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Then the Lord said to Joshua,

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stretch out the javelin that is in your

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hand toward Ai,

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for I will give it into your hand.

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And there you have it straight from scripture,

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God opposes

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artificial intelligence.

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But when many people see advantages to these

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generative tools,

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how can we celebrate the virtue of stories

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made by humans?

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Lorehaven has one way, a hashtag campaign along

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with buttons and book stickers

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just launched at Realm Makers called hashtag made

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by humans.

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You will get to hear about that and

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the entire Realm Makers 2024 conference in today's

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episode.

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Speculative fiction, like no other genre, reflects the

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creativity of God.

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If you look at the scriptures, you're gonna

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have to see that God uses imagination

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more

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than rational discourse.

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We are supposed to be image bearers for

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a vastly creative God.

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Reading fantastical fiction opened a portal

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in my imagination

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for a place other than just a materialistic

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world.

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I experienced the gospel story with the mind

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of someone who loved adventure and loved the

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idea of light conquering

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darkness. We're

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wired for stories that reflect how we see

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the world in ways that are true.

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The story is either pointing to Christ or

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it's pointing to our need for Christ.

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Welcome back to fantastical

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truth, the podcast from lordayman.com

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in which we explore

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fantastical stories for God's glory. I'm me, Steven

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Burnett, the publisher of Lorehaven, coming to you

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live from day 1 of Realm Makers 2020

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4 on July 18th.

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I'm also, by the way, the author of

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a new science fiction novel releasing early next

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year from Enclave Publishing and its title is

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Above the Circle of Earth.

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And I'm Zachary Russell. And unless you are

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listening to this podcast from a Borg cube

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or from a jar factory in the future

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of the brave new world future, I hope

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you're not listening from there. You were made

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by humans, and so this is episode

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223,

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why celebrate stories

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made by humans?

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And the Realm Makers Conference is also made

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by humans. So many humans, Zack, they are

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trickling in. They are about to pack out

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this exhibit hall for this, farewell stop. I

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suppose it needs to be because Realmmakers has

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been here in the Sheraton Westport Chalet Hotel

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in Saint Louis for 5 years off and

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on going back to 2018,

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I think it was. We did a stop

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in New Jersey, I think, and then we

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also had the virtual conference for the lockdowns.

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But if you have not been to Realmmakers

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before, you're gonna miss your chance at being

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here in this formerly home hotel for the

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conference

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because, I have it on good authority that

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next year the conference is getting even bigger,

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but it's already pretty big right now.

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So many authors, so many creators, publishers,

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everybody who's anybody who's making more Christian made

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fantastical fiction

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made by humans,

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by the way. Because

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bots do bots things, and humans do human

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things. We're gonna talk more about that, as

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we move forward.

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Yeah. Steven, this is my 5th time to

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be here since that 2018 conference. That was

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my first time.

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It's just amazing to think about how much

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it's grown, how much it's changed,

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how much the entire world has changed since

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then. You know, just today,

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OpenAI

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made an announcement

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about,

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gpt4oMini,

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Advancing cost efficient

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intelligence.

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So so much packed into that. This is

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a big announcement. I don't exactly know what

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it means because I'm not an AI researcher

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guy. I just like to play around with

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the thing because it amuses me.

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But it's just amazing to have this

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AI world thrust upon us.

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Now, the the and this is our 1st

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writer's conference, really, since this is all I

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mean, this has all happened since the last

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Realm Makers. It's kind of incredible to think

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about. I mean, there there's been AI kinds

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of things for a while, but I I

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feel like we are really living in the

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era of AI. Now whether that means it's

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actual intelligence, it's an actual

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entity with a consciousness, well, I think that

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remains to be seen.

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But we are, you know, having to grapple

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with this now. So I I really like

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that this year, for this podcast, at at

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this conference, we are going to talk quite

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a bit about this. About what is the

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intersection of technology,

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AI, other digital tools, worlds with the fantastical

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worlds that we create.

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Zack, do you know what else is made

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by humans? It is everything at Lore Haven.

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We use tools, of course, but nothing generative.

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All of our reviews are made by humans,

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occasional articles.

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These weekly podcasts, it is so important to

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us from a theological

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perspective

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and a biblical

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anthropological

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perspective,

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a scriptural view of human beings and their

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purpose in God's universe, that we make these

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things by ourselves without generative help, and you

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can subscribe free at lordayman.com.

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Choose the updates you're going to get, whether

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it's monthly or every week or so when

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we have the reviews and podcasts out. By

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the way, we did suspend reviews in order

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to prepare for realm makers, but they are

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going to start up again

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this week as we release this episode. So

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subscribe free lorehaven.com.

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You can also get that secret access code

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00:05:30,220 --> 00:05:31,680
to join our lore haven

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00:05:32,060 --> 00:05:34,300
guild. More on that later on in this

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episode.

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By the way, our next book quest in

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the Lore Haven Guild is for the Nightmare

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Virus by Nadine Brandes and our top sponsor

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today from Enclave Publishing.

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Some viruses go after the body, but the

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nightmare virus goes after the mind.

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When dream technology goes wrong, a virus spreads

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across the globe, trapping people in a universal

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dreamscape.

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They call it the nightmare virus.

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King Cross is determined to find a cure

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if he can decipher his brother's chicken scratch

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formula notes.

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But when he gets infected, he has only

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22 days until he's trapped in the mental

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prison forever.

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Now every time he falls asleep, he must

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fight in a nightmare arena until he earns

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his freedom to live in the new world

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that exists only in the mind. Then he

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finds a way to manipulate the nightmare to

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change it by mere thought.

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Forced to navigate a world of night beasts,

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mistblades, and half truths,

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Kane turns his focus to survival.

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Will he continue searching for a cure, or

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will he swear allegiance to the nightmare?

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And the bigger question might be, will he

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even have a choice?

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Enclave Escape presents The Nightmare Virus by award

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winning author Nadine Brandes, available now wherever fantastic

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books are sold. You can order online or

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ask for it at your favorite bookseller or

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your local library.

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By the way, enclave Publishing is a division

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of Oasis Family Media, which also makes audiobook

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versions of all of those titles. You can

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see more in the show notes for this

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episode, 223,

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or go to lorehaven.com/podcast.

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By the way, tonight, we're having a release

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party for the nightmare virus. I'm looking forward

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to that, and Zach and I will be

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back after the completion of Realm Makers day

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1

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going into tomorrow.

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We're here in day 2 of Realm Makers,

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July 19th, a Friday evening just before the

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beginning of the costume costume banquet to celebrate

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the realm awards.

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Zach, how is your 5th Realm Makers, conference

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experience been so far?

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Yeah. This has been a really fun one.

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I brought my middle daughter with me this

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year. So she's in the teen track with

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about 30 other teenagers

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in person and 8 more online. So that's

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been fun. I brought my oldest daughter here

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3 years ago.

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And,

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Realm Makers is a place of refuge is

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what I've realized.

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More than anything else, it's it's feels like

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home. A lot of people have said that.

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And it's always a place where you can

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learn more. And so we had a lot

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of great

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stuff we learned from Alan Arnold's keynote on

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Thursday night, the first night.

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So, I thought we could jump into talking

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about that.

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His overarching theme

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was

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living the real story

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that God has told not the artificial

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or the counterfeit story.

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So as we're talking about artificial intelligence, a

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lot in our culture,

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He says the deeper problem is the counterfeit

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story

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that we are often

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given by the enemy and that we repeat

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to ourselves and

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basically,

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the real story is God at the center.

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The counterfeit story is humanity at the center.

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And that's what Satan really ultimately tempts us

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with. It's putting ourselves on the throne.

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And that's what leads to everything else that

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goes wrong. I was just thinking of that

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famous tract with those famous little diagrams. Self

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is on the throne,

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interests are disordered. But when Christ is on

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the throne, all interests, including the human imagination

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and creativity, are rightly ordered. Zack, I'm really

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glad you got to that Alan Arnold keynote

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because I think I am o for 3,

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keynote speeches right now just because sometimes I

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forget. There is a writer's conference going on.

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I'm so busy at the Lord Haven booth.

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And Lacey and I, my wife have been

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running the quest system here and telling people

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all about, the good work of Lorehaven,

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that I'm not able to go to the

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classes. I'm gonna try to get 1, maybe

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2 tomorrow,

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Saturday, but that may be about it. And

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I almost wish that we'd, been able to

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coordinate with Alan Arnold or something and say,

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hey, we're doing this campaign called hashtag made

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by humans.

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It sounds like he's going more for the

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biblical foundation of imagination,

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talking more about the positive of human imagination

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rather than this arguably

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counterfeit

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imagination

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that we get with a lot of the

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generative AI that we're seeing. I can say

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too, that by this point, we've been giving

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away the little pins made by humans for

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00:10:03,600 --> 00:10:05,875
people to do our debut quests at the

273
00:10:05,875 --> 00:10:08,535
Lorehaven booth. I've not seen anyone say, yay,

274
00:10:08,675 --> 00:10:10,295
go go gadget AI.

275
00:10:10,754 --> 00:10:12,855
Most folks are fairly opposed,

276
00:10:13,235 --> 00:10:15,389
to the lot of it. And so they're

277
00:10:15,389 --> 00:10:16,990
super happy to get that pin. We had

278
00:10:16,990 --> 00:10:19,389
somebody last night on Thursday who said, rolled

279
00:10:19,389 --> 00:10:21,149
the she rolled the d twenty, and she

280
00:10:21,149 --> 00:10:22,830
got the number for the Made by Humans

281
00:10:22,830 --> 00:10:24,725
quest. And we just asked that discussion starter

282
00:10:24,725 --> 00:10:25,225
question,

283
00:10:25,845 --> 00:10:26,904
hey, what do you think

284
00:10:27,285 --> 00:10:28,985
about generative AI

285
00:10:29,365 --> 00:10:31,684
to make novels? And without missing a beat,

286
00:10:31,684 --> 00:10:33,559
she said, I hate it.

287
00:10:33,940 --> 00:10:35,459
So there is a hot take right there.

288
00:10:35,459 --> 00:10:37,059
And we're trying to be careful, because you

289
00:10:37,059 --> 00:10:38,339
brought up some of the nuance in a

290
00:10:38,339 --> 00:10:40,740
previous episode Yeah. About how AI goes into

291
00:10:40,740 --> 00:10:42,485
spell check. It may go into some of

292
00:10:42,485 --> 00:10:44,865
the, machinery and the software that we run.

293
00:10:44,924 --> 00:10:47,904
But I'm specifically singling in on generative AI

294
00:10:48,205 --> 00:10:50,284
to make the novels themselves. And that, I

295
00:10:50,284 --> 00:10:52,250
do think, is a counterfeit imagination.

296
00:10:52,710 --> 00:10:54,149
It may not have been what Alan Arnold

297
00:10:54,149 --> 00:10:55,909
was thinking of, but it is the first

298
00:10:55,909 --> 00:10:58,149
application that I make. He absolutely Oh, he

299
00:10:58,149 --> 00:10:59,990
did go there. Talked about that. Okay. Okay.

300
00:10:59,990 --> 00:11:00,490
So

301
00:11:00,894 --> 00:11:02,754
AI can only create

302
00:11:03,215 --> 00:11:05,235
according to the rules it's been given.

303
00:11:05,855 --> 00:11:06,595
And so

304
00:11:07,054 --> 00:11:09,475
AI has probably gobbled up every story

305
00:11:10,000 --> 00:11:12,080
writing book that there is. Every novel writing

306
00:11:12,080 --> 00:11:13,700
book, screenplay writing book,

307
00:11:14,240 --> 00:11:16,879
every short story, every anime writing book that

308
00:11:16,879 --> 00:11:17,455
there is.

309
00:11:17,855 --> 00:11:20,274
Okay. So it's good at analyzing stories,

310
00:11:20,735 --> 00:11:23,215
but it's only going to create something from

311
00:11:23,215 --> 00:11:24,195
that. Right?

312
00:11:24,949 --> 00:11:27,990
And so, Alan's point was, if all you're

313
00:11:27,990 --> 00:11:30,730
doing is creating stories that are formulaic.

314
00:11:31,725 --> 00:11:34,365
So just taking what's already been made and

315
00:11:34,365 --> 00:11:35,184
just regurgitating

316
00:11:35,565 --> 00:11:36,784
it. He said,

317
00:11:37,404 --> 00:11:39,325
AI is going to kick your butt every

318
00:11:39,325 --> 00:11:41,370
day of the week. Because AI is going

319
00:11:41,370 --> 00:11:42,950
to do that way better.

320
00:11:43,410 --> 00:11:46,230
But if you are creating stories with God

321
00:11:46,370 --> 00:11:47,429
and letting God

322
00:11:48,245 --> 00:11:50,264
take your story of your life

323
00:11:50,965 --> 00:11:53,764
and apply it to the story world that

324
00:11:53,764 --> 00:11:54,504
you're creating,

325
00:11:55,285 --> 00:11:57,065
AI can never replicate that.

326
00:11:57,830 --> 00:12:00,309
Because that's something unique to you and that's

327
00:12:00,309 --> 00:12:00,809
something

328
00:12:01,110 --> 00:12:02,649
that's unique to God's power.

329
00:12:03,029 --> 00:12:05,050
So I thought that was really cool that,

330
00:12:05,424 --> 00:12:07,664
okay. And as I've said before, yeah, there's

331
00:12:07,664 --> 00:12:09,424
some positive things you can do with AI.

332
00:12:09,424 --> 00:12:10,865
And I know you're not a fan, Steven.

333
00:12:10,865 --> 00:12:13,445
I like the AI voice audiobooks.

334
00:12:13,840 --> 00:12:15,519
I cannot get into it. I wish I

335
00:12:15,519 --> 00:12:18,019
could. Some people have been reading, for endorsement

336
00:12:18,399 --> 00:12:20,559
my novel using the AI voice. And I

337
00:12:20,639 --> 00:12:22,215
the last time I tried that, I was

338
00:12:22,215 --> 00:12:23,995
bursting out laughing out loud because

339
00:12:24,295 --> 00:12:26,375
all my dialogue, my character is so near

340
00:12:26,375 --> 00:12:28,054
and dear to my heart are sounding so

341
00:12:28,054 --> 00:12:28,554
ridiculous

342
00:12:29,040 --> 00:12:30,559
with the AI voice. But I'm glad it

343
00:12:30,559 --> 00:12:31,679
works for you, and I'm glad it works

344
00:12:31,679 --> 00:12:33,279
for others. Well, I think what I like

345
00:12:33,279 --> 00:12:35,779
about it is it's totally flat. It's emotionless,

346
00:12:36,575 --> 00:12:38,675
And so you hear every mistake

347
00:12:39,215 --> 00:12:41,855
and it just perfectly like it. It doesn't

348
00:12:41,855 --> 00:12:43,455
skip a beat. It just will read every

349
00:12:43,455 --> 00:12:46,110
typo and every grammar mistake back to you.

350
00:12:46,190 --> 00:12:47,389
And so in that way it can be

351
00:12:47,389 --> 00:12:48,209
very helpful.

352
00:12:48,829 --> 00:12:50,669
But I would not want to actually pay

353
00:12:50,669 --> 00:12:51,889
for an audio book

354
00:12:52,269 --> 00:12:54,355
that's voiced by AI. I do want an

355
00:12:54,355 --> 00:12:56,514
audio book that's voiced by human. Now here's

356
00:12:56,514 --> 00:12:58,455
here's the interesting thing though.

357
00:12:58,915 --> 00:13:00,675
As I said an AI voice is gonna

358
00:13:00,675 --> 00:13:01,335
be flawless.

359
00:13:01,795 --> 00:13:03,379
A human voice will not be.

360
00:13:04,100 --> 00:13:05,620
And so as we talk about made by

361
00:13:05,620 --> 00:13:07,940
humans as we talk about making things with

362
00:13:07,940 --> 00:13:08,440
God,

363
00:13:08,820 --> 00:13:10,759
it isn't going to be that perfect

364
00:13:11,834 --> 00:13:13,754
shiny thing that an AI can crank out.

365
00:13:13,754 --> 00:13:15,434
So that's to me the really interesting thing

366
00:13:15,434 --> 00:13:18,074
to think about. I've bought books off from

367
00:13:18,074 --> 00:13:19,914
here from realm makers that I found typos

368
00:13:19,914 --> 00:13:21,769
in. I'm like, I know these went through

369
00:13:21,769 --> 00:13:23,230
so many revision passes,

370
00:13:23,690 --> 00:13:24,990
but somehow there's a typo.

371
00:13:25,370 --> 00:13:27,129
I've listened to audio books where there's an

372
00:13:27,129 --> 00:13:28,970
awkward pause or where there's a little bit

373
00:13:28,970 --> 00:13:30,509
of a stumble over a word.

374
00:13:30,875 --> 00:13:32,475
But then I have to remind myself. Okay.

375
00:13:32,475 --> 00:13:34,095
That means it's made by human.

376
00:13:34,554 --> 00:13:36,634
Because a machine would not make that mistake.

377
00:13:36,634 --> 00:13:37,134
Right?

378
00:13:37,915 --> 00:13:39,855
But Alan says, you know,

379
00:13:40,470 --> 00:13:41,850
when you're thinking about AI

380
00:13:42,389 --> 00:13:44,789
stories, AI art, there's this quote he read

381
00:13:44,789 --> 00:13:47,350
by Sydney j Harris who said, the real

382
00:13:47,350 --> 00:13:49,764
danger is that men will begin to think

383
00:13:49,764 --> 00:13:50,664
like computers.

384
00:13:51,684 --> 00:13:52,745
And I I definitely,

385
00:13:53,524 --> 00:13:55,444
you know, can see that happen in culture

386
00:13:55,444 --> 00:13:58,264
when everything revolves around gaming the algorithm.

