1 00:00:00,490 --> 00:00:05,260 This week fans will be fixing to fight. This includes many Christian fans. 2 00:00:05,260 --> 00:00:09,100 Unfortunately we won't say what they'll be fighting about except to say the 3 00:00:09,100 --> 00:00:11,500 topic this week is prime for debate. 4 00:00:11,880 --> 00:00:15,500 That's like many topics that Christians dispute, not just relating to politics, 5 00:00:15,500 --> 00:00:19,540 but relating to the fantastical stories we enjoy together. Meanwhile, 6 00:00:19,540 --> 00:00:21,020 in the lower Haven Guild, 7 00:00:21,640 --> 00:00:25,300 we are enjoying so far Lord willing a respite from those clashes. 8 00:00:25,400 --> 00:00:29,420 And we want to keep following our code of honor that applies to all members. 9 00:00:30,160 --> 00:00:34,180 How can Christian fans follow such honor codes wherever they go and wherever 10 00:00:34,180 --> 00:00:35,013 they debate. 11 00:00:39,360 --> 00:00:41,490 Welcome back to fantastical truth. 12 00:00:41,590 --> 00:00:45,730 The hopefully peaceful podcast from Laura Haven in which we explore fantastical 13 00:00:45,730 --> 00:00:48,850 stories for God's glory and apply their meanings to the real world. 14 00:00:48,860 --> 00:00:52,570 Jesus calls us to serve I'm me, Steve, me Burnett. I published Laura Haven. 15 00:00:52,850 --> 00:00:53,210 I also, 16 00:00:53,210 --> 00:00:56,610 co-authored a non-fiction book about fiction called the pop culture parents. 17 00:00:57,190 --> 00:01:01,450 And I'm Zachary Russell. And as a native Texan, we call it wrestling. 18 00:01:01,750 --> 00:01:03,770 And this is episode 1 27. 19 00:01:03,950 --> 00:01:07,170 Can a code of honor help Christian unity in creative groups. 20 00:01:07,880 --> 00:01:08,470 Zach, uh, 21 00:01:08,470 --> 00:01:12,050 we seem to have accidentally made a series for the summer here on the podcast, 22 00:01:12,350 --> 00:01:15,330 uh, which I sort of retroactively called a hot topics. 23 00:01:15,670 --> 00:01:18,170 Not every episode over the summer was about a hot topic, 24 00:01:18,230 --> 00:01:19,410 but plenty of them were. 25 00:01:19,590 --> 00:01:23,690 So now we're exiting the summer heat and I thought it would be just a great time 26 00:01:23,750 --> 00:01:27,650 to make a hot topic episode about the very topic of hot topics. 27 00:01:27,650 --> 00:01:29,410 If you can say that 13 times fast, 28 00:01:29,410 --> 00:01:32,090 having nothing to do with a particular geekish retailer, 29 00:01:32,620 --> 00:01:36,170 we're heading into a couple of other sagas in September and October. 30 00:01:36,630 --> 00:01:39,890 So I guess you could call this the sort of incidental grand finale to all those 31 00:01:39,890 --> 00:01:40,723 hot topics. 32 00:01:41,040 --> 00:01:43,530 Yeah, well, this is good timing. I mean, here in Texas, 33 00:01:43,540 --> 00:01:47,170 we've had such a big drought for months, and then all of a sudden we, 34 00:01:47,230 --> 00:01:51,010 the heavens opened this past week. We had rain and thunder and lightning, 35 00:01:51,010 --> 00:01:53,650 in fact, Naomi and I were out last night. And, uh, 36 00:01:53,650 --> 00:01:57,090 we were about to walk to the car and this gigantic thunderstorm with tons of 37 00:01:57,090 --> 00:01:59,450 lightning just hit. That was fun. Well, 38 00:01:59,510 --> 00:02:03,010 it was fun for her cuz she always likes those movies where they run in the rain 39 00:02:03,010 --> 00:02:05,410 and kiss. And I was like, I don't wanna get electrocuted. 40 00:02:06,070 --> 00:02:09,450 And I think that's a good analogy for what may be about the hit there's there's 41 00:02:09,450 --> 00:02:13,250 these thunderstorms on the horizon that are kind of inching their way forward. 42 00:02:13,390 --> 00:02:15,130 And uh, yes, there's, 43 00:02:15,130 --> 00:02:19,570 they're full of danger for Christians who are in several fandoms right now. 44 00:02:19,920 --> 00:02:23,010 Well the right kind of thunderstorm can be refreshing. 45 00:02:23,030 --> 00:02:27,130 It can relieve the drought. It can give people a chance to grow, uh, 46 00:02:27,150 --> 00:02:28,930 not just get hit by lightning. So, uh, 47 00:02:28,930 --> 00:02:33,290 hopefully we're gonna have more refreshing rain than electrifying heat in this 48 00:02:33,290 --> 00:02:34,130 episode. Uh, 49 00:02:34,130 --> 00:02:36,850 which of course is why we're gonna get to our concession stand in a moment, 50 00:02:36,850 --> 00:02:41,210 switching metaphors from weather to food. But first, uh, speaking of, uh, 51 00:02:41,210 --> 00:02:44,890 weather, or we're gonna get to our first sponsor for this episode once again, 52 00:02:44,890 --> 00:02:48,730 which is enclave publishing and the novel blood secrets, uh, 53 00:02:48,730 --> 00:02:51,970 currently the newest title from enclave by Morgan Bussy. 54 00:02:51,970 --> 00:02:56,130 Here's the cover description. Not everyone wants to see the world saved. 55 00:02:56,480 --> 00:02:59,010 Time is running out. 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Meanwhile, 60 00:03:11,800 --> 00:03:15,000 cast struggles with the idea that she is possibly the savior of the world, 61 00:03:15,400 --> 00:03:18,080 a world she is not sure is worth saving. 62 00:03:18,670 --> 00:03:21,200 Enclave publishing is the publisher of blood secrets, 63 00:03:21,200 --> 00:03:25,200 which is the exciting second book in the Skyward series by Christy award 64 00:03:25,200 --> 00:03:26,600 finalist Morgan Bussy. 65 00:03:26,610 --> 00:03:30,920 She's the winner of the sailor inspi readers choice and Carol awards 66 00:03:31,500 --> 00:03:33,880 now available wherever outstanding books are sold. 67 00:03:34,030 --> 00:03:37,160 It's also available in ebook and in audio book for Oasis audio, 68 00:03:37,650 --> 00:03:41,720 visit enclave publishing.com for more information on blood secrets and other 69 00:03:42,000 --> 00:03:44,920 exciting titles, you can find all those links currently at top. 70 00:03:44,940 --> 00:03:48,640 Our podcast sponsors page Laura haven.com/podcast sponsors, 71 00:03:48,900 --> 00:03:53,280 or get the basic link of top our show notes for episode one. Zach, 72 00:03:53,280 --> 00:03:56,640 are you hungry? Cause we had a big, uh, pod style concession stand, uh, 73 00:03:56,640 --> 00:03:59,800 last week with Kevin McCreary talking about Christian cringe. Uh, 74 00:03:59,800 --> 00:04:01,560 I think there's still some leftovers. Uh, 75 00:04:01,560 --> 00:04:03,440 some of those are even good one week later. 76 00:04:03,580 --> 00:04:06,120 So I've gotten those outta the fridge put in the microwave. 77 00:04:06,560 --> 00:04:10,040 some of them had to go in the oven, uh, at four 50 degrees Fahrenheit. 78 00:04:10,100 --> 00:04:14,320 So I think they're just about ready for us to pull off the aluminum foil and see 79 00:04:14,320 --> 00:04:15,480 what cheesy goodness awaits. 80 00:04:15,910 --> 00:04:18,280 Yeah. You know, just based on the timing of this alone, 81 00:04:18,400 --> 00:04:20,640 I wonder if there's some listeners out there thinking, 82 00:04:20,640 --> 00:04:23,680 are they gonna talk about football because isn't that the big thing that people 83 00:04:23,680 --> 00:04:26,120 debate about around this time of the year, but no, 84 00:04:26,120 --> 00:04:27,360 this is not a football podcast. 85 00:04:28,030 --> 00:04:32,280 This is a podcast about Christian fiction and other sorts of pop culture. 86 00:04:32,540 --> 00:04:36,720 And that's what we're gonna be diving into sort of, not indirectly, 87 00:04:36,800 --> 00:04:40,720 I should say because there's a lot of controversies about a certain fandom right. 88 00:04:40,720 --> 00:04:44,600 Now. Yeah. That leads to the first, uh, concession the one I had planned anyway, 89 00:04:44,600 --> 00:04:47,960 the reason why we're revisiting this topic now and not just to incidentally cap 90 00:04:47,980 --> 00:04:51,320 off a summer of hunt topics, but because it turns out, uh, 91 00:04:51,320 --> 00:04:54,680 I was looking at the calendar and the week that this episode releases Lord 92 00:04:54,680 --> 00:04:55,480 willing, uh, 93 00:04:55,480 --> 00:04:58,800 there's gonna be another thing that releases that we've just kind of ignored 94 00:04:58,800 --> 00:05:01,840 here. Maybe tossed a few little barbs its direction, 95 00:05:02,220 --> 00:05:05,880 but I don't want to be aggressive about a series that, uh, 96 00:05:05,880 --> 00:05:09,320 however does seem to have been made. At least in terms of the marketing Zach, 97 00:05:09,820 --> 00:05:13,280 uh, has, has, has been made to polarize a fan base. 98 00:05:13,280 --> 00:05:17,720 Like some of the marketing choices they made seem designed to dis unify rather 99 00:05:17,720 --> 00:05:20,640 than unify. So some of that I don't think, uh, 100 00:05:20,700 --> 00:05:24,240 is the fan's fault and yet no matter who started it, uh, 101 00:05:24,240 --> 00:05:28,520 Christians need to have good codes of honor based in scripture to know how to 102 00:05:28,520 --> 00:05:31,960 finish it or avoid it or whatever your response is to that kind of hot topic. 103 00:05:32,060 --> 00:05:35,760 So that's why we're talking about it now. Uh, however like many of our episodes, 104 00:05:35,760 --> 00:05:37,840 we do want this theme to be evergreen. Uh, 105 00:05:37,840 --> 00:05:39,720 no matter what time you listen to this episode, 106 00:05:39,720 --> 00:05:43,000 there's probably some fan dispute going on out there. Uh, 107 00:05:43,000 --> 00:05:45,920 usually involving Christians in some kind of creative group, 108 00:05:45,920 --> 00:05:48,000 whether it's an in person group, uh, 109 00:05:48,000 --> 00:05:51,480 or more likely some kind of social media circles of which you're a part. 110 00:05:51,660 --> 00:05:56,280 So this episode should apply to name the dispute of your choice. Uh, 111 00:05:56,280 --> 00:05:59,290 also this episode is a spiritual sequel to episode. 112 00:05:59,290 --> 00:06:02,730 We did just a few months ago, 115 about statements of faith. 113 00:06:02,870 --> 00:06:07,090 It was called how do Laura Haven creators strive to follow biblical statements 114 00:06:07,150 --> 00:06:11,530 of faith? Uh, that one proved surprisingly popular Zach, and to show, 115 00:06:11,530 --> 00:06:16,130 it seemed to make sense to follow up with the other document we have helping to 116 00:06:16,290 --> 00:06:19,370 structure the Lord Haven Guild and Laura Haven as a whole, uh, the, 117 00:06:19,410 --> 00:06:21,850 a code of honor that we put together at the turn of this year, 118 00:06:22,270 --> 00:06:25,450 all of Laura Haven creators must sign on to the faith statement. Uh, 119 00:06:25,450 --> 00:06:29,730 this is a Christian organization and we define Christian by particular tenants 120 00:06:29,730 --> 00:06:32,650 that we have in that, uh, faith statement, the sacred scrolls, 121 00:06:32,950 --> 00:06:37,050 but we also apply a written code of honor to every member of the Guild. I mean, 122 00:06:37,050 --> 00:06:39,970 you don't have to follow that if you're gonna comment at Laura Haven, 123 00:06:40,250 --> 00:06:43,170 anything like that, we have no way of enforcing that, but for the Guild, 124 00:06:43,170 --> 00:06:46,610 which is our, uh, discord server, uh, confidential server, it's, 125 00:06:46,610 --> 00:06:49,810 avitation only if you subscribe free@laurahaven.com, uh, 126 00:06:49,810 --> 00:06:53,450 you do have to sign off to agree to follow the code of honor. Uh, 127 00:06:53,450 --> 00:06:56,770 if you're going to be a member of the Guild, even if you're not in leadership, 128 00:06:56,770 --> 00:07:00,130 even if you're not guiding one of the monthly book quests, uh, 129 00:07:00,130 --> 00:07:03,370 Laura Haven is not a church or a church substitute, of course, uh, 130 00:07:03,370 --> 00:07:05,410 we recognize our limits there. Uh, 131 00:07:05,410 --> 00:07:08,250 but we do want to mimic any biblical local church, uh, 132 00:07:08,250 --> 00:07:12,050 that has faith statements and orthodoxy and expectations for Christian behavior. 133 00:07:12,300 --> 00:07:16,410 Orthopraxy, uh, orthodoxy, beliefs, behavior, ortho, 134 00:07:17,110 --> 00:07:19,730 the apostles expected all believers to do this. 135 00:07:20,070 --> 00:07:22,570 And so should we just as a matter of being brothers and sisters, 136 00:07:22,600 --> 00:07:25,930 even if we're not in the local church with elders and deacons and things, uh, 137 00:07:25,930 --> 00:07:29,170 if we know these things, we'll find confidence in Christ, uh, 138 00:07:29,170 --> 00:07:34,170 that can help us maybe see in biblical light and avoid the ungodly behavior that 139 00:07:34,170 --> 00:07:38,970 we see even from other Christian family members or the creators of big fantasy 140 00:07:39,180 --> 00:07:41,690 franchises or the big corporations behind them, 141 00:07:42,180 --> 00:07:46,690 which it seems increasingly Zah like to get the fans squabbling amongst 142 00:07:46,690 --> 00:07:50,010 themselves, toss out some accusations and then see who emerges on top. 143 00:07:50,010 --> 00:07:53,730 But once the battle's over, I, I don't like that kind of behavior. Uh, 144 00:07:53,730 --> 00:07:56,530 we've addressed that kind of thing in previous episodes of the podcast, 145 00:07:56,870 --> 00:08:01,810 but now we're kind of trying to offer a solution. Okay, you can't fix them, uh, 146 00:08:02,030 --> 00:08:06,410 but you can follow a code of honor based in scripture. 147 00:08:06,630 --> 00:08:08,890 And this is what we're trying to do at Laura Haven. Uh, 148 00:08:08,910 --> 00:08:12,730 the confidence that we have then if we're re reacting to that kind of thing, uh, 149 00:08:12,750 --> 00:08:16,290 is not based in getting more powerful than they are or knowing more biblical 150 00:08:16,300 --> 00:08:21,210 truth than they are. But by looking to Jesus, we want to imitate his truth. 151 00:08:21,230 --> 00:08:24,170 We want to imitate his conduct, any, uh, 152 00:08:24,170 --> 00:08:27,250 other concessions you were thinking of Zach while I was running through those. 153 00:08:27,680 --> 00:08:30,450 Well, Naomi and I are going through a marriage class right now. 154 00:08:30,470 --> 00:08:34,250 And a big thing we're talking about is what were the expectations you had going 155 00:08:34,280 --> 00:08:37,650 into marriage and how are those being fulfilled or not fulfilled? 156 00:08:37,710 --> 00:08:42,530 And just recognizing the expectations you have in a certain relationship 157 00:08:42,910 --> 00:08:46,890 can help you get to the bottom of why you're feeling a certain way about your 158 00:08:46,890 --> 00:08:47,090 spouse, 159 00:08:47,090 --> 00:08:50,050 but this really applies to any sort of relationship or any community you're part 160 00:08:50,050 --> 00:08:54,910 of, there are expectations built into every relationship. And, um, 161 00:08:54,910 --> 00:08:58,360 there, there are codes of conduct for every relationship or community. 162 00:08:58,700 --> 00:09:03,040 And a lot of times they're just implicit and there's a lot of cues you're 163 00:09:03,080 --> 00:09:04,040 supposed to pick up on, 164 00:09:04,620 --> 00:09:08,800 but this being a internet community where there's no body language or anything 165 00:09:08,800 --> 00:09:13,120 like that, we have to make everything written. And so just in defense of, uh, 166 00:09:13,170 --> 00:09:14,003 codes of conduct, 167 00:09:14,140 --> 00:09:18,960 that's kind of why we made this and why we made it so robust as 168 00:09:18,960 --> 00:09:20,760 we're about to go into, uh, 169 00:09:20,760 --> 00:09:25,200 because we wanna make those expectations as explicit, as clear as possible. 170 00:09:25,940 --> 00:09:28,720 Yes. And I also want to throw out another concession there. Uh, 171 00:09:28,720 --> 00:09:33,720 this is not to act like something like a pacifist or soft pacifist or 172 00:09:34,000 --> 00:09:38,200 anything like that. Uh, I recognize that conflict is inevitable, uh, 173 00:09:38,200 --> 00:09:42,200 in a world that's been broken by sin. Uh, it's also in some ways, 174 00:09:42,200 --> 00:09:43,760 sometimes Zach healthy, you know, 175 00:09:44,240 --> 00:09:47,680 conflict can be a way that people help one another, uh, help one another learn. 