WEBVTT

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you're listening to fusion patrol a listener supported podcast

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each week we take a single episode of a science fiction tv series movie or

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audio and overanalyze it to within an inch of its life welcome to the discussion

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hello and welcome to a special episode of future patrol i'm eugene and i'm simon and this is part

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two of our conversation about doctor who the giggle i will say this let's try to go positive

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rtd still writes some fantastic dialogue he he can get the characters when they're talking to

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each other feel like people talking to each other most of the time once in a while it's a little

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heavy-handed but there are a few moments in this episode where the doctor and donna the doctor and

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mel are we're having uh the chats and you're just like yeah rtd can can do things that other writers

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are not so adept at jms and um wow you set the bar low there i there are people

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there who disagree with you very vehemently but there we go i well let me let me just pick up on

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on that then because because i'm not going to disagree with the die i like i like rtd's dialogue

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the kind of the conversations they're entertaining and they they kind of strengthen the character

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rather than feeling like they're being led by the plot but they're being led by something

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in certain cases and that that does not always feel like it's completely earned and that's

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what he what he's doing is is trying to kind of build up to a an emotional crescendo in the

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exchanges i think you see this in a lot of the doctor and donna's dialogue in this so he he is

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he is making the case that the doctor sort of never never stops never takes the time to

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decompress or consider what has happened and hasn't done so since he was William Hartnell

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and I think that those kind of very um charged scenes are one of the things that are RTD's

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strength but I also think he he's so keen to do it something he just goes for it he just goes for

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it without considering whether it it's sort of earned whether it whether it fits and the problem

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with the three episode arc and I think this touches on what I was talking about before is that

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I think you can't do that beyond the three episodes that you're that you're writing unless

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you really delve into what's gone on in the episodes immediately preceding. I think one of

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the kind of weaknesses of this arc, although I can see why they've done it because of the Disney stuff,

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is that it doesn't touch on the reaction that the Doctor may have to those final kind of parting

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parting exchanges with Yaz or indeed everything that has happened with Yaz and in many ways

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that could have fed into why the doctor needs to think about how that how they deal with their

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relationships probably more than just sort of needing a holiday in fact definitely more than

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needing a holiday because for goodness sake the doctor spent a year hanging around with Amy and

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Maury in The Power of Three, and that was only a couple of incarnations back. And there are

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countless other examples where we've had references to the Doctor just spending time in places.

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Thousands of years on a Christmas planet.

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For example. So I think, from almost everything I've said about RTG's writing in the past three

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episodes, everything that is his strength is also his weakness. And I think, yeah, the dialogue is

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good but where it doesn't always work for me is where he goes for this this is the really

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emotionally charged scene but he hasn't done the spade work to feel like it's earned and you feel

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like actually no i feel like i'm being manipulated a bit here whereas sort of as a as a kind of

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palate cleanser i've been watching i need a bit of a moffat fix i've been watching moffat's

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adaptation of the time traveler's wife and you get the scenes where there's where they where

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because he can do he can do the kind of emotionally charged speeches but when he writes them it feels

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like it's genuinely built up to that and uh and in that sense it's it's kind of earned so well

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we did not get an explanation about the clothes and the regeneration and we did not get an explanation

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i do have something to say about the clothes which is was so i wanted an explanation for that

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my worry

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I don't, this is probably

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misfounded but my worry is

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that they decided

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I don't know whether this was Tennant or whether this was Davies

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or whether this was Coddinson or

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someone else, they didn't want

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Tennant

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in women's clothes

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because I can't see why they

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did that regeneration

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scene differently and

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when Chibnall did it, he had

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Sasha Dewan wearing

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her earring and everything

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so it was a kind of break with so not only just like very recently established continuity but

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literally within the episode continuity the other possible explanation is that because of the by

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generation he didn't want the doctor to have to be necessarily in the same costume because he

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couldn't have two doctors in the same costume and what he's done here is a bit of a mishmash

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gatwick gets the tie and the shoes but the shirt and we'll note because tenant's still wearing the

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shirt so they're both wearing the same no he's wearing a different shirt no it looks to me more

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like some sort of a night shirt or something it's a different it's a different type of shirt i mean

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that was an undershirt or i don't know i think it was something different because you guys dress

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differently than we do in arizona where undershirts are frequently way too much right it's like you

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It's like, no, I was thinking about this the other day.

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This is true.

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I don't, I own exactly one long sleeve shirt and have never had more than one in my life at a time.

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And that's only to put on under a suit.

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So, you know, we just, we don't have the same, I don't have the same clothes.

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But I was looking very closely.

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It looks to me like it's a slightly different material, like something more linen-y, but it does still have a, seem to have a collar.

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So, yeah, I think he's there with no underpants.

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I was wondering about the underpants.

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i've got a question mark there i thought the shirt had been duplicated there was only one

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tie and shoes and and gator got both of them and then the trousers and the and the waistcoat

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ten and keeps and i you know there's absolutely no logic or sense to any of that but then

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i'm not going to go back to the by generation and logic and sense but that was it on the clothes

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yeah yeah so we didn't get that and it it's still uh i'll stand with he could have had the scene

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with tenant standing there in whitaker's clothes because that's where the episode ended and the

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next one open and opens with him stepping out into london obviously days later yes time later he could

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have just been wearing clothes he's like he's gone back he did not need a scene with him going and

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doing the clothes like that was that was a ridiculous explanation of why he didn't want to

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do that and i don't i don't just annoy us don't think don't think i yeah but that has to be some

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reason the the the you know i i say i'd have made different decisions when you know some of these

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things get signed off but my what i am correct about is that all of these decisions get poured

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over and examined by multiple separate people so the decision to regenerate tenant into different

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clothes was something that you know would have been thought thought through by the costume

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department and by the director of that episode and obviously by RTD probably not by Chibnall but

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certainly by some producer and all all of them would have I'm sure raised the question

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shouldn't he be wearing her outfit and decided that whatever reason no the the subtitles don't

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know if you watch what the subtitles on i just want to point out that the subtitles on disney

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absolutely say 10th doctor in all the scenes where there are two doctors which i thought oh

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that's interesting okay so are we the toy maker takes is i seem to recall that there was something

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about the Toymakers

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from the original.

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I have read the book,

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but boy, has it been a long time.

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I seem to recall that

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the Toymakers MO

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was when you lost,

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the price he extracted

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was that he turned you

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into a toy of some kind.

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I feel like that was

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part of the horror of it,

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that his toy room

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is populated with toys

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who were people.

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Stooky Bill.

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Stooky Sue.

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Stooky Babies

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People who lost

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Possibly but I

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And if so did Donna murder Stooky Sue

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Well yes she did

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I mean regardless of whether it's a person or not

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That was pretty violent

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My name is Donna and I think you're a goner

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Yep that was a good line too

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Um

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It was nice to see Mel

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But why

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Yeah

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Why Mel

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Oh no well I don't know

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Well okay so

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this wasn't a this wasn't a surprise in fact nothing in this episode was surprised was that

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there was that video where rtd said you know avoid spoilers i had no idea what what he was saying

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probably generation is what he was yeah we did it wasn't a spoiler in the sense that we knew

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bonnie langford was coming back although i thought she was coming back uh in the series

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gats were so this was yeah earlier than i realized but i i i think the reason that they're bringing

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her back is because they think bonnie langford is great and i'm not going to argue with that at all

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i'm probably feeling slightly disappointed that she i mean i know it was set up in power of the

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dialects but that she's just sort of now another kind of unit grunt i mean she's not obviously but

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it's like does everyone have to be working for unit now i i can see kate's uh point of view on

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that you got a group of people who are who are vested in dealing with aliens and have proven

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themselves to be defenders of sure and understanding i absolutely see her point for you on that and i'm

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kind of fine with it and i would have been disappointed if i thought this was it done

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well the fact that donna is now working for unit is going to cause problems when

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you know we have unit stories in the future and katherine tate isn't in them but hey ho

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maybe she spills coffee on the vlinks and uh and destroys them they have to fire her

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yeah there we go that seems fair i i so i i think i i think i would have been disappointed

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if this was it for mel but as it is you know it's nice to see her and i'm looking forward to

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more mel i i will pick up on something that i said about chibnall that i now need to retract

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Because I got quite cross, I think, when we were talking about Power of the Doctor, about the fact that when he brought Tegan and Ace back, he stuck in some dialogue about
their not having seen the Doctor for a certain number of years, which basically trampled all over the big Finnish stuff that had established what they had actually
been doing in those intervening years.

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so that they couldn't be continuous.

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And I was cross about it,

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partly because I kind of think that's unnecessary.

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It's like when he does a Mary Shelley story,

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of course, he's got to basically rewrite

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the big Finnish Mary Shelley stuff.

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They, you know, he couldn't fit it around that.

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But with this, it would be easy.

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I said, I think at the time,

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there's no way RTD would have done that.

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So now, R2D sticks in some utterly pointless dialogue.

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There's no way Moffat would have done that.

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He sticks in some utterly pointless dialogue.

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Well, actually, it's true. Moffat wouldn't.

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Moffat, the one who actually walked out of that initial Big Finish planning meeting,

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is the one who has been most respectful, actually sticking the names of companions into Night of the Doctor.

