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The Steve saga continues last week,

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we invited librarian and novelist
Steve Raza to explore his worlds of

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spaceship, superheroes,
and a little steampunk.

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Now you could say that we are switching
genres to a spy thriller. Well,

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perhaps not, but we do have a secret
agent man arriving in the studio.

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He has helped to discover
some of your favorite authors.

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He's also helped create a lot of your
favorite books in fiction and non-fiction

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he leads his own not so secret literary
agency and is also publisher of

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enclave publishing. Steve lobby is
our next guest on fantastical truth.

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They hold again, fantastical truth,

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the podcast from Laura haven.com in
which we explore fantastical stories for

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God's glory and apply their
meanings to the real world.

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Jesus calls us to serve
I'm E Steven Burnett,

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the publisher of Laura Haven and
co-author of the pop culture parent.

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And I'm Zachary Russell. And it
is no secret that on my bookshelf,

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our mini books, that I still need to read
many of them from our publisher today.

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Please don't tell them and keep that
a secret. But this is episode 129.

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Why does fantastical fiction
express God's creativity?

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And we're gonna be joined by the head
of enclave publishing Steve lobby.

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This is episode two of
our Steve saga. Next week,

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we will have a finale. Steve will
cue that up in just a little bit.

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We're also going to go through a few, uh,

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concessions about this episode before
we get started with our guest. I think,

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uh, Steve lobby may be waiting on, uh,

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some final unearthing for his unique means
of transport today. Yeah, real quick,

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uh, for the concession stand.
Uh, we've got a few snacks here,

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a little bit healthier this time.

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I think we cleared out the
potluck from a few weeks ago. Uh,

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this episode is actually
featuring a guest from, uh,

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the cover sponsor for fantastical
truth. The enclave publishing,

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which is now owned by Oasis family media.

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So whenever you get an ad for either
one of them at the top of this show, uh,

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it's the same folks,

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Oasis family media bought enclave
publishing earlier this year, regardless,

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however, of who the sponsor is, uh,

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we would want to invite this
particular Steve and the next Steve,

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in this Steve saga to hear their unique
perspectives behind the scenes of

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Christian publishing
another concession too.

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If you happen to be in the
Christian writer world, chances are,

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you may have pitched a project,
uh, to our guest today. And, uh,

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just a little secret for
you. We are no exception,

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but as usual fantastical truth
will not be a writing focused show.

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We're not doing industry and punctuation
and how to get an agent and all that

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sort of thing. You can go elsewhere
for those resources. Instead,

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we hope to hear as fans,

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Steve's heart behind enclave and
all Christian publishing, uh,

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in which he has spent several decades
and has lots of stories to share.

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We wanna look behind the scenes, uh,

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just as if you were looking
at a film set as a fan,

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just wanted to see how
they make the movie magic.

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You're not trying to get
into pictures yourselves.

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That's exactly how we're looking
at the publishing industry today.

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Having heard Steve lobby
speak at several events,

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we always appreciate his
candor about this work. He,

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he tends to be very positive about this,
uh, but also very realistic about it.

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And I always appreciate that kind of
transparency from a fine Christian

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professional. So we're looking forward
to that conversation first. However,

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let's cover that sponsorship. It's our
cover sponsor. Again, for this episode,

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enclave publishing itself,

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focusing on the upcoming
novel flight by Kristin young,

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this is book three of the
collective underground series.

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Here's the cover description
on the cusp of graduation.

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Cadence is finally feeling in control.

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She's about to become one
of the prestigious elites
working in the hall of love.

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Plus she can take her place as a full
member of the underground sirens who meet

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secretly in love city. She'll finally be
able to use her memory skills for good,

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instead of reporting people as a watcher,

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but a dangerous trap is set throwing
cadence into unwelcome and unfamiliar

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territory.

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Someone in the collective remembers things
that could very well get her killed.

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The muse is by her side after all,

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but will she be protected when someone
powerful wants her dead enclave

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publishing presents flight by Kristin
young, it is available September 13,

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wherever books are sold also available
in audiobook format from Oasis audio.

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You can get all those links currently
at top hour podcast sponsors page Laura

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haman.com/podcast sponsors,
or get the basic link.

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I'll top our show notes for episode 129.

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Steven, I'm really excited to talk
to Steve today on the podcast.

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I first heard a talk from him about
four or five years ago. And, uh,

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it was kind of about the basics of why
do we even have science fiction and

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fantasy? Why do Christians write in
it? What's what are we getting at?

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And there was this line. He said,

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that's always stuck with me science
fiction deals with improbable

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possibilities,

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whereas fantasy deals with
plausible I impossibilities.

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And I've always thought that's
a great way of summarizing it.

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That science fiction is about our possible
future. Although probably improbable,

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not probably not gonna happen fantasy
deals with things that are just straight

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up impossible, but it makes the
whole setting seem plausible. The,

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the characters seem very plausible
and the, uh, the events, you know,

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make sense within that world. And, uh,

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it that's always kinda helped me
separate the two a little bit in my head.

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I enjoy both types of stories.

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There's plenty of overlap between
the two genres and of course,

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enclave publishing has been in
this business for quite some time,

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even going back to when it was
known as a previous publisher name.

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Interestingly, Zach,

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just as you were saying that I recall
that probably the first time I met our

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second Steve here,

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Steve lobby was at a conference of the
American Christian fiction writers, uh,

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which happens to be going on again at
the very moment they were recording this

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episode. So interesting little, uh,
coincidence of timing there, by the way,

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I hear this strange scratching
sound under the floor.

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I think our guest may be
arriving in the studio,

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so let's play up some floorboards
and see what's going on.

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Steve lobby has worked over
40 years in the book industry.

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He has been a bookstore manager and editor
at Bethany house publishers before he

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started his own literary agency.

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The Steve lobby agency has since
represented nearly 2000 books across many

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different genres. In 2014,

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he bought an existing publisher of
Christian made fantastical fiction,

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which is now known as enclave
publishing. Earlier this year,

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the company was sold to a new owner,

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Oasis family media with Steve
still serving as publisher.

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He's also the author of many nonfiction
resources for Christian writers,

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including a new book releasing next year.

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And is president owner of the
Christian writers Institute.

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He's also arriving in the
studio of via a secret tunnel,

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which has been dug out
over 40 years with spoons.

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Steve we're so glad you
were able to make it today.

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<Laugh> and I'm exhausted with the
travel. I mean, oh man, <laugh>.

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That cannot be, yeah. Maybe.

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Try bigger spoon, you know.

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Plus sure that there's all kinds of, uh,

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worms and little tree branches that
sticking out the size of that tunnel, uh,

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in the.

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Industry that you're in. They're,
they're all over my shoulders right now.

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Very he, a very heavyweight and.

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To get to Texas, you gotta go through all
the limestone. So good luck with that.

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<Laugh> so Steve,

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we'd like to ask this of any new
arrival in the allure human studio.

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How did you discover biblical
faith and fantastic imagination?

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What is your superhero origin story
here? And of course by Christian law,

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it has to start with,

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I was eight years old and I read the
Chronicles of Narnia when I accepted Aslan

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as my Lord and savior.

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Well, it didn't quite start that
way, but I started, you know,

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grew up in a Christian home and
was well discipled and taught, uh,

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the basics of the faith from a
very young age. It was when I was,

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uh, I think it was 10 years
old. We were on a long,

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uh,

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car trip across the United States cuz
we were living in Alaska at the time.

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So my mom and dad thought it would be
cheaper to just fly to Seattle, buy a car,

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drive it across all around the United
States and then sell the car and

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fly home. Oh wow. Which is what,
which is what we did. <laugh> uh,

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so I'm in the back of this station wagon.

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My two brothers are in the middle seat.

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I'm I get the whole back
area to myself and I read

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mysterious island by Jules Verne. Ah.

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Yes.

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I didn't know it was a sequel. So
I didn't know who captain Nemo was.

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I didn't know any of this
background to the story.

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I just started reading
this fantastic adventure

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on this hidden island and it captured my

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imagination.

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So I began looking for other books

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that might, you know, serve to
capture the imagination. And I,

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I think the next one I read was at the
Earth's core by Edgar rice burrows,

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which is not the Tarzan,
which is not the Mars series.

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It's a land beneath the earth called Paar

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where all the dinosaurs now live.
And so, so there was this entry,

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I think, through a volcano shaft
or whatever. And you're under the,

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under the earth that
captured my imagination.

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And I read every single book in that
series then began reading the Mars series

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then, you know, start
exploring, exploring, exploring.

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And I think I was 16 when my,

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one of my older brothers gave
me the Chronicles of Nadia, uh,

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for Christmas and uh, sorry,

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I'm gonna really get
granular in my memories here,

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but that same Christmas I
had asked for a new album,

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which will now date me because
I said the word album <laugh>,

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but I asked for ed Emerson lake and

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Palmer's new album called
brain salad surgery.

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So I'm listening to brain salad
surgery while I'm reading lion,

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the witch in the wardrobe.

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That is the soundtrack in my head.

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Whenever I think of Narnia. Literally.

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What is brain salad surgery? What,
what is, what, what kind of music is.

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That? Um, uh, let's just call it
progressive rock or electronic rock. Okay.

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Uh, you think of the
song, uh, welcome back.

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My friends to the show that
never ends that's in that album.

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Oh, okay. I have heard of that one.

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So you start listening
and I can still hear the,

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the Mo synthesizer from Keith
Emerson and the, the, uh,

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vocals of, uh, Chris lake I
think was his name was the, uh,

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the main singer. And I hear that
music whenever I think of Narnia,

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I highly doubt that CS Lewis
had that in mind. <laugh>.

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A lot of people think of the,
uh, there was the BBC, uh, uh,

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made for TV series that they did,
which had a rather memorable theme.

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A lot of people associate that for me,

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I guess the only music I think of Narnia
is that, you know, admittedly the 2005,

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uh, film soundtrack, which is, which is
pretty good. Sure. Pretty good. But, uh,

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I would not have thought about a, uh,

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a rock album being the
prime association there.

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I would put the, uh,

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the records on my record player and put
on my headphones and then sit in my bed

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and read.

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And so a lot of books from that era have

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soundtracks in my head,

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cuz I was exploring all sorts
of kind of music at the time.

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Partly because there were no Al there
was no Christian alternative. Mm.

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At the time again, dating myself, you
had Barry McGuire, you had love song.

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You had Phil Kek.

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They really didn't rock and
roll for someone who was in high

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school, who liked black Sabbath
and blue oyster cult and, uh,

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Aerosmith, which was a
brand new group at the time.

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But it was truly during
that time that the,

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the concept of the imagination and
these fantastical stories to use your

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word, which is a great word for it,
literally captured my imagination.

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It just took me to those places that
I never thought were possible and

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began a journey into which I've,

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I've estimated tried to estimate
how many science fiction or fantasy

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novels that I've read in my lifetime.
And it's probably getting close to 3000.

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Wow. I'm a voracious
reader. I'm a fast reader.

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And so when someone begins talking to
me about an idea as if it's brand new,

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that, oh, it's never been done
before. I'm going, uh, yeah, it has,

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it was in, you know,

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Theodore Sturgeon's book or it
was an Alfred Best's book or,

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you know, all these
obscure authors and I'm,

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they're not obscure, they're
classics, you just haven't read them.

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So don't say it's unique. It might be,

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but make sure you're you, your
claim is absolutely accurate.

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So you move from enjoying these books, uh,

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to being the manager of a bookstore.

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And then from there not to skip too
much, uh, you end up, uh, working,

226
00:13:06,270 --> 00:13:08,190
actually doing, uh, editorial work and uh,

227
00:13:08,190 --> 00:13:11,150
I think ultimately right acquisitions
with the Bethany house publishers,

228
00:13:11,150 --> 00:13:12,750
which is the evangelical publisher.

229
00:13:12,900 --> 00:13:16,310
Yeah. I, uh, was hired to,

230
00:13:16,680 --> 00:13:19,310
as an acquisitions editor
for Bethany house. Uh,

231
00:13:19,310 --> 00:13:23,410
they didn't really want me to do their
proofreading or their copy editing.

232
00:13:23,410 --> 00:13:28,170
That would've been a big mistake.
Um, but I even in the interview,

233
00:13:28,210 --> 00:13:32,450
Carol Johnson, who's the lady who
hired me and that's by the way,

234
00:13:32,510 --> 00:13:36,010
the lady for whom the
Carol awards are named, oh,

235
00:13:36,100 --> 00:13:39,810
so I was hired by one of the great, uh,

236
00:13:39,810 --> 00:13:44,810
stalwarts of Christian fiction
in our industry who, you know,

237
00:13:44,810 --> 00:13:47,090
really nurtured and helped
me along. But she said,

238
00:13:47,090 --> 00:13:49,930
we need to have someone who has an
instinct for what a good book is.

239
00:13:50,390 --> 00:13:55,280
And we think you have that to jump
forward in this kind of this journey,

240
00:13:56,390 --> 00:14:01,240
when it came to publishing
science fiction or

241
00:14:01,240 --> 00:14:05,000
fantasy in the Christian marketplace.
Now, remember my background,

242
00:14:05,000 --> 00:14:09,360
this is my interest and
the editorial staff and the

243
00:14:09,360 --> 00:14:12,120
marketing people and the
finance people and management.

244
00:14:12,120 --> 00:14:14,460
They all knew what I liked,

245
00:14:15,520 --> 00:14:20,380
but I waited seven years before
I pitched my first science

246
00:14:20,380 --> 00:14:22,820
fiction project to the pub board.

247
00:14:23,480 --> 00:14:28,420
And I still remember to this day,
introducing the project, I said,

248
00:14:28,420 --> 00:14:30,780
I have been with the
company for seven years.

249
00:14:30,850 --> 00:14:34,860
I have brought a bunch of
different projects to you
and you all know I'm kind of

250
00:14:34,860 --> 00:14:36,540
a science fiction and fantasy nerd.

251
00:14:36,540 --> 00:14:39,740
And I raised my hand with the
symbol live long and prosper,

252
00:14:40,280 --> 00:14:42,980
and they all laughed. And I said,

253
00:14:43,360 --> 00:14:47,540
how many of those kinds of books have I
brought to this table in the last seven

254
00:14:47,540 --> 00:14:51,400
years? And they said, none. I
said, you're right until today.

255
00:14:52,200 --> 00:14:55,500
And that was Kathy tires
and the novel Firebird.

256
00:14:56,400 --> 00:15:00,660
And I was able to say, this is an
author who has written star wars.

257
00:15:00,660 --> 00:15:03,020
Novels has been on the New
York times best seller list.

258
00:15:03,200 --> 00:15:07,660
And if we are going to experiment
for lack of a better term

259
00:15:08,270 --> 00:15:13,180
in this genre, we can't
do any better than this.

260
00:15:13,490 --> 00:15:18,340
This is where we have to start.
And I remember Gary Johnson,

261
00:15:18,340 --> 00:15:20,940
Carol Johnson's wife, who was
the president of the company.

262
00:15:20,940 --> 00:15:24,540
He leaned back in his chair and he
goes, well, if you think it'll work,

263
00:15:24,690 --> 00:15:29,540
then let's do it. And this
was a man who fell asleep,

264
00:15:30,620 --> 00:15:34,420
watching star wars for the
first time <laugh> oh dear. Wow.

265
00:15:34,450 --> 00:15:38,580
I can't imagine that he was, he did
not like science fiction and fantasy.

266
00:15:39,290 --> 00:15:43,980
I gave him the novel Enders game.
He couldn't finish it. He just,

267
00:15:43,980 --> 00:15:48,980
it was not his thing. So for him
to put the publisher's reputation

268
00:15:50,290 --> 00:15:55,060
behind a genre that they
had never done in their

269
00:15:55,060 --> 00:16:00,040
history is really quite a, a
tribute to his forward thinking.

270
00:16:01,140 --> 00:16:05,080
And so we went from, uh, it
was the Kathy tires books.

271
00:16:05,080 --> 00:16:10,080
Then we did Brandy Erman and John
Olson's oxygen and fifth man, uh,

272
00:16:10,080 --> 00:16:11,960
you know, or started
winning Christy awards.

273
00:16:11,960 --> 00:16:16,920
And then I acquired Karen Hancock with
her books that have started winning

274
00:16:16,920 --> 00:16:21,870
Christie awards of actually won four in
a row to the point that they had to, um,

275
00:16:21,870 --> 00:16:23,190
in fact was because of her.

276
00:16:23,220 --> 00:16:28,190
They created the hall of fame
for the Christie awards to retire

277
00:16:28,200 --> 00:16:33,030
someone who is won four times so they
could, so other people could win.

278
00:16:34,430 --> 00:16:39,380
And, um, after, after that, um,

279
00:16:39,840 --> 00:16:41,820
you know, we had kind of this momentum,

280
00:16:42,590 --> 00:16:47,170
but then baker came along and
bought Bethany house in 2003.

281
00:16:47,710 --> 00:16:50,690
And at that moment I had
to make a career decision.

282
00:16:50,860 --> 00:16:55,770
Do I stick with the existing
organization or do I step

283
00:16:55,770 --> 00:16:58,010
out and try to do something new?