176 00:09:48,020 --> 00:09:50,960 Uh, you can Exactly, uh, that is, uh, 177 00:09:50,960 --> 00:09:53,840 an inherently conflicted act. Uh, 178 00:09:53,860 --> 00:09:57,000 you could have a teacher student environment where there's some conflict, 179 00:09:57,020 --> 00:09:58,200 you can have healthy debate, 180 00:09:58,540 --> 00:10:01,640 but if the participants in the debate are following a code of conduct, 181 00:10:01,910 --> 00:10:06,680 then hopefully, uh, the practice benefits both partners of the debate, uh, 182 00:10:06,680 --> 00:10:08,680 as well as the moderator, as well as the onlookers. 183 00:10:08,780 --> 00:10:11,520 So we don't do formal debates in the Guild or anything like that, 184 00:10:11,580 --> 00:10:15,440 but we're not trying to make it a conflict free zone. I would say, 185 00:10:16,000 --> 00:10:19,600 although I just, I've not seen yet anyway, eight months in, uh, 186 00:10:19,600 --> 00:10:23,880 the kind of conflict, uh, that would, uh, compromise the group, you know, 187 00:10:23,880 --> 00:10:26,360 that would turn in into something we don't mean it to be, uh, 188 00:10:26,360 --> 00:10:29,560 we did have to kick one member, uh, just once I will say, 189 00:10:29,740 --> 00:10:31,920 but it's only been one so far and, you know, 190 00:10:32,030 --> 00:10:35,680 pray for the Guild that whether or not you participate in that community, uh, 191 00:10:35,800 --> 00:10:38,720 that's a record that I would like to keep if at all possible. Uh, 192 00:10:38,720 --> 00:10:41,440 we only lost one cuz the person very clearly, uh, 193 00:10:41,440 --> 00:10:44,880 had no intentions of actually signing off on the code of honor. Uh, 194 00:10:44,880 --> 00:10:46,720 this person was not a professing Christian, 195 00:10:46,720 --> 00:10:49,040 but we don't require people to be professing Christians, 196 00:10:49,110 --> 00:10:52,880 just follow the code of honor, which however is going to be a lot easier. 197 00:10:52,880 --> 00:10:56,320 In theory, if you have the holy spirit inside you that makes you want to follow, 198 00:10:56,740 --> 00:11:00,720 uh, biblical principles of behavior. So I think that's my last concession. Uh, 199 00:11:00,720 --> 00:11:04,800 what we're gonna do now is just, uh, in a sort of a three part, uh, format here. 200 00:11:05,100 --> 00:11:08,320 Uh, we're gonna go through the tens of the code of honor document, 201 00:11:08,320 --> 00:11:10,760 which of course you can find linked in the show notes. Uh, 202 00:11:10,760 --> 00:11:13,240 there's about two or three of them per chapter here. Uh, 203 00:11:13,240 --> 00:11:16,680 we'll take breaks in between, uh, let's go Zach then to chapter one, 204 00:11:16,820 --> 00:11:20,400 why we made a code of honor, uh, to help us respect all members. 205 00:11:20,780 --> 00:11:23,800 So we'll go through each one and offer some brief thoughts, uh, 206 00:11:23,800 --> 00:11:26,440 kind of unscripted here, similar to what we did with the faith statement, 207 00:11:26,460 --> 00:11:29,320 but that turned out well, hope this turns out well too first, 208 00:11:29,320 --> 00:11:31,080 just to specify again, uh, 209 00:11:31,080 --> 00:11:34,840 Guild leaders and members are required to follow the Lord Haven code of honor. 210 00:11:34,980 --> 00:11:37,120 So that's the document that, uh, 211 00:11:37,120 --> 00:11:41,560 the members of the creative leadership are looking at to help us discern, 212 00:11:41,820 --> 00:11:42,800 you know, okay, did this, 213 00:11:42,800 --> 00:11:46,960 this person made an illusion to so and so issue that's going on, you know, uh, 214 00:11:46,990 --> 00:11:51,120 does that break our, uh, our rule about the, you know, political topics? Uh, 215 00:11:51,120 --> 00:11:55,200 this is a guiding document that we we use and it's got, I think, yeah, seven, 216 00:11:55,290 --> 00:11:58,440 seven parts to it. Uh, the leadership team helped, uh, 217 00:11:58,440 --> 00:12:02,560 put these together at the turn of the year when we launched the Guild and I will 218 00:12:02,620 --> 00:12:06,760 go through each one right now, quoting directly, uh, quote one, 219 00:12:07,110 --> 00:12:08,160 keep to the code. 220 00:12:08,570 --> 00:12:12,760 Laura Haven Guild members may not necessarily agree with the sacred scrolls 221 00:12:12,890 --> 00:12:14,600 faith statement. However, 222 00:12:14,740 --> 00:12:19,240 please recognize that Lord Haven and the Lord Haven Guild are led by Christian 223 00:12:19,340 --> 00:12:22,600 guides. We encourage questions of the biblical gospel, 224 00:12:22,940 --> 00:12:27,320 but we cannot tolerate attempts to disparage this Christian faith or dissuade 225 00:12:27,320 --> 00:12:31,920 other members from following Jesus Christ end quote, 226 00:12:32,460 --> 00:12:36,520 and Zach I'm kind of reading that now more as a reader, uh, 227 00:12:36,520 --> 00:12:40,080 rather than somebody who helped, uh, draft the language there. Uh, 228 00:12:40,080 --> 00:12:45,040 what I'm seeing there is an intentional effort to make sure that 229 00:12:45,040 --> 00:12:49,360 we define what we mean by Christian. Yes, Christians can only be individuals, 230 00:12:49,540 --> 00:12:53,320 but Christian spaces, Christian stuff, Christian groups, 231 00:12:53,460 --> 00:12:55,480 as we say in our title here, uh, 232 00:12:55,480 --> 00:13:00,440 they do carry the influence of Christianity and we define what we mean by 233 00:13:00,440 --> 00:13:02,800 Christianity in the faith statement. But here, 234 00:13:02,800 --> 00:13:05,920 we just want to make sure that we don't have folks coming in, 235 00:13:05,920 --> 00:13:07,560 even though there's a few hoops to jump through, 236 00:13:07,560 --> 00:13:12,280 like subscribing free to law Haven, uh, in order to play stump the Christian, 237 00:13:12,620 --> 00:13:16,880 uh, or in order to advocate for another religion. Like yeah, if, you know, 238 00:13:16,880 --> 00:13:19,680 if you're a non-Christian of course you're welcome here. 239 00:13:19,870 --> 00:13:23,000 Just like a non-Christian will be welcome in the local church. Uh, 240 00:13:23,000 --> 00:13:24,200 but although we're not a local church, 241 00:13:24,300 --> 00:13:27,480 so we also wanna follow the standard of nobody gets the stand up in the middle 242 00:13:27,480 --> 00:13:30,440 of the local church service and disrupt the place. Uh, 243 00:13:30,440 --> 00:13:32,400 all things must be done decently and in order, 244 00:13:32,540 --> 00:13:37,040 and we do want that kind of creative order here in the Guild with maybe a little 245 00:13:37,040 --> 00:13:39,760 side project of evangelism here and there. Uh, 246 00:13:39,760 --> 00:13:43,280 not that we want a bunch of unbelievers to come in so that we can throw Jesus at 247 00:13:43,280 --> 00:13:45,480 them. We'd rather everybody mostly be on the same page. 248 00:13:45,950 --> 00:13:47,280 Yeah. And I think here, we're just, 249 00:13:47,280 --> 00:13:51,640 we're recognizing a very common occurrence with online communities that, 250 00:13:52,420 --> 00:13:52,640 uh, 251 00:13:52,640 --> 00:13:56,160 certain people want to be let into a community who don't agree at all with the 252 00:13:56,640 --> 00:14:00,560 identity or purpose of that community. Uh, but they demand to be let in, 253 00:14:00,790 --> 00:14:04,880 even though they have totally different ideologies and they kind of bank on 254 00:14:04,880 --> 00:14:07,280 people's empathy or sense of inclusion, 255 00:14:07,780 --> 00:14:11,360 and then they come into the community and start subverting it, you know, 256 00:14:11,370 --> 00:14:15,760 start trying to speak against the purpose of that community. Uh, 257 00:14:15,820 --> 00:14:20,720 and then basically just bait people into fighting them and then, 258 00:14:20,780 --> 00:14:22,960 uh, it just goes off the rails from there. 259 00:14:23,180 --> 00:14:27,960 And so this happens all the time and we just wanna be really clear upfront 260 00:14:27,960 --> 00:14:32,780 with who we are and what we're about and what we're not going to 261 00:14:32,960 --> 00:14:36,620 accept in this community, because this is a private community. This is not, 262 00:14:37,160 --> 00:14:40,860 you know, some social media platform or anyone's allowed to do whatever. 263 00:14:40,860 --> 00:14:45,450 This is not a blog comment section. Uh, this is a private group. 264 00:14:45,630 --> 00:14:47,850 And so to be in this group, this is, you know, 265 00:14:47,850 --> 00:14:51,530 the first thing that is required is that you honor the purpose of the group. 266 00:14:51,530 --> 00:14:54,730 And again, people may come here and I, I hope people come here that, 267 00:14:55,240 --> 00:14:58,530 that aren't believers and I hope they find it to be a fun place. Um, 268 00:14:58,530 --> 00:15:00,570 and I hope we can have fun discussions about fiction. 269 00:15:01,400 --> 00:15:06,090 Exactly. And another concession, I would say a bit, uh, later R here just, uh, 270 00:15:06,090 --> 00:15:10,210 forgotten and in the back of the fridge, is that some communities I would say, 271 00:15:10,390 --> 00:15:14,210 are made for those kinds of rowdier discussions, like yes, 272 00:15:14,950 --> 00:15:19,050 if you're into like mixed martial arts fighting, or as you said earlier, 273 00:15:19,160 --> 00:15:23,490 Zach wrestling, you know, some kind of sports competition so long as it it's, 274 00:15:23,490 --> 00:15:27,410 uh, you know, being formed by rules and refers and all of that, uh, you know, 275 00:15:27,410 --> 00:15:30,810 and, and penalties, if he, you break them or eject the coach, 276 00:15:30,810 --> 00:15:33,650 if he's throwing a chair on the basketball court or something like that, 277 00:15:33,870 --> 00:15:37,490 and that's as sportsy as it's probably ever gonna get you a fantastical truth, 278 00:15:38,240 --> 00:15:42,490 that kinda thing is appropriate there. But in this case, uh, 279 00:15:42,640 --> 00:15:43,770 it's the Lord Haven Guild, 280 00:15:43,830 --> 00:15:48,010 or maybe you have another creative group that you're a part of it's appropriate 281 00:15:48,040 --> 00:15:52,250 then to set expectations like, okay, that maybe find out there, you know, 282 00:15:52,270 --> 00:15:56,130 it may be good then to go to a political rally and yell and support your guy or 283 00:15:56,150 --> 00:15:58,250 gal and, you know, and then boo the competition. 284 00:15:58,790 --> 00:16:02,930 But we're not gonna do that here, not here in the living room, uh, 285 00:16:02,950 --> 00:16:04,930 not here in the fellowship hall. Uh, 286 00:16:04,930 --> 00:16:09,210 it's just simply a matter of defining the purpose of a space, uh, and almost, 287 00:16:09,390 --> 00:16:11,930 uh, forming a kind of dress code. Uh, 288 00:16:11,930 --> 00:16:14,250 it may be appropriate to dress one particular way for the pool. 289 00:16:14,310 --> 00:16:16,370 And Christians can debate that over there. 290 00:16:16,770 --> 00:16:17,230 oh, no. 291 00:16:17,230 --> 00:16:19,850 But over here, yeah. Keep all your clothes on. You know, 292 00:16:19,980 --> 00:16:21,690 we're not going swimming here, you know, 293 00:16:21,750 --> 00:16:25,370 you may not need to wear a three piece suit, uh, if you are a man, 294 00:16:25,550 --> 00:16:28,530 but you should have something on, you know, dress for the occasion, 295 00:16:28,710 --> 00:16:33,410 behave for the occasion. And in this case, the occasion is a Christian space, 296 00:16:33,510 --> 00:16:36,530 uh, to discuss Christian ideas in fantastical stories. 297 00:16:36,840 --> 00:16:40,930 Yeah. And I, I like that we have that upfront Steven, because, you know, 298 00:16:40,930 --> 00:16:44,890 we've decided that we don't want to just be a book and movie discussion group 299 00:16:44,890 --> 00:16:48,490 that happens to be Christian. You know, we wanted to be Christian first. 300 00:16:48,720 --> 00:16:53,680 Like this is primarily a space for the Christian faith through the lens 301 00:16:53,700 --> 00:16:57,560 of fiction. Christianity is central to the purpose for our Guild, 302 00:16:57,710 --> 00:17:00,510 like our Christian faith, you know, it's, 303 00:17:00,510 --> 00:17:02,350 it's the foundation for why we're doing this. 304 00:17:02,350 --> 00:17:05,950 It's not just an added ingredient to being geeks or whatever. 305 00:17:06,810 --> 00:17:11,580 And so I like that we put that up front because that for other 306 00:17:11,580 --> 00:17:16,300 Christians that really want to talk to other Christians about movies and 307 00:17:16,300 --> 00:17:20,260 films and books and stories, you know, that that's who we're trying to bring in. 308 00:17:20,920 --> 00:17:23,540 And then for anyone else that is like, well, I, you know, 309 00:17:23,540 --> 00:17:27,140 I have a lot of Christian friends, but I'm not a Christian. Well, that's fine. 310 00:17:27,990 --> 00:17:31,490 But just recognize that this is primarily a, 311 00:17:31,770 --> 00:17:33,970 a space to promote Christian belief. 312 00:17:34,440 --> 00:17:37,410 Exactly. Hey, I just remembered that a few days ago, 313 00:17:37,450 --> 00:17:39,010 I actually got an email from somebody. 314 00:17:39,050 --> 00:17:42,130 I think they were replying to the do not reply address, but that's okay. 315 00:17:42,530 --> 00:17:44,490 the person was saying, Hey, I'm, I'm not a Christian. 316 00:17:44,490 --> 00:17:48,330 Can I still join the group? I still need to reply to that person and say, yes, 317 00:17:48,400 --> 00:17:51,560 just look to the code of honor. Number one, like this is the purpose here. 318 00:17:51,560 --> 00:17:55,200 We're not requiring that of everybody just don't come in there. You know, 319 00:17:55,200 --> 00:17:57,440 don't sign your kid up for the Christian school. Uh, 320 00:17:57,440 --> 00:18:00,840 and then be shocked that they're teaching and expecting a Christian sexual 321 00:18:00,980 --> 00:18:04,320 ethics, which is another controversy that's been going on lately. Um, 322 00:18:04,340 --> 00:18:08,840 that's just plain old, silly, uh, I wouldn't sign up for the atheist school, 323 00:18:09,220 --> 00:18:12,320 uh, and then be stunned that they're teaching my kid atheism. Uh, 324 00:18:12,320 --> 00:18:14,560 don't try to change the group from the inside. Uh, 325 00:18:14,580 --> 00:18:17,960 if this is the group's very clear, written, stated expectation. 326 00:18:18,600 --> 00:18:20,170 Yeah. Hey, you know, on that note, 327 00:18:20,170 --> 00:18:23,410 that's funny you say that when I was in college, um, I, 328 00:18:23,570 --> 00:18:26,770 I met a friend that was in an atheist group, and so I asked where they meet, 329 00:18:26,850 --> 00:18:31,210 I just wanted to listen in and I went there and it was a very, uh, 330 00:18:32,450 --> 00:18:35,130 academic discussion. They were having about some topic and I was just like, 331 00:18:35,200 --> 00:18:37,890 okay, this is interesting, a little boring, but, you know, 332 00:18:37,890 --> 00:18:39,090 I just wanted to kinda listen in. 333 00:18:39,590 --> 00:18:42,290 And then right in the middle of them talking this, this, uh, 334 00:18:42,650 --> 00:18:46,210 freshman student stood up and, and said, uh, 335 00:18:46,280 --> 00:18:49,450 what does any of this have to do with evolution versus creation? 336 00:18:49,450 --> 00:18:53,050 And they're like, what it was like, so like off topic. 337 00:18:53,390 --> 00:18:56,050 Oh, like she, did we have some Christian cringe going on? Perhaps? 338 00:18:56,050 --> 00:18:59,370 Yeah. Yeah. It was kind of cringe. It was like, okay. Mm. And I, 339 00:18:59,530 --> 00:19:02,410 I wanted to kind of take her aside, like, Hey, we're on the same team, 340 00:19:02,410 --> 00:19:05,490 but just like, you know, hold your horses a little bit, you know, 341 00:19:05,490 --> 00:19:09,610 like like, don't just drop the truth bomb and then run, you know? 342 00:19:09,610 --> 00:19:11,170 Yeah. Play that forward in your imagination. 343 00:19:11,190 --> 00:19:14,930 Do you actually see anybody ready to convert or even pre pre pre pre pre 344 00:19:14,930 --> 00:19:17,170 conversion at that point? Uh, not really. Yeah. 345 00:19:17,170 --> 00:19:18,490 Just gonna add more heat than light. 