Immigration is very different than it was say
even 10 years ago. There's more coming from
Asia, China in India, both Central and South
America.
And then, you know, Africa as well. So
it is becoming, you know, more global and
than it was...
We saw a 65 percent increase, and the
number of
applications certified of 5 to 4 workers for
H28 workers to come and work in the
farming communities,
And not only that, 2 thirds of the
counties
in the country, Had employers requesting for H
2 workers.
And a lot of times we talk about
plants, and and that's important, but, you know,
dairy farmers, cattle farmers, spot farmers also have
shortages,
And dairy farmers especially have a lot of
shortages in labor, and we do need to
be thinking about programs that can help in
their labor shortages as well.
It's time for conversations about our food and
how it's grown on farm to table talk
with your host, Roger Lawson.
Well, farm to table
means that getting the food from the farm
to the table. It we need a lot
of help. Sometimes you don't have all the
help you need.
It labor. And there's so many issues related
to labor. There's
issues related to
certainly
immigration they overlap
we're gonna cover a lot of this ground
today because I I think I... To myself,
when I go at this time of the
year, and I'm trying to pick up stone
fruit.
Supermarkets because it's nice and fresh.
But how it ended up getting to the
store in the first place who was helping
getting that product there
you you see those things, but you don't
pause to think about them. Month today, we're
gonna pause to think about them. We're gonna
we're gonna talk about that a little bit,
And I'm... Happy to welcome. Steve Hubbard. And
he's from the American
immigration Council
that's based in Washington, Dc, but
We're gonna find out from Steve. He's not
personally living in Washington, Dc in Brooklyn now,
but he's in Iowa farm boy too.
So What a combination, Steve. Welcome to farm
to table talk. Yeah. Well, thank you for
having me.
Boy, it's Steve, We got so many things.
I'm looking forward to. Talking about. And
and and 1 of them that I'm gonna
keep drifting back to a little bit is
that, you grew up in farm country in
in Iowa
and now you're in Brooklyn.
That's,
they have to really work to think what
they have in common of impact.
Well, other than the fact, I think there's
an appreciation in both cases about
about food production and how foods produced and
And so you get AAA very, very different
perspective between
Brooklyn and and the Iowa. So
just like I do, different from growing up
on a Farm in Illinois here I'm in
Sacramento, California right now too. But
where I would like to start,
Is this organization explaining a little bit more?
What what is the American immigration council?
So we're in advocacy or...
Organization for
immigration and immigrants.
We work... We have a legal team, Of
course that looks at,
you know,
if issues of legality and immigration, of course,
they're very busy right now because immigration is
a very
important topic in a very important discussion that
people are having.
We also have a policy center that looks
at policy
both at the national level, but most importantly
at the state and local level. We see
a lot of activity, I'm happening at the
state and local,
you know, looking at immigrant and immigration. And
then we have a research,
group, which I'm a part of, of course,
That looks at
immigration, I know wide variety of ways and
how immigrants give back to the country.
A lot of times we look at economic.
Research and how
it's important for immigrants in our workforce and
our labor workforce,
and how they contribute to our our tax
revenue.
And then also looking at issues at the
border and things like that. We we help,
our teams
solve and look at some of those issues
at we, you know, discuss discussion about immigration
and helping people understand,
what are some of the issues
impacting immigration and how important immigrants are to
our,
society into our communities.
You know, there's so many ways to jump
into this, but 1 I just have to
mention, I think, when we talk about Farm
table and we're talk about about agriculture.
Farmers need a lot of help. You need
people to help. It's certainly, like, the times
of the year or too when there are
some crops such as.
Peaches in Georgia and some other areas that
just not enough local help.
And so there's programs that I think we
can talk about like the h 2 way,
and they may have... There may be other
acronyms right now. It seems like there... There's
always some new acronym to relate to how
to how we can get help. And I've
talked to farms before that are
never thought they would have to be getting
help, from other places and they have. And
I've just on a a, in a meeting
with a conference where somebody who's projecting
labor needs
and and how we are not gonna have
enough people to help really kind of around
the world, and they were projecting and not
that far into the future.
Of how
Africa would become a the major source
of
programs like H 2 and others to bring
bring workers over to help harvest some of
the crops.
Mh. And it's kind of a race on
that front because there's also robotics being developed
So be keep hoping that they can find
ways you can mechanically do some of these
things, but it's not here yet. It's
it's still coming. And then you've got... So
then you've got all the the normal ways
that maybe your family certainly mine came in
and
got off a boat from Europe and stood
in line and found a way to get
to Iowa, and Illinois and other places. And
and then you've got
what everybody's focusing on now, crowds
coming across the border.
