> 00:56:18.400 You know, that you actually can tell, as it were, who they are from the way that they 00:56:18.680 --> 00:56:19.240 walk. 00:56:19.880 --> 00:56:25.340 But they're not doing that in this because they're animating a character who appears 00:56:25.400 --> 00:56:32.420 to walk in that way once and is one of a dozen characters who has to walk in that way. 00:56:32.520 --> 00:56:36.180 some point during the episode, so they all walk in an identical way. And I understand 00:56:36.920 --> 00:56:43.800 why they need to make that cost saving. I think my argument would be, please just don't 00:56:43.840 --> 00:56:48.400 have the long shots. Please, please do a three-quarter shot. 00:56:48.930 --> 00:56:49.060 [Crosstalk] 00:56:49.060 --> 00:56:56.280 Yeah, exactly. Exactly. You don't need to, or just have them stop for a moment. And I 00:56:56.280 --> 00:56:56.580 I don't know. 00:56:57.620 --> 00:56:59.340 It's the one thing for some reason 00:56:59.500 --> 00:57:00.720 that does take me out of it. 00:57:04.980 --> 00:57:07.260 - So anything else on the animation? 00:57:08.540 --> 00:57:12.420 - Not on this animation in particular. 00:57:13.320 --> 00:57:13.760 - Okay. 00:57:14.460 --> 00:57:15.900 On any other animation in particular? 00:57:16.680 --> 00:57:18.620 - Well, I wondered if you'd seen some of the comments 00:57:18.740 --> 00:57:22.040 that were made at the BFI when this was shown. 00:57:22.940 --> 00:57:23.340 - No, I haven't. 00:57:23.940 --> 00:57:26.560 So, because some of the animators were talking, 00:57:26.560 --> 00:57:29.820 I think some of this stuff is bar chat from afterwards, 00:57:30.640 --> 00:57:34.640 and they were saying that nothing had been inked yet, 00:57:35.380 --> 00:57:38.160 but discussions were happening with BBC Studios. 00:57:39.060 --> 00:57:42.500 They are not making another Doctor Who story, 00:57:43.200 --> 00:57:45.640 but they are expecting to be not only 00:57:46.200 --> 00:57:47.660 making a new Doctor Who story, 00:57:48.340 --> 00:57:51.860 but beginning some kind of an arrangement 00:57:51.860 --> 00:57:54.800 where they are making more than one at once. 00:57:55.520 --> 00:57:59.400 And to be clear, these are the animators that, 00:57:59.460 --> 00:58:01.520 you know, we've got two lots of animators working on it. 00:58:01.580 --> 00:58:03.300 We don't know that Big Finish or whoever 00:58:03.760 --> 00:58:05.980 aren't making another Doctor Who story 00:58:06.640 --> 00:58:08.140 and a Doctor Who animation at this minute. 00:58:08.300 --> 00:58:11.540 And we could still get another one in 2025 with any luck. 00:58:12.160 --> 00:58:15.180 But what they're saying is rather than them 00:58:15.600 --> 00:58:18.560 doing nine months of animating, releasing the serial, 00:58:18.900 --> 00:58:24.120 And then only when it's kind of gone out the door, do they even start work on the next 00:58:24.260 --> 00:58:24.440 one? 00:58:25.080 --> 00:58:30.640 They could be getting one started and then beginning to work on the next one because 00:58:30.720 --> 00:58:32.640 they are reusing some of the assets. 00:58:33.100 --> 00:58:36.900 I mean, not in this case, but we've, we've seen that discussed before. 00:58:37.640 --> 00:58:41.700 You know, if you're, if they're doing multiple trout and cereals and they did a whole number 00:58:41.760 --> 00:58:45.260 of them, was it season five or six? 00:58:45.400 --> 00:58:45.840 I forget. 00:58:46.320 --> 00:58:47.980 Um, five, I think. 00:58:48.700 --> 00:58:52.140 And so, you know, rumors, of course. 