WEBVTT 00:00:08.120 --> 00:00:11.280 you're listening to fusion patrol a listener supported podcast 00:00:14.020 --> 00:00:18.440 each week we take a single episode of a science fiction tv series movie or 00:00:18.610 --> 00:00:24.980 audio and overanalyze it to within an inch of its life welcome to the discussion 00:00:31.580 --> 00:00:37.600 hello and welcome to another episode of fusion patrol i'm eugene and i'm simon and tonight we 00:00:37.780 --> 00:00:46.660 are looking at once again the underwater menace however this time the animated version uh just 00:00:46.740 --> 00:00:58.700 for your edification. We previously reviewed this in April of 2016, back in episode 256 of our 00:00:59.080 --> 00:01:07.520 podcast, when they had just released the Telesnap only version. And just for that walk down memory, 00:01:07.700 --> 00:01:15.340 I'm going to give you the synopsis I gave of the episode from back then. So here we go. 00:01:15.880 --> 00:01:20.240 The newly added companion of Jamie is taken on his first space adventure, sort of space 00:01:20.460 --> 00:01:25.040 adventure, part of this adventure with Ben and Polly and the second doctor who is still 00:01:25.150 --> 00:01:26.380 very early in his regeneration. 00:01:26.790 --> 00:01:30.560 And they land somewhere that apparently looks like Cornwall, except that the sedimentary 00:01:30.720 --> 00:01:34.020 rock that's so obviously in front of them is claimed to be volcanic rock. 00:01:34.380 --> 00:01:38.460 And so the doctor says they're not there and they find a cave and then they're all 00:01:38.600 --> 00:01:38.820 captured. 00:01:39.340 --> 00:01:41.480 And then they find the remnants of Atlantis in the caves. 00:01:41.960 --> 00:01:44.920 And Professor Zaroff, who's crazy and wants to blow up the planet. 00:01:45.220 --> 00:01:46.860 The doctor does things to stop him. 00:01:47.040 --> 00:01:48.560 And that's all the summary I'm going to give you. 00:01:48.980 --> 00:01:53.100 And I think I may have embellished the story just a little even at that level. 00:01:53.780 --> 00:01:55.880 Well, the summary is still great. 00:01:56.200 --> 00:01:58.320 But the new animation you did for it is excellent. 00:01:59.060 --> 00:01:59.780 Yes, yes. 00:02:00.440 --> 00:02:06.180 I have actually made a proper one this time for it. 00:02:06.300 --> 00:02:13.420 And so I just wanted to give you my mindset when you're listening to the last one as to how much I gave this story. 00:02:13.660 --> 00:02:15.120 So here we go. 00:02:15.200 --> 00:02:23.300 Underwater Minus proper synopsis part one with disbelieving new companion Jamie in tow the TARDIS 00:02:23.520 --> 00:02:28.860 arrives on a rocky Mediterranean coastline they are soon captured and taken deep underground to 00:02:28.980 --> 00:02:36.540 Atlantis from the clues they determine they are sometime in the future post 1968 from the brilliant 00:02:36.880 --> 00:02:42.259 underwater based food the doctor determines that the famous missing scientist Zaroff must be living 00:02:42.280 --> 00:02:47.500 among them. There is little time left as they are all to be sacrificed to Ando, god of Atlantis. 00:02:48.040 --> 00:02:52.500 The sacrifice takes the form of being fed to the sharks. Before they are sacrificed, the doctor 00:02:52.660 --> 00:02:58.560 manages to get a sympathetic Atlantean, Ara, to take a note to Zarov. Reading the note, which only 00:02:58.780 --> 00:03:04.940 says, I have a secret, Zarov has the doctor released. The doctor bargains with his secret 00:03:05.130 --> 00:03:11.380 to get the others spared. This works, but the doctor reveals his bluff. There was no secret. 00:03:12.100 --> 00:03:18.340 Zorov is actually amused by this and recognizes the doctor as a fellow scientist, and he takes the doctor to his laboratory. 00:03:19.200 --> 00:03:26.020 Jamie and Ben are sent to the mines, while Polly is sent for conversion to be a fish person and farm the undersea crops. 00:03:26.720 --> 00:03:30.500 Polly is about to be operated on when the episode ends. 00:03:31.160 --> 00:03:31.520 Part 2 00:03:32.320 --> 00:03:38.340 in Zorov's laboratory the doctor sabotages the power accidentally delaying the fish operation 00:03:38.580 --> 00:03:44.440 on Polly delaying it long enough for Aura to rescue her meanwhile Zorov explains his plan 00:03:44.440 --> 00:03:50.680 to the doctor Zorov has convinced the Atlanteans that he will lift Atlantis back above the waves 00:03:51.340 --> 00:03:56.919 to do this he will drain the oceans into a shaft they've been drilling deep into the earth's crust 00:03:57.440 --> 00:03:59.720 The Doctor immediately sees the folly of that. 00:04:00.300 --> 00:04:06.940 Draining the oceans into the super-hot core of the Earth will simply create a massive steam explosion and destroy the Earth. 00:04:07.420 --> 00:04:09.160 Surely, Zaroff must realize that. 00:04:09.640 --> 00:04:14.240 Yes, but it will lift Atlantis in the process, counters Zaroff. 00:04:14.760 --> 00:04:21.739 Zaroff further explains that he's doing this as the ultimate act of a scientist because he can. 00:04:22.260 --> 00:04:24.920 The scientist's dream of supreme power. 00:04:25.000 --> 00:04:31.300 The doctor instead realizes that Zarath is just insane and promptly escapes from the madman. 00:04:31.920 --> 00:04:36.600 In the mine, Ben and Jamie meet two other topsiders, Sean and Jacko. 00:04:37.130 --> 00:04:40.420 The Atlanteans capture shipwrecked survivors and put them to work in the mines. 00:04:41.020 --> 00:04:44.080 Sean and Jacko want to escape, and they have a plan. 00:04:44.570 --> 00:04:50.680 With Ben and Jamie's help, they escape into some unused caves and tunnels, searching for a way out. 00:04:51.320 --> 00:04:54.540 Ara takes Polly to a hidden place in the temple of Ando. 00:04:55.080 --> 00:05:00.660 The doctor overhears Ramo, a priest, expressing his doubts about Zarath and approaches him, 00:05:01.340 --> 00:05:06.600 explaining that Zarath plans to destroy the world and requests to be taken for an audience with Thos, 00:05:07.080 --> 00:05:08.900 leader of Atlantis, to put his case. 00:05:09.440 --> 00:05:10.320 Ramo agrees. 00:05:10.920 --> 00:05:15.920 The tunnel that Benjamishan and Jacko have been exploring leads them into the hidden place in the temple, 00:05:16.270 --> 00:05:17.200 and they meet Polly. 00:05:17.720 --> 00:05:21.540 The doctor is taken to Thos and explains that Zarath is insane, 00:05:22.140 --> 00:05:27.020 And after Thos gives the doctor's account due consideration, he turns him over to Zaroff. 00:05:27.610 --> 00:05:28.180 End of part two. 00:05:29.120 --> 00:05:29.540 Part three. 00:05:30.100 --> 00:05:35.440 Zaroff orders the doctor and Ramo to be sent for sacrifice, although it is clear that Thos 00:05:35.470 --> 00:05:37.600 has begun to see the truth in the doctor's words. 00:05:38.100 --> 00:05:41.860 Zaroff may indeed be a bit unhinged. 00:05:42.520 --> 00:05:48.259 During the sacrifice, the god Amno, sounding suspiciously like Ben, has the priest bow 00:05:48.280 --> 00:05:53.520 in supplication, giving the Doctor and Ramo the opportunity to escape into the hiding place, 00:05:54.020 --> 00:06:00.540 where the TARDIS team is reunited and begins to hatch a plan. Zaro's food source, while brilliant, 00:06:01.280 --> 00:06:07.180 spoils within hours. If they can get the slave fish people to strike, they can cut off the city's 00:06:07.240 --> 00:06:12.880 food supply. Shun and Jacko are said to organize the workers' industrial action. The Doctor and 00:06:12.920 --> 00:06:17.200 others will kidnap Zaro, which they do, and take him back to the temple hiding place. 00:06:17.900 --> 00:06:21.520 Zaroff boasts that his plans are already in motion and cannot be stopped. 00:06:22.200 --> 00:06:26.140 The doctor doubts Zaroff's ego will allow the final act to occur without him, 00:06:26.560 --> 00:06:32.220 but goes to check anyway, leaving Polly and Ramno guarding the suddenly stricken ill Zaroff. 00:06:32.740 --> 00:06:37.260 It is a trick, and he kills Ramno and takes Polly prisoner, escaping into the tunnels. 00:06:38.100 --> 00:06:41.000 Jamie rescues Polly, but Zaroff makes good his escape. 00:06:41.720 --> 00:06:44.320 Zaroff finds his way to Thaus, who tells him of the rebellion. 00:06:45.080 --> 00:06:49.820 Zarath wants them all killed, and Thaos again notices there might be a hint of madness in 00:06:49.980 --> 00:06:55.040 Zarath's actions. So, Zarath shoots him and has his guards kill Thaos' guards. 00:06:55.600 --> 00:07:03.640 Nothing in the world can stop him now! Part 4. Thaos isn't really dead, and the doctor finds him. 00:07:04.170 --> 00:07:08.360 They take him back to the temple. The doctor comes up with a desperate plan to stop Zarath. 