346 00:19:19,160 --> 00:19:19,993 Yeah. 347 00:19:20,310 --> 00:19:24,460 Let's go to the code of honor. Uh, number two here, uh, speaking of, uh, 348 00:19:24,520 --> 00:19:26,180 not offending people, uh, 349 00:19:26,180 --> 00:19:28,740 in the name of sharing some light and just end up sharing heat, 350 00:19:28,840 --> 00:19:31,140 we have number two, respect everyone. 351 00:19:31,270 --> 00:19:35,220 Every person in your quest party is created in God's image. 352 00:19:35,630 --> 00:19:39,940 Every novel author is also created and is creating in God's image 353 00:19:40,250 --> 00:19:42,460 because all people, whether celebrity stranger, 354 00:19:42,480 --> 00:19:46,980 friend or family reflects this very image of God, they are worthy of respect. 355 00:19:47,240 --> 00:19:50,340 We will uphold this biblical gracious respect. 356 00:19:50,960 --> 00:19:54,540 That's the quote and Zach reading that. Now it, it seems a little general, 357 00:19:55,000 --> 00:19:56,660 but that's on purpose. Uh, 358 00:19:56,660 --> 00:20:00,780 we want to have that principle at the back of someone's head. Uh, 359 00:20:00,780 --> 00:20:02,940 we want to internalize that in our hearts, 360 00:20:03,170 --> 00:20:06,900 that the purpose of respecting people is not just to give them or tell them what 361 00:20:06,900 --> 00:20:11,460 they want. Uh, the purpose of respecting people is the Imago day. 362 00:20:11,640 --> 00:20:15,620 God has made that person in his image and breathed into that person, 363 00:20:16,000 --> 00:20:19,740 the breath of life, God defines the reason why we respect people, 364 00:20:20,320 --> 00:20:22,980 try to honor them as his image bearers. Uh, 365 00:20:23,000 --> 00:20:26,020 God defines that not people defining that, uh, 366 00:20:26,020 --> 00:20:28,420 which may be a little bit different from other, uh, 367 00:20:28,510 --> 00:20:32,220 codes of honor written or otherwise that you see in other groups, uh, 368 00:20:32,530 --> 00:20:36,260 fantastical or geeky or otherwise. Uh, there's kind of this, uh, 369 00:20:36,260 --> 00:20:40,740 this shared idea of respect that gets defined by memes 370 00:20:41,200 --> 00:20:41,780 and, uh, 371 00:20:41,780 --> 00:20:46,060 partially remembered phrases and moralities from a hodgepodge of religions. 372 00:20:46,060 --> 00:20:50,680 Most of them shaped now by the popular media and by political agendas. Uh, 373 00:20:50,750 --> 00:20:52,280 this here I think is, uh, 374 00:20:52,300 --> 00:20:55,880 is a principle that goes all the way back to Genesis chapter one, 375 00:20:55,880 --> 00:20:57,640 describing the creation of man and woman. 376 00:20:57,990 --> 00:21:02,400 Yeah. You know, the, the phrase I like is critique the work, not the person, um, 377 00:21:02,420 --> 00:21:05,760 you know, attack the work, if you think it needs to be attacked and, 378 00:21:05,780 --> 00:21:08,600 and taken apart, but don't attack the person, uh, 379 00:21:08,600 --> 00:21:13,400 the person that created that work. Now, admittedly, this is hard. Uh, this is, 380 00:21:13,790 --> 00:21:17,320 this is a hard rule to abide by sometimes because it's hard to sometimes 381 00:21:17,600 --> 00:21:20,200 separate the art from the artist. Um, 382 00:21:20,200 --> 00:21:24,960 and I think it's even harder to even be aware of this rule when 383 00:21:24,960 --> 00:21:29,120 you're in an in group and you're sort of critiquing something from an outgroup. 384 00:21:29,780 --> 00:21:30,600 And so I, 385 00:21:30,600 --> 00:21:34,680 I think that this calls on us to sort of police each other in ourselves and I 386 00:21:34,680 --> 00:21:38,480 mean, not police, but, you know, remind each other that, Hey, let, let's, 387 00:21:38,660 --> 00:21:42,920 you know, let's hold to this rule, uh, be because look, 388 00:21:42,920 --> 00:21:47,020 there are plenty of forums that you can join that are just, 389 00:21:47,710 --> 00:21:52,500 uh, where everything gets very personal and everything gets very, you know, uh, 390 00:21:52,500 --> 00:21:56,260 offensive, like just, we don't need to go there. like, there's, 391 00:21:56,570 --> 00:21:59,140 there's many other forums for that. If you wanna do that. 392 00:21:59,320 --> 00:22:01,780 So that that's not what we want to create in this community. 393 00:22:02,170 --> 00:22:04,900 Exactly. I note they're the language too about, uh, 394 00:22:04,900 --> 00:22:09,140 respecting every author of the novel and, uh, in the Lord Haven Guild, 395 00:22:09,170 --> 00:22:12,700 there's a slight chance unless the author is Tolkin or Lewis, uh, 396 00:22:12,700 --> 00:22:14,500 that the author could be there. 397 00:22:14,640 --> 00:22:18,060 And that has actually happened a few times with some of the monthly book quests 398 00:22:18,060 --> 00:22:19,700 that we hosted. Uh, however, 399 00:22:19,840 --> 00:22:24,180 we try to pick books that we believe the majority of participants will enjoy, 400 00:22:24,280 --> 00:22:28,100 and we're not picking a random book that Lord Haven is not reviewed or is not 401 00:22:28,100 --> 00:22:29,180 aware of. Uh, 402 00:22:29,200 --> 00:22:32,940 and we're always focusing on Christian made fantasy or science fiction there 403 00:22:32,970 --> 00:22:35,660 it's, it's all Christian made titles, uh, that we're picking, 404 00:22:36,080 --> 00:22:40,260 but some of the authors are very involved in, uh, fan communities like ours. 405 00:22:40,260 --> 00:22:43,300 And so they may be showing up, which may make it a little bit, uh, 406 00:22:43,300 --> 00:22:47,380 easier to respect that person because he or she is actually there, uh, 407 00:22:47,380 --> 00:22:49,460 as opposed to being an author who is, uh, 408 00:22:49,460 --> 00:22:53,340 no longer with us or who is not participating in the book west, uh, 409 00:22:53,420 --> 00:22:56,740 I will say Zach, that I'm very happy overall, uh, 410 00:22:56,850 --> 00:22:58,940 with the way that this has gone in the Guild, 411 00:22:59,010 --> 00:23:03,180 because although we have chosen titles that we want everybody to like that are 412 00:23:03,180 --> 00:23:05,020 fairly non-controversial like, for example, 413 00:23:05,020 --> 00:23:07,820 we've got the Hobbit quest party coming up here in September. 414 00:23:07,840 --> 00:23:11,060 By the time you listen to this episode, it may have already started. Uh, 415 00:23:11,060 --> 00:23:14,180 we did at least at one point or I did, let's not use the, we there, 416 00:23:14,300 --> 00:23:18,540 I chose a book, uh, back in the spring actually, uh, that was the, uh, 417 00:23:18,540 --> 00:23:21,940 the seventh sun by the now late Lonnie Forbes, which had, 418 00:23:22,100 --> 00:23:25,660 I would suppose some controversial elements in there. Uh, some central bits, uh, 419 00:23:25,660 --> 00:23:29,660 kind of some Y a type, uh, heavy breathing content between, uh, 420 00:23:29,760 --> 00:23:31,260 two members of the teenage cast. 421 00:23:31,960 --> 00:23:34,460 And that I knew would be a little bit controversial. 422 00:23:34,460 --> 00:23:37,980 And so I'm still thinking about like, well, did I, did I choose right? You know, 423 00:23:37,980 --> 00:23:42,980 was this a good title at a good time for this group? And I know however that, 424 00:23:43,040 --> 00:23:46,930 uh, members in that quest party, uh, appreciated the story overall, 425 00:23:47,070 --> 00:23:51,530 but we did have some debate about that level of content and whether it was age 426 00:23:51,530 --> 00:23:53,130 appropriate for particular readers. 427 00:23:53,510 --> 00:23:55,970 And that was the kind of discussion I was hoping to see. 428 00:23:56,380 --> 00:24:00,890 Could we discuss the themes and the content and the descriptions of the book, 429 00:24:01,430 --> 00:24:01,650 uh, 430 00:24:01,650 --> 00:24:06,650 without disrespecting the author and from my memory of that particular 431 00:24:06,680 --> 00:24:10,170 book west, I think all of our heroes and the Guild did very well. 432 00:24:10,460 --> 00:24:14,250 Would I choose a book like that just to see what would happen even a little bit? 433 00:24:14,710 --> 00:24:18,810 No, maybe not, but in that case, it wouldn't be because, uh, that, uh, 434 00:24:18,810 --> 00:24:21,130 case study did not go well. It actually did, 435 00:24:21,550 --> 00:24:24,570 but we just wanna make sure that we choose titles that are, you know, 436 00:24:24,790 --> 00:24:27,610 not going to add a lot of heat, uh, 437 00:24:27,610 --> 00:24:31,050 to the discussion where people will have to cool themselves down. Uh, 438 00:24:31,050 --> 00:24:34,490 we wanna choose titles that will add light to the discussion for the purpose of 439 00:24:34,490 --> 00:24:35,070 respecting, 440 00:24:35,070 --> 00:24:38,410 not just the author of the story or the characters in the story or the themes, 441 00:24:38,870 --> 00:24:42,450 uh, but helping to respect one another as Guild heroes who bear God's image. 442 00:24:42,760 --> 00:24:44,290 Yeah. And that right there is a great reminder. 443 00:24:44,580 --> 00:24:48,210 We're gonna pick books that not everyone's gonna like there, 444 00:24:48,210 --> 00:24:51,370 or that might have elements, not everyone is comfortable with. Um, 445 00:24:52,190 --> 00:24:56,250 and people are going to have varying levels of enjoyment or those elements or 446 00:24:56,250 --> 00:24:57,083 those books. 447 00:24:57,540 --> 00:25:01,200 And so that's where we just have to assume the best about everyone else and 448 00:25:01,290 --> 00:25:02,640 their enjoyment of those books. 449 00:25:03,350 --> 00:25:07,680 It's okay to disagree about these things about whether or not these elements 450 00:25:07,680 --> 00:25:10,880 should be in books or, or if you like them or not. Yeah. 451 00:25:10,880 --> 00:25:15,540 It's just not okay to attack someone else for their taste 452 00:25:15,680 --> 00:25:16,513 in books. 453 00:25:16,530 --> 00:25:19,020 Exactly. And I'd say by the way, faithful listener, 454 00:25:19,080 --> 00:25:22,460 we may have another accidental test case coming up simply because of that prime 455 00:25:22,460 --> 00:25:23,860 debate. I mentioned, uh, 456 00:25:23,860 --> 00:25:26,980 we'll get to that in a moment when we talk about number four here of the code of 457 00:25:26,980 --> 00:25:27,813 honor, 458 00:25:27,960 --> 00:25:32,100 but I've seen plenty of punditry about that particular series that singles out, 459 00:25:32,160 --> 00:25:36,020 uh, cast members or the showrunners by name, uh, who as far as I know, 460 00:25:36,020 --> 00:25:36,860 are not Christians. 461 00:25:36,880 --> 00:25:40,220 And of course are not going to appear in the Guild to defend their work or see 462 00:25:40,220 --> 00:25:42,900 what you're saying about them. So how do we handle then, uh, 463 00:25:42,930 --> 00:25:47,740 franchise runners or a corporate chiefs who have no part of the Guild? Well, 464 00:25:47,780 --> 00:25:51,260 I think the same principle applies that you wanna respect that person as God's 465 00:25:51,260 --> 00:25:52,050 image bearer, 466 00:25:52,050 --> 00:25:55,260 even if you couldn't disagree more strongly of with the type of creative work 467 00:25:55,260 --> 00:25:58,820 that they have done. Uh, we do have a channel called middle earth, which is, uh, 468 00:25:58,820 --> 00:26:02,300 just for all purpose, uh, discussion about all things Tolkin. Uh, 469 00:26:02,300 --> 00:26:05,500 there's a lot of channels that, uh, go off in different directions, uh, 470 00:26:05,500 --> 00:26:10,300 related to Christian made fantasy and sometimes secular fantasy as well. Uh, 471 00:26:10,300 --> 00:26:12,340 but those are, I would say the side quests, uh, 472 00:26:12,340 --> 00:26:15,180 we're focusing mainly on each one of the book quests, uh, 473 00:26:15,180 --> 00:26:17,220 that we change every month in the Lord Haven Guild, 474 00:26:17,670 --> 00:26:21,060 which leads me to our second sponsor for this episode, the Lord Haven Guild, 475 00:26:21,060 --> 00:26:23,740 we had a slot open, so I rushed in and took it. Uh, 476 00:26:23,740 --> 00:26:27,620 we are going there and back again with our Hobbit book quest, 477 00:26:27,780 --> 00:26:30,660 a starting on Monday, September the fifth. Yes, 478 00:26:30,760 --> 00:26:35,180 we are doing it for September just in time for Hobbit day, which is true fans. 479 00:26:35,280 --> 00:26:37,420 No is on September the 22nd. 480 00:26:37,980 --> 00:26:41,220 A Hobbit book quest will go through all 19 chapters of the Hobbit. 481 00:26:41,220 --> 00:26:44,680 It's being led by faithful book quest leader, Elijah David. 482 00:26:45,060 --> 00:26:49,480 And we're gonna have fun with this. I really, really enjoy, uh, the Hobbit. Uh, 483 00:26:49,600 --> 00:26:50,800 I think in the past, 484 00:26:51,320 --> 00:26:55,480 I think I may have actually read the Lord of the rings first before the Hobbit, 485 00:26:55,650 --> 00:26:59,040 maybe because I had to catch up in a hurry before seeing the moves. 486 00:26:59,040 --> 00:27:01,000 Unfortunately, I was one of those late coming fans, 487 00:27:01,500 --> 00:27:05,920 but do not let them tell you that the Hoit is a children's story. 488 00:27:05,920 --> 00:27:10,080 Whereas the Lord of the rings is the more mature grownup book for more mature 489 00:27:10,080 --> 00:27:13,720 grownups. Uh, the Hobbit has a different flavor, certainly at the first, 490 00:27:14,300 --> 00:27:17,640 but one of the observations I love to make about the story is that while it 491 00:27:17,700 --> 00:27:19,840 starts off very whimsical and charming, 492 00:27:20,260 --> 00:27:23,640 and then for some reason you have a talking purse, uh, 493 00:27:23,640 --> 00:27:27,280 from the troll that Billbo fails to pick pocket and who gives off the alert. 494 00:27:27,280 --> 00:27:29,600 And it's a weird element like that, uh, 495 00:27:29,600 --> 00:27:33,120 stuff like that does happen in the Lord of the rings too. Tom Bombadil, anyone, 496 00:27:33,540 --> 00:27:36,040 the talking, thinking Fox, anyone, uh, 497 00:27:36,040 --> 00:27:38,160 Tolkin likes to go for those whimsical things. 498 00:27:38,300 --> 00:27:42,880 And yet the Hoit starts off more whimsical and they gets more and more mature to 499 00:27:42,880 --> 00:27:45,760 the end. And then by the end, in my interpretation, 500 00:27:45,780 --> 00:27:50,280 you find basically a challenge and the best kind of subversion of the whole king 501 00:27:50,280 --> 00:27:53,920 Arthur comes back to take is kingdom motif, which in my view, 502 00:27:54,030 --> 00:27:58,120 sets up the return to the king and the whole king narrative and the whole 503 00:27:58,120 --> 00:28:00,080 suffering servant narrative throughout the Lord of the ring. 504 00:28:00,140 --> 00:28:03,640 So all the stories are connected and we're gonna find those connections and have 505 00:28:03,700 --> 00:28:07,400 fun respecting each other and enjoying the Christian themes that Tolkin couldn't 506 00:28:07,400 --> 00:28:10,600 help, but include in his story to join the Laura Haven Guild, 507 00:28:10,600 --> 00:28:14,480 just go to Laura haven.com and subscribe free, enter your email address. 508 00:28:14,860 --> 00:28:19,440 And then we will send you the exclusive invitation to this long 509 00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:20,793 expected party. 510 00:28:20,910 --> 00:28:24,600 Just go to Laura haven.com and we will see you in the Guild where you too can be 511 00:28:24,600 --> 00:28:25,433 a Guild hero. 512 00:28:26,220 --> 00:28:27,840 Yes. And towards the end of September, 513 00:28:28,060 --> 00:28:31,400 we are going to have a video discussion, 514 00:28:31,520 --> 00:28:35,320 a live video in real time discussion about the Hobbit that's gonna be on 515 00:28:35,560 --> 00:28:39,640 Saturday, September 24th. So look for that announcement in the Guild, 516 00:28:39,900 --> 00:28:41,000 in that book quest, 517 00:28:41,900 --> 00:28:44,920 and you can join in and share your thoughts about the. 518 00:28:44,920 --> 00:28:48,520 Hobbit. I'm looking forward to this. I've already been listening to the Hobbit, 519 00:28:48,540 --> 00:28:52,520 uh, turns out there was a sale from that same company that we are sort of, 520 00:28:52,520 --> 00:28:55,320 kind of maybe talking about here and there. They're not all bad. 521 00:28:55,320 --> 00:28:58,800 They put the Hobbit and the Lord of the ring's audio books on sale narrated by 522 00:29:00,660 --> 00:29:01,390 and. 523 00:29:01,390 --> 00:29:02,140 Circles. 