WEBVTT 00:00:08.040 --> 00:00:11.200 you're listening to fusion patrol a listener supported podcast 00:00:13.940 --> 00:00:18.360 each week we take a single episode of a science fiction tv series movie or 00:00:18.530 --> 00:00:24.980 audio and overanalyze it to within an inch of its life welcome to the discussion 00:00:31.720 --> 00:00:34.220 Hello and welcome to another episode of Fusion Patrol. I'm Eugene. 00:00:35.160 --> 00:00:35.660 And I'm Simon. 00:00:36.460 --> 00:00:39.420 And tonight, a little bit of a variation. 00:00:39.660 --> 00:00:48.480 It's very rare indeed that we know when an episode of Fusion Patrol is going to go out or where it's going to slot into the schedule. 00:00:49.200 --> 00:00:59.220 But we are recording this in the period of time between Doctor Who series 2024 episodes 6 and 8. 00:00:59.720 --> 00:01:05.540 And that's because episode 7, The Legend of Ruby Sunday, was a two-parter. 00:01:06.040 --> 00:01:10.340 And as is standard for Fusion Patrol, we try to treat the two-parters as one story. 00:01:10.440 --> 00:01:16.780 So we will be reviewing both of those, that and part 8, next week. 00:01:17.060 --> 00:01:22.680 So this week, perhaps not coincidentally, as a gift from the Doctor Who gods, 00:01:23.340 --> 00:01:26.440 the Celestial Toymaker animated recreation was released. 00:01:26.560 --> 00:01:29.580 And so this week, we're doing the Celestial Toymaker. 00:01:30.120 --> 00:01:35.480 We're going to start with an episode synopsis, as always, and move on from there. 00:01:35.760 --> 00:01:41.560 The Doctor mysteriously becomes invisible and intangible, and the TARDIS lands in a mysterious place. 00:01:42.160 --> 00:01:46.540 The Doctor suspects and later confirms that they are in the Celestial Toyroom. 00:01:46.960 --> 00:01:48.660 The domain of the Toymaker. 00:01:49.340 --> 00:01:51.760 The Doctor and the Toymaker have met before. 00:01:52.460 --> 00:01:55.580 The Toymaker brings people to his realm and makes them play games. 00:01:56.060 --> 00:01:58.660 If they lose, they become his toys forever. 00:01:59.220 --> 00:02:03.500 He wants the Doctor to stay, and so he forces the Doctor to play a game of Trilogic, 00:02:03.940 --> 00:02:06.860 with a maximum number of 1,023 moves. 00:02:07.520 --> 00:02:12.160 Meanwhile, Steven and Dodo are forced to play a series of physical games in order to find the TARDIS. 00:02:12.820 --> 00:02:14.360 Steven and Dodo have a deadline. 00:02:14.900 --> 00:02:19.460 They must win back the TARDIS before the doctor reaches 1,023 moves. 00:02:20.080 --> 00:02:23.980 When the doctor tries helping them, the toy maker makes the doctor intangible and mute, 00:02:24.720 --> 00:02:26.880 leaving only his hand available to play the game. 00:02:27.560 --> 00:02:31.980 First, Stephen and Dodo must navigate an obstacle course in a competition against two clowns. 00:02:32.300 --> 00:02:34.620 Stephen must navigate the course blindfolded, 00:02:34.780 --> 00:02:38.080 while Dodo gives him directions by honking the horn of a car. 00:02:38.680 --> 00:02:41.000 When the clown is caught cheating by using a see-through blindfold, 00:02:41.540 --> 00:02:45.000 he fails to complete the course, giving the win to Steven and Dodo. 00:02:45.540 --> 00:02:50.060 As a reward, they are given a riddle to solve and sent on to the next game. 00:02:50.700 --> 00:02:52.640 The next game is a variation of musical chairs. 00:02:53.240 --> 00:02:55.320 Players must pick one chair from seven to sit in. 00:02:55.720 --> 00:02:56.960 Six of the chairs are lethal. 00:02:57.640 --> 00:03:02.100 They compete with anthropomorphic cards, including a king, queen, knave, and joker. 00:03:02.720 --> 00:03:06.100 Throughout the competition, whenever the toymaker thinks the doctor is stalling, 00:03:06.360 --> 00:03:09.820 he penalizes the doctor by forcing the game forward a few hundred moves, 00:03:10.240 --> 00:03:12.040 putting more pressure on Stephen and Dodo. 00:03:12.840 --> 00:03:15.320 Stephen and Dodo defeat the chairs and are given another riddle, 00:03:15.820 --> 00:03:17.140 and moved to the next game. 00:03:17.820 --> 00:03:20.860 They are placed in a kitchen with Sergeant Rug and Mrs. Wiggs, 00:03:21.360 --> 00:03:23.300 and they must find a key to open the next door. 00:03:23.960 --> 00:03:26.400 Rug and Wiggs are there to be unhelpful, 00:03:26.820 --> 00:03:30.200 but they get into an argument which eventually reveals the location of the key, 00:03:30.340 --> 00:03:33.980 allowing Stephen and Dodo to move into the next room, the ballroom. 00:03:34.560 --> 00:03:39.420 They must cross a dance floor and not get trapped into dancing by the animated marionette dancers. 00:03:40.200 --> 00:03:43.820 Steven fails this spectacularly, and soon Dodo follows. 00:03:44.420 --> 00:03:50.600 Rug and Wiggs have also followed them with instructions from the toy maker to get to the TARDIS on the other side of the dance floor first. 00:03:51.260 --> 00:03:58.920 When Wiggs becomes trapped on the dance floor, Steven and Dodo maneuver themselves into a position to swap partners, and the two of them dance to the TARDIS. 00:03:59.500 --> 00:04:04.340 It is, of course, not the real TARDIS, but they have won another game and move on to the next. 00:04:04.960 --> 00:04:10.420 They reach the final game, and this time they must play a hopscotch game against a school bully named Cyril. 00:04:11.000 --> 00:04:13.840 The first to navigate the course and reach the TARDIS wins. 00:04:14.380 --> 00:04:17.260 According to the toymaker, Cyril doesn't like to lose. 00:04:18.260 --> 00:04:23.500 The game has several forfeits and isn't quite as straightforward as rolling the dice and hopping the number of squares. 00:04:24.240 --> 00:04:29.900 Of course, if they fall off the square, the area in between is electrified, and they will die. 00:04:30.640 --> 00:04:34.700 Steven and Dodo suffer several setbacks, including dirty tricks by Cyril. 00:04:35.200 --> 00:04:40.060 When it looks like Cyril is going to win, he slips on one of his own booby traps and falls to his death. 00:04:40.620 --> 00:04:41.980 Steven and Dodo have won. 00:04:42.700 --> 00:04:49.680 The doctor has been restored to visibility and tangibility, and he has also completed, almost, the Trilogic game. 00:04:50.280 --> 00:04:55.380 He is at 1,022 moves and has one move left that will win the game. 00:04:56.040 --> 00:05:00.540 He refuses to make the last move, insisting on inspecting his TARDIS and meeting with Steven and Dodo. 00:05:00.600 --> 00:05:02.660 They try to leave in the TARDIS, but cannot. 00:05:03.300 --> 00:05:06.240 The Doctor must finish the game, but there is a problem. 00:05:06.880 --> 00:05:08.100 The Toymaker is a sore loser. 00:05:08.700 --> 00:05:13.340 While technically honoring his agreement to let them go, there is a wrinkle. 00:05:13.900 --> 00:05:20.440 When the Toymaker loses to the Doctor, the Celestial Toyroom will be destroyed, including everything and everyone in it. 00:05:20.960 --> 00:05:28.380 The Toymaker will live on and create a new Toyroom, but the Doctor will have a Pyrrhic victory in that they will be destroyed too. 00:05:29.020 --> 00:05:37.640 Setting the TARDIS for automatic dematerialization, the Doctor, from inside the TARDIS, imitates the Toymaker's voice, commanding the game to complete the final move. 00:05:38.200 --> 00:05:42.520 Simultaneously, the TARDIS dematerializes, and the Celestial Toy Room is destroyed. 00:05:43.080 --> 00:05:45.840 The Doctor cautions Dodo and Steven about their success. 00:05:46.230 --> 00:05:49.820 The Toymaker will be back someday when another writer is bankrupt for ideas. 00:05:50.380 --> 00:06:05.580 All right. Animated, we should say. 3D animated. And we will, I'm sure, talk a lot about the 3D animation as we go. I believe by the exact same team that did the one part of Web of Fear. 00:06:06.160 --> 00:06:06.380 Correct. 00:06:07.160 --> 00:06:09.600 All right. Well, what did you think of the Celestial Toymaker? 00:06:10.160 --> 00:06:14.120 It was the TV stories with the Celestial Toymaker in. 00:06:14.760 --> 00:06:15.060 No, no. 00:06:15.350 --> 00:06:16.200 Hit rate. Huffage. 00:06:16.980 --> 00:06:17.320 No. 00:06:17.460 --> 00:06:22.760 no and that and that thing has i i've got like tons of background information on why that's so 00:06:22.980 --> 00:06:32.000 awful but uh yeah uh it's it's not a great story is it i mean it's not much of a story it is it is 00:06:32.560 --> 00:06:40.120 filler yes yeah i mean i i can kind of see the potential there and um yeah we're not not going 00:06:40.140 --> 00:06:49.480 of preempt your account of the production issue the original story went through and i'll go that 00:06:49.680 --> 00:06:59.380 the kind of limitations that that puts on it but by the time it actually gets made regardless of 00:06:59.380 --> 00:07:03.400 what we see on screen you know this is where the soundtrack that we're listening to comes from 00:07:03.480 --> 00:07:05.760 All those kind of limitations are in place. 00:07:06.540 --> 00:07:09.620 And it's a bit of a mess. 00:07:10.440 --> 00:07:16.080 The games that they play feel a bit unconnected and disjointed. 00:07:17.080 --> 00:07:21.620 And I think that just contributes to the sense that it is a filler episode. 00:07:22.460 --> 00:07:30.120 I don't know what's going on with the whole making Hartnell invisible and intangible. 00:07:30.420 --> 00:07:37.580 but i assume that's giving hartnell a couple of episodes off oh it's that and more yeah and then 00:07:38.460 --> 00:07:45.500 steven and dodo have to carry quite a lot of it and for my money they're not the most 00:07:46.100 --> 00:07:52.820 charismatic companion team ever yeah um they don't come off well in this story as a team no 00:07:53.140 --> 00:07:58.240 i don't think yeah well let's let's just uh let's talk a little bit i'll i'll run through what i've 00:07:58.200 --> 00:08:03.080 got here story was originally it was not intended to be a filler episode let's just start right 00:08:03.180 --> 00:08:09.100 there this was not intended to be a filler episode this was a story by brian hales and halls hales 00:08:09.740 --> 00:08:19.100 um i'm gonna go with hales um and it was apparently very dark and i my yeah i have a suspicion that 00:08:19.100 --> 00:08:25.499 it had a lot to do with the fact that the toys were people or had been people once i suspect 00:08:25.520 --> 00:08:32.060 but I'm I don't know I've been able to find that out because it is kind of odd how it's not it is 00:08:32.240 --> 00:08:37.700 but it's not there there is there is a sort of are they aren't they like Stephen doesn't believe 00:08:37.810 --> 00:08:43.580 they are Dodo does believe they are and I don't know that it's and at one point the toy maker says 00:08:43.780 --> 00:08:49.399 you will stay here forever and become my toys but there's no explicit all of these people are people 00:08:49.420 --> 00:08:56.440 who came here and played toys but i think that is absolutely true to the original intent because 00:08:56.440 --> 00:09:02.800 they lightened it up because i thought it was too dark all right so we'll we'll go uh we we have to 00:09:02.900 --> 00:09:09.600 say that the producer was it says ennis lloyd but the producer was not it was john wills and um 00:09:10.110 --> 00:09:18.940 the script editor was um what's his first name's last name's tosh uh donald tosh those are not the 00:09:18.860 --> 00:09:23.620 names you'll see on the credits and that is because well first off everybody hated wills 00:09:24.360 --> 00:09:30.560 particularly hartnell and hartnell hated and wills hated hartnell and uh they did not get along 00:09:31.280 --> 00:09:37.800 at all according to peter purvis nobody got along with wills the the producer he it was not a happy 00:09:38.000 --> 00:09:44.559 crew uh with him and he wanted to get rid of hartnell and this was him getting rid of hartnell 00:09:45.160 --> 00:09:50.160 So Hardenall was having a mental decline, as we know later wrote him out of the show. 00:09:50.900 --> 00:09:57.280 But they gave him two weeks off, and the plan, his contract was up at the end of this story. 00:09:57.920 --> 00:10:04.060 Will's plan was, when he became corporeal again at the end, to be a different actor. 00:10:05.280 --> 00:10:10.780 That something the toy maker did when he brought him back as part of the game was that he would be a different person. 