00:58:52.960 --> 00:58:54.860 What else do we get when we're talking about Doctor Who? 00:58:55.060 --> 00:59:01.180 But that would be quite exciting if we were going to get a slightly faster throughput 00:59:01.800 --> 00:59:02.680 on the animations. 00:59:03.660 --> 00:59:09.880 Not least because it might mean that the Blu-ray box sets get more of the stories animated by 00:59:10.000 --> 00:59:10.880 the time they come out. 00:59:11.440 --> 00:59:17.540 Yeah, because I'm still ticked off that someday I'm going to have to buy the Blu-ray set again 00:59:17.540 --> 00:59:22.960 with the crusade on it or you're going to have to buy the crusade separately i don't know that 00:59:23.020 --> 00:59:27.320 they're going to release the set again of course they will i think you're going to have to just 00:59:27.480 --> 00:59:34.800 stick stick the crusade in there on your shelf between one and two or two and three and it's 00:59:34.850 --> 00:59:41.680 going to stick out like a sawsome that is that is just that is not acceptable fucker you're gonna 00:59:41.810 --> 00:59:47.520 but actually anyway this is going to release it okay i cannot tell you how many times i've 00:59:47.520 --> 00:59:53.360 bought Sharder before I got the copy that's in the box set. And I was still happy about 00:59:53.360 --> 00:59:59.760 it because they'd broken Sharder up into six episodes. So, you know, every cloud has a 00:59:59.840 --> 01:00:00.260 silver lining. 01:00:00.780 --> 01:00:05.500 I haven't re-bought the Power of the Daleks new animation. 01:00:06.240 --> 01:00:12.080 No, I didn't either actually. Yeah, I might end up buying it one day if it weren't for 01:00:11.900 --> 01:00:17.320 the fact that I know that there will be a either that version or an even better version 01:00:17.500 --> 01:00:23.700 and even more updated version when the Blu-ray set comes out for season four. 01:00:24.480 --> 01:00:24.600 Yeah. 01:00:24.960 --> 01:00:25.120 Okay. 01:00:25.320 --> 01:00:33.020 So I'm just going to, I'm going to add here, uh, let's take a look at season three of Dr. 01:00:33.200 --> 01:00:33.420 Who. 01:00:34.140 --> 01:00:35.400 We've got galaxy four now. 01:00:35.920 --> 01:00:37.600 We do not have a mission to the unknown. 01:00:37.820 --> 01:00:39.160 We don't have the myth makers. 01:00:40.320 --> 01:00:41.620 Dalek master plan. 01:00:42.340 --> 01:00:43.240 That's a biggie. 01:00:43.840 --> 01:00:44.140 Yeah. 01:00:44.760 --> 01:00:45.440 That is a biggie. 01:00:45.440 --> 01:00:46.000 The massacre. 01:00:46.630 --> 01:00:48.400 You don't have the arc. 01:00:48.410 --> 01:00:50.500 We do the celestial toy maker. 01:00:50.500 --> 01:00:52.600 We do now the gunfighters. 01:00:52.920 --> 01:00:53.020 Woo. 01:00:53.440 --> 01:00:54.780 Hope they animate that someday. 01:00:55.480 --> 01:00:59.380 And so we've got the savages and yes, the next one is the war machines. 01:01:00.160 --> 01:01:03.640 And then it's the smugglers and then the 10th plan. 01:01:04.220 --> 01:01:05.940 And it's, it's the smugglers, isn't it? 01:01:05.940 --> 01:01:11.300 that when they animate that, doesn't that pretty much wrap up season four? 01:01:11.960 --> 01:01:15.260 Well that's because actually season four I was when I was talking earlier I was 01:01:15.360 --> 01:01:19.120 saying there's that sequence of Troughton animation starting with the 01:01:19.120 --> 01:01:23.700 Macra Terra faceless ones evil of the Daleks that's season four. Season four is 01:01:23.740 --> 