524 00:29:02,140 --> 00:29:04,960 And he does a fantastic job, not just with the Gollum voice, 525 00:29:05,060 --> 00:29:08,280 but by doing voices for all the cast members, I'm really enjoying it. 526 00:29:08,660 --> 00:29:11,080 And at least at one point, Zach, I was having a bad day, 527 00:29:11,620 --> 00:29:15,040 one chapter of circus reading the Hobbit in his inevitable style. 528 00:29:15,300 --> 00:29:18,080 And my bad mood was just gone. So props you, 529 00:29:18,080 --> 00:29:20,840 Andy circus don't know whether you're a Christian, but God used you that day. 530 00:29:21,180 --> 00:29:25,440 God can use non-Christians and certainly non-Christians who help make Christian 531 00:29:25,440 --> 00:29:26,760 stories like Laura, the rings. 532 00:29:26,930 --> 00:29:29,120 How's his impersonation of sir Ian McLellan. 533 00:29:29,660 --> 00:29:32,960 You know, it actually is pretty good. Uh, it's not, 534 00:29:33,590 --> 00:29:37,240 it's not all an impression of sir Ian McLellan, uh, as Gandolph, 535 00:29:37,620 --> 00:29:41,440 but you can tell that he is definitely being inspired by, I mean, 536 00:29:41,440 --> 00:29:44,600 obviously the cast member of performances in the movies, 537 00:29:44,600 --> 00:29:49,120 in which he played GOM and other roles. So, uh, it's, uh, it's, it's really fun. 538 00:29:49,220 --> 00:29:50,840 And what I appreciate too, uh, 539 00:29:50,900 --> 00:29:55,880 is that when it comes time for one of the many songs in the Hoit circus 540 00:29:55,910 --> 00:30:00,200 will just sing it, he will just, wow. And a man's got pipes. Yeah. I, 541 00:30:00,280 --> 00:30:04,040 I don't think I've heard him sing before. Uh, it is, it's obviously him singing. 542 00:30:04,110 --> 00:30:08,520 Like he's, he's definitely singing, uh, in character, but for example, with the, 543 00:30:08,520 --> 00:30:09,920 with the song that the dwarf sing, 544 00:30:10,050 --> 00:30:13,400 while they're pretending to do all the things that bill lo Bains hates, 545 00:30:13,840 --> 00:30:17,480 I was listening and wondering, are they going to do the tune from the movies? 546 00:30:17,500 --> 00:30:21,240 Are they gonna do the tune from the movies? Yes, yes, they did. 547 00:30:21,540 --> 00:30:24,520 It wasn't exactly the tune because for the, uh, the words of the song, 548 00:30:24,520 --> 00:30:26,840 they have to actually change, uh, for the movies to, 549 00:30:26,840 --> 00:30:30,640 to fit the meter that they put together. But the tune that circus does, 550 00:30:30,760 --> 00:30:34,480 I don't know whether he, he, uh, adapted it or who would've done that, uh, 551 00:30:34,480 --> 00:30:38,840 it is just basically 75 to 80%, the tune from the, uh, 552 00:30:38,840 --> 00:30:41,760 the film version of the Hobbit. So, wow. I'm looking forward to that. Cool. 553 00:30:42,030 --> 00:30:44,440 Yeah. That's one reason why I will defend the Hobbitt films. They, 554 00:30:44,440 --> 00:30:47,120 they don't mind doing the songs they put in a bunch of other nonsense, 555 00:30:47,140 --> 00:30:51,240 but they actually do have the songs in there, which I appreciate them. Anyway. 556 00:30:51,320 --> 00:30:55,040 I don't mean to, uh, belabor that, uh, self, uh, self endorsement, uh, 557 00:30:55,060 --> 00:30:57,640 too much longer. Let's go to chapter two of our discussion, 558 00:30:57,760 --> 00:30:59,440 a few more tenets of the code of honor, 559 00:30:59,750 --> 00:31:04,560 chapter two is called how the code of honor aims to discipline controversial 560 00:31:04,780 --> 00:31:07,320 topics. So this is where we get into, uh, 561 00:31:07,340 --> 00:31:10,800 the most PO possibly the most interesting portion here, uh, 562 00:31:10,820 --> 00:31:15,200 of the discussion because we among the Laura Haven staff creators wanted to make 563 00:31:15,200 --> 00:31:19,720 sure that people felt the freedom to talk about some things that did not 564 00:31:20,120 --> 00:31:21,160 constantly feel, uh, 565 00:31:21,190 --> 00:31:25,120 like the mods were going to descend upon them with all the wrath of the mods. 566 00:31:25,900 --> 00:31:30,760 But we also wanted to set clear expectations that some topics were simply 567 00:31:30,760 --> 00:31:32,760 not going to be allowed, not because they're evil, 568 00:31:32,760 --> 00:31:36,040 but simply because there's some things we wanted to keep and other people's 569 00:31:36,040 --> 00:31:40,200 comments, sections not necessarily here at the Guild. And so this next one, uh, 570 00:31:40,200 --> 00:31:43,600 needed a lot of sharpening among the staff creators. Let's see how we did. 571 00:31:43,600 --> 00:31:47,080 Number three, avoid swearing sex talk, 572 00:31:47,300 --> 00:31:49,640 and harassment scripture says, 573 00:31:49,820 --> 00:31:53,400 let there be no filthiness nor foolish talk nor crude joking, 574 00:31:53,450 --> 00:31:56,000 which are out of place Ephesians five, four, 575 00:31:56,580 --> 00:32:00,640 we apply this standard to the Guild, avoid vulgarities, profanities, 576 00:32:00,640 --> 00:32:05,040 and misuses of God's title, including in acronyms. Yes, 577 00:32:05,270 --> 00:32:09,400 some books for main quests or side quests may include language. 578 00:32:09,400 --> 00:32:11,240 We wouldn't ourselves use in the Guild. 579 00:32:11,780 --> 00:32:16,080 If you are uncertain about a word avoid using it, or ask a Guild guide, 580 00:32:16,430 --> 00:32:20,920 members must avoid sexualized comments about characters or actual 581 00:32:20,920 --> 00:32:24,960 harassment of real people. This does not refer to disagreements, 582 00:32:25,420 --> 00:32:30,320 but does include yet is not limited to slander or vulgar language 583 00:32:30,890 --> 00:32:34,040 moderators will help with resolutions as needed. 584 00:32:34,880 --> 00:32:37,300 So that last sentence there, faithful listener, uh, 585 00:32:37,300 --> 00:32:40,360 keeps things a little bit more open ended. Uh, 586 00:32:40,390 --> 00:32:43,320 some things are gonna be subjective. We recognize that, 587 00:32:43,660 --> 00:32:46,240 but apart from the one scenario I mentioned earlier, uh, 588 00:32:46,240 --> 00:32:49,280 I can't recall that we've actually had any issues with this. Zach, 589 00:32:49,280 --> 00:32:52,720 it seems that more people embrace this with relief, uh, 590 00:32:52,720 --> 00:32:55,360 rather than Shaf against it with annoyance. Uh, 591 00:32:55,360 --> 00:33:00,080 we haven't had people coming in there, uh, misusing God's title or God's name, 592 00:33:00,540 --> 00:33:03,960 uh, and using vulgarities that, uh, would violate the spirit, 593 00:33:04,020 --> 00:33:06,680 if not the law of a verse like Ephesians five, four. 594 00:33:07,750 --> 00:33:09,090 You know, just this weekend, 595 00:33:09,570 --> 00:33:14,210 I was online and saw a post from someone I follow just well known, 596 00:33:14,430 --> 00:33:18,810 um, political type who happens to be a Christian. And, uh, 597 00:33:18,810 --> 00:33:22,370 someone commented underneath that and said, you know, I, I respect you. 598 00:33:22,490 --> 00:33:25,210 I follow you. I support your work. You're doing great, 599 00:33:25,310 --> 00:33:30,210 but can you please not say OMG, because that is taking God's name in vain. 600 00:33:30,710 --> 00:33:33,850 And I was like, well, well, that's great. You know, like, and, 601 00:33:33,850 --> 00:33:35,610 and I think we all need that again. It's like, 602 00:33:35,610 --> 00:33:40,300 we need to sort of correct ourselves, sharpen each other by saying, 603 00:33:40,300 --> 00:33:44,580 let let's kinda leave that aside that that's gonna be on, you know, 604 00:33:44,580 --> 00:33:48,370 the Twitter sphere, the Facebook verse, but in here, we, 605 00:33:48,430 --> 00:33:53,370 we really want to be careful to honor God by not taking his name 606 00:33:53,370 --> 00:33:54,810 in vain. And, and that's, you know, 607 00:33:55,930 --> 00:34:00,480 using those initials is obviously just the first step in this, 608 00:34:00,980 --> 00:34:04,270 uh, honoring this commandment. But, um, yeah, 609 00:34:04,270 --> 00:34:07,750 it can be very easy to slip into, uh, vulgarity, 610 00:34:07,750 --> 00:34:11,270 be easy to slip into profanity. Uh, and like you said, 611 00:34:11,270 --> 00:34:14,790 it it's very easy with acronyms, so there's a lot of acronyms we could use that. 612 00:34:15,610 --> 00:34:19,030 Uh, we're not going to mention on the era, this is not the George Carlin, uh, 613 00:34:19,030 --> 00:34:22,980 podcast, but, um, you know, and Steven, 614 00:34:23,290 --> 00:34:25,540 this was my life before I was a Christian. I, 615 00:34:25,900 --> 00:34:30,180 I had plenty of profanity in my everyday speech and it took through a couple 616 00:34:30,180 --> 00:34:33,700 years of college when I started walking with the Lord to really work that out in 617 00:34:33,700 --> 00:34:36,990 my system. And it's not that I never, you know, I, I don't wanna say I, 618 00:34:37,140 --> 00:34:41,100 I've never used a swear word since then. I, um, but I, 619 00:34:41,220 --> 00:34:45,220 I try very hard not to let that be part of my normal conversation. 620 00:34:45,240 --> 00:34:49,260 And I think the holy spirit just has to work in a person's life, um, 621 00:34:49,600 --> 00:34:54,070 to remove that. But yeah, we, we don't want this to be a, uh, a, 622 00:34:54,150 --> 00:34:57,790 a place full of that. I mean, we want this to be family friendly and I, 623 00:34:57,910 --> 00:35:02,310 I don't know what the minimum age limit of discord is or what even we'd feel 624 00:35:02,310 --> 00:35:04,630 comfortable with, I guess it's 13 or 16 or something like that. 625 00:35:04,630 --> 00:35:08,390 I think 13 has been the in theory standard for a lot of social media. 626 00:35:08,670 --> 00:35:12,390 I think that is the same for discord, but I mean, if it was, you know, 627 00:35:12,600 --> 00:35:14,950 eight years old or 31 years old for that matter, 628 00:35:15,150 --> 00:35:18,430 I think we would still want to avoid this kind of language. I'm noting. 629 00:35:18,430 --> 00:35:22,110 Here's exactly. We put, uh, the, the, uh, the bands on vulgarity and profanity, 630 00:35:22,110 --> 00:35:23,550 which by the way, are different, uh, 631 00:35:23,550 --> 00:35:25,990 vulgar are about bodily functions and such like, 632 00:35:25,990 --> 00:35:29,870 and profanity is specifically about a divine language or, you know, 633 00:35:30,050 --> 00:35:32,910 places that you end up, uh, after death. Uh, 634 00:35:32,910 --> 00:35:36,270 those are two different things and Christians can debate about what word counts 635 00:35:36,270 --> 00:35:38,120 as what, and that's why, why we put the catch all there, 636 00:35:38,120 --> 00:35:41,520 that moderators will help with resolutions as needed. It really comes down to, 637 00:35:42,100 --> 00:35:46,040 uh, moderator decisions if we have a, a difficult case of some kind. 638 00:35:46,580 --> 00:35:48,320 But I did notice that we put in there, uh, 639 00:35:48,320 --> 00:35:53,200 the rule on language and the rule on harassment, uh, in the same place. And I, 640 00:35:53,420 --> 00:35:56,520 I'm looking at that now and kind of interpreting in part my own work there. 641 00:35:56,540 --> 00:35:59,800 And I'm thinking that the reason why both of those go into one tenant, 642 00:35:59,800 --> 00:36:03,720 number three of the code of honor, is that the root there is anger. Uh, 643 00:36:03,950 --> 00:36:08,360 both of these are violations of the rule earlier, respect everyone. 644 00:36:08,460 --> 00:36:10,880 If you're respecting everyone, you're not going to harass them, 645 00:36:10,880 --> 00:36:14,120 and you're not going to use vulgarity's profanities and misuses of God's title, 646 00:36:14,340 --> 00:36:19,080 cetera, uh, showing respect, rules out these things automatically. 647 00:36:19,180 --> 00:36:21,600 So number three really just comes off of number two. 648 00:36:22,500 --> 00:36:25,600 And if you have a different spirit in your heart, 649 00:36:25,620 --> 00:36:28,400 if you have an attitude toward love and respect, I, 650 00:36:28,440 --> 00:36:32,000 I think that's going to be the change from within whether you're a Christian or 651 00:36:32,000 --> 00:36:34,640 not, but most likely if you're a Christian, cuz it's the holy spirit doing that, 652 00:36:34,640 --> 00:36:34,920 you know, 653 00:36:34,920 --> 00:36:38,280 you can work on that on your self and try to fix yourself and respect people and 654 00:36:38,280 --> 00:36:38,520 all that. 655 00:36:38,520 --> 00:36:41,720 But I think it's ultimately gonna be harder if you're not a Christian and 656 00:36:41,720 --> 00:36:44,680 eternally, it's not going to count, but in either case, 657 00:36:44,840 --> 00:36:48,000 I think you are capable of showing respect and love toward other people, uh, 658 00:36:48,000 --> 00:36:52,160 that will lead naturally toward avoiding these kinds of habits of harassment and 659 00:36:52,160 --> 00:36:55,440 such, uh, without you having to have a specific rule about it. 660 00:36:55,440 --> 00:36:59,200 And that's the type of person, uh, we want to attract it to be a hero, 661 00:36:59,300 --> 00:37:01,360 to be rightly called a hero in the Lord Haven Guild. 662 00:37:01,590 --> 00:37:01,880 Well, 663 00:37:01,880 --> 00:37:05,440 and this is to say nothing of the fact that discord allows you to block people 664 00:37:05,460 --> 00:37:08,240 or mute things or whatever. And so, uh, 665 00:37:08,240 --> 00:37:12,200 frankly I would guess that people just do that first before complaining to a 666 00:37:12,200 --> 00:37:16,280 moderator. Um, it's just so easy to do that, you know, with digital media, but, 667 00:37:16,980 --> 00:37:20,680 um, but we don't really want it to come to that point either. We, 668 00:37:20,860 --> 00:37:24,280 we don't want a atmosphere where that's happening. Cause as I've said, 669 00:37:24,280 --> 00:37:27,960 there are plenty of other forums that you can join where this is the norm. 670 00:37:28,320 --> 00:37:30,560 I actually do want to talk here about one in particular. 671 00:37:30,700 --> 00:37:34,200 So when we had Shane Morris on to talk about wheel of time, uh, 672 00:37:34,200 --> 00:37:36,200 I mentioned how there is a, uh, 673 00:37:36,200 --> 00:37:40,520 the official forum for a wheel of time on Reddit or the, the sub Reddit, 674 00:37:40,520 --> 00:37:42,120 I guess I should say. Uh, 675 00:37:42,120 --> 00:37:47,040 they do not really allow or encourage any criticism of 676 00:37:47,040 --> 00:37:51,960 wheel of time. It's a subreddit run as far as I can tell by the actual 677 00:37:52,590 --> 00:37:55,320 show, uh, the, the Amazon show for wheel of time. 678 00:37:55,420 --> 00:37:58,040 Now there are some other subreddits that are just about the books, 679 00:37:58,740 --> 00:38:03,000 but the one that's about the show had a ton of people show up and criticize it 680 00:38:03,180 --> 00:38:07,120 and rightly so for any number of things. Um, 681 00:38:07,300 --> 00:38:10,680 and all of those people were little by little removed from there. 682 00:38:10,740 --> 00:38:11,600 So they got together, 683 00:38:11,600 --> 00:38:15,440 created a subreddit called the white cloaks which if you read the book 684 00:38:15,460 --> 00:38:19,760 is kind of ironic and I'm not gonna go on all that. But, uh, 685 00:38:19,760 --> 00:38:23,920 the latest thing I've learned is that that subreddit has now been locked down by 686 00:38:23,920 --> 00:38:25,840 the admins of Reddit. 687 00:38:26,100 --> 00:38:26,933 Oh, wow. Um. 688 00:38:27,310 --> 00:38:28,760 Yeah. So there was, uh, 689 00:38:29,070 --> 00:38:33,430 some kind of conflict between the mods of that subreddit and the kind of the 690 00:38:33,430 --> 00:38:37,200 overall admins that are, you know, employed by Reddit. 691 00:38:37,630 --> 00:38:41,360 What the admins did was basically flag every post. 692 00:38:41,360 --> 00:38:43,120 That's not by a mod is spam. 693 00:38:43,740 --> 00:38:47,850 And so a mod would have to approve each post manually, 694 00:38:47,850 --> 00:38:50,170 but the mods are still allowed to post and people are allowed to comment, 695 00:38:50,190 --> 00:38:51,130 but there's only three of them. 696 00:38:51,590 --> 00:38:55,370 And there were thousands of people in that sub in the last I checked. 