WEBVTT 00:02.329 --> 00:07.052 Hello. Welcome back to Conversations with 00:07.152 --> 00:12.315 Stephen Kamugasa. This is the first episode 00:12.955 --> 00:16.897 in our 2026 Citizenship and Civil Society 00:16.957 --> 00:23.901 series. Today's guest is Lord Alf Dubs, a 00:23.941 --> 00:27.223 British Labour life peer a former member 00:27.283 --> 00:30.844 of parliament and a lifelong campaigner for 00:30.884 --> 00:36.425 the rights of refugees. Lord Dubs is widely 00:36.485 --> 00:40.146 known for successfully campaigning for an 00:40.326 --> 01:31.499 amendment to the Immigration Act in 2016, 00:45.247 --> 00:48.188 which compelled the UK government to relocate 00:48.208 --> 00:51.528 a specified number of unaccompanied child 00:51.608 --> 00:56.422 refugees from Europe to the UK. an effort 00:56.582 --> 00:59.783 often referred to as the Dubs Amendment. 01:01.703 --> 01:05.044 He remains an active and independent-minded 01:05.164 --> 01:08.504 member of the House of Lords, continuing 01:08.544 --> 01:11.725 to champion human rights, social justice, 01:12.545 --> 01:18.426 and refugee policy. In this episode, we discuss 01:18.466 --> 01:23.933 the topic, who are we now? Citizenship, Civil 01:23.973 --> 01:27.456 Society, and the Multipolar New World Order. 01:29.297 --> 01:31.499 Lord Alf Dubs, welcome. 01:32.720 --> 01:34.622 Good morning, thank you. Thank you for inviting 01:34.642 --> 01:35.263 me to join you. 01:38.365 --> 01:41.788 Your first appearance on this podcast on 01:41.868 --> 01:45.271 an episode titled Practise Hospitality, the 01:45.331 --> 01:48.851 Strangers and Refugees, provided a powerful 01:48.951 --> 01:52.474 exploration of the human stories behind the 01:52.494 --> 01:56.957 refugee experience. Drawing upon your own 01:57.117 --> 02:00.740 inspiring journey from being a stranger and 02:00.820 --> 02:04.643 refugee to become a prominent advocate, you 02:04.683 --> 02:07.405 highlighted the challenges and triumphs of 02:07.706 --> 02:12.449 welcoming those seeking refuge. The conversation 02:12.569 --> 02:15.392 focused on the importance of listening to 02:15.432 --> 02:19.062 survivors' voices debunking common myths 02:19.783 --> 02:22.124 and misconceptions surrounding refugees, 02:23.005 --> 02:25.607 and sharing practical advice for communities 02:26.267 --> 02:29.750 to create safe environments and make a positive 02:30.050 --> 02:33.532 hospitable impact on the lives of newcomers. 02:35.914 --> 02:39.336 Load dubs. In our previous conversation, 02:39.396 --> 02:42.338 we focused on the individual act of practising 02:42.418 --> 02:47.634 hospitality. Now, as we look at the new theme 02:47.795 --> 02:52.217 of citizenship and civil society, what happens 02:52.937 --> 02:55.999 when the hospitality of the individual runs 02:56.139 --> 03:00.201 up against the official policies and structures 03:00.421 --> 03:04.042 of a nation state? Does the machinery of 03:04.082 --> 03:06.904 the modern state make it inherently difficult, 03:07.704 --> 03:11.266 perhaps even radical, for an individual to 03:11.306 --> 03:13.347 be truly hospitable today? 03:15.575 --> 03:19.136 Well, I think what we have seen, certainly 03:19.176 --> 03:22.318 in the UK, is that although there have been 03:22.338 --> 03:27.059 hostile comments to immigrants and especially 03:27.099 --> 03:29.780 to asylum seekers by government ministers, 03:31.981 --> 03:34.522 I think that local communities have still 03:34.582 --> 03:38.683 been pretty supportive. However, if government 03:39.103 --> 03:42.025 say that, as in a previous government, a 03:42.065 --> 03:44.927 conservative minister said that asylum seekers 03:44.967 --> 03:48.649 are invaders, then it is harder for local 03:48.689 --> 03:50.890 communities to be supportive. So there is 03:50.930 --> 03:53.332 a tension going on. And I think in politics, 03:53.372 --> 03:55.953 those of us that are supporting human rights 03:57.114 --> 03:59.335 and the rights of asylum seekers and refugees, 03:59.856 --> 04:01.817 we have to be aware that public opinion ought 04:01.837 --> 04:04.839 to be on our side. And I think the most important 04:04.879 --> 04:08.960 thing is to indicate to people what it is 04:09.020 --> 04:11.642 that asylum seekers have gone through before 04:11.682 --> 04:14.205 they fled for safety to Europe and in particular 04:14.245 --> 04:18.071 to the UK. In other words, they've gone through 04:18.091 --> 04:21.052 the most terrifying experiences. I was talking 04:21.092 --> 04:24.654 to a Syrian boy some time ago who told me 04:24.674 --> 04:28.675 that his father had been blown up by a bomb 04:28.715 --> 04:31.937 in front of him in Aleppo, Damascus. A terrifying 04:31.977 --> 04:35.338 thing to happen. Or people who fled Afghanistan. 04:35.858 --> 04:38.699 These are terrible experiences. And I think 04:38.759 --> 04:41.718 the more we understand in local communities 04:41.838 --> 04:44.399 what people have been through, the more likely 04:44.419 --> 04:46.340 it is that local communities will wish to 04:46.380 --> 04:48.201 be supportive of newcomers. 04:51.323 --> 04:54.704 Your story shows how a single Kindertransport 04:54.765 --> 04:59.307 child became a British citizen, a politician, 04:59.967 --> 05:05.050 and a lifelong advocate. Looking at the rise 05:05.130 --> 05:08.838 of a multi-polar world order, Do you see 05:08.858 --> 05:12.902 the concept of national citizenship as fundamentally 05:12.942 --> 05:17.266 changing in this new global landscape? What 05:17.626 --> 05:21.029 are the core responsibilities of a global 05:21.069 --> 05:24.132 citizen versus a national citizen? 