WEBVTT 00:00.433 --> 00:04.176 Hello. Welcome back to Conversations with 00:04.276 --> 00:08.720 Stephen Kamugasa. This is the first of three 00:08.800 --> 00:13.784 podcasts on climate change. Today's guest 00:14.044 --> 00:18.327 is Sir Jonathon Porritt, CBE, a distinguished 00:18.387 --> 00:21.309 British environmentalist, broadcaster and 00:21.349 --> 05:28.333 writer. He was born on the 5th of July 1950 00:26.033 --> 00:30.502 in London, to a distinguished father, the 00:30.542 --> 00:34.785 first baronet, Lord Porrit, who was the 11th 00:34.985 --> 00:37.547 and officially the first homegrown governor 00:37.587 --> 00:42.471 general of New Zealand, and his mother, English 00:42.511 --> 00:47.815 mother, Catherine Mary Peck. Lord Porrit 00:47.915 --> 00:50.937 served in the Second World War as a brigadier 00:51.938 --> 00:55.340 in the Royal Army Medical Corps, and was 00:55.541 --> 01:00.215 also a bronze medalist in the 1924 Olympics, 01:01.116 --> 01:04.236 famously and most vividly portrayed in a 01:04.336 --> 01:09.217 film, Chariots of Fire in the 100 metres 01:09.277 --> 01:15.138 race. Jonathon was educated at Eton College 01:15.919 --> 01:18.859 from whence he went to Oxford to read modern 01:18.899 --> 01:22.620 languages. Graduating with a first class 01:22.660 --> 01:25.981 degree, Jonathon qualified as a teacher in 00:00.433 --> 01:31.037 1974 teaching at St Clement Dane's Grammar 01:31.057 --> 01:35.980 School in Shepherd's Bush, West London. He 01:36.040 --> 01:39.223 remained at the school for 10 years, including 01:39.303 --> 05:28.333 serving as Head of English from 1980 to 1984. 01:47.348 --> 01:50.550 As much as Jonathon loved teaching, it was 01:51.491 --> 01:55.054 his childhood appreciation of wildlife that 01:55.114 --> 01:58.516 seduced him into trying his hand and politics. 02:00.217 --> 02:03.398 He joined and became a prominent member of 02:03.438 --> 02:06.840 the Ecology Party, now the Green Party of 02:07.020 --> 02:10.661 England and Wales, becoming its co-chair 02:11.161 --> 02:16.043 in 1980. He subsequently became a full-time 02:16.103 --> 02:19.945 chair of the party, carrying out many changes 02:20.125 --> 02:23.446 in the process, thus making the party more 02:23.526 --> 02:27.824 prominent in national elections. Jonathon 02:27.844 --> 02:30.865 stood for Parliament in the general elections 02:30.945 --> 02:37.086 of 1979 and 1983. He did not win, but received 02:37.886 --> 02:43.527 attention from national media. He was instrumental 02:43.687 --> 02:45.727 in growing the party membership from just 02:45.847 --> 02:48.568 a few hundred members to around 3,000. However, 02:48.628 --> 02:57.740 in 1984, Jonathon gave up both teaching and 02:57.800 --> 03:01.203 the chair of the Ecology Party to become 03:01.223 --> 03:04.465 a director of Friends of the Earth in Britain, 03:05.166 --> 03:09.910 a position he held until 1990, a decision 03:10.050 --> 03:12.772 which in his own words, and I quote, was 03:12.912 --> 03:17.195 probably the best decision of my life. For 03:17.295 --> 03:20.298 he transformed the Friends of the Earth into 03:20.338 --> 03:24.541 the face of radical respectability by encouraging 03:25.353 --> 03:28.375 the organization to promote practical solutions 03:28.555 --> 03:34.318 locally, as well as thinking globally. His 03:34.418 --> 03:37.660 tenure at the Friends of the Earth saw the 03:37.700 --> 03:39.481 charity's membership grow from 12,700 to 00:00.433 --> 03:40.982 226,300. Friends of the Earth is now a hefty 03:41.102 --> 03:43.444 international powerhouse of ideas and solutions. 03:55.033 --> 03:58.055 Jonathon's accomplishments in the course 03:58.095 --> 04:00.616 of climate change and the environment are 04:00.636 --> 04:03.498 too many to mention here, but one may be 04:03.578 --> 04:10.241 cited. In 1996, Jonathon, along with Sarah 04:10.301 --> 04:14.884 Parkin, OBE, and Professor Paul Ekins, OBE, 04:15.804 --> 04:20.267 co-founded Forum for the Future. Forum for 04:20.307 --> 04:22.908 the Future is a sustainable development charity 04:23.825 --> 04:27.247 working in partnership with businesses, governments 04:27.768 --> 04:30.690 and civil society to accelerate the shift 04:30.770 --> 04:35.934 towards a sustainable future. The charity 04:35.954 --> 04:38.595 specialises in addressing critical global 04:38.655 --> 04:43.659 challenges by catalysing in key systems from 04:43.839 --> 04:51.184 food to apparel, energy to shipping. Jonathon 04:51.725 --> 04:55.247 is the author of many books, on environmental 04:55.327 --> 04:58.209 issues, including presenting television series 04:58.429 --> 05:02.251 on them. He has chaired the United Nations 05:02.471 --> 05:05.573 Environmental and Development Committee for 05:05.614 --> 05:10.357 the UK. His greatest work by far, however, 05:11.457 --> 05:17.261 is his book, Hop in Hell. In this episode, 05:18.182 --> 05:21.924 we discuss the topic, climate change, the 05:21.964 --> 05:26.753 new apocalypse, Sir Jonathon Porritt, welcome. 05:28.333 --> 05:30.514 Thank you Stephen, very good to be joining 05:30.574 --> 05:31.554 you for this conversation. 05:33.875 --> 05:36.795 In a foreword to your book, Hop in Hell, 05:37.936 --> 05:41.817 Sir Rob Fenwick writes, and I quote, upon 05:41.917 --> 05:45.178 reaching an age where many of us are contemplating 05:45.298 --> 05:49.219 a gentle retirement, Jonathon is planning 05:49.339 --> 05:53.260 a return to more radical campaigning in solidarity 05:53.887 --> 05:56.347 with young people all around the world." 05:56.628 --> 06:01.108 End of quotations. So Jonathon, please tell 06:01.288 --> 06:04.309 us something about your childhood that has 06:04.369 --> 06:07.550 had such a profound influence upon your person, 06:08.410 --> 06:12.211 so much so that you should now, as you are 06:12.291 --> 06:16.151 coming into your seer and yellow leaf, aspire 06:16.251 --> 06:19.612 to a more radical form of campaigning. 06:23.139 --> 06:27.483 I had a very happy, fortunate childhood, 06:28.363 --> 06:31.066 Stephen, and two wonderful role models in 06:31.106 --> 06:34.228 my parents. My father was a very dedicated 06:34.368 --> 06:37.050 surgeon throughout his life, driven by deep 06:37.130 --> 06:42.014 humanitarian concern, and my mother was also 06:42.054 --> 06:46.558 a nurse, and brought with her a kind of absolute 06:46.998 --> 06:49.100 sense of determination to get on and make 06:49.140 --> 06:51.202 things work, come what may. So I was fortunate 06:51.242 --> 06:53.842 in that regard, and we lived in North London, 06:54.302 --> 06:56.623 so I spent an awful lot of my childhood wandering 06:56.683 --> 06:58.544 around on Hampstead Heath learning a little 06:58.564 --> 07:01.265 bit about how nature works on that patch 07:01.325 --> 07:04.226 of urban greenery, but it wasn't really that. 07:04.246 --> 07:06.868 I mean, neither of my parents were particularly 07:06.908 --> 07:08.568 interested in the environment. They didn't 07:08.588 --> 07:12.230 have any thoughts that I would end up spending 07:12.990 --> 07:15.851 most of my working life in the environment 07:15.951 --> 07:18.392 movement, but they were very keen to encourage 07:18.432 --> 07:21.934 me to take on what I felt to be important 07:21.974 --> 07:24.616 in my life. So, As you may know, Steven, 07:24.636 --> 07:27.277 very quickly after university, I decided 07:27.317 --> 07:28.958 that I definitely wasn't going to be a lawyer. 