697 00:38:56,150 --> 00:38:59,410 So the traffic there has, is ground to a halt. 698 00:38:59,410 --> 00:39:01,810 And I imagine that was the whole point of this. 699 00:39:01,810 --> 00:39:06,550 That it's cause what Reddit has done is just totally kicked off 700 00:39:06,800 --> 00:39:09,310 subreddits and, and users completely from Reddit. 701 00:39:09,850 --> 00:39:12,210 And that's gotten them a lot of blowbacks. 702 00:39:12,210 --> 00:39:17,150 So now I think this is the new tactic to sort of bleed a subreddit dry that they 703 00:39:17,150 --> 00:39:21,310 don't like the admins weren't entirely wrong about some of the problems in that 704 00:39:21,310 --> 00:39:24,910 subreddit, Reddit doesn't disallow, profanity or vulgarity, 705 00:39:24,910 --> 00:39:26,670 but they do disallow harassment. 706 00:39:27,370 --> 00:39:31,710 And there do seem to be some cases where there was harassment or brig of other 707 00:39:32,770 --> 00:39:34,430 forums. But at the same time, 708 00:39:34,960 --> 00:39:39,310 there were much harsher rules and enforcement applied to this subreddit. 709 00:39:39,330 --> 00:39:43,270 And so the internet is not at the equal opportunity place. 710 00:39:43,270 --> 00:39:45,510 We all thought it would be in the nineties. I, 711 00:39:45,590 --> 00:39:49,350 I remember when it was fun and when it was cool and it's become something else 712 00:39:49,350 --> 00:39:52,710 that's being taken over by mega corpse and whatnot, 713 00:39:53,740 --> 00:39:56,800 but critique of shows is, is totally allowed, 714 00:39:56,980 --> 00:40:00,360 but we don't allow harassment of people. Those are entirely different things. 715 00:40:00,420 --> 00:40:02,320 And, and that extends also to the, 716 00:40:02,380 --> 00:40:06,600 the creators and the actors and whatever the other people involved in the 717 00:40:06,680 --> 00:40:07,180 creative process. 718 00:40:07,180 --> 00:40:11,800 Now we're mostly talking about Christian books so the, 719 00:40:11,800 --> 00:40:15,960 the feelings are much, uh, you know, the temperature is already a lot lower. I, 720 00:40:16,040 --> 00:40:19,200 I think on the books that we mostly talk about, but you know, 721 00:40:19,340 --> 00:40:22,280 we have a middle earth forum. We have another, uh, 722 00:40:22,280 --> 00:40:24,920 we have another channel about your current reads and you know, 723 00:40:24,920 --> 00:40:29,380 we're gonna be talking about other, uh, intellectual property out there. 724 00:40:29,600 --> 00:40:33,620 So hopefully this can become a template like what we're doing in the Guild. 725 00:40:33,960 --> 00:40:35,980 We hope that this can become a template for you. 726 00:40:36,080 --> 00:40:40,660 Our listener to create a local community, a book club, a watch party, 727 00:40:41,260 --> 00:40:43,060 a board game group, whatever we, 728 00:40:43,060 --> 00:40:46,980 we hope that this can help you kind of apply these principles to other 729 00:40:46,980 --> 00:40:48,060 communities you might be in. 730 00:40:48,890 --> 00:40:50,380 Yeah. This here to me, 731 00:40:50,410 --> 00:40:54,340 Zach seems to be a fence around offense around offense where we say members must 732 00:40:54,340 --> 00:40:58,700 avoid sexualized comments about characters or actual harassment of real people. 733 00:40:59,120 --> 00:41:01,420 Are those the same thing kind of, uh, 734 00:41:01,420 --> 00:41:04,220 because if you're going to act that way towards a character, 735 00:41:04,330 --> 00:41:07,220 then you're probably also going to act that way towards a real person. 736 00:41:07,350 --> 00:41:11,540 Who's your neighbor in the forum or the creative group, because to you, 737 00:41:11,540 --> 00:41:13,820 they're a character, just the same as a character in a book. 738 00:41:13,820 --> 00:41:17,620 They're not real person. You can just make anything, uh, you want up about them. 739 00:41:18,280 --> 00:41:21,500 Uh, that's not correct. That's not a good posture for a Christian to have, 740 00:41:21,560 --> 00:41:23,420 or a member of a Christian group to have. 741 00:41:23,440 --> 00:41:26,580 So that's why we grouped those together. We did, however, uh, 742 00:41:26,640 --> 00:41:30,780 put in a kind of a disclaimer there, this does not refer to disagreements. 743 00:41:30,840 --> 00:41:32,060 We said because right. 744 00:41:32,580 --> 00:41:36,200 Although it's less of a risk in some internet communities or creative groups 745 00:41:36,270 --> 00:41:40,040 than actual harassment, uh, you will get people, uh, who will say, well, 746 00:41:40,040 --> 00:41:42,520 that person is harassing me. Okay. Well, what was the harassment? 747 00:41:42,790 --> 00:41:45,840 They disagreed with me. They want to erase me. Like, I mean, 748 00:41:45,840 --> 00:41:47,880 that's the kind of thing. Like I said, offense around fence. We, 749 00:41:47,880 --> 00:41:51,480 we don't even wanna get anywhere near that level of conflict, uh, 750 00:41:51,480 --> 00:41:54,280 in a community like the Guild. Uh, but it does happen. 751 00:41:54,460 --> 00:41:57,440 So we have that language in there, you know, just in case, I mean, 752 00:41:57,440 --> 00:42:00,200 who knows whether this thing will outlive us all or whether, you know, 753 00:42:00,200 --> 00:42:02,800 we'll pass to another creative team at some point, 754 00:42:02,960 --> 00:42:07,480 I want that precedent in there, uh, if at all possible. Uh, but we, 755 00:42:07,500 --> 00:42:12,320 we want to ultimately define harassment by the leadership of the 756 00:42:12,320 --> 00:42:15,840 Guild, which will be exclusively biblical Christian leadership. Uh, 757 00:42:15,840 --> 00:42:18,480 harassment does not get to be defined by the person, 758 00:42:19,080 --> 00:42:22,640 although very likely in the Guild, if, uh, someone, uh, 759 00:42:22,700 --> 00:42:26,080 if you feel like you're being harassed, uh, you probably are. I mean, 760 00:42:26,080 --> 00:42:29,160 that's the kind of person we want to attract the kind of person who is not 761 00:42:29,670 --> 00:42:31,560 disputative in that way. Uh, 762 00:42:31,560 --> 00:42:35,840 it feels to me it's a lot easier to join a subreddit or Reddit or whatever you 763 00:42:35,840 --> 00:42:38,720 call them over there, uh, than it would be easy to join the Guild. 764 00:42:38,860 --> 00:42:43,120 It is free to subscribe, uh, but you do have to jump through a portal or two, 765 00:42:43,220 --> 00:42:47,120 uh, which itself, uh, brings a, a sense of exclusivity, uh, 766 00:42:47,120 --> 00:42:50,520 that we really wanna preserve. You know, it's not a, a gated community, 767 00:42:50,620 --> 00:42:54,040 you know, where you have to have a particular income level or else you can't, 768 00:42:54,040 --> 00:42:57,960 uh, rent this condo. Uh, but there is a gate, uh, 769 00:42:57,960 --> 00:43:01,040 there is a gate and hopefully it's a little bit more narrow than you would 770 00:43:01,040 --> 00:43:03,120 usually get with another, uh, creative group out there. 771 00:43:03,550 --> 00:43:06,280 Yeah. Cause again, back to that white cloaks group, 772 00:43:06,840 --> 00:43:10,920 I like that there was open discussion about the show. I didn't like that. It, 773 00:43:10,990 --> 00:43:15,960 that became very vulgar profane in, in lots of other things. And so, you know, 774 00:43:15,990 --> 00:43:17,200 that wasn't a great community, 775 00:43:17,340 --> 00:43:21,320 but I also don't like that it was shut down anyway. We're, 776 00:43:21,320 --> 00:43:22,800 we're trying to avoid again, all that, 777 00:43:22,940 --> 00:43:25,600 the dumpster fire of Reddit here in the Guild. 778 00:43:26,070 --> 00:43:29,280 Yeah. And for more on that, you, you can go to our episode 122, 779 00:43:29,300 --> 00:43:32,440 why are more fans turning against their favorite franchises? Uh, 780 00:43:32,540 --> 00:43:36,560 try to explore some of the, some of the, uh, the, the angry heart, uh, 781 00:43:36,580 --> 00:43:40,320 the grieving heart that can lead to that type of anger in, uh, 782 00:43:40,320 --> 00:43:42,800 fan communities about shows like that. Uh, 783 00:43:42,800 --> 00:43:45,720 there may be a time to grieve and work through the, of grief, 784 00:43:45,820 --> 00:43:50,040 but don't smother over your grief with anger, uh, get over it, move on. 785 00:43:50,250 --> 00:43:52,400 There are probably better stories out there that, uh, 786 00:43:52,400 --> 00:43:54,480 won't make you so angry and grieving about them. 787 00:43:55,580 --> 00:43:58,280 So speaking of some political controversies, uh, 788 00:43:58,280 --> 00:44:03,040 this next tenet of the code of honor also required a lot of input, uh, from, 789 00:44:03,140 --> 00:44:05,680 uh, the creative team at Laura Haven. Uh, 790 00:44:05,750 --> 00:44:09,480 some political topics after all people won't make call them political, 791 00:44:09,660 --> 00:44:13,160 but they're not really political. They actually do relate, uh, 792 00:44:13,160 --> 00:44:15,000 to how we worked out our Christian faith. 793 00:44:15,260 --> 00:44:17,520 And they relate to some of the books that we'll be enjoying. 794 00:44:17,520 --> 00:44:22,120 So we don't wanna just say no politics. You can stop talking about politics. 795 00:44:22,340 --> 00:44:25,080 That's bad. We don't wanna say that. But at the same time, 796 00:44:25,080 --> 00:44:30,080 we do want to specify particular things to leave out of Guild discussions, 797 00:44:30,150 --> 00:44:34,720 take them to your comment section somewhere or your water cooler at work. Uh, 798 00:44:34,720 --> 00:44:39,000 but not at the Guild. Here's what it says. Four beware of political issues, 799 00:44:39,630 --> 00:44:44,520 some books and their quests may naturally explore moral issues 800 00:44:44,520 --> 00:44:46,560 that relate to political conflicts. 801 00:44:46,980 --> 00:44:51,640 We encourage gracious discussion of these ideas and themes as specifically 802 00:44:51,640 --> 00:44:52,840 related to the books, 803 00:44:53,580 --> 00:44:58,080 but members must avoid active discussion of specific political leaders, 804 00:44:58,350 --> 00:45:00,400 parties, or public policy. 805 00:45:01,440 --> 00:45:04,910 Those last three items there I think are important. Uh, 806 00:45:04,910 --> 00:45:09,110 we don't want political leaders or candidates being name checked on the forum. 807 00:45:09,450 --> 00:45:13,470 We don't want any want anybody, uh, trying to start a discussion about, Hey, 808 00:45:13,470 --> 00:45:18,350 it was so and so, uh, proposition here in my state, uh, anybody else, uh, 809 00:45:18,350 --> 00:45:22,270 from the state of Iowa, you know, who you gonna vote for in the primaries in, 810 00:45:22,270 --> 00:45:25,070 uh, 20, 23 or 2024? Uh, 811 00:45:25,130 --> 00:45:28,830 any of that stuff is just going to get absolutely shut down and no one's tried 812 00:45:28,830 --> 00:45:31,990 it, uh, because the types of books we attract, uh, seem to understand this. 813 00:45:32,410 --> 00:45:35,870 We don't wanna talk about parties and we don't wanna talk about specific, uh, 814 00:45:35,870 --> 00:45:38,630 bills, uh, public policies, rules, laws, all that stuff. 815 00:45:38,630 --> 00:45:41,870 There's a place for that. Not evil. Christians gotta do it, 816 00:45:42,010 --> 00:45:43,590 but you don't gotta do it here, 817 00:45:44,170 --> 00:45:48,670 but we have had some discussion, uh, about for example, 818 00:45:49,090 --> 00:45:53,790 um, pro-life ethics like that will figure into discussions of the books, uh, 819 00:45:53,790 --> 00:45:55,550 that we're talking about. Uh, 820 00:45:55,550 --> 00:45:58,790 that's going to come up at least in an illusion here or there, 821 00:45:58,790 --> 00:46:02,550 and you can bet we, we kept a bit of a sharp eye on those just in case, 822 00:46:02,690 --> 00:46:04,670 cuz we didn't want it to, uh, 823 00:46:04,810 --> 00:46:09,310 get out of control or spiral off from the more fiction centered 824 00:46:09,310 --> 00:46:14,230 discussions. But it, it didn't last too long. Uh, and as the election year, 825 00:46:14,230 --> 00:46:18,030 at least the United States is drawing closer or the election season really it's 826 00:46:18,030 --> 00:46:21,870 a midterms here, uh, as we record this, but in 2024, 827 00:46:21,870 --> 00:46:25,390 things are gonna get even more heated. So we will see how well, uh, 828 00:46:25,390 --> 00:46:27,950 ten four here, the code of honor holds up. Uh, 829 00:46:28,310 --> 00:46:32,350 I definitely want to keep that one, uh, intact, uh, 830 00:46:32,350 --> 00:46:36,550 but if we need to address, uh, particular instances, uh, we certainly will, uh, 831 00:46:36,550 --> 00:46:39,830 as a leadership team and Zach, uh, actually come to think of it, duh, 832 00:46:39,830 --> 00:46:42,070 this is the part where I talk about, uh, that, uh, 833 00:46:42,070 --> 00:46:44,270 particular prime debate that's coming up, uh, 834 00:46:44,270 --> 00:46:47,110 because we have had some discussion about whether or not people are going to 835 00:46:47,110 --> 00:46:50,790 watch that show, uh, which is not again, not, 836 00:46:51,070 --> 00:46:54,750 I would say the fans' fault that it's gotten politically charged, uh, 837 00:46:54,750 --> 00:46:56,950 because regardless of what the cast members looked like, 838 00:46:57,590 --> 00:47:01,830 a lot of the early marketing, at least for the show led with, uh, all of the, 839 00:47:01,970 --> 00:47:05,750 uh, diversity language and more political type language, uh, 840 00:47:05,750 --> 00:47:09,230 that is at least associated with political agendas. 841 00:47:09,370 --> 00:47:12,470 And that was just a weird marketing decision. 842 00:47:12,650 --> 00:47:17,550 And unfortunately it's left many fans with a very bad taste about this 843 00:47:17,550 --> 00:47:21,430 particular show. Uh, how are we going to talk about it on the Guild? Um, 844 00:47:21,790 --> 00:47:22,870 I don't know, uh, 845 00:47:22,870 --> 00:47:26,110 we may need to put in some guidelines in the middle earth channel. 846 00:47:26,110 --> 00:47:30,440 Haven't had a chance to do that yet, but it's, it's, it's a test case again, uh, 847 00:47:30,440 --> 00:47:33,320 that we may be keeping an eye on, cuz we don't wanna say don't talk about it. 848 00:47:33,320 --> 00:47:34,360 It's a bad show. You know, 849 00:47:34,360 --> 00:47:38,640 like someone may watch the show completely free of the stigma attached by the 850 00:47:38,640 --> 00:47:41,560 super Van's Amazon video or anything like that. Oops. I said the, 851 00:47:41,560 --> 00:47:46,200 a word there , that's fine. You may still enjoy it. 852 00:47:46,260 --> 00:47:49,960 You may not have ever read token or his materials about the second age. 853 00:47:50,020 --> 00:47:53,920 You know, it may be fan fiction and you're perfectly fine with that. Uh, 854 00:47:53,920 --> 00:47:55,640 it may not be an evil show. 855 00:47:55,700 --> 00:47:58,560 It may not have a political agenda in the show itself, 856 00:47:58,590 --> 00:48:03,320 just in the marketing who knows in that case, God bless you enjoy it. Uh, 857 00:48:03,320 --> 00:48:08,000 the rest of us just may not enjoy it as much because we've seen too much. Uh, 858 00:48:08,250 --> 00:48:10,680 we'll be keeping an eye. We'll be keeping an eye on it. 859 00:48:10,790 --> 00:48:14,000 Yeah. I, I think from now on now that you've let the cat outta the bag, 860 00:48:14,120 --> 00:48:17,880 I think I'm just gonna refer to this new show as Jeff Bezos's fan fiction. 861 00:48:18,110 --> 00:48:20,400 That that's just the only way to cover it. Well, I've. 862 00:48:20,400 --> 00:48:23,600 Seen a few less flattering labels used to, to describe the title. Yeah. 863 00:48:24,820 --> 00:48:26,800 But yeah, Steven, I, you make a good point there too. 864 00:48:27,450 --> 00:48:29,560 We're not gonna try to be party poopers either, 865 00:48:29,820 --> 00:48:33,480 so you're fine to enjoy the show. That's totally fine. And, 866 00:48:34,020 --> 00:48:38,000 and people can have different reactions to the angle that Amazon is taking. 