00:10:10.860 --> 00:10:16.300 and that was the person who would go on being the doctor from that point forward and the people 00:10:16.540 --> 00:10:23.880 upstairs overrode that and gave gave hartnell another contract and so both tosh and wills 00:10:24.240 --> 00:10:29.900 quit and didn't give wills a contract well i don't know no they said they resigned i i don't know okay 00:10:30.560 --> 00:10:37.240 they they said he resigned in protest as from the things i saw which is why it got handed over to the 00:10:37.400 --> 00:10:45.100 script editor and the story editor uh let's see jerry davis and uh ennis lloyd on the credits so 00:10:45.100 --> 00:10:52.120 they got handed this thing that was set up but tosh had already rewritten it to try to reduce the 00:10:52.660 --> 00:11:00.460 to reduce the cost and the darkness uh and do things and then uh wills apparently or wiles 00:11:01.200 --> 00:11:07.360 probably wiles actually wiles uh apparently out of spite ran the budget on the arc over 00:11:07.670 --> 00:11:15.200 so there wouldn't be any money so a real jerkwad all around so then when they came in um jerry 00:11:15.380 --> 00:11:20.580 davis had to rewrite it again and according to the according to the things the script was still 00:11:20.580 --> 00:11:26.680 the tosh version with jerry davis's stuff handwritten in it to redo it to make it even 00:11:26.660 --> 00:11:34.380 cheaper they had uh the original intent was instead of hunt the key there was a maze some 00:11:34.520 --> 00:11:41.140 sort of diabolical maze that that got removed uh the there were supposed to be two characters in 00:11:41.140 --> 00:11:46.060 it called george and margaret they were the the opposition they were going to be the opposition 00:11:46.380 --> 00:11:52.779 throughout the whole thing it is an homage to a play from the 30s called george and margaret 00:11:53.360 --> 00:11:57.400 which I know nothing about except that apparently George and Margaret never appear in the play. 00:11:58.020 --> 00:12:00.080 It's all about people waiting for George and Margaret. 00:12:00.600 --> 00:12:07.680 And Hales, when he wrote this, thought it would be kind of amusing if George and Margaret were the two characters in it. 00:12:07.880 --> 00:12:10.720 And he had permission from the playwright to do this. 00:12:10.820 --> 00:12:11.220 A.T.? 00:12:11.580 --> 00:12:12.060 He did. 00:12:12.680 --> 00:12:17.300 But then later the playwright withdrew permission after they'd already cast the actors. 00:12:18.220 --> 00:12:21.360 So they rewrote this as part of the last minute rewrites. 00:12:21.540 --> 00:12:30.760 They rewrite the script so that George and Margaret were broken up into the two clowns, the card people and rug and wigs. 00:12:31.380 --> 00:12:36.580 And of course, they're all played by the same actors because those are the actors they hired to play George and Margaret. 00:12:37.240 --> 00:12:41.660 So there's another background problem that they had on this thing. 00:12:42.340 --> 00:13:09.280 I hadn't realised that they had had originally, or that Brian Hales had had permission from Gerald Savory to use the characters, because as I understood it, he became some senior producer in the BBC, across whose desk this script came, which was the point at which those characters were taken out of it. 00:13:09.320 --> 00:13:15.080 because obviously they he knew they were his and he didn't want them in there i i can't say that i 00:13:15.120 --> 00:13:22.280 have that authoritatively i found that on two different history of the toy maker i you have to 00:13:22.300 --> 00:13:31.060 go yeah yeah it could be um there's another one of these things that you might be thinking about 00:13:31.120 --> 00:13:39.740 and that's billy or cyril billy bunter billy bunter right uh they wrote this school boy 00:13:40.340 --> 00:13:46.840 character cyril and i guess as they were building out the episode they decided from a costuming 00:13:47.600 --> 00:13:53.800 acting standpoint they decided to have him dress and act like billy bunter who i have never heard 00:13:53.900 --> 00:14:00.360 of before looking this up there is nothing in the script there is nothing in the script about billy 00:14:00.360 --> 00:14:08.220 bunter the line that cyril says where he says uh my name's cyril my friends call me billy is an ad 00:14:08.320 --> 00:14:14.360 lib and to yaru is that an ad lib that i don't know that i don't know and is that a thing billy 00:14:14.520 --> 00:14:20.000 bunter says or is that i just assume that was a thing old british people said like from eaton or 00:14:20.140 --> 00:14:24.559 something so i mean i that i don't know because because i'm not familiar with that character but 00:14:25.100 --> 00:14:32.580 the bit about Billy absolutely an ad lib and they just didn't couldn't remove it and so when that 00:14:32.800 --> 00:14:38.940 episode aired the estate or the author of the Billy Bunter books got in contact with him and said ah 00:14:38.950 --> 00:14:46.280 we're gonna sue you and so at the end of episode four there was a continuity announcement that said 00:14:46.820 --> 00:14:53.220 the character of Cyril is not Billy Bunter he just was dressing like him because he liked him 00:14:53.100 --> 00:14:59.800 or something to that effect to try to ameliorate the threat of a lawsuit over this. 00:15:00.860 --> 00:15:01.480 Let's see. 00:15:01.740 --> 00:15:10.980 We should put in here that basically Lloyd and Davis felt that this episode should have been dropped, 00:15:11.820 --> 00:15:13.280 but it wasn't in their hands. 00:15:13.690 --> 00:15:19.020 And then Tosh, who had written the second version of the script, hated what Davis had done to it. 00:15:19.060 --> 00:15:27.760 So, you know, all around, nobody's happy with this with this story, except apparently Peter Purvis, who was like, hey, I get the lead. 00:15:29.400 --> 00:15:37.580 And then, just for one more, you will not see it in the Blu-ray version of this. 00:15:38.090 --> 00:15:42.720 If you listen very, very carefully, you can tell where it is. 00:15:43.460 --> 00:15:50.860 But there's a line that says the queen tells the king to pick one at random. 00:15:52.640 --> 00:15:57.020 And the script apparently says, pick one by using the eeny-meeny. 00:15:57.780 --> 00:16:05.040 and he does and he clearly apparently says eeny meeny miny moe catch a n-word by the toe 00:16:05.700 --> 00:16:12.680 which is how it aired and went out in this version what you hear is pick one around 00:16:16.720 --> 00:16:24.419 this one all right so they just they mumble him out uh in there you can you can get the flow of 00:16:24.520 --> 00:16:26.060 the eeny meeny miny 00:16:26.760 --> 00:16:28.500 but the words aren't there. 00:16:29.240 --> 00:16:31.240 So did you check the recons? 00:16:32.260 --> 00:16:32.800 No, I did not. 00:16:33.300 --> 00:16:33.940 I was just curious 00:16:34.220 --> 00:16:34.860 whether they had 00:16:35.160 --> 00:16:36.000 done the same thing there. 00:16:36.000 --> 00:16:36.540 I mean, obviously 00:16:37.000 --> 00:16:38.500 the animations are 00:16:38.500 --> 00:16:39.600 in a sense a new production. 00:16:39.780 --> 00:16:40.740 They've got the opportunity 00:16:41.480 --> 00:16:42.260 as we've discussed 00:16:42.440 --> 00:16:43.320 on some of the previous animations 00:16:43.800 --> 00:16:44.860 to edit the soundtrack. 00:16:45.680 --> 00:16:46.200 And so clearly 00:16:46.340 --> 00:16:47.120 they've taken the opportunity 00:16:47.260 --> 00:16:47.620 to do that. 00:16:47.620 --> 00:16:48.760 I wonder if they'd have done it 00:16:48.880 --> 00:16:50.160 on the recons 00:16:50.420 --> 00:16:51.660 just for, you know, 00:16:51.680 --> 00:16:52.880 they're not going to release 00:16:53.060 --> 00:16:54.400 something with the N-word 00:16:54.420 --> 00:16:59.920 and slightly audible i like the way they did it i'm going to say that a lot of things in this 00:17:00.540 --> 00:17:06.360 this reproduction i like the way they did it instead of doing the eeny meeny miny moe 00:17:06.400 --> 00:17:13.959 catcha and then have somebody else say tiger by the toe uh which is you know i i can honestly say 00:17:13.959 --> 00:17:20.420 when i was a kid you know was during the transition period from the older version to the tiger version 00:17:20.939 --> 00:17:29.520 both were used uh somewhat interchangeably when i was a kid in the early 70s so i you know then um 00:17:30.200 --> 00:17:35.900 but you know doing that would be awful the other thing of just dropping it out catch up by the 00:17:36.460 --> 00:17:39.940 would be terrible but the fact that they just took the whole line which is really irrelevant 00:17:40.760 --> 00:17:42.100 and kind of turned it into a 00:17:44.299 --> 00:17:49.520 works really well they do actually still run a subtitle that says eeny meeny miney 00:17:50.120 --> 00:17:55.120 and then even though he really isn't saying that at that point he's just sort of mumbling it but 00:17:55.680 --> 00:18:02.020 so yeah all sorts of production problems on this on this thing no money third time rewritten script 00:18:02.530 --> 00:18:12.160 uh lawsuits drama behind the camera uh an actor they're trying to fire uh yeah it was all kicking 00:18:12.180 --> 00:18:18.920 this one it's it's amazing it's as passable as it is and it's not very passable but it's amazing 00:18:19.530 --> 00:18:26.880 uh to be and and also and i learned this white literally today and well late last night so it 00:18:26.880 --> 00:18:33.460 actually was probably today and i verified this with my wife uh who is ethnically chinese uh 00:18:33.840 --> 00:18:42.140 apparently in the 19th century the word celestial was a racial slur for chinese i've never heard 00:18:42.160 --> 00:18:49.640 for see i i did i did not know that i did not know that so the celestial toy maker i mean obviously 00:18:49.720 --> 00:18:55.220 it's the title of this serial but the toy maker has referred to in the giggle i assume was only 00:18:55.380 --> 00:19:01.060 referred to as the toy maker they did not use the word celestial yes my ignorance made this whole 00:19:01.180 --> 00:19:11.540 thing seem less racist than it is but also i i was expecting it to be worse it has a certain 00:19:11.560 --> 00:19:20.580 reputation but also doctor who has done worse and i i was you know they've got the the toy maker 00:19:21.250 --> 00:19:27.420 done up in these in this chinese costume which i believe again comes down to cost savings they're 00:19:27.480 --> 00:19:33.220 just it's from marco using marco polo yeah you know he's not putting on the he's not putting 00:19:33.220 --> 00:19:39.500 on yellow face and he's not you know trying to do the accent or or something like that this is just 00:19:39.400 --> 00:19:43.620 But this is what I was expecting from the reputation for it. 00:19:43.620 --> 00:19:45.360 I was expecting there to be yellow face. 00:19:46.010 --> 00:19:53.000 And, you know, because I have watched the Talens of Wang Chiang. 00:19:54.040 --> 00:19:54.560 That's worse. 00:19:54.590 --> 00:19:54.900 I know. 00:19:55.620 --> 00:19:59.180 Well, yeah, that was the kind of level I was expecting. 00:19:59.340 --> 00:20:00.480 So I'm not, I'm not, I'm not. 00:20:01.220 --> 00:20:03.960 There are still issues around cultural appropriation in this. 00:20:04.540 --> 00:20:18.880 And obviously, the Celestial Toymaker is, you know, if it's a historical racial slur, and clearly coupled with the costumes that he used in it, there is an intention to use it in that way. 00:20:19.340 --> 00:20:23.300 That's unacceptable either, but it's just, I thought it was going to be worse. 00:20:23.500 --> 00:20:24.840 Not much of an excuse, but still. 00:20:25.180 --> 00:20:34.680 I should say, when I say I verified with this with my wife, what I verified with my wife is that she had no clue that this was in any way a slur. 00:20:35.300 --> 00:20:36.860 I've never heard that in my life. 00:20:37.440 --> 00:20:39.760 I have in no way. 00:20:39.800 --> 00:20:43.760 And I've heard a lot of slurs about various ethnic groups. 00:20:43.960 --> 00:20:48.800 And that is not one for Chinese or anyone that I've ever heard. 00:20:49.160 --> 00:20:50.880 And so I did a little bit of digging on it. 00:20:51.740 --> 00:20:53.580 And I'm giving this one a pass. 00:20:54.360 --> 00:20:58.440 I'm not giving anyone who is using it as a slur as a pass. 00:20:59.190 --> 00:21:02.220 OK, but that word is not a slur anymore. 00:21:03.320 --> 00:21:08.260 And it is only that word because that's the Chinese word for themselves. 00:21:09.420 --> 00:21:11.900 Now, they have a they have a different word now. 00:21:12.600 --> 00:21:16.400 But back in the 19th century, they referred to themselves and I dug it up and I showed it to my wife. 00:21:16.450 --> 00:21:19.400 And she's like, OK, that's basically what that means. 00:21:19.540 --> 00:21:20.740 This is what they called themselves. 