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Hello? I'm Derek Duncan with the Feed ball

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podcast.

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And for episode 88,

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I've got as my guest, Mike Cock, 1

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of the principles at Oc Golf, the Australian

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design firm consisting of cock, former professional player,

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Jeff Og and Ashley mead.

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When you think of Australian Golf and the

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influence its had on global design,

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It's impossible not to think of Alas Mckinsey.

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Mckinsey visited Australia New Zealand for a relatively

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short period of time in late 19 26.

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But his impact on the gulf in these

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countries, particularly the courses around Melbourne was immense.

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Though he mainly advised clubs on their remodeling

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plans,

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The style of rugged sweeping Cape and Bay

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bunker he introduced, mostly carried out after his

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departure by Alex Russell and Mick More. Put

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a stamp on sand golf that remains ind

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today.

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Generations of golfers learned the game on the

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courses that Mackenzie touched like Royal Melbourne. And

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Kingston Heath, and that Sand style of golf

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would educate and inform later Australian designers from

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Peter Thompson and Bruce Devon to Greg Norman,

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Bob Harrison and Mike Clayton, who formerly worked

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with the members of Oc.

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It's interesting to see the genetics of that

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style of golf begin to work its way

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back into design in the Us.

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Though Mckinsey was obviously British. He spent most

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of his time in the remaining years after

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his visit down under living and working in

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the Us.

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Now, we're seeing cock an Oc return the

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favor, bringing elements of Australian design personality,

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influenced by Mackenzie to projects here in the

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states.

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It's a little like rock and roll in

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the early 19 sixties when American audiences were

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shown variations of their own homegrown music, rock,

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blues, soul,

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as filtered through the ears and instruments of

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British bands like the beatles and stones,

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Over the last 5 years, cock and Have

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made substantial inroads here.

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Remodeling courses like Shady Oaks and fort worth,

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Ben Hogan Old Club.

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And the famed Medina in number 3 course,

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which just recently reopened after a major

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transformation of its property.

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While neither are strict covers of what you'd

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find in Australia, there are certainly elements of

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style and personality that reach directly back to

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the sand belt.

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While Cock and Oc have also begun several

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new upscale destination club courses,

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including the fall line in the Sandy Central

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region of Georgia.

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Tip in the Dune z Prairie region West

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of Minneapolis and another new project in Central

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Texas.

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Given these great sites and pure design freedom,

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It'll be interesting to see how the themes

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from the sand belt might be interpreted via

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American soil and the vision of Oc.

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Cock is a great hang. 1 of the

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nicest and most conscientious people in the design

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business.

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It's easy to see why he and Og

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and Mead are getting the jobs they are,

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and We spend time talking about the character

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of the sand belt, how things have begun

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to happen rather quickly for the firm, the

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fall line and other topics. And dig pretty

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deep into their radical remodel of medina, and

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ponder whether it will be a shot in

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the arm for the horse's reputation a shot

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the club desperately needs.

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You'll love this 1. Here's me and Mike

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Cock.

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I'm in Minnesota. So on project up you

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end.

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So I'm in, the house, it's actually quite

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it's quite it's very

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civilized.

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So the the property,

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the the developer bought, the property offer

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off

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was sort of 2 different properties, but it

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there was a house on 1 of the

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properties. So we stay in the house when

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we're on so to logically...

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Above the hole, and,

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you, So you can get up in the

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morning, have breakfast and just walk out the

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sites. That's actually it's pretty nice. That's a

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that's a benefit. I remember having conversations with

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like, Bill core, and he would talk about

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going to places like Sand hills or some

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of the other remote places that they'd built

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golf courses.

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They'd be the first 1 in, and there

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was no infrastructure, you know, the nearest or

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place to stay could be, you know, 20

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miles away. So they were always kind of,

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you know, pioneering their way through these... Lease

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landscapes And then obviously, like the second or

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third person that comes in and builds a

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course after them. But they have all the...

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The resort facilities and Yeah. The luxury touches

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is, what they didn't have to rough it

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as much, but you got a house That's

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good. Yeah. Absolutely. I mean so severity because

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they... Yeah, to to your point in bill's

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point. Our of the projects are pretty remote.

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So, you know, the 1 down in Georgia

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there's just nothing, you know, he can't. You

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know.

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So how do how do you work that?

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Do you stay... Is that near... Less near

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Columbus? Isn't it kinda down that area?

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Yeah. It's about an hour from Columbus? U.

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Do It's it's...

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You know, so I I kind of... I

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I drive past the Starbucks in the morning

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and grab... You know, a bit of banana

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bread and a couple bottles of water, and

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then that's launched 2 ration for today.

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Yeah. That's right. Have a coffee on the

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way down and then,

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get back to the hotel at 06:00 or

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07:00,

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have a dinner and do it all again.

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Yeah. Well I was just thinking about you.

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I mean,

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just about everything you do these days is

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is a hell commute. Now how how often

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are you coming to the United States?

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It's a pretty crazy program, Basically every month.

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So wow.

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So

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this year because it's so busy.

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I'm doing about 2 and a half weeks

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here, and then Ashley,

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kind of flies over when I fly home.

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So someone's always in the states and someone's

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always in a in Australia. Mh. So that...

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That's kind of the theory. So And each

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trip... We've got 3 in construction. So we've

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got we're still going in Georgia

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up here in Minnesota, and we've got a

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new project in Austin.

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Oh So you sort of do 5 or

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6 days at each,

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and then there's usually a couple of days

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somewhere,

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throw thrown in. So great. That's that's the

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trip. I go home. Ashley comes over and

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does the same order. So it means that

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you you're never really more than 2 weeks.

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Away from a project. So keeps the projects

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moving,

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but it just requires a fair bit of,

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communication between 2 of. So usually, 1 of

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us all

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rough in 3 holes, get them squared away,

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the other person will come in make edits,

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and then get started on the next 3

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holes.

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And and just kind of keep keep going

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that sort of, You. Right because you've got

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it down to a kind of a process

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now And it's a good thing I'm... It's

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good thing you guys probably don't have families

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families or social lives or anything going on.

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We do... What we do. But

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this is very understanding at the moment but.

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Know, you never know when it's gonna end

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india, you know, it's kind of... I mean,

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everyone is so busy at that moment and

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all great projects. So you just... Kind of,

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you know, you just have to

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just have to deal with it And,

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yeah.

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Was it always your plan to work this

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much in the Us? Just

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no. It's funny. Like, you know, I think

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Like most, of course design fans,

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you sort of start local, all of your

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your,

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you know, your early jobs to sort of

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fairly, you know, within the states.

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And then we we grew and we did

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a lot of work around Australia,

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And we we probably looked more in Asia

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to be honest, we kept getting

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you know, shortlist on all these projects and,

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you know, we went to Kim

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Thailand,

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Vietnam, a bunch of times, China,

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sort of earlier probably 15 different trips, you

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know, through Asia, and just never really...

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Because we're... I think we're funny because they...

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I found the Asian market,

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would either wanna a name, like a a

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name is in like a norman or AAAA

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palmer or a nicholas or, you know, like

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a...

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You know.

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For marketing reasons and... The marketing Yeah.

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Or they wanted to pay the bare minimum

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they wanted to pay the least amount. So...

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And we've... We were neither. Mh We're not

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the cheapest, but we're not really, like a

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name in that sense. And so

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in, every time we had conversations with them

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and we talk about, you know, we spend

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all this time on the ground, and and

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it just never made any. And they'd be

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like, well, but we've got project managers. We've

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got people here. You know, you don't need

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to be here. You just need to do

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the plans and and and give us the

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plans. It's was like, yeah. It's not really

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how we work. So. Yeah. We're in the

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field. And and so it just it just

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was never a fit. We we ended up

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doing a great project in China,

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and that was it. And then...

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And then Shady oaks was the first project

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we did in the states, and then it

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just kind of took off from there really.

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Like it was... It's amazing how it's kind

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of the last 5 years have sort of

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unfolded in now.

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Yeah. To your point about half our business

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is in America. Yeah. Half in Australia,

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And to be honest, that would be the

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that would be the perfect balance

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for as long as that can last really

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because it's a...

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You know, we enjoy coming over here. It's

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whilst it's a long way away. Everyone speaks

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the same language.

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Everyone does business in a similar way they

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understand how we work.

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That makes it pretty convenient then, you know,

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the travel tough, but, you know, long hours

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in the air, but once you once you

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touch down, it's very familiar.

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Absolutely. And we... We've got a a Us

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shape as well as Australian shape. And so

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it just... It's a very it's just an

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easy fit.

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So I don't... We I don't think we'll

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chase jobs. So certainly my chase jobs was

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in Asia if something came along and it

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was a good fit then and fine.

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And Europe sort of seems as a bit

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of a... So seems very clicky. Seems a

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bit of a a closed shop really

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to

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mainly European architects, and, you know, the old

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American has has had some... Done some work

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there as well.

268
00:09:47,530 --> 00:09:49,436
So, yeah. So I just think it... It's

269
00:09:49,436 --> 00:09:51,818
kind of, yeah, Australia in Us for for

270
00:09:51,818 --> 00:09:52,374
the time being.

271
00:09:53,247 --> 00:09:54,518
I just found out that I have to

272
00:09:54,518 --> 00:09:55,668
go to China

273
00:09:56,042 --> 00:09:57,948
at the end of August. I've never been

274
00:09:57,948 --> 00:10:00,251
there. And just the... Really? The... Yeah. No.

275
00:10:00,410 --> 00:10:02,316
I've never been there and and where we're

276
00:10:02,316 --> 00:10:02,951
going is, like,

277
00:10:03,604 --> 00:10:06,880
central China, and just... It's overwhelming to me

278
00:10:06,880 --> 00:10:08,638
for never having to have to plan a

279
00:10:08,638 --> 00:10:10,016
trip like that before and

280
00:10:11,290 --> 00:10:13,290
to the thought of dealing with, you know,

281
00:10:13,450 --> 00:10:15,450
language barriers and all the different things you

282
00:10:15,450 --> 00:10:16,730
have to do, especially in China,

283
00:10:17,769 --> 00:10:19,825
technological wise and and how we

284
00:10:20,501 --> 00:10:21,775
you know, just get from point a to

285
00:10:21,775 --> 00:10:24,005
point b. So I'm struggling through that right

286
00:10:24,005 --> 00:10:26,315
now, trying to figure out how that's done.

287
00:10:26,474 --> 00:10:28,519
So, the the thought of maybe going to

288
00:10:29,278 --> 00:10:31,433
Australia versus China would be very appealing to

289
00:10:31,433 --> 00:10:31,593
me.

290
00:10:32,311 --> 00:10:33,190
Oh, yeah. Yeah.

291
00:10:33,908 --> 00:10:36,223
Yeah. We we kind of nice memories of

292
00:10:36,223 --> 00:10:37,740
work in China. It was it was very...

293
00:10:37,914 --> 00:10:39,290
Thing. You know, we'd we'd

294
00:10:39,666 --> 00:10:40,404
you'd have,

295
00:10:41,098 --> 00:10:43,009
you know, there were farmers and, you know,

296
00:10:44,601 --> 00:10:46,685
you you'd sort of sting can't speak the

297
00:10:46,685 --> 00:10:48,435
same language, but it's amazing when you get

298
00:10:48,435 --> 00:10:49,867
down on the in the dirt and you

299
00:10:49,867 --> 00:10:51,856
sort of explain something or you sort of

300
00:10:51,856 --> 00:10:53,072
point to things and

301
00:10:53,766 --> 00:10:54,504
just how

302
00:10:55,614 --> 00:10:57,691
the ability to sort of overcome those language

303
00:10:57,691 --> 00:10:59,848
barriers is is is amazing, really.

304
00:11:01,846 --> 00:11:03,698
So, yeah. It it it'll work out.

305
00:11:04,417 --> 00:11:05,856
1 way or the other. It'll be... It'll

306
00:11:05,856 --> 00:11:06,655
be fine. Yeah.

307
00:11:08,333 --> 00:11:10,250
Well it's... You know, so you you've got...

308
00:11:11,144 --> 00:11:12,822
The fall line in Georgia, which we mentioned

309
00:11:12,822 --> 00:11:14,421
in you're in Minnesota right now. So these

310
00:11:14,421 --> 00:11:16,099
are 2 brand new courses.

311
00:11:16,898 --> 00:11:18,096
And then we can talk about those. I'd

312
00:11:18,176 --> 00:11:20,289
I'd love to hear more about them. But.

313
00:11:20,663 --> 00:11:23,206
What is the state of new course construction

314
00:11:23,206 --> 00:11:25,510
in in Australia right now? You know, we've

315
00:11:25,510 --> 00:11:27,418
seen new new great new courses come up

316
00:11:27,418 --> 00:11:28,292
in New Zealand and...

317
00:11:29,104 --> 00:11:30,861
Tasmania seems to be pretty hot.

318
00:11:31,740 --> 00:11:33,817
What's what's Australia? What's happening there as far

319
00:11:33,817 --> 00:11:34,536
as new courses.

320
00:11:35,908 --> 00:11:37,969
It's still fairly slow, I would say,

321
00:11:39,079 --> 00:11:40,768
so through the eighties and nineties

322
00:11:41,457 --> 00:11:42,726
and early 2 thousands.

323
00:11:43,773 --> 00:11:45,841
Most of the new courses in Australia were

324
00:11:45,841 --> 00:11:48,172
attached to residential. Mh. So

325
00:11:48,706 --> 00:11:49,843
that was a pretty common

326
00:11:51,110 --> 00:11:51,990
formula, I guess,

327
00:11:54,629 --> 00:11:56,709
not that many new courses that were sort

328
00:11:56,709 --> 00:11:58,009
of standalone and courses

329
00:11:58,389 --> 00:12:00,804
destination. So courses were built, but Bam who

330
00:12:00,804 --> 00:12:02,482
was was really the first of them I

331
00:12:02,482 --> 00:12:04,580
would say. And then Lost Farm and then

332
00:12:04,799 --> 00:12:06,397
couple on King Island and mh.

333
00:12:07,915 --> 00:12:09,205
Who or this

334
00:12:09,683 --> 00:12:12,153
7 Beach in in Hobart. There's 1 that

335
00:12:12,153 --> 00:12:14,168
we've been looking at in Hobart. So

336
00:12:14,544 --> 00:12:16,713
there are a few, but it's probably on

337
00:12:16,713 --> 00:12:18,152
average, it would be, like, 1 a year.

338
00:12:18,392 --> 00:12:18,951
I would say.

339
00:12:19,590 --> 00:12:20,629
It's not lot. Yeah.

340
00:12:21,828 --> 00:12:23,586
And it's just not. I guess it's a

341
00:12:23,586 --> 00:12:25,514
it's a tricky. It's business model. I mean

342
00:12:25,514 --> 00:12:28,004
it amaze me over here how,

343
00:12:29,574 --> 00:12:31,325
you know, these private a lot of them

344
00:12:31,325 --> 00:12:33,643
are billionaires that a developing them. But, you

345
00:12:33,643 --> 00:12:35,886
know, these these these these private

346
00:12:36,337 --> 00:12:37,946
Uber private high end

347
00:12:38,556 --> 00:12:39,056
courses

348
00:12:39,839 --> 00:12:42,551
you know, with 200 members or 250 members

349
00:12:42,551 --> 00:12:44,545
and they charge a lot, you know, might

350
00:12:44,545 --> 00:12:46,060
be half a million dollars or a million

351
00:12:46,060 --> 00:12:47,495
dollars or 250000

352
00:12:47,495 --> 00:12:50,299
dollars. And that formula just doesn't work in

353
00:12:50,458 --> 00:12:53,239
Australia. You just... You couldn't get enough people

354
00:12:53,239 --> 00:12:54,534
with that sort of money,

355
00:12:55,385 --> 00:12:57,769
you know, that often they'd find private jets

356
00:12:57,769 --> 00:12:59,613
and things to get to these places. So

357
00:12:59,613 --> 00:13:00,113
it's

358
00:13:01,442 --> 00:13:02,499
most of the

359
00:13:03,352 --> 00:13:04,067
these sort of

360
00:13:05,420 --> 00:13:07,914
to destination courses in Australia have been public.

361
00:13:08,634 --> 00:13:10,154
Publicly accessible. Mh.

362
00:13:11,115 --> 00:13:12,875
And that's... It's... I guess it's tricky. It's

363
00:13:12,875 --> 00:13:14,875
a leap faith if you're the owner,

364
00:13:15,448 --> 00:13:18,256
that, you know, that it's gonna work. So

365
00:13:19,188 --> 00:13:20,859
as a result, it's, you know, there haven't

366
00:13:20,859 --> 00:13:22,943
been so many. I mean, that's like he

367
00:13:22,943 --> 00:13:24,460
just said that's true in the Us as

368
00:13:24,460 --> 00:13:27,013
well. I mean, the the the biggest impact

369
00:13:27,013 --> 00:13:29,327
of new courses has been seen in the

370
00:13:29,327 --> 00:13:30,045
realm of these...

371
00:13:30,618 --> 00:13:30,856
You know,

372
00:13:31,886 --> 00:13:35,693
destination courses and really exotic landscapes that caters

373
00:13:35,693 --> 00:13:36,010
to a,

374
00:13:37,279 --> 00:13:39,440
a clientele who, has the ability to get

375
00:13:39,440 --> 00:13:41,693
there on private jets. They probably

376
00:13:42,149 --> 00:13:42,649
do,

377
00:13:43,184 --> 00:13:44,858
8000 rounds a year or something, You know,

378
00:13:44,937 --> 00:13:46,292
I don't, I'm making that number up, but

379
00:13:46,292 --> 00:13:48,700
it's it's pretty small amount. And then you

380
00:13:48,700 --> 00:13:51,259
see some resorts that that build out the

381
00:13:51,420 --> 00:13:53,179
Cabo group, you know, is just open the

382
00:13:53,740 --> 00:13:56,540
Or renovate, remodel the the Citrus Farms property.

383
00:13:56,954 --> 00:13:58,542
But that's kind of an upscale play too.

384
00:13:58,859 --> 00:14:00,233
And there's really not a lot of

385
00:14:01,083 --> 00:14:03,092
the... Of that middle ground public course

386
00:14:03,465 --> 00:14:04,521
or middle ground

387
00:14:04,894 --> 00:14:07,535
new private club, that's in a suburb of

388
00:14:07,535 --> 00:14:07,934
a city.

389
00:14:08,891 --> 00:14:11,125
You know, it's it's it's really just... I

390
00:14:11,125 --> 00:14:12,560
hate to say it, but, you know, we've

391
00:14:12,560 --> 00:14:13,459
seen some nice

392
00:14:14,076 --> 00:14:16,205
renovations of municipal courses with with

393
00:14:17,125 --> 00:14:18,004
groups getting

394
00:14:18,565 --> 00:14:21,304
private funds to rehab some some nice old

395
00:14:21,605 --> 00:14:23,858
public courses. And then it's just you know,

396
00:14:24,018 --> 00:14:26,333
this skull for the 1 percent class.

397
00:14:27,052 --> 00:14:29,367
That seems to be going quite well. But,

398
00:14:29,527 --> 00:14:31,204
yeah. That... There's that that big doughnut hole

399
00:14:31,204 --> 00:14:33,533
in the middle where. There's not that in

400
00:14:33,533 --> 00:14:35,767
the United States and the 19 nineties, a

401
00:14:35,767 --> 00:14:37,282
lot of the golf courses that were built

402
00:14:37,282 --> 00:14:37,782
were

403
00:14:39,196 --> 00:14:41,031
public access. They weren't municipal but they were

404
00:14:41,031 --> 00:14:42,626
public courses, daily fee,

405
00:14:43,518 --> 00:14:45,109
semi private, you know, you could get a

406
00:14:45,109 --> 00:14:46,302
membership, but it was open to anybody,

407
00:14:47,177 --> 00:14:48,689
t times were are open to to anybody.

408
00:14:48,928 --> 00:14:50,201
And that was a real business model. And

409
00:14:50,280 --> 00:14:51,655
I think a lot of those courses have

410
00:14:51,871 --> 00:14:52,031
that,

411
00:14:52,684 --> 00:14:55,101
model hasn't maybe held up that well, but

412
00:14:55,480 --> 00:14:57,099
we certainly aren't seeing much of that

413
00:14:57,557 --> 00:14:59,315
at this late game. No.

414
00:14:59,889 --> 00:15:01,958
No. And it seems like the the those

415
00:15:01,958 --> 00:15:03,015
really high end

416
00:15:03,390 --> 00:15:05,698
public facilities that sort of catering to a

417
00:15:05,698 --> 00:15:06,198
similar

418
00:15:06,653 --> 00:15:08,642
type of golfer to the private courses in

419
00:15:08,642 --> 00:15:09,612
a way. That's true.

420
00:15:11,363 --> 00:15:13,194
So, yeah. The the the... I mean, you

421
00:15:13,194 --> 00:15:14,786
have some means to be able to get

422
00:15:14,786 --> 00:15:15,286
to

423
00:15:15,821 --> 00:15:18,705
cabbage cape Bread. You know, for instance, or

424
00:15:18,705 --> 00:15:20,301
even San Valley, you know, it's a it's

425
00:15:20,301 --> 00:15:21,120
a plain

426
00:15:21,498 --> 00:15:23,892
ride in a in a couple hour drive.

427
00:15:24,864 --> 00:15:27,014
Yeah. And and they're pretty expensive. You know

428
00:15:27,174 --> 00:15:30,541
Think... It's it's it's 250 or 300 dollars

429
00:15:30,598 --> 00:15:32,589
for around and then and usually, they go

430
00:15:32,589 --> 00:15:32,988
there for.

431
00:15:33,799 --> 00:15:35,398
2 or 3 days. So it's 3 or

432
00:15:35,398 --> 00:15:38,274
4 rounds. It's cat. It's food, it's accommodation,

433
00:15:38,754 --> 00:15:39,313
their fares.

434
00:15:40,512 --> 00:15:42,430
It's... Yeah. It's good. It's significant.

435
00:15:43,004 --> 00:15:43,324
Investment.

436
00:15:43,883 --> 00:15:45,082
Number. Yeah. Absolutely.

437
00:15:47,080 --> 00:15:49,158
Where, yeah. And and in, again, to relate

438
00:15:49,158 --> 00:15:50,357
it back to Australia, You know then, we

439
00:15:50,357 --> 00:15:51,795
don't really have a cat culture,

440
00:15:53,009 --> 00:15:53,968
I think inherently,

441
00:15:54,527 --> 00:15:55,507
Australians are

442
00:15:56,046 --> 00:15:57,085
perhaps cheap. They just...

443
00:15:57,964 --> 00:16:00,361
They they look at Cat brutal while they're

444
00:16:00,361 --> 00:16:02,294
frugal. Why would they I do that? I've

445
00:16:02,294 --> 00:16:02,774
yeah. For.

446
00:16:03,413 --> 00:16:04,612
It's like, well, I could just get a

447
00:16:04,612 --> 00:16:06,929
buggy and just wheel around. Yeah. And and

448
00:16:06,929 --> 00:16:08,368
probably it's because, I mean, we used to

449
00:16:08,368 --> 00:16:09,646
be have a cat culture, but it's just

450
00:16:09,646 --> 00:16:12,217
not anymore. And, I think If you've never

451
00:16:12,217 --> 00:16:14,371
had a cad, you've never experienced sort of

452
00:16:14,371 --> 00:16:15,966
the joys of having a good cat, perhaps,

453
00:16:16,285 --> 00:16:17,481
you know, you don't see the value.

454
00:16:18,997 --> 00:16:21,252
But, you know, the ceiling for public

455
00:16:21,564 --> 00:16:23,712
golf in Australia is probably like a hundred

456
00:16:23,712 --> 00:16:25,223
and 50 dollars. Mh.

457
00:16:25,939 --> 00:16:28,460
I think people would you would struggle to

458
00:16:28,738 --> 00:16:30,093
to get them to pay a lot more

459
00:16:30,093 --> 00:16:30,412
than that.