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But RTD, who we know absolutely listens to Big Finish, enjoys it, has ripped off at least two or three of the Big Finish stories to make into episodes now.

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But he doesn't need to kind of do all that stuff about what happened to Samalong Glitz that contradicts the stuff I was talking about earlier that Big Finish have been
writing in order to continue Mel's storyline later in her timeline.

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They have a version of her leaving Samalong Glitz, which is not after he's died from tripping over a whiskey bottle or whatever it is.

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I mean, Big Finish will deal with it.

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They'll probably have her go back.

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I mean, it's difficult now Tony Selby is dead,

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but they'll probably have her go back to Sabalong Blitz

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in her personal timeline, reunite with him,

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so that she can see him.

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Well, that will help, actually.

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Big Phenis can fix their problem then,

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because the other one is...

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The fact that she's 20 years too young.

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20, maybe 60?

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I don't know.

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I mean, I don't know how old Tony Selby,

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the actor, was when they made...

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He would have been 83 this year, I think,

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if he was still alive.

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from that okay so yeah 20 20 more years of age on mel for him to have been 101 assuming that you

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know he's an alien maybe he was already 95 and we just don't know i mean you can make that argument

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or you can say that mel left savalon glyphs went off with the fifth doctor i don't know if that's

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what happened i haven't heard those stories i'm just getting it from what you said and then he

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drops her back off uh she picks up with savalon glyphs when he's 99 and oh uh i landed at the

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wrong time sorry now i can't do anything about it or i'll cross the timeline so okay fine

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they can fix that they can fix it they did the thing that annoyed me was just that that that

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kind of that little bit of dialogue didn't really add anything it was it was kind of pointless fan

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service whereas in the video commentary rtd mentions that he wrote he wrote a bit during

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the regeneration scene where mel starts saying that she'd seen this before in the kershia

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and Tennant sort of said, do you mind?

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Because he said that I live regenerating.

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And I was thinking, well, that would have been hilarious.

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So, you know, it would have done the fan service bit,

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but it would actually have served a purpose

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in terms of creating a comedy moment.

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Whereas, you know, what you get there didn't.

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And it wasn't the only example of it.

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I don't see why he has to be explicit about the toymaker

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having only met the doctor once before.

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because Big Finish have done The Magic Mousetrap and Solitaire

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and a version of Nightmare Fair,

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which was going to be the sixth Doctor story

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when Colin Banker and Michael Gough

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were going to face off against each other again.

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And it's a shame he's kind of erased those

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because two of those are absolutely brilliant.

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I do think Nightmare Fair is dreadful,

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but I would definitely recommend...

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Anything from that season was going to be dreadful.

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You know it was.

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Yes.

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That's why they didn't make it and why Big Finish should have not made it either.

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But hey-ho.

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Yeah.

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Yeah, we'll hope.

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Maybe.

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I know you'd already guessed it, but we definitely need Moffat's hand back here to fix a bunch of this stuff.

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And I'll just throw in here from the commentary, Moffat did save us from one thing.

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Apparently, he saw the opening credits that RTD had made, the new ones.

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And they had included a scene where the doctor and Donna are hanging out the door of the TARDIS, waving as they go by.

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And Moffat was like, now you've got to take that out.

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And he did it with RGD.

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Yes, he had it for them as well for the new credits.

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He's like, you've got to take that out.

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Just take it out.

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But I was thinking, no, take it out.

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And he did it, which is like, thank you.

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Listen to Moffat more often, please.

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I think I'm sure you're right.

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I'm sure you're right.

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But there is a little bit of me that wants to see what that looked like.

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I'll see how bad it was.

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That would be, to me, as bad as Sylvester McCoy's wink.

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Winking.

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Yeah.

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Oh, that was terrible.

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It was like, oh, don't.

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It is terrible.

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Don't.

00:17:53.580 --> 00:17:54.660
Yeah, don't do that.

00:17:54.790 --> 00:17:57.420
So that would just be another JNT RTD comparison.

00:17:58.100 --> 00:17:58.640
The wave.

00:17:59.840 --> 00:18:00.980
The wave is the wink.

00:18:03.300 --> 00:18:07.660
I think Colin Baker's smile was bad enough, but the wink was terrible.

00:18:08.120 --> 00:18:13.280
uh that we go there clearly bernard cribbins had either died or become incapable of working between

00:18:13.680 --> 00:18:19.220
filming the last one and filming this one yep um that that scene was very poorly done

00:18:20.080 --> 00:18:24.800
hiding well just basically there is that scene where donna says you're gonna take him and you're

00:18:24.860 --> 00:18:30.540
gonna get into safety and like there's nothing there because it's just being completely obscured

00:18:30.680 --> 00:18:36.319
there is we do see a scene where somebody in a hat with a dad's head down is slightly being turned

00:18:36.660 --> 00:18:44.980
but yeah and i and i you know it's a it's a shame i i i wondered why the last episode

00:18:46.080 --> 00:18:53.020
had the in memory of bernard cribbins um dedication to because you know right at the

00:18:53.140 --> 00:18:57.880
end where they materialize and bernard cribbins is there and you think oh right he's going to be

00:18:57.880 --> 00:19:03.199
a big character in the next story it's his last appearance on screen that's why slightly strange

00:19:03.220 --> 00:19:06.460
well it was his last appearance on screen but i thought it wasn't going to be his last appearance

00:19:06.540 --> 00:19:12.020
on screen having yeah having seen him appear there i thought you know even if he only appeared and i

00:19:12.140 --> 00:19:15.420
did know he hadn't been able to film all the scenes that they'd intended to but i thought

00:19:15.840 --> 00:19:20.920
if he was only appearing briefly there there would still be you know the other half of that scene as

00:19:20.980 --> 00:19:27.799
it were in this episode and they would dedicate this one but i i get it now i get it and that that

00:19:27.820 --> 00:19:33.780
that point i was making we were talking about the star beast of of how they had written in that

00:19:34.420 --> 00:19:42.560
tribute to nicholas courtney yeah when he died and what you know why why they were making jokes

00:19:42.840 --> 00:19:51.100
about wilf not being dead and again on the video commentary rtd wrote in a scene about wilf having

00:19:51.460 --> 00:19:58.020
died the kind of tribute to it and that got cut because it apparently it's not very happy

00:19:58.860 --> 00:20:04.540
but you know well colin's phil gonson supposedly was like now you gotta you gotta do it happen

00:20:04.660 --> 00:20:11.660
i i i asked which would be better i mean i i think if anybody could have written one that

00:20:11.660 --> 00:20:17.979
was appropriate and not brought the mood down and yet still was somber enough i think it was rdd

00:20:18.360 --> 00:20:20.120
I think that's what he could do.

00:20:20.820 --> 00:20:25.080
And I think it's the same thing about the regeneration.

00:20:26.420 --> 00:20:27.040
Happy ending.

00:20:28.520 --> 00:20:30.020
Well, it's not necessarily a happy ending.

00:20:30.240 --> 00:20:32.920
It's a way of dealing with loss.

00:20:33.600 --> 00:20:36.340
You know, the fact is, Tennant is going.

00:20:36.440 --> 00:20:40.580
If you like Tennant's doctor, sorry, but that's that.

00:20:40.780 --> 00:20:41.840
You're losing him.

00:20:42.360 --> 00:20:45.260
And, you know, death, the ultimate loss.

00:20:45.960 --> 00:20:47.680
Bernard Cribbins is no longer with us.

00:20:48.160 --> 00:20:58.800
And, you know, the show, it would be nice if the show paid tribute to the contributions that he has made over the years.

00:20:59.659 --> 00:21:04.160
And I think, as you say, it could that could have been done in a way.

00:21:04.820 --> 00:21:05.640
It's sad.

00:21:06.060 --> 00:21:12.080
But at the same time, you know, it celebrates him rather than just takes the mood down.

00:21:12.160 --> 00:21:19.500
so yeah you know another thing about that that final scene in in um wild blue yonder i realized

00:21:19.620 --> 00:21:26.100
that as you say they couldn't film all the scenes they wanted to film for him in the in this episode

00:21:26.260 --> 00:21:33.120
in the giggle but his lines of dialogue in wild blue yonder do not fit oh thank goodness you're

00:21:33.200 --> 00:21:42.120
here i i sent all the others to safety and i'm gonna wait here for you it's like does rtd not

00:21:42.180 --> 00:21:49.620
write read his own scripts because if they who have not traveled in the TARDIS are also affected

00:21:49.780 --> 00:21:55.840
by the giggle then they're not gonna go I got them to safety no you're not you're not gonna

00:21:56.100 --> 00:22:02.400
convince them to do anything they don't want to do it's like was wolf in the TARDIS yes didn't he

00:22:03.040 --> 00:22:07.180
travel I don't remember I don't remember him traveling in the episode where the doctor

00:22:07.980 --> 00:22:13.960
died the end of time wolf was his companion yeah i think he took him in it not for long but i think

00:22:13.960 --> 00:22:18.980
he took a trip in it i do remember them being on a space station looking uh yeah yeah that must

00:22:18.980 --> 00:22:24.100
have been in the tardis yeah okay that's fair because i was wondering there was that explanation

00:22:24.280 --> 00:22:29.080
that traveling in the tardis somehow stopped you being affected by the giggle but i have

00:22:29.920 --> 00:22:35.860
explanation i have questions about that part partly which is is that consistent with people

00:22:35.880 --> 00:22:37.320
who are and are not affected by it.