387
00:13:58,660 --> 00:14:01,620
Well, really, the algorithm is programming you. If

388
00:14:01,620 --> 00:14:03,460
that's all you're doing in life is trying

389
00:14:03,460 --> 00:14:03,960
to

390
00:14:04,340 --> 00:14:06,179
beat the algorithm, you're you're gonna get beat

391
00:14:06,179 --> 00:14:08,085
by it. But Alan made a really good

392
00:14:08,085 --> 00:14:10,485
point. He said, the actual or the bigger

393
00:14:10,485 --> 00:14:10,985
danger

394
00:14:11,445 --> 00:14:13,625
is becoming untethered from God.

395
00:14:14,340 --> 00:14:16,279
Really, what it can become is an idol.

396
00:14:16,660 --> 00:14:18,899
It it can become something that we try

397
00:14:18,899 --> 00:14:20,519
to create a life with

398
00:14:20,980 --> 00:14:23,620
that replaces the life God is making with

399
00:14:23,620 --> 00:14:24,004
us.

400
00:14:25,764 --> 00:14:28,725
And divorcing our art from our spiritual life

401
00:14:28,725 --> 00:14:31,125
with God. Yeah. We all use tools. We

402
00:14:31,125 --> 00:14:33,639
we use Microsoft Word. We use we use

403
00:14:33,639 --> 00:14:35,320
all kinds of Scrivener and all kinds of

404
00:14:35,320 --> 00:14:36,759
other tools to write. We use all kinds

405
00:14:36,759 --> 00:14:38,839
of tools to edit. But when you're actually

406
00:14:38,839 --> 00:14:39,820
creating the story,

407
00:14:40,200 --> 00:14:40,569
if it's coming from a machine, then it's

408
00:14:40,569 --> 00:14:42,514
just coming from machine, then it's just coming

409
00:14:42,514 --> 00:14:44,054
from what everyone else have written.

410
00:14:44,595 --> 00:14:46,274
And, you know, I think the best word

411
00:14:46,274 --> 00:14:48,754
people have used to describe AI stories is

412
00:14:48,754 --> 00:14:50,054
it's more like a forgery.

413
00:14:50,759 --> 00:14:52,919
It it's this mishmash of things that other

414
00:14:52,919 --> 00:14:55,399
people have made. But the bigger problem is,

415
00:14:55,399 --> 00:14:57,720
Alan said, is having a life that's a

416
00:14:57,720 --> 00:14:58,220
forgery.

417
00:14:58,759 --> 00:14:59,819
Having a life

418
00:15:00,345 --> 00:15:02,825
that is centered around humanity. As you said,

419
00:15:02,825 --> 00:15:05,384
humanity is on the throne. Person or self

420
00:15:05,384 --> 00:15:06,284
is on the throne.

421
00:15:06,745 --> 00:15:08,125
God is not on the throne.

422
00:15:08,470 --> 00:15:09,990
But when you go back to the life

423
00:15:09,990 --> 00:15:12,070
that God intended, where God is at the

424
00:15:12,070 --> 00:15:12,570
center,

425
00:15:13,509 --> 00:15:15,350
where we are not just creating stories, but

426
00:15:15,350 --> 00:15:18,065
creating a life that centers around God, That's

427
00:15:18,065 --> 00:15:19,585
when you're actually gonna make a good story.

428
00:15:19,585 --> 00:15:21,504
So it's really interesting. A lot of what

429
00:15:21,504 --> 00:15:23,345
Alan has talked about is really just pin

430
00:15:23,345 --> 00:15:24,485
the spiritual disciplines.

431
00:15:25,169 --> 00:15:27,570
And because he one of the things he

432
00:15:27,570 --> 00:15:30,610
said, in his continuing session was that an

433
00:15:30,610 --> 00:15:33,190
unexamined life leads to shallow stories.

434
00:15:33,924 --> 00:15:34,985
You can't have

435
00:15:35,605 --> 00:15:38,245
a shallow life and have deep stories. And

436
00:15:38,245 --> 00:15:40,024
you're only gonna have a deep life

437
00:15:41,259 --> 00:15:43,259
if you go deep with God. That's a

438
00:15:43,259 --> 00:15:45,820
fantastic point. That'll preach. This guy sounds like

439
00:15:45,820 --> 00:15:47,500
he knows his stuff. Got some wisdom in

440
00:15:47,500 --> 00:15:49,740
there. Lots of years with the industry as

441
00:15:49,740 --> 00:15:51,375
well as in his own spiritual disciplines. We

442
00:15:51,375 --> 00:15:53,115
should try to have him on the show

443
00:15:53,115 --> 00:15:55,134
sometime. On the practical level, I've talked to

444
00:15:55,134 --> 00:15:57,215
a few authors here. This has happened, just

445
00:15:57,215 --> 00:16:00,070
since the advent of good old Chatt g

446
00:16:00,070 --> 00:16:02,629
p t, everybody's favorite bogeyman that I still

447
00:16:02,629 --> 00:16:04,549
don't think I've used, by the way. There's

448
00:16:04,549 --> 00:16:05,910
a few authors here I've talked to. I

449
00:16:05,910 --> 00:16:07,294
saw one pass me by just a moment

450
00:16:07,294 --> 00:16:08,995
here at our makeshift studio.

451
00:16:09,455 --> 00:16:11,455
She was saying that her books were included

452
00:16:11,455 --> 00:16:13,215
in the AI scraping, and she only found

453
00:16:13,215 --> 00:16:13,955
out afterwards.

454
00:16:14,389 --> 00:16:16,970
So there out there is some techno zombie,

455
00:16:17,590 --> 00:16:18,649
shambling about,

456
00:16:19,190 --> 00:16:20,490
that now can repeat

457
00:16:20,950 --> 00:16:23,429
in the voice of this author or these

458
00:16:23,429 --> 00:16:24,794
authors, you know,

459
00:16:25,254 --> 00:16:27,735
as if some voice cloning by way of

460
00:16:27,735 --> 00:16:31,335
words, now repeating phrases and language and scraps

461
00:16:31,335 --> 00:16:33,514
of imagination that it's just reprocessed.

462
00:16:34,190 --> 00:16:35,790
And that to me, I mean, it brings

463
00:16:35,790 --> 00:16:37,269
to mind all the cyberpunk stuff that you

464
00:16:37,309 --> 00:16:39,149
Yeah. Probably know a lot more about. Like,

465
00:16:39,149 --> 00:16:40,690
that is just kind of gross,

466
00:16:41,149 --> 00:16:43,309
to think about some zombie that can just,

467
00:16:43,309 --> 00:16:45,375
you know, click click click its head to

468
00:16:45,375 --> 00:16:46,894
the side and then start talking to you

469
00:16:46,894 --> 00:16:48,695
in the voice of someone who's not there,

470
00:16:49,134 --> 00:16:50,355
that's rather terrifying.

471
00:16:51,090 --> 00:16:52,850
That is something I do think is is

472
00:16:52,850 --> 00:16:55,889
inhuman as opposed to human. I'm thinking of

473
00:16:55,889 --> 00:16:58,210
the quote now from Arthur Weasley from Harry

474
00:16:58,210 --> 00:16:59,674
Potter and the Chamber of Secrets

475
00:17:00,154 --> 00:17:02,634
where, Ginny Weasley gets hold of something like

476
00:17:02,634 --> 00:17:04,335
the fantasy world equivalent

477
00:17:04,954 --> 00:17:06,335
of a dead voice.

478
00:17:06,795 --> 00:17:09,390
Where there's like pieces of a villain's personality

479
00:17:09,450 --> 00:17:11,789
that have been enchanted into this object.

480
00:17:12,250 --> 00:17:14,170
And she is now followed after it and

481
00:17:14,170 --> 00:17:15,630
gotten hoodwinked by

482
00:17:17,434 --> 00:17:20,734
spiritual component there. And Arthur Weasley is incredulous

483
00:17:20,875 --> 00:17:22,095
and he says, Ginny,

484
00:17:22,554 --> 00:17:24,849
how many times have my mother and have

485
00:17:24,849 --> 00:17:26,849
your mother and I told you? Do not

486
00:17:26,849 --> 00:17:28,690
trust the thing if you can't see where

487
00:17:28,690 --> 00:17:29,990
it keeps its brain.

488
00:17:30,424 --> 00:17:31,085
I don't

489
00:17:31,544 --> 00:17:33,625
know where the AI brain is. It's scattered

490
00:17:33,625 --> 00:17:35,865
all around. It's drawing from the electrical grid.

491
00:17:36,025 --> 00:17:38,679
It might generate power outages someday. I can't

492
00:17:38,679 --> 00:17:41,500
see your kids' brain. There's no soul there.

493
00:17:41,559 --> 00:17:43,960
There's no spirit. And so that's why I'm

494
00:17:43,960 --> 00:17:47,025
strongly an advocate for stories made by humans.

495
00:17:47,025 --> 00:17:49,265
Hashtag made by humans Yeah. For the glory

496
00:17:49,265 --> 00:17:49,924
of God.

497
00:17:50,545 --> 00:17:52,705
Yeah. And and, you know, I look at

498
00:17:52,705 --> 00:17:54,805
AI as it's an opportunity

499
00:17:55,650 --> 00:17:58,049
for us to stand out by not using

500
00:17:58,049 --> 00:17:59,590
it. That sounds weird.

501
00:18:00,210 --> 00:18:03,009
But Alan was in his continuing session, was

502
00:18:03,009 --> 00:18:05,109
talking about a writer he talked to

503
00:18:05,474 --> 00:18:07,875
who there was some outage with ChatGPT. Because,

504
00:18:07,875 --> 00:18:10,275
of course, big tech is always having outages

505
00:18:10,275 --> 00:18:12,355
for some reason or another. And this writer

506
00:18:12,355 --> 00:18:13,970
says, I don't know what to do now.

507
00:18:14,769 --> 00:18:16,289
Oh, that's not a good place to be.

508
00:18:16,289 --> 00:18:17,730
And I was like, wait a minute. Chechi

509
00:18:17,730 --> 00:18:19,009
BD has been around like a year or

510
00:18:19,009 --> 00:18:21,089
2. Right? How did you write before that?

511
00:18:21,089 --> 00:18:23,029
Like, have you forgotten how to do that?

512
00:18:23,384 --> 00:18:25,705
And and he went into he had a

513
00:18:25,705 --> 00:18:28,125
great quote. He he started talking about how,

514
00:18:28,265 --> 00:18:30,424
you know, you kinda have to find analog

515
00:18:30,424 --> 00:18:31,404
ways to live

516
00:18:31,820 --> 00:18:34,400
to unplug from these artificial stories.

517
00:18:34,940 --> 00:18:37,099
And he said, for example, he doesn't use

518
00:18:37,099 --> 00:18:37,840
his phone

519
00:18:38,380 --> 00:18:40,654
as a alarm clock anymore. He got an

520
00:18:40,654 --> 00:18:43,055
actual alarm clock. And he says, I don't

521
00:18:43,055 --> 00:18:43,555
have

522
00:18:44,255 --> 00:18:44,914
a smartwatch

523
00:18:45,215 --> 00:18:46,275
to tell the time.

524
00:18:46,815 --> 00:18:48,734
I just have a dumb watch with hands

525
00:18:48,734 --> 00:18:50,490
that move. And he said, no one can

526
00:18:50,490 --> 00:18:52,890
call me on my watch. And I thought,

527
00:18:52,890 --> 00:18:54,730
when else in history would that have made

528
00:18:54,730 --> 00:18:56,890
sense to say, no one can give me

529
00:18:56,890 --> 00:18:57,869
a phone call

530
00:18:58,244 --> 00:18:59,065
on my watch.

531
00:18:59,765 --> 00:19:01,525
And, you know, this is something I did

532
00:19:01,525 --> 00:19:03,545
driving up here. I'd made sure to get

533
00:19:03,684 --> 00:19:05,839
a road atlas just in case our cell

534
00:19:05,839 --> 00:19:07,759
phones went down. We lost them. They broke.

535
00:19:07,759 --> 00:19:09,539
GPS didn't work. Cyber attack.

536
00:19:10,079 --> 00:19:11,440
You know, we have to have those analog

537
00:19:11,440 --> 00:19:11,940
backups.

538
00:19:12,319 --> 00:19:14,325
But again, going back to the fact that

539
00:19:14,884 --> 00:19:16,024
AI can only

540
00:19:16,325 --> 00:19:17,865
output what its input.

541
00:19:18,565 --> 00:19:19,865
AI cannot pray.

542
00:19:20,804 --> 00:19:23,500
Right? And so that is the advantage we

543
00:19:23,500 --> 00:19:26,059
have as human authors. We can pray to

544
00:19:26,059 --> 00:19:26,559
God,

545
00:19:26,940 --> 00:19:29,359
invite God into the stories that we're making.

546
00:19:29,784 --> 00:19:31,144
And that's gonna take it to a whole

547
00:19:31,144 --> 00:19:31,884
new level.

548
00:19:32,424 --> 00:19:34,204
Alan made a great point about how

549
00:19:35,065 --> 00:19:36,044
similar to this.

550
00:19:36,424 --> 00:19:37,865
He said a problem with a lot of

551
00:19:37,865 --> 00:19:40,549
fiction that's coming out from Disney, from Hollywood,

552
00:19:40,929 --> 00:19:42,470
from Netflix, from Amazon.

553
00:19:43,009 --> 00:19:45,490
It's going not only against according to these

554
00:19:45,490 --> 00:19:48,605
formulas, but it's totally ignoring the supernatural

555
00:19:49,464 --> 00:19:51,304
world. All it concerns itself with is the

556
00:19:51,304 --> 00:19:54,319
physical world and saying, this is real. Or

557
00:19:54,319 --> 00:19:57,220
all it concerns itself with is human depravity.

558
00:19:57,359 --> 00:19:58,419
Well, that's real.

559
00:19:58,799 --> 00:20:00,799
But there's a lack of hope because there's

560
00:20:00,799 --> 00:20:02,259
a lack of the supernatural.

561
00:20:02,884 --> 00:20:04,884
And I love how Alan said, that's actually

562
00:20:04,884 --> 00:20:06,664
not real. That's not realistic

563
00:20:07,365 --> 00:20:09,785
to to have a story without the supernatural.

564
00:20:10,390 --> 00:20:11,990
And he took it back to when CS

565
00:20:11,990 --> 00:20:14,410
Lewis wrote That Hideous Drink.

566
00:20:14,950 --> 00:20:16,549
And there was someone that reviewed it and

567
00:20:16,549 --> 00:20:18,934
said, well, this is an interesting thriller and

568
00:20:19,095 --> 00:20:21,174
you know, political intrigue, but the supernatural kept

569
00:20:21,174 --> 00:20:23,095
breaking in. And so the so the reviewer

570
00:20:23,095 --> 00:20:24,855
was with the n I c e. Yeah.

571
00:20:24,855 --> 00:20:27,309
Exactly. Literally missed the entire point of the

572
00:20:27,309 --> 00:20:29,789
exercise. He did not understand the assignment. Well,

573
00:20:29,789 --> 00:20:31,470
that's why we at Lorehaven try to find

574
00:20:31,470 --> 00:20:33,470
the best stories that are not only made

575
00:20:33,470 --> 00:20:36,075
intentionally for the glory of God, but also

576
00:20:36,075 --> 00:20:38,154
are made by humans, which, by the way,

577
00:20:38,154 --> 00:20:40,234
includes our 2nd sponsor, friend of the show,

578
00:20:40,234 --> 00:20:42,815
Jamie Foley, who's also here at the conference.

579
00:20:42,875 --> 00:20:45,375
I am sitting right across from her booth,

580
00:20:45,630 --> 00:20:47,569
and it is the Catrosy Revolution

581
00:20:47,869 --> 00:20:48,369
Series.

582
00:20:48,829 --> 00:20:51,390
Imagine being able to read Game of Thrones

583
00:20:51,390 --> 00:20:53,789
without the guilt, and not everyone has to

584
00:20:53,789 --> 00:20:56,914
die. In the epic fantasy quartet, the Catrosy

585
00:20:57,134 --> 00:20:57,634
Revolution,

586
00:20:58,174 --> 00:21:00,835
the elementals have decided they're gods,

587
00:21:01,134 --> 00:21:04,250
and humans are fuel for their fire. Now

588
00:21:04,250 --> 00:21:07,210
this latest novel from Jamie Foley, book 3,

589
00:21:07,210 --> 00:21:08,269
Lotus Fall,

590
00:21:08,650 --> 00:21:10,509
will release this summer.

591
00:21:11,134 --> 00:21:13,295
Thrones have been toppled and battle's won, but

592
00:21:13,295 --> 00:21:15,055
the war of the gods is only just

593
00:21:15,055 --> 00:21:15,555
beginning.

594
00:21:16,255 --> 00:21:18,409
The heir to the wolf tyrant is faced

595
00:21:18,409 --> 00:21:20,909
with a heritage of violence, Ru Selsake.

596
00:21:21,369 --> 00:21:23,630
He lives in defiance of his father's evil

597
00:21:23,769 --> 00:21:26,484
and his inherited attraction to elemental power.

598
00:21:27,204 --> 00:21:30,005
His adoptive father offers a better path. But

599
00:21:30,005 --> 00:21:31,684
with the blood of false gods burning through

600
00:21:31,684 --> 00:21:34,619
his veins, can Sausage harness enough power to

601
00:21:34,619 --> 00:21:37,599
protect imperial princess Vilya and simultaneously

602
00:21:37,980 --> 00:21:40,319
resist the temptation that corrupted his ancestors?

603
00:21:41,075 --> 00:21:42,775
Next is the jade witch.

604
00:21:43,154 --> 00:21:45,815
The Darkwoods seek justice for their fallen kin.

605
00:21:46,115 --> 00:21:48,195
Together at last, but on the run, Brook

606
00:21:48,195 --> 00:21:48,934
and Lissander

607
00:21:49,380 --> 00:21:52,440
flee Jadenvaiv in the midst of political turmoil.

608
00:21:52,980 --> 00:21:55,220
Determined to aid her people even while facing

609
00:21:55,220 --> 00:21:55,720
rejection,

610
00:21:56,180 --> 00:21:59,394
Brooke chooses to trust Felix's directive to locate

611
00:21:59,394 --> 00:22:02,695
Lillian's ancient vault and steal her most prized

612
00:22:02,755 --> 00:22:03,255
possession,

613
00:22:03,795 --> 00:22:06,134
the future seeing dream catcher.

