Hello? I'm Derek Duncan with the Feed ball
podcast.
And for episode 88,
I've got as my guest, Mike Cock, 1
of the principles at Oc Golf, the Australian
design firm consisting of cock, former professional player,
Jeff Og and Ashley mead.
When you think of Australian Golf and the
influence its had on global design,
It's impossible not to think of Alas Mckinsey.
Mckinsey visited Australia New Zealand for a relatively
short period of time in late 19 26.
But his impact on the gulf in these
countries, particularly the courses around Melbourne was immense.
Though he mainly advised clubs on their remodeling
plans,
The style of rugged sweeping Cape and Bay
bunker he introduced, mostly carried out after his
departure by Alex Russell and Mick More. Put
a stamp on sand golf that remains ind
today.
Generations of golfers learned the game on the
courses that Mackenzie touched like Royal Melbourne. And
Kingston Heath, and that Sand style of golf
would educate and inform later Australian designers from
Peter Thompson and Bruce Devon to Greg Norman,
Bob Harrison and Mike Clayton, who formerly worked
with the members of Oc.
It's interesting to see the genetics of that
style of golf begin to work its way
back into design in the Us.
Though Mckinsey was obviously British. He spent most
of his time in the remaining years after
his visit down under living and working in
the Us.
Now, we're seeing cock an Oc return the
favor, bringing elements of Australian design personality,
influenced by Mackenzie to projects here in the
states.
It's a little like rock and roll in
the early 19 sixties when American audiences were
shown variations of their own homegrown music, rock,
blues, soul,
as filtered through the ears and instruments of
British bands like the beatles and stones,
Over the last 5 years, cock and Have
made substantial inroads here.
Remodeling courses like Shady Oaks and fort worth,
Ben Hogan Old Club.
And the famed Medina in number 3 course,
which just recently reopened after a major
transformation of its property.
While neither are strict covers of what you'd
find in Australia, there are certainly elements of
style and personality that reach directly back to
the sand belt.
While Cock and Oc have also begun several
new upscale destination club courses,
including the fall line in the Sandy Central
region of Georgia.
Tip in the Dune z Prairie region West
of Minneapolis and another new project in Central
Texas.
Given these great sites and pure design freedom,
It'll be interesting to see how the themes
from the sand belt might be interpreted via
American soil and the vision of Oc.
Cock is a great hang. 1 of the
nicest and most conscientious people in the design
business.
It's easy to see why he and Og
and Mead are getting the jobs they are,
and We spend time talking about the character
of the sand belt, how things have begun
to happen rather quickly for the firm, the
fall line and other topics. And dig pretty
deep into their radical remodel of medina, and
ponder whether it will be a shot in
the arm for the horse's reputation a shot
the club desperately needs.
You'll love this 1. Here's me and Mike
Cock.
I'm in Minnesota. So on project up you
end.
So I'm in, the house, it's actually quite
it's quite it's very
civilized.
So the the property,
the the developer bought, the property offer
off
was sort of 2 different properties, but it
there was a house on 1 of the
properties. So we stay in the house when
we're on so to logically...
Above the hole, and,
you, So you can get up in the
morning, have breakfast and just walk out the
sites. That's actually it's pretty nice. That's a
that's a benefit. I remember having conversations with
like, Bill core, and he would talk about
going to places like Sand hills or some
of the other remote places that they'd built
golf courses.
They'd be the first 1 in, and there
was no infrastructure, you know, the nearest or
place to stay could be, you know, 20
miles away. So they were always kind of,
you know, pioneering their way through these... Lease
landscapes And then obviously, like the second or
third person that comes in and builds a
course after them. But they have all the...
The resort facilities and Yeah. The luxury touches
is, what they didn't have to rough it
as much, but you got a house That's
good. Yeah. Absolutely. I mean so severity because
they... Yeah, to to your point in bill's
point. Our of the projects are pretty remote.
So, you know, the 1 down in Georgia
there's just nothing, you know, he can't. You
know.
So how do how do you work that?
Do you stay... Is that near... Less near
Columbus? Isn't it kinda down that area?
Yeah. It's about an hour from Columbus? U.
Do It's it's...
You know, so I I kind of... I
I drive past the Starbucks in the morning
and grab... You know, a bit of banana
bread and a couple bottles of water, and
then that's launched 2 ration for today.
Yeah. That's right. Have a coffee on the
way down and then,
get back to the hotel at 06:00 or
07:00,
have a dinner and do it all again.
Yeah. Well I was just thinking about you.
I mean,
just about everything you do these days is
is a hell commute. Now how how often
are you coming to the United States?
It's a pretty crazy program, Basically every month.
So wow.
So
this year because it's so busy.
I'm doing about 2 and a half weeks
here, and then Ashley,
kind of flies over when I fly home.
So someone's always in the states and someone's
always in a in Australia. Mh. So that...
That's kind of the theory. So And each
trip... We've got 3 in construction. So we've
got we're still going in Georgia
up here in Minnesota, and we've got a
new project in Austin.
Oh So you sort of do 5 or
6 days at each,
and then there's usually a couple of days
somewhere,
throw thrown in. So great. That's that's the
trip. I go home. Ashley comes over and
does the same order. So it means that
you you're never really more than 2 weeks.
Away from a project. So keeps the projects
moving,
but it just requires a fair bit of,
communication between 2 of. So usually, 1 of
us all
rough in 3 holes, get them squared away,
the other person will come in make edits,
and then get started on the next 3
holes.
And and just kind of keep keep going
that sort of, You. Right because you've got
it down to a kind of a process
now And it's a good thing I'm... It's
good thing you guys probably don't have families
families or social lives or anything going on.
We do... What we do. But
this is very understanding at the moment but.
Know, you never know when it's gonna end
india, you know, it's kind of... I mean,
everyone is so busy at that moment and
all great projects. So you just... Kind of,
you know, you just have to
just have to deal with it And,
yeah.
Was it always your plan to work this
much in the Us? Just
no. It's funny. Like, you know, I think
Like most, of course design fans,
you sort of start local, all of your
your,
you know, your early jobs to sort of
fairly, you know, within the states.
And then we we grew and we did
a lot of work around Australia,
And we we probably looked more in Asia
to be honest, we kept getting
you know, shortlist on all these projects and,
you know, we went to Kim
Thailand,
Vietnam, a bunch of times, China,
sort of earlier probably 15 different trips, you
know, through Asia, and just never really...
Because we're... I think we're funny because they...
I found the Asian market,
would either wanna a name, like a a
name is in like a norman or AAAA
palmer or a nicholas or, you know, like
a...
You know.
For marketing reasons and... The marketing Yeah.
Or they wanted to pay the bare minimum
they wanted to pay the least amount. So...
And we've... We were neither. Mh We're not
the cheapest, but we're not really, like a
name in that sense. And so
in, every time we had conversations with them
and we talk about, you know, we spend
all this time on the ground, and and
it just never made any. And they'd be
like, well, but we've got project managers. We've
got people here. You know, you don't need
to be here. You just need to do
the plans and and and give us the
plans. It's was like, yeah. It's not really
how we work. So. Yeah. We're in the
field. And and so it just it just
was never a fit. We we ended up
doing a great project in China,
and that was it. And then...
And then Shady oaks was the first project
we did in the states, and then it
just kind of took off from there really.
Like it was... It's amazing how it's kind
of the last 5 years have sort of
unfolded in now.
Yeah. To your point about half our business
is in America. Yeah. Half in Australia,
And to be honest, that would be the
that would be the perfect balance
for as long as that can last really
because it's a...
You know, we enjoy coming over here. It's
whilst it's a long way away. Everyone speaks
the same language.
Everyone does business in a similar way they
understand how we work.
That makes it pretty convenient then, you know,
the travel tough, but, you know, long hours
in the air, but once you once you
touch down, it's very familiar.
Absolutely. And we... We've got a a Us
shape as well as Australian shape. And so
it just... It's a very it's just an
easy fit.
So I don't... We I don't think we'll
chase jobs. So certainly my chase jobs was
in Asia if something came along and it
was a good fit then and fine.
And Europe sort of seems as a bit
of a... So seems very clicky. Seems a
bit of a a closed shop really
to
mainly European architects, and, you know, the old
American has has had some... Done some work
there as well.
So, yeah. So I just think it... It's
kind of, yeah, Australia in Us for for
the time being.
I just found out that I have to
go to China
at the end of August. I've never been
there. And just the... Really? The... Yeah. No.
I've never been there and and where we're
going is, like,
central China, and just... It's overwhelming to me
for never having to have to plan a
trip like that before and
to the thought of dealing with, you know,
language barriers and all the different things you
have to do, especially in China,
technological wise and and how we
you know, just get from point a to
point b. So I'm struggling through that right
now, trying to figure out how that's done.
So, the the thought of maybe going to
Australia versus China would be very appealing to
me.
Oh, yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. We we kind of nice memories of
work in China. It was it was very...
Thing. You know, we'd we'd
you'd have,
you know, there were farmers and, you know,
you you'd sort of sting can't speak the
same language, but it's amazing when you get
down on the in the dirt and you
sort of explain something or you sort of
point to things and
just how
the ability to sort of overcome those language
barriers is is is amazing, really.