867 00:48:38,360 --> 00:48:41,520 I think, um, Amazon made a very clear decision of, 868 00:48:41,630 --> 00:48:46,200 they want to capture the cultural zeitgeist and make this for a totally 869 00:48:46,460 --> 00:48:50,760 new set of concerns that people have. That was their primary audience. 870 00:48:50,760 --> 00:48:54,640 That was their primary agenda. Um, we'll see how that works out for them, 871 00:48:55,220 --> 00:48:55,840 but you know, 872 00:48:55,840 --> 00:49:00,280 I wanna actually go from there to something else that's often said about sci-fi 873 00:49:00,280 --> 00:49:03,800 fantasy kind of in the larger world, which is, uh, well, 874 00:49:03,800 --> 00:49:07,640 science fiction has always been political or, or how about this one? 875 00:49:07,900 --> 00:49:11,800 The personal is political and I just, 876 00:49:11,960 --> 00:49:16,360 I stand completely opposed to these mindsets because that's a totalitarian 877 00:49:16,390 --> 00:49:20,680 impulse that politics should invade every aspect of your life. 878 00:49:21,100 --> 00:49:24,490 Everything in your life should be repurposed to survey political cause. 879 00:49:24,790 --> 00:49:27,370 And we just totally reject that here at law Haven life, 880 00:49:27,560 --> 00:49:31,170 life is so much bigger than who you're voting for or what parties in power, 881 00:49:31,240 --> 00:49:36,170 what policies are happening because the church has survived 2000 years of 882 00:49:36,190 --> 00:49:41,090 all kinds of governments and, and foolish leaders and foolish policies. And, 883 00:49:41,110 --> 00:49:45,090 and so have books books have been around and will be around much longer than, 884 00:49:45,160 --> 00:49:46,970 than people who are doing silly things. 885 00:49:48,040 --> 00:49:52,370 It's fine to talk about moral issues because those supersede and outlast the 886 00:49:52,370 --> 00:49:56,120 political realities. But at the end of the day, you know, 887 00:49:56,130 --> 00:50:01,040 don't confuse an ideology for your identity. Uh, don't take on, 888 00:50:01,850 --> 00:50:05,030 you know, one of these, um, uh, slogans or, 889 00:50:05,050 --> 00:50:09,630 or mindsets as who you are. And then when people disagree with that, 890 00:50:10,050 --> 00:50:13,190 you feel personally attacked. That's not right either. And again, 891 00:50:13,190 --> 00:50:16,310 that's that totalitarian impulse that keeps getting pushed on us. 892 00:50:17,260 --> 00:50:21,080 So we're gonna talk about some issues that come up, but yeah, 893 00:50:21,080 --> 00:50:24,400 we just gotta be careful with the really hot button ones, you know, and, 894 00:50:24,400 --> 00:50:26,760 and follow everything that we've already talked about up till. 895 00:50:26,760 --> 00:50:30,240 This point. Exactly. I heartedly agree with that. Uh, 896 00:50:30,240 --> 00:50:35,000 ultimately it is super political in what we're trying to accomplish here, uh, 897 00:50:35,020 --> 00:50:38,000 in the, in the Laura Haven Guild, uh, these are moral issues, 898 00:50:38,000 --> 00:50:42,440 issues of imagination and personhood that are foundational to the political 899 00:50:42,440 --> 00:50:46,600 controversies that we have in other parts of the world. You've gotta have those. 900 00:50:46,620 --> 00:50:50,240 You absolutely must. Yeah. Those fine to have that culture stories, 901 00:50:50,470 --> 00:50:53,280 imagination informs those issues. So, right. 902 00:50:53,280 --> 00:50:55,520 Why would you jump to the shallow end of the pool? Uh, 903 00:50:55,520 --> 00:50:58,760 hopefully we're trying to go a little bit deeper into the, uh, 904 00:50:58,760 --> 00:51:00,960 human psyche by way of fantastical imagination. 905 00:51:01,630 --> 00:51:03,780 Let's move to chapter three here in a moment. Uh, 906 00:51:03,780 --> 00:51:06,740 this ordinarily would be the place for a third sponsor. Uh, 907 00:51:06,740 --> 00:51:10,740 we've left that spot empty, but just so you know, faithful listener, uh, 908 00:51:10,740 --> 00:51:13,380 we will be having from here on out, uh, three sponsors, 909 00:51:13,440 --> 00:51:18,260 one per chapter of each of our podcast episodes. So going forward, who knows, 910 00:51:18,350 --> 00:51:21,740 maybe you could be in this spot two faithful listener, 911 00:51:21,970 --> 00:51:26,620 chapter three is called what positive themes do we promote in the lower Haven 912 00:51:26,710 --> 00:51:28,580 Guild? So we're gonna wrap up with, uh, 913 00:51:28,580 --> 00:51:30,780 the three last tenets of the code of honor here. 914 00:51:31,090 --> 00:51:34,300 This is where it gets a little bit more fun. Uh, we did the, uh, heavier stuff, 915 00:51:34,360 --> 00:51:35,820 uh, just in the last, uh, chapter. 916 00:51:36,400 --> 00:51:40,780 And this is where we really wanted to end with more positive endorsement of what 917 00:51:40,780 --> 00:51:43,900 we're hoping to accomplish in any of our book quests and other story 918 00:51:43,900 --> 00:51:45,260 explorations in the Guild. 919 00:51:45,720 --> 00:51:50,460 Number five here makes clear our goal to focus on fans of fiction, 920 00:51:50,840 --> 00:51:52,100 not the writing of fiction, 921 00:51:52,240 --> 00:51:57,140 simply because of our focus at Laura Haven five celebrate fandom. 922 00:51:57,160 --> 00:52:01,420 Our quest is to explore Christian made fantastical stories. As readers, 923 00:52:01,940 --> 00:52:05,980 aspiring writers can find many other communities about creative work in the 924 00:52:05,980 --> 00:52:10,540 Guild. We will keep all our quests focused on delighted discerning fans. 925 00:52:11,050 --> 00:52:14,740 Fantastic authors need the wisdom of Proverbs 27 2, 926 00:52:15,160 --> 00:52:17,340 let another praise you and not your own mouth, 927 00:52:17,700 --> 00:52:20,220 a stranger and not your own lips. 928 00:52:21,010 --> 00:52:25,860 This one in retrospect is fascinating to me because I'm, 929 00:52:25,880 --> 00:52:26,980 I'm looking at that now. 930 00:52:27,120 --> 00:52:30,420 And to the extent that I had input into the language here, I'm thinking, 931 00:52:30,450 --> 00:52:31,940 what was I thinking about that? 932 00:52:31,960 --> 00:52:34,860 And I was probably thinking about writers groups, 933 00:52:35,310 --> 00:52:38,020 where the writers who are very enthusiastic, 934 00:52:38,020 --> 00:52:40,540 especially if you're a Christian and have had trouble finding a writing 935 00:52:40,540 --> 00:52:41,940 community. Uh, you, 936 00:52:42,040 --> 00:52:46,620 you find one that seems to be talking about books and in the imagination books 937 00:52:47,120 --> 00:52:51,540 equals writing sometimes. Well, not necessarily. Uh, there is a difference, 938 00:52:51,540 --> 00:52:55,580 like even good writers, I think, uh, professionals, uh, know to keep the shop, 939 00:52:55,610 --> 00:52:56,700 talk to the shop. 940 00:52:56,760 --> 00:52:59,740 And then if they're out at a library event or something you don't assume that 941 00:52:59,740 --> 00:53:03,380 everybody lining up to have, uh, their book signed by you, uh, is also a writer. 942 00:53:03,490 --> 00:53:07,220 There's going to be a difference in your emphasis there. And Laura Haven is, uh, 943 00:53:07,490 --> 00:53:11,580 near exclusively fan focused here to the extent that we talk about, uh, 944 00:53:11,580 --> 00:53:13,780 authors and shop talk and all that stuff, uh, 945 00:53:13,780 --> 00:53:18,220 we try to keep it very basic and very much emphasizing behind the scenes. Uh, 946 00:53:18,220 --> 00:53:23,220 kind of my example, there is the, uh, behind the scenes, uh, materials on, uh, 947 00:53:23,460 --> 00:53:27,920 I guess one of the discs, uh, for a movie like the Lord of the rings. 948 00:53:27,920 --> 00:53:31,440 For example, the film trilogy has some of the best behind the scenes material. 949 00:53:31,700 --> 00:53:35,280 And when they're taking you into the workshop to show the CA troll the cats and 950 00:53:35,280 --> 00:53:37,200 the chain mail that they're putting together by hand, 951 00:53:37,200 --> 00:53:41,880 and all of that at Witta led by to that's a bad New Zealand accent, of course, 952 00:53:42,190 --> 00:53:45,240 they're not giving you instructions for how to do it. 953 00:53:45,310 --> 00:53:48,840 They're not assuming that everybody watching is a craftsperson who wants to get 954 00:53:48,840 --> 00:53:49,720 into that industry. 955 00:53:49,790 --> 00:53:53,160 They're assuming that everybody who's watching is a fan of the Lord of the rings 956 00:53:53,160 --> 00:53:56,360 and wants to know how they made the movie magic down in New Zealand. 957 00:53:56,780 --> 00:53:58,840 So they will go into detail and they will show you, 958 00:53:58,840 --> 00:54:01,440 and they aren't seeming to try to hide their secrets, 959 00:54:01,780 --> 00:54:04,600 but they are keeping it more general. They are more keeping, 960 00:54:04,670 --> 00:54:07,880 they're keeping it more focused on the fans. So that's what we wanna do. 961 00:54:07,880 --> 00:54:10,640 If we talk about, like, for example, our saga coming up next month, 962 00:54:10,640 --> 00:54:13,200 Zach will give a little spoiler here, faithful listener. Uh, 963 00:54:13,200 --> 00:54:16,560 we're gonna go behind the scenes a little bit more talk about how these books, 964 00:54:16,580 --> 00:54:19,120 how these audio books get made, uh, 965 00:54:19,120 --> 00:54:21,120 introduce you to some of the people behind those, 966 00:54:21,420 --> 00:54:23,920 but it's not going to be a how to guide. 967 00:54:23,950 --> 00:54:27,880 It's not going to be instructional or professional development type stuff. Uh, 968 00:54:27,960 --> 00:54:31,040 I think that would be unfair and unnecessary. Anyway, Zach, 969 00:54:31,100 --> 00:54:33,440 if we were trying to step on the real maker's territory, 970 00:54:33,440 --> 00:54:37,760 like real makers and other Christian groups are introducing people to that 971 00:54:37,760 --> 00:54:41,760 network of creators, you know, the more, uh, industry side of things, 972 00:54:41,860 --> 00:54:43,800 the more professional development side of things. 973 00:54:43,900 --> 00:54:46,760 If you come into the Laurie Haven Guild saying, Hey, I wanna talk about my book. 974 00:54:46,800 --> 00:54:48,840 I wanna get somebody to read my book. Let's get some, uh, 975 00:54:48,840 --> 00:54:51,360 let's get some beta readers going. Let's get a critique group started. 976 00:54:51,900 --> 00:54:55,000 If you do that, we're gonna say, mm, no. Uh, 977 00:54:55,000 --> 00:54:59,040 look at number five here of the of the code of honor, uh, 978 00:54:59,060 --> 00:55:03,480 and go find real makers, go find another group. Uh, that's already doing that. 979 00:55:03,820 --> 00:55:06,760 Uh, they're not doing book quests and we're not doing, uh, writer, 980 00:55:07,080 --> 00:55:08,760 critique groups, and we're not talking about that stuff. 981 00:55:08,760 --> 00:55:10,280 We're going to focus on the fans. 982 00:55:10,710 --> 00:55:13,000 Yeah. And even better go start a local writers group. 983 00:55:13,520 --> 00:55:17,040 I think so much of this is just better handled in person with people that you 984 00:55:17,040 --> 00:55:19,480 get to know, and that's what I've done. 985 00:55:19,480 --> 00:55:23,260 And that's what I've really enjoyed others doing. But yes, 986 00:55:23,290 --> 00:55:27,900 this is a place to primarily be on the same footing that we're all 987 00:55:27,900 --> 00:55:31,860 readers here and it, and realistically, if you're a writer, 988 00:55:31,880 --> 00:55:33,460 that's not reading books, uh, 989 00:55:33,460 --> 00:55:37,140 you probably shouldn't be writing books until you go read a bunch of books. Uh, 990 00:55:37,440 --> 00:55:41,140 the, the most successful authors are huge readers, huge book worms. 991 00:55:41,680 --> 00:55:44,740 So that's gotta come first, no matter what, but yes, 992 00:55:44,740 --> 00:55:49,380 we don't wanna make this a two tiered society within the Guild that there's the, 993 00:55:49,890 --> 00:55:53,140 there's the people who are the cherished and celebrated writers. 994 00:55:53,320 --> 00:55:57,140 And then there's all the other, you know, peasants with their chickens. 995 00:55:57,280 --> 00:56:01,300 And so , uh, we wanna make this, uh, where everyone's on the, 996 00:56:01,440 --> 00:56:02,273 the same ground. 997 00:56:02,450 --> 00:56:03,420 Yeah. And there will, 998 00:56:03,420 --> 00:56:08,180 of course be many heroes of the Guild who are authors or who are aspiring 999 00:56:08,210 --> 00:56:12,060 authors. And we definitely welcome them because I think that statistically, 1000 00:56:12,060 --> 00:56:14,340 Zach, like, I haven't seen any surveys about this, 1001 00:56:15,080 --> 00:56:19,460 but it seems to me that folks who enjoy fantasy and science fiction and those 1002 00:56:19,460 --> 00:56:23,360 kinds of stories are more likely to try to write fan fiction, 1003 00:56:23,510 --> 00:56:26,800 just something in your personality or the fact that these, uh, 1004 00:56:26,800 --> 00:56:31,080 these genres have this kind of personality among their fans. Uh, 1005 00:56:31,080 --> 00:56:34,120 that's gonna lead you to be more likely to try to write the stuff, you know, 1006 00:56:34,120 --> 00:56:37,480 whereas I, I don't think that the same principal applies. Uh, 1007 00:56:37,480 --> 00:56:40,680 if you are someone who's, uh, a little bit of an older reader, you know, 1008 00:56:40,680 --> 00:56:43,360 maybe retired a local church member who enjoys, uh, 1009 00:56:43,360 --> 00:56:45,360 reading Christian Prairie romances. 1010 00:56:45,430 --> 00:56:49,440 It's probably less a chance that you're trying to write your own Prairie romance 1011 00:56:49,580 --> 00:56:53,200 and break into the Prairie romance industry. Uh, I'm not sure how that's going, 1012 00:56:53,260 --> 00:56:53,840 but it's, 1013 00:56:53,840 --> 00:56:58,040 it's not something that I've picked up on as I have among the fantasy of folks. 1014 00:56:58,180 --> 00:57:01,800 So that makes sense. Uh, again, it's simply a matter, not a morality, 1015 00:57:02,020 --> 00:57:06,200 but simply of focus. Uh, there exist groups for writing, uh, 1016 00:57:06,230 --> 00:57:07,920 take the writing questions over there. 1017 00:57:07,920 --> 00:57:10,560 Just like you would take the political questions over there. Yes. 1018 00:57:10,590 --> 00:57:13,320 It's gotta get done. Uh, we want those stories written. 1019 00:57:13,380 --> 00:57:16,720 We want them to get better. We want them published if they're great. Uh, 1020 00:57:16,720 --> 00:57:20,680 just not in the guilt everybody's you said Zach is, is on a level playing field, 1021 00:57:20,740 --> 00:57:24,800 you know, published authors and aspiring authors and simply fans alike. 1022 00:57:24,900 --> 00:57:29,080 And so far we found great success in focusing on that, 1023 00:57:29,080 --> 00:57:32,400 which also by the way, rules out a lot of those, uh, potentially heated, uh, 1024 00:57:32,400 --> 00:57:36,720 debate topics about publishing rules and whether or not Christians can write 1025 00:57:36,720 --> 00:57:39,760 about such and such and magic systems and things like that. Uh, 1026 00:57:39,800 --> 00:57:43,400 a lot of those just get taken off the table simply by focusing on fans first. 1027 00:57:43,830 --> 00:57:46,920 Yeah. And those, those discussions do need to be had just like we said, 1028 00:57:46,920 --> 00:57:49,800 the political discussions need to be had. It's just not here. 1029 00:57:49,800 --> 00:57:51,160 That's not what this is for. 1030 00:57:51,860 --> 00:57:52,440 So from there, 1031 00:57:52,440 --> 00:57:56,680 continuing the positive emphasis will go to number six of the code of honor. 1032 00:57:56,910 --> 00:58:00,640 This next is not a rule, but more like a suggestion, really a suggestion, uh, 1033 00:58:00,640 --> 00:58:02,560 because we want to promote this kind of spirit, 1034 00:58:02,560 --> 00:58:06,160 whether or not somebody actually wants to do that and come to think of it. I, I, 1035 00:58:06,160 --> 00:58:08,240 haven't done a whole lot of it myself. I'm my comments, 1036 00:58:08,240 --> 00:58:11,640 usually more straightforward than this, but if you want to number six, 1037 00:58:11,730 --> 00:58:14,320 enjoy your creative gifts. We don't require, 1038 00:58:14,380 --> 00:58:18,720 but we do encourage Guild members inquests to engage in virtual cosplay, 1039 00:58:19,220 --> 00:58:22,800 try taking personas of gall Knights, brave adventures, ship, captains, 1040 00:58:22,800 --> 00:58:25,640 monster hunters, or whatever suits you're, God-given imaginative, 1041 00:58:25,640 --> 00:58:29,440 fancy quest guides will lead in this imaginative world building. 