00:21:21.360 --> 00:21:28.800 They basically had came from the heavenly empire and they were the they were the heavenly people who lived in it. 00:21:29.340 --> 00:21:39.380 So I can totally see how if somebody came over, if somebody walked into your house and said, I'm from the heavenly empire and I'm one of the heavenly people. 00:21:39.910 --> 00:21:49.460 I can totally see people picking that up as a smart ass way to sneer at them, because that's the kind of egotistical thing. 00:21:49.520 --> 00:21:57.340 you can't walk into a room and do and not deserve to get called out on should not be used as a slur 00:21:57.780 --> 00:22:03.100 but i can totally see where it comes from and i can totally see why it's not one anymore because 00:22:03.740 --> 00:22:08.900 i i asked quite a few people what the celestial mean and it all none of it came back to this 00:22:09.500 --> 00:22:14.719 it's all to do with the heavens or with the stars or with you know not necessarily the astronomical 00:22:14.740 --> 00:22:25.720 stars but the mythical astrological kind of stuff it's like it's kind of a cool word but it's not 00:22:26.260 --> 00:22:32.420 it had that context is gone but that was that was that was the it without without that the 00:22:32.620 --> 00:22:39.760 celestial toy maker was i thought it the fact that he is somehow on another plane you know what we're 00:22:39.760 --> 00:22:48.420 getting in season 40 or whatever we're calling it with the idea of there being these fantasy gods 00:22:49.280 --> 00:22:55.360 you know this this was the way in which i think it was suggested that's the toy maker and he is 00:22:55.380 --> 00:23:01.180 he is incredibly powerful in this so you know and it is it is fantasy it is fantasy so i thought that 00:23:01.720 --> 00:23:08.079 was why it was the celestial toy maker all this time nevertheless if you look in miriam webster 00:23:08.560 --> 00:23:14.160 it will give you a definition of celestial that says old name for china of or relating to china 00:23:14.280 --> 00:23:21.060 or the chinese that's when you know that right but that's their own it's a it's not saying it's a 00:23:21.240 --> 00:23:28.800 slur okay it's still a problem i think because when you know that the celestial toy maker coupled 00:23:29.240 --> 00:23:36.439 with the fact that he is wearing the marco polo costume is saying the chinese toy maker right 00:23:36.840 --> 00:23:43.960 it could be i i have i have a very hard time divorcing celestial from the context that i 00:23:44.060 --> 00:23:51.400 have it in which is sure me too and that fits perfectly with this thing there's nothing chinese 00:23:51.680 --> 00:23:57.780 about it at all right except for the costume the toy makers were absolutely nothing about it yeah 00:23:58.440 --> 00:24:04.600 is anything other than the other way yeah without the costume i think it becomes much less of a 00:24:04.420 --> 00:24:11.100 problem and it's interesting that they have kept the costume you know we we were speculating on 00:24:11.240 --> 00:24:16.300 whether they would turn some of this stuff down in the animation but he's still wearing a costume 00:24:16.520 --> 00:24:23.180 that is recognizably marco polo style costume you compare it to the to the publicity photos and it's 00:24:23.380 --> 00:24:30.200 pretty similar i would say yeah i mean i i don't know i i honestly don't know how the the chinese 00:24:30.220 --> 00:24:35.720 people and that's awfully broad category as to whether or not that is a thing that that bothers 00:24:35.800 --> 00:24:42.600 them because i can tell you i can find a picture of me dressed just like that and uh and they did 00:24:42.660 --> 00:24:51.020 it to me so uh in my wedding chinese people yes the taiwanese but yeah you know republic of china 00:24:51.660 --> 00:24:58.760 uh my wedding photos they do these elaborate albums where they put you in tuxedos and they 00:24:58.680 --> 00:25:05.280 put you in all sorts of different the particularly the women my wife went through i don't know 10 12 00:25:05.880 --> 00:25:12.060 costume changes i went through about four black tux mouth dinner jacket white dinner jacket and 00:25:12.180 --> 00:25:20.280 then a red and a yellow mandarin outfit but it's context isn't it it is yeah one is not you know 00:25:20.440 --> 00:25:26.980 it's not the same as a so and i'm i'm not saying that the chinese be i'm not expecting there to be 00:25:27.000 --> 00:25:34.980 edicts from the um chinese communist party saying that you know we we decry the west and 00:25:35.680 --> 00:25:43.020 it's 1966 episode of doctor who the celestial toy maker without but without context and of course 00:25:43.560 --> 00:25:48.820 that's the problem with this world is that people act on without context uh if somebody saw the 00:25:48.920 --> 00:25:55.360 picture of me they would immediately go oh cultural misappropriation yeah it was it was 00:25:55.280 --> 00:26:03.180 their culture doing this to me quite literally so i i don't know i mean do they care some some 00:26:03.360 --> 00:26:09.200 people care some people don't care as a whole i don't know i i do like the way they handle it in 00:26:09.200 --> 00:26:13.380 the giggle because it's not cultural misappropriation if you just make fun of the germans 00:26:13.640 --> 00:26:18.200 so it's okay to be racist to them there right that's exactly what they did right they just 00:26:18.360 --> 00:26:23.760 demonstrated actually in a way they were worse no i'm gonna go out they were worse in the giggle 00:26:24.360 --> 00:26:30.180 because in the giggle he did the accent i thought the giggle was offensive obviously 00:26:30.600 --> 00:26:35.240 not considered as offensive it would never have got through if it was but i considered it to be 00:26:35.400 --> 00:26:41.440 offensive so i mean if you're gonna if you're gonna say you can't ever put somebody who is 00:26:41.560 --> 00:26:48.059 not a culture in anything else of another culture because it's cultural misappropriation then you 00:26:47.960 --> 00:26:55.800 have to deem that as offensive too i just consider it would i don't but because i just you know are 00:26:55.800 --> 00:27:02.180 we differentiating between the english and the germans i'm not um but yeah but because he was 00:27:02.360 --> 00:27:09.060 doing the accent then he's definitely putting on german face if there is indeed such a i mean 00:27:09.240 --> 00:27:14.340 apart from he didn't have the mustache i mean i think i think they're not directly comparable but 00:27:14.360 --> 00:27:23.940 I think the issue for me is that that kind of anti-German sentiment and anti-German discrimination is not long forgotten. 00:27:24.300 --> 00:27:25.900 Or maybe it's not forgotten by people. 00:27:26.020 --> 00:27:27.340 I mean, it's not forgotten by people. 00:27:27.400 --> 00:27:28.200 I still remember it. 00:27:28.200 --> 00:27:32.360 I hope that it is something that is kind of no longer around. 00:27:32.540 --> 00:27:40.560 but I don't see the value in adding it into a popular TV show 00:27:40.660 --> 00:27:45.380 for some cheap laughs in 2020, or 2023. 00:27:46.200 --> 00:27:48.100 I don't think he did it for cheap laughs. 00:27:48.240 --> 00:27:52.880 I think he did it to kind of soften this. 00:27:53.560 --> 00:27:55.080 Like, this is what the Toymaker does. 00:27:55.180 --> 00:27:57.440 We only have one example of what the Toymaker does 00:27:58.040 --> 00:27:59.880 in the Celestial Toymaker, 00:28:00.060 --> 00:28:03.540 And that's his, he wears, he wears Chinese clothes and he's not Chinese. 00:28:04.919 --> 00:28:09.580 And so in the giggle, he's demonstrating that he likes to put on other, I don't know. 00:28:09.740 --> 00:28:12.660 He looked a little French when he was dancing around the chaos. 00:28:14.400 --> 00:28:15.700 Maybe it's my imagination. 00:28:15.900 --> 00:28:20.440 That's the way the French dress, but that, that might be a stereotype. 00:28:20.640 --> 00:28:24.840 I'm not a hundred percent sure, but you know, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the 00:28:24.740 --> 00:28:32.700 just a uh just a way of showing that like the next time the toymaker shows up he'll probably 00:28:32.800 --> 00:28:38.320 be dressed as um i don't know we're rapidly running out of other white people that he can 00:28:38.700 --> 00:28:44.260 play i don't i don't i'm not i'm not i'm not gonna buy that you know he wasn't american he 00:28:44.340 --> 00:28:50.800 made fun of americans too well obviously that's right yeah like well yeah because he is one 00:28:52.100 --> 00:28:57.900 but but i'm not i'm not necessarily buying that the rtt's agenda was driven by wanting to sanitize 00:28:58.110 --> 00:29:05.060 the the original cereal and i don't think that that any of the kind of big finish stories 00:29:05.960 --> 00:29:13.000 or you know the nightmare affair which was based on a an unmade script but solitaire or magic 00:29:13.240 --> 00:29:18.340 mousetrap attempted to do anything related to that either they took other aspects of 00:29:18.840 --> 00:29:23.420 the toymaker's personality that are established in this story, including, incidentally, the idea 00:29:23.540 --> 00:29:31.720 that he traps people through his games and built, frankly, Nightmare Fair accepted, rather better 00:29:31.980 --> 00:29:39.020 stories around it than either this or The Giggle. So I don't think it adds anything. I mean, 00:29:39.630 --> 00:29:44.560 to what you might say, but I don't think the kind of cultural appropriation aspects add anything. 00:29:44.780 --> 00:29:49.240 Certainly don't think the use of racist ethic adds anything. 00:29:50.100 --> 00:29:53.740 And just before we move on from all of the kind of production stuff, 00:29:53.940 --> 00:29:58.240 I'm just going to comment on, thank goodness they didn't replace Arnold. 00:29:59.100 --> 00:30:01.840 And I'm not saying that because I'm the biggest Arnold fan, right? 00:30:01.940 --> 00:30:04.500 He's fairly low down my list of favourite Doctors. 00:30:04.870 --> 00:30:12.480 But if this were the story that established there being a change of actor in the lead in Doctor Who, 00:30:12.680 --> 00:30:15.320 that would have been instead of regeneration. 00:30:16.260 --> 00:30:19.220 And regeneration is such a great concept, 00:30:19.580 --> 00:30:24.040 and I have absolute confidence that that is why the show is still going to stay. 00:30:24.320 --> 00:30:28.020 Especially since the next episode would have been the gunfighters, 00:30:29.840 --> 00:30:30.820 as you can imagine. 00:30:31.140 --> 00:30:34.000 I do want to say one of the things that I don't know, 00:30:34.180 --> 00:30:37.200 again, I would love to be able to find the original Brian Hill script, 00:30:37.700 --> 00:30:40.520 and I haven't found any evidence that the script still exists. 00:30:41.140 --> 00:30:46.780 there is definitely talk there that big finish will probably if if they have it if it exists 00:30:46.800 --> 00:30:52.880 big finish will make it uh there is some indication that the toy maker the reason the toy maker the 00:30:52.920 --> 00:30:59.640 doctor of menace because the toy maker is a time lord or one of the doctor's race as they put it 00:31:00.120 --> 00:31:06.440 in that in that framework because they haven't invented time lords yeah basically like a menacing 00:31:06.560 --> 00:31:13.780 month yeah yeah i mean actually the the the comparison and it's interesting it hadn't occurred 00:31:13.780 --> 00:31:20.460 to me all the way through the season 40 you know or shooty season one however we want to call it 00:31:20.860 --> 00:31:30.580 the the list of these kind of equivalent um powers um beings shall we call them including 00:31:31.320 --> 00:31:39.100 obviously the toy maker but also uh maestro the trickster i forget who else uh and i'm not going 00:31:39.100 --> 00:31:44.260 to mention one in case people are listening to this out of order but the mind robber what about 00:31:44.440 --> 00:31:50.940 the mind robber what about the master of the land of fiction because in terms of comparisons to this 00:31:51.120 --> 00:31:58.680 story and obviously i'm i've seen the mind robber i first saw that is one of the first doctor who 00:31:58.620 --> 00:32:04.800 serials I saw I think it was one of the ones that was repeated in BBC on BBC 2 in the early 90s 00:32:05.240 --> 00:32:10.100 I watched it then I thought wow this you know this is brilliant and this show is brilliant 00:32:10.770 --> 00:32:17.080 but in a way it's doing a lot of similar things to what the Celestial Toymaker is doing and I heard 00:32:17.230 --> 00:32:22.200 I think probably at the time or soon afterwards those comparisons to this story but it kind of 00:32:22.520 --> 00:32:29.000 slipped out of my mind but that that i think is an example of how