460
00:16:31,926 --> 00:16:33,599
Yeah. Whereas it whereas over here. It's, yeah.

461
00:16:33,759 --> 00:16:36,012
It's it's... Yeah. They're they

462
00:16:36,404 --> 00:16:38,881
it's a decent spend. And there's not many

463
00:16:38,881 --> 00:16:40,640
sort of high quality minis where you can

464
00:16:40,640 --> 00:16:42,078
spend, you know, 50 or a hundred dollars

465
00:16:42,078 --> 00:16:44,396
and get you know. Yeah And I think

466
00:16:44,396 --> 00:16:46,089
you know this better than... Than I do.

467
00:16:46,249 --> 00:16:48,486
But I think the the economics are pretty

468
00:16:48,486 --> 00:16:48,986
clear

469
00:16:49,525 --> 00:16:50,025
that

470
00:16:51,124 --> 00:16:52,802
it's really, really difficult at least in the

471
00:16:53,042 --> 00:16:55,453
Us and I'm imagining Australia too, it would

472
00:16:55,453 --> 00:16:58,168
be very difficult to build a public golf

473
00:16:58,168 --> 00:16:58,668
course

474
00:16:59,046 --> 00:17:01,622
with a green fee of 50 or

475
00:17:02,080 --> 00:17:04,416
70 dollars even and make that

476
00:17:05,603 --> 00:17:08,302
financially viable just because of the the outlay,

477
00:17:08,460 --> 00:17:10,207
you know, the land, the, you know, everything

478
00:17:10,207 --> 00:17:12,191
else that goes into the construction and the

479
00:17:12,191 --> 00:17:12,826
the debt and,

480
00:17:14,111 --> 00:17:16,335
I just don't... Maybe that's just gone away

481
00:17:16,335 --> 00:17:18,320
forever. If it hasn't been built yet, maybe

482
00:17:18,320 --> 00:17:19,193
that's not coming back.

483
00:17:20,543 --> 00:17:22,226
Yeah. It's a... Yeah. With that. The numbers

484
00:17:22,226 --> 00:17:24,609
on, you know, you occasionally, you know, you

485
00:17:24,609 --> 00:17:26,857
get nice properties come across your desk and

486
00:17:26,913 --> 00:17:29,375
you sort of trying to help potential owners

487
00:17:29,375 --> 00:17:31,539
and and the the lands the killer. Yeah.

488
00:17:31,778 --> 00:17:33,530
The land and the infrastructure because as soon

489
00:17:33,530 --> 00:17:34,884
as soon you build a club house and

490
00:17:34,884 --> 00:17:36,715
purchase the land. I mean it you might

491
00:17:36,715 --> 00:17:38,627
be spending 15000000, and it's a lot to

492
00:17:38,627 --> 00:17:39,518
get back. You know,

493
00:17:40,316 --> 00:17:42,230
you can kinda do the math on usually

494
00:17:42,230 --> 00:17:44,941
on the construction and the maintenance and perhaps

495
00:17:44,941 --> 00:17:46,776
are, you know, paying that off over a

496
00:17:46,776 --> 00:17:48,610
number of years, but the the the actual,

497
00:17:49,022 --> 00:17:50,635
investment in the land and then the

498
00:17:51,089 --> 00:17:51,486
then the,

499
00:17:52,758 --> 00:17:55,381
club and the verticals and pulling in, you

500
00:17:55,381 --> 00:17:57,686
know, power and electricity and water is tricky.

501
00:17:58,019 --> 00:17:59,770
Yeah. Yeah. So we we are saying here

502
00:17:59,770 --> 00:18:00,429
a lot

503
00:18:00,884 --> 00:18:01,384
of

504
00:18:02,874 --> 00:18:03,749
somebody buying

505
00:18:04,306 --> 00:18:06,788
an existing golf course. That maybe is not

506
00:18:06,788 --> 00:18:09,335
doing well financially and and hiring an architect

507
00:18:09,335 --> 00:18:11,324
to basically build a new golf course over

508
00:18:11,324 --> 00:18:12,597
the top. But you've already got the land.

509
00:18:12,756 --> 00:18:13,711
You've got a lot of the roads. You've

510
00:18:13,711 --> 00:18:15,479
got a lot of the infrastructure. I think

511
00:18:15,479 --> 00:18:17,876
there's... Yeah. And maybe those green fees are...

512
00:18:18,276 --> 00:18:20,114
They're probably to be actually honest with you.

513
00:18:20,274 --> 00:18:22,352
They're probably now a hundred and 25 dollar

514
00:18:22,352 --> 00:18:23,950
green fees or 150

515
00:18:23,950 --> 00:18:26,765
instead of... 50 or 75, but there is

516
00:18:26,765 --> 00:18:28,125
some movement in that direction.

517
00:18:29,325 --> 00:18:29,484
Yeah.

518
00:18:30,205 --> 00:18:32,045
When construction costs to have got up a

519
00:18:32,045 --> 00:18:32,205
lot.

520
00:18:33,899 --> 00:18:35,176
Know, years ago, I remember Tom,

521
00:18:36,932 --> 00:18:37,991
doug sort of

522
00:18:39,008 --> 00:18:41,003
talking about, you know, there was, like his

523
00:18:41,003 --> 00:18:43,252
first 12, of course, this didn't cost. Million

524
00:18:43,252 --> 00:18:44,526
dollars. You know, they're all built for less

525
00:18:44,526 --> 00:18:46,914
than, you know, 4000000 dollars. Bam Was built

526
00:18:46,914 --> 00:18:48,450
for less than 4000000 and

527
00:18:49,144 --> 00:18:52,344
whereas now 4 become 04:12 or 15.

528
00:18:53,060 --> 00:18:55,688
And on some renovations, you know, when when

529
00:18:55,688 --> 00:18:57,520
you look at, like, precision air and all

530
00:18:57,520 --> 00:18:59,590
this different technology technologies, suddenly it's like 20,

531
00:19:00,082 --> 00:19:02,226
you know, It's crazy money. It's crazy money.

532
00:19:02,623 --> 00:19:04,132
You know, the the thing about... It was

533
00:19:04,132 --> 00:19:05,878
always... Then this... I know this was a

534
00:19:05,878 --> 00:19:07,808
long time ago, but Shadow Creek was p

535
00:19:07,943 --> 00:19:09,866
built for, I think... You know, the hear

536
00:19:09,866 --> 00:19:11,538
different numbers, but 40000000 dollars.

537
00:19:12,255 --> 00:19:14,904
And some of these renovations now of of

538
00:19:15,121 --> 00:19:17,510
high end private clubs, a renovation with,

539
00:19:18,002 --> 00:19:19,592
precision there or or sub or whatever you

540
00:19:19,592 --> 00:19:21,580
wanna, you know, Yeah technology you wanna put

541
00:19:21,580 --> 00:19:22,614
the ground could be 20000000.

542
00:19:23,250 --> 00:19:24,284
Maybe more. I don't know.

543
00:19:25,079 --> 00:19:25,818
It's just

544
00:19:26,208 --> 00:19:29,550
it's it's it's fascinating the the the economics

545
00:19:29,550 --> 00:19:29,868
behind it.

546
00:19:30,664 --> 00:19:32,733
Yeah. It's funny. I I remember interviewing in

547
00:19:33,051 --> 00:19:33,551
Vietnam

548
00:19:34,006 --> 00:19:34,643
many years ago.

549
00:19:35,454 --> 00:19:36,352
And the client

550
00:19:38,400 --> 00:19:39,992
asked, you know, how much to build the

551
00:19:39,992 --> 00:19:41,425
golf course. And back then, and it was

552
00:19:41,425 --> 00:19:43,097
like, it was probably 5 or 6000000 dollars.

553
00:19:43,909 --> 00:19:45,980
And but but the person that was representing

554
00:19:45,980 --> 00:19:48,132
and said. No, just just say million dollars

555
00:19:48,132 --> 00:19:49,646
a whole. That's you that you don't wanna

556
00:19:49,646 --> 00:19:52,295
hand under sell you... And I remember thinking

557
00:19:52,295 --> 00:19:53,494
of the time million dollars at the hole,

558
00:19:53,575 --> 00:19:56,375
that's ridiculous. It's like 18000000 dollars, And here

559
00:19:56,375 --> 00:19:57,575
we are 10:10

560
00:19:57,575 --> 00:19:59,734
late. Yeah. Yeah. That's what it's got. You.

561
00:20:00,069 --> 00:20:02,301
You could you could spend an unlimited amount

562
00:20:02,301 --> 00:20:04,772
of money building golf now. You know? Yeah.

563
00:20:05,011 --> 00:20:07,483
Yeah. You could. Yeah. Yeah. Just out just

564
00:20:07,483 --> 00:20:08,121
because you mentioned it,

565
00:20:09,014 --> 00:20:10,133
What, I'd love to get your take on

566
00:20:10,133 --> 00:20:11,592
it? Well first of all, like how much

567
00:20:11,651 --> 00:20:12,930
how often do you get to play golf?

568
00:20:15,008 --> 00:20:17,006
Not that much anymore really. I mean, I

569
00:20:17,006 --> 00:20:17,405
still love it.

570
00:20:18,539 --> 00:20:20,140
I never really fell out of love with

571
00:20:20,140 --> 00:20:21,500
the game. Like, I I used to play

572
00:20:21,500 --> 00:20:21,980
competitively,

573
00:20:22,619 --> 00:20:25,099
and it's funny a lot of my conte.

574
00:20:26,394 --> 00:20:28,468
The ones that weren't successful and that's most

575
00:20:28,468 --> 00:20:28,707
of them.

576
00:20:29,983 --> 00:20:31,658
They just end up hating the game because

577
00:20:31,658 --> 00:20:32,535
it becomes a job,

578
00:20:33,173 --> 00:20:35,486
and they equate the game with earning a

579
00:20:35,486 --> 00:20:35,986
living

580
00:20:36,539 --> 00:20:38,856
And then, you know, they're missing carts and

581
00:20:38,856 --> 00:20:40,534
losing their card they end up just never

582
00:20:40,534 --> 00:20:40,934
playing again.

583
00:20:42,532 --> 00:20:44,050
And that never happened to me, which is

584
00:20:44,050 --> 00:20:45,738
fought and I I still love the guy

585
00:20:45,738 --> 00:20:46,296
and that's good.

586
00:20:47,252 --> 00:20:50,280
Unfortunately, it's, you know, it's probably 10 to

587
00:20:50,280 --> 00:20:52,352
15 rounds a year, I would say. And

588
00:20:52,352 --> 00:20:53,409
it's usually in

589
00:20:54,437 --> 00:20:56,424
I mean, like you, 1 of the nice

590
00:20:56,424 --> 00:20:57,854
things with the industries is you meet people

591
00:20:57,854 --> 00:20:59,785
that are members of nice clubs and,

592
00:21:00,159 --> 00:21:01,669
you know, so so the 10 or 15

593
00:21:01,669 --> 00:21:03,852
round is usually nice. And

594
00:21:04,542 --> 00:21:07,001
they come in in quick succession, You know,

595
00:21:07,080 --> 00:21:08,746
it might be 3 rounds in week and

596
00:21:08,746 --> 00:21:10,119
it's at, you know, 3

597
00:21:10,586 --> 00:21:12,410
unbelievable golf courses, but then I went Tetra

598
00:21:12,410 --> 00:21:14,392
club for 3 months. So. Yeah No. I

599
00:21:14,392 --> 00:21:15,685
think that's pretty typical of

600
00:21:16,216 --> 00:21:17,802
a lot of people in our business.

601
00:21:18,453 --> 00:21:20,047
You really have to carve out time to

602
00:21:20,047 --> 00:21:23,257
play golf. It's such a difficult time consuming

603
00:21:23,634 --> 00:21:26,126
endeavor, and and it involves travel and

604
00:21:26,597 --> 00:21:28,746
connections? And what just out of curiosity, What

605
00:21:28,746 --> 00:21:30,895
when you were playing competitive golf, what types...

606
00:21:31,054 --> 00:21:32,725
Did you have a type of course that

607
00:21:32,725 --> 00:21:34,396
fit your game or that you liked? And

608
00:21:34,396 --> 00:21:35,724
have... Has your view on

609
00:21:36,083 --> 00:21:38,873
golf courses and architecture evolved. They're changed since

610
00:21:38,873 --> 00:21:40,308
you had to... You know, we're were trying

611
00:21:40,308 --> 00:21:41,025
to make a score.

612
00:21:44,783 --> 00:21:46,767
I'd like to think that my game has

613
00:21:46,767 --> 00:21:47,585
an influence

614
00:21:48,989 --> 00:21:50,259
that architecture too much.

615
00:21:51,132 --> 00:21:53,212
You know, you obviously, there's lots of famous

616
00:21:53,212 --> 00:21:54,247
instances of, you know,

617
00:21:55,282 --> 00:21:57,433
Nicholas building left to our greens and sure.

618
00:21:58,229 --> 00:22:00,140
Like that. And I guess everyone has their

619
00:22:00,140 --> 00:22:02,069
own bias, but, famous No, I was good.

620
00:22:02,308 --> 00:22:05,046
I was pretty consistent. I would say. I

621
00:22:05,744 --> 00:22:07,422
ball was usually in play. Had a very

622
00:22:07,422 --> 00:22:08,061
good short game.

623
00:22:09,834 --> 00:22:11,670
So and and just sort of generally solid.

624
00:22:11,909 --> 00:22:13,745
Mh. With was probably in my game.

625
00:22:14,942 --> 00:22:17,257
I would say I'm probably more influenced just

626
00:22:17,257 --> 00:22:19,190
by the courses that I grow up on

627
00:22:19,190 --> 00:22:20,549
in the sort of through those formative years...

628
00:22:20,869 --> 00:22:22,329
But, you know, playing around Melbourne

629
00:22:22,789 --> 00:22:23,910
playing Sand belt courses,

630
00:22:24,309 --> 00:22:25,990
it's not like all we wanna build this

631
00:22:26,070 --> 00:22:26,890
Sand belt courses

632
00:22:27,284 --> 00:22:29,277
or anything like that, but I think there's

633
00:22:29,277 --> 00:22:31,589
elements of Sandal Golf that just almost become

634
00:22:31,589 --> 00:22:33,741
part of your Dna. You know, you you

635
00:22:33,741 --> 00:22:36,066
typically like wide fairway. You know, we... We're

636
00:22:36,066 --> 00:22:37,258
never gonna build a golf, of course with

637
00:22:37,258 --> 00:22:37,893
narrow fairway.

638
00:22:38,846 --> 00:22:41,491
We like interesting greens, you know, and and

639
00:22:41,705 --> 00:22:43,850
Sand, Golf is fairly pure from a strip...

640
00:22:44,024 --> 00:22:45,620
Strategic point of view, you know, there's there's

641
00:22:45,620 --> 00:22:47,535
always a position on the fairway where you

642
00:22:47,535 --> 00:22:48,972
wanna be and, you know,

643
00:22:50,089 --> 00:22:51,819
a right side and the wrong side and

644
00:22:52,099 --> 00:22:53,853
And I think you're irrespective of the style,

645
00:22:53,933 --> 00:22:56,246
of course, we're building that some of those

646
00:22:56,246 --> 00:22:58,160
things to tend to get flushed out with

647
00:22:58,160 --> 00:22:58,639
the design.

648
00:22:59,277 --> 00:23:01,805
How are you shore grass linking holes together

649
00:23:02,083 --> 00:23:05,500
grand tea he fairway. So, yeah. So... But

650
00:23:05,659 --> 00:23:07,408
I would say yeah. That that more so

651
00:23:07,408 --> 00:23:09,951
than my my game is influenced. Did you

652
00:23:09,951 --> 00:23:10,451
realize?

653
00:23:11,398 --> 00:23:12,775
Growing up in in that

654
00:23:13,391 --> 00:23:16,260
part of the Australia that house kinda special

655
00:23:16,260 --> 00:23:18,013
and how renowned those courses were that you

656
00:23:18,013 --> 00:23:18,651
were exposed to?

657
00:23:20,982 --> 00:23:23,560
Not not as a kid because not really

658
00:23:23,619 --> 00:23:26,096
because you'd... Well, as a 15 year old

659
00:23:26,096 --> 00:23:28,189
didn't know anything and you you know, you

660
00:23:28,189 --> 00:23:29,946
see the you see a gas Tv and

661
00:23:29,946 --> 00:23:31,225
think that that's, Yeah. You know.

662
00:23:32,583 --> 00:23:34,341
That's what great coffee. Still hard.

663
00:23:35,220 --> 00:23:37,153
Yeah. But certainly, as you grow, I mean,

664
00:23:37,313 --> 00:23:38,831
I traveled quite a lot when I was

665
00:23:38,831 --> 00:23:40,509
playing as an Am, so I've got to

666
00:23:40,509 --> 00:23:41,787
see a lot of golf courses, particularly in

667
00:23:41,867 --> 00:23:43,625
Europe. I went to Europe that.

668
00:23:44,438 --> 00:23:46,108
6 years in a row, I would say.

669
00:23:46,745 --> 00:23:48,416
And I would... It was kind of pre

670
00:23:48,416 --> 00:23:48,575
internet.

671
00:23:49,291 --> 00:23:50,962
So I just right away. I had Tom's...

672
00:23:51,122 --> 00:23:53,031
Yeah, I had the confidential guide. And I

673
00:23:53,031 --> 00:23:55,040
would where Where I was playing events, so

674
00:23:55,120 --> 00:23:57,036
I would kind of look through that, see

675
00:23:57,036 --> 00:23:58,791
what was in the area, and I'd run

676
00:23:58,791 --> 00:24:00,627
a letter or send an email. Yeah.

677
00:24:01,919 --> 00:24:02,419
And

678
00:24:02,798 --> 00:24:05,594
always got a positive response, never never got

679
00:24:05,594 --> 00:24:05,914
rejected.

680
00:24:06,713 --> 00:24:08,310
And then did the same in America, So

681
00:24:08,391 --> 00:24:09,030
I would just kind of...

682
00:24:09,760 --> 00:24:11,589
Seek out golf courses. And and the more

683
00:24:11,589 --> 00:24:13,498
golf you played overseas and then came home.

684
00:24:13,657 --> 00:24:15,168
I think that's when it started you started

685
00:24:15,168 --> 00:24:16,997
to realize just how special habit it was

686
00:24:16,997 --> 00:24:18,999
and that you know, we we did things

687
00:24:18,999 --> 00:24:20,134
that others didn't do

688
00:24:20,747 --> 00:24:22,891
oc overseas and and that's when that's sort

689
00:24:22,891 --> 00:24:24,004
of probably the penny dropped.

690
00:24:25,290 --> 00:24:27,380
So so you you are more of a

691
00:24:28,390 --> 00:24:29,208
intellectually curious

692
00:24:30,377 --> 00:24:31,990
player than than most

693
00:24:32,603 --> 00:24:33,715
competitive golfers are.

694
00:24:34,768 --> 00:24:34,927
Yep.

695
00:24:35,885 --> 00:24:38,301
My experience is most... Their, you know, they

696
00:24:38,998 --> 00:24:40,754
really great golfers typically,

697
00:24:41,233 --> 00:24:42,590
not all the time, but typically,

698
00:24:43,164 --> 00:24:45,478
are just really analyzing the shots that they

699
00:24:45,478 --> 00:24:47,314
need to hit and kind of have blind

700
00:24:47,314 --> 00:24:49,469
on and and probably have a lot of

701
00:24:49,469 --> 00:24:51,006
courses that they dislike

702
00:24:51,640 --> 00:24:53,660
because they don't fit their eye, or they

703
00:24:53,799 --> 00:24:55,799
didn't play well there. And so they're they're

704
00:24:55,799 --> 00:24:57,500
just not curious about

705
00:24:57,799 --> 00:24:58,839
courses and design.

706
00:24:59,894 --> 00:25:01,731
No. And look, maybe that was to my

707
00:25:01,731 --> 00:25:03,569
detriment as a player of perhaps for

708
00:25:04,209 --> 00:25:07,085
Yeah. I just... I I enjoyed history. I

709
00:25:07,085 --> 00:25:09,328
enjoyed reading about... Courses, I enjoyed reading about

710
00:25:09,328 --> 00:25:09,725
players.

711
00:25:11,549 --> 00:25:12,605
And and

712
00:25:13,454 --> 00:25:16,310
once I found sort of the confidential goal

713
00:25:16,310 --> 00:25:18,479
courses eyed and kind of started getting into

714
00:25:18,479 --> 00:25:21,033
the architecture that that became an interest even

715
00:25:21,033 --> 00:25:21,672
when I was playing.

716
00:25:22,390 --> 00:25:24,406
And then and I wasn't that comfortable

717
00:25:24,798 --> 00:25:26,310
probably wasn't well. I don't know whether I

718
00:25:26,310 --> 00:25:27,663
was good enough or not, but I had

719
00:25:27,663 --> 00:25:29,038
a couple of injuries and

720
00:25:29,652 --> 00:25:31,005
I was never that comfortable with the idea

721
00:25:31,005 --> 00:25:32,517
of playing professionally any anyway way to be

722
00:25:32,517 --> 00:25:34,601
honest. It's it seemed such a... Strange existence.

723
00:25:36,431 --> 00:25:37,249
And so

724
00:25:37,704 --> 00:25:38,897
I was in the right place at the

725
00:25:38,897 --> 00:25:40,409
right time and got a foot in the

726
00:25:40,409 --> 00:25:42,478
door with architecture, and and it was a

727
00:25:42,478 --> 00:25:43,948
pretty strange comfortable

728
00:25:44,323 --> 00:25:46,232
transition from from playing to that.

729
00:25:47,028 --> 00:25:50,153
Yeah. There's something to be explored there more

730
00:25:50,703 --> 00:25:50,943
about...

731
00:25:51,821 --> 00:25:52,939
I mean, I I don't think it's this

732
00:25:52,939 --> 00:25:54,695
is not a novel idea or not thing

733
00:25:54,695 --> 00:25:56,611
to say, But, you know, there's... The golf

734
00:25:56,611 --> 00:25:59,666
courses that are produced by firms run by

735
00:25:59,979 --> 00:26:02,294
former or active tour players,

736
00:26:04,050 --> 00:26:04,550
probably

737
00:26:05,406 --> 00:26:07,561
haven't and won't stand the test of time.

738
00:26:07,801 --> 00:26:09,888
You know, They're they're not going to generally

739
00:26:09,888 --> 00:26:11,560
be the golf courses that we look back

740
00:26:11,560 --> 00:26:13,550
on in 50 years or a hundred years

741
00:26:13,550 --> 00:26:16,655
and are still, you know, really enamored with.

742
00:26:16,988 --> 00:26:18,653
So there's... But so there's something about being

743
00:26:18,653 --> 00:26:20,000
a a great player and the way you

744
00:26:20,000 --> 00:26:21,055
see golf for

745
00:26:21,744 --> 00:26:24,042
the way your... The brain processes things that...

746
00:26:25,247 --> 00:26:27,255
Or or and perhaps it's just the clientele

747
00:26:27,548 --> 00:26:30,087
that hires you to. They're not interested as...

748
00:26:30,881 --> 00:26:32,964
Yeah. Yeah. You know, they're they're interested in

749
00:26:32,964 --> 00:26:34,636
selling homes or or they have a resort.

750
00:26:34,875 --> 00:26:36,149
So there's a lot of things that go

751
00:26:36,149 --> 00:26:37,822
into it, but, you know, that... I don't

752
00:26:37,822 --> 00:26:39,517
think history will be kind to

753
00:26:39,893 --> 00:26:40,393
professional

754
00:26:40,783 --> 00:26:41,816
tour player designers.

