WEBVTT 00:02.039 --> 00:05.920 Hello, welcome back to Conversations with 00:06.020 --> 00:10.302 Stephen Kamugasa. This is the sixth and final 00:10.422 --> 00:16.324 episode in our 2025 Leadership Series. Today's 00:16.384 --> 00:20.305 guest is Lord Peter Hain, a British politician 00:20.365 --> 00:22.646 who served as Secretary of State for Northern 00:22.846 --> 00:25.067 Ireland from 2005 to 2007, Secretary of State 00:25.087 --> 01:12.690 for Work and Pensions, from 2007 to 2008, 00:30.427 --> 00:35.691 and twice as Secretary of State for Wales 00:36.352 --> 01:12.690 from 2002 to 2008 and from 2009 to 2010. 00:42.837 --> 00:47.140 Peter is a prolific author of 22 books and 00:47.200 --> 00:50.662 contributes to academia, teaching at Gibbs 00:50.942 --> 00:54.345 and Stellenbosch Business Schools. His most 00:54.405 --> 00:58.360 recent book is The Pretoria Boy, The Story 00:58.960 --> 01:02.002 of South Africa's Public Enemy, Number One. 01:03.523 --> 01:07.186 In this episode, we discuss the topic, leadership 01:07.927 --> 01:11.229 in a multipolar new world order. Lord Peter 01:11.249 --> 01:12.690 Hain, welcome. 01:13.871 --> 01:15.472 Thank you, Stephen. Good to be with you. 01:17.194 --> 01:21.077 Your book, The Pretoria Boy, details your 01:21.197 --> 01:23.739 upbringing in Pretoria in the 1950s and 60s. 01:26.240 --> 01:29.282 where your parents were vocal and apartheid 01:29.462 --> 01:33.465 activists, leading to their arrests, harassment, 01:33.525 --> 01:36.286 and ultimately, the family's forced exile 01:36.326 --> 01:41.570 to London in 1966. You recount how, as a 01:41.790 --> 01:45.932 teenager in the UK, you became public enemy 01:45.972 --> 01:49.555 number one in the South African media for 01:49.695 --> 01:52.517 organizing militant protests against all 01:52.617 --> 01:56.139 white South African sports tours. significantly 01:56.199 --> 01:58.360 contributing to the international sports 01:58.440 --> 02:02.541 boycott against apartheid. You described 02:02.641 --> 02:06.082 narrowly escaping jail for these actions 02:06.302 --> 02:10.783 and being framed for a bank theft by an apartheid 02:10.863 --> 02:15.124 security agent. But first, Peter, can you 02:15.164 --> 02:17.764 please share some insights about your childhood? 02:18.825 --> 02:21.165 How has your childhood experience influenced 02:21.205 --> 02:25.350 your appreciation of life as an adult? enabling 02:25.390 --> 02:28.831 you to become such a powerful and influential 02:28.951 --> 02:29.531 politician? 02:30.591 --> 02:33.052 Well, whether I'm a powerful or influential 02:33.132 --> 02:36.413 politician is up to you and others to assess, 02:36.553 --> 02:41.254 not me. But I was the child of two very brave 02:41.494 --> 02:45.161 young white anti-apartheid activists living 02:45.201 --> 02:47.543 in Pretoria at the time, in the late 50s 02:47.563 --> 02:51.006 and early 60s, becoming increasingly involved 02:51.106 --> 02:53.949 in the anti-apartheid battle, working alongside 02:54.009 --> 02:56.351 Nelson Mandela and many of his disciples. 02:57.212 --> 03:00.955 And that led, in the case of my mother, Adelaine 03:00.995 --> 03:06.360 Hain, first of all to her being warned, then 03:06.480 --> 03:11.104 jailed for two weeks, along with my father, 03:11.124 --> 03:15.872 for supporting Mandela's defiance campaign, 03:15.972 --> 03:19.874 his appeal to workers, to black workers, 03:19.934 --> 03:22.575 to stay at home instead of coming into the 03:22.615 --> 03:25.276 white cities around which their settlements 03:25.316 --> 03:28.677 were ringed to work and to support and to 03:29.218 --> 03:32.039 clean and to garden and all those kind of 03:32.099 --> 03:35.981 jobs that whites required of blacks, paying 03:36.101 --> 03:40.319 very menial wages. So they were distributing 03:40.359 --> 03:42.400 leaflets, preparing leaflets when they were 03:42.420 --> 03:45.703 arrested to support Mandela's campaign, his 03:45.743 --> 03:47.965 stay-at-home campaign. It was like a strike 03:48.005 --> 03:50.207 of black workers, if you like, to try and 03:50.247 --> 03:52.649 bring an end to apartheid. And they were 03:52.669 --> 03:58.995 then jailed. That was 1961. In 1963, my mother 03:59.015 --> 04:01.457 was issued with a banning order. A banning 04:01.557 --> 04:03.578 order meant you couldn't take part in political 04:03.618 --> 04:06.201 activity. You couldn't meet more than one 04:06.241 --> 04:08.670 other person at a time. I can give you an 04:08.730 --> 04:11.332 example of how that affected her. It also 04:11.392 --> 04:14.935 contained a clause amongst the many hundreds 04:14.996 --> 04:17.278 of them, restricting her in all sorts of 04:17.338 --> 04:20.681 ways, banning her from talking to another 04:20.821 --> 04:24.044 banned person. So when they banned my dad 04:24.084 --> 04:26.266 a year later, this presented the government 04:26.326 --> 04:28.328 with a dilemma and an embarrassment they'd 04:28.348 --> 04:30.700 never faced before. and they had to give 04:30.720 --> 04:33.102 them special permission to talk to one other 04:33.162 --> 04:36.304 person who is banned on the planet, namely 04:36.944 --> 04:39.105 each other as husband and wife. So there 04:39.125 --> 04:41.707 were these kind of absurdities to apartheid, 04:41.847 --> 04:45.349 but that was just part of life, as well as 04:45.749 --> 04:49.652 dreadful oppression and a terribly violent 04:49.772 --> 04:53.514 security apparatus that killed, tortured, 04:54.324 --> 04:56.666 imprisoned people on an arbitrary basis. 04:57.367 --> 05:00.510 The other banning restriction, as I mentioned, 05:00.530 --> 05:05.475 that stopped her communicating with more 05:05.515 --> 05:07.537 than one other person, so she could only 05:07.637 --> 05:10.420 mix with one other person at a time, meant 05:10.460 --> 05:12.822 that when we held diplomatic parties, whereas 05:12.902 --> 05:15.044 previously my mother and father had been 05:15.084 --> 05:17.572 in the living room, introducing the American 05:17.632 --> 05:19.894 ambassador, the French ambassador, the British 05:19.974 --> 05:22.756 ambassador and so on to black activists in 05:22.776 --> 05:24.938 the main that they hadn't had a chance to 05:24.958 --> 05:30.182 talk to. When it came to coping with her 05:30.242 --> 05:32.063 banning order she had to sit in the kitchen 05:32.884 --> 05:35.656 on her own as I brought the ambassadors one 05:35.736 --> 05:38.917 by one, as a schoolboy at the time, to see 05:38.977 --> 05:41.318 her sitting on her own. She could meet them 05:41.418 --> 05:44.018 one by one. If she stepped next door into 05:44.058 --> 05:45.859 the living room, she'd be contravening her 05:45.919 --> 05:48.439 banning order and could be arrested on the 05:48.499 --> 05:50.580 spot because they had had informers anywhere, 05:51.320 --> 05:53.281 because that would be meeting more than one 05:53.341 --> 05:55.661 other ambassador at a time. So there were 05:55.701 --> 05:58.162 these restrictions on her that were pretty 05:58.322 --> 05:58.842 overwhelming. 06:00.742 --> 06:03.665 The Pretoria Boy also covers your subsequent 06:03.705 --> 06:05.967 distinguished political career in Britain, 06:06.948 --> 06:10.652 serving as an MP and a senior cabinet minister 06:10.952 --> 06:14.976 in Labour governments. A powerful theme throughout 06:15.036 --> 06:17.158 the book is your continued commitment to 06:17.218 --> 06:21.102 justice, exemplified by your recent use of 06:21.182 --> 07:05.393 parliamentary privilege in 2017 to 2018. 