01:01:28.960 the smugglers, 10th planet, power of the Daleks, the Highlanders. Oh the Highlanders 01:01:29.040 --> 01:01:35.120 we haven't got. Yeah. Underwater, moon base, Macra Terra, faceless ones, evil of the 01:01:34.940 --> 01:01:40.120 So yeah, if they could just crank out the smugglers and the Highlanders, which sounds 01:01:40.200 --> 01:01:42.480 to me like two they could be working on at the same time. 01:01:43.160 --> 01:01:47.400 Although I don't know, is the Smugglers set in space or is the Smugglers set down near 01:01:48.940 --> 01:01:50.160 the coast of Cornwall? 01:01:50.580 --> 01:01:51.400 Something like that. 01:01:52.240 --> 01:01:55.900 Where Patrick McGowan was running around as the Spectre or whatever it was. 01:01:56.400 --> 01:01:56.780 Scarecrow. 01:01:57.460 --> 01:02:02.560 It's going to be a complicated one and the Highlanders is going to be a complicated one. 01:02:03.380 --> 01:02:12.440 We know from comments that Charles Norton has made that they're not as intimidated by those episodes as they were when the project started. 01:02:12.760 --> 01:02:14.540 So I wouldn't rule them out at all. 01:02:15.200 --> 01:02:21.380 Now, I'd really like to, I'd really like to see them all. All of them, even the historicals from all the old ones. 01:02:21.900 --> 01:02:25.400 Just do them. Sell me the Blu-ray. I'll buy it. 01:02:25.400 --> 01:02:32.900 I want to mention one more thing that's not animation, not the story, another aspect of 01:02:32.900 --> 01:02:38.100 the production, but I want to mention it because I want to know if you noticed it, because 01:02:38.140 --> 01:02:41.520 it's one of those things that we tend to talk about, which was the soundtrack. 01:02:42.600 --> 01:02:44.560 Okay, two things came to mind. 01:02:45.480 --> 01:02:50.740 The music sucks and the sound quality was pretty good. 01:02:51.320 --> 01:02:57.360 The sound quality was good and I've seen Mark Ayres talking about the fact that as they 01:02:58.000 --> 01:03:02.880 go on through this project, the remaining stories are more and more dodgy. 01:03:03.580 --> 01:03:06.940 So even the work that he had to do cleaning this up was quite extensive. 01:03:07.660 --> 01:03:13.840 But then again, as we've kind of talked about the animation technology advancing, so do 01:03:13.920 --> 01:03:20.680 the tools that are available and you know from the kind of AI tools that you can use 01:03:20.680 --> 01:03:28.360 in producing this podcast that you can clean up things relatively easily now without really 01:03:28.420 --> 01:03:33.640 having to touch them yourself when previously it would have been an incredibly time-consuming 01:03:33.780 --> 01:03:36.800 manual job that would have been too expensive to do. 01:03:37.280 --> 01:03:42.840 Now, I've taken some of the old podcasts where we were on Skype and only had recordings from 01:03:42.840 --> 01:03:51.160 my side of the computer, so Ben sounded like he was on the end of a tin can. And surprisingly 01:03:51.380 --> 01:04:00.660 good rebuilds of those have been possible, and I'm not Mark Ayres, you know? And he's 01:04:00.680 --> 01:04:05.100 a pro with a whole lot more at his disposal than me. 01:04:07.320 --> 01:04:13.660 I, I, I wanted to say that I, I really liked the music for this serial. 01:04:14.420 --> 01:04:16.720 So I'm curious why you thought it was rubbish. 01:04:17.420 --> 01:04:19.720 I only noticed it twice in both places. 01:04:19.980 --> 01:04:23.260 I, I can't say it was intrusive. 