Episode 30: Healing in Conversation: Building Connection, Recovery, and Community
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[00:00:04] Michael Donovan: Welcome to the Evidence Impact podcast, the podcast that brings together academics and their research partners to talk about insights and real-world policy solutions in Pennsylvania and beyond. I'm Michael Donovan, the associate director of the Evidence to Impact Collaborative here at Penn State. In this episode, we'll be discussing the opportunities for creating space for healing, connection, and honest conversation. My guests today are Bob Lamb, director of programs and partnerships at Be a Part of the Conversation, a nonprofit who have been, quote, "Empowering families and communities with resources, connection, and education about substance use since 2011." And we also have Hayden Briggs, licensed clinical social worker, group psychotherapist, and certified practitioner in psychodrama, sociometry, and group psychotherapy. He's also the co-founder of the Philadelphia Area, Psychodrama Institute. Thank you both for being here today. I really appreciate it. Maybe we could just start with a little bit of introduction. Bob, would you mind? 

[00:01:07] Bob Lamb: Yeah. So I'm Bob Lamb. I'm the director of programs and partnerships with Be a Part of the Conversation, as you said. I've been working in the substance use disorder space since about 2018. I was a person in recovery who found a lot of community building efforts through volunteer work I was doing and, decided I wanted to turn it into a career. So had the opportunity to go back to school, get a master's in public health and, turn it into a career. That's been what's led me up to this point, at this point in time.

[00:01:41] Michael Donovan: Excellent and thank you so much for being here to tell your story. Hayden? 

[00:01:48] Haydn Briggs: Yeah it's funny, I was thinking the same thing as I came into the field through the back door, which in this field I think is actually the front door of my own personal experience. And then discovering that there was things to do and help and support for myself and other people. And so same thing as Bob, going back to school and back to school and back to school. And then getting here where we're working with recovery, substance use disorder, mental health, families, couples, groups, just, everything that we can to help get these services out there

[00:02:17] Michael Donovan: Great. Thank you so much and thank you for being here as well for telling your story. So I'd love to build off of that and talk about a bit of your current roles and what your day-to-day work looks like and how your roles are intertwined as well. Maybe Bob, you wanna start us off?

[00:02:37] Bob Lamb: Yeah. So my work with Be a Part of the Conversation really our work is focused on impacting the community in Southeastern Pennsylvania. We do draw people from across the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania and across the country actually, just with the nature of doing stuff virtually. It's afforded the opportunity to reach communities and people who may need support. We do a lot of education in the community about substance use and from prevention to understanding today's drug landscape and drug trends to how to navigate a crisis with a family member impacted by substance use or behavioral health concerns, and also looking at pathways to recovery and family recovery. What organically happened when we were doing these community programs, it was a lot of those concerned family members. And we recognized that a lot of times in the recovery landscape, the family's frequently overlooked. Everybody's very willing and appropriately willing to invest a lot of time and money and effort into supporting a loved one with a substance use disorder, that the family landscape is often overlooked in getting the support and the help that they need. Our organization was founded by Kim Porter, who founded the organization a year into her son's recovery and didn't want other family members to experience what she did and wanted to have them to have the good information find the right treatment center find the support find that community and the ability to talk to other families who are going through it, which she was struggled with at that point in time. So we also do a lot of support for parents specifically, but also siblings now who are navigating their child's substance use disorder regardless of where they're at. My day-to-day is making sure all of those things run smoothly while also continually modifying and looking at the outcomes that are coming out of the work that we're doing. There's been a lot of research into the recovery capital scales and looking at what recovery capital looks like and, there's a lot more talks into what does the family recovery capital look like? And, we're trying to be innovators in that space and having all of these families that we're working with is what brought Hayden on board with us. But that kind of, sums up pretty good what we're doing right now. 

[00:04:48] Michael Donovan: So really broadening the aperture of the support networks that can really improve outcomes. Hayden, you wanna give us a little bit of perspective from the kind of a clinical orientation? 

