WEBVTT 00:00:08.120 --> 00:00:11.280 you're listening to fusion patrol a listener supported podcast 00:00:14.020 --> 00:00:18.440 each week we take a single episode of a science fiction tv series movie or 00:00:18.610 --> 00:00:24.980 audio and overanalyze it to within an inch of its life welcome to the discussion 00:00:31.180 --> 00:00:33.040 Hello and welcome to another episode of Fusion Patrol. 00:00:33.580 --> 00:00:33.860 I'm Eugene. 00:00:34.650 --> 00:00:35.340 And I'm Simon. 00:00:36.080 --> 00:00:41.780 And tonight we're looking at the third and final 60th anniversary Doctor Who special, 00:00:42.530 --> 00:00:45.260 The Giggle by Synopsis. 00:00:45.840 --> 00:00:49.560 In 1925, Charlie, assistant to John Logie Baird, 00:00:49.900 --> 00:00:53.360 enters a toy emporium where he meets the eccentric German proprietor. 00:00:53.980 --> 00:00:57.000 Charlie is in search of a toy doll for an experiment for his employer. 00:00:57.640 --> 00:01:00.860 He chooses Stookyville and returns to Baird's workshop. 00:01:01.600 --> 00:01:05.960 Using Stookyville's head as a test subject, Baird transmits the first television picture. 00:01:06.580 --> 00:01:10.220 As it catches fire, its mouth opens, and it laughs. 00:01:11.000 --> 00:01:15.100 In the present, the world is in chaos, and the Doctor and Donna are soon picked up by 00:01:15.300 --> 00:01:20.020 Unit, taken to their skyscraper headquarters, where the Doctor finds Melanie Bush, a former 00:01:20.200 --> 00:01:23.720 companion now working for Unit, and Kate Lethbridge-Stewart. 00:01:24.320 --> 00:01:28.980 they explain that two days ago the world went mad and at the same time the final worldwide 00:01:29.350 --> 00:01:34.500 connect everything satellite went live without a little gizmo on their arms every human except 00:01:34.800 --> 00:01:39.420 those who have traveled in the TARDIS believes they are right about everything and cannot be 00:01:39.420 --> 00:01:45.500 told otherwise it's true the planet has turned into one big online flame war except with planes 00:01:45.740 --> 00:01:51.200 trains automobiles guns and whatever else the doctor quickly identifies that the first television 00:01:51.220 --> 00:01:57.360 image ever transmitted is lodged within every screen in the world and it's causing all this 00:01:57.870 --> 00:02:03.100 the doctor authorizes unit to destroy the korean satellite while unit prepares to destroy the 00:02:03.360 --> 00:02:07.200 satellite the doctor and donna take the tardis back to the time of the first television transmission 00:02:07.660 --> 00:02:13.380 and they find the toy emporium the doctor soon realizes that the proprietor of the shop is none 00:02:13.490 --> 00:02:19.140 other than the eternal immortal toy maker who has been nursing a grudge since the first doctor 00:02:19.160 --> 00:02:24.600 defeated him at a game of logic. Corridors are traversed, and finally the doctor challenges the 00:02:24.700 --> 00:02:31.300 toy maker to a game. The game is cut cards. I-Card wins. The toy maker wins, but the doctor points 00:02:31.340 --> 00:02:37.480 out that they are even, and a win must be two out of three. The toy maker agrees that he'll do it 00:02:37.620 --> 00:02:44.040 back in 2023. Back in 2023, Unit destroys the satellite, and I'm not sure, but I think that 00:02:44.060 --> 00:02:49.560 saves the world from the giggle. However, not so much for the doctor. The Toymaker is here, 00:02:49.840 --> 00:02:56.280 and he's decided to play the third and final match against the next doctor. He fatally shoots the 00:02:56.380 --> 00:03:02.520 doctor, starting the regeneration process. Then magic happens, and the doctor splits in two. 00:03:03.060 --> 00:03:08.800 One old, one new, and they challenge the Toymaker to a game of catch, which the Toymaker loses. 00:03:09.360 --> 00:03:14.660 he is banished from reality for all eternity but now there are two doctors and with a little 00:03:14.840 --> 00:03:20.920 leftover toy maker magic there are now two tardises dr new heads out into the universe 00:03:21.320 --> 00:03:27.000 and the doctor stays behind to live with donna and her family to recover from the traumas of his life 00:03:27.520 --> 00:03:36.780 the end now not not very often but upon occasion we do exchange a little uh of our opinions on 00:03:36.800 --> 00:03:41.120 these episodes before but typically we don't but once in a while a little bit of it creeps through 00:03:41.260 --> 00:03:47.740 and in a case like doctor who uh big deal like this uh some of it creeps through um can be hard 00:03:47.740 --> 00:03:54.260 to can be hard to help myself sometimes yeah yeah i can understand that and i have avoided 00:03:54.780 --> 00:04:01.880 as much as humanly possible all online opinions podcasts i have seen a few toots here and there 00:04:01.900 --> 00:04:09.760 with people talking about how amazing this was amazing i say it's the most amazing oh my gosh 00:04:10.160 --> 00:04:17.359 russell d davies is god himself he's so fantastic it's amazing oh it's wonderful i love it not my 00:04:17.540 --> 00:04:24.560 opinion um but uh but seems to be what i've seen so far which is a bad sign for people who might 00:04:24.640 --> 00:04:30.880 be nursing that opinion when they come to this podcast so simon what did you think of the giggle 00:04:30.900 --> 00:04:46.460 I'm very cautious about being one of those people who pour cold water on the joy that an episode can bring to those people to whom it has brought joy. 00:04:47.710 --> 00:04:59.820 And I had quite an emotional response to this one, which I haven't had for really quite a while to a Doctor Who episode. 00:04:59.920 --> 00:05:05.840 and it has made me think about the kind of it i mean the fact that there are people who like 00:05:06.440 --> 00:05:10.560 like some episodes and don't like other episodes and just like certain eras of the show and don't 00:05:10.560 --> 00:05:15.940 like certainly none of that is is new you know there are people who for whatever peculiar 00:05:16.580 --> 00:05:21.820 reason you know some sort of childhood trauma or something don't like stephen moffat's era of 00:05:21.990 --> 00:05:27.539 doctor who i get that you're gonna say sylvester mccoy's but okay yeah yeah well sylvester mccoy 00:05:27.560 --> 00:05:33.540 So, you know, it's the same thing for everyone who loves Russell T Davies and hates Chris Chibnall. 00:05:33.540 --> 00:05:39.900 There are people who love Chris Chibnall and hate Stephen Moffat or, you know, whatever it may be. 00:05:41.040 --> 00:05:51.440 So I think throughout the kind of, well, let's say the Capaldi and Whittaker runs of the show, 00:05:51.900 --> 00:05:59.440 I've kind of not had that kind of real sense of feeling disappointed 00:05:59.840 --> 00:06:03.660 or feeling like something deeply important about the show 00:06:03.860 --> 00:06:05.420 has been messed about with. 00:06:05.830 --> 00:06:10.160 And I think I did have that quite a lot, actually, 00:06:10.720 --> 00:06:12.720 with Russell T Davies in his original run. 00:06:12.720 --> 00:06:16.740 And, you know, the passage of time has dulled the pain with some of it. 00:06:17.360 --> 00:06:18.640 And I had it again. 00:06:18.860 --> 00:06:20.700 You know, Stephen Moffat is not perfect. 00:06:21.120 --> 00:06:41.660 I definitely remember the last time I was really kind of feeling angry having watched a Doctor Who episode was after Death in Heaven, where Moffat brought back the Brigadier in a way that I thought was kind of deeply disrespectful and unpleasant and kind of taint rewatching that. 00:06:41.730 --> 00:06:43.240 So that was actually Capaldi, wasn't it? 00:06:43.240 --> 00:06:45.820 I was saying Capaldi run was fine. 00:06:46.720 --> 00:06:47.520 It's odd. 00:06:47.530 --> 00:06:48.960 You know that was meant to be respectful. 00:06:49.800 --> 00:06:59.560 I know Moffat did that tend to be respectful. And yet some people vehemently see that as just a destruction of his memory. 00:07:00.080 --> 00:07:02.980 And, you know, that's the kind of thing about these things. 00:07:03.380 --> 00:07:08.000 It's these, all of the kind of people involved in production, 00:07:08.320 --> 00:07:14.160 the number of stages anything goes through to get signed off, 00:07:14.360 --> 00:07:17.500 because it's not actually all down to Russell T. Davis. 00:07:17.760 --> 00:07:21.800 There are umpteen other people involved in the process. 00:07:22.200 --> 00:07:27.240 You know, I mean, there is a script editor and there are multiple producers. 