00:07:08.700 --> 00:07:13.919 He'll have to flood Atlantis and destroy Zarath's machinery. He could use the help of his entire 00:07:13.940 --> 00:07:20.000 but Polly and Jamie have wandered off and gotten lost. He'll have to make do with Ben. First, 00:07:20.310 --> 00:07:24.260 they bluff their way into a power station and cut off a power that holds back the sea, 00:07:24.640 --> 00:07:30.640 starting the inrush of the sea. This happens near where Jamie and Polly are lost and they scramble 00:07:30.830 --> 00:07:35.720 ever upward for the rest of the episode, trying to escape the rising water. While all the others 00:07:35.940 --> 00:07:40.959 organize an evacuation of Atlantis, the doctor and Ben go after Zaroff. First, the doctor lets 00:07:41.000 --> 00:07:45.980 Zaroff's staff know what the actual plan is and that the ocean is flooding in soon to kill them. 00:07:46.560 --> 00:07:52.940 They flee. Zaroff is made of sterner, madder stuff and has prepared for the eventuality that 00:07:53.080 --> 00:07:58.280 someone might try to stop him at the last minute. The controls are in a room that can be sealed 00:07:58.580 --> 00:08:04.020 from the inside. Zaroff seals himself inside behind the bars and taunts the doctor, saying 00:08:04.260 --> 00:08:09.560 that he cannot stop him. Ben is also worried about drowning and flees, leaving the doctor alone. 00:08:09.920 --> 00:08:15.140 The doctor cuts the power to the lights, luring Zaroff out of his cage to activate the emergency lights. 00:08:15.700 --> 00:08:20.700 During the distraction, Ben slips into the cage, sealing it, but not before escaping. 00:08:21.260 --> 00:08:25.120 Now, the controls are trapped behind bars and Zaroff cannot reach them. 00:08:25.760 --> 00:08:26.960 The doctor and Ben evacuate. 00:08:27.350 --> 00:08:34.700 Although the doctor feels that they must go back to rescue Zaroff, Ben prevents it and Zaroff drowns, still straining to reach the controls. 00:08:35.440 --> 00:08:39.520 Through what is no doubt a miracle Amdo, Jamie and Polly have escaped. 00:08:39.940 --> 00:08:43.320 finding themselves overlooking the TARDIS and soon from another tunnel, 00:08:43.550 --> 00:08:47.000 the doctor and Ben find themselves in the same place reunited. 00:08:47.920 --> 00:08:49.560 They leave Atlantis to its fate. 00:08:50.060 --> 00:08:50.340 All right. 00:08:50.440 --> 00:08:51.200 The underwater menace. 00:08:52.980 --> 00:08:58.260 I should let listeners know that I have just completed listening to our old 00:08:58.540 --> 00:08:58.700 episode. 00:08:58.870 --> 00:09:00.920 So I have fresh in my mind, 00:09:01.450 --> 00:09:06.959 some of the thoughts that we had about that one so that I can keep my 00:09:06.980 --> 00:09:15.980 comments to um kind of how it's improved i'll go so far as to say how it's improved uh from the 00:09:16.100 --> 00:09:22.580 version so uh and i should say i have not just listened to it so i don't have those things 00:09:22.660 --> 00:09:27.140 fresh in my mind and i was i was curious how long ago it was if that i mean seven years i've 00:09:27.160 --> 00:09:33.239 probably forgotten quite a lot of it i guess we a little bit we we we should explain that this is 00:09:33.260 --> 00:09:35.840 This is one of those occasions where we're revisiting an old story 00:09:36.140 --> 00:09:42.500 because we have watched every single Doctor Who that has been, 00:09:42.600 --> 00:09:46.480 every missing Doctor Who where an animation has been done for the podcast. 00:09:47.460 --> 00:09:53.660 And we then went on and watched every single reconstruction that was released. 00:09:54.760 --> 00:09:57.060 And Underwater Menace was one of those, 00:09:57.740 --> 00:10:00.820 although only in the very kind of minimal sense. 00:10:01.200 --> 00:10:02.340 It was a reconstruction. 00:10:02.900 --> 00:10:21.680 Yeah. Yeah. Reconstruction was released, I guess, back in 2016 then. And now we have had a full animation of both the two missing stories and the two existing stories of the four part serial in both black and white and color. 00:10:22.700 --> 00:10:27.240 And I will say I watched entirely the color animations for this go round. 00:10:27.540 --> 00:10:38.360 And I've had a look at both the color, the black and white animations, and the recons that are provided on the new Blu-ray release. 00:10:39.100 --> 00:10:40.780 Are they better than the old recons? 00:10:41.120 --> 00:10:41.720 Oh, good. 00:10:42.760 --> 00:10:43.420 Well, that's something. 00:10:44.060 --> 00:10:44.760 They're not the same. 00:10:45.060 --> 00:10:45.620 Let me say that. 00:10:46.180 --> 00:10:46.980 We should point out. 00:10:47.710 --> 00:10:56.620 The old ones, in the old podcast, there's an awful lot of us, both of us, complaining about what a terrible, terrible reconstruction job it was. 00:10:57.080 --> 00:11:06.760 there i think you said there's a point not not eight frames per second uh of of recreation or 00:11:07.430 --> 00:11:15.420 something um sometimes you go two three scenes with the same picture on the screen that there's 00:11:15.420 --> 00:11:20.240 a scene where they go let's go let's go this way and then they spend a long time talking 00:11:20.970 --> 00:11:26.640 and and or not even talking just the sounds of footsteps and all they're showing you on the 00:11:27.300 --> 00:11:37.640 is a door a closed door and so you know it was it was truly an abysmal telestap recreations the 00:11:37.820 --> 00:11:43.520 worst i've ever seen and it was put out and i i doubted that it would even be released in the 00:11:43.660 --> 00:11:49.540 united states that is not true they did release it it's just as bad since since i'm not going to 00:11:49.580 --> 00:11:55.200 say an awful lot about the reconstruction i will i will throw in now then my thoughts on the 00:11:55.220 --> 00:12:01.120 differences with the reconstructed episodes that you get on the blu-ray and again these are the 00:12:01.260 --> 00:12:06.660 reconstructions are just for the two missing episodes and they are very different in style 00:12:06.940 --> 00:12:10.660 from the ones you were talking about so for example one of the things i remember us talking 00:12:10.730 --> 00:12:15.000 about even though it was seven years ago was the fact that there wasn't enough kind of indication 00:12:15.340 --> 00:12:22.620 of who was speaking and that a kind of common way in which they do that in reconstructions is 00:12:22.780 --> 00:12:27.560 okay so they've got they haven't got any new telesnaps to use but they've got a telesnap of 00:12:27.560 --> 00:12:32.480 each speaker and they put the the picture up of whoever is speaking to give you a sense of that 00:12:32.920 --> 00:12:40.500 and that kind of thing is there there's also i and i i think you know this is kind of one of the 00:12:41.200 --> 00:12:45.700 only real benefits in my view of the reconstructions over the animations is the fact that 00:12:45.720 --> 00:12:50.260 where you do have existing clips from the original episodes, 00:12:51.360 --> 00:12:53.260 then they get integrated within that. 00:12:53.270 --> 00:12:56.000 And they have done that here in a way that they didn't do with the, 00:12:56.180 --> 00:12:58.080 the 2016 version. 00:12:59.100 --> 00:13:00.580 So that's quite important. 00:13:00.590 --> 00:13:03.480 I don't think you could do that in the animation because it would be a very 00:13:03.820 --> 00:13:05.320 kind of jarring change. 00:13:06.240 --> 00:13:06.420 Yeah. 00:13:06.980 --> 00:13:08.560 Especially considering how different it looks. 00:13:09.340 --> 00:13:09.480 Well, 00:13:09.760 --> 00:13:09.960 exactly. 00:13:10.120 --> 00:13:10.400 Exactly. 