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Hello, welcome back to Conversations with

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Stephen Kamugasa. Today's guest is Emeritus

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Professor Susan Edwards of the University

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of Buckingham. Susan Edwards is a researcher

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and campaigner holding degrees in both law

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and social sciences and a barrister. She

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campaigned for many years in the areas of

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women's international human rights, including

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lecturing in the United States of America,

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the Middle East, Australia, and Europe. An

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author of five books, plus co-writing a book,

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she has edited numerous journals and is an

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opinion writer for several leading newspapers,

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The Times, The Guardian, and The Age in Australia.

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Her latest work, The Political Appropriation

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of the Muslim Body, Islamophobia, Counterterrorism

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Law and Gender, is the subject of this podcast

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interview. In this episode, we discuss Professor

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Edward's thesis that values and principles

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of democracy, the rule of law, freedom of

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speech, and gender equality have been appropriated

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by politicians as a clock to advance Western

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power, territorial, and military ambitions

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against the Middle East, and in effect, Muslims.

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Susan, welcome.

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Thank you Stephen, I'm delighted to be here

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and joining you in your podcast series.

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Baroness Helena Kennedy QC, after reviewing

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your book Susan, wrote the following, and

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I quote, this is a serious and important

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book. We only have to review the human rights

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abuses domestically and globally to see that

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Muslims are facing targeted crimes, cruel

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discrimination, and vicious ill treatment

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on an alarming scale. In some places, it's

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surmounting to genocide. Susan, please tell

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us about a specific instance that touched

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your heart so powerfully that made you say,

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that's it, enough is enough, I must write

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this book.

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Thank you, Stephen. I'm going to just perhaps

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respond to that, first of all, to tell you

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how I came to write this book, and then I'll

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say a little bit about what I think Helena

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Baroness Kennedy was referring to when she

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made that commendation of the book. Enough

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is enough, you've put it like this. Well,

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actually, Stephen, there was no eureka moment.

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It was really incremental. I've been writing,

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for example, about women, as you've said,

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for 40 years. And so, of course, the dress

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issue, the dress wars, the dress laws that

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were developing, particularly in Europe and

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France, prohibiting the headscarf, regulating

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the headscarf in particular contexts, and

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then of course the niqab in 2010, that issue

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became a very important moment in building

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this kind of incremental position that I

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came to where I felt it was impossible not

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to speak. So there was the head scoff. Of

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course, there's been the whole question of

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the war on terror right from the early 2000s,

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the invasion of Afghanistan, the invasion

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of Iraq. that's been another moment. There's

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also been Shamima Begum, who in fact in this

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country, even today there's a report in the

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Daily Mail about her. She was the woman who

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left the United Kingdom when she was 15 in

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2015 and went to Syria to join ISIS. And

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My interest in that was the way in which

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she had been failed as a child, as far as

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our laws are concerned. She was 15 years

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of age. She has been failed as a child. And

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I'll have the opportunity, I hope, to say

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a little bit more about that. So there was

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Shamima Begum. And there were many other

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instances. I mentioned the war on terror.

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There was the rise in hate crime. There was

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Brexit and Trump extremism. I mean, there

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were so many forces that were converging.

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that made it impossible for me to be silent.

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And I had in my writing, in all those areas,

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tried to contextualize women in dress. And

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why was it that it was so stereotyped and

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positioned in a particular way from state-sponsored

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distortions, if you like? Why was it that

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the state and politicians were silent about

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any other narrative to do with Shebina Begum.

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And why was it that they positioned the war

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on terror, the US, the UK, in the way that

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it did? And I wanted to contextualize it,

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but I did in my writings, I did in my teaching,

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I did in my lectures. And what I found was

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that I was running against the grain of the

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official narrative, which seemed to be fixed

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in its meaning. and there wasn't sufficient

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discourse that really looked at the way in

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which the headscarf, for example, had polysemic

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meanings, had a variety of meanings, and

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as of course Stuart Hall said when he was

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talking about Franz Fanon, And Franz Fanon,

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in his work, Black Skin, White Mask, also

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talked about, of course, Algeria, and he

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talked about the headscarf in that context.

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But I took from that his expression, no sign

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is fixed in its meaning. And this was very

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important to try and contextualize the whole

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headscarf. So I tried to do that. I tried

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to contextualize why was it that young people

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were leaving to join ISIS? I tried to contextualize

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why was it that Muslims were so vilified

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collectively and those who were associated

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or connected with Muslims. Why was it? And

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again, I found I was going against the grain.

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There was a refusal of many politicians in

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the West to consider the impact of what they

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called foreign policy, so-called. stripping,

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of course, the language so cleverly has stripped

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a lot of the meaning and the intention behind

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it. Foreign policy doesn't sound very dangerous

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when in fact it's being used to expand imperialistically

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the territorial ambitions that you referred

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to. So I then came to feeling that it was

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impossible for me and I think it's important

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to position myself as I've tried to do in

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the book. Why should I speak about this?

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What place do I have to speak about counter-terrorism

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laws, war on terror, Islamophobia? And I

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make clear in the introduction that I don't

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want to take the place of anybody to speak.

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I don't want to steal that platform because

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that's the whole problem that I'm trying

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to look at in my book, that the other platforms,

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the alternative narratives have been silenced

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or stolen. I didn't wish to do that but the

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other reason which has driven me for many

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years to have a particular view on this and

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perhaps it's a view which is on both sides

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of the argument that I have the privilege

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to see because through marriage and my own

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family connections for 40 years I have been

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very much connected with a Muslim family.

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And so for that reason as well, the personal

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is the political, and I felt, and the political

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is very personal, and I felt that I should

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speak. But just moving on to addressing the

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commendation, if you like, from Baroness

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Kennedy QC, in her role as director of the

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International Bar Association Human Rights

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Institute, when she talks about genocide,

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she's also today referring implicitly to

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the treatment of the Rohingya Muslims in

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Myanmar, 1.4 million of them, and she's also

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referring to the 2 million Uyghurs in the

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Xinjiang area in China, and their persecution

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and their genocide. And of course, in China,

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there is an objective of making them simply

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disappear. So again, we're talking about

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Muslims globally. So Islamophobia becomes

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a very important way to look at this. And

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not only a way to look at it, it has become

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a way of defining a number of very diverse

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people across the world. It is a systemic

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racism, which is at the heart of my book

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and its manifestations.

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The Runnymede definition of Islamophobia

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is as follows, and I quote, Islamophobia

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is any distinction exclusion or restriction

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towards or preference against Muslims or

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those perceived to be Muslims that has the

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purpose or effect of nullifying or impairing

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the recognition, enjoyment or exercise on

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an equal footing. of human rights and fundamental

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freedoms in the political, economic, social,

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cultural, or any other field of public life,"

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end of quotation. Susan, please tell our

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audience in layman's language, I think you've

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dealt with it earlier, what Islamophobia

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actually looks like on the streets of, say,

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London.

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Well, Islamophobia too, thank you Stephen

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for that. Islamophobia is a very contested

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construct and I think in the book to not

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get too rooted in the debate about the meaning

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of Islamophobia and why it is contested and

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why it is resisted because that could be

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a book in itself. I use the word anti-Muslim

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prejudice, anti-Muslim discrimination, anti-Muslim

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hatred in the same sense as Islamophobia.

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I agree with the Runnymede definition which

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in fact was a definition going back to 1997

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Stephen and it was if you like resurrected

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and reused in 2017 and it's been a definition

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which has been agreed by the old party group

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on Muslims, but not by the Conservative Party.

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In fact, for two years, they have refused

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to acknowledge that definition. I don't know

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whether you want to remind everybody again

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of what it is, in the sense of perhaps you

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would just remind the audience of what it

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is, because the Conservative government are

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refusing to acknowledge that, and some others

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which I will come back to. Perhaps could

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you remind our audience?

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The definition runs as follows, and I quote,

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Islamophobia is any distinction, exclusion

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or restriction towards or preference against

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Muslims or those perceived to be Muslims

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that has the purpose or effect of nullifying

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or impairing the recognition, enjoyment or

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exercise on an equal footing of human rights

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and fundamental freedoms in the political,

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economic, social, cultural or any other field

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of public life."

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Well, it's a bit difficult to see what exactly

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is the problem with that or why there is

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resistance to that definition. So let's just

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have a look at the resistance. As I've said,

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the Conservative government for two years

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has not accepted it. The Police are concerned

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about it, some on the left are concerned,

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and some what I would call liberals are concerned.

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So, I mean, you know, the government won't

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accept it because, of course, if they introduce

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and they do their counter-terrorist legislation

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and their prevent policy, they feel that

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it may have a limiting effect on some of

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the legal framework that they have developed.

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The police are concerned that it will impact

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on policing operations and surveillance and

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be seen as Islamophobic. Some on the left

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are concerned, now this is important I think,

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but some on the left are concerned that the

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term will inhibit the proper criticism of

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the conservative elements within the Muslim

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community and the left, some on the left,

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I'm talking and thinking primarily of some

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women feminists on the left who are concerned

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that a critique of the conservative elements

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in some Islamic communities that will inhibit

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any attempt to bring about a more equal treatment

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of women within their communities. But there's

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also the problem, I think, of the so-called

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liberals as well, who argue, and for example,

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if we think about Melanie Phillips, the journalist,

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she has said that the concept of Islamophobia

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is anti-Jew. And I actually deal with that

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in the book. And what's important to also

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refer to is that the Board of Deputies of

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British Jews, for an example, do not agree

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with Melanie Phillips that the term is anti-Jew

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And why might it be so? It might be so because

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some of those who argue that society is Islamophobic

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may also be those who are concerned about

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the treatment of Palestinians in the occupied

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territories. And there we go off into another

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debate. which I'm going to leave to one side

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for the moment. You said on the streets.

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Well, on the streets. I suppose on the streets

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we could see that what are the streets now?

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Well, the streets are online, social media,

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the media. the streets, mosques, the streets

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are places where in fact women, particularly

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because of their visibility, experience hate

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crime, assaults and insults, so on the streets.

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But on the streets, as I say, is also the

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media and its virulent depiction and obsessive

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depiction of Muslims as a group to be feared.