00:07:28.560 --> 00:07:38.280 And I think, you know, certainly with David Tennant here, you've got him having some kind of creative input into the show. 00:07:39.140 --> 00:07:46.060 And they all think that what I'm going to get the spoiler right. 00:07:46.280 --> 00:07:50.180 The spoiler here is that my problem is with particular problem with this is the regeneration. 00:07:50.380 --> 00:07:55.020 It wasn't episode I love, but the regeneration really pushed my buttons. 00:07:55.720 --> 00:08:04.060 And it's not a regeneration, obviously a bi-generation, but it went through all of these kind of creatives who all thought that it was great. 00:08:04.980 --> 00:08:07.960 And as you say, the reaction online is this is terrific. 00:08:08.260 --> 00:08:09.520 And so it's not like this is wrong. 00:08:09.720 --> 00:08:19.480 I would have, if I'd been in any of those meetings in some kind of parallel universe where I was some sort of TV executive, I'd have been going, oh, my God, you can't possibly do this. 00:08:19.620 --> 00:08:20.460 People will hate it. 00:08:20.700 --> 00:08:21.760 People didn't hate it. 00:08:22.280 --> 00:08:24.260 My judgment about that is completely wrong. 00:08:24.900 --> 00:08:29.100 Wait, there may still be people out there who hate it. I just haven't gone looking for them yet. 00:08:29.100 --> 00:08:47.060 Well, of course there are. Of course there are people out there who hate it. And, you know, anything to do with Doctor Who, and indeed anything about what regeneration actually is and what it means, there are going to be as many different interpretations of that question as there are Doctor Who fans out there. 00:08:47.620 --> 00:09:00.620 So I guess in a way what this has forced me to do is to consider what it is about regeneration that is so important to me and why I don't want it messed around with. 00:09:00.980 --> 00:09:14.160 And I think it's because one thing that is really key to when I watch any Doctor Who is the sense that the Doctor is the same person whenever you're. 00:09:14.700 --> 00:09:22.700 And this has been kind of diluted a bit, the idea that really what you're getting here is someone. 00:09:23.580 --> 00:09:29.740 I didn't say someone new because, you know, even Mel's lying in this to know who you're going to be, but it's going to be someone fantastic. 00:09:29.910 --> 00:09:35.340 And it's like someone is going to occupy a point in the Doctor's space time continuum. 00:09:35.580 --> 00:09:38.280 Even that's not simple because he's a time traveler. 00:09:39.040 --> 00:09:42.280 And so what that means is difficult. 00:09:42.340 --> 00:09:49.480 But I guess, you know, fundamentally, the point about identity has to do with memory. 00:09:50.090 --> 00:09:58.640 And the Doctor keeps a set of memories, even through regeneration, apart from, you know, Paul McGann's Doctor. 00:09:58.650 --> 00:09:59.820 And even then they came back. 00:10:00.640 --> 00:10:09.380 And the personality changes are, it's, I feel in a way that, and I like the personality. 00:10:09.450 --> 00:10:11.200 I like the fact the Doctor changes. 00:10:11.820 --> 00:10:16.600 It's still the same person and it's a different personality, but it's not a completely different personality. 00:10:16.900 --> 00:10:23.800 It's a different set of characteristics coming to the fore that are all there in some sense. 00:10:24.400 --> 00:10:25.320 It's a different desktop. 00:10:26.140 --> 00:10:28.280 I think, well, yes, in a sense it is. 00:10:28.460 --> 00:10:35.920 But in a sense, it's also reflecting the fact that if I were to kind of examine my own core beliefs about identity 00:10:36.220 --> 00:10:40.919 and kind of leaving all of the kind of intellectual philosophical arguments that I studied at the university 00:10:40.940 --> 00:10:44.400 and just kind of going, what do I actually instinctively believe? 00:10:44.520 --> 00:10:48.400 I think it has partly to do with memory being a kind of massive force in it. 00:10:48.720 --> 00:10:55.460 And it has partly to do with biology in the sense that the body with which we inhabit 00:10:55.820 --> 00:10:58.860 has such a huge effect on things like our mood. 00:10:59.100 --> 00:11:04.600 I mean, if you just think about how different I am when I'm hungry compared to when I've been fed, 00:11:05.300 --> 00:11:18.440 I think, you know, and for people who experience chronic pain or I mean, we know all this stuff from people who experience brain damage or whatever, that huge personality changes can take effect. 00:11:18.560 --> 00:11:21.740 And the doctor has this complete cellular regeneration. 00:11:22.080 --> 00:11:23.520 So all of that's kind of fine. 00:11:24.000 --> 00:11:29.040 And I've kind of arrived at my understanding of what regeneration means. 00:11:29.140 --> 00:11:31.220 But this is still the same doctor, right? 00:11:31.380 --> 00:11:33.260 All the way through, this is still the same doctor. 00:11:33.840 --> 00:11:44.040 And the problem that we've got here is that instead of there being a kind of linear, this is the same Doctor, we've now got the same Doctor. 00:11:45.280 --> 00:11:50.320 And it's not the same as when the Doctor time travels and you've got two Doctors in the same place. 00:11:50.440 --> 00:11:52.480 It's the Doctor's own timeline. 00:11:53.400 --> 00:11:53.780 Timeline. 00:11:54.080 --> 00:12:03.620 And whatever happens to David Tennant's Doctor now, Shuti Gatwa's Doctor is not going to remember because they have diverged. 00:12:04.120 --> 00:12:09.640 okay oh and i don't know how i feel about that i have questions i do know how i feel about that 00:12:09.830 --> 00:12:13.780 i don't know how i'm going to feel about it right i don't like it i feel like it at all 00:12:15.279 --> 00:12:22.400 okay so here is the weirdy part okay if you look at this in any let's come back to our rtd mantra 00:12:22.960 --> 00:12:29.339 don't think but if you think about this for a second can david tennett's doctor regenerate 00:12:29.640 --> 00:12:38.140 Now, will there be a different next doctor if he gets hit by a car while he's shopping with Donna? 00:12:38.700 --> 00:12:39.820 I don't know. 00:12:40.560 --> 00:12:50.160 Are we got another line or did he expend all his regenerative power and it's gone off into Shooty's doctor and now Tenet is the end of the line? 00:12:50.560 --> 00:12:52.460 They will grow old and die or whatever. 00:12:52.540 --> 00:12:58.340 I don't know, but they say in this episode, 00:12:59.380 --> 00:13:03.620 Shooty says, I'm me because I'm okay 00:13:04.500 --> 00:13:07.580 because you took the time to get healed, 00:13:08.120 --> 00:13:14.220 which more than implies that Shooty is still a future incarnation of David Tennant, 00:13:14.780 --> 00:13:18.260 which is don't think or you will hurt yourself. 00:13:19.880 --> 00:13:24.920 Well, your comments about what you're livid about is interesting. 00:13:25.770 --> 00:13:27.000 And I mean that in a serious way. 00:13:27.040 --> 00:13:28.460 I'm not trying to diminish it. 00:13:29.180 --> 00:13:45.140 But immediately after the episode, which is what I know you had our first conversation, what you were upset about was once again getting a companion, getting their own little bespoke doctor to take, like Rose did. 00:13:45.600 --> 00:13:47.300 I mean, when the comparison was there to that. 00:13:48.120 --> 00:13:49.420 That sounded like what you were talking about. 