284
00:16:58,070 --> 00:17:03,000
And that's when I formed the agency
or at least I became an agent and then

285
00:17:03,120 --> 00:17:07,800
formed my own agency about a year
later when I left the advocate

286
00:17:08,060 --> 00:17:12,700
for the genre went away.
Mm. And if you'll know,

287
00:17:12,700 --> 00:17:13,940
if you'd notice in history,

288
00:17:13,940 --> 00:17:18,820
there's a gap between
around 2005 to around 2008

289
00:17:18,820 --> 00:17:23,020
when there weren't any books being
done in the, uh, in the market per se.

290
00:17:23,850 --> 00:17:28,670
And then in 2008 is when Jeff Erky
started martial Lord press as a way

291
00:17:28,670 --> 00:17:33,470
of solving that problem. And I remember
at the time when he did that, I thought,

292
00:17:33,470 --> 00:17:35,550
oh, good. Now I don't have to do it.

293
00:17:37,920 --> 00:17:42,460
And it was six years later when
he and I, uh, five years later,

294
00:17:42,460 --> 00:17:46,060
he and I talked about, uh, about it.
And that's when I bought marcher,

295
00:17:46,060 --> 00:17:50,760
Lord press rebranded it as enclave.
And that's where we are today.

296
00:17:51,010 --> 00:17:53,880
Uh, real quick though, uh,
Steve, before we ever met,

297
00:17:53,880 --> 00:17:55,440
which I think was fairly brief,

298
00:17:55,440 --> 00:18:00,120
may have been an C F w conference in
the mid two thousands. As I recall,

299
00:18:00,410 --> 00:18:02,280
uh, in the few years before then,

300
00:18:02,280 --> 00:18:07,000
I had had to subsist with any Christian
made, uh, fantastical fiction.

301
00:18:07,000 --> 00:18:07,830
I could find,

302
00:18:07,830 --> 00:18:12,760
I think among the first that I found
was the three volume collection of

303
00:18:12,760 --> 00:18:17,720
the Firebird, then trilogy from Bethany
house. I still have that book. Uh,

304
00:18:17,720 --> 00:18:21,360
and it's, uh, really cool. And I
enjoyed that a lot. And then after that,

305
00:18:21,360 --> 00:18:25,160
I remember getting a hold
of this book called oxygen,

306
00:18:25,160 --> 00:18:29,360
which is from the same publisher and
that was by, uh, Randy or Manson and, uh,

307
00:18:29,360 --> 00:18:33,320
John Olson. And, uh, just, just
loved it. And then I still remember,

308
00:18:33,320 --> 00:18:36,880
I'm not sure what happened here, but
the publisher had at least through,

309
00:18:37,150 --> 00:18:40,280
I think it may have been the family
Christian stores when that chain was still

310
00:18:40,280 --> 00:18:43,280
open. Uh, they sent a
postcard to my house.

311
00:18:43,280 --> 00:18:46,200
I don't know if they sent a postcard to
anybody and the store's mailing list,

312
00:18:46,200 --> 00:18:48,600
or if they had a way of knowing
that I was an oxygen fan,

313
00:18:48,660 --> 00:18:51,640
but they sent a postcard to my
house to say that the fifth man,

314
00:18:51,640 --> 00:18:52,720
the sequel to that book,

315
00:18:53,110 --> 00:18:55,440
I was going to release and they
had the date and everything.

316
00:18:55,440 --> 00:18:58,960
This was in the early days of the internet
when you couldn't get as many emails

317
00:18:58,960 --> 00:19:01,850
about that. And I just remember like that,

318
00:19:01,850 --> 00:19:05,170
that broke the news to me that there was
going to be a sequel. And to this day,

319
00:19:05,170 --> 00:19:06,250
you know, I'd like to,

320
00:19:06,250 --> 00:19:09,410
to be a trilogy because the crew was
still out there on the area stand.

321
00:19:09,410 --> 00:19:12,850
They are, they still haven't gotten home.
<laugh> they left their man on Mars.

322
00:19:12,850 --> 00:19:16,570
He went a little nuts, uh, spoiler alert,
but, uh, yep. See our episode with,

323
00:19:16,570 --> 00:19:17,850
uh, Randy, ER, Ranson about that.

324
00:19:17,960 --> 00:19:22,370
Well, to use the Ray Bradbury,
uh, famous story about Mars,

325
00:19:22,700 --> 00:19:25,490
they're still living there and
they are the Martians. Hmm.

326
00:19:25,510 --> 00:19:29,050
Yes. Yes. I think in fact,
I think that they'll,

327
00:19:29,050 --> 00:19:32,810
those will be the only Martians will be
the people, uh, unless, uh Angerman and,

328
00:19:32,810 --> 00:19:35,890
and Olson are correct that there
could be some spores or, uh,

329
00:19:35,890 --> 00:19:38,850
fungal growth or something on Mars
and at least in their view, uh,

330
00:19:38,850 --> 00:19:41,810
that would not mess with the
Christian view of the, of aliens.

331
00:19:41,840 --> 00:19:45,530
That's that's so cool that you have that
connection to those, to those books.

332
00:19:45,530 --> 00:19:46,130
And I.

333
00:19:46,130 --> 00:19:49,730
Still remember. Yes. And, uh,
what was it? Uh, of course the,

334
00:19:49,730 --> 00:19:53,290
the pitch for that book originally,
oh two is still on your website, uh,

335
00:19:53,380 --> 00:19:56,610
as an example of a really, really
good pitch or really good proposal.

336
00:19:56,880 --> 00:19:59,690
They pitched it to me at
Mount Herman verbally.

337
00:19:59,690 --> 00:20:03,490
And then what you see on my
website is what they sent to me.

338
00:20:04,120 --> 00:20:07,100
And as you can see, they called it
oh two. And I said, well, no one,

339
00:20:07,100 --> 00:20:11,100
unless they're scientists won't know
what that is, so let's call it oxygen.

340
00:20:11,560 --> 00:20:13,860
And they're like, okay, <laugh>.

341
00:20:15,300 --> 00:20:19,980
Gotta go just a little bit populist in
order to appeal the readers part of being

342
00:20:19,980 --> 00:20:20,980
a servant, I suppose.

343
00:20:21,230 --> 00:20:25,140
So of the 3000 science fiction
and fantasy books you've read,

344
00:20:25,520 --> 00:20:27,140
you probably hadn't read
'em all by that point,

345
00:20:27,140 --> 00:20:31,340
but I'm sure you'd read hundreds
maybe by that point. Why Andrews game,

346
00:20:31,460 --> 00:20:34,460
why did you give that to your
boss at Bethany house? What,

347
00:20:34,460 --> 00:20:36,180
what is it about that book that you liked?

348
00:20:36,210 --> 00:20:39,500
Well, for one thing, it was a
standalone, at least at the time,

349
00:20:39,850 --> 00:20:44,000
like there were sequels
later that they're good,

350
00:20:44,000 --> 00:20:46,800
but they're odd. Uh,

351
00:20:46,800 --> 00:20:49,200
what I like about Ender's
game is I told him,

352
00:20:49,200 --> 00:20:52,360
and as I tell anyone about Ender's
game, especially you're for a,

353
00:20:52,370 --> 00:20:56,590
if you're a man, it is
every little boy's fantasy.

354
00:20:58,080 --> 00:21:02,620
Who's somewhat nerdy who has the

355
00:21:02,620 --> 00:21:04,220
opportunity to save the world

356
00:21:05,900 --> 00:21:10,680
and the idea of being in a school and
being going through all the training that

357
00:21:10,680 --> 00:21:11,513
they were going through.

358
00:21:12,060 --> 00:21:16,320
And just the whole reveal of what
that training ultimately meant.

359
00:21:17,260 --> 00:21:17,920
Uh,

360
00:21:17,920 --> 00:21:22,530
it's very much a capturing of that

361
00:21:22,940 --> 00:21:25,290
feeling that you have when you're younger,

362
00:21:25,960 --> 00:21:30,510
that of the possibilities
of what can happen. Now,

363
00:21:30,900 --> 00:21:33,830
I didn't give him dune
because I felt dune.

364
00:21:33,830 --> 00:21:38,760
Would've been too complex dune
and is actually my favorite

365
00:21:39,700 --> 00:21:44,060
of all science fiction or
fantasy that I've ever read. Uh,

366
00:21:44,570 --> 00:21:49,450
I think I've read it five
times, six times now. And it,

367
00:21:49,450 --> 00:21:53,340
it just, there's something
about the creativity.

368
00:21:54,070 --> 00:21:59,040
We almost, you know, dismiss it now
because it's like, oh yeah, you know,

369
00:21:59,420 --> 00:22:04,000
big worms that create some drug
that allows navigation to happen

370
00:22:04,000 --> 00:22:08,360
between planets. Okay. Whatever you
have to realize when that came out,

371
00:22:08,600 --> 00:22:13,600
<laugh> nobody had ever thought
of anything like that or the scope

372
00:22:13,650 --> 00:22:18,280
of what he was creating
and his invention of an

373
00:22:18,490 --> 00:22:23,100
amalgam religion that combines Islam

374
00:22:23,160 --> 00:22:25,660
and Christianity and Judaism,

375
00:22:26,120 --> 00:22:30,540
and with a touch of Buddhism,
all wrapped into this weird,

376
00:22:31,230 --> 00:22:36,040
strange amalgam made me.
And I think of it later,

377
00:22:36,040 --> 00:22:36,960
as I think of it,

378
00:22:37,240 --> 00:22:42,040
analytically is that an author can have
religion in their books and have it make

379
00:22:42,040 --> 00:22:43,080
sense. There you.

380
00:22:43,080 --> 00:22:43,770
Go.

381
00:22:43,770 --> 00:22:46,040
Oh, absolutely. Without
trying to convert the reader.

382
00:22:47,030 --> 00:22:48,420
Oh, I finished doing, uh,

383
00:22:48,420 --> 00:22:50,940
unfortunately caught up to it
way later than you did Steve.

384
00:22:50,940 --> 00:22:55,580
I finished it last year for the first
time, just in time to see the movie,

385
00:22:55,580 --> 00:22:59,580
cuz somehow I had missed it all. And
uh, I was orange Catholic by the end.

386
00:22:59,580 --> 00:23:01,500
I was uh, thumbing
through that little book.

387
00:23:01,740 --> 00:23:03,020
<laugh> I don't even know what that means.

388
00:23:03,020 --> 00:23:07,460
Orange Catholic <laugh> you can tell you
opposed to being green, Catholic. Yeah.

389
00:23:07,480 --> 00:23:12,380
But if you think about how he did it is
that he wasn't using the religion as a

390
00:23:12,380 --> 00:23:16,140
method to convert you because
you couldn't be converted.

391
00:23:16,140 --> 00:23:17,620
The religion didn't exist.

392
00:23:18,800 --> 00:23:23,350
So I look at it now as someone
who's publishing books that go

393
00:23:23,500 --> 00:23:27,990
into or come from people
from a Christian worldview,

394
00:23:28,570 --> 00:23:33,430
the idea is not necessarily to convert,
although that would be wonderful.

395
00:23:34,100 --> 00:23:38,710
It's the idea to show
the expressive nature

396
00:23:39,080 --> 00:23:43,430
of God's creation and
his kingdom through the

397
00:23:43,430 --> 00:23:44,263
imagination,

398
00:23:45,200 --> 00:23:49,830
without saying chapter five has to be
the conversion scene where, you know,

399
00:23:49,830 --> 00:23:53,510
you have to say the sinner's prayer
and I'm not saying that's a bad thing.

400
00:23:53,510 --> 00:23:55,470
I'm just saying it
doesn't work in fiction.

401
00:23:56,020 --> 00:24:00,350
It'd be better to show how people
are interacting with their faith,

402
00:24:00,830 --> 00:24:04,320
whatever that faith may be. And uh, some,

403
00:24:04,320 --> 00:24:09,160
some flexibility there without
going too far a field and just doing

404
00:24:09,160 --> 00:24:12,520
star wars, which is another
version of Buddhism.

405
00:24:12,910 --> 00:24:17,880
I still remember editing a
novel where the author had the

406
00:24:17,880 --> 00:24:22,370
character finding their faith
within. And I said, well,

407
00:24:23,340 --> 00:24:25,960
you do realize that is Buddhism.

408
00:24:26,860 --> 00:24:31,390
That if you look into your
yourself and you find it within,

409
00:24:32,600 --> 00:24:37,010
I said, actually the Christian
faith is from without.

410
00:24:37,950 --> 00:24:42,580
And it comes in through the
power of the holy spirit

411
00:24:43,080 --> 00:24:47,620
and transforms the heart rather
than the heart transforming itself.

412
00:24:48,350 --> 00:24:52,330
And I remember the author going, oh
my goodness. I never thought of that.

413
00:24:53,320 --> 00:24:56,250
I've always thought, you know, in
meditation and whatnot, you know,

414
00:24:56,250 --> 00:24:58,290
you're looking within
and you know, for peace.

415
00:24:58,290 --> 00:25:01,290
And I go that that's a different
conversation. Mm-hmm <affirmative>,

416
00:25:01,290 --> 00:25:03,130
you're talking about conversion here.

417
00:25:04,560 --> 00:25:07,620
And so with three or
four different sentences,

418
00:25:07,620 --> 00:25:11,380
the author was able to change
it so that it didn't come across

419
00:25:12,040 --> 00:25:13,460
theologically incorrect.

420
00:25:14,250 --> 00:25:18,470
And yet the author didn't know it was
theologically incorrect until I pointed it

421
00:25:18,470 --> 00:25:19,020
out.

422
00:25:19,020 --> 00:25:22,110
Yeah. You know, I've, I've noticed with
so many things in the last 10 years,

423
00:25:22,110 --> 00:25:25,830
it's all about finding your
authentic self in your true self.

424
00:25:26,280 --> 00:25:31,230
There's a smidge of truth to that
because God created the world and it was

425
00:25:31,230 --> 00:25:31,650
good.

426
00:25:31,650 --> 00:25:36,470
And then the flaw of sin moved into
everything and then he's going to restore

427
00:25:36,470 --> 00:25:38,590
the world with new heavens and new earth.

428
00:25:38,760 --> 00:25:43,550
So there is a sense in which we
do find that our truest nature

429
00:25:43,640 --> 00:25:47,350
in Christ that you're right. We
can't just find that in ourselves.

430
00:25:47,740 --> 00:25:51,350
That's a STIC basically
believe ultimately.

431
00:25:51,350 --> 00:25:52,230
Yes, very much so.

432
00:25:52,670 --> 00:25:55,240
Well it's also American
civil religion. I mean,

433
00:25:55,240 --> 00:25:58,640
whether someone is a Buddhist
or Buddhism adjacent or not, uh,

434
00:25:58,640 --> 00:26:03,240
that is just a very appealing sentiment
that is spread even by those who claim

435
00:26:03,240 --> 00:26:07,240
not to be religious. So I'm glad you're
able to help fix that a little bit.

436
00:26:07,240 --> 00:26:11,600
And it actually helps me then to
sympathize if I'm reading a novel from a

437
00:26:11,600 --> 00:26:14,440
Christian author and it may come
across a theme that like, oh,

438
00:26:14,440 --> 00:26:17,360
this is unbiblical. Or, you know, this
makes the author a heretic. Like, well,

439
00:26:17,360 --> 00:26:20,840
not necessarily. It's just simply a
matter of the author. Maybe having,

440
00:26:20,840 --> 00:26:22,760
as you said, never thought
of it that way. Right.

441
00:26:22,760 --> 00:26:25,960
And maybe just take somebody to come
along with a little bit more of a steady,

442
00:26:25,960 --> 00:26:28,960
theological hand and say,
well actually, you know,

443
00:26:28,960 --> 00:26:33,400
the holy spirit influences us from
outside. So if we're looking within us,

444
00:26:33,400 --> 00:26:36,800
it's more like looking to the spirit
who is still coming from outside.

445
00:26:37,070 --> 00:26:37,480
I mean,

446
00:26:37,480 --> 00:26:42,260
it's one of the reasons why I
tend to be very careful about any

447
00:26:42,260 --> 00:26:46,960
books that we would ever publish under
enclave or that I would even represent as

448
00:26:46,960 --> 00:26:50,000
an agent that are dealing
with the supernatural.

449
00:26:50,750 --> 00:26:52,460
If we're going to look at those,

450
00:26:52,600 --> 00:26:56,420
I'm probably gonna ask that author for
their theology of angels and demons.

451
00:26:57,040 --> 00:26:58,290
I want you to write it out.

452
00:26:58,400 --> 00:27:02,330
I want you to give me a 10
page paper of what you believe

453
00:27:03,510 --> 00:27:06,700
because it may be, they've
never studied it before.

454
00:27:07,700 --> 00:27:08,800
And consequently,

455
00:27:09,430 --> 00:27:13,000
I will have times at conferences where
someone will sit across and me and pitch

456
00:27:13,000 --> 00:27:16,950
something and I'll look at them and
it's supernatural angels and demons,

457
00:27:16,950 --> 00:27:19,390
you know, that kind of world.
And I look at them and go,

458
00:27:19,390 --> 00:27:23,180
you do know that that's not biblical
what you just pitched. I said,

459
00:27:23,180 --> 00:27:26,980
it's creative. Don't get me
wrong. It's incredibly creative.

