1
00:00:07,455 --> 00:00:08,651
Welcome to Tech decipher.

2
00:00:09,303 --> 00:00:11,215
We bring you the entrepreneur and investor views

3
00:00:11,215 --> 00:00:13,287
on Big tech, Vc and start up news,

4
00:00:13,765 --> 00:00:16,155
opinion pieces and research. We decipher for their

5
00:00:16,155 --> 00:00:18,465
meaning and add inside knowledge and context.

6
00:00:19,117 --> 00:00:21,027
We also share our insights and experience with

7
00:00:21,027 --> 00:00:23,118
you with unique nuggets and lessons

8
00:00:23,573 --> 00:00:25,482
that we learned the hard way. No smoke

9
00:00:25,482 --> 00:00:26,039
and mirrors,

10
00:00:26,835 --> 00:00:27,391
no bs.

11
00:00:28,043 --> 00:00:30,511
Being nerds, we also discuss gadgets and pop

12
00:00:30,511 --> 00:00:33,377
culture news. Hi. I'm your c host nun

13
00:00:33,377 --> 00:00:33,457
self,

14
00:00:34,492 --> 00:00:35,947
Entrepreneur and venture capitalists

15
00:00:36,575 --> 00:00:39,118
c founder and managing partner at Chameleon and

16
00:00:39,197 --> 00:00:39,912
Strive capital.

17
00:00:40,548 --> 00:00:42,558
And I am C, Bert.

18
00:00:43,885 --> 00:00:44,624
In His

19
00:00:44,934 --> 00:00:45,973
at Red River West,

20
00:00:46,772 --> 00:00:49,967
C founder of App Annie. We have both

21
00:00:49,967 --> 00:00:52,799
been in tech for almost 25 years. N

22
00:00:53,018 --> 00:00:54,617
is based in Silicon Valley,

23
00:00:55,176 --> 00:00:57,674
while I am based in the greater Seattle.

24
00:00:58,293 --> 00:01:01,010
Having previously worked and lived in Europe and

25
00:01:01,170 --> 00:01:02,783
Asia. We stack this decipher,

26
00:01:03,502 --> 00:01:06,379
discover how the best entrepreneur speech, how investor

27
00:01:06,379 --> 00:01:08,696
think, and what are the deep trends underlying

28
00:01:08,696 --> 00:01:11,206
the tech industry? You can check the latest

29
00:01:11,265 --> 00:01:14,535
on our website, the s dot com. You

30
00:01:14,535 --> 00:01:17,109
can also connect with us on Twitter at

31
00:01:17,167 --> 00:01:19,400
bi schmidt and at g pedro.

32
00:01:19,893 --> 00:01:21,800
If you enjoyed the show, do us a

33
00:01:21,800 --> 00:01:22,038
favor.

34
00:01:22,992 --> 00:01:24,978
Subscribe, give us 5 stars and or leave

35
00:01:24,978 --> 00:01:27,441
a review on Apple podcast app or your

36
00:01:27,441 --> 00:01:27,998
favorite app.

37
00:01:28,649 --> 00:01:31,201
This will help other people discover tech decipher.

38
00:01:34,948 --> 00:01:37,601
Hi. Welcome to a p episode 55

39
00:01:37,914 --> 00:01:39,193
of take this decipher.

40
00:01:39,992 --> 00:01:43,129
In this episode, we will talk about open

41
00:01:43,828 --> 00:01:44,328
versus

42
00:01:44,707 --> 00:01:45,207
closed

43
00:01:45,746 --> 00:01:46,646
and proprietary

44
00:01:47,757 --> 00:01:49,288
what does it mean in technology

45
00:01:49,819 --> 00:01:51,827
to be an open or closed

46
00:01:52,358 --> 00:01:55,214
application? You have already about open source, I

47
00:01:55,214 --> 00:01:55,452
guess,

48
00:01:56,023 --> 00:01:58,245
and there is a saying in silicon valley.

49
00:01:58,563 --> 00:01:59,515
If you are first,

50
00:02:00,547 --> 00:02:01,182
you close it.

51
00:02:02,055 --> 00:02:04,278
If you come late, you open it.

52
00:02:05,010 --> 00:02:07,650
Basically, it means that you might have an

53
00:02:07,650 --> 00:02:09,650
advantage being the first player in a field,

54
00:02:10,290 --> 00:02:12,849
you might afford to be able to close

55
00:02:12,849 --> 00:02:15,502
source your product, your software, your application.

56
00:02:16,701 --> 00:02:18,299
If you're led to the game led to

57
00:02:18,299 --> 00:02:19,119
the party

58
00:02:19,498 --> 00:02:21,915
and it's difficult to fight the leading

59
00:02:22,469 --> 00:02:23,528
player in the marketplace,

60
00:02:24,384 --> 00:02:27,119
maybe an alternative strategy in order to gain

61
00:02:27,417 --> 00:02:27,917
distribution

62
00:02:28,375 --> 00:02:31,421
is to open source your product. There's been

63
00:02:31,421 --> 00:02:34,365
many examples of this through converting history.

64
00:02:34,843 --> 00:02:37,230
And today, we are going to talk more

65
00:02:37,230 --> 00:02:39,061
about all of this. Good to see you

66
00:02:39,061 --> 00:02:39,697
you know today.

67
00:02:40,508 --> 00:02:42,100
Nice to see you as well. Shall we

68
00:02:42,100 --> 00:02:44,806
start with history, the history of open source.

69
00:02:45,363 --> 00:02:45,863
And

70
00:02:46,318 --> 00:02:49,501
well, it apparently the first known system that

71
00:02:49,501 --> 00:02:52,406
was supposedly open source or in public domain

72
00:02:52,703 --> 00:02:54,217
was in the fifties, the da a 2

73
00:02:54,217 --> 00:02:55,571
system in 19 53,

74
00:02:56,049 --> 00:02:59,236
and basically, it was a compile.

75
00:02:59,808 --> 00:03:02,768
So compile is what turns source code into

76
00:03:02,823 --> 00:03:04,727
binary code that gets run by a machine.

77
00:03:04,965 --> 00:03:06,655
It's what allows you to run apps

78
00:03:06,964 --> 00:03:08,640
on, for example, your phone and things like

79
00:03:08,640 --> 00:03:10,236
that to the compile. I know some of

80
00:03:10,236 --> 00:03:12,492
you that are, like, I'm a computer engineer

81
00:03:12,550 --> 00:03:13,050
and

82
00:03:13,428 --> 00:03:14,919
is that a compile really or is it

83
00:03:15,199 --> 00:03:16,953
interpreter. Let's forget that a second. Let's call

84
00:03:16,953 --> 00:03:18,708
it the compile just to make life easier

85
00:03:18,708 --> 00:03:20,941
for everyone involved. So that was the first

86
00:03:20,941 --> 00:03:23,174
public domain open source thing that we know.

87
00:03:23,493 --> 00:03:26,055
And then there isn't much. Fifties sixties seventies,

88
00:03:26,293 --> 00:03:28,358
there isn't much. Obviously, there was the summer

89
00:03:28,358 --> 00:03:29,788
of love at some point in late sixties,

90
00:03:29,947 --> 00:03:32,171
and maybe through the seventies people started thinking

91
00:03:32,171 --> 00:03:32,671
through

92
00:03:33,538 --> 00:03:35,447
shouldn't we be doing things that are more

93
00:03:35,447 --> 00:03:38,311
open, and 1 of such people was a

94
00:03:38,311 --> 00:03:39,288
gentleman called

95
00:03:39,823 --> 00:03:40,323
Richard

96
00:03:40,793 --> 00:03:43,106
s who's still alive, so you shout out

97
00:03:43,106 --> 00:03:44,701
to him. And he was part of this...

98
00:03:44,940 --> 00:03:47,412
Let's call it hacker community from those days

99
00:03:47,412 --> 00:03:49,406
and was doing some interesting things around it

100
00:03:49,406 --> 00:03:51,439
and there was this belief that

101
00:03:51,740 --> 00:03:54,219
source code shouldn't be closed that if you

102
00:03:54,219 --> 00:03:55,520
were monetizing something

103
00:03:56,219 --> 00:03:58,648
quite a lot and you're putting even

104
00:03:59,020 --> 00:04:00,845
certain things in your code that if, for

105
00:04:00,845 --> 00:04:03,011
example, you were using unlicensed

106
00:04:03,860 --> 00:04:05,209
application, so unlicensed binary.

107
00:04:05,939 --> 00:04:07,692
That you would run into trouble and have

108
00:04:07,692 --> 00:04:09,605
other issues. And so he he manifested himself

109
00:04:09,605 --> 00:04:10,663
against it and

110
00:04:11,119 --> 00:04:13,373
came up with something that we're still

111
00:04:14,003 --> 00:04:16,629
using till this day. The G u or

112
00:04:16,629 --> 00:04:18,857
the new project and new Manifesto.

113
00:04:19,255 --> 00:04:20,926
Now, new, this is the funny part.

114
00:04:21,578 --> 00:04:22,851
Some of you will find it funny. Others

115
00:04:22,851 --> 00:04:25,396
might not stands for news, not uni,

116
00:04:26,669 --> 00:04:29,309
which is a recur K? So you have

117
00:04:29,309 --> 00:04:30,286
to appreciate

118
00:04:31,774 --> 00:04:33,604
if for a scientist and compute engineers coming

119
00:04:33,604 --> 00:04:35,433
up with things like that. But it's new

120
00:04:35,433 --> 00:04:37,914
is news, not Uni. Because at that time,

121
00:04:38,073 --> 00:04:40,221
Uni was a proprietary or it'd been made

122
00:04:40,221 --> 00:04:42,449
over time a proprietary platform by a couple

123
00:04:42,449 --> 00:04:43,563
of big companies in the market.

124
00:04:44,294 --> 00:04:45,728
And there was this view that they wanted

125
00:04:45,728 --> 00:04:48,117
to in some ways get out of that

126
00:04:48,117 --> 00:04:50,847
space. So so The new project was born

127
00:04:50,904 --> 00:04:52,736
and we till this day have,

128
00:04:53,309 --> 00:04:56,579
what we call new general public licenses, Gp.

129
00:04:56,739 --> 00:04:58,493
Right? You probably have heard of about this.

130
00:04:59,211 --> 00:05:01,684
Now it's in the nineties early nineties that

131
00:05:01,684 --> 00:05:03,061
we have the biggest movement

132
00:05:03,374 --> 00:05:04,671
I think in the history

133
00:05:05,207 --> 00:05:07,280
of open source with a gentleman called Lin

134
00:05:07,440 --> 00:05:07,918
To,

135
00:05:08,636 --> 00:05:11,288
I probably butcher his name. Lin To.

136
00:05:11,999 --> 00:05:13,773
Something like that, pushed

137
00:05:14,229 --> 00:05:15,901
a version of a kernel that he had.

138
00:05:16,220 --> 00:05:18,233
Actually, the first version he had was not

139
00:05:18,291 --> 00:05:19,804
open to the public, but then he released

140
00:05:19,804 --> 00:05:20,441
it to the public.

141
00:05:21,014 --> 00:05:24,925
Under a new license, and that operating system

142
00:05:24,925 --> 00:05:26,202
was called Linux.

143
00:05:27,719 --> 00:05:29,395
And the rest is for of history. Linux

144
00:05:29,395 --> 00:05:31,243
has led to many other things after that.

145
00:05:31,482 --> 00:05:34,031
It's a wildly used operating system globally,

146
00:05:34,589 --> 00:05:35,943
in particularly on the server side,

147
00:05:36,500 --> 00:05:38,890
with many variations and we're off the races.

148
00:05:39,224 --> 00:05:41,614
So that's the shortened version of how we

149
00:05:41,614 --> 00:05:43,605
got here in some ways, and then there's

150
00:05:43,605 --> 00:05:44,959
a lot of cool things that happen afterwards,

151
00:05:45,039 --> 00:05:48,478
but that's, like, seminal moments are new and

152
00:05:48,558 --> 00:05:49,991
Linux. That's the 2 things you need to

153
00:05:49,991 --> 00:05:52,936
remember. Yeah. And if I may say, Linux

154
00:05:52,936 --> 00:05:54,846
is ready the Kernel, and then you have

155
00:05:54,846 --> 00:05:58,380
by extension Linux your operating system or actually

156
00:05:58,515 --> 00:06:00,204
combining a kernel plus

157
00:06:00,814 --> 00:06:03,273
many many tools from new or not new,

158
00:06:03,748 --> 00:06:06,621
just To remind everyone the internet is running

159
00:06:06,621 --> 00:06:09,821
on linux on Linux. And we'll talk later

160
00:06:09,877 --> 00:06:12,895
about a lot of other open source software.

161
00:06:13,784 --> 00:06:16,102
So it's not just Linux, but so many

162
00:06:16,102 --> 00:06:18,100
components of the internet that are running on

163
00:06:18,100 --> 00:06:19,459
open source software.

164
00:06:19,938 --> 00:06:23,375
Also just to be clear the first definition

165
00:06:23,375 --> 00:06:25,783
of open source was coming from from our

166
00:06:25,943 --> 00:06:29,134
France Ag new, but ultimately there has been

167
00:06:29,134 --> 00:06:29,634
competing

168
00:06:30,012 --> 00:06:30,331
initiatives.

169
00:06:31,144 --> 00:06:31,644
To

170
00:06:32,179 --> 00:06:33,215
define or redefine?

171
00:06:34,171 --> 00:06:35,525
What is open source?

172
00:06:36,242 --> 00:06:40,088
1 organization in particular the open source initiative

173
00:06:40,560 --> 00:06:44,000
os has tried to cod their own way

174
00:06:44,000 --> 00:06:46,159
and probably in a different way, which is

175
00:06:46,159 --> 00:06:49,388
considered open source or not. Have this official

176
00:06:49,603 --> 00:06:52,225
definition published in 26 and they keep updating.

177
00:06:52,622 --> 00:06:56,196
Time news, keep generating your new definitions and

178
00:06:56,196 --> 00:06:58,144
create you or updating licenses.

179
00:06:59,156 --> 00:07:00,214
So we have multiple

180
00:07:00,589 --> 00:07:01,089
licenses,

181
00:07:01,704 --> 00:07:04,411
possible when we talk about open source, which

182
00:07:04,411 --> 00:07:07,061
can continue create some misunderstanding about what he's

183
00:07:07,061 --> 00:07:10,098
exactly open source or not. Yeah. And we

184
00:07:10,098 --> 00:07:12,175
we'll come back to the more, bad use

185
00:07:12,175 --> 00:07:13,168
of open

186
00:07:13,620 --> 00:07:16,318
later in this episode, where, obviously, there are

187
00:07:16,318 --> 00:07:18,064
people that use open and it's not open

188
00:07:18,064 --> 00:07:18,936
at all. Yes.

189
00:07:19,984 --> 00:07:21,978
But these are 7 moments in real open

190
00:07:21,978 --> 00:07:23,892
source. It created a movement to create a

191
00:07:23,892 --> 00:07:26,785
way of doing things. It created a mindset

192
00:07:26,843 --> 00:07:28,917
on how people can share each other's source

193
00:07:28,917 --> 00:07:29,077
code.

194
00:07:29,889 --> 00:07:31,800
And and at the very nature source starts

195
00:07:31,800 --> 00:07:33,791
from there. It starts from the notion that

196
00:07:33,791 --> 00:07:36,818
source code, not the binary, not what's created

197
00:07:36,818 --> 00:07:38,984
by the compile that then is run as

198
00:07:38,984 --> 00:07:41,382
an application, but the source code itself can

199
00:07:41,382 --> 00:07:42,500
be shared for free.

200
00:07:43,300 --> 00:07:44,978
And that's like, I mean, that's incredible. It's

201
00:07:44,978 --> 00:07:47,375
like, the religion of the time was a

202
00:07:47,375 --> 00:07:49,305
religion of we have all these big monolithic

203
00:07:49,305 --> 00:07:50,502
the companies like Ibm,

204
00:07:51,140 --> 00:07:52,815
Microsoft emerging, etcetera, etcetera.

205
00:07:53,692 --> 00:07:55,766
It's someone that's saying, no. No. We don't

206
00:07:55,766 --> 00:07:57,441
accept the closed ecosystem play.

207
00:07:58,013 --> 00:07:59,759
We wanna have code that is shared globally.

208
00:07:59,996 --> 00:08:01,528
And in some ways, that movement

209
00:08:02,535 --> 00:08:04,914
is now probably the dominating moving in the

210
00:08:04,914 --> 00:08:06,754
world in terms of source code sharing. Obviously,

211
00:08:06,834 --> 00:08:08,183
as we know, there's a lot of people

212
00:08:08,183 --> 00:08:09,453
profiting out of code today.

213
00:08:10,247 --> 00:08:12,232
So there's ways of keeping your code intact

214
00:08:12,232 --> 00:08:13,343
and keeping things in house.

215
00:08:14,074 --> 00:08:15,668
But the open source movement has changed.

216
00:08:16,066 --> 00:08:17,602
All things are done, and it is

217
00:08:18,058 --> 00:08:18,558
quasi

218
00:08:18,935 --> 00:08:21,268
religious movement. It's this notion of

219
00:08:21,978 --> 00:08:25,001
you have... There's copyright. Right? I enforce my

220
00:08:25,001 --> 00:08:27,069
copyright, the entitlement I have to this thing

221
00:08:27,069 --> 00:08:28,819
that I developed and there's copy left, which

222
00:08:28,819 --> 00:08:30,092
is a term that came from open source.

223
00:08:30,743 --> 00:08:32,811
Which is you are obliged to share.

224
00:08:34,162 --> 00:08:35,378
And there's certain licenses,

225
00:08:35,991 --> 00:08:37,581
all the stuff that you developed around it.