1042 00:58:29,540 --> 00:58:34,400 If that's not how you create no pressure stay as normal as you like either way, 1043 00:58:34,400 --> 00:58:36,960 whether or not we engage in virtual cosplay. 1044 00:58:36,980 --> 00:58:41,200 We are all fans of fantastic stories. Zach, my inspiration there, 1045 00:58:41,360 --> 00:58:44,240 I will attribute the, uh, NAIA web forum, uh, 1046 00:58:44,240 --> 00:58:46,720 where I was a member for quite some time, uh, 1047 00:58:46,740 --> 00:58:51,080 before and after the release of the lion witch in wardrobe film in 2005, 1048 00:58:51,580 --> 00:58:54,720 uh, actually got to be a moderator there. And as we said on NA web, 1049 00:58:54,830 --> 00:58:58,560 once a modern, modest on NA web, always a modern, modest on nay web. 1050 00:58:58,620 --> 00:58:59,720 So I guess could, 1051 00:58:59,760 --> 00:59:03,400 I could always come back like king Edmond if I wanted to mm-hmm, uh, 1052 00:59:03,450 --> 00:59:05,840 Laura Haven and everything else, it keeps me pretty busy, 1053 00:59:06,300 --> 00:59:11,240 but there was a lot of this kind of light fend fiction. 1054 00:59:11,310 --> 00:59:16,040 Like people would change their user names or they would put a title, uh, 1055 00:59:16,040 --> 00:59:17,440 in their username there on the forum. 1056 00:59:17,510 --> 00:59:20,480 Kind of more like the fun days of the internet that you're always talking about 1057 00:59:20,510 --> 00:59:24,720 Zach back when the internet was good. Yeah. Uh, people would, for example, 1058 00:59:25,150 --> 00:59:30,120 join a thread that I started on a whim, uh, where I started what I called, uh, 1059 00:59:30,220 --> 00:59:34,720 the holy order of the spoiler free monastery in which I said that anybody who 1060 00:59:34,720 --> 00:59:39,240 wanted to, uh, could enter these August holes and walls, uh, 1061 00:59:39,240 --> 00:59:44,040 and take a vow of avoiding spoilers. So no roast on, 1062 00:59:44,060 --> 00:59:46,880 you know, monks or, you know, Catholicism or anything like that, 1063 00:59:46,910 --> 00:59:49,760 just having a good bit of clean fun there. Uh, 1064 00:59:49,780 --> 00:59:51,400 and it proved surprisingly popular. 1065 00:59:51,580 --> 00:59:54,960 It was the first time I think I'd ever gone viral on a forum. Uh, 1066 00:59:54,960 --> 00:59:59,040 lots of people flock into the virtual monastery. Uh, they took their vows, 1067 00:59:59,040 --> 01:00:02,560 they added their unique spins to them. Uh, they took up, uh, 1068 01:00:02,560 --> 01:00:04,760 roles in monastic service, you know, 1069 01:00:04,760 --> 01:00:09,120 whether or not they were going to clean the chandelier or scrub the floors or 1070 01:00:09,230 --> 01:00:13,600 take care of the rituals in particular, uh, mystical beverages and foods, 1071 01:00:13,700 --> 01:00:15,080 you know, it got really fun. 1072 01:00:15,220 --> 01:00:18,280 And ultimately I think I ended up being the most high Reverend father of the 1073 01:00:18,280 --> 01:00:21,960 holy order of the spoiler free monastery, a title that I also, uh, 1074 01:00:22,160 --> 01:00:23,080 preserve to this day. 1075 01:00:23,220 --> 01:00:26,680 So if we ever need a spoiler free monastery for something else, uh, 1076 01:00:26,800 --> 01:00:29,600 I may just open one up, uh, in the Lord Haven Guild this time. 1077 01:00:29,860 --> 01:00:32,040 That's the kind of spirit I'm I'm thinking of. And I, 1078 01:00:32,040 --> 01:00:35,960 I don't know if we've seen a whole lot of that now. Uh, it may require, 1079 01:00:36,020 --> 01:00:38,640 you know, some tweaking of the discord server, uh, 1080 01:00:38,640 --> 01:00:40,520 to enable more of that kind of thing, 1081 01:00:40,820 --> 01:00:43,240 but it is something that we definitely wanna keep an eye toward. 1082 01:00:43,300 --> 01:00:46,360 And I think it's a way to redirect some of the creative energies of the author 1083 01:00:46,360 --> 01:00:50,600 types to, you know, Hey, we, we respect the creativity that God has given you, 1084 01:00:50,600 --> 01:00:53,600 you know, let's turn that in service to the fandom. Uh, 1085 01:00:53,600 --> 01:00:56,520 even if you're not talking about the, your exact book or, you know, 1086 01:00:56,520 --> 01:01:00,680 giving critiques of other people's books, like we are all creatives here, uh, 1087 01:01:01,000 --> 01:01:04,520 creative, the noun, uh, as, uh, Andrew Peterson says in his book, 1088 01:01:04,520 --> 01:01:05,320 adorning the dark. 1089 01:01:05,320 --> 01:01:09,720 There's not a difference between creatives and non-creative because God has 1090 01:01:09,720 --> 01:01:12,200 given his gift of imagination to everyone. Uh, 1091 01:01:12,200 --> 01:01:14,560 this is an option for Gil heroes to have, uh, 1092 01:01:14,560 --> 01:01:16,360 while we are exploring the book quests. 1093 01:01:16,660 --> 01:01:18,040 You know, Steven you're exactly right, 1094 01:01:18,110 --> 01:01:21,880 that this rule number six really helps with rule number five, 1095 01:01:22,270 --> 01:01:24,120 because if you come to the Guild and, 1096 01:01:24,140 --> 01:01:28,000 and you wanna sort of play per pretend for lack of a better term, uh, 1097 01:01:28,000 --> 01:01:31,640 virtual cost play, as you said, you know, then that, that makes it more, 1098 01:01:31,640 --> 01:01:35,480 you're putting on that persona rather than I'm here as an author to promote my 1099 01:01:35,480 --> 01:01:37,080 book persona, uh, 1100 01:01:37,080 --> 01:01:41,120 because that is really the ban of a lot of Facebook groups I've joined. Uh, 1101 01:01:41,120 --> 01:01:45,960 there was one Facebook group I found a year or two ago, and it was, um, 1102 01:01:46,780 --> 01:01:50,240 you know, it, it was supposedly a reader's group. Uh, 1103 01:01:50,240 --> 01:01:52,600 but I scanned through all the posts as soon as I joined. 1104 01:01:52,700 --> 01:01:57,040 And they were all authors just promoting their own books, uh, 1105 01:01:57,040 --> 01:01:59,200 because that's what you're supposed to use social media for. 1106 01:01:59,200 --> 01:02:01,920 You're supposed to just promote yourself. Uh that's. 1107 01:02:01,920 --> 01:02:04,760 Yeah. That's what the gurus were saying. 15 years ago, 1108 01:02:05,500 --> 01:02:09,360 got a hold of an old dusty social media author promotion manual. Yeah. 1109 01:02:09,550 --> 01:02:13,800 Blew the dust off of it, shook loose the cobwebs and decided to give it a go. 1110 01:02:14,410 --> 01:02:16,960 Right. But I mean, that's what everyone uses social media for. 1111 01:02:16,960 --> 01:02:21,760 It's all about building your own personal brand now to the credit of the 1112 01:02:21,950 --> 01:02:25,240 moderator of that Facebook group. Um, I reached out and said, 1113 01:02:25,400 --> 01:02:28,640 I thought this was supposed to be a reader's group. Do y'all have rules about, 1114 01:02:28,900 --> 01:02:33,070 you know, no self-promotion spam. And, uh, this person said, you know what, 1115 01:02:33,070 --> 01:02:36,390 you're right. I I'm gonna start cracking down on that. And then they started a, 1116 01:02:36,780 --> 01:02:38,790 like a weekly or a monthly, like, okay, 1117 01:02:38,790 --> 01:02:41,150 here's the thread where you can put all your self-promotion, 1118 01:02:41,170 --> 01:02:42,430 but that that's it we're, 1119 01:02:42,430 --> 01:02:45,110 we're not gonna allow any other posts that are self-promotion yeah. 1120 01:02:45,110 --> 01:02:45,850 Work it outta your. 1121 01:02:45,850 --> 01:02:49,950 That's. Yeah. Right, exactly. Uh, so I, I appreciated that, 1122 01:02:50,050 --> 01:02:54,470 but you know, this is what always happens with social media. 1123 01:02:54,470 --> 01:02:57,100 People just want to talk about themselves. 1124 01:02:57,120 --> 01:03:01,780 And so if that author hat is on that's, that's how they're gonna talk. But I, 1125 01:03:01,800 --> 01:03:05,180 you know, to, to be honest, I'm not a virtual Coplay kind of person. 1126 01:03:05,490 --> 01:03:08,860 I've never really been into that sort of thing with forums, 1127 01:03:08,880 --> 01:03:13,700 but I appreciate that that is here because that does take the focus off of the 1128 01:03:13,700 --> 01:03:15,180 other kind of personas that people put. 1129 01:03:15,180 --> 01:03:19,140 On. You know what though, in honor, of the Hoit book quest, 1130 01:03:19,440 --> 01:03:21,100 we have coming up in September, 1131 01:03:21,700 --> 01:03:25,460 I did change my username because discord does allow this for a particular, uh, 1132 01:03:25,460 --> 01:03:29,260 server. I did change my username to Stephen of RDE. , uh, 1133 01:03:29,480 --> 01:03:32,380 not very creative, you know, not very Elvin sounding, 1134 01:03:32,380 --> 01:03:34,540 but I still want people to know that it's me, you know, 1135 01:03:34,540 --> 01:03:37,140 I don't wanna get too far with the whole username approach, 1136 01:03:37,560 --> 01:03:41,140 but there is something to be said, uh, that least changing your name, you know, 1137 01:03:41,140 --> 01:03:43,060 just a little bit. And we've done that a few times. Like, I, 1138 01:03:43,100 --> 01:03:46,900 I think I changed my name to kind of a, a robot looking name, uh, 1139 01:03:46,900 --> 01:03:50,460 when we did the, the book quest through, uh, Carrie needs' lost bits, uh, 1140 01:03:50,580 --> 01:03:53,780 I think that's just a way to respect and enjoy, uh, 1141 01:03:53,780 --> 01:03:57,740 the aesthetic of the book that we're exploring every month. So this time, 1142 01:03:58,200 --> 01:04:02,460 you know, especially if, uh, Elijah, David is leading the book quest, I mean, I, 1143 01:04:02,500 --> 01:04:04,140 I intend on helping out where I can, 1144 01:04:04,920 --> 01:04:09,140 but if I get to attend as just a party guest, uh, rather than a party leader, 1145 01:04:09,690 --> 01:04:12,540 then I might, uh, pick one of my favorite, uh, 1146 01:04:12,630 --> 01:04:16,260 races of middle earth and try to hu to that personality. We'll, 1147 01:04:16,260 --> 01:04:17,820 we'll see if I'm able to follow through with that. 1148 01:04:17,960 --> 01:04:19,500 I'm hoping September isn't too busy, 1149 01:04:20,000 --> 01:04:23,780 but I am already reading or listening to the Hoit and I'm planning to 1150 01:04:23,780 --> 01:04:26,820 participate because it's one of my favorite books. So, you know, 1151 01:04:26,890 --> 01:04:31,380 this actually has inspired me. Maybe I need to give a, a code of honor rule six, 1152 01:04:31,440 --> 01:04:35,940 uh, a try here and see if anybody naturally wants to pick up on that. Uh, 1153 01:04:35,940 --> 01:04:39,460 especially because the Hoit is so famous, uh, and the different groups, uh, 1154 01:04:39,560 --> 01:04:43,980 dwarfs elves trolls, well, we don't want trolls. We certainly do not want, uh, 1155 01:04:43,980 --> 01:04:46,380 those beasts from the mountains who are going to speak, 1156 01:04:46,840 --> 01:04:51,420 not at all in drawing room language, even if they only have one head each, uh, 1157 01:04:51,420 --> 01:04:52,660 we don't want that in the form. 1158 01:04:52,660 --> 01:04:57,020 So no trolls only pretend to be a wizard or an L or a dwarf for a Hoit I think 1159 01:04:57,020 --> 01:05:00,100 the, or, or a man for that matter or woman. Uh, those are the, uh, 1160 01:05:00,300 --> 01:05:03,620 I guess the only five approved, uh, good guy, uh, races there, uh, 1161 01:05:03,620 --> 01:05:05,860 not including all the divine creatures in middle earth, 1162 01:05:05,920 --> 01:05:08,980 as you learned about the simil and the supporting materials. 1163 01:05:09,000 --> 01:05:10,300 So let let's see how that works. 1164 01:05:11,190 --> 01:05:14,200 Okay. You've inspired me. I'll think of a new username, uh, 1165 01:05:14,200 --> 01:05:15,240 for this month for the Hoit. 1166 01:05:15,550 --> 01:05:19,280 Okay. Well, there we go. Again, it's a suggestion, it's a, it's a, not a rule, 1167 01:05:19,510 --> 01:05:21,360 more like guidelines, you know, 1168 01:05:21,580 --> 01:05:25,040 any kind of mix and match here in the code of honor. Uh, this is simply a way, 1169 01:05:25,040 --> 01:05:25,760 like you said, Zack, 1170 01:05:25,760 --> 01:05:29,600 to redirect some of those creative energies to a more fan centric, uh, 1171 01:05:29,600 --> 01:05:32,640 perspective. Yeah. All right. We've arrived now at, uh, 1172 01:05:32,640 --> 01:05:34,080 code of honor number seven here. 1173 01:05:34,110 --> 01:05:37,600 This one's pretty simple and it is more of a catchall and it's very Guild 1174 01:05:38,000 --> 01:05:41,040 specific. So it may not relate as much to anyone outside the Guild. 1175 01:05:41,040 --> 01:05:43,560 We just say seven, keep to the quest road. 1176 01:05:43,940 --> 01:05:47,880 If our quest conversations diverge too far from the Quest's main journey, 1177 01:05:48,380 --> 01:05:51,080 pursue those smaller trails elsewhere. For example, 1178 01:05:51,080 --> 01:05:54,000 if we end up discussing books different from the selection, 1179 01:05:54,390 --> 01:05:58,440 move that conversation to another place or request a future side quest to focus 1180 01:05:58,540 --> 01:06:03,400 on that other book, uh, that just helps I think, keep the discussions focused, 1181 01:06:03,700 --> 01:06:07,520 uh, especially if you have, uh, particular channels, uh, that, uh, 1182 01:06:07,520 --> 01:06:11,280 have a more broad label there. You may get some spinoff topics. Like, 1183 01:06:11,280 --> 01:06:14,520 for example, let's say people start talking about the Lord of the rings, uh, 1184 01:06:14,520 --> 01:06:17,640 in the Hobbit. Well, then we already have a middle earth channel. 1185 01:06:17,740 --> 01:06:21,440 You can take that too, so that we can focus on the chapter at hand. 1186 01:06:21,700 --> 01:06:23,960 And that's how we do the book quest, by the way, we, 1187 01:06:24,020 --> 01:06:28,280 we have a single channel or a single room, uh, in the, uh, 1188 01:06:28,300 --> 01:06:29,440 the Guild hall, uh, 1189 01:06:29,440 --> 01:06:34,400 to explore that book and then about every weekday or so, uh, someone may post, 1190 01:06:34,500 --> 01:06:38,640 uh, a few questions or even one question, uh, relating to a chapter. 1191 01:06:38,740 --> 01:06:42,880 So we go chapter by chapter. Hopefully people can keep pace that way, uh, 1192 01:06:42,880 --> 01:06:47,000 walk at their own speed on the book quest. And that's how we try to keep, uh, 1193 01:06:47,000 --> 01:06:50,080 the discussions focused and so far. Well, again, Lord willing, 1194 01:06:50,100 --> 01:06:52,760 we keep saying that, but so far it's working pretty well. 1195 01:06:53,040 --> 01:06:56,480 I think folks seem to pick up on that, uh, and then understand, Hey, 1196 01:06:56,490 --> 01:06:58,840 we've got enough space to talk about other, other things. 1197 01:06:58,940 --> 01:07:01,800 If you wanna talk about another Tokin book, we've got a middle earth thread, 1198 01:07:02,180 --> 01:07:05,800 or if you wanna talk about wheel of time and whether or not that's inspired by 1199 01:07:05,800 --> 01:07:07,160 Tokin or something, then go to the, 1200 01:07:07,160 --> 01:07:10,160 your favorite books channel or whatever we're calling it. Uh, 1201 01:07:10,160 --> 01:07:12,520 we've got enough space for all of those subtopics, 1202 01:07:12,520 --> 01:07:15,120 and that's just a matter of keeping things sorted, 1203 01:07:15,220 --> 01:07:19,320 trying to keep things in the proper place and, uh, make sure to avoid, uh, 1204 01:07:19,320 --> 01:07:20,280 too many rabbit trails. 1205 01:07:20,630 --> 01:07:25,560 Yeah. And this goes back to our main point and main purpose for Laura Haven 1206 01:07:25,700 --> 01:07:30,080 itself, which is to promote Christian fantastical fiction. Uh, 1207 01:07:30,100 --> 01:07:34,360 we are not simply the Christian discord server for talking all things, 1208 01:07:34,360 --> 01:07:36,600 science fiction and fantasy, everything out there. 