05:24.152 --> 05:29.698 That's quite difficult. What we're finding, 05:29.818 --> 05:32.160 certainly in many European countries, including 05:32.180 --> 05:35.969 the UK, is that extremely right-wing political 05:36.029 --> 05:39.690 parties are exploiting the issue of asylum 05:39.710 --> 05:44.311 seekers, quite often dishonestly, exploiting 05:44.351 --> 05:47.512 the issue in order to gain cheap political 05:47.572 --> 05:50.233 votes. And so there is a tension already 05:50.693 --> 05:53.474 between some of the political parties. Hungary 05:53.514 --> 05:55.915 was always like that. We've seen it in Slovakia, 05:56.015 --> 06:01.239 Austria, Germany, France, Italy. These are 06:01.319 --> 06:04.041 real tensions which are affecting not just 06:04.661 --> 06:06.403 individuals, but which are affecting the 06:06.443 --> 06:08.464 way in which the politics is working in all 06:08.484 --> 06:11.626 these countries. In the UK, the Reform Party, 06:12.367 --> 06:16.650 which is very anti-asylum-seeking, anti-immigrant, 06:17.190 --> 06:19.732 the Reform Party is, according to opinion 06:19.752 --> 06:22.254 polls, doing pretty well. These are tensions 06:22.294 --> 06:24.635 we've got here, and we've got tensions elsewhere. 06:25.196 --> 06:28.058 The challenge to other politicians who believe 06:28.098 --> 06:31.401 in human rights and democracy is to indicate 06:31.441 --> 06:33.302 that that is not the way you want to go forward. 06:33.662 --> 06:35.624 But it's difficult and we will have to see 06:35.964 --> 06:37.986 in forthcoming elections how this works out. 06:38.366 --> 06:40.608 But there's certainly a more difficult situation 06:41.008 --> 06:43.810 in terms of national politics influencing 06:45.031 --> 06:48.434 thinking about asylum seekers than we've 06:48.454 --> 06:52.697 had before. I would say this though, that 06:52.758 --> 06:55.821 there is a confusion deliberately fostered 06:55.861 --> 06:59.686 by some of our popular newspapers, of confusion 06:59.726 --> 07:01.749 between immigrants and the sound seekers. 07:01.870 --> 07:05.054 Can I make that clear? There's nothing unworthy 07:05.074 --> 07:07.850 about being an economic migrant. each country 07:07.890 --> 07:10.351 can decide in terms of its own labour market 07:10.391 --> 07:13.472 and other needs how many people to take. 07:13.953 --> 07:16.073 And so we have shortage occupations here 07:16.413 --> 07:17.874 and we make sure that people who come here 07:18.174 --> 07:21.035 can fill those jobs. We can't fill them locally. 07:21.635 --> 07:23.636 But that's very different from asylum seekers 07:24.056 --> 07:26.017 who are protected by human rights agreements. 07:26.377 --> 07:28.938 They're protected by the 1951 Geneva Convention 07:29.358 --> 07:31.919 and so they come here or ought to come here 07:32.259 --> 07:36.901 with human rights protections. And so And 07:36.941 --> 07:39.202 although, of all the immigrants, the asylum 07:39.222 --> 07:42.203 seekers are a smallish proportion, it's being 07:42.243 --> 07:44.283 built up in the papers as if they represented 07:44.363 --> 07:47.524 everybody in the country. And it's not so, 07:47.884 --> 07:50.365 but these are serious misconceptions which 07:50.425 --> 07:53.666 affect the way in which we can put over more 07:53.706 --> 07:55.447 sensible human rights-based policies. 07:58.348 --> 08:01.229 Given your tireless work on behalf of child 08:01.269 --> 08:04.630 refugees, which is often a battle against 08:04.730 --> 08:08.736 government policy, How do you define the 08:08.776 --> 08:13.858 moral duty of a citizen in a democracy? Is 08:13.938 --> 08:18.060 it primarily to obey the law or is it to 08:18.120 --> 08:21.322 continually push that law towards a more 08:21.402 --> 08:23.583 just and humane outcome? 08:25.202 --> 08:26.965 Well, I don't think there's a conflict between 08:27.005 --> 08:29.949 the two, if I've understood you correctly. 08:30.430 --> 08:33.575 It seems to me that in a democracy we have 08:34.176 --> 08:37.401 whatever the status quo is, and then citizens 08:37.441 --> 08:40.743 have the right as politicians have the right 08:40.803 --> 08:44.064 on their behalf to argue for change. And 08:44.124 --> 08:46.525 that is quite legitimate. And those changes 08:46.565 --> 08:48.786 can reflect both the practical details of 08:48.826 --> 08:51.928 policy, as well as to argue about attitudes 08:51.988 --> 08:54.088 and understanding. But I don't think there 08:54.108 --> 08:56.289 needs to be a conflict. I think citizens 08:56.329 --> 08:58.931 have the right to speak out and let their 08:58.951 --> 09:00.871 voice be heard and let their influence be 09:00.931 --> 09:03.733 heard. And it's up to politicians to be sensitive 09:03.773 --> 09:04.473 to those voices. 