226
00:08:37,820 --> 00:08:40,467
And to your point, there are coexist pieces.

227
00:08:40,707 --> 00:08:42,066
We'll come back to that later when we

228
00:08:42,066 --> 00:08:45,262
talk about Android and Google and the Android

229
00:08:45,262 --> 00:08:47,260
open source project versus Android itself.

230
00:08:47,834 --> 00:08:49,610
What is closed, what is open

231
00:08:49,987 --> 00:08:52,540
and how do some companies do well in

232
00:08:52,540 --> 00:08:53,678
maintaining these 2 aspects

233
00:08:54,135 --> 00:08:55,969
working really well? Like, the openness and the

234
00:08:55,969 --> 00:08:58,294
close piece. I think Google does decent job

235
00:08:58,294 --> 00:09:00,755
on Android, we'll argue later if that's the

236
00:09:00,755 --> 00:09:02,661
case or not. And, yeah. It all started.

237
00:09:03,375 --> 00:09:06,075
Similarly with this gentleman, Richard's Stall, and then

238
00:09:06,075 --> 00:09:08,878
with decent with Lin just giving us linux

239
00:09:08,878 --> 00:09:09,835
and everything changed.

240
00:09:10,553 --> 00:09:13,127
Yeah. It's really amazing when you think about

241
00:09:13,345 --> 00:09:14,940
what was happening at the time. I mean,

242
00:09:15,099 --> 00:09:16,750
if you think about the nineties, it was

243
00:09:16,948 --> 00:09:20,068
the rise of Microsoft from those to windows

244
00:09:20,362 --> 00:09:20,838
and

245
00:09:21,314 --> 00:09:23,220
Microsoft becoming at some 0.1 of them was

246
00:09:23,220 --> 00:09:25,725
valued company and at the time certainly fighting

247
00:09:25,784 --> 00:09:28,684
to nail against Open source was considered

248
00:09:29,144 --> 00:09:31,704
by some corporations. When actually know it was

249
00:09:31,704 --> 00:09:34,119
just a movement and a different approach to

250
00:09:34,119 --> 00:09:36,675
business and willingness to develop things in a

251
00:09:36,675 --> 00:09:39,711
different way. And a way that was more

252
00:09:39,711 --> 00:09:40,691
open transparent

253
00:09:41,084 --> 00:09:41,743
collaborative collaborative.

254
00:09:42,200 --> 00:09:42,700
And

255
00:09:43,077 --> 00:09:45,469
especially important, you could argue in the edge

256
00:09:45,469 --> 00:09:45,969
of

257
00:09:46,346 --> 00:09:49,636
deploying applications everywhere depending on these applications

258
00:09:50,029 --> 00:09:53,162
stability over time. It is a significant

259
00:09:54,178 --> 00:09:55,476
evolution of the history

260
00:09:55,854 --> 00:09:57,450
of computers and programming.

261
00:09:58,024 --> 00:10:00,095
In Microsoft, will keep popping up in this

262
00:10:00,095 --> 00:10:01,449
episode. I mean, just to be very clear.

263
00:10:02,006 --> 00:10:03,679
This is not their first rodeo. They've been

264
00:10:03,679 --> 00:10:05,750
having these fights or anti antitrust cases,

265
00:10:06,307 --> 00:10:06,626
etcetera.

266
00:10:07,199 --> 00:10:08,553
And in some ways, a lot of the

267
00:10:08,553 --> 00:10:10,886
reactions we saw even with Linux, Linux becoming

268
00:10:11,024 --> 00:10:14,052
such an important operating system, certainly server side

269
00:10:14,052 --> 00:10:14,451
globally.

270
00:10:15,344 --> 00:10:17,341
Has to do with a fight to Microsoft.

271
00:10:17,741 --> 00:10:19,659
Because, obviously, as you said Microsoft wind does

272
00:10:19,659 --> 00:10:22,556
to windows, and then they were really

273
00:10:23,349 --> 00:10:25,025
managing a closed ecosystem,

274
00:10:25,584 --> 00:10:27,659
and there was this view like, an operating

275
00:10:27,659 --> 00:10:29,654
system is critical, an operating system for those

276
00:10:29,654 --> 00:10:31,330
who were listening to us or not.

277
00:10:31,984 --> 00:10:33,979
Not computer scientist, or computer engineers is what

278
00:10:33,979 --> 00:10:36,534
makes a specific device work.

279
00:10:37,092 --> 00:10:40,205
An operating system for your computer for your

280
00:10:40,205 --> 00:10:42,454
laptop let's say you're running Windows or Macos

281
00:10:42,454 --> 00:10:45,565
os is what makes the device work. So

282
00:10:45,565 --> 00:10:47,479
it's... Without it, there's nothing else. It's it's

283
00:10:47,479 --> 00:10:49,553
the core. It's it's what makes it boot

284
00:10:49,553 --> 00:10:52,040
up and It shows something in front of

285
00:10:52,040 --> 00:10:53,476
you and all that stuff and then there's

286
00:10:53,476 --> 00:10:55,630
things on top of it. As Beth talked

287
00:10:55,630 --> 00:10:57,066
about it earlier even in the case of

288
00:10:57,146 --> 00:10:57,385
Linux.

289
00:10:57,958 --> 00:10:59,786
There's device drivers. There are things that make

290
00:10:59,786 --> 00:11:01,535
other devices that connect to that device work.

291
00:11:01,694 --> 00:11:03,443
Like, for example, if you have a a

292
00:11:03,443 --> 00:11:05,350
keyboard or a mouse, etcetera. You need to

293
00:11:05,350 --> 00:11:07,274
have device drivers that support certain type. Of

294
00:11:07,274 --> 00:11:09,426
keyboards in certain types of mouse. And then

295
00:11:09,426 --> 00:11:12,136
on top of that, you have user interface,

296
00:11:12,295 --> 00:11:14,926
which in general, is extended by the operating

297
00:11:14,926 --> 00:11:16,532
systems types it's part of the operating system

298
00:11:16,532 --> 00:11:16,929
these days.

299
00:11:17,645 --> 00:11:18,917
But you could argue it's sort of a

300
00:11:18,917 --> 00:11:21,779
different logical piece of it. And then you

301
00:11:21,779 --> 00:11:23,370
have all the apps, what you run on

302
00:11:23,370 --> 00:11:25,792
it. Microsoft word, but Powerpoint,

303
00:11:26,561 --> 00:11:29,337
your email client, all that our apps. They

304
00:11:29,337 --> 00:11:31,003
run on top of the operating system. Right?

305
00:11:31,321 --> 00:11:34,119
And so operating are critical. Because without operating

306
00:11:34,119 --> 00:11:36,596
systems, the device is a piece of hardware,

307
00:11:36,836 --> 00:11:39,233
nothing happens. There's nothing happening to it. Yes.

308
00:11:39,473 --> 00:11:39,792
Totally,

309
00:11:40,432 --> 00:11:41,971
I think systems are critical.

310
00:11:42,604 --> 00:11:45,656
Maybe we can go a bit quickly about

311
00:11:45,794 --> 00:11:48,448
what is Open source. What is the definition

312
00:11:48,905 --> 00:11:51,138
of open source. If I take the aussie

313
00:11:51,218 --> 00:11:52,389
Open source initiative

314
00:11:52,908 --> 00:11:56,281
definition, open source needs to meet multiple criteria

315
00:11:56,340 --> 00:11:58,255
in order to qualify as being open source.

316
00:11:58,894 --> 00:12:01,860
1 is free distribution. You should not restrict

317
00:12:01,860 --> 00:12:04,014
any party from selling or giving away the

318
00:12:04,014 --> 00:12:04,413
software.

319
00:12:05,130 --> 00:12:06,747
So it has to be a free

320
00:12:07,284 --> 00:12:08,501
distribution, no royalty,

321
00:12:09,038 --> 00:12:09,676
no fee.

322
00:12:10,568 --> 00:12:13,598
Then the source code must be included and

323
00:12:13,598 --> 00:12:14,257
you must

324
00:12:14,714 --> 00:12:16,946
the distribution in source code as well as

325
00:12:16,946 --> 00:12:18,301
in compiled form.

326
00:12:19,034 --> 00:12:20,491
So that's another critical

327
00:12:21,027 --> 00:12:23,100
part. You need to be able to inspect

328
00:12:23,100 --> 00:12:25,811
that software as a developer, be able to

329
00:12:25,811 --> 00:12:27,007
inspect it if you want.

330
00:12:27,899 --> 00:12:30,775
So that it, it's clearly understandable, and you

331
00:12:30,775 --> 00:12:32,553
can make sense of it and potentially

332
00:12:33,092 --> 00:12:34,210
do something about it.

333
00:12:34,864 --> 00:12:37,895
So the third condition is about derived works.

334
00:12:39,011 --> 00:12:41,904
It must be authorized. So you must allow

335
00:12:42,122 --> 00:12:44,536
modifications and derived works

336
00:12:45,090 --> 00:12:47,170
you must allow them to be distributed about

337
00:12:47,170 --> 00:12:50,149
similar terms. Fourth, it's about integrity

338
00:12:50,529 --> 00:12:52,290
of the auto source,

339
00:12:52,944 --> 00:12:54,780
So there are different ways. You cannot authorize

340
00:12:54,780 --> 00:12:55,918
that, but basically,

341
00:12:56,695 --> 00:12:59,489
t derive worked. Might need to carry a

342
00:12:59,489 --> 00:13:01,005
different name or version numbers.

343
00:13:01,500 --> 00:13:03,500
So there is still a support to make

344
00:13:03,500 --> 00:13:06,139
sure that it's clear what is the initial

345
00:13:06,139 --> 00:13:06,379
auto,

346
00:13:07,019 --> 00:13:09,031
source code and what is not. So you

347
00:13:09,031 --> 00:13:11,575
can modify it, but you cannot mis people

348
00:13:11,575 --> 00:13:12,075
about

349
00:13:12,449 --> 00:13:14,356
what is your original product or not.

350
00:13:15,231 --> 00:13:17,400
No discrimination against persons,

351
00:13:17,949 --> 00:13:18,427
or groups.

352
00:13:19,385 --> 00:13:19,885
No

353
00:13:20,262 --> 00:13:23,213
discrimination against fields of end endeavor.

354
00:13:23,851 --> 00:13:26,005
You cannot restrict the program to be used

355
00:13:26,005 --> 00:13:28,329
in a specific field or in a certain

356
00:13:28,329 --> 00:13:28,567
way,

357
00:13:29,439 --> 00:13:30,232
distribution of license,

358
00:13:30,707 --> 00:13:33,641
so the the rights must apply, there should

359
00:13:33,641 --> 00:13:35,226
not be a need for additional license.

360
00:13:35,719 --> 00:13:38,197
So what you distribute as to be all

361
00:13:38,197 --> 00:13:38,596
included.

362
00:13:39,395 --> 00:13:41,952
And license might not force you to use

363
00:13:41,952 --> 00:13:43,950
as program as part of an another product.

364
00:13:44,844 --> 00:13:46,842
You might not restrict all the software,

365
00:13:47,481 --> 00:13:48,621
aim must be technology

366
00:13:49,239 --> 00:13:51,717
neutral. That's the definition. So if you want

367
00:13:51,717 --> 00:13:53,075
to say and claim,

368
00:13:53,809 --> 00:13:55,882
that your product is open source, it has

369
00:13:55,882 --> 00:13:56,622
to follow

370
00:13:57,238 --> 00:13:58,376
this criteria

371
00:13:58,833 --> 00:13:59,630
laid out by the.

372
00:14:00,667 --> 00:14:02,900
And typically, what people do is that they

373
00:14:02,900 --> 00:14:03,734
will choose

374
00:14:04,267 --> 00:14:07,707
a specific license that has already been

375
00:14:08,399 --> 00:14:08,899
developed

376
00:14:09,353 --> 00:14:09,853
to

377
00:14:10,624 --> 00:14:13,909
basically, instead of to recreating your license, you

378
00:14:13,909 --> 00:14:16,009
will pick an existing open source license

379
00:14:16,629 --> 00:14:19,589
that has been fine tune to follow these

380
00:14:19,589 --> 00:14:20,070
criteria.

381
00:14:20,804 --> 00:14:23,041
Yes. So there you have it. If you

382
00:14:23,041 --> 00:14:25,198
wanna do something open source, that's basically it.

383
00:14:25,438 --> 00:14:27,356
We've talked about the terms of licensing already,

384
00:14:27,595 --> 00:14:29,605
copyright first. Copy left. Right to open source

385
00:14:29,605 --> 00:14:31,041
copy left. Right? It's so you have to

386
00:14:31,041 --> 00:14:32,078
pass it on and it's free.

387
00:14:32,795 --> 00:14:34,550
This gets a little bit muddy because we'll

388
00:14:34,550 --> 00:14:35,608
discuss a few companies

389
00:14:35,985 --> 00:14:37,443
later on where

390
00:14:38,153 --> 00:14:39,847
you know, some elements

391
00:14:40,858 --> 00:14:41,358
of

392
00:14:43,483 --> 00:14:45,406
openness and then there's some elements of closeness.

393
00:14:45,565 --> 00:14:47,550
I mean, we'll talk about Android and, obviously,

394
00:14:47,788 --> 00:14:48,288
Google's

395
00:14:49,059 --> 00:14:51,679
stake in that ecosystem on Android. We'll talk

396
00:14:51,679 --> 00:14:55,122
about actual lives around openness. When things are

397
00:14:55,122 --> 00:14:55,842
not open at all.

398
00:14:56,641 --> 00:14:58,479
And maybe we'll start with 1 firm that

399
00:14:58,479 --> 00:14:59,837
has gotten quite a lot of heat that

400
00:14:59,837 --> 00:15:01,915
now seems to be changing their ways. We'll

401
00:15:01,915 --> 00:15:02,415
see

402
00:15:02,968 --> 00:15:04,959
but certainly, many years ago was getting a

403
00:15:04,959 --> 00:15:06,871
lot of heat for for taking advantage of

404
00:15:06,871 --> 00:15:08,941
open source but not giving back. Right? Which

405
00:15:08,941 --> 00:15:11,570
was Amazon. And in particular Amazon Web services.

406
00:15:11,744 --> 00:15:13,178
The reuse of a lot of code that

407
00:15:13,178 --> 00:15:13,678
was

408
00:15:14,214 --> 00:15:16,684
seen as open source code, sort of taking

409
00:15:16,684 --> 00:15:18,916
it, playing with it, doing things to it,

410
00:15:19,410 --> 00:15:20,929
fork it as we call it Fork is

411
00:15:20,929 --> 00:15:23,410
creating an an alternative version to it that

412
00:15:23,410 --> 00:15:25,490
goes into the future. Think of it as

413
00:15:25,490 --> 00:15:26,690
if you watch Science fiction,

414
00:15:27,264 --> 00:15:29,664
parallel universes in another universe, something else happens.

415
00:15:29,825 --> 00:15:30,705
That's the fork. Right?

416
00:15:31,345 --> 00:15:32,384
It's like a fork on road.

417
00:15:33,105 --> 00:15:33,605
And

418
00:15:33,985 --> 00:15:35,345
they got a lot of heat for it.

419
00:15:35,598 --> 00:15:37,267
Certainly back in 2018

420
00:15:37,267 --> 00:15:38,801
on the fact that they were

421
00:15:39,175 --> 00:15:42,116
sur, but not contributing. Recently, it seems that

422
00:15:42,116 --> 00:15:43,864
that attitude has change that they're now much

423
00:15:43,864 --> 00:15:44,364
more

424
00:15:44,993 --> 00:15:47,705
strongly contributing, but that led to a variety

425
00:15:47,705 --> 00:15:50,677
of things from the market from commons clause

426
00:15:51,055 --> 00:15:53,368
to the server side public license Sp from

427
00:15:53,447 --> 00:15:53,947
Mongodb.

428
00:15:54,579 --> 00:15:56,094
Which tried to address some of the concerns

429
00:15:56,094 --> 00:15:57,392
and issues that were happening

430
00:15:58,168 --> 00:16:00,322
with some of these big giants just reusing

431
00:16:00,322 --> 00:16:01,518
a bunch of code that was out there

432
00:16:01,518 --> 00:16:03,512
and then appropriate it as themselves with not

433
00:16:03,512 --> 00:16:05,542
contributing back to those repo.

434
00:16:06,079 --> 00:16:08,414
1 important piece to take into account is

435
00:16:08,552 --> 00:16:09,530
we talk repo,

436
00:16:10,227 --> 00:16:11,205
think of it as

437
00:16:11,583 --> 00:16:12,880
containers things that have

438
00:16:13,258 --> 00:16:13,896
a code in it.

439
00:16:14,708 --> 00:16:17,019
That makes over time that code to be

440
00:16:17,019 --> 00:16:18,771
compiled and then to be executed so to

441
00:16:18,771 --> 00:16:20,684
run as binary rec code. To make something

442
00:16:20,684 --> 00:16:21,241
then work.

443
00:16:21,814 --> 00:16:24,116
And the importance of this is in all

444
00:16:24,116 --> 00:16:25,466
these open source projects,

445
00:16:26,181 --> 00:16:27,849
there are different roles in the open source

446
00:16:27,849 --> 00:16:30,548
projects. So open source projects themselves have...