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So in a sense, that's on the streets, the

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fake stories of Muslims. For example, the

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Leveson inquiry in the United Kingdom revealed

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many things, one of which was the Islamophobia

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of particular newspapers especially, and

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some testimonies actually revealed the fact

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that some newspapers made up fake stories

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to appeal to their readership. Hate speech

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and, of course, hate speech and anti-Muslim

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speech within political parties and the Conservative

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Party. In recent times, we've seen that 57%

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of the Conservative Party have been said

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to have negative attitudes. invasion of other

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streets? Well, we have, of course, Islamophobia

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that manifests itself in the invasion of

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Afghanistan, Iraq, and other countries, and

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we're seeing Islamophobia on the streets

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absolutely now, today, across Europe, within

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the European Union, within the United Kingdom

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now, in its treatment of refugees who are

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fleeing the crises that have been created

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in the Middle East, in Iraq, in Syria, in

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Afghanistan have been created by British

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and American foreign policy. So that is part

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of my response, I think, to that invitation.

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In your book, you write extensively about

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Orientalism Susan, is there a way of cultivating

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a serious interest in prioritising justice

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over short-term popularity than highlighting

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the impact of Orientalism on the families

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and friends who happen to be Muslims?

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Is there a way forward? That's a huge question.

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When we have a media and we have a whole

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legal, media, political framework and architecture

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that doesn't provide the other narrative

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which I'm spoke about earlier that what I

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call the counter narrative and just to say

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something about the word Orientalism which

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may be new to some of your audience. What

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is it? Well Edward Said, the late Edward

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Said wrote magnificently in many books and

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articles on what he saw as Orientalism and

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it was he said a whole perceptual universe,

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if you like, of the way in which, whether

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it was art, literature, politics, media,

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the superstructures within society, how the

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whole notion of the West being the civilized

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and the Near East and Middle East being the

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uncivilized was projected constantly and

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continuously. And if we look at this perceptual

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universe, so he talked about that historically,

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but he brought it through to today, particularly

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in one of his works called Covering Islam.

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And if we look at that perceptual universe

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today, we've only got to look at the stereotypes

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within drama, within film, about the Muslim,

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the Arab as dangerous. And he talked Edward

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Said identified the way in which this persistent,

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perpetual trope of the Muslim Arab man as

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dangerous was promulgated. And he talked

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about this as being Orientalism, Orientalism

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being the whole of the framework that I've

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described. And of course, that continues

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today. Shakira Hussain, who's also recommended

21:09.583 --> 21:12.985
my book. She has written a marvellous book

21:13.165 --> 21:17.288
called From Victims to Suspects, looking

21:17.388 --> 21:22.351
at Muslim women after 9-11. And I suppose

21:22.531 --> 21:25.072
that's a link in a sense with of course what

21:25.132 --> 21:31.349
Edward Said who sadly died in 2003. Professor

21:31.669 --> 21:35.550
Saeed's work, of course, and his framework

21:35.570 --> 21:39.571
has continued to influence and inform writers

21:39.831 --> 21:42.992
and myself because that Orientalism continues

21:44.653 --> 21:47.373
and the demonization, vilification, hatred

21:47.413 --> 21:51.314
and insult of Muslims and Arabs continues

21:51.515 --> 21:54.844
and it actually influences and supports,

21:54.944 --> 21:57.425
it's a narrative, it's an ideology, it's

21:57.505 --> 22:00.666
a belief system, an artificial belief system,

22:01.086 --> 22:04.287
which has informed the war on terror. If

22:04.307 --> 22:07.688
we look at Bush and Blair, the language,

22:08.009 --> 22:12.610
we, they were going to civilize and bring

22:12.690 --> 22:17.492
human rights to Afghanistan and to Iraq and

22:18.312 --> 22:23.954
to rid Iraq of Saddam Hussein. And of course,

22:24.555 --> 22:27.936
save women. Save women, that rather sticks

22:27.976 --> 22:30.957
in my throat because these were not countries

22:30.997 --> 22:33.298
that were particularly treating women in

22:33.358 --> 22:35.278
their countries as equal. And all of a sudden,

22:36.159 --> 22:40.040
with the help of Mrs. Bush as well, they

22:40.080 --> 22:45.602
were going to save women, save Arab women,

22:45.642 --> 22:48.623
Muslim women from the Arab and Muslim male.

22:49.463 --> 22:54.207
And so Orientalism as a whole perceptual

22:54.287 --> 22:57.750
universe went on to inform and support and

22:57.830 --> 23:02.013
condone foreign policy. And of course it

23:02.053 --> 23:06.877
had an impact as well on hate crime and it

23:06.917 --> 23:12.141
had an impact on supporting the anti-Muslim

23:12.181 --> 23:16.865
prejudice and discrimination. Have I answered

23:16.905 --> 23:17.706
that question?

23:19.098 --> 23:21.139
I think you've answered it quite exhaustively.

23:22.540 --> 23:26.463
How far has the right-wing populism influenced

23:26.503 --> 23:29.005
politicians with special reference to Muslims?

23:32.928 --> 23:36.670
Well, I'm sure you would agree that just

23:36.730 --> 23:41.934
looking back as a social commentator on Europe

23:42.114 --> 23:46.417
in the last couple of decades and the last

23:46.497 --> 23:48.799
decade and the last few years especially,

23:49.482 --> 23:54.846
there has been a lurch to the right and right-wing

23:55.386 --> 23:58.989
popularism has become more normalized and

23:59.009 --> 24:04.713
more mainstream. And we could go through

24:04.793 --> 24:07.896
each of the countries and exactly what's

24:07.956 --> 24:13.039
happened with fusing a notion of nationalism

24:13.059 --> 24:17.102
and nationalistic pride with really what

24:17.182 --> 24:22.478
xenophobia and that tendency has been happening

24:22.578 --> 24:26.020
and it's been talked about by many writers

24:27.100 --> 24:29.882
and part of that right-wing populism has

24:29.962 --> 24:34.964
been almost putting up the anti-migrant immigrant

24:35.024 --> 24:38.626
card as the number one agenda and within

24:38.706 --> 24:43.109
that Muslims have of course borne very much

24:43.189 --> 24:47.191
the brunt of that right-wing populism and

24:47.231 --> 24:50.917
we could think of Goethe-Wilders in Holland,

24:51.598 --> 24:57.264
and I do write in my book on refugees and,

24:57.404 --> 25:02.189
if you like, put up as one of the main protagonists

25:02.530 --> 25:06.354
of this right-wing populism, Hungary and

25:06.414 --> 25:10.364
its building of the defence in Hungary. and

25:10.424 --> 25:15.050
how shocking that was to not just deter Muslims

25:15.170 --> 25:18.314
or immigrants, migrants, refugees as other

25:18.354 --> 25:21.838
countries were with their welfare, with their

25:22.920 --> 25:24.942
lack of housing provision, with their lack

25:24.982 --> 25:28.870
of care, with all of this. to deter migrants

25:29.671 --> 25:32.171
actually putting up this physical, I mean,

25:32.731 --> 25:35.172
it was unconscionable, it was unimaginable.

25:36.052 --> 25:39.693
And it must still remain unimaginable because

25:39.853 --> 25:42.074
what we're having now in the last few weeks

25:42.594 --> 25:45.055
is not only Hungary, we're having Poland

25:45.095 --> 25:48.556
and we've seen those terrible scenes. And

25:48.616 --> 25:52.177
again, what is the narrative? The narrative

25:52.217 --> 25:55.538
of these refugees, very much like the Syrian

25:55.558 --> 25:59.457
refugees till the death of Elan, who was

25:59.537 --> 26:03.420
washed up on the shore on a beach. Before

26:03.500 --> 26:07.223
that happened, we saw that the narrative

26:07.664 --> 26:13.869
was about people being demonized and vilified

26:13.909 --> 26:16.331
and the language which was used. There was

26:16.391 --> 26:19.853
no language being used to identify these

26:19.953 --> 26:26.625
people as victims of Western foreign policy

26:26.945 --> 26:31.107
and Western invasion that not only killed

26:31.367 --> 26:36.449
many of their peoples, but also decimated

26:36.529 --> 26:40.751
the whole superstructure, the economy, education,

26:41.171 --> 26:44.673
housing, everything in the superstructure

26:44.693 --> 26:47.914
was totally decimated for these people, so

26:47.954 --> 26:52.692
there was nothing. And right-wing populism,

26:52.732 --> 26:57.340
of course, has been blazing to shore up the

26:57.561 --> 27:01.207
possibility of these things being normalized.

27:02.240 --> 27:05.402
And if we think of the Refugee Convention,

27:05.442 --> 27:08.203
we have a Refugee Convention in 1951 that

27:08.263 --> 27:13.485
says those who fear persecution in their

27:13.565 --> 27:17.307
countries, who are living in fear, and the

27:17.347 --> 27:19.528
Statue of Liberty, it's an irony, the base

27:19.548 --> 27:21.749
of the Statue of Liberty says something like,

27:22.229 --> 27:25.171
bring me your tired, huddled, poor, struggling

27:25.251 --> 27:27.872
to be free, et cetera, et cetera. Bring them

27:27.972 --> 27:33.526
tempest-tossed to me. And where has all that

27:34.866 --> 27:38.088
gone? Where are those principles, those human

27:38.168 --> 27:41.549
rights being honoured? It's an irony, of

27:41.629 --> 27:46.451
course, that right-wing popularism has very

27:46.511 --> 27:48.432
much characterised the White House under

27:48.492 --> 27:52.581
Trump. and we've seen executive orders there

27:53.121 --> 27:56.464
excluding Muslims from a number of countries,

27:56.864 --> 28:01.147
breaking up families. Biden of course has

28:01.207 --> 28:04.470
now renounced those executive orders, but

28:04.530 --> 28:08.452
right-wing popularism has had its impact

28:08.613 --> 28:12.295
and particularly on Muslims and actually

28:13.156 --> 28:18.245
condoned provided a climate by which Islamophobia

28:18.365 --> 28:20.565
or anti-Muslim prejudice, discrimination

28:20.605 --> 28:24.206
and hate can be normalized.