00:13:10.660 --> 00:13:13.760 And so all of the kind of stylized choices that are made in the animation 00:13:13.780 --> 00:13:18.640 that we will come on to you would be reminded of those repeatedly every time you switch back to the 00:13:18.760 --> 00:13:24.060 clips so i don't think you want to do that so i think the recons do a job in the sense that they 00:13:24.420 --> 00:13:32.480 give you that who is speaking and the kind of bare minimal visual uh stimulus to to keep your 00:13:32.760 --> 00:13:38.940 attention focused on the audio plus bridging to the clips but one of the ways in which they do that 00:13:39.320 --> 00:13:45.460 is because they don't have telesnaps showing everything that's going on screen so for example 00:13:45.620 --> 00:13:53.360 there's no there's no picture of the the netting uh when they get captured in a net so in that 00:13:53.540 --> 00:14:01.120 instance it's drawn on um i think we saw something a bit like this in the galaxy 4 recons in in the 00:14:01.300 --> 00:14:08.240 original galaxy 4 recons with kind of very uh slightly strange crude animations slipped into 00:14:08.280 --> 00:14:13.800 to the recons where a lot of action was happening and I guess they felt it was necessary to show 00:14:13.800 --> 00:14:20.700 what was on screen and so we've got some pretty horrible drawings imposed on some of the telesnaps 00:14:20.710 --> 00:14:27.120 and still images in this and that's where I'd kind of say there's a the drawback is compared to the 00:14:27.240 --> 00:14:34.220 2016 recons but overall really is no comparison it's a much better experience if you're only 00:14:34.240 --> 00:14:40.160 watching the recons even never mind the animations okay so let me ask this question because one of 00:14:40.160 --> 00:14:49.880 the things that came out uh during our review of crusade was that i watched it with the subtitles 00:14:50.160 --> 00:14:56.700 turned on and i still felt that there was some issues and i guess there was a separate i don't 00:14:56.700 --> 00:15:00.860 know whether it was an audio track or video track or something explaining what was going on on the 00:15:00.880 --> 00:15:08.900 screen that i didn't see or hear and with from our old conversation it's clear there was nothing 00:15:09.080 --> 00:15:15.320 like that on the old recons and did they add anything on here that says oh they're being 00:15:15.600 --> 00:15:21.160 sacrificed to sharks or something like that no okay so you're still no there isn't but there 00:15:21.280 --> 00:15:25.399 isn't anything there isn't anything where it obviously needs it the only the only thing was 00:15:25.520 --> 00:15:30.980 as i say where there are things on screen or there are there are yeah there are things that 00:15:30.980 --> 00:15:35.400 you see on screen like the net you might not necessarily you could probably infer it all 00:15:35.520 --> 00:15:40.240 from the dialogue but it's a question of do you know about it straight away well or do you only 00:15:40.340 --> 00:15:45.580 know about when someone explains what's going on implicitly that the shark bit was a very 00:15:46.920 --> 00:15:53.899 specific issue because in our original one uh i did not know they were being sacrificed to sharks 00:15:53.900 --> 00:15:58.480 until we got to episode three and someone in dialogue said, 00:15:58.540 --> 00:16:00.920 I should have let them sacrifice you to the sharks. 00:16:01.720 --> 00:16:04.200 I'm like, oh, is that what they were doing in episode one? 00:16:04.980 --> 00:16:08.640 Because I don't know at all, because the tele snaps they had. 00:16:08.980 --> 00:16:12.660 I mentioned the fact that there was a picture of a shark, 00:16:13.420 --> 00:16:19.460 but there was, you know, no, no clue why there was a picture of a shark going on there. 00:16:19.540 --> 00:16:25.280 So it was, you know, with, with, and we should add, I'm sure we've said this somewhere in 00:16:25.280 --> 00:16:28.280 the intervening years, subsequent to us doing that podcast. 00:16:28.640 --> 00:16:34.040 I was at a Gallifrey one convention and somebody from the reconstruction team was there and 00:16:34.300 --> 00:16:39.540 they said in no uncertain terms, they were given a very strict remit. 00:16:40.200 --> 00:16:43.320 They were not allowed to use pictures out of sequence. 00:16:44.220 --> 00:16:48.660 They could only use a set of pictures that they were given, which were presumably these, 00:16:48.920 --> 00:16:56.240 the ones from the doctor who website reconstruction and they were not allowed to do any 00:16:57.300 --> 00:17:03.700 embellishments of any kind that was that was the mandate on high and say you do this and that's it 00:17:03.900 --> 00:17:08.680 and that's why it's so awful and they were you know basically maybe i need to go back and watch 00:17:08.860 --> 00:17:18.019 that because there there is at least one image of the the shark scene and i i don't i mean 00:17:18.640 --> 00:17:22.500 i don't remember what we said about these pictures do these pictures have rounded edges do these 00:17:22.680 --> 00:17:26.699 tele-snaps recreations have rounded edges because that's something we mentioned they were using 00:17:26.990 --> 00:17:31.780 they were using ones that had already been pre-cropped with like pretend like this is on a tv 00:17:32.060 --> 00:17:36.360 screen which was apparently what they were handed so see they probably went back and actually got 00:17:36.500 --> 00:17:43.419 more snaps that they had somewhere in the archive and improved what they were doing but yeah it was 00:17:43.840 --> 00:17:49.800 it was really bad you'd go you'd go a couple scenes three scenes sometimes watching the same 00:17:49.990 --> 00:17:54.900 picture that had nothing to do with what was going on on the screen it was it was uh it's truly 00:17:55.070 --> 00:18:02.100 awful that was an embarrassment and an insult to to try selling that uh the way it was done 00:18:02.720 --> 00:18:11.399 um you know giving it away free with breakfast cereal maybe but not not paying uh for it uh so 00:18:11.420 --> 00:18:15.900 So you thought Underwater Menace was like wonderful, fantastic story. 00:18:16.770 --> 00:18:18.540 Any different now that you can actually see what happened? 00:18:19.260 --> 00:18:19.860 No, no, no. 00:18:20.080 --> 00:18:28.040 I mean, I think the issue was that you couldn't get beyond the recon to realize what a fantastic and wonderful story it was last time around. 00:18:28.090 --> 00:18:31.900 So I'm hoping that the animation has revealed that to you. 00:18:32.060 --> 00:18:34.400 But no, I already knew that. 00:18:34.920 --> 00:18:41.360 It has elevated it from worst Troughton story to mediocre Troughton story. 00:18:42.020 --> 00:18:49.300 so yeah it moved it a long way up the list it's all right it's like i'll take that because a 00:18:49.480 --> 00:18:56.300 mediocre trouton story is brilliant so but i i do think i do think it's highly entertaining 00:18:57.200 --> 00:19:05.640 i still have exactly the same key core problem with it and that is and and we had a long discussion 00:19:05.680 --> 00:19:10.559 we don't need to add on in the future but my key core problem with it is i i have an extreme problem 00:19:10.580 --> 00:19:15.320 with any story where the protagonist wants to kill himself in the process of wiping out 00:19:15.760 --> 00:19:21.400 everything. I mean, he's mad. I get it. At least in this one, he's mad when Davros and the Daleks 00:19:21.520 --> 00:19:27.220 want to wipe out all of existence or when Rassilon wants to wipe out all of time, which are both 00:19:27.840 --> 00:19:34.240 extremely stupid goals. Strategically, very bad. Yeah, we say, oh, yeah, they're mad. But no, 00:19:34.600 --> 00:19:55.480 Zoroff's mad. I mean, he's cuckoos. You knock your, knock your forehead with your fist and no one there kind of mad thing. He's, he's playing it full arm barking mad, but how anybody could not have figured that out is another story. But yeah, but it made a lot more sense. 00:19:56.620 --> 00:20:03.560 It, you know, there are an awful lot of scenes where they're just kind of walking around in this, in this story. 00:20:04.000 --> 00:20:06.160 And so it helped. 00:20:06.650 --> 00:20:07.320 It helped a lot. 00:20:07.660 --> 00:20:15.940 And I think, you know, one of the reasons I watched the animations, because I've already seen the two existing episodes in the past. 00:20:15.970 --> 00:20:17.520 I didn't feel that I need to do that again. 00:20:18.240 --> 00:20:18.440 Sure. 00:20:19.080 --> 00:20:21.360 You know, no eyebrows, no eyebrows. 00:20:21.470 --> 00:20:23.980 We got rid of the eyebrows on the Atlanteans. 00:20:24.380 --> 00:20:25.760 So that's an improvement. 00:20:26.380 --> 00:20:31.640 just just right off the bat and i think the fish you mean the animations an improvement over the 00:20:31.810 --> 00:20:39.380 live action original yes yes you know it's kind of like in uh in an abominable snowmen where they 00:20:39.600 --> 00:20:47.860 decided to actually make the uh tibetan characters look ethnically tibetan instead of white guys in 00:20:48.480 --> 00:20:58.400 yellow face yeah yeah they made the atlanteans look like beings it's this guy with uh eyebrows 00:20:58.660 --> 00:21:04.420 stuck on his face um yeah i mean i said there are there are not there are a number of those 00:21:04.640 --> 00:21:09.640 design decisions that i that i i'm kind of interested in i'm going i'm going to kind of 00:21:09.880 --> 00:21:16.759 leapfrog over a point about the animation in general to dive into a point about the animation 00:21:16.780 --> 00:21:21.260 in particular so my so my take on on the animation here is i'm very pleased to see 00:21:21.900 --> 00:21:29.680 it animated yep there are my kind of rating of the animation overall is it's not the best 00:21:29.900 --> 00:21:35.200 animation that we've ever seen but it's certainly not the worst yeah there are particular issues 00:21:35.920 --> 00:21:43.979 in my view with the color animation and that is to do with some of the changes that have been made 00:21:44.540 --> 00:21:59.920 And I'm not against making those changes. But the problem is that they have changed the colour of the Atlantean people to essentially a sort of grey colour that distinguishes them from human. 