07:29.058 --> 07:30.658 To begin with, I thought that I might be. 07:32.579 --> 07:34.880 Others have gone down that path very successfully, 07:34.900 --> 07:37.520 but not me. So I just decided that I would 07:37.560 --> 07:39.041 do what I really wanted to do, which was 07:39.061 --> 07:41.642 to get into teaching. And I spent 10 years 07:41.942 --> 07:44.643 then teaching in London schools, working 07:44.683 --> 07:46.783 with young people, beginning to understand 07:46.863 --> 07:49.444 the critical importance of education for 07:49.524 --> 07:51.365 all young people in terms of shaping their 07:51.425 --> 07:54.086 future, working in parts of London that were 07:54.126 --> 07:58.190 pretty deprived with kids that were facing 07:58.290 --> 08:01.953 enormous difficulty. And that was the time 08:01.973 --> 08:03.675 when I also got involved in the Green Party, 08:03.715 --> 08:05.977 as you mentioned in your introduction. So 08:06.017 --> 08:07.699 those two things came together. So I've had 08:07.739 --> 08:09.941 a love of young people and education right 08:09.981 --> 08:13.484 from the earliest times from 1973 onwards. 08:14.124 --> 08:17.768 And right now, when I think about the prospects 08:19.162 --> 08:21.324 that young people face in the world today 08:21.424 --> 08:26.389 after 30, 40 years of staggering indifference 08:27.350 --> 08:31.914 on the part of today's generation, I feel 08:31.954 --> 08:33.495 that we need to do everything we possibly 08:33.515 --> 08:36.198 can to work with and help young people. And 08:36.238 --> 08:37.759 for some of those young people, that means 08:37.839 --> 08:41.363 taking direct action. It means becoming full-on 08:41.783 --> 08:45.131 climate justice activists. fighting their 08:45.211 --> 08:47.992 corner in terms of their protests, their 08:48.012 --> 08:51.813 attempts to close down the big oil facilities 08:51.993 --> 08:55.454 in the UK, and I feel they need support. 08:55.574 --> 08:59.195 It may irritate a lot of people that that's 08:59.275 --> 09:00.976 going to be part of the climate movement, 09:01.056 --> 09:03.276 direct action of that kind, but I'm sorry 09:03.316 --> 09:06.577 to say it works on them. It's not young people 09:06.657 --> 09:08.358 who are doing this because they think it's 09:08.378 --> 09:11.100 the best way of spending their lives. They're 09:11.160 --> 09:14.080 doing it because they want some kind of viable 09:14.140 --> 09:17.081 future for them and generations that come 09:17.181 --> 09:17.661 after Them. 09:21.142 --> 09:24.163 In your introduction of Hope in Hell, you 09:24.203 --> 09:27.804 write, and I quote, the climate emergency 09:27.864 --> 09:31.905 poses an infinitely graver risk to humankind 09:32.285 --> 09:36.666 than COVID-19, but has warranted very little 09:36.706 --> 09:40.373 political engagement over the years. That's 09:40.433 --> 09:43.456 the tragedy of the horizon. Today always 09:43.496 --> 09:48.120 trumps tomorrow, end of quotations. Some 09:48.160 --> 09:51.783 might say, Sir Jonathon, of course today 09:52.183 --> 09:57.288 will always trump tomorrow. But with a Russo-Ukrainian 09:57.368 --> 10:02.092 war raging in Europe, a global energy crisis, 10:03.033 --> 10:07.236 a cost of living crisis, plus a worldwide 10:07.296 --> 10:12.309 recession, Why should anyone care about the 10:12.349 --> 10:17.350 climate emergency? And suppose I were a reasonable 10:17.390 --> 10:21.430 man riding on the Clapham Omnibus, how would 10:21.470 --> 10:24.211 you define the climate emergency to me? 10:27.552 --> 10:31.432 The climate emergency is exactly what it 10:31.652 --> 10:35.813 says on the tin. It's a whole set of climate 10:35.873 --> 10:38.874 related impacts, things going wrong with 10:39.094 --> 10:42.484 the climate. extremes of one kind or another, 10:42.684 --> 10:45.886 whether we're talking about storms, floods, 10:46.426 --> 10:50.309 droughts, wildfires, increases in sea level, 10:50.969 --> 10:54.692 climate refugees, the whole host of emergency-related 10:54.772 --> 10:57.394 phenomena that have been caused by the increase 10:57.434 --> 11:02.577 in temperature since we began to put billions 11:02.637 --> 11:04.599 and billions of tons of greenhouse gases 11:04.719 --> 11:06.380 into the atmosphere from the start of the 11:06.400 --> 11:09.325 Industrial Revolution onwards. So we've been 11:09.365 --> 11:11.666 doing this for a long time. We haven't been 11:11.746 --> 11:15.387 mindful of the consequences of fueling our 11:15.467 --> 11:18.588 economy in this way via fossil fuels and 11:18.608 --> 11:20.729 the consequences of that and are playing 11:20.829 --> 11:23.970 out. So the emergency bit of it is pretty 11:24.030 --> 11:26.111 clear. There are no countries in the world 11:26.151 --> 11:28.451 that haven't already felt the sting of some 11:28.511 --> 11:32.133 kind of climate induced disaster. Globally, 11:32.153 --> 11:35.494 the financial costs of this are increasing 11:35.974 --> 11:40.592 every year. Last year, there was a sum to 11:40.632 --> 11:45.435 be paid by the insurance companies of around 10:27.552 --> 11:51.879 $120 billion as a direct consequence of climate-induced 11:51.899 --> 11:55.221 disasters. And we have to bear in mind that 11:55.361 --> 11:58.023 that's the insured disasters. Most people 11:58.103 --> 12:01.305 don't have proper levels of insurance, and 12:01.365 --> 12:02.806 some people don't have insurance at all. 12:02.846 --> 12:05.008 So the economic damage of that was probably 12:05.048 --> 12:10.575 closer to $500 billion last year. So I think 12:11.215 --> 12:16.238 it's right to say that the present will always 12:16.318 --> 12:18.599 trump the future. The future will always, 12:18.779 --> 12:23.461 for politicians, play second fiddle to what 12:23.501 --> 12:25.642 they have to do in the short term. But you 12:25.662 --> 12:27.583 can no longer say that climate change is 12:27.763 --> 12:29.564 just about the future. Climate change is 12:29.724 --> 12:33.546 in our midst right now, damaging the lives 12:33.606 --> 12:35.947 of hundreds of millions of people, killing 12:36.623 --> 12:40.826 millions of people every year, causing huge 12:40.926 --> 12:43.808 impacts to climate and the ecosystems on 12:43.848 --> 12:46.991 which we depend. And that is now right now, 12:47.471 --> 12:49.292 every year, and it'll go on getting worse 12:49.312 --> 12:52.675 and worse. So the tragedy, the horizon was 12:52.815 --> 13:11.697 one that we we could have dealt with 1020 12:57.138 --> 13:00.240 years ago, even longer for that matter. But 13:00.300 --> 13:03.142 now it's in our faces. So politicians don't 13:03.202 --> 13:05.893 have to pretend that this is are nice to 13:05.953 --> 13:08.494 do things for future generations. This is 13:08.534 --> 13:11.676 a thing they have to do for people today. 