06:25.148 --> 06:28.409 to expose widespread money laundering and 06:28.489 --> 06:31.450 corruption under the then South African President 06:31.590 --> 06:35.292 Jacob Zuma, which played a role in Zuma's 06:35.332 --> 06:39.113 downfall. The book concludes with your reflections 06:39.353 --> 06:42.294 on South Africa's future, and you call for 06:42.314 --> 06:44.395 the country to return to Nelson Mandela's 06:44.455 --> 06:49.337 vision and integrity. Could you elaborate 06:49.797 --> 06:52.923 on the process and challenges you faced in 06:53.003 --> 06:55.585 gathering and presenting that information. 06:56.406 --> 06:59.608 And what lessons do you think other nations 06:59.868 --> 07:02.330 or individuals can draw from your experience 07:02.991 --> 07:05.393 in combating high-level corruption? 07:05.413 --> 07:09.076 Well, this is a huge topic, Stephen, and 07:09.116 --> 07:13.059 a big threat to everybody, and indeed the 07:13.860 --> 07:17.323 good maintenance of international relations. 07:18.442 --> 07:21.585 I was asked in 2017 whilst on a teaching 07:22.085 --> 07:25.348 visit to Johannesburg, the commercial capital 07:25.369 --> 07:28.712 of South Africa, I was asked by senior African 07:28.772 --> 07:31.294 National Congress figures who wanted to get 07:31.354 --> 07:34.357 rid of Jacob Zuma and restore the party to 07:34.397 --> 07:38.200 some kind of Mandela-like normality rather 07:38.220 --> 07:40.262 than the corrupt vehicle that it had become, 07:41.884 --> 07:44.850 to expose the international complicity What 07:44.890 --> 07:46.972 had happened inside the country is brave 07:47.032 --> 07:49.494 investigative journalists had exposed the 07:49.534 --> 07:51.816 terrible corruption and looting that had 07:51.836 --> 07:54.838 been going on, led by President Zuma from 07:54.878 --> 07:58.781 the very top and his family, in cohorts with 07:59.102 --> 08:01.103 what were known as the Gupta Brothers, three 08:01.844 --> 08:04.286 Indian business people who'd come to South 08:04.346 --> 08:06.807 Africa and settled there. and indulged in 08:06.867 --> 08:11.069 all sorts of commercial trickery to loot 08:11.089 --> 08:14.350 the country and getting fake contracts for 08:14.390 --> 08:16.891 public work that they never carried out but 08:16.931 --> 08:20.513 were paid for and so on. So I was asked to 08:20.553 --> 08:22.713 expose that and, as you mentioned, did so 08:23.234 --> 08:25.494 using parliamentary privilege. I might add 08:25.534 --> 08:30.636 that I got a shed load of emails from white 08:30.876 --> 08:33.037 South Africans saying, well done, but I hated 08:33.057 --> 08:35.858 you for stopping the Springboks. the all-white 08:35.898 --> 08:39.482 spingbox. This is in 1969-70 when we were 08:39.502 --> 08:41.424 running on the pitch and stopping them playing 08:41.884 --> 08:44.647 and they never played again until after Mandela 08:44.707 --> 08:47.249 became president and the transition from 08:47.290 --> 08:52.175 apartheid to democracy had begun. But I replied 08:52.235 --> 08:55.198 to them saying well thank you but the values 08:55.258 --> 08:58.385 that propelled me to expose the corruption 08:58.445 --> 09:00.726 and looting in the country, which you approve 09:00.766 --> 09:03.028 of, and exactly the same values propelled 09:03.068 --> 09:05.869 me to fight apartheid. And those were the 09:05.909 --> 09:07.790 values that I learned from my parents, if 09:07.830 --> 09:10.111 you go back to your original question. In 09:10.151 --> 09:12.712 a sense, in my DNA, I was very proud of them. 09:13.353 --> 09:15.514 I supported them as a boy in various ways. 09:16.175 --> 09:19.859 And then I began to plow my own furrow, as 09:19.899 --> 09:22.121 it were, in coming up with a sports campaign. 09:22.181 --> 09:25.464 So ideas and the militant disruption of them 09:25.524 --> 09:29.268 in particular. So the point is that if we're 09:29.288 --> 09:32.151 going to get to come to your question, to 09:32.191 --> 09:34.713 a world in which there is no money laundering, 09:35.234 --> 09:37.936 or at least the curbs on it are significantly 09:37.996 --> 09:41.451 improved, and the corruption also restricted. 09:41.832 --> 09:44.335 We would have to take, if I could use the 09:44.355 --> 09:46.097 phrase, a hell of a lot of effort to get 09:46.177 --> 09:49.241 there because virtually every country is 09:49.301 --> 09:51.644 embroiled in this. You take South Africa's 09:51.684 --> 09:54.347 case under Zuma. A lot of critics were saying, 09:54.407 --> 09:56.249 well, you know, what do you expect in a black 09:56.309 --> 09:59.552 African country? And my answer was, and I 09:59.592 --> 10:03.073 developed this understanding in being given 10:03.113 --> 10:06.634 the evidence, because I didn't have it myself, 10:07.274 --> 10:09.475 in order to expose under parliamentary privilege, 10:09.495 --> 10:11.996 where I couldn't be sued by anybody, what 10:12.036 --> 10:15.697 was going on. I had these detailed draft 10:15.737 --> 10:17.998 speeches provided for me from a deep throat 10:18.058 --> 10:21.119 source right inside the state, and maybe 10:21.199 --> 10:23.820 sources. I've never talked about who he or 10:25.380 --> 10:28.829 she was or who they were. But it was gold 10:28.869 --> 10:30.791 dust. And when you're using parliamentary 10:30.811 --> 10:32.113 privilege, you've got to be responsible. 10:32.133 --> 10:34.275 You've got to be sure it's accurate. And 10:34.295 --> 10:36.417 you've got to be sure you're acting responsibly 10:36.578 --> 10:39.120 and honestly. And having satisfied myself 10:39.240 --> 10:41.783 on all those things, I then did it. But it 10:41.803 --> 10:44.566 brought me to an understanding that this 10:44.626 --> 10:48.130 was just one country in the middle of a vast 10:48.999 --> 10:52.061 money laundering corruption racket that operates 10:52.141 --> 10:54.543 right across the world. It involves trillions, 10:55.384 --> 10:58.747 trillions of dollars, US dollars, each year 10:59.347 --> 11:01.289 being looted and moved around the world, 11:01.829 --> 11:04.951 often stolen from countries like in Africa, 11:05.011 --> 11:08.194 in the deep South, in the global South, and 11:08.254 --> 11:10.916 then invested in the global North. And when 11:10.956 --> 11:13.398 I looked into it, and I recently published 11:13.458 --> 11:15.259 a book called Liberation and Corruption, 11:15.319 --> 11:17.681 Why Freedom Movements Fail, which seeks to 11:17.761 --> 11:22.274 understand the betrayal of the freedom struggles 11:22.314 --> 11:25.275 that people like me supported, as waged by 11:25.315 --> 11:27.216 the African National Congress, for example, 11:27.276 --> 11:30.017 or the Sandinistas in Nicaragua, to then 11:30.137 --> 11:32.859 find you get corrupt regimes heading those 11:32.959 --> 11:36.360 former admired and supported freedom movements. 11:36.941 --> 11:39.662 And what I found was that actually, there 11:39.722 --> 11:41.723 are global networks, including in London, 11:42.617 --> 11:46.080 including in the UK overseas territories, 11:46.621 --> 11:50.825 including in Hong Kong. So the Chinese government 11:50.925 --> 11:53.688 is implicated. A lot of the money was moved 11:53.768 --> 11:56.130 out through Baroda Bank from South Africa 11:56.250 --> 11:59.573 by the Guptas. That's a partly state, Indian 11:59.653 --> 12:02.556 state-owned bank. So they're implicated. 