460
00:27:27,630 --> 00:27:31,870
However, in the light of the scriptures,

461
00:27:31,870 --> 00:27:36,510
and then I will cite a few passages and
I'll say, you probably need to go back.

462
00:27:37,020 --> 00:27:39,330
It doesn't mean your idea is invalid.

463
00:27:39,340 --> 00:27:44,030
It needs to be adjusted in how
you're portraying these various

464
00:27:44,900 --> 00:27:48,870
powers, principalities and powers so
that it follows a biblical worldview.

465
00:27:49,120 --> 00:27:52,910
So can angels become humans and
fall in love with another human?

466
00:27:53,240 --> 00:27:56,510
There's your big question
about, you know, well.

467
00:27:56,630 --> 00:27:59,630
Nicholas cage says, yes, he, he made
a whole movie about this. I mean,

468
00:27:59,740 --> 00:28:03,310
that settles that he is in left behind.
So there's a weird crossover there, but.

469
00:28:03,310 --> 00:28:07,630
Well, you, you know, it's the question
of the Nephem, what were they, you know,

470
00:28:07,630 --> 00:28:11,670
mm-hmm <affirmative> is there such a
thing as a created being like that?

471
00:28:12,000 --> 00:28:14,950
Or was it mythology? I mean,
what is it we don't know,

472
00:28:15,250 --> 00:28:18,470
but this is where people will
go to something like that.

473
00:28:18,470 --> 00:28:21,750
And they then extrapolate
hyper creativity,

474
00:28:22,300 --> 00:28:26,600
but then they simply leave the Bible
behind they're using the Bible as their

475
00:28:27,310 --> 00:28:30,720
flashpoint or their creative
point, which is fine.

476
00:28:31,240 --> 00:28:35,660
But you gotta ultimately have to bring
it back if we're going to be true

477
00:28:36,670 --> 00:28:40,060
to who we are and what we're
trying to do as a publisher.

478
00:28:40,450 --> 00:28:41,283
Amen. Did that.

479
00:28:41,470 --> 00:28:44,300
We, we wouldn't have
published. I couldn't have.

480
00:28:44,470 --> 00:28:47,460
Oh yeah. What would it
took like an auto parts,

481
00:28:47,460 --> 00:28:50,660
a repair manual company or something
that ultimately published do back then.

482
00:28:50,660 --> 00:28:51,380
Nobody wanted to.

483
00:28:51,380 --> 00:28:52,780
Publish it. Nobody wanted it. Yeah.

484
00:28:52,780 --> 00:28:55,940
Very strange, very strange
story behind this strange story.

485
00:28:56,010 --> 00:28:59,940
Well, and even if you read
his series and continue it,

486
00:29:00,310 --> 00:29:04,950
they get progressively stranger after the

487
00:29:04,950 --> 00:29:09,670
first three, it just gets so
weird that it's almost unreadable.

488
00:29:09,810 --> 00:29:14,590
And it has come to light later that the
author Frank Harbert was really into

489
00:29:14,730 --> 00:29:15,670
LSD at the end.

490
00:29:15,840 --> 00:29:17,110
So he found his own spice.

491
00:29:17,400 --> 00:29:18,990
To, uh, yeah, he did to inspire him.

492
00:29:18,990 --> 00:29:23,590
And it shows in what's being what was
written, especially in books, six,

493
00:29:23,590 --> 00:29:26,550
I think, and seven, it just got strange.

494
00:29:27,040 --> 00:29:30,950
So in a moment, I wanna circle back to,
uh, what you've described the enclave,

495
00:29:30,950 --> 00:29:32,310
uh, purpose of being, uh,

496
00:29:32,310 --> 00:29:35,950
to share out of this world's stories
informed by a coherent theology.

497
00:29:36,150 --> 00:29:40,110
Let's go real quick to chapter one. Uh,
what is the enclave publishing story?

498
00:29:40,110 --> 00:29:43,720
And we've already alluded to that
just a little bit, uh, how you, uh,

499
00:29:43,720 --> 00:29:45,800
bought the publisher, uh, from, um, uh,

500
00:29:45,800 --> 00:29:49,360
Jeff Erky was previously called marcher
Lord press and then rebranded his

501
00:29:49,360 --> 00:29:50,193
enclave.

502
00:29:50,230 --> 00:29:54,160
What would you say then is the mission
of enclave publishing as opposed to other

503
00:29:54,160 --> 00:29:57,800
publishers of fantasy sci-fi
and beyond, uh, or even, uh,

504
00:29:57,800 --> 00:29:59,800
different and unique among, uh,

505
00:29:59,880 --> 00:30:01,600
Christians who are attempting
these kinds of stories?

506
00:30:01,870 --> 00:30:06,840
Well, that, that is interesting.
It's it's it was done more out of a,

507
00:30:07,110 --> 00:30:10,000
a sense that I didn't want
marcher Lord press to die.

508
00:30:10,730 --> 00:30:15,480
It was struggling fiscally.
And I thought, you know,

509
00:30:15,480 --> 00:30:15,880
we can't,

510
00:30:15,880 --> 00:30:20,610
we have to have the alternative
because there were fewer

511
00:30:20,610 --> 00:30:25,450
and fewer of our major Christian
publishers that were doing books in the,

512
00:30:25,940 --> 00:30:26,290
uh,

513
00:30:26,290 --> 00:30:31,000
speculative category and then
the general market or secular

514
00:30:31,000 --> 00:30:34,840
market, however you wanna
deter, uh, label. It was,

515
00:30:34,840 --> 00:30:39,720
were becoming increasingly
secular and increasingly anti

516
00:30:40,000 --> 00:30:44,680
price. They had never been pro
any in any way, shape or form,

517
00:30:45,180 --> 00:30:49,720
but it had become even more
militaristic in its, uh,

518
00:30:50,120 --> 00:30:54,720
advocacy of anything
non-Christian or immoral or

519
00:30:55,200 --> 00:30:58,560
whatever. And I just thought we need
to have some sort of, uh, alternative.

520
00:30:59,500 --> 00:31:04,120
And I think it was the first two
years we were moving in that direction

521
00:31:04,220 --> 00:31:05,440
and then a, um,

522
00:31:06,350 --> 00:31:11,240
a new startup publisher called Gilead
publishing came along and offered to buy

523
00:31:11,240 --> 00:31:14,160
us and take us into the stratosphere.

524
00:31:14,340 --> 00:31:18,880
And I went along with that
idea and for three years,

525
00:31:19,110 --> 00:31:24,080
Gilead did their level best, but
ultimately had went into bankruptcy.

526
00:31:24,380 --> 00:31:29,200
The funding that they
had contractually were

527
00:31:29,440 --> 00:31:32,640
supposed to receive, never
materialized. Oh wow.

528
00:31:32,640 --> 00:31:35,800
And so they literally ran outta money.

529
00:31:36,220 --> 00:31:40,120
And so I took the company back in 2019,

530
00:31:41,450 --> 00:31:45,170
spent six months trying to figure
out now what we are we gonna do now,

531
00:31:45,170 --> 00:31:46,003
they have it back.

532
00:31:46,430 --> 00:31:51,260
And that's when I decided we
need to make an even bigger

533
00:31:51,260 --> 00:31:55,060
investment and a bigger
splash. There you go.

534
00:31:55,060 --> 00:31:59,900
And that's when I started publishing
in hard cover. Awesome. Which no one,

535
00:32:01,300 --> 00:32:03,610
no one in this market does,

536
00:32:04,600 --> 00:32:09,050
especially in a sliver of the
market called speculative fiction.

537
00:32:09,120 --> 00:32:13,770
I just said, no, we need to go out
there and create something that says,

538
00:32:14,280 --> 00:32:17,450
look, we are as good as to,

539
00:32:17,660 --> 00:32:20,970
we are as good as D we
are as good as Bain books.

540
00:32:21,420 --> 00:32:23,530
We are as good as orbit.

541
00:32:23,860 --> 00:32:28,810
We have the product that is as good
as anything else is. That's out there.

542
00:32:29,190 --> 00:32:33,650
And I would happily put those
books up against them in a row.

543
00:32:34,270 --> 00:32:37,330
And have you read them and
tell me, which is the bad one.

544
00:32:37,880 --> 00:32:41,080
It probably wouldn't be
ours. That's my goal.

545
00:32:41,740 --> 00:32:46,610
So I wanted to make a difference
and it slowly but surely began to

546
00:32:47,080 --> 00:32:50,690
make inroads. I would say
there was a lot of skepticism.

547
00:32:51,000 --> 00:32:54,010
A lot of folks were probably waiting
to see if we would disappear.

548
00:32:54,430 --> 00:32:57,850
And if we would give
up, I'll say personally,

549
00:32:58,010 --> 00:33:01,450
there were probably moments where I
felt like I should cuz the amount of

550
00:33:01,600 --> 00:33:05,650
monetary investment that was being
poured into these, uh, was significant.

551
00:33:05,830 --> 00:33:08,130
But I just believed in it passionately.

552
00:33:08,130 --> 00:33:12,610
And my wife believed in it passionately
and our family, we was just saying, no,

553
00:33:13,450 --> 00:33:18,300
make this happen. See what happens,
see how God will take this. Meanwhile,

554
00:33:18,460 --> 00:33:23,380
you saw again, fewer and fewer
Christian publishers were doing this.

555
00:33:23,980 --> 00:33:27,270
I have a feeling they saw what
enclave was doing and said, oh good.

556
00:33:27,270 --> 00:33:28,390
Now we don't have to.

557
00:33:28,870 --> 00:33:32,350
<laugh> kinda like what I said when
Jeff Erky did his thing is they've just

558
00:33:32,350 --> 00:33:35,830
kinda go, you know, we don't have
anybody who's really championing it.

559
00:33:35,830 --> 00:33:40,070
And our sales reps don't
understand it so fine.

560
00:33:40,490 --> 00:33:43,730
Let them fuss with it. And
if you look at it right now,

561
00:33:44,680 --> 00:33:49,410
there are very few
competitors in our space.

562
00:33:50,880 --> 00:33:52,210
None for adult,

563
00:33:53,030 --> 00:33:56,270
but only a couple for ye is.

564
00:33:56,270 --> 00:33:58,630
So we have a niche that
we have carved out.

565
00:33:59,390 --> 00:34:03,350
Let's take a quick break and learn
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566
00:34:03,350 --> 00:34:04,950
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567
00:34:05,020 --> 00:34:08,710
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called an unexpected adventure.

568
00:34:08,740 --> 00:34:13,230
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do anything to keep his new pal safe,

569
00:34:13,230 --> 00:34:15,110
but a hungry dragon needs to eat.

570
00:34:15,110 --> 00:34:19,510
And the government is hot on
their tail Harley me's scene, et.

571
00:34:19,510 --> 00:34:22,310
And he knows what the government
will do to mythical creatures.

572
00:34:22,520 --> 00:34:25,950
There's no way he's about to let his
newfound friend fall into the hands of an

573
00:34:26,010 --> 00:34:29,670
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setting fires and needing livestock,

574
00:34:29,670 --> 00:34:31,230
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575
00:34:31,860 --> 00:34:35,430
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tummy and spending time with Harley and

576
00:34:35,430 --> 00:34:36,870
his friends after all.

577
00:34:36,870 --> 00:34:39,350
They're the ones who woke her
and called her from her egg.

578
00:34:39,540 --> 00:34:41,390
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579
00:34:41,390 --> 00:34:45,110
she's confined it to the farm where
she's safe, but without sufficient food,

580
00:34:45,300 --> 00:34:47,870
she'll do anything to
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581
00:34:47,870 --> 00:34:49,390
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582
00:34:50,080 --> 00:34:53,910
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583
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584
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585
00:35:01,570 --> 00:35:05,230
You can get all the links to that
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586
00:35:05,230 --> 00:35:09,230
129 or at Laura
haven.com/podcast sponsors.

587
00:35:09,800 --> 00:35:13,670
It was a year ago when,
uh, Oasis came to me,

588
00:35:13,860 --> 00:35:18,440
they had already licensed our books
for audio and they came to me and said,

589
00:35:18,440 --> 00:35:23,040
you know, we really want to grow our
company and expand and diversify and

590
00:35:23,610 --> 00:35:25,480
we believe in what you are doing.

591
00:35:25,820 --> 00:35:28,440
And when you do your
interview with Steve Smith,

592
00:35:28,860 --> 00:35:30,720
one of the other Steves in this crew,

593
00:35:31,100 --> 00:35:36,080
you will hear his vision was it's
very similar it's as if we separately

594
00:35:37,330 --> 00:35:39,350
had constructed our vision.

595
00:35:39,350 --> 00:35:41,950
And then when we came together
and began expressing it,

596
00:35:41,950 --> 00:35:45,710
we realized we were quoting each
other. Mm it's really quite amazing.

597
00:35:46,160 --> 00:35:48,990
Oh, that is so cool. Wish I could
have been part of that conversation.

598
00:35:49,280 --> 00:35:54,230
To have that happen and then convince
the owner of Oasis that this would be a

599
00:35:54,230 --> 00:35:58,940
good investment. And here we are a
year later and I just met with them,

600
00:35:59,880 --> 00:36:03,070
uh, at their offices,
uh, a week ago. And, uh,

601
00:36:03,730 --> 00:36:08,510
had just a fantastic conversation of
where we've come just in the last eight

602
00:36:08,510 --> 00:36:10,390
months since the transition has occurred.

603
00:36:10,690 --> 00:36:15,590
And for them to trust
the existing enclave team

604
00:36:15,700 --> 00:36:18,750
enough to say, just keep
doing what you're doing.

605
00:36:19,320 --> 00:36:22,150
We don't need to be messing
with something that works.

606
00:36:22,530 --> 00:36:27,150
But what we want to do is to bring the
power of our organization to what you

607
00:36:27,150 --> 00:36:28,630
have and raise all boats.

608
00:36:29,340 --> 00:36:34,120
And so the vision is to
become much more effective and

609
00:36:34,520 --> 00:36:35,720
visible in the marketplace.

610
00:36:36,570 --> 00:36:40,880
It will take time as long as our
quality is there. Our covers are great.

611
00:36:41,050 --> 00:36:43,560
In fact, Steve Smith
came up with a great, uh,

612
00:36:43,560 --> 00:36:46,960
marketing campaign for the
library association this summer.

613
00:36:47,700 --> 00:36:51,280
And his headline was you can
judge our books by their cover.

614
00:36:53,160 --> 00:36:56,780
And, uh, we have a new campaign
called take us to your reader.

615
00:36:57,590 --> 00:36:58,423
Oh.

616
00:36:58,810 --> 00:36:59,300
Very.

617
00:36:59,300 --> 00:37:01,620
Nice. You heard it here
first folks, I think.

618
00:37:01,890 --> 00:37:02,700
Yeah. Pick.

619
00:37:02,700 --> 00:37:03,533
Us to your reader.

620
00:37:04,330 --> 00:37:06,820
I even own the domain, so <laugh> okay.

621
00:37:07,220 --> 00:37:10,540
<Laugh> so what domain is that?
Take us to your reader.com.

622
00:37:10,720 --> 00:37:15,260
Yep. And there's nothing there right
now, but it's just, it's just fun to say.

623
00:37:15,790 --> 00:37:17,100
We want to do something.

624
00:37:17,490 --> 00:37:22,300
That's the alternative to the
general market that we can no

625
00:37:22,300 --> 00:37:24,940
longer trust what comes from them. Yes.

626
00:37:24,940 --> 00:37:29,340
To be appropriate for our kids
or even for ourselves. I mean,

627
00:37:29,340 --> 00:37:31,740
there are times where I'll pick up a
book and I'm start reading. I'm going,

628
00:37:31,750 --> 00:37:35,700
oh my goodness sake. I
don't wanna read this.

629
00:37:36,570 --> 00:37:41,460
I don't wanna put this in my mind.
And for someone who's read so much,

630
00:37:42,160 --> 00:37:46,700
the fact that those barriers are
being blown through by current

631
00:37:46,700 --> 00:37:50,470
authors is mind boggling,
absolutely mind boggling.

632
00:37:50,570 --> 00:37:53,710
And so to have someone
come to our books, yeah.

633
00:37:53,710 --> 00:37:57,390
They may not agree with everything
that in the storytelling or, or what,

634
00:37:57,390 --> 00:38:01,670
but it's least going to be within reach.

635
00:38:02,460 --> 00:38:06,200
You know, we're not gonna satisfy
every reader. That's impossible,

636
00:38:06,700 --> 00:38:09,520
but at least we will be an
alternative to what's out there.

637
00:38:09,860 --> 00:38:10,360
You know,

638
00:38:10,360 --> 00:38:15,000
I've often said that the most unrealistic
thing about star Trek is that there's

639
00:38:15,000 --> 00:38:18,120
all these humans with no
religion in the future. And that,

640
00:38:18,230 --> 00:38:21,880
that is what I liked about dune is that
it imagined a future with religion,

641
00:38:21,880 --> 00:38:22,320
but you're right.