13:11.697 --> 13:18.641 At page 17 of your book and following you 13:18.681 --> 13:22.604 write, and I quote, it has long been a bad 13:22.644 --> 13:25.806 bear of mine that so many environmentalists 13:25.846 --> 13:28.708 remain blind to the grotesque inequality 13:29.428 --> 13:33.431 that scars our world and that so many campaigners 13:33.930 --> 13:37.111 for social justice remain blind to the collapse 13:37.271 --> 13:41.391 of our mutual world. Social justice and climate 13:41.451 --> 13:44.992 justice are two sides of the same coin, always 13:45.052 --> 13:48.753 have been and always will be, end of quotations. 13:50.833 --> 13:54.554 So Jonathon, what exactly do you mean by 13:55.214 --> 13:57.814 social justice and climate justice are two 13:57.894 --> 14:01.015 sides of the same coin? And what can we do 14:01.035 --> 14:02.815 to change this reality? 14:05.613 --> 14:08.596 It's a really important part of the failure 14:08.636 --> 14:13.680 of the last 30 years, Stephen. So as a Green 14:13.720 --> 14:15.662 Party activist and director of Friends of 14:15.682 --> 14:18.724 the Earth, it was pretty clear to us that 14:18.764 --> 14:21.587 what we needed to do to address grotesque 14:21.747 --> 14:27.331 inequality in our society and across the 14:27.391 --> 14:32.369 world was pretty much the same set of issues 14:32.409 --> 14:35.709 that we needed to address for climate emergency 14:35.969 --> 14:39.370 and biodiversity collapse reasons. But in 14:39.410 --> 14:41.871 those days, environmentalists didn't really 14:41.911 --> 14:44.351 care very much about social justice. They 14:44.391 --> 14:46.312 were concerned about protecting ecosystems 14:46.372 --> 14:49.792 and threatened species. And social justice 14:49.832 --> 14:52.273 campaigners, development workers, they thought 14:52.293 --> 14:53.853 that worrying about the environment was a 14:53.893 --> 14:55.994 nice middle class fad that people like me 14:56.074 --> 15:00.567 could get stuck into. and those two stereotypes 15:00.607 --> 15:03.309 were massively damaging and that's many of 15:03.349 --> 15:05.450 your listeners may be astonished to know 15:05.470 --> 15:08.152 that that's the way it looked when I was 15:08.352 --> 15:10.513 at Friends of the Earth. These were two communities 15:10.533 --> 15:12.774 and they hardly worked together at all. That's 15:12.814 --> 15:15.976 not the case now. Now we've got a clear understanding 15:16.497 --> 15:19.398 that every time there's a worsening of climate-related 15:20.119 --> 15:22.420 phenomena, a worsening of the impacts on 15:22.480 --> 15:24.622 people's lives, that is having a massive 15:24.682 --> 15:29.227 damage a massively damaging effect on social 15:29.287 --> 15:31.748 justice, because obviously it's the most 15:31.828 --> 15:33.789 vulnerable in the world today, the poorest, 15:34.209 --> 15:36.790 the least able to protect themselves, who 15:36.810 --> 15:41.171 are on the receiving end of the most damaging 15:41.311 --> 15:44.152 impacts of these changes in the climate or 15:44.172 --> 15:47.777 the collapse in different ecosystems. It's 15:47.817 --> 15:50.698 that vulnerability now that speaks very powerfully 15:50.918 --> 15:53.660 to people. We can see how the poorest nations 15:53.720 --> 15:56.121 in the world are suffering the worst. Everybody 15:56.201 --> 15:59.802 is astonished by what happened recently in 15:59.922 --> 16:05.184 Pakistan with some absolutely terrible stories 16:06.125 --> 16:08.526 of the damage done to millions of people 16:09.086 --> 16:11.827 when something like 30% of the total landmass 16:11.867 --> 16:16.054 of Pakistan was flooded. And that came hot 16:16.114 --> 16:19.355 on the heels, of course, of huge increases 16:19.395 --> 16:22.617 in average temperatures and some really unbelievable 16:22.697 --> 16:25.099 temperature extremes in that country. So 16:25.139 --> 16:27.180 Pakistan is right there in the front line, 16:27.200 --> 16:30.001 but it's not just countries like Pakistan. 16:30.021 --> 16:33.323 I mean, closer to home for many people in 16:34.284 --> 16:37.966 East Africa, Kenya was quick to point out 16:38.126 --> 16:40.427 to all the delegates at the conference of 16:40.507 --> 16:42.966 the climate conference at the end of last 16:42.986 --> 16:44.907 year in Sharm el-Sheikh, that they're already 16:44.947 --> 16:47.627 suffering huge economic damage as a consequence 16:47.667 --> 16:49.808 of climate change. The figure that they quote 16:49.888 --> 16:53.409 is that two years ago, so 2021, something 16:53.449 --> 16:55.630 like six percent of their GDP had to be set 16:55.670 --> 16:59.511 aside to deal with climate-induced damage. 17:00.231 --> 17:04.132 The lives of people tragically disrupted 17:04.512 --> 17:07.213 and their livelihoods put at risk as a consequence 17:07.253 --> 17:09.353 of climate change. Well, just imagine, Stephen, 17:10.234 --> 17:14.818 in a rich country like ours, if 6% of GDP 17:15.259 --> 17:17.680 was having to be devoted to dealing with 17:18.080 --> 17:19.781 damage caused by climate change, well, then 17:19.821 --> 17:23.163 our politicians would be talking a very different 17:23.263 --> 17:26.584 story indeed. So social justice, making sure 17:26.604 --> 17:30.146 that we share this massive, unbelievable 17:30.246 --> 17:32.327 wealth of the world more fairly than we do 17:32.367 --> 17:34.648 today. And climate justice, which means that 17:34.688 --> 17:36.409 we have to think about the interests of future 17:36.429 --> 17:38.970 generations as well as people today. They're 17:38.990 --> 17:40.171 two sides of the same coin. 17:43.218 --> 17:45.879 Speaking of social justice and climate justice 17:46.159 --> 17:48.920 being two sides of the same coin, you write 17:48.960 --> 17:52.361 in your book rather persuasively at page 17:43.218 --> 17:56.563 51 the following, and I quote, a hard-hitting 17:56.643 --> 17:59.784 report from the Business and Human Rights 17:59.924 --> 18:04.546 Resource Center in September 2019 revealed 18:04.586 --> 18:07.467 the full extent of human rights violations 18:08.027 --> 18:11.183 and destructive environmental practices from 18:11.263 --> 18:14.525 mining operations in the Democratic Republic 18:14.686 --> 18:21.290 of Congo, Zambia, Chile, China, India, and 18:21.390 --> 18:25.913 Brazil." End of quotations. Now, in October 18:26.073 --> 18:30.456 of 2022, I published an open letter to the 18:30.516 --> 18:33.938 president of Uganda, calling on him to cancel 18:34.359 --> 18:37.181 the controversial Uganda oil and gas project, 18:37.881 --> 18:40.403 following an intervention from the European 18:40.463 --> 18:43.574 Parliament. on the ground of the environment 18:43.794 --> 18:47.937 and human rights abuses. So Jonathon, how 18:48.057 --> 18:51.599 can we get the balance between social justice 18:51.679 --> 18:54.981 and climate justice right? And how can we 18:55.142 --> 18:59.585 ensure that global supply chains are completely 18:59.645 --> 19:02.907 transparent and free from human rights abuses, 19:03.667 --> 19:07.050 that all mining operations are based on best 19:07.190 --> 19:08.491 environmental practices? 