12:03.337 --> 12:05.619 Just about every country, the United Arab 12:05.739 --> 12:08.788 Emirates, for example, is implicated in all 12:08.828 --> 12:10.991 of this as well, because Dubai is one of 12:11.011 --> 12:13.234 the principal money laundering centers of 12:13.274 --> 12:17.779 the world. A lot of the lucid money stolen 12:17.859 --> 12:20.062 by the Zumas and the Guptas went through 12:20.082 --> 12:23.460 Dubai, as well as through Hong Kong. And 12:23.520 --> 12:26.002 a lot of it ended up through shell companies, 12:26.042 --> 12:28.303 that's to say completely front companies 12:28.344 --> 12:31.005 that hide their real owners like the Guptas 12:31.105 --> 12:33.687 or the Zumas in this case, but there are 12:33.707 --> 12:36.109 many other examples. So you've got this going 12:36.189 --> 12:39.151 on, this racket going on all the time. And 12:39.171 --> 12:41.452 our international financial system, the banks 12:41.953 --> 12:45.235 are complicit, and a lot of our global corporates 12:45.255 --> 12:47.697 are complicit. You take, for example, one 12:47.737 --> 12:50.579 of the global corporates that I named in 12:50.839 --> 12:54.762 Parliament, Bain& Company. They personally 12:54.842 --> 12:59.403 took advice. Their South African arm linked 12:59.423 --> 13:02.584 to their London oversight managers and their 13:02.644 --> 13:04.564 Boston headquartered management. So this 13:04.624 --> 13:06.645 is not a South African rogue element that 13:06.685 --> 13:10.546 they've tried to pretend, but a part of their 13:10.586 --> 13:13.566 global operation. They market themselves 13:13.646 --> 13:15.767 as a reputable management consultant company. 13:16.147 --> 13:20.088 But Bain& Co met Zuma in his private residence 13:20.168 --> 13:24.065 on at least 17 occasions uh... doing which 13:24.125 --> 13:26.646 they were asked to advise and this is really 13:26.686 --> 13:28.508 important to understand they were asked to 13:28.568 --> 13:32.330 advise how to disable the country's tax agency 13:33.331 --> 13:35.532 the south african revenue service which they 13:35.572 --> 13:38.774 did and it was the badly disabled and a lot 13:38.854 --> 13:41.896 of the cronies of the people doing the looting 13:42.217 --> 13:46.019 got away with uh... not paying taxes to evading 13:46.339 --> 13:49.922 taxes or avoiding them or both uh... illegally 13:50.382 --> 13:54.771 because SARS, the South African Revenue Service, 13:54.831 --> 13:56.972 its tax agency, was completely disabled. 13:57.472 --> 14:00.835 People put in to run it who were willfully 14:02.516 --> 14:05.838 ignoring the tax evasion that was going on 14:06.659 --> 14:09.420 and the smuggling and so on of tobacco and 14:10.681 --> 14:13.763 other illegal activities. So that's an example 14:13.823 --> 14:17.886 of a global corporate, originally and still 14:18.026 --> 14:20.067 headquartered in the United States, operating 14:20.108 --> 14:23.468 right across the world, being part of this 14:23.528 --> 14:28.470 picture. So you see now that the corruption 14:28.510 --> 14:32.071 in South Africa was not isolated to a few 14:32.111 --> 14:36.532 bad guys, though they were doing the looting, 14:36.853 --> 14:39.733 though they did, but actually supported by 14:39.773 --> 14:43.129 a global financial system. and global, some 14:43.149 --> 14:45.651 of them are household names like Baden Company 14:45.731 --> 14:51.695 or KPMG or McKinsey and banks in our high 14:51.735 --> 14:54.657 streets like HSBC and international banks 14:54.717 --> 14:56.379 like Standard Chartered and Baroda Bank. 14:56.399 --> 14:58.881 So you're only going to tackle this problem 14:59.141 --> 15:01.662 if you get international agreement. from 15:01.742 --> 15:04.623 London, from Washington, from Beijing, from 15:04.703 --> 15:08.044 Delhi, from Moscow, which is unlikely under 15:08.124 --> 15:10.425 President Putin since he deeply corrupt himself, 15:11.165 --> 15:13.966 from the United Arab Emirates to stop what's 15:13.986 --> 15:18.327 going on in Dubai, and in the case of London, 15:18.367 --> 15:23.708 to stop London being a main honeypot for 15:24.509 --> 15:28.370 kleptocrats who loot their countries to buy 15:28.430 --> 15:32.686 property in places like Kensington and Westminster 15:32.746 --> 15:36.508 and so on, and around Hyde Park pay millions 15:36.588 --> 15:38.989 and millions of pounds sterling of hard-earned 15:39.069 --> 15:41.770 taxpayers' money in African countries, for 15:41.810 --> 15:47.072 example, and then invested in the UK. And 15:47.372 --> 15:49.412 just to finish this point, when I looked 15:49.452 --> 15:52.974 at the figures, I found that the money looted, 15:53.034 --> 15:55.415 for example, the African continent, which 15:55.495 --> 15:58.836 is huge, was bigger than the overseas aid 15:59.724 --> 16:01.586 that the rich countries in the global north 16:01.646 --> 16:03.828 say, you know, pride themselves as giving, 16:05.109 --> 16:07.631 no longer President Trump's America, to help 16:08.211 --> 16:10.854 poorer countries and poorer people. Actually, 16:11.434 --> 16:13.356 the money looted from those countries and 16:13.396 --> 16:19.181 those very same citizens outweighs massively 16:19.561 --> 16:23.004 the money that's actually given to them in 16:23.064 --> 16:23.644 overseas aid. 16:26.377 --> 16:29.479 What specific actions or shifts do you believe 16:29.499 --> 16:32.622 are most critical for South Africa to return 16:32.642 --> 16:35.724 to Nelson Mandela's vision and integrity 16:36.545 --> 16:39.908 in the current political and economic climate? 16:40.788 --> 16:43.670 Well, many people say inside the country 16:43.710 --> 16:45.772 that the African National Congress is now 16:46.092 --> 16:49.008 so badly corrupted from top to bottom. at 16:49.048 --> 16:51.049 local, municipal level, provincial level, 16:51.249 --> 16:53.709 and national level, that it's impossible 16:53.790 --> 16:57.671 for it to return to its original Mandela. 16:58.411 --> 17:01.032 It's not just Mandela, but Oliver Tambo was 17:01.072 --> 17:04.673 very important in this. Other leaders like 17:04.693 --> 17:07.434 Walter Sisulu and Ahmed Kathrada and others. 17:08.234 --> 17:10.535 It was a collective leadership of the ANC 17:10.595 --> 17:15.716 which gave such strong, visionary social 17:15.756 --> 17:21.104 justice and human rights orientated ideas 17:21.545 --> 17:23.606 and policies for the rest of the world to 17:23.666 --> 17:27.128 admire and many of us to follow. To return 17:27.188 --> 17:29.890 to that is going to be very hard because 17:29.910 --> 17:31.871 it's like, you know, it's like cancer in 17:31.911 --> 17:33.752 your body. Once it's in there, it's really 17:33.812 --> 17:36.834 difficult to get out. And South Africa sadly 17:36.854 --> 17:39.016 has experienced a form of corruption that 17:39.056 --> 17:42.578 goes from daily life, a police officer stopping 17:42.618 --> 17:45.926 you by the side of the road as you drive 17:45.986 --> 17:49.448 past on a spurious traffic offense and ask 17:49.468 --> 17:51.809 you to pay money to let you go, even though 17:51.849 --> 17:56.511 you've done nothing wrong. You need a permit 17:56.631 --> 18:00.752 for your Zimbabwean migrant worker to continue 18:00.792 --> 18:03.893 working. You have to pay a bribe to get that 18:03.954 --> 18:06.575 permit. You even have to pay a bribe, I found 18:06.695 --> 18:11.287 out, to take a driving test. not to pass 18:11.347 --> 18:14.208 that