614
00:22:06,549 --> 00:22:08,970
And, finally, there is the lady god slayer,

615
00:22:09,029 --> 00:22:11,509
Qi'ra, who found everything she never knew she

616
00:22:11,509 --> 00:22:12,009
wanted.

617
00:22:12,309 --> 00:22:14,934
Now, the choice remains. Hide with Rione and

618
00:22:14,934 --> 00:22:17,174
pray for the war to end favorably, or

619
00:22:17,174 --> 00:22:19,115
risk it all to do what is right.

620
00:22:19,654 --> 00:22:20,634
Visit emberhawk.com

621
00:22:21,619 --> 00:22:24,819
to find the Lotus Fall hardcover, paperback, ebook,

622
00:22:24,819 --> 00:22:25,559
or audiobook.

623
00:22:25,859 --> 00:22:28,099
You can also preorder directly from the publisher

624
00:22:28,099 --> 00:22:28,599
atfayettepress.com

625
00:22:29,875 --> 00:22:31,714
to get a signed copy of Lotus Fall

626
00:22:31,714 --> 00:22:34,515
along with some super sweet swag. Get all

627
00:22:34,515 --> 00:22:35,954
those links in our show notes for this

628
00:22:35,954 --> 00:22:37,095
episode 223

629
00:22:37,714 --> 00:22:38,855
or at lord haymond.com

630
00:22:39,640 --> 00:22:40,140
/podcast.

631
00:22:41,480 --> 00:22:43,099
Alright. For chapter 2

632
00:22:43,400 --> 00:22:46,220
of our coverage of Realm Makers 2024,

633
00:22:47,355 --> 00:22:49,274
We're gonna talk about day 2 of the

634
00:22:49,274 --> 00:22:52,095
conference. So what's been happening on Friday,

635
00:22:52,794 --> 00:22:55,375
both in some of the, the main sessions,

636
00:22:55,515 --> 00:22:56,494
the elective

637
00:22:56,970 --> 00:22:57,470
sessions,

638
00:22:57,769 --> 00:22:59,710
the realm awards ceremony,

639
00:23:00,569 --> 00:23:03,929
and some conversations that Steven has had, around

640
00:23:03,929 --> 00:23:05,390
the Lord Haven booth.

641
00:23:05,734 --> 00:23:08,534
So, Steven, this morning, things kicked off with

642
00:23:08,534 --> 00:23:11,274
this great talk from Carla Hawke,

643
00:23:11,654 --> 00:23:12,054
who,

644
00:23:12,615 --> 00:23:13,355
is known

645
00:23:13,809 --> 00:23:16,529
by her book, Fight Right and also her

646
00:23:16,529 --> 00:23:19,109
website of the same name. And she's releasing

647
00:23:19,250 --> 00:23:19,569
a,

648
00:23:20,369 --> 00:23:22,695
a sequel to that, Fight Right round 2,

649
00:23:22,835 --> 00:23:24,055
appropriately named.

650
00:23:24,355 --> 00:23:26,674
And so she goes into all different kinds

651
00:23:26,674 --> 00:23:28,595
of things that authors would need to know

652
00:23:28,595 --> 00:23:30,295
about writing good fight scenes.

653
00:23:30,940 --> 00:23:33,019
The really interesting thing about this is she

654
00:23:33,019 --> 00:23:33,759
said that,

655
00:23:35,339 --> 00:23:37,980
juries now, because of how everyone is aware

656
00:23:37,980 --> 00:23:39,119
of shows like CSI,

657
00:23:40,174 --> 00:23:40,674
that,

658
00:23:41,134 --> 00:23:43,875
jury members expect certain kinds of detail

659
00:23:44,654 --> 00:23:45,634
to be presented

660
00:23:45,934 --> 00:23:46,434
by

661
00:23:46,894 --> 00:23:47,634
the prosecutors

662
00:23:48,269 --> 00:23:50,830
for certain kinds of, you know, information that

663
00:23:50,830 --> 00:23:53,230
could clear someone's name by the defense, like

664
00:23:53,230 --> 00:23:54,450
DNA, fingerprints,

665
00:23:54,830 --> 00:23:56,210
video evidence, whatever.

666
00:23:57,144 --> 00:23:58,904
And, she made a really funny point that,

667
00:23:58,904 --> 00:24:01,384
did you know that koalas can have human

668
00:24:01,384 --> 00:24:04,365
like fingerprints? Like, how many koalas have been

669
00:24:05,259 --> 00:24:08,399
prosecuted for, you know, human crimes, either

670
00:24:08,940 --> 00:24:10,619
or how many koalas have gotten away with

671
00:24:10,619 --> 00:24:12,795
murder? So that was kind of funny. But

672
00:24:12,795 --> 00:24:15,355
this was a really interesting observation she made

673
00:24:15,355 --> 00:24:16,494
about how stories

674
00:24:16,795 --> 00:24:19,275
have actually changed culture, how they have changed

675
00:24:19,275 --> 00:24:20,494
the justice system.

676
00:24:21,669 --> 00:24:23,049
And because of shows like

677
00:24:23,509 --> 00:24:24,169
that, readers

678
00:24:24,549 --> 00:24:28,169
of thrillers and crime stories and action stories,

679
00:24:28,524 --> 00:24:30,765
they expect a certain amount of detail in

680
00:24:30,765 --> 00:24:31,505
those stories.

681
00:24:31,884 --> 00:24:34,605
And so Carla is is your gal for

682
00:24:34,605 --> 00:24:35,744
learning all that out.

683
00:24:36,440 --> 00:24:39,319
She made a really good encouragement to all

684
00:24:39,319 --> 00:24:41,319
the writers here. She says, if you don't

685
00:24:41,319 --> 00:24:42,859
think you have what it takes,

686
00:24:43,285 --> 00:24:45,445
keep doing it until you have what it

687
00:24:45,445 --> 00:24:47,705
takes. I just thought that's that's great.

688
00:24:48,244 --> 00:24:48,984
You know,

689
00:24:49,365 --> 00:24:50,965
we're we're gonna talk about the Realm Awards

690
00:24:50,965 --> 00:24:52,929
in a minute. But what's so,

691
00:24:53,470 --> 00:24:54,990
common, I think, for a lot of writers

692
00:24:54,990 --> 00:24:56,990
here, Stephen, is especially if you've been here

693
00:24:56,990 --> 00:24:57,730
a few times,

694
00:24:58,750 --> 00:25:00,690
you've been you've been here many, many years,

695
00:25:01,164 --> 00:25:03,164
and you're not one of the Roan award

696
00:25:03,164 --> 00:25:05,025
winners. You know, you're not a finalist.

697
00:25:05,565 --> 00:25:07,724
You don't even have a book, that's published

698
00:25:07,724 --> 00:25:08,224
yet.

699
00:25:08,684 --> 00:25:10,224
It it can feel like,

700
00:25:10,990 --> 00:25:13,170
am I crazy for wanting to do this?

701
00:25:13,630 --> 00:25:15,809
Is this just a a pipe dream?

702
00:25:16,190 --> 00:25:18,190
Because maybe I don't really know what I'm

703
00:25:18,190 --> 00:25:19,470
doing. I don't know why I'm here. I

704
00:25:19,470 --> 00:25:21,125
don't know why I'm writing. I could be

705
00:25:21,125 --> 00:25:22,865
doing a number of things. I could be

706
00:25:23,005 --> 00:25:24,845
playing video games. I could be catching up

707
00:25:24,845 --> 00:25:25,505
on my,

708
00:25:25,884 --> 00:25:28,125
you know, my YouTube or my Netflix watch

709
00:25:28,125 --> 00:25:30,640
list, which I'm only ever adding to. I'm

710
00:25:30,640 --> 00:25:32,880
never actually watching anything. I just really, they

711
00:25:32,880 --> 00:25:34,320
should make a plan where that's all you

712
00:25:34,320 --> 00:25:35,840
do is you just add stuff to your

713
00:25:35,840 --> 00:25:36,505
watch list.

714
00:25:37,144 --> 00:25:38,845
So it can be kind of discouraging,

715
00:25:39,384 --> 00:25:41,305
to be one of the many other authors

716
00:25:41,305 --> 00:25:43,805
here. But, you know, Realm Makers is not

717
00:25:44,009 --> 00:25:44,509
a,

718
00:25:45,690 --> 00:25:47,529
an environment where everyone is,

719
00:25:49,130 --> 00:25:51,529
jealous or back talking or all this kind

720
00:25:51,529 --> 00:25:52,035
of stuff.

721
00:25:52,434 --> 00:25:54,934
It's such an encouraging place. It's really incredible.

722
00:25:55,634 --> 00:25:57,154
But what do you do if you're that

723
00:25:57,154 --> 00:25:58,855
author who's still trying

724
00:25:59,529 --> 00:26:01,369
to get a book published or get it

725
00:26:01,369 --> 00:26:02,750
noticed or get it sold?

726
00:26:03,210 --> 00:26:05,610
And so her talk was all about this.

727
00:26:05,610 --> 00:26:07,070
It was all about her journey

728
00:26:08,404 --> 00:26:11,224
of of going from unpublished, you know, clueless

729
00:26:11,524 --> 00:26:12,024
writer

730
00:26:12,724 --> 00:26:13,784
to now,

731
00:26:14,644 --> 00:26:17,259
I guess, best selling author. Well, what I've

732
00:26:17,259 --> 00:26:19,220
always appreciated about Carla, and she's been with

733
00:26:19,220 --> 00:26:21,420
the Realm Makers, almost since the very beginning,

734
00:26:21,420 --> 00:26:24,275
I think, is that she writes about and

735
00:26:24,275 --> 00:26:27,095
talks about and demonstrates in person, has demonstrated

736
00:26:27,234 --> 00:26:28,134
in person before,

737
00:26:28,914 --> 00:26:30,835
the goodness of the human body. How the

738
00:26:30,835 --> 00:26:31,974
human body works.

739
00:26:32,299 --> 00:26:34,559
Why these physical details matter.

740
00:26:35,019 --> 00:26:37,340
I think that is a healthy corrective, not

741
00:26:37,340 --> 00:26:39,660
just for understanding things like self defense and

742
00:26:39,660 --> 00:26:42,355
the mechanics of a fight scene, the emotion,

743
00:26:42,355 --> 00:26:44,434
what's going on when the adrenaline hits, and

744
00:26:44,434 --> 00:26:46,194
some of the myths that you see in

745
00:26:46,194 --> 00:26:48,294
movies and streaming shows and in books.

746
00:26:48,674 --> 00:26:51,470
She debunks all of that stuff. But I've

747
00:26:51,470 --> 00:26:53,630
always appreciated, just my take on it, is

748
00:26:53,630 --> 00:26:56,450
that, she is actually helping to counter

749
00:26:56,750 --> 00:26:58,289
some of the Gnostic assumptions

750
00:26:58,750 --> 00:27:00,305
that Christian stories have.

751
00:27:00,785 --> 00:27:02,705
I have heard people pitch books, like, to

752
00:27:02,705 --> 00:27:04,545
me, not like I'm, you know, acquiring, but

753
00:27:04,545 --> 00:27:06,144
I guess I've got one of those faces

754
00:27:06,144 --> 00:27:07,585
where people want to tell me their stories.

755
00:27:07,585 --> 00:27:09,285
It's probably why I'm doing this job.

756
00:27:09,640 --> 00:27:11,960
People will pitch their stories and, I'll look

757
00:27:11,960 --> 00:27:13,960
at books sometimes and, you know, maybe some

758
00:27:13,960 --> 00:27:15,319
of these are books that we've declined to

759
00:27:15,319 --> 00:27:16,220
review at Lorehaven,

760
00:27:16,994 --> 00:27:19,815
where the author seems persuaded that the physical,

761
00:27:20,275 --> 00:27:23,075
the humanity of the characters is the least

762
00:27:23,075 --> 00:27:26,069
interesting thing about them. And what matters most,

763
00:27:26,230 --> 00:27:28,390
what the author finds most interesting about the

764
00:27:28,390 --> 00:27:28,890
character

765
00:27:29,269 --> 00:27:32,384
is the spiritual side. You know, the soul,

766
00:27:32,845 --> 00:27:35,085
the spiritual component of the human, whether they

767
00:27:35,085 --> 00:27:36,785
call it soul or spirit or whatever.

768
00:27:37,484 --> 00:27:39,804
And as a result, unfortunately, the story tends

769
00:27:39,804 --> 00:27:40,625
to suffer.

770
00:27:40,980 --> 00:27:44,099
Because the story seems accidentally ashamed of the

771
00:27:44,099 --> 00:27:46,820
idea of the characters being human. And so

772
00:27:46,820 --> 00:27:48,544
when she's talking about fight scenes, and this

773
00:27:48,544 --> 00:27:50,345
is what happens when you hit here, and

774
00:27:50,345 --> 00:27:51,784
if you punch to the nose a certain

775
00:27:51,784 --> 00:27:54,125
way, like, you could actually kill a bloke.

776
00:27:54,585 --> 00:27:56,320
He's not just gonna shrug that one off

777
00:27:56,320 --> 00:27:58,480
and then be perfectly fine peeling himself off

778
00:27:58,480 --> 00:28:00,720
the street. No. Humans are made this way,

779
00:28:00,720 --> 00:28:02,420
and humans can be unmade

780
00:28:02,880 --> 00:28:04,525
in this way or other. So that's one

781
00:28:04,525 --> 00:28:06,605
way that I think, what she does helps

782
00:28:06,605 --> 00:28:08,924
to incidentally reflect that theme of stories that

783
00:28:08,924 --> 00:28:10,765
are made by humans. Not just made by

784
00:28:10,765 --> 00:28:11,265
humans,

785
00:28:11,565 --> 00:28:13,920
but that are about humans. You know, there's

786
00:28:13,920 --> 00:28:16,559
a famous Lewis quote that God likes matter.

787
00:28:16,559 --> 00:28:19,200
He invented it. And so, when we go

788
00:28:19,200 --> 00:28:21,414
too far afield in to generative AI and

789
00:28:21,414 --> 00:28:23,015
all that, as you were saying earlier, Zach,

790
00:28:23,015 --> 00:28:23,595
you know,

791
00:28:23,975 --> 00:28:26,075
these things don't have a soul.

792
00:28:26,695 --> 00:28:29,035
These things, they're not even really an imagination.

793
00:28:29,380 --> 00:28:32,019
They're just auto filling. They're training on what

794
00:28:32,019 --> 00:28:33,480
actually humans have said,

795
00:28:33,940 --> 00:28:35,220
and the closer I think we can get

796
00:28:35,220 --> 00:28:36,900
to humanity, the closer we can get to

797
00:28:36,900 --> 00:28:38,440
better Christian made stories.

798
00:28:38,795 --> 00:28:41,195
Yeah. You know, we are not just ugly

799
00:28:41,195 --> 00:28:43,994
bags of mostly water, as an alien and

800
00:28:43,994 --> 00:28:45,055
Star Trek said.

801
00:28:45,595 --> 00:28:47,855
We are fearfully and wonderfully made.

802
00:28:48,349 --> 00:28:49,490
So I was talking,

803
00:28:50,109 --> 00:28:53,309
earlier with Steve Smith, the president of Oasis

804
00:28:53,309 --> 00:28:55,549
Family Media, one of our main sponsors for

805
00:28:55,549 --> 00:28:56,849
the show. Thank you, Oasis.

806
00:28:57,565 --> 00:28:58,065
And,

807
00:28:58,924 --> 00:29:01,085
Steve recounted a conversation we had with him

808
00:29:01,085 --> 00:29:02,524
when he was on the podcast for our

809
00:29:02,524 --> 00:29:05,325
Steve saga. And apparently I can't even barely

810
00:29:05,325 --> 00:29:07,650
remember this, but I made a comment that,

811
00:29:07,650 --> 00:29:10,230
you know, why is there not any Utopian

812
00:29:10,289 --> 00:29:12,610
fiction? Why why is it all dystopian? Because

813
00:29:12,610 --> 00:29:15,009
it'd be boring. Right? There's no conflict. No

814
00:29:15,009 --> 00:29:17,815
story. Right. And so it sent him down

815
00:29:17,815 --> 00:29:19,494
a rabbit hole, he said. And he has

816
00:29:19,494 --> 00:29:20,954
spent 100 of hours

817
00:29:21,654 --> 00:29:25,174
researching and reading and listening to Utopian fiction.

818
00:29:25,174 --> 00:29:26,679
Now, most of it is a lot older.

819
00:29:26,679 --> 00:29:28,619
It's like back from a 100 years ago.

820
00:29:29,159 --> 00:29:29,559
It's,

821
00:29:30,200 --> 00:29:32,679
I think, Arthur c Clark in in sort

822
00:29:32,679 --> 00:29:34,654
of that era of science fiction. I think

823
00:29:34,654 --> 00:29:35,654
there'd be a whole lot of it that

824
00:29:35,654 --> 00:29:37,914
would have been, like, someone just propagandizing.

825
00:29:38,375 --> 00:29:40,694
Yeah. Because he thought he could found the

826
00:29:40,694 --> 00:29:41,194
community,

827
00:29:41,799 --> 00:29:43,799
you know, in 19th century America that was

828
00:29:43,799 --> 00:29:45,400
gonna get it right. We were gonna move

829
00:29:45,400 --> 00:29:47,240
past all this religious stuff. We're gonna go

830
00:29:47,240 --> 00:29:48,440
off all in the woods and be a

831
00:29:48,440 --> 00:29:50,714
commune. So they'd write a novel imagining what

832
00:29:50,714 --> 00:29:52,434
it would be like, and usually, they ended

833
00:29:52,434 --> 00:29:54,194
up trying it themselves and then wiping out

834
00:29:54,194 --> 00:29:54,694
spectacularly.