you do this thing of saying 00:32:29.290 --> 00:32:35.040 right there are these incredibly powerful beings and we are going to expand you know already we're 00:32:35.040 --> 00:32:38.840 a sci-fi show where you can travel anywhere in time and space but we're going to expand beyond 00:32:39.140 --> 00:32:46.880 that into an a realm of fantasy that goes beyond the kind of mere physical and that is so much 00:32:46.880 --> 00:32:51.920 better than the way they've done it here yeah including of course writing out one of the 00:32:52.140 --> 00:32:59.040 characters temporarily but anyway we don't need to go the mind robber just now so i'll i don't know 00:32:59.120 --> 00:33:07.560 that i have a lot about this story i'm gonna say that this one raises a lot of conflicting emotions 00:33:07.700 --> 00:33:15.400 in me about this story it's a terrible story i don't like the toy maker character i don't like 00:33:15.940 --> 00:33:24.220 the just wasted time of them playing those stupid games i i do not like this story if i watched this 00:33:24.360 --> 00:33:28.820 doctor who story i'd go yeah this is another one that if it stayed lost it could stay lost forever 00:33:29.280 --> 00:33:34.620 i don't you know i'm happy to have it back there are still many others i'd rather have 00:33:35.160 --> 00:33:40.320 this is certainly not like uh enemy of the world which everyone thought would be not worth having 00:33:40.380 --> 00:33:47.020 but then they got it back and they go actually not bad uh kind of thing uh and then bleeding 00:33:47.220 --> 00:33:52.740 over just a little bit i think the animation is hideous sorry animators i appreciate what you're 00:33:52.840 --> 00:33:59.900 doing and yet at the same time i think they did a brilliant job with it i just don't like the art 00:34:00.100 --> 00:34:08.200 style huh okay right i mean i i i i think the fact that they just went whole hog and said let's 00:34:08.580 --> 00:34:16.440 make the celestial toy room freaking weird let's let's go with it that you know that's this story 00:34:16.770 --> 00:34:26.159 this story is pretty bad let's give it all we can to to flesh it out so that it has some scope 00:34:26.780 --> 00:34:32.340 and you know we have we have had this discussion about the animations whether or not they should 00:34:32.399 --> 00:34:38.179 remain 100 faithful or whether they should go out on a limb and i don't think i've ever been on the 00:34:38.200 --> 00:34:40.080 You should go way out on the limb edge. 00:34:40.820 --> 00:34:42.460 But for this one, go. 00:34:43.639 --> 00:34:45.060 Like, go and keep going. 00:34:45.320 --> 00:34:46.860 Take that limb out there as far as you want. 00:34:47.200 --> 00:34:54.120 I think that was the best solution they could come up with for trying to polish a sow's ear. 00:34:55.139 --> 00:34:56.159 Mixing my metaphors. 00:34:56.580 --> 00:34:58.520 Well, I mean, okay. 00:34:59.080 --> 00:35:05.120 I'm happy that this is finally the example I needed to prove my point about this, I think. 00:35:05.560 --> 00:35:12.740 Because Big Finish have been pushing on the let's actually do what's possible now, 00:35:13.670 --> 00:35:20.080 rather than stay within the constraints of trying to recreate what would have been on screen at the time 00:35:20.700 --> 00:35:24.060 because of sets and budgets and all the other limitations. 00:35:24.940 --> 00:35:32.120 So, you know, the Reign of Terror, they got reined in on that one because they were going to anime on it. 00:35:32.680 --> 00:35:40.580 And I, you know, listeners can go back to our discussion if they've forgotten, but I'm pretty sure I said at the time, go more anime on it. 00:35:40.720 --> 00:35:46.100 Let's, you know, let's make these animations new productions because they are new productions. 00:35:46.210 --> 00:35:51.040 You can't pretend they are the originals and they still don't look like the originals. 00:35:51.200 --> 00:35:54.040 So I'm going to agree with you on that. 00:35:54.680 --> 00:35:56.980 I'm going to agree with you on the art changes. 00:35:57.540 --> 00:36:02.740 I'm just going to have some caveats about some of the particular changes that they made. 00:36:02.780 --> 00:36:15.460 But generally speaking, I am pretty happy that what they did with the toy room was take something that was a pretty, you know, it's a high concept thing. 00:36:15.700 --> 00:36:20.860 This kind of fantasy world in which things can be essentially created out of pure thought. 00:36:21.460 --> 00:36:24.260 But in a TV studio, they can't be created out of pure thought. 00:36:24.480 --> 00:36:27.340 You've probably got to make them out of wood and nails and bits of paper. 00:36:28.080 --> 00:36:32.320 and what they've done in the animation is take that and go beyond what you could do 00:36:33.080 --> 00:36:40.520 on a 1966 budget but not only that they have gone beyond what you can do within the constraints of 00:36:41.020 --> 00:36:46.240 physics like yeah you could have thrown as much money as you liked at this you would have needed 00:36:46.700 --> 00:36:57.400 cgi to have steven kind of jump off one block and land on another block at 90 degrees and just still 00:36:57.420 --> 00:37:03.900 be balancing on it and to walk across a plank that's twisted and have gravity twist around 00:37:04.500 --> 00:37:12.040 with him as he walks but that that kind of warping your mind sense of it is i think what 00:37:12.620 --> 00:37:18.580 the story was trying to get across in the first place so the animators are taking the the concept 00:37:19.320 --> 00:37:22.740 okay it's not there in the soundtrack because the soundtrack obviously had to be performed 00:37:22.760 --> 00:37:26.740 in the context of doing this in a TV studio as it was in 1966. 00:37:27.430 --> 00:37:31.260 But they're taking that idea and in ways which don't contradict that soundtrack, 00:37:32.040 --> 00:37:35.120 they are realizing it in a much more fantastical way. 00:37:35.120 --> 00:37:36.660 And I do think that adds to the story. 00:37:37.340 --> 00:37:41.820 Yeah, I think this is bound to be much better than the original in that respect. 00:37:43.700 --> 00:37:48.920 It is much more consistent with The Giggle as well. 00:37:49.680 --> 00:37:56.340 And it does kind of make these two seem like they are interrelated in their nature. 00:37:56.660 --> 00:37:58.280 So, yeah. 00:37:59.380 --> 00:38:07.840 And, you know, there's a making of the animation, and I feel really bad when I'm watching the making of the animation. 00:38:08.100 --> 00:38:11.620 They're talking about how, you know, they're having a lot of fun with it. 00:38:11.720 --> 00:38:14.740 That's cool, and it's great, and now they're going to do the artwork. 00:38:14.890 --> 00:38:16.900 And I'm like, I do not like the artwork. 00:38:17.700 --> 00:38:23.080 I appreciate the artwork a little bit more after watching the making of, 00:38:23.720 --> 00:38:26.160 simply because in the making of, 00:38:26.160 --> 00:38:31.780 they say that they are going for a portrait painting style on the characters. 00:38:31.920 --> 00:38:32.920 And I watched the episodes. 00:38:33.020 --> 00:38:33.680 I look at it and I go, 00:38:33.740 --> 00:38:37.200 this is not good computer animation for a couple of reasons. 00:38:37.540 --> 00:38:40.100 One of which is just the people just do not look right. 00:38:40.660 --> 00:38:41.780 Listen to the making of, 00:38:41.780 --> 00:38:44.040 they talk about how what they've done is they've gone for trying. 00:38:44.280 --> 00:38:44.340 Well, 00:38:44.380 --> 00:38:44.700 I didn't, 00:38:44.920 --> 00:38:45.840 they didn't say oil painting, 00:38:46.020 --> 00:38:47.160 but in other words, 00:38:47.240 --> 00:38:50.320 They're trying to make them look like paintings rather than realistic. 00:38:50.540 --> 00:38:51.740 And then you watch it again. 00:38:52.300 --> 00:38:53.840 And I have watched bits of it again. 00:38:54.120 --> 00:38:56.620 And you look at the faces and you go, yeah, all right, I can see it. 00:38:57.240 --> 00:39:00.280 It is not intended to look like Steven's face. 00:39:00.400 --> 00:39:04.220 It's meant to look like an oil painting of Steven's face. 00:39:04.700 --> 00:39:11.520 And when you get to that, then it's a little, all right, I'm not sure that works in my mind. 00:39:12.620 --> 00:39:12.700 Right? 00:39:12.920 --> 00:39:13.920 Because you're trying to bring it out. 00:39:14.060 --> 00:39:15.020 You're trying to make it pop. 00:39:15.140 --> 00:39:22.280 Once they make animation pop in 3D, once they go to 3D animation, my brain wants it to go realistic. 00:39:22.920 --> 00:39:27.240 I don't like that halfway ground between animation and not realistic. 00:39:27.780 --> 00:39:29.560 It's not quite the Uncanny Valley. 00:39:30.340 --> 00:39:34.200 Well, that says they're already venturing into the Uncanny Valley, I think. 00:39:34.800 --> 00:39:40.120 I don't think you can get away from the fact that... 00:39:40.140 --> 00:39:54.260 So if you compare this, which is a collaboration between Big Finish and Shapeshifter, I think you mentioned that it was the same people doing the single episode of Web of Fear. 00:39:54.880 --> 00:39:58.900 Yeah, that we got reanimated a few years back now. 00:39:59.560 --> 00:40:05.540 And so they were using the 3D techniques that they're using for this. 00:40:05.540 --> 00:40:06.880 Not exactly the same techniques. 00:40:07.180 --> 00:40:12.220 They've adapted them in certain ways, but essentially the same principles. 00:40:12.560 --> 00:40:14.740 They're doing motion capture. 00:40:14.900 --> 00:40:19.340 They're getting real actors to recreate certain scenes. 00:40:20.120 --> 00:40:26.520 They're capturing that motion and they're using that in order to animate their 3D models. 00:40:27.220 --> 00:40:41.940 But the art style from The Web of Fear is not a million miles from the art style of other big Finnish 2D animations like Fury from the Deep or The Abominable Snowman. 00:40:42.500 --> 00:41:03.040 Right. It's not like this, right? If this is supposed to be a kind of artistic rather than photorealistic, it's still compared to what we have been used to much more realistic than we have had. 00:41:03.600 --> 00:41:16.880 And that's why I much, much prefer the Web of Fear animation, because it's much more like sketch drawing than it is, if you want to call this oil painting. 00:41:17.660 --> 00:41:23.400 All right, we'll call it oil painting. I'm not sure I see it myself, but it's more in that direction. 00:41:24.440 --> 00:41:31.160 And I find that I'm not getting that kind of cognitive dissonance. 00:41:31.640 --> 00:41:32.900 Because I agree with you. 00:41:32.910 --> 00:41:37.860 I think you notice things like the faces aren't quite right much more 00:41:38.720 --> 00:41:41.340 when everything else is getting so much closer. 00:41:42.080 --> 00:41:44.720 It's a good rendering of what the studio would have looked like. 00:41:44.900 --> 00:41:47.880 It's a very good rendering of some of the elaborate elements of the set, 00:41:48.000 --> 00:41:48.600 like the big house. 00:41:49.320 --> 00:41:52.260 It's a reasonable rendering of the bodies, 00:41:53.190 --> 00:41:55.660 and the motion is obviously based on motion capture. 00:41:56.340 --> 00:41:59.320 But the faces are still looking pretty weird. 00:41:59.800 --> 00:42:05.320 Oddly enough, they're looking better in color, I think, than they are in black and white, which is a shame because... 00:42:05.320 --> 00:42:06.360 You don't paint in black and white. 00:42:07.080 --> 00:42:08.640 You don't paint in black and white. 00:42:09.600 --> 00:42:10.780 Not oil painting, no. 00:42:11.430 --> 00:42:13.020 Well, again, they said painting. 00:42:13.170 --> 00:42:14.480 They didn't say oil painting. 00:42:14.720 --> 00:42:15.440 So it could be watercolor. 00:42:15.590 --> 00:42:16.040 I don't know. 00:42:17.219 --> 00:42:20.480 She said they were going for this painting like they were doing. 00:42:21.120 --> 00:42:25.020 Because you can't do it realistically, so they've opted to artistically go that. 00:42:25.980 --> 00:42:26.040 Yeah. 00:42:26.500 --> 00:42:32.420 I will say you brought this up a couple of times there, and this is my other point. 00:42:33.040 --> 00:42:36.360 Do you remember what my complaint about the animation in the Web of Fear was? 00:42:36.800 --> 00:42:37.980 You found it very distracting. 00:42:38.130 --> 00:42:39.380 They kept moving all the time. 00:42:40.020 --> 00:42:41.260 The motion capture sucks. 00:42:41.920 --> 00:42:45.400 I'll go that far, and I'll say it still sucks in this. 00:42:46.060 --> 00:42:47.220 It has the same problem. 