00:22:37.320 --> 00:22:38.600
And also, why?

00:22:39.360 --> 00:22:39.500
Why?

00:22:40.200 --> 00:22:40.460
Why?

00:22:40.780 --> 00:22:41.980
It keeps you out of sync.

00:22:42.260 --> 00:22:43.460
Yeah, don't think, don't think.

00:22:44.040 --> 00:22:45.000
Don't think, don't think.

00:22:46.000 --> 00:22:51.580
I want to know is how Unit managed to get the VDEXs, ZDEXs built.

00:22:52.300 --> 00:22:54.520
If two days ago they all went mad too,

00:22:55.190 --> 00:22:57.020
with the exception of Mel and the Vlynx.

00:22:57.600 --> 00:23:02.220
Did Mel and the Vlynx make one and then one by one get the Unit staff back?

00:23:02.780 --> 00:23:03.820
There's a story there.

00:23:03.890 --> 00:23:05.080
The implication was Vlynx already had one.

00:23:05.520 --> 00:23:06.800
It was Flink's tech, wasn't it?

00:23:07.020 --> 00:23:09.800
But how they manufactured them, I don't know.

00:23:10.420 --> 00:23:10.920
Well, I don't know.

00:23:11.320 --> 00:23:13.460
I didn't think that it was.

00:23:14.060 --> 00:23:17.340
I thought he invented it, but I thought he invented it in response to the crisis.

00:23:17.460 --> 00:23:19.360
But it's not stated explicitly either way.

00:23:20.020 --> 00:23:20.820
But, yeah.

00:23:22.520 --> 00:23:23.200
Let's see.

00:23:23.900 --> 00:23:26.860
That is all I had about the episode itself.

00:23:28.140 --> 00:23:28.300
Wow.

00:23:29.000 --> 00:23:29.320
All right.

00:23:29.560 --> 00:23:32.480
Well, now we've got stuff on the episode.

00:23:32.820 --> 00:23:41.980
And I'm going to pick up with, you know, what we're just talking about in terms of whether traveling in the TARDIS immunizes you against this phenomenon of the giggle.

00:23:42.840 --> 00:23:46.300
Because I've got a question about, because you've got Logie Baird at the beginning of it, right?

00:23:48.159 --> 00:23:52.860
But the giggle, apparently what we're told is it is in every screen.

00:23:54.140 --> 00:23:55.060
Yep, which of course.

00:23:55.360 --> 00:23:55.500
Yeah.

00:23:55.740 --> 00:23:59.600
My point here is that, but television isn't screens, right?

00:23:59.820 --> 00:24:05.120
Well, I mean, I don't know how we want to define television, but an essential part of it is to do with transmission.

00:24:05.330 --> 00:24:07.520
If it's screens, right, cinema.

00:24:08.260 --> 00:24:09.620
Cinema's been around for a while.

00:24:10.200 --> 00:24:15.960
In fact, you know, you could even say what the butler saw machines are screens of a sense.

00:24:16.580 --> 00:24:21.920
If it's the particular tech that Logie Baird invented.

00:24:23.240 --> 00:24:28.860
Well, actually, Logie Baird's mechanical televisions are not like the cathode ray tube.

00:24:29.680 --> 00:24:31.480
televisions that actually made

00:24:32.040 --> 00:24:33.560
television popular in the 20th

00:24:33.720 --> 00:24:35.920
century and anyway in the 21st

00:24:36.060 --> 00:24:37.600
century cathode rage

00:24:37.600 --> 00:24:39.560
she was no longer around they were you know

00:24:39.600 --> 00:24:41.300
they were going out in the 90s so

00:24:41.940 --> 00:24:43.680
I have no

00:24:44.020 --> 00:24:45.340
idea what was going on there but

00:24:45.460 --> 00:24:46.920
you know okay. Toymaker magic

00:24:47.640 --> 00:24:49.140
see toymaker magic

00:24:49.440 --> 00:24:51.420
he can do that because he's the toymaker

00:24:51.600 --> 00:24:53.300
and physical laws don't apply to him

00:24:53.900 --> 00:24:55.600
but that's literally what we were told

00:24:56.060 --> 00:24:57.320
that he didn't need the satellites

00:24:57.340 --> 00:25:04.080
or the tvs it's he didn't didn't need that so but my question was just why put logie bed in it and i

00:25:04.240 --> 00:25:08.980
i couldn't see a reason for i mean ironically it's supposed to be educational remember scotts

00:25:09.160 --> 00:25:16.980
invented tv ironically enough i think you could have put logie bed into last year's big november

00:25:17.180 --> 00:25:24.060
special the power of the doctor which was supposedly the the kind of celebration of 100

00:25:24.080 --> 00:25:30.620
years of the BBC but actually for me just in just in terms of you know we've talked about whether

00:25:30.690 --> 00:25:37.400
these are anniversary specials or just a mini season of Doctor Who and for me this felt like

00:25:37.400 --> 00:25:44.160
a mini season of Doctor Who and last year's Power of the Doctor was what I feel like an anniversary

00:25:44.420 --> 00:25:51.520
special is I mean that had had 50th anniversary vibes in it because of Tegan and Ace and all the

00:25:51.540 --> 00:25:59.020
past doctors turning up so but i yeah i in terms of logie baird being being in it that did not

00:25:59.200 --> 00:26:07.020
really make any sense to me it just seemed to be trying to take that plot from the silence story

00:26:07.160 --> 00:26:14.640
and the moon landings and kind of trying to reapply it but not actually it fitting yeah

00:26:15.780 --> 00:26:23.000
the toymaker i'm not i've we've kind of done most of the toymaker stuff but i do have to mention i

00:26:23.180 --> 00:26:28.800
kind of quite like i everyone was very excited about neil patrick harris or patrick neil harris

00:26:29.310 --> 00:26:34.000
or harris patrick neil whatever his name is who i wasn't familiar with i did think he was very very

00:26:34.070 --> 00:26:41.960
good what what was the german accent the cod german accent about is that kind of because

00:26:41.980 --> 00:26:51.640
again games i know with the celestial toy maker that there are reasons why it is considered

00:26:51.900 --> 00:27:01.300
offensive i haven't seen it so is this is this a way of just doing kind of some much milder form

00:27:01.500 --> 00:27:06.400
of offensive i mean like i found this i'm not quite sure if it was offensive or just really

00:27:06.500 --> 00:27:15.060
really annoying but it was definitely annoying exactly kind of bad god's german accent i thought

00:27:15.090 --> 00:27:23.360
it was slightly offensive actually i i i will say i was vaguely amused afterwards my wife said to me

00:27:23.900 --> 00:27:29.000
she said no i was i was really impressed when he was doing the german accent because he sounds

00:27:29.300 --> 00:27:33.960
exactly like the math teacher we have at school because they have a german math teacher so

00:27:36.800 --> 00:27:41.900
so maybe maybe that's what a german sounds like to an american which neil patrick harris is an

00:27:41.900 --> 00:27:48.740
american um he's american yes okay yes he's doogie hauser he's the original doogie hauser

00:27:49.400 --> 00:27:55.760
oh okay that's who he is well well well um and i think he was in some he was in another sitcom a

00:27:55.940 --> 00:28:03.940
big one uh which i've never seen an episode of uh how i met your mother i believe he is no i'm

00:28:03.960 --> 00:28:09.080
seen the obnoxious i've seen doogie howser i've heard of it i haven't seen doogie howser but

00:28:09.160 --> 00:28:14.280
you've heard of it yeah there's a new doogie howser out now i think it's a different child

00:28:14.640 --> 00:28:20.640
doctor but yeah that's uh yeah and that is yeah i can see you i don't know if you noticed the teeth

00:28:21.300 --> 00:28:27.120
did you notice he was prosthetic teeth no oh no the rest of them he had like two or three times

00:28:27.220 --> 00:28:32.279
as many teeth as a human being in his mouth i didn't bother it was it was a prosthetic piece

00:28:32.760 --> 00:28:38.660
they did on purpose a couple of his smiles you'll catch it and they're like that looks wrong it's a

00:28:38.780 --> 00:28:44.240
very subtle effect it's a very subtle effect and i never would have even looked for it if i hadn't

00:28:44.400 --> 00:28:49.000
heard him in an interview after it saying i've got this mouthpiece in for the teeth i'm like

00:28:49.640 --> 00:28:54.540
and and then you look at it and like oh yeah he's got at least 30 teeth in the front when he smiles

00:28:55.320 --> 00:29:02.640
like it's it's it's creepy look at that's a very subtle special effect but uh i don't know if it's

00:29:02.780 --> 00:29:07.740
effective because i'm it just it just put me off a little bit but it didn't uh you know he's from

00:29:07.880 --> 00:29:13.600
hollywood so i figured he just had a bright shiny pearly smile anyway we met we mentioned the

00:29:13.920 --> 00:29:21.840
master's teeth and that that's obviously a setup but there was also a lot of other kind of fan

00:29:21.860 --> 00:29:28.400
service continuity in there we've talked about sabalong glitz as well but the guardians the

00:29:29.020 --> 00:29:36.260
yeah white garden they're dead trial of a time lord um being exiled to us key to time logopolis

00:29:37.110 --> 00:29:44.640
uh adric bit of spoiler there everything on you've got gods of ragnarok uh river song

00:29:45.440 --> 00:29:46.880
The Time War, Mavic Chen

00:29:47.799 --> 00:29:48.360
Pandorica

00:29:48.920 --> 00:29:51.460
Mavic Chen, that's fan service

00:29:52.080 --> 00:29:52.260
Yeah

00:29:52.860 --> 00:29:53.240
Well yeah

00:29:54.840 --> 00:29:57.060
Are there any surviving episodes of Mavic Chen?