09:07.605 --> 09:10.186 When we started planning this podcast in 09:07.605 --> 09:14.707 2025, I reached out to Antony Lowenstein, 09:15.387 --> 09:17.768 who is known for his critical stance on the 09:17.868 --> 09:20.308 Israeli government's treatment of Palestinians 09:21.329 --> 09:23.749 and the impact of the global military industrial 09:23.789 --> 09:28.110 complex. Antony Lowenstein is the author 09:28.670 --> 09:32.647 of the Palestine Laboratory. how Israel exports 09:33.107 --> 09:35.929 the technology of occupation around the world, 09:36.589 --> 09:39.290 which won the prestigious Walkley Book Award 09:39.831 --> 09:44.613 for long-form journalism. His question is 09:44.693 --> 09:49.096 as follows. Considering current and proposed 09:49.216 --> 09:52.538 shifts in the UK's immigration and asylum 09:52.598 --> 09:56.099 policies, such as potential increases in 09:56.139 --> 09:59.921 visa renewal fees, stricter English language 10:00.002 --> 10:03.818 requirements, and extended paths to permanent 10:03.919 --> 10:09.484 settlement. What specific social, economic, 10:10.525 --> 10:13.268 and political consequences could such changes 10:13.368 --> 10:17.713 have on the UK's demographic makeup and international 10:17.753 --> 10:19.575 standing in the coming years? 10:21.397 --> 10:23.678 Well, I'm not sure I've quite understood 10:23.718 --> 10:28.119 that, but certainly there are changes in 10:28.699 --> 10:31.600 our population, in the demography. One has 10:31.620 --> 10:33.621 to walk around London to see that it's a 10:33.661 --> 10:35.761 great thing. We're a multicultural city, 10:36.501 --> 10:38.482 as are increasingly other cities in Europe 10:38.562 --> 10:42.823 and some in North America. But there's also 10:42.883 --> 10:44.624 the need to get the public to accept this. 10:46.024 --> 10:48.925 And there is a need for people coming here. 10:48.945 --> 10:52.886 I think people coming here should be helped 10:52.906 --> 10:55.266 to learn English. I think not to speak the 10:55.306 --> 10:57.367 language of a country weakens one's position. 10:57.887 --> 10:59.687 It shouldn't be a precondition for people 10:59.727 --> 11:02.088 coming here, but it should be something which 11:02.128 --> 11:05.249 we should encourage people to do when they 11:05.269 --> 11:07.570 get here. because having people living in 11:07.610 --> 11:09.310 Britain who don't speak a word of English 11:09.691 --> 11:12.132 is not very healthy for democracy, and above 11:12.192 --> 11:14.713 all it weakens the position of people in 11:14.753 --> 11:18.534 terms of achieving their rights. So I think 11:18.594 --> 11:21.836 language is an important aspect. In many 11:21.956 --> 11:25.357 contexts, work and the right to work, which 11:25.457 --> 11:28.319 is not given to asylum seekers until they're 11:28.339 --> 11:30.720 given their status here, it means they can 11:30.740 --> 11:32.800 go for quite a long time without being allowed 11:32.840 --> 11:35.486 to work, which is It's very depressing in 11:35.506 --> 11:40.887 terms of policy. But I think when people 11:40.927 --> 11:42.968 can get to work, because work will tend to 11:43.008 --> 11:48.489 be a cross-community type workforce usually, 11:48.509 --> 11:51.030 and therefore they'll acquire English. And 11:51.070 --> 11:52.750 of course, the next generation of children 11:52.850 --> 11:55.711 here will learn English at school. And so 11:55.731 --> 11:59.292 I'm hoping that the generation ahead, the 11:59.372 --> 12:03.134 tendency for some, immigrants to stick to 12:03.154 --> 12:04.875 their own language rather than English will 12:04.915 --> 12:06.457 be lessened because the children at school 12:06.477 --> 12:08.719 will have to engage with their fellow schoolmates. 12:09.099 --> 12:11.241 So there are changes happening. I think the 12:11.281 --> 12:12.842 question is how well we can manage those 12:12.902 --> 12:17.066 changes. It's easier to manage those changes 12:17.186 --> 12:19.248 if there's a supportive government. More 12:19.308 --> 12:22.931 difficult if if there's a feeling that the 12:22.991 --> 12:26.594 government is a bit hostile. I should say, 12:26.634 --> 12:28.876 by the way, when you called it the Dubs Amendment 12:28.896 --> 12:31.178 for child refugees, I didn't call it that. 12:31.238 --> 12:33.239 I would not be so pompous as to call it after 12:33.279 --> 12:35.221 my own name. That was done by the media, 12:35.681 --> 12:38.964 and unfortunately it stuck. But can I also 12:39.064 --> 12:41.326 say that any campaigning I've done on behalf 12:41.386 --> 12:43.868 of refugees or child refugees has been done 12:43.888 --> 12:46.390 with a lot of other people. I tend to get 12:46.430 --> 12:48.412 more publicity for all sorts of reasons, 12:48.452 --> 12:51.854 which you understand, but there's been a 12:51.874 --> 12:54.076 lot of support. It hasn't been a solo effort 12:54.116 --> 12:57.217 by me, it's been a collective effort, collabouratively 12:57.277 --> 12:59.159 working with other people to achieve the 12:59.199 --> 13:00.379 maximum political impact. 13:02.781 --> 13:06.123 Lord Dubs, Antony Lowenstein earlier raised 13:06.183 --> 13:09.105 the international consequences of our increasingly 13:09.245 --> 13:13.107 strict immigration policies. To consider 13:13.147 --> 13:15.708 the domestic side, which you've kindly touched 13:15.768 --> 13:20.302 upon, of the same coin, Dr. Maria Chamberlain, 13:20.482 --> 13:24.943 who joined our genocide series in 2024 with 13:25.004 --> 13:29.145 her podcast, Genocide, why it is important 13:29.165 --> 13:32.765 to bear witness, recently wrote to me about 13:33.186 --> 13:36.766 the unnatural way refugees are currently 13:36.826 --> 13:41.188 housed in the UK. She argues that confining 13:41.268 --> 13:45.209 people to hotels and hostels while denying 13:45.249 --> 13:49.291 them the right to work risks creating alien 13:49.331 --> 13:52.997 tribes and exacerbating the very social tensions 13:53.658 --> 14:00.408 we have witnessed in Scotland. In the spirit 14:00.468 --> 14:05.492 of nurturing a healthy civil society? Should 14:05.532 --> 14:07.934 the government abandon this institutional 14:07.974 --> 14:10.936 model in favour of community-led approaches, 14:11.896 --> 14:16.039 such as volunteer-hosted housing and immediate 14:16.079 --> 14:19.681 work permits, so that diversity becomes a 14:19.761 --> 14:22.223 source of strength rather than division? 