So, yeah. It it it'll work out.
1 way or the other. It'll be... It'll
be fine. Yeah.
Well it's... You know, so you you've got...
The fall line in Georgia, which we mentioned
in you're in Minnesota right now. So these
are 2 brand new courses.
And then we can talk about those. I'd
I'd love to hear more about them. But.
What is the state of new course construction
in in Australia right now? You know, we've
seen new new great new courses come up
in New Zealand and...
Tasmania seems to be pretty hot.
What's what's Australia? What's happening there as far
as new courses.
It's still fairly slow, I would say,
so through the eighties and nineties
and early 2 thousands.
Most of the new courses in Australia were
attached to residential. Mh. So
that was a pretty common
formula, I guess,
not that many new courses that were sort
of standalone and courses
destination. So courses were built, but Bam who
was was really the first of them I
would say. And then Lost Farm and then
couple on King Island and mh.
Who or this
7 Beach in in Hobart. There's 1 that
we've been looking at in Hobart. So
there are a few, but it's probably on
average, it would be, like, 1 a year.
I would say.
It's not lot. Yeah.
And it's just not. I guess it's a
it's a tricky. It's business model. I mean
it amaze me over here how,
you know, these private a lot of them
are billionaires that a developing them. But, you
know, these these these these private
Uber private high end
courses
you know, with 200 members or 250 members
and they charge a lot, you know, might
be half a million dollars or a million
dollars or 250000
dollars. And that formula just doesn't work in
Australia. You just... You couldn't get enough people
with that sort of money,
you know, that often they'd find private jets
and things to get to these places. So
it's
most of the
these sort of
to destination courses in Australia have been public.
Publicly accessible. Mh.
And that's... It's... I guess it's tricky. It's
a leap faith if you're the owner,
that, you know, that it's gonna work. So
as a result, it's, you know, there haven't
been so many. I mean, that's like he
just said that's true in the Us as
well. I mean, the the the biggest impact
of new courses has been seen in the
realm of these...
You know,
destination courses and really exotic landscapes that caters
to a,
a clientele who, has the ability to get
there on private jets. They probably
do,
8000 rounds a year or something, You know,
I don't, I'm making that number up, but
it's it's pretty small amount. And then you
see some resorts that that build out the
Cabo group, you know, is just open the
Or renovate, remodel the the Citrus Farms property.
But that's kind of an upscale play too.
And there's really not a lot of
the... Of that middle ground public course
or middle ground
new private club, that's in a suburb of
a city.
You know, it's it's it's really just... I
hate to say it, but, you know, we've
seen some nice
renovations of municipal courses with with
groups getting
private funds to rehab some some nice old
public courses. And then it's just you know,
this skull for the 1 percent class.
That seems to be going quite well. But,
yeah. That... There's that that big doughnut hole
in the middle where. There's not that in
the United States and the 19 nineties, a
lot of the golf courses that were built
were
public access. They weren't municipal but they were
public courses, daily fee,
semi private, you know, you could get a
membership, but it was open to anybody,
t times were are open to to anybody.
And that was a real business model. And
I think a lot of those courses have
that,
model hasn't maybe held up that well, but
we certainly aren't seeing much of that
at this late game. No.
No. And it seems like the the those
really high end
public facilities that sort of catering to a
similar
type of golfer to the private courses in
a way. That's true.
So, yeah. The the the... I mean, you
have some means to be able to get
to
cabbage cape Bread. You know, for instance, or
even San Valley, you know, it's a it's
a plain
ride in a in a couple hour drive.
Yeah. And and they're pretty expensive. You know
Think... It's it's it's 250 or 300 dollars
for around and then and usually, they go
there for.
2 or 3 days. So it's 3 or
4 rounds. It's cat. It's food, it's accommodation,
their fares.
It's... Yeah. It's good. It's significant.
Investment.
Number. Yeah. Absolutely.
Where, yeah. And and in, again, to relate
it back to Australia, You know then, we
don't really have a cat culture,
I think inherently,
Australians are
perhaps cheap. They just...
They they look at Cat brutal while they're
frugal. Why would they I do that? I've
yeah. For.
It's like, well, I could just get a
buggy and just wheel around. Yeah. And and
probably it's because, I mean, we used to
be have a cat culture, but it's just
not anymore. And, I think If you've never
had a cad, you've never experienced sort of
the joys of having a good cat, perhaps,
you know, you don't see the value.
But, you know, the ceiling for public
golf in Australia is probably like a hundred
and 50 dollars. Mh.
I think people would you would struggle to
to get them to pay a lot more
than that.
Yeah. Whereas it whereas over here. It's, yeah.
It's it's... Yeah. They're they
it's a decent spend. And there's not many
sort of high quality minis where you can
spend, you know, 50 or a hundred dollars
and get you know. Yeah And I think
you know this better than... Than I do.
But I think the the economics are pretty
clear
that
it's really, really difficult at least in the
Us and I'm imagining Australia too, it would
be very difficult to build a public golf
course
with a green fee of 50 or
70 dollars even and make that
financially viable just because of the the outlay,
you know, the land, the, you know, everything
else that goes into the construction and the
the debt and,
I just don't... Maybe that's just gone away
forever. If it hasn't been built yet, maybe
that's not coming back.
Yeah. It's a... Yeah. With that. The numbers
on, you know, you occasionally, you know, you
get nice properties come across your desk and
you sort of trying to help potential owners
and and the the lands the killer. Yeah.
The land and the infrastructure because as soon
as soon you build a club house and
purchase the land. I mean it you might
be spending 15000000, and it's a lot to
get back. You know,
you can kinda do the math on usually
on the construction and the maintenance and perhaps
are, you know, paying that off over a
number of years, but the the the actual,
investment in the land and then the
then the,
club and the verticals and pulling in, you
know, power and electricity and water is tricky.
Yeah. Yeah. So we we are saying here
a lot
of
somebody buying
an existing golf course. That maybe is not
doing well financially and and hiring an architect
to basically build a new golf course over
the top. But you've already got the land.
You've got a lot of the roads. You've
got a lot of the infrastructure. I think
there's... Yeah. And maybe those green fees are...
They're probably to be actually honest with you.
They're probably now a hundred and 25 dollar
green fees or 150
instead of... 50 or 75, but there is
some movement in that direction.
Yeah.
When construction costs to have got up a
lot.
Know, years ago, I remember Tom,
doug sort of
talking about, you know, there was, like his
first 12, of course, this didn't cost. Million
dollars. You know, they're all built for less
than, you know, 4000000 dollars. Bam Was built
for less than 4000000 and
whereas now 4 become 04:12 or 15.
And on some renovations, you know, when when
you look at, like, precision air and all
this different technology technologies, suddenly it's like 20,
you know, It's crazy money. It's crazy money.
You know, the the thing about... It was
always... Then this... I know this was a
long time ago, but Shadow Creek was p
built for, I think... You know, the hear
different numbers, but 40000000 dollars.
And some of these renovations now of of
high end private clubs, a renovation with,
precision there or or sub or whatever you
wanna, you know, Yeah technology you wanna put
the ground could be 20000000.
Maybe more. I don't know.
It's just
it's it's it's fascinating the the the economics
behind it.
Yeah. It's funny. I I remember interviewing in
Vietnam
many years ago.
And the client
asked, you know, how much to build the
golf course. And back then, and it was
like, it was probably 5 or 6000000 dollars.
And but but the person that was representing
and said. No, just just say million dollars
a whole. That's you that you don't wanna
hand under sell you... And I remember thinking
of the time million dollars at the hole,
that's ridiculous. It's like 18000000 dollars, And here
we are 10:10
late. Yeah. Yeah. That's what it's got. You.
You could you could spend an unlimited amount
of money building golf now. You know? Yeah.
Yeah. You could. Yeah. Yeah. Just out just
because you mentioned it,
What, I'd love to get your take on
it? Well first of all, like how much
how often do you get to play golf?
Not that much anymore really. I mean, I
still love it.
I never really fell out of love with
the game. Like, I I used to play
competitively,
and it's funny a lot of my conte.
The ones that weren't successful and that's most
of them.
They just end up hating the game because
it becomes a job,
and they equate the game with earning a
living
And then, you know, they're missing carts and
losing their card they end up just never
playing again.
And that never happened to me, which is
fought and I I still love the guy
and that's good.
Unfortunately, it's, you know, it's probably 10 to
15 rounds a year, I would say. And
it's usually in
I mean, like you, 1 of the nice
things with the industries is you meet people
that are members of nice clubs and,
you know, so so the 10 or 15
round is usually nice. And
they come in in quick succession, You know,
it might be 3 rounds in week and
it's at, you know, 3
unbelievable golf courses, but then I went Tetra
club for 3 months. So. Yeah No. I
think that's pretty typical of
a lot of people in our business.
You really have to carve out time to
play golf. It's such a difficult time consuming
endeavor, and and it involves travel and
connections? And what just out of curiosity, What
when you were playing competitive golf, what types...
Did you have a type of course that
fit your game or that you liked? And
have... Has your view on
golf courses and architecture evolved. They're changed since
you had to... You know, we're were trying
to make a score.