755
00:26:42,451 --> 00:26:44,278
They had their moment in the eighties and

756
00:26:44,278 --> 00:26:47,057
nineties. And Yeah. In fact, I don't... Other

757
00:26:47,057 --> 00:26:48,169
than, you know, obviously,

758
00:26:49,361 --> 00:26:49,837
your firm,

759
00:26:50,408 --> 00:26:52,733
and there might... I'm probably forgetting something, but

760
00:26:53,264 --> 00:26:54,613
I'm not sure if there's going to be

761
00:26:54,613 --> 00:26:56,993
a next generation of tour players who are

762
00:26:56,993 --> 00:26:58,342
active in building golf courses.

763
00:26:58,914 --> 00:27:00,290
I'd be curious to know

764
00:27:00,907 --> 00:27:03,378
who those potential players might be. There's probably

765
00:27:03,378 --> 00:27:04,654
a few people that are interested in it,

766
00:27:04,813 --> 00:27:07,420
but, you know, just the epidemic economics that

767
00:27:07,938 --> 00:27:09,373
and what kind of courses are being built

768
00:27:09,373 --> 00:27:10,569
and where seems...

769
00:27:11,765 --> 00:27:13,121
That there doesn't seem to be a clear

770
00:27:13,121 --> 00:27:15,911
avenue or a lane for professional player architect

771
00:27:15,911 --> 00:27:16,071
now.

772
00:27:17,204 --> 00:27:18,585
1, and I think 2 that

773
00:27:19,044 --> 00:27:20,884
it seems like people have moved past that

774
00:27:20,884 --> 00:27:22,404
this idea that you had to be a

775
00:27:22,404 --> 00:27:24,005
great player in order to build a good.

776
00:27:24,739 --> 00:27:27,205
Golf course. It's a bit light, you know,

777
00:27:27,365 --> 00:27:28,479
that you had to be a good player

778
00:27:28,479 --> 00:27:29,911
to be a good coach. I mean, know

779
00:27:29,911 --> 00:27:29,991
it.

780
00:27:31,583 --> 00:27:33,334
Everyone understands that that's not the case. Yeah.

781
00:27:33,731 --> 00:27:33,891
Anymore.

782
00:27:34,940 --> 00:27:36,236
And I think even,

783
00:27:36,770 --> 00:27:38,520
you know, 20 years ago, no 1 knew

784
00:27:38,520 --> 00:27:40,748
who Tom Do was in Australia whereas now.

785
00:27:41,559 --> 00:27:43,792
Most members of golf courses know who Ton

786
00:27:43,792 --> 00:27:46,344
is or Gill Hands or, you know, core.

787
00:27:46,504 --> 00:27:48,179
And so I think everyone's kind of move

788
00:27:48,179 --> 00:27:49,556
past this notion of

789
00:27:49,933 --> 00:27:50,970
having a, you know,

790
00:27:51,702 --> 00:27:53,635
that you have to have some major winner

791
00:27:54,011 --> 00:27:55,763
in order to produce a good golf course.

792
00:27:56,082 --> 00:27:56,582
So

793
00:27:57,037 --> 00:27:58,869
so... Yes. So may maybe it'll maybe we

794
00:27:58,869 --> 00:28:00,556
just won't see it again. Maybe it'll be

795
00:28:00,556 --> 00:28:02,386
just, you know, actual architects.

796
00:28:03,978 --> 00:28:05,570
The thing I was going to get out

797
00:28:05,570 --> 00:28:08,615
was you you mentioned Cad. Right And I'd

798
00:28:08,615 --> 00:28:10,055
be curious to know, like, you said you

799
00:28:10,055 --> 00:28:11,654
play maybe 10:15 rounds a year and they're

800
00:28:11,654 --> 00:28:12,535
usually at nice places.

801
00:28:13,575 --> 00:28:14,455
When I play... I...

802
00:28:15,507 --> 00:28:17,738
I think over the last couple years, I've

803
00:28:17,738 --> 00:28:21,085
probably only played a handful rounds without a

804
00:28:21,085 --> 00:28:23,236
cad. Just it's just for whatever for these

805
00:28:23,236 --> 00:28:24,431
reasons wherever I go.

806
00:28:25,085 --> 00:28:26,605
There's if there's a cad program,

807
00:28:27,085 --> 00:28:28,305
and, you know, and

808
00:28:28,924 --> 00:28:31,005
and they're professional cad for the most part.

809
00:28:31,164 --> 00:28:32,205
They're not, you know,

810
00:28:33,819 --> 00:28:35,737
not like an Ireland where you get got

811
00:28:35,737 --> 00:28:37,654
kieran off the, you know, off the street,

812
00:28:37,814 --> 00:28:40,611
he gonna smoke 18 cigarettes says you know

813
00:28:40,611 --> 00:28:42,379
when you go around, Yeah. You know, these

814
00:28:42,379 --> 00:28:43,809
are these are guys who who do this

815
00:28:43,809 --> 00:28:45,794
for a living. Yeah. And I just wonder

816
00:28:45,794 --> 00:28:47,700
it at that at that level of golf

817
00:28:47,700 --> 00:28:49,845
at the club level in these destination clubs

818
00:28:49,845 --> 00:28:51,768
and and the abandoned Dune. Of the world.

819
00:28:51,927 --> 00:28:52,007
If...

820
00:28:53,203 --> 00:28:54,558
I don't know Almost gotten to the point

821
00:28:54,558 --> 00:28:55,058
where

822
00:28:56,232 --> 00:28:57,986
I'd I I just really look forward to

823
00:28:57,986 --> 00:29:00,233
not playing not having a cad of would

824
00:29:00,233 --> 00:29:02,306
love to put my, bag on my shoulder

825
00:29:02,306 --> 00:29:04,379
and walker or, you know, do the Australian.

826
00:29:04,539 --> 00:29:05,655
What maybe think about is you said in

827
00:29:05,894 --> 00:29:07,409
Australian, you know that just not a cat

828
00:29:07,409 --> 00:29:09,178
culture and people would just rather they're... Bag

829
00:29:09,178 --> 00:29:11,090
on a trolley and walk, and that's really

830
00:29:11,090 --> 00:29:12,604
refreshing to me. I'd I'd like it to

831
00:29:12,604 --> 00:29:13,104
not

832
00:29:13,640 --> 00:29:15,233
to not have less of a cat culture.

833
00:29:15,791 --> 00:29:17,305
At some of these places that I've visit.

834
00:29:19,470 --> 00:29:19,628
Yeah.

835
00:29:20,741 --> 00:29:22,092
And I guess it's what you used to,

836
00:29:22,251 --> 00:29:22,751
but

837
00:29:23,204 --> 00:29:23,704
I

838
00:29:24,158 --> 00:29:25,827
look a small percentage of my rounds would

839
00:29:25,827 --> 00:29:26,304
have a cat.

840
00:29:28,627 --> 00:29:30,302
And if I'm just playing with friends.

841
00:29:30,860 --> 00:29:32,615
I mean, it's nice. But, yeah, I I

842
00:29:32,615 --> 00:29:35,008
still quite like just pulling my bag and

843
00:29:35,008 --> 00:29:36,762
just kind of wandering around the golf course

844
00:29:36,762 --> 00:29:37,262
and

845
00:29:38,924 --> 00:29:40,510
spending some... You know, even even though I'm

846
00:29:40,510 --> 00:29:42,097
just playing by myself, it's just kind of

847
00:29:42,097 --> 00:29:44,239
a nice way to unwind and, you know,

848
00:29:45,048 --> 00:29:46,876
play a bit all. And Not feel like

849
00:29:46,876 --> 00:29:49,181
after, you know? Yeah. Have to be on

850
00:29:49,181 --> 00:29:51,168
with the cat the whole time. Exactly. Yeah.

851
00:29:51,486 --> 00:29:53,328
I mean, it's it's it... It's nice to

852
00:29:53,328 --> 00:29:55,235
do it occasionally as a treat. Yeah. And

853
00:29:55,235 --> 00:29:56,745
you and everyone's shoulder, you'll get in you'll

854
00:29:56,745 --> 00:29:58,334
get a cad that you really connect with

855
00:29:58,334 --> 00:30:00,797
or, you know, you need the cad to

856
00:30:00,797 --> 00:30:02,955
read... Some really difficult punch or whatever if

857
00:30:02,955 --> 00:30:05,178
you care about that. But, yeah, it... Yeah...

858
00:30:05,336 --> 00:30:07,083
There's also a lot to be said for

859
00:30:07,083 --> 00:30:08,724
figuring it on your own, you know, just

860
00:30:08,923 --> 00:30:11,469
being independent and thinking through it and being

861
00:30:11,469 --> 00:30:13,799
calm and not having to carry on a

862
00:30:13,936 --> 00:30:14,095
conversation.

863
00:30:15,049 --> 00:30:17,296
Yeah. Yeah. Sometimes it's a lot of pressure,

864
00:30:17,456 --> 00:30:19,552
You know. It's like you feel after

865
00:30:20,090 --> 00:30:20,409
you know,

866
00:30:21,207 --> 00:30:23,362
after to entertain them as well. So sometimes,

867
00:30:23,681 --> 00:30:24,375
sometimes. Yeah

868
00:30:25,289 --> 00:30:27,197
you know, they're they're... We're doing this thing

869
00:30:27,197 --> 00:30:28,708
at golf digest and trying to come up

870
00:30:28,708 --> 00:30:29,503
with a this...

871
00:30:30,377 --> 00:30:31,729
For just for a a fun story of,

872
00:30:31,808 --> 00:30:33,717
you know, like, courses, you know, this week

873
00:30:33,717 --> 00:30:36,273
though... Open was at at t. So courses

874
00:30:36,273 --> 00:30:38,973
in the Us that, you know, aren't really

875
00:30:38,973 --> 00:30:41,117
links, but either look like a links or

876
00:30:41,117 --> 00:30:42,387
play like a link. So we came up

877
00:30:42,387 --> 00:30:43,182
with a list of courses.

878
00:30:43,754 --> 00:30:45,530
And and it it occurred to me that

879
00:30:45,748 --> 00:30:46,567
there's another

880
00:30:46,944 --> 00:30:48,380
variation on that thing. You know, you always

881
00:30:48,380 --> 00:30:50,294
hear that in different places around the world,

882
00:30:50,374 --> 00:30:52,128
you know, this is a links like course

883
00:30:52,128 --> 00:30:54,297
or they even actually describe courses that aren't

884
00:30:54,297 --> 00:30:55,993
links as links. There's also,

885
00:30:56,371 --> 00:30:58,285
you know, going back for quite a while.

886
00:30:58,444 --> 00:31:00,917
The idea of, like, you hear this course

887
00:31:00,917 --> 00:31:02,911
is was designed or this architecture was trying

888
00:31:02,911 --> 00:31:05,322
to do, like, sand built style of golf

889
00:31:05,322 --> 00:31:06,361
course. Mh.

890
00:31:07,000 --> 00:31:08,998
What does that mean to you? What... We

891
00:31:08,998 --> 00:31:09,877
you mentioned it

892
00:31:10,516 --> 00:31:13,089
a minute ago with than interesting greens and

893
00:31:13,089 --> 00:31:14,289
the use of short grass and other things.

894
00:31:14,450 --> 00:31:15,730
But what... Can you take that a step

895
00:31:15,730 --> 00:31:18,769
farther tell us what kind of the sand

896
00:31:18,769 --> 00:31:20,230
belt thing is and white

897
00:31:20,703 --> 00:31:22,853
And more importantly, why is it so hard

898
00:31:22,853 --> 00:31:23,513
to replicate

899
00:31:24,367 --> 00:31:25,663
if it's ever actually

900
00:31:26,278 --> 00:31:28,588
really been replicate replicated outside of Melbourne?

901
00:31:29,638 --> 00:31:29,876
Yeah.

902
00:31:31,383 --> 00:31:33,764
I think it can be replicated outside Melbourne

903
00:31:33,764 --> 00:31:34,399
a lot of people,

904
00:31:35,351 --> 00:31:37,692
you know, they talk about that... The angular

905
00:31:37,749 --> 00:31:39,261
sands, and it's the only place in the

906
00:31:39,261 --> 00:31:41,569
world that you can build bunker that cut

907
00:31:41,569 --> 00:31:42,444
right into a green.

908
00:31:43,081 --> 00:31:43,638
Is that true?

909
00:31:45,008 --> 00:31:47,481
I that. We've just down at the full

910
00:31:47,481 --> 00:31:50,593
line. So down in Georgia. Mh. But it

911
00:31:50,593 --> 00:31:51,924
just have to do... I mean, they're the

912
00:31:52,363 --> 00:31:53,661
quality, Their actual

913
00:31:54,119 --> 00:31:56,273
type of sand does have something to do

914
00:31:56,273 --> 00:31:56,513
with it.

915
00:31:57,311 --> 00:31:59,839
It it does. It it does. But that

916
00:31:59,959 --> 00:32:01,475
I find it hard to believe that Melbourne

917
00:32:01,475 --> 00:32:02,831
is the only place in the world that

918
00:32:02,831 --> 00:32:04,188
has angular sand.

919
00:32:05,384 --> 00:32:07,634
In a in a moderate climate that Where

920
00:32:07,634 --> 00:32:09,550
you're growing Bank grass on on the greens

921
00:32:09,550 --> 00:32:11,466
and boom bermuda to fairway. Like, there there

922
00:32:11,466 --> 00:32:13,063
we are. There are other places in the

923
00:32:13,063 --> 00:32:14,920
world that that would have those characteristics.

924
00:32:17,309 --> 00:32:19,223
It's it's a combination of things. That certainly

925
00:32:19,223 --> 00:32:20,101
wood fin angles,

926
00:32:20,659 --> 00:32:23,929
greens are typically tilt. They're not generally not

927
00:32:23,929 --> 00:32:26,003
heavily un and not with a lot of

928
00:32:26,003 --> 00:32:26,880
internal contour.

929
00:32:27,214 --> 00:32:29,846
You... Usually, they're kind long grades that tie

930
00:32:29,846 --> 00:32:32,079
into whether it's a surrounding man or a

931
00:32:32,079 --> 00:32:32,797
surrounding bunker.

932
00:32:34,312 --> 00:32:35,588
Firm, firm and fast.

933
00:32:36,879 --> 00:32:37,379
And

934
00:32:37,918 --> 00:32:40,096
I think the style of the bunker, which

935
00:32:40,714 --> 00:32:42,173
sort of goes back to

936
00:32:42,632 --> 00:32:45,123
Alas and Mackenzie visit, but but really 2

937
00:32:45,123 --> 00:32:46,801
un undone heroes of the Sand belt, which

938
00:32:46,801 --> 00:32:49,837
was Mick, who was the superintendent, Rom Melbourne

939
00:32:49,837 --> 00:32:50,656
and his Son,

940
00:32:51,529 --> 00:32:54,163
who was the superintendent Kingston Heath for 46

941
00:32:54,163 --> 00:32:54,483
years.

942
00:32:55,520 --> 00:32:58,554
They really developed that Sand belt style of

943
00:32:58,554 --> 00:32:59,352
bunker, and it's...

944
00:33:00,484 --> 00:33:00,984
It's

945
00:33:01,523 --> 00:33:01,923
unclear,

946
00:33:02,801 --> 00:33:04,080
a very searched at a lot.

947
00:33:05,199 --> 00:33:05,699
And

948
00:33:07,436 --> 00:33:10,006
what what influenced he had on those 2

949
00:33:10,006 --> 00:33:12,719
is really difficult to say. I think certainly,

950
00:33:12,878 --> 00:33:13,995
when you when you look at some of

951
00:33:13,995 --> 00:33:16,244
the bunker at say more town and some

952
00:33:16,244 --> 00:33:18,642
of Mackenzie bunker at a at a couple

953
00:33:18,642 --> 00:33:20,560
of courses before he came to Australia,

954
00:33:21,919 --> 00:33:24,076
there's sort of the capes and bay of

955
00:33:24,076 --> 00:33:25,515
of of the bunker style.

956
00:33:26,807 --> 00:33:28,822
So I I feel like he definitely

957
00:33:29,598 --> 00:33:30,258
sort of

958
00:33:30,875 --> 00:33:32,709
educated them, but then they took it a

959
00:33:32,709 --> 00:33:34,384
step further because then he disappeared. He was

960
00:33:34,384 --> 00:33:35,341
only here for 10 weeks.

961
00:33:35,994 --> 00:33:38,403
They didn't communicate. It's not like they were

962
00:33:38,460 --> 00:33:40,369
taking photos and writing letters and going back

963
00:33:40,369 --> 00:33:41,642
and forth or sending emails.

964
00:33:42,994 --> 00:33:44,108
So they really then...

965
00:33:44,918 --> 00:33:47,774
Took that... Took the knowledge and and really

966
00:33:47,774 --> 00:33:48,274
developed

967
00:33:48,726 --> 00:33:49,623
that sort of

968
00:33:50,154 --> 00:33:50,551
unique

969
00:33:51,186 --> 00:33:52,455
Sand style of Bunker.

970
00:33:53,344 --> 00:33:55,180
So there there probably some of the factors

971
00:33:55,339 --> 00:33:56,776
I would say to go into building a

972
00:33:56,776 --> 00:33:58,692
sand belt of course, you you do hear

973
00:33:58,692 --> 00:34:00,208
it a lot that this was built in

974
00:34:00,208 --> 00:34:02,296
a sand belt style and you look at

975
00:34:02,296 --> 00:34:04,045
it, and it's it's it's not sand belt

976
00:34:04,045 --> 00:34:04,363
at all.

977
00:34:05,476 --> 00:34:07,225
We also have sort of some nice textures

978
00:34:07,225 --> 00:34:08,894
in the raft. You know, It's not pristine.

979
00:34:10,262 --> 00:34:11,957
You know, 2 inch rough. It's

980
00:34:12,652 --> 00:34:14,245
typically, there's a little bit of maintained rough

981
00:34:14,245 --> 00:34:15,440
on the edge of the fairway, but then

982
00:34:15,440 --> 00:34:16,577
it goes into

983
00:34:17,449 --> 00:34:19,766
whether it's sand, whether it's heath, whether it's

984
00:34:19,766 --> 00:34:22,743
kind of long ish urban grass or. It's

985
00:34:22,882 --> 00:34:24,640
it's it's got a rugged nest to it,

986
00:34:25,295 --> 00:34:27,295
so, you know, off the fairway is is

987
00:34:27,295 --> 00:34:28,014
fairly rugged.

988
00:34:28,734 --> 00:34:31,054
Had, you know, shares has some similarities with

989
00:34:31,054 --> 00:34:33,295
the he land around London, I guess, different

990
00:34:33,295 --> 00:34:35,228
bunker ring style, but sort of the use

991
00:34:35,228 --> 00:34:37,462
of heath tea carries and on the backside

992
00:34:37,462 --> 00:34:38,420
of bunker. Mh.

993
00:34:39,378 --> 00:34:40,815
It's somewhat similar of the sand belt as

994
00:34:40,815 --> 00:34:41,054
well.

995
00:34:43,303 --> 00:34:44,817
So, yeah. So for a long time, you

996
00:34:44,817 --> 00:34:46,649
know, people have said it's, you know, in

997
00:34:46,649 --> 00:34:48,482
place you could build a sand belt style

998
00:34:48,482 --> 00:34:50,632
course because of these, you know, the the

999
00:34:50,632 --> 00:34:52,958
angular sands, which are... Which are out the

1000
00:34:52,958 --> 00:34:54,634
edge of the greens to get quite compact.

1001
00:34:56,069 --> 00:34:57,585
And, you know, to be able to mow

1002
00:34:57,585 --> 00:34:59,100
the bank grass right to the edge of

1003
00:34:59,100 --> 00:35:00,137
the bunker. Yeah.

1004
00:35:00,855 --> 00:35:02,312
And that's really been a modern

1005
00:35:03,101 --> 00:35:03,420
phenomenon

1006
00:35:04,136 --> 00:35:06,682
the superintendent at Metropolitan and started that trend

1007
00:35:06,682 --> 00:35:08,751
in the nineties. Prior to that, we always

1008
00:35:08,751 --> 00:35:09,489
had a collar

1009
00:35:10,038 --> 00:35:11,229
of of of

1010
00:35:12,023 --> 00:35:13,849
sort of fairway length grass between the edge

1011
00:35:13,849 --> 00:35:15,676
of the the green and the bunker. But

1012
00:35:15,676 --> 00:35:16,176
then

1013
00:35:16,629 --> 00:35:17,979
he pushed the green right to the edge

1014
00:35:17,979 --> 00:35:20,385
of the bunker and then basically everyone followed

1015
00:35:20,385 --> 00:35:21,845
suit. Interesting. Yeah

1016
00:35:22,465 --> 00:35:23,425
He went to Royal Melbourne,

1017
00:35:23,985 --> 00:35:26,385
then we we built peninsula at Kings and

1018
00:35:26,385 --> 00:35:27,744
and wanted to do the same thing.

1019
00:35:28,718 --> 00:35:31,340
And then Woodlands follow, we did Victoria. And

1020
00:35:31,340 --> 00:35:33,246
and yet, now it's become kind of synonymous

1021
00:35:33,246 --> 00:35:34,994
with the Sand belt. And everyone from overseas

1022
00:35:34,994 --> 00:35:36,344
loves it, like in such a cool look.

1023
00:35:38,664 --> 00:35:41,144
Yeah. So that's... That when we in doing

1024
00:35:41,144 --> 00:35:42,744
the full line, we we were quite keen

1025
00:35:42,744 --> 00:35:43,644
to try and

1026
00:35:44,105 --> 00:35:45,545
do the same thing, even though it's for

1027
00:35:45,545 --> 00:35:46,744
bermuda to grass, not in grass.

1028
00:35:48,198 --> 00:35:49,716
And, yet, there's a few tricks. There's a

1029
00:35:49,716 --> 00:35:52,373
few ways that you can kind of create

1030
00:35:52,432 --> 00:35:53,471
stability on the bunker.

1031
00:35:54,602 --> 00:35:56,745
Even without that angular sands, and that's that's

1032
00:35:56,745 --> 00:35:58,173
kind of what we've done there. So we've

1033
00:35:58,173 --> 00:36:00,237
we've definitely given a December look, but,

1034
00:36:01,110 --> 00:36:03,016
even in in the absence of the exact...

1035
00:36:03,269 --> 00:36:04,780
Same sand that you would find it mel.

1036
00:36:05,734 --> 00:36:07,427
Other than that, have you seen

1037
00:36:08,676 --> 00:36:10,903
courses or architects who have really pulled off

1038
00:36:10,903 --> 00:36:13,323
a... A sand belt style course

1039
00:36:13,934 --> 00:36:14,568
outside of Melbourne.

1040
00:36:18,138 --> 00:36:19,699
Not really. I mean, other parts of a

1041
00:36:19,818 --> 00:36:21,403
value that you can you can definitely see

1042
00:36:21,403 --> 00:36:22,592
some sandal styles,

1043
00:36:23,385 --> 00:36:24,494
but not overseas.

1044
00:36:26,000 --> 00:36:27,684
And it's just ones the value the the

1045
00:36:27,684 --> 00:36:29,682
firm too. Like, it's so hard. You go

1046
00:36:29,682 --> 00:36:30,641
to a different climate.

1047
00:36:33,038 --> 00:36:34,556
You know, because we then have a great

1048
00:36:34,556 --> 00:36:36,890
amount of rainfall, And obviously, it's it it

1049
00:36:36,890 --> 00:36:37,530
it's sand,

1050
00:36:39,289 --> 00:36:39,789
the

1051
00:36:40,170 --> 00:36:42,010
the, you know, drains well,

1052
00:36:42,730 --> 00:36:44,090
and they have the ability to get the

1053
00:36:44,090 --> 00:36:46,144
greens incredibly firm. So it

1054
00:36:46,905 --> 00:36:48,664
I think that's why they've been able to

1055
00:36:48,664 --> 00:36:50,744
stay relevant even though they're quite short by

1056
00:36:50,744 --> 00:36:51,244
modern

1057
00:36:52,025 --> 00:36:54,265
standards. You know, the the longer Sand of

1058
00:36:54,265 --> 00:36:55,164
course is probably.