14:24.201 --> 14:25.923 Well, I think certainly diversity should 14:25.943 --> 14:28.906 be seen as a social strength, and I agree 14:28.946 --> 14:32.509 with that. Oh, I'm not sure I followed the 14:32.830 --> 14:35.713 point about Scotland. I wasn't aware that 14:35.933 --> 14:37.915 things were that different in Scotland. If 14:37.975 --> 14:39.436 anything, the Scots have been a little bit 14:39.476 --> 14:44.381 more welcoming of newcomers than parts of 14:44.441 --> 14:46.943 England. But as I say, I think London in 14:47.003 --> 14:49.425 England has been more supportive of newcomers 14:49.445 --> 14:51.387 than some parts of the country where there 14:51.407 --> 14:55.150 are fewer non-white faces, to put it that 14:55.190 --> 14:59.933 way. I think we have tensions in our society. 15:01.114 --> 15:02.475 Can I just go back to the point you asked 15:02.495 --> 15:04.897 me about? You mentioned Gaza in the previous 15:04.937 --> 15:06.579 question, which I don't think I answered. 15:10.021 --> 15:12.102 I am shocked by what has been happening. 15:12.562 --> 15:14.703 I was shocked by October the 7th, and I'm 15:14.743 --> 15:18.985 shocked by the Israeli government in murdering 15:19.045 --> 15:22.426 so many Palestinians in Gaza. And this is 15:22.626 --> 15:25.508 absolutely no way forward. And we have to 15:25.628 --> 15:28.109 use the maximum influence we have. It's very 15:28.149 --> 15:31.510 difficult, given the American position of 15:31.530 --> 15:33.271 being very supportive of the Israeli government. 15:33.971 --> 15:36.772 I think the Israeli government must be seen 15:36.812 --> 15:38.973 to be guilty of war crimes. for some of the 15:38.993 --> 15:41.295 things that have happened. And I find all 15:41.315 --> 15:44.477 that very shocking. But however, we've got 15:44.497 --> 15:48.299 to be careful how we respond in terms of 15:48.379 --> 15:52.401 individuals, because there are people from 15:52.441 --> 15:54.763 Gaza who need medical help. and if they can't 15:54.823 --> 15:56.325 get it in the region then i think we should 15:56.365 --> 15:58.587 be supportive and give them medical help 15:58.647 --> 16:01.431 here what we don't want because the palestinians 16:01.511 --> 16:03.333 are wanted is that we have large numbers 16:03.373 --> 16:05.515 of people from gaza coming here and then 16:05.555 --> 16:07.738 staying here permanently because the palestinians 16:07.858 --> 16:10.900 don't want don't want their territory to 16:10.940 --> 16:13.422 be denuded of Palestinians. They don't want 16:13.562 --> 16:15.684 any further ethnic cleansing. So we've got 16:15.704 --> 16:17.905 to be careful that anybody coming to the 16:18.026 --> 16:21.588 UK as a Palestinian, unless it is for family 16:21.628 --> 16:23.990 union purposes—a child, for example, with 16:24.270 --> 16:26.231 parents who've been killed, who've got relatives 16:26.292 --> 16:28.413 in the UK—unless it's for that, we've got 16:28.433 --> 16:30.895 to be very careful that we don't have permanent 16:32.011 --> 16:34.071 movement of population of Palestinians to 16:34.091 --> 16:37.352 the UK. But that's a specific example. And 16:38.212 --> 16:39.653 I think on the whole, we've got to be more 16:39.693 --> 16:43.033 welcoming of people who need medical help 16:43.093 --> 16:45.014 here. Some countries are doing better than 16:45.054 --> 16:46.834 we are, and we've got to get on with it. 16:50.695 --> 16:53.515 In an interview with The Standard published 16:53.735 --> 16:59.376 on September 25th, 2025, You expressed regret 16:59.596 --> 17:02.258 over your party's decision to adopt a more 17:02.358 --> 17:06.160 stringent immigration policy. You voiced 17:06.220 --> 17:09.402 hope that this shift is merely temporary 17:10.483 --> 17:13.065 and that the party will soon return to the 17:13.105 --> 17:15.967 compassionate stance it has historically 17:16.667 --> 17:21.370 upheld. You attributed the change to mounting 17:21.430 --> 17:23.892 political pressure from opposition parties. 17:26.644 --> 17:30.686 If the current immigration policy is a response 17:30.746 --> 17:34.708 to mounting political pressure, as you suggest, 17:36.348 --> 17:39.129 doesn't that indicate a fundamental split 17:39.210 --> 17:42.511 within the British idea of who are we now? 17:43.992 --> 17:47.033 What does it mean for the future of active 17:47.113 --> 17:52.155 citizenship when one of the UK's major parties 17:52.215 --> 17:55.657 feels compelled to adopt a policy that runs 17:55.737 --> 17:59.568 contrary to its own historical values and 18:00.029 --> 18:03.093 arguably the values of a significant portion 18:03.513 --> 18:04.475 of civil society. 