[00:04:59] Haydn Briggs: Yeah, definitely. So my Day-to-day roles now are I work in private practice doing therapy with individuals, couples, families and groups. Really focused on, family recovery, and recovery falls into it, but in the process of going upstream trying to help, it's all types of work. So trauma recovery work. Family cohesiveness, group cohesiveness, sorta changing systems and broader organizations or communities and things like that. And so I do that in my private practice, and then a training institute which I'm the co-founder of with two of my colleagues and mentors, Dave Moran and Karen Moser, and we kinda do some of that same work, and we provide training and essentially just group work and some of our specific stuff, which is psychodrama sociometry and more formal orientations group psychotherapy. So we do that with clinicians. We do that with organizations that train other clinicians. We do that with treatment centers. We do that with businesses, nonprofits, corporations that sorta want to come in and open things up. How I landed there, through a lot of different roles but really, I always attribute it to, Bob and Kim Porter being part of the conversation. I in, early in my career and even before, discovering that these services existed and being mind-blown, looking back at my own life and thinking, "Wow, what if?" "If only". And then continuing along, we naturally landed together because a lot of my research and work is into kinda how do we make this thing better right now with the constructs that exist. Bob and I, which we'll get into Bob really helped kinda find some of these variables like burden, wellness, really thinking what does it mean to be a family or a person in recovery. And then the other half of that too, which is thinking about what voices are still quiet. What knowledge or ideas are still not in the forefront yet, which, recovery was one of those. Family recovery has been one of those, and sibling, recovery more specifically is one that we're looking at too and sorta just turning over stones and seeing what we can do. And I like what Bob said, innovate really to open this thing up. 

[00:06:53] Michael Donovan: Yeah, really being creative about what gaps exist and where you can, most, most be impactful. I think there's a larger kind of philosophical conversation right now about what authentic human connection is really about, and that underpins both of your works or your efforts. So what do you think that is, it's about at the moment? There's seemingly such a great opportunity to fill a gap right now more than ever and a deeper need, especially as this inflection point around technology and youth development kind of intersect. 

[00:07:25] Haydn Briggs: I could go on a rip for the rest of the hour If you'd let me, but it's really I think to start and just look at the fact that we have systems now in the world, like all types of systems, that are incredibly efficient and effective at routing us away from connection, more than ever. Even getting into a little bit of the way that we have medicalized distress overall, which is important and good, and it's helped us grow in knowledge and progress, but what kind of becomes pervasive is like the connection becomes secondary to what we think something might be for. So a lot of a lot of talking about Family Recovery for example, things might be focused on content delivery, right? Like the banking model of teaching. I deposit information, and then I withdraw it and see how it is versus. And then the connection being secondary, but, Bob will report for sure, and was the one who pointed that out. Like the main thing, if you ask folks what they took away from it, was connecting with people. Like that kinship of common suffering as folks say. And so our, worldwide technology and everything, it's there's the official structure of a room or a group, and then there's the unofficial structure, like the buddy that you lock eyes with on the way in from the parking lot saying, "Okay, maybe this isn't so scary." So how do we capitalize on that and bring that in service of all these things that we're talking about? 

[00:08:45] Bob Lamb: Yeah, and I think for the work that I get to do on a day-to-day basis, it's a lot of that human aspect of it where you see somebody that's brand new, their loved one and their child is entering treatment for the first time, and that fear is physically visible on their face. And their just apprehension and their tension it's all in that body language. And being in a room or on a Zoom meeting with people for an hour to an hour and a half, by the end of that meeting you can physically see them start to relax. And that's so hard to quantify, and what did, what happened in that hour that actually allowed them to relax a little bit and to feel some hope that things don't always have to be that way? I know that was my experience with my recovery journey, where it was like the first time I went into a meeting I was terrified. But by the end of it I felt like I didn't have to live the way I was living. There was some ways out for me. And to get to see that with family members I think it's very meaningful and emotional and it's cool to see.

[00:09:51] Michael Donovan: Yeah. It's really powerful and it's clear that you both are very passionate about it. Going back to that piece about, once you, you break through to people and you can, that's when you can really do the work, when there's a common bond between people, you can really peel back the onion, I wonder, what is the unique contribution that you both see from building authentic human connection when it comes to peer recovery systems or people who have been in recovery themselves? What's about that common lived experience that really translates in your experience?