I'd like to think that my game has
an influence
that architecture too much.
You know, you obviously, there's lots of famous
instances of, you know,
Nicholas building left to our greens and sure.
Like that. And I guess everyone has their
own bias, but, famous No, I was good.
I was pretty consistent. I would say. I
ball was usually in play. Had a very
good short game.
So and and just sort of generally solid.
Mh. With was probably in my game.
I would say I'm probably more influenced just
by the courses that I grow up on
in the sort of through those formative years...
But, you know, playing around Melbourne
playing Sand belt courses,
it's not like all we wanna build this
Sand belt courses
or anything like that, but I think there's
elements of Sandal Golf that just almost become
part of your Dna. You know, you you
typically like wide fairway. You know, we... We're
never gonna build a golf, of course with
narrow fairway.
We like interesting greens, you know, and and
Sand, Golf is fairly pure from a strip...
Strategic point of view, you know, there's there's
always a position on the fairway where you
wanna be and, you know,
a right side and the wrong side and
And I think you're irrespective of the style,
of course, we're building that some of those
things to tend to get flushed out with
the design.
How are you shore grass linking holes together
grand tea he fairway. So, yeah. So... But
I would say yeah. That that more so
than my my game is influenced. Did you
realize?
Growing up in in that
part of the Australia that house kinda special
and how renowned those courses were that you
were exposed to?
Not not as a kid because not really
because you'd... Well, as a 15 year old
didn't know anything and you you know, you
see the you see a gas Tv and
think that that's, Yeah. You know.
That's what great coffee. Still hard.
Yeah. But certainly, as you grow, I mean,
I traveled quite a lot when I was
playing as an Am, so I've got to
see a lot of golf courses, particularly in
Europe. I went to Europe that.
6 years in a row, I would say.
And I would... It was kind of pre
internet.
So I just right away. I had Tom's...
Yeah, I had the confidential guide. And I
would where Where I was playing events, so
I would kind of look through that, see
what was in the area, and I'd run
a letter or send an email. Yeah.
And
always got a positive response, never never got
rejected.
And then did the same in America, So
I would just kind of...
Seek out golf courses. And and the more
golf you played overseas and then came home.
I think that's when it started you started
to realize just how special habit it was
and that you know, we we did things
that others didn't do
oc overseas and and that's when that's sort
of probably the penny dropped.
So so you you are more of a
intellectually curious
player than than most
competitive golfers are.
Yep.
My experience is most... Their, you know, they
really great golfers typically,
not all the time, but typically,
are just really analyzing the shots that they
need to hit and kind of have blind
on and and probably have a lot of
courses that they dislike
because they don't fit their eye, or they
didn't play well there. And so they're they're
just not curious about
courses and design.
No. And look, maybe that was to my
detriment as a player of perhaps for
Yeah. I just... I I enjoyed history. I
enjoyed reading about... Courses, I enjoyed reading about
players.
And and
once I found sort of the confidential goal
courses eyed and kind of started getting into
the architecture that that became an interest even
when I was playing.
And then and I wasn't that comfortable
probably wasn't well. I don't know whether I
was good enough or not, but I had
a couple of injuries and
I was never that comfortable with the idea
of playing professionally any anyway way to be
honest. It's it seemed such a... Strange existence.
And so
I was in the right place at the
right time and got a foot in the
door with architecture, and and it was a
pretty strange comfortable
transition from from playing to that.
Yeah. There's something to be explored there more
about...
I mean, I I don't think it's this
is not a novel idea or not thing
to say, But, you know, there's... The golf
courses that are produced by firms run by
former or active tour players,
probably
haven't and won't stand the test of time.
You know, They're they're not going to generally
be the golf courses that we look back
on in 50 years or a hundred years
and are still, you know, really enamored with.
So there's... But so there's something about being
a a great player and the way you
see golf for
the way your... The brain processes things that...
Or or and perhaps it's just the clientele
that hires you to. They're not interested as...
Yeah. Yeah. You know, they're they're interested in
selling homes or or they have a resort.
So there's a lot of things that go
into it, but, you know, that... I don't
think history will be kind to
professional
tour player designers.
They had their moment in the eighties and
nineties. And Yeah. In fact, I don't... Other
than, you know, obviously,
your firm,
and there might... I'm probably forgetting something, but
I'm not sure if there's going to be
a next generation of tour players who are
active in building golf courses.
I'd be curious to know
who those potential players might be. There's probably
a few people that are interested in it,
but, you know, just the epidemic economics that
and what kind of courses are being built
and where seems...
That there doesn't seem to be a clear
avenue or a lane for professional player architect
now.
1, and I think 2 that
it seems like people have moved past that
this idea that you had to be a
great player in order to build a good.
Golf course. It's a bit light, you know,
that you had to be a good player
to be a good coach. I mean, know
it.
Everyone understands that that's not the case. Yeah.
Anymore.
And I think even,
you know, 20 years ago, no 1 knew
who Tom Do was in Australia whereas now.
Most members of golf courses know who Ton
is or Gill Hands or, you know, core.
And so I think everyone's kind of move
past this notion of
having a, you know,
that you have to have some major winner
in order to produce a good golf course.
So
so... Yes. So may maybe it'll maybe we
just won't see it again. Maybe it'll be
just, you know, actual architects.
The thing I was going to get out
was you you mentioned Cad. Right And I'd
be curious to know, like, you said you
play maybe 10:15 rounds a year and they're
usually at nice places.
When I play... I...
I think over the last couple years, I've
probably only played a handful rounds without a
cad. Just it's just for whatever for these
reasons wherever I go.
There's if there's a cad program,
and, you know, and
and they're professional cad for the most part.
They're not, you know,
not like an Ireland where you get got
kieran off the, you know, off the street,
he gonna smoke 18 cigarettes says you know
when you go around, Yeah. You know, these
are these are guys who who do this
for a living. Yeah. And I just wonder
it at that at that level of golf
at the club level in these destination clubs
and and the abandoned Dune. Of the world.
If...
I don't know Almost gotten to the point
where
I'd I I just really look forward to
not playing not having a cad of would
love to put my, bag on my shoulder
and walker or, you know, do the Australian.
What maybe think about is you said in
Australian, you know that just not a cat
culture and people would just rather they're... Bag
on a trolley and walk, and that's really
refreshing to me. I'd I'd like it to
not
to not have less of a cat culture.
At some of these places that I've visit.
Yeah.
And I guess it's what you used to,
but
I
look a small percentage of my rounds would
have a cat.
And if I'm just playing with friends.
I mean, it's nice. But, yeah, I I
still quite like just pulling my bag and
just kind of wandering around the golf course
and
spending some... You know, even even though I'm
just playing by myself, it's just kind of
a nice way to unwind and, you know,
play a bit all. And Not feel like
after, you know? Yeah. Have to be on
with the cat the whole time. Exactly. Yeah.
I mean, it's it's it... It's nice to
do it occasionally as a treat. Yeah. And
you and everyone's shoulder, you'll get in you'll
get a cad that you really connect with
or, you know, you need the cad to
read... Some really difficult punch or whatever if
you care about that. But, yeah, it... Yeah...
There's also a lot to be said for
figuring it on your own, you know, just
being independent and thinking through it and being
calm and not having to carry on a
conversation.
Yeah. Yeah. Sometimes it's a lot of pressure,
You know. It's like you feel after
you know,
after to entertain them as well. So sometimes,
sometimes. Yeah
you know, they're they're... We're doing this thing
at golf digest and trying to come up
with a this...
For just for a a fun story of,
you know, like, courses, you know, this week
though... Open was at at t. So courses
in the Us that, you know, aren't really
links, but either look like a links or
play like a link. So we came up
with a list of courses.
And and it it occurred to me that
there's another
variation on that thing. You know, you always
hear that in different places around the world,
you know, this is a links like course
or they even actually describe courses that aren't
links as links. There's also,
you know, going back for quite a while.
The idea of, like, you hear this course
is was designed or this architecture was trying
to do, like, sand built style of golf
course. Mh.
What does that mean to you? What... We
you mentioned it
a minute ago with than interesting greens and
the use of short grass and other things.
But what... Can you take that a step
farther tell us what kind of the sand
belt thing is and white
And more importantly, why is it so hard
to replicate
if it's ever actually
really been replicate replicated outside of Melbourne?
Yeah.
I think it can be replicated outside Melbourne
a lot of people,
you know, they talk about that... The angular
sands, and it's the only place in the
world that you can build bunker that cut
right into a green.
Is that true?
I that. We've just down at the full
line. So down in Georgia. Mh. But it
just have to do... I mean, they're the
quality, Their actual
type of sand does have something to do
with it.
It it does. It it does. But that
I find it hard to believe that Melbourne
is the only place in the world that
has angular sand.
In a in a moderate climate that Where
you're growing Bank grass on on the greens
and boom bermuda to fairway. Like, there there
we are. There are other places in the
world that that would have those characteristics.
It's it's a combination of things. That certainly
wood fin angles,
greens are typically tilt. They're not generally not
heavily un and not with a lot of
internal contour.
You... Usually, they're kind long grades that tie
into whether it's a surrounding man or a
surrounding bunker.