28:27.127 --> 28:30.667
You've touched upon the British woman Shamima

28:30.727 --> 28:34.828
Begum, as you clearly stated she, when she

28:34.868 --> 28:38.149
was 15 years old, left her English home to

28:38.209 --> 28:41.190
join the Islamic State of Iraq and Levant,

28:41.530 --> 28:46.932
ISIL, in Syria. Her attempted return to the

28:47.092 --> 28:51.554
UK in 2019 resulted in litigation which led

28:51.654 --> 28:55.396
to a Supreme Court decision and a public

28:55.456 --> 28:58.638
debate on whether extremists should be allowed

28:58.658 --> 29:05.222
to come back home. On 26 February 2021, the

29:05.282 --> 29:08.123
Supreme Court of the United Kingdom unanimously

29:08.303 --> 29:13.790
ruled against her return. Now, As you mentioned

29:13.810 --> 29:16.751
earlier, this is an extremely complex case.

29:18.492 --> 29:23.576
But Susan, in Lehmann's language, is Ms.

29:23.736 --> 29:27.818
Begum's situation an example of Orientalism

29:28.018 --> 29:31.340
at work that you speak of? And if yes, how

29:31.380 --> 29:34.202
would you present this young woman's case

29:34.322 --> 29:36.023
to the court of public opinion?

29:38.896 --> 29:41.437
Well, I think her lawyers have attempted

29:41.497 --> 29:47.580
to do that at various stages. And some of

29:47.660 --> 29:52.803
the truth of what happened to Shamima Begum

29:54.403 --> 29:59.346
in the early stages was disclosed in a House

29:59.386 --> 30:03.629
of Commons counterterrorism committee. some

30:03.689 --> 30:06.391
years ago and if anybody wants to have a

30:06.411 --> 30:09.814
look at that I suggest they do indeed because

30:10.234 --> 30:12.736
there you see some of the background and

30:13.797 --> 30:16.319
so here was a 15 year old school girl at

30:16.459 --> 30:21.924
Bethnal Green Academy and 15 years of age

30:21.964 --> 30:23.886
so perhaps we ought to just think about that

30:23.966 --> 30:28.733
if we could put aside the media who thirstily

30:28.753 --> 30:33.898
a couple of years ago reported in every newspaper

30:34.178 --> 30:37.921
and for several days on end that Shamima

30:38.021 --> 30:44.988
Begum had said to the Times journalist, severed

30:45.048 --> 30:48.791
heads did not faze me, or words to that effect.

30:49.431 --> 30:53.455
That became the strap line for Shamima Begum.

30:54.308 --> 30:59.490
and I suppose a trope from which she could

30:59.570 --> 31:03.691
not and may not now or in the future be able

31:03.751 --> 36:13.949
to escape. But the truth is here was a 15

31:07.312 --> 31:12.574
year old school girl at school who left her

31:12.634 --> 31:15.095
school with two of her friends and travelled

31:15.355 --> 31:20.265
to Syria via Turkey. her parents reported

31:20.325 --> 31:23.266
her missing immediately at the end of that

31:23.426 --> 36:13.949
particular school day in February in 2015

31:29.269 --> 31:32.911
and what should have happened and did not

31:33.331 --> 31:36.373
was that The Police who had been alerted

31:36.893 --> 31:39.394
should have then implemented their procedure

31:40.034 --> 31:44.437
and given some of the background of a concern

31:44.477 --> 31:48.066
that The Police had with some of the girls

31:48.246 --> 31:52.290
in that school should have reported it to

31:52.310 --> 31:57.512
and alerted the border police. they did not.

31:57.572 --> 32:01.995
In fact for two days as the Home Office Committee

32:02.015 --> 32:04.517
that I've just referred to discovered, they

32:04.537 --> 32:07.940
didn't do report it. The man or officer in

32:08.000 --> 32:12.603
charge of this action was in fact on holiday

32:13.084 --> 32:15.686
so it was not reported and so in those two

32:15.726 --> 32:18.128
days and we know the story we saw photographs

32:19.048 --> 32:23.952
from CCTV of three girls going through airport

32:24.032 --> 32:26.503
checks and we saw them at standing at a bus

32:26.523 --> 32:30.064
station in Syria. So this was the 15-year-old

32:30.124 --> 32:32.786
girl who went with two 16-year-old friends.

32:33.486 --> 32:37.548
As far as UK law is concerned, she is considered

32:37.568 --> 32:40.169
to be a child until she is 18 years of age.

32:40.690 --> 32:42.791
The local authority have a duty to protect

32:42.811 --> 32:46.893
her, The Police have a duty and so do the

32:46.933 --> 32:51.476
schools. So she goes to Syria and we know

32:51.536 --> 32:54.498
the rest of the story. The other story or

32:54.538 --> 32:56.380
the other element of the story for public

32:56.440 --> 32:59.282
opinion is at the very same time that she

32:59.342 --> 33:04.827
went in 2015, the UK was passing a law which

33:04.927 --> 33:11.092
was protecting those who were online groomed,

33:12.414 --> 33:16.216
sexually groomed online. So the UK government,

33:16.316 --> 33:18.918
parliament, were very concerned about grooming

33:18.958 --> 33:21.899
of young women online, so new legislation

33:21.939 --> 33:26.180
was put in place. But if we turn to Shamima

33:26.221 --> 33:29.581
Begum, there was no consideration that she

33:29.661 --> 33:31.502
had been groomed online, which indeed she

33:31.562 --> 33:34.322
had, or that she was a victim, or that we

33:34.362 --> 33:38.943
should protect her. So it was seen very differently.

33:40.463 --> 33:42.764
I mentioned the media demonization and it

33:42.864 --> 33:47.525
continued. So it continued and it continued

33:48.165 --> 33:51.829
in recent times with many people writing

33:51.909 --> 33:55.071
columns saying we don't want her back, she's

33:55.111 --> 33:59.375
a terrorist, she's a danger etc. Actually

33:59.515 --> 34:02.578
as per newspaper reports today, the 23rd

34:02.658 --> 34:06.020
November, she is wanting to return and as

34:06.060 --> 34:10.204
you've said the Supreme Court finally after

34:10.777 --> 34:16.762
a number of appeals has ruled that in fact

34:17.302 --> 34:22.106
the law and executive power is something

34:22.166 --> 34:24.308
that, or rather the role of the executive,

34:24.348 --> 34:28.731
is something that must be respected and so

34:28.891 --> 34:31.413
there's no possibility to interfere. That

34:31.453 --> 34:35.916
was what the Supreme Court concluded We have

34:35.996 --> 34:39.958
legislation in place which places the responsibility

34:40.498 --> 34:43.759
on the Secretary of State to determine whether

34:43.799 --> 34:47.680
those who have gone to join ISIS should be

34:47.780 --> 34:51.169
permitted to return. and they have made a

34:51.229 --> 34:53.570
decision and that is the decision that the

34:53.630 --> 34:58.252
Supreme Court is bound to follow. Shamima

34:58.272 --> 35:01.714
Begum today says apparently in the press

35:02.574 --> 35:05.996
articles that her only crime is being dumb

35:06.056 --> 35:09.578
enough to join ISIS, being dumb enough to

35:09.658 --> 35:14.561
join ISIS, but that won't get very much traction.

35:15.421 --> 35:17.982
So at the moment she's in the Al-Rouj refugee

35:18.042 --> 35:23.132
camp in Syria, It's a terrible place and

35:23.592 --> 35:25.492
I don't know whether there's any further

35:25.552 --> 35:28.933
stages in terms of litigation for Shamima

35:28.973 --> 35:33.194
Begum. But my view, as I've said, is here

35:33.214 --> 35:35.234
was a child, she should have been protected,

35:35.614 --> 35:39.955
she was groomed and we should be looking

35:39.995 --> 35:43.076
at that. And in terms of repatriation, there's

35:44.336 --> 35:47.197
certainly sufficient within legislation that

35:47.237 --> 35:50.569
would allow her to be policed, policed in

35:50.609 --> 35:53.291
the sense it would allow her to come back,

35:53.631 --> 35:56.494
the public to feel protected and various

35:56.534 --> 36:00.878
things could be put in place to ensure that

36:02.079 --> 36:04.261
the public would be protected if indeed they

36:04.301 --> 36:08.524
needed to be protected from her. So that

36:08.564 --> 36:12.808
would be in short what I would say in response

36:12.868 --> 36:13.949
to Shamima Begum.

36:17.898 --> 36:21.100
An obituary in the Associated Press dated

36:17.898 --> 36:26.084
19 October 2021 caught my eye the other day.

36:27.044 --> 36:29.046
It went something like this, and I quote,

36:31.473 --> 36:34.775
the trailblazing soldier and diplomat whose

36:34.835 --> 36:38.177
sterling reputation of service to Republican

36:38.717 --> 36:41.759
and Democratic presidents was stained by

36:41.839 --> 36:46.101
his faulty claims to justify the 2003 U.S.

36:46.561 --> 36:53.485
war in Iraq. You write disturbingly about

36:53.505 --> 36:57.247
traumatic events in American-run prisons

36:57.467 --> 37:01.504
in Iraq, Susan. most specifically Abu Ghraib.

37:04.028 --> 37:07.271
Why was writing about Abu Ghraib so important

37:07.311 --> 37:07.612
to you?

37:11.056 --> 37:16.002
Well you start off with mentioning the faulty

37:16.042 --> 37:18.445
claims and of course the Chilcot Inquiry

37:18.465 --> 37:26.391
and 2016 was of the view and that there was

37:26.451 --> 37:28.692
no evidence of weapons of mass destruction

37:28.713 --> 37:31.514
and there was no evidence that Saddam Hussein

37:31.594 --> 37:36.616
or Iraq was a threat. Abu Ghraib of course

37:37.617 --> 37:42.979
in Iraq was a pinnacle of what perhaps Philippe

37:43.019 --> 37:46.345
Sands would call lawlessness and his splendid

37:46.385 --> 37:50.186
book, what Geoffrey Robertson QC would call

37:50.686 --> 37:56.067
lawlessness. And in Abu Ghraib, as we know,

37:56.107 --> 37:58.908
there's no one that is not aware of Abu Ghraib.