[00:10:24] Haydn Briggs: Yeah. The first thing I think we can forget because peer recovery has really been a success. One, we can forget that it's been a success for the last 100-ish years and more in different kind of ways. But what comes to mind for me is it was really like an alternative way of healing for people who didn't have any hope. They created their own hope, right? Not just optimism that this will work out. Like optimism that I'm gonna have dinner tonight versus hope I'm gonna cast a line and try to catch a fish to eat. That- that's what just comes up for me is like holding onto that aspect of this is something that does come from grassroots, and it's hard to see that sometimes. And maintaining that is really the most potent piece of it, creating hope where there was none with other people. 

[00:11:06] Bob Lamb: Yeah. I also think that like stigma reduction, that internal self-stigma, is really reduced when you hear somebody sharing what you thought nobody else has ever felt or experienced before. I think that's really the one thing that especially when working with families, the shame and the guilt and the remorse that they feel like they caused this to their loved one. But hearing other families ex- say whether it was I had to reverse an overdose on my child. I had to, bail him out of jail. I had to, visit them in jail." Like all of these things that are so shameful to hear that from another family member immediately reduces that like apprehension that they may feel and that stigma that they may be putting on themselves. 

[00:11:51] Michael Donovan: And kind of riffing on that, that topic that, many of the programs of Be a Part of the Conversation, whether it's the Parent Partnership Program, Family Recovery Course, there's dimensions of it around reducing stigma, creating these conversations a- among disparate groups and partners. I wonder, Bob or Hayden, if you could go into a little more detail on some of the programs that are offered. And and also I wanna make clear that all of the Be a Part of the Conversation programs and services are free to attend, so I do wanna make sure we talk about how is this done? How do you function as a nonprofit, and how do we as a society signal that this work is important? Bob? 

[00:12:33] Bob Lamb: Yeah. So I think the reason we created this space and the reason that, the, our executive director, Kim, like really dove into this organization was based on her own family's experience and never wanting another family to, to have to experience that again. And, I think getting good, up-to-date information into the community is always a challenge. And, we wanted to be that organization that could help support that to, for community members, and really starting it from that grassroots perspective where, it was communities that were concerned about what was going on. And knowing that there was destigmatizing ways to go out and really educating it of the brain disorder that it is that their recovery is possible. I think that's another big piece in that stigma that like once a person develops a substance use disorder, they're gonna be stuck that way forever. And there's a lot of people who can attest differently to that, but then it's also how can you create that family recovery model? And that was the big piece that we saw that was missing. We had all of these parents that their children were still using substances problematically, and they didn't know where to go and where to start. So that organically built off of, we need to have specific support group meetings and, while we don't discourage, any of the 12-step based ones we often recommend Al-Anon or Nar-Anon. Our parent partnership meetings, parents felt a deeper connection when they knew it was another parent and not, whether it was a spouse or an adult child navigating that immediate familial relationship was really impactful for the community of parents who started to stand up these support group meetings every week. And from there we recognized that they needed some more education, so we were able to develop the family recovery course that's peer-led s- as well, but it was clinically informed. We looked at a lot of different worked with a lot of different family therapists, social workers I think some of Hayden's mentors were part of the development of the curriculum. But this is really to help families understand what addiction is, what addiction does to the whole family system, and really putting forward that idea of these are life skills that you can start to add and implement in your life that'll really teach you how to interact with your loved one if they are experiencing those substance use crises. We hear a lot in the recovery space of "You're enabling. You don't set healthy boundaries. Stop being so codependent." But what does that actually look like? And from these peer leaders who facilitate these, they have that lived experience, but we can also put some skills teach some skills to, to let people know these are the ways that I need to love my loved one with a substance use disorder. And that family recovery course, can be that like an introductory to be a part of the conversation, but then we can connect them to that further education with the community programs and then parent partnership meetings. They can have their own recovery continuum completely independent of their child experiencing the substance use issues, which I think is the really cool and unique part of our organization, is like this whole separate recovery continuum that can be as close to their loved one with the substance use issue or as far apart as it needs to be, but it's really And recently we were able to start Once a week, a sibling support group, a sibling partnership meeting. So you know, the goal of the organization ultimately is to be able to look at all of these familiar relationships and be able to support people, in their independent relationship with a family recovery course and the support group meetings, the partnership meetings. Those are getting a little bit more into the goals, but we feel this work is really filling a gap that, is very frequently overlooked. 