Firm, firm and fast.
And
I think the style of the bunker, which
sort of goes back to
Alas and Mackenzie visit, but but really 2
un undone heroes of the Sand belt, which
was Mick, who was the superintendent, Rom Melbourne
and his Son,
who was the superintendent Kingston Heath for 46
years.
They really developed that Sand belt style of
bunker, and it's...
It's
unclear,
a very searched at a lot.
And
what what influenced he had on those 2
is really difficult to say. I think certainly,
when you when you look at some of
the bunker at say more town and some
of Mackenzie bunker at a at a couple
of courses before he came to Australia,
there's sort of the capes and bay of
of of the bunker style.
So I I feel like he definitely
sort of
educated them, but then they took it a
step further because then he disappeared. He was
only here for 10 weeks.
They didn't communicate. It's not like they were
taking photos and writing letters and going back
and forth or sending emails.
So they really then...
Took that... Took the knowledge and and really
developed
that sort of
unique
Sand style of Bunker.
So there there probably some of the factors
I would say to go into building a
sand belt of course, you you do hear
it a lot that this was built in
a sand belt style and you look at
it, and it's it's it's not sand belt
at all.
We also have sort of some nice textures
in the raft. You know, It's not pristine.
You know, 2 inch rough. It's
typically, there's a little bit of maintained rough
on the edge of the fairway, but then
it goes into
whether it's sand, whether it's heath, whether it's
kind of long ish urban grass or. It's
it's it's got a rugged nest to it,
so, you know, off the fairway is is
fairly rugged.
Had, you know, shares has some similarities with
the he land around London, I guess, different
bunker ring style, but sort of the use
of heath tea carries and on the backside
of bunker. Mh.
It's somewhat similar of the sand belt as
well.
So, yeah. So for a long time, you
know, people have said it's, you know, in
place you could build a sand belt style
course because of these, you know, the the
angular sands, which are... Which are out the
edge of the greens to get quite compact.
And, you know, to be able to mow
the bank grass right to the edge of
the bunker. Yeah.
And that's really been a modern
phenomenon
the superintendent at Metropolitan and started that trend
in the nineties. Prior to that, we always
had a collar
of of of
sort of fairway length grass between the edge
of the the green and the bunker. But
then
he pushed the green right to the edge
of the bunker and then basically everyone followed
suit. Interesting. Yeah
He went to Royal Melbourne,
then we we built peninsula at Kings and
and wanted to do the same thing.
And then Woodlands follow, we did Victoria. And
and yet, now it's become kind of synonymous
with the Sand belt. And everyone from overseas
loves it, like in such a cool look.
Yeah. So that's... That when we in doing
the full line, we we were quite keen
to try and
do the same thing, even though it's for
bermuda to grass, not in grass.
And, yet, there's a few tricks. There's a
few ways that you can kind of create
stability on the bunker.
Even without that angular sands, and that's that's
kind of what we've done there. So we've
we've definitely given a December look, but,
even in in the absence of the exact...
Same sand that you would find it mel.
Other than that, have you seen
courses or architects who have really pulled off
a... A sand belt style course
outside of Melbourne.
Not really. I mean, other parts of a
value that you can you can definitely see
some sandal styles,
but not overseas.
And it's just ones the value the the
firm too. Like, it's so hard. You go
to a different climate.
You know, because we then have a great
amount of rainfall, And obviously, it's it it
it's sand,
the
the, you know, drains well,
and they have the ability to get the
greens incredibly firm. So it
I think that's why they've been able to
stay relevant even though they're quite short by
modern
standards. You know, the the longer Sand of
course is probably.
7200
yards, I would say. Most of around 7000
yards, but they... They're they're so firm and
fast that if you're... You, if you're at
a position, you just can't stop the ball
on the grain, whereas,
you know, a lot of these sort of
other sandal style costs are in climates where
the the grains are soft and the fairway
are soft and so
it may look a little bit like a
sand course, but it doesn't play like a
Sand course, and that's probably the distinction. You
know, you you could you can build a
course that looks Sand like.
Whether or not it plays as Sam of
course is the... That's the probably the trickier.
Think. Yeah. It's it's like...
You'd always hear, you know, this this is
a so and so links, and it's... You
know it's just a marketing
phrase. Yep. You know, There... Yes. It's just
for marketing purposes, This is a sand belt
course. But I have... I have heard architects
talk about it a little bit more,
in recent years,
and and I haven't been to Melbourne, So
I don't...
Haven't don't have experience, but
I certainly rarely come away thinking, okay. They
they nailed it there. Like that real, this
this is what I imagine a Sand belt
course. To to look and and play like.
So... Yeah. It's just a Yeah. It I
wish I just kinda wish it... We just
have a moratorium on on that marketing phrase
you know, In this... Unless you can actually
pull it off and you and you're actually
really trying to to to do it.
Yeah. Then let's just call what it is.
I think though ever at the moment and
we're guilty of it as well,
but it seems like everyone wants it angle
with the the the latest course. You know,
it's...
It's a
Or it's a rain or it's a sand
belt or it's to these sorts of that.
No one's really just say, you know, We
just wanna build a good golf course. No.
I know. White. Why is that?
I mean, you know, we'll we'll just figure
out the style. And build some nice bunker
and it is what it is. What do
you think that is? Is it just because
information travel so much more quickly. And I
I think the I think the average Iq
of the of the gulf for at least
in in the United States
has risen tremendously over the last 10 years.
In in parts due to, you know, the
Internet social media,
podcasts
So there's an audience out there who who
will pa
respond to,
Seth Rain templates or a sand belt style
of course.
Deep, is there some... Is is it that?
Or is there something else at play?
I don't know. I... You know, maybe it's...
Yeah. It could be that a a bit
of marketing? Perhaps just to try and get
people excited about something or well they want...
Maybe they want something that's tangible that they
can understand, you know, rather than just saying,
it'll just be know, it's just gonna build
a a nice golf course.
Adding, you know, it's gonna be in this
particular style or it's gonna be sort of
after a particular architect style,
maybe it just... It adds that little bit
of
tang ability that
gets them a bit more excited. But III
don't know, but it seems seems like every
single project has to have a angle at
the moment. It seems like it...
You know... I guess, there are a few
people, like... It to go back to Bill
Core, Yeah, I don't think that he ever
feels the need to
to dress up his intentions.
No. I mean, if you could talk to
him, he'd described what he's doing, but, the
the those types of
adjectives wouldn't probably come out of his mouth.
But, yeah, it does seem like... That's the
hook. You know, you need a, you know,
you need a the pamphlet. You need the
the sales pitch to get your
private jet,
hedge fund members,
private equity people
you know, to come out to to middle
of Texas or wherever that is that you're
driving the golf course,
Yeah. And, yeah, to, you know, we're we're
just as guilty confused as anywhere else, but
it's just, yeah, something I was thinking about
a little while ago that it seems like
every or most projects have certainly have an
angle. Yeah. It would be very refreshing for
someone just to say, yeah. Just, you know,
Just gonna build and greg golf. Course here.
Does not like anything else? Build the Try.
Gonna build the best golf, of course, we
can. And we'll just see with that. Yeah
what was it like for how how how
rewarding was it for you to work
in the the sand of of Georgia for
fall line. You know, that's
different in working at Med medina, for sure,
and and probably some of the other projects
that you've had in the past. Although you...
I think you've been pretty fortunate with the
sites that that you've worked on, but know,
that that seems to me well from what
I know about it, a really great opportunity
to work in an environment that's both
sand, you and just has, you know, the
the vegetation and and the the textures around
it.
Yeah. Absolutely.
Well, into, you know, it was
1 of the first
chances we'd had to to rat a golf
course and and actually build it. You know,
I mean,
Yeah routing
important part of architecture and, you know, in
in your formative years and as as we've
done a lot of renovation work, you don't
get to test that ability. You know, in
you can practice it and you can study
it, but actually getting that rare opportunity is,
you know, it's probably gonna become less and
less common, You know, just as there's fewer
and few it already. I mean, I think
there are probably,
less than a dozen architects right working in
the world right now who really get to
route golf courses.
Yeah. Back in the night... At eighties and
nineties, there were dozens if not hundreds, everybody
did it. But Now it's a rare privilege.
Yeah. And, you know, and and sometimes you
get to route courses, but that... It never
they never happened for for whatever reason or...
And so
I... Yeah. I feel
we're very privileged that in in 6 months,
we got to route,
you know, 5 or 6 golf courses, you
know, up here at Tip ton in in
tech access for doing course, and then the
full line, there's actually 3 courses.
Really, there's... Well, there's 36 holes in a
short course. So
Yep. So so... And that was a a
huge, you know, undertaking
it really took
probably 6 months to get the
that
to get the 30 sixth now down and
they're just as a as a process because
it was it was a thick forest of
of pine. So
we would sort of
you know, study that the
contour plan and then spend time in the
field. We had a we had an interesting
hiking app actually, which was really valuable. So
we've never used it before, but you're able
to
have the contour plan on the hiking app
and then you could kind of plot your
path as you walked that you walked during
the day and you could kind of drop
pins on
interesting features or interesting green sites. And and
then you'd sort of go back during Actually,
and I'd go back to the house and
do a bit of a brain dump and
then kinda keep working on the routing plan,
and we we did that over the course
of
6 months, and then and then had the
contractor clearing trees
that we were pretty confident we'll go. And
so it just... It was this
it was a it was a process, but
it...