19:10.825 --> 19:13.147 We all have some responsibility in that area, 19:13.187 --> 19:16.369 Stephen. The beneficiaries of development 19:16.409 --> 19:18.670 projects of one kind or another need to be 19:18.730 --> 19:22.753 mindful of the often negative impact of those 19:22.793 --> 19:26.235 developments on people in developing and 19:26.255 --> 19:30.959 emerging countries. You mentioned that particular 19:31.019 --> 19:36.082 fossil fuel project in Uganda in particular. 19:38.178 --> 19:41.420 but linking right through across to the coast 19:41.480 --> 19:45.122 of Kenya, that East Africa pipeline is a 19:45.323 --> 19:50.386 massive new investment in fossil fuels. But 19:50.426 --> 19:52.327 it's not just citizens who need to address 19:52.367 --> 19:54.448 this. It's the people who provide the money 19:54.548 --> 19:56.770 for this. It's the banks. It's the insurance 19:56.830 --> 19:59.371 companies. And as you know, Stephen, as someone 19:59.411 --> 20:02.787 involved in that campaign, There's been a 20:02.908 --> 20:05.970 real drive to stop the finance for that coming 20:06.090 --> 20:08.432 through so that the damage can be avoided. 20:08.912 --> 20:12.875 Now that's an old world type investment, 20:13.956 --> 20:17.419 a lethal, unnecessary investment in fossil 20:17.459 --> 20:20.061 fuels. But if you think of the citizens of 20:20.101 --> 20:23.223 those countries in Uganda and Kenya and surrounding 20:23.263 --> 20:24.584 countries, they're going to say, well, look, 20:25.885 --> 20:28.499 we need energy. We need the wealth that comes 20:28.539 --> 20:31.420 from the use of our assets. And if we've 20:31.460 --> 20:33.361 got hydrocarbon assets, why can't we use 20:33.421 --> 20:35.182 them in the same way that other countries 20:35.222 --> 20:38.144 have done elsewhere in the world? So as we 20:38.204 --> 20:41.385 campaign to stop some of these fossil fuel 20:41.685 --> 20:44.567 investments, we've got to campaign to accelerate 20:45.307 --> 20:47.969 investments in alternative energy sources, 20:48.049 --> 20:51.010 particularly renewable energy. Now, in the 20:51.050 --> 20:55.252 last few years, study after study from consultancies, 20:55.372 --> 20:59.540 academics, bodies have all demonstrated that 20:59.580 --> 21:03.684 the employment benefits of investments in 21:03.804 --> 21:08.307 renewables are much, much greater than the 21:08.368 --> 21:12.231 employment benefits in fossil fuels. So we're 21:12.251 --> 21:15.133 already in a really good situation where 21:15.193 --> 21:17.655 if governments and the private sector invest 21:17.675 --> 21:22.179 in renewable energy, in efficiency, in storage, 21:22.259 --> 21:24.041 which is a very important technology for 21:24.061 --> 21:27.528 the future, Not only will it be so much better 21:27.788 --> 21:29.769 for the environment and for the climate, 21:30.389 --> 21:32.131 but it will also be better for communities 21:32.331 --> 21:34.952 and for poor communities. So you probably 21:35.012 --> 21:37.234 know, Stephen, that by far the most important 21:37.274 --> 21:39.315 technology for poor people all around the 21:39.355 --> 21:43.098 world is solar energy. Solar energy is bringing 21:43.178 --> 21:46.820 more benefits to people today already in 21:46.980 --> 21:48.941 different countries around the world than 21:49.141 --> 21:53.224 any other single source of electricity generation. 21:53.584 --> 21:56.943 And that's because Solar power can be connected 21:57.123 --> 21:59.645 to the grids, which is obviously important, 21:59.685 --> 22:01.707 but solar power also brings economic and 22:01.747 --> 22:03.688 social benefits to people who are not connected 22:03.728 --> 22:07.471 to grids. And throughout large parts of Africa 22:07.991 --> 22:10.733 and, of course, in India and Pakistan and 22:10.913 --> 22:13.595 elsewhere, millions of people aren't connected 22:13.635 --> 22:16.117 to the grid. And even if they are connected 22:16.157 --> 22:18.559 to the grid, very often the electricity doesn't 22:18.599 --> 22:22.522 get down the grid because of shortages, outages, 22:22.602 --> 22:26.968 and all the rest of it. So, Renewable solar 22:27.209 --> 22:30.629 power is already the single most important 22:31.330 --> 22:33.670 beneficiary or the single most important 22:33.710 --> 22:36.931 deliverer of economic benefits for poor people 22:37.091 --> 22:39.652 across the world today. I just don't think 22:39.692 --> 22:41.912 people think about this stuff. Forget fossil 22:41.952 --> 22:44.493 fuels. If you're worried about poverty in 22:44.573 --> 22:46.333 emerging and developing countries, forget 22:46.373 --> 22:48.414 fossil fuels. The benefits for that go to 22:48.454 --> 22:51.255 largely rich countries or dictators and their 22:51.355 --> 22:53.780 elites in those poor countries. you want 22:53.800 --> 22:56.002 to help poor people in poor countries, forget 22:56.042 --> 22:58.424 the fossil fuel story, forget oil, forget 22:58.484 --> 23:02.207 gas, forget all that, and get involved in 23:02.407 --> 23:05.629 the efforts to create renewable electricity 23:05.710 --> 23:07.131 options for all of those countries. 23:10.353 --> 24:36.417 In chapter 17 of Hop in Hell, at page 238, 23:12.235 --> 23:24.002 you write thus, and I quote, Food and Agriculture 23:24.142 --> 23:28.183 Organization is more and more aware of this 23:29.384 --> 23:32.465 and has shown that one of the reasons for 23:32.725 --> 23:36.066 Asia's very high rate of soil degradation 23:37.107 --> 23:40.328 has been continuing deforestation, particularly 23:40.768 --> 23:45.550 in countries like Indonesia, Thailand, Cambodia, 23:46.490 --> 23:51.432 Vietnam, and now Myanmar. But this is a global 23:51.472 --> 23:55.851 phenomenon. How many more times will we have 23:55.911 --> 23:59.933 to read of devastating landslides or mudslips 24:01.194 --> 24:03.635 caused by deforestation in the surrounding 24:03.695 --> 24:07.577 hills? Much of that deforestation is caused 24:07.657 --> 24:10.558 by people desperate to find enough land for 24:10.598 --> 24:13.540 themselves and their families on the edge 24:13.580 --> 24:16.961 of existing towns and cities, end of quotations. 24:18.182 --> 24:21.787 Sir Jonathon, In light of the just concluded 24:22.087 --> 24:26.310 COP15 in Montreal, Canada, please talk to 24:26.451 --> 24:29.032 us about the significance of biodiversity 24:29.192 --> 24:32.895 in relation to the overarching issue of the 24:32.955 --> 24:34.116 climate emergency. 