00:42:47.400 --> 00:42:55.860 It's like they've hired theater actors, and they said, now, when you're doing this motion capture, remember, the audience is 100 feet away. 00:42:56.340 --> 00:43:02.620 So you gotta really keep moving and you gotta make it big or no one will notice, which is 00:43:02.720 --> 00:43:05.080 not true because you are not a hundred feet away. 00:43:05.560 --> 00:43:06.420 You're right in their face. 00:43:06.530 --> 00:43:10.260 And so their movements do not look, they still do not look natural. 00:43:10.510 --> 00:43:14.820 I did not even realize this was motion capture until I watched that document and I thought, 00:43:14.940 --> 00:43:17.040 eh, this is just more of that CGI stuff. 00:43:17.640 --> 00:43:22.020 It's not as bad as the motion capture was in the 2D, but I think that's because the 00:43:22.180 --> 00:43:24.160 2D have a different expectation. 00:43:24.880 --> 00:43:27.940 They don't expect motion capture 2D animation. 00:43:28.500 --> 00:43:30.640 Although that's not technically true because when I was a kid, 00:43:30.700 --> 00:43:33.600 they used to rotoscope a lot of stuff on Saturday morning. 00:43:34.000 --> 00:43:34.980 Have they used 2D? 00:43:35.500 --> 00:43:36.940 Have they used motion capture for 2D? 00:43:37.520 --> 00:43:37.820 Sure. 00:43:38.040 --> 00:43:39.460 Well, they did for Web of Fear. 00:43:40.240 --> 00:43:41.340 They used motion capture for it. 00:43:41.800 --> 00:43:43.020 I didn't think it was 3D, was it? 00:43:43.580 --> 00:43:47.500 I mean, if you think about Fury from the Deep, for example, 00:43:47.800 --> 00:43:49.800 I mean, I don't remember a lot about the animation in that, 00:43:49.880 --> 00:43:51.940 but I'm pretty sure one of the things we commented on 00:43:51.960 --> 00:43:58.640 was the way in which the movement of their arms was extremely bad and quite distracting. 00:43:58.980 --> 00:44:02.220 So I think in some respects, this is better. 00:44:02.230 --> 00:44:04.840 And I think the reason for going big in the movement, 00:44:05.860 --> 00:44:10.540 I agree there was something about the way in which the web of fear, 00:44:10.590 --> 00:44:13.020 the motion was slightly over the top, 00:44:13.070 --> 00:44:16.980 which I think was partly in contrast to the way that they were drawn. 00:44:17.780 --> 00:44:28.580 But I think you can't play this as naturalistic as you would if it were live action when you're doing the motion capture, because only so much gets captured. 00:44:28.800 --> 00:44:42.660 It's not like you've got an actual camera pointed at you and it's not like the facial expressions or whatever are going to be anything like as subtle or detailed as the facial expressions would be if it were live action. 00:44:43.460 --> 00:44:50.600 Now, I know the word you're going to throw out here at me when I say this, but that is not true. 00:44:52.280 --> 00:44:56.140 They can motion capture it so damn good that you can't tell. 00:44:56.170 --> 00:44:59.760 You just have to look at any of the new Planet of the Apes films or... 00:45:00.280 --> 00:45:01.600 What's the word going to be? Budget. 00:45:02.260 --> 00:45:04.380 Budget, that's the word. That's exactly the word. 00:45:04.690 --> 00:45:11.820 But there's my question is how exactly, where is the piece of the budget that comes into it? 00:45:11.920 --> 00:45:17.140 are they not allowed to have as many sensors on the costume could do they not have as big a hard 00:45:17.340 --> 00:45:24.080 drive to put the motion capture data in where where does the budget cut down on the quality 00:45:24.800 --> 00:45:29.280 i don't know i you know many many more animators to do it wouldn't they because it's not like 00:45:29.920 --> 00:45:35.440 that it's not like they they get this stuff from the motion capture and they just render that 00:45:35.640 --> 00:45:39.539 directly into a finished animation there's an awful lot of work that goes on in between 00:45:40.220 --> 00:45:44.600 and the more detail that you try and do within that I think the more difficult it's going to be 00:45:45.000 --> 00:45:49.660 I'd also add to that that I think you're going to have to how can I put this you'll 00:45:50.680 --> 00:45:56.960 try to avoid using the word better you're going to have to hire different actors because the more 00:45:57.100 --> 00:46:01.760 that the motion capture captures those nuances and those kind of facial expressions and everything 00:46:02.220 --> 00:46:07.840 the more you're actually going to have to match the quality of the actors that you originally had 00:46:07.860 --> 00:46:16.100 So, you know, you're not going to just hire some circus performer having a day off from some local show. 00:46:16.920 --> 00:46:28.900 You're going to have to hire someone who has experience in television, has the kind of caliber that I guess, you know, is going to match our expectations for this. 00:46:29.100 --> 00:46:32.000 So I do think there is a budget element to it. 00:46:32.140 --> 00:46:32.240 Yes. 00:46:32.780 --> 00:46:46.160 Yeah, I just, I'm curious as to where it falls when it comes to the, it's one thing on the face, but when it comes to the motion of the arms and the legs, it still feels like it's all. 00:46:46.440 --> 00:47:00.700 And here's a specific example, the clown, the motion capture for the clown, the male clown, Joey, I think it was, was somebody with actual clown experience training. 00:47:01.520 --> 00:47:09.000 And so watching him, and I did watch him again after learning that, I can totally see it. 00:47:09.360 --> 00:47:16.760 He does have that sort of oddly exaggerated clowny kind of movement to him. 00:47:17.360 --> 00:47:23.100 And yet it still seems up one step too many again, just like everything else. 00:47:23.560 --> 00:47:26.860 It's right, but it's right in a wrong way. 00:47:27.380 --> 00:47:29.800 But he's a clown clown. 00:47:29.940 --> 00:47:31.800 He's not a TV clown. 00:47:32.180 --> 00:47:37.640 Like, I don't, I think probably you're talking about a fairly small niche when you're into TV clowns. 00:47:38.100 --> 00:47:41.440 Most clowns are going to be people whose audience is 100 feet away. 00:47:42.180 --> 00:47:44.560 Yeah, I'm not even sure he actually was a clown. 00:47:44.680 --> 00:47:45.560 He'd just been to clown school. 00:47:46.260 --> 00:47:48.840 So he had some clown training. 00:47:49.920 --> 00:47:52.120 Yeah, but what they're teaching is how you do it. 00:47:52.120 --> 00:47:52.860 And it's in Australia. 00:47:53.110 --> 00:47:55.440 So, you know, you're out in the outback. 00:47:55.680 --> 00:48:00.720 the audience is a bunch of dingo people straight out yeah that kind of thing um 00:48:02.780 --> 00:48:07.380 it's just i don't know they look drunk i think that's part of it they look drunk to me 00:48:08.200 --> 00:48:15.820 they they sort of yeah sway and uh you know when they and i'm sure i probably said this 00:48:16.620 --> 00:48:22.680 ages ago because this is this comes to mind every time i think of this if you look oddly enough we're 00:48:22.700 --> 00:48:26.240 talking the planet of the apes films again but we talk about the original planet of the apes films 00:48:26.460 --> 00:48:33.560 which had that amazing makeup that they did that won them an academy award looks very real but what 00:48:33.560 --> 00:48:40.500 the actors had learned was that it does not look real if you don't keep moving it is it so they 00:48:40.640 --> 00:48:47.859 all had to develop these they just they just subtly be moving their faces at all times and 00:48:47.880 --> 00:48:53.980 as long as you do that the mask looks alive if you stop moving the mask looks like a mask does it and 00:48:53.980 --> 00:49:01.400 i wonder if that's part of the if that's part of the remit to these people don't stop moving if you 00:49:01.600 --> 00:49:06.780 stop moving it looks like we stopped animating or something possibly it does we don't you know we 00:49:06.880 --> 00:49:12.480 don't know how much worse it looks the other way it's not it's not perfect yet and i would say the 00:49:12.500 --> 00:49:20.040 quality of the animation is actually a lot better than it was for web of fear but and i i realize 00:49:20.300 --> 00:49:27.180 i'm in a minority of probably about one with this because i love the web of fear animation the the 00:49:27.220 --> 00:49:34.060 kind of the reason that the swaying in that wasn't so much of a problem was because it looked much 00:49:34.160 --> 00:49:39.680 more stylized again because the drawings were not anything like as kind of close to to being 00:49:39.760 --> 00:49:45.360 photorealistic as they are you know them again you know they're okay they look like paintings 00:49:45.640 --> 00:49:51.440 they're moving in that direction so yeah and with web of fear you looked at it and you didn't get 00:49:51.620 --> 00:49:59.180 any sense that it was intended to be in any way realistic and so to some degree the motion is 00:49:59.940 --> 00:50:08.940 part of the style that the drawing the the the art is also a part of so from that point of view 00:50:09.160 --> 00:50:13.460 The animation may not have been as good, but it didn't need to be for me. 00:50:14.160 --> 00:50:16.020 Here's what I would have liked them to have done. 00:50:16.380 --> 00:50:21.340 I do think this is the perfect episode for them to recreate with what they've done here, 00:50:21.840 --> 00:50:26.200 because I think the 3D animation looks surreal, not real. 00:50:27.720 --> 00:50:32.820 I kind of would have really liked if they're going to go hog in and say, 00:50:33.440 --> 00:50:35.860 we're, you know, we're mounting a new production. 00:50:36.280 --> 00:50:43.740 I would have liked to have seen that scene in the TARDIS at the beginning, maybe at the end, done in the style of Web of Fear. 00:50:44.340 --> 00:50:48.720 And as they step out into the toy room, transition into this. 00:50:49.460 --> 00:50:53.880 Because, like I say, it's the perfect episode for this surreal look because it's a surreal world. 00:50:54.980 --> 00:50:57.120 And they could have, I don't know. 00:50:57.940 --> 00:51:03.060 That might have made it to a point where people who do not like the computer graphics would go, 00:51:03.380 --> 00:51:09.900 well you know that's part of the surrealism of this story and and and maybe be a little more 00:51:10.120 --> 00:51:16.480 forgiving because i can't i can't help but believe that there won't be people who do not like this 00:51:16.840 --> 00:51:23.060 recreation just like people who really hated the web of fear how much of that first scene is part of 00:51:23.500 --> 00:51:29.340 the cliffhanger to the arc i'm not sure enough of it i was just thinking because i think the 00:51:29.300 --> 00:51:56.060 Doctor Disappearing was. Yeah. Right. The ideal thing would obviously be if you had enough of the original footage to do that, because it's a great idea. I think you're right about it. I think the problem would be that the Web of Fear, rather, animation style, it's not naturalistic. So it's not going from naturalism into this fantasy realm. It's going from one fantasy into another fantasy. And I think that might be confusing, but it's a great idea. 00:51:56.820 --> 00:52:02.940 Yeah, it would have, it might have, you know, just like changing actors for Hartnell. 00:52:03.580 --> 00:52:07.660 This would be their way to move all the animation into 3D from this point forward. 00:52:08.000 --> 00:52:11.020 It's like just sort of a transition. 00:52:11.100 --> 00:52:17.000 I mean, I don't dislike the 3D animation because there are various episodes kind of dabbled, 00:52:17.240 --> 00:52:24.220 various other animations have dabbled with kind of more 3D than 2D or mixed 3D and 2D. 00:52:24.560 --> 00:52:28.680 I mean, you know, thinking about the power of the Daleks, for example, it had been very 2D before that. 00:52:29.340 --> 00:52:34.940 I still kind of feel like the invasions is the best animation. 00:52:35.750 --> 00:52:37.200 Very, very 2D. 00:52:38.800 --> 00:52:45.420 About 18 years of animation technology advancement since then. 00:52:46.060 --> 00:52:50.500 But, you know, still the best because I think a lot of it comes down to the art style. 00:52:50.840 --> 00:52:55.960 I'm not ruling out the 3D because I liked the Web of Fear. 00:52:56.620 --> 00:53:00.180 I agree it did look good with this, but I think there were, 00:53:00.900 --> 00:53:03.320 well, I think you're saying the artwork was problematic. 00:53:04.440 --> 00:53:10.080 The change I disliked with this was the art style from the Web of Fear, 00:53:10.100 --> 00:53:13.260 but also a lot of the BBC Studios animations. 