835
00:29:54,994 --> 00:29:56,674
Oh, yeah. I mean, and these are people

836
00:29:56,674 --> 00:29:59,720
that didn't always realize that the utopia they

837
00:29:59,720 --> 00:30:00,380
were creating,

838
00:30:01,319 --> 00:30:03,559
is only kind of utopying for some people,

839
00:30:03,960 --> 00:30:05,500
depending on your ideology

840
00:30:05,880 --> 00:30:07,019
or, you know,

841
00:30:07,464 --> 00:30:09,244
physical makeup or whatever.

842
00:30:09,704 --> 00:30:12,184
And so, yes, it might be utopian for

843
00:30:12,184 --> 00:30:13,944
one group of people, but not for most

844
00:30:13,944 --> 00:30:14,444
people.

845
00:30:15,130 --> 00:30:15,789
And so,

846
00:30:16,970 --> 00:30:18,029
apparently some,

847
00:30:18,809 --> 00:30:21,710
you know, utopian fiction inspired the,

848
00:30:22,464 --> 00:30:25,105
inspired Hitler. I feel like I'm breaking Godwin's

849
00:30:25,105 --> 00:30:26,244
law, whatever it is.

850
00:30:26,704 --> 00:30:28,625
But but Steve told me all about this,

851
00:30:28,625 --> 00:30:29,445
about these

852
00:30:29,825 --> 00:30:31,365
utopian stories that

853
00:30:32,480 --> 00:30:35,519
influenced a very dark period in, you know,

854
00:30:35,519 --> 00:30:36,980
war, world history.

855
00:30:38,079 --> 00:30:40,240
But we we are talking about, like, what

856
00:30:40,240 --> 00:30:41,139
is it about

857
00:30:41,825 --> 00:30:44,545
both utopian and dystopian that really misses the

858
00:30:44,545 --> 00:30:45,924
mark for a lot of people?

859
00:30:46,785 --> 00:30:47,684
And it's that

860
00:30:47,985 --> 00:30:50,144
neither one is telling the true story of

861
00:30:50,144 --> 00:30:51,365
humanity. Right?

862
00:30:51,730 --> 00:30:53,970
So you're either trying to tell a story

863
00:30:53,970 --> 00:30:54,470
where

864
00:30:55,009 --> 00:30:56,630
humans are basically good

865
00:30:57,330 --> 00:30:59,894
and or or at worst, we're neutral. And

866
00:30:59,894 --> 00:31:01,015
all you have to do is put in

867
00:31:01,015 --> 00:31:01,914
the right programming

868
00:31:02,455 --> 00:31:04,474
and people will do the right things, or

869
00:31:04,535 --> 00:31:06,455
they're already good. You know, we're we have

870
00:31:06,455 --> 00:31:08,234
a spark of the divine in us.

871
00:31:08,589 --> 00:31:10,750
Anything is possible that we put our minds

872
00:31:10,750 --> 00:31:11,250
to.

873
00:31:13,230 --> 00:31:15,150
But then dystopian is like the equal and

874
00:31:15,150 --> 00:31:17,955
opposite error that only bad things will happen

875
00:31:18,015 --> 00:31:20,095
and everything will go from bad to worse,

876
00:31:20,095 --> 00:31:21,315
that there's no redemptive

877
00:31:21,695 --> 00:31:23,555
value. And that also is

878
00:31:24,015 --> 00:31:25,475
is obviously very depressing.

879
00:31:26,039 --> 00:31:28,440
At our table tonight at the rum awards,

880
00:31:28,440 --> 00:31:30,039
there was a kind of a side conversation

881
00:31:30,039 --> 00:31:31,580
happening. It was interesting between,

882
00:31:32,279 --> 00:31:34,279
one of the teen writers that's here and,

883
00:31:34,680 --> 00:31:37,684
another lady. And they were both talking about

884
00:31:37,684 --> 00:31:40,404
why they hated the end of The Hunger

885
00:31:40,404 --> 00:31:42,244
Games. Doesn't everyone hate the end of The

886
00:31:42,244 --> 00:31:44,840
Hunger Games? Because everybody dies, there's no hope,

887
00:31:44,840 --> 00:31:47,080
and, you know, heroin gets married, but it's

888
00:31:47,080 --> 00:31:49,480
really no happy ending whatsoever. Right. It's probably

889
00:31:49,480 --> 00:31:51,634
happened all over again. And, you know, the

890
00:31:51,634 --> 00:31:54,294
person she's trying to save the whole story,

891
00:31:55,234 --> 00:31:56,454
does. And

892
00:31:57,154 --> 00:31:59,075
by the hand of the person that she

893
00:31:59,075 --> 00:32:00,294
thought loved her

894
00:32:00,910 --> 00:32:02,670
And the other guy that loves her is

895
00:32:02,670 --> 00:32:04,430
kind of a train wreck of a of

896
00:32:04,430 --> 00:32:05,090
a person.

897
00:32:05,710 --> 00:32:07,470
And, you know, not really through any fault

898
00:32:07,470 --> 00:32:09,789
of his own, but through this horrible world

899
00:32:09,789 --> 00:32:10,795
that's created,

900
00:32:11,515 --> 00:32:13,934
where there really are no heroes that emerge.

901
00:32:15,035 --> 00:32:17,115
The people that rise to power are just

902
00:32:17,115 --> 00:32:19,035
as bad as the people they took power

903
00:32:19,035 --> 00:32:19,535
from.

904
00:32:20,700 --> 00:32:23,259
So what's the point? Like, you don't really

905
00:32:23,259 --> 00:32:24,160
change anything.

906
00:32:25,179 --> 00:32:28,134
It doesn't really get any better. It kinda

907
00:32:28,134 --> 00:32:28,875
gets worse.

908
00:32:29,734 --> 00:32:30,555
So, yeah,

909
00:32:31,894 --> 00:32:33,494
that kinda depressed me too when I read

910
00:32:33,494 --> 00:32:34,695
it, now that I think about it. That

911
00:32:34,695 --> 00:32:35,960
was about 10 years ago.

912
00:32:36,440 --> 00:32:37,899
And so dystopian fiction

913
00:32:38,519 --> 00:32:40,220
also misses the mark because

914
00:32:40,839 --> 00:32:42,220
it's a story without

915
00:32:42,679 --> 00:32:43,179
redemptive

916
00:32:43,799 --> 00:32:44,299
power,

917
00:32:44,934 --> 00:32:46,154
without the supernatural

918
00:32:46,535 --> 00:32:48,474
breaking into the real world.

919
00:32:49,095 --> 00:32:51,015
It's not realistic. And it does it's not

920
00:32:51,015 --> 00:32:53,390
that it's not realistic because there's no Christians

921
00:32:53,390 --> 00:32:54,930
or some Christian message.

922
00:32:55,390 --> 00:32:57,090
Look at what Jesus said about

923
00:32:57,950 --> 00:33:01,005
God loves people so much that he sends

924
00:33:01,005 --> 00:33:03,484
rain on the good and the wicked. Common

925
00:33:03,484 --> 00:33:06,125
grace. Yes. Yeah. And so we see that

926
00:33:06,125 --> 00:33:08,305
all throughout the world, all throughout history.

927
00:33:09,080 --> 00:33:10,220
We've seen that with

928
00:33:10,759 --> 00:33:13,000
some recent events and some other events in

929
00:33:13,000 --> 00:33:13,980
our history when,

930
00:33:15,080 --> 00:33:16,859
certain people could have been killed

931
00:33:17,224 --> 00:33:18,044
or certain,

932
00:33:18,744 --> 00:33:21,484
nuclear missiles could have been launched that weren't,

933
00:33:22,184 --> 00:33:24,585
or that in, there's a story, in fact,

934
00:33:24,585 --> 00:33:27,200
in, in Russia, of all places, of the

935
00:33:27,200 --> 00:33:28,419
former Soviet Union.

936
00:33:28,960 --> 00:33:31,140
If I had the story right, the captain

937
00:33:31,200 --> 00:33:33,059
of a submarine from the Soviet Union

938
00:33:33,519 --> 00:33:35,619
was given the order to fire

939
00:33:36,345 --> 00:33:37,724
his nuclear missiles.

940
00:33:38,184 --> 00:33:39,865
And this was some kind of mistake that

941
00:33:39,865 --> 00:33:40,365
happened,

942
00:33:40,825 --> 00:33:41,804
and he refused.

943
00:33:43,880 --> 00:33:46,359
And he wanted to really be sure that

944
00:33:46,359 --> 00:33:48,440
we were actually at war, you know, that

945
00:33:48,440 --> 00:33:49,819
we're DEFCON won.

946
00:33:50,519 --> 00:33:53,115
And, because he refused and tried to get

947
00:33:53,115 --> 00:33:53,615
more

948
00:33:53,994 --> 00:33:56,894
information, we're still alive today. That's pretty amazing.

949
00:33:57,194 --> 00:34:00,255
And, again, that's in the Soviet Union. Like,

950
00:34:00,820 --> 00:34:04,259
God broke into that situation. He breaks into

951
00:34:04,259 --> 00:34:05,080
other situations,

952
00:34:05,539 --> 00:34:07,220
so we have to have stories that reflect

953
00:34:07,220 --> 00:34:09,664
that. Now, a more recent example, of course,

954
00:34:09,664 --> 00:34:11,984
Zach, on my way to Realm Makers, I'm

955
00:34:11,984 --> 00:34:13,664
listening to because we've just done our Left

956
00:34:13,664 --> 00:34:16,289
Behind Legacy series. A better example, by the

957
00:34:16,289 --> 00:34:17,809
way, of a dystopian with hope at the

958
00:34:17,809 --> 00:34:19,670
end because Christ Literally Returns,

959
00:34:20,050 --> 00:34:21,190
the Left Behind series.

960
00:34:21,489 --> 00:34:24,085
I was listening to the assassins portion of

961
00:34:24,085 --> 00:34:26,164
the Left Behind audio drama. Listened to 2

962
00:34:26,164 --> 00:34:28,025
episodes. The last one ended with gunfire.

963
00:34:28,485 --> 00:34:30,885
Riding in the passenger seat, getting some rest

964
00:34:30,885 --> 00:34:33,010
while my wife is driving. And I sit

965
00:34:33,010 --> 00:34:34,690
up and I think, I think I'll, check

966
00:34:34,690 --> 00:34:36,289
on my phone, see what I may have

967
00:34:36,289 --> 00:34:37,989
missed in the meantime, Realmmakers

968
00:34:38,289 --> 00:34:39,190
hype, you know.

969
00:34:39,545 --> 00:34:41,385
Instead, there's a message from my brother to

970
00:34:41,385 --> 00:34:43,005
the siblings chat saying,

971
00:34:43,625 --> 00:34:46,779
somebody just shot a former president of the

972
00:34:46,779 --> 00:34:48,859
United States, and it appears to be a

973
00:34:48,859 --> 00:34:50,239
flesh wound, but wow.

974
00:34:50,619 --> 00:34:53,500
He literally dodged a bullet, and to some

975
00:34:53,500 --> 00:34:56,265
extent, American society dodged a heck of a

976
00:34:56,265 --> 00:34:59,005
lot of political and social upheaval.

977
00:34:59,465 --> 00:35:01,224
Because if something worse had happened to him,

978
00:35:01,224 --> 00:35:02,704
well, first off, it's a human life loss

979
00:35:02,824 --> 00:35:04,184
Yeah. Then it is a president no matter

980
00:35:04,184 --> 00:35:05,880
what you think about him. And secondly, there's

981
00:35:05,880 --> 00:35:07,480
gonna be a lot more people mad at

982
00:35:07,480 --> 00:35:09,159
a whole lot of other more people, and

983
00:35:09,159 --> 00:35:11,159
we're already seeing that now. You know, we

984
00:35:11,159 --> 00:35:13,159
avoid the political issues here, but you do

985
00:35:13,159 --> 00:35:15,019
see then the hand of God there.

986
00:35:15,704 --> 00:35:18,445
Providentially guiding things and arranging the story,

987
00:35:19,065 --> 00:35:21,465
away from utopia, obviously. We're not gonna get

988
00:35:21,465 --> 00:35:23,164
that until Christ does return,

989
00:35:23,670 --> 00:35:26,170
but certainly away from dystopia also.

990
00:35:26,789 --> 00:35:29,750
His hand is providentially guiding things. So I'm

991
00:35:29,750 --> 00:35:31,769
not a big fan of utopian, and

992
00:35:32,105 --> 00:35:34,264
increasingly, I'm not a huge fan of dystopian

993
00:35:34,264 --> 00:35:35,545
either. But Zach, if you want to, we

994
00:35:35,545 --> 00:35:37,465
can talk about the categories that did win

995
00:35:37,465 --> 00:35:37,965
big

996
00:35:38,344 --> 00:35:40,679
at the Realmmakers Conference. Probably why some of

997
00:35:40,679 --> 00:35:43,239
our listeners are here. Zach and I probably

998
00:35:43,239 --> 00:35:45,079
have a little bit of a strain in

999
00:35:45,079 --> 00:35:47,239
our voices, but we're just letting that, on

1000
00:35:47,239 --> 00:35:50,025
through because we are literally recording this the

1001
00:35:50,025 --> 00:35:52,764
evening after the Realm Awards banquet,

1002
00:35:53,464 --> 00:35:55,724
on Friday, July 19th.

1003
00:35:56,280 --> 00:35:58,039
They get together, for those who haven't been

1004
00:35:58,039 --> 00:36:00,119
to Realm Makers, you have the option of

1005
00:36:00,119 --> 00:36:01,420
dressing up in costume.

1006
00:36:02,039 --> 00:36:04,140
They even have like a costume award.

1007
00:36:04,494 --> 00:36:06,175
For the first time, my wife Lacey and

1008
00:36:06,175 --> 00:36:07,454
I actually got to get on stage because

1009
00:36:07,454 --> 00:36:09,375
we were nominated. In fact, I'm sitting here

1010
00:36:09,375 --> 00:36:11,795
right now in my Tom Bombadil

1011
00:36:12,175 --> 00:36:14,034
outfit. I am speaking through

1012
00:36:14,400 --> 00:36:15,619
a very convincing

1013
00:36:16,160 --> 00:36:17,699
fake beard, in fact.

1014
00:36:18,160 --> 00:36:21,059
Looking like, Middle Earth's ageless being,

1015
00:36:21,574 --> 00:36:23,574
with one of the most beautiful women in

1016
00:36:23,574 --> 00:36:25,335
Middle Earth. I even had a tray with

1017
00:36:25,335 --> 00:36:27,175
water lilies on it. Yeah. We're gonna post

1018
00:36:27,175 --> 00:36:29,230
some photos for sure, if you haven't seen

1019
00:36:29,230 --> 00:36:31,950
them already. But, enough of that. It was

1020
00:36:31,950 --> 00:36:34,769
wonderful just to see all of these costumes

1021
00:36:34,910 --> 00:36:35,410
then

1022
00:36:35,869 --> 00:36:39,114
made by humans, And to celebrate, as before,

1023
00:36:39,654 --> 00:36:41,114
all of these stories,

1024
00:36:41,654 --> 00:36:43,755
audio stories, cover design,

1025
00:36:44,134 --> 00:36:44,954
short fiction,

1026
00:36:45,255 --> 00:36:47,239
and full length published novels

1027
00:36:47,719 --> 00:36:49,559
that have been made by humans. And so

1028
00:36:49,559 --> 00:36:51,480
I have the winners list here real quick.

1029
00:36:51,639 --> 00:36:53,400
We haven't, you know, read all these books,

1030
00:36:53,400 --> 00:36:55,704
obviously, but lots of folks wanna know these

1031
00:36:55,704 --> 00:36:58,664
winners. It's the 2024 Realm Awards celebrating the

1032
00:36:58,664 --> 00:37:01,065
best Christian made fantastical fiction that they got

1033
00:37:01,065 --> 00:37:01,804
entered in,

1034
00:37:02,264 --> 00:37:03,085
of 2023,

1035
00:37:04,079 --> 00:37:07,460
starting with the best, short story Flash Fiction

1036
00:37:07,599 --> 00:37:08,900
award for inversion

1037
00:37:09,199 --> 00:37:10,420
by Cathy McCrum.

1038
00:37:10,800 --> 00:37:12,960
She's been on the show before talking about

1039
00:37:12,960 --> 00:37:14,925
her series there. I don't know if that's

1040
00:37:14,925 --> 00:37:16,125
set in the same universe or not, but

1041
00:37:16,125 --> 00:37:17,885
there's an honorable mention there too. You know,

1042
00:37:17,885 --> 00:37:19,244
I don't think I can mention all the

1043
00:37:19,244 --> 00:37:21,710
honorable mentions. They are indeed very honorable. I

1044
00:37:21,710 --> 00:37:23,409
will have the whole list posted at lorehaven.com,

1045
00:37:23,789 --> 00:37:26,049
and I'm sure Realmmakers will also post that.

1046
00:37:26,269 --> 00:37:30,075
Best novella, Shattered Echoes by Hope Jean Jian.

1047
00:37:30,075 --> 00:37:31,735
I hope I'm pronouncing that correctly.

1048
00:37:32,675 --> 00:37:34,295
Best novel audiobook,

1049
00:37:34,835 --> 00:37:37,155
Rogue Pursuit by Becky Dean. She's been on

1050
00:37:37,155 --> 00:37:38,769
the show talking about that series. I think

1051
00:37:38,769 --> 00:37:40,890
that was just last summer, actually. Yeah. That's

1052
00:37:40,890 --> 00:37:43,369
the audiobook version. Rogue Pursuit by BL Dean,

1053
00:37:43,369 --> 00:37:45,230
narrated by Sierra Klein.

1054
00:37:45,755 --> 00:37:47,835
Best cover design, apparently, a neck and neck

1055
00:37:47,835 --> 00:37:49,775
competition between 2 designers,

1056
00:37:50,394 --> 00:37:53,195
but the winner was, Kirk DuPont, who designed

1057
00:37:53,195 --> 00:37:56,280
the cover for Steel Fire from the Gods.

1058
00:37:56,980 --> 00:37:58,900
That was a book that, Jamie Foley was

1059
00:37:58,900 --> 00:38:00,900
talking about, designing a bunch when we had

1060
00:38:00,900 --> 00:38:03,065
her on the podcast earlier this year.