00:13:49.700 --> 00:13:56.960 they've pulled the same ending again i that's that's kind of not my issue i don't i don't mind 00:13:57.580 --> 00:14:04.760 i don't mind what the doctor does now i know just the fact that rtd has to do that to give them a 00:14:05.440 --> 00:14:10.260 happy kind of i think i can't leave rose without a consolation prize so she gets her what what was 00:14:10.300 --> 00:14:16.779 the term you used for that one paper cut out doctor yeah i mean the so there is there is the 00:14:16.800 --> 00:14:22.180 fact that russell t davis has done this before in journey's end he did it slightly differently 00:14:23.200 --> 00:14:31.180 but in effect he took took a regeneration and he used it to create duplicate doctor but in that 00:14:31.200 --> 00:14:37.460 case he did explicitly say this doctor cannot regenerate and he did it so that rose wouldn't 00:14:38.000 --> 00:14:42.279 rose would have a doctor i don't think i don't think that's what he was doing here i don't think 00:14:42.300 --> 00:14:50.040 he was i don't think donna was incomplete without the doctor i think no i i no no it's just you know 00:14:50.560 --> 00:14:55.200 it's that idea that we don't want to kill the doctor we don't want the 10th doctor to 00:14:55.790 --> 00:15:01.080 to be gone he has to continue on and like so i think that i think that was more to do with 00:15:01.580 --> 00:15:06.980 not wanting to kind of sever the viewer's emotional connection with this incarnation 00:15:07.330 --> 00:15:12.260 of the doctor and it's not this incarnation of the doctor to be honest it's david tennant 00:15:12.280 --> 00:15:18.860 playing the doctor because for the same reason i dislike i dislike this i dislike naming the doctors 00:15:19.340 --> 00:15:24.320 as the 14th doctor or whatever because it's not the 14th doctor the doctor it's the first doctor 00:15:24.540 --> 00:15:32.460 right or in your your um theory of what's gone on it's well that is the first doctor now that is the 00:15:32.580 --> 00:15:38.740 doctor and second the second doctor but it is the doctor but what we what we are calling the 14th 00:15:38.780 --> 00:15:44.260 doctor or the 14th incarnation of the doctor is different from is supposed to be different from 00:15:44.310 --> 00:15:50.520 the 10th incarnation of the doctor which is also plagued by david tenant but what rtd is trying to 00:15:50.800 --> 00:15:59.320 avoid is people feeling like david tenant's version of the doctor has gone away the the reason i think 00:15:59.400 --> 00:16:05.500 that's kind of self-defeating is that and again i'm wrong everyone else loves this episode fine 00:16:05.840 --> 00:16:16.140 But the thing that surprises me, OK, is that I think that regeneration does actually serve a kind of purpose here in the sense of it brings closure. 00:16:16.490 --> 00:16:21.200 The reality is David Tennant's incarnation of the Doctor has gone away. 00:16:21.490 --> 00:16:33.180 For all the speculation there is online about this being a setup for a spin off with the Doctor and Donna, you know, stranded on Earth or whatever, that's not going to happen. 00:16:33.340 --> 00:16:40.080 right david tenon has left the show again and all those people who love that incarnation of the 00:16:40.280 --> 00:16:47.040 are not going to be watching him continue his adventures do you remember uh sorry do you do 00:16:47.200 --> 00:16:54.520 remember we had a talk a little while ago uh about when they made the paul mcgann movie that they 00:16:54.840 --> 00:17:01.120 wanted to get tom baker to come in to do the regeneration instead of celester mccoy it's 00:17:01.140 --> 00:17:06.100 Because the audiences love Tom Baker, right? 00:17:06.439 --> 00:17:10.120 That's Tom Baker was at that time, iconically the doctor. 00:17:10.380 --> 00:17:12.520 It's, you know, so sorry, everybody else. 00:17:13.300 --> 00:17:18.620 But for particularly in America, Tom Baker was the doctor. 00:17:19.539 --> 00:17:24.579 And that would have been a big boost for them to get him in even for a bit. 00:17:24.850 --> 00:17:28.360 If they could have got him in to play the doctor in the movie, that would have been even better. 00:17:28.920 --> 00:17:32.900 And I just do feel like Disney might be trying to hedge their bets here. 00:17:33.580 --> 00:17:34.580 You know, you get a movie. 00:17:35.260 --> 00:17:37.080 They've always wanted Doctor Who movies. 00:17:37.360 --> 00:17:42.760 They could actually have David Tennant legitimately in it as the Doctor. 00:17:43.520 --> 00:17:53.520 And that would be far better than, to them, from an economic standpoint, than any other possible combination or thing that they could do. 00:17:53.600 --> 00:17:54.600 Because Tom Baker is too old. 00:17:55.060 --> 00:17:56.620 And that time has passed. 00:17:57.060 --> 00:18:03.560 Now David Tennant is, you know, kind of that apex doctor model. 00:18:03.890 --> 00:18:09.440 May not be my favorite, but, you know, from the pop culture thing, that's kind of the thing. 00:18:09.700 --> 00:18:12.340 So, you know, I'm not saying we won't. 00:18:12.430 --> 00:18:13.800 That's nice theory, but it's not. 00:18:14.390 --> 00:18:14.980 We will not. 00:18:15.320 --> 00:18:15.760 We will not. 00:18:16.120 --> 00:18:16.220 Okay? 00:18:16.520 --> 00:18:26.500 I don't think we are going to see David Tennant play the doctor again until, you know, we get the 75th anniversary or whatever it is and we get him playing. 00:18:27.200 --> 00:18:37.020 the curator and you know that maybe he regenerates into the curator david tennant has left doctor who 00:18:37.200 --> 00:18:43.640 because he wanted to do other things and the reason he's come back to doctor who now is because it was 00:18:43.900 --> 00:18:49.220 just three episodes he's not going to start doing a movie series or whatever i just think 00:18:49.710 --> 00:18:56.580 that is not going to happen and 50 million pounds salary that's not part of the consideration 00:18:56.620 --> 00:19:02.380 around why no i mean i think if he'd been willing to come back and play the doctor they would have 00:19:02.460 --> 00:19:07.980 carried on having him you know they'd have had it they'd have had him for what i'm calling season 00:19:08.200 --> 00:19:16.540 40 what might be season 14 or one or whatever they they would they they'd have brought him back for 00:19:16.620 --> 00:19:22.820 that but that's you know he's he's done that he's not doing that again i don't think that is 00:19:22.840 --> 00:19:29.160 happening and i think that you couldn't get leonard nimoy back for a series of star trek but you could 00:19:29.160 --> 00:19:35.100 get leonard nimoy back for a big budget movie and a fat fat paycheck it's less time it's less 00:19:35.380 --> 00:19:42.420 commitment and it's a lot lot more money i don't think that is part of the reason that russell t 00:19:42.560 --> 00:19:49.340 davis has done this i think the reason he has done it is because he thinks that it's unhappy 00:19:49.360 --> 00:19:53.480 to have Tenant's doctor die. 00:19:54.260 --> 00:19:57.220 Yes, but you can have more than one purpose 00:19:57.520 --> 00:19:59.360 in your mind when you're doing something. 00:20:00.140 --> 00:20:02.000 You can have more than one position. 00:20:02.740 --> 00:20:03.360 It's not binary. 00:20:03.800 --> 00:20:04.920 It doesn't have to be binary. 00:20:05.100 --> 00:20:06.820 I'm doing this because I either want a happy ending 00:20:06.880 --> 00:20:07.860 or I want a sad ending. 00:20:08.380 --> 00:20:10.400 It can be the universe is not that. 00:20:10.980 --> 00:20:14.840 I'm sure I've heard those words somewhere very recently. 00:20:15.100 --> 00:20:16.460 The universe is not binary. 00:20:17.380 --> 00:20:20.720 And I'm absolutely sure he just wants to have a happy ending. 00:20:20.820 --> 00:20:22.540 He wants all the doctors to have a happy ending. 00:20:22.700 --> 00:20:24.160 He said so as much in the commentary. 00:20:24.630 --> 00:20:25.920 He doesn't want them to die. 00:20:27.460 --> 00:20:28.300 He said that. 00:20:29.380 --> 00:20:43.300 And he said that, you know, this is not the idea that he's leaving the door open for a movie or whatever is, I mean, it doesn't fit with anything we've had or seen anything about anywhere else. 00:20:43.680 --> 00:20:49.420 But we have absolutely, we know from, as you say, the commentary that this is the reason that he did this here. 00:20:49.640 --> 00:21:01.540 It's also the reason that he did not want to kill off any of the companions because he has this view that, you know, when you kill a companion. 00:21:01.640 --> 00:21:10.980 And he was critical in the episode of what Moffat did to Amy Pond and to Clara and to Bill. 00:21:11.340 --> 00:21:15.000 He doesn't like the episodes where they die. 00:21:15.000 --> 00:21:18.680 And he seems to have extended that even to regeneration. 00:21:19.530 --> 00:21:29.120 And I think that's a problem because I think he's trying to give the audience this happy experience. 00:21:29.250 --> 00:21:37.680 But I think he's denying them the closure of when their favorite actor playing the Doctor goes away. 00:21:38.500 --> 00:21:43.560 And seeing that, seeing that, the kind of moment in which they transform. 00:21:44.200 --> 00:21:49.540 And I also think he's creating a problem for the new actor. 00:21:49.720 --> 00:22:06.640 And I don't think, I don't think he's alone in thinking it's a difficult thing for audiences to take to the new actor because the, you know, the previous one has had to die in order for them to take their place. 00:22:07.460 --> 00:22:11.120 because in a way that was what we saw Moffat dancing around in Deep Breath, 00:22:11.360 --> 00:22:20.940 where he has Matt Smith appear and give what is basically a kind of fourth wall breaking appeal to Matt Smith fans to give Capaldi a chance. 