At very controversial, it's... You know, and, you
know, I don't have to be the 1
to break the news to the listeners it's
controversial.
But that broad broad spectrum,
your organization touches a little bit of all
of that, I guess.
Yeah. We look at that.
You know, we look at a different aspects
of immigration, we, for instance, every year do
a a report on the Fortune 500. And
we look at companies
that were started by,
immigrants or children of immigrants and we find
that usually about 45 percent, of Fortune 500
companies were actually started by immigrants or or
children of immigrants.
So... There's that ancestry part that we we
talk about
and then we also talk about, you know,
how important both,
people who come here on Visas like, you
know, temporary visas like h 2, which is
specifically for agriculture.
And, you know, how that has impact
agriculture in the industry, you And then we
also talk about, you know,
immigrants who are here that are undocumented. And
you know, they... Are here, but they still
contribute a lot to the economy,
and are still important to our labor force.
And and so, you know, when we have
discussions
about immigration. We we wanna make sure people
know that, you know, they do contribute to
our tax base. They do
many come here at working age. So they
are working in many ways. And and and
many also start their own business,
Yeah. So it's different economic aspects that we
want to make sure people understand and know
about immigrants in the many different ways that
they may have come here.
I just got back from a trip back
to the East Coast went from California
to New York and Massachusetts. And
and I had, I know, how many Uber
rides I had,
Mh.
Every single driver I had. I mean, even
our own airport, was it hear from somewhere
else.
And
you know, it's that's something that's that's kinda
heart about that. And that you have that
personal experience with it too.
It's also a little bit frustrating because some
are kind of pushing the envelope to try
to get into it and they don't speak
English at all. I had 1 of those,
and I had to help them
quite a bit. And I thought, you know
what? I'm I'm glad you're getting this opportunity,
but
they probably get you a little more help
with the language. So there aren't those little
rough edges trying to get up to speed.
But even around here, I see places that
our people can come in and they're learning...
They're learning English. They're getting kids to learn
English. They're doing...
And, you know, it's... So again, it's there's
a real positive vibe
to to a a lot of that.
You know, I live in in Brooklyn, New
York, And and we have a lot of
immigrants here, of course,
just because New york City is a city
of immigrants. Sure.
And 1 of the things I enjoy is
that,
the restaurants in the food, Yeah culturally so
many different types of the food.
And it makes it very interesting to to
try different things, everything from, you know, Ethiopian
to
you know, Lebanese food to... Just, you know,
you name it, different types of culture cultures
and and the restaurants that are here and
you get to try different things. And it
does make a a very rich experience
And very much, you know, so much, like
the rest of the country, you know, there
there is that opportunity where in many different
cities in many different communities,
across the country where they have no great
food. Oh, yeah. Yeah. We had... Actually, my
wife and I just before Did this podcast.
We just came back from a 5 mile
walk.
To
a coffee shop that we found that is
in a medical center by a hospital that's
a nice nice walk away and
and
the lady that that runs it her family
is from from India,
and she has a a recipe for a
masala
that uses chai.
And I get the Chai Latte masala, and
she makes it extra spicy for me.
And it's been passed down from generations generations
and like. Oh, great is, I could walk
to someplace and get something like that that
has this spicy great story and someone in
their family that's
that's sharing it. And and you're right, just...
You find these discoveries all over. And as
they come in, they bring that interesting cuisine
and
probably a few places have as much variety
as you do in Brooklyn. You, that's... I
I get it. Mh But but, I guess
in in looking at this broad broad picture
and all the way that people are coming
in
to the to the United States.
I mean, I can see 1 role for
an organization like yours of kind of, like,
see how it happens perhaps in your... And
what the progress is or what the issues
are.
But then is there a policy stage
where where you identify things that need to
be? Improve or changed or made stricter or
looser or something like that that you're able
to
proposed
regulations or talk to members of Congress about
changing laws to be able to
affect that flow
into the country.
Yeah. So we do have a policy team,
and and I'm part of the research team.
So
I don't talk a lot about policy because
I let my policy folks to talk about
policy, but certainly, they are often
talking with
legislators both and we think of that nationally,
and we certainly we were part of that
conversation, and and we do and we provide
data and discuss
and and look at different aspects of of
policy and how that can impact immigration. But
a lot also happens at the state and
local level
you know, I think at the national level,
we're sort of frozen
in discussion.