1061
00:38:03,464 --> 00:38:04,364
Debut author,

1062
00:38:04,744 --> 00:38:07,944
Suspended in the Stars by EA Hendricks. That

1063
00:38:07,944 --> 00:38:09,625
one picked up a few more awards here

1064
00:38:09,625 --> 00:38:11,304
too. Yeah. That one looked really good. In

1065
00:38:11,304 --> 00:38:12,900
fact, I I sent a picture of it

1066
00:38:12,900 --> 00:38:13,380
to,

1067
00:38:13,779 --> 00:38:15,559
my oldest daughter who's at home

1068
00:38:16,260 --> 00:38:17,779
and my middle daughter who's here with me,

1069
00:38:17,779 --> 00:38:19,380
they both said, I wanna read that book.

1070
00:38:19,380 --> 00:38:21,139
It looks so good. Okay. We got a

1071
00:38:21,139 --> 00:38:22,734
copy of it. Well, it looks to be

1072
00:38:22,734 --> 00:38:24,994
science fiction as well of some kind. So,

1073
00:38:25,855 --> 00:38:29,154
genre colleague props there from me and Zach.

1074
00:38:29,510 --> 00:38:32,630
Best middle grade winner on Hidden Wings by

1075
00:38:32,630 --> 00:38:35,349
Adaire Elise. Now they pronounce these names correctly.

1076
00:38:35,349 --> 00:38:37,364
I might mispronounce your name. So if so,

1077
00:38:37,525 --> 00:38:39,625
direct all inquiries to podcast at lorehaven.com.

1078
00:38:40,485 --> 00:38:43,364
Best young adult novel, also Suspended in the

1079
00:38:43,364 --> 00:38:44,905
Stars by e a Hendrix.

1080
00:38:45,349 --> 00:38:48,389
And the combined category of horror, paranormal, and

1081
00:38:48,389 --> 00:38:48,889
supernatural

1082
00:38:49,190 --> 00:38:49,690
fiction,

1083
00:38:49,989 --> 00:38:52,809
this one is Almost Paradise by Brian Timothy

1084
00:38:52,869 --> 00:38:55,264
Mitchell. If my memory serves correctly, he won

1085
00:38:55,264 --> 00:38:57,025
in that same category for his first book

1086
00:38:57,025 --> 00:38:58,784
last year, and we had him on the

1087
00:38:58,784 --> 00:39:01,105
show last summer. Yeah. For Infernal Fall. Infernal

1088
00:39:01,105 --> 00:39:02,545
Fall. That was book 1. He's also been

1089
00:39:02,545 --> 00:39:04,519
a sponsor of this podcast. So way to

1090
00:39:04,519 --> 00:39:05,099
go, Brian. Yeah.

1091
00:39:05,480 --> 00:39:06,780
Just owning that category,

1092
00:39:07,239 --> 00:39:08,679
2 years in a row at the Realm

1093
00:39:08,679 --> 00:39:09,179
Awards.

1094
00:39:09,559 --> 00:39:10,619
Best Fantasy

1095
00:39:11,159 --> 00:39:12,605
Song of the Selkies

1096
00:39:13,144 --> 00:39:15,545
by Sarah Pennington. That had a very interesting

1097
00:39:15,545 --> 00:39:16,184
opening, which,

1098
00:39:16,824 --> 00:39:18,684
Scott Miner read most dramatically.

1099
00:39:19,489 --> 00:39:22,530
Best Science Fiction, When Death is Coming by

1100
00:39:22,530 --> 00:39:23,349
Jen Woodrum.

1101
00:39:23,889 --> 00:39:25,730
And then there's the Reader's Choice Award, which

1102
00:39:25,730 --> 00:39:27,090
is a little different from these. They have

1103
00:39:27,090 --> 00:39:29,375
official judges and structure for all of these

1104
00:39:29,375 --> 00:39:31,454
other categories. But the reader's choice is one

1105
00:39:31,454 --> 00:39:33,934
where people actually go to the website and

1106
00:39:33,934 --> 00:39:35,695
then vote. And they have methods to, you

1107
00:39:35,695 --> 00:39:37,614
know, screen out repeat votes and bots and

1108
00:39:37,614 --> 00:39:39,599
stuff. So, it's very much a more populous

1109
00:39:39,599 --> 00:39:41,760
focus there. Anyway, the winner of that was

1110
00:39:41,760 --> 00:39:44,400
A Bond of Briars by Aaron Phillips. I

1111
00:39:44,400 --> 00:39:46,559
think we reviewed that one at Lorehaven, and

1112
00:39:46,559 --> 00:39:47,974
if so, I'll try to put that link

1113
00:39:47,974 --> 00:39:50,315
in the show notes. And the 2024

1114
00:39:50,775 --> 00:39:53,174
Realm Award for Book of the Year goes

1115
00:39:53,174 --> 00:39:53,674
to

1116
00:39:54,329 --> 00:39:55,390
also the Fantasy

1117
00:39:55,769 --> 00:39:59,130
Award winner, Song of the Selkies by Sarah

1118
00:39:59,130 --> 00:39:59,630
Pennington.

1119
00:40:00,250 --> 00:40:02,190
Now, Zach, I'm looking at the cover here.

1120
00:40:02,295 --> 00:40:04,135
This does not naturally look like a book

1121
00:40:04,135 --> 00:40:05,434
for blokes, but

1122
00:40:05,735 --> 00:40:09,035
it obviously swept at least 2 categories here.

1123
00:40:09,575 --> 00:40:12,349
And I remember the author was extremely happy

1124
00:40:12,349 --> 00:40:14,349
to get that award. I love seeing these

1125
00:40:14,349 --> 00:40:16,589
awards be given out. I love celebrating these

1126
00:40:16,589 --> 00:40:17,089
stories

1127
00:40:17,630 --> 00:40:19,569
made by humans. Guys,

1128
00:40:19,985 --> 00:40:22,864
bots can't make these kinds of stories. And

1129
00:40:22,864 --> 00:40:25,125
even if they could, they should not,

1130
00:40:25,505 --> 00:40:28,269
because ethical reasons, because God has made human

1131
00:40:28,269 --> 00:40:30,190
beings to make stories, the bots are at

1132
00:40:30,190 --> 00:40:32,050
best tools that we can use

1133
00:40:32,349 --> 00:40:34,269
to get us places. And bots aren't gonna

1134
00:40:34,269 --> 00:40:35,789
lose their voice like we have,

1135
00:40:36,355 --> 00:40:38,594
cheering and screaming for one another and and,

1136
00:40:38,755 --> 00:40:40,674
others. Or trying to project in a crowded

1137
00:40:40,674 --> 00:40:42,755
room. Right. And, you know, when you were

1138
00:40:42,755 --> 00:40:44,835
up, I definitely lost my voice Oh, thank

1139
00:40:44,835 --> 00:40:46,500
you. And, Yeah. We we have a clap

1140
00:40:46,500 --> 00:40:48,739
off for the best costume person. And, yeah,

1141
00:40:48,739 --> 00:40:50,099
this is what I said earlier, is that

1142
00:40:50,099 --> 00:40:52,340
everybody really needs to support everybody else. You

1143
00:40:52,340 --> 00:40:54,344
know, I'm up there going, like, and you

1144
00:40:54,344 --> 00:40:56,045
go, I hope we win.

1145
00:40:56,344 --> 00:40:57,864
But then, you know, hey, it feels good

1146
00:40:57,864 --> 00:40:59,704
to, you know, lose to the young lady

1147
00:40:59,704 --> 00:41:01,539
who has the semi animatronic

1148
00:41:01,840 --> 00:41:03,440
dragon on her shoulder. I mean, come on.

1149
00:41:03,440 --> 00:41:05,360
That's a special effect. You gotta support that.

1150
00:41:05,360 --> 00:41:06,960
Well, to put a video for that or

1151
00:41:06,960 --> 00:41:09,440
or something in, Instagram or show notes or

1152
00:41:09,440 --> 00:41:10,784
something is pretty incredible.

1153
00:41:11,164 --> 00:41:12,925
So the other thing that's important about Made

1154
00:41:12,925 --> 00:41:14,545
by Humans is relationships.

1155
00:41:14,925 --> 00:41:16,764
That's what we saw so much tonight. We

1156
00:41:16,764 --> 00:41:19,199
saw people cheering for one another. In a

1157
00:41:19,199 --> 00:41:21,280
few cases, an author wasn't here to take

1158
00:41:21,280 --> 00:41:22,500
an award and a friend

1159
00:41:22,960 --> 00:41:25,440
took it for them. We saw authors thanking

1160
00:41:25,440 --> 00:41:27,724
other authors and and their beta readers and

1161
00:41:27,724 --> 00:41:28,224
their

1162
00:41:28,764 --> 00:41:30,844
their family and all the people that helped

1163
00:41:30,844 --> 00:41:32,704
them make it. And that's what's so wonderful

1164
00:41:32,764 --> 00:41:34,799
about this is that this really

1165
00:41:35,179 --> 00:41:37,279
is often a community effort. And, Steven,

1166
00:41:37,579 --> 00:41:39,900
this is what has really surprised me over

1167
00:41:39,900 --> 00:41:40,880
the years when I,

1168
00:41:41,265 --> 00:41:43,425
you know, 10 years ago or something thought,

1169
00:41:43,425 --> 00:41:45,184
oh, maybe I could write a book because

1170
00:41:45,184 --> 00:41:46,545
you can just do that all by yourself.

1171
00:41:46,545 --> 00:41:47,605
You don't need anyone.

1172
00:41:47,985 --> 00:41:49,664
It's not like making a movie or even

1173
00:41:49,664 --> 00:41:52,016
writing a screenplay where you need a ton

1174
00:41:52,016 --> 00:41:54,235
of people to make a movie or even

1175
00:41:54,235 --> 00:41:56,454
a short film. A book still needs a

1176
00:41:56,454 --> 00:41:58,673
lot of people. And one of those kind

1177
00:41:58,673 --> 00:42:00,775
of people you need for a book if

1178
00:42:00,775 --> 00:42:01,275
you're

1179
00:42:01,655 --> 00:42:05,114
publishing with a traditional publisher is an agent.

1180
00:42:05,574 --> 00:42:07,034
This is someone who

1181
00:42:07,335 --> 00:42:09,489
goes through the contract and make sure there's

1182
00:42:09,489 --> 00:42:11,969
no landmines. And that was a seminar I

1183
00:42:11,969 --> 00:42:14,469
went to this afternoon taught by Steve Laube,

1184
00:42:15,010 --> 00:42:17,170
the president of the Steve Laube Agency. And

1185
00:42:17,170 --> 00:42:18,514
now my publisher? Yeah.

1186
00:42:18,914 --> 00:42:21,394
And, boy, there's there's so much to cover

1187
00:42:21,394 --> 00:42:23,234
that he went through. He he printed out

1188
00:42:23,234 --> 00:42:24,534
this whole thing of these

1189
00:42:25,154 --> 00:42:27,234
book contract clauses. And you you read it

1190
00:42:27,234 --> 00:42:28,859
and you scratch head. You're like, what's wrong

1191
00:42:28,859 --> 00:42:30,480
with that? Other times,

1192
00:42:30,859 --> 00:42:32,319
certain things jump out.

1193
00:42:32,699 --> 00:42:34,480
And there's some things that are,

1194
00:42:34,859 --> 00:42:37,119
I I would say, pretty interesting for

1195
00:42:37,465 --> 00:42:39,164
readers to know about. For example,

1196
00:42:39,785 --> 00:42:42,125
there is a thing called a moral turpitude

1197
00:42:42,744 --> 00:42:43,244
clause.

1198
00:42:43,704 --> 00:42:45,469
And Steve said, you know, have you turpitude

1199
00:42:45,469 --> 00:42:47,469
ed today? Like, what what is that word?

1200
00:42:47,469 --> 00:42:49,309
Like, it's such a weird phrase. That sounds

1201
00:42:49,309 --> 00:42:51,329
like something you'd use as a paint thinner.

1202
00:42:51,550 --> 00:42:53,444
Right. Yeah. Like turpentine.

1203
00:42:54,065 --> 00:42:56,324
Yeah. And, now this clause

1204
00:42:57,424 --> 00:43:00,144
explains why there are many books that suddenly

1205
00:43:00,144 --> 00:43:01,659
disappear from the Christian

1206
00:43:02,039 --> 00:43:05,400
bookstore because the writer had some kind of

1207
00:43:05,400 --> 00:43:05,900
scandal,

1208
00:43:06,840 --> 00:43:07,659
or perhaps,

1209
00:43:08,255 --> 00:43:10,914
more than a scandal, perhaps a criminal action,

1210
00:43:11,855 --> 00:43:15,554
or a major moral failing and lost

1211
00:43:16,160 --> 00:43:18,160
his or her position at a church or

1212
00:43:18,160 --> 00:43:19,860
a ministry or some other kind

1213
00:43:20,320 --> 00:43:21,780
of profession, got a divorce,

1214
00:43:22,880 --> 00:43:24,260
in any number of things.

1215
00:43:25,035 --> 00:43:27,195
And, you know, once that happens, that book

1216
00:43:27,195 --> 00:43:29,535
isn't gonna sell, especially to Christian readers.

1217
00:43:30,075 --> 00:43:31,215
Well, the problem is

1218
00:43:31,515 --> 00:43:33,535
these book contracts have the

1219
00:43:33,940 --> 00:43:34,440
wording

1220
00:43:35,460 --> 00:43:37,780
of in the event that an author is

1221
00:43:37,780 --> 00:43:38,280
publicly

1222
00:43:38,660 --> 00:43:39,160
accused

1223
00:43:40,500 --> 00:43:41,980
of an act of moral or duty. So

1224
00:43:42,099 --> 00:43:43,605
So it's a bad kind of cancel culture,

1225
00:43:43,844 --> 00:43:46,164
perhaps. Yeah. So all that someone has to

1226
00:43:46,164 --> 00:43:48,344
do is go on social media and accuse

1227
00:43:48,484 --> 00:43:50,744
an author of something immoral.

1228
00:43:51,550 --> 00:43:53,869
And, a publisher can say, well, alright. We're

1229
00:43:53,869 --> 00:43:56,030
pulling out. Or or or fake immoral, like

1230
00:43:56,190 --> 00:43:58,269
Right. According to the new morality. Like, oh,

1231
00:43:58,269 --> 00:44:00,269
they're a bigot because they said something that's

1232
00:44:00,269 --> 00:44:01,715
from the bible. And, yeah, that won't do

1233
00:44:01,715 --> 00:44:03,795
at all. Right. So one so when Steve

1234
00:44:03,795 --> 00:44:05,474
talked about this section, he said, look, we

1235
00:44:05,474 --> 00:44:08,195
we try to change that because contracts can

1236
00:44:08,195 --> 00:44:09,735
be changed before they're signed.

1237
00:44:10,260 --> 00:44:12,019
We try to get that changed to say,

1238
00:44:12,019 --> 00:44:13,539
okay, there has to be a,

1239
00:44:14,820 --> 00:44:15,960
a court decision

1240
00:44:16,500 --> 00:44:19,324
or a preponderance of evidence or an admission

1241
00:44:19,385 --> 00:44:22,045
by the author of whatever the issue is.

1242
00:44:22,585 --> 00:44:23,085
And,

1243
00:44:23,704 --> 00:44:25,704
yeah. And and then there were other things

1244
00:44:25,704 --> 00:44:26,444
about, like,

1245
00:44:26,960 --> 00:44:29,119
publishers trying to give themselves the right to

1246
00:44:29,119 --> 00:44:29,619
alter

1247
00:44:30,079 --> 00:44:31,219
a human's book,

1248
00:44:31,920 --> 00:44:33,460
and make them pay for it.

1249
00:44:33,760 --> 00:44:35,945
Make them pay for the editing or the

1250
00:44:35,945 --> 00:44:38,585
the changes and we've certainly seen this with,

1251
00:44:39,224 --> 00:44:41,164
the certain kinds of, you know, sensitivity

1252
00:44:42,000 --> 00:44:42,500
reading,

1253
00:44:42,880 --> 00:44:45,199
because again, there's a whole new morality that's

1254
00:44:45,199 --> 00:44:47,059
taken over corners of publishing.

1255
00:44:47,760 --> 00:44:49,519
And so that's, you know, that's not a

1256
00:44:49,519 --> 00:44:52,025
great clause there. And that's it's like a

1257
00:44:52,025 --> 00:44:54,824
different kind of machine that's happening. Right? It's

1258
00:44:54,824 --> 00:44:56,045
not necessarily an AI,

1259
00:44:56,424 --> 00:44:57,885
but there's sort of this, like,

1260
00:44:58,344 --> 00:44:58,844
consensus

1261
00:44:59,144 --> 00:45:01,530
mechanism that happens in our culture that's

1262
00:45:02,409 --> 00:45:04,650
that that gets filtered out through these social

1263
00:45:04,650 --> 00:45:06,750
media algorithms of like, oh, this,

1264
00:45:07,130 --> 00:45:08,809
you know, this is the way to look

1265
00:45:08,809 --> 00:45:10,284
at this and this is not the way

1266
00:45:10,284 --> 00:45:11,804
to look at this. This is how you're

1267
00:45:11,804 --> 00:45:12,304
supposed

1268
00:45:12,844 --> 00:45:14,684
to feel about this or think about this

1269
00:45:14,684 --> 00:45:15,184
issue.

1270
00:45:15,644 --> 00:45:17,105
And those are always changing.

1271
00:45:17,619 --> 00:45:18,019
And,

1272
00:45:18,420 --> 00:45:19,539
so but,

1273
00:45:20,179 --> 00:45:22,679
one really funny thing that happened in this

1274
00:45:22,739 --> 00:45:24,760
seminar that that's been going on a lot

1275
00:45:25,554 --> 00:45:28,454
is this trend overheard at realm makers. So

1276
00:45:28,594 --> 00:45:30,054
the kinds of things that

1277
00:45:30,434 --> 00:45:32,920
you wouldn't just hear at a writer's conference,

1278
00:45:33,000 --> 00:45:35,980
That you only hear at realm makers. Okay?