1059
00:36:56,276 --> 00:36:57,311
7200

1060
00:36:57,311 --> 00:37:00,335
yards, I would say. Most of around 7000

1061
00:37:00,335 --> 00:37:02,085
yards, but they... They're they're so firm and

1062
00:37:02,085 --> 00:37:03,597
fast that if you're... You, if you're at

1063
00:37:03,597 --> 00:37:05,442
a position, you just can't stop the ball

1064
00:37:05,442 --> 00:37:06,659
on the grain, whereas,

1065
00:37:07,432 --> 00:37:09,024
you know, a lot of these sort of

1066
00:37:09,024 --> 00:37:11,969
other sandal style costs are in climates where

1067
00:37:11,969 --> 00:37:13,561
the the grains are soft and the fairway

1068
00:37:13,561 --> 00:37:14,697
are soft and so

1069
00:37:15,008 --> 00:37:16,515
it may look a little bit like a

1070
00:37:16,515 --> 00:37:17,864
sand course, but it doesn't play like a

1071
00:37:17,943 --> 00:37:19,927
Sand course, and that's probably the distinction. You

1072
00:37:19,927 --> 00:37:21,276
know, you you could you can build a

1073
00:37:21,276 --> 00:37:22,625
course that looks Sand like.

1074
00:37:23,514 --> 00:37:25,269
Whether or not it plays as Sam of

1075
00:37:25,269 --> 00:37:27,823
course is the... That's the probably the trickier.

1076
00:37:28,781 --> 00:37:30,138
Think. Yeah. It's it's like...

1077
00:37:31,589 --> 00:37:32,868
You'd always hear, you know, this this is

1078
00:37:32,868 --> 00:37:34,546
a so and so links, and it's... You

1079
00:37:34,546 --> 00:37:35,686
know it's just a marketing

1080
00:37:36,224 --> 00:37:38,142
phrase. Yep. You know, There... Yes. It's just

1081
00:37:38,142 --> 00:37:39,981
for marketing purposes, This is a sand belt

1082
00:37:39,981 --> 00:37:42,780
course. But I have... I have heard architects

1083
00:37:42,780 --> 00:37:44,232
talk about it a little bit more,

1084
00:37:44,921 --> 00:37:45,794
in recent years,

1085
00:37:46,429 --> 00:37:48,491
and and I haven't been to Melbourne, So

1086
00:37:48,650 --> 00:37:48,808
I don't...

1087
00:37:49,539 --> 00:37:51,400
Haven't don't have experience, but

1088
00:37:51,860 --> 00:37:54,340
I certainly rarely come away thinking, okay. They

1089
00:37:54,340 --> 00:37:56,260
they nailed it there. Like that real, this

1090
00:37:56,260 --> 00:37:57,860
this is what I imagine a Sand belt

1091
00:37:57,860 --> 00:38:00,104
course. To to look and and play like.

1092
00:38:00,263 --> 00:38:02,648
So... Yeah. It's just a Yeah. It I

1093
00:38:02,648 --> 00:38:05,114
wish I just kinda wish it... We just

1094
00:38:05,114 --> 00:38:07,840
have a moratorium on on that marketing phrase

1095
00:38:08,547 --> 00:38:10,612
you know, In this... Unless you can actually

1096
00:38:10,612 --> 00:38:11,963
pull it off and you and you're actually

1097
00:38:11,963 --> 00:38:14,107
really trying to to to do it.

1098
00:38:14,901 --> 00:38:16,728
Yeah. Then let's just call what it is.

1099
00:38:18,173 --> 00:38:19,686
I think though ever at the moment and

1100
00:38:19,686 --> 00:38:20,880
we're guilty of it as well,

1101
00:38:21,517 --> 00:38:23,587
but it seems like everyone wants it angle

1102
00:38:23,587 --> 00:38:25,577
with the the the latest course. You know,

1103
00:38:25,736 --> 00:38:25,816
it's...

1104
00:38:26,627 --> 00:38:26,866
It's a

1105
00:38:27,742 --> 00:38:29,574
Or it's a rain or it's a sand

1106
00:38:29,574 --> 00:38:31,088
belt or it's to these sorts of that.

1107
00:38:31,565 --> 00:38:33,078
No one's really just say, you know, We

1108
00:38:33,078 --> 00:38:34,353
just wanna build a good golf course. No.

1109
00:38:34,512 --> 00:38:35,565
I know. White. Why is that?

1110
00:38:36,364 --> 00:38:37,804
I mean, you know, we'll we'll just figure

1111
00:38:37,804 --> 00:38:39,565
out the style. And build some nice bunker

1112
00:38:39,565 --> 00:38:40,684
and it is what it is. What do

1113
00:38:40,684 --> 00:38:42,304
you think that is? Is it just because

1114
00:38:43,492 --> 00:38:45,477
information travel so much more quickly. And I

1115
00:38:45,557 --> 00:38:47,701
I think the I think the average Iq

1116
00:38:47,701 --> 00:38:49,210
of the of the gulf for at least

1117
00:38:49,210 --> 00:38:50,663
in in the United States

1118
00:38:50,973 --> 00:38:53,280
has risen tremendously over the last 10 years.

1119
00:38:53,996 --> 00:38:55,427
In in parts due to, you know, the

1120
00:38:55,587 --> 00:38:56,462
Internet social media,

1121
00:38:57,098 --> 00:38:57,598
podcasts

1122
00:38:58,148 --> 00:39:00,139
So there's an audience out there who who

1123
00:39:00,139 --> 00:39:01,436
will pa

1124
00:39:02,052 --> 00:39:02,609
respond to,

1125
00:39:04,442 --> 00:39:06,831
Seth Rain templates or a sand belt style

1126
00:39:06,831 --> 00:39:07,150
of course.

1127
00:39:07,804 --> 00:39:09,163
Deep, is there some... Is is it that?

1128
00:39:09,242 --> 00:39:10,840
Or is there something else at play?

1129
00:39:11,720 --> 00:39:13,557
I don't know. I... You know, maybe it's...

1130
00:39:13,797 --> 00:39:15,316
Yeah. It could be that a a bit

1131
00:39:15,316 --> 00:39:17,410
of marketing? Perhaps just to try and get

1132
00:39:17,410 --> 00:39:20,130
people excited about something or well they want...

1133
00:39:20,690 --> 00:39:22,849
Maybe they want something that's tangible that they

1134
00:39:22,849 --> 00:39:25,010
can understand, you know, rather than just saying,

1135
00:39:25,090 --> 00:39:26,943
it'll just be know, it's just gonna build

1136
00:39:26,943 --> 00:39:28,220
a a nice golf course.

1137
00:39:29,657 --> 00:39:31,173
Adding, you know, it's gonna be in this

1138
00:39:31,173 --> 00:39:33,169
particular style or it's gonna be sort of

1139
00:39:33,169 --> 00:39:34,925
after a particular architect style,

1140
00:39:35,498 --> 00:39:37,165
maybe it just... It adds that little bit

1141
00:39:37,165 --> 00:39:37,665
of

1142
00:39:38,119 --> 00:39:39,333
tang ability that

1143
00:39:39,786 --> 00:39:42,090
gets them a bit more excited. But III

1144
00:39:42,090 --> 00:39:44,174
don't know, but it seems seems like every

1145
00:39:44,174 --> 00:39:46,251
single project has to have a angle at

1146
00:39:46,251 --> 00:39:47,929
the moment. It seems like it...

1147
00:39:48,648 --> 00:39:50,006
You know... I guess, there are a few

1148
00:39:50,006 --> 00:39:52,173
people, like... It to go back to Bill

1149
00:39:52,332 --> 00:39:53,842
Core, Yeah, I don't think that he ever

1150
00:39:53,842 --> 00:39:55,056
feels the need to

1151
00:39:55,589 --> 00:39:57,734
to dress up his intentions.

1152
00:39:58,625 --> 00:39:59,664
No. I mean, if you could talk to

1153
00:39:59,664 --> 00:40:02,065
him, he'd described what he's doing, but, the

1154
00:40:02,065 --> 00:40:03,204
the those types of

1155
00:40:03,744 --> 00:40:05,824
adjectives wouldn't probably come out of his mouth.

1156
00:40:05,985 --> 00:40:07,837
But, yeah, it does seem like... That's the

1157
00:40:07,837 --> 00:40:09,829
hook. You know, you need a, you know,

1158
00:40:09,989 --> 00:40:11,821
you need a the pamphlet. You need the

1159
00:40:11,821 --> 00:40:13,437
the sales pitch to get your

1160
00:40:13,893 --> 00:40:14,530
private jet,

1161
00:40:15,104 --> 00:40:16,463
hedge fund members,

1162
00:40:16,942 --> 00:40:18,321
private equity people

1163
00:40:18,780 --> 00:40:20,778
you know, to come out to to middle

1164
00:40:20,778 --> 00:40:22,776
of Texas or wherever that is that you're

1165
00:40:22,776 --> 00:40:23,575
driving the golf course,

1166
00:40:24,465 --> 00:40:26,765
Yeah. And, yeah, to, you know, we're we're

1167
00:40:26,765 --> 00:40:28,112
just as guilty confused as anywhere else, but

1168
00:40:28,112 --> 00:40:29,856
it's just, yeah, something I was thinking about

1169
00:40:29,856 --> 00:40:31,284
a little while ago that it seems like

1170
00:40:31,284 --> 00:40:33,685
every or most projects have certainly have an

1171
00:40:33,685 --> 00:40:35,596
angle. Yeah. It would be very refreshing for

1172
00:40:35,596 --> 00:40:37,666
someone just to say, yeah. Just, you know,

1173
00:40:38,064 --> 00:40:40,387
Just gonna build and greg golf. Course here.

1174
00:40:40,704 --> 00:40:42,851
Does not like anything else? Build the Try.

1175
00:40:43,089 --> 00:40:44,202
Gonna build the best golf, of course, we

1176
00:40:44,202 --> 00:40:46,109
can. And we'll just see with that. Yeah

1177
00:40:46,109 --> 00:40:47,699
what was it like for how how how

1178
00:40:47,699 --> 00:40:49,184
rewarding was it for you to work

1179
00:40:49,621 --> 00:40:52,080
in the the sand of of Georgia for

1180
00:40:52,080 --> 00:40:54,008
fall line. You know, that's

1181
00:40:54,698 --> 00:40:56,619
different in working at Med medina, for sure,

1182
00:40:56,699 --> 00:40:58,380
and and probably some of the other projects

1183
00:40:58,380 --> 00:41:00,300
that you've had in the past. Although you...

1184
00:41:00,539 --> 00:41:02,380
I think you've been pretty fortunate with the

1185
00:41:02,380 --> 00:41:04,392
sites that that you've worked on, but know,

1186
00:41:04,551 --> 00:41:05,820
that that seems to me well from what

1187
00:41:05,900 --> 00:41:08,518
I know about it, a really great opportunity

1188
00:41:08,518 --> 00:41:10,208
to work in an environment that's both

1189
00:41:10,740 --> 00:41:13,384
sand, you and just has, you know, the

1190
00:41:13,384 --> 00:41:16,016
the vegetation and and the the textures around

1191
00:41:16,016 --> 00:41:16,175
it.

1192
00:41:17,611 --> 00:41:18,329
Yeah. Absolutely.

1193
00:41:19,047 --> 00:41:20,982
Well, into, you know, it was

1194
00:41:22,175 --> 00:41:23,155
1 of the first

1195
00:41:24,175 --> 00:41:26,335
chances we'd had to to rat a golf

1196
00:41:26,335 --> 00:41:29,215
course and and actually build it. You know,

1197
00:41:29,454 --> 00:41:29,614
I mean,

1198
00:41:31,069 --> 00:41:31,966
Yeah routing

1199
00:41:32,500 --> 00:41:35,283
important part of architecture and, you know, in

1200
00:41:35,283 --> 00:41:37,271
in your formative years and as as we've

1201
00:41:37,271 --> 00:41:38,941
done a lot of renovation work, you don't

1202
00:41:38,941 --> 00:41:40,905
get to test that ability. You know, in

1203
00:41:41,024 --> 00:41:42,619
you can practice it and you can study

1204
00:41:42,619 --> 00:41:45,966
it, but actually getting that rare opportunity is,

1205
00:41:46,205 --> 00:41:49,075
you know, it's probably gonna become less and

1206
00:41:49,075 --> 00:41:50,686
less common, You know, just as there's fewer

1207
00:41:50,686 --> 00:41:52,681
and few it already. I mean, I think

1208
00:41:52,681 --> 00:41:53,319
there are probably,

1209
00:41:55,313 --> 00:41:57,642
less than a dozen architects right working in

1210
00:41:57,642 --> 00:41:59,396
the world right now who really get to

1211
00:41:59,396 --> 00:42:00,273
route golf courses.

1212
00:42:01,150 --> 00:42:02,665
Yeah. Back in the night... At eighties and

1213
00:42:02,665 --> 00:42:05,217
nineties, there were dozens if not hundreds, everybody

1214
00:42:05,217 --> 00:42:07,787
did it. But Now it's a rare privilege.

1215
00:42:08,905 --> 00:42:11,542
Yeah. And, you know, and and sometimes you

1216
00:42:11,542 --> 00:42:14,294
get to route courses, but that... It never

1217
00:42:14,912 --> 00:42:17,149
they never happened for for whatever reason or...

1218
00:42:18,188 --> 00:42:18,927
And so

1219
00:42:19,386 --> 00:42:20,480
I... Yeah. I feel

1220
00:42:21,159 --> 00:42:23,159
we're very privileged that in in 6 months,

1221
00:42:23,320 --> 00:42:24,380
we got to route,

1222
00:42:25,159 --> 00:42:27,079
you know, 5 or 6 golf courses, you

1223
00:42:27,079 --> 00:42:29,239
know, up here at Tip ton in in

1224
00:42:29,239 --> 00:42:30,855
tech access for doing course, and then the

1225
00:42:30,855 --> 00:42:32,454
full line, there's actually 3 courses.

1226
00:42:33,655 --> 00:42:35,655
Really, there's... Well, there's 36 holes in a

1227
00:42:35,655 --> 00:42:36,795
short course. So

1228
00:42:37,428 --> 00:42:39,418
Yep. So so... And that was a a

1229
00:42:39,418 --> 00:42:41,032
huge, you know, undertaking

1230
00:42:41,646 --> 00:42:42,703
it really took

1231
00:42:43,317 --> 00:42:45,250
probably 6 months to get the

1232
00:42:45,943 --> 00:42:46,443
that

1233
00:42:46,834 --> 00:42:48,503
to get the 30 sixth now down and

1234
00:42:48,503 --> 00:42:50,093
they're just as a as a process because

1235
00:42:50,093 --> 00:42:51,683
it was it was a thick forest of

1236
00:42:51,683 --> 00:42:52,978
of pine. So

1237
00:42:53,353 --> 00:42:54,329
we would sort of

1238
00:42:54,958 --> 00:42:56,735
you know, study that the

1239
00:42:57,989 --> 00:42:59,983
contour plan and then spend time in the

1240
00:42:59,983 --> 00:43:01,817
field. We had a we had an interesting

1241
00:43:01,817 --> 00:43:04,231
hiking app actually, which was really valuable. So

1242
00:43:05,262 --> 00:43:06,859
we've never used it before, but you're able

1243
00:43:06,859 --> 00:43:07,359
to

1244
00:43:08,056 --> 00:43:09,891
have the contour plan on the hiking app

1245
00:43:09,891 --> 00:43:11,169
and then you could kind of plot your

1246
00:43:11,169 --> 00:43:13,259
path as you walked that you walked during

1247
00:43:13,259 --> 00:43:14,855
the day and you could kind of drop

1248
00:43:14,855 --> 00:43:15,754
pins on

1249
00:43:16,211 --> 00:43:19,403
interesting features or interesting green sites. And and

1250
00:43:19,403 --> 00:43:20,934
then you'd sort of go back during Actually,

1251
00:43:21,015 --> 00:43:22,295
and I'd go back to the house and

1252
00:43:22,295 --> 00:43:23,494
do a bit of a brain dump and

1253
00:43:23,494 --> 00:43:25,574
then kinda keep working on the routing plan,

1254
00:43:25,735 --> 00:43:27,414
and we we did that over the course

1255
00:43:27,414 --> 00:43:27,914
of

1256
00:43:28,309 --> 00:43:30,230
6 months, and then and then had the

1257
00:43:30,230 --> 00:43:31,530
contractor clearing trees

1258
00:43:32,070 --> 00:43:34,309
that we were pretty confident we'll go. And

1259
00:43:34,309 --> 00:43:35,929
so it just... It was this

1260
00:43:36,723 --> 00:43:38,479
it was a it was a process, but

1261
00:43:38,479 --> 00:43:38,559
it...

1262
00:43:39,357 --> 00:43:41,672
I think it yielded a fantastic result because

1263
00:43:41,672 --> 00:43:43,427
we didn't just clear the property. We were

1264
00:43:43,427 --> 00:43:46,317
very careful about. Clearing center lines and then

1265
00:43:46,317 --> 00:43:48,791
slowly opening the holes up out and

1266
00:43:49,590 --> 00:43:51,586
sort of going, you know, perhaps doing 4

1267
00:43:51,586 --> 00:43:53,741
or 5 sweep down every hole until we

1268
00:43:53,741 --> 00:43:54,481
got the

1269
00:43:54,794 --> 00:43:55,991
spacing of the trees right,

1270
00:43:57,746 --> 00:43:59,102
whereas you could have come in and just

1271
00:43:59,102 --> 00:44:01,097
removed every tree on the, you know, in

1272
00:44:01,097 --> 00:44:01,996
a in a

1273
00:44:02,710 --> 00:44:04,710
300 acre area, but it it would have

1274
00:44:04,710 --> 00:44:06,630
been to the detriment of the share the

1275
00:44:06,630 --> 00:44:09,110
courses. Yeah. Yeah. Trees are trees are okay.

1276
00:44:09,284 --> 00:44:11,602
I don't red pine. You don't have to

1277
00:44:11,602 --> 00:44:12,481
lead them remove everything.

1278
00:44:13,120 --> 00:44:15,278
These are nice, so, you know, they're kind

1279
00:44:15,278 --> 00:44:17,916
of beautiful long leaf pines and and... Yeah.

1280
00:44:18,076 --> 00:44:18,576
So

1281
00:44:18,969 --> 00:44:20,562
Back to your original question. Yeah. It's it's

1282
00:44:20,562 --> 00:44:22,576
a it's a beautiful property. It's a

1283
00:44:23,191 --> 00:44:25,740
kind of a... It's probably 60 foot elevation

1284
00:44:25,740 --> 00:44:29,040
chance... Range all sand, very long grades. So

1285
00:44:29,574 --> 00:44:30,313
it looked

1286
00:44:30,926 --> 00:44:32,438
to us, it looked very much. It looked

1287
00:44:32,438 --> 00:44:33,804
a bit like the sand belt, but it

1288
00:44:33,804 --> 00:44:35,235
also looked like. I don't whether you ever

1289
00:44:35,235 --> 00:44:36,985
seen there's some old black and white photos

1290
00:44:36,985 --> 00:44:39,313
of Sw Forest and Sunny being built

1291
00:44:40,960 --> 00:44:42,728
with the back in, you know? Yeah. I

1292
00:44:42,728 --> 00:44:44,162
don't know if I have or not. The

1293
00:44:44,162 --> 00:44:45,915
twenties. Mh. You know And and it sort

1294
00:44:45,915 --> 00:44:47,748
of shows them using Diamond might to blow

1295
00:44:47,748 --> 00:44:47,828
up,

1296
00:44:48,799 --> 00:44:50,628
you know, tree stump and things like that.

1297
00:44:50,787 --> 00:44:53,651
But but it's it looked a lot like

1298
00:44:53,651 --> 00:44:56,132
those photos. It looked like the old, photos

1299
00:44:56,132 --> 00:44:58,200
of the heath kind of being built. I

1300
00:44:58,200 --> 00:44:59,712
think because of the pine trees and the

1301
00:44:59,712 --> 00:45:01,723
and the the sand and sort of this

1302
00:45:02,018 --> 00:45:02,710
low scrubbing

1303
00:45:03,148 --> 00:45:04,342
vegetation that looked a little bit like, you

1304
00:45:04,342 --> 00:45:06,275
know, heather if you like. So

1305
00:45:06,731 --> 00:45:08,800
from the start, it reminded us a lot

1306
00:45:08,800 --> 00:45:10,415
of, like a cross between

1307
00:45:11,364 --> 00:45:13,832
the he land, the sand belt and probably

1308
00:45:13,911 --> 00:45:15,583
Pond Valley pots of pine Valley sure as

1309
00:45:15,583 --> 00:45:15,822
well.

1310
00:45:16,778 --> 00:45:18,689
That was kind of our Canvas if you

1311
00:45:18,689 --> 00:45:18,928
like,

1312
00:45:20,059 --> 00:45:21,900
And it was a very interesting product.

1313
00:45:23,740 --> 00:45:25,019
It's it it was kind of that the

1314
00:45:25,019 --> 00:45:27,260
property there has got, like, 3 high points,

1315
00:45:27,500 --> 00:45:29,675
1 left, 1 middle and 1 right. Are

1316
00:45:29,675 --> 00:45:31,434
all about 60 foot high and then this

1317
00:45:31,434 --> 00:45:32,715
kind of valleys in between.

1318
00:45:33,994 --> 00:45:35,534
And we pretty quickly realized

1319
00:45:36,474 --> 00:45:38,500
that it started out as an 18 hole

1320
00:45:39,034 --> 00:45:42,134
design, but you couldn't use all 3 parcels

1321
00:45:42,134 --> 00:45:43,883
in 18 holes. They were too far apart.

1322
00:45:44,534 --> 00:45:46,373
And so we we started actually on a

1323
00:45:46,373 --> 00:45:48,850
a 27 hole routing, which... And it I

1324
00:45:48,850 --> 00:45:49,809
had kind of a nice,

1325
00:45:50,848 --> 00:45:51,748
and interesting

1326
00:45:56,214 --> 00:45:58,527
design sort of characteristic where we thought you

1327
00:45:58,527 --> 00:45:59,005
could play...

1328
00:46:00,122 --> 00:46:02,276
If the central 9 had alternate greens or

1329
00:46:02,276 --> 00:46:04,681
alternate tees, you could you could play that

1330
00:46:04,681 --> 00:46:06,345
the Western 9 and the central 9 is

1331
00:46:06,345 --> 00:46:08,271
01:18, and then you could play the central

1332
00:46:08,484 --> 00:46:10,385
9 in the eastern 9 is another 18,

1333
00:46:10,782 --> 00:46:12,782
but only built that 7 holes if if

1334
00:46:12,782 --> 00:46:15,010
you like. And we we... We're the, like

1335
00:46:15,010 --> 00:46:17,101
that idea, but then it the project

1336
00:46:17,476 --> 00:46:19,067
got bigger and bigger and then sort of

1337
00:46:19,067 --> 00:46:21,151
27 became 36, 20 And then

1338
00:46:22,503 --> 00:46:24,175
and then we started thinking if it's if

1339
00:46:24,175 --> 00:46:26,722
it's 36, do you build 36 in the

1340
00:46:26,722 --> 00:46:29,427
same style like Royal Melbourne? And then potentially

1341
00:46:29,427 --> 00:46:31,356
have... And throws up the idea of composite

1342
00:46:31,356 --> 00:46:33,511
courses and things like that? Or do you

1343
00:46:33,511 --> 00:46:34,969
go down the path of building

1344
00:46:35,346 --> 00:46:37,501
2 courses in 2 different styles.

1345
00:46:38,472 --> 00:46:39,131
And then

1346
00:46:40,380 --> 00:46:41,891
that was where we landed. That we did.