642
00:38:22,320 --> 00:38:26,920
It's kind of this weird amalgam and so
many books coming out now though, have,

643
00:38:26,920 --> 00:38:30,240
have sort of doubled down that.
And not only is there no religion,

644
00:38:30,240 --> 00:38:34,480
but there is this religion as Stephen
calls it of sexualism, you know? Yeah.

645
00:38:34,480 --> 00:38:37,090
That's kind of of the
religion and you know,

646
00:38:37,090 --> 00:38:40,130
there's plenty of books with all
kinds of different characters in them,

647
00:38:40,130 --> 00:38:45,130
but some books I've read in recent years
are conversion stories or basically

648
00:38:45,130 --> 00:38:47,850
evangelistic tracks
into this new religion.

649
00:38:47,990 --> 00:38:50,410
And there was one book in
particular, I got on Kindle.

650
00:38:50,410 --> 00:38:53,810
I'm not gonna mention the title, but
I got done with it. And I'm like,

651
00:38:53,810 --> 00:38:55,410
this was so different than what I thought.

652
00:38:55,410 --> 00:38:57,130
Not only do I not wanna read this again,

653
00:38:57,130 --> 00:38:58,650
I wouldn't want my kids to ever read this.

654
00:38:58,650 --> 00:39:00,530
And I just deleted it
from my Kindle library.

655
00:39:00,530 --> 00:39:03,410
And I think that's the only
book I've ever deleted. Um,

656
00:39:03,410 --> 00:39:07,010
usually I'm worried about Amazon deleting
books that I've bought, but this one,

657
00:39:07,010 --> 00:39:07,330
I was.

658
00:39:07,330 --> 00:39:11,450
Like, Zach's method of a book burning
there. You're such a sensor there, Zach.

659
00:39:11,450 --> 00:39:14,570
Digital book burning. There we go.
You heard it here first <laugh>.

660
00:39:14,940 --> 00:39:18,090
So that, that's kind of the, I don't
know if I answered your question there,

661
00:39:18,090 --> 00:39:22,490
Steve, but um, you know,
that's the vision or what,

662
00:39:22,490 --> 00:39:27,480
at least we're attempting to do
theoretically, um, practically it's,

663
00:39:27,480 --> 00:39:32,400
it's a challenge, um, you know,
finding the right kinds of stories,

664
00:39:32,400 --> 00:39:37,240
the right kind of readers, uh,
expanding into ye in early 20,

665
00:39:37,240 --> 00:39:39,880
20 was a big move for me.

666
00:39:39,880 --> 00:39:42,440
We had been doing books that you
could have said were on the edge,

667
00:39:43,480 --> 00:39:47,800
but I didn't want, I just,
I didn't feel that our,

668
00:39:47,860 --> 00:39:51,800
our company could handle the,
uh, the, the distinction,

669
00:39:52,270 --> 00:39:56,370
but then I realized, yeah, we could.
And so we created the enclave escape,

670
00:39:57,300 --> 00:39:59,610
uh, and by the way, visually,

671
00:39:59,610 --> 00:40:02,170
if anybody is curious and you
see our books on a book table,

672
00:40:02,670 --> 00:40:06,690
the difference between the adult
and the Y is the trim size.

673
00:40:08,140 --> 00:40:13,120
So six by nine hard
cover is adult five and

674
00:40:13,120 --> 00:40:17,360
a half by eight and a half is Y
yes, it says that on the spine,

675
00:40:17,360 --> 00:40:19,400
but you can actually
visually see the difference.

676
00:40:19,540 --> 00:40:21,760
And that's because in the general market,

677
00:40:21,900 --> 00:40:24,360
the ye titles are five and
a half by eight and a half.

678
00:40:24,540 --> 00:40:27,000
And the adult titles
are six by nine <laugh>.

679
00:40:27,770 --> 00:40:29,800
We, speaking of the hard
cover size there, uh,

680
00:40:29,800 --> 00:40:33,200
the ye books are gonna feel slightly
smaller, maybe a little bit more, uh,

681
00:40:33,200 --> 00:40:35,960
accessible, a little less weightier,
at least, uh, physically speaking.

682
00:40:36,360 --> 00:40:40,940
Technically. And it it's all a matter
of, you know, on the interior, you know,

683
00:40:40,940 --> 00:40:43,660
the, uh, type setting may have
a little more space in it.

684
00:40:43,660 --> 00:40:48,260
Sometimes our adult titles get
very dense and very long. Um,

685
00:40:48,490 --> 00:40:49,980
yeah, so we, uh,

686
00:40:50,680 --> 00:40:53,700
you have to throw an awful lot of words
on the page so that we're not charging

687
00:40:53,700 --> 00:40:56,140
79 99 for the hard cover. <laugh>.

688
00:40:57,110 --> 00:40:59,340
There's a science to
all this stuff, folks.

689
00:40:59,340 --> 00:41:02,820
And that leads us to chapter
two of our discussion. Uh,

690
00:41:02,820 --> 00:41:04,220
we've already touched on it again,

691
00:41:04,220 --> 00:41:07,980
but why does enclave create Christian
made fantasy and Steve and Zach,

692
00:41:07,980 --> 00:41:12,460
you've both talked about, uh, some of
the, uh, issues in the general market.

693
00:41:12,600 --> 00:41:15,780
And that's what I appreciate
a few times, Steve, when, uh,

694
00:41:15,780 --> 00:41:19,220
you and I have been at different
events and you've been on a panel, uh,

695
00:41:19,220 --> 00:41:22,580
and even some folks that, you
know, I'm sure they very mean well,

696
00:41:22,580 --> 00:41:26,260
but at Christian hosted events and
they will speak for example, about, uh,

697
00:41:26,260 --> 00:41:28,500
all of the diversity in things, you know,

698
00:41:28,500 --> 00:41:31,820
they use good words to describe maybe
some good things that are happening, uh,

699
00:41:31,820 --> 00:41:36,520
in the general market. Uh, but then others
will kind of cheerlead, uh, some of,

700
00:41:36,520 --> 00:41:39,960
yeah, what I call the, the sexualism,
oh, you've got all these different, uh,

701
00:41:39,960 --> 00:41:42,640
identities represented in
the books. And it's so great.

702
00:41:42,900 --> 00:41:46,760
And I remember at least at one
event where you just said, uh, yeah,

703
00:41:46,760 --> 00:41:49,560
I think that's actually one of my
greatest concerns that this is going on,

704
00:41:49,820 --> 00:41:50,760
but I mean,

705
00:41:50,760 --> 00:41:54,600
what are some other challenges then
in the general market that makes it

706
00:41:54,600 --> 00:41:58,880
necessary, uh, to do that thing
that may seem like a corny, uh,

707
00:41:59,240 --> 00:42:00,760
response to some of our listeners,

708
00:42:00,760 --> 00:42:03,080
especially if you've grown up
in an evangelical environment,

709
00:42:03,220 --> 00:42:07,400
but that we argue is still very necessary.
This idea of a Christian alternative.

710
00:42:07,400 --> 00:42:10,880
So long as the stories are made
with excellence and creativity.

711
00:42:11,730 --> 00:42:12,910
Speculative fiction,

712
00:42:12,910 --> 00:42:17,770
like no other genre reflects
the creativity of God.

713
00:42:18,440 --> 00:42:21,470
If you write a mystery
or you write a thriller,

714
00:42:21,480 --> 00:42:23,590
or you write a techno thriller,

715
00:42:23,590 --> 00:42:27,670
you are basing it on
the rules of this world,

716
00:42:28,250 --> 00:42:31,230
the physics of this world,
the way people interact,

717
00:42:31,580 --> 00:42:33,510
it's all taking place on earth.

718
00:42:33,510 --> 00:42:36,430
And all of the other things
that you have related to that.

719
00:42:37,130 --> 00:42:39,630
But in speculative fiction,
you can make it all up.

720
00:42:40,110 --> 00:42:43,700
There's no boundary to the creativity,

721
00:42:44,280 --> 00:42:48,660
but that's why we say it's
informed by a coherent theology,

722
00:42:48,660 --> 00:42:53,220
not expressed by a coherent
theology. There's your difference?

723
00:42:54,030 --> 00:42:58,180
An expression is that you are
actually telling the Christ story,

724
00:42:58,890 --> 00:43:01,310
but I jokingly will say it this way.

725
00:43:01,310 --> 00:43:03,670
And I don't care if I'm
quoted it like this,

726
00:43:03,670 --> 00:43:06,190
but I hope you understand
the humor in the statement.

727
00:43:06,920 --> 00:43:10,110
If Jesus shows up in your
fantasy novel, it's a bad book.

728
00:43:11,570 --> 00:43:13,500
What is he doing here?

729
00:43:15,630 --> 00:43:18,500
He doesn't belong in this
world that I just made up,

730
00:43:19,160 --> 00:43:23,820
but if you place him in the guise
of Aslan, it makes perfect sense,

731
00:43:24,650 --> 00:43:28,030
but take a Jewish individual

732
00:43:29,270 --> 00:43:34,120
from the beginning of 2000
years ago and place him into

733
00:43:34,120 --> 00:43:38,460
a book with white witches.
It's just gonna be weird.

734
00:43:39,110 --> 00:43:40,100
It doesn't make sense,

735
00:43:40,640 --> 00:43:45,420
but I would rather have the
author discover it than have you

736
00:43:45,430 --> 00:43:49,740
as the author point to it
and go see Gandolph is Jesus

737
00:43:50,040 --> 00:43:52,140
and you're going well. No, he is not.

738
00:43:53,520 --> 00:43:57,020
And even in reality,
even in the tol world,

739
00:43:57,960 --> 00:44:00,900
not truly a Jesus figure,

740
00:44:02,000 --> 00:44:04,350
he is a very strong,

741
00:44:04,830 --> 00:44:07,330
powerful force for good.

742
00:44:08,680 --> 00:44:12,900
And he does sacrifice himself, but it
has completely different implications.

743
00:44:12,900 --> 00:44:16,300
If you're trying to find the theology
in, in the Lord of the rings,

744
00:44:16,630 --> 00:44:21,470
we're trying to show that if the world
is saying that you need to look again,

745
00:44:21,470 --> 00:44:23,110
going back to our earlier conversation,

746
00:44:23,240 --> 00:44:25,750
if you need to look to
yourself or your own salvation,

747
00:44:26,330 --> 00:44:29,590
I'm saying that that's not going
to be ultimately satisfying.

748
00:44:29,590 --> 00:44:32,760
Mm-hmm <affirmative>, you're, you're,
you're gonna disappoint yourself.

749
00:44:33,110 --> 00:44:35,000
That's a really good distinguishing mark.

750
00:44:35,000 --> 00:44:37,600
And that it kind of leads
into my next question for you.

751
00:44:37,660 --> 00:44:42,090
One thing I've noticed nowadays with,
even with fantastical stories, readers,

752
00:44:42,090 --> 00:44:44,770
want stories to feel realistic.

753
00:44:45,150 --> 00:44:48,610
And usually that comes down to
character and, and dialogue and,

754
00:44:48,610 --> 00:44:51,200
and things like that. And, you know,

755
00:44:51,200 --> 00:44:56,080
my thought is the most realistic
story that you could create would be a

756
00:44:56,280 --> 00:44:59,840
universe, even a multiverse or whatever,
but a universe that's created by God,

757
00:44:59,840 --> 00:45:01,880
because that's the only
universe that exists.

758
00:45:02,400 --> 00:45:07,300
And so I would expect a story
to have certain laws to it.

759
00:45:07,300 --> 00:45:10,180
Like there there's this, you
know, classic evangelistic track,

760
00:45:10,180 --> 00:45:11,380
the four spiritual laws.

761
00:45:11,960 --> 00:45:15,260
And it starts up by saying just like
there's physical laws that govern the

762
00:45:15,420 --> 00:45:19,300
universe, there's spiritual laws that
kind of govern a relationship with God.

763
00:45:19,300 --> 00:45:22,300
So my question for you is what
are some of the laws like,

764
00:45:22,300 --> 00:45:25,620
like the spiritual laws of
books that you look for?

765
00:45:26,570 --> 00:45:29,980
I am asked what makes
enclave books, Christian.

766
00:45:30,380 --> 00:45:32,520
And the answer is the author does.

767
00:45:32,920 --> 00:45:36,440
Thank you. Yes, Christian May
that's the adjective values,

768
00:45:36,500 --> 00:45:38,960
not just Christian book,
but Christian maid book.

769
00:45:39,130 --> 00:45:39,963
Exactly.

770
00:45:40,050 --> 00:45:44,690
So the author's worldview or
their background and their

771
00:45:44,690 --> 00:45:49,050
understanding then comes into the
expression of the story itself.

772
00:45:49,970 --> 00:45:54,840
If you are trying to write a
theological track and call it fiction,

773
00:45:54,910 --> 00:45:56,920
it's going to be a horrible story.

774
00:45:56,970 --> 00:45:57,803
Oh, absolutely.

775
00:45:58,190 --> 00:45:58,690
Yeah.

776
00:45:58,690 --> 00:46:03,580
Instead you just write an
amazing story and people are,

777
00:46:03,670 --> 00:46:07,260
oh, oh wow. That's so amazing.
And then someone says, well,

778
00:46:07,260 --> 00:46:09,720
where's the Christian part in it. Well,

779
00:46:09,720 --> 00:46:13,280
then you get five or six people together
and they start digging into it and they

780
00:46:13,280 --> 00:46:16,560
go, oh, wow. Did you see
that? I didn't see that. Oh,

781
00:46:16,560 --> 00:46:20,880
that's how I understand it. And the author
might even be in the room going, wow,

782
00:46:20,880 --> 00:46:25,120
I never intended you to think
of it that way, but sure.

783
00:46:25,790 --> 00:46:29,900
Because we each bring our
own story to the story,

784
00:46:31,190 --> 00:46:33,690
our personal life, our
personal understanding.

785
00:46:34,190 --> 00:46:38,960
And so the three of us could
read the same novel and come away

786
00:46:38,960 --> 00:46:42,360
with three different
understandings of its intent,

787
00:46:42,860 --> 00:46:44,480
its purpose and its meaning.

788
00:46:45,300 --> 00:46:49,750
I read the songs of all beyond trilogy
that Stephen law had did many, many,

789
00:46:49,750 --> 00:46:54,030
many years ago. I had waited five, five
years for the trilogy to be complete.

790
00:46:54,570 --> 00:46:59,310
And I waited five years until, and
then I binge read it in one week,

791
00:46:59,530 --> 00:47:01,590
all three massive volumes.

792
00:47:02,730 --> 00:47:05,510
And I remember going through
it at times, going well,

793
00:47:05,510 --> 00:47:08,150
where's the Christian content,
you know, where's the,

794
00:47:08,160 --> 00:47:12,550
where's the allegory because it was it
isn't obvious. It's it's there I guess.

795
00:47:13,580 --> 00:47:15,800
But in the last scene of book three,

796
00:47:15,960 --> 00:47:19,840
he turned the entire
trilogy into an allegory

797
00:47:21,160 --> 00:47:25,430
in one scene. And I wept, I,

798
00:47:25,540 --> 00:47:29,080
I still remember sitting on my couch,
just tears streaming down my face,

799
00:47:29,080 --> 00:47:33,950
going wow. And I was worshiping an author,

800
00:47:33,950 --> 00:47:37,640
had done that to me and
I, it was brilliant.

801
00:47:37,750 --> 00:47:41,120
I suspect that other people would read
the whole thing come to the very end

802
00:47:41,120 --> 00:47:42,040
going well, that was okay.

803
00:47:43,390 --> 00:47:48,160
They didn't see it the way I saw it
because I was bringing a different set of

804
00:47:48,580 --> 00:47:52,080
expectations and understanding to it.

805
00:47:52,650 --> 00:47:56,320
So I've said that to some people, I do
remember one guy coming back and he goes,

806
00:47:56,320 --> 00:48:00,080
I read the trilogy and I'm going,
what did you see? I didn't see it.

807
00:48:00,660 --> 00:48:03,550
That's okay. That's what
fiction does fiction.

808
00:48:03,740 --> 00:48:07,510
It's either gonna entertain you
or it's gonna make you think,

809
00:48:08,320 --> 00:48:13,070
or it's just going to help you
cross a street that you've never

810
00:48:13,070 --> 00:48:13,950
crossed before.

811
00:48:15,070 --> 00:48:19,940
Feel something you've never felt before
and thought something you've never

812
00:48:19,940 --> 00:48:24,320
thought before. That's
what great fiction does it.

813
00:48:24,320 --> 00:48:28,810
Isn't scripture. It's not necessarily
going to change your life,

814
00:48:29,230 --> 00:48:34,130
but it may change how you
think of life through the power

815
00:48:34,130 --> 00:48:38,990
of story and to do
something that nonfiction

816
00:48:38,990 --> 00:48:40,870
can try to teach you.

817
00:48:42,220 --> 00:48:46,440
But instead you have discovered
it yourself as a reader

818
00:48:47,030 --> 00:48:51,080
rather than having it presented to
you in a PowerPoint presentation.

819
00:48:51,340 --> 00:48:54,790
And then you respond to it.
To me, that's where the,

820
00:48:54,790 --> 00:48:57,750
the many of the big differences
are. And that's boy,

821
00:48:57,750 --> 00:49:00,950
don't hear that as a criticism
of nonfiction, cuz it's not.