1279
00:45:36,039 --> 00:45:37,500
Because any writer's conference

1280
00:45:37,960 --> 00:45:40,414
is gonna have awards. They're gonna have book

1281
00:45:40,414 --> 00:45:42,414
contracts. They're gonna have how to show, not

1282
00:45:42,414 --> 00:45:43,635
tell, how to self edit,

1283
00:45:44,094 --> 00:45:45,775
how to market, all that kind of stuff.

1284
00:45:45,775 --> 00:45:48,410
And Realm Makers is so interesting for the

1285
00:45:48,410 --> 00:45:49,789
ways that these

1286
00:45:50,170 --> 00:45:51,309
conversations happen.

1287
00:45:51,930 --> 00:45:53,150
So, for example,

1288
00:45:53,610 --> 00:45:56,090
Steve talked about a clause in one of

1289
00:45:56,090 --> 00:45:58,505
these contracts where it said, the publisher has

1290
00:45:58,505 --> 00:46:00,525
the right throughout the entire universe.

1291
00:46:01,385 --> 00:46:01,704
And,

1292
00:46:02,184 --> 00:46:04,905
Steve kinda fought the publisher and said, don't

1293
00:46:04,905 --> 00:46:06,844
claim you own the rights on Saturn.

1294
00:46:07,750 --> 00:46:09,510
The entire universe would not just be our

1295
00:46:09,510 --> 00:46:11,750
local solar system, which is not even that

1296
00:46:11,750 --> 00:46:12,730
local, but

1297
00:46:13,269 --> 00:46:16,454
a far, far galaxy away. Like, that's, rather

1298
00:46:16,514 --> 00:46:17,974
absurd and domineering.

1299
00:46:18,514 --> 00:46:21,155
Yeah. What an interesting phrase. Somebody was obviously

1300
00:46:21,155 --> 00:46:23,094
into some science fiction a little too much.

1301
00:46:23,315 --> 00:46:26,019
Right. And, he he really tried to take

1302
00:46:26,019 --> 00:46:27,780
them to task over that, and they, you

1303
00:46:27,780 --> 00:46:29,380
know, they always said they wouldn't budge on

1304
00:46:29,380 --> 00:46:32,920
it. Another thing that Steve said, another overheard

1305
00:46:32,980 --> 00:46:35,275
realm makers is, what if we got tired

1306
00:46:35,275 --> 00:46:37,515
of Oasis Family Media and we sell your

1307
00:46:37,515 --> 00:46:38,974
book to Satan Incorporated?

1308
00:46:40,075 --> 00:46:41,755
I would love to know the context of

1309
00:46:41,755 --> 00:46:43,289
that. But on second thought,

1310
00:46:43,610 --> 00:46:46,090
let the context escape me on this late

1311
00:46:46,090 --> 00:46:47,769
night. Let it stand on its own and

1312
00:46:47,769 --> 00:46:48,910
make me forever wonder.

1313
00:46:49,369 --> 00:46:51,949
That's funny. Yeah. Hashtag overheard it, role makers.

1314
00:46:52,250 --> 00:46:53,945
That's a good one. And he ended the

1315
00:46:53,945 --> 00:46:56,385
time by saying, I love scaring you, so

1316
00:46:56,385 --> 00:46:58,864
I hope you'll hire me. Okay. There we

1317
00:46:58,864 --> 00:47:00,805
go. Oh, also overheard at role makers.

1318
00:47:01,380 --> 00:47:03,940
Finally, our 3rd sponsor is the Lore Haven

1319
00:47:03,940 --> 00:47:05,619
Guild. In a moment, I'll talk about what

1320
00:47:05,619 --> 00:47:07,539
we did at the conference for the physical

1321
00:47:07,539 --> 00:47:09,139
version of the guild at our booth here

1322
00:47:09,139 --> 00:47:11,845
in the exhibit hall. But the fun will

1323
00:47:11,845 --> 00:47:13,945
continue after realm makers 2024

1324
00:47:14,565 --> 00:47:17,260
has closed because the guild is actually our

1325
00:47:17,579 --> 00:47:20,139
Discord server, the castle in the cloud. And

1326
00:47:20,139 --> 00:47:22,860
you can portal into this castle for our

1327
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1328
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into the best Christian made fantastical novels that

1329
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we found.

1330
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But you gotta subscribe free at lordaymond.com,

1331
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1332
00:47:33,969 --> 00:47:35,650
to enter the castle. By the way, those

1333
00:47:35,650 --> 00:47:36,710
who've already subscribed,

1334
00:47:37,010 --> 00:47:38,930
you have the link in that email. We

1335
00:47:38,930 --> 00:47:40,930
put it into every successive email we send.

1336
00:47:40,930 --> 00:47:42,369
So if you haven't joined, then now is

1337
00:47:42,369 --> 00:47:44,194
a great time because we are about to

1338
00:47:44,194 --> 00:47:46,614
start that quest into the nightmare virus

1339
00:47:46,994 --> 00:47:48,375
beginning of this Thursday,

1340
00:47:49,074 --> 00:47:52,130
August 1st, led by my friend, Elijah David.

1341
00:47:52,369 --> 00:47:53,509
Subscribe free at lorehaven.com,

1342
00:47:54,289 --> 00:47:55,969
and you can get that link also in

1343
00:47:55,969 --> 00:47:57,809
our show notes to join the Lore Haven

1344
00:47:57,809 --> 00:47:58,309
Guild.

1345
00:47:58,769 --> 00:48:01,045
So we host the Lore Haven Guild year

1346
00:48:01,045 --> 00:48:04,005
round on our Discord server. But for the

1347
00:48:04,005 --> 00:48:07,065
Realmmakers conference, we basically were able to rebrand

1348
00:48:07,125 --> 00:48:09,269
our booth, which we've had for several years

1349
00:48:09,269 --> 00:48:10,010
at that event,

1350
00:48:10,309 --> 00:48:12,809
into the Lore Haven Guild in person.

1351
00:48:13,110 --> 00:48:14,949
And one thing that we really enjoyed this

1352
00:48:14,949 --> 00:48:17,050
time, was debuting our new and improved

1353
00:48:17,785 --> 00:48:18,605
Quest system.

1354
00:48:19,144 --> 00:48:21,465
We just got finished giving away, some of

1355
00:48:21,465 --> 00:48:22,844
our awards, these handcrafted,

1356
00:48:23,545 --> 00:48:24,445
drinking vessels

1357
00:48:24,780 --> 00:48:25,920
that were hashtag

1358
00:48:26,300 --> 00:48:27,920
made by humans. So specifically,

1359
00:48:28,380 --> 00:48:29,039
one human,

1360
00:48:29,340 --> 00:48:32,219
my wife Lacey's mom, Esther Jones, who does

1361
00:48:32,219 --> 00:48:34,239
pottery and artistry and paintings.

1362
00:48:34,594 --> 00:48:37,074
Everyone just really admired these drinking vessels, and

1363
00:48:37,074 --> 00:48:38,114
I did too. And I will tell you,

1364
00:48:38,114 --> 00:48:39,894
Zach, it hurts to give them away

1365
00:48:40,195 --> 00:48:41,929
just a few minutes ago. In fact, we

1366
00:48:41,929 --> 00:48:44,329
just gave one away, to a person who

1367
00:48:44,329 --> 00:48:45,929
made, the winning pitch,

1368
00:48:46,250 --> 00:48:48,250
for this podcast. So we'll be working on

1369
00:48:48,250 --> 00:48:49,929
getting him set up for some equipment, and

1370
00:48:49,929 --> 00:48:51,654
then having him on the show, maybe in

1371
00:48:51,654 --> 00:48:53,815
another few months or so. But we also

1372
00:48:53,815 --> 00:48:55,494
had these, I think I've mentioned these, made

1373
00:48:55,494 --> 00:48:57,275
by humans pins and stickers.

1374
00:48:57,574 --> 00:48:59,659
And part of the quests were these debut

1375
00:48:59,659 --> 00:49:01,500
quests, where we just roll the dice, really

1376
00:49:01,500 --> 00:49:02,000
simple,

1377
00:49:02,460 --> 00:49:04,140
and then give someone just a really quick

1378
00:49:04,140 --> 00:49:06,059
30 second or so assignment to do right

1379
00:49:06,059 --> 00:49:07,864
there at the booth. And in reward, they

1380
00:49:07,864 --> 00:49:09,304
could get a pin or a sticker that

1381
00:49:09,304 --> 00:49:11,085
says, hashtag made by humans.

1382
00:49:11,465 --> 00:49:13,465
And so many people, Zach, when I asked

1383
00:49:13,465 --> 00:49:14,265
them the question,

1384
00:49:14,664 --> 00:49:16,204
this kept coming up actually,

1385
00:49:16,730 --> 00:49:19,049
as if a providential turn of the d

1386
00:49:19,049 --> 00:49:21,469
20. This kept coming up, the question,

1387
00:49:21,849 --> 00:49:23,710
what do you think about the use of

1388
00:49:23,769 --> 00:49:24,989
generative AI

1389
00:49:25,574 --> 00:49:28,295
in creating things? So many people, without missing

1390
00:49:28,295 --> 00:49:29,574
a beat, would look at me and just

1391
00:49:29,574 --> 00:49:31,335
say, I don't like that. I am not

1392
00:49:31,335 --> 00:49:34,269
a fan. I hate that. And so, instant

1393
00:49:34,269 --> 00:49:35,949
award for the pin, you know. There was

1394
00:49:35,949 --> 00:49:37,389
a few people who were saying, you know,

1395
00:49:37,389 --> 00:49:39,150
I have a more nuanced view on that.

1396
00:49:39,150 --> 00:49:40,894
I think it's okay to use that for

1397
00:49:40,894 --> 00:49:43,534
idea generation, and maybe some marketing here and

1398
00:49:43,534 --> 00:49:46,434
there. But I think the consensus is universal

1399
00:49:46,574 --> 00:49:47,635
among our questers,

1400
00:49:48,559 --> 00:49:51,699
that nobody is a fan of using generative

1401
00:49:51,839 --> 00:49:52,339
AI,

1402
00:49:52,960 --> 00:49:53,280
this,

1403
00:49:54,319 --> 00:49:55,139
counterfeit imagination,

1404
00:49:56,074 --> 00:49:58,875
to replace the genuine imagination that God has

1405
00:49:58,875 --> 00:50:00,954
given us. And as you'll go through in

1406
00:50:00,954 --> 00:50:02,394
a moment, I think we heard a lot

1407
00:50:02,394 --> 00:50:04,199
of that also said at, some of the

1408
00:50:04,280 --> 00:50:06,440
panels and keynotes, here at Realm Makers. Yeah.

1409
00:50:06,440 --> 00:50:08,539
Today was really interesting, Steven. We had

1410
00:50:08,920 --> 00:50:09,500
a theology

1411
00:50:09,800 --> 00:50:12,694
of science fiction taught by Steve Laube. Alright.

1412
00:50:12,694 --> 00:50:15,835
My man. Then we had an, artificial intelligence

1413
00:50:16,054 --> 00:50:16,554
panel

1414
00:50:17,094 --> 00:50:19,514
by Alan Arnold, who we've mentioned before.

1415
00:50:19,980 --> 00:50:20,719
And also,

1416
00:50:21,579 --> 00:50:24,140
Alan broken. Alan broken. It was the 2

1417
00:50:24,140 --> 00:50:27,099
Allans. Yeah. And Alan versus Alan. And yeah.

1418
00:50:27,099 --> 00:50:28,619
Except they were really on the same side,

1419
00:50:28,619 --> 00:50:30,434
I think. Yeah. I kept thinking if you

1420
00:50:30,434 --> 00:50:32,914
abbreviate that to AL in certain fonts, it

1421
00:50:32,914 --> 00:50:34,675
looks like AI. Looks like AI. Yes. Well,

1422
00:50:34,675 --> 00:50:36,275
you know, Joshua went up. I think we're

1423
00:50:36,275 --> 00:50:38,434
actually living in a simulation because this is

1424
00:50:38,434 --> 00:50:39,849
too weird. Glitch in the matrix.

1425
00:50:40,869 --> 00:50:41,609
And Alan

1426
00:50:41,909 --> 00:50:42,409
Brokin,

1427
00:50:43,269 --> 00:50:45,269
I think he works for a tech company

1428
00:50:45,269 --> 00:50:47,534
and he works in AI. And so he

1429
00:50:47,534 --> 00:50:50,434
kinda had that behind the scenes technical perspective.

1430
00:50:51,215 --> 00:50:53,295
And then we had a closing keynote from

1431
00:50:53,295 --> 00:50:55,155
Chris Skaggs talking about

1432
00:50:55,630 --> 00:50:57,489
video games. He's with Soma Games.

1433
00:50:57,789 --> 00:51:00,109
So we're a lot of technology talk today,

1434
00:51:00,109 --> 00:51:01,650
which is very interesting. And,

1435
00:51:01,949 --> 00:51:03,630
you know, Steven, I've had so many thoughts

1436
00:51:03,630 --> 00:51:04,449
about this.

1437
00:51:04,755 --> 00:51:06,614
I I wanna throw a curve ball here.

1438
00:51:06,675 --> 00:51:08,195
This will kind of mesh a lot of

1439
00:51:08,195 --> 00:51:10,114
this together. Sure, Zach. It's only after 10

1440
00:51:10,114 --> 00:51:11,635
PM, and they're closing the books for around

1441
00:51:11,635 --> 00:51:14,195
us. So my catching arm feels great. Go

1442
00:51:14,195 --> 00:51:14,659
for it.

1443
00:51:15,539 --> 00:51:17,400
Isn't AI made by humans?

1444
00:51:18,099 --> 00:51:18,599
No.

1445
00:51:18,980 --> 00:51:21,699
No. Because it is, it Let me think

1446
00:51:21,699 --> 00:51:22,440
about that.

1447
00:51:22,914 --> 00:51:24,674
AI, I think, can be started to be

1448
00:51:24,674 --> 00:51:28,054
made by humans, but it's like winding up

1449
00:51:28,514 --> 00:51:29,174
the robot,

1450
00:51:29,875 --> 00:51:32,089
with some sort of, infinite spring on the

1451
00:51:32,089 --> 00:51:33,929
inside and then just goes up off by

1452
00:51:33,929 --> 00:51:35,309
itself crashing into things.

1453
00:51:35,690 --> 00:51:38,250
Because it's programmed, yes, by humans. But the

1454
00:51:38,250 --> 00:51:40,190
information it's collecting and regurgitating,

1455
00:51:40,934 --> 00:51:42,934
that's not made by humans. Yeah. But it

1456
00:51:42,934 --> 00:51:45,014
has the illusion of being made by humans.

1457
00:51:45,014 --> 00:51:47,094
If I call it a counterfeit imagination, not

1458
00:51:47,094 --> 00:51:48,394
that it's a non imagination.

1459
00:51:48,934 --> 00:51:49,755
It's a counterfeit

1460
00:51:50,059 --> 00:51:51,820
that occasionally looks like the real thing, but

1461
00:51:51,820 --> 00:51:53,039
ultimately is not.

1462
00:51:53,340 --> 00:51:55,500
Yeah. Alan Brogan actually had a good way

1463
00:51:55,500 --> 00:51:57,519
of saying this from a technical perspective.

1464
00:51:57,985 --> 00:52:00,545
He said that the large language models, first

1465
00:52:00,545 --> 00:52:02,385
of all, are given the input of, like,

1466
00:52:02,385 --> 00:52:02,885
everything.

1467
00:52:03,425 --> 00:52:06,005
Just all kinds of human knowledge and input.

1468
00:52:06,590 --> 00:52:08,829
A lot of it from the Internet that's,

1469
00:52:09,630 --> 00:52:11,550
not factual and maybe not meant to be

1470
00:52:11,550 --> 00:52:14,210
taken factually, but they, yeah, they don't care.

1471
00:52:14,664 --> 00:52:17,784
And then secondly, it uses an inference engine.

1472
00:52:17,784 --> 00:52:20,684
So it it infers what the truth is

1473
00:52:21,065 --> 00:52:23,404
based on this collection of input

1474
00:52:23,760 --> 00:52:26,500
that, you know, some humans have filtered somewhat.

1475
00:52:27,119 --> 00:52:28,179
But even those,

1476
00:52:28,800 --> 00:52:30,420
filters have some ideological

1477
00:52:30,719 --> 00:52:32,579
base bias to it.

1478
00:52:32,924 --> 00:52:35,324
And so that's why we've we've probably all

1479
00:52:35,324 --> 00:52:35,964
seen these,

1480
00:52:36,605 --> 00:52:38,944
things like, hey, make a joke about Buddha.

1481
00:52:39,005 --> 00:52:40,480
No. I can't do that. Make a joke

1482
00:52:40,480 --> 00:52:42,079
about Mohammed. No. I can't do that. Well,

1483
00:52:42,079 --> 00:52:44,160
certainly not. Make a joke about Moses. No.

1484
00:52:44,160 --> 00:52:45,599
I can't do that. Now make a joke

1485
00:52:45,599 --> 00:52:47,599
about Jesus. Okay. Here you go. Yeah. Here's

1486
00:52:47,599 --> 00:52:49,434
a pretty funny joke about our lord and

1487
00:52:49,434 --> 00:52:52,155
savior. Yeah. Right. Apparently, he can take it,

1488
00:52:52,155 --> 00:52:53,675
but all the rest of these idols got

1489
00:52:53,675 --> 00:52:56,175
really thin skin. Yeah. And that actually,

1490
00:52:56,500 --> 00:52:58,500
you know, Alan talked quite a bit about

1491
00:52:58,500 --> 00:53:00,920
this in his final continuing session today

1492
00:53:01,299 --> 00:53:02,440
that don't underestimate

1493
00:53:02,900 --> 00:53:03,559
the fact

1494
00:53:04,014 --> 00:53:06,514
that the world is at war with Jesus.

1495
00:53:06,894 --> 00:53:09,635
That all the the heaviest opposition

1496
00:53:11,295 --> 00:53:12,275
falls on him.