And and I think we see more so
discussions at the state and local level about,
you know, where are places where they need
workers,
and how can immigrants
you know, help
in in supplying those workers? You know, I
know places in Iowa,
where they need workers, You know, They they
have industry and they're just saying, you know,
we just don't have the number of workers
here. And how can we attract and and
bring people
to be a part of that, I'd be
part of the the community.
And and so I think, you know, we
see that the state and local level, and
we try to option help,
you know, at the state and local level
provide data. You know, we use a lot
of information what's... Called the American Community survey.
It's run by the Us census. They run
it every year. And we give them statistics
about, you know, what their community makeup looks
like and what, you know, who
what their
workforce looks like and things like that. And
so we try to help in that conversation
and try to, help at the local level
and state level and then, of course, at
the national level as well.
You know, when we talk about these sorts
of things. Some people look at the news
of how many are coming across the border,
and that's obviously
controversial it was because... There's a stage where,
some people say, well, we do need people,
but we don't need that many or we
we want them to come the right way,
and they're they may be getting
subsidize. There's all these issues related to it.
But there's also
1 central issue that comes up often to
places like these areas you were talking about
in iowa. It's kinda like, well, wait a
minute then. There probably be some of these
people who can come up and take these
jobs that nobody else are taking.
Out are are are you able to
kind of objectively
observe those kind of facts?
And and
so the people can say, well, yeah know,
maybe that's true, You know,
why aren't if we've got so many more
people than,
some think we can we can absorb here
in this country. Why aren't they making it
in to the to the parts of the
of this they they can't get people to
work in the pan plant or can't get
people to go to the the peach orchard.
Mh.
Yeah. You know, I don't know I have
a lot of of,
specifics on on how
that can be done,
but I will say there are programs
that we talk about with, like, the H2A,
temporary Visa program,
where
and these are 4 farm workers to come
in
and say,
when we looked at the data to say,
hey, we need workers
to be here
and to work in our fields to harvest
the field, you know, to
crop.
And and and we tend to look in...
That's 1 of the reasons why we did
this recent... Report on the H 2, is
to look at the demand? And where is
that at? And and why is that and
why
you know, what what can we do to
help
try to improve the H 2 program and
looking at the data.
And, you know, like I said, I try
to help get people the data and to
try to show things and try to tell
the story with that data. And then have
people have a discussion and to say, okay,
look at. You know, there's parts of the
Southern California and Southern
Arizona that, you know, really grew Texas
really grew in demand for H 2, You
know, Southern Florida.
I and and then also in in parts
of Western
Michigan,
there orchard there that were... Seem to have
increase in demand for H 2 workers.
And so if it gives us a little
bit of understanding, when we work with local
communities to say, it you know,
there's been demand for workers to come here.
1 of the things about the report,
that I've been talking about is we looked
at demand
at at this report.
And
it it doesn't really necessarily they actually come
here because there's so much but it's such
a long process.
Sure. To get temporary
workers here.
You first have to go through the Department
of labor. Which is where my data comes
from is from the Department of labor.
But it also has to be approved by
United States, you know, customs and immigration services,
and even, you know, at the embassy level,
approving workers to come through. So there's a
very long process to kinda get people through
to come here to work.
And
what we wanted to show the demand first,
how it get an understanding of where us
workers are needed across the country.
Was that the principal
goal of this of this research?
The principal goal is yes to show the
location, but also to show the demand
the of the... What was the demand. And
so, we we looked at 5 years
from, we compared 20 17 to 20 22,
and
we saw a 65
percent increase. And the number of
applications
for, you know, for
certified of... To for workers for inch 2
8 workers to come and work in the
farm
farming communities.
And not only that
just that number. So, you know, in 20
17, it was about 225000,
and then it increased about 370000.
And that's quite a jump.
But also, we looked at where in the
country and
if you look at... You know, when you
look at 20 17 to 20
23...
20 22,
we're now,
open, employers in 2 thirds of the counties
in the United States have requested
H 2 workers. And so it didn't even,
you know, necessarily grow. It grew 35 percent
from the number of counties
from 20 17 to 20 22.
Which was a big demand, just not in
the numbers, but also geographically.
Blocked and increased. Yeah. Well, and
2 thirds of the counties in the in
in the country? Yes. 2 thirds of the
counties
in the country,
had employers requesting for H 2 workers?
Wow That's that's...