00:29:57.700 --> 00:29:58.620
Don't believe so

00:29:58.680 --> 00:30:01.500
No because I don't think they know what anybody looks like

00:30:02.259 --> 00:30:02.820
Maybe

00:30:03.020 --> 00:30:04.760
Maybe that means that Warner Brothers

00:30:04.920 --> 00:30:05.420
We're going to get animated

00:30:06.779 --> 00:30:08.320
But what does

00:30:08.540 --> 00:30:11.180
What does Sarah Jane has gone mean

00:30:11.840 --> 00:30:12.800
To a time traveller

00:30:13.400 --> 00:30:14.780
I mean obviously she's dead

00:30:14.800 --> 00:30:15.240
But yeah.

00:30:16.000 --> 00:30:16.060
Yeah.

00:30:16.600 --> 00:30:16.700
But.

00:30:17.340 --> 00:30:20.840
Well, just like the brigadier, though, they mourned the death of the brigadier.

00:30:21.000 --> 00:30:24.920
Matt Smith mourned the death of the brigadier, even though he could go back in time and see him again.

00:30:25.680 --> 00:30:25.920
Yes.

00:30:26.960 --> 00:30:34.540
But there was a reason for that in the sense that he was he was checking in on the brigadier in that time and place.

00:30:34.940 --> 00:30:35.080
Yeah.

00:30:35.660 --> 00:30:39.780
But this is this comes out of nowhere saying Sarah and Sarah Jane has gone.

00:30:40.080 --> 00:30:40.840
Can you believe that?

00:30:40.960 --> 00:30:41.960
Well, OK.

00:30:42.220 --> 00:30:52.060
But, you know, if you were 100 years in the future having that conversation, which they easily could have been, Joe Gron has gone as well, you know.

00:30:52.500 --> 00:30:55.340
So, I mean, goodness me, much would.

00:30:55.620 --> 00:31:00.580
Hopefully, Katie Manning has not gone by the time this podcast airs.

00:31:01.140 --> 00:31:02.520
Or 100 years from now.

00:31:02.800 --> 00:31:05.740
But, you know, pick her as an example.

00:31:05.920 --> 00:31:08.660
Yeah, I'm just saying.

00:31:09.860 --> 00:31:17.200
it felt like a force wall breaking thing um not sure not sure that i needed all of that fan service

00:31:17.400 --> 00:31:22.060
but i guess that's what we're getting as a substitute for it being a proper 60th anniversary

00:31:22.799 --> 00:31:26.920
celebration well that and that and the fact that we get trinity wells back you mentioned all of

00:31:26.920 --> 00:31:33.020
the things that were present from the last of the time lords but you didn't mention trinity wells

00:31:33.700 --> 00:31:35.820
and Trinity Wells has not appeared in the show

00:31:36.000 --> 00:31:36.820
since the end of time.

00:31:37.720 --> 00:31:38.080
Why?

00:31:38.580 --> 00:31:41.020
What is it that RTD has got for that character

00:31:41.080 --> 00:31:41.940
or that actor?

00:31:42.640 --> 00:31:43.460
I don't get it.

00:31:44.060 --> 00:31:45.120
She gets an entire,

00:31:45.440 --> 00:31:48.580
there's an entire episode of a Big Finish,

00:31:49.340 --> 00:31:50.260
you know, an hour long play

00:31:50.460 --> 00:31:51.680
that centers on her character

00:31:52.300 --> 00:31:54.880
from the Lives of Captain Jack series.

00:31:55.960 --> 00:31:58.460
So I'm sure the Trinity Wells fan base

00:31:58.720 --> 00:31:59.940
are celebrating.

00:32:00.780 --> 00:32:01.400
Naturally enough,

00:32:01.900 --> 00:32:03.400
The big Finnish version was actually good.

00:32:04.210 --> 00:32:11.000
Every time I see Trinity Wells on the screen, and this is a terrible thing to say, but it's true because this is not me.

00:32:11.400 --> 00:32:12.460
This is American television.

00:32:13.060 --> 00:32:15.120
She's supposed to be the American television host.

00:32:15.150 --> 00:32:24.360
And I just find it hard to believe that they would hire someone, particularly back when Doctor Who was first showing, that wasn't absolutely perfect.

00:32:25.299 --> 00:32:30.340
And because that's how they hire women on television in the United States.

00:32:30.720 --> 00:32:40.340
It's very, very, very rare for an actual journalist to make it onto TV news reading, a female journalist, right?

00:32:40.560 --> 00:32:42.880
There are very few and far between.

00:32:43.340 --> 00:32:46.860
And if Trinity Wells is supposed to be that, we don't get that.

00:32:47.360 --> 00:32:52.080
So it's just the first reaction is you see somebody pop up and you go, oh, that's a guest on a news program.

00:32:52.580 --> 00:32:59.920
Because guests on news people can be, you know, look like normal human beings, but the hosts have to be perfect.

00:33:00.960 --> 00:33:08.020
and perfect and it's like wow okay i could see her running a conspiracy website which obviously

00:33:08.100 --> 00:33:16.800
she is now but anti uh yeah anti-chronic there's there's our covid comment covid vaccine comment

00:33:17.780 --> 00:33:23.220
yeah yeah i i want to say once again in this episode we had it last time we have it this

00:33:23.360 --> 00:33:30.140
episode again and it it leads into a comment something rtt said in the show but once again

00:33:30.160 --> 00:33:32.980
Basically, when Shirley asks how the heck does a toy maker do that?

00:33:33.180 --> 00:33:36.180
And the doctor says, basically, you're too stupid to understand.

00:33:37.740 --> 00:33:37.900
Right.

00:33:38.300 --> 00:33:39.500
You can't understand it.

00:33:39.530 --> 00:33:46.400
So don't even bother because you can't understand it, which is him talking to the audience saying, don't bother to pick this apart because it's not going to make any
sense.

00:33:47.120 --> 00:33:50.220
So you can just which, of course, it doesn't, which is don't think.

00:33:50.860 --> 00:33:53.020
And he it's like so.

00:33:53.140 --> 00:34:00.080
But once you do that, once you say that the toy maker can do anything and anything that makes no sense whatsoever, then suddenly you go, well, then why did he waste?

00:34:00.160 --> 00:34:04.680
this time doing it the way that he did do this it doesn't make sense but but we got into that but

00:34:04.720 --> 00:34:09.639
it's just it's like this is at least the second in a row and i don't remember if there was a moment

00:34:09.780 --> 00:34:15.100
like that in the first one now but you know this ties into the fact that oh i cast salt at the end

00:34:15.100 --> 00:34:19.840
of the universe and now i've let all the bad things in and the toy maker was one of the bad

00:34:20.040 --> 00:34:28.520
things rtd does say in this commentary that he likes having these godlike beings because they

00:34:28.540 --> 00:34:34.520
can do anything i he maybe he's not realizing what he's telling us here when he says that but

00:34:34.540 --> 00:34:42.740
he is telling us i don't like being constrained in what i can tell in my fantasy story and there are

00:34:42.919 --> 00:34:52.360
more gods coming back these legions are following the boss was obviously not the toy maker no and

00:34:52.360 --> 00:34:56.700
there is there's a thing hiding in the universe that even the toy maker is afraid to challenge

00:34:56.919 --> 00:35:03.500
so he's afraid of yes more that's probably the boss chick stuff and yeah and and but you know

00:35:03.550 --> 00:35:08.840
he also said well you know we should have the gods of ragnarok back it's like oh no really i i'm not

00:35:08.960 --> 00:35:17.100
one of the people who thinks that that particular episode of doctor who was a good one what is that

00:35:17.200 --> 00:35:25.060
circus at the greatest show in the galaxy there we go yes um but yeah i i'm not of course maybe

00:35:25.080 --> 00:35:31.520
he likes those episodes of a big finish where they're up against the the gods i i find it

00:35:32.220 --> 00:35:38.180
problematic from a storytelling point of view but yeah that that is unfortunately that's coming

00:35:38.880 --> 00:35:43.020
and salt at the end of the universe is that is that a superstition or did you literally make

00:35:43.160 --> 00:35:52.060
that superstition up to to to make an excuse that is a superstition and because because

00:35:52.819 --> 00:35:58.300
whoever thought end of the universe would be a place where you could cast salt you know i don't

00:35:58.440 --> 00:36:04.060
understand that superstition then what what is it specifically no no no this so the superstition is

00:36:04.160 --> 00:36:09.520
that i i forget whether it's vampires or something else but the superstition is that you can keep