447
00:16:31,279 --> 00:16:33,360
Their own governance. Right? There are people that

448
00:16:33,360 --> 00:16:34,960
can commit to the open source project that

449
00:16:34,960 --> 00:16:36,320
are people that can review stuff for the

450
00:16:36,320 --> 00:16:37,200
open source project,

451
00:16:37,840 --> 00:16:39,200
and there are people that the end can

452
00:16:39,200 --> 00:16:39,940
approve changes

453
00:16:40,654 --> 00:16:42,908
for new versions of the code. Right? So

454
00:16:43,685 --> 00:16:45,758
even in these things, even though it's all

455
00:16:45,758 --> 00:16:48,173
open, etcetera for some of these big repo

456
00:16:48,311 --> 00:16:49,906
where there's a lot of code being maintained,

457
00:16:50,798 --> 00:16:52,554
There's still governance. So it's not like there's

458
00:16:52,554 --> 00:16:54,309
no governance. This is an article system and

459
00:16:54,309 --> 00:16:55,825
people do whatever they want. There is still

460
00:16:55,825 --> 00:16:57,261
a governance system. Yes.

461
00:16:57,995 --> 00:16:59,754
The issue with Amazon is they were opening

462
00:16:59,754 --> 00:17:01,595
all this code using it for themselves, which

463
00:17:01,595 --> 00:17:02,075
is fine,

464
00:17:02,714 --> 00:17:04,794
but they're not giving anything back in the

465
00:17:04,794 --> 00:17:05,535
shape of

466
00:17:05,849 --> 00:17:08,161
things that they might have evolved and improved

467
00:17:08,161 --> 00:17:09,857
in the code that might have been valuable

468
00:17:10,394 --> 00:17:12,547
for the open source repo that they were

469
00:17:12,547 --> 00:17:14,141
taking source code from.

470
00:17:14,954 --> 00:17:16,493
Yeah. I think also

471
00:17:16,952 --> 00:17:19,190
in a way, and we'll talk more later

472
00:17:19,190 --> 00:17:21,587
about business models, but it was in some

473
00:17:21,587 --> 00:17:24,359
ways probably connected to Open source business models

474
00:17:24,559 --> 00:17:25,377
when you

475
00:17:25,754 --> 00:17:29,021
make open source software, some like the kernel.

476
00:17:29,977 --> 00:17:32,447
Everyone around it is going to help contribute

477
00:17:32,447 --> 00:17:34,534
to that channel because at some point, they

478
00:17:34,534 --> 00:17:37,408
will have either a no direct benefit except

479
00:17:37,408 --> 00:17:40,463
contributing fight or because the development is sponsored

480
00:17:40,521 --> 00:17:43,656
partially by big corporations, went intend to reuse

481
00:17:44,129 --> 00:17:46,202
9 external in some of their other products,

482
00:17:46,362 --> 00:17:48,276
so they see a benefit to have contribute

483
00:17:48,276 --> 00:17:49,016
to that

484
00:17:49,472 --> 00:17:51,706
because it reduced dependence on third parties. So

485
00:17:51,706 --> 00:17:53,301
you under up paving more control.

486
00:17:54,033 --> 00:17:56,341
But for some of the open source projects,

487
00:17:56,898 --> 00:17:59,206
it's a database for instance, and we can

488
00:17:59,206 --> 00:18:00,877
take the example of Mongodb Db.

489
00:18:01,608 --> 00:18:04,317
Part of the business model of that company

490
00:18:04,317 --> 00:18:05,672
might be you know what? We're going to

491
00:18:05,672 --> 00:18:07,924
provide the software for free Mongodb,

492
00:18:08,874 --> 00:18:11,424
But at some point, if users want us

493
00:18:11,424 --> 00:18:13,496
to host the database in the cloud that

494
00:18:13,496 --> 00:18:15,249
sort of stuff, we are going to simplify

495
00:18:15,249 --> 00:18:15,887
and streamline.

496
00:18:16,699 --> 00:18:18,857
And host it for them and manage it

497
00:18:18,857 --> 00:18:20,295
for them, it would be easier for them,

498
00:18:20,455 --> 00:18:21,653
and that's how we are going to make

499
00:18:21,653 --> 00:18:23,891
money. So their way to... On 1 side,

500
00:18:23,971 --> 00:18:25,030
they build a software

501
00:18:25,424 --> 00:18:27,258
for free available for free, but in exchange,

502
00:18:27,418 --> 00:18:28,854
if you have some specific queues,

503
00:18:29,571 --> 00:18:32,044
it was expected that you might use them

504
00:18:32,044 --> 00:18:34,517
for that specific host use case.

505
00:18:35,567 --> 00:18:38,030
But when Amazon comes, take over the source

506
00:18:38,030 --> 00:18:40,755
code and host it. It becomes very difficult

507
00:18:40,970 --> 00:18:42,797
competition. As a result, your business model is

508
00:18:42,797 --> 00:18:43,592
not working anymore.

509
00:18:44,324 --> 00:18:47,061
So that's what many open source companies were

510
00:18:47,121 --> 00:18:49,757
facing basically, it's the end of their Open

511
00:18:49,757 --> 00:18:50,317
source project.

512
00:18:50,876 --> 00:18:52,569
Because if they have no more money, to

513
00:18:52,569 --> 00:18:54,723
deliver on it. And Amazon is not contributing.

514
00:18:54,883 --> 00:18:56,479
The the project is going to die. So

515
00:18:56,479 --> 00:18:57,835
the felt they had to make a decision.

516
00:18:58,075 --> 00:19:00,641
The decision led to new license us or

517
00:19:00,641 --> 00:19:02,470
new clothes added 2 existing license.

518
00:19:03,186 --> 00:19:05,731
Now to deploy bit the Amazon news of

519
00:19:05,731 --> 00:19:08,832
just hosting the Open source software and making

520
00:19:08,832 --> 00:19:10,995
money out of it and the sometime destroying

521
00:19:10,995 --> 00:19:13,248
the business model that I've evolved

522
00:19:13,703 --> 00:19:15,535
from the open source community.

523
00:19:16,252 --> 00:19:17,685
Yeah. I know. I I just to maybe

524
00:19:17,685 --> 00:19:19,534
finalize this discussion on this. The is when

525
00:19:19,534 --> 00:19:22,011
then lawyers get involved. Heather Meek is probably

526
00:19:22,011 --> 00:19:23,610
well known very... She's based in the bay

527
00:19:23,690 --> 00:19:25,368
I think still. And that's where lawyers got

528
00:19:25,368 --> 00:19:26,886
involved because at some point there it has

529
00:19:26,886 --> 00:19:28,325
to be a legal framework around all of

530
00:19:28,325 --> 00:19:31,057
these things. Can't just operate outside some line.

531
00:19:31,217 --> 00:19:32,975
There needs to be a line on the

532
00:19:32,975 --> 00:19:34,813
sand that can be enforce where people can

533
00:19:34,813 --> 00:19:36,571
take each other to court, and we had

534
00:19:36,571 --> 00:19:38,818
huge fights in the past. Right? Oracle fight

535
00:19:38,818 --> 00:19:41,121
would Google because of the Java situation after

536
00:19:41,121 --> 00:19:41,859
the Sun

537
00:19:42,311 --> 00:19:44,773
acquisition. I mean, these things matter. Right? Who

538
00:19:44,773 --> 00:19:45,726
owns something.

539
00:19:46,217 --> 00:19:48,758
Obviously matters when it comes to code as

540
00:19:48,758 --> 00:19:50,108
much as it does to anything else Right?

541
00:19:50,346 --> 00:19:51,561
Like a house. So

542
00:19:52,252 --> 00:19:54,634
so so that's why these new rules that

543
00:19:54,634 --> 00:19:56,238
were put in play these new types of

544
00:19:56,238 --> 00:19:56,738
agreements

545
00:19:57,349 --> 00:19:59,199
were there to try and frame

546
00:19:59,890 --> 00:20:01,875
a different perspective on how things were evolving.

547
00:20:02,034 --> 00:20:04,036
Things we're getting extremely complex there was a

548
00:20:04,036 --> 00:20:06,422
need to clarify things and and make them

549
00:20:06,422 --> 00:20:06,979
more explicit.

550
00:20:07,854 --> 00:20:10,731
And at the same, not everything is... All

551
00:20:10,731 --> 00:20:13,293
good and well under there's the open source

552
00:20:13,428 --> 00:20:14,459
sky and environment,

553
00:20:15,093 --> 00:20:17,710
there might be some issues. And typically the

554
00:20:17,710 --> 00:20:17,948
1,

555
00:20:18,519 --> 00:20:20,773
of people know in the tech industry

556
00:20:21,151 --> 00:20:23,326
is a risk of using some copy left

557
00:20:23,384 --> 00:20:24,580
licensed software.

558
00:20:25,458 --> 00:20:28,305
So for instance, if we take a new

559
00:20:28,744 --> 00:20:29,144
software,

560
00:20:29,705 --> 00:20:31,805
many are using the new general

561
00:20:32,184 --> 00:20:32,985
public license,

562
00:20:33,465 --> 00:20:34,684
Gp p license

563
00:20:35,305 --> 00:20:35,785
for short,

564
00:20:36,359 --> 00:20:38,593
And this 1 can be pretty dangerous because

565
00:20:38,593 --> 00:20:40,109
it's a copy left license.

566
00:20:40,508 --> 00:20:42,444
But the problem is a copy license

567
00:20:42,822 --> 00:20:43,561
is that

568
00:20:44,033 --> 00:20:46,761
You are forced to share everything you built

569
00:20:46,818 --> 00:20:47,693
with this software,

570
00:20:48,329 --> 00:20:49,284
with everybody else.

571
00:20:50,159 --> 00:20:52,307
So if you are a closed source business,

572
00:20:52,878 --> 00:20:55,582
create new software that is leveraging Gp,

573
00:20:56,218 --> 00:20:56,718
software,

574
00:20:57,411 --> 00:20:59,160
you might be in trouble and might end

575
00:20:59,160 --> 00:21:01,228
up being forced to open source your product

576
00:21:01,228 --> 00:21:03,392
and provided it for free. Typically is that

577
00:21:03,392 --> 00:21:05,065
something you want to be very aware. The

578
00:21:05,225 --> 00:21:07,376
Gp is not the only license that Micro

579
00:21:07,376 --> 00:21:07,615
str,

580
00:21:08,253 --> 00:21:09,926
but it's certainly is most common on 1.

581
00:21:10,659 --> 00:21:13,210
And when you are developing a software is

582
00:21:13,210 --> 00:21:15,999
there is typically what do developers if they

583
00:21:15,999 --> 00:21:18,333
are working for a cross source company

584
00:21:18,963 --> 00:21:22,138
is making sure that they absolutely never used

585
00:21:22,138 --> 00:21:26,050
any Dp licensed software in the process, unfortunately.

586
00:21:26,519 --> 00:21:28,759
Given the restrictions. And, I mean, as you

587
00:21:28,759 --> 00:21:30,279
said, there has been fights in the past,

588
00:21:31,079 --> 00:21:33,319
there has been some pretty famous fights of

589
00:21:33,319 --> 00:21:34,299
companies who

590
00:21:34,692 --> 00:21:37,788
try to basically leverage new license software,

591
00:21:38,423 --> 00:21:41,359
Gp software, and that didn't end up well

592
00:21:41,359 --> 00:21:41,597
for them.

593
00:21:42,326 --> 00:21:44,648
And they are to either settle, like Vmware

594
00:21:45,258 --> 00:21:47,793
or some others like Verizon at to open

595
00:21:47,793 --> 00:21:48,664
source their product.

596
00:21:49,394 --> 00:21:51,487
So as a company, what we do typically

597
00:21:51,544 --> 00:21:54,412
would be to scan. Your source scan for

598
00:21:54,412 --> 00:21:55,709
different type of license

599
00:21:56,165 --> 00:21:58,316
in order to understand what license is being

600
00:21:58,316 --> 00:22:00,247
used because sometimes you... You don't know when

601
00:22:00,247 --> 00:22:03,544
your developers have introduce some software, libraries,

602
00:22:04,242 --> 00:22:05,600
copy paste, even some stuff.

603
00:22:06,334 --> 00:22:08,085
And this stuff could be ready than draws.

604
00:22:08,324 --> 00:22:09,756
It's a big question you have when you

605
00:22:09,756 --> 00:22:11,928
do point instance financing of the business

606
00:22:12,383 --> 00:22:13,657
when you exit the business,

607
00:22:14,229 --> 00:22:16,216
You need to make sure you understand your

608
00:22:16,216 --> 00:22:19,078
risk profile and potentially an alternative to some

609
00:22:19,078 --> 00:22:20,668
software before you can go to the next

610
00:22:20,668 --> 00:22:22,496
stage. This is a big deal because as

611
00:22:22,496 --> 00:22:23,212
its human nature.

612
00:22:23,944 --> 00:22:25,221
Developers can be brilliant, but at the same

613
00:22:25,221 --> 00:22:26,178
time they can be lazy.

614
00:22:26,976 --> 00:22:28,413
And so they just copy paste something. They're

615
00:22:28,413 --> 00:22:29,929
like, I don't... I have no clue where

616
00:22:29,929 --> 00:22:31,366
this is coming from, and they just use

617
00:22:31,366 --> 00:22:31,446
it.

618
00:22:32,418 --> 00:22:34,093
That piece of code might have come to

619
00:22:34,093 --> 00:22:36,725
be honest from something that is license that

620
00:22:36,725 --> 00:22:38,400
is not beneficial to the company that they're

621
00:22:38,400 --> 00:22:40,017
developing it for. And so,

622
00:22:40,394 --> 00:22:41,851
again, it's a little bit like

623
00:22:42,242 --> 00:22:43,590
think of it. People I hope but that's

624
00:22:43,590 --> 00:22:45,176
silly. It's it's not so silly. I mean,

625
00:22:45,335 --> 00:22:47,079
think of it if I'm developing something.

626
00:22:48,031 --> 00:22:49,910
I it's like writing a book. Right? It's

627
00:22:50,188 --> 00:22:52,414
happens to be a book that manifests itself

628
00:22:52,414 --> 00:22:53,686
in many weird ways.

629
00:22:54,640 --> 00:22:55,777
If I'm reusing

630
00:22:56,469 --> 00:22:57,582
lines from another book,

631
00:22:58,234 --> 00:23:00,231
I need to know what I using it

632
00:23:00,231 --> 00:23:02,548
from. Right? And understand. What's the right quotation?

633
00:23:02,708 --> 00:23:04,066
What's the right source? What's the right license?

634
00:23:04,226 --> 00:23:05,079
This is the

635
00:23:05,438 --> 00:23:06,710
analogy for this. I know it's a little

636
00:23:06,710 --> 00:23:08,063
bit more complex than that, but it's the

637
00:23:08,063 --> 00:23:10,074
analogy for this. If you using in borrowing

638
00:23:10,210 --> 00:23:11,722
code from somewhere else, you need to really

639
00:23:11,722 --> 00:23:13,154
make sure that you understand where that code

640
00:23:13,154 --> 00:23:15,312
is coming from. Did you not infringing on

641
00:23:15,312 --> 00:23:17,612
anyone's licenses or not, you know, embedding your

642
00:23:17,612 --> 00:23:19,198
own code with stuff that can come back

643
00:23:19,198 --> 00:23:21,577
to haunt you us as Bert was mentioning?

644
00:23:22,148 --> 00:23:24,158
And I think you know, the book reference

645
00:23:24,214 --> 00:23:26,940
have lost its president on and some copyright

646
00:23:27,314 --> 00:23:29,642
issues. It was not copyright, but it was

647
00:23:30,096 --> 00:23:30,596
quotations

648
00:23:31,621 --> 00:23:32,970
quotations at we... I don't I don't wanna

649
00:23:32,970 --> 00:23:34,160
do I get into a fight with Billy

650
00:23:34,240 --> 00:23:34,740
Ackerman

651
00:23:35,113 --> 00:23:37,256
because I think... No. No. No. It was

652
00:23:37,256 --> 00:23:39,161
this was afterwards. Right? So this was the

653
00:23:39,161 --> 00:23:39,661
post

654
00:23:40,129 --> 00:23:42,442
It started with quotations on his wife, and

655
00:23:42,442 --> 00:23:44,515
then it extended to Harvard and, you know,

656
00:23:44,834 --> 00:23:46,827
obviously, they they kicked out. I think it

657
00:23:46,827 --> 00:23:48,662
started with Salvador. No. No. It's it started

658
00:23:48,662 --> 00:23:50,189
with Sa. I think it was the other

659
00:23:50,189 --> 00:23:52,257
way around. You then got... They then they

660
00:23:52,257 --> 00:23:54,564
you went after no. Anyway, we we don't

661
00:23:54,564 --> 00:23:56,018
wanna go into political

662
00:23:56,791 --> 00:23:57,291
quotation

663
00:23:57,999 --> 00:24:00,299
cheers and have bill tweet on us. It's...

664
00:24:00,537 --> 00:24:02,442
We're okay. We're good. Bill, We love you.

665
00:24:03,870 --> 00:24:06,194
So I think it's proving the importance of

666
00:24:06,424 --> 00:24:09,596
basically copying someone's work. It can be a

667
00:24:09,596 --> 00:24:11,500
book. It can be an article. It can

668
00:24:11,500 --> 00:24:12,214
be a reference.

669
00:24:12,928 --> 00:24:13,959
It can be soft code.

670
00:24:14,689 --> 00:24:16,364
So code, there is... I mean, written return

671
00:24:16,364 --> 00:24:16,603
work.

672
00:24:17,241 --> 00:24:19,315
So you want to be careful before doing

673
00:24:19,315 --> 00:24:21,149
that. If does the right license, it's okay.

674
00:24:21,389 --> 00:24:23,223
If it does not the right license, then

675
00:24:23,223 --> 00:24:24,180
it's not... Okay.

676
00:24:24,991 --> 00:24:27,057
The open source projects, and as you mentioned,

677
00:24:27,216 --> 00:24:29,123
mindset and movement. This is a movement, Right?

678
00:24:29,281 --> 00:24:31,506
Open source movement. Has given us a lot

679
00:24:31,506 --> 00:24:32,857
more things than just code.