822
00:49:01,580 --> 00:49:05,590
I think the beauty of nonfiction is
that you can explore an idea like a hand

823
00:49:05,590 --> 00:49:10,510
grenade without fear of it blowing up
<laugh> you can actually go, oh look,

824
00:49:10,510 --> 00:49:12,670
there's a pin. Should I
pull it? Probably not,

825
00:49:12,770 --> 00:49:17,270
but I can sure explore this thing and
oh my goodness, it's a dangerous idea,

826
00:49:17,370 --> 00:49:22,150
but let's turn it upside down and look
at it from the bottom instead of from the

827
00:49:22,150 --> 00:49:25,070
side and let's look at it from
the top, lets pull it apart.

828
00:49:25,070 --> 00:49:29,320
Let's analyze it and see
which pieces we think are

829
00:49:29,320 --> 00:49:33,120
appropriate to discuss. That
is the exchange of ideas.

830
00:49:33,210 --> 00:49:34,400
Fiction is,

831
00:49:34,400 --> 00:49:38,520
does not have that intent fiction
is there to tell a great story.

832
00:49:38,520 --> 00:49:43,110
It's there to entertain. And if you
get some byproduct from it, right.

833
00:49:43,890 --> 00:49:47,050
And here's the ultimate
kicker when you're done.

834
00:49:47,700 --> 00:49:50,730
If you tell 10 other people
about it, it's a great book.

835
00:49:51,620 --> 00:49:54,250
If it's done and you set it
aside going, no, that was nice.

836
00:49:54,430 --> 00:49:58,620
And it's eminently forgettable.
Then it was an okay book.

837
00:49:59,510 --> 00:50:01,370
And I would say for most of us,

838
00:50:01,930 --> 00:50:05,140
most books we read fall in
the latter category. Yeah.

839
00:50:05,140 --> 00:50:10,120
It's the ones we end up talking about
that become the permanent ones that are

840
00:50:10,120 --> 00:50:12,600
on our shelves. And that
become part of our exchange of,

841
00:50:12,650 --> 00:50:14,200
of discussion and ideas.

842
00:50:15,010 --> 00:50:19,040
If we try to do that with every single
book that we publish at enclave,

843
00:50:19,290 --> 00:50:20,720
we drive ourselves nuts.

844
00:50:21,180 --> 00:50:25,280
Our goal is to try to just tell great
stories and create creative ways.

845
00:50:26,000 --> 00:50:27,970
When you have vivid by Ashley,

846
00:50:27,970 --> 00:50:32,330
Bustamente a debut author
in this particular world,

847
00:50:32,330 --> 00:50:33,650
the magic is color.

848
00:50:34,410 --> 00:50:39,310
And so people have a color that is

849
00:50:39,310 --> 00:50:44,070
the power rather than something
else. And it's just so unique.

850
00:50:44,690 --> 00:50:48,870
But Steve, I do want to go
back to something you were
addressing. And that is,

851
00:50:49,050 --> 00:50:54,030
you know, this idea of diversity and Zach,
what you were talking about. Realism.

852
00:50:54,580 --> 00:50:58,070
I always find it funny because people
say, well the books that you publish,

853
00:50:58,140 --> 00:51:01,070
I mean they're, they're clean.
They shouldn't be, there should be,

854
00:51:01,070 --> 00:51:02,910
they should have sex and violence and,

855
00:51:03,090 --> 00:51:05,510
and a lot of curse words
and I'm going really.

856
00:51:06,180 --> 00:51:07,930
So who decides what's appropriate?

857
00:51:08,960 --> 00:51:13,030
We are going to make them such that you
don't even have to ask that question.

858
00:51:14,040 --> 00:51:18,480
There are times where we will
pull back certain romantic

859
00:51:18,550 --> 00:51:21,440
tensions in the editing process. So that,

860
00:51:21,440 --> 00:51:23,440
that is not the most
important part of the story.

861
00:51:24,250 --> 00:51:26,980
It's not a version of
Twilight. Whether it's Wolf,

862
00:51:26,980 --> 00:51:31,420
men are vampires that you're gonna fall
in love with. It's more of the, eh,

863
00:51:31,600 --> 00:51:36,140
you know, they can fall in love.
They can have romantic tension,

864
00:51:36,600 --> 00:51:41,140
but that doesn't drive the story.
These are not romantic fiction.

865
00:51:41,140 --> 00:51:44,100
These are not romantic
science fiction in fantasy.

866
00:51:45,180 --> 00:51:49,620
Although if you read Firebird by a Kathy
tires, you'll have some people say,

867
00:51:50,070 --> 00:51:51,380
we love the battle scenes.

868
00:51:51,380 --> 00:51:54,820
Can't stand the romance <laugh> and you
have other people say, love the romance.

869
00:51:54,860 --> 00:51:58,660
Can't stand the battle scenes. I've
heard both because yep. It does both.

870
00:51:59,510 --> 00:52:01,770
But with a balance, again,

871
00:52:01,770 --> 00:52:06,320
it doesn't drive the story and
with language, oh my goodness sake,

872
00:52:06,460 --> 00:52:08,240
our books are gonna be very clean.

873
00:52:08,790 --> 00:52:13,360
I will not put up with course
language. It's just not appropriate.

874
00:52:13,900 --> 00:52:15,920
The irony is that in one house,

875
00:52:16,590 --> 00:52:20,530
a particular word is used
by everyone in the family.

876
00:52:21,120 --> 00:52:25,690
It's used by mother, father,
daughter, sons, uncles,

877
00:52:25,690 --> 00:52:28,770
aunts, grandpa's grandmas.
You go into another house.

878
00:52:28,770 --> 00:52:32,330
You say that word ends a piece
of soap is stuck in your mouth.

879
00:52:33,270 --> 00:52:36,260
So who decides, which is right? I say,

880
00:52:36,260 --> 00:52:39,940
let's just not make it an
issue. Let's just remove it.

881
00:52:40,240 --> 00:52:45,180
Cuz you can still write a
very angry person without

882
00:52:45,180 --> 00:52:49,060
having to use a letter and then asterisks.

883
00:52:49,600 --> 00:52:52,580
You don't have to do that.
Plus if it's fantasy,

884
00:52:53,130 --> 00:52:57,060
they probably didn't use that word
in that particular story world.

885
00:52:57,520 --> 00:53:02,100
You can kind of come up with other
words that could be, um, more flagrant,

886
00:53:02,400 --> 00:53:05,580
but they're made up words
for that world. Yeah. Um,

887
00:53:05,760 --> 00:53:10,670
you know that it's it's, it's, it's tough.
It's really tough to deal with that.

888
00:53:10,670 --> 00:53:15,310
And then on the diversity side, let's
talk about gender diversity. No,

889
00:53:15,310 --> 00:53:17,870
yeah it they're boys and
girls. There's men and women.

890
00:53:17,870 --> 00:53:19,150
We're just not gonna go there.

891
00:53:19,710 --> 00:53:23,900
And then with racial diversity again,

892
00:53:24,800 --> 00:53:28,810
if that is going to be the driving force
of your story, I'm gonna be saying,

893
00:53:28,810 --> 00:53:33,290
why, what are we trying to accomplish
here? We can have diverse characters,

894
00:53:33,510 --> 00:53:38,330
but we don't have to Lord it
over the rest of the story.

895
00:53:39,040 --> 00:53:41,400
In fact, there was one time, uh,

896
00:53:41,400 --> 00:53:46,020
it was so frustrating and I know I'm
going in on public record here with this,

897
00:53:46,020 --> 00:53:50,340
but it's frustrating to us when we are
trying to make the books in such a way

898
00:53:51,180 --> 00:53:55,950
that you can place the race of the

899
00:53:55,950 --> 00:53:59,990
characters yourself. You don't
even know if they're white,

900
00:54:00,670 --> 00:54:05,420
Asian, African American, American, Indian,

901
00:54:06,090 --> 00:54:10,910
Indian, Indian, you can't
tell. So in other words,

902
00:54:11,650 --> 00:54:15,870
you can interject it because we're not
sitting there describing their facial

903
00:54:15,870 --> 00:54:17,950
features or their coloring.

904
00:54:19,130 --> 00:54:23,000
So then the reviews come out and the
review actually said for one of books,

905
00:54:23,000 --> 00:54:26,530
it presents as white. And I just went, no,

906
00:54:26,530 --> 00:54:29,710
it presents as nothing
that was intentional.

907
00:54:29,780 --> 00:54:30,870
Presents as human.

908
00:54:31,520 --> 00:54:32,353
It exactly.

909
00:54:32,440 --> 00:54:37,190
It presented as human beings who were
interacting with each other in a fantasy

910
00:54:37,190 --> 00:54:39,840
world. It's just frustrating.

911
00:54:39,950 --> 00:54:44,820
When the world is trying
to interject issues

912
00:54:45,090 --> 00:54:50,060
into the creative process that
they weren't doing five years

913
00:54:50,060 --> 00:54:54,940
ago, I then as a publisher and as
overseeing the editorial process,

914
00:54:55,160 --> 00:54:58,480
I'm frustrated by it. Cause
we're trying to say, look,

915
00:54:58,480 --> 00:55:03,160
it's not the point of the story and it's
not that we're being ignorant and it's

916
00:55:03,160 --> 00:55:07,640
not that we're being colorless. We're
just saying, it's not the issue here.

917
00:55:07,640 --> 00:55:10,520
Let's focus on the redemptive
element of this story.

918
00:55:10,630 --> 00:55:15,280
This character's movement through
life. And if you wanna make them Asian,

919
00:55:15,280 --> 00:55:17,640
you wanna make them whatever.
Then go right ahead.

920
00:55:18,700 --> 00:55:22,210
So we're talking a lot about human
beings and what they love to read,

921
00:55:22,230 --> 00:55:26,210
but let's take another break and get
to our third sponsor for this episode,

922
00:55:26,210 --> 00:55:29,370
which focuses on robots because
it is the science fiction.

923
00:55:29,450 --> 00:55:33,650
Novel lost bits by carry needs.
Here is that description.

924
00:55:34,030 --> 00:55:35,090
The last thing,

925
00:55:35,090 --> 00:55:39,850
K 4 0 4 remembers as a happy home with
the human child L whose care is his

926
00:55:39,850 --> 00:55:43,930
primary purpose. So when he wakes up in
a landfill of tossed away technology,

927
00:55:44,230 --> 00:55:46,890
his only thought is to
reunite with his family.

928
00:55:47,120 --> 00:55:51,490
This world is not his own though. It's
a waste wasteland of desolate buildings,

929
00:55:51,490 --> 00:55:55,730
flying metal discs and monstrosities
that keep themselves active by stealing

930
00:55:55,730 --> 00:55:59,090
another bot's power. How
did the world get this way?

931
00:55:59,270 --> 00:56:04,120
And why was he discarded hampered by
imperfect memory and obsolete body

932
00:56:04,120 --> 00:56:08,560
and limited battery life 4 0 4 sets
out to find his home joined by other

933
00:56:08,560 --> 00:56:09,200
castaways.

934
00:56:09,200 --> 00:56:13,240
He faces off against
scavengers and monsters only
to encounter greater threats,

935
00:56:13,610 --> 00:56:16,440
pursued outsmarted and
manipulated on every side,

936
00:56:16,440 --> 00:56:20,560
4 0 4 teeters on the brink of
annihilation. His only chance of survival,

937
00:56:20,800 --> 00:56:24,640
those bits of himself, the
connections he hasn't lost.

938
00:56:25,180 --> 00:56:27,160
Get more information about the hardcover,

939
00:56:27,160 --> 00:56:30,680
paperback or audio versions
of lost bits at Amazon.

940
00:56:30,680 --> 00:56:32,920
You'll find the link in our
show notes for episode one,

941
00:56:33,230 --> 00:56:36,560
nine or at Laura
haven.com/podcast sponsors.

942
00:56:37,010 --> 00:56:38,520
We have a book coming out next year.

943
00:56:39,500 --> 00:56:43,590
That's based in a
futuristic China. Oh cool.

944
00:56:43,610 --> 00:56:44,630
And it's on purpose.

945
00:56:45,020 --> 00:56:47,110
Yeah. It's a Candice CAS book. Yeah.

946
00:56:47,300 --> 00:56:48,790
Yeah. Very purposeful.

947
00:56:49,580 --> 00:56:54,000
And the challenge is that Candace
and I actually had the conversation

948
00:56:54,530 --> 00:56:59,040
is, is, is there going to be cultural
appropriation <laugh> and I told her,

949
00:56:59,040 --> 00:57:00,160
I said, I'm not gonna worry about that.

950
00:57:00,160 --> 00:57:04,090
You just write a great story
because she grew up in Beijing.

951
00:57:04,790 --> 00:57:06,490
She speaks fluent Mandarin.

952
00:57:06,930 --> 00:57:10,610
After she graduated
from college in the us,

953
00:57:10,610 --> 00:57:14,370
she went back to Beijing and
worked there and lived there.

954
00:57:15,270 --> 00:57:18,860
So even in some of the
terminology in the book,

955
00:57:19,450 --> 00:57:22,270
it's true to Chinese culture,

956
00:57:22,800 --> 00:57:27,650
just even the naming of a character where
a person's first name is actually the

957
00:57:27,650 --> 00:57:31,820
last name. So you would
call me lobby Steve.

958
00:57:32,870 --> 00:57:34,980
So that's how it's presented in the book,

959
00:57:35,760 --> 00:57:38,740
cuz that's true to the
culture in this area.

960
00:57:39,240 --> 00:57:42,540
And for those of you who will
enjoy these kinds of things,

961
00:57:42,540 --> 00:57:45,620
when we do the cover
reveal, uh, next month,

962
00:57:46,200 --> 00:57:50,630
look for the Easter eggs on the
front cover because there are

963
00:57:50,880 --> 00:57:52,230
Chinese characters.

964
00:57:52,230 --> 00:57:55,970
That mean something on the front
cover it's done on purpose,

965
00:57:56,470 --> 00:58:00,770
but I know we're gonna
get criticism from secular

966
00:58:00,770 --> 00:58:03,290
reviewers to say, this is
cultural appropriation.

967
00:58:03,290 --> 00:58:06,410
I'm just gonna laugh at them
going you people have no idea.

968
00:58:06,930 --> 00:58:09,170
There seems to be some kind of trap here.

969
00:58:09,170 --> 00:58:12,810
That's often laid in these
conversations of you need diversity,

970
00:58:12,830 --> 00:58:16,050
but don't culturally
appropriate. From my perspective,

971
00:58:16,050 --> 00:58:20,570
it's like the whole point of a book is
to take you somewhere that the author

972
00:58:20,570 --> 00:58:24,930
thinks up and imagines and, and
people are free to read or not read.

973
00:58:25,660 --> 00:58:29,850
Uh, but I, there's just a very
new, moral code nowadays that I,

974
00:58:29,850 --> 00:58:34,700
I just think that's entirely opposite
of the value of free speech that we,

975
00:58:34,700 --> 00:58:37,420
that we can speak. What we want,
and we can listen to what we want,

976
00:58:37,680 --> 00:58:41,340
but there's too many speech
control codes in my opinion,

977
00:58:41,340 --> 00:58:42,820
that are going on with all of this.

978
00:58:43,290 --> 00:58:45,220
It's very frustrating as a publisher,

979
00:58:45,530 --> 00:58:49,500
trying to make these kinds of
decisions in acquisitions. I mean,

980
00:58:49,500 --> 00:58:52,340
I have to sit there and go, should
I publish this? Should I not?

981
00:58:53,170 --> 00:58:56,470
Why should I even have be asking
this question? It's a great book.

982
00:58:57,120 --> 00:59:00,670
Oh my goodness. I mean, this
is gonna blow your socks off.

983
00:59:00,670 --> 00:59:04,510
You're gonna love this story and
not worry about the rest and that,

984
00:59:04,570 --> 00:59:07,630
but those are risks you
take. We hope that, uh,

985
00:59:07,710 --> 00:59:10,790
it will be well received and that,
that issue will just go away.

986
00:59:11,110 --> 00:59:14,790
Steve, I think this is where a
coherent theology in your phrase, uh,

987
00:59:14,790 --> 00:59:16,990
really helps here, uh, because you are,

988
00:59:16,990 --> 00:59:21,800
you're working with a more biblical
expectation of imagination and why

989
00:59:21,800 --> 00:59:25,160
God has given us this gift to
reflect the human experience.

990
00:59:25,160 --> 00:59:28,880
That in a way I think reflect
God's glory back to him,

991
00:59:28,880 --> 00:59:31,600
which is the point of having
the gift of creativity at all,

992
00:59:31,850 --> 00:59:36,720
to show God back to himself, to glorify
him ought to be the purpose. Uh,

993
00:59:36,720 --> 00:59:41,520
but then you get these, uh, these
contrary expectations, both from a more,

994
00:59:41,660 --> 00:59:44,480
you know, biblical culture,
more evangelical culture,

995
00:59:44,690 --> 00:59:48,720
as well as the secular culture.
Like, well, this is not a good story.