1347
00:46:42,844 --> 00:46:44,753
It is, and and we ended up going

1348
00:46:44,753 --> 00:46:46,501
down that path of the the He in

1349
00:46:46,501 --> 00:46:48,265
the sand belt because it there were parts

1350
00:46:48,265 --> 00:46:49,855
of the property that reminded us of of

1351
00:46:49,935 --> 00:46:52,001
London and parts that reminded us at Melbourne.

1352
00:46:52,876 --> 00:46:53,273
And we...

1353
00:46:54,307 --> 00:46:56,394
We'd been into this... Been the he quite

1354
00:46:56,394 --> 00:46:57,835
a few times, but in the end, we

1355
00:46:57,835 --> 00:46:59,515
we jumped on a plane and went over

1356
00:46:59,515 --> 00:47:01,275
there for for a week or 2 took

1357
00:47:01,275 --> 00:47:02,255
some of our staff

1358
00:47:02,635 --> 00:47:02,795
and,

1359
00:47:04,009 --> 00:47:05,366
you know, fig if if we're gonna go

1360
00:47:05,366 --> 00:47:06,803
down the heat path, we're not just gonna

1361
00:47:06,803 --> 00:47:08,400
bail it and we wanna really try and

1362
00:47:08,400 --> 00:47:09,139
nail the

1363
00:47:09,916 --> 00:47:11,273
you know, a lot a lot of the

1364
00:47:11,273 --> 00:47:12,492
characteristics. So

1365
00:47:13,925 --> 00:47:16,405
yep. So we finished that course. That's now

1366
00:47:16,405 --> 00:47:18,565
grasped and kind of in play for some

1367
00:47:18,565 --> 00:47:20,164
of the members. So, it is in play

1368
00:47:20,164 --> 00:47:21,204
for some of the members. And

1369
00:47:22,256 --> 00:47:24,107
the Sand cell course is

1370
00:47:24,878 --> 00:47:26,014
9 holes are

1371
00:47:26,389 --> 00:47:28,693
pretty much playable and we've grasped the other

1372
00:47:28,693 --> 00:47:31,014
9 so that that data should be should

1373
00:47:31,014 --> 00:47:32,846
be implied by the sort of October, I

1374
00:47:32,846 --> 00:47:34,201
would say. So

1375
00:47:34,838 --> 00:47:36,750
yeah. And and the Sand, we didn't we

1376
00:47:36,750 --> 00:47:38,675
didn't really need to do the jump on

1377
00:47:38,675 --> 00:47:40,503
the plane thing. With, you know, we've we've

1378
00:47:40,503 --> 00:47:42,329
that 1 time. Yeah. We have Yeah.

1379
00:47:43,203 --> 00:47:45,268
But we... You know, the superintendent there was

1380
00:47:45,268 --> 00:47:46,698
very much on board, He actually came to

1381
00:47:46,778 --> 00:47:48,381
Melbourne, which was great. And

1382
00:47:49,809 --> 00:47:52,188
you know, the we knew the the width

1383
00:47:52,188 --> 00:47:53,561
and the sort of the he

1384
00:47:53,933 --> 00:47:55,520
plants and the sand that that that was

1385
00:47:55,520 --> 00:47:55,678
no...

1386
00:47:56,408 --> 00:47:57,922
Not an issue, but we were very keen

1387
00:47:57,922 --> 00:47:59,674
to get the get the bunker in the

1388
00:47:59,674 --> 00:47:59,993
greens,

1389
00:48:00,789 --> 00:48:03,976
you know, touching. And and, fortunately, he was

1390
00:48:03,976 --> 00:48:05,744
he was on board with it. So, Yeah.

1391
00:48:05,905 --> 00:48:07,264
It's a pretty cool feature. And to to

1392
00:48:07,264 --> 00:48:09,424
my knowledge, no, I can't think of the

1393
00:48:09,424 --> 00:48:11,424
course in America that's done that. So it's

1394
00:48:11,424 --> 00:48:12,944
totally unique to... That's really cool.

1395
00:48:13,664 --> 00:48:15,938
Anyway. Yeah. Know, it's so remarkable that

1396
00:48:16,877 --> 00:48:19,194
where, you know, we can Ikea. I I

1397
00:48:19,194 --> 00:48:20,793
won't speak for you. I can sort of

1398
00:48:20,793 --> 00:48:22,950
lament that, you know, golf is is just,

1399
00:48:23,110 --> 00:48:24,636
you know, you shoved toward the top of

1400
00:48:24,636 --> 00:48:26,699
this economic pyramid for people. You know, you

1401
00:48:26,699 --> 00:48:29,001
have to be pretty well to do to

1402
00:48:29,001 --> 00:48:30,826
to play these great courses that have been

1403
00:48:30,826 --> 00:48:32,670
built over the last 20 years. But on

1404
00:48:32,670 --> 00:48:34,670
the other side of that, what's remarkable in

1405
00:48:34,670 --> 00:48:36,369
a good way is that

1406
00:48:36,829 --> 00:48:38,829
there are these sites that have been out,

1407
00:48:38,989 --> 00:48:41,881
you know, been out there for... Ever since,

1408
00:48:41,961 --> 00:48:43,956
you know, since the earth was formed or

1409
00:48:43,956 --> 00:48:46,668
or the continents came together. And they're They're

1410
00:48:46,668 --> 00:48:48,000
so good for golf. I mean, you could

1411
00:48:48,119 --> 00:48:50,030
I remember an architect here in Geo and

1412
00:48:50,110 --> 00:48:50,986
Mike Young told me,

1413
00:48:52,101 --> 00:48:54,331
10 or 15 years ago. He said there's...

1414
00:48:54,490 --> 00:48:56,163
And it's on the fall line. He said

1415
00:48:56,163 --> 00:48:56,402
there's this...

1416
00:48:57,213 --> 00:48:59,918
Ridge of sand where, you know, the the...

1417
00:49:00,713 --> 00:49:02,145
I forget what... What the... The, you know,

1418
00:49:02,224 --> 00:49:03,759
basically, the App appalachian plateau

1419
00:49:04,308 --> 00:49:06,219
taper off where it used to be ocean,

1420
00:49:06,458 --> 00:49:08,130
and then you start getting sand, and it

1421
00:49:08,130 --> 00:49:10,860
goes from around Columbus where your club is

1422
00:49:10,997 --> 00:49:12,431
all the way down, you know, through Hoop

1423
00:49:12,431 --> 00:49:13,802
mad club all the way down to the

1424
00:49:14,041 --> 00:49:16,457
Atlantic Ocean. And there there would be

1425
00:49:17,314 --> 00:49:19,868
countless properties if you could get them and

1426
00:49:19,868 --> 00:49:21,519
wanted to develop them that would have these

1427
00:49:22,280 --> 00:49:24,599
ideal golf characteristics to them, sand,

1428
00:49:25,480 --> 00:49:26,679
vegetation pines, you know,

1429
00:49:27,320 --> 00:49:29,375
openness whatever. I mean, the soils are just

1430
00:49:29,732 --> 00:49:31,954
and and they've always been there, but it's

1431
00:49:31,954 --> 00:49:33,963
only recently that would, you know, anybody's

1432
00:49:34,335 --> 00:49:36,026
found the economic model to

1433
00:49:36,558 --> 00:49:38,280
make them pay off as as

1434
00:49:38,876 --> 00:49:39,433
destination clubs.

1435
00:49:40,626 --> 00:49:42,615
Yeah. That's right ryan. And, you know, and

1436
00:49:42,615 --> 00:49:44,524
prior to sand hills, probably everyone just looked

1437
00:49:44,524 --> 00:49:45,262
at this

1438
00:49:45,813 --> 00:49:47,647
no 1 probably thought that you could have

1439
00:49:47,647 --> 00:49:49,721
a remote course that and and make the

1440
00:49:49,721 --> 00:49:51,337
business model work, but

1441
00:49:53,070 --> 00:49:53,947
you know, I guess,

1442
00:49:55,237 --> 00:49:57,778
30 years later. There's there's, you know, there's

1443
00:49:57,778 --> 00:50:00,161
probably 40 or 50 of these destination courses

1444
00:50:00,161 --> 00:50:02,704
that... Yeah. Yeah. It'll be interesting to see

1445
00:50:02,704 --> 00:50:05,194
if if when we hit the saturation point,

1446
00:50:05,434 --> 00:50:07,934
you know? How many... Yeah. How many of

1447
00:50:08,074 --> 00:50:09,295
more potential members

1448
00:50:09,594 --> 00:50:10,929
want to join another

1449
00:50:11,288 --> 00:50:13,278
club that they can play 3 time 4

1450
00:50:13,278 --> 00:50:13,916
times a year.

1451
00:50:14,871 --> 00:50:16,646
It I mean, 1 of the interesting

1452
00:50:17,738 --> 00:50:19,570
it's intrigued me the the model of summit...

1453
00:50:19,744 --> 00:50:22,056
These courses now has changed to those, so

1454
00:50:22,056 --> 00:50:23,592
which I think appeals to

1455
00:50:24,208 --> 00:50:26,121
some of these members who are who are

1456
00:50:26,121 --> 00:50:27,238
at multiple clubs.

1457
00:50:28,769 --> 00:50:32,469
You know, musk the garage paying monthly dues

1458
00:50:32,690 --> 00:50:33,969
for a course that they never go and

1459
00:50:33,969 --> 00:50:34,289
visit,

1460
00:50:34,929 --> 00:50:35,429
whereas

1461
00:50:35,984 --> 00:50:37,121
seems a lot of these

1462
00:50:37,497 --> 00:50:39,489
destination courses like it who be, you know,

1463
00:50:39,728 --> 00:50:41,719
doing this sort of this initial buy in,

1464
00:50:43,313 --> 00:50:45,955
which you can then on sell. Or or

1465
00:50:45,955 --> 00:50:47,387
get rid of. So you essentially get your

1466
00:50:47,387 --> 00:50:48,103
money back. Yep.

1467
00:50:49,138 --> 00:50:51,684
But then... And usually, it's market driven so

1468
00:50:51,684 --> 00:50:53,593
you could potentially make money on on the

1469
00:50:53,593 --> 00:50:54,093
deal

1470
00:50:54,882 --> 00:50:56,474
but then it's just to pay for play

1471
00:50:56,474 --> 00:50:58,225
kind of deal. I think that's really interesting.

1472
00:50:58,862 --> 00:51:00,773
That's an interesting model. To to in Australia

1473
00:51:00,773 --> 00:51:01,807
in anyway. Sure,

1474
00:51:02,699 --> 00:51:04,215
where it's a a daily rate,

1475
00:51:04,853 --> 00:51:06,369
You know? So at least if you use

1476
00:51:06,369 --> 00:51:07,965
the course once or if you use it

1477
00:51:07,965 --> 00:51:08,524
10 times,

1478
00:51:09,083 --> 00:51:10,061
you know, it's

1479
00:51:10,534 --> 00:51:12,387
it's probably a a fair

1480
00:51:13,559 --> 00:51:14,913
you would feel a little better about it

1481
00:51:14,913 --> 00:51:16,744
than just writing a check for 20000 dollars

1482
00:51:16,744 --> 00:51:18,177
every year and and never were saying Sure.

1483
00:51:18,749 --> 00:51:19,946
That's that's a good point. Yeah. I mean,

1484
00:51:20,186 --> 00:51:22,421
we are still... I guess you'd consider these

1485
00:51:22,421 --> 00:51:24,496
the the early days of this model. I

1486
00:51:24,496 --> 00:51:25,374
mean, it's been done, but,

1487
00:51:26,172 --> 00:51:28,497
yeah. I think. That's obviously, that might be

1488
00:51:28,497 --> 00:51:29,054
the way to go.

1489
00:51:29,849 --> 00:51:30,009
Let's...

1490
00:51:31,997 --> 00:51:33,746
I wanna get into Medina, but but first,

1491
00:51:33,985 --> 00:51:35,576
I wanna... This is a topic that I've

1492
00:51:35,576 --> 00:51:37,506
been thinking quite in writing a little bit

1493
00:51:37,506 --> 00:51:40,061
about lately and my views on it are

1494
00:51:40,061 --> 00:51:42,615
evolving. But in your from your perspective and

1495
00:51:42,615 --> 00:51:44,611
in your mind, what what is the importance

1496
00:51:44,611 --> 00:51:45,111
of

1497
00:51:45,822 --> 00:51:47,495
beauty in a golf course or aesthetics.

1498
00:51:48,451 --> 00:51:50,204
You know, if you sometimes if you lean

1499
00:51:50,204 --> 00:51:51,797
too heavy into that or put too much

1500
00:51:51,797 --> 00:51:54,427
value in it, you know, you you're you

1501
00:51:54,427 --> 00:51:54,880
get

1502
00:51:55,318 --> 00:51:57,233
criticized for only liking courses that are, like,

1503
00:51:57,392 --> 00:51:59,864
eye candy or just pretty... That dent... And

1504
00:51:59,864 --> 00:52:01,300
the... You know, the sub text is, well,

1505
00:52:01,460 --> 00:52:03,773
maybe those courses don't have any substance underneath

1506
00:52:03,773 --> 00:52:04,864
the beauty. But

1507
00:52:05,858 --> 00:52:07,790
I I think I was... I think that

1508
00:52:07,847 --> 00:52:08,801
aesthetics is critical.

1509
00:52:09,675 --> 00:52:11,981
Yeah. You have to be stimulated. I, obviously,

1510
00:52:12,141 --> 00:52:13,969
you want the the strategies and everything to

1511
00:52:13,969 --> 00:52:15,900
be there too. But for as an architect

1512
00:52:15,900 --> 00:52:18,140
who's building your own golf courses now and

1513
00:52:18,140 --> 00:52:18,780
enhancing others,

1514
00:52:19,820 --> 00:52:21,340
like, where do you... Where does your need

1515
00:52:21,340 --> 00:52:23,500
fall on the concept of of beauty and

1516
00:52:23,500 --> 00:52:23,820
aesthetics?

1517
00:52:25,108 --> 00:52:27,094
Yeah. I I think it's it's in imperative.

1518
00:52:27,889 --> 00:52:29,081
And I don't see why,

1519
00:52:30,114 --> 00:52:30,909
of course, you want.

1520
00:52:31,719 --> 00:52:33,954
You wanna nail the routing, you want to,

1521
00:52:35,311 --> 00:52:37,227
make the holes as interesting as possible? You

1522
00:52:37,227 --> 00:52:38,984
want them to be strategic. But why wouldn't

1523
00:52:38,984 --> 00:52:40,660
you want them also so to look attractive?

1524
00:52:41,630 --> 00:52:43,378
Right same time. Like it does it...

1525
00:52:44,252 --> 00:52:46,159
I I don't understand why you... Why you

1526
00:52:46,159 --> 00:52:47,851
wouldn't wanna... So so incorporating

1527
00:52:48,479 --> 00:52:50,418
different types of grass, different textures

1528
00:52:51,036 --> 00:52:52,554
I think Mackenzie had a good line, You

1529
00:52:52,554 --> 00:52:54,312
know, who... Why would you wanna hit over

1530
00:52:54,312 --> 00:52:55,351
an ugly looking bunker.

1531
00:52:57,284 --> 00:52:58,885
Of, of course, you try it. So things

1532
00:52:58,885 --> 00:52:59,385
like

1533
00:53:00,085 --> 00:53:01,704
we spend a lot of time on

1534
00:53:02,244 --> 00:53:04,824
everything from mowing lines to

1535
00:53:05,219 --> 00:53:07,284
the balance of, you know, if you if

1536
00:53:07,284 --> 00:53:08,158
you're building bunker,

1537
00:53:09,746 --> 00:53:11,812
you know, just just how they look aesthetically,

1538
00:53:11,971 --> 00:53:14,298
how they fit the land, how they balance

1539
00:53:14,910 --> 00:53:18,264
the you you're not necessarily compromising their location,

1540
00:53:18,502 --> 00:53:20,353
but you're just trying to

1541
00:53:21,523 --> 00:53:23,431
make the holes look as attractive as possible.

1542
00:53:23,670 --> 00:53:24,170
So

1543
00:53:24,559 --> 00:53:25,518
hiding car paths,

1544
00:53:27,036 --> 00:53:29,752
being clever about how you fill out tree

1545
00:53:29,752 --> 00:53:31,724
lines and having them look at in a

1546
00:53:31,844 --> 00:53:34,303
in an irregular natural fashion rather than just

1547
00:53:34,303 --> 00:53:36,206
a a gun barrel straight line and it

1548
00:53:36,206 --> 00:53:37,476
looks like a pond plantation,

1549
00:53:38,998 --> 00:53:41,228
you know, all those all those elements. I

1550
00:53:41,228 --> 00:53:41,967
think a critical

1551
00:53:43,139 --> 00:53:44,891
to to building a golf course, whether it's

1552
00:53:44,891 --> 00:53:46,983
a renovation or a new course. So,

1553
00:53:47,374 --> 00:53:49,447
Yeah, I would say, And I think you

1554
00:53:49,447 --> 00:53:51,361
could confuse people into thinking of course, good

1555
00:53:51,361 --> 00:53:53,514
just by making it look attractive, but of

1556
00:53:53,514 --> 00:53:55,667
course, you wanna nail the strategy as well.

1557
00:53:56,559 --> 00:53:58,000
But, yeah, It's it's it's it's way at

1558
00:53:58,000 --> 00:53:58,960
the top of the list for us.

1559
00:53:59,920 --> 00:54:02,000
We just did an interesting exercise earlier this

1560
00:54:02,000 --> 00:54:03,119
year where we had our,

1561
00:54:03,840 --> 00:54:05,920
golf digest course ranking panel lists.

1562
00:54:06,811 --> 00:54:09,119
We we surveyed them. We gave them, like,

1563
00:54:09,994 --> 00:54:12,061
un amount of holes, and we asked them

1564
00:54:12,061 --> 00:54:14,304
to grade the holes and different categories. That...

1565
00:54:14,543 --> 00:54:15,577
We're were trying to come up with...

1566
00:54:15,974 --> 00:54:18,202
America's hundred greatest holes. You know? Yep. It's

1567
00:54:18,202 --> 00:54:19,497
a it's a

1568
00:54:20,110 --> 00:54:21,878
impossible task, but it's a fun 1. We

1569
00:54:21,878 --> 00:54:22,913
thought it would be fun to do and

1570
00:54:22,913 --> 00:54:24,585
see see how it shook out. And so

1571
00:54:24,585 --> 00:54:26,178
they they did a great job. Got tons

1572
00:54:26,178 --> 00:54:27,213
of feedback. They rated,

1573
00:54:28,169 --> 00:54:29,147
they scored each

1574
00:54:29,698 --> 00:54:31,530
cole of the candidate holes on a scale

1575
00:54:31,530 --> 00:54:34,000
of 1 to 10 and from, like, basically,

1576
00:54:34,319 --> 00:54:36,470
aesthetics was 1 of the categories. Originality was

1577
00:54:36,470 --> 00:54:39,042
1 and and challenge was 1. And

1578
00:54:39,749 --> 00:54:43,080
the criticism that I saw online and and

1579
00:54:43,080 --> 00:54:45,141
in social media stuff. I... Just a lot

1580
00:54:45,141 --> 00:54:46,807
of your your typical, you know,

1581
00:54:47,460 --> 00:54:49,079
haters who who are just gonna

1582
00:54:49,460 --> 00:54:51,300
slag on anything that Golf digest does or

1583
00:54:51,300 --> 00:54:53,380
any rankings and in for that. They're just

1584
00:54:53,380 --> 00:54:54,579
like, oh, this is just a list of,

1585
00:54:54,739 --> 00:54:56,340
like, the hundred prettiest holes.

1586
00:54:57,953 --> 00:54:58,453
And

1587
00:54:58,832 --> 00:55:00,350
well, we asked them to to grade on

1588
00:55:00,350 --> 00:55:03,226
that, but 3 other categories too. But I

1589
00:55:03,226 --> 00:55:05,079
guess my... I wonder like, is... Is it

1590
00:55:05,079 --> 00:55:07,239
a coincidence that that the greatest holds are

1591
00:55:07,239 --> 00:55:09,239
also the best looking? You know, you could...

1592
00:55:09,639 --> 00:55:12,039
On any given particular hole you could try

1593
00:55:12,039 --> 00:55:13,559
to have an argument about it It's it's...

1594
00:55:13,974 --> 00:55:16,207
Playa ability, it's strategic merits, you know, like,

1595
00:55:16,367 --> 00:55:18,520
is there value and in how you play

1596
00:55:18,520 --> 00:55:19,578
it. But

1597
00:55:20,036 --> 00:55:22,189
beauty is so is is important. I mean,

1598
00:55:22,269 --> 00:55:23,567
there's isn't... That's what

1599
00:55:24,197 --> 00:55:26,030
that's part of being great? Is it not?

1600
00:55:27,304 --> 00:55:29,455
Yeah. And I think as architects, you would

1601
00:55:29,455 --> 00:55:31,367
like to think we've got the ability to

1602
00:55:31,367 --> 00:55:32,982
look through visuals. But

1603
00:55:33,294 --> 00:55:34,733
Most people vote with their eyes.

1604
00:55:35,612 --> 00:55:37,290
I mean, I I had a years ago,

1605
00:55:37,450 --> 00:55:39,288
I took a group of superintendents from Australia

1606
00:55:39,288 --> 00:55:41,445
to the Uk on like, a study tour.

1607
00:55:43,219 --> 00:55:43,719
And,

1608
00:55:44,019 --> 00:55:45,940
you know, we we went to Turn brie,

1609
00:55:46,099 --> 00:55:48,019
and they thought it was unbelievable, you know.

1610
00:55:49,140 --> 00:55:50,820
And then we went to Ka and they're

1611
00:55:50,820 --> 00:55:52,991
were like, yeah. Yeah. You know. Yeah. My

1612
00:55:52,991 --> 00:55:54,025
leaf favorite golf course.

1613
00:55:54,900 --> 00:55:56,252
And, you know, it's got nothing to do

1614
00:55:56,252 --> 00:55:58,639
with the the way the holes played strategy.

1615
00:55:59,275 --> 00:56:02,074
It wasn't about how, you know, stimulating. It

1616
00:56:02,074 --> 00:56:03,029
was mentally.

1617
00:56:03,666 --> 00:56:05,018
It was an overcast day.

1618
00:56:05,575 --> 00:56:09,076
It's not as dramatic as landscape is somewhere

1619
00:56:09,076 --> 00:56:09,712
like Tan.

1620
00:56:10,364 --> 00:56:13,880
And they didn't necessarily understand the intricacies of

1621
00:56:13,880 --> 00:56:16,517
the whole design and and the strategy. So...

1622
00:56:16,996 --> 00:56:18,435
And and nor to most people.

1623
00:56:19,643 --> 00:56:20,859
You know, the number of

1624
00:56:21,472 --> 00:56:23,141
committee you kind of assume when you talk

1625
00:56:23,141 --> 00:56:24,889
to committees and you talk to members you

1626
00:56:24,889 --> 00:56:26,717
you almost assume that they don't know what

1627
00:56:26,717 --> 00:56:27,274
strategy is.

1628
00:56:28,322 --> 00:56:28,797
You have to.

1629
00:56:29,590 --> 00:56:31,755
And then the number of times when

1630
00:56:32,604 --> 00:56:34,983
you talk about strategy and just in really

1631
00:56:34,983 --> 00:56:37,061
simple terms, you maybe take a hold that

1632
00:56:37,061 --> 00:56:39,125
they might know and talk about, you know,

1633
00:56:39,523 --> 00:56:41,984
why the greens angled in this particular direction

1634
00:56:41,984 --> 00:56:43,652
and, you know, it's all, you know,

1635
00:56:44,302 --> 00:56:46,050
reward for playing close to the bunker or

1636
00:56:46,050 --> 00:56:47,559
or you talk about the 13 it'll go

1637
00:56:47,559 --> 00:56:49,465
faster. And it's always fun when you see

1638
00:56:49,465 --> 00:56:50,737
kind of a light bulb moment and you

1639
00:56:50,737 --> 00:56:52,460
say it go off. And then totally, the

1640
00:56:52,579 --> 00:56:54,337
and they're like, I never I never I'd

1641
00:56:54,337 --> 00:56:55,455
never thought about that. Yeah.