680
00:24:33,428 --> 00:24:35,119
Giving us a lot more things and just

681
00:24:35,572 --> 00:24:36,072
software.

682
00:24:37,240 --> 00:24:39,804
Given us, for example, very deep organizational

683
00:24:40,178 --> 00:24:42,163
shifts. We now talk about remote teams as

684
00:24:42,163 --> 00:24:44,734
if it's Oh my God. We discovered remote

685
00:24:44,734 --> 00:24:46,815
teams. The first guy is at scale to

686
00:24:46,815 --> 00:24:47,795
have remote teams

687
00:24:48,255 --> 00:24:48,755
were

688
00:24:49,375 --> 00:24:49,875
companies

689
00:24:50,174 --> 00:24:52,255
or organizations or projects that were open source.

690
00:24:52,588 --> 00:24:54,728
Right? Yes. Because of the nature of it.

691
00:24:54,887 --> 00:24:57,503
Right? Because there were thousands of contributors from

692
00:24:57,503 --> 00:24:59,644
around the world, they were not c located.

693
00:25:00,214 --> 00:25:01,723
In many cases, they were doing this part

694
00:25:01,723 --> 00:25:04,130
time. They were doing development part time linux

695
00:25:04,424 --> 00:25:07,149
is a great example of that. And so

696
00:25:07,460 --> 00:25:09,619
these teams were what in the open source

697
00:25:09,619 --> 00:25:11,539
world have come to be known as fully

698
00:25:11,539 --> 00:25:13,859
liquid teams. Right? So everyone's around the world,

699
00:25:14,339 --> 00:25:15,559
there's no real hubs

700
00:25:16,034 --> 00:25:17,474
it's a fully distributed team,

701
00:25:18,194 --> 00:25:19,015
and those

702
00:25:19,394 --> 00:25:19,875
projects,

703
00:25:20,355 --> 00:25:22,515
those companies that were focused on open source

704
00:25:22,515 --> 00:25:23,015
projects

705
00:25:23,649 --> 00:25:24,787
were the real pioneers

706
00:25:25,325 --> 00:25:28,516
on fully distributed. And that shifted in many

707
00:25:28,516 --> 00:25:30,671
ways, for example, I know how engineering is

708
00:25:30,671 --> 00:25:32,125
done today. Because if you think about it,

709
00:25:32,285 --> 00:25:34,545
it's not just the organization different than everyone's

710
00:25:34,684 --> 00:25:36,365
working from around the world that's... How do

711
00:25:36,365 --> 00:25:39,164
you coordinate people on code. How do you

712
00:25:39,164 --> 00:25:41,599
bring code pieces together into something

713
00:25:42,059 --> 00:25:42,619
that works.

714
00:25:43,259 --> 00:25:45,179
When do you compile? When do you launch

715
00:25:45,179 --> 00:25:47,500
into production? Right? Who's doing the testing before

716
00:25:47,500 --> 00:25:49,192
all of this happening? And how are they

717
00:25:49,192 --> 00:25:50,969
doing the testing? So it changed everything

718
00:25:51,665 --> 00:25:54,377
around software engineering and software development? And I

719
00:25:54,377 --> 00:25:57,647
guess no surprise that Git was created by

720
00:25:57,647 --> 00:25:58,147
uni

721
00:25:58,700 --> 00:26:01,180
to help him better manage the development of

722
00:26:01,180 --> 00:26:01,660
the canal.

723
00:26:02,299 --> 00:26:04,240
So ga is a way to basically

724
00:26:04,539 --> 00:26:05,680
synchronize and

725
00:26:06,059 --> 00:26:09,033
and branch so code. So we need that

726
00:26:09,033 --> 00:26:09,533
first

727
00:26:09,912 --> 00:26:13,188
because of that unique aspect of very remote

728
00:26:13,188 --> 00:26:14,248
distributor teams

729
00:26:14,627 --> 00:26:16,405
as that is inherent to

730
00:26:16,798 --> 00:26:18,331
many open source project

731
00:26:18,945 --> 00:26:21,330
by it was open source created the need

732
00:26:21,330 --> 00:26:24,192
and ultimately fund solutions to solve this needs.

733
00:26:24,923 --> 00:26:25,423
So

734
00:26:25,798 --> 00:26:26,275
development,

735
00:26:26,673 --> 00:26:27,173
globally,

736
00:26:27,548 --> 00:26:29,298
at any anytime zone anytime,

737
00:26:30,014 --> 00:26:33,131
definitely an innovation. From open source san just

738
00:26:33,131 --> 00:26:35,618
an innovation itself, but they build the tools

739
00:26:35,675 --> 00:26:37,685
to get the job done and the processes

740
00:26:38,060 --> 00:26:39,253
to get the job done.

741
00:26:39,983 --> 00:26:41,990
And get if it's familiar to you guys

742
00:26:42,046 --> 00:26:43,712
because you've heard about a company called Github

743
00:26:43,712 --> 00:26:46,013
that was a massive acquisition. And a few

744
00:26:46,013 --> 00:26:46,569
other companies,

745
00:26:47,299 --> 00:26:49,851
is a source code management tool. Right? So

746
00:26:49,851 --> 00:26:51,547
it's a way to basically

747
00:26:52,882 --> 00:26:54,955
verify which control version are you guys on

748
00:26:54,955 --> 00:26:56,731
in the repository. So we're not

749
00:26:57,044 --> 00:26:59,541
putting pieces of code in the wrong version

750
00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:02,077
effectively. So think of it as many of

751
00:27:02,077 --> 00:27:03,755
you might not be developers, but if I've

752
00:27:03,755 --> 00:27:05,999
had this. You're working on 1 document, which

753
00:27:05,999 --> 00:27:07,192
version of the document are you working on?

754
00:27:07,430 --> 00:27:10,134
Yes. It's the same problem. Right? So you

755
00:27:10,134 --> 00:27:11,407
wanna make sure that you're working on the

756
00:27:11,407 --> 00:27:12,044
same version.

757
00:27:12,933 --> 00:27:15,398
And it's properly maintained and sustained.

758
00:27:16,591 --> 00:27:19,056
And if now, we talk about open source

759
00:27:19,056 --> 00:27:21,760
as innovated in business model because again, as

760
00:27:21,760 --> 00:27:22,237
we discussed,

761
00:27:22,969 --> 00:27:25,686
at some point, except some rare exception,

762
00:27:26,246 --> 00:27:28,723
there is a need for some sort of

763
00:27:28,723 --> 00:27:31,200
business model. It should develop the kernel,

764
00:27:32,014 --> 00:27:34,412
You might not do it directly for revenues,

765
00:27:34,731 --> 00:27:36,909
but indirectly, you will sponsor

766
00:27:37,368 --> 00:27:39,846
developers, pay them, or they employed by your

767
00:27:39,846 --> 00:27:40,165
company,

768
00:27:40,818 --> 00:27:42,648
They're are working on the linux kernel because

769
00:27:42,648 --> 00:27:45,352
your company benefit from the linux kernel because

770
00:27:45,352 --> 00:27:46,568
maybe it's building hardware

771
00:27:47,102 --> 00:27:49,672
that needs an operating system. You don't want

772
00:27:49,672 --> 00:27:52,230
to pay fees to Microsoft. And at the

773
00:27:52,230 --> 00:27:54,307
same time you want this linux kernel to

774
00:27:54,307 --> 00:27:56,226
leverage on your hardware. So so you need

775
00:27:56,226 --> 00:27:56,885
to have

776
00:27:57,279 --> 00:27:59,197
people who developed for the kernel.

777
00:28:00,555 --> 00:28:02,872
So that's 1 type of very direct business

778
00:28:02,872 --> 00:28:05,203
for them, but are other types. We talk

779
00:28:05,203 --> 00:28:08,955
briefly about companies like Mongodb That basically does

780
00:28:08,955 --> 00:28:10,951
a business model of hosting.

781
00:28:11,509 --> 00:28:13,585
So, basically, we probably use a source card,

782
00:28:13,839 --> 00:28:16,076
but if you want to have a simplified

783
00:28:16,076 --> 00:28:18,952
hosting solution for it. We are here and

784
00:28:18,952 --> 00:28:20,630
we are going to give you a subscription.

785
00:28:21,283 --> 00:28:23,746
Another typical business model has been 1 support,

786
00:28:23,905 --> 00:28:27,321
Of course, and red hat probably a lot

787
00:28:27,321 --> 00:28:29,307
in there in terms of subscription model.

788
00:28:30,037 --> 00:28:31,704
For what was at the source and open

789
00:28:31,704 --> 00:28:33,768
upon source product, but it typically became a

790
00:28:33,768 --> 00:28:36,467
red distribution. And as they made you paid

791
00:28:36,467 --> 00:28:38,054
the subscription, mostly,

792
00:28:39,104 --> 00:28:41,102
because they will provide you a high level

793
00:28:41,102 --> 00:28:41,841
of service

794
00:28:42,380 --> 00:28:45,896
and more advanced enterprise class type of version

795
00:28:45,896 --> 00:28:46,535
of the products.

796
00:28:47,190 --> 00:28:48,789
That were initially open source.

797
00:28:49,670 --> 00:28:51,830
Open source is supposedly free, but there are

798
00:28:51,830 --> 00:28:53,509
hidden costs. Right? So if you have a

799
00:28:53,509 --> 00:28:54,170
release of

800
00:28:54,484 --> 00:28:56,158
something in open source. The early releases of

801
00:28:56,237 --> 00:28:58,709
Linux were appalling very difficult to maintain. Right?

802
00:28:59,267 --> 00:29:00,781
Or, how do you run for example,

803
00:29:01,339 --> 00:29:02,455
a Ui framework?

804
00:29:03,106 --> 00:29:05,091
Ui framework is, like, you can see windows

805
00:29:05,091 --> 00:29:06,679
in front of you instead of just text

806
00:29:06,679 --> 00:29:09,220
on Linux initially was extremely difficult. Right? So

807
00:29:09,220 --> 00:29:10,967
you'd have to compile it. You'd have to

808
00:29:10,967 --> 00:29:11,523
attach things.

809
00:29:12,412 --> 00:29:14,560
Etcetera, you need to decide which Ui framework

810
00:29:14,560 --> 00:29:15,117
you're using,

811
00:29:15,674 --> 00:29:17,765
and then players like Red Hat with their

812
00:29:17,822 --> 00:29:20,130
distribution simplify that greatly. And created value for

813
00:29:20,130 --> 00:29:20,789
end users

814
00:29:21,259 --> 00:29:22,637
by making these things

815
00:29:23,254 --> 00:29:26,207
automated, more simplified for a regular user to

816
00:29:26,207 --> 00:29:28,521
be able to use at length and therefore,

817
00:29:29,254 --> 00:29:31,488
charged for it as Bet Saying for the

818
00:29:31,488 --> 00:29:33,584
support of the ecosystem and support of their

819
00:29:33,643 --> 00:29:36,196
releases, etcetera. And in some cases, the other

820
00:29:36,196 --> 00:29:38,045
piece enterprise great. Right? You might have something

821
00:29:38,045 --> 00:29:40,117
that's open sourced and it's been compiled and

822
00:29:40,117 --> 00:29:42,190
it works, but it's like, does it have

823
00:29:42,190 --> 00:29:44,422
the right level of optimal security for you.

824
00:29:44,581 --> 00:29:47,459
Yes. And that obviously generates some options for

825
00:29:47,459 --> 00:29:48,834
players to then make money

826
00:29:49,288 --> 00:29:51,434
on top of some of these stacks as

827
00:29:51,434 --> 00:29:53,263
they move along. But by and enlarge as

828
00:29:53,263 --> 00:29:54,138
as Bert said,

829
00:29:54,949 --> 00:29:56,464
People make money out of support or services,

830
00:29:56,783 --> 00:29:59,096
support services, companies like docker, for example, Initially

831
00:29:59,096 --> 00:30:00,372
made a lot of money out of services.

832
00:30:00,930 --> 00:30:03,403
They make money out of other variations of

833
00:30:03,403 --> 00:30:03,961
the software,

834
00:30:04,614 --> 00:30:06,870
as it scales and companies come into that

835
00:30:06,929 --> 00:30:08,844
ecosystem to create sort of bundled versions of

836
00:30:08,844 --> 00:30:11,718
it that are more closed in nature, but

837
00:30:11,718 --> 00:30:12,675
there's ways to make money.

838
00:30:13,408 --> 00:30:15,579
But the ultimate effect is this is

839
00:30:16,352 --> 00:30:18,341
for all mankind. And the reason why it

840
00:30:18,341 --> 00:30:20,194
matters that there is open source software

841
00:30:20,744 --> 00:30:22,105
is think about it. Right? If it's free

842
00:30:22,105 --> 00:30:24,025
at the point of consumption, it allows people

843
00:30:24,025 --> 00:30:26,265
that have less resources companies that have less

844
00:30:26,265 --> 00:30:27,865
resources countries that have less resources,

845
00:30:28,518 --> 00:30:30,501
to be able to use software that is

846
00:30:30,501 --> 00:30:32,325
high quality graded software.

847
00:30:32,959 --> 00:30:35,100
And it allows for people to keep innovating

848
00:30:35,100 --> 00:30:35,838
on software

849
00:30:36,623 --> 00:30:39,245
without necessarily always having the objective of making

850
00:30:39,245 --> 00:30:41,152
money out of it. Right? It's because people

851
00:30:41,152 --> 00:30:41,652
wanna

852
00:30:42,184 --> 00:30:44,568
want contribute back in some ways, the hacker

853
00:30:44,568 --> 00:30:46,675
culture when I was in college, people

854
00:30:47,052 --> 00:30:49,125
had this strong objection to hackers, and we

855
00:30:49,125 --> 00:30:51,117
always used to distinguish between hackers and crackers.

856
00:30:51,356 --> 00:30:52,972
Right? And cracker came from the

857
00:30:53,364 --> 00:30:55,282
from the turn used for Tele systems. Right?

858
00:30:55,442 --> 00:30:57,440
I you tap into Tele systems and get

859
00:30:57,440 --> 00:30:58,159
free calls.

860
00:30:59,118 --> 00:31:00,876
But crackers were the bad guys. Hackers were

861
00:31:00,876 --> 00:31:01,855
not. Hackers

862
00:31:02,249 --> 00:31:03,846
And today we use the White hat, Black

863
00:31:03,846 --> 00:31:06,161
hat term. Right? White hat hackers are the

864
00:31:06,161 --> 00:31:08,396
ones that Identifies shoes and raised them and

865
00:31:08,396 --> 00:31:10,232
maybe get bounties out of it and and

866
00:31:10,232 --> 00:31:11,724
do the proper thing and the black hat

867
00:31:11,844 --> 00:31:13,436
ones are the ones that that make the

868
00:31:13,436 --> 00:31:14,175
news by

869
00:31:14,550 --> 00:31:16,063
taking over services, etcetera?

870
00:31:16,620 --> 00:31:19,326
Yes. And totally, and going back to the

871
00:31:19,326 --> 00:31:21,826
business model then 1 that I found interesting

872
00:31:22,040 --> 00:31:24,421
was used by data breaks where, for instance,

873
00:31:24,579 --> 00:31:26,484
you get the slow version of the software.

874
00:31:26,960 --> 00:31:29,209
Model for free. But if you want the

875
00:31:29,209 --> 00:31:31,523
fast version of the software that has been

876
00:31:31,523 --> 00:31:33,678
optimized for much higher speed, and maybe 10x

877
00:31:33,678 --> 00:31:34,396
x improvement.

878
00:31:35,129 --> 00:31:37,467
Then you have to pay for the data

879
00:31:37,926 --> 00:31:40,004
version. So it's compatible. Api is the same

880
00:31:40,004 --> 00:31:42,881
everything. But the engine itself is much faster,

881
00:31:43,040 --> 00:31:44,970
but you only get the fast engine if

882
00:31:44,970 --> 00:31:47,679
you if you pay your fees. So I

883
00:31:47,679 --> 00:31:49,294
think that was another interesting

884
00:31:49,670 --> 00:31:51,263
innovation. And to go back to your point

885
00:31:51,263 --> 00:31:52,777
about for my mankind,

886
00:31:53,509 --> 00:31:55,904
That's typically also 1 reason why you will

887
00:31:55,904 --> 00:31:58,640
pick open source as a as a strategy

888
00:31:58,778 --> 00:32:01,812
because as a distribution, open source can be

889
00:32:01,812 --> 00:32:02,530
very strong.

890
00:32:03,262 --> 00:32:05,725
Because people get excited because it's free, people

891
00:32:05,725 --> 00:32:07,472
get excited. They want to contribute,

892
00:32:08,028 --> 00:32:10,173
and you don't see enough to potentially pay

893
00:32:10,173 --> 00:32:10,888
the developers.

894
00:32:11,698 --> 00:32:13,791
So it it can be a very writers

895
00:32:13,849 --> 00:32:16,159
model if it finds its its market.

896
00:32:16,796 --> 00:32:19,765
And a very strong alternative to other business

897
00:32:19,903 --> 00:32:20,062
approach.

898
00:32:20,794 --> 00:32:22,968
So open source can truly be not just

899
00:32:23,186 --> 00:32:25,099
a development approach but really a go to

900
00:32:25,099 --> 00:32:25,419
market.

901
00:32:26,296 --> 00:32:28,847
Approach and it's considered 1 of the very

902
00:32:28,847 --> 00:32:29,347
effective

903
00:32:29,899 --> 00:32:32,690
powder led growth, a strategy, open source.

904
00:32:33,568 --> 00:32:36,120
Indeed, moving to open source for the wind.

905
00:32:36,279 --> 00:32:37,338
So the big

906
00:32:37,715 --> 00:32:38,991
achievements of open source.