01:04:23.500 --> 01:04:28.240 I only heard it like twice and both times I heard it, it was like, eh, eh, eh. 01:04:28.700 --> 01:04:31.620 So the rest of it maybe was there and I was just like, yeah, whatever. 01:04:32.160 --> 01:04:41.480 Because I liked it as music, but I've said before that I regard a successful score as 01:04:41.640 --> 01:04:44.800 being one that you don't notice. And I noticed this. 01:04:45.240 --> 01:04:46.520 Yeah, I'm not a night camper. 01:04:47.000 --> 01:04:51.200 Didn't, but yeah, well, yeah, but except that's the reason you're saying you didn't like it 01:04:51.260 --> 01:04:55.720 because it was intrusive. And I'm saying, I think it was a problem that it was intrusive 01:04:55.720 --> 01:04:59.200 because it didn't quite fit, didn't quite fit the story. 01:04:59.500 --> 01:05:01.560 So I enjoyed the music, 01:05:02.060 --> 01:05:03.880 but I didn't like it as a score for the serial. 01:05:04.560 --> 01:05:08.560 - Yeah, I'm definitely in the old school camp 01:05:08.720 --> 01:05:11.940 that you gotta have good music and it's gotta fit, 01:05:12.600 --> 01:05:16.260 but there are producers and it's a very common thing 01:05:16.520 --> 01:05:17.200 in modern times. 01:05:17.280 --> 01:05:19.600 It's like, if you, I think the, 01:05:19.820 --> 01:05:21.800 in when "Star Trek The Next Generation" was out, 01:05:21.900 --> 01:05:23.540 the producer, Rick Berman was like, 01:05:23.560 --> 01:05:26.520 if you can't hear there better not be a beat. 01:05:27.400 --> 01:05:29.200 And I don't want to hear it. 01:05:29.400 --> 01:05:30.440 It's like, why bother then? 01:05:30.800 --> 01:05:32.180 You can't hear it. Why bother? 01:05:32.560 --> 01:05:35.480 It doesn't it doesn't work in my mind. 01:05:36.360 --> 01:05:37.720 And it's just extraneous noise 01:05:38.300 --> 01:05:39.760 because you're not conscious of it. 01:05:40.320 --> 01:05:42.100 You're it's it's playing in. 01:05:42.720 --> 01:05:44.520 It's it's a subconscious element 01:05:45.140 --> 01:05:48.840 that affect your interpretation of the story in the way 01:05:49.400 --> 01:05:52.920 that Nina's moving hair affects. 01:05:53.200 --> 01:06:01.800 It does, because little things like twiddling the fingers, it's the absence of these things 01:06:01.840 --> 01:06:03.740 that you notice, not their presence. 01:06:04.500 --> 01:06:08.340 They don't appear to you because they seem right. 01:06:09.020 --> 01:06:11.220 And that's what an effective score does. 01:06:11.820 --> 01:06:12.140 It fits. 01:06:12.140 --> 01:06:14.460 I'm going to need to do some scientific research on this. 01:06:15.620 --> 01:06:16.620 I need a paper. 01:06:16.700 --> 01:06:19.880 I need peer-reviewed papers on this, because I don't buy it. 01:06:20.420 --> 01:06:21.800 I don't buy it. 01:06:23.180 --> 01:06:29.820 I've reminded myself of one other aspect of the animation I meant to mention as contrasted to 01:06:30.480 --> 01:06:37.300 the recon which was mentioning Nenina and whether you were aware of Nenina's costume 01:06:38.020 --> 01:06:44.500 being different in the animation. Nope because they don't know what her costume looked like in 01:06:44.500 --> 01:06:55.080 the show. She was more like the prototype savage for Leela, but she wears a sort of 01:06:55.120 --> 01:07:05.460 knee-length dress in the animation, which I assume is a kind of 2025 choice that in 01:07:05.540 --> 01:07:12.660 the 60s and 70s, they were going for the more scantily clad savage, for the female savages 01:07:12.660 --> 01:07:19.260 only obviously, but when it came to animating it was one of those things where they decided 01:07:19.420 --> 01:07:24.320 they didn't want to kind of reflect the decisions that were made at the time. I think there's 01:07:24.420 --> 01:07:27.340 another one in this because I find it hard. 01:07:27.380 --> 01:07:28.840 How about fewer moving parts? 