1642
00:56:56,254 --> 00:56:57,873
I have no idea... So,

1643
00:56:58,811 --> 00:56:59,210
you know,

1644
00:57:00,663 --> 00:57:03,300
Asking the average members to sort... And not

1645
00:57:03,300 --> 00:57:05,536
the the panel are average members, but,

1646
00:57:06,909 --> 00:57:08,574
Yeah They... They're they're, of course, just gonna

1647
00:57:08,574 --> 00:57:10,081
vote with their eyes. They just, you know,

1648
00:57:10,320 --> 00:57:11,747
whatever looks good it's gonna be a great

1649
00:57:11,747 --> 00:57:13,096
hole. So... Yeah.

1650
00:57:13,810 --> 00:57:15,744
Yeah you just you just mentioned it, you

1651
00:57:15,744 --> 00:57:17,744
know, talking about members and membership.

1652
00:57:18,704 --> 00:57:19,844
I would love to know

1653
00:57:20,704 --> 00:57:23,436
how the the process of you working with

1654
00:57:23,516 --> 00:57:24,555
Med medina wind.

1655
00:57:26,073 --> 00:57:27,931
You know, I asked you earlier about

1656
00:57:28,803 --> 00:57:30,872
where were there types of courses that you'd

1657
00:57:30,872 --> 00:57:32,567
like to play as a competitor

1658
00:57:33,260 --> 00:57:33,760
and

1659
00:57:34,136 --> 00:57:36,285
about the, you know, how how professionals look

1660
00:57:36,285 --> 00:57:37,717
at the game and how they hit shots

1661
00:57:37,717 --> 00:57:39,250
and how they think. Know, Med medina is

1662
00:57:39,250 --> 00:57:41,570
always 1 of the great tournament courses in

1663
00:57:41,570 --> 00:57:42,289
the United States.

1664
00:57:43,170 --> 00:57:45,984
You know, Pj Championships Us opens. You and

1665
00:57:45,984 --> 00:57:48,142
it had a very distinct style. It was

1666
00:57:48,142 --> 00:57:50,560
it was hit the ball straight or or

1667
00:57:50,699 --> 00:57:53,017
or die. You know? It's there were a

1668
00:57:53,017 --> 00:57:54,615
lot of places to to shoot a high

1669
00:57:54,615 --> 00:57:54,935
score there,

1670
00:57:55,909 --> 00:57:58,786
so you've taken this golf course that had

1671
00:57:58,786 --> 00:58:00,304
this rich tournament tradition,

1672
00:58:01,582 --> 00:58:03,580
and it was probably a little past. It's

1673
00:58:03,580 --> 00:58:05,530
it's... It's sell by date

1674
00:58:05,987 --> 00:58:08,219
architectural and just kinda where where taste are

1675
00:58:08,219 --> 00:58:11,407
now. But really transformed and into something completely

1676
00:58:11,407 --> 00:58:12,179
different, including

1677
00:58:12,695 --> 00:58:15,892
rearranging holes and and creating new holes. So

1678
00:58:16,185 --> 00:58:18,961
I would take us inside these discussions, how

1679
00:58:18,961 --> 00:58:20,016
did how did Oc

1680
00:58:20,564 --> 00:58:22,081
get the job in the first place, What

1681
00:58:22,081 --> 00:58:24,396
was your pitch to the club, and what

1682
00:58:24,396 --> 00:58:27,189
was the club looking to do to their

1683
00:58:27,189 --> 00:58:28,945
golf... Their famous number 3 golf course.

1684
00:58:29,596 --> 00:58:31,103
A lot of questions there, but there's a

1685
00:58:31,103 --> 00:58:32,609
lot to there's a lot to talk about.

1686
00:58:33,005 --> 00:58:34,512
No, no. That's right. If I forget 1

1687
00:58:34,512 --> 00:58:35,012
just

1688
00:58:35,542 --> 00:58:35,859
remind me.

1689
00:58:37,144 --> 00:58:38,824
Yes. So it was interesting how the job

1690
00:58:38,824 --> 00:58:39,625
came about. So,

1691
00:58:41,785 --> 00:58:43,704
we were working on Shady oaks. So it

1692
00:58:43,704 --> 00:58:44,905
was just very Covid.

1693
00:58:45,639 --> 00:58:47,331
And I was there... It was March

1694
00:58:47,945 --> 00:58:48,660
20 20.

1695
00:58:49,773 --> 00:58:51,466
I wanna say. And

1696
00:58:52,238 --> 00:58:54,782
got an email from Steve Cook, the superintendent

1697
00:58:54,782 --> 00:58:57,261
there, to see whether they would be interested

1698
00:58:57,261 --> 00:58:59,089
in having a look and being on the

1699
00:58:59,089 --> 00:58:59,407
shore list.

1700
00:59:00,202 --> 00:59:01,711
So, of course, that was, you know,

1701
00:59:02,347 --> 00:59:03,880
an amazing email to get

1702
00:59:04,429 --> 00:59:05,628
And at the time, it was like oh,

1703
00:59:05,788 --> 00:59:07,545
this is great. Well, I'm coming back in

1704
00:59:07,865 --> 00:59:09,623
April, and the other guys will be there

1705
00:59:09,623 --> 00:59:11,380
then too. So we'll just slip up. Have

1706
00:59:11,380 --> 00:59:13,307
a look. Meet meet the club and then,

1707
00:59:13,467 --> 00:59:15,057
like, 2 days later, I've got an email

1708
00:59:15,057 --> 00:59:17,126
from the government, you have to come home

1709
00:59:17,126 --> 00:59:18,956
or you may never come home, you know,

1710
00:59:19,609 --> 00:59:21,207
and that was the beginning of it. So

1711
00:59:21,207 --> 00:59:23,705
we fortunately, were finished at shady oaks, so

1712
00:59:23,765 --> 00:59:25,703
it didn't compromise that job, but

1713
00:59:26,162 --> 00:59:28,181
it kind of went from a relation to

1714
00:59:28,654 --> 00:59:31,204
you know, just disappointment thinking, you know, this

1715
00:59:31,204 --> 00:59:32,239
is gonna pass us by.

1716
00:59:32,957 --> 00:59:34,789
But the club were very very, very good,

1717
00:59:36,238 --> 00:59:37,908
and we were able to do sort of

1718
00:59:37,987 --> 00:59:39,021
Zoom interviews.

1719
00:59:40,134 --> 00:59:41,486
We were able to even though we didn't

1720
00:59:41,486 --> 00:59:42,304
know the course

1721
00:59:43,076 --> 00:59:43,474
intimately.

1722
00:59:44,443 --> 00:59:46,830
We were able to put together a, I

1723
00:59:46,830 --> 00:59:47,569
guess, a,

1724
00:59:48,740 --> 00:59:49,934
a vision, we'll,

1725
00:59:50,491 --> 00:59:52,651
for the sort of or as we thought

1726
00:59:53,127 --> 00:59:54,817
Madonna should be. And

1727
00:59:55,348 --> 00:59:56,300
they've got an amazing,

1728
00:59:58,124 --> 01:00:00,917
some amazing historical records or it's some incredible

1729
01:00:00,917 --> 01:00:03,959
old plans, a lot of aerials, top graphic

1730
01:00:04,254 --> 01:00:04,572
details,

1731
01:00:05,445 --> 01:00:07,925
some photos from on side. And so we

1732
01:00:07,925 --> 01:00:09,997
were able to really... We spent a lot

1733
01:00:09,997 --> 01:00:11,749
of time going through all of that. And

1734
01:00:11,749 --> 01:00:13,263
and what we found was that there were

1735
01:00:13,263 --> 01:00:14,480
certainly elements of

1736
01:00:15,095 --> 01:00:15,892
potential restoration.

1737
01:00:17,182 --> 01:00:19,256
No. It's not like Course 3 as a

1738
01:00:19,256 --> 01:00:21,170
as a total restoration, but there were elements

1739
01:00:21,170 --> 01:00:21,410
of it.

1740
01:00:22,765 --> 01:00:24,440
And there were some things that we definitely

1741
01:00:24,440 --> 01:00:26,409
wanted to change. We we didn't think the

1742
01:00:27,326 --> 01:00:29,875
They used the water particularly well. There were

1743
01:00:29,875 --> 01:00:31,809
there were 3 part threes across the water

1744
01:00:32,265 --> 01:00:33,221
3 famous. Yeah.

1745
01:00:33,793 --> 01:00:34,532
Cross 1

1746
01:00:34,907 --> 01:00:37,532
everything. So like identical, and that were next

1747
01:00:37,532 --> 01:00:39,520
to each other. Yeah. They did in the

1748
01:00:39,520 --> 01:00:39,997
same direction.

1749
01:00:40,809 --> 01:00:42,969
So... I I remember being a a kid

1750
01:00:42,969 --> 01:00:45,130
and seeing those those holes in magazines, you

1751
01:00:45,130 --> 01:00:46,809
know, in in the in the eighties and

1752
01:00:46,809 --> 01:00:49,465
thinking oh, cool. That's awesome. But... You know,

1753
01:00:49,625 --> 01:00:51,545
yeah. They had they had gotten a little

1754
01:00:51,545 --> 01:00:54,664
repetitive and... Yeah. And so there was sort...

1755
01:00:55,065 --> 01:00:56,744
That that was something that intrigued this.

1756
01:00:57,320 --> 01:00:59,000
They didn't really have a world class sort

1757
01:00:59,000 --> 01:01:00,599
of short path 4 that that had a

1758
01:01:00,599 --> 01:01:02,440
hole that they built but didn't quite

1759
01:01:03,000 --> 01:01:03,639
live up towards.

1760
01:01:05,094 --> 01:01:06,689
You know, the original idea, I guess,

1761
01:01:08,045 --> 01:01:09,321
and that that was the fifteenth.

1762
01:01:10,039 --> 01:01:11,873
And then there were lots of, like, little

1763
01:01:11,873 --> 01:01:14,686
things like just the narrow fairway ways the

1764
01:01:14,919 --> 01:01:15,954
the shrunk and greens,

1765
01:01:16,911 --> 01:01:18,902
a lot of rough between bunker and greens

1766
01:01:18,902 --> 01:01:20,734
or edge of Fairway and bunker. They're things

1767
01:01:20,734 --> 01:01:22,588
that we kinda take for granted that

1768
01:01:24,174 --> 01:01:25,773
you know, and and so the course had

1769
01:01:25,773 --> 01:01:28,170
become incredibly difficult for that average golfer.

1770
01:01:28,969 --> 01:01:31,606
There, like, on a... It's it's 350

1771
01:01:31,606 --> 01:01:32,485
acres is that property.

1772
01:01:33,059 --> 01:01:34,889
And there were 23 acres of fairway.

1773
01:01:36,002 --> 01:01:36,240
Oh,

1774
01:01:36,956 --> 01:01:38,865
to put that into the... Not just nothing.

1775
01:01:39,025 --> 01:01:39,422
You.

1776
01:01:40,394 --> 01:01:40,954
Mammoth Jones,

1777
01:01:41,434 --> 01:01:43,434
1 of the fairway at mammoth Jones is

1778
01:01:43,434 --> 01:01:46,875
that size. Yep. Wow, tomorrow of Medina. Even

1779
01:01:46,875 --> 01:01:47,809
1 hour. Yeah

1780
01:01:49,050 --> 01:01:51,150
So that doesn't sound like like of of

1781
01:01:51,210 --> 01:01:53,210
fun course to play day to day and

1782
01:01:53,210 --> 01:01:53,710
the

1783
01:01:54,170 --> 01:01:56,090
hitting 5 irons off the tl all day.

1784
01:01:56,582 --> 01:01:59,048
Yeah. And then Justin Thomas, you know, shot

1785
01:01:59,048 --> 01:02:01,197
25 under or 2400. So yeah sort of

1786
01:02:01,197 --> 01:02:02,708
it might have had the relay. It had

1787
01:02:02,708 --> 01:02:04,470
everything back. It was back to front. You

1788
01:02:04,470 --> 01:02:05,739
know, it was very, very hard for the

1789
01:02:05,739 --> 01:02:08,674
average golfer and still not that difficult for

1790
01:02:08,674 --> 01:02:09,705
for the elite players.

1791
01:02:11,704 --> 01:02:12,744
You know, there... There's was a couple of

1792
01:02:12,744 --> 01:02:15,304
holes, heavily dog holes with trees on the

1793
01:02:15,304 --> 01:02:17,224
corner, but the... Those guys would just hit

1794
01:02:17,224 --> 01:02:19,144
it over trees. Mh. And hit a wash

1795
01:02:19,144 --> 01:02:19,304
in.

1796
01:02:19,958 --> 01:02:21,969
Meanwhile, the average golfer couldn't reach the corner

1797
01:02:22,106 --> 01:02:24,174
and just had this impossible second shot behind

1798
01:02:24,174 --> 01:02:25,526
a a wall of tree. So there were

1799
01:02:25,526 --> 01:02:27,373
a lot of... There in... Number of things

1800
01:02:27,373 --> 01:02:28,648
that we could talk about.

1801
01:02:29,765 --> 01:02:31,599
And then sort of ag, the greens were

1802
01:02:31,599 --> 01:02:33,753
there used by day. They had a lot

1803
01:02:33,753 --> 01:02:33,912
of...

1804
01:02:34,710 --> 01:02:35,587
They were too small.

1805
01:02:36,385 --> 01:02:38,717
Number drainage system was great on the course.

1806
01:02:38,877 --> 01:02:40,874
There was there was basically no main drainage

1807
01:02:40,874 --> 01:02:43,351
system. So every time it rained, the course

1808
01:02:43,351 --> 01:02:43,991
became water.

1809
01:02:45,445 --> 01:02:47,304
So a lot of those sort of the

1810
01:02:47,364 --> 01:02:47,864
infrastructure

1811
01:02:48,565 --> 01:02:51,285
needed upgrading new irrigation. And and so you're

1812
01:02:51,285 --> 01:02:53,204
irrespective of whether you were gonna redesign the

1813
01:02:53,204 --> 01:02:54,577
golf, of course, you still to spend a

1814
01:02:54,577 --> 01:02:56,172
lot of money on it to to improve

1815
01:02:56,172 --> 01:02:56,252
it.

1816
01:02:58,723 --> 01:03:01,115
And so then through that process, we were

1817
01:03:01,115 --> 01:03:02,764
awarded the job at

1818
01:03:04,236 --> 01:03:05,986
and then we still weren't able to leave

1819
01:03:05,986 --> 01:03:08,690
the country, and that kind of was lingering.

1820
01:03:09,009 --> 01:03:09,509
And

1821
01:03:10,219 --> 01:03:12,059
the club, again, we're we're very good very

1822
01:03:12,059 --> 01:03:13,119
supportive. And so

1823
01:03:13,500 --> 01:03:15,179
because we couldn't get there, we thought why

1824
01:03:15,179 --> 01:03:16,000
don't we do

1825
01:03:16,860 --> 01:03:19,934
each month we'll present 6 holes. And

1826
01:03:20,713 --> 01:03:22,550
knowing that we still might make some changes

1827
01:03:22,550 --> 01:03:25,426
to those 6 at a time when we

1828
01:03:25,426 --> 01:03:27,834
eventually get there. We can at least give

1829
01:03:27,834 --> 01:03:30,145
the the the board or sorry, the the

1830
01:03:30,225 --> 01:03:32,297
Ad hoc committee, the design committee. We can

1831
01:03:32,297 --> 01:03:33,731
give them an insight into what we're thinking.

1832
01:03:34,700 --> 01:03:36,445
So they agreed that was a a good

1833
01:03:36,445 --> 01:03:36,603
idea.

1834
01:03:37,396 --> 01:03:37,872
So we...

1835
01:03:38,744 --> 01:03:40,172
Over the course of a few months, we

1836
01:03:40,172 --> 01:03:41,520
put together the first 6 holes.

1837
01:03:42,568 --> 01:03:44,800
And presented those. And they they liked them.

1838
01:03:45,119 --> 01:03:45,619
But

1839
01:03:46,555 --> 01:03:48,787
since finding, they they weren't blown away just

1840
01:03:48,787 --> 01:03:51,041
because the the first 6 weren't

1841
01:03:51,353 --> 01:03:53,414
massive changes. It where we weren't re routing

1842
01:03:53,414 --> 01:03:55,000
holes. There were some... There were a couple

1843
01:03:55,000 --> 01:03:56,506
of holes. We were sort of restoring some

1844
01:03:56,506 --> 01:03:57,219
of the bunker,

1845
01:03:59,139 --> 01:04:00,893
better use of short grass, but but the

1846
01:04:00,893 --> 01:04:02,328
holes kinda played where they were. So they

1847
01:04:02,328 --> 01:04:03,365
were very happy, but

1848
01:04:03,923 --> 01:04:07,055
not blown away. And then the the second

1849
01:04:07,113 --> 01:04:07,613
6

1850
01:04:08,244 --> 01:04:09,438
was a bit more of a change.

1851
01:04:10,393 --> 01:04:11,826
And right at the end of the presentation,

1852
01:04:11,985 --> 01:04:13,735
we'd we'd been sort of working on this

1853
01:04:13,735 --> 01:04:15,088
idea of re routing the last 6.

1854
01:04:16,139 --> 01:04:17,755
And with the aim of

1855
01:04:19,010 --> 01:04:21,105
and sorry to go off on a

1856
01:04:21,483 --> 01:04:22,041
tangent here.

1857
01:04:22,838 --> 01:04:24,833
But it all started with the seventeenth hole,

1858
01:04:24,912 --> 01:04:26,838
that the path 3 across the water. Yeah.

1859
01:04:27,791 --> 01:04:29,381
When you stood on the tea, we kind

1860
01:04:29,381 --> 01:04:30,437
of looked right

1861
01:04:30,891 --> 01:04:31,709
and saw

1862
01:04:32,401 --> 01:04:35,356
this amazing diagonal carryover over water, press across

1863
01:04:35,356 --> 01:04:36,867
to the fourteenth t, what was then the

1864
01:04:36,867 --> 01:04:38,697
fourteenth t. And it was like, oh, that

1865
01:04:38,697 --> 01:04:41,003
looks like an unbelievable short part 4. Like

1866
01:04:41,003 --> 01:04:42,752
a cape, reverse cape. Mh.

1867
01:04:43,801 --> 01:04:46,823
And we started looking at ways of of

1868
01:04:46,823 --> 01:04:48,595
of bringing the water into play

1869
01:04:49,288 --> 01:04:51,594
so that... Because at the moment, only bad

1870
01:04:51,594 --> 01:04:53,159
plays heated in the water good place maybe

1871
01:04:53,199 --> 01:04:54,626
in the water. So we wanted to bring

1872
01:04:54,626 --> 01:04:56,370
the water into play for for better plays.

1873
01:04:57,084 --> 01:04:59,145
We wanted to eliminate 1 of the... Either

1874
01:04:59,145 --> 01:05:01,541
the thirteenth for the seventeenth in so that

1875
01:05:01,541 --> 01:05:02,734
there wasn't the the same.

1876
01:05:04,961 --> 01:05:07,268
And so in the background, we're were working

1877
01:05:07,268 --> 01:05:09,192
on this this... Sort of the this reroute

1878
01:05:09,192 --> 01:05:10,385
over the last 6. And at the end

1879
01:05:10,385 --> 01:05:12,454
of the presentation where we said, well, there

1880
01:05:12,454 --> 01:05:14,204
is something we'd like to just flag with

1881
01:05:14,204 --> 01:05:15,890
you because we thought there is no way

1882
01:05:15,890 --> 01:05:17,480
of that that there's every chance they're not

1883
01:05:17,480 --> 01:05:19,070
gonna wanna do this because the last 6

1884
01:05:19,070 --> 01:05:20,740
are kind of the famous... The most famous

1885
01:05:20,740 --> 01:05:22,409
6 holes at Med medina.

1886
01:05:23,920 --> 01:05:24,318
But we...

1887
01:05:25,128 --> 01:05:26,244
Showed it up on the screen,

1888
01:05:27,199 --> 01:05:28,713
stepped him through it, and you could tell

1889
01:05:28,713 --> 01:05:31,101
that really, really excited. And then they actually

1890
01:05:31,101 --> 01:05:32,774
left the the meeting room and went out

1891
01:05:32,774 --> 01:05:35,337
on course and walked that 6 holes and

1892
01:05:35,337 --> 01:05:36,610
could kind of see what we were trying

1893
01:05:36,610 --> 01:05:37,247
to do. Mh.

1894
01:05:38,043 --> 01:05:39,794
And came back and said, yeah, we're all

1895
01:05:39,794 --> 01:05:42,038
in. Go go ahead and and spend a

1896
01:05:42,038 --> 01:05:43,550
bit more time on that. So so we

1897
01:05:43,550 --> 01:05:44,903
ended up doing all 18.

1898
01:05:45,619 --> 01:05:46,278
So you...

1899
01:05:46,654 --> 01:05:47,472
Your original

1900
01:05:47,927 --> 01:05:50,554
presentation did not have some of those radical

1901
01:05:50,554 --> 01:05:50,872
changes.

1902
01:05:52,319 --> 01:05:55,262
No. No. It was more philosophical. We... We

1903
01:05:55,262 --> 01:05:56,932
took a few holes. We we certainly,

1904
01:05:58,205 --> 01:06:00,050
went into detail on a on a few

1905
01:06:00,050 --> 01:06:02,118
holes, but not that last 6. That only

1906
01:06:02,118 --> 01:06:03,868
came as we... Once we're awarded the job.

1907
01:06:04,425 --> 01:06:05,953
Okay. And and to be honest,

1908
01:06:06,672 --> 01:06:08,507
it probably helps that we didn't know the

1909
01:06:08,507 --> 01:06:10,742
course that well because I think if you

1910
01:06:10,742 --> 01:06:12,898
knew it well, you'd probably less us likely

1911
01:06:12,898 --> 01:06:15,623
to come up with... To something's as radical

1912
01:06:15,623 --> 01:06:17,136
as that? So we were working more on

1913
01:06:17,136 --> 01:06:18,671
the the top demographic plan

1914
01:06:19,047 --> 01:06:19,547
and

1915
01:06:20,799 --> 01:06:22,653
sort of aerials rather than

1916
01:06:23,123 --> 01:06:25,670
you know, we... Because it it the holes

1917
01:06:25,670 --> 01:06:27,284
that word didn't perhaps

1918
01:06:28,455 --> 01:06:30,420
have the same meaning to us good because

1919
01:06:30,698 --> 01:06:31,892
didn't know course as well. Because that makes

1920
01:06:31,892 --> 01:06:33,984
sense. Yeah. That is interesting. So

1921
01:06:35,236 --> 01:06:36,851
this is 1 of those cases where

1922
01:06:38,993 --> 01:06:40,290
the club doesn't realize

1923
01:06:40,666 --> 01:06:41,166
how

1924
01:06:42,260 --> 01:06:44,751
maybe they... I maybe they don't realize how

1925
01:06:45,526 --> 01:06:48,076
badly they wanted things to get really shaken

1926
01:06:48,076 --> 01:06:49,605
up. Mean, I'm sure they... When they hired

1927
01:06:49,605 --> 01:06:51,780
you, they they knew you were going to

1928
01:06:52,237 --> 01:06:54,868
give new greens and bunker widen retrieve removal,

1929
01:06:55,027 --> 01:06:57,181
widen things out, you know, change the textures.