00:53:14.400 --> 00:53:17.060 So, you know, maybe not Power of the Daleks, 00:53:17.260 --> 00:53:20.960 but certainly Macro Terror, certainly Faceless Wands, 00:53:21.400 --> 00:53:23.040 even as a Dalek, that kind of run, 00:53:23.820 --> 00:53:26.300 they were winning me over to watching them in colour 00:53:27.640 --> 00:53:31.200 because I'd been kind of, I guess it's the mindset of, 00:53:31.300 --> 00:53:32.520 well, this was originally black and white. 00:53:32.680 --> 00:53:34.120 Let's watch something that's close to the original, 00:53:34.320 --> 00:53:37.960 despite me sort of going a bit gung-ho with my, 00:53:38.400 --> 00:53:41.120 go on BF, get your anime, 00:53:42.700 --> 00:53:46.400 kind of test the limits of the world you're creating. 00:53:47.100 --> 00:53:58.580 I thought the reason I was kind of enjoying those in colour was because the artwork and the colour hues and the choices and the depth that added to it. 00:53:59.120 --> 00:54:03.700 I was even going to the lengths of saying, oh, yeah, you know, all right, let's have this in widescreen. 00:54:03.770 --> 00:54:05.700 It's not, it wasn't originally in widescreen. 00:54:05.940 --> 00:54:06.120 All right. 00:54:06.400 --> 00:54:07.820 But, you know, it's a different thing. 00:54:08.400 --> 00:54:09.560 Colour widescreen is fair enough. 00:54:09.960 --> 00:54:15.080 And this is presented in colour widescreen and black and white Academy ratio. 00:54:15.920 --> 00:54:21.660 And the black and white, for those who are following these things, is what is supplied on disc one. 00:54:21.820 --> 00:54:27.220 So I think that's their kind of, this is the recommended version. 00:54:28.299 --> 00:54:34.040 The colour version is kind of horrible, I think. 00:54:34.400 --> 00:54:38.420 I dislike the kind of technicalness of it. 00:54:38.980 --> 00:54:41.080 It's too bright. It's garish almost. 00:54:41.880 --> 00:54:44.800 I guess you're going to say that's part of the fantasy universe. 00:54:45.140 --> 00:54:51.760 i think it was probably was probably was fairly garish on screen too based on the this is the 00:54:51.930 --> 00:54:57.640 only time i have ever it was black and white on screen uh okay in the studio this is the only 00:54:57.800 --> 00:55:05.560 time the studio is colored time or black and white film the the extra that's the uh photos 00:55:06.360 --> 00:55:11.800 and in this one when the photo one came up and i go actually considering what they've done 00:55:12.440 --> 00:55:18.640 with with recreating this bizarre thing i really want to see as much as i can of the behind the 00:55:18.780 --> 00:55:25.820 scenes shots and you know things like like the turns out the trilogic game was blue no white 00:55:26.780 --> 00:55:32.220 they did it in white here for the animation to match the room that it was in but it was apparently 00:55:32.270 --> 00:55:39.320 it was a blue prop um there you know the clowns are in color the there is there is color in the 00:55:39.340 --> 00:55:45.140 set so you know and you know the school boy outfits got a certain style and color it would 00:55:45.140 --> 00:55:52.920 have been so they they've these are not unrealistic they're a bit bright perhaps but they're not i i 00:55:52.920 --> 00:55:57.780 don't look at it and go now that should be black and white because the cheap because the studio 00:55:58.080 --> 00:56:05.220 limited day we're black and white so it's black and white um but yeah again and and that's that's 00:56:05.240 --> 00:56:10.160 because of this fantasy well yeah there's not the reason i'm preferring the black and white here it's 00:56:10.260 --> 00:56:15.020 because i think the color is hideous so i prefer it in black and white because i think the black 00:56:15.020 --> 00:56:20.460 and white looks better but there is an exception to that which is that i think if you look at the 00:56:20.620 --> 00:56:27.580 faces the drawings have been done with the intention of them being seen in color and they 00:56:27.820 --> 00:56:34.400 don't quite look right in black and white it's like the lighting is wrong there's something about 00:56:34.420 --> 00:56:39.860 the faces that just seems worse in black and white so there isn't a there isn't a perfect 00:56:40.200 --> 00:56:45.960 recommendation for which version to watch this there's no evidence of this and as far as i can 00:56:46.040 --> 00:56:53.140 tell in the in the making of the animation but i can't help thinking again back to that painting 00:56:53.800 --> 00:56:58.299 design this was intended to be in color it doesn't matter what they put on disc one 00:56:58.920 --> 00:57:05.320 the animators animated color you know and i'm just i'm pushing my prejudice i i think they 00:57:05.760 --> 00:57:10.780 say i mean i think the power of the daleks was the last one that was animated for black and white i 00:57:10.840 --> 00:57:16.420 think since then they've all been done for color and then made black and white here's here's my 00:57:16.500 --> 00:57:20.300 thing about black and white and i know you know there's the whole debate about colorizing films 00:57:20.480 --> 00:57:26.300 and i in in general i'm not in favor of colorizing films it doesn't bother me to watch a film in 00:57:26.300 --> 00:57:32.300 black and white in any way shape and form but black and white was a budgetary restriction 00:57:33.180 --> 00:57:38.320 for a lot of the time when films but you you had to go your budget had to go way up to get 00:57:39.820 --> 00:57:46.320 and it you can go about it two different ways you can shoot it in black and white because black and 00:57:46.380 --> 00:57:51.599 white's what i've got or you can be the type cinematographer and director that look at it and 00:57:51.600 --> 00:57:59.820 say, I am painting a picture in black and white. And so you make it unrealistic for the color world 00:58:00.500 --> 00:58:05.500 to create the look. And there are a lot of black and white films out there that have done that. 00:58:06.140 --> 00:58:12.440 And they are, I can truly say that they are made for black and white in an artistic way. And, 00:58:13.060 --> 00:58:16.760 and they can look great in black and white, but there's an awful lot of black and white films 00:58:16.780 --> 00:58:23.480 that are just shot in black and white pedestrianly because that's what they had to work with. 00:58:23.550 --> 00:58:25.800 And I think Doctor Who was generally pedestrian. 00:58:27.040 --> 00:58:29.520 Pedestrian lighting, pedestrian directing. 00:58:30.220 --> 00:58:33.100 And that was Doctor Who for the most part. 00:58:33.580 --> 00:58:36.100 The reality is if you're making black and white television, 00:58:36.900 --> 00:58:42.480 the colors that you choose as a costume designer, as an art designer, 00:58:42.580 --> 00:58:48.980 when you're lighting it all the rest is based on that you know this is going to be in black and 00:58:49.120 --> 00:58:54.800 white so if you could restore the color from black and white it would not look right and even those 00:58:54.880 --> 00:58:59.680 publicity photos taken on the set will reflect the fact that they were creating sets that were 00:58:59.900 --> 00:59:07.180 intended to be shot in black and white i i saw an interview with raymond burr who was a star of 00:59:07.600 --> 00:59:15.460 perry mason shot in film in hollywood in the in the 60s and he one of the things he said was you 00:59:15.460 --> 00:59:21.960 know because we shoot in black and white our makeup is green dude we wear green makeup there's a green 00:59:22.080 --> 00:59:28.020 tip to our faces because he gives a more realistic look on in black and white on on the tv and his 00:59:28.020 --> 00:59:32.920 his comment was you know it's pretty tough when you walk into your scene is to say what dela you 00:59:32.960 --> 00:59:39.920 lovely tonight when she looks green and uh so you know yes okay if you were able to magically go 00:59:40.120 --> 00:59:44.920 back to that film and somebody came up with a process that could exactly recreate the original 00:59:45.060 --> 00:59:52.480 color with absolute brilliant green they're close i think they can on video but not not necessarily 00:59:52.560 --> 00:59:58.920 in film but who knows but they would be green i mean probably not like a ryan slave girl green 00:59:59.360 --> 01:00:06.260 but they would be uh you know they were bulk and green yeah like i was 20 before i realized spock 01:00:06.400 --> 01:00:12.040 was actually not the same color as everyone else in the on the enterprise so it's like oh he just 01:00:12.160 --> 01:00:17.480 kind of i just thought he was just didn't have a suntan kind of thing but yeah they've they've 01:00:17.520 --> 01:00:22.320 done something to their faces to make it so there are lots of things you can do that the the use of 01:00:22.420 --> 01:00:27.980 dark and light can be much more contrasty on black and white and for that noir effect and 01:00:28.000 --> 01:00:33.960 yeah no i'm not saying it isn't but doctor who does not strike me as very often as something 01:00:34.060 --> 01:00:40.700 that was anything other than just point the camera throw a lot of light at it and let's get 01:00:40.700 --> 01:00:47.080 this done with and so um i don't know why they would try to artistically make it black and white 01:00:47.560 --> 01:00:53.580 in the future in the now in the now yeah but i think i think that's yeah that's fair enough 01:00:53.920 --> 01:01:01.080 color would be color would be good if it was good which is no you know and i watched there's uh 01:01:01.320 --> 01:01:06.260 there's commentary on the on the episodes uh some of the episodes have commentary from peter purvis 01:01:06.620 --> 01:01:12.820 and played steven and uh i was particularly interested in listening to him looking at himself 01:01:13.460 --> 01:01:20.280 and seeing what his opinion because i would if if they were not wearing those ridiculously iconic 01:01:20.560 --> 01:01:25.760 outfits i mean if you think of steven and dodo yeah you can't blame the animators for that but 01:01:25.760 --> 01:01:30.880 if you think of steven and dodo those are kind of the costumes that pop to mind because they are so 01:01:31.480 --> 01:01:37.520 awful um but but you know it is what it is but it's there's there's a there's a bunch of color 01:01:37.700 --> 01:01:43.040 pictures of those two that circulate around and of course the mystique of the toy maker and 01:01:43.420 --> 01:01:48.920 whatnot so you see a lot of those pictures but if it weren't for those costumes and somebody said 01:01:48.940 --> 01:01:57.660 pointed those to me and said which doctor companions of those i'd go i ian and zoe i don't 01:01:57.660 --> 01:02:04.160 know i don't recall anybody who had a nose that big honking big and hooked over and i haven't had 01:02:04.260 --> 01:02:08.980 chance to go back and look at peter purvis's nose in profile to see if it's that awful but 01:02:10.900 --> 01:02:18.360 sorry ian uh steven uh no ian you know ian from earlier doctor who oh in test in barbara 01:02:18.620 --> 01:02:24.500 ian yeah i mean he's just he's just a square-jawed guy with dark hair i mean that doesn't look okay 01:02:24.780 --> 01:02:29.540 more like peter purvis than it does look like ian chess or why would he even be with russell 01:02:30.080 --> 01:02:35.880 he would well no i said if you showed me those pictures just their face separately right separately 01:02:36.340 --> 01:02:42.420 and i got identify this one i go that could be zoe i don't know uh dark haired short short dark 01:02:42.440 --> 01:02:51.780 care uh and i wouldn't think of dodo because nobody thinks of dodo um but sorry dodo i couldn't 01:02:51.960 --> 01:02:59.900 identify their faces and i look at them and my thought my first thought was wow they look dour 01:03:00.420 --> 01:03:06.240 all the time that they they there is with the exception of the scene where they're supposed 01:03:06.380 --> 01:03:13.080 be laughing they looked our those are just two grumpy face people and that is almost the first 01:03:13.200 --> 01:03:20.340 thing that purvis said watching that and i think the expressions are a little sterner than uh 01:03:20.890 --> 01:03:25.700 uh perhaps but he was generally complimentary of the whole thing i i didn't think he was going to 01:03:25.700 --> 01:03:30.360 be busting on it because that would probably they'd probably make him do the commentary again 01:03:30.860 --> 01:03:38.580 but or they just use it yeah maybe they did so his comments were basically in line with ours is 01:03:38.640 --> 01:03:41.960 that you know he's glad that they went and they they went big because they couldn't do it in the 01:03:42.060 --> 01:03:46.440 studio in it and it's great to have it back and he's never seen the celestial toy maker 01:03:47.270 --> 01:03:54.040 except for episode four because he didn't watch them when