I think it yielded a fantastic result because
we didn't just clear the property. We were
very careful about. Clearing center lines and then
slowly opening the holes up out and
sort of going, you know, perhaps doing 4
or 5 sweep down every hole until we
got the
spacing of the trees right,
whereas you could have come in and just
removed every tree on the, you know, in
a in a
300 acre area, but it it would have
been to the detriment of the share the
courses. Yeah. Yeah. Trees are trees are okay.
I don't red pine. You don't have to
lead them remove everything.
These are nice, so, you know, they're kind
of beautiful long leaf pines and and... Yeah.
So
Back to your original question. Yeah. It's it's
a it's a beautiful property. It's a
kind of a... It's probably 60 foot elevation
chance... Range all sand, very long grades. So
it looked
to us, it looked very much. It looked
a bit like the sand belt, but it
also looked like. I don't whether you ever
seen there's some old black and white photos
of Sw Forest and Sunny being built
with the back in, you know? Yeah. I
don't know if I have or not. The
twenties. Mh. You know And and it sort
of shows them using Diamond might to blow
up,
you know, tree stump and things like that.
But but it's it looked a lot like
those photos. It looked like the old, photos
of the heath kind of being built. I
think because of the pine trees and the
and the the sand and sort of this
low scrubbing
vegetation that looked a little bit like, you
know, heather if you like. So
from the start, it reminded us a lot
of, like a cross between
the he land, the sand belt and probably
Pond Valley pots of pine Valley sure as
well.
That was kind of our Canvas if you
like,
And it was a very interesting product.
It's it it was kind of that the
property there has got, like, 3 high points,
1 left, 1 middle and 1 right. Are
all about 60 foot high and then this
kind of valleys in between.
And we pretty quickly realized
that it started out as an 18 hole
design, but you couldn't use all 3 parcels
in 18 holes. They were too far apart.
And so we we started actually on a
a 27 hole routing, which... And it I
had kind of a nice,
and interesting
design sort of characteristic where we thought you
could play...
If the central 9 had alternate greens or
alternate tees, you could you could play that
the Western 9 and the central 9 is
01:18, and then you could play the central
9 in the eastern 9 is another 18,
but only built that 7 holes if if
you like. And we we... We're the, like
that idea, but then it the project
got bigger and bigger and then sort of
27 became 36, 20 And then
and then we started thinking if it's if
it's 36, do you build 36 in the
same style like Royal Melbourne? And then potentially
have... And throws up the idea of composite
courses and things like that? Or do you
go down the path of building
2 courses in 2 different styles.
And then
that was where we landed. That we did.
It is, and and we ended up going
down that path of the the He in
the sand belt because it there were parts
of the property that reminded us of of
London and parts that reminded us at Melbourne.
And we...
We'd been into this... Been the he quite
a few times, but in the end, we
we jumped on a plane and went over
there for for a week or 2 took
some of our staff
and,
you know, fig if if we're gonna go
down the heat path, we're not just gonna
bail it and we wanna really try and
nail the
you know, a lot a lot of the
characteristics. So
yep. So we finished that course. That's now
grasped and kind of in play for some
of the members. So, it is in play
for some of the members. And
the Sand cell course is
9 holes are
pretty much playable and we've grasped the other
9 so that that data should be should
be implied by the sort of October, I
would say. So
yeah. And and the Sand, we didn't we
didn't really need to do the jump on
the plane thing. With, you know, we've we've
that 1 time. Yeah. We have Yeah.
But we... You know, the superintendent there was
very much on board, He actually came to
Melbourne, which was great. And
you know, the we knew the the width
and the sort of the he
plants and the sand that that that was
no...
Not an issue, but we were very keen
to get the get the bunker in the
greens,
you know, touching. And and, fortunately, he was
he was on board with it. So, Yeah.
It's a pretty cool feature. And to to
my knowledge, no, I can't think of the
course in America that's done that. So it's
totally unique to... That's really cool.
Anyway. Yeah. Know, it's so remarkable that
where, you know, we can Ikea. I I
won't speak for you. I can sort of
lament that, you know, golf is is just,
you know, you shoved toward the top of
this economic pyramid for people. You know, you
have to be pretty well to do to
to play these great courses that have been
built over the last 20 years. But on
the other side of that, what's remarkable in
a good way is that
there are these sites that have been out,
you know, been out there for... Ever since,
you know, since the earth was formed or
or the continents came together. And they're They're
so good for golf. I mean, you could
I remember an architect here in Geo and
Mike Young told me,
10 or 15 years ago. He said there's...
And it's on the fall line. He said
there's this...
Ridge of sand where, you know, the the...
I forget what... What the... The, you know,
basically, the App appalachian plateau
taper off where it used to be ocean,
and then you start getting sand, and it
goes from around Columbus where your club is
all the way down, you know, through Hoop
mad club all the way down to the
Atlantic Ocean. And there there would be
countless properties if you could get them and
wanted to develop them that would have these
ideal golf characteristics to them, sand,
vegetation pines, you know,
openness whatever. I mean, the soils are just
and and they've always been there, but it's
only recently that would, you know, anybody's
found the economic model to
make them pay off as as
destination clubs.
Yeah. That's right ryan. And, you know, and
prior to sand hills, probably everyone just looked
at this
no 1 probably thought that you could have
a remote course that and and make the
business model work, but
you know, I guess,
30 years later. There's there's, you know, there's
probably 40 or 50 of these destination courses
that... Yeah. Yeah. It'll be interesting to see
if if when we hit the saturation point,
you know? How many... Yeah. How many of
more potential members
want to join another
club that they can play 3 time 4
times a year.
It I mean, 1 of the interesting
it's intrigued me the the model of summit...
These courses now has changed to those, so
which I think appeals to
some of these members who are who are
at multiple clubs.
You know, musk the garage paying monthly dues
for a course that they never go and
visit,
whereas
seems a lot of these
destination courses like it who be, you know,
doing this sort of this initial buy in,
which you can then on sell. Or or
get rid of. So you essentially get your
money back. Yep.
But then... And usually, it's market driven so
you could potentially make money on on the
deal
but then it's just to pay for play
kind of deal. I think that's really interesting.
That's an interesting model. To to in Australia
in anyway. Sure,
where it's a a daily rate,
You know? So at least if you use
the course once or if you use it
10 times,
you know, it's
it's probably a a fair
you would feel a little better about it
than just writing a check for 20000 dollars
every year and and never were saying Sure.
That's that's a good point. Yeah. I mean,
we are still... I guess you'd consider these
the the early days of this model. I
mean, it's been done, but,
yeah. I think. That's obviously, that might be
the way to go.
Let's...
I wanna get into Medina, but but first,
I wanna... This is a topic that I've
been thinking quite in writing a little bit
about lately and my views on it are
evolving. But in your from your perspective and
in your mind, what what is the importance
of
beauty in a golf course or aesthetics.
You know, if you sometimes if you lean
too heavy into that or put too much
value in it, you know, you you're you
get
criticized for only liking courses that are, like,
eye candy or just pretty... That dent... And
the... You know, the sub text is, well,
maybe those courses don't have any substance underneath
the beauty. But
I I think I was... I think that
aesthetics is critical.
Yeah. You have to be stimulated. I, obviously,
you want the the strategies and everything to
be there too. But for as an architect
who's building your own golf courses now and
enhancing others,
like, where do you... Where does your need
fall on the concept of of beauty and
aesthetics?
Yeah. I I think it's it's in imperative.
And I don't see why,
of course, you want.
You wanna nail the routing, you want to,
make the holes as interesting as possible? You
want them to be strategic. But why wouldn't
you want them also so to look attractive?
Right same time. Like it does it...
I I don't understand why you... Why you
wouldn't wanna... So so incorporating
different types of grass, different textures
I think Mackenzie had a good line, You
know, who... Why would you wanna hit over
an ugly looking bunker.
Of, of course, you try it. So things
like
we spend a lot of time on
everything from mowing lines to
the balance of, you know, if you if
you're building bunker,
you know, just just how they look aesthetically,
how they fit the land, how they balance
the you you're not necessarily compromising their location,
but you're just trying to
make the holes look as attractive as possible.
So
hiding car paths,
being clever about how you fill out tree
lines and having them look at in a
in an irregular natural fashion rather than just
a a gun barrel straight line and it
looks like a pond plantation,
you know, all those all those elements. I
think a critical
to to building a golf course, whether it's
a renovation or a new course. So,
Yeah, I would say, And I think you
could confuse people into thinking of course, good
just by making it look attractive, but of
course, you wanna nail the strategy as well.
But, yeah, It's it's it's it's way at
the top of the list for us.
We just did an interesting exercise earlier this
year where we had our,
golf digest course ranking panel lists.
We we surveyed them. We gave them, like,
un amount of holes, and we asked them
to grade the holes and different categories. That...
We're were trying to come up with...