00:22:00.700 --> 00:22:07.380 Yeah, I get why they did it. It kind of if you were watching it without the sound, it kind of looks cool. 00:22:07.740 --> 00:22:16.500 It you know, it adds that extra kind of not otherworldly because it's the same world, but that othercontinantly look to them. 00:22:17.040 --> 00:22:26.020 But it doesn't make sense because the dialogue is very clear that they do look human. 00:22:26.120 --> 00:22:34.780 And when they have that initial discussion, they're talking about getting Polly to go and talk to them because she's a linguist. 00:22:35.240 --> 00:22:38.800 But it's not that they look foreign. 00:22:39.200 --> 00:22:43.640 You know, no one could seriously think, oh, it's just that we don't speak Italian or whatever. 00:22:43.800 --> 00:22:46.940 Or, you know, we need Jamie to go and speak Gaelic at them. 00:22:47.540 --> 00:22:52.220 There's something new there from the fact that we're seeing a different color. 00:22:52.880 --> 00:22:55.600 So I don't have a problem. 00:22:55.900 --> 00:22:57.660 I don't have a problem with them changing things. 00:22:57.840 --> 00:23:00.000 I've said in the past, I don't mind them changing things. 00:23:00.640 --> 00:23:07.280 But I think it's important that the dialogue track that they're using and the visuals that we get match. 00:23:07.720 --> 00:23:12.320 So I think when they make changes like that, they need to edit the dialogue. 00:23:12.610 --> 00:23:16.180 They need to cut out the bits that don't fit with the changes that they made. 00:23:16.760 --> 00:23:18.160 See, I don't see that that doesn't fit. 00:23:18.310 --> 00:23:21.500 I mean, these are people who've been living in caves for centuries. 00:23:22.500 --> 00:23:23.940 Of course, they're going to be a bit gray. 00:23:24.740 --> 00:23:28.040 That makes far more sense than, well, they've suddenly got bushy eyebrows. 00:23:28.440 --> 00:23:29.000 Why is that? 00:23:29.540 --> 00:23:30.800 You know, I agree. 00:23:31.120 --> 00:23:31.420 I agree. 00:23:31.480 --> 00:23:34.440 It makes sense in terms of if you're making the design decisions from scratch. 00:23:34.600 --> 00:23:37.260 The problem is that is not what they did. 00:23:38.059 --> 00:23:42.600 And the dialogue from the original reflects the fact that that is not what they did. 00:23:42.660 --> 00:23:44.660 They do not comment on the fact they look great. 00:23:45.100 --> 00:23:47.240 They comment on the fact that they look like foreigners. 00:23:48.120 --> 00:23:53.660 Well, and they I don't know that they would look like foreigners because they had big bushy eyebrows either. 00:23:54.040 --> 00:23:57.560 But they do already think they're in the Mediterranean. 00:23:58.620 --> 00:24:05.020 So they would think they are foreigners to them to begin with. 00:24:05.050 --> 00:24:08.240 They don't think they're in England or Scotland. 00:24:08.860 --> 00:24:12.060 So, I mean, I didn't, you know, they're dressed funny. 00:24:12.880 --> 00:24:15.040 And so they've got a bit of a power. 00:24:15.050 --> 00:24:16.620 I mean, that might be the first thing. 00:24:16.620 --> 00:24:21.780 Oh, look, they're in some quaint ethnic costumes. 00:24:22.500 --> 00:24:23.100 They're foreign. 00:24:23.520 --> 00:24:29.840 I don't have any problem with the idea that they just assume that they're not English. 00:24:30.780 --> 00:24:40.640 But, I mean, they weren't so gray as to be, you know, they were, you know, green or something where you'd go, oh, those are definitely aliens from another planet. 00:24:40.800 --> 00:24:43.300 They're just cave dwellers. 00:24:43.360 --> 00:24:44.960 They look distinctly different. 00:24:45.310 --> 00:24:51.760 They do not look like you could mistake them for any member of the TARDIS crew. 00:24:52.520 --> 00:25:10.640 And so even if you give it a pass on the fact that, you know, they make the comment about them just looking like foreigners, there's then that where where the doctor dresses in the the Atlantean robes and the priest tells him in these robes, no one will challenge you. 00:25:11.300 --> 00:25:13.620 Well, they might actually because you don't look great. 00:25:14.400 --> 00:25:14.900 They were for that. 00:25:15.000 --> 00:25:17.120 They wouldn't have challenged him in the black and white version. 00:25:17.920 --> 00:25:19.620 They wouldn't have challenged him in the black and white version. 00:25:20.020 --> 00:25:31.360 Well, I think Troughton's eyebrows are relatively bushy, actually, but I do also think that the eyebrow thing is like, it's not, is nothing like as obvious. 00:25:32.460 --> 00:25:39.880 The skin tone thing is a very, is a kind of very prominent feature. 00:25:40.090 --> 00:25:42.440 It's much more obvious than the eyebrows were. 00:25:43.040 --> 00:25:49.180 and I think that it would be hard to hard for them to believe that he wouldn't be challenged 00:25:49.960 --> 00:25:55.560 or at least for them to kind of question oh well you know is this going to be all right again it's 00:25:55.560 --> 00:26:02.420 not commented on because in the original version that wasn't the that wasn't a design choice that 00:26:02.480 --> 00:26:08.360 they made it's not a it's not a kind of criticism of the design choice it's just if you're going to 00:26:08.380 --> 00:26:13.100 make these changes you've got to make sure that the soundtrack and the dialogue matches up to it 00:26:13.480 --> 00:26:17.880 and they needed to make edits and it's 100 not an issue if you watch it in black and white 00:26:18.420 --> 00:26:21.740 so the black and white version of the animation is absolutely fine 00:26:23.940 --> 00:26:30.680 well all right eyebrows aside what other changes in animation since we're on that topic spring to 00:26:30.980 --> 00:26:37.380 mind if any you mean change changes from the live action to the yeah to this yeah this version well 00:26:37.400 --> 00:26:43.220 I mean, mentioning the kind of Atlantean costumes, I think the headwear is now distinctly inferior. 00:26:44.120 --> 00:26:53.680 But I understand that some of those, there are those considerations that you have to make when it's animation. 00:26:54.400 --> 00:26:54.940 Too much detail. 00:26:55.310 --> 00:26:55.500 Yeah. 00:26:55.590 --> 00:26:56.200 And that's fine. 00:26:56.960 --> 00:27:08.380 It doesn't, it doesn't, the new headwear is good and it's better to make it different than to try and do a kind of obviously inferior copy. 00:27:08.440 --> 00:27:11.400 I don't think it's as good, but, you know, that's fine. 00:27:12.040 --> 00:27:23.020 I also think that the octopus is a good choice, like not trying to do the more complicated fish, but have something in there doing its business. 00:27:23.360 --> 00:27:25.700 And was it pulling the top off a Dalek Emperor model? 00:27:26.540 --> 00:27:29.160 I didn't see that. 00:27:29.400 --> 00:27:30.880 No, I couldn't. 00:27:30.980 --> 00:27:31.620 In the animation? 00:27:32.060 --> 00:27:37.760 No, I wondered if they'd reused that from somewhere else. 00:27:38.560 --> 00:27:39.440 I do have a question. 00:27:40.360 --> 00:27:41.480 I do have a question. 00:27:41.520 --> 00:27:44.720 And that is, was the octopus even in the original? 00:27:46.060 --> 00:27:46.800 Well, no, that's the point. 00:27:47.520 --> 00:27:54.340 The octopus relates to kind of replaces the sort of spiky fish thing in the tank. 00:27:54.800 --> 00:28:06.280 Did the spiky fish thing in the tank suddenly come close to maybe almost pulling, pushing the lever down for Zaroff at the end? Or was that just made up completely? 00:28:06.900 --> 00:28:12.160 Well, that's an interesting question, isn't it? Because episode four doesn't exist. 00:28:12.920 --> 00:28:16.580 Yeah. And man, did we have problems with it? And this does sort it out. 00:28:17.180 --> 00:28:25.720 so i tell you we did uh i think i was closer in my interpretation of what happened than than you 00:28:25.820 --> 00:28:31.140 were sorry that you can go back and listen and admit well you mean the animation is closer to 00:28:31.280 --> 00:28:35.900 your interpretation of things than my interpretation of things but it's the animators interpretation of 00:28:35.940 --> 00:28:41.260 things that we're seeing presumably well i'm guessing they had a script to go by to see what 00:28:41.260 --> 00:28:46.680 was going on but it had to do with the we know they didn't stick to that necessarily it had to 00:28:47.660 --> 00:28:54.040 if it was your way then it didn't still didn't make any sense and that is the bit where zarov 00:28:54.720 --> 00:29:03.680 locks himself in a cage then the doc ben runs off and pretends to run the doctor does something i 00:29:03.780 --> 00:29:09.320 was thinking the doctor managed to open the cage it turns out in the animation anyway that that 00:29:09.550 --> 00:29:16.660 you know ben slips in when zarov comes out to turn on the lights that ben closes it and runs back out 00:29:16.680 --> 00:29:17.740 and then it gets trapped. 