That is that is a a lot.
So
I mean, we get that number to start
with as it,
statewide or county,
labor departments or government
agencies.
Where people
were people filing and and
questions? Is that the original source of this?
So,
no. The source of the data is actually
employers who fill it up, you know, fill
out Okay.
Application. Now there's we're finding about 44 percent
of those applications come from farm labor contractors.
So.
Right. And so these are contractors that help
farmers, find labor,
and they, you know, will help use the
H 2 program
and fill out the applications to help farmers
find from I'm fine labor. But it could
also be an individual farmer or, you know,
a corporate,
what have you? So what are some of
the theories that that that it's growing so
much?
That that there's been such an increase in
demand for, you know, for this kind of
help. Well, part of it, I think,
we're finding...
That probably there's less... That that that we
find less,
so we've always had a lot of a
large immigration, immigrant,
crop production workers.
And I think what we're finding is that,
fewer younger,
immigrant,
farm workers
are going into,
you know, going into farming, going into crop
production.
And I know this crossed in the Us
born population as well that is less
Younger people, but it's really
very high in the
in the immigration population. So we looked at
the average age of the immigrant population, and
it rose from 37.2
in 2006.
Was the average age of the immigrant crop
production worker, and now it is 41 point...
It's 41.6
or nearly 42
years of old. So it's like a 5
and a half year difference in at in
an average. I work with statistics a lot,
and that's a very significant bump.
And in your average age. And so we're
finding that the immigrant farm workers is becoming
much more, you know, is is much older
And
so that is, I think we're we're finding
that a lot of
immigrants are not going so much into.
The
labor force
and they're needing more H 2 workers to
come in. More workers from this standpoint.
Okay. So it's gonna fill in... It's kind
of filling a gap.
Yeah. So just the sheer numbers of immigration
doesn't necessarily mean that you're covering all the
ground of things that are some of the
basic agricultural
skills and and and so forth too.
And and a lot of that work I
would gather is not necessarily 12 month work
either, I mean, it's very seasonal I would
suspect suspect. It is very seasonal.
I will say, the 1 of the things
we do notice, so a sort of a...
Weakness of the H hoa program is that
they are limited in the number of months
that they can work. And I believe it's
either the 9 or 10 months. I don't
know exactly what the number is. But
there there is an argument to say, could
we could, you know, H hoa workers work
at a longer, you know, period?
For the farmer because there are times after
the crop is, you know, produced they need
help also with managing the farm or prepare
for the next season and and and things
like that.
So...
And it kinda depends on what crop you're
producing as well in many ways.
Yeah. Perfect. Yeah. We're offering that. And another
answer to your question is that we see
a lot... The increases that we've seen
all across the different industries within agriculture.
But 1 of the largest areas has been
in the fruit and vegetable
area.
Along that southern border
along,
you know, Southern California,
Arizona, and in Texas and in Florida,
has seen a lot of that increase.
But in other parts of of the country
have seen increases as well.
Yeah. That's really interesting.
You know, the other thing, I I think
I've heard before that immigration from Mexico has
actually been down for several years.
Yeah. And so, so along that border,
and and couple reasons, but for
people that are Mexican Mexican citizens.
There's more to do there. Yeah. And and
so they don't need to come... So what
seems to be a distortion.
And when people are looking at the immigration,
a lot coming across the border aren't from
Mexico. They're walking right through Mexico. Because they've...
And they're coming from different places around the
world and they're coming in through the border
of there, But it's not really Mexicans. And
and and that's where You know, when you
say that, I could see, well, maybe we've
got dependent for people that were coming across
and doing Some work going back across the
border back and forth a little bit.
But
there's no reason to do that now because
you've got all these
plants and factories that are assembling and it's
and it's might even be more of that
coming on because...
Because now when we're sourcing closer to the
states, if we're not in the states
instead of having a long boat from China
to come here. They can put them together
in Mexico and just, you know, come across
the the border would finished goods. So there's
lots of job up to lots of job
opportunities there for people that are citizens of
Mexico.
Yes. That's right. The... There was a recent
article in the Washington post about that that...
You know, Mexico
has,
you know, has their own agriculture industry, and,
yeah. Looking for workers, and they have labor
shortages just like we do. And and so
they have a lot of of they're trying
to pull people in as well.
And so they're
you know, they're probably is less need. And
we do see there has been a decrease.