driving test, but to even begin to take 18:14.288 --> 18:17.791 it, to bribe the instructor, who then assesses 18:17.811 --> 18:19.392 whether you pass it or not and are able to 18:19.432 --> 18:22.834 drive a car. So it's from the bottom up, 18:23.775 --> 18:28.118 right the way to the episode around the Zumas 18:28.358 --> 18:31.280 and Guptas. And sadly, there are still people, 18:31.500 --> 18:34.962 despite President Ramaphosa's best intentions, 18:35.002 --> 18:37.604 still people in the cabinet who are deeply 18:37.924 --> 18:41.321 complicit in all of this. Now, having said 18:41.381 --> 18:44.744 that, the ANC, to its great credit, did accept 18:45.705 --> 18:48.467 its electoral defeat at the last election, 18:48.787 --> 18:54.612 I think last year in 2024, did accept that 18:54.632 --> 18:56.873 it was defeated for the first time, got less 18:56.914 --> 19:00.056 than 50% of the votes, and it's gone into 19:00.136 --> 19:02.378 a government of national unity. Now, a lot 19:02.418 --> 19:04.840 of other countries, in Africa in particular, 19:05.609 --> 19:07.889 but elsewhere in the world, Russia being 19:07.909 --> 19:12.350 an example, don't accept defeat. They don't 19:12.730 --> 19:15.751 allow a vigorous opposition party, whatever 19:15.851 --> 19:18.912 support it may enjoy. That's typically true 19:18.952 --> 19:22.192 of South Africa's neighbor Zimbabwe. The 19:22.232 --> 19:24.673 government is voted out, and the government 19:24.693 --> 19:27.513 just rigs the election results to stay in 19:27.574 --> 19:32.092 power. And sadly, that's all too typical 19:32.132 --> 19:33.933 of countries elsewhere. So to get credit, 19:34.313 --> 19:38.195 the ANC did accept its defeat and went into 19:38.235 --> 19:39.775 a government of national unity. Now that 19:39.875 --> 19:43.977 may trigger a process, either of the corrupt 19:44.398 --> 19:47.839 influences of the ANC getting control of 19:47.879 --> 19:52.442 the party again after President Ramaphosa 19:52.502 --> 19:54.643 stands down and his term of office comes 19:54.683 --> 19:57.424 to an end. Either that happens, in which 19:57.464 --> 20:01.528 case I think the ANC is dead. or elements 20:01.648 --> 20:03.648 who want to return it to its vision, the 20:03.668 --> 20:07.349 Mandela, Tambo, Sisulu vision, then if they 20:07.429 --> 20:10.610 get ascendancy, then I think the party can 20:10.650 --> 20:13.091 be pulled back round. But the record of liberation 20:13.151 --> 20:16.312 movements, if you study it as I have, and 20:18.193 --> 20:20.434 describe and analyze it in a recent book, 20:20.474 --> 20:22.154 Liberation and Corruption, that I mentioned, 20:22.834 --> 20:25.215 a more recent book than a Pretoria boy, then 20:26.315 --> 20:29.567 the record is not encouraging. Virtually 20:29.727 --> 20:32.548 every liberation or independence movement 20:32.568 --> 20:35.868 has lost power because it became corrupt, 20:36.568 --> 20:40.509 from India to South Africa to Nicaragua, 20:41.629 --> 20:42.469 right across the world. 20:44.870 --> 20:47.670 South Africa's legal challenge against Israel 20:48.470 --> 20:50.251 at the International Court of Justice, the 20:50.431 --> 20:54.471 ICJ, regarding Gaza has been widely viewed 20:54.792 --> 20:58.352 as an exercise of moral leadership. leveraging 20:58.372 --> 21:02.055 the country's own apartheid history. In the 21:02.095 --> 21:05.058 context of a new multipolar world order, 21:05.999 --> 21:08.621 do you believe this aggressive human rights 21:08.721 --> 21:11.884 stance has genuinely restored South Africa's 21:11.984 --> 21:15.568 moral capital and its role as a leader of 21:15.588 --> 21:20.252 the global South? Or is its diplomatic position 21:20.372 --> 21:22.854 being undermined by the current domestic 21:22.934 --> 21:26.329 failures you often critique, such as corruption 21:26.910 --> 21:27.790 and state capture? 21:28.811 --> 21:32.353 Well, I do think it's badly damaged by corruption. 21:32.913 --> 21:36.836 And whereas it was a global hero, an iconic 21:37.676 --> 21:42.339 country under Nelson Mandela, it fell from 21:42.419 --> 21:46.021 global hero to near global zero under President 21:46.041 --> 21:48.703 Zuma. There's a lot of good things about 21:48.743 --> 21:50.884 the country. I visited it often. It's got 21:50.904 --> 21:53.426 a great constitution, independent judiciary, 21:54.392 --> 21:57.673 an independent, vigorously critical media, 21:58.613 --> 22:01.074 opposition parties that are free to organize, 22:02.054 --> 22:05.195 and most important, an active, vigorously 22:05.655 --> 22:09.076 critical and independent civil society. Now 22:09.136 --> 22:12.297 those are all elements often not present 22:12.637 --> 22:15.918 in countries which have corrupt kleptocracies. 22:15.938 --> 22:22.821 I think of Russia, I think of Zimbabwe, Sorry, 22:22.882 --> 22:28.748 I just need to take a little sip. I think 22:28.768 --> 22:32.132 of lots of other countries, amongst them 22:32.172 --> 22:35.956 Zimbabwe, Russia, and elsewhere that do not 22:36.016 --> 22:40.249 have these independent agencies and that 22:40.369 --> 22:43.713 is in South Africa's to its credit and the 22:43.873 --> 22:46.997 original vision of the Mandela Tambo led 22:47.398 --> 22:49.981 African National Congress and the transition 22:50.021 --> 22:52.764 from democracy and those institutions and 22:52.844 --> 22:54.987 agencies that were encouraged and promoted 22:55.747 --> 23:01.083 do provide countervailing power bases to 23:02.103 --> 23:08.046 a corrupt or over-autocratic elite. But your 23:08.086 --> 23:10.326 question is, where does South Africa fit 23:10.386 --> 23:12.867 into the emerging global order? It's a complex 23:12.907 --> 23:16.255 global order because China's not a democracy, 23:16.956 --> 23:19.558 though it's going to be the superpower of 23:19.598 --> 23:23.601 the world. India under Narendra Modi has 23:23.961 --> 23:27.484 departed from the secular democratic vision 23:27.564 --> 23:32.288 of Gandhi and Nehru in India and the Congress 23:32.328 --> 23:36.051 party that they created and led to become 23:37.168 --> 23:42.690 very Islamophobic, very authoritarian. And 23:43.071 --> 23:45.492 so it's not clear where India will end up 23:45.572 --> 23:49.133 in this new global order. And then ranged 23:49.193 --> 23:51.634 against those global South countries with 23:51.694 --> 23:55.356 which South Africa is largely aligned. And 23:55.476 --> 23:58.597 that includes Russia, which under Putin is 23:58.677 --> 24:04.180 an authoritarian autocracy and a deeply corrupt 24:04.300 --> 24:08.131 one. So where South Africa positions itself, 24:08.191 --> 24:11.171 regardless of the International Court of 24:11.231 --> 24:15.613 Justice intervention to criticize Israel 24:15.693 --> 24:18.893 and indict it for crimes of genocide in Gaza 24:18.953 --> 24:21.434 and so on, I think there's a bigger question 24:21.474 --> 24:23.494 for South Africa. Where does it stand on 24:23.594 --> 24:25.975 Ukraine, for example? It says it's non-aligned. 