37:59.688 --> 38:02.589
The photographs on the web for all to see

38:03.029 --> 38:06.390
in perpetuity, the torture, the humiliation,

38:07.070 --> 38:09.711
the sexual sadism that took torture to a

38:09.771 --> 38:13.031
particular perverse place. Although I have

38:13.071 --> 38:15.452
to say, if anybody's read Jonathan Glover,

38:16.742 --> 38:19.784
humanity, a moral history of the 20th century.

38:20.364 --> 38:23.306
He talks about festivals of cruelty and this

38:23.386 --> 38:27.188
certainly was a festival of sexual sadism

38:27.928 --> 38:31.810
and what men were forced to perform sexual

38:31.890 --> 38:35.152
acts upon one another and it was photographed.

38:36.493 --> 38:41.796
And if you look at those who commented on

38:41.856 --> 38:45.938
it, the late wonderful Susan Sontag actually

38:46.445 --> 38:49.788
talked about the camera as a weapon, and

38:49.988 --> 38:55.893
indeed the atrocities at Abergrave live on

38:56.013 --> 38:58.675
forever. There seems to be no property in

38:59.616 --> 39:02.138
the image, there seems to be no property

39:02.298 --> 39:06.621
either in the dead, and one cannot fail to

39:06.661 --> 39:11.292
be eternally sickened by what was happening

39:11.832 --> 39:14.633
in Abu Ghraib and wonder as well when one

39:14.673 --> 39:18.234
looks at the military tribunals that tried

39:19.114 --> 39:24.856
Grainer and England and others at the derisory

39:24.916 --> 39:32.457
sentences that were passed. So Abu Ghraib

39:33.418 --> 39:35.758
is something that actually lives on because

39:35.798 --> 39:38.519
we've seen it in many of our minds

39:43.061 --> 39:46.604
In chapter 6 of your book, Susan, entitled

39:47.124 --> 39:51.568
Chronicles of Torture, you quote Martha Nussbaum,

39:52.089 --> 39:55.632
an American philosopher, thus, and I quote

39:55.672 --> 39:59.695
here, I believe that this emphasis on patriotic

39:59.875 --> 40:04.305
pride is both morally dangerous and Ultimately,

40:04.746 --> 40:08.108
subversive of those worthy goals of patriotism

40:08.828 --> 40:12.590
set out to serve, for example, the goal of

40:12.670 --> 40:16.813
national unity in devotion to worthy moral

40:17.353 --> 40:20.615
ideals of justice and equality." End of quotation.

40:23.097 --> 40:25.958
Please talk to us about the American Patriot

40:26.198 --> 40:33.493
Acts of 2001, 2006, and 2011. We have special

40:33.533 --> 40:36.734
reference to their impact on Muslims as a

40:36.794 --> 40:37.554
corporal body.

40:39.935 --> 40:42.535
What a wonderful word, the Patriot Acts.

40:42.595 --> 40:44.436
Just, you know, hold on to that for a moment.

40:44.456 --> 40:46.816
It's wonderful, isn't it? The Patriot Acts.

40:48.097 --> 40:50.837
Let's say nobody knows what these acts are.

40:51.177 --> 40:54.078
And we could ask a group of schoolchildren

40:54.138 --> 40:56.579
or we could ask a group of university students.

40:56.639 --> 41:00.500
Now, what do you think the Patriot Acts would

41:00.540 --> 41:06.118
be about? they would talk about respect.

41:06.218 --> 41:10.480
They talk about the positive notion of patriotism,

41:11.060 --> 41:16.203
respect, love of one's community, loyalty,

41:16.823 --> 41:20.545
love of one's country. And in some ways,

41:20.966 --> 41:24.027
this very emotionalism around patriotism

41:24.608 --> 41:28.550
became fused in a way that justified a legal

41:28.730 --> 41:31.671
architecture that actually stripped away

41:31.771 --> 41:36.443
all those things. and the Patriot Act were

41:37.644 --> 41:40.945
erected to allow the flouting of legal rules.

41:42.406 --> 41:45.507
Detention without trial was made possible.

41:46.247 --> 41:48.488
Forcible renditions bringing people from

41:48.728 --> 41:52.130
other countries who'd been tortured to Guantanamo

41:52.890 --> 41:59.037
Bay. was permitted. A war on Muslims, actually

41:59.057 --> 42:02.300
a war on Muslims was declared and the whole

42:02.400 --> 42:06.684
notion of military tribunals rather than

42:07.164 --> 42:09.506
criminal law tribunals, because if you were

42:09.546 --> 42:13.890
going to try those who were suspected of

42:13.950 --> 42:17.173
terrorist activity, that should correctly

42:17.233 --> 42:20.696
be within the domain of criminal law, international

42:21.359 --> 42:24.861
criminal law. But no, these Patriot Acts

42:25.342 --> 42:28.344
permitted the setting up of military tribunals

42:28.384 --> 42:30.665
and of course, Guantanamo Bay. And here we

42:30.745 --> 42:35.228
should say that in January of 2022, it will

42:35.268 --> 42:38.510
be 20 years that Guantanamo Bay has opened.

42:38.610 --> 43:13.235
We must shut it down. There are still 39

42:42.813 --> 42:46.015
people in there. And in terms of Guantanamo

42:46.035 --> 42:51.580
Bay, people were kept and are kept and have

42:51.640 --> 42:54.422
been kept there, detention without trial

42:54.903 --> 42:57.845
and of course the whole of the the torture

42:57.865 --> 43:01.967
that we we know about. So the Patriot Acts

43:03.048 --> 43:06.010
appealed to some emotional notion of loyalty

43:06.550 --> 43:10.493
which allowed and facilitated this fusion

43:10.533 --> 43:13.235
of patriotism with Islamophobia

43:18.593 --> 43:21.374
This leads on to the next question, wonderfully.

43:22.274 --> 43:27.015
Lord Stein's lecture in 2003, entitled Guantanamo

43:27.075 --> 43:31.576
Bay, The Legal Black Hole, said thus, and

43:31.676 --> 43:36.177
I quote, the most powerful democracy is detaining

43:36.277 --> 43:38.537
hundreds of suspected foot soldiers of the

43:38.597 --> 43:42.518
Taliban in a legal black hole at the United

43:42.578 --> 43:47.266
States Naval Base at Guantanamo Bay. where

43:47.847 --> 43:51.149
they await trial on capital charges by military

43:51.189 --> 43:55.113
tribunals. Judicial branches of government,

43:55.853 --> 43:58.275
although charged with the duty of standing

43:58.335 --> 44:01.498
between the government and individuals, are

44:01.598 --> 44:04.440
often too deferential to the executive in

44:04.540 --> 44:08.703
time of peace. How would the same judges

44:08.964 --> 44:12.346
act in time of crisis? End of quotation.

44:13.848 --> 44:17.908
Now, It is a well-known fact that a barking

44:17.988 --> 44:20.731
dog is often more useful than a sleeping

44:21.351 --> 44:26.495
lion. Susan, what is the role of a judge,

44:27.176 --> 44:30.439
both in time of peace and in time of war,

44:31.019 --> 44:32.781
with special reference to torture?

44:35.523 --> 44:37.845
Well, I think, you know, I would suggest

44:37.905 --> 44:40.267
that everybody looks at Tom Bingham, the

44:40.307 --> 44:44.353
rule of law. And, of course, the role of

44:44.373 --> 44:47.055
the judge is to, we know, and these are here

44:47.115 --> 44:50.618
the hallowed principles, to apply the law,

44:50.798 --> 44:55.181
to be impartial, to uphold human rights maxims,

44:55.941 --> 45:02.426
to be just, etc. And, I think, to halt executive

45:02.486 --> 45:04.967
power because that's what we've seen. It

45:06.708 --> 45:09.630
hasn't been so much the corrosion of the

45:09.690 --> 45:13.113
judiciary although there is a question there,

45:13.133 --> 45:16.656
or the corrosion of lawyers, and there's

45:16.676 --> 45:19.378
a question there, or the corrosion of doctors,

45:19.398 --> 45:21.199
and there's a question there with respect

45:21.780 --> 45:25.042
in each way to Guantanamo Bay, but it has

45:25.082 --> 45:28.384
been the corrosion of executive power. And

45:28.424 --> 45:31.767
of course, some judges in the US did challenge

45:31.807 --> 45:37.666
the executive. Some did not. And Judges,

45:38.006 --> 45:42.368
of course, were upholding, in some cases,

45:43.808 --> 45:47.210
the rule of law, the international human

45:47.270 --> 45:53.432
rights conventions, the fought after human

45:53.632 --> 45:55.833
rights for centuries, that there should be

45:55.893 --> 46:01.475
no detention without trial. But the US executive

46:02.144 --> 46:05.286
introduced a new parallel system, if you

46:05.346 --> 46:10.788
like, of its own legal language. The combatant,

46:11.489 --> 46:17.071
what is an unlawful combatant, and introducing

46:17.472 --> 46:23.334
a whole new scene and scenario of what they

46:23.435 --> 46:26.996
thought was possible. What happened in Guantanamo,

46:27.036 --> 46:31.318
as we know, was a whole array of torture,

46:31.759 --> 46:35.441
detention, dehumanization, humiliation, a

46:35.481 --> 46:39.283
distortion of the word torture, the words

46:39.363 --> 46:42.445
that were used was its interrogation, the

46:42.726 --> 46:45.768
ideologies that were promulgated were that

46:45.868 --> 46:49.190
it's necessary, the arguments put forward

46:49.370 --> 46:53.634
by some US politicians and the US government

46:53.874 --> 46:56.416
was that it's necessary to torture, we get

46:56.476 --> 46:59.538
information. Of course it's true that after

46:59.578 --> 47:02.440
the senate papers were released and of course

47:02.480 --> 47:04.601
only some of the pages of the senate papers,

47:05.682 --> 47:09.464
it was seen that in fact torture has absolutely

47:10.025 --> 47:16.171
no relationship between ensuring that truth

47:16.211 --> 47:19.034
will be spoken by the subject so tortured.

47:19.695 --> 47:21.737
That's well known, even though Trump, before

47:21.777 --> 47:25.700
he left office, again bleated the mantra

47:25.740 --> 47:29.804
that torture will get us important information.