00:22:21.050 --> 00:22:24.600 I mean, that's what Clara is a proxy for in that scene. 00:22:25.320 --> 00:22:33.900 But by doing what he's done here and just allowing Tennant's Doctor to continue, he's not actually even steering the fans down that road. 00:22:34.200 --> 00:22:48.660 I think he's giving, I think he's giving Shuti Gatwa a difficult time because he has to spend his first 20 minutes as a doc, as the doctor playing second fiddle when he should be the pretender, the, the absolute lead in those scenes. 00:22:49.320 --> 00:22:53.380 Although I don't think Gat was going to have a problem with that based on how fantastic he was. 00:22:54.120 --> 00:23:11.540 But I think those things are, it makes it all problematic in terms of just the kind of the real world function that regeneration is supposed to provide in terms of stewarding the audience through a change of doctor. 00:23:12.280 --> 00:23:13.680 and I also think there's an in-world 00:23:14.300 --> 00:23:16.080 problem with it which quite 00:23:16.420 --> 00:23:18.080 simply is regeneration 00:23:18.270 --> 00:23:19.820 is supposed to deal with 00:23:20.290 --> 00:23:21.160 the Doctor dying 00:23:21.980 --> 00:23:23.780 it's a consequence of the Doctor dying 00:23:24.380 --> 00:23:26.080 but actually what happens here is there 00:23:26.160 --> 00:23:27.760 is no consequence of the Doctor dying 00:23:27.760 --> 00:23:30.220 the Doctor being killed in this case 00:23:30.820 --> 00:23:31.480 means the Doctor 00:23:32.220 --> 00:23:34.220 survives and as a bonus 00:23:35.060 --> 00:23:35.500 kind of 00:23:35.980 --> 00:23:37.640 spawns an additional Doctor 00:23:38.220 --> 00:23:40.060 so yeah what the hell 00:23:40.160 --> 00:23:41.080 was the drawback there? 00:23:41.160 --> 00:23:43.120 I don't think this is a good idea. 00:23:44.720 --> 00:23:46.940 You know, if we never see David Tennant again, 00:23:47.720 --> 00:23:51.500 I will always think of Shuri Gatwa as a different doctor. 00:23:52.460 --> 00:23:56.220 And I don't, you know, so, okay, let me, 00:23:56.860 --> 00:23:59.200 well, we have so far off talking about the episode 00:23:59.500 --> 00:24:01.620 and to the ramifications, but that's, you know, 00:24:01.920 --> 00:24:02.600 hardly surprising. 00:24:03.280 --> 00:24:04.320 I was thinking about this. 00:24:04.600 --> 00:24:06.660 This is not, call it a bi-generation, 00:24:07.080 --> 00:24:08.380 and there are some distinctions, 00:24:08.460 --> 00:24:10.320 but this is actually asexual reproduction. 00:24:11.020 --> 00:24:12.340 The doctor has split into two. 00:24:12.960 --> 00:24:13.740 There are now two doctors. 00:24:14.320 --> 00:24:21.980 The Toymaker actually, Toymaker makes it sound like if he kills one of them, they too will now split in two. 00:24:22.720 --> 00:24:24.500 Because that's what he's contemplating. 00:24:24.540 --> 00:24:27.600 It's like, oh, I'll just keep killing you and you'll split into two and then there'll be more of you to kill. 00:24:29.639 --> 00:24:35.540 Which is like, let's get a new showrunner before we change doctors again. 00:24:37.200 --> 00:24:38.320 Well, they tried to stop him. 00:24:38.480 --> 00:24:41.100 We tried to stop him, which is like, well, why would you do that? 00:24:41.620 --> 00:24:42.640 Why would you try to stop him? 00:24:42.700 --> 00:24:44.360 You're just going to shoot me again. 00:24:44.560 --> 00:24:44.720 Yeah. 00:24:44.740 --> 00:24:45.120 Yeah. 00:24:45.600 --> 00:24:45.680 Yeah. 00:24:46.120 --> 00:24:46.800 Where's the drawback? 00:24:46.850 --> 00:24:47.480 Just get another one here. 00:24:48.540 --> 00:24:54.760 But so, but if you think about it, this is a question that comes up, has come up somewhere 00:24:54.980 --> 00:24:56.140 in the ages. 00:24:56.290 --> 00:25:00.520 And I think I even peaked at the first sentence of a summary of Wikipedia. 00:25:00.800 --> 00:25:02.120 And this is, oh yeah, this is something. 00:25:02.450 --> 00:25:06.660 I think if you have an amoeba, an amoeba, how long does an amoeba live? 00:25:07.260 --> 00:25:07.320 Right. 00:25:07.480 --> 00:25:11.180 They go about two days before they split into two identical amoebas. 00:25:11.980 --> 00:25:13.320 Is the amoeba still alive? 00:25:13.840 --> 00:25:15.000 Is it two new amoebas? 00:25:17.400 --> 00:25:21.420 Is an amoeba immortal until someone squashes it or burns it in a lab or something? 00:25:21.980 --> 00:25:22.440 I don't know. 00:25:23.039 --> 00:25:24.700 But it's definitely two amoebas. 00:25:25.480 --> 00:25:26.900 And they go off and do different things. 00:25:26.940 --> 00:25:29.280 They don't have memories, but they have different experiences. 00:25:29.480 --> 00:25:33.780 One might get fatter and the other one might get skinnier if they go down the wrong food path, whatever. 00:25:34.300 --> 00:25:40.560 But they are the, you know, they will start having different amoeba experiences from the moment they split. 00:25:41.200 --> 00:25:44.580 And they are two different amoeba, but they are the same amoeba. 00:25:45.040 --> 00:25:48.600 And, you know, that's a mind bender. 00:25:48.650 --> 00:25:50.540 I don't know how you would consider that. 00:25:50.550 --> 00:25:53.780 Is that one continuous life or is that an end in two new lives? 00:25:54.440 --> 00:25:54.840 I don't know. 00:25:55.230 --> 00:25:55.820 I really don't. 00:25:56.060 --> 00:26:15.820 It does kind of raise the question whether in the terminology of 14th Doctor, 15th Doctor stuff is whether the character that David Tennant is playing post by generation is 15A and Schutte is 15B, as it were. 00:26:16.200 --> 00:26:22.520 Or, you know, Tennant is 15 and Schutte is one beta. 00:26:23.060 --> 00:26:29.420 Well, I don't know why you're making a difference there. They're both... How do you choose which of you are me? 00:26:29.720 --> 00:26:36.280 One has the continuity of identity that you yourself described earlier. It is both your memories and your physicality. 00:26:36.900 --> 00:26:41.480 But they both have that physical continuity because they are... 00:26:41.480 --> 00:26:44.100 The knot. Shooty's completely different physically. 00:26:44.840 --> 00:26:50.640 You were talking about, oh, I'm different when I'm hungry, but I live a different life because I'm tall and my wife is short. 00:26:50.860 --> 00:26:54.580 If you put, if I was in a short body, I would have a different identity. 00:26:55.400 --> 00:26:57.480 I was not clear enough. 00:26:57.800 --> 00:26:59.920 What I'm talking about is physical continuity. 00:27:00.220 --> 00:27:10.520 You're occupying, again, you've got to be careful because time traveler, but occupying the same physical space in effect. 00:27:11.599 --> 00:27:14.380 It's this thing that you don't have with humans. 00:27:14.600 --> 00:27:24.240 We all actually physically are completely changed because, you know, pretty much every cell is new if you wait long enough. 00:27:24.240 --> 00:27:25.700 I think it's seven years or something. 00:27:25.870 --> 00:27:26.980 You mean we're regenerating? 00:27:27.480 --> 00:27:29.240 We're regenerating slowly. 00:27:29.460 --> 00:27:45.840 But the point I was making is not that there's a physical difference or that in some way, because I think you're trying to make the point that Schutte's doctor is, he is not as much the doctor because he's changed. 00:27:45.890 --> 00:27:54.720 But then, you know, that would be the argument for saying that Whitaker's doctor is not as much, you know, she was different from Capaldi, right? 00:27:54.920 --> 00:27:59.260 But what I'm trying to argue is that she is the same as Capaldi. 00:27:59.540 --> 00:28:06.940 And the doctor that Tennant was playing at the beginning of this episode was the same as Whitaker's doctor because they'd been in the same space. 00:28:07.400 --> 00:28:20.680 And now they have both emerged from the same physical through line because during the regeneration, they actually split. 00:28:20.840 --> 00:28:28.200 So there was one doctor at the beginning, and now there are two doctors who have both, you know, followed on. 00:28:28.240 --> 00:28:35.940 And in a sense, Schutte is the true continuation because he's the what you would expect that there would be a complete change. 00:28:37.719 --> 00:28:45.200 And David Tennant is at this point more like the kind of discarded skin of a snake. 00:28:46.060 --> 00:28:47.920 Yeah, no, I'm not going to go with that. 00:28:48.940 --> 00:28:53.380 Capaldi and Whitaker are two different beings, and they are also the same. 00:28:54.180 --> 00:28:57.140 That is, they are a continuation of the same being. 