24:26.495 --> 24:29.016 But in practice, it's aligned itself with 24:29.436 --> 24:32.337 Putin's invasion. It hadn't supported, as 24:32.397 --> 24:36.165 I would have expected, the ANC is an anti-imperialist, 24:36.245 --> 24:40.188 anti-colonial movement in its prime to have 24:40.228 --> 24:44.831 supported the Ukrainians in their resistance 24:45.472 --> 24:50.315 to invasion and imperialist aggression from 24:50.695 --> 24:54.398 Putin and for the self-determination after 24:54.518 --> 24:57.080 all. Independence and liberation struggles 24:57.100 --> 24:59.261 are either about self-determination or they're 24:59.301 --> 25:02.480 about nothing. So I think there are question 25:02.500 --> 25:04.362 marks over South Africa. Equally, I think 25:04.422 --> 25:07.384 there are, which creates the troubling contemporary 25:07.424 --> 25:09.746 situation and the breach between the Global 25:09.766 --> 25:13.189 South and the Global North, are equally troubling 25:13.229 --> 25:15.031 questions for the Global North countries 25:15.071 --> 25:18.254 that claim to be, you know, in Joe Biden, 25:18.274 --> 25:20.335 former President Joe Biden's comparison, 25:20.856 --> 25:24.639 leading the charge for democracy against 25:25.560 --> 25:29.021 autocracy. But a lot of the Global South 25:29.061 --> 25:30.781 countries say, well, you're hypocritical. 25:30.961 --> 25:35.783 You invaded Iraq in defiance of international 25:35.843 --> 25:40.924 rules. You've allowed Israel to commit crimes 25:40.984 --> 25:45.206 in Gaza and to continue to defy international 25:45.246 --> 25:47.686 law over its illegal settlements in the West 25:47.726 --> 25:50.567 Bank. You tolerate all of that. You're hypocritical. 25:51.748 --> 25:54.508 You want us to back you over Ukraine. And 25:54.769 --> 25:57.752 I agree with that personally. I support the 25:57.813 --> 26:01.254 Ukrainian self-determination struggle. But 26:01.294 --> 26:04.716 then when it comes to Iraq or Gaza, you behave 26:04.756 --> 26:07.637 differently. So I think the West, the global 26:07.677 --> 26:09.818 North has got a lot of questions to answer. 26:10.659 --> 26:13.580 And I wish South Africa had been playing 26:13.780 --> 26:15.841 and would play in the future a genuinely 26:15.921 --> 26:19.143 non-aligned role, saying we're not going 26:19.163 --> 26:23.145 to support either activities claiming to, 26:23.705 --> 26:27.304 you know, in Israel, Gaza, on the one hand, 26:29.124 --> 26:32.105 particularly of a current kind, or Russia's 26:32.165 --> 26:34.505 aggression in Ukraine. We're going to support 26:34.925 --> 26:38.486 neither of these, neither Netanyahu nor Putin, 26:39.526 --> 26:41.026 but instead of which they've compromised 26:41.066 --> 26:43.427 themselves. And I think that's troubling. 26:44.687 --> 26:46.907 Can I just pause to take another sip of water? 26:47.267 --> 26:48.728 And you had it announced, Stephen, that's 26:48.788 --> 26:49.068 okay. 26:49.648 --> 26:50.108 Yes, please. 26:52.068 --> 26:53.729 I'm afraid you've ended up with me with a 26:53.969 --> 26:59.933 rather bad cold and sore throat. Right, carry 26:59.953 --> 27:00.073 on. 27:02.354 --> 27:05.935 When we started planning this podcast in 27:02.354 --> 27:09.357 2024, our primary purpose was to focus the 27:09.437 --> 27:11.917 entire episode on your book, The Pretoria 27:11.957 --> 27:15.799 Boy. However, the world has changed significantly 27:16.999 --> 27:19.480 since the election of Donald Trump to the 27:19.520 --> 27:21.741 presidency of the United States of America 27:22.101 --> 27:26.192 in November 2024. In recognition of this 27:26.272 --> 27:29.435 change, I have taken the liberty of asking 27:29.515 --> 27:32.257 three individuals to each contribute a question 27:32.437 --> 27:36.020 or two. The first contributor is Dr. Nick 27:36.681 --> 27:40.664 Westcott. Dr. Westcott was director of the 27:40.724 --> 28:56.048 Royal African Society from 2017 to 2023. 27:45.456 --> 27:48.237 After completing his PhD in African history 27:48.777 --> 27:51.558 at Cambridge University, he embarked on a 27:51.718 --> 27:54.318 distinguished career with the Foreign and 27:54.378 --> 27:58.279 Commonwealth Office in 1982, which included 27:58.400 --> 28:02.041 serving as ambassador to Côte d'Ivoire, Burkina 28:02.081 --> 28:56.048 Faso, Togo, and Niger from 2008 to 2011. 28:08.700 --> 28:12.042 He is the author of Imperialism and Development, 28:12.482 --> 28:15.344 the East African Ground Act Scheme and its 28:15.424 --> 28:19.086 Legacy. He serves on the editorial board 28:19.226 --> 28:22.287 of African Affairs and is a member of the 28:22.348 --> 28:24.729 Chatham House and the Royal Geographical 28:24.789 --> 28:28.971 Society. Nick's questions are as follows. 28:30.092 --> 28:33.253 How can Africa best protect its interests 28:34.254 --> 28:37.578 in the new multi-polar world How can it be 28:38.179 --> 28:41.160 being the grass that gets trampled as it 28:41.220 --> 28:44.822 was in the Cold War? Should Britain ally 28:44.902 --> 28:48.764 more closely with the US, with Europe, or 28:48.804 --> 28:51.185 with Africa and the Commonwealth in the new 28:51.385 --> 28:54.467 world order? It looks increasingly difficult 28:55.107 --> 28:56.048 to do all three. 28:57.419 --> 28:59.360 It is, I fear, difficult to do all three, 28:59.400 --> 29:01.261 but if you come to the first part of your 29:01.302 --> 29:03.603 question, where should Africa stand in all 29:03.623 --> 29:07.165 of this, or the question you've asked on 29:07.225 --> 29:12.748 his behalf, it comes back to what I was saying 29:12.929 --> 29:17.211 over South Africa. I think it's better, I 29:17.571 --> 29:20.133 would prefer Africa to be genuinely non-aligned. 29:21.297 --> 29:23.778 instead of, for example, finding itself bought 29:23.838 --> 29:29.159 up by China. China is not a colonial power 29:29.179 --> 29:32.861 in the sense of occupying and conquering 29:33.401 --> 29:37.022 and land grabbing, but it is, in practice, 29:38.171 --> 29:41.032 getting hold of africa's precious mineral 29:41.072 --> 29:45.454 resources in return for uh... building bridges 29:45.534 --> 29:48.475 and roads and uh... other forms of infrastructure 29:48.995 --> 29:51.196 which it does using its own workers rather 29:51.236 --> 29:53.977 than investing in the schools and upgrading 29:53.997 --> 29:55.778 the skills of the local economy so i think 29:55.818 --> 29:58.619 there's a different form of neo-colonialism 29:58.659 --> 30:01.480 being practiced by china which i think africans 30:01.560 --> 30:03.481 need to be alive to and then there are lots 30:03.561 --> 30:06.908 of other uh... global forces meddling in 30:06.988 --> 30:09.610 africa it's not just anymore the the the 30:10.430 --> 30:13.371 the european colonial ex-colonial powers 30:13.411 --> 30:16.273 like britain and france and spain and germany 30:16.333 --> 30:19.375 and so on it's not them just meddling it's 30:19.455 --> 30:24.177 actually also russia the Wagner group president 30:24.217 --> 30:27.739 Vladimir Putin's kind of mercenary army is 30:27.819 --> 30:30.200 very active in north africa and the sahel 30:30.320 --> 30:33.849 region in particular in the Sudan conflict 30:34.689 --> 30:38.371 and in other conflicts around Africa, where 30:38.411 --> 30:42.073 it's trying to offer security to military 30:42.734 --> 30:47.556 elites in return for grabbing or getting 30:47.837 --> 30:51.499 paid in the form of gold and other precious 30:51.539 --> 30:55.721 mineral resources from those countries' mines. 