01:07:29.460 --> 01:07:29.520 Sorry? 01:07:30.180 --> 01:07:32.900 Fewer moving parts for when you're animating. 01:07:33.640 --> 01:07:42.640 Well, possibly, but there's another kind of example of this as I understand it, which 01:07:42.640 --> 01:07:46.920 feel like I could see on the recons because they're black and white, 01:07:47.600 --> 01:07:51.220 but apparently the elders were bronzed up, 01:07:51.920 --> 01:07:56.600 for want of a better way of putting it. Their faces were colored bronze, 01:07:56.740 --> 01:07:58.900 and that hasn't come across in the animation. 01:07:59.640 --> 01:08:02.560 -Huh. Well, that goes with your white savages thing, doesn't it? 01:08:03.080 --> 01:08:03.540 -Indeed. 01:08:04.220 --> 01:08:06.720 -Because the savages definitely looked pretty pale. 01:08:07.380 --> 01:08:11.359 -Yes, and I don't know whether that was intended to be because they'd been drained of energy 01:08:11.360 --> 01:08:12.360 and they were looking more pale. 01:08:12.500 --> 01:08:14.400 In the animation, they were looking a bit gray, 01:08:15.240 --> 01:08:17.819 which I wondered was, was that supposed to be an artifact 01:08:18.060 --> 01:08:18.940 of having been drained? 01:08:19.120 --> 01:08:20.759 But I didn't really notice it changing 01:08:21.780 --> 01:08:24.540 when they were drained, so I wasn't sure. 01:08:25.240 --> 01:08:29.200 - Oh yeah, I'm looking at a image of, wow, 01:08:29.600 --> 01:08:30.980 that is a really low res image. 01:08:31.740 --> 01:08:34.960 Okay, yeah, Nanina's definitely got legs in there. 01:08:35.339 --> 01:08:36.279 Yeah, okay. 01:08:36.960 --> 01:08:38.380 - I don't know, I don't know. 01:08:38.960 --> 01:08:45.220 I mean, I haven't watched any of the behind the scenes material on it. 01:08:46.020 --> 01:08:53.859 So maybe we'll get, you know, like in the Abominable Snowman, we have chosen to portray 01:08:54.240 --> 01:09:02.640 the Tibetans as looking like Tibetans as opposed to white people in face. 01:09:03.859 --> 01:09:10.400 So I find it hard to believe that they would change her skirt though for that because never 01:09:11.339 --> 01:09:15.520 underestimate the depths of casual sexism present even today. 01:09:16.049 --> 01:09:17.620 I mean, I don't know. 01:09:17.779 --> 01:09:19.580 I don't... 01:09:19.580 --> 01:09:23.540 If you make a movie and it was set in the 60s, you wouldn't hide a miniskirt. 01:09:24.220 --> 01:09:26.880 This is true, but this is not set in the 60s. 01:09:27.480 --> 01:09:28.420 But in a way it is. 01:09:28.640 --> 01:09:30.880 I mean, it is the 60s. 01:09:31.380 --> 01:09:35.640 I can see how you wouldn't put that in blackface, but yeah. 01:09:36.290 --> 01:09:43.240 I think the argument for saying it's not gratuitous is saying it was the 60s when it was gratuitous. 01:09:43.240 --> 01:09:47.940 In other words, it's not gratuitous because it is gratuitous, and that's a difficult argument 01:09:48.060 --> 01:09:48.400 to make. 01:09:48.850 --> 01:09:50.279 It's hardly gratuitous now, though. 01:09:51.500 --> 01:09:53.940 Well, it's gratuitous in the sense it's unnecessary. 01:09:54.880 --> 01:09:59.160 Why should she be in a skimpy costume? 