00:29:18.060 --> 00:29:20.100 You thought Zarath was on the side 00:29:20.380 --> 00:29:21.440 with the plunger, 00:29:21.490 --> 00:29:22.560 which didn't make any sense, 00:29:23.240 --> 00:29:25.580 and I was sure he had to be on the side that wasn't. 00:29:26.100 --> 00:29:26.980 I think by the end of it, 00:29:26.980 --> 00:29:27.800 I had convinced you, 00:29:28.220 --> 00:29:31.100 but the scene is so bad in the reconstruction. 00:29:31.100 --> 00:29:31.900 I don't remember any of this. 00:29:32.800 --> 00:29:34.120 It's so bad in the reconstruction 00:29:34.380 --> 00:29:35.740 that you just can't... 00:29:36.100 --> 00:29:38.640 But no, Zarath only died 00:29:38.860 --> 00:29:40.680 because Zarath refused to leave. 00:29:41.420 --> 00:29:42.260 And there was the, 00:29:42.320 --> 00:29:43.940 is Zarath trapped behind the gate, 00:29:44.160 --> 00:29:47.680 where is Zara just too stubborn to leave? 00:29:47.820 --> 00:29:51.220 And he definitely seems too stubborn to leave in this. 00:29:51.220 --> 00:29:53.200 And it doesn't make any sense if he was trapped with a switch 00:29:53.480 --> 00:29:56.260 because he would have just, you know, pushed the switch. 00:29:57.399 --> 00:30:01.780 But yeah, anyway, I don't throw one out there. 00:30:02.840 --> 00:30:05.460 In general, I think it was a lot of improvement. 00:30:06.180 --> 00:30:09.760 You know, the market isn't the size of my bathroom 00:30:10.540 --> 00:30:11.340 that they're trying to run around. 00:30:12.340 --> 00:30:14.000 All right, maybe my living room. 00:30:14.460 --> 00:30:24.280 And so that's an improvement that in general, things look bigger, more expansive, kind of viably sized. 00:30:25.060 --> 00:30:27.700 I think they did the temple very poorly. 00:30:28.340 --> 00:30:36.340 I feel like in the episodes where you can see it and and a couple of and I did watch the behind the scenes and stuff. 00:30:36.540 --> 00:30:49.320 So I have actually recently seen some of the reconstructed stuff that like the hidden passage behind the temple was a little more credibly hidden than the way. 00:30:50.060 --> 00:30:51.460 It wasn't very credibly hidden. 00:30:51.660 --> 00:30:52.240 Don't get me wrong. 00:30:52.900 --> 00:31:03.880 But then it is portrayed in the animation where, you know, it's just they keep popping out and there's people all around them and they pull their head back behind it. 00:31:04.060 --> 00:31:08.940 It's like, at least it was kind of in the shadows in the original. 00:31:09.620 --> 00:31:12.040 Here it's just right front and center of the room. 00:31:12.220 --> 00:31:17.540 It's like, I don't, I think they could have done better with giving the impression that 00:31:17.580 --> 00:31:19.760 there was a secret passage back there. 00:31:19.920 --> 00:31:23.300 But yeah, I mean, I appreciate the fact that I actually know what was going on with the 00:31:23.440 --> 00:31:28.540 shark sacrifice and the planks and the tipping of the boards and all that stuff. 00:31:28.820 --> 00:31:28.880 Okay. 00:31:29.540 --> 00:31:30.340 Now it makes sense. 00:31:30.940 --> 00:31:40.980 They actually did, they did add a little bit of tipping, which I suspect was animation in the recon for that, just to give an indication of what's going on. But yeah, it definitely helps. 00:31:41.220 --> 00:31:51.900 Okay. I'm almost, I'm almost certain they didn't, well, no, they must, I don't know. Didn't want to go back and watch the recons, the old ones, but I don't know. 00:31:51.900 --> 00:31:52.260 No, no, no. 00:31:52.340 --> 00:31:53.160 They said they didn't do that. 00:31:53.160 --> 00:31:53.240 They said they didn't do that. 00:31:53.340 --> 00:31:53.720 They said they didn't do that. 00:31:57.940 --> 00:32:00.720 They said they didn't do 00:32:01.260 --> 00:32:10.680 It wasn't a major thing, but they didn't show as clearly as they might have done what was going on. 00:32:11.500 --> 00:32:17.340 And that's the scene when Polly is being taken down in the lift. 00:32:19.360 --> 00:32:22.780 And there's this dialogue which says they tied her up. 00:32:23.280 --> 00:32:28.980 You, I don't know what we would have got in the original part one, because obviously it's missing. 00:32:29.680 --> 00:32:36.220 But you would imagine there might have been some shot of her, you know, rope around her wrist or something like that. 00:32:36.340 --> 00:32:47.500 But we don't even see her hands are behind her back until a later shot, which I didn't totally understand because given they show it, why they couldn't have re-sequenced that. 00:32:47.750 --> 00:32:57.980 But that was an instance where I thought the animation didn't show us what was going on as clearly as it might have done. 00:32:58.980 --> 00:33:03.520 But clearly better than it did do without with the episode gone completely. 00:33:03.800 --> 00:33:23.480 One of the other changes that I felt was quite a positive change was the fish people costumes, which are kind of like up several grades in terms of style and sexiness. 00:33:23.660 --> 00:33:33.260 because the original costumes they're they're fine or whatever but the the new kind of design has 00:33:33.820 --> 00:33:41.240 a lot more flair this kind of the the strapless dresses and they seem to fit a lot better and 00:33:41.360 --> 00:33:45.240 everything which obviously you know you can much more easily do when you're drawing them 00:33:45.820 --> 00:33:52.299 um but that that that for me was a definite upgrade so that you know that counteracts the 00:33:52.320 --> 00:33:57.900 downgrade in the atlantean head headwear as far as i'm concerned i'm gonna say i don't think that 00:33:58.460 --> 00:34:03.860 sexy was the word that would have ever come from my mind for describing the new the the new gods 00:34:04.080 --> 00:34:12.639 but oh okay uh i yeah i don't know i didn't think they were to prove fish people yeah yeah i guess 00:34:12.820 --> 00:34:16.859 maybe if you live near the ocean that might be a thing i don't know that must be what it is 00:34:19.839 --> 00:34:29.760 um they still a little bit we i think they kind of sort of tried to almost ape the wire work 00:34:30.290 --> 00:34:35.940 a little bit in the swimming when they did it now did you want you watched the animation even 00:34:36.230 --> 00:34:41.259 you did not watch any of the originals this time yeah yeah i re-watched that sequence i wanted to 00:34:41.280 --> 00:34:47.320 watch that again i presume you you went back to that as well i did not watch the original sequence 00:34:47.620 --> 00:34:55.580 except in as much as i saw it in some of the behind the scenes stuff on that so and i did 00:34:56.159 --> 00:35:04.400 i don't know i i felt like when i was watching the animation that they certainly did not go okay 00:35:04.540 --> 00:35:10.159 how would fish people really be moving around and they still kind of held to that sort of 00:35:10.840 --> 00:35:17.660 staged uh positioning that that you'd get with the wire work so i thought it was a 00:35:18.100 --> 00:35:22.720 funny i think i did get a little bit better idea you know about that they were having a fish 00:35:22.920 --> 00:35:29.400 conversation you know we need to go on strike i would i don't i didn't think they were trying to 00:35:30.160 --> 00:35:35.659 to necessarily copy the technicalities of it but i do think maybe they were trying to copy 00:35:35.680 --> 00:35:40.200 the aesthetics of it the aesthetic there's something yeah yeah there's something quite 00:35:41.220 --> 00:35:47.060 there's something quite memorable about that sequence it i mean it could be memorable because 00:35:47.110 --> 00:35:56.060 it is so obviously it's it's obvious how they staged it and yet it's also i mean it's obviously 00:35:56.920 --> 00:36:04.599 done with wires as you say and it's the kind of thing that you could see done in a theater 00:36:05.320 --> 00:36:10.820 but done in a theater it would have a terrific effect because seeing someone flying around is 00:36:11.380 --> 00:36:19.320 is kind of impressive and so it would be with live television in 1967 or whenever this was 00:36:20.000 --> 00:36:27.420 but i think that the animated version you didn't you didn't feel like you were watching 00:36:28.050 --> 00:36:33.619 air breathing people pretending to be fish it felt much more underwater so it yes the