24:36.417 --> 24:40.881 I think one of the most important areas of 24:41.161 --> 24:43.402 research that has been going on for the last 24:36.417 --> 24:49.110 20, 30 years is all that research that shows 24:49.290 --> 24:53.234 just how dependent we are on the natural 24:53.754 --> 24:56.156 foundations for life on Earth. And by the 24:56.256 --> 25:00.820 natural foundations, I mean the soil on which 25:00.900 --> 25:03.622 we depend, the forests on which we depend, 25:03.662 --> 25:06.424 the flora, the fauna, the biodiversity as 25:06.524 --> 25:09.126 it's often called. I mean the oceans and 25:09.186 --> 25:11.789 rivers and the groundwater, the aquifers 25:11.869 --> 25:14.971 on which we depend. People who've been brought 25:15.071 --> 25:18.800 up in largely industrialized or consumer-driven 25:19.480 --> 25:22.923 economies, just forget that none of this 25:23.744 --> 25:26.006 consumption-driven economic growth would 25:26.046 --> 25:28.788 be possible without nature providing the 25:28.948 --> 25:34.172 underpinning source of wealth for those economies. 25:34.913 --> 25:37.054 So I was talking there about the phenomenon 25:37.094 --> 25:39.336 that is now very well understood, which is 25:39.416 --> 25:44.339 if you cut down trees on wooded, on very 25:44.419 --> 25:49.001 steep slopes around big cities in South America, 25:49.301 --> 25:52.522 in Africa, in the Far East, whatever it might 25:52.562 --> 25:57.824 be, then the soils from those slopes are 25:58.665 --> 26:02.046 made unstable. When the rains come, they 26:02.106 --> 26:04.687 hammer the soil. You get these terrible floods, 26:05.292 --> 26:08.715 which often then come crashing down into 26:08.855 --> 26:11.977 the favelas, the shanty towns, the settlements 26:12.598 --> 26:15.500 on the edge of these big cities. And it happens 26:15.700 --> 26:18.222 time after time after time with the loss 26:18.282 --> 26:21.605 of thousands of lives all the time. So it's 26:21.645 --> 26:23.627 a very simple story. If you want to protect 26:23.687 --> 26:27.170 people in those urban contexts, you have 26:27.190 --> 26:29.431 to protect the forest. You have to keep the 26:29.451 --> 26:31.933 forest intact. You have to make sure that 26:31.974 --> 26:34.562 they provide a stabilizing effect on the 26:34.642 --> 26:37.304 surrounding ecosystem to avoid the damage 26:37.364 --> 26:40.406 being done to those communities. And everywhere 26:40.426 --> 26:42.828 you look, whether it's water or soil or forests, 26:43.088 --> 26:44.489 whatever it is, it doesn't really matter. 26:44.509 --> 26:48.372 It's all about stability. It's all about 26:48.432 --> 26:50.774 providing the kind of conditions in which 26:50.834 --> 26:53.435 the human economy can continue to thrive. 26:54.336 --> 26:56.357 So people talk a lot more about soil now 26:56.417 --> 26:58.639 than they used to do 10 years ago. And that's 26:58.719 --> 27:02.862 because we have depleted our soils so badly 27:03.848 --> 27:05.569 that the productivity that we used to get 27:05.649 --> 27:07.811 from those soils, particularly with major 27:08.311 --> 27:12.834 cropped areas for wheat, corn, rice, soy, 27:13.075 --> 27:16.737 et cetera, the productivity has reduced. 27:16.997 --> 27:18.658 And it's only by virtue of continuing to 27:18.778 --> 27:21.781 use massive amounts of fertilizers that we 27:21.801 --> 27:23.982 can actually sustain the volumes of production 27:24.002 --> 27:26.515 that we need to feed the work. So at long 27:26.555 --> 27:28.196 last, people have woken up to the fact that 27:28.316 --> 27:30.998 mining the soil, depleting the soil structures, 27:31.318 --> 27:35.380 is a really, really stupid way of undermining 27:35.420 --> 27:37.541 the security of humankind. If we want to 27:37.601 --> 27:39.623 feed 8 billion people, which is where the 27:40.183 --> 27:42.224 population of the world is today, and then 27:42.284 --> 27:45.726 eventually to feed 10 billion people, which 27:45.786 --> 27:47.607 is probably the point at which the human 27:47.647 --> 27:52.210 population will peak, stabilize, and hopefully 27:52.250 --> 27:55.762 from that point on start to decline. then 27:55.862 --> 27:59.345 we have to protect these natural foundations. 27:59.665 --> 28:03.148 We have to make sure that our water, that 28:03.228 --> 28:05.970 our soils, that our forests, that our biodiversity 28:06.030 --> 28:10.254 are protected as a critical part of protecting 28:11.014 --> 28:13.917 opportunities to create wealth sustainably 28:13.957 --> 28:15.498 for people today and tomorrow. 28:18.701 --> 28:21.663 The title of our podcast is Climate Change, 28:21.923 --> 28:26.876 the New Apocalypse. So Jonathon, in the context 28:26.936 --> 28:30.577 of our podcast theme, does history show that 28:30.677 --> 28:35.980 we as a society only ever react to real environmental 28:36.060 --> 28:40.962 harms and never make law or policy which 28:41.002 --> 28:44.023 looks forward to control the effects of growth 28:44.263 --> 28:44.983 and technology? 28:47.124 --> 28:50.065 Yeah, that's a pretty worrying inquiry that 28:50.125 --> 28:53.448 you set in train there, Stephen. For what 28:53.508 --> 28:57.770 it's worth, I think we can avoid a new apocalypse. 28:58.030 --> 29:00.170 I don't think we've gone beyond the point 29:00.210 --> 29:02.631 of no return when it comes to the climate 29:02.671 --> 29:06.732 emergency or the collapse in natural systems. 29:07.433 --> 29:11.114 I believe we can still put in place the legal 29:11.985 --> 29:14.527 and policy mechanisms which would allow us 29:14.587 --> 29:16.789 to meet the needs of people in the world 29:16.829 --> 29:19.611 today without continuing to undermine the 29:19.651 --> 29:21.913 physical foundations on which those people's 29:21.953 --> 29:23.835 lives depend. I believe we can still do that 29:24.495 --> 29:25.996 but you're quite right to point out that 29:26.016 --> 29:29.219 that means we need the legal framework and 29:29.259 --> 29:32.401 the policy framework to ensure that that 29:32.482 --> 29:36.485 happens in a timely way because it's no good 29:36.505 --> 29:38.918 trying to do this retrospectively. If we 29:38.978 --> 29:41.320 go past these points of no return, then we 29:41.360 --> 29:43.381 won't be able to pull things back. It will 29:43.442 --> 29:46.724 then at that point be too late for the lives 29:46.764 --> 29:49.346 of hundreds of millions of people. So for 29:49.386 --> 29:52.008 me, the real failure of politicians today 29:52.348 --> 29:55.991 is that they will not confront that reality. 