907
00:32:39,884 --> 00:32:41,400
Already talked about 1, so that's pretty obvious.

908
00:32:41,560 --> 00:32:43,715
So let's get the numbers in. On Linux.

909
00:32:44,274 --> 00:32:46,588
Linux is 1 in servers. I mean, around

910
00:32:46,588 --> 00:32:48,126
97 percent of the

911
00:32:48,439 --> 00:32:50,589
Certainly in web servers, 97 percent of the

912
00:32:50,589 --> 00:32:52,103
top million web servers in into world run

913
00:32:52,183 --> 00:32:54,334
Linux, 97 percent of the top million.

914
00:32:55,210 --> 00:32:56,883
Top 90 percent of the cloud runs on

915
00:32:56,962 --> 00:32:57,281
Linux.

916
00:32:57,934 --> 00:33:00,251
That's what I call a knockout win by

917
00:33:00,411 --> 00:33:02,568
Prince source There's variations on the linux that

918
00:33:02,568 --> 00:33:04,405
are deployed here. There might be some distributions,

919
00:33:04,565 --> 00:33:06,172
but we'll take it as an open source

920
00:33:06,172 --> 00:33:08,000
win. I mean, you use your open source.

921
00:33:08,557 --> 00:33:10,862
And what's amazing? We we talk about git

922
00:33:10,862 --> 00:33:12,713
that is also open source and

923
00:33:13,024 --> 00:33:15,337
could because they part of the internet infrastructure,

924
00:33:15,576 --> 00:33:17,730
or, at least the coding for... The world

925
00:33:17,730 --> 00:33:18,607
coding infrastructure.

926
00:33:19,484 --> 00:33:21,877
But let's talk about some other tools that

927
00:33:21,877 --> 00:33:23,880
you might have earned, that open source,

928
00:33:24,513 --> 00:33:26,812
Python, 1 of the most famous must use

929
00:33:26,812 --> 00:33:28,476
development language. Is open source,

930
00:33:29,269 --> 00:33:30,165
the apache

931
00:33:30,552 --> 00:33:33,089
Http server, which is another part of the

932
00:33:33,089 --> 00:33:33,961
internet infrastructure,

933
00:33:34,516 --> 00:33:35,650
Ng x, the

934
00:33:36,181 --> 00:33:37,449
acceleration caching engine,

935
00:33:38,258 --> 00:33:39,293
is also source.

936
00:33:40,009 --> 00:33:41,760
We have not dot js, which is an

937
00:33:41,760 --> 00:33:42,874
also development language.

938
00:33:43,590 --> 00:33:45,364
In term of database, we have Mongodb,

939
00:33:45,914 --> 00:33:47,849
We talked about, but there is also post.

940
00:33:48,865 --> 00:33:50,858
My sequel has open source version.

941
00:33:51,576 --> 00:33:54,128
And going back to coding our environment, we

942
00:33:54,128 --> 00:33:55,106
have electron

943
00:33:55,419 --> 00:33:58,133
that is open source. React as a front

944
00:33:58,133 --> 00:33:59,351
end development

945
00:34:00,128 --> 00:34:03,002
language is open source. And if we go

946
00:34:03,002 --> 00:34:03,641
to Ai,

947
00:34:04,214 --> 00:34:06,047
It's actually amazing to see how much is

948
00:34:06,047 --> 00:34:07,799
open source. I mean, Python is a part

949
00:34:07,799 --> 00:34:11,168
of most ai project, of course, but Pie,

950
00:34:11,624 --> 00:34:12,124
San,

951
00:34:12,978 --> 00:34:13,377
Ke,

952
00:34:14,189 --> 00:34:16,427
all of this is open source. Anyway, Ai

953
00:34:16,427 --> 00:34:17,566
was such a race

954
00:34:18,025 --> 00:34:21,221
that in order to participate. You better have

955
00:34:21,221 --> 00:34:23,467
to move very fast. Convince users to use

956
00:34:23,467 --> 00:34:26,490
your product and what better ways than to

957
00:34:26,490 --> 00:34:29,195
open source it. Obviously, it's not the case

958
00:34:29,195 --> 00:34:32,471
of K language. So that 1 is actually

959
00:34:32,471 --> 00:34:34,300
not open source and has been developed over

960
00:34:34,300 --> 00:34:36,447
a very long time by Nvidia, and is

961
00:34:36,447 --> 00:34:38,913
still a key competitive advantage for for Nvidia.

962
00:34:39,803 --> 00:34:41,713
And on the consumer side, things that you

963
00:34:41,713 --> 00:34:43,385
use on a daily basis that open sourced.

964
00:34:43,942 --> 00:34:45,534
Firefox if you use it as a browser,

965
00:34:46,091 --> 00:34:47,857
actually, they it came from the Nets cape

966
00:34:47,857 --> 00:34:49,923
opening of the world when the huge fights

967
00:34:49,923 --> 00:34:51,751
with Internet explorer happened and they decide to

968
00:34:51,751 --> 00:34:54,215
open it up. Chromium also came out of

969
00:34:54,215 --> 00:34:56,282
that. Right? Which is Google Chrome uses it.

970
00:34:56,774 --> 00:34:58,528
But Chromium is the open source piece of

971
00:34:58,528 --> 00:35:01,319
it. A signal on the messaging side, bring

972
00:35:01,319 --> 00:35:03,312
the fight back to whatsapp and the the

973
00:35:03,312 --> 00:35:05,146
big Facebook, which is funny because obviously, it

974
00:35:05,146 --> 00:35:05,646
was

975
00:35:06,117 --> 00:35:08,500
largely funded by Brian Act.

976
00:35:09,136 --> 00:35:11,440
Yes. Yeah after you made all that money

977
00:35:11,440 --> 00:35:12,155
with whatsapp app,

978
00:35:13,585 --> 00:35:14,085
yeah

979
00:35:14,554 --> 00:35:16,382
funny how these things happen like Elon musk

980
00:35:16,382 --> 00:35:18,450
with open And stuff, but anyway, we'll get

981
00:35:18,450 --> 00:35:20,676
back to that later. Open office obviously was

982
00:35:20,676 --> 00:35:23,397
a potential alternative in a fight. Being brought

983
00:35:23,397 --> 00:35:25,731
to Microsoft office, Know, maybe less

984
00:35:26,268 --> 00:35:27,784
successful on that side of the fence, But

985
00:35:27,784 --> 00:35:29,001
you have... I'm sure

986
00:35:29,538 --> 00:35:31,293
most of you today would have something open

987
00:35:31,293 --> 00:35:32,823
source that you're using on a regular basis.

988
00:35:32,983 --> 00:35:34,737
So again, even on the consumer side, it's

989
00:35:34,737 --> 00:35:36,433
well noted. It's not just a B2b

990
00:35:37,369 --> 00:35:39,783
kind of tools or platforms

991
00:35:40,160 --> 00:35:41,777
discussion, it's more broadly

992
00:35:42,249 --> 00:35:45,360
than that. We talked about data of closed

993
00:35:45,360 --> 00:35:47,753
source companies that is actually built on top

994
00:35:47,753 --> 00:35:50,145
of an open source product that the initially

995
00:35:50,145 --> 00:35:51,661
built called Ap apache Spark,

996
00:35:52,553 --> 00:35:54,865
Docker was also part open sourced.

997
00:35:55,662 --> 00:35:57,416
Docker scaled on Open source. Right? I mean,

998
00:35:57,496 --> 00:35:58,612
it's like, it was a company that have

999
00:35:58,612 --> 00:36:00,447
was having tremendous difficulties. They scaled.

1000
00:36:01,179 --> 00:36:02,843
On open source and then obviously, they created

1001
00:36:02,843 --> 00:36:04,769
a business model around it to make money

1002
00:36:04,983 --> 00:36:07,202
themselves, but they scaled on Open source. I

1003
00:36:07,202 --> 00:36:07,994
mean, it's incredible.

1004
00:36:08,723 --> 00:36:11,349
And then we have some interesting stories. If

1005
00:36:11,349 --> 00:36:13,498
we take Ai and we'll go deeper in

1006
00:36:13,498 --> 00:36:15,907
in other situation, but 1 pretty

1007
00:36:16,283 --> 00:36:17,476
model, mist,

1008
00:36:18,128 --> 00:36:21,070
pretty new company actually, but already famous in

1009
00:36:21,070 --> 00:36:21,968
term of models

1010
00:36:22,422 --> 00:36:24,569
shared in an open source way under the

1011
00:36:24,808 --> 00:36:25,762
Apache 2 license.

1012
00:36:26,572 --> 00:36:28,320
3, open source models,

1013
00:36:29,114 --> 00:36:31,815
7B8X7BAT,

1014
00:36:31,974 --> 00:36:32,848
are 20 to b.

1015
00:36:33,659 --> 00:36:35,813
That are usable and customizable visible for a

1016
00:36:35,813 --> 00:36:36,771
lot of use cases.

1017
00:36:37,489 --> 00:36:39,723
And again, we see open source goes, of

1018
00:36:39,723 --> 00:36:40,920
course, with a business model,

1019
00:36:41,494 --> 00:36:44,282
If you want to use the optimized the

1020
00:36:44,282 --> 00:36:44,760
commercial models,

1021
00:36:45,318 --> 00:36:47,150
then you have to pay and the commercial

1022
00:36:47,150 --> 00:36:49,381
business models them are not open source, and

1023
00:36:49,381 --> 00:36:50,815
you you will buy them because they are

1024
00:36:50,815 --> 00:36:52,425
more efficient higher performance.

1025
00:36:53,063 --> 00:36:56,732
They have track capabilities, easily available hosted. So

1026
00:36:56,732 --> 00:36:59,204
we can see that even with new L,

1027
00:36:59,524 --> 00:37:02,406
Ai is trying to find its way. Open

1028
00:37:02,406 --> 00:37:04,634
source is trying to find its new definition

1029
00:37:04,634 --> 00:37:06,463
in a way, we say Ion algorithms.

1030
00:37:07,099 --> 00:37:10,621
So exciting times, obviously, open sources 1 in

1031
00:37:10,621 --> 00:37:11,121
many

1032
00:37:11,579 --> 00:37:13,253
dimensions, and I think the world is better

1033
00:37:13,253 --> 00:37:14,849
off because of it and companies have been

1034
00:37:14,849 --> 00:37:16,603
built on top of this notion of there's

1035
00:37:16,603 --> 00:37:17,934
an open source component in

1036
00:37:18,453 --> 00:37:18,953
ecosystem

1037
00:37:19,409 --> 00:37:21,880
building piece around it, but then there's pieces

1038
00:37:21,880 --> 00:37:24,669
that are maybe less well framed. Maybe as

1039
00:37:24,669 --> 00:37:25,465
the last example,

1040
00:37:26,039 --> 00:37:27,955
Android. I mean, now Android just to be

1041
00:37:27,955 --> 00:37:28,115
clear,

1042
00:37:28,913 --> 00:37:30,430
as a trademark owned by Google.

1043
00:37:32,107 --> 00:37:33,703
So if you put Android in your device,

1044
00:37:33,943 --> 00:37:36,828
Google saying this is Google approved. Okay? Now

1045
00:37:37,146 --> 00:37:38,976
Android as a project behind it, which is

1046
00:37:38,976 --> 00:37:42,158
the Android open source project, a os s

1047
00:37:42,158 --> 00:37:42,317
p.

1048
00:37:43,048 --> 00:37:44,557
Where you can pick up the kernel. Right?

1049
00:37:44,717 --> 00:37:46,703
So what makes it run effectively and a

1050
00:37:46,703 --> 00:37:48,394
variety of other pieces around it

1051
00:37:48,768 --> 00:37:51,410
and fork it as we discussed before, create

1052
00:37:51,410 --> 00:37:52,766
a new version of it and go your

1053
00:37:52,766 --> 00:37:54,601
own separate. There's a couple of players who

1054
00:37:54,601 --> 00:37:57,233
have done that. More recently, you know, Huawei

1055
00:37:57,233 --> 00:37:58,668
is at to go full fork because of

1056
00:37:58,668 --> 00:38:00,778
the issues we know happened in the Us

1057
00:38:01,074 --> 00:38:02,666
where Google was not allowed to give them

1058
00:38:02,666 --> 00:38:03,144
a license.

1059
00:38:03,780 --> 00:38:06,726
And so part of Android is is open

1060
00:38:06,726 --> 00:38:07,442
source clearly.

1061
00:38:08,413 --> 00:38:09,929
At its very core. And there are pieces

1062
00:38:09,929 --> 00:38:11,683
of it, even some device drivers, etcetera, they're

1063
00:38:11,683 --> 00:38:14,076
open source as. So there is an ecosystem

1064
00:38:14,076 --> 00:38:16,629
around it. There are device manufacturers that, you

1065
00:38:16,629 --> 00:38:18,659
know, make a living around sort of

1066
00:38:19,194 --> 00:38:21,744
variations, very strong variations on that on that

1067
00:38:21,744 --> 00:38:23,974
project on the Ao p. Now there are

1068
00:38:23,974 --> 00:38:25,829
pieces of Andrew android that are absolutely

1069
00:38:26,205 --> 00:38:26,524
closed.

1070
00:38:27,894 --> 00:38:29,655
And the way I think Google did it

1071
00:38:29,655 --> 00:38:31,255
is... To be honest for me it's clean,

1072
00:38:31,494 --> 00:38:32,934
I think some people will probably disagree,

1073
00:38:33,574 --> 00:38:36,064
but it's clean. In Google when they launched

1074
00:38:36,462 --> 00:38:37,360
Android, they

1075
00:38:37,896 --> 00:38:39,489
launched, I think it was the open and

1076
00:38:39,489 --> 00:38:41,855
set line. So O wei. Right? Around Android

1077
00:38:41,974 --> 00:38:43,170
to really make sure that it was gonna

1078
00:38:43,170 --> 00:38:45,744
be an open source. Yes. Sorry yeah. For

1079
00:38:46,280 --> 00:38:49,311
operating system etcetera, etcetera. But then obviously, Google's

1080
00:38:49,391 --> 00:38:51,246
Google. So there's pieces of

1081
00:38:51,559 --> 00:38:53,792
that you guys were that are using Android

1082
00:38:53,792 --> 00:38:56,026
today when your mobile devices are running which

1083
00:38:56,026 --> 00:38:58,737
are not open. Right? Obviously, some of the

1084
00:38:58,737 --> 00:39:00,572
apps clearly are not open, like the snapshots

1085
00:39:00,572 --> 00:39:02,983
of the world etcetera. But even 1 level

1086
00:39:02,983 --> 00:39:05,939
below the Google Mobile services and the Google

1087
00:39:05,939 --> 00:39:08,975
play services piece. So the Google play services

1088
00:39:08,975 --> 00:39:11,060
piece is what Google play implemented on the

1089
00:39:11,060 --> 00:39:13,206
ability to develop the your own apps on

1090
00:39:13,206 --> 00:39:14,183
top of that framework

1091
00:39:14,954 --> 00:39:16,862
is on Guy Google just shockingly enough.

1092
00:39:17,595 --> 00:39:20,394
And Google Mobile services, which includes core services

1093
00:39:20,394 --> 00:39:22,155
that you guys all probably use as well,

1094
00:39:23,994 --> 00:39:25,994
like Google Play itself, the App store,

1095
00:39:26,568 --> 00:39:29,355
Google Chrome, etcetera is owned by Google as

1096
00:39:29,355 --> 00:39:31,845
well. And so for you to run Gm,

1097
00:39:32,539 --> 00:39:34,233
this is the issue that App Huawei

1098
00:39:34,624 --> 00:39:36,162
you know, Google has to have a licensing

1099
00:39:36,221 --> 00:39:38,137
agreement with you. Right? And that's what allows

1100
00:39:38,137 --> 00:39:39,813
you to then say I'm running Android. Because

1101
00:39:39,813 --> 00:39:42,947
as I said before, Android is a trademark

1102
00:39:43,006 --> 00:39:43,565
owned by Google.

1103
00:39:45,096 --> 00:39:46,849
So it's open on certain sense. You all.

1104
00:39:47,009 --> 00:39:48,922
It's closed on others, but, in know, it's

1105
00:39:48,922 --> 00:39:50,916
running the world now. So it's doing what

1106
00:39:50,995 --> 00:39:52,111
Linux did on the server side.

1107
00:39:52,844 --> 00:39:54,440
It's doing the same in mobile devices. Right?

1108
00:39:54,759 --> 00:39:56,515
Obviously, the world is mostly running on Android

1109
00:39:56,515 --> 00:39:58,909
today or a variation of it of the

1110
00:39:58,909 --> 00:40:00,505
a os p.

1111
00:40:01,396 --> 00:40:03,942
Yes. And we saw going into 2 complex

1112
00:40:03,942 --> 00:40:06,248
stuff if you build for instance a handset

1113
00:40:06,248 --> 00:40:07,362
on the base of thunder,

1114
00:40:08,171 --> 00:40:10,710
So first, we just said that some services,

1115
00:40:10,947 --> 00:40:13,089
Google services might not be available if you

1116
00:40:13,089 --> 00:40:15,469
don't comply with some Google request.

1117
00:40:16,198 --> 00:40:18,261
But also some Google Apps might not be

1118
00:40:18,261 --> 00:40:18,658
available.

1119
00:40:19,293 --> 00:40:20,721
You might not be able to have a

1120
00:40:21,117 --> 00:40:22,863
Youtube, Gmail and other stuff.