America's hundred greatest holes. You know? Yep. It's
a it's a
impossible task, but it's a fun 1. We
thought it would be fun to do and
see see how it shook out. And so
they they did a great job. Got tons
of feedback. They rated,
they scored each
cole of the candidate holes on a scale
of 1 to 10 and from, like, basically,
aesthetics was 1 of the categories. Originality was
1 and and challenge was 1. And
the criticism that I saw online and and
in social media stuff. I... Just a lot
of your your typical, you know,
haters who who are just gonna
slag on anything that Golf digest does or
any rankings and in for that. They're just
like, oh, this is just a list of,
like, the hundred prettiest holes.
And
well, we asked them to to grade on
that, but 3 other categories too. But I
guess my... I wonder like, is... Is it
a coincidence that that the greatest holds are
also the best looking? You know, you could...
On any given particular hole you could try
to have an argument about it It's it's...
Playa ability, it's strategic merits, you know, like,
is there value and in how you play
it. But
beauty is so is is important. I mean,
there's isn't... That's what
that's part of being great? Is it not?
Yeah. And I think as architects, you would
like to think we've got the ability to
look through visuals. But
Most people vote with their eyes.
I mean, I I had a years ago,
I took a group of superintendents from Australia
to the Uk on like, a study tour.
And,
you know, we we went to Turn brie,
and they thought it was unbelievable, you know.
And then we went to Ka and they're
were like, yeah. Yeah. You know. Yeah. My
leaf favorite golf course.
And, you know, it's got nothing to do
with the the way the holes played strategy.
It wasn't about how, you know, stimulating. It
was mentally.
It was an overcast day.
It's not as dramatic as landscape is somewhere
like Tan.
And they didn't necessarily understand the intricacies of
the whole design and and the strategy. So...
And and nor to most people.
You know, the number of
committee you kind of assume when you talk
to committees and you talk to members you
you almost assume that they don't know what
strategy is.
You have to.
And then the number of times when
you talk about strategy and just in really
simple terms, you maybe take a hold that
they might know and talk about, you know,
why the greens angled in this particular direction
and, you know, it's all, you know,
reward for playing close to the bunker or
or you talk about the 13 it'll go
faster. And it's always fun when you see
kind of a light bulb moment and you
say it go off. And then totally, the
and they're like, I never I never I'd
never thought about that. Yeah.
I have no idea... So,
you know,
Asking the average members to sort... And not
the the panel are average members, but,
Yeah They... They're they're, of course, just gonna
vote with their eyes. They just, you know,
whatever looks good it's gonna be a great
hole. So... Yeah.
Yeah you just you just mentioned it, you
know, talking about members and membership.
I would love to know
how the the process of you working with
Med medina wind.
You know, I asked you earlier about
where were there types of courses that you'd
like to play as a competitor
and
about the, you know, how how professionals look
at the game and how they hit shots
and how they think. Know, Med medina is
always 1 of the great tournament courses in
the United States.
You know, Pj Championships Us opens. You and
it had a very distinct style. It was
it was hit the ball straight or or
or die. You know? It's there were a
lot of places to to shoot a high
score there,
so you've taken this golf course that had
this rich tournament tradition,
and it was probably a little past. It's
it's... It's sell by date
architectural and just kinda where where taste are
now. But really transformed and into something completely
different, including
rearranging holes and and creating new holes. So
I would take us inside these discussions, how
did how did Oc
get the job in the first place, What
was your pitch to the club, and what
was the club looking to do to their
golf... Their famous number 3 golf course.
A lot of questions there, but there's a
lot to there's a lot to talk about.
No, no. That's right. If I forget 1
just
remind me.
Yes. So it was interesting how the job
came about. So,
we were working on Shady oaks. So it
was just very Covid.
And I was there... It was March
20 20.
I wanna say. And
got an email from Steve Cook, the superintendent
there, to see whether they would be interested
in having a look and being on the
shore list.
So, of course, that was, you know,
an amazing email to get
And at the time, it was like oh,
this is great. Well, I'm coming back in
April, and the other guys will be there
then too. So we'll just slip up. Have
a look. Meet meet the club and then,
like, 2 days later, I've got an email
from the government, you have to come home
or you may never come home, you know,
and that was the beginning of it. So
we fortunately, were finished at shady oaks, so
it didn't compromise that job, but
it kind of went from a relation to
you know, just disappointment thinking, you know, this
is gonna pass us by.
But the club were very very, very good,
and we were able to do sort of
Zoom interviews.
We were able to even though we didn't
know the course
intimately.
We were able to put together a, I
guess, a,
a vision, we'll,
for the sort of or as we thought
Madonna should be. And
they've got an amazing,
some amazing historical records or it's some incredible
old plans, a lot of aerials, top graphic
details,
some photos from on side. And so we
were able to really... We spent a lot
of time going through all of that. And
and what we found was that there were
certainly elements of
potential restoration.
No. It's not like Course 3 as a
as a total restoration, but there were elements
of it.
And there were some things that we definitely
wanted to change. We we didn't think the
They used the water particularly well. There were
there were 3 part threes across the water
3 famous. Yeah.
Cross 1
everything. So like identical, and that were next
to each other. Yeah. They did in the
same direction.
So... I I remember being a a kid
and seeing those those holes in magazines, you
know, in in the in the eighties and
thinking oh, cool. That's awesome. But... You know,
yeah. They had they had gotten a little
repetitive and... Yeah. And so there was sort...
That that was something that intrigued this.
They didn't really have a world class sort
of short path 4 that that had a
hole that they built but didn't quite
live up towards.
You know, the original idea, I guess,
and that that was the fifteenth.
And then there were lots of, like, little
things like just the narrow fairway ways the
the shrunk and greens,
a lot of rough between bunker and greens
or edge of Fairway and bunker. They're things
that we kinda take for granted that
you know, and and so the course had
become incredibly difficult for that average golfer.
There, like, on a... It's it's 350
acres is that property.
And there were 23 acres of fairway.
Oh,
to put that into the... Not just nothing.
You.
Mammoth Jones,
1 of the fairway at mammoth Jones is
that size. Yep. Wow, tomorrow of Medina. Even
1 hour. Yeah
So that doesn't sound like like of of
fun course to play day to day and
the
hitting 5 irons off the tl all day.
Yeah. And then Justin Thomas, you know, shot
25 under or 2400. So yeah sort of
it might have had the relay. It had
everything back. It was back to front. You
know, it was very, very hard for the
average golfer and still not that difficult for
for the elite players.
You know, there... There's was a couple of
holes, heavily dog holes with trees on the
corner, but the... Those guys would just hit
it over trees. Mh. And hit a wash
in.
Meanwhile, the average golfer couldn't reach the corner
and just had this impossible second shot behind
a a wall of tree. So there were
a lot of... There in... Number of things
that we could talk about.
And then sort of ag, the greens were
there used by day. They had a lot
of...
They were too small.
Number drainage system was great on the course.
There was there was basically no main drainage
system. So every time it rained, the course
became water.
So a lot of those sort of the
infrastructure
needed upgrading new irrigation. And and so you're
irrespective of whether you were gonna redesign the
golf, of course, you still to spend a
lot of money on it to to improve
it.
And so then through that process, we were
awarded the job at
and then we still weren't able to leave
the country, and that kind of was lingering.
And
the club, again, we're we're very good very
supportive. And so
because we couldn't get there, we thought why
don't we do
each month we'll present 6 holes. And
knowing that we still might make some changes
to those 6 at a time when we
eventually get there. We can at least give
the the the board or sorry, the the
Ad hoc committee, the design committee. We can
give them an insight into what we're thinking.
So they agreed that was a a good
idea.
So we...
Over the course of a few months, we
put together the first 6 holes.
And presented those. And they they liked them.
But
since finding, they they weren't blown away just
because the the first 6 weren't
massive changes. It where we weren't re routing
holes. There were some... There were a couple
of holes. We were sort of restoring some
of the bunker,
better use of short grass, but but the
holes kinda played where they were. So they
were very happy, but
not blown away. And then the the second
6
was a bit more of a change.
And right at the end of the presentation,
we'd we'd been sort of working on this
idea of re routing the last 6.
And with the aim of
and sorry to go off on a
tangent here.
But it all started with the seventeenth hole,
that the path 3 across the water. Yeah.
When you stood on the tea, we kind
of looked right
and saw
this amazing diagonal carryover over water, press across
to the fourteenth t, what was then the
fourteenth t. And it was like, oh, that
looks like an unbelievable short part 4. Like
a cape, reverse cape. Mh.
And we started looking at ways of of
of bringing the water into play
so that... Because at the moment, only bad
plays heated in the water good place maybe
in the water. So we wanted to bring
the water into play for for better plays.
We wanted to eliminate 1 of the... Either
the thirteenth for the seventeenth in so that
there wasn't the the same.
And so in the background, we're were working
on this this... Sort of the this reroute
over the last 6. And at the end
of the presentation where we said, well, there
is something we'd like to just flag with
you because we thought there is no way
of that that there's every chance they're not
gonna wanna do this because the last 6
are kind of the famous... The most famous
6 holes at Med medina.
But we...