29:56.111 --> 29:59.093 They're not prepared to pass into law the 29:59.133 --> 30:01.995 kind of protections and safeguards and standards 30:02.797 --> 30:05.720 which would make it possible for our super 30:05.901 --> 30:10.005 technological industrial economies to deliver 30:10.025 --> 30:12.048 the goods and services that people want, 30:12.448 --> 30:14.531 but without the damage being done to the 30:14.571 --> 30:16.513 natural world and the damage being done to 30:16.533 --> 30:19.657 the climate which we see today. And I'm sorry 30:19.697 --> 30:22.620 to say the reason for those politicians not 30:22.760 --> 30:27.345 doing that is because they are often trapped 30:27.485 --> 30:31.590 by in the pockets of very powerful incumbent 30:31.790 --> 30:35.354 industries today. I'm sorry to say anybody 30:35.394 --> 30:38.017 who thinks that the big fossil fuel companies 30:38.117 --> 30:41.381 today and the whole raft of industries that 30:41.441 --> 30:44.224 come with the oil and gas and coal and everything 30:44.284 --> 30:46.006 else, the idea that they're just going to 30:47.071 --> 30:50.093 politely step aside and let the new energy 30:50.153 --> 30:53.155 world of renewables and storage and efficiency 30:53.195 --> 30:55.956 and new grids, et cetera, let that new world 30:56.617 --> 30:58.778 flourish. They are not going to do that. 30:59.899 --> 31:02.420 As someone said to me the other day, dinosaurs 31:02.600 --> 31:06.743 didn't die politely. And the truth of it 31:06.843 --> 31:11.285 is that the fossil fuel industries are dinosaurs. 31:12.046 --> 31:15.027 They are the past. That past is dying in 31:15.087 --> 31:18.791 front of our eyes. But as it dies, it's doing 31:18.951 --> 31:21.053 a great deal of damage at the same time. 31:21.633 --> 31:25.116 So we need laws to ensure that that doesn't 31:25.176 --> 31:27.198 happen and that the damage they cause will 31:27.238 --> 31:29.599 be limited. And one law in particular, Stephen, 31:29.619 --> 31:32.442 that I'm very interested in and a big supporter 31:32.522 --> 31:35.564 of is something called ecocide, a law to 31:35.704 --> 31:38.887 stop the destruction, continuing destruction 31:39.027 --> 31:42.189 to the natural world, to be brought in in 31:42.389 --> 31:45.294 such a way that it would be the equivalent 31:45.334 --> 31:50.218 of a human rights law, legal binding on business 31:50.358 --> 31:53.380 and governments not to carry on with the 31:53.460 --> 31:55.281 irreversible damage that they're inflicting 31:55.341 --> 31:58.383 on nature at the moment. And the Stop Ecoside 31:58.423 --> 32:00.865 campaign is gathering strength all the time. 32:01.726 --> 32:04.447 The Rome Statute can be amended to allow 32:04.567 --> 32:07.830 for this very important understanding of 32:07.890 --> 32:11.111 ecocide. Ecoside simply means killing nature, 32:11.271 --> 32:14.093 eco is nature and side means killing it as 32:14.153 --> 32:17.555 in suicide and homicide and so on. We need 32:17.595 --> 32:21.037 laws of that kind now if we're going to stop 32:21.057 --> 32:23.599 the worst damage continuing as it does today. 32:27.402 --> 32:29.984 So Jonathon, what three things would you 32:30.844 --> 32:34.467 encourage ordinary people to do which, if 32:34.607 --> 32:37.849 followed, would have the maximum impact on 32:37.909 --> 32:42.185 reducing carbon emissions? and would a more 32:42.385 --> 32:45.827 multicultural environmental movement be more 32:45.967 --> 32:48.448 effective against climate change? 32:51.229 --> 32:52.990 You've wrapped two questions in one there 32:53.030 --> 32:54.891 Stephen, which is an old trick but a good 32:54.991 --> 32:59.353 one. On the second part of that, would a 32:59.373 --> 33:01.614 more multicultural environment movement be 33:01.654 --> 33:04.936 more effective in changing the way we live 33:04.996 --> 33:07.177 and thinking about what we owe each other 33:07.237 --> 33:10.264 and other people in the world today and what 33:10.304 --> 33:12.687 we owe future generations, I've always believed 33:12.727 --> 33:16.451 that to be absolutely critical. If I look 33:16.511 --> 33:19.514 at Europe and I look at America and I think 33:19.594 --> 33:22.838 about the ways in which the environment movement 33:22.878 --> 33:25.861 in those countries has fought their campaigns, 33:26.061 --> 33:29.104 it's been a predominantly middle class white 33:29.665 --> 33:33.522 social movement. Now that is changing and 33:33.562 --> 33:35.783 it's changing fast. In America it's changing 33:36.124 --> 33:38.005 because more and more people in America have 33:38.065 --> 33:41.528 linked a lot of the issues to do with poverty 33:41.588 --> 33:44.430 and oppression and racism, particularly in 33:44.670 --> 33:48.953 southern United States, states of USA. They've 33:49.013 --> 33:52.496 linked that story about justice for black 33:52.536 --> 33:56.909 communities to environmental injustice We've 33:56.949 --> 33:59.190 got a generation of brilliant campaigners 33:59.250 --> 34:02.410 now across the whole of South America. We've 34:02.430 --> 34:05.251 got incredibly brave, committed campaigners, 34:05.331 --> 34:08.111 as you will know, throughout Africa, from 34:08.171 --> 34:11.512 North Africa to West Africa to sub-Saharan 34:11.612 --> 34:15.333 Africa. I look now at the way those campaigners 34:15.373 --> 34:18.814 are changing the whole nations, every nation's 34:18.874 --> 34:21.294 approach to campaigning. And I have to say 34:21.314 --> 34:23.415 that globally now, the environment movement 34:24.175 --> 34:26.727 looks very, very different. from the way 34:26.787 --> 34:29.529 it looked 20 or 30 years ago. And that's 34:29.569 --> 34:32.831 good because we know that we can't do this. 34:33.272 --> 34:34.873 No nation can do it on its own. We've got 34:34.893 --> 34:39.515 to do this together. But whatever country 34:39.556 --> 34:42.017 we come from, whatever our own background 34:42.057 --> 34:45.940 might be, we've all got personal responsibilities. 34:45.980 --> 34:49.382 We've all got to do what we can to help accelerate 34:49.442 --> 34:51.603 this transition to a much more sustainable 34:51.643 --> 34:53.404 way of living. And you asked there about 34:53.464 --> 34:55.366 the things that we can really do. It depends 34:55.426 --> 34:57.635 slightly, which country you're living in 34:57.675 --> 35:00.837 and what your opportunities are, the degree 35:00.877 --> 35:03.098 to which you've actually got agency to make 35:03.138 --> 35:05.740 a real difference in your own life. So I'm 35:05.760 --> 35:07.981 going to say one thing here for rich world 35:08.021 --> 35:10.603 countries, which is massively to reduce the 35:10.643 --> 35:13.685 consumption of meat. Meat production today, 35:13.705 --> 35:17.327 meat production and consumption is a hugely 35:17.367 --> 35:21.090 damaging part of the overall global economy, 35:21.630 --> 35:23.591 causing massive damage to the environment, 35:23.731 --> 35:27.748 water, to biodiversity, emitting millions 35:27.828 --> 35:29.950 and millions of tons of greenhouse gases 35:30.170 --> 35:33.972 every year, causing terrible cruelty to the 35:34.092 --> 35:36.993 billions of farmed animals in the world today. 