1121
00:40:23,513 --> 00:40:26,609
So that could be huge trouble. So so

1122
00:40:26,609 --> 00:40:28,832
in a way, even if the operating system

1123
00:40:28,832 --> 00:40:31,214
is itself is free and unavailable and the

1124
00:40:31,214 --> 00:40:31,714
cola,

1125
00:40:32,659 --> 00:40:34,414
if you want to be successful in the

1126
00:40:34,414 --> 00:40:34,914
marketplace

1127
00:40:35,769 --> 00:40:38,003
with device using android,

1128
00:40:38,880 --> 00:40:41,512
you better follow the different guidelines that Google

1129
00:40:41,512 --> 00:40:42,445
is giving you

1130
00:40:43,282 --> 00:40:44,956
in order to have their apps in start

1131
00:40:44,956 --> 00:40:46,471
to have Google Play and even to have

1132
00:40:46,471 --> 00:40:49,021
some apps compatible because if you you don't

1133
00:40:49,021 --> 00:40:50,775
have this Google Mobile services,

1134
00:40:51,188 --> 00:40:53,257
that might be really big trouble for the

1135
00:40:53,257 --> 00:40:55,723
success of your device. And and I was

1136
00:40:55,723 --> 00:40:56,917
on the other end of a couple of

1137
00:40:56,917 --> 00:40:59,463
very significant negotiations with Google back in the

1138
00:40:59,463 --> 00:40:59,622
day.

1139
00:41:00,273 --> 00:41:02,182
Early days and how it... And it's been

1140
00:41:02,182 --> 00:41:03,455
always a little bit tricky.

1141
00:41:04,092 --> 00:41:05,842
So it's not totally clean, but I would

1142
00:41:05,842 --> 00:41:06,580
still say

1143
00:41:07,686 --> 00:41:10,632
for the most, it's an interesting ecosystem. That

1144
00:41:10,632 --> 00:41:12,702
has worked relatively well for all involved,

1145
00:41:13,338 --> 00:41:15,582
Even when Google now is competing right, Through

1146
00:41:15,582 --> 00:41:18,368
several acquisitions like the Hcc smartphone team and

1147
00:41:18,368 --> 00:41:19,323
that sort of...

1148
00:41:20,039 --> 00:41:21,313
We wanted it, but we don't really want

1149
00:41:21,313 --> 00:41:22,131
it. Motorola

1150
00:41:22,507 --> 00:41:22,587
acquisition.

1151
00:41:23,874 --> 00:41:25,304
Where got a bunch of bat.

1152
00:41:26,098 --> 00:41:27,687
And so I think they've done a pretty

1153
00:41:27,687 --> 00:41:29,538
good job, but maybe switching to

1154
00:41:30,404 --> 00:41:30,963
to lies.

1155
00:41:31,680 --> 00:41:33,834
Lies when open is not open, but it's

1156
00:41:33,834 --> 00:41:35,588
more of a moat or a bridge fore

1157
00:41:35,588 --> 00:41:37,822
clothes as I call it. Yes. I mean,

1158
00:41:38,221 --> 00:41:40,077
not wanting to point fingers

1159
00:41:40,548 --> 00:41:42,862
too hard. I mean, business Microsoft.

1160
00:41:43,820 --> 00:41:46,532
Yeah. So on this 1, if you're old

1161
00:41:46,532 --> 00:41:48,404
enough to remember the the old

1162
00:41:48,941 --> 00:41:49,579
Microsoft approach,

1163
00:41:50,297 --> 00:41:52,133
embrace, extend, ex,

1164
00:41:52,931 --> 00:41:54,766
to open source and open standards.

1165
00:41:55,499 --> 00:41:57,257
That was in the late nineties early in

1166
00:41:57,257 --> 00:41:59,095
2 thousands, At least it was alleged that

1167
00:41:59,654 --> 00:42:00,932
Microsoft had this behavior.

1168
00:42:01,572 --> 00:42:02,930
And if we on acronyms acrylics that there

1169
00:42:02,930 --> 00:42:05,418
were many name is connected to Microsoft, like

1170
00:42:05,418 --> 00:42:07,490
food, fear uncertainty and adapt,

1171
00:42:08,526 --> 00:42:10,519
presenting Vapor power way in order to block

1172
00:42:10,519 --> 00:42:11,396
your competitors.

1173
00:42:11,969 --> 00:42:13,240
So at the time that there was a

1174
00:42:13,240 --> 00:42:16,498
lot of approaches of Microsoft that were were

1175
00:42:16,498 --> 00:42:19,598
not so great business oriented, but definitely not

1176
00:42:19,598 --> 00:42:20,495
very friendly

1177
00:42:21,124 --> 00:42:22,482
So at at the end of the day,

1178
00:42:22,722 --> 00:42:22,882
yes.

1179
00:42:23,601 --> 00:42:25,278
Microsoft has been accused in the past by

1180
00:42:25,278 --> 00:42:27,595
a lot of open source promoter companies.

1181
00:42:28,249 --> 00:42:30,081
To have a very negative approach to open

1182
00:42:30,161 --> 00:42:32,153
Source. I think it does change. I don't

1183
00:42:32,153 --> 00:42:35,022
think the new Microsoft is representative of the

1184
00:42:35,022 --> 00:42:35,522
old

1185
00:42:35,834 --> 00:42:37,501
I mean a great example you talk about

1186
00:42:37,580 --> 00:42:40,993
Github github was acquired by Microsoft a years

1187
00:42:40,993 --> 00:42:42,898
ago. In a way to was a litmus

1188
00:42:42,898 --> 00:42:45,144
test for for the Open source community because

1189
00:42:45,144 --> 00:42:47,377
so many new open source projects were hosted

1190
00:42:47,377 --> 00:42:47,936
on Github.

1191
00:42:48,653 --> 00:42:50,647
And I will say it flourished, and

1192
00:42:51,126 --> 00:42:53,141
Microsoft norway way has proven that it's

1193
00:42:53,693 --> 00:42:55,687
Very supportive of Open source project.

1194
00:42:56,804 --> 00:42:59,436
Microsoft visual studio cut for instance, ease an

1195
00:42:59,436 --> 00:43:02,467
open source project under a second development world

1196
00:43:02,467 --> 00:43:02,945
by storm,

1197
00:43:03,920 --> 00:43:06,079
I'm seeing impressed how so many developers are

1198
00:43:06,079 --> 00:43:07,699
using it, even people who

1199
00:43:08,239 --> 00:43:10,239
might not have said good things about Microsoft

1200
00:43:10,239 --> 00:43:12,800
years ago. So it has been a revolution.

1201
00:43:13,214 --> 00:43:15,208
The old Microsoft 20 years ago was not

1202
00:43:15,208 --> 00:43:17,521
a friend of Open source. But now it's...

1203
00:43:18,239 --> 00:43:20,233
At least it's not an enemy me. Just

1204
00:43:20,233 --> 00:43:22,226
to explain to our listeners, the embrace extend

1205
00:43:22,226 --> 00:43:24,952
and ex Right? It was based on a

1206
00:43:24,952 --> 00:43:28,322
memo written internally at Microsoft, which shed embrace

1207
00:43:28,380 --> 00:43:31,090
extend and and innovate. This secret came as

1208
00:43:31,090 --> 00:43:33,655
a as an adaptation for the trial. Yes.

1209
00:43:34,452 --> 00:43:34,952
And

1210
00:43:35,409 --> 00:43:37,720
embraces basically, you go into a technology stack,

1211
00:43:37,959 --> 00:43:38,858
open source

1212
00:43:39,249 --> 00:43:40,923
You embrace that you're part of the community.

1213
00:43:41,242 --> 00:43:44,111
You do commits. You involve your engineers, you

1214
00:43:44,111 --> 00:43:46,104
do stuff back etcetera. The extent is then

1215
00:43:46,104 --> 00:43:48,193
you pick up from there, And you start

1216
00:43:48,193 --> 00:43:50,990
extending functionality, creating your own functionality, the fork

1217
00:43:50,990 --> 00:43:52,109
piece I was mentioning earlier,

1218
00:43:52,668 --> 00:43:55,065
Creating your own functionality, added features, etcetera.

1219
00:43:56,117 --> 00:43:58,901
That go well beyond the core capabilities of

1220
00:43:58,901 --> 00:44:01,765
the initial repo code basis that you were

1221
00:44:01,765 --> 00:44:02,083
using.

1222
00:44:02,815 --> 00:44:04,494
And then the extra goes without saying what

1223
00:44:04,494 --> 00:44:06,494
it is. Right? Once you have the extra

1224
00:44:06,494 --> 00:44:07,934
features you're like, I close this and now

1225
00:44:07,934 --> 00:44:08,335
you have to pay.

1226
00:44:09,215 --> 00:44:10,675
So and so

1227
00:44:11,135 --> 00:44:13,247
I would ledge Maybe have a slight

1228
00:44:13,625 --> 00:44:17,373
agreement with them it's nuance agreement with Ver.

1229
00:44:17,932 --> 00:44:19,846
I think they've changed their ways. They're maybe

1230
00:44:19,846 --> 00:44:21,681
slow pacing us as well. Right? On Github,

1231
00:44:22,174 --> 00:44:23,533
think what they're doing with Open Ai right

1232
00:44:23,533 --> 00:44:24,512
now is magically

1233
00:44:25,930 --> 00:44:28,108
looking a lot like appropriation of

1234
00:44:28,567 --> 00:44:30,265
something that initially was an open

1235
00:44:30,659 --> 00:44:32,654
Not an open source project, but an an

1236
00:44:32,654 --> 00:44:34,729
an open project for the benefit of humanity.

1237
00:44:35,048 --> 00:44:37,123
Obviously, there's the case in court that Elon

1238
00:44:37,123 --> 00:44:37,921
has taken him to court.

1239
00:44:38,735 --> 00:44:40,655
Because he obviously funded them originally and he

1240
00:44:40,655 --> 00:44:42,014
was like this is not what... I funded

1241
00:44:42,014 --> 00:44:43,855
you guys for. Now they're acquiring a lot

1242
00:44:43,855 --> 00:44:46,255
of stuff around the stack, right? Inflection, etcetera.

1243
00:44:46,414 --> 00:44:48,268
So. I don't know if they're slow pacing

1244
00:44:48,268 --> 00:44:49,407
us or not, I'll give

1245
00:44:49,786 --> 00:44:51,963
Satya a walk on that and

1246
00:44:52,342 --> 00:44:54,715
suspension of disbelief, but I don't know. It's

1247
00:44:54,834 --> 00:44:56,827
always the same name that we talk about

1248
00:44:56,827 --> 00:44:59,297
from the late 80 Well, even before. Right?

1249
00:44:59,456 --> 00:45:01,847
So eighties, late seventies, eighties, nineties,

1250
00:45:02,819 --> 00:45:05,054
Na. It's... Microsoft keeps coming back. So I'm

1251
00:45:05,054 --> 00:45:07,369
not sure if it's in the ethos of

1252
00:45:07,369 --> 00:45:08,188
the company

1253
00:45:09,922 --> 00:45:10,401
or not.

1254
00:45:12,089 --> 00:45:14,395
And if I remember, actually, long, long time

1255
00:45:14,395 --> 00:45:16,463
ago, maybe was it in the eighties, but

1256
00:45:16,542 --> 00:45:18,530
Bill gates was famous to write a letter,

1257
00:45:18,928 --> 00:45:20,598
explaining how bad was open source.

1258
00:45:21,328 --> 00:45:23,478
That was d a long time ago. So,

1259
00:45:23,637 --> 00:45:26,503
yeah, It's a long debate. The browser Wars.

1260
00:45:26,662 --> 00:45:28,494
There been so many of these things that

1261
00:45:28,494 --> 00:45:30,894
have happened. Right? I mean, it's incredible. It's

1262
00:45:30,894 --> 00:45:32,882
as long as a fight with between Apple

1263
00:45:32,882 --> 00:45:36,062
and Microsoft I guess, the fight between Microsoft

1264
00:45:36,062 --> 00:45:36,777
and Open source.

1265
00:45:37,429 --> 00:45:39,829
I think there has been significant improvements, but

1266
00:45:39,829 --> 00:45:42,309
it's not as if Microsoft is fully embracing.

1267
00:45:43,030 --> 00:45:45,590
Open sources are built on open source.

1268
00:45:46,323 --> 00:45:47,857
As sat being

1269
00:45:49,664 --> 00:45:52,630
like Aws. You are talking about open

1270
00:45:53,258 --> 00:45:55,003
We said on Musk. I mean, definitely, it's

1271
00:45:55,003 --> 00:45:56,590
a weird are named for a company that

1272
00:45:56,590 --> 00:45:58,890
is anything but top. That's not open.

1273
00:46:00,001 --> 00:46:01,773
For I don't know. Your chips in the

1274
00:46:01,773 --> 00:46:04,090
package, like, you know, healthy good food. No.

1275
00:46:04,251 --> 00:46:07,047
It's not healthy how good to eat cheap

1276
00:46:07,047 --> 00:46:09,126
ordering drink coke, but them they call himself

1277
00:46:09,126 --> 00:46:09,765
open an ai.

1278
00:46:10,577 --> 00:46:12,884
I don't care except that it feels very

1279
00:46:12,884 --> 00:46:15,690
much like marketing that is... I mean, basically

1280
00:46:15,906 --> 00:46:18,470
lie, and obviously the first and the most

1281
00:46:18,470 --> 00:46:21,340
important shoulders of open and the 1 who

1282
00:46:21,340 --> 00:46:23,014
help attract some of the best talent to

1283
00:46:23,014 --> 00:46:26,538
open, disagree as well with saw and phil

1284
00:46:26,538 --> 00:46:29,171
he has been chi. So Elon Musk final

1285
00:46:29,171 --> 00:46:32,146
lawsuit suit recently in March against open.

1286
00:46:32,603 --> 00:46:33,821
And actually he

1287
00:46:34,213 --> 00:46:36,201
even said that if you guys rename the

1288
00:46:36,201 --> 00:46:38,188
company closed their eyes, and I I will

1289
00:46:38,188 --> 00:46:39,142
stop buying the side.

1290
00:46:40,811 --> 00:46:42,737
This call closed there. So we can see

1291
00:46:42,737 --> 00:46:44,813
the power of a name. He can have

1292
00:46:44,813 --> 00:46:46,729
in the public's mind. And just to be

1293
00:46:46,729 --> 00:46:48,166
clear, opening out to my knowledge was not

1294
00:46:48,166 --> 00:46:49,683
of a an open source project. Right? It

1295
00:46:49,683 --> 00:46:51,454
was a non profit. It still is It's

1296
00:46:51,454 --> 00:46:53,289
a non profit. It was a non nonprofit.

1297
00:46:53,528 --> 00:46:55,204
It's always been a profit. It still is.

1298
00:46:55,683 --> 00:46:57,460
It just happens that now the non profit

1299
00:46:57,518 --> 00:46:59,129
has a a for profit below it.

1300
00:47:01,047 --> 00:47:02,804
Yes. That was created afterwards. As I said,

1301
00:47:02,964 --> 00:47:04,242
I've been involved in something like this in

1302
00:47:04,242 --> 00:47:05,680
the past It's not as shocking as it

1303
00:47:05,680 --> 00:47:08,007
may seem? It sometimes happens, but it was

1304
00:47:08,007 --> 00:47:09,600
never open source. Right? So it's open in

1305
00:47:09,600 --> 00:47:11,273
the sense It was a profit for the

1306
00:47:11,273 --> 00:47:13,423
benefit of mankind kind of thing. And when

1307
00:47:13,423 --> 00:47:16,067
you accept donation in that context, I can

1308
00:47:16,067 --> 00:47:18,561
imagine how it might be to see suddenly.

1309
00:47:19,577 --> 00:47:21,491
Everyone trying to make huge money out of

1310
00:47:21,491 --> 00:47:24,522
it. Actually, sam Admin is not you're making

1311
00:47:24,522 --> 00:47:26,611
any money, but given is not a shoulder,

1312
00:47:26,850 --> 00:47:29,105
but I understand that he has a way

1313
00:47:29,163 --> 00:47:32,274
to leverage his open ai position to build

1314
00:47:32,274 --> 00:47:35,225
other stuff brown and then indirectly benefit.

1315
00:47:35,796 --> 00:47:37,858
What's surprising is that? Yeah. A lot of

1316
00:47:37,858 --> 00:47:40,555
general public even developers houses us might think

1317
00:47:40,555 --> 00:47:42,617
that is something open. But as far as

1318
00:47:42,697 --> 00:47:44,855
I know there is not much if anything

1319
00:47:44,855 --> 00:47:46,523
open. There has been some tools that Have

1320
00:47:46,523 --> 00:47:48,271
been open source, I believe by Open ai.

1321
00:47:48,906 --> 00:47:51,472
But ultimately, the core of the the company

1322
00:47:51,846 --> 00:47:52,958
is not open.

1323
00:47:53,609 --> 00:47:56,079
So another company, and this time, I would

1324
00:47:56,079 --> 00:47:58,151
say that they are much, much closer to

1325
00:47:58,151 --> 00:47:58,890
being open

1326
00:47:59,267 --> 00:48:01,042
and being closed this matter

1327
00:48:01,434 --> 00:48:05,290
with Lam sri, Lam 2. They have released

1328
00:48:05,429 --> 00:48:07,826
the weights. So not the source, but the

1329
00:48:07,826 --> 00:48:08,326
weights

1330
00:48:08,719 --> 00:48:11,670
of the red lamps. So basically, anyone can

1331
00:48:11,670 --> 00:48:14,541
run it. They have put a few restrictions

1332
00:48:14,541 --> 00:48:16,536
that limits you if you have hundreds of

1333
00:48:16,536 --> 00:48:17,992
millions of users

1334
00:48:18,703 --> 00:48:20,605
There are some other specific conditions.