18:06.394 --> 18:10.377 I think that's a difficult one. Look, I'd 18:10.457 --> 18:13.379 hoped that a Labour government would follow 18:13.399 --> 18:15.741 the policies that Labour had in opposition 18:16.341 --> 18:18.883 and be more sympathetic, particularly to 18:18.943 --> 18:22.286 asylum seekers. That's a matter of both a 18:22.346 --> 18:25.548 national response and also encouraging positive 18:25.588 --> 18:30.732 responses at a local level. I was sorry that 18:31.293 --> 18:33.715 our government began adopting a hard-line 18:33.755 --> 18:37.498 approach, or a harder-line approach. But 18:40.100 --> 18:43.163 it's an unstable situation in terms of government 18:43.183 --> 18:44.964 policy, because the government is still looking 18:45.004 --> 18:47.566 at some aspects of policy like family union, 18:47.867 --> 18:49.868 and we hope to hear more from the government 18:49.908 --> 18:52.451 before too long. So it's not absolutely stable. 18:52.731 --> 18:55.433 But I think I think, unfortunately, some 18:55.453 --> 18:58.857 of this has been under pressure of the Reform 18:58.897 --> 19:04.262 Party. There is, I'm afraid, because of the 19:04.302 --> 19:07.205 way politics is playing out here, more hostility 19:07.265 --> 19:09.948 to asylum seekers, as there is or has been 19:09.968 --> 19:12.150 for some time in many European countries 19:12.170 --> 19:14.693 that I mentioned. I think we're facing a 19:14.733 --> 19:17.417 real challenge And I hope very much that 19:17.477 --> 19:21.303 we can revert to a sense of policy. Of course, 19:21.443 --> 19:23.466 nobody likes people crossing the channel 19:23.506 --> 19:26.250 in boats with traffickers charging large 19:26.310 --> 19:29.155 sums. I mean, that is awful. It is so dangerous. 19:29.560 --> 19:31.341 and it's not the way for a sensible policy. 19:32.101 --> 19:34.022 And of course the newspapers make an awful 19:34.062 --> 19:36.903 lot of people coming by boat, even if they're 19:36.923 --> 19:39.464 a small proportion of the total people coming 19:39.505 --> 19:42.466 in, if you include economic migrants coming 19:42.506 --> 19:46.168 for jobs. So I think we have real tensions 19:46.588 --> 19:48.769 here, as there are in other European countries, 19:49.169 --> 19:53.651 and indeed in North America, as to how we 19:53.691 --> 19:56.892 deal with what is a volatile situation. But 19:56.912 --> 19:59.473 I'm hoping very much that we will revert 20:00.194 --> 20:02.214 to the more humane, compassionate approach 20:02.514 --> 20:05.615 that has characterised Britain's way of dealing 20:05.635 --> 20:06.796 with these things in the past. 20:10.177 --> 20:16.279 On May 16th 2025, you, along with Sir Jacob 20:16.319 --> 20:19.720 Rees-Mogg, published a piece in the Financial 20:19.760 --> 20:23.481 Times titled Alf Dubs and Jacob Rees-Mogg. 20:24.514 --> 20:27.975 citizenship stripping is fundamentally un-British. 20:29.135 --> 20:32.896 This is what you wrote and I quote. Nevertheless, 20:33.876 --> 20:36.557 both of us believe that British citizenship 20:37.237 --> 20:39.878 should confer the same inalienable rights 20:40.718 --> 20:44.619 on all those who hold it, on those of mixed 20:44.679 --> 20:48.220 heritage, on those whose ancestors were here 20:48.420 --> 20:51.580 before the Norman conquest, and on those 20:51.620 --> 20:55.646 who took the oath of citizenship today. we 20:55.706 --> 20:59.708 reject as fundamentally racist the argument 20:59.748 --> 21:03.471 that those born British who hold dual citizenship 21:03.991 --> 21:06.652 can be deprived of their British passport 21:07.333 --> 21:10.495 while those with no foreign heritage cannot. 21:11.395 --> 21:14.877 In other words, we believe that once British, 21:15.698 --> 21:21.541 always and equally British. You and Sir Jacob 21:23.595 --> 21:27.156 contended that the British citizenship should 21:27.276 --> 21:29.496 guarantee the same inalienable rights to 21:29.736 --> 21:34.097 all, irrespective of heritage. Yet the cases 21:34.137 --> 21:38.678 of Shamima Begum and Alaa Abdul-Fattah reveal 21:38.698 --> 21:41.919 a troubling reality. The state appears to 21:41.979 --> 21:45.079 treat some citizenships as more conditional 21:45.300 --> 21:49.800 than others. Does the refusal to repatriate 21:50.241 --> 21:53.676 or protect such individuals mark the quiet 21:53.817 --> 21:57.098 abandonment of the principle, once British, 21:57.739 --> 22:01.140 always British. And in a multipolar world 22:01.521 --> 22:05.923 where rivals scrutinise our conduct, does 22:05.983 --> 22:09.164 this perception of tiered citizenship erode 22:09.224 --> 22:12.246 the UK's moral authority to champion the 22:12.306 --> 22:13.867 rule of law abroad? 22:17.523 --> 22:20.605 Well, in fact, it's a coincidence, but it 22:20.645 --> 22:24.207 was only yesterday that I again raised in 22:24.307 --> 22:28.029 Parliament the issue of Shemima Begum. Now 22:28.069 --> 22:31.230 look, I've met some of the families, and 22:32.511 --> 22:35.032 I think the government is quite wrong. It 22:35.052 --> 22:36.613 was the previous government that started 22:36.653 --> 22:39.355 it, endorsed by the Labour government, that 22:39.395 --> 22:42.777 a woman who was, in her case, 15 years old, 22:43.397 --> 22:45.978 she was probably trafficked to Syria to join 22:46.078 --> 22:49.682 ISIS, She's lost three children who died. 22:50.943 --> 22:53.445 She's had her citizenship taken away on the 22:53.485 --> 22:55.687 spurious grounds that she's a Bangladeshi. 