01:09:59.310 --> 01:10:01.140 Is it any more logical? 01:10:01.340 --> 01:10:02.280 Is it any more practical? 01:10:03.020 --> 01:10:04.040 By the way, what are the men wearing? 01:10:04.720 --> 01:10:08.160 I mean, I have no clue what the men were wearing on their legs. 01:10:08.160 --> 01:10:13.180 Were they wearing pants or were they also draped over in animal skins? 01:10:13.200 --> 01:10:14.980 They're wearing what we call trousers. 01:10:15.020 --> 01:10:15.560 Like a toga. 01:10:16.480 --> 01:10:16.840 Oh, okay. 01:10:16.900 --> 01:10:17.960 That's kind of odd. 01:10:18.020 --> 01:10:18.360 I'm not sure. 01:10:18.840 --> 01:10:20.200 I didn't see their legs. 01:10:20.400 --> 01:10:25.620 I don't know whether they were wearing togas or whatever, but they were not wearing briefs, 01:10:25.860 --> 01:10:26.680 let me put it like that. 01:10:27.200 --> 01:10:27.600 Okay. 01:10:28.380 --> 01:10:34.280 Yeah, pants here is trousers there. But in other words, are they actually wearing animal skins? 01:10:34.700 --> 01:10:41.280 Or are they wearing a pair of trousers, if you will? It's like, which wouldn't make sense. 01:10:41.280 --> 01:10:46.340 Definitely some skins and things. But on the other hand, I think even even in the animation, 01:10:46.520 --> 01:10:52.060 there were some bare shoulders on the women, whereas the the chaps all seem to have proper 01:10:52.060 --> 01:10:53.320 shirts of some sorts. 01:10:53.440 --> 01:10:59.900 So, uh, I, I think you'd have to argue that you were deliberately trying to 01:11:00.020 --> 01:11:05.720 recreate the 1960s gratuities in which case, you know, what's your argument 01:11:05.740 --> 01:11:09.360 for not doing bronze face if you're going to be offensive, tease a whole thing. 01:11:10.040 --> 01:11:10.620 All right. 01:11:11.380 --> 01:11:17.860 So I think if I've got this right next week, I can tell you right now, we're 01:11:18.080 --> 01:11:23.620 Going to be starting our coverage of the 2025 season of Dr. 01:11:23.700 --> 01:11:23.980 Who. 01:11:24.620 --> 01:11:26.220 Well, Hey, yeah. 01:11:27.420 --> 01:11:31.100 So we wanted to start it off with a good one, the savages. 01:11:31.900 --> 01:11:36.700 And, uh, and then, and then we've got, um, what is it? 01:11:36.840 --> 01:11:40.120 Eight weeks of eight weeks of yeah. 01:11:40.700 --> 01:11:40.900 Yeah. 01:11:40.980 --> 01:11:41.540 We shall see. 01:11:42.120 --> 01:11:44.420 Fingers crossed, fingers crossed, fingers crossed. 01:11:45.040 --> 01:11:45.900 All right, Simon. 01:11:46.040 --> 01:11:47.140 Thank you for joining me. 01:11:47.640 --> 01:11:54.340 It's a pleasure as always, and listeners, I do hope you'll join us all again next time on Fusion Patrol. 01:11:56.679 --> 01:12:00.540 You've been listening to Fusion Patrol. Thanks for listening. 01:12:02.680 --> 01:12:08.260 If you've enjoyed this episode, we hope you'll consider supporting us at buymeacoffee.com/fusionpatrol 01:12:08.800 --> 01:12:15.320 or patreon.com/fusionpatrol. For our monthly Patreon subscribers, we're currently running a 01:12:15.320 --> 01:12:23.860 special series on Babylon 5. Come join the conversation and find other content at FusionPatrol.com. 01:12:24.380 --> 01:12:29.860 And we're back on social media, where you can also follow us on Mastodon and the Fetiverse. 01:12:30.150 --> 01:12:34.320 Our address is at podcast@fusionpatrol.com. 01:12:36.570 --> 01:12:39.620 Our music is "Fight the Future" by Amberwolf. 01:12:42.480 --> 01:12:44.580 This has been a Lone Locust Production.