30:56.809 --> 30:59.571 and deposits. And then you've got the United 30:59.651 --> 31:02.133 Arab Emirates playing a similarly shadowy 31:02.213 --> 31:05.836 role in Sudan, for example, and in other 31:05.876 --> 31:10.180 countries where you've got sort of a lot 31:11.401 --> 31:14.623 of powerful forces meddling in Africa again, 31:15.324 --> 31:17.045 but they're different ones from the past. 31:17.866 --> 31:19.687 So I think Africa has got to decide where 31:19.747 --> 31:24.911 it goes. Good governance, which is very sadly 31:25.091 --> 31:29.172 often absent, is part of the answer. If you've 31:29.192 --> 31:31.232 got good governance, you're well on the road 31:31.332 --> 31:34.513 to establishing a future in which you are 31:34.533 --> 31:36.754 not underlined. And if you take South Africa's 31:36.814 --> 31:40.175 case, and come back to my Pretoria boy memoir, 31:41.495 --> 31:43.935 there's a lot of, in the ANC's case, a lot 31:43.975 --> 31:47.736 of kind of, I think for historic nostalgic 31:48.317 --> 31:52.236 reasons that the Soviet Union countries including 31:52.297 --> 31:54.517 Russia of course supported the African National 31:54.557 --> 31:57.118 Congress because it could not get support 31:57.198 --> 31:59.778 from London and Washington and Paris and 31:59.818 --> 32:04.240 Berlin who favored effectively turned a blind 32:04.360 --> 32:07.620 eye to the apartheid regime continuing and 32:08.061 --> 32:12.850 partly because of that You know, what, for 32:12.891 --> 32:15.391 example, South Africa's government is ignoring 32:15.451 --> 32:18.773 that less than 1% of South Africa's trade 32:19.293 --> 32:23.314 is with Russia. And I suspect over 30% is 32:23.354 --> 32:26.576 with the US, Europe, UK, those traditional, 32:28.236 --> 32:30.657 if you like, interventionist colonial powers. 32:31.537 --> 32:34.759 So South Africa's got to decide where it 32:34.819 --> 32:38.448 stands. And just putting all its eggs in 32:38.468 --> 32:40.209 the Russian basket is not going to get it 32:40.290 --> 32:43.531 anywhere economically, particularly as it 32:43.591 --> 32:45.933 finds under a very, very difficult president 32:45.973 --> 32:49.815 to handle, Donald Trump, increasingly under 32:49.875 --> 32:54.798 attack, with its preferential trade relations 32:54.858 --> 33:01.522 with the US being severed potentially and 33:01.822 --> 33:05.593 other forms of support undermined. South 33:05.613 --> 33:07.454 Africa has got to decide, is it going to 33:07.495 --> 33:09.776 be, comes back to my point originally, is 33:09.816 --> 33:12.838 it going to be genuine and online, getting 33:12.898 --> 33:15.340 help and offering partnership wherever it 33:15.400 --> 33:19.863 can, but not conceding its own integrity 33:20.423 --> 33:22.485 either to Moscow or to Washington, if you 33:22.505 --> 33:27.408 like, or to Beijing or to Dubai, Abu Dhabi, 33:28.269 --> 33:32.595 but plowing its own path. and recognizing 33:32.635 --> 33:36.057 that the continent, South Africa is probably 33:36.097 --> 33:39.219 the richest country on the continent still, 33:40.639 --> 33:43.281 that the continent contains unique assets 33:43.361 --> 33:47.583 and unique riches, as well as a lot of poverty, 33:48.463 --> 33:51.785 and therefore has a lot to offer other countries 33:53.265 --> 33:56.467 in exchange for good economic relations. 33:58.680 --> 34:01.882 The second contributor is Dr. Nic Cheeseman. 34:02.703 --> 34:06.325 Dr. Cheeseman is professor of democracy at 34:06.365 --> 34:08.967 the University of Birmingham. Previously, 34:09.288 --> 34:12.230 he served as the director of African Studies 34:12.330 --> 34:15.572 Center at Oxford University, and is currently 34:15.592 --> 34:18.234 the founding director of Birmingham Center 34:18.314 --> 34:21.796 for Elections, Democracy, Accountability, 34:21.956 --> 34:26.711 and Representation leader. His recent book 34:26.931 --> 34:29.652 is, The Rise of Authoritarian Middle Powers 34:30.493 --> 34:34.535 and What It Means for World Politics, co-authored 34:34.815 --> 34:39.177 with Marie-Eve Desrosiers. Nick's question 34:39.357 --> 34:42.999 is as follows. Given the growing role of 34:43.079 --> 34:46.921 countries like Turkey, Saudi Arabia, and 34:46.941 --> 34:50.963 the UAE in Africa, for example, the civil 34:50.983 --> 34:55.335 war in Sudan, Is there a danger we focus 34:55.395 --> 34:58.537 too much on great powers such as the US, 34:58.857 --> 35:02.319 China and Russia, and not enough on these 35:02.399 --> 35:03.100 middle powers? 35:04.100 --> 35:06.102 Yes, I think he makes a very good point and 35:06.122 --> 35:08.883 he referred to those countries. Saudi Arabia 35:08.943 --> 35:13.026 is a very authoritarian country, the UAE 35:13.146 --> 35:17.348 less so, Turkey less so, but still led by 35:17.608 --> 35:22.544 powerful strongman syndromes. and intervening 35:22.644 --> 35:25.107 in a malevolent way in various fashions. 35:25.228 --> 35:28.432 Turkey's role in Syria I think is, you know, 35:28.452 --> 35:30.754 a North African country, well I'm sorry a 35:30.795 --> 35:33.818 Middle East country but not an African one, 35:34.319 --> 35:38.184 but Turkey's role in Syria is very questionable 35:39.485 --> 35:43.023 and And that goes for the other countries' 35:43.083 --> 35:46.548 role, Saudis and UAEs in Africa, and I've 35:46.588 --> 35:48.731 mentioned something about this. So I think 35:48.771 --> 35:53.257 he's right, that this new world that is emerging 35:53.557 --> 35:57.482 is multifaceted and multifaceted. multi-powered 35:57.942 --> 36:01.263 in different kind of, with centers of different 36:02.503 --> 36:04.684 sort of node points, power node points in 36:04.744 --> 36:06.844 different parts of the world. It's not as 36:06.864 --> 36:10.645 straightforward, the U.S. and London and 36:10.665 --> 36:13.425 the U.K. being in one corner and the rest 36:13.485 --> 36:15.766 being another. It's now much more complex, 36:16.566 --> 36:18.886 which is another reason, in my view, for 36:18.966 --> 36:21.087 Africa steering its own course in countries 36:21.127 --> 36:24.667 like South Africa, returning to the Mandela 36:24.687 --> 36:27.168 vision and setting out a foreign policy that's 36:27.248 --> 36:32.229 genuinely non-aligned as opposed to complicity 36:32.269 --> 36:33.269 and authoritarianism. 36:34.430 --> 36:37.170 The third and final contributor is Lord Alf 36:37.230 --> 36:40.771 Dubs. Lord Dubs is a former child refugee 36:40.871 --> 36:44.132 from Czechoslovakia, as well as a former 36:44.172 --> 36:46.272 politician with the British Labour Party 36:47.073 --> 36:50.874 and a former Member of Parliament. Lord Dubs' 36:50.914 --> 36:55.168 questions are as follows. Are you happy with 36:55.208 --> 36:58.130 the government's direction of travel as regards 36:58.490 --> 37:01.432 EU-UK relations, or would you like it to 37:01.472 --> 37:04.714 go farther? What do you think about Trump's 37:04.734 --> 37:08.916 decision to close the door on refugees from 37:08.976 --> 37:11.738 most countries, but to welcome a number of 37:11.818 --> 37:15.941 Afrikaners, some of whom have expressed anti-Semitic 37:16.001 --> 37:16.301 views? 37:17.369 --> 37:19.430 Well, Alf Dubs, Lord Dubs, is a colleague 37:19.450 --> 37:22.692 of mine in the House of Lords. And I've known 37:22.732 --> 37:25.433 him for many decades. So I have enormous 37:25.954 --> 37:27.654 admiration for him. And as you mentioned, 37:27.694 --> 37:30.436 Stephen, he was a child refugee from Nazism. 