Showed it up on the screen,
stepped him through it, and you could tell
that really, really excited. And then they actually
left the the meeting room and went out
on course and walked that 6 holes and
could kind of see what we were trying
to do. Mh.
And came back and said, yeah, we're all
in. Go go ahead and and spend a
bit more time on that. So so we
ended up doing all 18.
So you...
Your original
presentation did not have some of those radical
changes.
No. No. It was more philosophical. We... We
took a few holes. We we certainly,
went into detail on a on a few
holes, but not that last 6. That only
came as we... Once we're awarded the job.
Okay. And and to be honest,
it probably helps that we didn't know the
course that well because I think if you
knew it well, you'd probably less us likely
to come up with... To something's as radical
as that? So we were working more on
the the top demographic plan
and
sort of aerials rather than
you know, we... Because it it the holes
that word didn't perhaps
have the same meaning to us good because
didn't know course as well. Because that makes
sense. Yeah. That is interesting. So
this is 1 of those cases where
the club doesn't realize
how
maybe they... I maybe they don't realize how
badly they wanted things to get really shaken
up. Mean, I'm sure they... When they hired
you, they they knew you were going to
give new greens and bunker widen retrieve removal,
widen things out, you know, change the textures.
I But
deep down,
they knew that the course needed a lot
more work than just that if it was
going to to be the best or the
the most that it could be. Is that
the sense that you you kinda get sometimes
clubs, don't know that they want
a big change like that
Yeah. I I think they recognized that
whilst the club was extremely famous, and the
course was famous.
More so because of the tournaments that are
a hosted.
I think that the I think the people
that knew that they recognized that that perhaps...
That there was
significant improvements that could be made. And so
I think that were quite excited by the
fact that it that we came up with
a fairly bold
bulb plan.
That is interesting to to hear you say
that that the fact that, you know, you
you weren't as familiar with the the club
and the holes
as maybe, you know, obviously, the membership is
that that liberated you into
not feeling that they were sacred in any
way. That you could. You could throw something
out there that was a little bit
off the deep end.
Yeah.
Why and it actually tender.
It was nice because we were still able
to
do a little bit. A restoration. So, like,
the the new eighteenth hole actually plays up
the original eighteenth hole corridor. Mh.
So there was sort of some little in
the and the new fourteenth hole plate for
from where the the the t where the
4 used to play, you know, 50 years
ago or 60 years ago. So they were
kind of still even though I'm a radical
change from we were sort of able to
incorporate
some of the original,
layer.
So,
I think that resonated with people.
They could see that it was,
you know, it was a major change, but
it was still it was still Modern medina,
you know. You said that they had nice
archives and and photographs of the... The course.
I think it was built in the late
twenties right? In 28, maybe it opened.
What did it look like in those old
photographs, You know, it's just it's hard to
envision. When you see the now photographs and
I hope to get there soon, but when
you see photographs of of the holes now
after after you've remodeled them. I mean, it
it looks it looks cool. It doesn't look
like Modern medina because Medina had,
matured into into something else, But I'm sure
that if you look at these photographs that
they had from the the first decade of
its life, you would probably
see similarities to
what's been rebuilt there now?
Yeah. I mean, so Tom Bend
under originally, and it started out as 9
holes, and they got expect... Ended to 18.
Think of... It started out as the ladies
course, a 9 hole ladies course, and then
expanded it to 18 and You know, some
of the things we saw on the old
aerials,
wider fairway, a lot more fairway back towards
the tea. Right.
So the the fairway would have been 30
or 40 percent bigger than what they had
become.
Interestingly, there was some...
There was some amazingly shaped bunker, and we
could never...
Our knowledge of Tom Bend. We hadn't haven't
seen band courses that had these really organic
what they looked like sort of something that
Till has would build.
Really interesting shaped bunker. And so
you know, there were 2 things that we
were can to restore. So the idea of
having wider fairway ways more fell back towards
the tea.
And more sort of organically interesting shaped
bunker
was something that they used to have.
So it was kind of easy to to
suggest those, be rein incorporated.
There were less trees.
It was still a tree line golf course,
but a lot of the a lot of
the trees were removed on the corners of
the dog leg were,
were planted in the, I wanna say the
the forties fifties and sixties.
So
we kind of opened the course up and
got rid of a lot of the exotic
and took it back to to really just
the the stand of oak trees that you
see. So
that the top end of the course is
more of like an Oaks Savannah, which is
what it was originally. So it was oaks
on the tops of the hills and then
sort of prairie grasses if you're like or
we've we've used F,
but it it has kind of recaptured the
look of what that land would have been
like prior to the golf course being there.
Because at that time, when the club was
founded, it was...
I mean, it's still... It's it's outside of
Chicago, but I I would imagine that would
have been... The country.
I've... Yeah. I mean, the holes... You know,
where where we've added the fence
down the boundary of of sort of 5,
6 and 7.
You know, there were no roads and no
houses around those holes. So,
you know, 1 of the reasons for we
suggested put bringing back a,
an out of bounds fence essentially
was that that was the way those holes
were originally.
There there was a fence that there and
it was very close to the grain. It
was actually was part of the design of
the hole. But,
you know, 80 years later, you couldn't do
that because there were... You know, just roads
of houses and and cars and roads all
around it. So... Yeah. Yeah. It's funny that
that the a course that,
and there were probably other examples, but, of
course that that began life as, you know,
out in the countryside, and, I don't know
if it was farmland around it or or
what, but
became sort of like,
the... 1 of the most iconic Parkland
courses, you know, you would think it was
in the middle of us of a densely
populated city that had you know, 80 years
of mature trees growing on it. But that
was all that was all added later and
it just the the the course had become
something different than
has many courses do
since it since Ben,
designed it.
Yeah.
By the way, like, is there another architect
that was as prolific as Ben, yet, we
know kinda so little about what... He was
doo Hanger Building. I don't...
I never heard anybody. I've never heard of
of a Tom Bend
expert. I'm sure there are people who. No.
No. I just... See you everything I read
though, you know, it talks about him being
the Johnny Apple state of
course. Yeah. 18 stakes on a Sunday...
Yeah. Yeah. And I think he started building
courses in the early 19 hundreds and yet
there he is still
almost 30 years later and working in Chicago.
So I mean, it's... It's a hell of
a long career. But, you know, he didn't
to my knowledge he didn't leave
sketches or blueprints or much behind.
It's No. If... I mean there's a couple
of sort of... Yeah. There's some of the
plans that buy Bend albert, but, but there
there's nothing else.
So
So, you know, Med medina, I'm sure still
has in... Every intention they're hosting a president's
cup... Every intention of continuing to be
a stall art. Tournament course for great players.
I'm sure that that's gotta be in the
in the Dna of of the club mentality.
Are you curious to see how
elite players will handle
your stuff.
Oh, yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. I understand. Jeff Jeff
was very knowledgeable about that and and and
with your background too, but, you know, until
until you see it in action, that's gotta
be... You know, you gotta be kind of
kinda curious as to see how it fares.
Yeah. And look, that was and that was
certainly part of the
brief, you know, that
they
still plan on hosting major events, and
it needs to be a relevant test for
for the best golfers in the world. So
yeah. No. We're definitely interested to see to
see that. I mean,
you can never... The weather is the is
the unknown factor there. You know, if if
if you had a a big store,
it's important the course is sort of firm
and fast, particularly the green approaches and the
greens. And so now they've actually got, you
know, the infrastructure in place to
to produce sort of consistently firmer services. But,
of course, if you had a,
2 inch storm the night before the first
round.
There's only so much you can do. Exactly.
Yeah.
And that's the... That that is always the
challenge, but Certainly, the greens, the pitch of
the greens, the contouring of the greens, the
amount of shore grass around the greens.
You know, if if it's if it's fiery,
it'll be a sn test. So absolutely. I
mean, it's the same length, it's it's probably
a past 70.
In the under tournament condition, 70 or 71.
So it's pretty strong. That's it's it's about
7600 yards, 7 7 06:50
and power 70 or 71.
But I think it's more that it's it's
the shots of the green,
that'll be very different from what they've experienced
in the past, You know, with with balls,
you know, anything offline and we'll tend to
get rejected rather than just plop and and
stop or finishing the primary rough next to
the grain where it's a relatively easy chip.
Yeah. Is that where you land?
Basically when you're considering
how a of course will handle elite play
is is firm is the main defense, and
you can't control wind, but, you know, wind
and wind and hard surfaces.
It really is because you can you can
do.
You know, it doesn't matter
can talk about angles and pitch of greens
and, you know,
the way you bunker the hole, but at
the end of the day, if the conditions
are soft. Off. Those guys are so good
that it doesn't matter if they're out of
position. If they've got an ado iron into
the green, they're they're gonna hold the. They're
gonna hold the grain.
Off But that's why... I think that's why
the sand belt still is so relevant. I
mean,
tiger Kingston heath in 20,
19? I think, 20 18, 20 19. Yeah.
I mean, the winning score there was about
4 day under. It wasn't, you know, it
wasn't particularly windy that week.
Grains firm, and that was the k. Say
you've re...
It's it's all about firm. So... Yeah.
Well, the the members are beginning just now
to play the course. Have have you gotten
any initial feedback or...