[00:16:28] Michael Donovan: I love that and, if there's any outcome w- whatsoever it's still strengthening the family unit, which is still going to be a great positive direction towards human flourishing independently or as a community. There's really no downside to this kind of knowledge transfer to, to families and different groups. Thank you so much. And I do wanna talk more about the funding opportunities in the broader American context and landscape from the federal environment as well from, and from state, but maybe we'll go into a little bit-- I do wanna hear from Hayden a bit on some of the methods that I teased in, in the description of your work around psychodrama, sociometry, and particularly experimental therapy. I'd love to hear a little bit more about, especially for those of our audience who are not as familiar what do these modalities do and how do they, how are they different from maybe other forms of therapy that others may be more, more aware of?

[00:17:25] Haydn Briggs: Yeah. Good question. I think, most often when I talk to people about what all those are, they go, "Oh yeah, I've done that. Oh yeah, is that this?" And really in Europe and outside of the United States, people are much more familiar. It really is that triadic system of psychodrama, sociometry, and group psychotherapy is, oh, more than 100 years old, started in Vienna. Has There's a big diaspora essentially of people who practice this. And it's become so embedded in the way that people facilitate groups that they don't have the words for it. So especially in Europe, organizational consulting and development, they're doing a lot of it. The United States, there's a little bit of a wave toward that in clinical work. What it is it's basically the use of any action methods in group. So I would have to have an hour to explain it verbally. If I showed you, you'd get it quickly, but you can think of anything, if I've ever talked to an empty chair, if I've ever written a letter to someone who's not in the room. If I ever did anything where I'm standing up and moving around in a group, and that sort of work. If I ever did anything with my body embodied in any sort of clinical, therapeutic, or group space. If I was ever invited to, make some of these hypothetical choices in a group of who would you most want to, be your vice president if you were in charge of the United States of America, all these things. And what it is, put succinctly, is, sociometry is the measurement of group dynamics, and then psychodrama is putting those in action to help them flow and help a group work together better. And then group psychotherapy is that context of what we've already talked about, like universality kinship, et cetera. And my goal always with it is for no one to know that's what they're doing when they're doing it, and I think that's been accomplished very often in a lot of the groups that I facilitate, some of the work that we've done together Bob and I too. To the audience, I'd say go try it to find out what it is the best thing.

[00:19:17] Michael Donovan: It's an incredibly succinct description and summation of a lot of complex topics there, so thank you. That's amazing. Yeah. It does really make sense that, that opportunity for perspective-taking which I think is also so deep and rich to building empathy and compassion in different dimensions as well. So i- if we're thinking about some of the kind of lessons that can be learned in a clinical setting, what are some things that could be done in in a, to a non-professional to manifest some of these skills into their own lives? I don't know if there's anything on that you might think about. What's a toolkit almost to build off of? 

[00:19:51] Haydn Briggs: Sometimes I think if I were to put it as succinctly as possible, it's in your head going, "Okay, what would I feel and think if I were in their shoes," right? And what would I do in a role reversal? And often I invite people to take that further is whether it be in writing or actually speech doing it going to write a letter to Hayden from the perspective of Bob, and exploring it. Because without getting into, the jargon and the neuroscience of it, there's a different process and a different type of learning that happens when we engage in these things in action versus not. And then also being curious about one, pushing ourselves. I think this is important right now in the world, pushing ourselves to be in groups, to stay in groups, to work together in groups, and to be curious about what our role in groups are, whether that's our family group, a peer recovery group, et cetera.