22:56.088 --> 22:57.669 Well, she's never been to Bangladesh in her 22:57.709 --> 22:59.952 life, and the Bangladeshi government are 22:59.972 --> 23:02.114 not prepared to have her back anyway. So 23:02.134 --> 23:04.396 we're left with a person who's had her British 23:04.416 --> 23:07.119 citizenship taken away. She was born here, 23:07.679 --> 23:11.749 had her British citizenship taken away. and 23:11.789 --> 23:14.310 who is stuck in a detention center in northern 23:14.370 --> 23:16.031 Syria, where there's now fighting going on, 23:16.431 --> 23:19.452 with no prospect of ever getting out. In 23:19.552 --> 23:21.813 other words, suffering a life sentence. I 23:21.833 --> 23:24.774 think this is a terrible example of how one 23:24.814 --> 23:26.695 should not strip people of their citizenship. 23:28.016 --> 23:29.276 I don't know whether there might be some 23:29.336 --> 23:33.717 cases sometime when if we're dealing with 23:33.777 --> 23:37.439 an avowed terrorist, that we may have to 23:37.479 --> 23:39.160 look at that. I'm just not sure in my own 23:39.200 --> 23:41.081 mind about that. But I think certainly in 23:41.121 --> 23:46.724 her case, yes, she was trafficked. Yes, she 23:46.784 --> 23:50.246 supported ISIS. And in the camps, she has 23:50.326 --> 23:54.909 not renounced some of her motives for leaving 23:55.669 --> 23:57.470 school in East London and going there with 23:57.530 --> 24:00.412 two other friends who are now dead. But I 24:00.452 --> 24:04.955 think I think it's very difficult for her 24:05.235 --> 24:09.178 to announce her links with the terrorism 24:09.198 --> 24:10.979 in the Middle East when she's surrounded 24:11.019 --> 24:13.201 by people who may be a threat to her. I think 24:13.221 --> 24:15.302 that's not a fair way of judging her. And 24:15.362 --> 24:17.604 she has made it clear that if she has committed 24:17.624 --> 24:20.326 criminal offenses, she's happy to face the 24:20.366 --> 24:22.547 British courts. And that is what the government 24:22.567 --> 24:24.328 should do. Other countries have taken people 24:24.388 --> 24:29.172 from those detention centers. And if we don't 24:29.212 --> 24:31.273 do it, with all the fighting going on, they're 24:31.293 --> 24:33.093 in even more danger. But that is, of course, 24:33.113 --> 24:35.814 an extreme case. But I think taking away 24:35.874 --> 24:38.735 people's citizenship like that, as a fairly 24:38.755 --> 24:41.275 arbitrary decision by a government minister, 24:41.675 --> 24:43.876 is not a healthy way forward. And it seems 24:43.916 --> 24:46.476 to me it's quite wrong. There may be instances 24:47.376 --> 24:50.357 where somebody has really been behaving in 24:50.377 --> 24:53.238 a very damaging way to this country, and, 24:53.798 --> 24:55.878 for example, committing treason in a time 24:55.918 --> 24:59.419 of war. But I'm just not sure in my own mind 24:59.439 --> 25:01.653 whether there should be We should have this 25:01.693 --> 25:04.355 citizenship stripping, and certainly not 25:04.636 --> 25:06.457 when the other citizenship of the person 25:08.159 --> 25:10.060 is one that they can't seek refuge in, like 25:10.100 --> 25:11.942 in the case of Shamima Begum. I'm sorry, 25:11.962 --> 25:14.845 that's a slightly confused answer. Clearly, 25:15.225 --> 25:17.227 I believe Shamima Begum and other people 25:17.287 --> 25:19.228 there should be allowed to come back to Britain 25:20.249 --> 25:21.689 They were born here, they were brought up 25:21.729 --> 25:23.950 here, they were educated here, for all intents 25:23.970 --> 25:25.870 and purposes they're British, and they have 25:25.930 --> 25:28.451 no identity with any other country, even 25:28.491 --> 25:31.452 if ostensibly for historical reasons they 25:31.492 --> 25:33.812 have a passport or theoretical citizenship, 25:34.593 --> 25:37.133 in this case of Bangladesh. So I think we 25:37.153 --> 25:39.074 should be very careful before we take anybody's 25:39.094 --> 25:41.814 citizenship away, because it can have awful 25:41.854 --> 25:44.175 consequences for the rights of that individual. 25:47.332 --> 25:50.253 The title of our podcast is, Who Are We Now? 25:51.693 --> 25:55.534 Citizenship, Civil Society, and the Multipolar 25:55.774 --> 26:01.676 New World Order. On December 4th, 2025, the 26:03.056 --> 26:06.197 Trump administration published its 33-page 26:06.717 --> 26:11.115 national security strategy. the US national 26:11.135 --> 26:14.557 security strategy was that Europe is at risk 26:14.777 --> 26:18.799 of civilizational erasure, attributing this 26:18.819 --> 26:22.782 threat in part to ongoing immigration and 26:22.862 --> 26:29.286 social policies. Civilization erasure is 26:29.326 --> 26:33.108 language that many see as mainstreaming of 26:33.809 --> 26:39.496 great replacement theories. As a survivor 26:39.656 --> 26:44.998 of the 1930s, an era also obsessed with civilization 26:45.078 --> 26:49.520 purity, what is your visceral reaction to 26:49.640 --> 26:53.281 seeing this language in an official White 26:53.341 --> 26:57.542 House document? Is this the ultimate multipolar 26:57.582 --> 27:02.324 threat, not a war of weapons, but a war on 27:02.364 --> 27:05.065 the very idea of a shared humanity? 