47:31.065 --> 47:33.227
And so there were a number, of course, American

47:33.267 --> 47:35.729
cases where judges did apply the law, they

47:35.789 --> 47:38.492
did stand up to the executive. There was

47:38.512 --> 47:42.405
the case of Hamdi, the case of Hamdan, case

47:42.445 --> 47:45.106
of Boumediene. There were a number of cases

47:45.146 --> 47:48.027
from 2004 onwards, but a little word about

47:48.047 --> 47:51.508
the UK as well. The UK in Belmarsh prison

47:52.448 --> 47:55.629
after 2001, detained without trial, well

47:55.649 --> 47:58.330
it didn't torture, unless you think detention

47:58.370 --> 48:00.430
without trial is torture and that's another

48:00.470 --> 48:02.371
point when we come to think about Julian

48:02.411 --> 48:05.872
Assange's situation for speaking truth, for

48:05.912 --> 48:08.936
speaking the counter-narrative. for exposing

48:08.976 --> 48:11.939
the lies on what had happened in the war

48:12.019 --> 48:14.321
on terror and the lies about other countries,

48:15.322 --> 48:17.204
who is still in Belmarsh at this present

48:17.244 --> 48:20.687
time, and we wait for the judgment of the

48:20.747 --> 48:23.109
court on whether he should be extradited

48:23.289 --> 48:25.548
to the United Kingdom. in the United States.

48:26.008 --> 48:30.510
But back to the Belmarsh cases in 2004, from

44:35.523 --> 48:33.912
2001 to 2004, there were a number of detainees

48:33.972 --> 48:35.793
in Belmarsh. We didn't call them unlawful

48:35.873 --> 48:38.354
combatants. They were detained unlawfully

48:38.694 --> 48:42.577
without trial, again, under a particular

48:42.717 --> 48:46.619
UK executive order that had been introduced

48:46.779 --> 48:49.240
in earlier legislation. But on December the

48:49.260 --> 48:52.921
17th, 2004, Thankfully, the House of Lords,

48:52.981 --> 48:56.804
including Lord Scott, Lord Steyn, a number

48:56.824 --> 49:01.067
of other lordships, declared that their detention

49:01.587 --> 49:04.389
was contrary to Article 5 of the European

49:04.429 --> 49:06.510
Convention, contrary to Article 6, and they

49:06.550 --> 49:08.492
were released. Unfortunately, that wasn't

49:08.512 --> 49:10.313
the end of the story because the government

49:10.353 --> 49:11.954
came back and introduced another piece of

49:12.014 --> 49:14.176
legislation which meant, although they were

49:14.236 --> 49:17.134
not returned to prison, they were kept under,

49:17.274 --> 49:19.436
if you like, house arrest for so many hours

49:19.516 --> 49:22.817
per day, under what was then called control

49:22.897 --> 49:25.879
orders. But that's another huge story. But

49:25.999 --> 49:30.922
importantly, the UK were not then totally

49:30.962 --> 49:35.945
immune from breaching some of the international

49:38.006 --> 49:40.047
human rights maxims of which I've spoken.

49:43.568 --> 49:46.649
The purpose of the rule of law in the United

49:46.689 --> 49:50.850
States of America, you write that the symbol

49:50.970 --> 49:54.311
of Lady Justice Justicia is now, and I quote,

49:54.451 --> 49:58.792
an image of a man hooded, covered in a shroud,

49:58.912 --> 50:02.313
standing on a box with electrical cords attached

50:02.333 --> 50:07.214
to his fingers, a torture to which Ali Shalal

50:07.614 --> 50:10.675
al-Qa'isi and others were subjected to, end

50:10.715 --> 50:14.525
of quotation. Please tell us why this is

50:14.665 --> 50:14.905
so.

50:14.925 --> 50:22.271
I was particularly impressed by the writings

50:22.331 --> 50:27.036
of the late Susan Sontag, who I have referred

50:27.076 --> 50:29.077
to a little bit earlier in our discussion.

50:30.238 --> 50:35.603
And Susan Sontag, when she spoke of the photographs,

50:35.663 --> 50:37.765
and this particular photograph, said the

50:37.825 --> 50:42.690
photographs are us. and she was vilified

50:42.830 --> 50:46.493
for saying so and anybody who spoke to a

50:46.553 --> 50:50.977
counter-narrative was vilified and Chomsky,

50:50.997 --> 50:56.463
Noam Chomsky and his writings was also referred

50:56.523 --> 51:01.438
to as an apologist for terrorism. So Susan

51:01.458 --> 51:05.639
Sontag, of course, was verified and paid

51:05.659 --> 51:10.880
an enormous price in terms of being criticized

51:11.320 --> 51:14.520
in this way for actually saying the photographs

51:14.921 --> 51:19.361
are us. But if you look at those photographs

51:19.421 --> 51:24.002
and you think of the symbols that the US

51:25.082 --> 51:28.703
so much promulgates and projects, the land

51:28.723 --> 51:33.612
of the free, I mentioned the Statue of Liberty,

51:33.692 --> 51:36.593
bring me your tired and huddled masses, struggling

51:36.673 --> 51:38.815
to be free, bring them tempest tossed to

51:38.875 --> 51:43.237
me. And yet the reality is very much those

51:43.937 --> 51:47.219
indelible photographs that live on forever.

51:47.239 --> 51:52.061
And in terms of the photographs, I just want

51:52.081 --> 51:58.124
to refer the audience to the work of Chris

51:58.345 --> 52:02.631
Bartlett, who, since the camera was such

52:02.691 --> 52:07.612
a predatory weapon in Abu Ghraib, Chris Bartlett,

52:07.852 --> 52:13.293
the photographer, went back to Iraq in about

50:14.925 --> 52:19.514
2016 and he went and he met with some of

52:19.614 --> 52:22.415
those men that were imprisoned in Abu Ghraib

52:23.595 --> 52:26.956
and who had been the victims of this torture,

52:27.136 --> 52:30.511
kind of torture. and he took an amazing set

52:30.551 --> 52:36.176
of the most beautiful photographs where the

52:36.196 --> 52:39.438
men that were photographed could be restored

52:39.819 --> 52:42.401
through the camera, no longer a predator,

52:42.921 --> 52:48.626
be restored to their pride and their self-worth

52:48.686 --> 52:51.188
and their identity and their dignity, that

52:51.228 --> 52:53.931
could all be restored to them. And so I ask

52:57.872 --> 53:00.074
those who were interested to have a look

53:00.114 --> 53:02.417
at Chris Barton's photographs that are on

53:02.457 --> 53:06.921
the World Wide Web as well, but it doesn't

53:06.961 --> 53:11.907
remove the damage and the image of US justice

53:12.147 --> 53:13.608
and US rule of law.

53:16.351 --> 53:19.735
You write eloquently that war on terror has

53:19.875 --> 53:24.424
harmed Muslim men and I quote you here, Muslim

53:24.444 --> 53:27.465
detainees, their families, friends, and communities.

53:28.205 --> 53:31.126
The psychological impact on the Muslim prisoners

53:31.786 --> 53:34.827
is powerfully summed up by the Al Jazeera

53:34.867 --> 53:39.628
journalist, Saleh Al-Jaili, who said, it

53:39.808 --> 53:42.129
never really left me, end of quotations.

53:43.850 --> 53:47.351
Susan, based on your research and personal

53:47.391 --> 53:50.661
experience, What do you think is the long-term

53:50.821 --> 53:55.462
effect of war on terror on the mental health

53:55.602 --> 53:57.643
of Muslims, generally speaking?

53:57.663 --> 54:01.164
Well, let me just say something about the

54:01.224 --> 54:03.325
journalists, because, you know, the effect

54:03.405 --> 54:05.145
on the journalists, it's important for people

54:05.185 --> 54:07.586
to know that in Guantanamo Bay, I mean, he

54:07.626 --> 54:10.767
was in Guantanamo Bay, a journalist for Al

54:10.787 --> 54:13.508
Jazeera, and it's important to know that

54:13.748 --> 54:18.421
those in Guantanamo Bay very, very few were

54:18.481 --> 54:21.562
ever convicted of any crime whatsoever. They

54:21.602 --> 54:24.462
were shepherds, they were bakers, they were

54:24.502 --> 54:28.964
farmers, they were journalists, they were

54:29.184 --> 54:35.646
humanitarian aid workers. And so the effect

54:36.466 --> 54:39.827
on all of these people, on all of these communities,

54:42.368 --> 54:44.889
of course, individually, post-traumatic stress

54:44.929 --> 54:48.017
disorder, The effects, within the first months

54:48.317 --> 54:52.378
of Guantanamo Bay, as I write, many of the

54:52.558 --> 54:56.299
inmates committed suicide. The effects, actually,

54:56.959 --> 55:01.840
some of the perpetrators who did the waterboarding,

55:02.220 --> 55:05.780
who were responsible for the body-to-body,

55:05.920 --> 55:08.801
flesh-to-flesh torture that was inflicted,

55:09.381 --> 55:11.081
they were not pressing a button. They were

55:11.101 --> 55:14.782
not making the order to do it. They were

55:14.842 --> 55:18.009
actually, doing that, as I say, face-to-face,

55:18.089 --> 55:20.071
flesh-to-flesh, they also, some of them,

55:20.111 --> 55:22.092
committed suicide. And I reflected at that

55:22.173 --> 55:24.494
point on what Franz Fanon had said about

55:24.635 --> 55:31.580
Algeria, where he, in the 50s and 60s, was

55:31.600 --> 55:37.485
a psychiatrist. And he went to work in Algeria

55:37.906 --> 55:41.429
and he talked about the impact also on those

55:41.449 --> 55:48.294
who perpetrated the atrocities on Algerians.

55:48.434 --> 55:54.276
So the effects are wide, are very wide. Of

55:54.356 --> 55:57.657
course, for the individual Muslims, Arabs,

55:58.677 --> 56:00.758
their families were broken, their countries

56:00.798 --> 56:04.339
are broken, there's no infrastructure. And

56:04.459 --> 56:07.620
so there are wider effects on the whole of

56:07.700 --> 56:11.161
the community. And as I've said, we now see

56:11.261 --> 56:15.322
that in the humanitarian crisis which is

56:15.623 --> 56:18.663
currently on the borders of Poland as we

56:19.063 --> 56:21.764
speak today. Those are the effects and there

56:21.784 --> 56:23.944
will be long-term effects that will go on

56:25.284 --> 56:26.505
throughout the decades.