00:36:09.520 --> 00:36:18.080
them out with salt the line zombies in zombies what okay the line in wild blue yonder is because

00:36:18.100 --> 00:36:23.680
this is at the edge of the universe i shouldn't have done that because at the edge of the universe

00:36:23.920 --> 00:36:31.020
anything can happen which is obviously a foreshadowing line in the same way that's

00:36:31.020 --> 00:36:37.500
hiding in the universe the bosses the legions are coming the master's tooth but but it does

00:36:38.160 --> 00:36:42.660
it does make it difficult and i think we've had this with every showrunner of doctor who is that

00:36:42.680 --> 00:36:48.440
they put these clues in and sometimes like the doctor wearing a different jacket in Matt Smith's

00:36:48.580 --> 00:36:55.560
first season turns out to be a huge reveal and sometimes the doctor regenerating into a different

00:36:55.740 --> 00:37:02.260
set of clothes turns out just to have no consequence whatsoever or the word gravity

00:37:02.540 --> 00:37:08.920
becoming gravity appears to have no consequence whatsoever so I'm not quite sure which things to

00:37:08.940 --> 00:37:14.240
attach any significance to did they say gravity in this episode at all didn't didn't hear them

00:37:14.380 --> 00:37:20.860
say gravity or mervity yeah i think they're gonna forget that too yeah i think yeah come on come

00:37:21.060 --> 00:37:27.540
back fix fix some stuff maybe maybe just maybe rtd can write the whole season and just have

00:37:27.800 --> 00:37:32.140
moffett come in for the final episode of each season and go okay now fix it you clean up what

00:37:32.140 --> 00:37:37.680
i made the mess of the tragedy the tragedy is that the thing the things that i'm now remembering

00:37:37.700 --> 00:37:43.720
about watching RTD stuff was that I like the small RTD episodes,

00:37:43.860 --> 00:37:46.560
the ones that aren't the big kind of story arc episodes.

00:37:47.120 --> 00:37:50.020
But actually the thing I mainly looked forward to was every episode,

00:37:50.700 --> 00:37:53.800
sorry, every season was the episode that Stephen Moffat writes.

00:37:54.020 --> 00:37:55.320
Moffat wrote, yes.

00:37:55.980 --> 00:37:57.160
And we're not going to get that.

00:37:57.880 --> 00:37:59.420
You know, Moffat is not going to come back.

00:38:01.180 --> 00:38:03.600
But RTD said exactly the same thing.

00:38:04.120 --> 00:38:05.760
I will never write for Doctor Who again.

00:38:06.380 --> 00:38:07.000
They both said it.

00:38:07.160 --> 00:38:13.040
But I think I'm not going to write for someone else running the show.

00:38:13.280 --> 00:38:17.960
You know, I'm not going to have someone else picking over my script or making the kind of final creative decision.

00:38:17.980 --> 00:38:19.820
Somebody should be picking over his script.

00:38:20.560 --> 00:38:22.000
I think they should.

00:38:22.050 --> 00:38:34.220
I think he, you know, he needs he needs he needs someone to, yeah, to set to kind of sense check some of his ideas because he's very good at the idea generation stuff.

00:38:34.740 --> 00:38:43.580
And he himself is actually very careful, I think, of not overworking some of his ideas because he doesn't want to lose the freshness of it, which is fair enough.

00:38:43.820 --> 00:38:58.600
But if he can't rework some of these things or can't spot what he needs to keep and what he needs to chuck, I think that's where having a script editor with some authority
to do that would be possibly a good idea.

00:38:59.260 --> 00:39:04.360
Yeah, I have a hard time believing the script editor can say no to RGD, but, you know.

00:39:04.540 --> 00:39:19.280
Yeah. Okay. So, you know, for all the things that we pick on here about how RTD, I'm using the term loosely, messed up the Doctor Who universe. Moffat comes in, fixes all
sorts of stuff, which he did.

00:39:19.860 --> 00:39:21.200
he came in and

00:39:21.520 --> 00:39:23.780
yes he can but he

00:39:23.890 --> 00:39:25.720
you know he had his plan and he

00:39:26.200 --> 00:39:27.240
he fixed it out

00:39:27.700 --> 00:39:29.660
RTD doesn't usually seem to care

00:39:30.220 --> 00:39:31.160
about these things

00:39:31.530 --> 00:39:33.100
but I feel like maybe

00:39:33.740 --> 00:39:34.420
just maybe

00:39:35.380 --> 00:39:37.180
maybe he handed us

00:39:37.660 --> 00:39:39.560
a prize in this episode

00:39:40.280 --> 00:39:41.580
when he said

00:39:41.750 --> 00:39:43.180
when the toy maker said

00:39:43.370 --> 00:39:45.480
to the doctor I made a

00:39:45.750 --> 00:39:47.180
puzzle of your past

00:39:47.860 --> 00:39:55.940
and suddenly all of the chibnall timeless child crap became something the toy maker did and

00:39:56.180 --> 00:40:01.000
because it doesn't have to make sense because the toy maker is a god and can do anything

00:40:01.800 --> 00:40:07.880
we can now go well okay there can be other doctors that they think they're from before

00:40:08.560 --> 00:40:17.160
the first doctor because he did that to screw with the doctor's head okay i think i think that

00:40:17.180 --> 00:40:22.700
definitely a i think that's exactly what it was it was a new it's the new time war in effect yeah

00:40:23.000 --> 00:40:28.220
it's a clean that i've just cleaned that slate now the past is the best although i was going to

00:40:28.240 --> 00:40:34.580
say the other alternative is this although you know the time yeah i i prefer that one but they

00:40:34.820 --> 00:40:39.700
say when they bi-generate they say what's a myth it never happened it's like well if it's a myth

00:40:40.200 --> 00:40:50.740
How did what made you think what event happened to make there be a myth about the idea of by generating?

00:40:51.180 --> 00:40:56.440
Why would that idea have even sprung forth unless it has, in fact, actually happened?

00:40:56.680 --> 00:40:59.660
And did it happen before William Hartnell?

00:41:00.340 --> 00:41:02.780
So was Hartnell a Gatwa?

00:41:03.440 --> 00:41:05.780
Was he a by generation split?

00:41:06.120 --> 00:41:08.240
And then he didn't get to keep his memories.

00:41:08.860 --> 00:41:09.420
I don't know.

00:41:09.840 --> 00:41:13.900
that doesn't work literally the TARDIS the whole thing doesn't work everything that is a myth

00:41:14.500 --> 00:41:21.660
in Doctor Who turns out to be something real you know true that's right it's yeah yeah yeah it's

00:41:21.660 --> 00:41:26.660
it always works out that way because that's storytelling in our in this kind of universe

00:41:27.120 --> 00:41:35.280
so you know it must have happened in the past hopefully it wasn't Rassilon but but but you know

00:41:35.300 --> 00:41:39.320
I prefer the toy maker just screwed with the doctor's past.

00:41:39.600 --> 00:41:40.040
And so,

00:41:40.740 --> 00:41:41.160
all right,

00:41:41.280 --> 00:41:42.000
it's kind of,

00:41:42.660 --> 00:41:43.600
it did happen,

00:41:43.740 --> 00:41:45.000
but it didn't really happen,

00:41:45.860 --> 00:41:47.360
but I've remade reality.

00:41:47.580 --> 00:41:48.120
So it did.

00:41:48.740 --> 00:41:50.700
So it's like,

00:41:50.980 --> 00:41:51.820
I'll take that.

00:41:52.340 --> 00:41:52.680
I will,

00:41:52.760 --> 00:41:53.940
I will accept that one.

00:41:53.940 --> 00:41:54.620
I don't like it,

00:41:55.080 --> 00:42:00.340
but that one I can take the bit where the William Hartnell is not the first

00:42:00.520 --> 00:42:05.260
doctor and William Hartnell gets a TARDIS and is surprised that it's

00:42:05.280 --> 00:42:12.420
in a police box form after that makes no sense for there to be all those other doctors with a

00:42:12.920 --> 00:42:19.440
blue police guy that doesn't work but by but by plunking down and shuffling it around a little

00:42:19.540 --> 00:42:27.280
bit uh okay all right fine whatever i'll take it i'll take that as at best i'm ever gonna get

00:42:27.530 --> 00:42:32.920
at fixing the flux well i'm not sure it fixes well it can fix anything but that wasn't the flux

00:42:33.600 --> 00:42:38.320
well I think the flux is yeah no the flux is part of it because the flux was created as part of the

00:42:38.400 --> 00:42:47.720
whole you are the timeless child we need to get you back to do our our business thing so yeah the

00:42:47.780 --> 00:42:54.060
flux was a consequence of that of the timeless child so yeah no yeah that that fixes the flux

00:42:54.180 --> 00:42:59.619
it doesn't fix the fact that half the universe is gone including apparently scarrow and all the

00:42:59.640 --> 00:43:09.400
other planets but uh that that are gone but yeah um i think it it does it does help um let's see

00:43:09.960 --> 00:43:18.520
uh here's one i think my opinion i i understand why they did it i feel like in the scene at the

00:43:18.640 --> 00:43:25.260
end when there are two tardises david tenet opens the tardis bends down pops out the wheelchair ramp