It's... You know, Mexico is still... We we
still see people,
I integrating from mix Mexico that that does
happen, but it's not as much as what
we normally have seen in the past. It
it has been, you, slightly decreasing. And then
we've also seen and we've done another study
where some, you know, Mexican immigrants have gone
back to Mexico, you know? Yeah So. Sure.
And
yeah.
We... Immigration is very different. Than it was
say even 10 years ago. You know, you're
right. There's more coming from Asia, China in
India, that is, you know,
you know, 2 countries that have increased in
immigration, as well as Central and South America.
And then, you know, Africa as well. So
it is becoming
a little, you know, more global and than
it was,
say 10:15 years ago. Well, on the demographics
when you start looking at? Size of the
families and the and
areas of the world that aren't even replacing
their own population and it's their population the
gonna be declining 1 area that doesn't seem
to be having Mad is Africa. And so
when you start looking ahead the next 15,
20 years as we're
gonna young people are that can work. That's
gonna be that's gonna be different. But... Mainly,
that's that's that's intriguing.
So that explains part of that increased demand
in 2.
How do they come up with these... Tricky
names, like H2A,
you know, I don't, you know, government acronyms,
there must be a school they go to
and say, look, we're up to the letter
h now. And
So what does... What does it stand for?
You know, I do not know what H
2 stands for I'm working.
I will say that, you know, I'm doing
report now and H2B0,
of, course. Of course, that how do they
come up with that? These... They genius.
You, I don't know history of it.
Workers
are are a lot of times they're more
in landscaping.
They're seasonal
usually tied not always, but tied to
you know, to... Tourism to
other places that need
workers
temporarily,
I did a really interesting report for the
state of Colorado
where, you know, they have h 2 workers
because they have
farm workers that they need.
For the mini
crops that Colorado produces. And then and then
I a different map for the H 2.
And the H 2 we're kind out around
the edges of the mountains, and then the
H2B,
were weren't, you know, we're coming in
for
the Ski resorts. And so
the Rocky Mountains,
they... That's where they were, you know, going
into. So it's really interesting to do that
comparison in the state between. Are you saying
d as in dog or b as in
boy. B as in boy, H2B0,
of course. Of course. I mean, I was
jumping away I had.
I'm looking looking down the road. I'm ready
to do research and project that there is
a d in the future.
But, must they,
I don't know 1, but there could be.
I know, I think we should make a
requirement that, you know, you should have certain
amount of marketers that have branding experience So...
And the and the bureaucracy. So they don't
have to just go through all the letters
and numbers. But still,
it's it's it's intriguing, and and
Back to the back to the H2A,
you, I've talked to somebody that I had
a guest, actually his name is Blake Hurst
and Missouri. He used to be the president
of the Missouri Farm bureau.
And he's got a greenhouse and his family
as a corn soybeans in Missouri.
And
they just couldn't get help anymore. And it's
a lot of it was coming to head
around the time of the pandemic. And so
I think the wind was at high point
there. And then
they just get people back, and they had
like had for years, they could get people
that that, well, this is good as part
time work. They could work in the greenhouse,
and he just needed a couple. And He
got so desperate. He couldn't get anybody to
come out and work,
and he... So he started
exploring the 2. And if I think, now,
correct me.
But
once he kinda went through all the paperwork
and so forth and what he was going
to need,
I think it involved, like, you know, plane
ticket,
commitment to make arrangements for housing,
must be some sort of income provisions and
so forth.
And
So it it was a little more than
he was used to to doing,
but he finally ended up getting 2 people
from I don't remember what country,
And and and they were very nice. I
mean, their language had some issues, but they
kinda of figure out a way to communicate.
And
and but I do think too. It was
a... It was only, like, 9 months and
they had to go home,
at least for a while, and they might
be able to get them back another year.
This...
Now fill the blanks. That was a pretty
sketchy description, but it but I remember his
experience that it...
He never thought he would be doing this,
you know, as a small farm in Missouri.
And then he he needed to and his
experience is mostly positive.
But, you know, I had some challenges in
learning how to do it.
Mh.
Yeah. III
have a similar... Sort of story about with
my father, who I mentioned
to earlier,
that he's a a country bat, a country
veterinarian and sort
in
in Iowa, and he talks about several farmers
he knows
that needed help
in, you know, different areas, 1 I think
was in hog hog production and that they
have used h 2 workers.
And and I do think that's increasing more
so more farmers are looking at the option
of using the H hoa program.
To get workers that they need.
Mh.