56:30.285 --> 56:34.266
You write forcefully about the seeming hypocrisy

56:34.506 --> 56:37.507
of the Western powers avowed and principled

56:37.747 --> 56:42.248
aim in prosecuting various wars in the Middle

56:42.408 --> 56:46.090
East. which is to save women, as you mentioned

56:46.110 --> 56:52.273
earlier, from barbaric Muslim men. Are you

56:52.393 --> 56:56.756
saying, Susan, that the West is happy to

56:56.896 --> 57:00.678
ignore systemic and structural abuse of women

57:01.639 --> 57:04.841
and their rights if it is an ally of theirs,

57:05.441 --> 57:09.474
such as Saudi Arabia, the UAE, but call out

57:09.514 --> 57:12.755
the same practices in relation to perceived

57:12.955 --> 57:16.595
enemies or non-allies? And if the answer

57:16.615 --> 57:19.336
is yes, could you kindly explain?

57:21.936 --> 57:27.337
Well, there's absolutely no doubt that Islamic

57:27.457 --> 57:32.578
terrorism is a terrible scourge that we are

57:32.698 --> 57:36.379
in the grip of, either perpetrated from those

57:36.479 --> 57:40.679
outside the UK or even perpetrated from those

57:41.080 --> 57:46.863
within the UK. And nobody would ever deny

57:46.883 --> 57:50.565
the terrible atrocity of 9-11 and various

57:50.765 --> 57:53.647
other terrorist acts that have happened throughout

57:53.707 --> 57:58.630
the world in the UK and in Europe. And even

57:58.710 --> 58:02.972
last Sunday, Sunday before Remembrance Sunday,

58:03.492 --> 58:10.010
where we suspect, still alleged, we don't

58:10.050 --> 58:11.831
have sufficient information, but that there

58:11.871 --> 58:17.693
was a suicide bombing that killed actually

58:17.733 --> 58:20.575
the person who'd made the bomb and the taxi

58:20.595 --> 58:24.196
driver who was in the taxi with the man escaped

58:25.337 --> 58:29.759
fortunately without too much harm. So we

58:29.799 --> 58:35.407
don't doubt that. But what the concern is

58:35.647 --> 58:40.171
here is that the West is very keen, and I'll

58:40.211 --> 58:43.413
just give one example, and I'm thinking of

58:43.493 --> 58:47.897
Saudi Arabia. When we come to look at 9-11,

58:48.037 --> 58:53.322
who were the people who actually committed

58:53.802 --> 58:57.185
that terrible, terrible atrocity? Were they

58:57.765 --> 59:01.929
Iraqis? Were they Afghanis? Were they Syrians?

59:03.674 --> 59:07.641
No, they were not. They were Saudis and they

59:07.661 --> 59:12.309
were Yemenis. So, one has to ask the question,

59:12.569 --> 59:15.494
that's the question. Also, the question is,

59:16.335 --> 59:19.349
why is it that the United Kingdom, and I'll

59:19.689 --> 59:22.651
just stay with the United Kingdom for this

59:22.732 --> 59:29.137
moment, has been, if you like, happy to continue

59:29.157 --> 59:32.821
to engage with Saudi Arabia and not be critical

59:32.841 --> 59:34.943
of the Saudi regime, whereas it's critical

59:34.983 --> 59:37.525
of Iran, it's critical of other regimes,

59:37.585 --> 59:40.047
but not Saudi Arabia, and one has to look

59:40.067 --> 59:43.447
at the whole interest around oil. And it's

59:43.487 --> 59:46.109
not only oil, but we look at the supplying

59:46.169 --> 59:50.894
of arms, the arms that the British government

59:51.474 --> 59:55.338
has authorized licenses to the sale of arms

59:55.658 --> 59:58.841
to Saudi Arabia. And we know that these arms

59:59.082 --> 01:00:04.182
have been killing Yemeni civilians. and of

01:00:04.263 --> 01:00:07.084
course there's a whole discussion we could

01:00:07.124 --> 01:00:13.446
be having about Maqtoum and horses and all

01:00:13.486 --> 01:00:17.708
the rest of it in terms of the way in which

01:00:19.388 --> 01:00:24.290
in the UK Saudi royalty is entertained and

01:00:24.350 --> 01:00:27.232
so keeping the diplomatic ties are very important

01:00:27.252 --> 01:00:29.532
to us. What is the price of keeping those

01:00:29.613 --> 01:00:33.966
diplomatic ties? And again, of course, the

01:00:34.206 --> 01:00:39.370
killing of Khashoggi, that dreadful murderous

01:00:39.430 --> 01:00:42.733
killing of the journalist who was critical

01:00:43.153 --> 01:00:48.077
of the Saudi regime, Jamal Khashoggi. I wish

01:00:48.137 --> 01:00:49.798
people could pronounce it correctly. That

01:00:49.838 --> 01:00:54.562
is the correct pronunciation of Jamal Khashoggi,

01:00:55.143 --> 01:01:00.126
who was murdered so brutally. What is said

01:01:00.146 --> 01:01:06.517
of that? So we choose our friends in brackets,

01:01:07.137 --> 01:01:09.478
we choose our enemies, and we're very much,

01:01:09.678 --> 01:01:12.680
in brackets, we're very much informed by

01:01:13.080 --> 01:01:16.962
looking after ourselves and what they can

01:01:17.002 --> 01:01:21.183
do for us. So oil and the petrodollar and

01:01:21.303 --> 01:01:24.785
the sale of arms, which really, I say this

01:01:24.825 --> 01:01:26.946
with sarcasm, you can't see my face here,

01:01:26.966 --> 01:01:31.142
I don't think, but is supporting so much

01:01:31.203 --> 01:01:34.123
British industry? Is this what British workers

01:01:34.163 --> 01:01:37.965
want? Is this the industries that they want

01:01:37.985 --> 01:01:38.525
to support?

01:01:42.066 --> 01:01:45.347
We turn our focus now on the United Kingdom

01:01:45.367 --> 01:01:49.788
of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. On

01:01:50.068 --> 01:01:53.869
15th October, Sir David Amess was killed

01:01:53.969 --> 01:01:57.517
by an alleged terrorist during a constituency

01:01:57.557 --> 01:02:00.679
meeting, doing something he absolutely loved,

01:02:01.339 --> 01:02:06.002
making contact with his constituencies. Physically

01:02:06.082 --> 01:02:09.865
present and attentive with an intimacy that

01:02:09.985 --> 01:02:12.366
is the hallmark of a British constituency

01:02:12.527 --> 01:02:17.429
MP. Clearly, getting in touch, connecting

01:02:17.589 --> 01:02:20.010
democratic institutions and the people who

01:02:20.251 --> 01:02:23.012
are represented by members of parliament

01:02:23.313 --> 01:02:26.314
is a precious jewel in British democracy.

01:02:28.316 --> 01:02:32.238
Susan, considering this death and several

01:02:32.358 --> 01:02:36.541
other terrorist attacks in the UK, would

01:02:36.581 --> 01:02:39.143
you say that the British policy of prevent

01:02:39.983 --> 01:02:40.884
is a waste of time?

01:02:43.382 --> 01:02:45.803
Well, first of all, of course, today is the

01:02:45.843 --> 01:02:51.106
memorial service of Sir David Amess, and

01:02:51.366 --> 01:02:54.528
it is an absolute tragedy that those who

01:02:54.568 --> 01:02:58.450
want to reach out to their communities, politicians

01:02:59.370 --> 01:03:02.052
especially, are involved in reaching out

01:03:02.092 --> 01:03:09.323
in this way, face this kind of risk of attack

01:03:10.024 --> 01:03:17.047
from anybody, not only suspect Islamic terrorists

01:03:17.147 --> 01:03:20.308
but far right and we've seen the far right

01:03:20.908 --> 01:03:28.211
in the tragic killing of Joe Cox MP. So that's

01:03:28.271 --> 01:03:33.053
the first thing but prevent doesn't prevent

01:03:33.293 --> 01:03:35.934
and prevent has demonstrated that it's a

01:03:36.014 --> 01:03:41.386
huge problem in terms of the kind of stereotypes

01:03:41.466 --> 01:03:45.951
that it is based on, in terms of the detection

01:03:46.051 --> 01:03:48.454
or the indicators of suspicion. What are

01:03:48.474 --> 01:03:49.916
the indicators? I mean, that's the whole

01:03:49.996 --> 01:03:53.700
point. Can we identify who is likely to be

01:03:53.780 --> 01:03:57.845
a terrorist threat? Scenarios have been built

01:03:57.965 --> 01:04:01.026
up around who is likely to be radicalised.

01:04:01.766 --> 01:04:04.987
One of the problems, and I will just mention

01:04:05.447 --> 01:04:12.349
only this one, is that until 2019, the definition

01:04:12.849 --> 01:04:16.930
of radicalisation, which the PREVENT programme

01:04:17.071 --> 01:04:22.332
operated with, included a notion of radicalisation

01:04:23.052 --> 01:04:29.308
which involved saw extremism as active opposition

01:04:30.509 --> 01:04:34.512
to fundamental British values. Now what does

01:04:34.592 --> 01:04:37.374
active opposition mean to fundamental British

01:04:37.414 --> 01:04:41.177
values? It might be criticism of British

01:04:41.498 --> 01:04:44.980
foreign policy in Afghanistan. It might be

01:04:45.421 --> 01:04:51.826
support for Palestinians. It might be critical

01:04:52.106 --> 01:04:55.993
of particular governments. In the case of

01:04:56.173 --> 01:05:00.175
Butt, B-U-T-T, just for clarity's sake here,

01:05:00.195 --> 01:05:02.997
if anybody wants to look at this, the court

01:05:03.117 --> 01:05:09.480
ruled that that was unlawful and it would

01:05:09.620 --> 01:05:11.982
limit freedom of speech, you see, and that's

01:05:12.022 --> 01:05:15.063
what it was doing, limiting active opposition

01:05:15.684 --> 01:05:18.649
to fundamental British values, some British

01:05:18.689 --> 01:05:21.329
values. And of course, there's lots of organizations

01:05:21.389 --> 01:05:24.270
that would be opposing. I mean, the campaign

01:05:24.330 --> 01:05:28.231
against arms trade is opposing Britain's

01:05:28.331 --> 01:05:31.332
sale of arms to Saudi Arabia, stop the war

01:05:31.412 --> 01:05:35.513
coalition, opposed the wars on Afghanistan,

01:05:35.833 --> 01:05:39.674
on Iraq, and opposed any attempt later to

01:05:40.514 --> 01:05:43.315
thinking about invading Iran, and so on.