35:37.694 --> 35:40.355 And one of the biggest things we can do to 35:40.395 --> 35:42.296 make a difference is to reduce average meat 35:42.336 --> 35:45.401 consumption in rich world countries. And 35:45.441 --> 35:47.682 that's not as impossible as it sounds. As 35:47.722 --> 35:49.663 you probably know, Steve, large numbers of 35:49.703 --> 35:52.124 young people are already deciding to eat 35:52.184 --> 35:54.185 less meat for themselves. They can see it's 35:54.225 --> 35:56.385 better for them, better for their health, 35:56.606 --> 36:00.147 far better for farmed animals in the world 36:00.187 --> 36:02.228 today, and better for the environment and 36:02.248 --> 36:04.709 the climate. But even as you say, eat less 36:04.749 --> 36:06.449 meat, you have to look around the world and 36:06.469 --> 36:07.910 you say, well, for an awful lot of people 36:07.930 --> 36:10.631 in the world today, an opportunity to eat 36:10.691 --> 36:14.011 meat is still a really important part. of 36:14.131 --> 36:16.812 improving their own standard of living. So 36:17.752 --> 36:20.092 one needs to be culturally sensitive when 36:20.112 --> 36:23.553 you put forward these ideas. So that matters. 36:23.633 --> 36:25.253 That's the first one I'd mentioned. The second, 36:25.273 --> 36:29.154 of course, is being consciously aware of 36:29.214 --> 36:31.974 what we can do to reduce our impact through 36:32.394 --> 36:34.775 energy, through transport, through how we 36:35.255 --> 36:38.115 live ourselves, our lifestyles. One can often 36:38.535 --> 36:41.596 achieve the same quality of life with a massively 36:41.656 --> 36:44.075 reduced environmental footprint. And the 36:44.115 --> 36:45.915 third area, and this applies whether we're 36:45.955 --> 36:48.056 talking about rich world or poor world countries, 36:48.076 --> 36:50.196 it doesn't really matter. The third area 36:50.336 --> 36:52.817 is this crucial thing about working through 36:52.977 --> 36:57.317 communities. People do talk about individual 36:57.377 --> 36:59.798 responsibility, and they mean by that that 36:59.858 --> 37:04.059 what do we do ourselves to try and reduce 37:04.519 --> 37:06.539 the impact that we have on the natural world 37:06.779 --> 37:08.519 and on other people. And that's crucial. 37:09.019 --> 37:11.540 But we are all members of communities. We 37:11.640 --> 37:15.194 have all got connections and bonds that tie 37:15.234 --> 37:18.355 us into local places. And one of the most 37:18.415 --> 37:20.135 important things that I discovered when I 37:20.175 --> 37:22.296 was director of Friends of the Earth back 37:22.356 --> 37:26.357 in the 1980s is that one can achieve a huge 37:26.417 --> 37:28.837 amount by mobilizing people's collective 37:29.037 --> 37:32.898 endeavor at the community level. So for me, 37:32.938 --> 37:35.759 when somebody says, what do you think we 37:35.819 --> 37:38.079 can do to make a difference here? I say, 37:38.139 --> 37:40.180 well, do you know what's going on in your 37:40.220 --> 37:44.037 own community? Do you know what organizations 37:44.117 --> 37:47.578 you've got, community groups, volunteer groups, 37:47.638 --> 37:50.699 whatever it might be, probably working really 37:50.779 --> 37:53.439 hard on your behalf to protect the local 37:53.479 --> 37:55.840 environment, to help raise awareness, to 37:55.960 --> 37:58.340 educate others, to support groups, whatever 37:58.380 --> 38:00.821 it might be. Do you know that? And if you 38:00.841 --> 38:03.481 do, then why don't you find ways of supporting 38:03.521 --> 38:04.401 them and helping Them? 38:08.302 --> 38:11.063 So, Jonathon, what was the most significant 38:11.143 --> 38:12.403 turning point in your life? 38:15.590 --> 38:17.391 I am going to cheat here Stephen and give 38:17.411 --> 38:19.953 you two significant turning points because 38:21.734 --> 38:24.575 they both turned out to be really crucial 38:24.615 --> 38:26.536 for me. The first I touched on quickly which 38:26.597 --> 38:30.579 is when I decided that I wanted to be a teacher 38:30.639 --> 38:33.521 rather than a lawyer. My parents thought 38:33.541 --> 38:36.802 I was mad obviously because the law provided 38:36.842 --> 38:39.444 a much more steady and respectable route 38:39.604 --> 38:41.685 to the kind of life they hoped I'd have. 38:42.566 --> 38:44.347 Joining the Green Party and teaching in a 38:45.313 --> 38:46.814 or turned out to be a comprehensive school, 38:46.854 --> 38:48.395 eventually wasn't exactly what they had in 38:48.435 --> 38:51.276 mind for me. But it was through that education 38:51.557 --> 38:54.438 role as a teacher that I learned at first 38:54.478 --> 38:58.641 hand how crucially important access to the 38:58.681 --> 39:00.922 natural world and a quality environment is 39:01.002 --> 39:03.744 for all young people. The part of London 39:03.784 --> 39:06.765 I was working in, in White City, west of 39:06.805 --> 39:08.866 London, was a pretty deprived community. 39:08.947 --> 39:10.968 Most kids there hadn't had any access to 39:11.768 --> 39:14.530 nature at all. So that got me into the reality 39:14.570 --> 39:18.754 of what the environment needs to meet in 39:18.794 --> 39:21.395 their lives for them. And through that, I 39:21.435 --> 39:23.556 got involved then, of course, in the Green 39:23.576 --> 39:27.237 Party, became director of Friends of the 39:27.257 --> 39:29.918 Earth in 1984, and then have based the rest 39:29.958 --> 39:31.799 of my life on that kind of experience. So 39:31.999 --> 39:34.279 that was an absolute turning point. Without 39:34.339 --> 39:37.500 that, I, God knows, I'd be some stuck-up 39:37.620 --> 39:40.762 lawyer somewhere in some big city telling 39:40.922 --> 39:42.462 people how to live their lives, which would 39:42.482 --> 39:46.631 be very unfortunate. But the second turning 39:46.651 --> 39:50.194 point was equally crucial, although I didn't 39:50.214 --> 39:52.696 know it at the time, was at the Earth Summit 39:52.796 --> 39:57.140 in 1992. And this, as you know, was an enormous 39:57.360 --> 40:02.304 gathering of world leaders and other stakeholder 40:02.344 --> 40:03.885 groups from around the world, whether they 40:03.905 --> 40:07.448 were businesses or farmer groups, young people's 40:07.528 --> 40:09.790 groups, women's groups. It was just an incredible 40:10.351 --> 40:14.131 turnout of civil society as well as of official 40:14.731 --> 40:16.872 government delegations and world leaders. 40:17.412 --> 40:19.873 And it all took place in Rio de Janeiro in 38:15.590 --> 40:22.373 1992, which I attended and spent three weeks 40:22.453 --> 40:25.614 there. Just, I suppose, understanding the 40:25.714 --> 40:28.375 power of solutions to make things happen. 40:29.475 --> 40:31.475 In Friends of the Earth and the Green Party, 40:31.575 --> 40:34.816 I spent most of my time trying to stop bad 40:35.036 --> 40:37.977 things happening. And although we all have 40:38.017 --> 40:39.857 to go on doing that, and unfortunately I 40:39.877 --> 40:41.398 will have to go on doing that until the day 40:41.438 --> 40:44.366 that I die, There's the other half to that, 40:44.426 --> 40:45.947 which is trying to make good things happen. 