27:07.896 --> 27:10.660 I think there are real dangers in the way 27:10.720 --> 27:13.863 language is used. And if we go back to the 27:14.364 --> 27:17.808 1930s, the Holocaust started with words of 27:17.868 --> 27:21.508 hostility by one by people in one country 27:21.849 --> 27:24.931 towards the minority in that country. In 27:24.951 --> 27:30.036 this case, Jews or LGBT people or Romans 27:30.096 --> 27:33.800 and so on. And I think there are real dangers 27:34.781 --> 27:37.123 if we use language like you've quoted about 27:37.183 --> 27:40.426 North America, which encourages such hostility 27:40.806 --> 27:43.769 because it poisons local communities. After 27:43.829 --> 27:46.532 all, our job is to help people who've come 27:46.572 --> 27:49.574 to our countries to integrate and make their 27:49.614 --> 27:51.955 way in life with the same rights as anybody 27:52.016 --> 27:55.378 else. And that should be the benchmark, not 27:56.018 --> 27:57.480 a way of saying to people, you shouldn't 27:57.520 --> 27:59.621 be here, picking them up off the street, 27:59.661 --> 28:01.082 as they seem to be doing in parts of the 28:01.122 --> 28:04.545 States, and removing them. I think it's very 28:04.565 --> 28:05.786 difficult. Now, there are a lot of people 28:05.806 --> 28:07.987 in the States who've come without visas and 28:08.007 --> 28:11.049 so on. I understand that. But even so, treating 28:11.089 --> 28:12.651 people like that, there have been some years 28:13.872 --> 28:16.575 in their jobs and so on is really not acceptable. 28:16.956 --> 28:18.898 Can I just go back to the earlier question 28:18.938 --> 28:21.441 about Jacob Rees-Mogg? The reason why Jacob 28:21.461 --> 28:23.163 Rees-Mogg and I did that joint thing in the 28:23.203 --> 28:26.087 Financial Times was because we thought that 28:26.127 --> 28:29.171 if two individuals whose political views 28:29.271 --> 28:31.754 are so far apart as mine from Jacob Rees-Mogg 28:33.252 --> 28:35.856 an agreed position about Shamim Begum and 28:35.956 --> 28:37.879 other people who lost their citizenship then 28:37.899 --> 28:39.882 that at least ought to send a sort of message 28:40.342 --> 28:43.166 which we hoped would have some influence 28:43.246 --> 28:45.509 on government thinking. So far that's not 28:45.550 --> 28:48.073 the case but we'll have to see. The government 28:48.213 --> 28:51.837 are using and apply to my question yesterday 28:51.897 --> 28:54.358 in Parliament, the government are using an 28:55.018 --> 28:57.259 appeal to the European Court of Human Rights 28:57.319 --> 28:59.100 as a way of saying the issue is sub judice. 28:59.581 --> 29:01.461 I just mention that because the pressure 29:01.481 --> 29:03.863 on the government will continue. But to go 29:03.923 --> 29:06.064 back to the main part of your question, yes, 29:07.184 --> 29:10.466 I think using hostile language is dangerous 29:10.786 --> 29:13.907 because it leads to further an escalation 29:14.448 --> 29:17.669 of hostility, and communities become more 29:17.709 --> 29:20.391 divided. I'm afraid we're now seeing far 29:20.431 --> 29:22.852 more divided communities than there have 29:22.872 --> 29:26.153 been before. It's got worse. I think it's 29:26.173 --> 29:27.554 got worse in the United States, it's got 29:27.574 --> 29:29.655 worse here, it's got worse in many European 29:29.695 --> 29:30.115 countries. 29:32.897 --> 29:36.478 Lord Dubs, we have covered the vast landscape 29:36.498 --> 29:40.120 of global power, the erosion of norms, and 29:40.160 --> 29:42.161 the very meaning of the British passport. 29:43.817 --> 29:46.440 you have seen the best and the worst of the 29:46.500 --> 29:51.747 20th and 21st centuries. Given everything 29:51.767 --> 29:55.491 we've discussed today, what is it that keeps 29:55.551 --> 29:56.813 you awake at night? 30:00.174 --> 30:03.757 Well, I think it's a challenge to see whether 30:04.177 --> 30:10.503 anything an individual can do is right and 30:10.563 --> 30:16.308 effective. I think sometimes, how can I collabourate 30:16.428 --> 30:18.930 more effectively with colleagues and NGOs 30:19.010 --> 30:22.353 and so on to make a more positive impact? 30:22.873 --> 30:26.275 So I think it's a challenge as to whether 30:26.356 --> 30:28.057 one is being in politics, whether one is 30:28.097 --> 30:30.198 being effective enough, whether one is doing 30:30.218 --> 30:31.939 the right thing, and whether there's anything 30:31.979 --> 30:33.761 more one can do. And there really always 30:33.821 --> 30:36.483 is more one can do, so I sort of lie awake. 30:36.823 --> 30:39.004 I sleep quite well, so I don't lie awake 30:39.044 --> 30:41.046 too long, but I do think about these things. 30:41.946 --> 30:44.408 I think about them pretty constantly, really, 30:45.369 --> 30:48.191 as to what it is that we in politics can 30:48.251 --> 30:50.693 do better on this whole issue of human rights 30:50.793 --> 30:54.470 and asylum seekers. and citizenship and the 30:54.510 --> 30:58.314 rights of individuals in our societies. One 30:58.334 --> 31:00.076 of the things which we haven't touched on 31:00.096 --> 31:01.798 yet is, of course, that I think we need more 31:01.838 --> 31:06.182 international collabouration. We need to 31:06.202 --> 31:10.727 set in Europe far more of a joint approach 31:11.047 --> 31:14.570 to asylum seekers to reflect best practice 31:15.411 --> 31:17.872 rather than each country doing its own thing. 