1209 01:07:37,220 --> 01:07:41,680 We are primarily for Christian novels. And so, um, 1210 01:07:41,900 --> 01:07:46,000 that's always going to be the main quest and that's going to be the main topics 1211 01:07:46,000 --> 01:07:50,560 of discussion. Um, it's not to dissuade the other things entirely, 1212 01:07:50,560 --> 01:07:54,120 but just to kind of, it's a matter of emphasis or proportionality. 1213 01:07:57,710 --> 01:08:01,720 With that. I think we may be near the end of this journey, but I'm very curious, 1214 01:08:02,240 --> 01:08:05,800 faithful listener. Uh, what codes of honor have you followed? 1215 01:08:05,860 --> 01:08:09,760 Are they written or unwritten? Uh, because, uh, even before we started, uh, 1216 01:08:09,760 --> 01:08:14,040 Zach was making the point that no matter where you go with a creative group or a 1217 01:08:14,040 --> 01:08:17,720 local church or any community of any kind, there's gonna be a code of honor, 1218 01:08:17,720 --> 01:08:21,200 whether or not it's written, uh, seems to me that at least, uh, 1219 01:08:21,200 --> 01:08:25,000 before you join for a new group, there's an advantage to having a written code. 1220 01:08:25,000 --> 01:08:28,240 There may be flaws in it. Uh, there may be some things, uh, 1221 01:08:28,320 --> 01:08:32,640 oversaid or left unsaid, but Hey, at least the organizers are trying. 1222 01:08:33,140 --> 01:08:34,840 And in my experience, it is, uh, 1223 01:08:34,960 --> 01:08:39,480 a lot more effective to lay that out before you even start the group, uh, 1224 01:08:39,480 --> 01:08:43,200 rather than to try to backfill a code of honor or change one from underneath 1225 01:08:43,200 --> 01:08:46,960 people, uh, that can get pretty controversial. So, Hey, by the way, 1226 01:08:46,960 --> 01:08:48,840 just pray for the Lord Haven Guild. Uh, 1227 01:08:48,840 --> 01:08:52,680 we definitely want this to be a community that exalts Christ, uh, 1228 01:08:52,680 --> 01:08:55,120 through the exploration of these stories, uh, 1229 01:08:55,120 --> 01:08:58,800 these fantastical novels by Christian authors, uh, 1230 01:08:58,940 --> 01:09:02,400 no matter how long it goes, uh, we want that to be its purpose. 1231 01:09:02,580 --> 01:09:05,880 So just pray for the heroes, whether or not you're one of 'em and, uh, 1232 01:09:05,880 --> 01:09:08,480 join us for the Hobbit, uh, consider joining us, uh, 1233 01:09:08,480 --> 01:09:10,400 simply by subscribing@laurahaven.com. 1234 01:09:10,420 --> 01:09:13,040 We will email you that exclusive invitation, 1235 01:09:13,540 --> 01:09:18,280 and then you two can go on, on adventure into the wild. Uh, 1236 01:09:18,280 --> 01:09:22,120 from there, Zach, let's go to our com station and we got a lot of feedback, uh, 1237 01:09:22,330 --> 01:09:26,880 after our last episode with Kevin McCreary, the one about the Christian cringe, 1238 01:09:27,380 --> 01:09:30,680 uh, given our length here, I think we have time for only one or two feedbacks, 1239 01:09:30,680 --> 01:09:33,800 but what do we have over here in this, uh, bleeping blooping control panel? 1240 01:09:34,300 --> 01:09:37,680 So Nicholas Teman commented on this episode, 1241 01:09:37,820 --> 01:09:41,480 on our Facebook discussion about it and said, fun fact, 1242 01:09:41,980 --> 01:09:46,960 all high budget Christian cringe is made by a single individual cringe lore who 1243 01:09:46,960 --> 01:09:50,400 gained the power to transcend time and decency after being bitten by a 1244 01:09:50,400 --> 01:09:51,560 radioactive youth, pastor. 1245 01:09:52,670 --> 01:09:55,680 Hank cannon accepted cannon accepted. Yeah, 1246 01:09:55,760 --> 01:09:59,000 most of the feedback for this one was, uh, was, was really positive. 1247 01:09:59,280 --> 01:10:02,480 A lot of people understood what we meant by Christian cringe, 1248 01:10:02,480 --> 01:10:07,000 even if they maybe disagreed with any particular examples, uh, speaking of, uh, 1249 01:10:07,000 --> 01:10:09,600 UN unapplied to feedback, uh, there's at least, uh, 1250 01:10:09,620 --> 01:10:12,320 one faithful listener who had, uh, responded, uh, 1251 01:10:12,540 --> 01:10:15,520 at least took issue with one example of Christian cringe that I had. 1252 01:10:15,700 --> 01:10:18,880 It was more a matter of a prayer practice in a, in a Christian movie. 1253 01:10:19,080 --> 01:10:21,440 I still need to reply about that one, but I, 1254 01:10:21,480 --> 01:10:24,800 I think basically my reply will point to our concession stand, where we said, 1255 01:10:24,800 --> 01:10:25,280 Hey, you know, 1256 01:10:25,280 --> 01:10:29,480 you may disagree with the specific examples of cringe that we identify. 1257 01:10:30,300 --> 01:10:33,000 And in that case, well, you know, the cringe, 1258 01:10:33,000 --> 01:10:36,440 what we think is cringe may help you, or it may remind you of somebody, 1259 01:10:36,560 --> 01:10:38,160 you know, in real life, who's not cringe. 1260 01:10:38,160 --> 01:10:41,400 Like we don't mean to pick on that person or their beliefs. Uh, 1261 01:10:41,400 --> 01:10:44,560 so long as they're within, uh, biblical orthodoxy, uh, 1262 01:10:44,590 --> 01:10:48,960 it's simply a matter of being open to recognizing you may find that cringe 1263 01:10:48,960 --> 01:10:51,080 later, uh, or if for that matter, 1264 01:10:51,140 --> 01:10:54,720 you may think it's cringe now and not find it cringe later, you know, who knows, 1265 01:10:54,820 --> 01:10:56,080 uh, but either way, uh, 1266 01:10:56,130 --> 01:11:00,600 there is a difference between a creative product that some people think has some 1267 01:11:00,600 --> 01:11:05,080 cringe elements and real life, uh, real people behave in very cringe ways. 1268 01:11:05,140 --> 01:11:08,080 We are called to love them. And that goes back to our point here, Zach, 1269 01:11:08,080 --> 01:11:11,120 about respect and avoiding harassment and such like, you know, 1270 01:11:11,500 --> 01:11:15,680 you need to love the cringe maker or the cringe believer. Uh, 1271 01:11:15,710 --> 01:11:18,800 even if you do not particularly love the cringe. 1272 01:11:19,150 --> 01:11:23,040 Yeah. I, I think the solution, like so many things is grace and truth. 1273 01:11:23,780 --> 01:11:27,320 We have to be truthful about when our own art, you know, 1274 01:11:27,320 --> 01:11:31,840 especially within the church when, when we fall short of some and yes, 1275 01:11:31,870 --> 01:11:34,040 objective standards that as we talked about, 1276 01:11:34,160 --> 01:11:37,360 I do think there are objective standards of beauty. And I, 1277 01:11:37,480 --> 01:11:41,560 I think it's actually pretty easy to convince Christians of this because, uh, 1278 01:11:41,560 --> 01:11:45,680 the idea that art is totally subjective and just like morality and everything 1279 01:11:45,680 --> 01:11:49,200 else that that's a very postmodern new belief. I, 1280 01:11:49,280 --> 01:11:53,360 I think that good art is like all, all the beauty that we enjoy in nature. 1281 01:11:53,390 --> 01:11:56,600 It's like, you don't have to be convinced that it's beautiful. If, 1282 01:11:56,620 --> 01:12:00,360 if you're trying too hard to convince yourself a story is really good, 1283 01:12:00,430 --> 01:12:04,030 then maybe that's a sign. It's not, so we have to be truthful, 1284 01:12:04,030 --> 01:12:08,510 but then we have to be gracious, uh, because people enjoy different things and, 1285 01:12:08,510 --> 01:12:10,550 you know, everyone has their own comfort food, 1286 01:12:10,900 --> 01:12:15,630 whether that's actual food or or story based food, 1287 01:12:16,410 --> 01:12:18,790 you know, I, I could think of a friend I work with, uh, 1288 01:12:19,410 --> 01:12:23,590 he really liked that movie, the Meg that's about the Megalodon, you know, 1289 01:12:23,590 --> 01:12:27,350 it's sort of like a retelling of jaws, I guess. I'm not exactly sure. Or, 1290 01:12:27,450 --> 01:12:31,410 or deep blue sea it's about a giant shark that eats people. You know, 1291 01:12:31,600 --> 01:12:36,490 it's not a super intellectual film. , it's not very deep thematically. 1292 01:12:36,710 --> 01:12:41,020 Uh, there's no great purpose or importance to it. And so, 1293 01:12:41,520 --> 01:12:45,060 uh, some of our mutual friends were making fun of him for watching this. 1294 01:12:45,060 --> 01:12:48,460 And he's like, uh, look, I, there's plenty of movies. 1295 01:12:48,500 --> 01:12:52,500 I watch just to chill out and relax and kind of unplugged from all the cares to 1296 01:12:52,500 --> 01:12:52,760 the world. 1297 01:12:52,760 --> 01:12:57,020 And this is one of them and I'm gonna keep watching it and enjoying it for that 1298 01:12:57,020 --> 01:13:00,670 reason. And I'm like, you know what? I can respect that that's, uh, 1299 01:13:00,670 --> 01:13:04,390 shark movies are not my fandom, but if that's your fandom that I get it, 1300 01:13:04,620 --> 01:13:08,070 there's always gonna be things that other people like that, 1301 01:13:08,140 --> 01:13:10,590 that cause us to cringe, or even that we used to like, 1302 01:13:10,650 --> 01:13:13,390 and that we kind of cringe at now. But like we said, there's, 1303 01:13:13,390 --> 01:13:18,070 there's always things that we make that are cringy and look, uh, 1304 01:13:18,070 --> 01:13:21,150 we have to laugh at ourselves first and then, um, 1305 01:13:21,530 --> 01:13:24,430 but let's be gracious to others, uh, while telling the truth. 1306 01:13:24,980 --> 01:13:26,750 Amen to that. And a good code of honor, 1307 01:13:26,750 --> 01:13:29,950 whether internal or written down can help us deal, uh, 1308 01:13:29,950 --> 01:13:32,830 with those disputes over whether or not the thing is cringe. Like for example, 1309 01:13:33,550 --> 01:13:37,750 I will own the fact that I do not hate the Hobbit movies. Uh, I don't, uh, 1310 01:13:37,750 --> 01:13:40,870 the first one is especially good. The second one gets, uh, 1311 01:13:40,870 --> 01:13:42,630 a little bit more cringy at certain moments. 1312 01:13:42,680 --> 01:13:46,350 There are some absolute over the top cringe moments there that make, uh, 1313 01:13:46,350 --> 01:13:48,670 the cringing Christian movie look like high art. 1314 01:13:49,010 --> 01:13:52,270 And then the third one is just kind of mixed, but I do not hate them. 1315 01:13:52,410 --> 01:13:55,630 And I will own that. And I know that some people will look at me and go, well, 1316 01:13:55,630 --> 01:13:57,630 you like the cringe stuff. And in that case, well, 1317 01:13:57,630 --> 01:14:00,510 then I think that person needs a code of honor to show respect to me and not 1318 01:14:00,510 --> 01:14:03,950 harass me about that. But then I need a code of honor to show respect to you, 1319 01:14:04,460 --> 01:14:06,630 even if I think that what you enjoy is cringe, 1320 01:14:06,930 --> 01:14:10,430 how have you handled those situations with, or without a written code of honor, 1321 01:14:10,560 --> 01:14:15,120 email us podcast, Laura haven.com. Use the comment section on the website, 1322 01:14:15,120 --> 01:14:19,600 Laura haven.com/podcast. Or of course you can tag us on the socials, 1323 01:14:19,940 --> 01:14:24,080 let us know what you think. Uh, let us know how codes of honor have helped you, 1324 01:14:24,080 --> 01:14:27,480 whether it's ours or someone else's. Meanwhile, at Laura Haven, 1325 01:14:27,620 --> 01:14:30,480 as we have mentioned Monday, September the, 1326 01:14:30,820 --> 01:14:32,720 we are going there and back again, 1327 01:14:32,720 --> 01:14:36,720 starting our expected journey into Jr R Tolkin classic fantasy. 1328 01:14:37,060 --> 01:14:41,720 The Hobbit join us in the Laura Haven Guild by subscribing free@laurahaven.com. 1329 01:14:41,720 --> 01:14:44,560 We'll email you that invitation. Last week, 1330 01:14:44,620 --> 01:14:49,080 we had Marion Jacobs's new article@laurahaven.com. Uh, that was about how, 1331 01:14:49,100 --> 01:14:54,040 in her words, she masked her mental health with costume design, uh, 1332 01:14:54,040 --> 01:14:57,600 and then found some, uh, better, healthier reasons to work on costumes. 1333 01:14:57,600 --> 01:15:01,480 Some really good ones, including the award winner at the realm awards, uh, 1334 01:15:01,540 --> 01:15:06,080 in July, 2022, uh, she had a fabulous representation of the lion, 1335 01:15:06,100 --> 01:15:10,280 the witch and wardrobe that is the entire book. Uh, she got, uh, 1336 01:15:10,280 --> 01:15:14,760 drumming on the tables for that, uh, even, uh, it beat out some, uh, very, 1337 01:15:14,870 --> 01:15:18,080 very excellent cosplay there, uh, expressions of, uh, 1338 01:15:18,080 --> 01:15:21,080 Christian creativity there also@lordhaven.com. 1339 01:15:21,180 --> 01:15:24,920 We also published our book review of a book called immortal guardian. Uh, 1340 01:15:24,920 --> 01:15:29,320 it looked to me Zach, based on the description like, uh, Jason born meets, uh, 1341 01:15:29,410 --> 01:15:30,800 paranormal, uh, 1342 01:15:31,200 --> 01:15:34,160 spiritual warfare stuff going on really interesting premise there, 1343 01:15:34,180 --> 01:15:37,080 go check that out, all links to the show notes, by the way. Uh, 1344 01:15:37,080 --> 01:15:41,160 we also last week shared our article three Christian fantastical stories to help 1345 01:15:41,160 --> 01:15:44,440 your kids head back to school. Uh, that's applicable to you, 1346 01:15:44,440 --> 01:15:47,840 especially if you have kids ages eight through 12 and you wanna find them some 1347 01:15:47,840 --> 01:15:50,840 great, uh, fantastical reading material that's, uh, 1348 01:15:50,840 --> 01:15:54,920 age appropriate and from Christian creators, uh, next up, uh, 1349 01:15:54,920 --> 01:15:58,600 of course we're doing the Hoit book quest, uh, next week, but this week, uh, 1350 01:15:58,660 --> 01:16:00,800 not sure what else we have planned other than this podcast, 1351 01:16:01,340 --> 01:16:06,120 but we are doing an advance review on Friday of a book called the change. Uh, 1352 01:16:06,120 --> 01:16:10,000 that is book three of a series called the chase runner series, uh, 1353 01:16:10,000 --> 01:16:13,680 from mountain Brook fire, uh, by Bradley Kathy. Uh, 1354 01:16:13,680 --> 01:16:18,510 we're gonna have that review posted on Friday next on fantastical 1355 01:16:18,520 --> 01:16:22,550 truth. The saga begins Lord willing, not long ago. 1356 01:16:22,570 --> 01:16:26,390 We talked about church libraries and how these resources can help Christians 1357 01:16:26,420 --> 01:16:30,310 find the best books, including if not now, then in the future, 1358 01:16:30,580 --> 01:16:35,390 Christian made fantastical fiction, but what about public libraries? 1359 01:16:35,810 --> 01:16:40,710 How can Christians best discern and enjoy this resource? Well, 1360 01:16:40,710 --> 01:16:44,430 we're gonna speak with a public library director who also happens to be a 1361 01:16:44,430 --> 01:16:48,750 prolific Christian novelist of science fiction, fantasy steampunk, 1362 01:16:48,750 --> 01:16:49,910 paranormal suspense, 1363 01:16:49,910 --> 01:16:54,870 and beyond Steve Raza will be the first guest of our new saga 1364 01:16:54,870 --> 01:16:58,990 of episodes that we're assembling for this September on fantastical truth. 1365 01:17:00,150 --> 01:17:03,640 Meanwhile, practice a code of honor, not just one. 1366 01:17:03,660 --> 01:17:08,120 You make up according to other people's expectations of respect and things like 1367 01:17:08,120 --> 01:17:08,820 that. 1368 01:17:08,820 --> 01:17:13,600 But practice a code of honor that is derived from scripture as best you 1369 01:17:13,700 --> 01:17:18,280 can make it get help from the people around you get help from mature adults who 1370 01:17:18,280 --> 01:17:20,840 have demonstrated honorable and Christlike conduct. 1371 01:17:21,560 --> 01:17:23,400 I think that's the only way we can handle, uh, 1372 01:17:23,400 --> 01:17:27,520 some of these disputes that we have in Christian groups or creative groups. 1373 01:17:27,900 --> 01:17:31,960 That's the only way we can find unity, not just in behavior codes, 1374 01:17:31,960 --> 01:17:36,120 but in Christ is we continue to seek and find his fantastical truth.