1497
00:53:12,579 --> 00:53:14,680
You know, the the world hates him.

1498
00:53:15,619 --> 00:53:18,180
It's always hated him, and it's gonna hate

1499
00:53:18,180 --> 00:53:19,000
his followers.

1500
00:53:20,155 --> 00:53:22,155
But hold on to that a moment. And

1501
00:53:22,155 --> 00:53:23,054
what Chris

1502
00:53:23,355 --> 00:53:25,695
talked about in his closing keynote was

1503
00:53:26,394 --> 00:53:28,335
and Alan has mentioned this too is,

1504
00:53:28,800 --> 00:53:29,460
so what?

1505
00:53:30,239 --> 00:53:32,239
So what if the world hates us? Let's

1506
00:53:32,239 --> 00:53:34,800
get out there and make stuff. The world

1507
00:53:34,800 --> 00:53:35,619
doesn't apologize

1508
00:53:36,724 --> 00:53:37,304
for making,

1509
00:53:37,925 --> 00:53:40,025
weirdo versions of Star Wars

1510
00:53:40,324 --> 00:53:42,405
or other things that we've loved all our

1511
00:53:42,405 --> 00:53:45,385
lives and now are being oddly modified.

1512
00:53:45,949 --> 00:53:48,130
They don't apologize for this. They don't apologize

1513
00:53:48,190 --> 00:53:49,250
for their ideological,

1514
00:53:50,589 --> 00:53:53,650
insertions into stories or games or books

1515
00:53:54,125 --> 00:53:56,364
or other kinds of art. So why should

1516
00:53:56,364 --> 00:53:57,025
we apologize?

1517
00:53:57,644 --> 00:54:00,204
We we have in, Chris talked a lot

1518
00:54:00,204 --> 00:54:02,440
in a very theological terms about

1519
00:54:03,639 --> 00:54:06,139
how Jesus has the authority and the power

1520
00:54:06,679 --> 00:54:07,900
over this whole Earth.

1521
00:54:08,519 --> 00:54:10,300
And we need to not be afraid

1522
00:54:10,904 --> 00:54:13,005
of of being creators with him,

1523
00:54:14,264 --> 00:54:14,744
because,

1524
00:54:15,304 --> 00:54:17,085
the whole Earth belongs to him.

1525
00:54:17,545 --> 00:54:19,884
You know, I really enjoyed this, AI panel.

1526
00:54:20,269 --> 00:54:21,949
I thought at first, there were only 2

1527
00:54:21,949 --> 00:54:22,449
panelists.

1528
00:54:22,750 --> 00:54:25,069
2 men both named Alan. Then I realized,

1529
00:54:25,069 --> 00:54:26,690
they're actually very well chosen.

1530
00:54:27,069 --> 00:54:29,150
Because, Alan Arnold has been a Realm Maker

1531
00:54:29,150 --> 00:54:30,594
staple for quite some time. I'd love to

1532
00:54:30,594 --> 00:54:32,835
have him in my podcast sometime, and maybe

1533
00:54:32,835 --> 00:54:35,235
not just recreate that panel, you know, you

1534
00:54:35,235 --> 00:54:37,155
need to go to that event, because it's

1535
00:54:37,155 --> 00:54:38,840
a pretty premium stuff there.

1536
00:54:39,160 --> 00:54:41,820
But his big thing is, the humanization

1537
00:54:42,200 --> 00:54:43,880
of stories, you know, and the biblical world

1538
00:54:43,880 --> 00:54:46,585
view that's behind the creation of stories. And

1539
00:54:46,585 --> 00:54:48,664
I wrote down some quotes from him. He

1540
00:54:48,664 --> 00:54:49,164
said,

1541
00:54:49,465 --> 00:54:52,105
AI doesn't have a soul, but it does

1542
00:54:52,105 --> 00:54:54,820
affect our soul. Mhmm. And then later on,

1543
00:54:54,900 --> 00:54:57,539
when compared with other technologies that people say,

1544
00:54:57,539 --> 00:54:58,039
well,

1545
00:54:58,579 --> 00:55:00,739
they said back then that the electricity and

1546
00:55:00,739 --> 00:55:02,579
the telephone were going to ruin the world,

1547
00:55:02,579 --> 00:55:04,099
so aren't we just being a little too

1548
00:55:04,099 --> 00:55:05,434
resistant to change?

1549
00:55:05,815 --> 00:55:08,474
And then, in response, Alan Arnold said, electricity

1550
00:55:08,694 --> 00:55:11,574
doesn't have a world view. A telephone doesn't

1551
00:55:11,574 --> 00:55:14,719
have a world view. But AI has a

1552
00:55:14,719 --> 00:55:16,960
world view. And I really resonate with that

1553
00:55:16,960 --> 00:55:18,559
world view language, because that's a lot of

1554
00:55:18,559 --> 00:55:20,684
what we do here in fantastical truth. And

1555
00:55:20,684 --> 00:55:23,164
then, Alan, broken, chimed in, chimed in there

1556
00:55:23,164 --> 00:55:24,065
later and said,

1557
00:55:24,364 --> 00:55:24,864
electricity

1558
00:55:25,164 --> 00:55:26,465
didn't give you an

1559
00:55:27,005 --> 00:55:27,744
AI girlfriend.

1560
00:55:28,570 --> 00:55:30,570
So this here, that's a counterfeit. Not just

1561
00:55:30,570 --> 00:55:33,690
a counterfeit imagination, but a counterfeit person that

1562
00:55:33,690 --> 00:55:35,724
fools you into thinking it's real. And in

1563
00:55:35,724 --> 00:55:36,925
that case, you know, they didn't even need

1564
00:55:36,925 --> 00:55:38,525
to go to the trouble of making a

1565
00:55:38,525 --> 00:55:41,005
synthetic skin, you know, synthetic, you know, robo

1566
00:55:41,005 --> 00:55:42,764
body of a girlfriend, which can get even

1567
00:55:42,764 --> 00:55:45,670
more creepy. It's just an app that's talking

1568
00:55:45,670 --> 00:55:46,489
like a girlfriend.

1569
00:55:46,789 --> 00:55:48,630
And if you're fooled by that, then it's

1570
00:55:48,630 --> 00:55:51,030
hacking your imagination, and it almost has this

1571
00:55:51,030 --> 00:55:52,025
spiritual effect,

1572
00:55:52,424 --> 00:55:54,585
Almost like you're talking to some spirits and

1573
00:55:54,585 --> 00:55:56,184
all the warnings we used to hear about

1574
00:55:56,184 --> 00:55:57,944
kids don't play with the Ouija boards. You

1575
00:55:57,944 --> 00:55:59,545
might not like what you're talking to, and

1576
00:55:59,545 --> 00:56:00,525
it might get spooky.

1577
00:56:00,849 --> 00:56:02,530
That's the same effect, I think, from some

1578
00:56:02,530 --> 00:56:04,929
of this AI stuff. But on a happier

1579
00:56:04,929 --> 00:56:05,429
note,

1580
00:56:05,969 --> 00:56:07,349
everybody here at Roll Makers

1581
00:56:07,889 --> 00:56:10,684
is a human, and they're making stories. So

1582
00:56:10,684 --> 00:56:12,525
every story they're making one way or another,

1583
00:56:12,525 --> 00:56:14,784
unless they're generating AI when I'm not looking,

1584
00:56:14,925 --> 00:56:16,764
those stories are made by humans. I mean,

1585
00:56:16,764 --> 00:56:18,750
we talked in the last segment, about some

1586
00:56:18,750 --> 00:56:21,150
of the amazing award winners, that we saw

1587
00:56:21,150 --> 00:56:22,690
last night at the costume banquet.

1588
00:56:23,150 --> 00:56:24,430
Lacey and I, and a bunch of us

1589
00:56:24,430 --> 00:56:26,289
here at the, at Lore Haven

1590
00:56:26,590 --> 00:56:28,445
booth, have also been able to talk with

1591
00:56:28,445 --> 00:56:30,844
so many people and hear their stories. Not

1592
00:56:30,844 --> 00:56:33,405
just about the stories they're creating, the books

1593
00:56:33,405 --> 00:56:35,909
they've written, but the stories of their lives

1594
00:56:36,050 --> 00:56:37,809
that help to drive these stories. And the

1595
00:56:37,809 --> 00:56:40,690
deeply human ways in which Christ has reached

1596
00:56:40,690 --> 00:56:43,005
out to them to help bring them to

1597
00:56:43,005 --> 00:56:44,465
himself, often through,

1598
00:56:45,005 --> 00:56:46,465
the wonderful gift

1599
00:56:46,765 --> 00:56:48,925
that is stories. I was just talking with

1600
00:56:48,925 --> 00:56:51,260
people, some of the, the debut quest stuff

1601
00:56:51,260 --> 00:56:53,920
that we have has been very specifically conversation

1602
00:56:53,980 --> 00:56:55,500
starters like the kind we would have here

1603
00:56:55,500 --> 00:56:57,904
on the podcast. It says, do this in

1604
00:56:57,904 --> 00:57:01,045
30 seconds, and then 5 minutes later,

1605
00:57:01,424 --> 00:57:03,664
we're still talking about it. And so that's

1606
00:57:03,664 --> 00:57:05,780
why, you know, at least I'll be selling

1607
00:57:05,780 --> 00:57:07,780
books next year when my book comes out,

1608
00:57:08,099 --> 00:57:10,180
made by humans, by the way. But that's

1609
00:57:10,180 --> 00:57:12,039
why I just love coming to Realm Makers

1610
00:57:12,180 --> 00:57:13,480
for these conversations,

1611
00:57:14,135 --> 00:57:15,655
to meet people, to sign them up for

1612
00:57:15,655 --> 00:57:17,255
Lore Haven. And we've talked to a lot

1613
00:57:17,255 --> 00:57:19,355
of people, Zach, who've listened to this podcast.

1614
00:57:19,815 --> 00:57:21,335
I should have been writing down all the

1615
00:57:21,335 --> 00:57:23,175
names of the people we've met. Just I

1616
00:57:23,175 --> 00:57:25,480
just wanna say, if you're listening to this,

1617
00:57:25,640 --> 00:57:27,179
week or so after the conference,

1618
00:57:27,480 --> 00:57:29,260
the Realm Makers energy continues.

1619
00:57:29,800 --> 00:57:31,719
Shout out to all of you all. Thank

1620
00:57:31,719 --> 00:57:33,980
you so much for listening to this podcast.

1621
00:57:34,025 --> 00:57:36,105
And I'm looking forward, by the way, to

1622
00:57:36,105 --> 00:57:38,904
the Grand Rapids conference. We talked about that

1623
00:57:38,904 --> 00:57:41,784
with JJ Johnson several episodes ago. It's made

1624
00:57:41,784 --> 00:57:43,469
that announcement official tonight.

1625
00:57:44,030 --> 00:57:46,590
Yeah. I was really excited to that final

1626
00:57:46,590 --> 00:57:49,550
keynote to hear about the Realm Makers Expo

1627
00:57:49,550 --> 00:57:52,130
next year, the partnership with all these other

1628
00:57:52,614 --> 00:57:53,355
Christian creative,

1629
00:57:54,375 --> 00:57:55,434
groups and industries

1630
00:57:55,974 --> 00:57:56,715
and fan,

1631
00:57:57,094 --> 00:57:57,594
fandoms.

1632
00:57:57,974 --> 00:57:58,474
And,

1633
00:57:59,014 --> 00:58:01,414
you know, just this point that Chris Skaggs

1634
00:58:01,414 --> 00:58:02,235
made that

1635
00:58:02,570 --> 00:58:04,590
Christian creativity is on the rise.

1636
00:58:05,210 --> 00:58:06,349
Every category

1637
00:58:06,969 --> 00:58:09,610
of Christian art and media has been blowing

1638
00:58:09,610 --> 00:58:10,110
up

1639
00:58:10,489 --> 00:58:12,030
in recent years decades.

1640
00:58:12,785 --> 00:58:15,125
And I think it's something really unique

1641
00:58:15,505 --> 00:58:16,244
to Christianity.

1642
00:58:17,425 --> 00:58:17,925
Because

1643
00:58:19,025 --> 00:58:22,140
Jesus talks so much about the only way

1644
00:58:22,140 --> 00:58:23,760
to really love God

1645
00:58:24,140 --> 00:58:25,119
is to love

1646
00:58:25,420 --> 00:58:27,739
your fellow Christian because you're part of the

1647
00:58:27,739 --> 00:58:28,720
body of Christ.

1648
00:58:29,025 --> 00:58:30,005
You can't say,

1649
00:58:30,385 --> 00:58:33,284
I love God, but I hate these Christians.

1650
00:58:33,505 --> 00:58:35,985
I love God, but I hate my family.

1651
00:58:35,985 --> 00:58:37,684
You know, that that doesn't work.

1652
00:58:38,190 --> 00:58:39,969
Loving others is so integral,

1653
00:58:40,510 --> 00:58:42,989
and that means a more collaborative approach rather

1654
00:58:42,989 --> 00:58:45,230
than a competitive approach. That's something we've heard

1655
00:58:45,230 --> 00:58:47,324
about a lot at this conference.

1656
00:58:47,945 --> 00:58:50,184
And I I think that, you know, he

1657
00:58:50,184 --> 00:58:53,144
had a very bold vision for what Christian

1658
00:58:53,144 --> 00:58:55,324
creativity could look like in many different

1659
00:58:55,880 --> 00:58:58,299
sectors. Not just books, not just video games,

1660
00:58:58,920 --> 00:59:00,139
music, movies,

1661
00:59:01,559 --> 00:59:04,199
role playing games, all kinds of ways that

1662
00:59:04,199 --> 00:59:05,500
Christians make culture.

1663
00:59:06,505 --> 00:59:07,324
Why shouldn't

1664
00:59:07,704 --> 00:59:09,804
we make the best stuff out there?

1665
00:59:10,184 --> 00:59:12,585
Why should we shy away from it? Why

1666
00:59:12,585 --> 00:59:13,804
should we try to,

1667
00:59:14,239 --> 00:59:15,059
you know,

1668
00:59:15,920 --> 00:59:18,400
put our best foot forward, not just individually,

1669
00:59:18,400 --> 00:59:19,780
but as a community

1670
00:59:20,320 --> 00:59:22,260
and really support one another

1671
00:59:22,755 --> 00:59:23,494
in these

1672
00:59:23,954 --> 00:59:25,315
industries. And and I like how he said,

1673
00:59:25,315 --> 00:59:27,094
look, there's no excuse for mediocrity.

1674
00:59:27,554 --> 00:59:29,094
We're not just saying support

1675
00:59:29,635 --> 00:59:30,855
people because they're Christians.

1676
00:59:31,315 --> 00:59:33,139
Yeah. Yeah. Don't be a support zombie.

1677
00:59:33,599 --> 00:59:34,420
But we are,

1678
00:59:35,039 --> 00:59:37,519
we are expecting the best of one another

1679
00:59:37,519 --> 00:59:40,515
in ourselves. But it's that it's that support

1680
00:59:40,515 --> 00:59:42,055
of one another that enables

1681
00:59:42,914 --> 00:59:43,974
that best effort.

1682
00:59:44,755 --> 00:59:46,675
And I think we're gonna have a really

1683
00:59:46,675 --> 00:59:49,440
unique perspective on things lines like science

1684
00:59:49,820 --> 00:59:51,579
fiction. I love science fiction, Steven, because we

1685
00:59:51,579 --> 00:59:53,099
are living in a science fiction world. I

1686
00:59:53,099 --> 00:59:55,019
mean, when we were growing up watching Star

1687
00:59:55,019 --> 00:59:57,155
Trek, The Next Generation, and they talk to

1688
00:59:57,155 --> 00:59:59,155
the ship and the AI voice or they

1689
00:59:59,155 --> 01:00:00,914
go on the holodeck and they interact with

1690
01:00:00,914 --> 01:00:02,295
these computer generated,

1691
01:00:03,155 --> 01:00:06,179
fake people, We all thought, that'll never happen.

1692
01:00:06,179 --> 01:00:06,839
And now,

1693
01:00:07,300 --> 01:00:08,839
it is basically happening

1694
01:00:09,219 --> 01:00:11,224
and everyone's trying to make sense of that.

1695
01:00:11,224 --> 01:00:12,125
And I think as

1696
01:00:12,744 --> 01:00:14,845
Christians, we can lead those conversations

1697
01:00:15,864 --> 01:00:16,925
and we can also

1698
01:00:17,224 --> 01:00:17,724
portray

1699
01:00:18,184 --> 01:00:19,644
truth about these technologies

1700
01:00:19,945 --> 01:00:20,925
in our stories

1701
01:00:21,920 --> 01:00:23,760
in a way that others can't because they

1702
01:00:23,760 --> 01:00:26,720
are lacking that supernatural perspective that kind of

1703
01:00:26,720 --> 01:00:27,220
oversees

1704
01:00:27,760 --> 01:00:30,244
supersedes all that. Now, I will say, I

1705
01:00:30,405 --> 01:00:32,164
and this is a probably a topic for

1706
01:00:32,164 --> 01:00:33,224
another podcast.

1707
01:00:33,605 --> 01:00:35,545
I do think there can be a danger

1708
01:00:36,085 --> 01:00:39,465
of Christians being anti technology, anti culture,

1709
01:00:40,440 --> 01:00:41,719
just wanting to go back to how the

1710
01:00:41,719 --> 01:00:42,539
things were,

1711
01:00:42,920 --> 01:00:44,760
and in sort of getting into this gnostic

1712
01:00:44,760 --> 01:00:46,679
view that all that matters is the spiritual

1713
01:00:46,679 --> 01:00:49,125
life. Get rid of all your wires and

1714
01:00:49,125 --> 01:00:50,664
your code and all your devices.

1715
01:00:51,925 --> 01:00:53,224
Now I think, again,

1716
01:00:53,525 --> 01:00:55,545
we can offer wisdom to others

1717
01:00:55,920 --> 01:00:57,780
and the wise way to use things,

1718
01:00:58,079 --> 01:01:00,400
the boundaries. And I I like how, I

1719
01:01:00,400 --> 01:01:01,380
think it was Alan.