00:28:57.320 --> 00:28:58.620 They are, but they are. 00:28:58.780 --> 00:28:59.040 Why? 00:28:59.600 --> 00:29:01.620 They are different, because they are different. 00:29:01.830 --> 00:29:03.200 They are physically different. 00:29:03.290 --> 00:29:04.280 They are mentally different. 00:29:05.020 --> 00:29:05.440 They are. 00:29:05.440 --> 00:29:06.120 Why are they the same? 00:29:06.740 --> 00:29:13.620 They are the same because they are temporally and physically connected through linear function. 00:29:14.700 --> 00:29:16.580 Our cells regenerate slowly. 00:29:16.620 --> 00:29:22.300 their cells regenerate quickly and change more than ours do but we are the same they are the 00:29:22.380 --> 00:29:28.280 same shooty follows through that he he follows he does but the other one didn't change so which one 00:29:28.280 --> 00:29:34.040 is more original so you've got one and you you you linearly split another one off that one is 00:29:34.180 --> 00:29:39.260 different it is if you're going to say one is a different model and one is the same old one 00:29:39.540 --> 00:29:45.299 it's not a skate snake skin because as far as we can tell nothing was left behind except his tie 00:29:45.320 --> 00:29:52.900 in his underpants uh and a shirt i'm gonna come back play thing you know yeah but what we've done 00:29:52.900 --> 00:30:00.020 is we have not killed tenet off and that's even rtd's thing so he is the doctor that is the doctor 00:30:00.220 --> 00:30:07.220 this is a new doctor and it is in this one instance a truly new separate entity it's a new 00:30:07.440 --> 00:30:13.419 entity he is new he is not the older doctor he is the younger doctor because he is a day old 00:30:14.020 --> 00:30:20.820 and nothing more with the memories i mean i i i'm not i'm not gonna i've got 101 other things i want 00:30:20.820 --> 00:30:25.220 to argue about and i just don't yeah i don't agree with that because i think you're not you're not 00:30:25.400 --> 00:30:31.160 being consistent but i i don't think that either of us are going to convince ourselves being 00:30:31.420 --> 00:30:35.680 consistent with every other bi-generation there's been no i think i think you're not being consistent 00:30:35.680 --> 00:30:42.459 in saying there is there is some sense in which in every other regeneration when the doctor changes 00:30:42.520 --> 00:30:48.480 but it's still the same the fact that shooty changes here means that he is you know david 00:30:48.700 --> 00:30:55.260 tenet says it's a different person in in the episode what the end of time yeah the end of 00:30:55.340 --> 00:31:01.580 time david tenet says that it's like i die another person gets up and walks off with my memories 00:31:02.360 --> 00:31:11.719 but i die it isn't you but it is also yeah which which which is the previous doctor reanimated the 00:31:11.740 --> 00:31:15.780 point the point i'm making about consistency is that i think all of these arguments you're making 00:31:15.960 --> 00:31:23.780 about shooty's doctor apply to every previous regeneration so i it depends on your understanding 00:31:23.780 --> 00:31:27.420 of regeneration and i think you and i unsurprisingly have slightly different 00:31:27.640 --> 00:31:35.120 understandings of regeneration and there's kind of no point in arguing about which one is right 00:31:35.120 --> 00:31:40.039 or wrong because as rtb didn't think about it everyone has a slightly different interpretation 00:31:40.060 --> 00:31:45.580 of it and i think what's what's different here is the fact that they do seem to split off and 00:31:45.700 --> 00:31:51.340 don't share a timeline although one of the other things that i want to go on to talk about is it i 00:31:51.380 --> 00:31:57.060 think you've kind of alluded to it already slightly in the sense that there is that dialogue where 00:31:57.740 --> 00:32:03.999 shooty's doctor says and i'm calling shooty and not calling tenant david gato's doctor says to 00:32:04.220 --> 00:32:10.800 tenant's doctor you know i'm i'm sorted out because you went and you know chilled out and 00:32:11.460 --> 00:32:18.420 had a rest even though there isn't that linear continuity and that to me didn't make sense 00:32:19.340 --> 00:32:25.600 the the whole you know where gata is explaining it to tenant you need to stop but why is tenant 00:32:25.640 --> 00:32:32.679 the one who needs to stop why you know if they're if they both emerged from by generation as two 00:32:32.760 --> 00:32:37.900 versions of the doctor with the same shared history why haven't they got the same shared 00:32:38.560 --> 00:32:45.200 traumas and things i'll tell you how they can fix that or how when moffat comes back for moffat 00:32:45.230 --> 00:32:51.660 to era how he'll fix it no god no he will have he will have david tenet start to regenerate 00:32:52.300 --> 00:33:01.199 and he will somehow merge back to the 60th anniversary special and be the shooty that 00:33:01.220 --> 00:33:07.820 pops out that's the kind of thing that i i think you know i think that moffat could actually do 00:33:07.960 --> 00:33:13.540 he's very he's he's clever at doing the things like that but i i'm kind of like i just want to 00:33:14.340 --> 00:33:18.440 move on and forget about all the horror of this as soon as we finish discussing it for the podcast 00:33:18.860 --> 00:33:24.319 so that i can this is my therapy right this is i need to talk about it now so that i can 00:33:24.880 --> 00:33:34.060 i can move on but the the other the other thing that i think suggests that at least in rtd's mind 00:33:34.600 --> 00:33:41.600 that there is still some kind of strange linear continuity going on here is that he has donna say 00:33:42.140 --> 00:33:49.119 that tenant's doctor is younger than gatto's doctor and she justifies it because you came 00:33:49.140 --> 00:33:55.540 after him but that makes absolutely no sense it i mean it makes sense that 10 tenant was young 00:33:55.900 --> 00:34:01.460 tenant you know half an hour ago was younger than gatwiz now but 10 and half an hour ago is younger 00:34:01.640 --> 00:34:11.159 than tenant is now himself it this is nonsense this is absolutely nonsense yes i agree shall we 00:34:11.659 --> 00:34:19.100 um putting regeneration aside for for a bit and talk a little i i i broke my notes out into two 00:34:19.120 --> 00:34:24.919 And I tried to, because I watched the episode and I not intentionally taking notes. 00:34:24.929 --> 00:34:26.560 I watched the episode to enjoy it live. 00:34:26.659 --> 00:34:30.580 And I, when I watched the episode, I don't necessarily say I watched it to enjoy it. 00:34:30.690 --> 00:34:31.440 Although I didn't hate it. 00:34:31.679 --> 00:34:32.080 Don't get me wrong. 00:34:32.820 --> 00:34:33.820 There was, there was fun. 00:34:34.179 --> 00:34:39.500 There was fun watching this despite things that were annoying me, but there was fun watching it. 00:34:39.919 --> 00:34:44.480 But when it was done like you, my therapy is numb. 00:34:44.919 --> 00:34:46.100 I'm going to take some notes now. 00:34:46.179 --> 00:35:10.740 And all of those notes had to do with this whole regeneration thing, that all the implications of this regeneration thing. And they did not get better when I listened to the commentary where RTD says basically, yeah, that that was retroactive. It did it to all the doctors in the past. They all had a happy ending and got up and left and went on. And like, oh, oh, and it's like, and I'm not doing anything different than what Big Finish does. And I said, yes, you are doing something very different. 