01:05:44.386 --> 01:05:47.948
So this was a problem. And Prevent, of course,

01:05:48.328 --> 01:05:50.449
this is one of its problems, that it draws

01:05:50.529 --> 01:05:52.870
in so many people into that web. And we've

01:05:52.910 --> 01:05:56.171
heard so many stories of children being investigated

01:05:56.311 --> 01:05:58.892
because of radicalization. A child who had

01:05:58.972 --> 01:06:02.334
written, I live in a terrorist house. Poor

01:06:02.394 --> 01:06:04.715
child, couldn't spell. And the child meant,

01:06:05.275 --> 01:06:10.157
I live in a terrorist house. And another

01:06:10.217 --> 01:06:13.976
child from a school near Luton collecting

01:06:14.036 --> 01:06:17.378
money for the children in Palestine again

01:06:17.778 --> 01:06:21.740
came under suspicion of radicalization and

01:06:21.800 --> 01:06:24.521
we know that in fact some families, some

01:06:24.581 --> 01:06:27.722
children have been removed from parents who

01:06:28.983 --> 01:06:31.564
are particularly critical of British foreign

01:06:31.604 --> 01:06:34.525
policy and those matters I've suggested.

01:06:35.025 --> 01:06:43.776
So prevent cannot necessarily prevent these

01:06:44.416 --> 01:06:46.979
atrocities. However, having said that, I'm

01:06:47.059 --> 01:06:49.642
sure that there are cases where of course

01:06:50.703 --> 01:06:54.748
various acts of terrorism have been successfully

01:06:54.788 --> 01:06:57.691
intercepted, but the net has been thrown

01:06:58.192 --> 01:07:02.116
far too widely based on particular assumptions

01:07:02.597 --> 01:07:03.618
and stereotypes.

01:07:06.953 --> 01:07:09.254
There are growing concerns following the

01:07:09.454 --> 01:07:12.695
recent appointment of Dominic Raab as the

01:07:12.755 --> 01:07:16.337
new Justice Secretary that one of the things

01:07:16.377 --> 01:07:19.338
that Mr Raab will do as Justice Secretary

01:07:19.558 --> 01:07:22.539
is to oversee the repeal of the Human Rights

01:07:22.820 --> 01:07:28.662
Act. If this were ever to come to pass, what

01:07:28.682 --> 01:07:32.063
do you think this action will mean to British

01:07:32.143 --> 01:07:33.644
Muslims specifically?

01:07:35.809 --> 01:07:37.750
Well, you know, there's nothing new about

01:07:38.411 --> 01:07:43.594
Dominic Raab and the attempts to dismantle,

01:07:43.734 --> 01:07:46.636
curtail or even get rid of the Human Rights

01:07:46.756 --> 01:07:50.218
Act, which means that the Human Rights Act

01:07:50.498 --> 01:07:54.241
would mean that we would not need or be required

01:07:54.401 --> 01:07:57.323
to follow the European Convention on Human

01:07:57.363 --> 01:07:59.364
Rights. Actually, leaving Europe doesn't

01:07:59.424 --> 01:08:01.745
mean that we're not still bound by the European

01:08:01.806 --> 01:08:03.627
Convention of Human Rights, which, of course,

01:08:03.647 --> 01:08:06.215
is about the right to life, the right to

01:08:06.255 --> 01:08:09.016
be free from torture, the right to liberty,

01:08:09.056 --> 01:08:11.316
the right to a fair trial, the right to freedom

01:08:11.356 --> 01:08:16.498
of speech, and so on. But, you know, we can

01:08:16.518 --> 01:08:19.779
look at Theresa May, we can look at Boris

01:08:20.560 --> 01:08:22.900
Johnson, I mean, particularly Boris very

01:08:22.940 --> 01:08:25.121
recently, he, in the Queen's speech, I think,

01:08:25.161 --> 01:08:27.202
was it last year, you know, he promised he

01:08:27.242 --> 01:08:29.062
was going to get rid of the Human Rights

01:08:29.202 --> 01:08:33.264
Act, but, you know, there are some very fundamental

01:08:34.375 --> 01:08:36.177
matters in there that would have an impact

01:08:36.257 --> 01:08:39.459
not just on, of course, Muslim communities,

01:08:39.859 --> 01:08:45.203
on all of our freedoms if we were to dilute

01:08:45.243 --> 01:08:48.366
that in any way. And of course, I think some

01:08:48.406 --> 01:08:52.469
of their concern comes about in terms of

01:08:52.509 --> 01:08:54.990
the way in which the European Convention

01:08:55.010 --> 01:08:57.813
on Human Rights and the articles I've mentioned

01:08:57.833 --> 01:08:59.814
in the Convention and the Human Rights Act,

01:08:59.874 --> 01:09:02.616
which then brings rights home into our law,

01:09:04.788 --> 01:09:09.031
can still sort of challenge, is able to challenge

01:09:09.091 --> 01:09:13.614
some of the counter-terrorist policies, provisions

01:09:13.994 --> 01:09:17.036
and legislation that we have. I've mentioned

01:09:17.076 --> 01:09:19.297
that the latest tranche of legislation was

01:09:19.737 --> 01:09:23.480
the right to exclude citizens to come back

01:09:23.560 --> 01:09:25.861
into the United Kingdom, but there are so

01:09:25.881 --> 01:09:28.603
many other aspects of the legislation that

01:09:28.623 --> 01:09:31.925
could be challenged. It's about challenging

01:09:31.985 --> 01:09:34.436
executive power and of course legislation

01:09:34.456 --> 01:09:36.417
has given so much power to the executive

01:09:36.877 --> 01:09:39.418
also in terms of I mentioned control orders

01:09:39.538 --> 01:09:41.539
earlier which have now got another name and

01:09:42.139 --> 01:09:44.460
that is the ability of the Secretary of State

01:09:44.500 --> 01:09:46.301
to decide on information that they have which

01:09:46.341 --> 01:09:50.743
they cannot share which is kept secret that

01:09:51.063 --> 01:09:54.985
certain people should be under a control

01:09:55.085 --> 01:10:00.246
order now called a T-PINs order or, for example,

01:10:00.286 --> 01:10:03.368
the executive power under counter-terrorism

01:10:03.408 --> 01:10:06.991
legislation, which allows the Secretary of

01:10:07.151 --> 01:10:10.633
State to proscribe particular organizations.

01:10:11.734 --> 01:10:16.236
Again, obviously, proscribe al-Qaeda. prescribe

01:10:16.456 --> 01:10:20.198
ISIS etc. But a number of organizations have

01:10:20.238 --> 01:10:25.181
been prescribed which have been queryable.

01:10:26.662 --> 01:10:29.003
Freedom fighters in particular countries

01:10:29.023 --> 01:10:32.505
that are not democratic have been prescribed.

01:10:33.205 --> 01:10:39.013
So there are issues around the power of the

01:10:39.053 --> 01:10:42.995
government, without the government, those

01:10:43.035 --> 01:10:47.057
who are in power, and the erosion of the

01:10:47.097 --> 01:10:51.479
Human Rights Act would then allow them to

01:10:51.539 --> 01:10:55.301
have much more executive power, executive

01:10:55.361 --> 01:10:57.382
exceptionalism, which is talked about in

01:10:57.422 --> 01:11:01.344
the US. And that's part of the problem, not

01:11:01.384 --> 01:11:02.905
only for Muslims, but for everybody.

01:11:05.863 --> 01:11:10.386
The Conservative election bill will give

01:11:10.486 --> 01:11:13.548
ministers powers over what has, until now,

01:11:14.428 --> 01:11:16.729
been an independent electoral commission.

01:11:18.330 --> 01:11:21.913
If the bill were to become law, ministers

01:11:21.953 --> 01:11:24.074
would be able to deploy the commission as

01:11:24.114 --> 01:11:27.316
they see fit. That is, they would be able

01:11:27.356 --> 01:11:30.898
to define what counts as election campaign.

01:11:33.213 --> 01:11:35.295
Is this a good thing for democracy and the

01:11:35.355 --> 01:11:37.997
rule of law in light of your thesis of Western

01:11:38.037 --> 01:11:41.961
politicians' institutional racism towards

01:11:42.481 --> 01:11:43.862
Muslim peoples?

01:11:45.864 --> 01:11:51.249
Well, I think your question perceives a problem

01:11:51.929 --> 01:11:54.912
and a perniciousness that perhaps may not

01:11:54.992 --> 01:11:58.855
be seen by people looking at this. I mean,

01:11:59.075 --> 01:12:03.424
we're probably thinking um it's about integrity

01:12:03.464 --> 01:12:07.207
in public life um you and we've had lots

01:12:07.267 --> 01:12:10.569
of discussions and revelations in the last

01:12:10.649 --> 01:12:13.270
few weeks about how much various MPs are

01:12:13.411 --> 01:12:15.272
earning in their second jobs and have they

01:12:15.312 --> 01:12:17.073
declared them and should they declare them

01:12:17.093 --> 01:12:20.435
and how much money should Boris Johnson or

01:12:20.475 --> 01:12:23.537
anybody spend on his wallpaper or or whatever

01:12:23.677 --> 01:12:26.018
else you know and how much of course money

01:12:26.078 --> 01:12:29.521
should uh political parties be allowed to

01:12:29.581 --> 01:12:33.781
accept openly, secretly, etc. All those rules

01:12:34.302 --> 01:12:38.584
about public life. But, of course, at the

01:12:38.664 --> 01:12:41.785
end of the day, it's not just about that.