1335
00:48:21,318 --> 00:48:22,214
So ultimately,

1336
00:48:22,744 --> 00:48:24,726
there are some constraints. So it cannot meet

1337
00:48:24,726 --> 00:48:25,226
any

1338
00:48:26,649 --> 00:48:27,608
definition of open source,

1339
00:48:28,327 --> 00:48:30,585
but I will argue that it can certainly

1340
00:48:30,724 --> 00:48:33,280
claim some level of openness that is very

1341
00:48:33,280 --> 00:48:33,760
valuable.

1342
00:48:34,654 --> 00:48:36,353
Especially in the interface of for Ban

1343
00:48:36,732 --> 00:48:38,570
and also close source initiatives.

1344
00:48:39,369 --> 00:48:41,367
Yeah. I was just at a session with

1345
00:48:41,527 --> 00:48:43,065
Christmas Scene right who obviously

1346
00:48:43,619 --> 00:48:45,773
is still credits with having invented the Hashtag.

1347
00:48:46,012 --> 00:48:47,230
And it's like, yeah.

1348
00:48:47,926 --> 00:48:49,442
When Meta talks about this, but then there's

1349
00:48:49,442 --> 00:48:51,515
a limit on how many users you have,

1350
00:48:51,595 --> 00:48:52,552
is it really open?

1351
00:48:53,524 --> 00:48:54,182
And then

1352
00:48:55,192 --> 00:48:57,415
the stuff that doing around mixed reality and

1353
00:48:57,415 --> 00:48:59,798
augmented reality now. I'm not sure I fully

1354
00:48:59,798 --> 00:49:01,172
trust that this is an open

1355
00:49:01,545 --> 00:49:02,498
sourced and endeavor.

1356
00:49:03,149 --> 00:49:05,142
I mean, it is for scalability purposes.

1357
00:49:05,859 --> 00:49:07,852
I don't know if it's an embrace extend

1358
00:49:07,852 --> 00:49:10,403
an ex playbook play, but it feels of

1359
00:49:10,403 --> 00:49:12,647
it like that. Feels of it like, let's

1360
00:49:12,647 --> 00:49:13,863
sort of run

1361
00:49:14,874 --> 00:49:17,022
the open source gamut in the playbook and

1362
00:49:17,022 --> 00:49:18,056
then see where we had.

1363
00:49:18,710 --> 00:49:20,230
In worst case if it fails miserably it

1364
00:49:20,230 --> 00:49:22,329
fails miserably if it works well, then

1365
00:49:23,030 --> 00:49:23,769
I can't

1366
00:49:24,070 --> 00:49:26,550
possibly think that they won't take over the

1367
00:49:26,550 --> 00:49:26,869
ecosystem.

1368
00:49:27,684 --> 00:49:29,605
It's tough to say me. I'm just judging

1369
00:49:29,605 --> 00:49:31,765
based on the license of the current product.

1370
00:49:32,085 --> 00:49:34,164
App apparently are remorse that the they 1

1371
00:49:34,164 --> 00:49:36,251
shares the weights of the new version with

1372
00:49:36,251 --> 00:49:37,704
huge number of parameters.

1373
00:49:38,555 --> 00:49:40,939
So Lam 3 might be the last version

1374
00:49:40,939 --> 00:49:42,869
or maybe will have different branch

1375
00:49:43,322 --> 00:49:45,964
version I don't know sami here more them

1376
00:49:45,964 --> 00:49:47,477
based on what he is for sure. There

1377
00:49:47,477 --> 00:49:49,092
is no source code. So

1378
00:49:49,468 --> 00:49:51,459
again, it's not open source, but there is

1379
00:49:51,459 --> 00:49:53,946
open weight. And it's huge because it means

1380
00:49:53,946 --> 00:49:57,538
that in a lot of use cases, 99.9

1381
00:49:57,538 --> 00:49:59,454
percent of use cases, you you can use

1382
00:49:59,454 --> 00:50:01,622
that and pay no license for its I

1383
00:50:01,622 --> 00:50:03,924
would take it as a huge win, and

1384
00:50:03,924 --> 00:50:05,297
it's definitely challenging

1385
00:50:05,908 --> 00:50:07,654
the the open area of the world and

1386
00:50:07,654 --> 00:50:10,049
others because I mean, when you see the

1387
00:50:10,049 --> 00:50:13,141
investment from meta to build release to build

1388
00:50:13,141 --> 00:50:15,519
these models. I mean, we're talking about hundreds

1389
00:50:15,519 --> 00:50:16,074
of millions,

1390
00:50:16,882 --> 00:50:18,255
and probably sooner in.

1391
00:50:18,628 --> 00:50:20,849
So it's not a small gift. It cost

1392
00:50:20,849 --> 00:50:23,174
real money, so I cannot

1393
00:50:23,705 --> 00:50:26,427
complain if meta as a business strategy with

1394
00:50:26,427 --> 00:50:29,064
that. And as we have seen, most open

1395
00:50:29,064 --> 00:50:31,800
source companies have to have a business strategy

1396
00:50:32,353 --> 00:50:33,864
to keep it sustainable.

1397
00:50:34,659 --> 00:50:37,283
For the user piece, the mix ready approach,

1398
00:50:37,442 --> 00:50:38,420
meta Horizon

1399
00:50:38,794 --> 00:50:39,828
and Horizon store.

1400
00:50:40,717 --> 00:50:43,181
Here, I'm less clear about what's you.

1401
00:50:43,816 --> 00:50:46,359
So this 1 is certainly stretching it. As

1402
00:50:46,359 --> 00:50:48,107
there might be some openness in the sense

1403
00:50:48,107 --> 00:50:50,986
that now you can access the store more

1404
00:50:50,986 --> 00:50:52,021
easily as a developer,

1405
00:50:52,659 --> 00:50:54,570
You are not relegated gated to a lab

1406
00:50:54,570 --> 00:50:57,516
section of The app store for the quest.

1407
00:50:58,248 --> 00:50:58,567
Headset,

1408
00:50:59,205 --> 00:51:01,597
and they are going to license. Their operating

1409
00:51:01,597 --> 00:51:04,946
system to other manufacturers. So so in the

1410
00:51:04,946 --> 00:51:06,243
sense of windows is

1411
00:51:07,034 --> 00:51:08,710
So so this 1, you can love as

1412
00:51:08,710 --> 00:51:10,786
much as you want about the openness, I

1413
00:51:10,786 --> 00:51:13,020
guess. To be clear I'm not judging every

1414
00:51:13,020 --> 00:51:14,776
company has to have a business strategy.

1415
00:51:15,509 --> 00:51:17,347
What you can, however, as a have an

1416
00:51:17,347 --> 00:51:19,445
opinion like I have I believe is

1417
00:51:19,903 --> 00:51:21,820
what what's the marketing you use to call

1418
00:51:21,820 --> 00:51:22,481
it open

1419
00:51:22,794 --> 00:51:25,104
when it's fully closed in every way,

1420
00:51:25,821 --> 00:51:28,291
but you are open to having third party

1421
00:51:28,291 --> 00:51:29,486
licensing your product.

1422
00:51:30,217 --> 00:51:33,152
That's a bit much on the openness. But

1423
00:51:33,231 --> 00:51:36,983
I guess you know what, consumers, developers companies

1424
00:51:37,356 --> 00:51:40,238
just have to love things through the marketing.

1425
00:51:40,637 --> 00:51:42,870
But again, I will take what is really

1426
00:51:42,870 --> 00:51:45,024
open and be happy about it. I think

1427
00:51:45,024 --> 00:51:46,778
that on the mix reality side, it's a

1428
00:51:46,778 --> 00:51:49,984
good strategy be frank. For Facebook to license

1429
00:51:49,984 --> 00:51:50,462
their product,

1430
00:51:51,100 --> 00:51:52,855
to be even better if they don't push

1431
00:51:52,855 --> 00:51:54,928
it too much on the marketing side. Yeah.

1432
00:51:55,167 --> 00:51:56,762
They keeps talking about it like it's open

1433
00:51:56,762 --> 00:51:58,531
as well, and it's not. Right? I mean,

1434
00:51:58,611 --> 00:51:59,966
it's not that definition of open.

1435
00:52:01,560 --> 00:52:03,393
And and it's true already with Lam. Right?

1436
00:52:03,552 --> 00:52:04,907
I mean, Llama 2 etcetera. I mean,

1437
00:52:05,878 --> 00:52:08,106
their special licenses there's limits on what you

1438
00:52:08,106 --> 00:52:08,765
can do

1439
00:52:09,458 --> 00:52:10,492
ton of limits. So it's like,

1440
00:52:11,447 --> 00:52:13,932
not tons limits. It not too much. I

1441
00:52:13,932 --> 00:52:15,688
mean, come on, P, it's used for training

1442
00:52:15,688 --> 00:52:16,645
other language models.

1443
00:52:17,364 --> 00:52:19,119
Requires a special license for deployment in App

1444
00:52:19,119 --> 00:52:21,606
service with more than 7000000 daily users, basically

1445
00:52:21,606 --> 00:52:24,389
means the big competitors. Right? It means Google

1446
00:52:24,389 --> 00:52:26,139
cannot use it, but if you're not Google,

1447
00:52:26,218 --> 00:52:27,808
you can. And then they can change the

1448
00:52:27,808 --> 00:52:30,114
license tomorrow, it's not 700000000. It's it's a

1449
00:52:30,114 --> 00:52:30,432
hundred.

1450
00:52:31,083 --> 00:52:33,072
No. No. No No. Yes they cannot change

1451
00:52:33,072 --> 00:52:34,981
the license. I mean Lam 2 as is

1452
00:52:34,981 --> 00:52:37,526
for future versions of Lam, they can. Sure.

1453
00:52:38,018 --> 00:52:40,484
But that's the Yeah. Prerogative. But but that's

1454
00:52:40,484 --> 00:52:43,507
also because it's not open source. If it

1455
00:52:43,507 --> 00:52:44,302
has open source,

1456
00:52:45,114 --> 00:52:46,869
it would be your to... But that's why

1457
00:52:46,948 --> 00:52:48,862
I'm saying they're calling all of these efforts

1458
00:52:48,862 --> 00:52:52,212
open, that's. They're not open. They're basically saying

1459
00:52:52,212 --> 00:52:53,887
we're investing a bunch of money into these

1460
00:52:53,887 --> 00:52:54,206
things.

1461
00:52:55,098 --> 00:52:56,930
And we're making this super usable by you

1462
00:52:56,930 --> 00:52:57,726
guys for free.

1463
00:52:58,443 --> 00:53:00,673
It's like Facebook is open, Right? Facebook is

1464
00:53:00,673 --> 00:53:02,983
free to consumers. So they're gonna make money

1465
00:53:02,983 --> 00:53:05,234
somewhere else. That's the Facebook playbook.

1466
00:53:05,795 --> 00:53:07,795
Free at the point of consumption. But that's

1467
00:53:07,795 --> 00:53:10,355
fair. I think that the definition of most

1468
00:53:10,355 --> 00:53:11,494
open source businesses

1469
00:53:11,795 --> 00:53:14,042
today They have to find a business for

1470
00:53:14,042 --> 00:53:15,953
that. But this is not even open source

1471
00:53:16,033 --> 00:53:17,865
Belt. There's an open source here. Where's the

1472
00:53:17,865 --> 00:53:19,617
open source of this? For me to have

1473
00:53:19,617 --> 00:53:23,606
an That I'm free to run in 99.99

1474
00:53:23,606 --> 00:53:25,351
percent of the use cases as long as

1475
00:53:25,431 --> 00:53:27,414
I'm not Google. I mean, it's kind of

1476
00:53:27,414 --> 00:53:29,105
magic to be frank. It's a huge

1477
00:53:29,478 --> 00:53:31,984
competition. That's why we have probably

1478
00:53:32,680 --> 00:53:35,630
some competition like mist trial is going even

1479
00:53:35,630 --> 00:53:38,202
more open source. I'm all fired personally.

1480
00:53:38,674 --> 00:53:40,108
Again, if you're a developer if you're a

1481
00:53:40,108 --> 00:53:42,179
company, what are your choices? To pay open

1482
00:53:42,179 --> 00:53:44,511
an to spend a billion to build your

1483
00:53:44,569 --> 00:53:45,126
financial model,

1484
00:53:45,699 --> 00:53:47,056
I mean, you don't have a lot of

1485
00:53:47,056 --> 00:53:49,371
option, and this is super high quality. This

1486
00:53:49,371 --> 00:53:51,527
is not trash what they're are giving. I

1487
00:53:51,527 --> 00:53:53,682
don't see how this doesn't become an embrace

1488
00:53:53,682 --> 00:53:54,640
extend distinguish play.

1489
00:53:55,533 --> 00:53:58,803
Potentially, I cannot judge and I can imagine

1490
00:53:58,803 --> 00:54:00,956
that they have a strategy will becomes that.

1491
00:54:01,196 --> 00:54:02,972
I don't know from it stuff to

1492
00:54:03,349 --> 00:54:04,147
judge before.

1493
00:54:05,038 --> 00:54:07,440
Something bad happen. Right now, I'm just

1494
00:54:07,891 --> 00:54:10,347
know what? Let's use it. And if you

1495
00:54:10,347 --> 00:54:10,505
change,

1496
00:54:11,218 --> 00:54:11,931
let's not use it.

1497
00:54:12,985 --> 00:54:14,824
Of course, let's consider alternatives. You might say,

1498
00:54:14,905 --> 00:54:16,905
no. I'm going to miss joel because I

1499
00:54:16,905 --> 00:54:18,824
believe in the strategy, I believe in the

1500
00:54:18,824 --> 00:54:18,985
approach.

1501
00:54:19,639 --> 00:54:21,390
And I believe in years to come they

1502
00:54:21,390 --> 00:54:23,221
will keep doing that way, but it's a

1503
00:54:23,221 --> 00:54:25,848
much smaller startups, so it's also tough if

1504
00:54:25,848 --> 00:54:26,723
you know where it's going.

1505
00:54:27,773 --> 00:54:30,710
There's obviously the angle on geopolitical geopolitics you

1506
00:54:30,710 --> 00:54:32,797
mentioned, you know, some of the tweets from

1507
00:54:33,171 --> 00:54:34,941
Vin Ko re recently

1508
00:54:35,409 --> 00:54:37,504
on Ai staying closed source

1509
00:54:37,961 --> 00:54:39,078
because of China, etcetera.

1510
00:54:39,955 --> 00:54:43,543
This obviously, a famous investor, an extremely successful

1511
00:54:43,543 --> 00:54:44,022
investor,

1512
00:54:45,072 --> 00:54:48,092
Personally I feel is too much is on

1513
00:54:48,092 --> 00:54:49,999
investment. He has big investment in

1514
00:54:50,873 --> 00:54:52,700
And congrats san, and by the way I

1515
00:54:52,700 --> 00:54:55,017
have nothing against open air per s in

1516
00:54:55,017 --> 00:54:55,493
the product,

1517
00:54:56,286 --> 00:55:00,197
but is part of that regulatory push to

1518
00:55:00,887 --> 00:55:01,387
forbid

1519
00:55:01,934 --> 00:55:04,405
open source Ai, which for me is insane.

1520
00:55:04,565 --> 00:55:06,500
It's like, what? I mean

1521
00:55:07,276 --> 00:55:09,508
how we serious, the world is built on

1522
00:55:09,508 --> 00:55:09,986
linux.

1523
00:55:10,798 --> 00:55:12,394
Do you know the world is built on

1524
00:55:12,394 --> 00:55:14,468
android? I mean, open source is part of

1525
00:55:14,468 --> 00:55:14,946
our life?

1526
00:55:15,664 --> 00:55:17,818
To suddenly says that you have to close

1527
00:55:17,818 --> 00:55:19,732
the eye for for what reason sorry, can

1528
00:55:19,732 --> 00:55:22,644
you we repeat again because you you fears

1529
00:55:22,704 --> 00:55:25,744
the rise of Ci robots or something. I'm

1530
00:55:25,744 --> 00:55:27,744
pretty angry. I mean, it's 1 thing to

1531
00:55:27,744 --> 00:55:29,991
say, you know, you orbit forbid some exports

1532
00:55:29,991 --> 00:55:32,082
and you do some exports control and some

1533
00:55:32,297 --> 00:55:33,650
that's 1 thing. But to say no guys.

1534
00:55:34,286 --> 00:55:36,456
Because it's a, you cannot make it open

1535
00:55:36,512 --> 00:55:40,595
anymore. It's pretty for acceptable and to seem

1536
00:55:40,650 --> 00:55:42,577
with so much vested interest

1537
00:55:42,949 --> 00:55:43,900
to lobby for this,

1538
00:55:44,708 --> 00:55:45,984
It just doesn't she right to me.

1539
00:55:46,782 --> 00:55:47,840
I agree with a

1540
00:55:48,536 --> 00:55:50,528
with their overall view. Right? That obviously calling

1541
00:55:50,528 --> 00:55:52,761
it with pi interests at the table, etcetera.

1542
00:55:53,414 --> 00:55:54,393
When there's other

1543
00:55:54,849 --> 00:55:56,844
things you can do. Right? Export controls it.

1544
00:55:57,163 --> 00:55:58,040
I think that's true.

1545
00:55:58,758 --> 00:56:00,832
I would also say that's the advantage of

1546
00:56:00,832 --> 00:56:02,507
close. Right? The advantage of close is it's

1547
00:56:02,507 --> 00:56:02,985
it's closed.