1930
01:06:57,500 --> 01:06:58,335
I But

1931
01:06:58,875 --> 01:06:59,355
deep down,

1932
01:06:59,994 --> 01:07:01,994
they knew that the course needed a lot

1933
01:07:01,994 --> 01:07:03,594
more work than just that if it was

1934
01:07:03,594 --> 01:07:05,849
going to to be the best or the

1935
01:07:05,849 --> 01:07:07,130
the most that it could be. Is that

1936
01:07:07,130 --> 01:07:08,969
the sense that you you kinda get sometimes

1937
01:07:08,969 --> 01:07:10,989
clubs, don't know that they want

1938
01:07:11,369 --> 01:07:12,909
a big change like that

1939
01:07:13,939 --> 01:07:16,347
Yeah. I I think they recognized that

1940
01:07:16,880 --> 01:07:19,743
whilst the club was extremely famous, and the

1941
01:07:19,743 --> 01:07:20,618
course was famous.

1942
01:07:21,428 --> 01:07:23,418
More so because of the tournaments that are

1943
01:07:23,418 --> 01:07:23,974
a hosted.

1944
01:07:24,452 --> 01:07:26,442
I think that the I think the people

1945
01:07:26,442 --> 01:07:29,307
that knew that they recognized that that perhaps...

1946
01:07:29,545 --> 01:07:30,523
That there was

1947
01:07:31,791 --> 01:07:34,184
significant improvements that could be made. And so

1948
01:07:34,344 --> 01:07:35,859
I think that were quite excited by the

1949
01:07:35,859 --> 01:07:37,693
fact that it that we came up with

1950
01:07:37,693 --> 01:07:38,672
a fairly bold

1951
01:07:39,130 --> 01:07:39,608
bulb plan.

1952
01:07:41,217 --> 01:07:43,205
That is interesting to to hear you say

1953
01:07:43,205 --> 01:07:45,512
that that the fact that, you know, you

1954
01:07:45,512 --> 01:07:48,391
you weren't as familiar with the the club

1955
01:07:48,391 --> 01:07:49,130
and the holes

1956
01:07:49,743 --> 01:07:52,130
as maybe, you know, obviously, the membership is

1957
01:07:52,130 --> 01:07:54,141
that that liberated you into

1958
01:07:55,168 --> 01:07:56,840
not feeling that they were sacred in any

1959
01:07:56,840 --> 01:07:59,230
way. That you could. You could throw something

1960
01:07:59,230 --> 01:08:01,244
out there that was a little bit

1961
01:08:01,700 --> 01:08:02,417
off the deep end.

1962
01:08:03,373 --> 01:08:03,612
Yeah.

1963
01:08:04,264 --> 01:08:05,695
Why and it actually tender.

1964
01:08:06,730 --> 01:08:08,719
It was nice because we were still able

1965
01:08:08,719 --> 01:08:09,219
to

1966
01:08:10,548 --> 01:08:12,398
do a little bit. A restoration. So, like,

1967
01:08:12,558 --> 01:08:14,796
the the new eighteenth hole actually plays up

1968
01:08:14,796 --> 01:08:16,793
the original eighteenth hole corridor. Mh.

1969
01:08:17,593 --> 01:08:18,712
So there was sort of some little in

1970
01:08:18,712 --> 01:08:20,845
the and the new fourteenth hole plate for

1971
01:08:20,885 --> 01:08:22,638
from where the the the t where the

1972
01:08:22,638 --> 01:08:25,030
4 used to play, you know, 50 years

1973
01:08:25,030 --> 01:08:26,544
ago or 60 years ago. So they were

1974
01:08:26,544 --> 01:08:28,298
kind of still even though I'm a radical

1975
01:08:28,298 --> 01:08:30,881
change from we were sort of able to

1976
01:08:30,937 --> 01:08:31,437
incorporate

1977
01:08:32,128 --> 01:08:33,002
some of the original,

1978
01:08:33,797 --> 01:08:34,114
layer.

1979
01:08:35,306 --> 01:08:35,545
So,

1980
01:08:36,514 --> 01:08:37,947
I think that resonated with people.

1981
01:08:38,744 --> 01:08:40,121
They could see that it was,

1982
01:08:41,134 --> 01:08:42,648
you know, it was a major change, but

1983
01:08:42,648 --> 01:08:44,798
it was still it was still Modern medina,

1984
01:08:45,037 --> 01:08:47,544
you know. You said that they had nice

1985
01:08:48,079 --> 01:08:50,630
archives and and photographs of the... The course.

1986
01:08:50,868 --> 01:08:52,063
I think it was built in the late

1987
01:08:52,063 --> 01:08:54,055
twenties right? In 28, maybe it opened.

1988
01:08:56,301 --> 01:08:57,895
What did it look like in those old

1989
01:08:57,895 --> 01:08:59,671
photographs, You know, it's just it's hard to

1990
01:08:59,728 --> 01:09:02,198
envision. When you see the now photographs and

1991
01:09:02,359 --> 01:09:03,808
I hope to get there soon, but when

1992
01:09:03,808 --> 01:09:05,879
you see photographs of of the holes now

1993
01:09:05,879 --> 01:09:08,747
after after you've remodeled them. I mean, it

1994
01:09:08,747 --> 01:09:10,738
it looks it looks cool. It doesn't look

1995
01:09:10,738 --> 01:09:12,171
like Modern medina because Medina had,

1996
01:09:13,224 --> 01:09:15,221
matured into into something else, But I'm sure

1997
01:09:15,221 --> 01:09:16,740
that if you look at these photographs that

1998
01:09:16,740 --> 01:09:18,418
they had from the the first decade of

1999
01:09:18,418 --> 01:09:20,037
its life, you would probably

2000
01:09:20,656 --> 01:09:22,035
see similarities to

2001
01:09:22,509 --> 01:09:24,256
what's been rebuilt there now?

2002
01:09:25,608 --> 01:09:27,300
Yeah. I mean, so Tom Bend

2003
01:09:27,992 --> 01:09:30,137
under originally, and it started out as 9

2004
01:09:30,137 --> 01:09:32,462
holes, and they got expect... Ended to 18.

2005
01:09:33,579 --> 01:09:35,255
Think of... It started out as the ladies

2006
01:09:35,255 --> 01:09:37,510
course, a 9 hole ladies course, and then

2007
01:09:37,649 --> 01:09:40,213
expanded it to 18 and You know, some

2008
01:09:40,213 --> 01:09:41,803
of the things we saw on the old

2009
01:09:41,803 --> 01:09:42,280
aerials,

2010
01:09:43,314 --> 01:09:45,778
wider fairway, a lot more fairway back towards

2011
01:09:45,778 --> 01:09:46,653
the tea. Right.

2012
01:09:47,543 --> 01:09:49,219
So the the fairway would have been 30

2013
01:09:49,219 --> 01:09:51,295
or 40 percent bigger than what they had

2014
01:09:51,295 --> 01:09:51,453
become.

2015
01:09:53,529 --> 01:09:54,566
Interestingly, there was some...

2016
01:09:55,537 --> 01:09:57,841
There was some amazingly shaped bunker, and we

2017
01:09:57,841 --> 01:09:58,158
could never...

2018
01:09:59,429 --> 01:10:01,335
Our knowledge of Tom Bend. We hadn't haven't

2019
01:10:01,335 --> 01:10:04,885
seen band courses that had these really organic

2020
01:10:05,083 --> 01:10:06,595
what they looked like sort of something that

2021
01:10:06,754 --> 01:10:07,629
Till has would build.

2022
01:10:09,300 --> 01:10:11,710
Really interesting shaped bunker. And so

2023
01:10:12,260 --> 01:10:13,699
you know, there were 2 things that we

2024
01:10:13,699 --> 01:10:15,699
were can to restore. So the idea of

2025
01:10:15,699 --> 01:10:18,340
having wider fairway ways more fell back towards

2026
01:10:18,340 --> 01:10:18,820
the tea.

2027
01:10:19,394 --> 01:10:22,121
And more sort of organically interesting shaped

2028
01:10:22,735 --> 01:10:23,235
bunker

2029
01:10:24,007 --> 01:10:25,837
was something that they used to have.

2030
01:10:26,648 --> 01:10:28,396
So it was kind of easy to to

2031
01:10:28,396 --> 01:10:30,327
suggest those, be rein incorporated.

2032
01:10:30,860 --> 01:10:31,735
There were less trees.

2033
01:10:32,371 --> 01:10:33,881
It was still a tree line golf course,

2034
01:10:34,041 --> 01:10:35,252
but a lot of the a lot of

2035
01:10:35,252 --> 01:10:36,609
the trees were removed on the corners of

2036
01:10:36,609 --> 01:10:37,806
the dog leg were,

2037
01:10:39,484 --> 01:10:41,559
were planted in the, I wanna say the

2038
01:10:41,559 --> 01:10:42,837
the forties fifties and sixties.

2039
01:10:43,970 --> 01:10:44,470
So

2040
01:10:45,170 --> 01:10:46,850
we kind of opened the course up and

2041
01:10:46,850 --> 01:10:48,130
got rid of a lot of the exotic

2042
01:10:48,130 --> 01:10:49,890
and took it back to to really just

2043
01:10:49,890 --> 01:10:51,329
the the stand of oak trees that you

2044
01:10:51,329 --> 01:10:52,149
see. So

2045
01:10:53,504 --> 01:10:55,018
that the top end of the course is

2046
01:10:55,018 --> 01:10:56,691
more of like an Oaks Savannah, which is

2047
01:10:56,691 --> 01:10:58,762
what it was originally. So it was oaks

2048
01:10:58,762 --> 01:11:00,537
on the tops of the hills and then

2049
01:11:00,769 --> 01:11:02,524
sort of prairie grasses if you're like or

2050
01:11:02,524 --> 01:11:04,119
we've we've used F,

2051
01:11:04,597 --> 01:11:06,671
but it it has kind of recaptured the

2052
01:11:06,671 --> 01:11:08,506
look of what that land would have been

2053
01:11:08,506 --> 01:11:10,180
like prior to the golf course being there.

2054
01:11:11,149 --> 01:11:12,734
Because at that time, when the club was

2055
01:11:12,734 --> 01:11:13,368
founded, it was...

2056
01:11:14,240 --> 01:11:15,746
I mean, it's still... It's it's outside of

2057
01:11:15,984 --> 01:11:17,411
Chicago, but I I would imagine that would

2058
01:11:17,411 --> 01:11:18,774
have been... The country.

2059
01:11:19,885 --> 01:11:22,185
I've... Yeah. I mean, the holes... You know,

2060
01:11:22,343 --> 01:11:23,953
where where we've added the fence

2061
01:11:24,722 --> 01:11:26,801
down the boundary of of sort of 5,

2062
01:11:26,959 --> 01:11:27,593
6 and 7.

2063
01:11:28,546 --> 01:11:30,291
You know, there were no roads and no

2064
01:11:30,291 --> 01:11:32,456
houses around those holes. So,

2065
01:11:32,908 --> 01:11:34,827
you know, 1 of the reasons for we

2066
01:11:34,827 --> 01:11:36,256
suggested put bringing back a,

2067
01:11:37,128 --> 01:11:38,659
an out of bounds fence essentially

2068
01:11:39,113 --> 01:11:41,016
was that that was the way those holes

2069
01:11:41,016 --> 01:11:41,493
were originally.

2070
01:11:42,128 --> 01:11:43,493
There there was a fence that there and

2071
01:11:43,493 --> 01:11:44,850
it was very close to the grain. It

2072
01:11:44,850 --> 01:11:46,765
was actually was part of the design of

2073
01:11:46,765 --> 01:11:47,744
the hole. But,

2074
01:11:48,442 --> 01:11:50,277
you know, 80 years later, you couldn't do

2075
01:11:50,277 --> 01:11:52,286
that because there were... You know, just roads

2076
01:11:52,286 --> 01:11:54,358
of houses and and cars and roads all

2077
01:11:54,358 --> 01:11:56,588
around it. So... Yeah. Yeah. It's funny that

2078
01:11:56,588 --> 01:11:57,885
that the a course that,

2079
01:11:58,993 --> 01:12:00,345
and there were probably other examples, but, of

2080
01:12:00,345 --> 01:12:02,653
course that that began life as, you know,

2081
01:12:02,811 --> 01:12:04,641
out in the countryside, and, I don't know

2082
01:12:04,641 --> 01:12:06,709
if it was farmland around it or or

2083
01:12:06,709 --> 01:12:07,479
what, but

2084
01:12:07,920 --> 01:12:08,720
became sort of like,

2085
01:12:09,520 --> 01:12:11,699
the... 1 of the most iconic Parkland

2086
01:12:12,079 --> 01:12:13,840
courses, you know, you would think it was

2087
01:12:13,840 --> 01:12:15,600
in the middle of us of a densely

2088
01:12:15,600 --> 01:12:18,333
populated city that had you know, 80 years

2089
01:12:18,333 --> 01:12:21,210
of mature trees growing on it. But that

2090
01:12:21,210 --> 01:12:23,707
was all that was all added later and

2091
01:12:24,166 --> 01:12:26,252
it just the the the course had become

2092
01:12:26,252 --> 01:12:27,468
something different than

2093
01:12:28,240 --> 01:12:29,614
has many courses do

2094
01:12:30,307 --> 01:12:31,580
since it since Ben,

2095
01:12:32,454 --> 01:12:32,852
designed it.

2096
01:12:33,648 --> 01:12:33,806
Yeah.

2097
01:12:35,173 --> 01:12:37,793
By the way, like, is there another architect

2098
01:12:37,793 --> 01:12:41,128
that was as prolific as Ben, yet, we

2099
01:12:41,128 --> 01:12:43,769
know kinda so little about what... He was

2100
01:12:43,769 --> 01:12:44,889
doo Hanger Building. I don't...

2101
01:12:45,609 --> 01:12:48,010
I never heard anybody. I've never heard of

2102
01:12:48,010 --> 01:12:49,149
of a Tom Bend

2103
01:12:49,609 --> 01:12:52,104
expert. I'm sure there are people who. No.

2104
01:12:52,743 --> 01:12:54,341
No. I just... See you everything I read

2105
01:12:54,341 --> 01:12:55,859
though, you know, it talks about him being

2106
01:12:55,859 --> 01:12:57,238
the Johnny Apple state of

2107
01:12:57,697 --> 01:12:59,775
course. Yeah. 18 stakes on a Sunday...

2108
01:13:00,667 --> 01:13:02,980
Yeah. Yeah. And I think he started building

2109
01:13:02,980 --> 01:13:04,814
courses in the early 19 hundreds and yet

2110
01:13:04,814 --> 01:13:05,713
there he is still

2111
01:13:06,170 --> 01:13:08,482
almost 30 years later and working in Chicago.

2112
01:13:08,641 --> 01:13:10,011
So I mean, it's... It's a hell of

2113
01:13:10,011 --> 01:13:12,320
a long career. But, you know, he didn't

2114
01:13:12,320 --> 01:13:13,775
to my knowledge he didn't leave

2115
01:13:14,230 --> 01:13:16,698
sketches or blueprints or much behind.

2116
01:13:17,494 --> 01:13:18,937
It's No. If... I mean there's a couple

2117
01:13:18,937 --> 01:13:20,285
of sort of... Yeah. There's some of the

2118
01:13:20,285 --> 01:13:22,426
plans that buy Bend albert, but, but there

2119
01:13:22,426 --> 01:13:23,140
there's nothing else.

2120
01:13:24,964 --> 01:13:25,464
So

2121
01:13:25,773 --> 01:13:27,600
So, you know, Med medina, I'm sure still

2122
01:13:27,600 --> 01:13:29,904
has in... Every intention they're hosting a president's

2123
01:13:29,904 --> 01:13:32,390
cup... Every intention of continuing to be

2124
01:13:33,162 --> 01:13:36,202
a stall art. Tournament course for great players.

2125
01:13:37,397 --> 01:13:38,990
I'm sure that that's gotta be in the

2126
01:13:38,990 --> 01:13:41,062
in the Dna of of the club mentality.

2127
01:13:42,337 --> 01:13:44,032
Are you curious to see how

2128
01:13:44,820 --> 01:13:46,195
elite players will handle

2129
01:13:46,728 --> 01:13:47,205
your stuff.

2130
01:13:48,159 --> 01:13:50,385
Oh, yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. I understand. Jeff Jeff

2131
01:13:50,385 --> 01:13:52,213
was very knowledgeable about that and and and

2132
01:13:52,213 --> 01:13:54,932
with your background too, but, you know, until

2133
01:13:54,932 --> 01:13:56,761
until you see it in action, that's gotta

2134
01:13:56,761 --> 01:13:58,194
be... You know, you gotta be kind of

2135
01:13:58,194 --> 01:14:00,421
kinda curious as to see how it fares.

2136
01:14:01,474 --> 01:14:02,994
Yeah. And look, that was and that was

2137
01:14:02,994 --> 01:14:04,135
certainly part of the

2138
01:14:04,755 --> 01:14:06,454
brief, you know, that

2139
01:14:07,074 --> 01:14:07,574
they

2140
01:14:09,167 --> 01:14:11,894
still plan on hosting major events, and

2141
01:14:12,428 --> 01:14:14,281
it needs to be a relevant test for

2142
01:14:14,337 --> 01:14:15,744
for the best golfers in the world. So

2143
01:14:16,503 --> 01:14:18,818
yeah. No. We're definitely interested to see to

2144
01:14:18,818 --> 01:14:19,456
see that. I mean,

2145
01:14:21,052 --> 01:14:23,127
you can never... The weather is the is

2146
01:14:23,127 --> 01:14:25,298
the unknown factor there. You know, if if

2147
01:14:25,298 --> 01:14:26,577
if you had a a big store,

2148
01:14:27,536 --> 01:14:29,134
it's important the course is sort of firm

2149
01:14:29,134 --> 01:14:31,292
and fast, particularly the green approaches and the

2150
01:14:31,292 --> 01:14:33,383
greens. And so now they've actually got, you

2151
01:14:33,383 --> 01:14:35,554
know, the infrastructure in place to

2152
01:14:36,406 --> 01:14:38,872
to produce sort of consistently firmer services. But,

2153
01:14:38,952 --> 01:14:40,247
of course, if you had a,

2154
01:14:40,559 --> 01:14:42,313
2 inch storm the night before the first

2155
01:14:42,313 --> 01:14:42,632
round.

2156
01:14:43,270 --> 01:14:45,103
There's only so much you can do. Exactly.

2157
01:14:45,342 --> 01:14:45,502
Yeah.

2158
01:14:46,618 --> 01:14:48,452
And that's the... That that is always the

2159
01:14:48,452 --> 01:14:51,324
challenge, but Certainly, the greens, the pitch of

2160
01:14:51,324 --> 01:14:53,226
the greens, the contouring of the greens, the

2161
01:14:53,226 --> 01:14:54,890
amount of shore grass around the greens.

2162
01:14:56,968 --> 01:14:58,801
You know, if if it's if it's fiery,

2163
01:14:59,198 --> 01:15:01,510
it'll be a sn test. So absolutely. I

2164
01:15:01,510 --> 01:15:04,138
mean, it's the same length, it's it's probably

2165
01:15:04,138 --> 01:15:04,935
a past 70.

2166
01:15:06,384 --> 01:15:08,769
In the under tournament condition, 70 or 71.

2167
01:15:09,087 --> 01:15:11,257
So it's pretty strong. That's it's it's about

2168
01:15:11,631 --> 01:15:14,358
7600 yards, 7 7 06:50

2169
01:15:14,590 --> 01:15:15,947
and power 70 or 71.

2170
01:15:17,625 --> 01:15:19,143
But I think it's more that it's it's

2171
01:15:19,143 --> 01:15:20,101
the shots of the green,

2172
01:15:20,901 --> 01:15:23,632
that'll be very different from what they've experienced

2173
01:15:23,632 --> 01:15:25,550
in the past, You know, with with balls,

2174
01:15:25,949 --> 01:15:27,467
you know, anything offline and we'll tend to

2175
01:15:27,467 --> 01:15:30,516
get rejected rather than just plop and and

2176
01:15:30,516 --> 01:15:32,823
stop or finishing the primary rough next to

2177
01:15:32,823 --> 01:15:34,574
the grain where it's a relatively easy chip.

2178
01:15:34,893 --> 01:15:36,723
Yeah. Is that where you land?

2179
01:15:37,931 --> 01:15:39,704
Basically when you're considering

2180
01:15:40,318 --> 01:15:42,069
how a of course will handle elite play

2181
01:15:42,069 --> 01:15:45,091
is is firm is the main defense, and

2182
01:15:45,091 --> 01:15:47,336
you can't control wind, but, you know, wind

2183
01:15:47,336 --> 01:15:48,851
and wind and hard surfaces.

2184
01:15:49,967 --> 01:15:52,280
It really is because you can you can

2185
01:15:52,280 --> 01:15:52,519
do.

2186
01:15:53,795 --> 01:15:55,092
You know, it doesn't matter

2187
01:15:55,724 --> 01:15:58,613
can talk about angles and pitch of greens

2188
01:15:58,670 --> 01:15:59,704
and, you know,

2189
01:16:00,501 --> 01:16:02,093
the way you bunker the hole, but at

2190
01:16:02,093 --> 01:16:03,606
the end of the day, if the conditions

2191
01:16:03,606 --> 01:16:05,373
are soft. Off. Those guys are so good

2192
01:16:05,373 --> 01:16:07,523
that it doesn't matter if they're out of

2193
01:16:07,523 --> 01:16:08,956
position. If they've got an ado iron into

2194
01:16:08,956 --> 01:16:11,026
the green, they're they're gonna hold the. They're

2195
01:16:11,026 --> 01:16:11,743
gonna hold the grain.

2196
01:16:12,380 --> 01:16:14,380
Off But that's why... I think that's why

2197
01:16:14,380 --> 01:16:16,126
the sand belt still is so relevant. I

2198
01:16:16,126 --> 01:16:16,284
mean,

2199
01:16:17,396 --> 01:16:19,461
tiger Kingston heath in 20,

2200
01:16:20,588 --> 01:16:23,136
19? I think, 20 18, 20 19. Yeah.

2201
01:16:23,296 --> 01:16:24,569
I mean, the winning score there was about

2202
01:16:24,569 --> 01:16:26,322
4 day under. It wasn't, you know, it

2203
01:16:26,322 --> 01:16:27,835
wasn't particularly windy that week.

2204
01:16:29,043 --> 01:16:31,104
Grains firm, and that was the k. Say

2205
01:16:31,104 --> 01:16:31,342
you've re...

2206
01:16:32,373 --> 01:16:34,514
It's it's all about firm. So... Yeah.

2207
01:16:35,386 --> 01:16:37,628
Well, the the members are beginning just now

2208
01:16:37,628 --> 01:16:39,067
to play the course. Have have you gotten

2209
01:16:39,067 --> 01:16:40,265
any initial feedback or...

2210
01:16:41,064 --> 01:16:42,422
Yeah. I was there at the opening.

2211
01:16:43,062 --> 01:16:44,660
So look we get on Saturday.

2212
01:16:45,234 --> 01:16:46,989
So it was terrific. It was a great

2213
01:16:46,989 --> 01:16:47,149
day.

2214
01:16:48,505 --> 01:16:49,621
Course looks fantastic.

2215
01:16:50,260 --> 01:16:50,658
I played,

2216
01:16:52,173 --> 01:16:53,449
which was fun too. So it was 1

2217
01:16:53,449 --> 01:16:54,885
of my rounds. How much 12?

2218
01:16:55,938 --> 01:16:57,373
Anna a cat at Getty as well there.

2219
01:16:57,613 --> 01:16:58,331
You go? Yeah.

2220
01:16:59,687 --> 01:17:01,304
Is it she to play your own courses

2221
01:17:01,363 --> 01:17:02,001
for the first time?

2222
01:17:02,734 --> 01:17:05,930
Yeah. Yep. Yep. It is. But you usually

2223
01:17:05,930 --> 01:17:07,049
spend so much time out there.