996
00:59:48,720 --> 00:59:53,680
That is a moral story. Unless you
have Jesus in the story like by name,

997
00:59:53,680 --> 00:59:56,080
unless you have a specific
conversion scene, you know,

998
00:59:56,080 --> 00:59:59,920
unless there's an altar call at
the end or something like that. Uh,

999
00:59:59,920 --> 01:00:02,680
I see very few of those books
now, but at least in the past,

1000
01:00:02,680 --> 01:00:06,440
that has been a silent expectation
among some well meaning Christians.

1001
01:00:06,850 --> 01:00:11,280
It seems to be on the way out, but often,
as you mentioned, you get this, uh,

1002
01:00:11,280 --> 01:00:15,200
this secular version of that expectation
where this is not a moral story,

1003
01:00:15,430 --> 01:00:18,720
unless you have a summons to be better,

1004
01:00:18,720 --> 01:00:23,320
unless you have a summons to tolerate
this particular gender expression that did

1005
01:00:23,320 --> 01:00:27,640
not exist pre 2014, uh,
unless you have this, uh,

1006
01:00:27,640 --> 01:00:30,880
this view of diversity TM, uh,

1007
01:00:30,880 --> 01:00:34,800
that may be based in part on more
biblical reflections of, you know,

1008
01:00:34,800 --> 01:00:37,320
the human nature, uh,
post Babel dispersion,

1009
01:00:37,320 --> 01:00:40,840
where God has made different people to
make different kinds of cultures and

1010
01:00:41,040 --> 01:00:44,960
reflect him in different ways. But that
are also mixed up in these very worldly,

1011
01:00:44,960 --> 01:00:49,360
uh, secular views of, of diversity
and some certain theories and things.

1012
01:00:49,380 --> 01:00:52,480
And it gets all mixed up in the
imagination. And suddenly, as you've said,

1013
01:00:52,480 --> 01:00:57,120
we've missed the point of the story
as an expression of God's nature.

1014
01:00:57,750 --> 01:01:01,880
I mean, and I look at, uh,
Dan Schwab hour's book, um,

1015
01:01:02,390 --> 01:01:07,000
Maxine justice, galactic
attorney. I mean, it's,

1016
01:01:08,110 --> 01:01:12,320
it's a RO because you have
this failed, you know,

1017
01:01:12,320 --> 01:01:17,280
woman attorney who is representing
aliens, who are suing the earth.

1018
01:01:17,720 --> 01:01:18,120
<laugh>, I.

1019
01:01:18,120 --> 01:01:20,240
Mean, it's better than she Hawk
by the way, folks. <laugh>.

1020
01:01:20,240 --> 01:01:25,120
It's just, it's just hilarious. Oh yeah.
And then she hope comes out. I'm going,

1021
01:01:25,120 --> 01:01:30,040
oh, foie. We had it first. We
had that idea first by a year,

1022
01:01:30,550 --> 01:01:34,550
even when we did our book
for who the sun sings was a,

1023
01:01:35,120 --> 01:01:38,350
an entire land where everyone is blind,

1024
01:01:39,140 --> 01:01:41,310
except for one young boy who can see.

1025
01:01:41,690 --> 01:01:46,360
And that year apple TV
comes out with their TV

1026
01:01:46,360 --> 01:01:50,800
show called C oh, the Jason, which is a
people who can't see. And I just went,

1027
01:01:51,010 --> 01:01:54,560
no, <laugh> we, we were ahead of the game.

1028
01:01:54,730 --> 01:01:56,640
Oh my goodness sake. See.

1029
01:01:56,640 --> 01:01:59,560
This is what I missed. Not subscribing
to so many streaming services,

1030
01:01:59,560 --> 01:02:04,240
no apple TV, no Amazon prime, no
Netflix. Like, I, I feel like a 1980s,

1031
01:02:04,240 --> 01:02:07,320
Christian boycotter now <laugh>
and I'm trying to read more books.

1032
01:02:07,320 --> 01:02:10,680
It's just sort of more of a new year's
resolution than a religious crusade.

1033
01:02:10,900 --> 01:02:14,120
But I did not even know that
there was a, uh, for whom the sun,

1034
01:02:14,500 --> 01:02:16,960
for whom the Sunday, whatever
the title was. I didn't know.

1035
01:02:16,960 --> 01:02:20,160
There was a TV show with basically,
uh, accidentally stealing the premise.

1036
01:02:20,700 --> 01:02:24,480
And it, the irony is that I didn't
know about that show either,

1037
01:02:24,710 --> 01:02:28,080
except it was, uh,
commercials in a super bowl.

1038
01:02:28,710 --> 01:02:32,770
And I'm sitting here watching this super
bowl and this commercial comes on went,

1039
01:02:33,020 --> 01:02:36,690
no, no, no, no, no, no. That's our book.

1040
01:02:38,200 --> 01:02:42,330
That's our book. But there,
from what I understand,

1041
01:02:42,330 --> 01:02:44,690
the TV show is very
different from our book.

1042
01:02:45,280 --> 01:02:47,930
That book for whom the
sun sings has a, uh,

1043
01:02:47,930 --> 01:02:52,690
an extraordinary twist in the end
that, uh, had me screaming at the,

1044
01:02:52,690 --> 01:02:56,850
the screen as I was reading
it first time. So anyway,

1045
01:02:56,850 --> 01:03:01,530
it's kind of fun when you, uh, get to
play in this, this world of imagination.

1046
01:03:02,080 --> 01:03:05,730
Well, we've had a lot of, uh, enclave
authors on fantastical truth, uh,

1047
01:03:05,730 --> 01:03:08,850
including, uh, Wesley, uh, for whom the
sun sings and a bunch of others, uh,

1048
01:03:08,850 --> 01:03:11,650
passed and present and, and,
uh, coming up in the future.

1049
01:03:11,740 --> 01:03:15,050
So we'll be looking forward to hearing
from more of those and following where

1050
01:03:15,050 --> 01:03:19,290
these enclave stories are going. Uh, I
guess that leads us to chapter three.

1051
01:03:19,370 --> 01:03:23,810
Then now what does the future hold, uh,
for enclave and Christian fantasy? Now,

1052
01:03:23,810 --> 01:03:26,690
mind you, I could stay for a
very long time, like just asking,

1053
01:03:26,800 --> 01:03:28,330
trying to pick your brain, Steve,

1054
01:03:28,330 --> 01:03:31,170
about the differences between
Christian made fantasy and you know,

1055
01:03:31,170 --> 01:03:33,690
what's going on with the general
market. Yeah. But you know,

1056
01:03:33,690 --> 01:03:35,050
there's only so much you can do in,

1057
01:03:35,050 --> 01:03:37,450
in cursing the darkness or
critiquing the darkness,

1058
01:03:37,450 --> 01:03:39,530
cuz we're not supposed to curse. Uh,

1059
01:03:39,530 --> 01:03:44,090
and instead lighting these creative
flames and that's something I

1060
01:03:44,090 --> 01:03:45,850
increasingly see a need for, you know,

1061
01:03:45,850 --> 01:03:49,450
even beyond Christian engagement
with popular culture. Um,

1062
01:03:49,450 --> 01:03:52,770
I used to do a lot more articles
reviews of, you know, popular culture.

1063
01:03:52,770 --> 01:03:55,730
And occasionally, uh, people will ask
me to do more of that kind of thing.

1064
01:03:55,730 --> 01:03:56,360
And I'm like, no,

1065
01:03:56,360 --> 01:04:00,130
really we wanna kind of do Laurie now
and draw more attention to Christian made

1066
01:04:00,130 --> 01:04:04,570
stories. And that includes, uh, what
enclave is doing, uh, now with, uh,

1067
01:04:04,770 --> 01:04:08,970
Oasis family media. And we'll hear
more about Oasis from Steve Smith,

1068
01:04:08,970 --> 01:04:12,930
Lord willing, uh, next time. But that
does lead me to ask then about the, uh,

1069
01:04:12,930 --> 01:04:16,330
the sci-fi future for enclave.
Uh, we've talked about this some,

1070
01:04:16,600 --> 01:04:21,010
what is next that you can reveal
for the expanding enclave universe?

1071
01:04:21,810 --> 01:04:22,300
Well,

1072
01:04:22,300 --> 01:04:27,020
during the negotiations
for Oasis to purchase

1073
01:04:27,190 --> 01:04:30,540
enclave, the owner of Oasis asked me,

1074
01:04:30,540 --> 01:04:32,700
why are you only doing 12 books a year?

1075
01:04:33,350 --> 01:04:37,530
And I laughed only well for one
thing, that's all I can afford.

1076
01:04:38,070 --> 01:04:42,850
And we are a very small group
of us and this is about the max

1077
01:04:42,850 --> 01:04:45,960
that we can handle. And so he said, well,

1078
01:04:46,270 --> 01:04:50,800
what is your feeling about
expanding that the number of

1079
01:04:50,830 --> 01:04:53,920
titles? And I said, well,
if that's what you wanna do,

1080
01:04:54,760 --> 01:04:59,010
it's going to be your money.
That's going to be underwriting it.

1081
01:04:59,390 --> 01:05:03,880
And we have to have the
infrastructure sales

1082
01:05:04,920 --> 01:05:05,460
structure,

1083
01:05:05,460 --> 01:05:10,080
all the other production things have gotta
be in place to under underwrite that,

1084
01:05:10,850 --> 01:05:12,480
so in 2023,

1085
01:05:12,570 --> 01:05:17,280
we are going be doing
15 new titles in four,

1086
01:05:18,010 --> 01:05:20,440
we have 19,

1087
01:05:21,800 --> 01:05:26,380
18 or 19 already scheduled. So think
of that. That's two years from now.

1088
01:05:26,380 --> 01:05:31,300
And we already have a
very full plate in 2024

1089
01:05:31,600 --> 01:05:36,380
and it will carry forward from that
into 20, 25 and beyond with the

1090
01:05:36,580 --> 01:05:40,760
ultimate goal to try to do 24 a
year, two a month. And if not more,

1091
01:05:41,120 --> 01:05:44,360
we'll see, we'll see
how God works. And uh,

1092
01:05:44,530 --> 01:05:49,490
if the market is able to absorb
that much content or if they will

1093
01:05:49,490 --> 01:05:53,420
start becoming selective, cuz that's
one of the things you have to ask.

1094
01:05:54,080 --> 01:05:56,270
If you have to pay for
every book that you get,

1095
01:05:56,270 --> 01:06:00,430
then you become selective or you just
simply buy everything because you don't

1096
01:06:00,430 --> 01:06:01,190
wanna read anything else.

1097
01:06:01,190 --> 01:06:05,870
And we have enough to keep you
happy and fulfilled in this

1098
01:06:06,270 --> 01:06:10,560
category of fiction. Uh, you won't
even have to go anywhere else. Um,

1099
01:06:10,950 --> 01:06:15,480
that would be, that'd be a dream. I
don't think people think that way,

1100
01:06:16,030 --> 01:06:20,330
but that's the idea is that we are
going to be expanding our offerings

1101
01:06:20,720 --> 01:06:24,440
slowly, but surely it takes time. I mean,

1102
01:06:24,440 --> 01:06:25,840
I can contract a book today,

1103
01:06:25,840 --> 01:06:30,750
but it's probably not gonna be
out for 18 months cuz it takes

1104
01:06:30,750 --> 01:06:32,470
a while. Even if it's written today,

1105
01:06:33,270 --> 01:06:38,180
I've gotta put it in the
spot where it fits so that

1106
01:06:38,340 --> 01:06:43,270
we can create the momentum
and have everybody

1107
01:06:43,270 --> 01:06:48,110
in place. If you're a new author, how
do you coordinate your cover? Reveals?

1108
01:06:48,110 --> 01:06:52,150
How do you handle your social
media? How do you get the word out?

1109
01:06:52,330 --> 01:06:54,270
And uh, so that it becomes,

1110
01:06:54,850 --> 01:06:59,590
and it lands with an impact from a
sales standpoint and then a readership

1111
01:06:59,710 --> 01:07:03,590
standpoint where people start going, this
was so amazing. Tell their, you know,

1112
01:07:03,590 --> 01:07:08,210
tell their 10 friends, uh, about
Wonderland trials by Sarah Ella.

1113
01:07:08,700 --> 01:07:13,450
My hope is that as we have
proven already that we're here to

1114
01:07:13,450 --> 01:07:17,370
stay, that it will also
begin to attract, uh,

1115
01:07:17,420 --> 01:07:21,710
authors who may have only been looking

1116
01:07:22,160 --> 01:07:27,150
at the general market or have been
looking at larger publishers and realizing

1117
01:07:27,150 --> 01:07:32,030
that we have a place where they can
thrive and be able to tell their stories

1118
01:07:32,030 --> 01:07:36,430
without having editors tell them they
need to put in unbiblical characters.

1119
01:07:36,980 --> 01:07:40,310
I know of one author that was with Simon
and Schuster and he will never publish

1120
01:07:40,310 --> 01:07:44,030
with them again. They told
him this has to happen,

1121
01:07:44,030 --> 01:07:46,230
happen in your books and
you're like, it will not.

1122
01:07:47,500 --> 01:07:52,120
And that's the pressure that the general
market is gonna start putting on our

1123
01:07:52,120 --> 01:07:52,960
authors. And I,

1124
01:07:53,070 --> 01:07:57,600
I wanna be a place where they can come
and be a creative without having that

1125
01:07:57,600 --> 01:07:58,433
fear.

1126
01:07:58,670 --> 01:08:03,230
We've no many homeschoolers that
would love to new books every month.

1127
01:08:03,230 --> 01:08:05,470
We've Steven and I have
both been to these, uh,

1128
01:08:05,470 --> 01:08:08,670
homeschool conferences and you see these
kids walking around with giant stacks

1129
01:08:08,670 --> 01:08:12,950
of books or reading one book as they're
checking out another book and just, uh,

1130
01:08:13,230 --> 01:08:17,000
we're a homeschool family-ish, we're
kind of a hybrid family. And so we,

1131
01:08:17,000 --> 01:08:21,440
we got books everywhere and my wife has
a whole lending system with all these

1132
01:08:21,440 --> 01:08:24,320
other homeschool moms. And
so, oh, that's great. Uh,

1133
01:08:24,320 --> 01:08:28,040
that's fantastic to hear that the, uh,
the titles are gonna keep expanding.

1134
01:08:28,060 --> 01:08:31,640
And we'll try and we'll try to
do a mix of, of ye and adult.

1135
01:08:32,140 --> 01:08:36,280
And someone has asked me
what's the difference? And
I said, well, for one thing,

1136
01:08:36,280 --> 01:08:40,680
the age of the characters is
gonna usually be the first step

1137
01:08:40,970 --> 01:08:45,830
in determining whether it's
Y or adult. But secondly, uh,

1138
01:08:45,830 --> 01:08:50,670
adult novels tend to either be
more dense in their storytelling or

1139
01:08:50,880 --> 01:08:54,750
complex in the multiple, uh,

1140
01:08:54,770 --> 01:08:57,750
sub plots that, that are
wrapped into the story.

1141
01:08:58,590 --> 01:09:03,450
And certain themes can be dealt
with because let's say the character

1142
01:09:03,450 --> 01:09:04,650
main characters married,

1143
01:09:05,300 --> 01:09:10,190
that's going to be
creates a dynamic that a

1144
01:09:10,190 --> 01:09:13,270
15 year old would just
wouldn't understand. Uh,

1145
01:09:13,270 --> 01:09:16,270
they might see it in
their parents if they're,

1146
01:09:16,600 --> 01:09:19,950
if they have parents that
are still together, you know,

1147
01:09:19,950 --> 01:09:24,950
so there's this tension
of what is going to be ye

1148
01:09:24,950 --> 01:09:26,950
versus adult. For example,

1149
01:09:27,140 --> 01:09:30,790
Lisa Bergen did a series, uh,

1150
01:09:30,790 --> 01:09:34,750
called the river of time
a few years back with, uh,

1151
01:09:34,750 --> 01:09:38,030
David C. Cook and now is, uh,
published by Bethany house,

1152
01:09:38,350 --> 01:09:43,320
their ya kind of a time slip
where the characters go back

1153
01:09:43,320 --> 01:09:47,400
in time and then they come forward.
You have all that going on. Well,

1154
01:09:47,400 --> 01:09:51,120
her new series with enclave
it's called oceans of time.

1155
01:09:52,200 --> 01:09:57,100
And so you see the progression of some
of these characters now as adults.

1156
01:09:58,090 --> 01:10:00,280
So we're writing these as adult stories.

1157
01:10:00,850 --> 01:10:02,160
Oh, fascinating. Okay.

1158
01:10:02,170 --> 01:10:06,120
So we're able to carry those readers
who fell in love with the books 10 years

1159
01:10:06,120 --> 01:10:06,920
ago that are,

1160
01:10:06,920 --> 01:10:10,160
they're probably graduated from high
school now or have graduated from college

1161
01:10:10,160 --> 01:10:13,340
now and they could still enjoy them.