Yeah. I was there at the opening.
So look we get on Saturday.
So it was terrific. It was a great
day.
Course looks fantastic.
I played,
which was fun too. So it was 1
of my rounds. How much 12?
Anna a cat at Getty as well there.
You go? Yeah.
Is it she to play your own courses
for the first time?
Yeah. Yep. Yep. It is. But you usually
spend so much time out there.
It's rare that you're sort of surprised or
shot. Because if you... If you if you're
doing a job, and you'd... And you know,
your numbers and you know, how far everything
is. It's not like you get to a
certain hole and go. Oh, that's, you know,
that going a lot further than I imagined.
Or... Yeah.
But now it was it was nice playing
with the play with 3 members that were
sort of mid handicap. Like, 14 15 16.
The nice thing was that they they didn't
get beaten up. You know, that they played
off the
the properties that they should be playing off.
But, you know, 1 of the criticisms of
the old course we had was that it
was just so hard. For the average golfer,
and they, you know, they got around. It
was nice to see, and though they're were
able to hit fairway ways.
You know, they still... It it was challenging,
but they weren't searching for lost balls in
the first q or...
So that was kind of as
that was as satisfying as anything, really It's
seeing... And and seeing there, seeing how much
they enjoy it.
I got I heard... I got a great
text from
the greens chairman from a
a member that didn't vote for it. And
he said, he said something like,
he said, I didn't read any... Any updates.
So I didn't go on any course to
tours. I didn't watch any of the the
videos. I just wanted to hate it.
And
and he said, I've just come off the
golf course tours it was unbelievable. It's like,
you don't care about and people it, you
know, with...
That's good.
Breaks they're at it. But... Yeah, The people
that didn't want it to happen. I actually
think it's really good that that's, you know.
Got. Yeah. I don't think you can do
better than that. That's... Yeah. That's the highest
praise. That's the.
So was good. Yeah. That's really good. It's
just now. It's just it's just time now
just getting a little firmer and quicker and
faster and There's like a new car. I
mean, this the serpent superintendent I wanna see
what it's capable of and Yep. I'm sure
it would get into fall.
And the grass just gets a bit more
mature. They'll he'll start seeing how fast they
can get get things.
We'll we'll wrap up your, Mike, but... 1
of the things that's attention interesting to me
is is, I... I'm really curious to see
how it's received by
people outside the club. You know, Med medina
was, in know our rankings.
Was I think it was once inside the
top 20 perhaps. So it was it was
a very...
Respected. You know, and it's just it's just
kind of been sliding, sliding backwards, and I
think it was in the nineties, still inside
the top 100, which is great. But
so it's... It'll be very
I'm curious to see once... How where it
pops up the next time we do our
hundred greatest rankings.
Yeah. Does this give it a shot in
the arm... I mean, it's a completely different
golf course. So it's gotta every
opportunity to to, you know, come in come
in high and hot or
so I'm curious to... I'm curious to see
that very much. Should be a great story
if Mode medina
re is res resurgence in our rankings.
Yeah. Absolutely. Just on that note, because we,
you know and I had been emailing recently
about... Some of the courses that you work
with that are in our world's 100 greatest.
We're... What's your viewpoint on hundred greatest courses
rankings and that that whole endeavor.
Do you... Does it do anything for you
personally or professionally? Does it matter to you?
Do you think it's it's Bs?
I'm just... I'm curious to to get it
outsider opinion.
No. III think it's...
I enjoy reading them.
I, you know, there's or you could...
You're never gonna create the perfect list. Of
course, there's always gonna be people gonna argue
over. You know, 1 should be higher than
now. I've never I've never seen consensus over
a rankings.
No. It's not Bs at all. III think
I I think they're I mean, how else
do you measure that they're never gonna be
perfect, but generally speaking, I think the rankings.
If you look at them as sort of
in broad categories, not not the... If you
look at sort of the top 10
if you look at the instead of
in groups of 10, Say. Yeah.
They're always right.
Invariably with that
and some magazines may not get it right.
I'm sure golf I just is right. But
but, yeah, It's it's the it's the it's
the... When you're trying to rank 1 versus
the other, particularly if they're on opposite sides
the globe. I mean, that gets really tricky.
But generally speaking, I think these days,
they're a pretty good measure. And and, yeah,
it's
an architect and,
for our clubs, I mean, you know, it's
a,
I'm sure Medina will be over the moon
if if we can sort of show it
on the uptick. And and, yeah, it comes
in it places is higher. So, yeah, It's
still a it's still very important. Yep. I
deal with a lot of clubs that that
profess that they don't care. They don't... You
know, they don't wanna play the game, but
then when they see their... Their... That number
keep getting higher next to their name.
Usually something happens if club members are, you
know, there... It's time to regroup and come
up with a new strategy.
I think most people care. I mean, who
doesn't wanna see their course.
Right. Kylie. Yeah. Nobody wants to be perceived
as as losing their their fast ball. No.
No. No.
Here's a question. III always close out with
I ask architects.
This question, what is the best
or your favorite modern golf course?
So.
Fry head?
Appalachian. Yeah. What's what what's... What do you
like about? Agrees? It's a great place. Where
do you like about it?
It's funny like
I remember Ashley and I in in the
old company we used to work for
you know, 20 years ago,
sort of
fry head was on the front cover of
a golf architecture magazine.
And back then, we were doing little
renovation projects
usually within 20 or 30 miles of
the office, you know? Dreaming of the day
where
we might get an opportunity to do. Something
called. Yeah. You know, major redesign or or
wow, you know, imagine we got to build
a new golf course or, you know, not
even thinking of the be on the other
side of the world, you know, building in
America. And and so... And I remember when
the fries head cover came out and
we'd I was fascinated by
seeing that photo,
you know, love Bill and ben's work
that I that I'd seen the the work
I'd seen. And then when we finally got
to get there. I was just... I think
I was just blown away by
by the the scale,
the the journey, that You know, the the
basically the routing.
And then and then the detail, I think
they just nailed the... You talk about aesthetics.
So I think, I, I'm to see a,
and ugly looking core or golf course. I
think they spend... They're very good at at
getting the balance right
between aesthetics and and strategy and interest,
So they've always been, you know, heroes of
ours.
And, yeah. So I guess, I don't know
getting to see that golf course.
We're we're special and I just thought that,
yeah, the quality of the grain complexes
and and the detail the the the little
bean towels I just thought they nailed. So
sort of be every aspect. III
was blown away with and, you know, that
was during an era of
you know, everyone was building more and more
en insulating greens and everyone was... It's almost
felt like everyone was trying to do each
other. You know, you know,
1 course had un grand, I'm gonna show
you. I'm gonna make them more un lady.
And I I've always liked Dylan and Ben
that they...
Well I guess, the more so. But
they're un greens, but there... There's always restraint
shown. You know, there there's enough flat areas
or some of the creases are small, you
know, you might get the odd bulb contour,
but is it... But they seem to nail
that balance very well,
and and and the green cop is at
Fry head were particularly good. So... So Whole
range of reasons, Really. But... Yeah, that's that's
probably my favorite modern design.
This
Talking to talking about routing golf courses reminded
me of an art exhibit I saw earlier
this year at the Whitney in New York.
It's centered around an artist to began experimenting
in the 19 sixties and seventies with using
artificial intelligence to create drawings and prints.
He made a mechanism that could interpret a
series of computerized instructions to draw rather lovely
images on paper using markers and other implements.
The arms movements were very deliberate and repetitive,
and the painting might take hours to make.
But on 1 wall, there were a series
of early versions of the sketches the arm
making. Which were just kind of squiggly concentric
lines.
They had a resemblance to top graphical maps
and occurred to me then that we're out
of place now,
where we could feed a map of a
real property into a computer, and Ai would
be able to read it and route an
infinite number of 18 hole courses over it.
You could give it further instructions such as
minimizing the green tea distances, eliminating claims or
dissent beyond certain elevations.
Make it maximize long range views, create certain
par values,
return or don't return to nines and so
on, and the intelligence could in theory produce
an ideal routing.
You could even go a step further and
feed an information about certain design styles,
Links sc for instance, or appropriate to this
conversation, Sand Be off or Bunker styles or
the concepts of Seth rain or Robert Trent
jones or Old Tom Morris.
Tom Do with Brian Zag has been experimenting
with using Lidar
computers and Gps mapping to perfectly replicate existing
or formally existing holes at Toledo and the
new Sand glass, course in Florida.
Ai is the next step in the evolution
of using technology to create golf courses.
It may be just a matter of time.
Before developers and clubs are going to bypass
architects altogether and let Ai design their courses.
On that note, thanks to Mike c for
a lovely conversation to turn it back to
a a more pleasant topic.
If you're not washing your laundry in cold
water, what are you waiting for? There's no
downside, your clothes will be just as clean
and the upside in the near and long
term is reduced energy bills and a small
impact on resource consumption.
All you have to do is push a
button. What could be easier than that to
help make a difference in your bank account
and the environment.
I hope you enjoyed this episode. Thanks for
listening. Thanks to the Sun dogs for the
intro music and until we have a chance
to do this again.
Adios.