But it's a it's a learning curve. I
mean, when I was when I was a
a young boy. We've got enough bigger in
our farm. We were gonna need everybody head
that was bigger at a certain size. You
had a hired man.
Now on Hindsight, and it could have been
an higher any gender, but it was always,
you know, a higher men, and you had
you had a house and a and a
beef and and access to a pickup truck
and and and so forth. Because you just
couldn't do it with your own family members.
You needed a little... Extra help. And so
they could live
in a in a place down the road,
and
and we had but then pretty soon,
everybody that would do that kind of job
could go
get a job caterpillar instead.
And so you started drifting a field and
we weren't really in back in the corn
belt then looking at labor contractors per s,
but you were looking to the fringe of
the corn belt. So there were people that
you could you'd somehow make a contacting in
Kentucky
or that
would move up and and work until they
heard about the factory and then they left
too. So
Yeah. Then we started making really great big
tractors.
Yes.
Changed farming me a lot. That is... Yeah.
Yeah. No. That's it's a... And and the
the 1 thing that technology not come to
the rescue or some of these people get
though is that... That some of the harvesting
technology. They still haven't got robots down that
do a great job of picking and strawberries
or peaches.
Yeah. And and so there were some things
like that. They've even... They might try to
apply the technology to can. So it's an
it's an interesting process.
That we're that we're going through. As you
do the research, you've
identified... Are there any other trends that you're
you
you sense
that is is going to be
feeding our attitudes and our our our our
long range plans, I mean, if you're
looking at where you're going with needs and
and the ability for somebody to look at
it and say, the way we're headed, We're
gonna need more and more and more of
this.
And
the, does it give you a feel for
where we are now, but where we're headed,
Well, 1 of the things I think is
concerning is...
And 1 the reasons why I I... We
did this report was to look at the
average age. You know, that that... The immigrant
crop production worker is increasing.
And we did a a map, a table
looking at temperature, the And, of course, you
know I mentioned a lot of workers are
working in Southern California, Southern,
Arizona.
Great. Now,
these are very hot regions, and we're, of
course, getting hotter in many ways. So, you
know, so we've been told.
And we do need to
think about that about heat and
our you know, crop production workers and things
like that. Now, many times, when I talk
about these, you know, Southern Californian
and other places,
They are not working at the heat of
the highest part of the summer. Usually, it's
more in the spring and things like that,
But there are certainly heat
considerations to think about.
With these labor forces,
you know,
especially as they're getting older. So it's something
I think is the kind of a warning
sign to be thinking about
going forward
in both our labor supply, but also protection
of our workers and to be thinking about.
So that that that is 1 trend that
I'm seeing.
I I don't see... I I do still
think there's gonna be still increases in H
2 in the... In the temporary farm worker
visas.
I think we're gonna be seeing more employers
looking and relying on those visas.
And that they're gonna play an important part
in agriculture,
and so that, you know, it's gonna be
something that we're gonna be
thinking about of, as far as a policy
side, how can we improve the program?
You know, like I said, maybe possibly
looking at increasing the number of months,
that's available
for H 2 to stay here,
and also, there are caps. Sometimes that they...
That they place and they're increasing those caps
and the number of workers.
H2A
is you know, we do have farm labor
shortages.
So, you know, that that is important to
be thinking about. And a lot of times
we talk about plants, and and that's important,
but, you know, dairy farmers,
cattle farmers, spot farmers also have shortages,
and dairy farmers especially. Have a lot of
shortages in labor,
and we do need to be thinking about
programs that can help in their labor shortages
as well.
Well, who decides what's the limit?
Well, that's usually it's usually by law. It's
usually a a government.
And and this gets a little bit on
policy side. So III kinda... But the policy
time probably I would have to answer that.
But it is a, you know, there's federal...
Caps that are put in, they can increase
them.
Sometimes that can be done by the administration,
and when they look at, you know, the
the demand of that.
We have in discussion in some of these
areas, especially about labor demand, even discussed and,
you know, it's never...
That we're saying this is a way to
go, but add to the discussion, could there
be more local,
you know, discussion and
talk about labor and for instance, governors having
a little bit more say,
And like H 2 and things like that
that they need,
and being involving that more at the local
level than just at the national law. Can
there be
a quota or a limits? Per state, I
mean, could could
Colorado say I need a lot more sheep
herd and you all say we got enough.
And so the you know, that they're able
to have some effect
on the the availability
in that state
I... Currently, I don't think that's currently the
case,
but,
that is something that could be possible that
could be part of the discussion.