1548
00:56:03,559 --> 00:56:05,960
Nobody knows what is underneath it. Right? Reverse

1549
00:56:05,960 --> 00:56:07,159
engineering, It's extremely difficult,

1550
00:56:07,800 --> 00:56:08,699
etcetera. So,

1551
00:56:09,079 --> 00:56:11,579
I mean, is there geopolitical fight right now

1552
00:56:12,053 --> 00:56:13,961
with China clearly. I mean, we've talked about

1553
00:56:13,961 --> 00:56:16,267
it in previous episodes. Does that mean that

1554
00:56:16,267 --> 00:56:17,244
there are areas

1555
00:56:17,619 --> 00:56:18,119
of

1556
00:56:18,494 --> 00:56:20,164
development in the Us and other parts of

1557
00:56:20,164 --> 00:56:21,118
the world also in Europe,

1558
00:56:21,929 --> 00:56:23,067
that need to be

1559
00:56:23,445 --> 00:56:25,062
more cautious in how

1560
00:56:25,759 --> 00:56:27,833
these instances are manifested to the rest of

1561
00:56:27,833 --> 00:56:29,030
the world, probably yes.

1562
00:56:29,603 --> 00:56:31,033
Is it a matter of clothes versus open?

1563
00:56:31,271 --> 00:56:33,178
In some cases, it might be actually? Obviously,

1564
00:56:33,337 --> 00:56:34,290
it's a little bit peri?

1565
00:56:34,925 --> 00:56:36,435
I feel it's a little bit like, a

1566
00:56:36,435 --> 00:56:37,920
bit of a spin on the situation

1567
00:56:38,436 --> 00:56:41,164
in terms of comm and communication, but honestly,

1568
00:56:42,096 --> 00:56:43,687
some of it might be warranted. I think

1569
00:56:43,687 --> 00:56:45,278
at some point people do need have that's

1570
00:56:45,278 --> 00:56:46,573
in notion and

1571
00:56:46,964 --> 00:56:49,039
take to to du account. You're right to

1572
00:56:49,039 --> 00:56:51,512
have your opinion personally I'm totally against it.

1573
00:56:51,831 --> 00:56:53,986
I think it makes no sense. Or we

1574
00:56:53,986 --> 00:56:55,674
accept what is next is it going to

1575
00:56:55,674 --> 00:56:58,220
make sure that Linux is becoming close source

1576
00:56:58,220 --> 00:57:00,527
and for forbidden done to to export anywhere

1577
00:57:00,527 --> 00:57:02,768
and. I mean, it's too late. No. But

1578
00:57:02,768 --> 00:57:04,118
because that cat is out of the bag.

1579
00:57:04,277 --> 00:57:05,943
The Ai cat is not out of the

1580
00:57:05,943 --> 00:57:06,896
bag yet. Right?

1581
00:57:08,087 --> 00:57:09,199
I think that's the difference.

1582
00:57:09,928 --> 00:57:10,984
Ai is similar.

1583
00:57:11,438 --> 00:57:13,821
I mean, Chinese Scientists are doing great work

1584
00:57:13,821 --> 00:57:15,887
on Ai. I mean, if you look at

1585
00:57:15,887 --> 00:57:16,125
labs,

1586
00:57:17,251 --> 00:57:19,314
across the Us. I mean, Ai labs. I

1587
00:57:19,314 --> 00:57:21,376
mean, how many from Chinese decent. I mean,

1588
00:57:21,852 --> 00:57:23,598
it's not fair for me at this stage.

1589
00:57:24,249 --> 00:57:26,486
To try to close it to block some

1590
00:57:26,486 --> 00:57:27,126
business model.

1591
00:57:27,924 --> 00:57:30,721
And more important, this is based on total

1592
00:57:30,721 --> 00:57:32,894
bush bullshit assumption I mean, this is based

1593
00:57:32,894 --> 00:57:34,735
on Ai it's going to take over the

1594
00:57:34,735 --> 00:57:36,114
world. Ai is student.

1595
00:57:36,974 --> 00:57:39,055
Ai can be used by others. I mean,

1596
00:57:39,549 --> 00:57:41,867
Others are going to invent and to invest,

1597
00:57:42,506 --> 00:57:45,063
and I don't see why for building open

1598
00:57:45,063 --> 00:57:46,981
source is going to help. What it's going

1599
00:57:46,981 --> 00:57:47,380
to help.

1600
00:57:48,034 --> 00:57:51,864
Is going to ent some corporate interest. That's

1601
00:57:51,864 --> 00:57:53,381
what we know for sure is going to

1602
00:57:53,381 --> 00:57:55,536
happen. And I don't see that as good

1603
00:57:55,536 --> 00:57:58,181
anyway. So while the world goes around, Belt.

1604
00:57:58,420 --> 00:58:00,491
That's how the world goes around. No. No.

1605
00:58:00,650 --> 00:58:02,425
No. No. The world add.

1606
00:58:03,534 --> 00:58:05,126
It is as it's gone around for the

1607
00:58:05,126 --> 00:58:06,002
last many decades.

1608
00:58:06,559 --> 00:58:08,471
No. That's not true. As the internet is

1609
00:58:08,471 --> 00:58:11,497
running online, not on Microsoft Windows. With initiative

1610
00:58:11,497 --> 00:58:13,922
like this. Will have run on Microsoft Windows

1611
00:58:13,979 --> 00:58:16,048
and it's running on Cisco routers and stuff

1612
00:58:16,048 --> 00:58:17,083
like that of people that have made a

1613
00:58:17,083 --> 00:58:18,674
ton of money out of it. You know

1614
00:58:18,674 --> 00:58:20,834
the alternatives. In term of foot around Francisco,

1615
00:58:20,913 --> 00:58:22,183
it's a shadow of what it used to

1616
00:58:22,183 --> 00:58:24,405
be here. Yeah. Well, the Chinese also came

1617
00:58:24,405 --> 00:58:26,310
that market that's a different discussion. So I

1618
00:58:26,310 --> 00:58:28,074
feel it's warranted. In and it's a decision

1619
00:58:28,074 --> 00:58:30,142
of the company and but the shareholders and

1620
00:58:30,142 --> 00:58:32,210
moves in there. Right? Now, I'm not here

1621
00:58:32,210 --> 00:58:33,642
to a pine where open Ai,

1622
00:58:34,452 --> 00:58:36,224
raised money under the wrong

1623
00:58:36,599 --> 00:58:38,983
construct. It is the construct of the shareholders.

1624
00:58:39,381 --> 00:58:40,971
And and it is the the finishing of

1625
00:58:40,971 --> 00:58:41,607
the shareholders.

1626
00:58:42,099 --> 00:58:44,088
And they're subject to regulations in the specific

1627
00:58:44,088 --> 00:58:45,681
markers that they operate in, and they can

1628
00:58:45,681 --> 00:58:48,466
get slapped, right, if they break those regulations,

1629
00:58:48,625 --> 00:58:50,394
but it is. And you know, the case

1630
00:58:50,394 --> 00:58:52,232
of open ai I think the the situation

1631
00:58:52,232 --> 00:58:52,732
is

1632
00:58:53,351 --> 00:58:54,949
is I don't know. I don't know what

1633
00:58:54,949 --> 00:58:57,026
was agreed and what is written down in

1634
00:58:57,026 --> 00:58:58,485
terms of agreements between,

1635
00:58:59,037 --> 00:59:00,945
Elon and Sam and all these guys initially?

1636
00:59:01,104 --> 00:59:02,455
What was the agreement they had? And is

1637
00:59:02,455 --> 00:59:04,362
this a illegally binding agreement or not? Right?

1638
00:59:04,601 --> 00:59:06,270
It's as simple as that. I mean, are

1639
00:59:06,270 --> 00:59:07,303
they now changing tech?

1640
00:59:08,114 --> 00:59:10,027
On Ola point Ai, the discussion is, can

1641
00:59:10,027 --> 00:59:12,179
they now be fully closed or not? Or

1642
00:59:12,179 --> 00:59:13,853
it... They were never really open Right? It

1643
00:59:13,853 --> 00:59:15,287
was more of a profit or a for

1644
00:59:15,287 --> 00:59:15,526
profit.

1645
00:59:16,257 --> 00:59:18,160
No. That was not my point. That was

1646
00:59:18,160 --> 00:59:20,800
not my point. My point was about regulating

1647
00:59:21,014 --> 00:59:23,154
and for forbid open source Ai.

1648
00:59:23,884 --> 00:59:25,401
So if you are talking about open air

1649
00:59:25,401 --> 00:59:26,997
ai different story, I have no problems to

1650
00:59:26,997 --> 00:59:29,073
do what they want. But if they are

1651
00:59:29,073 --> 00:59:32,266
pushing regulation to limit competition, that's a different

1652
00:59:32,266 --> 00:59:34,358
story. But but Beth, I agree with you.

1653
00:59:34,997 --> 00:59:37,635
Regulation that that makes it impossible for someone

1654
00:59:37,635 --> 00:59:39,313
to have open source ai in the Us,

1655
00:59:39,473 --> 00:59:41,550
I think is silly. Now for many companies

1656
00:59:41,550 --> 00:59:42,370
to close

1657
00:59:42,683 --> 00:59:43,318
their stacks.

1658
00:59:43,874 --> 00:59:44,985
It is what it is. Right?

1659
00:59:45,699 --> 00:59:47,445
So I think we are not. I don't

1660
00:59:47,445 --> 00:59:48,874
know what happened, you know. But me, I

1661
00:59:48,874 --> 00:59:52,067
have only been talking about open source Ai

1662
00:59:52,067 --> 00:59:56,454
being forbidden and by regulation and regulatory capture

1663
00:59:56,454 --> 00:59:58,049
that the only thing I talk about. Should

1664
00:59:58,049 --> 00:59:59,963
not be Open air as a company as

1665
00:59:59,963 --> 01:00:01,733
long as they don't cheat the shoulder they

1666
01:00:01,733 --> 01:00:03,568
do what they want, and the flow regression.

1667
01:00:03,967 --> 01:00:06,519
But for me, what is critical is to

1668
01:00:06,519 --> 01:00:09,151
let Ai develop itself as it wants in

1669
01:00:09,151 --> 01:00:11,246
a way so that we don't

1670
01:00:11,559 --> 01:00:12,935
add some level of

1671
01:00:13,391 --> 01:00:16,099
introduction by regulations. And I'm very worried to

1672
01:00:16,099 --> 01:00:18,590
be clear. It's not just that. It's also

1673
01:00:18,807 --> 01:00:20,161
regulations that are coming to Ai,

1674
01:00:20,734 --> 01:00:22,812
if you think about what happened recently in

1675
01:00:22,972 --> 01:00:26,748
California, Are proposing some new regulations, dan scary

1676
01:00:26,887 --> 01:00:30,176
about blocking innovation in Ai, so I think

1677
01:00:30,176 --> 01:00:32,324
we have to be very worried and careful

1678
01:00:32,324 --> 01:00:34,074
and I our eyes open that a lot

1679
01:00:34,074 --> 01:00:34,893
of regulatory

1680
01:00:35,268 --> 01:00:38,052
capture is being prepared by some and we

1681
01:00:38,052 --> 01:00:40,144
have to... To push back I believe. We

1682
01:00:40,224 --> 01:00:41,505
I agree on that. Right?

1683
01:00:42,144 --> 01:00:44,464
But the option for, you know, specific companies

1684
01:00:44,464 --> 01:00:46,304
and ecosystems to just say this is closed

1685
01:00:46,304 --> 01:00:47,905
now. I think it is what it is.

1686
01:00:48,319 --> 01:00:50,233
Companies. I I have no problem, so

1687
01:00:51,031 --> 01:00:52,945
Sure what said agreement.

1688
01:00:53,663 --> 01:00:55,019
There there was gonna be a point in

1689
01:00:55,019 --> 01:00:57,172
time where I feel we're gonna have a

1690
01:00:57,172 --> 01:00:58,105
discussion on more

1691
01:00:58,783 --> 01:01:01,018
complex industrial policy. Right? Whether it is right

1692
01:01:01,018 --> 01:01:03,094
for a country to national a technology, for

1693
01:01:03,094 --> 01:01:03,333
example.

1694
01:01:03,972 --> 01:01:05,249
And say this tech is now owned by

1695
01:01:05,249 --> 01:01:07,186
the country, or this tech is now

1696
01:01:07,577 --> 01:01:08,077
forbidden

1697
01:01:08,529 --> 01:01:10,514
to be taken by anyone else outside of

1698
01:01:10,514 --> 01:01:13,054
the. For example, we could have an argument

1699
01:01:13,054 --> 01:01:15,452
also around imports and export laws, Is there

1700
01:01:15,452 --> 01:01:17,121
a mandate that I could take on that?

1701
01:01:17,996 --> 01:01:19,745
And what I'm hearing from you is you're

1702
01:01:19,745 --> 01:01:22,210
okay with that? That within certain boundaries they

1703
01:01:22,210 --> 01:01:22,687
can do that?

1704
01:01:24,135 --> 01:01:26,762
Yes. But but again, it depends on what.

1705
01:01:27,001 --> 01:01:29,549
I understand that there are some products you

1706
01:01:29,549 --> 01:01:31,873
can, but to say I'm going to... To

1707
01:01:31,873 --> 01:01:34,422
4 open source and 4 forbid company to

1708
01:01:34,422 --> 01:01:36,972
have an open source approach is very shocking

1709
01:01:36,972 --> 01:01:37,370
after that.

1710
01:01:38,405 --> 01:01:40,078
Export investigation. We say you know what? This

1711
01:01:40,078 --> 01:01:42,723
price open source but I'm trying to forbid

1712
01:01:42,723 --> 01:01:44,077
some countries to access it.

1713
01:01:45,033 --> 01:01:47,286
Okay. Sure. But again, the the most

1714
01:01:48,061 --> 01:01:49,893
successful open upon source project is not American

1715
01:01:49,893 --> 01:01:51,896
and it's called Linux, and so so what

1716
01:01:51,896 --> 01:01:54,197
do you do about that? So let's let's

1717
01:01:54,673 --> 01:01:56,498
I'll solve the problem. So let's charge 1

1718
01:01:56,498 --> 01:01:56,736
dollar.

1719
01:01:59,449 --> 01:01:59,928
Open source.

1720
01:02:01,762 --> 01:02:02,001
Okay.

1721
01:02:02,959 --> 01:02:04,873
I'm sure there are lawyers working on a

1722
01:02:04,873 --> 01:02:07,026
solution already. If in case this ever happens,

1723
01:02:07,346 --> 01:02:09,594
which I think will not, but, yeah. Yeah.

1724
01:02:09,835 --> 01:02:12,155
I I just think it's important to not

1725
01:02:12,155 --> 01:02:12,655
read

1726
01:02:13,034 --> 01:02:15,614
retroactively change law, not retroactively

1727
01:02:15,994 --> 01:02:19,288
change some business approach. But I understand some

1728
01:02:19,288 --> 01:02:22,324
level of regulation and to consider that you

1729
01:02:22,324 --> 01:02:23,943
regulate some news of some

1730
01:02:24,562 --> 01:02:26,400
technologies, but I think you have to find

1731
01:02:26,400 --> 01:02:28,164
it. To do it in a way that's

1732
01:02:28,164 --> 01:02:31,421
reasonable and achievable, and I think that's happening

1733
01:02:31,421 --> 01:02:33,804
in some other sectors of the Ai industry

1734
01:02:33,804 --> 01:02:35,884
not not a softer side. And at that

1735
01:02:35,884 --> 01:02:38,347
time I'm fine. And on this file agreement,

1736
01:02:38,744 --> 01:02:41,604
maybe we conclude today's episode, episode 55,

1737
01:02:42,573 --> 01:02:44,645
what is open versus not open in tech.

1738
01:02:44,963 --> 01:02:47,991
We went through history lane on open source

1739
01:02:47,991 --> 01:02:50,478
software? We defined it. We talked about some

1740
01:02:50,478 --> 01:02:52,157
of the core innovations that happened in the

1741
01:02:52,157 --> 01:02:52,657
space

1742
01:02:53,116 --> 01:02:55,513
that will well beyond just software development.

1743
01:02:56,792 --> 01:02:58,470
Organizational business model wise.

1744
01:02:59,204 --> 01:03:00,871
We talked about lies when open is not

1745
01:03:00,871 --> 01:03:02,936
open, but it may be a mode or

1746
01:03:02,936 --> 01:03:03,651
bridge fore closed.

1747
01:03:04,286 --> 01:03:06,590
I think a little bit more optimistic on

1748
01:03:06,590 --> 01:03:08,257
belt side, maybe a little bit less.

1749
01:03:08,909 --> 01:03:10,584
On my side in some areas,

1750
01:03:11,541 --> 01:03:13,955
and then we got to some of the

1751
01:03:14,412 --> 01:03:16,827
of Ai and what's happening right now where

1752
01:03:16,885 --> 01:03:18,400
we ended up on this violent agreement.

1753
01:03:18,974 --> 01:03:20,892
Thank you, Bet. Thank you, Nino.

1754
01:03:23,689 --> 01:03:25,686
You can check the latest on our website

1755
01:03:25,686 --> 01:03:27,045
the s show dot com.

1756
01:03:27,856 --> 01:03:29,526
You can connect with us on Twitter at

1757
01:03:29,606 --> 01:03:31,594
B Schmidt and at En pedro.

1758
01:03:33,106 --> 01:03:33,822
As a disclaimer,

1759
01:03:34,474 --> 01:03:37,351
These are our own opinions. We're not representing

1760
01:03:37,351 --> 01:03:40,068
the views of any company. If he enjoyed

1761
01:03:40,068 --> 01:03:40,387
so show.

1762
01:03:41,186 --> 01:03:43,754
Subscribe. Give us 5 stars. Or leave a

1763
01:03:43,754 --> 01:03:46,933
review on Apple podcast app or your favorite

1764
01:03:46,933 --> 01:03:47,092
app,

1765
01:03:47,807 --> 01:03:50,271
which will help other people to discover take

1766
01:03:50,271 --> 01:03:51,941
decipher. Thank you for listening,

1767
01:03:52,513 --> 01:03:53,229
See you next time.