00:35:10.880 --> 00:35:17.460 they are a curator they are curating the legacy of doctor who and you are playing the freaking 00:35:17.780 --> 00:35:22.700 toy maker with the legacy of doctor who because you're its god at the moment and you can change 00:35:22.790 --> 00:35:30.140 it and mar it and and twist it and do anything you want to it and oh i think i totally tried to 00:35:31.010 --> 00:35:36.200 you don't think he's playing the toy maker he's the toy maker he can do whatever he wants and he 00:35:36.220 --> 00:35:43.820 does for us i think it always i think big finish can do things that i that i god i don't i'm not 00:35:43.940 --> 00:35:50.800 going to give examples because i'm i'm not wanting to spoil for listeners who have not heard all big 00:35:50.980 --> 00:35:55.480 finish we'll remember you complaining just a couple episodes about the david tenet episodes 00:35:55.640 --> 00:36:00.300 of big finish and the tom baker episodes because they too slavishly try to recreate the air i know 00:36:00.800 --> 00:36:04.560 there's there is nothing there is nothing there is nothing in the tom baker or david tennant 00:36:05.340 --> 00:36:10.780 i'll all right i'll pick it i'll pick an example they do no i'm not i'm not i'm not i'm not going 00:36:10.780 --> 00:36:15.100 to throw any spoilers in there but i think people remember if they're remembering that from a couple 00:36:15.100 --> 00:36:21.680 of episodes ago i said one of the things i liked about certain certain stories the big finish do 00:36:21.860 --> 00:36:26.960 with other doctors like the i think the examples i was given the sixth seventh and eighth line 00:36:26.980 --> 00:36:31.580 the example I'm thinking of now is with the fifth is that they is that they push the boundaries or 00:36:31.600 --> 00:36:35.940 whatever one of the things they do is they pick up stories of the other companions or I am going 00:36:35.940 --> 00:36:42.480 to get I am going to give an example it's a it's a mild example it annoys me mildly but I'm going 00:36:42.530 --> 00:36:46.700 to give it because I need to give it anyway for a point I'm going to make about the episode later 00:36:47.420 --> 00:36:58.860 so hell why not do it now and that is where they bring back mel at a later stage in her timeline 00:36:58.930 --> 00:37:03.100 than we have seen on screen so rather than doing what you're talking about which is kind of 00:37:03.680 --> 00:37:11.020 curating the old episodes inserting stories that kind of fit in between what we've seen on screen 00:37:11.140 --> 00:37:18.460 they create some of their own continuity and they in this case they do it by having Mel reunite 00:37:18.650 --> 00:37:25.920 with the doctor later in her own personal timeline and I've got a point to make now about you in 00:37:26.140 --> 00:37:34.520 response to your point which is that I think that sometimes big finish do mess about with things 00:37:35.220 --> 00:37:40.340 in a way that I think Russell T Davies has messed about with things now and I've also got a point 00:37:40.920 --> 00:37:46.520 which is that I, I, which is what I was saying, you know, last time we talked about Doctor Who, 00:37:46.880 --> 00:37:54.480 which is I like it when, when Big Finish are more experimental, just as I actually do appreciate the 00:37:54.620 --> 00:37:59.440 fact that, well, Russell T. Davis here is doing something different and it doesn't always work. 00:37:59.700 --> 00:38:05.700 And in general, I'm cool with that. And in fact, you know, to avoid being hypocritical, I, I've got, 00:38:05.820 --> 00:38:10.700 I've got to say and this you know this is why this is what you've got to do as a Doctor Who fan you've 00:38:10.720 --> 00:38:17.140 just got to learn to let go of these things and it it is just that I kind of forgot what it felt 00:38:17.260 --> 00:38:22.800 like because it hasn't happened quite like this for a while but it reminds me that I probably 00:38:23.080 --> 00:38:27.800 should have been kinder to all the people who were complaining about the things that they hated in the 00:38:28.320 --> 00:38:33.520 Whittaker Chibnall era because actually none of them were pushing my buttons like this but when 00:38:33.540 --> 00:38:41.200 you remember what it feels like it is actually a little bit painful so but i the sorry yeah the the 00:38:41.350 --> 00:38:47.500 the point about the point about big finish is that yeah i think they sometimes do do do that kind of 00:38:47.510 --> 00:38:53.460 stuff but but i don't think and so i think that there is there is a sense in which they are doing 00:38:53.470 --> 00:39:01.520 the same thing rtd is doing here but what rtd said about big finish i i'll agree with you in the sense 00:39:01.540 --> 00:39:07.920 that he didn't get what they do but I think he was missing a different point about what they do 00:39:08.460 --> 00:39:15.480 which is that they don't say all of the doctors in the past by generated in order to be able to 00:39:15.480 --> 00:39:24.020 tell stories with them they actually fit the stories in to the timelines that went before 00:39:25.040 --> 00:39:31.500 so for example with the one I'm complaining about which is what they did with Mel in Mel's 00:39:31.520 --> 00:39:38.380 future didn't involve any kind of contortions or whatever i mean obviously they had to pick up mel's 00:39:38.520 --> 00:39:46.640 story from her several on glitz days but that that you know that didn't contradict regeneration or 00:39:46.720 --> 00:39:53.940 anything like that and when they want to do it with the the doctor um you know different actors 00:39:54.020 --> 00:39:59.340 playing the doctor whatever they get the different actors in the doctor playing the doctor as the 00:39:59.360 --> 00:40:06.600 doctor was when they were playing them in many cases and as rtd said in the country it's a bit 00:40:06.680 --> 00:40:10.200 like they're doing with tales from the tardis they did exactly the same thing there and they 00:40:10.820 --> 00:40:17.520 threw in some line about you know how timey wimey stuff has changed the doctor's appearance in age 00:40:17.960 --> 00:40:24.380 it's exactly what chibnall did in power of the doctor doing the same thing i kind of think that 00:40:24.400 --> 00:40:30.300 thing is fine and also if you haven't heard once in future i'm not going to recommend it because 00:40:30.400 --> 00:40:37.200 it's awful but they do something different that's the uh as well that's the 60th anniversary big 00:40:37.380 --> 00:40:42.120 finish yeah i've heard all those i quite enjoyed them yeah yeah well it's not awful some of them 00:40:42.120 --> 00:40:48.260 are all right but generally speaking it's a mess um it's a mess you know again it's it's big finish 00:40:48.280 --> 00:40:55.220 doing something different and experimental in order to tell these stories in a doing the kind 00:40:55.220 --> 00:41:02.520 of multi-doctor thing in a different way and I'm in favor of doing things differently doing new 00:41:02.700 --> 00:41:08.980 things and so I'm while I'm complaining about these things I'm not saying I'm not saying don't 00:41:08.980 --> 00:41:14.420 do them but I do think I do think RTD missed the point in the video commentary that's not what Big 00:41:14.440 --> 00:41:19.600 finish do he's not doing something that big finish do but what you're saying is that you just need to 00:41:19.700 --> 00:41:26.220 let it go that fans just need to let it go yes let go and i'm i am i am very much looking forward 00:41:26.220 --> 00:41:31.620 to rtd telling us that too because he has been talking to the audience in these three episodes 00:41:32.440 --> 00:41:39.080 and uh i'm i'm looking forward to i'm thinking what episode two where got was doctor breaks 00:41:39.100 --> 00:41:46.440 into a song and dance number of let it go maybe with uh uh waddingham from uh ted lasso maybe 00:41:46.560 --> 00:41:50.880 she'll be a guest i don't know but there's a musical number an episode in the christmas 00:41:51.130 --> 00:41:59.080 special i heard that one today just before we podcasted uh actually uh okay let me let me 00:42:00.900 --> 00:42:04.640 let's get to the episode unfortunately the first thing i'm going to say about the episode is it's 00:42:04.660 --> 00:42:11.360 the last of the time lords all over again it is a giant children of earth and torchwood miracle 00:42:11.760 --> 00:42:17.680 day and and it's like okay you've got you got the satellite network remember they even name check it 00:42:18.150 --> 00:42:26.320 you have the crazy dance number take the master take the yeah take the toy maker uh rtd overuses 00:42:26.540 --> 00:42:30.760 pop music he even says that in the commentary he loves the power of pop music i think it dates the 00:42:30.780 --> 00:42:38.960 show and it doesn't work but okay of course the solution it's the spice girls yeah i'd really it's 00:42:38.960 --> 00:42:46.360 not it's not like using britney spears in in um they'll be dated someday too whatever it's called 00:42:46.520 --> 00:42:51.740 the end of the earth or whatever it's called the toxic no no the point this point about using the 00:42:51.900 --> 00:42:58.180 spice girls is you're genuinely using some old music it's it's more like it's more like um 00:42:58.760 --> 00:43:05.300 oh there's in far in father's day where they use uh tainted love or something there's a 00:43:06.000 --> 00:43:09.840 anyway there's some that was modern at the time of the episode yeah but no no no it was content 00:43:09.880 --> 00:43:13.820 it was contemporary to the episode it was contemporary with the episode