1162
01:10:13,760 --> 01:10:16,340
But that's the idea that you have,

1163
01:10:16,360 --> 01:10:20,460
the themes are different nature of
what they're dealing with is a little

1164
01:10:20,460 --> 01:10:20,780
different,

1165
01:10:20,780 --> 01:10:25,620
but there is that subtle shift of
what works and the irony is that many

1166
01:10:25,620 --> 01:10:28,900
adults read Y a just because they're
enjoyable. They're good stories.

1167
01:10:28,900 --> 01:10:29,650
They're fun.

1168
01:10:29,650 --> 01:10:32,820
Well, Steve you've mentioned some
of the risks in the general market.

1169
01:10:32,820 --> 01:10:34,460
I'm curious if you're willing to go here.

1170
01:10:34,460 --> 01:10:39,380
I'm just curious about like some of the
opportunities for growth among Christian

1171
01:10:39,380 --> 01:10:42,820
fantasy novels, as well
as some of the risks, uh,

1172
01:10:42,820 --> 01:10:47,140
that you've seen apart from maybe, you
know, some, uh, extra biblical ideas of,

1173
01:10:47,140 --> 01:10:50,780
uh, the supernatural and angels
and demons and things like, uh,

1174
01:10:50,780 --> 01:10:53,100
in any interest in touching
on like some of the, uh,

1175
01:10:53,100 --> 01:10:55,100
some of the areas for caution, uh,

1176
01:10:55,100 --> 01:10:57,940
for readers who are trying to find
a great book out there. I mean,

1177
01:10:57,940 --> 01:11:00,740
it may say it's a Christian book,
you know, it's made by a Christian,

1178
01:11:00,800 --> 01:11:04,100
but at the same time, especially if
we get more and more stories, uh,

1179
01:11:04,100 --> 01:11:07,500
there will always be a need for parents
and just individual readers, uh,

1180
01:11:07,500 --> 01:11:10,340
to be discerning as they wanna
find a book that's gonna help em,

1181
01:11:10,340 --> 01:11:12,740
glorify God and not just
look into themselves for the.

1182
01:11:12,740 --> 01:11:14,840
Answers and all of that
sort of thing. Well,

1183
01:11:15,410 --> 01:11:20,000
there's no real easy answer
other than to become a

1184
01:11:20,000 --> 01:11:23,040
consistent listener and
reader of Laura Haven,

1185
01:11:23,800 --> 01:11:27,720
you become one of those curators. Uh,

1186
01:11:27,720 --> 01:11:31,200
there's an organization called
redeemed reader, for example. Yes.

1187
01:11:31,200 --> 01:11:36,080
And it idea of who is out there
curating the titles that are

1188
01:11:36,080 --> 01:11:36,800
going to work.

1189
01:11:36,800 --> 01:11:41,710
Now that would mean you're probably
not going to be buying things

1190
01:11:41,710 --> 01:11:44,990
when they're brand new, unless you have
a particular author that you trust.

1191
01:11:45,660 --> 01:11:47,630
This is where you do look at the spine.

1192
01:11:47,660 --> 01:11:50,110
Most people don't know
who publishes a book.

1193
01:11:50,870 --> 01:11:53,400
I love doing this at writer's
conferences. I'll ask.

1194
01:11:53,450 --> 01:11:57,320
So who's Stephen King's publisher.
And of course the room is blank.

1195
01:11:57,320 --> 01:12:01,480
They don't care. They don't read Stephen
King or they say, okay, John Grham,

1196
01:12:01,480 --> 01:12:05,480
again, the room is blank. I said, who's
who, okay, who's max Lucado's publisher.

1197
01:12:06,220 --> 01:12:09,560
The room is blank. I went,
you see, you don't even look.

1198
01:12:10,920 --> 01:12:14,400
So I'm saying you need to start looking.

1199
01:12:15,390 --> 01:12:18,900
So as a parent or as a reader,

1200
01:12:19,870 --> 01:12:24,180
if it says orbit or tour or

1201
01:12:24,490 --> 01:12:29,340
Bain or some of these other, you
know, Del Ray, you're gonna go, okay,

1202
01:12:29,340 --> 01:12:30,540
that's a secular or publisher.

1203
01:12:31,350 --> 01:12:36,330
I'm gonna need to dig around and
find out is this appropriate story?

1204
01:12:36,700 --> 01:12:38,250
Is this something I'm going to enjoy?

1205
01:12:38,790 --> 01:12:42,730
But my hope is that if you looked at
the spine and saw enclave, you'd go, oh,

1206
01:12:43,200 --> 01:12:47,550
I can trust that. I don't have
to worry about it. It used to be.

1207
01:12:47,810 --> 01:12:51,870
And there were, I still remember
this issue back in my, uh,

1208
01:12:51,870 --> 01:12:55,030
early Bethany house days, we had a,

1209
01:12:55,420 --> 01:13:00,340
a sit down at a convention
with eight book sellers

1210
01:13:01,660 --> 01:13:04,520
and we had invited them as Bethany house.

1211
01:13:04,520 --> 01:13:09,440
We had invited these book sellers to
come to us and tell us what Bethany

1212
01:13:09,440 --> 01:13:13,800
house was doing. Right. And doing wrong
in fiction. It was actually a very,

1213
01:13:14,230 --> 01:13:18,120
a very wonderful, very open discussion.

1214
01:13:18,530 --> 01:13:20,590
And a couple of the booksellers saying,

1215
01:13:20,590 --> 01:13:24,310
I used to be able to trust XYZ
publisher. I won't name it,

1216
01:13:24,820 --> 01:13:29,660
but they just did a book
over here that they had sex

1217
01:13:29,660 --> 01:13:33,910
scenes in it as a Christian
publishing company for goodness sake,

1218
01:13:34,590 --> 01:13:38,290
not does that mean I have to read
all those, all their books now,

1219
01:13:38,290 --> 01:13:41,630
before I pu I sell them and then said,

1220
01:13:41,690 --> 01:13:45,430
but we know we can trust Bethany house.
You're not going to sneak something in.

1221
01:13:45,920 --> 01:13:50,430
Mm. And I've never
forgotten that. That was, I,

1222
01:13:50,740 --> 01:13:54,670
I really don't think anyone in that room
at the time would realize that I'd be

1223
01:13:54,670 --> 01:13:55,550
in this position,

1224
01:13:56,710 --> 01:14:01,530
but I've never forgotten that
do not break the trust of your

1225
01:14:01,530 --> 01:14:05,730
marketplace of your reader.
Again, they may disagree.

1226
01:14:05,920 --> 01:14:08,370
They might say that book
wasn't Christian enough,

1227
01:14:08,370 --> 01:14:11,880
or they might say it didn't
do for what I was hoping,

1228
01:14:12,260 --> 01:14:17,120
but it was still reasonably
within the confines

1229
01:14:17,120 --> 01:14:21,400
or the boundaries of what would be
acceptable to that group. You know,

1230
01:14:21,400 --> 01:14:26,160
you can't publish to the most
conservative a group because they

1231
01:14:26,160 --> 01:14:28,440
wouldn't be reading speculative
fiction in the first place.

1232
01:14:28,870 --> 01:14:31,310
Steve, I really appreciate
that. And it's a good,

1233
01:14:31,310 --> 01:14:34,230
quick apologetic of the need existing,

1234
01:14:34,510 --> 01:14:36,790
still existing need for gatekeepers.

1235
01:14:36,860 --> 01:14:39,630
Some people will lament about
the gatekeepers and you're,

1236
01:14:39,630 --> 01:14:40,870
you're technically a gatekeeper.

1237
01:14:41,130 --> 01:14:43,390
And no matter what side
of the gate someone is on,

1238
01:14:43,390 --> 01:14:46,870
I think that there is a purpose
for keeping the gate. I mean,

1239
01:14:46,870 --> 01:14:49,470
it's almost a biblical
concept. Uh, the, the pastor,

1240
01:14:49,660 --> 01:14:52,150
it's not the same thing as
an agent or a publisher,

1241
01:14:52,150 --> 01:14:55,550
but the pastor is supposed to guard
the church from false teaching.

1242
01:14:55,570 --> 01:15:00,470
And that's not just to serve
the congregation. It's in
obedience to Christ. Uh,

1243
01:15:00,470 --> 01:15:01,110
and in your case,

1244
01:15:01,110 --> 01:15:04,670
it's just simply knowing who your market
is and what their needs are. And then,

1245
01:15:04,670 --> 01:15:07,350
uh, helping them serve them
and not just through enclave,

1246
01:15:07,350 --> 01:15:10,190
but through the nonfiction and other
fiction authors, whom you represent.

1247
01:15:10,690 --> 01:15:14,310
And be very cognizant
of theological drift.

1248
01:15:15,660 --> 01:15:20,450
So that things that may have
not been on even a conversation

1249
01:15:20,970 --> 01:15:25,040
15 years ago are now in the
conversation. And you have to say, well,

1250
01:15:25,040 --> 01:15:27,880
where do we land on that? Well,
we're just not gonna go there.

1251
01:15:27,910 --> 01:15:31,200
That's just not gonna be our, our thing.

1252
01:15:31,200 --> 01:15:35,920
We're not an apologetics organization.
We're not a theological publisher.

1253
01:15:35,920 --> 01:15:40,320
We're publishing fiction. Now
on my agent side, goodness,

1254
01:15:40,710 --> 01:15:44,120
I represent apologi like Nancy
Pearcy and William Lane Craig,

1255
01:15:44,120 --> 01:15:48,320
and some of these incredibly
brilliant thinkers

1256
01:15:49,170 --> 01:15:53,870
and let them carry that ball. I
mean, I'm there to support them.

1257
01:15:53,920 --> 01:15:57,590
So they don't have to think about the
business side of their, their, their life.

1258
01:15:58,270 --> 01:16:02,890
And to, to say there are some
really important people out there,

1259
01:16:03,620 --> 01:16:08,610
uh, as thought leaders, we are
not necessarily thought leaders,

1260
01:16:08,610 --> 01:16:10,770
but we would like to
be storyteller leaders.

1261
01:16:11,650 --> 01:16:12,140
Well,

1262
01:16:12,140 --> 01:16:16,540
and I love the picture of you reading
the book by Steven Lawhead and you get to

1263
01:16:16,540 --> 01:16:20,620
the end and it's this allegory
that everything clicks
in your head and it leads

1264
01:16:20,620 --> 01:16:21,700
you into a time of worship.

1265
01:16:21,710 --> 01:16:25,580
So I even like this idea of
storytellers as worship leaders, what,

1266
01:16:25,580 --> 01:16:27,740
what a wonderful experience and,

1267
01:16:27,740 --> 01:16:31,700
and for an author to lead
someone else into worship of God,

1268
01:16:32,190 --> 01:16:36,820
through a story that expresses God's
own creativity and imagination.

1269
01:16:36,820 --> 01:16:38,140
Mm-hmm <affirmative>, I, I,

1270
01:16:38,160 --> 01:16:42,100
how many people I've talked to over the
years since this present darkness was

1271
01:16:42,100 --> 01:16:43,580
published in 1985,

1272
01:16:44,680 --> 01:16:47,980
how they were driven to
their knees in prayer,

1273
01:16:49,340 --> 01:16:54,320
not realizing the nature of principalities
and powers, and you're gonna go,

1274
01:16:54,380 --> 01:16:57,640
you mean you weren't aware before? Well,

1275
01:16:59,040 --> 01:17:04,000
probably hadn't really come up in
polite conversation or from the

1276
01:17:04,000 --> 01:17:07,800
pulpit, or wasn't talked about in
Bible study and then suddenly a,

1277
01:17:08,070 --> 01:17:11,020
a man tells a fantastical story,

1278
01:17:11,920 --> 01:17:16,430
showing the power of prayer
in the supernatural world

1279
01:17:17,820 --> 01:17:22,130
as a warrior, in changing
how things happened,

1280
01:17:22,550 --> 01:17:26,250
you kind of go, whoa, I never thought
of it that way. And of course,

1281
01:17:26,250 --> 01:17:29,570
there's people who pull it apart and
say, it's not theologically correct.

1282
01:17:29,570 --> 01:17:31,770
Or it's not, you know, the, the best.

1283
01:17:32,250 --> 01:17:33,170
World itself.

1284
01:17:33,490 --> 01:17:38,430
<Laugh> exactly. And you just wanna
say, that's not the point. The point is,

1285
01:17:38,430 --> 01:17:43,060
is read it and then
start talking about the

1286
01:17:43,810 --> 01:17:46,540
nonfiction elements that have come out.

1287
01:17:47,640 --> 01:17:51,690
This has been part of the problem, I
think, in all of Christian fiction,

1288
01:17:51,990 --> 01:17:56,660
speculative or not in
trying to describe it to the

1289
01:17:56,660 --> 01:17:57,493
marketplace,

1290
01:17:58,520 --> 01:18:02,470
because most people will ask
about a book what's it about?

1291
01:18:04,750 --> 01:18:09,650
And in a novel people will try to
give its nonfiction application.

1292
01:18:09,680 --> 01:18:12,250
They will say, oh, that's
the adoption novel,

1293
01:18:12,920 --> 01:18:16,150
or that's a book about sex trafficking,

1294
01:18:16,560 --> 01:18:19,990
or that's a book about the civil war

1295
01:18:21,350 --> 01:18:24,130
and you want to go, no,
no, what's the story.

1296
01:18:25,300 --> 01:18:27,870
What is the story? Tell me the story. Oh,

1297
01:18:27,870 --> 01:18:31,510
it's the story of this little child
and doing this. And I was like, oh,

1298
01:18:31,650 --> 01:18:33,070
now that's interesting.

1299
01:18:33,810 --> 01:18:38,390
But when we approach
fiction with a non-fiction

1300
01:18:38,390 --> 01:18:42,580
mentality, we lose its intent.

1301
01:18:43,660 --> 01:18:47,570
Because as I said earlier, we each
bring our own story to the story.

1302
01:18:47,570 --> 01:18:50,890
And the intent sometimes is
different than the author, uh,

1303
01:18:50,890 --> 01:18:55,520
originally had planned. And that's the
beauty of fiction. Whereas nonfiction,

1304
01:18:56,730 --> 01:19:01,140
it's usually pretty well guided
where the author is coming to its

1305
01:19:01,140 --> 01:19:06,000
conclusion and helping you get
there, whether you agree or disagree,

1306
01:19:06,030 --> 01:19:09,400
you're on the journey with them. And you
can, you can see where they're going,

1307
01:19:09,820 --> 01:19:13,520
but with fiction, you're just, you've
turned off that part of your brain.

1308
01:19:13,520 --> 01:19:17,280
And you're just kind of wallowing in the
story at letting it flow through your

1309
01:19:17,280 --> 01:19:20,560
brain and you come away going.
Huh? That's interesting.

1310
01:19:20,840 --> 01:19:23,760
Steve, you mentioned earlier
about people who open a,

1311
01:19:23,760 --> 01:19:26,360
a Christian made novel and they're
like, well, where's the Christ figure.

1312
01:19:26,510 --> 01:19:31,240
I mean, I gotta find Jesus in here
possibly by name, uh, possibly, you know,

1313
01:19:31,240 --> 01:19:33,000
acting just like he does in the Bible.

1314
01:19:33,530 --> 01:19:38,200
My thought there has always been that
the actual Christ figure in any Christian

1315
01:19:38,200 --> 01:19:39,960
made book is hiding in plain sight.

1316
01:19:39,960 --> 01:19:44,040
And it's the author Christ figure
is simultaneous with the label.

1317
01:19:44,120 --> 01:19:47,240
Christine Christi that's Christ
figure, literally right there.

1318
01:19:47,240 --> 01:19:49,560
One who acts like Christ.
And in that case to me,

1319
01:19:49,560 --> 01:19:54,200
any heroic character could be described
as a Christ figure figure or a Christian

1320
01:19:54,200 --> 01:19:55,360
figure. Uh,

1321
01:19:55,360 --> 01:19:59,360
it's not necessarily that Jesus is going
to be found in the pages that either by

1322
01:19:59,360 --> 01:20:03,480
allegory or by name, but the characters
are going to act like Christians,

1323
01:20:03,480 --> 01:20:08,390
if it is a Christian made book
with heroic characters. And so I,

1324
01:20:08,390 --> 01:20:11,310
I think that if someone asks then,
well, what is the book about, you know,

1325
01:20:11,310 --> 01:20:14,990
what is the nonfiction issue? Uh, I think
that's great to reframe the question.

1326
01:20:14,990 --> 01:20:19,110
What is the story about, uh, what is
Maxine justice galactic attorney about?

1327
01:20:19,110 --> 01:20:22,630
What's the theme? The theme
is Maxine justice, hint.

1328
01:20:22,630 --> 01:20:24,950
It's right there in the title.
You know, it's like Harry PTA.

1329
01:20:24,950 --> 01:20:27,470
What's the book about, uh,
it's about Harry Potter? Well,

1330
01:20:27,470 --> 01:20:29,030
Maxine justice about Maxine justice,

1331
01:20:29,070 --> 01:20:32,510
which is why I always appreciate when
a book title is brave enough to put the

1332
01:20:32,510 --> 01:20:36,470
character name right there in the title.
It's like, it's kind of a brave move.

1333
01:20:36,470 --> 01:20:38,670
Like here's an iconic character. Uh,

1334
01:20:38,670 --> 01:20:43,150
the book is not about aliens or the
legal profession or corruption in the

1335
01:20:43,150 --> 01:20:46,590
justice system. As much as
it is about Maxine justice.