animation 00:36:33.640 --> 00:36:38.480 definitely added something to it without losing that aesthetic so i actually felt quite positive 00:36:38.660 --> 00:36:44.280 towards that animation well i i didn't yeah no i it's it's an improvement off the original but 00:36:44.340 --> 00:36:51.800 what i'm getting at is you know if i see fish i envision you know even when they are still 00:36:52.540 --> 00:36:59.119 they suddenly flip away suddenly and quickly yeah and you don't get any of that with the fish people 00:36:59.740 --> 00:37:07.040 right they're still sort of they're still sort of floating more so than fishing i guess no but 00:37:08.380 --> 00:37:14.760 yeah they don't look like they've got the kind of fish equipment to do some of that stuff yeah but 00:37:14.760 --> 00:37:20.320 if you're going for the look if they were doing it modern in something modern they would definitely 00:37:20.600 --> 00:37:28.339 give them the fish feel to it not just the fish look if you want to call that the fish look well 00:37:28.360 --> 00:37:35.060 yeah yeah maybe with disney money maybe with it maybe we'll see if we get a an underwater return 00:37:35.070 --> 00:37:43.320 to atlantis yeah oh boy return for that again yeah uh well they've rebuilt it you know they're 00:37:43.320 --> 00:37:48.360 going to rebuild it at the end and so the doctor could return and see the civilization that was 00:37:48.450 --> 00:37:55.880 built after his destroying it kind of thing it could be you know it's like a return to scarrow 00:37:56.200 --> 00:38:02.260 return to atlantis because yeah sure they've destroyed atlantis a couple times but you know 00:38:02.500 --> 00:38:07.800 once they destroyed atlantis back in antiquity and then this this one they destroyed it in the future 00:38:08.640 --> 00:38:16.620 back then and so you know they could return atlantis in the in the 20 22nd century where 00:38:16.740 --> 00:38:23.339 they've teamed up with the silurians to take over the world we were digging new caves and we found 00:38:23.820 --> 00:38:29.920 that's what that's a free idea for the doctor who uh production team that they want it no i will 00:38:30.220 --> 00:38:40.340 make no claim to remind me if you remember we haven't uh we did not do the color version of 00:38:40.400 --> 00:38:46.600 power of the daleks is that right i think they never did we never did no we never did yeah okay 00:38:47.060 --> 00:38:51.020 so i've i've not seen it because i think the first one they came out with black was black and white 00:38:51.040 --> 00:38:57.540 right in the animation and and that's the one they did well they were they released what they did was 00:38:57.680 --> 00:39:02.800 they they they released it many times it was a slightly it was a slight change in the process so 00:39:03.120 --> 00:39:10.900 the power of the daleks was the first animation after a long gap sounds familiar and they animated 00:39:11.080 --> 00:39:17.240 it in black and white but after power of the daleks everything else was animated in color 00:39:17.820 --> 00:39:21.040 and then they produced a black and white version what they did with power of the daleks was 00:39:21.500 --> 00:39:25.540 they actually also produced a color version so they'd animated it in black and white 00:39:25.960 --> 00:39:28.840 they then produced a color version and that was what was released 00:39:29.270 --> 00:39:34.800 the both black and white and color versions of it i thought those were two separate releases but 00:39:35.460 --> 00:39:40.980 all right no maybe there was a second there was a second release of power of the daleks with 00:39:41.120 --> 00:39:47.220 improved animation which we have also not looked at we have not looked at that we we did look at 00:39:47.240 --> 00:39:52.820 power of the daleks the animated one of the animals we just i i may be wrong but i saw we'd 00:39:52.820 --> 00:39:58.160 only looked at the black and white version well if there was a color version i would have watched it 00:39:58.740 --> 00:40:05.100 i'm sure of that but i i just feel like i didn't have that choice but again i i could be 00:40:05.300 --> 00:40:13.660 misremembering but where i'm going at that is okay did they use the really dull credits that 00:40:13.680 --> 00:40:21.700 they use this time so i got i got a note about that saying how much i like the credits this time 00:40:22.400 --> 00:40:29.820 but i think the like the point about it is this is the first time we've seen that title sequence 00:40:30.380 --> 00:40:35.940 in color isn't it well unless they did power of the daleks that way see that was my well power 00:40:36.000 --> 00:40:40.780 of the daleks the color version has has the titles in black and white so you go you go from 00:40:41.340 --> 00:40:48.540 the black and white titles in in into color and obviously the macro terror coming after this 00:40:49.050 --> 00:40:57.160 has got the later title credit sequence hasn't it i don't know if the original had because i haven't 00:40:57.260 --> 00:41:03.720 seen the original as macro terror but by then by the time i think by the time they'd released the 00:41:03.720 --> 00:41:10.040 macro terror they'd already animated some of the later serials and colored the later title sequence 00:41:10.740 --> 00:41:12.520 I mean I know you probably don't 00:41:12.760 --> 00:41:14.500 I don't remember on our conversation but 00:41:14.980 --> 00:41:16.020 for their choice 00:41:16.680 --> 00:41:18.620 of colorizing the 00:41:18.920 --> 00:41:20.840 trout and face credits 00:41:21.700 --> 00:41:22.740 using the same 00:41:22.940 --> 00:41:24.880 technique that they did with the Pertwee stuff 00:41:25.080 --> 00:41:26.760 with basically overlaying a 00:41:26.840 --> 00:41:28.720 color wheel feels as 00:41:29.220 --> 00:41:30.900 authentic as you're gonna get 00:41:31.400 --> 00:41:32.720 if you were trying to do color 00:41:33.480 --> 00:41:33.960 so 00:41:34.940 --> 00:41:36.860 I was fine with that 00:41:37.040 --> 00:41:38.780 choice you know instead of them like 00:41:38.800 --> 00:41:43.180 animating the various colors into the swirls and whatnot they just said no no this is how they did 00:41:43.190 --> 00:41:51.320 it in 70 bop we'll just we'll copy that and i i like that choice in this one they just tinted it 00:41:51.430 --> 00:41:58.420 blue so it looks like that weird color you get off of a black and white tv like 00:42:01.180 --> 00:42:05.400 yeah no i but i don't think i don't think the color wheel version of it would have worked 00:42:05.820 --> 00:42:12.720 i'm not sure that i don't know i'd have gone with blue like old television blue but i don't know 00:42:13.340 --> 00:42:19.140 that's fair i don't know i just like it i just thought yeah it's kind of yeah i it was it was 00:42:19.180 --> 00:42:24.260 probably the thing about the color that i like the most because i mean i obviously i have a 00:42:24.480 --> 00:42:30.780 particular issue with the changes in color creating contradictions as a dialogue but i also did think 00:42:30.800 --> 00:42:39.620 generally the color was quite inferior to the later season four episode i'm not wild about the 00:42:39.700 --> 00:42:45.420 color in power of the daleks but i think i probably did admit in some of the discussions 00:42:46.140 --> 00:42:49.680 when i particularly remember thinking this about the macro terror and possibly evil of the daleks 00:42:50.300 --> 00:42:58.520 that the color was very subtly done it was atmospheric and it actually added something 00:42:58.560 --> 00:43:00.260 and I was enjoying watching it in colour. 00:43:01.180 --> 00:43:04.500 This one, even if I hadn't been annoyed 00:43:04.780 --> 00:43:08.760 by the plot-specific changes the colour implemented, 00:43:09.520 --> 00:43:12.080 I still think I would rather watch it in black and white. 00:43:12.660 --> 00:43:14.480 I didn't think the colours were great, 00:43:15.080 --> 00:43:16.560 but the titles were the exception. 00:43:16.570 --> 00:43:17.940 I liked the colours of the title. 