00:43:25.880 --> 00:43:31.020
and then everyone makes a big deal out of the big the wheelchair ramp which in its way is a big deal

00:43:31.580 --> 00:43:37.820
i don't disagree i feel that scene would have played so much better if he had undone he'd just

00:43:38.040 --> 00:43:43.940
opened the doors popped the ramp and said come on in surely and they all walked inside to look at

00:43:43.940 --> 00:43:51.420
the tardis well walked sorry wrong word there ambled ambulated is ambulated even correct moved

00:43:51.880 --> 00:43:57.400
they all moved inside the TARDIS and looked around and were like wow that's amazing TARDIS

00:43:57.980 --> 00:44:03.380
that would be enough calling attention to it and it would be like everyone who was ever wanting

00:44:03.470 --> 00:44:07.900
there to be a wheelchair ramp in the TARDIS would be like there is a wheelchair ramp in the TARDIS

00:44:08.020 --> 00:44:13.640
this is a great day for representation and and and and I agree but you could also go back and say

00:44:13.940 --> 00:44:19.880
you know it just never came up before but yeah it's always been there I have to say that I mean

00:44:19.900 --> 00:44:24.520
again this is the the big finish thing in me although i i mentioned before i haven't got

00:44:25.420 --> 00:44:33.620
the hebe episodes but i i thought if you had just flipped it open so that shirley could go in

00:44:34.240 --> 00:44:39.600
then you did you know you could have just assumed it always been there maybe it had maybe it hadn't

00:44:39.830 --> 00:44:45.279
but you know it fits with whatever hat cannon you need it to fit with but it's still obviously there

00:44:45.780 --> 00:44:50.360
yeah it's the first time we've seen it on screen it's it's very obviously being used it's making

00:44:50.360 --> 00:44:56.940
the point and i know i i think i i agree entirely i agree with you entirely they did not use it

00:44:57.220 --> 00:45:02.480
they should have at least let them go inside the tardis for crying out loud they have a wheelchair

00:45:02.800 --> 00:45:08.700
ramp accessible tardis and they did not take the wheelchair user into the tardis they just stood

00:45:08.780 --> 00:45:12.240
around outside mel just stood around outside not going i'd like to look in the tardis again

00:45:12.780 --> 00:45:18.280
what yeah yeah it didn't make didn't make any sense and you know i if you see some of the

00:45:18.440 --> 00:45:26.460
behind the scenes stuff uh the actors i don't know was just made cried when they saw that

00:45:27.120 --> 00:45:35.600
um because it's so important and i i i get that uh but it just feels like by flipping it out and

00:45:35.620 --> 00:45:44.120
going hey look surely we'll hear you and you can't use it sorry stay out but also you're so signaling

00:45:44.320 --> 00:45:50.420
it you're signaling it but you're not showing it as being just the way things ought to be

00:45:51.320 --> 00:45:58.780
i don't know it just i it it was nice but it could have been better i think um is that the um

00:45:59.520 --> 00:46:06.980
same backyard from the star beast whoa when did we see it in the star beast that's where the shed

00:46:07.160 --> 00:46:12.860
was oh god doesn't look it no it probably is it's probably just filmed from a completely

00:46:13.000 --> 00:46:19.080
different maybe it's maybe it's mom's house i guess it could be yeah because yeah it could be

00:46:19.260 --> 00:46:25.859
yeah no i don't know no idea no idea well let's see i want to say something positive because

00:46:26.160 --> 00:46:35.280
you know i feel like i've spent most of this 115 minutes of recording time she got it i i i have

00:46:36.579 --> 00:46:46.420
previously kind of criticized the fact that rtd has come back and sort of it felt like he'd swept

00:46:46.640 --> 00:46:51.560
aside everything that had come before and he has gone out of his way obviously there's the stuff

00:46:51.580 --> 00:46:59.960
about amy and clara bill and the flux and the illusion rory last week's episodes the timeless

00:47:00.160 --> 00:47:07.600
not not rory not graham or he died oh i see what you mean he's yeah picking picking on the ones who

00:47:07.700 --> 00:47:15.380
died well i kind of see i don't know i kind of see why the the um the big but the big difference

00:47:15.400 --> 00:47:19.820
I think is that he has written for Kate Stewart,

00:47:20.550 --> 00:47:21.840
who is not his character.

00:47:22.520 --> 00:47:29.120
So she was written by originally by Chibnall in the Stephen

00:47:29.320 --> 00:47:31.260
Moffat run show.

00:47:31.930 --> 00:47:34.720
So post dating RTD,

00:47:35.390 --> 00:47:37.240
although he has been around for,

00:47:37.650 --> 00:47:38.060
I mean,

00:47:38.190 --> 00:47:39.120
it has been a while.

00:47:39.220 --> 00:47:44.460
She's been playing the role for 11 years and Nick Courtney was playing the

00:47:44.480 --> 00:47:50.340
Brigadier for 21 years so she's you know she's getting there she's met seven doctors now seven

00:47:50.640 --> 00:47:55.960
incarnations of the doctor I should say if I'm being true to myself but I thought that the way

00:47:57.020 --> 00:48:02.420
RTD wrote her was excellent you know it was very yeah very much kind of consistent with

00:48:02.980 --> 00:48:11.040
the Kate that we've seen and in some ways truer to the the kind of Moffat era Kate than the

00:48:11.060 --> 00:48:14.940
the Chibnall version, as in the version that has been in the Chibnall run show,

00:48:15.160 --> 00:48:18.060
rather than the version that he introduced in the Power of Three.

00:48:18.800 --> 00:48:23.480
So I enjoyed her in this episode, really glad that she's come back.

00:48:23.960 --> 00:48:27.900
Still slightly upset that Osgood isn't there.

00:48:28.460 --> 00:48:28.580
Yeah.

00:48:28.680 --> 00:48:31.340
And has now been succeeded by Shirley.

00:48:32.140 --> 00:48:35.580
I really, really want Osgood to come back, but she's clearly not going to.

00:48:36.180 --> 00:48:39.760
But it is lovely having that recurring character.

00:48:40.080 --> 00:48:42.920
I think Gemma Redgrave is great

00:48:43.200 --> 00:48:44.660
so long may she continue

00:48:45.119 --> 00:48:46.700
I thought it was interesting that

00:48:47.080 --> 00:48:48.540
in the very, in the Chibnall

00:48:49.260 --> 00:48:50.640
episode, in 42

00:48:51.340 --> 00:48:52.420
Are you talking about Power 3?

00:48:52.850 --> 00:48:54.620
Or are you talking about 42? Power 3, there we go

00:48:55.120 --> 00:48:55.560
I don't know

00:48:56.960 --> 00:48:57.680
Power 3

00:48:58.079 --> 00:49:01.000
42 was in the RTD era

00:49:01.030 --> 00:49:01.940
and didn't have Kate Stewart

00:49:02.070 --> 00:49:05.240
Yeah, that was also Chibnall though, wasn't it?

00:49:05.680 --> 00:49:06.840
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it was a Chibnall episode

00:49:07.480 --> 00:49:08.640
Alright, well at least I got that

00:49:08.660 --> 00:49:16.520
All right. Power of three. In the power of three, Matt Smith's doctor says, Kate Lethbridge Stewart.

00:49:17.140 --> 00:49:23.340
And just Kate Stewart. And subsequently has been Kate Stewart ever since.

00:49:23.820 --> 00:49:27.460
Yeah. Until this one. When Tenet goes, Kate Lethbridge Stewart.

00:49:28.260 --> 00:49:35.020
Nothing. Hug. Go on. Seems to be seems to be that RTD likes the Lethbridge Stewart better than Stewart.

00:49:35.260 --> 00:49:36.380
And I agree with him on that.

00:49:36.940 --> 00:49:39.920
If I had a cool hyphenated name like that, I would definitely use it.

00:49:40.140 --> 00:49:41.260
I don't know.

00:49:41.500 --> 00:49:46.620
But because it's been established as Kate Stewart, I wanted to stay as Kate Stewart.

00:49:46.840 --> 00:49:51.220
So my thinking on that is just that she's just got bored of correcting him.

00:49:51.820 --> 00:49:53.040
See, he's a future doctor.

00:49:53.100 --> 00:49:58.260
Now, if he'd been an earlier doctor, if he'd been the 10th doctor, he wouldn't have known that because he hadn't met her yet.

00:49:58.460 --> 00:50:00.020
But yeah, anyway.

00:50:00.720 --> 00:50:01.420
Well, but he has.

00:50:01.580 --> 00:50:02.860
The 10th doctor has met her.

00:50:03.440 --> 00:50:04.520
He's just forgotten about her.

00:50:05.180 --> 00:50:06.680
Well, yeah, true. True. True.

00:50:06.940 --> 00:50:08.820
Yeah, but he forgot about her. Will that happen

00:50:09.160 --> 00:50:10.780
now between the bi-generational

00:50:10.980 --> 00:50:12.920
doctors? When they meet each other, will one forget the

00:50:13.060 --> 00:50:14.340
other? Crossing time?

00:50:15.280 --> 00:50:16.580
What if 14

00:50:16.960 --> 00:50:18.820
meets the next incarnation of

00:50:18.920 --> 00:50:20.700
Gatwa, but he's actually 14

00:50:21.060 --> 00:50:21.700
from further in the...