[00:20:43] Michael Donovan: Yeah, I feel that all the time that we have somehow gotten past and forgotten about the collective trauma of the last few years around COVID and the separatedness that, that really happened and has pervaded and become routinized in many people's lives. But we are social animals so having that connectedness is really vital, whether it's with your birth family or your chosen family or other connections. So I wonder how organizations can lean into this more. So we think about, from the different programs that Bob mentioned that his organization is able to offer how could this be templated out into organizations or put into formal learning environments in schools? Are dimensions of this put into curricula already in Pennsylvania's context? Is this-- These are skills learned in drama as well, I'd imagine as well. That's a, an exercise in deep empathy effectively. I don't know if there's any thoughts on that, about organizational application. 

[00:21:45] Haydn Briggs: Yeah, definitely. I think I'd like to see more, but it's really on a really large scale. If you ever see the word social network analysis, in a lot of leadership scholarship and a lot of organizational scholarship, that's really using these methods. A lot of the really innovative kind of methods of leadership. Some folks who are stripping away all titles in an organization. Some folks... Even Nike was an example that pulled the whole organization for shoe silhouette ideas at different times, and ended up going with one thought of by someone in the custodial staff, right? More s- more specifically, bringing it smaller, even with Be A Part Of The Conversation, we've...I've trained some of the some of the peer facilitators, not necessarily to use these methods exactly, but to embody them and be in them, to understand what it feels like to, to I think be in a group and work in a group rather than what can happen in any group where I'm having an individual conversation with 11 people, with an audience, that sort of thing. There are some, I wish I had the exact thing, but there was a school in Colorado some years ago that trialed a kind of a group psychotherapy adjacent almost eighth period, right? In one of their flex periods, and it became overwhelmingly full. This was pre-COVID. Everybody liked it, just the ability to sit and process with each other. My experience in training folks is I'll teach clinicians or frontline staff how to do these things, and that's great, but where the change really happens is when the leaders and stuff and the leadership team engage in some of this work together with us. The kind of downstream transformation that, that follows that is, is amazing without even the majority of an organization having to learn how to do these things. But, principles of a- all the fancy leadership scholarship language is emergence, chaotic and complex systems, that sort of thing. But really in our language, in Psychodramas, is bringing spontaneity into groups and people with that idea that they have an innate ability to move toward healing when they have the right environment and the right holding space, which I think that's been the amazing miracle we've seen with Be A Part Of The Conversation. Not just the groups, but even, doing some of the prevention work where it's just somebody presenting to an audience. Even in that space, those people sitting in those chairs in that space, moving toward what they need in recovery being what Bob said too. Instead of "Here's the prohibitive list of things that you don't do." Instead, this affirming list of things that you can do and grow into and have and enjoy as a part of your recovery. 

[00:24:13] Michael Donovan: It's such an interesting point how there's often so much good work in one discipline or field or sector, and it's just called a different different nomenclature, different kind of terms. And not always, it's interesting to think about how this work is effectively in, in business schools, for example- ... but in, in a different description. Yeah. Bob, I'd love to talk a little bit about, how the organization in particular, and then broadly the field is existing in, coping in an environment of always resource scarcity, but also potentially even ups and downs of federal support, whether it's from coming from the substance abuse and mental health kind of environment from the Department of Health and Human Services. Thinking also about how that goes down to the Pennsylvania context with the Department of Drug and Alcohol Programs. And then, how that works into philanthropy and foundation support and how does this, how is this work funded effectively? 