You know, that might be an idea
that could work. I I don't know exactly.
Then some of that,
if they look in particular, I will say
that,
as I mentioned, the department of labor first
reviews the application to make sure that it's
not taking away jobs from
their, you know, workers, Us born workers. That's
the first step of the process.
And
they usually
highly, you know, certify workers to come here.
That's, you, you know, 98, 97 percent of
those that requested get, you know, certified.
It's a pretty high. And then also, the
Us Cis, also is a pretty high.
Approval rate to get... To come here as
well.
So when they come to a state, did...
Are they regulated by the state's labor laws
such? As
minimum wage and
overtime and things like that, which vary by
state.
Yeah. That that can impact their wage, it
can impact, you know, there are student state
regulations that do need to be followed,
as well as h 2 regulations that need
to be followed as well.
That we've had a pretty high,
comparatively high minimum wage in California.
Mh. And and then some of these jobs
1 of I'm familiar with is like, sheep
herd. There are still sheep herd, which
people, you know, they're they're going up into
the mountains with,
a band of 2000 sheep,
a horse tent and, a dog in a
Winchester,
and you're kind of,
on the clock really or around the clock.
You know, you're...
And so there's trying to adjust some of
those things, and this is made even an
extreme example.
But that's where they just had to kinda
go out and, you know, live in that
environment to be able to to move the
herd or sheep along.
And then they... Or I think they're getting
many from Peru now. I for some reason,
but it kind of varies where they can...
Where they can find
find labor to bring them in.
Yeah. I... And I I'll have to admit.
I don't know exactly how state law impacts
like, their pay.
We we have seen an increase in pay,
if we, you know, a compared,
you know, similar dollars from 20 17 to
20 22,
we did see mostly that the paid did
increase, which tells us that there is still,
you know, there's quite a demand as well.
That's another way that we looked at demand
was both as a number
geography
and then also pay. And and most places,
you know,
increased and pay
from so.
Now are labor
contractors
themselves? Are they regulated?
I... Yes. There there certainly are, certain regulations
that are put in there. The biden administration
has...
I, you know, I shouldn't say...
Specifically for the farm labor contractors,
and assume there are, you know, regulations that
are are are placed in there, but also
the employer
you know, there are certain regulations, of course,
that they have.
The biden administration has,
you worked with
you know, increased
some of the regulations for
farm employers,
and and for, you know, making sure that
farm workers do have rights when they do
come here and and and looking at that.
Well, because, obviously, I mean, they're... If they're
concerned about a certain income they got, and
then there's a certain fee that has be
paid by somebody. And
and I do understand a role for labor
contractors because again, people haven't done that much,
and if they have to get quite a
few people lined up. I can see where
they could... There's a a service there to
be rendered.
But then somebody has to be responsible for
these minimum standards whether
to be sure that, housing,
transportation,
I'm not... Quite sure exactly how the food
food works, but access to be able to,
you know, these kinds of things they're taking
place. And
so there's
There's... Again, it gets back to a fair
amount of structure and an
organization.
It's it it's a... If a fascinating area,
and it's it's it's an it's an important
area.
So when you look at this whole broad
area, get yourself, and you're involved in the
science and the research department.
What are some of the questions you have,
you'd like to see
answer down the road. I mean, if you
get to... You put together a
you know, a wish list of view the
research you look for questions you'd like to
see answered and do you think that or
could be useful,
as as we move forward with
immigration
you know, indefinitely being an important part of
of of the Us seen and important to
Us food industry.
Yeah. Yeah.
Well,
if I were to kinda in particular the,
you know, farm workers
I would have to say, you know, the
big question I have
is how can we improve the H 2
program?
To both benefit the worker who's coming here
and then also the employer, and how how
best to do that and have that discussion.
Mh.
III think that's also just an immigration in
general,
how can we get beyond
where we are today a sort of a...
A political back and forth and
not making much progress?
How can we have a discussion
both about where we want the country to
go and what's happening,
but also to make sure that we, you
know, have a labor force that's here and
that's important and that that provides
what we need in our country. You know,
there's there's different areas. We talk about agriculture
and their shortages,
but so many things are going
in, you know, Ai and in chip manufacturing.
Where we just don't have the workers for
that as well that we need to have
workers,
help us, you know,
with those industries,
and,
things in construction.
There's areas where we need more workers as
well
across the country. In different places.