00:50:23.340 --> 00:50:24.660
Anything that R2D says

00:50:24.760 --> 00:50:26.640
in the video commentary is not canon.

00:50:30.040 --> 00:50:30.960
It is canon

00:50:31.140 --> 00:50:32.780
as long as he's the toy maker playing

00:50:32.880 --> 00:50:34.780
with us. He's got to get it on screen.

00:50:34.920 --> 00:50:43.100
for me to even start to get upset about it and and you got your wish and i told you it was exactly

00:50:43.260 --> 00:50:46.780
what was going to happen i told you it was exactly what was going to happen they were going to put

00:50:46.780 --> 00:50:52.340
some furniture in that tardis to make it look like oh see it's got a jukebox now i will say

00:50:52.500 --> 00:50:57.380
presumably it's going to get a seat i know i think that's just because that was the suggestion for the

00:50:57.400 --> 00:51:04.880
old man's tardis i think datra doesn't need to sit down he's too cool i will say i was right it does

00:51:04.900 --> 00:51:13.880
with gatway in it what is that a contrast thing it's like a color contrast why does it look better

00:51:13.900 --> 00:51:21.240
with him i don't understand that statement but okay because because it's new and because he's

00:51:21.360 --> 00:51:26.480
got he's slick he's kind of got a much more i don't know i don't know it's not like it's not

00:51:26.560 --> 00:51:33.140
like tenant was ever fuddy daddy or whatever he i guess he had his own kind of style and everything

00:51:33.880 --> 00:51:39.740
but because of the I guess because of the sand shoes and because of the grungy old TARDIS he

00:51:39.900 --> 00:51:44.960
used to live in it just didn't feel like it fitted him whereas this feels a bit more like

00:51:44.960 --> 00:51:52.020
it fits Gatwa's doctor I'm not saying I like it and to be honest it could just be this is three

00:51:52.240 --> 00:51:59.900
episodes of seeing it the kind of initial dislike is just starting to wear off but I did say at the

00:51:59.920 --> 00:52:06.640
time i wondered if new tardis new doctor i might like it better it doesn't hurt whitaker's tardis

00:52:06.760 --> 00:52:14.460
never got less ugly with time you know sometimes now i will say this you build a set you make a tv

00:52:14.680 --> 00:52:23.280
show and there are good camera angles and there are bad camera angles and as series go along you

00:52:23.480 --> 00:52:29.880
learn the good angles and the bad angles right so you you'll see a show that's a long-running show

00:52:29.900 --> 00:52:33.120
see well well we've decided to concentrate on this because it makes a better shot or it makes

00:52:33.170 --> 00:52:39.340
better composition and it looks better in the long run and you know hopefully as they get going uh

00:52:39.620 --> 00:52:43.020
you know they did say in the commentary they blew their budget making that so there's no more rooms

00:52:43.590 --> 00:52:47.720
uh for the TARDIS and I'm like why did you waste your money on that big space why did you waste

00:52:47.720 --> 00:52:53.160
your money on that big space why why why geez Bill Collinson I thought you were doing a good

00:52:53.320 --> 00:52:57.519
job as a producer why didn't you stop them on that one and go can be half the size and it'll

00:52:57.540 --> 00:53:05.160
still be phenomenal i agree about camera angles i i i thought that that shot where gasway is high up

00:53:05.780 --> 00:53:12.080
and he's talking down to tenant at the console is that that may be the shot that made me feel like

00:53:12.240 --> 00:53:17.700
it's not so bad after all i think with the um with the jukebox there's going to be a pop music

00:53:18.540 --> 00:53:23.640
interlude in every episode from now on i'm certainly looking forward to that i missed the

00:53:23.660 --> 00:53:25.560
I'm not we had a bit more with

00:53:25.640 --> 00:53:27.520
Jibnall I mean Rara Rasputin was good

00:53:27.720 --> 00:53:29.680
in Power of the Doctor that was okay

00:53:29.860 --> 00:53:31.500
because it's kind of funny because he was

00:53:31.600 --> 00:53:32.100
Rasputin

00:53:33.760 --> 00:53:35.000
yeah but you're right I mean

00:53:35.540 --> 00:53:37.020
the episode did that

00:53:38.180 --> 00:53:39.540
really in the end of the

00:53:39.800 --> 00:53:41.060
world work

00:53:41.800 --> 00:53:43.620
it was it was the best thing

00:53:43.820 --> 00:53:45.560
about the the end of the

00:53:45.740 --> 00:53:45.900
world

00:53:47.700 --> 00:53:49.200
it didn't work but then

00:53:49.780 --> 00:53:50.980
it was a great gag

00:53:51.170 --> 00:53:53.620
it was a great gag because the whole point about it

00:53:53.640 --> 00:53:58.920
was it had to be something contemporary because they called it classical plus you know toxic is

00:53:58.920 --> 00:54:06.120
an excellent song 70 000 classical eras between rose's time and the end of the world but yeah

00:54:06.280 --> 00:54:13.240
toxic will never be not classical it's super i honestly had never heard that song before it came

00:54:13.300 --> 00:54:20.720
on and i've never heard it since anywhere other than that show so was it popular it was it was

00:54:20.740 --> 00:54:28.040
extremely popular um i i don't have anything else i guess i i i want to be clear here as

00:54:28.190 --> 00:54:33.720
here we are two hours in and probably going to split this into two podcasts but but here we are

00:54:34.180 --> 00:54:40.380
two hours into this i want to say i do not hate this episode it's the ramifications of this episode

00:54:41.160 --> 00:54:49.100
that i didn't it was you know on par with wild blue yonder it was yeah god no i enjoyed bits of

00:54:49.120 --> 00:54:57.800
But but all the mythos and the things that have just been those those will hurt for years to come.

00:54:58.500 --> 00:55:01.960
And so in the end, no, this was not a good episode of Doctor Who.

00:55:01.960 --> 00:55:05.240
It was not a good way to introduce that.

00:55:05.320 --> 00:55:08.440
Well, it was not a good way to send Tenet to the farm.

00:55:09.140 --> 00:55:12.540
It was to the pasture to enjoy grazing as an old man.

00:55:12.920 --> 00:55:17.520
Oh, I just I just had a terrible phrase in my mind.

00:55:17.620 --> 00:55:19.700
He's like, please tell me we haven't put him out the stud.

00:55:20.380 --> 00:55:22.060
Oh, no, no, no, no.

00:55:26.400 --> 00:55:30.520
I thought it was very tough on Gatwa

00:55:31.600 --> 00:55:36.420
because normally when you have your first moments as the Doctor,

00:55:36.760 --> 00:55:40.720
and it's only a few moments in the episode that you regenerate

00:55:40.740 --> 00:55:42.220
at the end of an episode, you have a few moments,

00:55:42.510 --> 00:55:45.380
maybe a line or two, but all eyes are on you.

00:55:46.300 --> 00:55:50.140
And I don't think it will.

00:55:50.760 --> 00:55:51.700
Here is Schneering Stage.

00:55:52.500 --> 00:55:52.980
Well, yeah.

00:55:53.240 --> 00:55:54.500
And actually your second fiddle,

00:55:54.580 --> 00:55:57.340
because the lead actor is the one who's been leading for the whole episode.

00:55:58.180 --> 00:56:00.820
I don't think it will affect him in the long term.

00:56:01.280 --> 00:56:05.720
I think I've already kind of taken to him as the doctor.

00:56:06.340 --> 00:56:07.700
I haven't rewatched the whole episode.

00:56:07.930 --> 00:56:11.760
What I did was I rewatched from the bi-generation onwards

00:56:12.590 --> 00:56:15.860
because I wanted to focus entirely on his performance.

00:56:15.920 --> 00:56:23.540
for that part of it and i i think he's great i have obviously watched the trailer for the

00:56:23.660 --> 00:56:29.840
christmas episode and i think the line delivery in that is phenomenal i'm really looking forward

00:56:30.020 --> 00:56:36.560
seeing him lead i do have one comment i mean i said it online i'll say it here it's like oh

00:56:36.780 --> 00:56:44.500
honey could your performance be any more camp no i mean i i think he's but that but that but you

00:56:44.520 --> 00:56:53.020
know that is the that is rtd and rtd's doctor that is rtd that's true i don't uh i don't mind

00:56:53.220 --> 00:56:58.320
leaning into those if that's the strength then hey go for it i mean it's not like the doctor

00:56:58.600 --> 00:57:06.680
hasn't been extremely calm please stop the honey the love i i i detest those phrases anyway

00:57:08.920 --> 00:57:17.820
uh lovey lovey like all of those things it's so affected i i don't it doesn't feel affected to me

00:57:18.360 --> 00:57:22.360
i think there's something i don't know i don't know it's one it's one of these things

00:57:23.140 --> 00:57:28.840
again you know just in terms of how special regenerations are we did a whole series of

00:57:29.450 --> 00:57:36.880
um fusion patrol podcast episodes on the first post-regeneration episode for every doctor up

00:57:36.900 --> 00:57:38.880
to I don't think we did Peter Capaldi onwards.

00:57:39.960 --> 00:57:41.520
Well, we did the episodes, so yeah.

00:57:42.480 --> 00:57:43.640
Well, we did the episodes.