01:12:41.825 --> 01:12:43.986
It's about the unchecked power. It's about

01:12:44.967 --> 01:12:47.628
the whole question and the importance of

01:12:47.648 --> 01:12:50.669
the ballot box and being able to actually

01:12:51.270 --> 01:12:55.272
vote. And the concern is that in that respect,

01:12:56.852 --> 01:12:59.280
in getting your voice heard, in that respect

01:12:59.360 --> 01:13:02.222
that some organizations might be prohibited

01:13:02.302 --> 01:13:06.024
from participating. So we're just saying,

01:13:06.064 --> 01:13:10.966
let's say, left-wing perceived institutions,

01:13:11.026 --> 01:13:13.787
organizations might be prohibited. The rules

01:13:13.867 --> 01:13:16.208
might be put in such a way. So it's about

01:13:16.288 --> 01:13:19.350
public life in a much wider sense. And it

01:13:19.410 --> 01:13:22.771
does go, as you're saying, very worryingly,

01:13:22.852 --> 01:13:25.853
I think, to the root of democracy.

01:13:29.168 --> 01:13:32.809
The same bill also provides for a new requirement

01:13:32.849 --> 01:13:37.150
for voters to show a photo ID before being

01:13:37.350 --> 01:13:42.152
handed a ballot, a remedy allegedly for voter

01:13:42.192 --> 01:13:46.453
fraud. Susan, what is your opinion about

01:13:46.613 --> 01:13:50.774
voter IDs? I guess the background of the

01:13:50.814 --> 01:13:54.195
much contested issue of Muslim women's clothing

01:13:54.716 --> 01:13:55.756
in public places.

01:13:58.447 --> 01:14:01.470
Well, the whole objective, I mean, if we

01:14:01.490 --> 01:14:03.491
look at the parliamentary debates on this,

01:14:03.531 --> 01:14:07.054
the whole objective is to increase voter

01:14:07.114 --> 01:14:09.636
participation. So how are we going to increase

01:14:09.696 --> 01:14:13.419
voter participation? The young, marginalized

01:14:13.479 --> 01:14:15.281
groups who feel they don't have a stake in

01:14:15.301 --> 01:14:17.022
the community, who feel that they're not

01:14:17.122 --> 01:14:20.245
heard, how are we going to increase that?

01:14:21.566 --> 01:14:26.210
And the feeling is that IDs, getting an ID,

01:14:26.290 --> 01:14:28.451
so it's not just about the notion of fraud,

01:14:28.491 --> 01:14:31.393
I mean it sounds like this is part of the

01:14:31.433 --> 01:14:34.174
objective and let's really have a look at

01:14:34.194 --> 01:14:36.936
the facts that when we come to voter fraud

01:14:36.996 --> 01:14:39.737
there are very very few cases of voter fraud,

01:14:39.777 --> 01:14:42.819
so let's dismiss that, let's look at voter

01:14:42.859 --> 01:14:48.482
participation. Is actually having to declare

01:14:48.522 --> 01:14:51.397
yourself with an identity card going to increase

01:14:51.417 --> 01:14:56.381
this? It's going to create this massive problem

01:14:56.481 --> 01:14:59.884
of actually identity cards, who's going to

01:15:00.384 --> 01:15:03.567
manage that whole operation? And anyway,

01:15:04.087 --> 01:15:06.069
is it necessary and is it going to turn people

01:15:06.109 --> 01:15:09.064
away? And of course, with the whole question

01:15:09.264 --> 01:15:13.686
of face coverings, although very few women

01:15:13.926 --> 01:15:15.787
actually in the United Kingdom, I don't know

01:15:15.827 --> 01:15:17.987
the numbers, actually wear a face covering,

01:15:18.047 --> 01:15:20.828
although you wouldn't think it if you read

01:15:21.248 --> 01:15:25.710
some of the newspapers, it's nevertheless

01:15:26.190 --> 01:15:29.731
is an infringement on the privacy of somebody

01:15:29.771 --> 01:15:32.432
who wants to wear a face covering. In my

01:15:32.492 --> 01:15:35.273
view it's totally unnecessary, it's a red

01:15:35.333 --> 01:15:43.672
herring and we don't need this kind of policing.

01:15:43.713 --> 01:15:46.615
I think it will fuel further feelings of

01:15:46.695 --> 01:15:49.637
alienation amongst those even who don't wear

01:15:50.518 --> 01:15:54.982
face covering. And I don't think it's anything

01:15:55.042 --> 01:15:58.224
that we need. I'm not really sure why it's

01:15:58.264 --> 01:16:01.007
part of the, I can't see why it should be

01:16:01.047 --> 01:16:03.709
part of the latest proposals.

01:16:05.472 --> 01:16:09.955
What impact, if any, has Brexit had on UK's

01:16:10.075 --> 01:16:12.876
ability to tackle the twin problems of Islamic

01:16:13.277 --> 01:16:16.659
terrorism and Muslim integration in British

01:16:16.699 --> 01:16:17.279
society?

01:16:19.641 --> 01:16:23.203
Well, we all know how very divisive Brexit

01:16:23.243 --> 01:16:30.447
has been. Very divisive. And Brexit has fuelled

01:16:32.543 --> 01:16:35.965
much, not only Islamophobia, but the whole

01:16:36.846 --> 01:16:40.228
treatment, the anti, not just anti-Muslim,

01:16:40.248 --> 01:16:43.009
but the racism in respect of various other

01:16:43.049 --> 01:16:47.092
communities. I mean, after Brexit had been

01:16:47.112 --> 01:16:50.234
won or lost, depending on which side of the

01:16:50.274 --> 01:16:53.498
fence you're on, in my local community my

01:16:53.558 --> 01:16:57.159
local Polish shops were defaced. So we're

01:16:57.179 --> 01:16:59.859
not just talking about anti-Muslim feeling.

01:17:00.399 --> 01:17:04.720
It has actually emboldened, it has emboldened

01:17:04.740 --> 01:17:08.681
a feeling of us and them, of a difference

01:17:09.121 --> 01:17:11.862
between, and again, going back to nationalism,

01:17:12.182 --> 01:17:15.142
patriotism that I spoke about earlier, that

01:17:15.182 --> 01:17:18.463
has been further shored up and emboldened.

01:17:19.712 --> 01:17:22.213
We know that post Brexit we have the evidence

01:17:22.253 --> 01:17:24.573
whether it's the Equality and Human Rights

01:17:24.613 --> 01:17:26.934
Commission in the UK or whether it's the

01:17:27.794 --> 01:17:31.214
European Human Rights Commission. We see

01:17:31.275 --> 01:17:34.455
that actual race hatred and hate crimes have

01:17:34.495 --> 01:17:38.396
very much risen exponentially since Brexit

01:17:38.496 --> 01:17:40.916
and particular groups. I'm not going to name

01:17:40.976 --> 01:17:42.277
any of them. I don't want to give them a

01:17:42.337 --> 01:17:44.617
further platform but we know who they are.

01:17:45.357 --> 01:17:49.278
We've moved into an era where hate speech

01:17:49.318 --> 01:17:53.360
is tolerated much more than it ever was.

01:17:53.460 --> 01:17:57.942
So I think it has had a damaging impact.

01:17:59.963 --> 01:18:02.504
To deal with the twin problems of Islamic

01:18:02.564 --> 01:18:06.646
terrorism, I think it's probably fueled a

01:18:06.946 --> 01:18:11.828
feeling of exclusion, of alienation, of anger,

01:18:11.988 --> 01:18:14.329
of disappointment, all these emotions within

01:18:14.409 --> 01:18:16.970
those communities, not just the Muslim community

01:18:17.111 --> 01:18:20.738
within the UK. um so i don't think it's it's

01:18:20.858 --> 01:18:23.479
tackled it may have actually exacerbated

01:18:23.539 --> 01:18:27.980
a feeling of outsiderness um and it has actually

01:18:28.080 --> 01:18:31.001
allowed and given permission for those who

01:18:31.161 --> 01:18:34.642
are islamophobic who who are anti-muslim

01:18:35.102 --> 01:18:40.424
and anti other groups um to to have a greater

01:18:40.604 --> 01:18:45.326
voice finally susan

01:18:46.253 --> 01:18:49.274
What is your best tip for making the world

01:18:49.294 --> 01:18:50.155
a better place?

01:18:51.436 --> 01:18:53.677
Well, I thought of Desert Island Discs, you

01:18:53.717 --> 01:18:57.959
know, when you say this. And I think of,

01:18:58.039 --> 01:19:00.280
you know, what would be my books? And, you

01:19:00.300 --> 01:19:06.223
know, there's no one message. So I'm going

01:19:06.243 --> 01:19:09.044
to just refer to somebody else, Timothy Snyder.

01:19:09.404 --> 01:19:11.245
You'll be very pleased. It's the New York

01:19:11.285 --> 01:19:13.346
Times bestseller. It's called On Tyranny.

01:18:51.436 --> 01:19:18.884
20 lessons from the 20th century. And I do

01:19:19.064 --> 01:19:22.565
say in my book that we must stand up, speak

01:19:22.725 --> 01:19:27.227
out, and brave the tide to turn it. The tide,

01:19:27.287 --> 01:19:30.288
that's the tide of the dominant lying narrative

01:19:30.368 --> 01:19:33.249
and let the counter-narrative speak. But

01:19:34.050 --> 01:19:38.571
this is what Timothy Snyder says. Stand out.

01:19:39.232 --> 01:19:42.513
Someone has to. It's easy to follow along.

01:19:43.415 --> 01:19:46.258
It can feel strange to do or say something

01:19:46.338 --> 01:19:49.360
different, but without that unease, there

01:19:49.420 --> 01:19:54.404
is no freedom. Remember Rosa Parks, the moment

01:19:54.525 --> 01:19:58.468
you set an example, the spell of the status

01:19:58.588 --> 01:20:05.614
quo is broken and others will follow. I do

01:20:05.994 --> 01:20:10.138
hope so. Thank you, Stephen.

01:20:10.705 --> 01:20:13.846
At which point I must say, Professor Susan

01:20:13.966 --> 01:20:16.307
Edwards, thank you so much for giving us

01:20:16.347 --> 01:20:20.809
your time. It really has been enlightening.

01:20:21.769 --> 01:20:24.010
Thank you so much, Stephen. Thank you.

01:20:25.150 --> 01:20:28.132
This podcast was brought to you by the Kamgasa

01:20:28.172 --> 01:20:31.733
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01:20:33.974 --> 01:20:37.035
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