37:31.196 --> 37:33.698 So he has, you know, he carries a lot of 37:33.738 --> 37:37.260 credibility when he makes points around these 37:37.320 --> 37:42.479 kinds of issues. I think Britain, I thought 37:42.559 --> 37:45.542 Brexit in 2016 was a disaster for Britain 37:46.143 --> 37:48.905 and some of the current economic problems 37:48.945 --> 37:52.669 that we have which affected the last Conservative 37:52.709 --> 37:54.730 government and left us a terrible legacy 37:54.770 --> 37:57.213 with the Labour government and which continues 37:57.233 --> 37:59.295 to grapple with them are due to the fact 37:59.355 --> 38:03.473 that We turned our back and put up barriers 38:03.554 --> 38:06.096 against the richest single markets in the 38:06.136 --> 38:08.858 world, the European Union, much bigger than 38:09.619 --> 38:15.925 the US or China on their own. And they're 38:15.965 --> 38:17.566 on a doorstep, and we were members of the 38:17.606 --> 38:20.328 same single market, and we exited from that. 38:20.849 --> 38:22.470 So there was bound to be a cost, and there 38:22.490 --> 38:25.953 has been, an independent for independent 38:26.073 --> 38:29.935 economists now agree that at least 5% of 38:29.995 --> 38:33.696 our national wealth has been lost, permanently 38:33.736 --> 38:37.778 lost. So I do believe that closer relations 38:37.858 --> 38:40.720 with the European Union countries of a trading 38:40.800 --> 38:43.701 kind in terms of lifting customers' barriers 38:43.741 --> 38:46.339 and all sorts of other things, uh... should 38:46.399 --> 38:48.880 be uh... the student and kissed on those 38:48.940 --> 38:51.060 governments uh... promises to kissed on his 38:51.080 --> 38:53.101 labor government to spread his has already 38:53.121 --> 38:58.142 begun that that journey how far can go without 38:58.202 --> 39:00.602 another referendum to reverse the decision 39:00.722 --> 39:02.482 because i think it could well be reversed 39:03.423 --> 39:05.183 is another question and and do you want to 39:05.223 --> 39:08.784 go through the the business and turmoil and 39:09.184 --> 39:12.104 you know peaceful civil war and sometimes 39:12.185 --> 39:16.226 not so peaceful but massive uh... painful 39:16.346 --> 39:18.688 divisions that were created during the Brexit 39:18.728 --> 39:22.270 referendum by going back in fully, as some 39:22.590 --> 39:25.291 argue, and I understand why they do, but 39:25.791 --> 39:28.813 I think that's, there's enough to get on 39:28.873 --> 39:31.514 with without imposing that kind of additional 39:33.075 --> 39:36.137 stress on governance for, say, a Labour government. 39:36.197 --> 39:37.678 A Conservative government's not gonna do 39:37.738 --> 39:42.153 it. But it is a big question. And as I say, 39:42.233 --> 39:44.974 just to summarize again, we have chosen to 39:45.354 --> 39:48.936 tear ourselves away from the biggest single 39:49.817 --> 39:52.718 richest single market in the world and put 39:52.778 --> 39:55.099 up barriers against it. And this is madness. 39:56.360 --> 40:00.822 And therefore, what should happen is that 40:01.422 --> 40:04.624 those barriers are progressively reduced. 40:05.427 --> 40:06.848 and eliminate it because actually it's not 40:06.908 --> 40:08.749 in europe's interests either it's not in 40:08.769 --> 40:10.370 the european union's interests either to 40:10.410 --> 40:13.432 have barriers against uh... one of the most 40:13.813 --> 40:15.834 the biggest economies of the world the uk's 40:16.234 --> 40:18.436 whatever our current trials and tribulations 40:19.497 --> 40:22.098 there was a question about trump's decision 40:22.158 --> 40:26.001 to close the door on refugees yes sorry uh... 40:26.821 --> 40:29.143 the one exception to refugees that President 40:29.163 --> 40:31.705 Donald Trump has made is to welcome white 40:32.594 --> 40:35.216 Afrikaans speaking South Africans. I think 40:35.256 --> 40:40.179 there's quite a small group of accepted his 40:40.219 --> 40:42.400 invitation and as I understand it have not 40:42.520 --> 40:46.603 all had a happy time. But that seems to me 40:46.683 --> 40:49.325 to illustrate Donald Trump's policy perfectly. 40:49.365 --> 40:53.127 He's quite happy to have whites refugees 40:54.508 --> 40:56.890 and he paints a picture of South Africa and 40:56.930 --> 40:59.311 portrays events in South Africa. However 40:59.371 --> 41:03.003 critical I've been, He's not criticized the 41:03.043 --> 41:05.205 country for being corrupt, because there 41:05.225 --> 41:07.086 are questions around corruption to be asked 41:07.146 --> 41:10.649 of his government and the way he operates 41:10.869 --> 41:15.573 as a president, amassing enormous wealth 41:15.593 --> 41:17.275 through his business empire, through his 41:17.935 --> 41:23.200 sons and relatives in particular, in his 41:23.260 --> 41:28.616 name. I think it illustrates the hypocrisy 41:28.696 --> 41:31.416 of his refugee immigration policy, and I 41:31.436 --> 41:34.057 think Alf Dubs is quite right to ask that 41:34.117 --> 41:38.078 question and highlight it. Why white Afrikaners 41:38.118 --> 41:40.878 are given preferential access when they enjoyed 41:42.158 --> 41:45.919 unique intergenerational privileges under 41:45.959 --> 41:49.340 apartheid, I think is a question that Trump's 41:49.420 --> 41:50.360 never wanted to answer. 41:52.182 --> 41:54.624 The title of our podcast is Leadership in 41:54.664 --> 41:58.448 a Mount Polar New World Order. George Monbiot, 41:59.128 --> 42:01.511 a Guardian columnist, published a piece on 42:01.691 --> 42:06.135 April 13th, 2025, titled Right-Wing Populists 42:06.215 --> 42:08.957 Will Keep Winning, and He Will Grasp This 42:09.037 --> 42:13.021 Truth About Human Nature. He wrote the following, 42:13.061 --> 42:16.809 and I quote, Already, Trump has waged war 42:16.989 --> 42:19.550 on everything that builds prosperity and 42:19.610 --> 42:23.552 well-being, democracy, healthy ecosystems, 42:24.393 --> 42:28.014 education, health care, science, and the 42:28.214 --> 42:32.436 arts. Yet, amid the wreckage, and despite 42:32.476 --> 42:34.917 some slippage, his approval rating still 42:34.997 --> 42:40.220 holds between 43% and 48%, far higher than 42:40.300 --> 42:44.750 those of many other leaders. Why? I believe 42:44.830 --> 42:47.111 part of the answer lies in a fundamental 42:47.271 --> 42:50.491 aspect of our humanity, the urge to destroy 42:50.951 --> 42:54.372 that from which you feel excluded. He continued 42:54.392 --> 42:57.793 thus, the one thing that can stop the rise 42:57.853 --> 43:00.473 of the far right is the one thing mainstream 43:00.533 --> 43:02.914 parties are currently not prepared to deliver, 43:03.654 --> 43:06.914 greater equality. The rich should be taxed 43:07.014 --> 43:09.775 more and the revenue used to improve the 43:09.815 --> 43:12.971 lives of the poor However frantically centrist 43:13.091 --> 43:16.212 parties avoid the issue, there is no other 43:16.252 --> 43:21.954 way. Peter, if, as George Monbiot suggests, 43:22.874 --> 43:25.635 the appeal of right-wing populists stem from 43:25.655 --> 43:28.516 a human urge to destroy that from which you 43:28.556 --> 43:31.977 feel excluded, and the solution lies in greater 43:32.077 --> 43:35.528 equality, What practical steps can societies 43:35.608 --> 43:38.970 take to bridge these divides and ensure that 43:39.090 --> 43:41.872 policies truly address the root causes of 43:41.952 --> 43:45.274 disaffection rather than just the symptoms? 