[00:25:15] Bob Lamb: I think that's like the million-dollar question, no pun intended for every nonprofit that's working in the behavioral health space right now. For us, a lot of our funding comes from the Department of Drug and Alcohol Programs in Pennsylvania to the counties the single county authorities. And the scope of work that we're doing, can fall under the recovery and treatment side of things or the prevention side of things. I think you talk to any prevention provider in the area and, there's definitely there is money for prevention, but not enough to really, do work in the most effective way to reach the most possible people. So you know, w- for every $1 prevention, there's $3 spent on recovery and treatment. I know if we're investing in good prevention we hopefully wouldn't need that recovery and treatment money in the long run. But, that's just a long way of saying, there's definitely could be more funding sent in the-- spent in the prevention world. In the treatment side of things, one of the, because Pennsylvania was so impacted by the opioid epidemic, opioid settlement funds have allowed some innovation funding some special projects. So we've seen a lot of really good programs developed, implemented researched. And 18 years of funding was a great prospect to have before the potential, cuts as a direct result of some of the federal changes. I think every person has gotten that works in this space that, that looks at budgets is really gonna be looking at how the federal structure is gonna be going with block grants and all of the ways funding's gonna come out. We've really Knowing that's in the pipeline of, potential funding cuts and opportunities for our county funders how can we look into other ways of raising money? We really wanna keep our services free because we recognize how much time-- how many times families will invest in their loved one's recovery before they'll invest in their own. We're trying to be creative with our philanthropy and, reach out to foundations, think tanks other groups who are looking for, true innovation. And we really think what Be a Part of the Conversation is developing and implementing is, there's not a lot of programs like us in the US. I think that's why we've been able to draw people from our family recovery course from, over, I think we're up to 30 states and three countries. So you know, we know what we're doing i- is unique and impactful. We're, always looking for money and different ways to get it and different ways to, build those connections that allow us to do that.

[00:27:51] Michael Donovan: Sure. And building that prevention infrastructure can divert such worst outcomes that are extremely costly to both human suffering and public funds. I'll pivot away from the rather bleak conversation around funding or the lack of it sometimes. And I wanna try to think about from both of your perspectives, what are some things that give you hope? We talked to Hayden earlier about hope and how this builds this, these models can build and showcase how someone who may be hopeless can find it. What makes you hopeful for the future?

[00:28:29] Bob Lamb: Yeah, I think for me the biggest thing that I see is the dedication and passion from people that I get to work with on a day-to-day basis. Whether it's people who work for Be a Part of the Conversation, whether it's the communities that we partner with whether it's, the clinicians that are doing, the frontline work with the people in recovery like Hayden and our volunteers. We have about 60 volunteers who lead our support groups that, they have day jobs and they care so much about helping the next family come along this process, it's like once or twice a week I have a meeting with somebody that just re- just reinvigorates and re-energizes me to keep continuing to do the work because, there's so much passion and concern and care for people who, for people with substance use disorders and then people who love people with substance use disorders. There's a lot of care and concern and general wellbeing out there. I think that's really what, what gives me hope in this field.

[00:29:32] Haydn Briggs: Yeah, ditto. And for me, my perspective is I'm working with the people going through this, and I also, especially the last couple years, have been able to go all around the country working with different teams and clinicians, and seeing regional differences, but seeing regional similarities, which is that what I feel, even though it's just anecdotal, is the tide turning toward more innovative approaches, group approaches. How to make a broader impact, even for folks who work with individuals. Curiosity toward that. If you look, and you do have to look, you can find some affirming data. Like the relationship with opioids, for example, is very different than it was 10 years ago, five years ago. There's a bunch of new horrible stuff, too, but noticing the change and in that, with everything with technology, I think w- the scary stuff also highlights the intangible, which is that people connecting with people is we can't make that more efficient than it is. We can't we can't squeeze value out of it and not do the thing. And so people are investing more time and energy into that. Even, it's a bit of a tangent, but the National Institute of Mental Health and Thomas Insely when he finished his tenure, said, "We've dot done a bunch of really cool research. We have a bunch of new neurobiological research." He was responsible for a lot of the investment in that versus other types of clinical psychotherapy research, yet we haven't moved the needle on suicidality, hospitalization, a lot of these issues that Bob and I are talking about. That can feel bleak, but it's really hopeful 'cause it's saying, "Okay, we have this whole new body of stuff. Let's get to work in a new way." And that's what I see, is everybody getting to work in a new way.

[00:31:12] Michael Donovan: I love that. Thank you both, and really remarkable work. I, I do wanna also give you the moment to speak out directly to any listeners who themselves are struggling or their families or they're a partner of a broader patchwork quilt of a network supporting them. What would you want them to remember from this conversation today?