1720
01:01:02,160 --> 01:01:04,000
Which one? Yeah. There you go. There's Alan.

1721
01:01:04,079 --> 01:01:06,125
Named Alan. 1 of the Allans. You can

1722
01:01:06,125 --> 01:01:07,324
take that to the bank. Yeah. And I

1723
01:01:07,324 --> 01:01:09,324
think it was Alan Brogan that said, if

1724
01:01:09,324 --> 01:01:10,684
you look at the history of the Dust

1725
01:01:10,684 --> 01:01:11,184
Bowl,

1726
01:01:11,485 --> 01:01:13,420
what happened was That was yeah. Yeah. Was

1727
01:01:13,420 --> 01:01:16,320
it there were these sharecroppers on these large

1728
01:01:16,539 --> 01:01:17,039
farmlands,

1729
01:01:17,579 --> 01:01:18,300
and then,

1730
01:01:18,780 --> 01:01:21,099
you know, automation came around. The the the

1731
01:01:21,099 --> 01:01:23,484
original version of it, like tractors. And all

1732
01:01:23,484 --> 01:01:24,144
of a sudden,

1733
01:01:24,844 --> 01:01:25,664
these farms,

1734
01:01:26,045 --> 01:01:28,144
these big farm owners didn't need the sharecroppers.

1735
01:01:28,525 --> 01:01:30,764
They basically got rid of them. They used

1736
01:01:30,764 --> 01:01:32,464
all this automation to just

1737
01:01:32,829 --> 01:01:35,070
plow plow plow, and then they ruined the

1738
01:01:35,070 --> 01:01:35,570
land.

1739
01:01:36,030 --> 01:01:38,349
And it because of the ways they did

1740
01:01:38,349 --> 01:01:40,429
it, it created this dust bowl. So then

1741
01:01:40,429 --> 01:01:41,409
what did they do?

1742
01:01:41,934 --> 01:01:44,594
They surrounded their farmlands with hedges.

1743
01:01:45,775 --> 01:01:47,054
And I think this is you know, we

1744
01:01:47,054 --> 01:01:49,295
all joke about pray for hedges of protection

1745
01:01:49,295 --> 01:01:52,429
or whatever. It's a big Christian culture joke,

1746
01:01:52,429 --> 01:01:55,362
but there's something to that. Christians understand the

1747
01:01:55,362 --> 01:01:58,295
dangers of things, I think, a little more

1748
01:01:58,775 --> 01:01:59,275
accurately,

1749
01:02:00,214 --> 01:02:02,474
than than the secular world does. And so

1750
01:02:02,775 --> 01:02:03,835
I think as we

1751
01:02:04,454 --> 01:02:06,840
enter into these technological spaces, but also these

1752
01:02:06,840 --> 01:02:07,340
storytelling

1753
01:02:07,800 --> 01:02:09,340
spaces about technology,

1754
01:02:09,960 --> 01:02:12,280
we're gonna have a perspective that I think

1755
01:02:12,280 --> 01:02:13,880
a lot of people are hungry for because

1756
01:02:13,880 --> 01:02:14,780
a lot of people

1757
01:02:15,224 --> 01:02:16,844
are feeling that angst

1758
01:02:17,304 --> 01:02:19,385
when they see their friends getting addicted to

1759
01:02:19,385 --> 01:02:21,005
an AI girlfriend or,

1760
01:02:21,625 --> 01:02:24,510
or or just throwing their whole entire lives

1761
01:02:24,510 --> 01:02:25,809
away to video games.

1762
01:02:26,190 --> 01:02:26,929
And it

1763
01:02:27,309 --> 01:02:29,789
that are designed to addict people, that aren't

1764
01:02:29,789 --> 01:02:30,289
designed

1765
01:02:30,934 --> 01:02:32,775
to bring glory to God. Just don't say

1766
01:02:33,014 --> 01:02:34,934
That is the unique opportunity we have as

1767
01:02:34,934 --> 01:02:35,434
Christians.

1768
01:02:35,894 --> 01:02:38,375
Alan Brogan actually wrote an article about this.

1769
01:02:38,375 --> 01:02:39,355
Turns out, Zach,

1770
01:02:39,815 --> 01:02:40,809
several years ago,

1771
01:02:41,210 --> 01:02:44,910
almost 3 years ago exactly, called artificial intelligence

1772
01:02:44,969 --> 01:02:47,469
could never gain a god given conscience.

1773
01:02:47,905 --> 01:02:49,664
He was calling this 3 years ago. It's

1774
01:02:49,664 --> 01:02:52,625
part of his, professional vocation, apparently. So I

1775
01:02:52,625 --> 01:02:54,065
actually asked him in the question and answer.

1776
01:02:54,065 --> 01:02:55,505
I said, hey, Alan, you said that you

1777
01:02:55,505 --> 01:02:56,519
wrote that article. Like,

1778
01:02:57,079 --> 01:02:58,599
yeah. Maybe we need to revisit that and

1779
01:02:58,599 --> 01:03:00,760
get a Snyder cut edition of that article,

1780
01:03:00,760 --> 01:03:01,820
or at least a sequel,

1781
01:03:02,519 --> 01:03:04,539
about what things are looking like now.

1782
01:03:04,875 --> 01:03:07,534
But my favorite, element of this is indeed

1783
01:03:07,594 --> 01:03:09,594
not just, you know, coming across like a

1784
01:03:09,594 --> 01:03:12,474
Luddite or complaining about chat gpt gonna take

1785
01:03:12,474 --> 01:03:14,569
over the world and send all the terminators

1786
01:03:14,710 --> 01:03:17,769
to destroy us. I'm gonna celebrate stories, hashtag

1787
01:03:17,989 --> 01:03:18,969
made by humans.

1788
01:03:19,269 --> 01:03:21,344
And that is a key element of what

1789
01:03:21,425 --> 01:03:23,184
Lorehaven does. And we're gonna have more at

1790
01:03:23,184 --> 01:03:25,684
the site, lord willing, and time available,

1791
01:03:26,385 --> 01:03:29,170
about made by humans, what that's about. And

1792
01:03:29,170 --> 01:03:31,489
speaking of those guardrails or those hedges, like,

1793
01:03:31,489 --> 01:03:34,369
I foresee us putting in even some policies

1794
01:03:34,369 --> 01:03:36,275
about the books we review. You know, I

1795
01:03:36,275 --> 01:03:37,394
don't know if it's as simple as, you

1796
01:03:37,394 --> 01:03:38,914
know, check a box if your cover is

1797
01:03:38,914 --> 01:03:40,514
completely made Check the box if you are

1798
01:03:40,514 --> 01:03:42,755
a human. Exactly. But, you know, could we

1799
01:03:42,755 --> 01:03:44,514
have check a box if your book was

1800
01:03:44,514 --> 01:03:46,539
written by a human? Or, you know, has

1801
01:03:46,539 --> 01:03:48,859
any element of the book been generated? That's

1802
01:03:48,859 --> 01:03:52,059
the important thing. Generated by AI, generative AI.

1803
01:03:52,059 --> 01:03:52,994
And I have to work on the wording

1804
01:03:52,994 --> 01:03:54,275
a little bit. And I'm thinking out loud

1805
01:03:54,275 --> 01:03:55,474
here because it's late and I need to

1806
01:03:55,474 --> 01:03:57,474
stop, and we need to pack up. But

1807
01:03:57,474 --> 01:03:59,474
expect to see some of these, hedges at

1808
01:03:59,474 --> 01:04:01,494
Lorehaven, because, we do have

1809
01:04:01,920 --> 01:04:03,219
a responsibility, I think,

1810
01:04:03,519 --> 01:04:05,380
to curate stories that are made by humans.

1811
01:04:05,840 --> 01:04:08,159
Not to punish anyone who drifts into using

1812
01:04:08,159 --> 01:04:08,900
a chat

1813
01:04:09,280 --> 01:04:12,144
GPT too much or generative content, But we

1814
01:04:12,144 --> 01:04:14,305
do wanna encourage, stories that are made by

1815
01:04:14,305 --> 01:04:17,265
humans. Because humans gotta support humans. The bots

1816
01:04:17,265 --> 01:04:19,105
gotta do bots things, and the humans gotta

1817
01:04:19,105 --> 01:04:20,325
do human things. And,

1818
01:04:20,910 --> 01:04:23,309
the one problem though with Zach, with bots

1819
01:04:23,309 --> 01:04:25,630
is that they never sleep. But we gotta

1820
01:04:25,630 --> 01:04:27,844
sleep. It's getting late. They're closing the book

1821
01:04:27,844 --> 01:04:30,244
store. It has been fantastic. Zach, any closing

1822
01:04:30,244 --> 01:04:31,465
thoughts just personally

1823
01:04:31,925 --> 01:04:33,844
as a human being who's gotten too little

1824
01:04:33,844 --> 01:04:36,085
sleep this weekend? As per usual at Realm

1825
01:04:36,085 --> 01:04:36,570
Makers,

1826
01:04:37,050 --> 01:04:38,730
what have been your thoughts about Realm Makers

1827
01:04:38,730 --> 01:04:39,230
2024?

1828
01:04:40,010 --> 01:04:41,769
Yeah. I may have already said this earlier.

1829
01:04:41,769 --> 01:04:43,210
Like you said, it's kinda late. I can't

1830
01:04:43,210 --> 01:04:45,849
remember. But Realm Makers really feels like a

1831
01:04:45,849 --> 01:04:46,349
refuge.

1832
01:04:47,315 --> 01:04:50,775
It it's where the Christian creators get together

1833
01:04:51,155 --> 01:04:52,535
to support one another,

1834
01:04:53,155 --> 01:04:53,635
to,

1835
01:04:54,035 --> 01:04:55,094
to have fellowship,

1836
01:04:56,250 --> 01:04:56,570
to,

1837
01:04:57,130 --> 01:04:59,789
really invest in one another, invest in relationships.

1838
01:05:00,090 --> 01:05:02,090
I'm seeing people hugging around me as you're

1839
01:05:02,090 --> 01:05:04,110
saying this. Right. I'm getting the illustration.

1840
01:05:04,494 --> 01:05:05,295
Yeah. It is,

1841
01:05:05,614 --> 01:05:06,755
it is so different

1842
01:05:07,214 --> 01:05:09,454
from other kinds of conventions that you can

1843
01:05:09,454 --> 01:05:10,114
go to.

1844
01:05:10,974 --> 01:05:13,280
You're not just coming here to get something.

1845
01:05:13,420 --> 01:05:16,079
You're you're people come here to give something.

1846
01:05:16,940 --> 01:05:18,719
A really funny moment happened earlier

1847
01:05:19,260 --> 01:05:20,880
where I was meeting with,

1848
01:05:21,805 --> 01:05:23,325
I saw one of my friends that came

1849
01:05:23,325 --> 01:05:24,385
with me from Austin,

1850
01:05:24,684 --> 01:05:27,265
Josh, meet an author I know named Lindsay.

1851
01:05:27,644 --> 01:05:29,664
And I said, oh, I'm glad you guys

1852
01:05:29,989 --> 01:05:31,989
met. I I've been wanting to introduce you,

1853
01:05:31,989 --> 01:05:34,389
Lindsay, to my friend Josh. And she's like,

1854
01:05:34,389 --> 01:05:36,469
he's actually my friend, Josh. He was on

1855
01:05:36,469 --> 01:05:38,635
my street team years ago for a book.

1856
01:05:38,715 --> 01:05:40,335
I'm like, oh, what a fun connection.

1857
01:05:40,795 --> 01:05:42,875
And, you know, because we all live in

1858
01:05:42,875 --> 01:05:45,034
different areas, they'd never met in person. And

1859
01:05:45,034 --> 01:05:47,300
this was his first realm makers. And it

1860
01:05:47,300 --> 01:05:49,539
was just those fun kind of connections like

1861
01:05:49,539 --> 01:05:50,039
that

1862
01:05:50,340 --> 01:05:52,599
that where else are you gonna find that?

1863
01:05:53,059 --> 01:05:53,539
It's

1864
01:05:53,945 --> 01:05:55,945
it really shows the importance of meeting in

1865
01:05:55,945 --> 01:05:56,925
person. I mean,

1866
01:05:57,945 --> 01:06:00,985
we've we can't beat that drum enough that

1867
01:06:01,780 --> 01:06:03,380
and I think because we've all felt that

1868
01:06:03,380 --> 01:06:05,380
from the Zoom years that or from the

1869
01:06:05,380 --> 01:06:07,619
COVID years, however you wanna call them. We

1870
01:06:07,619 --> 01:06:08,980
are on Zoom too much. We are on

1871
01:06:08,980 --> 01:06:11,244
email too much. You know? We have Discord,

1872
01:06:11,244 --> 01:06:13,344
but we're on that too much. There's no

1873
01:06:13,644 --> 01:06:14,144
replacing

1874
01:06:15,324 --> 01:06:16,785
that time together because

1875
01:06:17,324 --> 01:06:19,644
God hasn't just made us minds and spirits

1876
01:06:19,644 --> 01:06:21,409
and emotions that are disembodied

1877
01:06:21,949 --> 01:06:22,690
on Internet

1878
01:06:23,230 --> 01:06:26,130
wires. Like, we are people with human bodies.

1879
01:06:26,269 --> 01:06:27,170
We're made by

1880
01:06:27,630 --> 01:06:30,565
our our works are made with human hands,

1881
01:06:30,565 --> 01:06:31,545
you know, human

1882
01:06:32,005 --> 01:06:33,625
eyes and minds. And so,

1883
01:06:34,885 --> 01:06:36,724
it it's one of those ways to really

1884
01:06:36,724 --> 01:06:37,545
guard against

1885
01:06:38,480 --> 01:06:39,920
just kind of getting lost in

1886
01:06:40,719 --> 01:06:42,260
I don't know. Just too many

1887
01:06:43,280 --> 01:06:45,380
just lost in cyberspace, but also

1888
01:06:45,684 --> 01:06:47,704
somehow just lost too much in,

1889
01:06:49,364 --> 01:06:52,565
really disconnected ideas about what Christian storytelling should

1890
01:06:52,565 --> 01:06:53,065
be.

1891
01:06:53,364 --> 01:06:55,304
Because I think there's a lot of, like,

1892
01:06:56,119 --> 01:06:59,179
theoretical debate about what Christian book should be.

1893
01:06:59,880 --> 01:07:01,159
But then you come here and you actually

1894
01:07:01,159 --> 01:07:03,019
meet the authors, you hear their stories

1895
01:07:03,505 --> 01:07:04,885
of what it means to them

1896
01:07:05,344 --> 01:07:07,344
and and why they wrote it in that

1897
01:07:07,344 --> 01:07:07,844
way.

1898
01:07:08,305 --> 01:07:10,224
And, and then what it means to other

1899
01:07:10,224 --> 01:07:10,724
readers.

1900
01:07:11,309 --> 01:07:13,150
And one of the coolest things last night

1901
01:07:13,150 --> 01:07:14,210
at the award ceremony

1902
01:07:14,670 --> 01:07:16,349
was to see 2 of the teens that

1903
01:07:16,349 --> 01:07:18,690
are the teen track dress up as characters

1904
01:07:19,155 --> 01:07:20,914
of the authors that they came here to

1905
01:07:20,914 --> 01:07:21,414
meet.

1906
01:07:22,114 --> 01:07:24,295
Like, what what a fun connection. So,

1907
01:07:24,914 --> 01:07:26,534
to your listener, you know,

1908
01:07:26,909 --> 01:07:28,429
we want you to join us next year

1909
01:07:28,429 --> 01:07:30,590
at the Realm Makers Expo. There's gonna be

1910
01:07:30,590 --> 01:07:32,909
so much more than books there. We're gonna

1911
01:07:32,909 --> 01:07:34,530
be talking about in future episodes.

1912
01:07:35,054 --> 01:07:37,695
Save the date, July 18th to 20th, Grand

1913
01:07:37,695 --> 01:07:38,675
Rapids, Michigan.

1914
01:07:39,214 --> 01:07:40,894
Don't put anything else in the calendar. You

1915
01:07:40,894 --> 01:07:41,954
should meet us there.

1916
01:07:42,360 --> 01:07:44,119
And I will look forward to that event.

1917
01:07:44,119 --> 01:07:46,679
I'm probably already planning for that event. But

1918
01:07:46,679 --> 01:07:48,199
the one thing I've not planned for, Zach,

1919
01:07:48,199 --> 01:07:50,519
is our next episode of fantastical truth. Maybe

1920
01:07:50,519 --> 01:07:51,820
it's in my notes somewhere.

1921
01:07:52,204 --> 01:07:53,644
My eyes are too blurry to see it

1922
01:07:53,644 --> 01:07:56,605
right now. But, faithful listeners, we're so glad

1923
01:07:56,605 --> 01:07:58,925
that you're joining us on this journey, which

1924
01:07:58,925 --> 01:08:00,765
is a part of a world much bigger

1925
01:08:00,765 --> 01:08:03,179
than us. The Realmmakers world, all these other

1926
01:08:03,179 --> 01:08:04,699
groups that we're joining up with for the

1927
01:08:04,699 --> 01:08:07,820
Realmmakers Expo next year, and then ultimately, the

1928
01:08:07,820 --> 01:08:09,965
body of Christ, which even though we have

1929
01:08:09,965 --> 01:08:12,784
so many different skills, and giftings, and vocations,

1930
01:08:13,324 --> 01:08:14,684
and some people may not even know what

1931
01:08:14,684 --> 01:08:16,704
the heck to do with this fantastical storytelling

1932
01:08:16,844 --> 01:08:19,869
idea, It's all one church. It's all one

1933
01:08:19,869 --> 01:08:20,369
body.

1934
01:08:20,989 --> 01:08:23,550
All made by humans, but ultimately, all humans

1935
01:08:23,550 --> 01:08:25,135
are made by God. And that's what I

1936
01:08:25,135 --> 01:08:26,814
wanna keep in mind as we continue to

1937
01:08:26,814 --> 01:08:29,155
seek and find his fantastical truth.