00:57:43.800 --> 00:57:46.460
All we were looking at was, because, again,

00:57:46.860 --> 00:57:47.880
how special the regeneration is.

00:57:47.880 --> 00:57:48.700
Retroactively, yeah.

00:57:48.960 --> 00:57:49.260
That's true.

00:57:49.440 --> 00:57:51.860
But it was looking back at the Doctor's era

00:57:51.930 --> 00:57:55.020
and seeing how did their initial performance

00:57:56.280 --> 00:57:59.520
actually foreshadow the way they play the Doctor

00:57:59.650 --> 00:58:03.480
and the kind of tone and style of their performance

00:58:04.360 --> 00:58:04.980
throughout their run.

00:58:05.600 --> 00:58:09.340
It'll be interesting to see how that works out for Gatwa.

00:58:09.760 --> 00:58:11.700
It's also a question for me.

00:58:11.820 --> 00:58:15.540
We always looked at the first episode in which they were the Doctor in,

00:58:16.520 --> 00:58:19.820
and you discount the one in which they regenerated.

00:58:19.830 --> 00:58:21.820
But I don't know if you can discount it this time,

00:58:22.550 --> 00:58:26.880
because this isn't just a one-line thing.

00:58:27.620 --> 00:58:30.680
This isn't just a kind of, oh, new teeth,

00:58:31.240 --> 00:58:33.800
or you seem a very opinionated woman.

00:58:34.030 --> 00:58:34.740
I know, Carson, no, no.

00:58:35.400 --> 00:58:35.960
Yeah, exactly.

00:58:36.340 --> 00:58:36.440
Yeah.

00:58:36.680 --> 00:58:40.500
It's actually his proper first 20 minutes.

00:58:41.560 --> 00:58:45.000
But I also feel like we can't really judge him on this.

00:58:45.780 --> 00:58:46.380
But I already am.

00:58:47.160 --> 00:58:48.380
And I don't think we can, frankly,

00:58:48.680 --> 00:58:50.920
we're not going to be able to judge him on a Christmas special either.

00:58:51.640 --> 00:58:52.100
Maybe not.

00:58:52.620 --> 00:58:53.000
Maybe not.

00:58:53.860 --> 00:58:54.660
But I don't know.

00:58:54.780 --> 00:58:55.140
Bring it on.

00:58:55.140 --> 00:58:58.240
I'm glad given how I feel about this episode,

00:58:58.300 --> 00:59:01.360
we don't have to wait much more than two weeks.

00:59:02.400 --> 00:59:03.640
Do you have anything else?

00:59:04.360 --> 00:59:07.120
I've got a couple of production things, very, very brief things.

00:59:07.780 --> 00:59:09.920
One of which is the big letters at the end.

00:59:10.580 --> 00:59:13.040
That's a very RTD thing, but we got rid of those.

00:59:13.420 --> 00:59:14.840
Don't like it. Never mind.

00:59:16.180 --> 00:59:22.100
And the music again, I was kind of talking about having Murray Gold back in the past two episodes.

00:59:23.160 --> 00:59:30.320
And this time, I thought Wild Blue Yonder was kind of quite different and I liked it.

00:59:30.360 --> 00:59:33.340
At this time, it sort of felt a bit different for Doctor Who,

00:59:33.500 --> 00:59:36.700
but it also sounded exactly like his score for years and years,

00:59:36.880 --> 00:59:43.260
which was kind of maybe tying into the themes around the way

00:59:43.320 --> 00:59:47.700
in which the population were behaving and thinking they were right about everything.

00:59:48.460 --> 00:59:52.900
But I did like his 15th Doctor theme.

00:59:53.160 --> 00:59:55.660
I'm assuming we're going to hear that quite a lot, so it's a good thing.

00:59:56.100 --> 01:00:00.140
I didn't pick it up until I listened to the commentary.

01:00:00.800 --> 01:00:02.040
and I say oh you can hear the

01:00:03.100 --> 01:00:04.660
shooties theme I think is actually what

01:00:04.800 --> 01:00:05.500
RTD called it

01:00:06.840 --> 01:00:08.560
there at the end

01:00:09.380 --> 01:00:10.560
and so when I

01:00:10.760 --> 01:00:12.500
watched it again after listening to the

01:00:12.740 --> 01:00:14.540
commentary I did hear

01:00:14.660 --> 01:00:16.760
it and what I hear

01:00:16.960 --> 01:00:18.840
is a remix of I am the doctor

01:00:19.440 --> 01:00:20.880
I don't think it's I am the doctor

01:00:21.620 --> 01:00:22.640
listen to it again

01:00:23.280 --> 01:00:24.780
that might it's missing a few

01:00:24.980 --> 01:00:26.600
notes here and there it's not

01:00:27.160 --> 01:00:28.280
it's not exact

01:00:28.300 --> 01:00:34.580
but it's it's a retread right now just not necessarily in the right order it's a retread

01:00:35.160 --> 01:00:42.640
of it with different instrumentation and some changes to the it's like harmony it's the same

01:00:42.690 --> 01:00:48.040
tune but it's different it's it's yeah it i'm not saying i like it better than the doctor i'm saying

01:00:48.050 --> 01:00:56.580
it's different than i like it uh yeah retread hopefully it'll it'll maybe it'll grow on me

01:00:56.720 --> 01:00:57.820
I didn't dislike it.

01:00:57.840 --> 01:00:58.400
I just like,

01:00:58.680 --> 01:00:58.800
yeah,

01:00:59.020 --> 01:00:59.100
okay.

01:00:59.160 --> 01:00:59.640
I've heard it before.

01:01:00.380 --> 01:01:00.480
Just,

01:01:01.100 --> 01:01:03.700
it's like when my kids are on their keyboard and they,

01:01:03.860 --> 01:01:05.800
they never play anything twice the same,

01:01:05.960 --> 01:01:09.060
but you can change the instrument and then it's a whole different tune,

01:01:09.340 --> 01:01:10.080
even though it's not.

01:01:10.580 --> 01:01:10.900
All right.

01:01:10.980 --> 01:01:11.060
Well,

01:01:11.300 --> 01:01:11.520
the,

01:01:11.700 --> 01:01:13.180
the thing is it will be two weeks.

01:01:13.660 --> 01:01:17.560
This one will go out to our patrons just as fast as I can get it edited.

01:01:18.400 --> 01:01:19.680
It'll go out to our,

01:01:20.580 --> 01:01:21.760
let's see if you're hearing it now,

01:01:21.900 --> 01:01:24.720
it's going out to you on the 16th of December.

01:01:25.700 --> 01:01:25.800
Yay.

01:01:27.000 --> 01:01:28.180
I'm just going to say next week

01:01:28.260 --> 01:01:29.620
we'll be looking at The Underwater Menace

01:01:30.040 --> 01:01:32.000
how often can we get to say next week

01:01:32.180 --> 01:01:33.700
we're going to be listening to The Underwater Menace

01:01:34.420 --> 01:01:36.000
or indeed say what we're going to be listening to

01:01:36.020 --> 01:01:37.920
next week at any time with the listeners

01:01:38.240 --> 01:01:40.140
so anyway Simon thank you

01:01:40.140 --> 01:01:42.220
for joining me it's a pleasure as always

01:01:43.040 --> 01:01:43.520
and listeners

01:01:44.280 --> 01:01:45.960
I do hope you'll join us all again next time

01:01:46.540 --> 01:01:47.240
on Fusion Patrol

01:01:49.800 --> 01:01:50.320
you've been

01:01:50.560 --> 01:01:52.040
listening to Fusion Patrol

01:01:52.760 --> 01:01:53.460
thanks for listening

01:01:55.540 --> 01:01:58.720
if you've enjoyed this episode we hope you'll consider supporting us at

01:01:59.080 --> 01:02:05.900
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01:02:06.260 --> 01:02:13.300
subscribers we're currently running a special series on babylon 5 come join the conversation

01:02:13.720 --> 01:02:20.240
and find other content at fusion patrol.com and we're back on social media where you can also

01:02:20.260 --> 01:02:22.380
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01:02:23.100 --> 01:02:24.180
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01:02:24.420 --> 01:02:26.260
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01:02:26.390 --> 01:02:26.980
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01:02:29.480 --> 01:02:30.460
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01:02:30.700 --> 01:02:32.380
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01:02:35.160 --> 01:02:36.240
This has been a

01:02:36.380 --> 01:02:37.380
Lone Locust production.

01:02:42.640 --> 01:02:44.160
On the next episode of Fusion Patrol

01:02:44.380 --> 01:02:46.140
we will be looking at the 2023

01:02:46.980 --> 01:02:48.020
animated recreation

01:02:48.700 --> 01:02:49.760
of Doctor Who.

01:02:50.040 --> 01:02:54.740
the Underwater Menace. When we compare the differing reconstructions from this and the

01:02:54.800 --> 01:03:00.360
previous release, we discussed whether changes in the colour version of the animation contradict

01:03:00.460 --> 01:03:06.780
the dialogue, as well as the sexy fish people, and we argue over our favourite colour choice

01:03:07.180 --> 01:03:12.760
for the Doctor Who original titles. Come join the conversation on Fusion Patrol.

01:03:12.880 --> 01:03:13.000
control.