43:46.415 --> 43:49.697 Well, whether I have to agree with George 43:49.737 --> 43:52.859 Monbiot or not, he is on to something that 43:52.919 --> 43:56.121 I've argued myself, namely that since the 43:57.359 --> 44:00.421 global neoliberal era as it's been described, 44:00.681 --> 44:05.544 the replacement of global Keynesian post-Second 44:05.564 --> 44:09.386 World War economic management, namely expanding 44:09.446 --> 44:16.310 public services and supporting a flourishing 44:16.370 --> 44:19.864 market economy alongside. and you need skills 44:20.024 --> 44:22.046 so you need the public sector to invest in 44:22.127 --> 44:25.110 skills and research and development and so 44:25.230 --> 44:27.692 on in order for the private sector to go 44:27.772 --> 44:30.775 off and and uh... make money and create jobs 44:30.876 --> 44:33.398 and and create wealth in that way if you 44:33.498 --> 44:36.181 slash through austerity programs the public 44:36.221 --> 44:39.104 sector as has been the fashion and the rage 44:39.284 --> 44:44.389 under neoliberal economics signified, symbolized 44:44.429 --> 44:47.111 by Ronald Reagan as President of the US and 44:47.131 --> 44:49.073 Margaret Thatcher as Prime Minister of the 44:49.213 --> 44:54.698 UK. What you've seen since the 1980s is rising 44:54.738 --> 45:00.163 inequality, but more important, the squeezing 45:00.203 --> 45:03.491 of the middle. And if you look at the global 45:04.872 --> 45:07.373 economic order over recent decades, what 45:07.413 --> 45:11.755 you find is that the top 10% have done well, 45:13.476 --> 45:16.097 the top 1% have done incredibly well, and 45:16.117 --> 45:19.619 the top 0.1% stratospherically well. Now, 45:19.639 --> 45:21.860 the significant thing about those is not 45:21.940 --> 48:00.045 just the rich have got richer, but the 90%, 45:26.402 --> 45:28.603 which includes the middle classes, the middle 45:28.643 --> 45:30.624 of society, as well as those at the bottom, 45:31.280 --> 45:35.482 have either fallen behind or stayed still 45:35.562 --> 45:38.643 while the cost of living has gone up. And 45:38.723 --> 45:41.825 so that breeds massive political turbulence. 45:43.004 --> 45:45.665 And I think that explains a lot of what has 45:45.725 --> 45:47.706 happened in the world, why you get the Trumps, 45:47.806 --> 45:49.747 why you get the other ones, why you get, 45:50.788 --> 45:54.009 you had the Boris Johnson syndrome in Britain 45:54.049 --> 45:57.050 for a while. These are all kind of these 45:57.110 --> 46:01.612 sort of strong men, sort of populists. Because 46:02.033 --> 46:05.174 the traditional middle of society and the 46:05.214 --> 46:08.175 working classes of society get seriously 46:08.235 --> 46:11.637 alienated, because at least under the post-Second 46:11.657 --> 46:14.558 World War Keynesian era, most people were 46:14.598 --> 46:17.779 getting better off. The poor may be falling 46:17.819 --> 46:19.660 behind, but most people were getting better 46:19.720 --> 46:22.881 off, in the industrialized global north, 46:22.921 --> 46:27.343 that is. Deindustrialization and neoliberalism 46:27.383 --> 46:30.544 has created massive inequality right across 46:30.584 --> 46:33.885 the world, in every country. And I don't 46:33.945 --> 46:36.375 find it surprising that you've therefore 46:36.415 --> 46:39.756 had political populism signified by Trump 46:40.997 --> 46:44.138 and others across the world, and that you've 46:44.178 --> 46:47.359 had political turmoil and instability, and 46:47.379 --> 46:49.440 the centre parties of the centre-left and 46:49.460 --> 46:52.818 the centre-right that, for example, of alternated 46:52.898 --> 46:56.260 power in the US, between Democrats and Republicans, 46:56.280 --> 47:00.182 or in Europe between the conservatives and 47:00.942 --> 47:02.983 the so-called socialists, though there's 47:03.023 --> 47:06.225 not been much socialism about them in Europe, 47:06.705 --> 47:08.626 between Labour and conservatives in Britain. 47:09.793 --> 47:12.156 have found themselves, those traditional 47:12.196 --> 47:14.398 center parties that have alternated in power, 47:15.459 --> 47:17.281 under attack because they've been complicit 47:17.321 --> 47:21.726 in this global inequality and neoliberalism. 47:21.766 --> 47:24.109 So I think that's the root cause of all of 47:24.129 --> 47:27.072 this instability that is causing such havoc 47:27.152 --> 47:29.395 across the world and stopping us addressing 47:31.092 --> 47:35.034 vital threats, like the biggest one, in my 47:35.074 --> 47:38.255 view, is the global, you know, is the climate 47:38.315 --> 47:41.637 emergency. And we're seeing what it's doing 47:41.697 --> 47:44.498 in Indonesia, in countries like Bangladesh, 47:44.618 --> 47:48.000 and in the United States itself. Terrible 47:48.080 --> 47:51.761 flooding, terrible fires, extremes of weather. 47:51.801 --> 47:53.522 Global warming has never just been about 47:53.582 --> 47:57.524 temperature rise. It's actually about unleashing 47:57.584 --> 48:00.045 raging extremes of weaTher. 48:03.123 --> 48:07.507 And finally, Peter, please advise our listeners 48:08.368 --> 48:11.270 where they may find your book, The Pretoria 48:11.310 --> 48:15.073 Boy, the story of South Africa's public enemy 48:15.113 --> 48:15.634 number one. 48:16.530 --> 48:18.991 Well, it's published in South Africa by Jonathan 48:19.011 --> 48:22.092 Ball Publishers and throughout Africa. In 48:22.132 --> 48:24.133 Britain, it's been published by Icon Books 48:24.773 --> 48:27.694 that is available across the world from either 48:28.095 --> 48:32.036 source. And it was written, as I hope you 48:32.056 --> 48:34.557 found it, in a readable way. It's not a kind 48:34.597 --> 48:39.239 of heavy tone. It's a story from my childhood 48:39.319 --> 48:42.440 to my adulthood and the continuing connection 48:42.480 --> 48:46.963 to South Africa. And the story of South Africa's 48:47.043 --> 48:49.385 public enemy number one, that label, was 48:49.465 --> 48:52.347 given to me during the campaigns to stop 48:53.128 --> 48:55.850 all white races, South African rugby tours, 48:55.910 --> 49:01.014 cricket tours and other sports where whites 49:01.154 --> 49:03.536 only, such as in the Olympics, were permitted 49:03.636 --> 49:04.837 to represent their country. 49:06.418 --> 49:09.020 Lord Peter Hain, thank you very much for 49:09.081 --> 49:12.283 being a guest on this podcast. Stephen, thank 49:12.323 --> 49:14.941 you for having me. This podcast was brought 49:14.981 --> 49:17.402 to you by The Kamugasa Challenge in partnership 49:17.442 --> 49:21.124 with Democracy in Africa. Democracy in Africa 49:21.164 --> 49:23.646 is a platform dedicated to building a bridge 49:24.306 --> 49:27.908 between academics, policymakers, practitioners, 49:28.088 --> 49:32.671 and citizens. In 2026, we start a new series 49:32.891 --> 49:36.133 on citizenship and civil society. The first 49:36.273 --> 49:39.535 episode in the citizenship and civil society 49:39.615 --> 49:43.833 series is entitled, Who Are We Now? Citizenship, 49:44.313 --> 49:47.135 Civil Society, and the Multipolar World Order. 49:47.955 --> 49:50.997 An interview with Lord Alf Dubs, a British 49:51.077 --> 49:54.239 Labour life peer, a former member of parliament, 49:54.779 --> 49:57.401 and a lifelong campaigner for the rights 49:57.821 --> 50:01.043 of refugees. The podcast will go live on 50:01.143 --> 50:06.286 February 9th, 2026. If you enjoyed this podcast, 50:06.366 --> 50:08.388 please click the share button in your app 50:08.448 --> 50:11.829 to send this episode to a friend. Thank you 50:11.930 --> 50:13.855 very much for taking the time to listen to 50:13.895 --> 50:17.605 this podcast. Until next time, goodbye.