So it's it's a discussion that happens happens
that has to happen locally,
but also within industry and it's just different
levels. And how do we have those discussions
that are productive
and and not getting into, you know, politics
up 1 side versus the other of how
we... Where we want to go as a
country and what we want as far as
economic development and growth to go forward
and what we want to accomplish.
Did did you
you grow up
anywhere near Storm lake Iowa. I did. Yes.
So why the guy... That's a guy's name
that publishes the paper there. It's a great
movie. I cannot remember his name. I've seen
a of times. I've... Read the book and
I've talked to him before. Yeah. It's been
a it's been a few years. It was
1 of those stories of a community too.
Hey that at first, I think the community
was feeling somewhat threatened because they, you know,
meat processing plant and they needed help, and
they...
You know, brought bus loads of immigrants in,
and that was back before. We knew all
those stories about them. And at first blush,
the community had a real hard time with
it. And then it just evolves, you know,
they kind of... They become a manager miniature
Brooklyn in Western Iowa. Yeah and and and
appreciate the
you know, the the foods and and they're
getting everybody's getting used to each other, you
know, and there's just so many things to
acc,
but there's some stories like that, but it
just kinda evolves. You get... Yeah. It's it
it's got it's it's got its rough spots,
and then I keep... Wishing that might be
what we're facing now is that this is
those rough spots we get to to to
work out. So good for you for being
kind of on that front.
And and looking at at what's what's going
on.
I love my job because it's different every
day.
New to look at something else to learn,
and yeah I gotta I I gotta ask
you the 1 more thing about for the
food chain is concerned.
What about the back of house?
In restaurants.
Mh. Are they able to utilize H 2
as well?
Restaurants...
No. This is... I I believe, I I
have never seen
working in restaurants or anything like that.
There there is the H2B,
which I mentioned,
can be... I think there can be restaurant
workers. Like I said, the are more seasonal
temporary workers,
mostly in
areas that
require seasonal workers say, like, in the ski
resorts, those or in now, like, Maine. I'm
doing this report. Know a lot of people,
Immigrants go up to Maine in Massachusetts, up
Northeast because people going up. You know, to
the beach beaches there or in Florida,
or different places at different points of the
year. And
so that...
That's can be places where
H2B temporary workers work.
Wow.
We're gonna have to have you back on
when this comes to H2C,
and b e and f. And and just
kind of
I'm I'm kinda with you. You went all
the way to Ski resorts as
the restaurant thing can reminds me. I used
to go to this place. It was a
great
have way us ring charles that I could
get for breakfast,
and I love really good way those ring
charles,
Yeah. And it turned out that the the
cook
was,
probably didn't can't came over and in a
in a process that wasn't exactly approved.
And and so
they came in and took back and sending
back to Mexico
And
I kept coming in and getting Away those
rent Charles. And 1 day they were really
great again, and I asked him. I said,
did Jesus come back and they said, Yeah.
He's back.
That's great. That's a good. No. I could
tell this because, okay, the good Way boss
are back. And and we gotta get in
a lot. Smoother with these with these things.
But I I appreciate you're telling the telling
these stories and
And I think it's it's a good reminder
to us.
Of all the needs that we have,
and
you know, you... Just when you feel like
maybe it there's been enough discussion in the
world about immigration, but not at the certain
level. It's we're probably in...
On all fronts here a little bit knee
jerk on some of it. But I'm I'm
mean, Impressed there are processes
and that there there's needs and that
and I'm glad that you're looking at it
and you're sharing with us. And I wanna
thank you for being on farm to table
talking. And if people would like to
see more about your
organization
or
are or this report that you've just done,
how can I find it?
So, it's on our website. It's
it's all 1 word, American
Immigration Council
and then dot org.
So 0RG.
And okay. And then you should be able
to find it there. And yeah, we are...
Like I said, we're doing this 1 and
we'll do another map on h to, and
we're very excited about... And we're gonna be
update. We're gonna
we're gonna try to update it every year.
Yeah. So you look at the timeline and
what's happening because it is something that we
do wanna be keeping track of because it's
demand
increasingly we wanna find out what we can
help. It both local communities and farmers know
about this demand and and what we can
tell
legislators and how to improve the program? Well,
on
If you've got something that you think those
of us that are paying attention tower foods
grown and consumed and distributed and the role
labor plays come back, and you don't even
have to wait. For H2BBEFGHI.
And, well, anytime. So Steve Albert, thanks for
being on farm but table talk
Yes. Thank you.
It's great to be here.
You've been listening to farm to table talk
with your host, Roger Watson.