[00:31:37] Bob Lamb: I think for me, the one thing that, comes along a lot with that stigma side of things is, recovery is probable. When you look at the National Survey on Drug Use and Health m- so many people identify as being in recovery from a substance use disorder, and that doesn't look the same for every individual. There are so many different pathways and ways to find and sustain recovery. And it's really individualized to the people. What worked for me isn't gonna work for somebody else. Also that the family can heal. I think that's the big component is there can be a whole family system that finds recovery. It's not up to that one individual that's experiencing the substance use issue that the whole family can get better from it

[00:32:20] Haydn Briggs: Yeah, I think, for me, the thing I repeat all the time is shame and denial are features, not bugs, not side effects of substance use disorder and all of its associated problems, shame is a feature, and it keeps us from looking and thinking about what's possible for ourselves and really what Bob said, too, healing and recovery are contagious. What's the cute old saying? It's like a smile is the only thing you can keep and give away, and it's the same thing for recovery, right? Investing in your own recovery in the way that we're talking about here, in affirming ways, not just following a list of things I can't do anymore just spreads that healing outward, and you'll be amazed when you see it

[00:33:03] Michael Donovan: And I will say that, for our listening audience, we will certainly be providing resources in our show notes. But is there anywhere that you'd wanna direct our listeners today in terms of, the Be a Part of Conversation website or other areas to explore? Trusted resources you have off the top of your heads?

[00:33:24] Bob Lamb: So Be a Part of the Conversation's website has been, it has about 130 different pages on it with all topics related to substance use, from finding and accessing treatment to topics related to substance use disorder. So our website is conversation.zone. That'll also link to our community programs, our parent partnership meetings, our sibling partnership meetings, and our family recovery course. So We got a lot of stuff on our website that can You can go down a rabbit hole on our website that'll get you to, to other of our vested, community partners and things like that 

[00:33:59] Haydn Briggs: Yeah, I was gonna say, especially as a practicing clinician, I'm just like sending out these be a part of the conversation pamphlets and things all the time. It's a great resource, and it points to even more great resources for these types of things. For the type, the experiential work stuff in general, there's our training institute, Philadelphia Area Psychodrama Institute, philapsychodrama.com. There's a broader organization that's really international called the American Society for Group Psychotherapy and Psychodrama, which points towards a lot of these things, curricula, et cetera.

[00:34:29] Michael Donovan: Excellent, and we'll be sure to include links in our show notes there for those who would like to dig a little deeper. Wonderful. I would like to give both of you the opportunity for any closing or concluding thoughts, any things that we w- did not cover in our brief time today together. While you're thinking of that, I will just convey my thanks to you both for your time today, but also all the important work that you do in your careers and in your lives. And you're really spreading such important work across the world. So thank you for that. Anything come top of mind that we forgot or would like to underline?

[00:35:07] Bob Lamb: I think just highlighting that, family recovery is part of the recovery continuum. And there's, be a part of the conversation. There's Al-Anon, there's Nar-Anon, there's a lot of community-based resources that are free for families to find their own community. I know when I went through my recovery journey, my family didn't have that community that I had. Recognizing that, that'll ultimately improve the outcomes for the family system just highlighting that

[00:35:35] Haydn Briggs: Yeah, and I would just say thank you for having us, and for everyone listening, thank you for listening. You just exposed yourself to a dose of recovery by listening, and that's not affirming the power of Bob and myself and Michael, but rather just being in dialogue with this stuff helps move the needle forward for all of us 

[00:35:56] Michael Donovan: Absolutely. Couldn't agree more. It moves forward the de-stigmatization of this in the broader society. Sure. Thank you both again for this rich conversation. As I mentioned, we'll have resources and links to topics and sites , to dig into. My guests today were Bob Lamb, director of programs and partnerships at Be a Part of the Conversation, and Hayden Briggs, licensed clinical social worker, group psychotherapist, and certified practitioner in psychodrama, sociometry, and group psychotherapy, as well as the co-founder of the Philadelphia Area Psychodrama Institute. Thank you both so much for the time and for the important work that you do. 

[00:36:38] Bob Lamb: Thank you.