2224
01:17:08,087 --> 01:17:09,845
It's rare that you're sort of surprised or

2225
01:17:09,845 --> 01:17:11,536
shot. Because if you... If you if you're

2226
01:17:11,536 --> 01:17:12,733
doing a job, and you'd... And you know,

2227
01:17:12,893 --> 01:17:14,328
your numbers and you know, how far everything

2228
01:17:14,328 --> 01:17:15,845
is. It's not like you get to a

2229
01:17:15,845 --> 01:17:17,362
certain hole and go. Oh, that's, you know,

2230
01:17:18,414 --> 01:17:20,412
that going a lot further than I imagined.

2231
01:17:20,572 --> 01:17:21,531
Or... Yeah.

2232
01:17:22,570 --> 01:17:24,488
But now it was it was nice playing

2233
01:17:24,488 --> 01:17:26,167
with the play with 3 members that were

2234
01:17:26,167 --> 01:17:29,289
sort of mid handicap. Like, 14 15 16.

2235
01:17:29,687 --> 01:17:31,990
The nice thing was that they they didn't

2236
01:17:31,990 --> 01:17:34,056
get beaten up. You know, that they played

2237
01:17:34,056 --> 01:17:34,795
off the

2238
01:17:35,184 --> 01:17:36,935
the properties that they should be playing off.

2239
01:17:38,605 --> 01:17:40,118
But, you know, 1 of the criticisms of

2240
01:17:40,118 --> 01:17:41,390
the old course we had was that it

2241
01:17:41,390 --> 01:17:43,399
was just so hard. For the average golfer,

2242
01:17:43,479 --> 01:17:45,077
and they, you know, they got around. It

2243
01:17:45,077 --> 01:17:46,195
was nice to see, and though they're were

2244
01:17:46,195 --> 01:17:47,154
able to hit fairway ways.

2245
01:17:48,033 --> 01:17:49,951
You know, they still... It it was challenging,

2246
01:17:50,110 --> 01:17:52,035
but they weren't searching for lost balls in

2247
01:17:52,035 --> 01:17:52,908
the first q or...

2248
01:17:53,702 --> 01:17:54,996
So that was kind of as

2249
01:17:55,528 --> 01:17:58,385
that was as satisfying as anything, really It's

2250
01:17:58,385 --> 01:18:00,625
seeing... And and seeing there, seeing how much

2251
01:18:00,625 --> 01:18:01,341
they enjoy it.

2252
01:18:03,011 --> 01:18:04,364
I got I heard... I got a great

2253
01:18:04,364 --> 01:18:05,182
text from

2254
01:18:05,557 --> 01:18:07,330
the greens chairman from a

2255
01:18:08,914 --> 01:18:10,909
a member that didn't vote for it. And

2256
01:18:10,909 --> 01:18:12,266
he said, he said something like,

2257
01:18:13,543 --> 01:18:15,697
he said, I didn't read any... Any updates.

2258
01:18:15,778 --> 01:18:17,069
So I didn't go on any course to

2259
01:18:17,069 --> 01:18:18,903
tours. I didn't watch any of the the

2260
01:18:18,903 --> 01:18:20,576
videos. I just wanted to hate it.

2261
01:18:21,692 --> 01:18:22,192
And

2262
01:18:22,569 --> 01:18:24,322
and he said, I've just come off the

2263
01:18:24,322 --> 01:18:26,877
golf course tours it was unbelievable. It's like,

2264
01:18:27,907 --> 01:18:29,493
you don't care about and people it, you

2265
01:18:29,493 --> 01:18:29,889
know, with...

2266
01:18:31,553 --> 01:18:31,870
That's good.

2267
01:18:32,679 --> 01:18:34,671
Breaks they're at it. But... Yeah, The people

2268
01:18:34,671 --> 01:18:36,184
that didn't want it to happen. I actually

2269
01:18:36,184 --> 01:18:37,697
think it's really good that that's, you know.

2270
01:18:38,176 --> 01:18:39,131
Got. Yeah. I don't think you can do

2271
01:18:39,131 --> 01:18:41,442
better than that. That's... Yeah. That's the highest

2272
01:18:41,442 --> 01:18:42,673
praise. That's the.

2273
01:18:43,365 --> 01:18:45,195
So was good. Yeah. That's really good. It's

2274
01:18:45,195 --> 01:18:47,104
just now. It's just it's just time now

2275
01:18:47,104 --> 01:18:49,330
just getting a little firmer and quicker and

2276
01:18:49,330 --> 01:18:51,411
faster and There's like a new car. I

2277
01:18:51,411 --> 01:18:53,078
mean, this the serpent superintendent I wanna see

2278
01:18:53,078 --> 01:18:55,381
what it's capable of and Yep. I'm sure

2279
01:18:55,381 --> 01:18:56,572
it would get into fall.

2280
01:18:58,493 --> 01:18:59,919
And the grass just gets a bit more

2281
01:18:59,919 --> 01:19:02,059
mature. They'll he'll start seeing how fast they

2282
01:19:02,059 --> 01:19:03,168
can get get things.

2283
01:19:04,041 --> 01:19:06,117
We'll we'll wrap up your, Mike, but... 1

2284
01:19:06,117 --> 01:19:07,152
of the things that's attention interesting to me

2285
01:19:07,152 --> 01:19:09,403
is is, I... I'm really curious to see

2286
01:19:09,618 --> 01:19:10,993
how it's received by

2287
01:19:11,369 --> 01:19:13,756
people outside the club. You know, Med medina

2288
01:19:13,756 --> 01:19:14,712
was, in know our rankings.

2289
01:19:15,443 --> 01:19:17,911
Was I think it was once inside the

2290
01:19:17,911 --> 01:19:19,503
top 20 perhaps. So it was it was

2291
01:19:19,503 --> 01:19:19,902
a very...

2292
01:19:20,936 --> 01:19:22,927
Respected. You know, and it's just it's just

2293
01:19:22,927 --> 01:19:25,325
kind of been sliding, sliding backwards, and I

2294
01:19:25,325 --> 01:19:27,230
think it was in the nineties, still inside

2295
01:19:27,230 --> 01:19:29,000
the top 100, which is great. But

2296
01:19:29,770 --> 01:19:30,984
so it's... It'll be very

2297
01:19:31,375 --> 01:19:34,095
I'm curious to see once... How where it

2298
01:19:34,095 --> 01:19:35,695
pops up the next time we do our

2299
01:19:35,695 --> 01:19:36,494
hundred greatest rankings.

2300
01:19:37,055 --> 01:19:38,335
Yeah. Does this give it a shot in

2301
01:19:38,335 --> 01:19:39,935
the arm... I mean, it's a completely different

2302
01:19:39,935 --> 01:19:41,489
golf course. So it's gotta every

2303
01:19:41,945 --> 01:19:44,653
opportunity to to, you know, come in come

2304
01:19:44,653 --> 01:19:46,086
in high and hot or

2305
01:19:46,882 --> 01:19:48,952
so I'm curious to... I'm curious to see

2306
01:19:48,952 --> 01:19:50,404
that very much. Should be a great story

2307
01:19:50,404 --> 01:19:51,225
if Mode medina

2308
01:19:51,604 --> 01:19:53,524
re is res resurgence in our rankings.

2309
01:19:54,404 --> 01:19:56,564
Yeah. Absolutely. Just on that note, because we,

2310
01:19:57,045 --> 01:19:58,564
you know and I had been emailing recently

2311
01:19:58,564 --> 01:20:00,491
about... Some of the courses that you work

2312
01:20:00,491 --> 01:20:02,161
with that are in our world's 100 greatest.

2313
01:20:02,637 --> 01:20:05,182
We're... What's your viewpoint on hundred greatest courses

2314
01:20:05,182 --> 01:20:06,852
rankings and that that whole endeavor.

2315
01:20:07,581 --> 01:20:09,667
Do you... Does it do anything for you

2316
01:20:10,117 --> 01:20:12,812
personally or professionally? Does it matter to you?

2317
01:20:13,050 --> 01:20:14,476
Do you think it's it's Bs?

2318
01:20:15,369 --> 01:20:17,689
I'm just... I'm curious to to get it

2319
01:20:17,689 --> 01:20:18,489
outsider opinion.

2320
01:20:20,729 --> 01:20:21,930
No. III think it's...

2321
01:20:22,743 --> 01:20:23,616
I enjoy reading them.

2322
01:20:25,363 --> 01:20:26,792
I, you know, there's or you could...

2323
01:20:27,586 --> 01:20:29,491
You're never gonna create the perfect list. Of

2324
01:20:29,491 --> 01:20:31,476
course, there's always gonna be people gonna argue

2325
01:20:31,476 --> 01:20:33,644
over. You know, 1 should be higher than

2326
01:20:33,644 --> 01:20:36,036
now. I've never I've never seen consensus over

2327
01:20:36,036 --> 01:20:36,595
a rankings.

2328
01:20:37,712 --> 01:20:40,264
No. It's not Bs at all. III think

2329
01:20:40,423 --> 01:20:42,430
I I think they're I mean, how else

2330
01:20:42,430 --> 01:20:43,862
do you measure that they're never gonna be

2331
01:20:43,862 --> 01:20:45,849
perfect, but generally speaking, I think the rankings.

2332
01:20:46,009 --> 01:20:47,542
If you look at them as sort of

2333
01:20:47,917 --> 01:20:50,541
in broad categories, not not the... If you

2334
01:20:50,541 --> 01:20:51,630
look at sort of the top 10

2335
01:20:52,463 --> 01:20:53,837
if you look at the instead of

2336
01:20:54,289 --> 01:20:56,195
in groups of 10, Say. Yeah.

2337
01:20:56,910 --> 01:20:57,704
They're always right.

2338
01:20:58,975 --> 01:21:00,030
Invariably with that

2339
01:21:00,960 --> 01:21:02,809
and some magazines may not get it right.

2340
01:21:03,128 --> 01:21:04,724
I'm sure golf I just is right. But

2341
01:21:05,282 --> 01:21:06,877
but, yeah, It's it's the it's the it's

2342
01:21:06,877 --> 01:21:08,791
the... When you're trying to rank 1 versus

2343
01:21:08,791 --> 01:21:11,000
the other, particularly if they're on opposite sides

2344
01:21:11,198 --> 01:21:12,711
the globe. I mean, that gets really tricky.

2345
01:21:12,871 --> 01:21:14,940
But generally speaking, I think these days,

2346
01:21:15,975 --> 01:21:18,125
they're a pretty good measure. And and, yeah,

2347
01:21:18,523 --> 01:21:19,023
it's

2348
01:21:19,413 --> 01:21:20,368
an architect and,

2349
01:21:21,164 --> 01:21:23,552
for our clubs, I mean, you know, it's

2350
01:21:23,552 --> 01:21:23,712
a,

2351
01:21:24,587 --> 01:21:26,497
I'm sure Medina will be over the moon

2352
01:21:26,497 --> 01:21:28,407
if if we can sort of show it

2353
01:21:28,407 --> 01:21:30,255
on the uptick. And and, yeah, it comes

2354
01:21:30,255 --> 01:21:32,168
in it places is higher. So, yeah, It's

2355
01:21:32,168 --> 01:21:34,320
still a it's still very important. Yep. I

2356
01:21:34,320 --> 01:21:35,835
deal with a lot of clubs that that

2357
01:21:35,835 --> 01:21:37,524
profess that they don't care. They don't... You

2358
01:21:37,524 --> 01:21:39,036
know, they don't wanna play the game, but

2359
01:21:39,036 --> 01:21:40,945
then when they see their... Their... That number

2360
01:21:40,945 --> 01:21:42,377
keep getting higher next to their name.

2361
01:21:43,810 --> 01:21:46,197
Usually something happens if club members are, you

2362
01:21:46,197 --> 01:21:48,203
know, there... It's time to regroup and come

2363
01:21:48,203 --> 01:21:49,238
up with a new strategy.

2364
01:21:49,876 --> 01:21:51,469
I think most people care. I mean, who

2365
01:21:51,469 --> 01:21:52,903
doesn't wanna see their course.

2366
01:21:53,540 --> 01:21:55,708
Right. Kylie. Yeah. Nobody wants to be perceived

2367
01:21:55,708 --> 01:21:58,421
as as losing their their fast ball. No.

2368
01:21:58,739 --> 01:21:59,298
No. No.

2369
01:22:00,494 --> 01:22:02,488
Here's a question. III always close out with

2370
01:22:02,568 --> 01:22:03,365
I ask architects.

2371
01:22:04,177 --> 01:22:06,112
This question, what is the best

2372
01:22:06,646 --> 01:22:08,637
or your favorite modern golf course?

2373
01:22:09,990 --> 01:22:10,490
So.

2374
01:22:11,425 --> 01:22:11,903
Fry head?

2375
01:22:15,506 --> 01:22:17,579
Appalachian. Yeah. What's what what's... What do you

2376
01:22:17,579 --> 01:22:19,254
like about? Agrees? It's a great place. Where

2377
01:22:19,254 --> 01:22:19,971
do you like about it?

2378
01:22:26,033 --> 01:22:27,090
It's funny like

2379
01:22:28,417 --> 01:22:30,720
I remember Ashley and I in in the

2380
01:22:30,720 --> 01:22:32,253
old company we used to work for

2381
01:22:33,521 --> 01:22:34,717
you know, 20 years ago,

2382
01:22:36,392 --> 01:22:37,052
sort of

2383
01:22:38,864 --> 01:22:40,301
fry head was on the front cover of

2384
01:22:40,301 --> 01:22:41,816
a golf architecture magazine.

2385
01:22:42,787 --> 01:22:44,562
And back then, we were doing little

2386
01:22:44,939 --> 01:22:45,757
renovation projects

2387
01:22:46,293 --> 01:22:48,944
usually within 20 or 30 miles of

2388
01:22:49,734 --> 01:22:52,122
the office, you know? Dreaming of the day

2389
01:22:52,122 --> 01:22:52,622
where

2390
01:22:53,156 --> 01:22:55,622
we might get an opportunity to do. Something

2391
01:22:55,622 --> 01:22:59,146
called. Yeah. You know, major redesign or or

2392
01:22:59,146 --> 01:23:00,664
wow, you know, imagine we got to build

2393
01:23:00,664 --> 01:23:03,061
a new golf course or, you know, not

2394
01:23:03,061 --> 01:23:05,071
even thinking of the be on the other

2395
01:23:05,071 --> 01:23:06,662
side of the world, you know, building in

2396
01:23:06,822 --> 01:23:09,924
America. And and so... And I remember when

2397
01:23:09,924 --> 01:23:12,175
the fries head cover came out and

2398
01:23:13,345 --> 01:23:15,135
we'd I was fascinated by

2399
01:23:15,911 --> 01:23:16,969
seeing that photo,

2400
01:23:17,506 --> 01:23:19,680
you know, love Bill and ben's work

2401
01:23:20,296 --> 01:23:22,024
that I that I'd seen the the work

2402
01:23:22,224 --> 01:23:23,419
I'd seen. And then when we finally got

2403
01:23:23,419 --> 01:23:24,694
to get there. I was just... I think

2404
01:23:24,853 --> 01:23:26,310
I was just blown away by

2405
01:23:26,686 --> 01:23:27,961
by the the scale,

2406
01:23:28,359 --> 01:23:30,446
the the journey, that You know, the the

2407
01:23:30,446 --> 01:23:31,242
basically the routing.

2408
01:23:32,198 --> 01:23:34,212
And then and then the detail, I think

2409
01:23:34,429 --> 01:23:36,659
they just nailed the... You talk about aesthetics.

2410
01:23:36,819 --> 01:23:38,890
So I think, I, I'm to see a,

2411
01:23:39,144 --> 01:23:41,859
and ugly looking core or golf course. I

2412
01:23:41,859 --> 01:23:43,454
think they spend... They're very good at at

2413
01:23:43,454 --> 01:23:44,753
getting the balance right

2414
01:23:45,211 --> 01:23:47,526
between aesthetics and and strategy and interest,

2415
01:23:48,338 --> 01:23:50,322
So they've always been, you know, heroes of

2416
01:23:50,322 --> 01:23:50,560
ours.

2417
01:23:52,939 --> 01:23:54,765
And, yeah. So I guess, I don't know

2418
01:23:54,765 --> 01:23:55,954
getting to see that golf course.

2419
01:23:56,843 --> 01:23:58,909
We're we're special and I just thought that,

2420
01:23:58,989 --> 01:24:00,760
yeah, the quality of the grain complexes

2421
01:24:02,168 --> 01:24:04,075
and and the detail the the the little

2422
01:24:04,075 --> 01:24:05,926
bean towels I just thought they nailed. So

2423
01:24:05,926 --> 01:24:08,320
sort of be every aspect. III

2424
01:24:08,320 --> 01:24:10,714
was blown away with and, you know, that

2425
01:24:10,714 --> 01:24:12,172
was during an era of

2426
01:24:13,042 --> 01:24:14,475
you know, everyone was building more and more

2427
01:24:14,475 --> 01:24:16,783
en insulating greens and everyone was... It's almost

2428
01:24:16,783 --> 01:24:18,216
felt like everyone was trying to do each

2429
01:24:18,216 --> 01:24:19,728
other. You know, you know,

2430
01:24:20,460 --> 01:24:22,300
1 course had un grand, I'm gonna show

2431
01:24:22,300 --> 01:24:23,819
you. I'm gonna make them more un lady.

2432
01:24:23,979 --> 01:24:25,979
And I I've always liked Dylan and Ben

2433
01:24:25,979 --> 01:24:26,460
that they...

2434
01:24:27,754 --> 01:24:29,750
Well I guess, the more so. But

2435
01:24:30,469 --> 01:24:33,683
they're un greens, but there... There's always restraint

2436
01:24:34,780 --> 01:24:36,877
shown. You know, there there's enough flat areas

2437
01:24:37,429 --> 01:24:39,104
or some of the creases are small, you

2438
01:24:39,104 --> 01:24:40,618
know, you might get the odd bulb contour,

2439
01:24:40,698 --> 01:24:42,532
but is it... But they seem to nail

2440
01:24:42,532 --> 01:24:43,807
that balance very well,

2441
01:24:44,764 --> 01:24:46,613
and and and the green cop is at

2442
01:24:46,773 --> 01:24:49,566
Fry head were particularly good. So... So Whole

2443
01:24:49,566 --> 01:24:51,801
range of reasons, Really. But... Yeah, that's that's

2444
01:24:51,801 --> 01:24:53,077
probably my favorite modern design.

2445
01:24:53,954 --> 01:24:54,010
This

2446
01:24:56,769 --> 01:24:59,569
Talking to talking about routing golf courses reminded

2447
01:24:59,569 --> 01:25:01,250
me of an art exhibit I saw earlier

2448
01:25:01,250 --> 01:25:02,769
this year at the Whitney in New York.

2449
01:25:03,503 --> 01:25:05,725
It's centered around an artist to began experimenting

2450
01:25:05,725 --> 01:25:08,129
in the 19 sixties and seventies with using

2451
01:25:08,343 --> 01:25:10,327
artificial intelligence to create drawings and prints.

2452
01:25:11,456 --> 01:25:13,287
He made a mechanism that could interpret a

2453
01:25:13,287 --> 01:25:16,552
series of computerized instructions to draw rather lovely

2454
01:25:16,552 --> 01:25:18,862
images on paper using markers and other implements.

2455
01:25:19,912 --> 01:25:22,142
The arms movements were very deliberate and repetitive,

2456
01:25:22,381 --> 01:25:24,054
and the painting might take hours to make.

2457
01:25:24,452 --> 01:25:26,045
But on 1 wall, there were a series

2458
01:25:26,045 --> 01:25:27,957
of early versions of the sketches the arm

2459
01:25:27,957 --> 01:25:30,363
making. Which were just kind of squiggly concentric

2460
01:25:30,363 --> 01:25:30,681
lines.

2461
01:25:31,239 --> 01:25:33,390
They had a resemblance to top graphical maps

2462
01:25:33,390 --> 01:25:34,904
and occurred to me then that we're out

2463
01:25:34,904 --> 01:25:35,622
of place now,

2464
01:25:36,195 --> 01:25:37,555
where we could feed a map of a

2465
01:25:37,555 --> 01:25:40,195
real property into a computer, and Ai would

2466
01:25:40,195 --> 01:25:41,795
be able to read it and route an

2467
01:25:41,795 --> 01:25:43,475
infinite number of 18 hole courses over it.

2468
01:25:45,089 --> 01:25:47,266
You could give it further instructions such as

2469
01:25:47,406 --> 01:25:50,362
minimizing the green tea distances, eliminating claims or

2470
01:25:50,362 --> 01:25:51,800
dissent beyond certain elevations.

2471
01:25:52,373 --> 01:25:55,398
Make it maximize long range views, create certain

2472
01:25:55,398 --> 01:25:56,034
par values,

2473
01:25:56,511 --> 01:25:58,182
return or don't return to nines and so

2474
01:25:58,182 --> 01:26:00,570
on, and the intelligence could in theory produce

2475
01:26:00,570 --> 01:26:01,446
an ideal routing.

2476
01:26:02,977 --> 01:26:04,175
You could even go a step further and

2477
01:26:04,175 --> 01:26:06,091
feed an information about certain design styles,

2478
01:26:06,729 --> 01:26:09,623
Links sc for instance, or appropriate to this

2479
01:26:09,682 --> 01:26:12,888
conversation, Sand Be off or Bunker styles or

2480
01:26:12,888 --> 01:26:14,962
the concepts of Seth rain or Robert Trent

2481
01:26:14,962 --> 01:26:16,158
jones or Old Tom Morris.

2482
01:26:17,515 --> 01:26:19,668
Tom Do with Brian Zag has been experimenting

2483
01:26:19,668 --> 01:26:20,726
with using Lidar

2484
01:26:21,118 --> 01:26:24,231
computers and Gps mapping to perfectly replicate existing

2485
01:26:24,231 --> 01:26:26,944
or formally existing holes at Toledo and the

2486
01:26:26,944 --> 01:26:28,700
new Sand glass, course in Florida.

2487
01:26:29,752 --> 01:26:31,425
Ai is the next step in the evolution

2488
01:26:31,425 --> 01:26:33,575
of using technology to create golf courses.

2489
01:26:34,372 --> 01:26:35,805
It may be just a matter of time.

2490
01:26:36,298 --> 01:26:38,469
Before developers and clubs are going to bypass

2491
01:26:38,685 --> 01:26:41,550
architects altogether and let Ai design their courses.

2492
01:26:43,712 --> 01:26:45,300
On that note, thanks to Mike c for

2493
01:26:45,300 --> 01:26:46,886
a lovely conversation to turn it back to

2494
01:26:46,886 --> 01:26:47,998
a a more pleasant topic.

2495
01:26:48,712 --> 01:26:50,538
If you're not washing your laundry in cold

2496
01:26:50,538 --> 01:26:52,934
water, what are you waiting for? There's no

2497
01:26:52,934 --> 01:26:54,999
downside, your clothes will be just as clean

2498
01:26:54,999 --> 01:26:56,984
and the upside in the near and long

2499
01:26:56,984 --> 01:26:59,922
term is reduced energy bills and a small

2500
01:26:59,922 --> 01:27:01,193
impact on resource consumption.

2501
01:27:02,002 --> 01:27:03,035
All you have to do is push a

2502
01:27:03,035 --> 01:27:05,260
button. What could be easier than that to

2503
01:27:05,260 --> 01:27:07,111
help make a difference in your bank account

2504
01:27:07,247 --> 01:27:08,121
and the environment.

2505
01:27:09,408 --> 01:27:11,326
I hope you enjoyed this episode. Thanks for

2506
01:27:11,326 --> 01:27:13,404
listening. Thanks to the Sun dogs for the

2507
01:27:13,404 --> 01:27:15,161
intro music and until we have a chance

2508
01:27:15,161 --> 01:27:15,880
to do this again.

2509
01:27:16,614 --> 01:27:17,014
Adios.