they went out so um but yeah the you 01:03:54.040 --> 01:03:59.260 know the faces they were like he he said he could identify them i'm thinking that might be pushing 01:03:59.280 --> 01:04:03.840 a little bit but he commented on that and the fact that they were they were kind of sternish 01:04:04.600 --> 01:04:10.860 looking um let's see what else do i have if anything i don't know did you notice what the 01:04:10.860 --> 01:04:18.580 hood ornament was on the uh the car that the clown and dodo were in nope it was the toy maker 01:04:19.160 --> 01:04:26.900 a gold toy maker standing there with his hands out and back like um is it a ben's that has that 01:04:27.420 --> 01:04:34.680 or is it a no uh roller rolls there it is like a rolls it's a gold toy maker doing that on the 01:04:34.730 --> 01:04:40.900 front of the oh it's just a nice touch um i didn't see that till i was watching through it on the 01:04:41.010 --> 01:04:48.240 second time uh the last touch so i mean this this relates to one of my biggest gripes with the 01:04:48.440 --> 01:04:54.340 anime i mean this so the these are this not kind of global issue with the animation these are the 01:04:54.240 --> 01:05:01.260 particular things where we've talked we've talked about how kind of they use the freedom that 01:05:01.420 --> 01:05:07.400 animation gives you to do some kind of quite cool things and interestingly since the recon 01:05:07.980 --> 01:05:13.320 actually includes animation to it is also 3d animation for certain sequences and they are 01:05:13.800 --> 01:05:20.080 the the sequences where steven is playing against the clowns but they're they're animated without 01:05:20.100 --> 01:05:26.160 that expansiveness without the the kind of twisted physics and everything and so you can i mean 01:05:26.340 --> 01:05:32.360 obviously i don't know the the kind of prominence of those recons i i'm sure they don't have the 01:05:32.380 --> 01:05:38.120 same resource but it certainly not only is that the animation in the fully animated version better 01:05:38.260 --> 01:05:44.340 but that those artistic choices improve it i i wondered if so there's one area where i think 01:05:44.340 --> 01:05:49.460 they could have gone further and there's one area where i think they went too far one area as an 01:05:49.380 --> 01:05:53.340 example where i think they could have gone further is those playing cards the playing cards those 01:05:53.350 --> 01:06:01.480 are weird a bit like the clown look non-human the playing cards look non-human they look sort of 01:06:01.600 --> 01:06:06.860 playing cardish but they could have been actual playing cards more or less because it's animation 01:06:07.500 --> 01:06:13.740 what's to stop you so i didn't know why they didn't go further with that they also strobed 01:06:14.360 --> 01:06:20.160 their movements strobed yeah like they were phasing in and out of reality choice yeah so 01:06:20.160 --> 01:06:27.940 that was pretty weird on the other hand the car that you just mentioned i found having having a 01:06:28.100 --> 01:06:33.420 car was very confusing like the sound effect sounds like the car horn but it's not meant to 01:06:33.420 --> 01:06:40.660 be the car horn it's it seems much more straightforward to have a booth that they're in 01:06:40.600 --> 01:06:43.360 Okay, if you want to move it around, you can move it around. 01:06:43.780 --> 01:06:50.220 But making it look like a car, to me, is more distracting than adding anything. 01:06:50.700 --> 01:06:51.820 Yeah, okay. 01:06:52.700 --> 01:06:53.860 Was it a booth in the recons? 01:06:54.460 --> 01:06:54.700 Yes. 01:06:54.880 --> 01:07:01.240 I mean, at that point, I think the recons are just the telesnaps or publicity snaps or whatever they had. 01:07:01.920 --> 01:07:08.660 But to me, it looked like, you know, a fish tank or a very simple telephone box. 01:07:08.760 --> 01:07:14.120 It was nothing like a sort of toy car scooting around all over the place. 01:07:14.600 --> 01:07:15.560 In three dimensions, yeah. 01:07:16.740 --> 01:07:21.420 It was there in order to isolate the two of them, 01:07:22.020 --> 01:07:26.740 the Dodo and the female clown, from Stephen 01:07:26.940 --> 01:07:30.680 so that it would be obvious that they could not hear each other 01:07:31.280 --> 01:07:33.920 and the only way they could communicate would be by tooting the tutor. 01:07:34.580 --> 01:07:37.400 But with the car, it didn't seem to me that obvious 01:07:37.420 --> 01:07:44.140 that they were sonically isolated and it felt like every time there was a toot it was the horn 01:07:44.140 --> 01:07:50.260 of the car so i just felt that whatever that was the horn of the car though wasn't it i mean she 01:07:50.290 --> 01:07:57.620 was pushing the was though because there wasn't a car you know oh in the original yeah well but 01:07:57.650 --> 01:08:04.340 in the 3d animation she is hogging the horn on the steering wheel isn't she well the button may be in 01:08:04.320 --> 01:08:08.680 place of the horn on the car so yeah it's kind of like that but then that feels like it's there for 01:08:08.680 --> 01:08:13.360 the purpose of being a horn on the car not for the purpose of being a means of communicating with 01:08:13.520 --> 01:08:19.620 steven as part of the game so it detracted it distracted from what the game was about more than 01:08:19.660 --> 01:08:26.279 it added in terms of visual amusement i guess here's where i'm gonna i didn't like any of those 01:08:26.400 --> 01:08:30.940 sequences so i mean but that's because i don't like what they're doing i mean i'm not talking 01:08:30.960 --> 01:08:35.779 about the animation i'm just like okay this is just this is just dull um this is just filler 01:08:36.359 --> 01:08:43.460 is what it it it feels like i think that the obstacle course even when they converted it 01:08:43.460 --> 01:08:53.900 to three dimensions is still probably really visually dull and so they put dodo in the car 01:08:54.080 --> 01:09:01.540 and ran her around so that they would have an excuse to move the camera uh have some motion 01:09:01.759 --> 01:09:09.720 on the screen uh look like something was happening uh just to make it more animated it it feels like 01:09:09.779 --> 01:09:16.660 they're just trying to cover up they're trying to patch over a bad story yeah so it it didn't 01:09:16.740 --> 01:09:22.339 bother me because it was this i guess it in a way it is distracting but the whole thing is like i 01:09:22.259 --> 01:09:30.040 distract me from the game i don't care so just like he he's and you know i'm not it doesn't 01:09:31.020 --> 01:09:38.580 really the the directional system that they have isn't very good right when dodo says turn left 01:09:38.900 --> 01:09:45.779 steven turns does he turn left 90 degrees does he turn left 100 degrees because he doesn't really 01:09:45.859 --> 01:09:52.900 seem to be doing this like what dodo tells him to do and the way they've got it animated in the 01:09:53.000 --> 01:09:58.700 real one maybe he did i would if i were in that situation and i was someone was giving me 01:09:58.960 --> 01:10:07.360 instructions with you know with the beeps like that i would be very very precise in my motions 01:10:08.220 --> 01:10:13.861 i would be absolutely dead still if they say turn right i'm going to do absolutely everything i can 01:10:14.120 --> 01:10:21.660 to turn exactly 90 degrees to the right without moving on my spot and then gingerly stepping 01:10:22.070 --> 01:10:28.180 forward when they tell me to step forward i i would be very um precise about it because all 01:10:28.320 --> 01:10:34.100 i've got is very low quality data coming from dodo not saying dodo's wrong just you know it's 01:10:34.220 --> 01:10:40.140 it's low bit rate and that's not what steven's doing steven's just all kind of waving around 01:10:40.160 --> 01:10:58.080 Yeah, but also I think having the car dashing around all the time, also it creates that kind of sense of frenetic activity rather than what you should have, which is Dodo concentrating on exactly where Stephen is stepping and Stephen concentrating on exactly what Dodo is tooting. 01:10:58.420 --> 01:11:05.960 Now, they do kind of give the illusion, and I don't know what the dialogue was, or maybe it was just a scream or something. 01:11:06.500 --> 01:11:07.360 I don't know why. 01:11:08.180 --> 01:11:12.920 There is one point when the car zips around really quickly, and I think Dodo screams. 01:11:15.100 --> 01:11:23.300 And we could make the argument that they've put the car movements around as an effort to throw Dodo off. 01:11:23.620 --> 01:11:24.180 Oh, yes. 01:11:24.380 --> 01:11:25.620 I think that is the... 01:11:25.800 --> 01:11:27.360 I don't know how they would have done that in the mood. 01:11:27.880 --> 01:11:41.840 Well, I don't say that. I think that's an addition to the story. Like I say, I don't have a problem with the idea that you add things to the story or you change the nature of the story because you are looking at a different production. 01:11:42.200 --> 01:11:58.120 It's just that I think the way they've done this particular aspect of it is actually unhelpful to understanding what's going on in the story, even the kind of alternative version of the story that they are now telling. 01:12:00.560 --> 01:12:05.460 Let's see. I just have a few catch up items here that are in no logical order that we haven't hit. 01:12:05.830 --> 01:12:09.140 How does jumping ahead in the Trilogic game work? 01:12:10.420 --> 01:12:19.920 Is it my understanding that a perfect game of Trilogic is exactly 1,023 moves, and the 01:12:20.160 --> 01:12:24.400 doctor must make a perfect game in 1,023 moves? 01:12:25.000 --> 01:12:29.600 If he makes any mistake or misstep, he will not get there in 1,023 moves, and he will 01:12:29.740 --> 01:12:29.920 lose. 01:12:30.580 --> 01:12:33.320 That's kind of how I think it is, because it's just Towers of Hanoi. 01:12:33.680 --> 01:12:34.240 Hanoi here. 01:12:34.960 --> 01:12:35.360 Hanoi. 01:12:35.720 --> 01:12:36.100 Hanoi. 01:12:37.260 --> 01:12:37.660 Hanoi. 01:12:37.780 --> 01:12:38.480 Towers of Hanoi. 01:12:38.500 --> 01:12:39.020 Maybe that's it. 01:12:39.060 --> 01:12:39.280 Hanoi. 01:12:39.320 --> 01:12:39.760 I should do. 01:12:39.920 --> 01:12:46.180 yeah it's it's hunnily so the doctor is making a bunch of moves and then the toy maker says okay 01:12:46.300 --> 01:12:55.400 gotta move 738 and the thing zips around and uh does that mean that it makes perfect moves 01:12:56.240 --> 01:13:00.880 when it's skipping forward it doesn't seem to me it doesn't seem to me a terribly 01:13:01.680 --> 01:13:08.381 i mean it's a little bit like penalty shootout in a football match it's it too often seems like 01:13:08.400 --> 01:13:13.740 in a penalty shootout that you lose the game 01:13:13.970 --> 01:13:14.720 rather than winning it 01:13:14.920 --> 01:13:16.600 because it's as soon as you miss a penalty 01:13:16.940 --> 01:13:17.740 that there is a problem. 01:13:18.360 --> 01:13:20.380 It's not necessarily exactly like that. 01:13:20.410 --> 01:13:22.420 I'm not as ignorant as the rules of football 01:13:23.380 --> 01:13:24.960 as that makes me sound, 01:13:25.140 --> 01:13:27.020 but I only do cricket. 01:13:27.260 --> 01:13:29.040 I'm pretty ignorant as the rules of football, 01:13:29.260 --> 01:13:29.920 but I did that. 01:13:30.640 --> 01:13:33.020 I do know that depending on where you are 01:13:33.020 --> 01:13:34.180 in the penalty shootout, 01:13:34.380 --> 01:13:35.800 yeah, the other side could still miss. 01:13:36.480 --> 01:13:38.360 That, of course, makes it even worse 01:13:38.380 --> 01:13:42.440 as a kind of dramatic element to this storyline, 01:13:42.740 --> 01:13:45.660 because it's not like the Toymaker is playing too. 01:13:45.840 --> 01:13:47.740 It's not like they're playing against each other 01:13:47.920 --> 01:13:50.200 and when one of them makes a mistake, you know, 01:13:50.280 --> 01:13:52.200 and they should be up against the same kind of pressures. 01:13:52.880 --> 01:13:58.220 And actually, the problem with the setup is that the Doctor has to complete this, 01:13:58.920 --> 01:14:00.920 but he has to complete it perfectly, 01:14:02.040 --> 01:14:06.000 and Dodo and Stephen have to do their bit before he completes it. 01:14:06.560 --> 01:14:10.600 That creates, rather than there being competing factors for the Doctor, 01:14:11.420 --> 01:14:15.720 that creates two reasons why the Doctor should just go as slow as he could. 