40:46.187 --> 40:48.449 And I came away from the Earth Summit in 38:15.590 --> 40:50.031 1992, realizing that we needed to put as 40:50.091 --> 40:52.193 much energy into making good things happen 40:52.653 --> 40:54.795 as stopping bad things happening. And that's 40:54.815 --> 40:57.557 what led to Forum for the Future, launched 40:57.657 --> 41:00.560 in 1996. A number of other initiatives came 41:00.620 --> 41:02.341 out of that. I was the co-founder of the 41:02.501 --> 41:04.623 Prince of Wales' Business and Sustainability 41:04.663 --> 41:08.866 Programme, set up in 1994. And a whole host 41:08.927 --> 41:12.722 of new things began to emerge in my life 41:12.802 --> 41:15.244 as a consequence of that and for the last 38:15.590 --> 41:17.986 30 years therefore that's sort of been the 41:18.026 --> 41:21.269 driving force in my life is empowering people 41:21.329 --> 41:25.532 through solutions at the same time as reminding 41:25.573 --> 41:28.695 people of what happens if we don't stop many 41:28.735 --> 41:30.817 of these bad things happening. The two things 41:30.877 --> 41:33.999 have to get hand in hand and always will. 41:37.342 --> 41:40.370 And finally Sir Jonathon, Please advise our 41:40.430 --> 41:42.631 listeners where they may find your book, 41:43.151 --> 41:44.192 Hope in Hell. 41:47.713 --> 41:50.194 The best place to find Hope in Hell is from 41:50.354 --> 41:52.975 my publishers. That's a company called Simon& 41:53.135 --> 41:55.615 Schuster. And if you go on their website, 41:55.635 --> 41:58.697 you can order it directly from there. The 41:58.717 --> 42:01.157 book was written now more than three years 42:01.177 --> 42:03.418 ago. So it's been out and about for a long 42:03.558 --> 42:05.819 time now. I actually had to launch Hope in 42:05.839 --> 42:09.189 Hell. during the first year of Covid, so 42:09.209 --> 42:11.249 I had to do an online launch, which wasn't 42:11.309 --> 42:18.131 much fun, in 2020, and since then I've revised 42:18.171 --> 42:19.872 the book a couple of times, so the latest 42:20.032 --> 42:22.192 paperback version of Hope in Hell has all 42:22.272 --> 42:24.993 the latest revisions that I introduced to 42:25.113 --> 42:28.414 it last year. It is unbelievable, though, 42:28.554 --> 42:30.935 Stephen, just how much things have changed 42:31.255 --> 42:34.916 in the last three years. I look now at some 42:34.956 --> 42:38.949 of the Some of the context in which I was 42:39.029 --> 42:41.531 writing Hope in Hell four years ago, started 42:41.571 --> 42:43.552 writing it four years ago, and things have 42:43.612 --> 42:46.094 changed dramatically since then. I just want 42:46.114 --> 42:48.576 to end by reminding your listeners that things 42:48.616 --> 42:50.657 have changed for good as well as changed 42:50.777 --> 42:52.699 for bad. So the things that have changed 42:52.739 --> 42:55.320 for good has been a massive acceleration 42:55.841 --> 42:58.162 in the take up of renewable electricity and 42:58.202 --> 42:59.944 technologies of one kind or another. Last 42:59.984 --> 43:05.047 year, a trillion dollars was invested in 43:05.347 --> 43:08.789 renewable energy technologies around the 43:08.829 --> 43:12.970 world first time ever that that son has exceeded 43:13.030 --> 43:15.591 the trillion dollar mark and that's in china 43:15.611 --> 43:17.931 and india as much as in the usa and europe 43:17.991 --> 43:20.671 and so on so we're seeing this accelerated 43:21.112 --> 43:23.872 acceptance of the need now to decarbonize 43:23.892 --> 43:26.793 our economies as fast as possible and there 43:26.833 --> 43:31.253 are many many other really good strong upsides 43:31.433 --> 43:33.474 to the transition that people are not talking 43:33.514 --> 43:37.266 about but of course you can't Help but acknowledge 43:37.726 --> 43:39.607 that there's been an acceleration in the 43:40.208 --> 43:43.390 bad side of things as well. Climate disasters 43:43.830 --> 43:46.071 have become more intense, more frequent. 41:47.713 --> 43:50.054 2022 was a dreadful year for climate impacts 43:50.394 --> 43:54.377 on people, and I fear that 2023 will be much 43:54.477 --> 43:58.760 the same. Things just move faster all the 43:58.800 --> 44:00.921 time, both the good things and the bad things. 44:01.081 --> 44:04.738 We're in a race against time here. if we 44:04.778 --> 44:06.819 can make these solutions deliver the goods 44:06.879 --> 44:10.079 to people in a more timely and cost-effective 44:10.139 --> 44:12.680 way, then we still have a chance of avoiding 44:13.700 --> 44:17.261 the new apocalypse as you describe it. And 44:17.301 --> 44:19.262 that's essentially the biggest challenge 44:19.302 --> 44:21.162 that all of us face in our lives today. 44:23.803 --> 44:26.543 Sir Jonathon Porritt, you cannot begin to 44:26.623 --> 44:30.164 imagine what an honour and privilege it is 44:30.244 --> 44:32.685 to hear you speak on such a huge subject. 44:33.882 --> 44:36.804 Your clarity of thought and purpose is an 44:36.924 --> 44:40.167 inspiration. Thank you so much for taking 44:40.187 --> 44:42.288 the time to share your thoughts with us. 44:45.090 --> 44:46.612 Thank you, Stephen. I have much enjoyed the 44:46.652 --> 44:49.534 conversation as I thought we would. I'm glad 44:49.554 --> 44:55.238 that this is just one of three of these conversations 44:55.278 --> 44:57.740 that you are having now about the new apocalypse, 44:57.860 --> 45:00.182 about climate change. Very important that 45:00.222 --> 45:02.742 people get their heads around all of this 45:02.923 --> 45:04.863 and begin to think for themselves what they 45:04.903 --> 45:07.144 can help do to address the challenges. So 45:07.404 --> 45:09.844 congratulations to you. Thank you. 45:11.785 --> 45:14.066 This podcast was brought to you by The Kamugasa 45:14.386 --> 45:17.467 Challenge. A special thank you goes to three 45:17.627 --> 45:19.527 extraordinary individuals for their kind 45:19.587 --> 45:21.768 contribution to this podcast, and they are 45:22.948 --> 45:27.149 Dr Richard Kimblin, a King's Council at No. 45:11.785 --> 45:30.831 5 Barristers Chambers UK, He specializes 45:30.971 --> 45:35.094 in planning and environmental law. Dr. Julian 45:35.275 --> 45:39.058 Agyeman, a professor of urban and environmental 45:39.118 --> 45:43.001 policy and planning. Dr. Agyeman is also 45:43.021 --> 45:46.444 a Fletcher professor of rhetoric and debate 45:46.584 --> 45:50.527 at Tufts University in the USA. And finally, 45:51.628 --> 45:55.471 Mr. Mark Bolton, an associate of Eco Church 45:55.872 --> 45:59.493 Birmingham in the UK. Clearly, age has not 45:59.553 --> 46:02.094 diminished his passion for the environment. 46:03.054 --> 46:05.435 Their kind contributions have made this podcast 46:05.555 --> 46:09.236 possible. Thank you. The second instalment 46:10.077 --> 46:12.297 in our climate change series is entitled 46:12.657 --> 46:15.538 How to Love Endangered and Misunderstood 46:15.678 --> 46:19.660 Animals, an interview with Ms. Maria Diekmann, 46:20.360 --> 46:23.921 a scientist and a conservationist. It will 46:23.961 --> 46:28.936 go live on the 10th of April 2023. Thank 46:28.976 --> 46:31.119 you very much for taking the time to listen 46:31.139 --> 46:34.404 to this podcast. If you enjoy the podcast, 46:34.504 --> 46:38.049 please follow and subscribe to us. Until 46:38.069 --> 46:40.352 next time, goodbye.