31:17.892 --> 31:19.512 I think we'll do better if we work together 31:19.532 --> 31:22.193 and have a more agreed approach, made more 31:22.253 --> 31:24.294 difficult by the extreme right-wing parties 31:24.334 --> 31:26.155 to which I referred earlier. Nevertheless, 31:26.175 --> 31:28.075 I think the ideal aim would be that Europe 31:28.095 --> 31:32.237 should have a sensible and, as much as possible, 31:32.257 --> 31:35.258 an agreed approach consistent with the European 31:35.318 --> 31:37.499 Convention on Human Rights and consistent 31:37.519 --> 31:38.679 with the Geneva Convention. 31:41.000 --> 31:43.701 Just one little clarification. There was 31:43.741 --> 31:49.271 a question about Should the government abandon 31:49.291 --> 31:52.053 the institutional model in favor of community-led 31:52.213 --> 31:55.676 approaches such as volunteer-hosted housing 31:55.836 --> 32:00.199 and immediate work permits so that diversity 32:00.219 --> 32:02.401 becomes a source of strength rather than 32:02.421 --> 32:06.724 division? Could you talk a little bit about 32:07.025 --> 32:09.286 volunteer-hosted housing? Because I know 32:09.306 --> 32:14.230 you're a patron of a small charity, Refugees 32:14.430 --> 32:20.600 at Home. that does something to that effect? 32:22.923 --> 32:26.848 I think there is a scheme which the present 32:26.868 --> 32:28.449 government is keen on, which is good, which 32:28.509 --> 32:31.613 is community sponsorship, where at a local 32:31.693 --> 32:37.029 level communities will sponsor asylum seekers, 32:37.049 --> 32:41.992 refugees, families particularly, sponsor 32:42.032 --> 32:44.033 them and give them local support. It's a 32:44.073 --> 32:46.075 good model, but unfortunately with housing 32:46.115 --> 32:49.917 shortages and so on, it's not too easy to 32:49.957 --> 32:54.700 achieve. But certainly I'm looking both at 32:54.740 --> 32:58.343 a humane, compassionate policy by central 32:58.383 --> 33:01.525 government, as well as humane and compassionate 33:01.545 --> 33:03.567 responses locally. People have been put in 33:03.607 --> 33:07.811 hotels because, frankly, the backlog of decisions 33:07.871 --> 33:09.812 about asylum claims means there are people 33:09.852 --> 33:11.734 whose asylum claims have not yet been settled. 33:12.592 --> 33:14.373 that should happen quicker. But the government 33:14.413 --> 33:16.374 is trying to speed up on that, and that should 33:16.394 --> 33:18.135 happen quicker. Then we won't have people 33:18.155 --> 33:19.957 in hotels, and people can go into the local 33:19.997 --> 33:21.758 communities, which is where they will get 33:22.058 --> 33:25.060 the best support. So the answer is, I hope 33:25.120 --> 33:27.081 that the government's policy of getting people 33:27.141 --> 33:29.382 out of hotels will happen very soon. But 33:29.522 --> 33:31.263 there is a difficulty. If 1,800 people arrive 33:31.624 --> 33:36.866 in a boat in Dover, from France, they've 33:36.886 --> 33:39.207 got to be put somewhere. They can't just 33:39.507 --> 33:42.609 be left in the street. And it's better that 33:42.649 --> 33:44.189 they're in hotels, that they're nowhere. 33:44.549 --> 33:46.430 But in anything other than the short term, 33:46.770 --> 33:49.271 the policy should, I believe, be not to have 33:49.291 --> 33:51.872 people in hotels, to have a quicker determination 33:51.912 --> 33:54.653 of asylum claims, and give them a chance 33:54.693 --> 33:57.734 to, as it were, make their way in local communities. 34:00.295 --> 34:03.316 Lord Aftabs, thank you very much for being 34:03.336 --> 34:04.717 a guest on this podcast. 34:06.957 --> 34:09.158 Well, thank you for inviting me. What are 34:09.178 --> 34:10.458 you going to do with the podcast? 34:11.758 --> 34:14.479 Well, it's going to be published and we share 34:14.519 --> 34:18.540 it widely and see the kind of response we 34:18.580 --> 34:21.241 get because this year's theme is citizenship 34:21.481 --> 34:22.822 and civil society. 34:24.282 --> 34:26.523 Okay, well, thank you for letting me take 34:26.563 --> 34:28.643 part in this. I appreciate your questions 34:30.304 --> 34:32.404 and it's an honour to be asked to take part 34:32.464 --> 34:34.305 in this. Thank you. Thank you. 34:35.373 --> 34:38.275 This podcast was brought to you by the Kamugasa 34:38.295 --> 34:40.457 Challenge in partnership with Democracy in 34:40.577 --> 34:44.860 Africa. Democracy in Africa is a platform 34:44.920 --> 34:47.762 dedicated to building a bridge between academics, 34:48.122 --> 34:51.385 policymakers, practitioners, and citizens. 34:53.046 --> 34:55.668 The second episode in the Citizenship and 34:55.728 --> 35:00.491 Civil Society series is entitled, From Fragmentation 35:00.571 --> 35:03.749 to Flourishing, Rebuilding Democracy Through 35:03.889 --> 35:07.572 Engaged Citizenship and Civil Society. An 35:07.652 --> 35:11.035 interview with Liz Webster, founder and leading 35:11.115 --> 35:14.938 voice behind Save British Farming, also known 35:15.018 --> 35:19.161 as Save British Food, a grassroots movement 35:19.241 --> 35:21.563 championing the interests of UK farmers, 35:22.044 --> 35:24.906 consumers, and the wider food production 35:25.026 --> 35:29.129 industry. The podcast will go live on April 35:29.149 --> 35:33.998 13th, 2026. If you enjoyed this podcast, 35:34.078 --> 35:36.500 please click the share button in your app 35:36.540 --> 35:39.902 to send this episode to a friend. Thank you 35:40.082 --> 35:42.003 very much for taking the time to listen to 35:42.043 --> 35:48.308 this podcast. Until next time, goodbye. Thank 35:48.368 --> 35:48.488 you.