tainted love i 00:43:14.440 --> 00:43:18.000 was contemporary with the time the episode was shot in if that's what it was 00:43:18.740 --> 00:43:26.960 no no no not not not sorry was meant to be i.e earth 1980s yes exactly yes it was it was 00:43:26.980 --> 00:43:32.460 contemporary with period the time of the period uh let's see you've got the doctor being magically 00:43:32.740 --> 00:43:42.620 saved by a ridiculous bit of meh you've uh you've got the finale taking place aboard a unit hq 00:43:43.440 --> 00:43:50.440 in the sky basically and you have the sequence where why do you have to be so small why do you 00:43:50.440 --> 00:43:56.160 have to be bad why don't you come with me and we'll travel the stars together i mean and someone 00:43:56.180 --> 00:44:04.440 picking up the master's ring i.e. tooth a woman's hand poppy i mean wow look although although i 00:44:04.600 --> 00:44:10.720 think that that was a very deliberate nod whereas i i could put the rest of it down to just running 00:44:10.880 --> 00:44:17.900 out of kind of ideas yeah yeah or or just you know his his he's running along the same tracks but 00:44:18.280 --> 00:44:23.340 no i i agree and certain the kind of trope of everyone in the world being affected i mentioned 00:44:24.000 --> 00:44:32.560 Miracle Day and The End of Time are kind of standard things that he does a lot and you just 00:44:32.720 --> 00:44:40.000 really haven't seen since he left the show but I also think that there are certain things in this 00:44:40.200 --> 00:44:49.320 episode like, I don't know how, we did discuss this a little bit I think when we talked about 00:44:49.340 --> 00:44:54.580 wild blue yonder was the fact that previous doctor who episodes have done some of these things 00:44:55.380 --> 00:45:01.720 and have done them better and so for example the message in the screens i thought was better with 00:45:01.720 --> 00:45:10.480 the moon landing in the silence and the kind of scary puppets was better in night terrors and 00:45:10.600 --> 00:45:17.560 even kind of the corridors rearranging themselves i was thinking god i've seen that before no it 00:45:17.580 --> 00:45:21.260 wasn't they weren't corridors in night terrors were there i thought you said puppets and night 00:45:21.420 --> 00:45:26.140 terrors yeah the puppets were night terrors what's so night terrors i don't remember night terrors 00:45:26.940 --> 00:45:32.920 it was almost the puppets or the dolls they were dolls they they were the they were the main bad 00:45:32.920 --> 00:45:38.680 in night terrors well i'm sure it was done better it was a moffat effort episode um but 00:45:40.040 --> 00:45:44.040 the rearranging corridors i was kind of thinking i'm sure i'm sure there's an episode where they 00:45:44.060 --> 00:45:49.820 did that i was thinking hotel with a naimon well i could have been the hotel with the naimon or it 00:45:49.920 --> 00:45:54.860 could have been wild blue yonder literally last week well there's that too wait a minute was the 00:45:54.960 --> 00:46:01.840 one was the one with the hotel night terrors no okay the one with hotel i've forgotten the name 00:46:01.980 --> 00:46:07.040 of temporarily but it was the same season i think it might be i think they might i think that might 00:46:07.100 --> 00:46:11.440 be in the episode after the one with the with night night terrors do you not remember night 00:46:11.460 --> 00:46:16.280 terrors at all i do not remember it at all i don't remember anything with puppets uh other than 00:46:17.020 --> 00:46:25.400 yeah deep down below yeah um well obviously rtd i'm kind of i'm not i'm not averse to reuse 00:46:25.780 --> 00:46:31.080 reusing ideas my argument i can't remember whether i've ever written this theory up but my argument 00:46:31.280 --> 00:46:37.240 is that the beast below since you mentioned it is basically exactly the same plot as the day of the 00:46:37.260 --> 00:46:43.720 Doctor he just reworks his own story I'm fine with that because the day of the Doctor turns out great 00:46:44.360 --> 00:46:55.520 I'm not necessarily particularly against RTD reusing great ideas but I guess my problem with 00:46:55.600 --> 00:47:02.400 the way it happens in this episode is that all of the other examples except I guess for Last of the 00:47:02.420 --> 00:47:08.560 time lords and no end of time as well where were episodes where i thought it'd been done better 00:47:08.880 --> 00:47:15.700 previously so why why come and do it again here's a obviously this episode switching switching 00:47:15.700 --> 00:47:22.400 gears obviously this episode has something to say about social media and i don't think it does in 00:47:22.740 --> 00:47:27.840 i think it's i think it's another example of throwing throwing an idea in and not developing 00:47:27.860 --> 00:47:34.240 it well yes but that's the point he's thrown it out there to show you see how awful it is and and 00:47:34.240 --> 00:47:39.960 then he hasn't done anything meaningful with it i'm not saying that it was a successful 00:47:41.160 --> 00:47:46.400 thing out there but but here's my question if in fact every person thought they were right 00:47:46.820 --> 00:47:52.980 all the time is that what would happen i i don't i just don't feel like this is how it would the 00:47:53.000 --> 00:47:58.360 chaos would devolve i'm not convinced that an airline pilot would think i can just land this 00:47:58.520 --> 00:48:05.540 plane wherever the heck i want to i i i'm maybe if he tried landing it you know go first or something 00:48:06.300 --> 00:48:12.600 but bringing it down on his house and and is this what kate really thinks when she turns the 00:48:12.780 --> 00:48:21.000 device off is that really what she's thinking or is that something else is is it some does she 00:48:21.040 --> 00:48:27.540 really distrust the doctor does she really have a thing about shirley's wheelchair is she uh 00:48:28.140 --> 00:48:37.740 you know i i i i'm not clear whether or not what we're seeing is meant to reflect our opinions 00:48:37.960 --> 00:48:46.160 without consequence or or what i just didn't get it they're just unpleasant yeah and it it's it's 00:48:46.180 --> 00:48:53.900 an interesting idea the you know that that if you kind of removed that that kind of self self 00:48:54.240 --> 00:49:02.660 regulating the the kind of part of ourselves that suppresses these kind of ugly suspicions or 00:49:03.460 --> 00:49:09.600 prejudices or whatever they may be and we we just kind of allow them to run unchecked what would 00:49:09.660 --> 00:49:14.420 happen then it's another interesting idea but it's an it's an idea that isn't developed and 00:49:14.440 --> 00:49:20.760 it's not an idea that really fits with the toy maker this is one of my problems with it it's that 00:49:21.250 --> 00:49:30.620 yeah there are things in this episode that aren't really about games and the the the toy maker may 00:49:30.820 --> 00:49:37.340 not may not have been the best villain to choose for this i guess considering what he could do 00:49:37.880 --> 00:49:45.320 did he really need to employ the satellite network to and and the television image to cause everyone 00:49:45.360 --> 00:49:50.280 on earth to be the way they are that doesn't feel like it feels like he could have done that just by 00:49:51.920 --> 00:49:56.860 he has he has the power everything has to be everything has to be a game and everything has 00:49:56.860 --> 00:50:02.560 to follow the rules and that's not that doesn't feel like a game to me yeah i i think what it 00:50:02.660 --> 00:50:06.560 doesn't know it's not and i so i think that idea and this idea of everything being right they were 00:50:06.580 --> 00:50:12.480 not games and i think hold on yeah he he does say later in the episode all the games you play with 00:50:12.520 --> 00:50:17.600 the children playing in the xboxes and their rooms and whatnot and then there's the other games the 00:50:17.840 --> 00:50:25.240 dating the ghosting the canceling it's like those aren't games either i mean sure we say it's playing 00:50:25.440 --> 00:50:34.460 games but it's not that is not really what a game is that's a that's a that's that's a playing 00:50:34.500 --> 00:50:37.600 without rules kind of thing. 00:50:37.620 --> 00:50:38.120 Except it's not. 00:50:38.280 --> 00:50:43.180 I think the argument would be there are rules to these things. 00:50:43.440 --> 00:50:44.840 They're kind of unwritten rules. 00:50:45.640 --> 00:50:47.080 But I think you could make the case. 00:50:47.490 --> 00:50:49.140 I think it's an idea that needs developing, 00:50:49.400 --> 00:50:50.540 but I think you could make the case. 00:50:50.780 --> 00:50:51.360 It's about rules. 