00:43:18.460 --> 00:43:19.160 Because there weren't any. 00:43:20.680 --> 00:43:21.980 There was, but there really wasn't. 00:43:22.700 --> 00:43:26.140 It felt like it fitted and it felt like, 00:43:26.180 --> 00:43:27.980 if you're going to stick with the original, 00:43:28.640 --> 00:43:34.480 titles and obviously they they could have just ditched the original titles then it then i think 00:43:34.660 --> 00:43:39.700 you've got to go with something that's relatively simple and i i think i mean you're not disagreeing 00:43:39.780 --> 00:43:43.420 with that but you're saying a different color would have been better and i think i don't know 00:43:43.800 --> 00:43:50.820 yes i don't know about the episode i was fine i was fine with the colors in this story uh as they 00:43:50.840 --> 00:43:58.660 chose them and i am taking this on the following situation so for example in evil of the daleks 00:43:59.500 --> 00:44:05.500 um there were some very brightly colored scenes like in the tricolor cafe and i went up but when 00:44:05.500 --> 00:44:12.840 they're in the house they've gone kind of moody and because it is sort of moody and sort of uh 00:44:13.980 --> 00:44:20.800 dark and and that that's the feel of the episode that's that that is keeping the spirit if there 00:44:20.820 --> 00:44:27.620 is anything we will say about the underwater menace is that it is as over the top as it can 00:44:27.940 --> 00:44:35.900 get in this story and so bright loud colors don't bother me it's like yeah you know somebody was 00:44:36.040 --> 00:44:41.500 working on this script and they said yeah let's just go for it but they're not i could they're 00:44:41.600 --> 00:44:50.780 not that loud it's that's not loud maybe not the right word really they they are colorful they have 00:44:50.800 --> 00:44:57.280 it's more like it's more like the i don't know if this will translate for the for the transatlantic 00:44:57.540 --> 00:45:03.580 listeners but it's more like the the kind of the macro terror faceless ones evil as the daleks 00:45:03.800 --> 00:45:11.360 they're all pharaoh and ball and this is dulux oh no we don't speak welsh okay it's a question of 00:45:11.460 --> 00:45:21.980 taste i did i thought that the color choices were tasteful and aesthetic in those that the earlier 00:45:22.340 --> 00:45:28.960 animations compared to this one i i think this was closer to fury of the deep let's say but the 00:45:29.240 --> 00:45:35.940 interesting thing about that is that it's is is the as far as i'm aware because this is this is 00:45:35.960 --> 00:45:43.080 Anne-Marie Walsh animating this one so she was also the director on Mako Tara Face the Swan's 00:45:43.080 --> 00:45:49.260 Evil of the Daleks but I guess where this also takes us to is the general animation quality 00:45:50.080 --> 00:45:58.180 and it's a little bit of a disappointment to me that when we've got such a big chunk of season 00:45:58.260 --> 00:46:06.480 four animated in a sort of continuous chunk of season four animated with what i think is a very 00:46:06.640 --> 00:46:14.320 kind of high quality and consistent animation style and this precedes that lengthy chunk 00:46:15.060 --> 00:46:21.980 they've shifted back from doing the 3d quite sophisticated 3d animation to doing completely 00:46:22.080 --> 00:46:30.460 2D animation so it's not the same style at all and it's not bad I mean apart from the things 00:46:30.470 --> 00:46:35.120 I've discussed I think it kind of shows you what's going on and it's you know it's it's not 00:46:35.470 --> 00:46:43.900 horrible ugly drawings like some of the animations but it's not it's not a level that they've been 00:46:44.200 --> 00:46:48.980 hitting and I you know I kind of still think the invasion is the best animation ever but 00:46:49.460 --> 00:46:58.280 I did think that the season four animations were I mean they were different because they were doing 00:46:58.290 --> 00:47:04.180 this kind of 3d thing but they were getting to a level of quality that was kind of approaching 00:47:04.620 --> 00:47:11.500 what they got with the invasion and this this ain't that it really isn't that nothing in this 00:47:11.740 --> 00:47:18.359 animation triggered my response no it's fine it's fine it's fine it was perfectly fine and I I 00:47:18.380 --> 00:47:25.840 literally have zero notes other than about the animation except a snarky comment 00:47:28.220 --> 00:47:36.300 about the fact that i would imagine i don't know but i would imagine that the sequence where 00:47:36.960 --> 00:47:45.080 polly can't go up the whatever at the beginning climbing up the whatever was too much for her 00:47:45.100 --> 00:47:51.420 was probably equally as lame as Polly not being able to walk up the steps 00:47:51.980 --> 00:47:56.340 or look basically like steps of rock in the animation. 00:47:57.340 --> 00:47:59.300 It's like, really, Polly? Really? 00:48:00.040 --> 00:48:03.860 They don't look like they're really climbing, per se. 00:48:04.160 --> 00:48:05.940 They're just sort of walking. 00:48:06.200 --> 00:48:10.640 And then I thought, yeah, in the studio it probably looks just as bad, just different. 00:48:11.640 --> 00:48:12.540 It possibly did. 00:48:12.720 --> 00:48:16.500 And I think we've complained quite a lot about walking in the animations. 00:48:17.060 --> 00:48:21.900 And I don't think that as it goes, walking in this is at all bad. 00:48:22.510 --> 00:48:22.920 And so. 00:48:23.660 --> 00:48:24.480 And there's a lot of it. 00:48:25.250 --> 00:48:26.200 There is a lot of it. 00:48:26.200 --> 00:48:31.340 And so in a way, it kind of serves, it serves that basic function of showing you what's going on. 00:48:32.560 --> 00:48:37.100 Doing so in a relatively kind of pleasing way, visually speaking. 00:48:38.300 --> 00:48:45.100 And without any kind of jarring inconsistencies or without kind of... 00:48:45.140 --> 00:48:48.080 I assume there is a much lower budget on this animation. 00:48:48.460 --> 00:48:50.220 That's why they've gone for the 2D or whatever. 00:48:50.500 --> 00:48:51.740 I think that's a good choice. 00:48:51.900 --> 00:48:57.900 If you've got less money, then what you should do is go for something that looks consistent 00:48:59.300 --> 00:49:04.120 and where you can produce something serviceable within your budget. 00:49:04.260 --> 00:49:05.320 And I think that's what they've done. 00:49:05.440 --> 00:49:15.000 And it's just a pity that they didn't have the budget that they obviously did somehow have with all of those other 3D, more impressive animations. 00:49:16.120 --> 00:49:24.500 Well, if they if they could stick to this level of animation and get done with the rest of them, I would be absolutely fine. 00:49:24.620 --> 00:49:36.880 And I will just add, since I've got it here in front of me at the moment, that if they were to animate three more stories, all of Troughton would be filled in. 00:49:37.520 --> 00:49:40.160 Actually, two more stories, all of Troughton would be filled in. 00:49:40.760 --> 00:49:43.840 Three more stories, all of season four and five would be filled in. 00:49:44.400 --> 00:49:47.340 So I'm thinking there's the Highlanders and Wheel in Space. 00:49:47.570 --> 00:49:48.140 Is that it? 00:49:48.720 --> 00:49:49.460 For Troughton, yes. 00:49:50.100 --> 00:49:51.320 And the Smugglers for Hartnell. 00:49:51.980 --> 00:49:52.260 Ooh. 00:49:52.980 --> 00:49:53.840 I know, they're close. 00:49:54.340 --> 00:49:57.720 They're close, and it seems like Wheel in Space is a no-brainer. 00:49:58.440 --> 00:50:01.820 I know, I can't believe they haven't done it, because they already did 10 minutes of it. 00:50:02.340 --> 00:50:03.500 I'm sure we've talked about it. 00:50:04.220 --> 00:50:09.820 Yeah, the whole thing with the Highlanders and the, oh, it's a historical blah blah blah, and costumes and whatnot. 00:50:10.320 --> 00:50:13.580 I'm not buying that argument that it's that big of an impediment. 00:50:14.260 --> 00:50:20.400 However, the Wheel in Space just makes no sense whatsoever that they haven't done that one. 00:50:20.440 --> 00:50:22.460 it's a big important 00:50:23.440 --> 00:50:24.180 Cyberman story 00:50:25.640 --> 00:50:26.380 so like 00:50:26.640 --> 00:50:27.720 why has that one been done 00:50:27.720 --> 00:50:30.400 well it's a big important Zoe Herriot story let's get our priorities 00:50:30.660 --> 00:50:31.840 right that too 00:50:32.560 --> 00:50:34.200 that too but I mean you know 00:50:34.240 --> 00:50:36.200 and then you're done with season 5 and you can release 00:50:36.300 --> 00:50:38.200 the blu-rays and actually have 00:50:38.520 --> 00:50:39.360 everything on there 00:50:40.480 --> 00:50:42.220 and not only that you can have 00:50:42.400 --> 00:50:42.960 the entire 00:50:44.420 --> 00:50:45.660 season 5 done 00:50:46.580 --> 00:50:48.480 behind the sofa on the blu-ray extras 00:50:49.020 --> 00:50:50.400 and we can 00:50:50.420 --> 00:50:56.920 see how they respond to uh to all that have we i don't i i don't watch all the behind the sofa 00:50:57.060 --> 00:51:03.180 things but have we had any where they've i know as good we haven't shada oh shada they've they've 00:51:03.540 --> 00:51:08.380 they've looked they've watched a an animation and what did they make of the animation bit 00:51:08.730 --> 00:51:15.140 well let's see so the people watching it were colin baker and matthew waterhouse uh uh katie 00:51:15.160 --> 00:51:25.420 manning and uh nicola bryant and oh graham harper uh and i can't think of the other two people's 00:51:25.420 --> 00:51:35.120 names but it's the fx guy that