01:14:16.340 --> 01:14:20.740 Because he can think through every move in great detail the longer he takes to think about it. 01:14:21.380 --> 01:14:25.480 Not only is he going to have a better chance of getting it right and not making that fatal mistake, 01:14:25.980 --> 01:14:30.440 but also he's giving Stephen and Dodo a longer time to complete their bit. 01:14:30.940 --> 01:14:35.640 That seems to me the reason why they have to have this, or the Toymaker has to have this, 01:14:36.280 --> 01:14:37.240 you're going too slowly. 01:14:37.440 --> 01:14:39.480 I'm going to move you through so many moves. 01:14:40.200 --> 01:14:41.920 But again, it's not clear to me 01:14:42.590 --> 01:14:44.280 whether or not that is to the doctor's advantage 01:14:44.430 --> 01:14:46.760 because when he moves him through however many moves, 01:14:47.540 --> 01:14:48.520 he can't make a mistake. 01:14:48.520 --> 01:14:49.420 He gets all those moves correct. 01:14:50.000 --> 01:14:51.220 Yeah, the doctor can't make a mistake. 01:14:51.560 --> 01:14:53.880 So maybe he should just hang around and hang around 01:14:54.720 --> 01:14:57.860 until the toymaker gets so bored that he moves it on. 01:14:58.500 --> 01:14:58.580 Yeah. 01:14:58.850 --> 01:15:01.860 You know, it makes it very difficult to work out 01:15:02.340 --> 01:15:04.480 what the doctor's strategy should be, 01:15:04.620 --> 01:15:05.580 let alone what it is. 01:15:06.260 --> 01:15:14.340 With regards to the story, again, Stephen and Dodo aren't the most well-represented companions in the remaining. 01:15:15.120 --> 01:15:20.560 But Stephen has absolutely no sympathy for these creatures. 01:15:21.500 --> 01:15:26.080 And Dodo has way too much in this episode. 01:15:26.840 --> 01:15:32.660 It just, it feels like they've created an artificial polarization in the two of them. 01:15:33.240 --> 01:15:38.140 for and you know would it be different if we were absolutely certain that these are real people who 01:15:38.140 --> 01:15:42.880 had been condemned there because of course they're all killed at the end when the toy room is destroyed 01:15:43.540 --> 01:15:50.300 uh when the doctor and and crew disappear in the tardis and destroy the toy room um i don't know 01:15:50.620 --> 01:15:56.920 it it just or i mean i feel like something's still before the end yes he is and when and when when 01:15:57.000 --> 01:16:03.200 you kind of say that the the darkness of the original hail script was kind of excised through 01:16:03.220 --> 01:16:10.220 changes that were made i still think that's pretty horrific the the animation is even more horrific 01:16:10.540 --> 01:16:16.760 i think because you sort of see all his skin has blistered red which is dreadful but you know even 01:16:17.540 --> 01:16:25.360 because that occurs in the surviving episode even the original on film version is pretty awful i i 01:16:25.640 --> 01:16:31.440 um this is another one where you know typically speaking when we come to these animations i watch 01:16:31.400 --> 01:16:39.860 the color one oh and then i'm done uh and uh i actually watched the surviving episode first 01:16:40.400 --> 01:16:45.060 i watched the surviving i watched the first three color episodes uh and then i watched the surviving 01:16:45.220 --> 01:16:50.720 episode and then i went and watched the third color episode because you know i have no clue 01:16:50.720 --> 01:16:56.740 what they're missing in the first three episodes and and i should point out they they also point 01:16:56.760 --> 01:17:02.400 out that the surviving photos like that's in that photo gallery are not behind the scene shots 01:17:02.780 --> 01:17:09.320 they're publicity shots so there's a lot of those pictures are not of things that actually happen 01:17:09.520 --> 01:17:15.940 in the episode they are staged for the purposes of putting in magazines or whatever it happens to be 01:17:16.520 --> 01:17:22.740 so what you can get from them is is the colors of the costumes and the look and maybe the sets 01:17:23.020 --> 01:17:30.760 but you don't you can't draw anything from those that help the animation you know going on with 01:17:30.920 --> 01:17:35.860 what uh was happening yeah so i wanted to i wanted to see having watched the three episodes 01:17:35.930 --> 01:17:41.520 and thought wow this is amazing expansive world that's really twisted and bizarre how bad does 01:17:41.520 --> 01:17:47.500 it look in a studio and then you cut to the studio episode you go yeah it's bad it's pretty bad uh 01:17:47.860 --> 01:17:52.880 it's pretty bad and i wonder how wild they're gonna take it and then i watch the color episode 01:17:52.990 --> 01:18:00.520 and it's like all right yeah yeah it's not nearly as kind of freaky weird as the the clown sequence 01:18:00.900 --> 01:18:07.740 or the the toy maker expanding large and vomiting cards out of his mouth and his twirly pattern or 01:18:08.040 --> 01:18:14.380 all of those uh strange strange things going on there but that's all right it's definitely better 01:18:14.740 --> 01:18:21.080 the animation is definitely better i'd still rather have the original yes but but uh i'll i 01:18:21.220 --> 01:18:27.140 will i will accept this as they've really taken a terrible episode and they've done about as good as 01:18:27.140 --> 01:18:34.280 they could uh as they in remaking this one go out and buy it show the bbc that we want more of these 01:18:34.940 --> 01:18:40.580 i think that's their usual appeal i well it is it is and so um because we have reached a point 01:18:40.600 --> 01:18:46.660 once again where there are no future animations announced i'm going to ask you the standard 01:18:46.900 --> 01:18:51.820 question of do you think there will be more i think it's going to depend on whether doctor 01:18:51.920 --> 01:19:02.580 who survives next year or not um um i'm not 100 convinced it will but uh uh i i i don't know i i 01:19:03.120 --> 01:19:07.340 i believe that with russell t davies of all the things that i can say good bad or indifferent 01:19:07.340 --> 01:19:13.300 about Russell T Davies I would be willing to bet that he is in the background pushing for it oh yeah 01:19:13.460 --> 01:19:18.880 I'm sure he always has been um and I think he's probably got some clout to accomplish that now 01:19:18.980 --> 01:19:25.860 whether or not they're going to turn that over to Disney too um suddenly I'm seeing Bambi style 01:19:26.240 --> 01:19:35.781 animation I don't I mean I we obviously had that um that big gap we've had two big gaps now we had 01:19:35.800 --> 01:19:42.700 the big gap after was it the moon base before power of the daleks came along and then the 01:19:43.540 --> 01:19:48.120 abominable snowman was going to be the last one before the underwater menace has come along and 01:19:48.120 --> 01:19:53.740 then we've had the celestial toymaker hot on its heels so it seems odd that we're just having two 01:19:54.400 --> 01:20:01.440 but even if even if we are those those long gaps or those long gaps that felt like long gaps at the 01:20:01.380 --> 01:20:07.040 time were never more than sort of i know a couple of years two and a half years i get between the 01:20:07.040 --> 01:20:11.800 moon base when you're getting old almost almost three years between the moon base and power of 01:20:11.800 --> 01:20:19.200 the darlings i i'm gonna i'm gonna say i think we'll get another one within a year i think you're 01:20:19.320 --> 01:20:25.781 probably right and i think it cannot be a coincidence that it's the celestial toy maker 01:20:26.380 --> 01:20:35.660 no and the giggle so we have to ask ourselves does series 2025 of doctor who contain any 01:20:35.900 --> 01:20:43.340 callbacks to any missing episodes and if it does that's what we're gonna get well i i wouldn't be 01:20:43.480 --> 01:20:52.520 surprised because rtd has gone full you know rtd1 he went he you know there was that moment when the 01:20:52.880 --> 01:20:59.360 Macra appeared in gridlock and that was like oh my god he's he's he's actually acknowledging the 01:20:59.520 --> 01:21:05.500 show existed before 2005 I mean not that he wasn't but it was very much it was it was there 01:21:05.720 --> 01:21:14.140 for you to spot as the as the kind of dedicated fan whereas now it's like and we're going to do 01:21:14.420 --> 01:21:18.921 we're going to info dump this aspect of the old show and we're now going to info dump that aspect 01:21:18.940 --> 01:21:24.260 of the old show and we're now going to have a big reveal that is only going to mean anything to 01:21:24.350 --> 01:21:32.260 people who have watched the show for 49 years and i think that he that's just that's what he's doing 01:21:32.420 --> 01:21:37.380 now so yeah answers are we are like we did with the toy maker we are going to get more stuff 01:21:38.060 --> 01:21:45.059 that he he is excited about and which has its mystique because it's from lost episodes and he 01:21:45.000 --> 01:21:52.720 wants to you know not only bring back and expand those elements but also to to yeah push for the 01:21:53.300 --> 01:21:59.700 push for interest in in the originals he has he has though uh without going into the spoiler 01:22:00.340 --> 01:22:08.060 not everything that he has brought back in rtd2 era is from a lost episode no no no so i mean 01:22:08.280 --> 01:22:14.219 you know absolutely i'm no i wasn't suggesting that he was purely motivated by digging out the 01:22:14.180 --> 01:22:17.700 the lost episodes i think most of what he's brought back hasn't had anything to do with 01:22:17.800 --> 01:22:24.960 lost episodes but i think the appeal of something like the toy maker is that it gives him the 01:22:25.200 --> 01:22:33.660 opportunity to do something with a fairly sort of legendary character in a legendary story i mean 01:22:33.740 --> 01:22:39.401 it's well known even if it's not great yeah that no one else has done anything with on television 01:22:39.420 --> 01:22:40.780 in the intervening time. 01:22:41.200 --> 01:22:42.240 I know what it's going to be. 01:22:42.920 --> 01:22:43.180 Go on then. 01:22:43.800 --> 01:22:46.040 Next season, because he's still alive, 01:22:46.660 --> 01:22:49.020 Frasier Hines is coming back somehow. 01:22:49.840 --> 01:22:50.680 He'll, I don't know, 01:22:50.800 --> 01:22:52.620 Unit will have picked him up somehow by accident 01:22:52.770 --> 01:22:53.860 through their time experiments. 01:22:55.680 --> 01:22:58.740 And then we'll have to have the Highlanders 01:22:59.760 --> 01:23:01.620 animated to introduce the character. 01:23:02.380 --> 01:23:05.160 See, there are two, you've got my vote there. 01:23:05.460 --> 01:23:06.540 There are two reasons for that. 01:23:06.960 --> 01:23:08.660 Firstly, I love Jamie, 01:23:08.960 --> 01:23:10.360 So bring back Jamie. 01:23:11.280 --> 01:23:13.360 And secondly, because I love Jamie, 01:23:13.600 --> 01:23:15.940 I would really like to see his introduction story. 01:23:16.640 --> 01:23:18.320 And we know it's a tough one to animate. 01:23:18.760 --> 01:23:22.100 So if this gives them a reason to do the difficult thing, 01:23:22.840 --> 01:23:23.200 bring it on. 01:23:23.780 --> 01:23:23.940 Yeah. 01:23:24.520 --> 01:23:24.640 So. 01:23:25.230 --> 01:23:27.400 Do you have anything else about this episode? 01:23:28.060 --> 01:23:29.400 I think that's it for me. 01:23:29.920 --> 01:23:31.260 I think we've killed this one. 01:23:31.620 --> 01:23:34.980 I think we've recorded as long as the episode is. 01:23:36.560 --> 01:23:37.840 I'll try to cut some out somewhere. 01:23:39.080 --> 01:23:47.800 Well, we will definitely next week be, from where you're hearing this, next week we will definitely be talking about the two-part finale of Doctor Who 2024. 01:23:50.020 --> 01:23:52.560 So, Simon, thank you for joining me. 01:23:53.160 --> 01:23:54.000 It's a pleasure, as always. 01:23:54.760 --> 01:23:57.720 Listeners, go out and buy the Celestial Toymaker on Blu-ray. 01:23:58.280 --> 01:24:02.240 And we hope you'll join us all again next time on Fusion Patrol. 01:24:04.640 --> 01:24:06.800 You've been listening to Fusion Patrol. 01:24:07.380 --> 01:24:08.080 Thanks for listening. 01:24:10.400 --> 01:24:13.480 If you've enjoyed this episode, we hope you'll consider supporting us at 01:24:13.820 --> 01:24:18.600 buymeacoffee.com slash Fusion Patrol or patreon.com slash Fusion Patrol. 01:24:19.460 --> 01:24:24.960 For our monthly Patreon subscribers, we're currently running a special series on Babylon 5. 01:24:27.040 --> 01:24:31.480 Come join the conversation and find other content at fusionpatrol.com. 01:24:32.000 --> 01:24:37.140 And we're back on social media, where you can also follow us on Mastodon and the Fediverse. 01:24:37.920 --> 01:24:41.720 Our address is at podcast at fusion patrol dot com. 01:24:44.300 --> 01:24:47.140 Our music is Fight the Future by Amber Wolf. 01:24:49.800 --> 01:24:52.140 This has been a Lone Locust production.