1336
01:20:47,580 --> 01:20:48,990
I will use an example.

1337
01:20:49,350 --> 01:20:53,270
Occasionally when I'm teaching this
of John Grisham's novel, the firm,

1338
01:20:54,260 --> 01:20:57,520
not many people remember it now,
cause it's been out so long,

1339
01:20:57,700 --> 01:21:01,520
but may some people may remember the
film or they might have watched it,

1340
01:21:01,520 --> 01:21:03,000
cuz I think Tom cruise was in it,

1341
01:21:03,500 --> 01:21:08,240
but you have a character who
has to decide to make the

1342
01:21:08,240 --> 01:21:13,220
wrong decision and gain
the world in wealth

1343
01:21:13,220 --> 01:21:17,670
and prestige or do the
right thing and have,

1344
01:21:17,670 --> 01:21:20,350
and lose it all and be
under threat of death.

1345
01:21:21,230 --> 01:21:25,320
That is a incredibly
Christian moral decision.

1346
01:21:26,780 --> 01:21:31,630
Most people didn't know at
the time that John Grham is a

1347
01:21:31,630 --> 01:21:33,650
Christian teaches fifth grade,

1348
01:21:33,650 --> 01:21:37,810
Sunday school at his church and has
been on mission trips and all of this,

1349
01:21:37,810 --> 01:21:41,610
they didn't realize that he
had a Christian background
until he wrote his novel.

1350
01:21:41,610 --> 01:21:46,500
The Testament many years later, the
difference is, is that in the firm,

1351
01:21:47,950 --> 01:21:49,890
the man makes the right decision.

1352
01:21:50,980 --> 01:21:55,450
He chooses to do the right thing and
lose it all and be under a whatever,

1353
01:21:55,690 --> 01:21:59,150
whatever, but you're not
told why, in my opinion,

1354
01:21:59,870 --> 01:22:04,680
what would make the novel, a Christian
novel and I'm using air quotes,

1355
01:22:04,710 --> 01:22:07,760
a Christian novel is if we understood why,

1356
01:22:08,720 --> 01:22:13,650
what was the motivation in the
character for making that choice?

1357
01:22:14,230 --> 01:22:17,410
Was there something in his
background, in his psyche,

1358
01:22:17,410 --> 01:22:22,290
in his understanding of life
and it could it be that he was a

1359
01:22:22,640 --> 01:22:26,770
Christ follower? We don't know
it's completely missing in book.

1360
01:22:27,690 --> 01:22:29,460
That was not John G's intent.

1361
01:22:29,680 --> 01:22:33,500
And of course there's certain scenes that
would not be appropriate in a book in

1362
01:22:33,500 --> 01:22:37,350
the evangelical market, cetera, et
cetera, et cetera. But my point is,

1363
01:22:37,350 --> 01:22:38,190
theoretically,

1364
01:22:39,160 --> 01:22:43,350
we are talking about the difference
where you have a story that ha creates a

1365
01:22:43,350 --> 01:22:48,290
moral choice and the author
makes the correct or the

1366
01:22:48,290 --> 01:22:51,410
character makes the correct
choice. But in my opinion,

1367
01:22:52,470 --> 01:22:56,560
a Christian novel will
somehow let you know why.

1368
01:22:56,990 --> 01:23:01,640
Yeah. What is it in that now in fantasy
that's a little harder. Cause you know,

1369
01:23:01,640 --> 01:23:06,440
there may not be church that may
not exist in world that has been

1370
01:23:06,440 --> 01:23:09,720
created in this particular story world,

1371
01:23:10,140 --> 01:23:14,520
but there's got to be some redemptive
elements that come through where you can

1372
01:23:14,520 --> 01:23:15,040
see, oh,

1373
01:23:15,040 --> 01:23:19,840
this person is of high moral
fiber and they make their

1374
01:23:20,000 --> 01:23:20,960
decisions based on that.

1375
01:23:21,410 --> 01:23:26,020
That's a perfect circle back to the
title of this episode about why does

1376
01:23:26,020 --> 01:23:29,260
enclave publishing create
Christian fantastical fiction?

1377
01:23:29,280 --> 01:23:34,140
And now I think we know a little bit
more about why currently we've got one

1378
01:23:34,140 --> 01:23:36,820
book a month coming out, as you
mentioned, Steve, next year,

1379
01:23:36,820 --> 01:23:39,980
there's gonna be 15, uh,
Lord willing after that, uh,

1380
01:23:39,980 --> 01:23:44,260
even more and possibly with that
final goal of two new books per month.

1381
01:23:44,680 --> 01:23:48,380
And each one of course, thanks
to Oasis is also getting a, uh,

1382
01:23:48,380 --> 01:23:49,620
audio book as well.

1383
01:23:49,630 --> 01:23:54,220
So if you're not able to read so much
as listen to your favorite books, uh,

1384
01:23:54,220 --> 01:23:55,820
you can get that, uh, through the, uh,

1385
01:23:55,820 --> 01:23:59,700
audio book version and that's
a simultaneous release,
right? It is same days.

1386
01:23:59,700 --> 01:24:01,740
The hardcover drops, the audio book drops.

1387
01:24:01,970 --> 01:24:04,580
It's it's a lot of work. Oh my goodness.

1388
01:24:04,810 --> 01:24:05,660
I cannot imagine.

1389
01:24:06,300 --> 01:24:09,540
<Laugh> and it's, uh, it's a little
challenging when you have, uh,

1390
01:24:09,540 --> 01:24:11,380
books that are 140,000 words,

1391
01:24:11,990 --> 01:24:15,660
as you have to realize it's
an hour per 10,000 words.

1392
01:24:16,470 --> 01:24:21,150
So that's a lot of recording,
uh, that has to be done and have,

1393
01:24:21,150 --> 01:24:23,150
have it in the production schedule.

1394
01:24:23,880 --> 01:24:26,670
So we're having to work that in,

1395
01:24:26,670 --> 01:24:31,430
even into our expectations for a book
to be finished so that we can have it

1396
01:24:31,550 --> 01:24:32,383
ready.

1397
01:24:32,600 --> 01:24:36,510
It has to be completely copyedited and
proofread before we even get it to the

1398
01:24:36,510 --> 01:24:40,230
audio type people. So we
can't be like a, um, you know,

1399
01:24:40,230 --> 01:24:42,350
an indie author that writes their book,

1400
01:24:42,350 --> 01:24:45,150
gets it proof and then
publishes it on Thursday.

1401
01:24:45,610 --> 01:24:47,480
There's we just has,

1402
01:24:47,480 --> 01:24:51,920
you have to back it up because there's
an entirely different other process that

1403
01:24:51,920 --> 01:24:53,640
has to be added into the, the deal.

1404
01:24:53,780 --> 01:24:58,740
And Oasis is still one of
the few audio publishers

1405
01:24:58,740 --> 01:25:00,500
that still does CDs.

1406
01:25:01,060 --> 01:25:04,370
They actually do physical clamshell,

1407
01:25:05,290 --> 01:25:07,570
physical CD audio, CDs
of people want them.

1408
01:25:08,170 --> 01:25:12,230
And it's amazing how much they continue
to sell every month in their catalog.

1409
01:25:12,230 --> 01:25:14,670
They've got 2000 audios in their catalog.

1410
01:25:14,670 --> 01:25:18,110
Incredible. I look forward to
finding out more about that, uh.

1411
01:25:18,110 --> 01:25:20,670
With they're doing the
entire Edgar rice burs, um,

1412
01:25:21,060 --> 01:25:25,150
collection in audio and they've
never been done in audio to before.

1413
01:25:25,150 --> 01:25:26,350
And so they're doing all of those.

1414
01:25:26,660 --> 01:25:28,350
Really now. Okay. Yeah.

1415
01:25:28,350 --> 01:25:32,710
So like the books that you
read or princess and Mars
or any, any of them? Yeah.

1416
01:25:32,710 --> 01:25:33,310
All of us. Okay.

1417
01:25:33,310 --> 01:25:37,910
So we've got 20 some out of them done
already in cooperation with the burrows

1418
01:25:37,910 --> 01:25:39,590
estate. So they're pretty cool people.

1419
01:25:40,060 --> 01:25:42,390
That's fantastic. Well,
we'll look forward to, uh,

1420
01:25:42,390 --> 01:25:45,350
getting at least one of those
cool people in the studio for, uh,

1421
01:25:45,350 --> 01:25:50,350
the next episode here in this Steve
saga, uh, Steve lobby, you can find, uh,

1422
01:25:50,350 --> 01:25:54,830
your agency@stevelobby.com
course enclave publishing

1423
01:25:54,830 --> 01:25:58,910
enclave, publishing.com. We'll include
all those links in the show notes. Uh,

1424
01:25:58,910 --> 01:26:02,910
any other action items, uh,
for our faithful listeners, uh,

1425
01:26:03,000 --> 01:26:04,480
before we send you back down the tunnel.

1426
01:26:04,900 --> 01:26:08,760
Buy everything, we got, keep
us in business <laugh>, um,

1427
01:26:10,450 --> 01:26:12,880
um, being facetious. But I, I,

1428
01:26:13,170 --> 01:26:17,360
we do truly do everything
solely DEO Gloria

1429
01:26:17,860 --> 01:26:22,200
for the glory of God. This is amen that
this is not to put us on any pedestal.

1430
01:26:22,650 --> 01:26:27,400
We have the intent of trying to expand and

1431
01:26:28,200 --> 01:26:33,090
grow God's kingdom through
storytelling in a unique category

1432
01:26:34,130 --> 01:26:39,000
in a way that no one else on this planet
is doing. And I just think that's a,

1433
01:26:39,010 --> 01:26:40,520
uh, a wonderful,

1434
01:26:40,520 --> 01:26:44,280
wonderful mission and
opportunity for us all.

1435
01:26:44,470 --> 01:26:46,000
Well, thanks for joining us, Steve.

1436
01:26:46,000 --> 01:26:50,840
And hopefully we get to see more
books that show the imagination of

1437
01:26:50,840 --> 01:26:53,880
God, the creativity of
God, not the literal Jesus,

1438
01:26:53,880 --> 01:26:58,000
literally showing up in someone's life,
but working through the author to, uh,

1439
01:26:58,180 --> 01:27:01,000
demonstrate the universe that God's made,

1440
01:27:01,000 --> 01:27:04,120
the laws that he's made and sort of
giving that little peak, you know,

1441
01:27:04,150 --> 01:27:07,640
into the Christian worldview a
little bit. But I like what you said,

1442
01:27:07,640 --> 01:27:09,440
that we gotta focus on stories. We,

1443
01:27:09,440 --> 01:27:13,980
we gotta focus on the characters and
just the experience of the reader of

1444
01:27:13,980 --> 01:27:15,540
entering a new world. So, um,

1445
01:27:15,540 --> 01:27:19,620
I can't wait to enter more new worlds
from enclave. Thanks for joining us today.

1446
01:27:19,950 --> 01:27:21,900
Oh, it was a pleasure
of mine. Thank you much.

1447
01:27:26,010 --> 01:27:30,620
Well, I love Steve's line there.
Take us to your reader. So Steven,

1448
01:27:30,620 --> 01:27:34,500
I think we've got some messages in the
com station. So take us to our listeners.

1449
01:27:34,690 --> 01:27:38,620
Absolutely. Lots of folks been
excited about this. Steve saga,

1450
01:27:38,620 --> 01:27:42,980
it's been shared by Oasis and enclave
and other allies in this quest for the

1451
01:27:42,980 --> 01:27:44,860
best Christian made fantastical fiction.

1452
01:27:45,280 --> 01:27:49,620
One comment comes from Lindsay Luellen
who says about the Steve Raza interview

1453
01:27:49,620 --> 01:27:52,380
part one of the Steve saga.
It was a great interview,

1454
01:27:52,380 --> 01:27:53,980
loved the behind the scenes,

1455
01:27:53,980 --> 01:27:56,820
look into the library system and
how they curate their selection.

1456
01:27:56,970 --> 01:28:01,420
Plus the geeky sci-fi space, opera
chat very much agreed with that.

1457
01:28:01,420 --> 01:28:02,540
There Lindsay writer,

1458
01:28:02,540 --> 01:28:07,540
Vanessa also says the Steve saga
sounds info-packed indeed it is.

1459
01:28:07,540 --> 01:28:09,180
And we aren't even finished yet. Uh,

1460
01:28:09,180 --> 01:28:11,620
so far we're about two thirds
of the way into the saga.

1461
01:28:11,690 --> 01:28:14,380
Stay tuned for a preview
of our next episode.

1462
01:28:14,380 --> 01:28:16,860
And will this be the
end of the Steve saga?

1463
01:28:16,860 --> 01:28:19,260
Maybe there may be more we'll have to see.

1464
01:28:19,290 --> 01:28:23,620
Well, and as Steve lobby said, great
fiction helps you cross the street.

1465
01:28:23,620 --> 01:28:26,860
You've never crossed before.
So to you, our listener,

1466
01:28:26,860 --> 01:28:30,620
we'd love to hear what is a book that
helped you cross a new street and just

1467
01:28:30,620 --> 01:28:32,340
experienced a whole new world in,

1468
01:28:32,340 --> 01:28:37,100
in ways you never thought you could send
us a note to podcast Laura haven.com

1469
01:28:37,410 --> 01:28:40,700
with your answer to that question,
or any thoughts on this episode,

1470
01:28:41,040 --> 01:28:43,540
tag us on social media,
just look for Laura Haven,

1471
01:28:43,590 --> 01:28:46,420
or if you are a member
of the Lord Haven Guild,

1472
01:28:46,920 --> 01:28:51,740
you can comment in the super
secret channel just for fantastical

1473
01:28:51,740 --> 01:28:53,300
truth on there. Send us a note.

1474
01:28:53,450 --> 01:28:57,060
Speaking of said Guild, you
can join this Guild for free,

1475
01:28:57,060 --> 01:28:58,860
but only by subscribing
free to Lord Haven.

1476
01:28:58,860 --> 01:29:03,280
So just go to Lord haven.com and put your
email address in the box that pops up.

1477
01:29:03,400 --> 01:29:05,240
We've just started our book west.

1478
01:29:05,240 --> 01:29:07,880
We do those every month and
this new one is for the Hobbit,

1479
01:29:07,880 --> 01:29:12,040
the classic fantasy by J R Tolkin.
We have gone on an adventure,

1480
01:29:12,040 --> 01:29:16,200
but if you stayed behind to try to pack
your handkerchief or something else,

1481
01:29:16,200 --> 01:29:18,240
that is very Hoy. No worries.

1482
01:29:18,240 --> 01:29:23,120
You can run leap the fences storm into
the wilds and catch up with our party

1483
01:29:23,120 --> 01:29:28,080
of dwarves led by a very sporadic wizard.
We're gonna face down Golans and cave,

1484
01:29:28,080 --> 01:29:31,400
trolls and wags, and all kinds of
things. Just go to Laura haven.com,

1485
01:29:31,600 --> 01:29:32,880
enter email address,

1486
01:29:32,880 --> 01:29:36,240
and we will send you the secret
invitation to join the Laura Haven Guild.

1487
01:29:37,210 --> 01:29:38,940
Next on fantastical truth.

1488
01:29:39,410 --> 01:29:44,340
Join us for our thrilling conclusion
to the Steve saga. For this finale,

1489
01:29:44,340 --> 01:29:48,540
you will enjoy amazing adventures of
yesterday year in riveting recorded form.

1490
01:29:48,700 --> 01:29:51,420
There will be more spaceships and dragons.

1491
01:29:51,560 --> 01:29:55,620
You might even soar high above the jungles
of Christian publishing on the back

1492
01:29:55,620 --> 01:29:59,660
of, uh, sky turtle. Yes, indeed.
Our third and final Steve,

1493
01:29:59,660 --> 01:30:01,420
at least for now Steve Smith,

1494
01:30:01,680 --> 01:30:06,540
the president of Oasis family media
will arrive to share more about the

1495
01:30:06,740 --> 01:30:11,240
Oasis and what is coming next
in this world. Meanwhile,

1496
01:30:11,240 --> 01:30:13,800
perhaps you've never heard
of enclave publishing,

1497
01:30:13,800 --> 01:30:17,640
perhaps you're interested in more of this
behind the scenes work that goes into

1498
01:30:17,640 --> 01:30:20,440
making these amazing
Christian fantastical stories.

1499
01:30:20,960 --> 01:30:23,520
We're going to have more
conversations with those others,

1500
01:30:23,520 --> 01:30:27,240
regardless of whether they're named Steve
going forward on fantastical truth and

1501
01:30:27,240 --> 01:30:27,760
at Laura Haven.

1502
01:30:27,760 --> 01:30:31,480
And we thank God for these women and
men who are making these stories,

1503
01:30:31,480 --> 01:30:35,320
not just for entertainment or
edification, but for the glory of God,

1504
01:30:35,320 --> 01:30:39,720
practicing imagination to worship
him. We want to join in that goal.

1505
01:30:39,720 --> 01:30:42,680
As we continue to seek and
find his fantastical truth.