does all those things and the costumer and i don't know i have 00:51:35.120 --> 00:51:41.460 the subtitles turned on and uh because you know they're speaking english and it covers up the uh 00:51:41.480 --> 00:51:46.480 the names and i i don't but he's you'd know him he's one of the model makers he's kind of 00:51:47.140 --> 00:51:53.340 dark curly brown long hair oh i did the model for that or my you know i i hated canine that guy 00:51:53.860 --> 00:52:02.440 and like and then the the costumer for i think that season uh the woman i can't think of her name 00:52:03.060 --> 00:52:08.880 might be a june or something um and they went into the animation you know you see stuff and 00:52:08.900 --> 00:52:13.840 then they cut into the animated scenes and they quite liked it they they they thought wow this 00:52:13.920 --> 00:52:21.720 the fans must love this you know this to have this back and and they they they had no problem at all 00:52:21.860 --> 00:52:29.060 i think they've some were surprised they didn't even know the animation was coming so yeah like 00:52:29.220 --> 00:52:33.720 it was it worked uh it worked pretty well uh i think their biggest complaint was that lala didn't 00:52:33.740 --> 00:52:39.720 look as good as lala looks it's like that animation of her is not very good yeah but uh yeah 00:52:40.340 --> 00:52:50.060 yeah so yeah we're we're we're close uh we are really close to closing out you know come on 00:52:50.360 --> 00:52:55.460 you've got all that disney money compensating for doctor who now and then you're going to be 00:52:55.680 --> 00:52:59.720 selling a bunch of doctor who merchandise you should be getting some revenue stream in now 00:53:00.260 --> 00:53:07.220 let's let's get this done you're not spending any money making doctor who now make doctor who dvds 00:53:07.420 --> 00:53:14.920 blu-rays um i think again taking care of things that were really awful in the original uh 00:53:15.300 --> 00:53:21.600 reconstruction awful in the original reconstruction the cliffhangers are uh much better in this one 00:53:22.100 --> 00:53:27.800 in the animated version hey i even though there's nothing in the world can stop me now can't really 00:53:27.820 --> 00:53:34.380 be improved on but yes apart from that fair point you know the the you're not turning me into a fish 00:53:34.580 --> 00:53:41.060 and uh those did work better uh there was there was a little bit of like oh i should watch the 00:53:41.060 --> 00:53:49.200 next episode at that point which there was not in the uh reconstructions my goodness they really 00:53:49.440 --> 00:53:56.260 really sidelined jamie and polly in episode four didn't they yes like it's not a great story for 00:53:56.280 --> 00:54:04.460 polly no no and you know and i saw this in the behind the scenes talking and and we did discuss 00:54:04.700 --> 00:54:09.640 it a little bit but it was when i watched the behind the scenes piece and they showed a couple 00:54:09.740 --> 00:54:15.820 clips of it it was so much more obvious that they have just taken the lines for ben and polly 00:54:16.220 --> 00:54:21.900 and shuffled them around and added jamie into the mix so yeah that's kind of understandable 00:54:21.900 --> 00:54:31.760 and in some cases it's like person a says something person b replies to something and 00:54:31.840 --> 00:54:38.340 then person c counterpoints it but that definitely should have been person a following up like no i'm 00:54:38.420 --> 00:54:44.000 defending my thought or whatever but but it isn't because it's just three different people and i'm 00:54:44.040 --> 00:54:49.279 not entirely sure they just gave ben's lines to jamie i think they gave some of polly's lines to 00:54:49.300 --> 00:54:54.380 jamie's too i think they just shook him up put him in a box wrote him down put him in a box on 00:54:54.460 --> 00:54:59.100 slips of paper and then pulled him out and then said okay you you you you you you there we go 00:54:59.800 --> 00:55:05.680 read him in this order i don't care who says what it it does it does come off rather badly that way 00:55:05.820 --> 00:55:15.780 the final sequence makes a lot more sense um but the you know that's what actually i i recall it 00:55:15.800 --> 00:55:23.220 being pretty bad ending but at least it made a little more sense uh in this one let's see i 00:55:23.360 --> 00:55:27.940 didn't remember the line about what do you say what's that in meters when they were talking to 00:55:27.940 --> 00:55:38.760 the future shipwreck people i guess they'd gone metric thought oh cool uh and uh yeah i think 00:55:38.880 --> 00:55:42.960 that's all i have on this i don't think it's worse than horns of nyman anymore 00:55:44.560 --> 00:55:45.900 I should say no 00:55:49.100 --> 00:55:49.920 that's my 00:55:50.670 --> 00:55:51.680 yeah that's my 00:55:51.940 --> 00:55:54.320 I still do not think that this is an 00:55:54.520 --> 00:55:55.820 homage to You Only Live Twice 00:55:56.480 --> 00:55:58.320 it's only better than You Only Live Twice 00:55:59.020 --> 00:55:59.540 it's 00:56:00.160 --> 00:56:01.140 that was your idea 00:56:03.460 --> 00:56:03.980 I'm 00:56:04.330 --> 00:56:04.840 done with this 00:56:06.140 --> 00:56:08.260 I'm glad it's back I appreciate 00:56:08.330 --> 00:56:10.200 the fact it now falls into the 00:56:10.400 --> 00:56:12.160 rank of watchable Doctor Who stories 00:56:12.180 --> 00:56:14.380 which it was not in that 00:56:14.620 --> 00:56:15.520 recreation of that original 00:56:17.040 --> 00:56:18.400 I had it on my shelf 00:56:18.470 --> 00:56:20.440 but it was never ever going to be watched again 00:56:20.440 --> 00:56:22.380 I mean there are Doctor Who 00:56:22.620 --> 00:56:24.140 stories that have never been missing 00:56:24.380 --> 00:56:26.500 that I wouldn't classify as watchable 00:56:26.780 --> 00:56:27.740 but yes 00:56:29.000 --> 00:56:29.940 this definitely 00:56:30.840 --> 00:56:32.340 this definitely makes it 00:56:32.920 --> 00:56:33.840 even more 00:56:34.400 --> 00:56:35.100 fun to watch 00:56:35.740 --> 00:56:38.540 so when it is available in the United States 00:56:38.800 --> 00:56:40.260 it's not, it is currently available 00:56:40.280 --> 00:56:46.440 in the uk it will be available in the u.s eventually um if you're a doctor who fan 00:56:46.670 --> 00:56:53.560 give the bbc your money show them you care it's such i'd like to send them back my old copy 00:56:55.900 --> 00:57:02.980 with a note it says you owe me for this i want my money back on this one now that you've put 00:57:02.980 --> 00:57:09.540 out a proper version this was a con do you have anything else on it i do not 00:57:10.180 --> 00:57:30.540 All right. Well, we do not have anything. This should go out in December of 2023. That is our expected release date during Who-cember. So we are, if my schedule works out right, we have already done all of the 60th anniversary specials. 00:57:30.560 --> 00:57:38.920 specials and uh next week we're looking at the church of uh church on ruby road for um for the 00:57:39.500 --> 00:57:49.520 finish of who simber yes the final episode of the month of dotty yeah so uh siren thank you for 00:57:49.660 --> 00:57:55.580 joining me it's a pleasure as always and listeners i do hope you'll join us all again next time 00:57:56.140 --> 00:57:56.940 on Fusion Patrol. 00:58:00.020 --> 00:58:02.240 You've been listening to Fusion Patrol. 00:58:02.960 --> 00:58:03.520 Thanks for listening. 00:58:05.760 --> 00:58:06.880 If you've enjoyed this episode, 00:58:07.120 --> 00:58:08.940 we hope you'll consider supporting us at 00:58:09.280 --> 00:58:11.180 buymeacoffee.com slash Fusion Patrol 00:58:11.800 --> 00:58:14.040 or patreon.com slash Fusion Patrol. 00:58:14.900 --> 00:58:16.840 For our monthly Patreon subscribers, 00:58:17.120 --> 00:58:20.400 we're currently running a special series on Babylon 5. 00:58:22.480 --> 00:58:23.660 Come join the conversation 00:58:23.660 --> 00:58:26.920 and find other content at FusionPatrol.com. 00:58:27.520 --> 00:58:29.420 And we're back on social media, 00:58:29.690 --> 00:58:32.580 where you can also follow us on Mastodon and the Fediverse. 00:58:33.320 --> 00:58:36.980 Our address is at podcast at FusionPatrol.com. 00:58:39.760 --> 00:58:42.580 Our music is Fight the Future by Amber Wolf. 00:58:45.320 --> 00:58:47.600 This has been a Lone Locust production. 00:58:52.940 --> 00:58:54.740 Addendum for our U.S. listeners. 00:58:56.360 --> 00:59:03.860 After we recorded this, we have found out that they have set a release date in the United States for The Underwater Menace on Blu-ray. 00:59:04.560 --> 00:59:06.960 And that is January 9th, 2024. 00:59:07.640 --> 00:59:12.580 It's available for pre-order now from various resellers. 00:59:13.260 --> 00:59:15.240 So you can just watch it very soon.