00:50:51.570 --> 00:50:55.200 But I think you've also put your finger on the key thing 00:50:55.440 --> 00:50:59.940 about the Toymaker, which is, and I say this having not seen 00:51:00.320 --> 00:51:02.580 The Celestial Toymaker, so maybe I shouldn't comment, 00:51:03.320 --> 00:51:08.080 But I have encountered the Toymaker in the three Big Finish stories. 00:51:09.540 --> 00:51:14.120 And assuming that they are, and I'm inclined to give them credit, are based... 00:51:14.320 --> 00:51:19.300 I haven't seen The Celestial Toymaker because I'm waiting for the animation to come out, which is now announced. 00:51:19.440 --> 00:51:20.580 Waiting is one word. 00:51:21.580 --> 00:51:22.460 Dreading is another word. 00:51:23.080 --> 00:51:23.300 Yeah. 00:51:23.960 --> 00:51:24.280 Possibly. 00:51:24.520 --> 00:51:29.680 But the way that they interpret the Toymaker is that it's all about rules. 00:51:30.060 --> 00:51:30.860 It's all about rules. 00:51:31.340 --> 00:51:32.660 And that's not... 00:51:32.680 --> 00:51:36.540 You want to cheat, really, the kind of take on this here, 00:51:36.630 --> 00:51:40.420 because I think even when they do play a game with the toy maker, 00:51:41.120 --> 00:51:42.900 I don't mind them choosing a simple game. 00:51:43.160 --> 00:51:46.260 So cutting the cards is fine because that has a clear set of rules 00:51:46.310 --> 00:51:48.520 and that kind of fits with the way the toy maker thinks. 00:51:49.180 --> 00:51:53.020 But playing, I mean, you could call catch a game 00:51:53.710 --> 00:51:58.180 because in a sense it's playing, we amuse ourselves, 00:51:58.680 --> 00:52:08.820 But it's not a game in the sense of having rules, because the rules that the toymaker says would not create a sensible game. 00:52:09.610 --> 00:52:13.700 Like the rule is that if you drop the ball, you lose. 00:52:13.730 --> 00:52:16.140 Well, then just throw it wild. 00:52:16.480 --> 00:52:18.580 No one would be able to. 00:52:19.140 --> 00:52:22.240 You need a whole other set of rules around it, 00:52:22.300 --> 00:52:28.620 which is why people develop these games into much more complicated things, 00:52:29.500 --> 00:52:30.600 like Oligorn, for example. 00:52:30.940 --> 00:52:32.040 I would have been so happy. 00:52:32.330 --> 00:52:36.720 I would have been so happy if, and I believe, if I'm not mistaken, 00:52:37.120 --> 00:52:39.700 Gatwa Stocker throws the last throw. 00:52:40.300 --> 00:52:42.360 So he actually gets, it's a tag team throw, 00:52:42.600 --> 00:52:45.880 Tenet to Gatwa off the tower. 00:52:46.540 --> 00:52:50.640 I would have been so happy if he'd managed to pull that in as a bullet, 00:52:51.300 --> 00:52:54.300 get a good spin on it and get some turn on that ball in, 00:52:54.340 --> 00:52:55.800 in honor of the fifth doctor, 00:52:56.880 --> 00:52:57.200 you know, 00:52:57.600 --> 00:52:57.840 actually, 00:52:58.140 --> 00:53:01.840 actually use some skill to defeat the toy maker. 00:53:02.320 --> 00:53:04.480 The ball comes right at him and we see it do a, 00:53:04.740 --> 00:53:04.860 you know, 00:53:04.940 --> 00:53:08.960 a 90 mile an hour turn and swing away from the, 00:53:09.560 --> 00:53:10.340 from his hand. 00:53:10.960 --> 00:53:11.980 That would have been phenomenal. 00:53:12.360 --> 00:53:13.560 And it would have been consistent with the doctor. 00:53:13.920 --> 00:53:15.080 But while we're on that subject, 00:53:15.520 --> 00:53:19.220 I also think that there's something that's emblematic of the whole new who 00:53:19.660 --> 00:53:25.880 era or at least rtd's time in it anyway if you go back to the celeste toymaker what we do know is 00:53:25.880 --> 00:53:32.940 that the doctor won a logic game the doctor won by his brain these doctors played a game of pure luck 00:53:33.600 --> 00:53:41.000 and a game of just action and physical skill there there these are those are hollow games 00:53:41.340 --> 00:53:46.100 compared to say playing a game of chess not saying there's anything wrong with playing games like 00:53:46.120 --> 00:53:52.580 that but they're in a different category altogether and they are definitely not uh 00:53:53.520 --> 00:53:58.620 it it feels we have lost something where the doctor is the cleverest man in the room 00:53:59.320 --> 00:54:03.060 and wins by being the cleverest man in the room i think there was a point there 00:54:03.780 --> 00:54:10.280 in in this episode the point where the doctor selects just cutting the cards which as you say 00:54:10.460 --> 00:54:16.080 is purely a game of chance where i thought we were going to get an explanation for why he is 00:54:16.100 --> 00:54:21.420 chosen a game of chance when i think i know i'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt 00:54:22.040 --> 00:54:25.060 well i'm going to give him the benefit of doubt it could have been a reason because you play a 00:54:25.120 --> 00:54:31.220 game of skill against someone who who is this extraordinary shouldn't be able to lose elemental 00:54:31.400 --> 00:54:38.840 force when you play a game of chance it's 50 50 whereas when you do anything that involves skill 00:54:39.000 --> 00:54:44.720 against something that has these elemental powers i think you've got to be you've basically got to 00:54:44.740 --> 00:54:51.680 be a god to to be well what he did was he gave himself two chances i think it was intentional 00:54:52.000 --> 00:54:58.580 i think that if he'd sat down at that table and if he had won he'd have said okay i banish you 00:54:59.240 --> 00:55:06.780 to eternity and he lost so he says okay best two out of three those are the rules he that i think 00:55:06.800 --> 00:55:12.760 he planned it i think that was his i have two shots at this kind of thing and that's and that's 00:55:12.780 --> 00:55:17.680 the way i'm going to do it but i i would so i think in a way he was strategizing a little bit 00:55:17.800 --> 00:55:23.360 although it does kind of know the logic uh it does defeat the logic of uh donna's dad yeah 00:55:23.520 --> 00:55:27.960 donna's dad saying the cards don't have a memory that's true you actually don't have better odds 00:55:28.500 --> 00:55:35.700 of winning two but you feel like you do it was like well interestingly it wasn't donna's dad 00:55:35.920 --> 00:55:42.180 saying the cards have no memory that was ian fleming in uh i think casino royale it was it 00:55:42.200 --> 00:55:47.520 was donna's dad saying the dice have no memory dice which i sorry dice card i assume was it 00:55:48.440 --> 00:55:52.520 was deliberately i'm i'm pretty sure it must have been a reference to me in flebbing but anyway 00:55:53.020 --> 00:55:58.880 it might be it might be i mean that's not a that's not an uncommon um saying when people 00:55:58.900 --> 00:56:05.980 are debunking logical fallacies about odds um so dice cards if it had been mark gaitis the marksman 00:56:06.080 --> 00:56:10.280 is it the marksman's fallacy or something no that's not it and i can't remember which fallacy 00:56:10.300 --> 00:56:15.740 it is, but it's a logic, it's a formal logical fallacy, but it's definitely not the marks for 00:56:15.760 --> 00:56:21.900 that one. And at that seemingly opportune moment in this conversation, I think we'll hold off until 00:56:22.660 --> 00:56:28.640 our next special episode out tomorrow. Simon, thank you for joining me. It's a pleasure as 00:56:28.720 --> 00:56:33.900 always. And listeners, I hope you'll join us all again tomorrow on Fusion Patrol. 00:56:36.580 --> 00:56:38.880 You've been listening to Fusion Patrol. 00:56:39.450 --> 00:56:40.180 Thanks for listening. 00:56:42.400 --> 00:56:43.520 If you've enjoyed this episode, 00:56:43.770 --> 00:56:45.580 we hope you'll consider supporting us at 00:56:45.920 --> 00:56:47.820 buymeacoffee.com slash Fusion Patrol 00:56:48.340 --> 00:56:50.700 or patreon.com slash Fusion Patrol. 00:56:51.520 --> 00:56:53.500 For our monthly Patreon subscribers, 00:56:53.780 --> 00:56:57.040 we're currently running a special series on Babylon 5. 00:56:59.160 --> 00:57:03.580 Come join the conversation and find other content at fusionpatrol.com. 00:57:04.120 --> 00:57:06.080 And we're back on social media. 00:57:06.240 --> 00:57:09.240 where you can also follow us on Mastodon and the Fediverse. 00:57:09.950 --> 00:57:13.840 Our address is at podcast at fusion patrol dot com. 00:57:16.400 --> 00:57:19.240 Our music is Fight the Future by Amber Wolf. 00:57:21.960 --> 00:57:24.240 This has been a Lone Locust production.