WEBVTT 00:02.346 --> 00:06.730 Hello. Welcome back to Conversations with 00:06.790 --> 00:11.595 Stephen Kamugasa. This is the fifth episode 00:12.196 --> 00:17.361 in our 2025 Leadership Series. Today's guest 00:17.921 --> 00:22.385 is Alex Renton, a British journalist, broadcaster, 00:23.126 --> 00:25.909 and a visiting fellow at Newcastle University. 00:28.470 --> 00:31.392 Alex is the author of several historical 00:31.632 --> 00:35.695 and investigative books, including Stiff 00:35.935 --> 00:40.158 Upper Lip, Secrets, Crimes, and the Schooling 00:40.378 --> 00:46.842 of a Ruling Class, and Blood Legacy, Reckoning 00:46.902 --> 01:15.297 with a Family Story of Slavery. In 2023, 00:53.166 --> 00:56.008 he co-founded the advocacy and educational 00:56.088 --> 01:01.711 group Heirs of Slavery. In this episode, 01:02.391 --> 01:05.693 we discuss the topic, reimagining the media 01:06.593 --> 01:10.034 in a liberal democracy in the digital and 01:10.194 --> 01:15.297 AI age. Alex Renton, welcome. 01:16.977 --> 01:19.138 Thank you very much, Stephen. A great pleasure 01:19.158 --> 01:19.679 to be here. 01:22.440 --> 01:26.654 Your book, Blood Legacy, Reckoning with a 01:26.734 --> 01:30.917 Family Story of Slavery, is a deeply personal 01:31.738 --> 01:34.520 and unflinching exploration of your family's 01:34.600 --> 01:37.583 involvement in British Caribbean slavery. 01:39.484 --> 01:41.926 Your meticulous research into your family's 01:41.986 --> 01:46.351 papers uncovers the history of your ancestors 01:46.611 --> 01:50.273 as slave owners, slave and plantation owners 01:50.493 --> 01:54.055 in Tobago and Jamaica during the 18th and 01:54.275 --> 01:57.997 19th centuries. The book details the brutal 01:58.037 --> 02:01.178 realities of slavery on your family's estates 02:02.139 --> 02:04.420 and the financial benefits they derived from 02:04.520 --> 02:09.102 this exploitation. You highlight the disturbing 02:09.182 --> 02:12.506 fact that when slavery was abolished, in 02:12.546 --> 02:16.708 most of the British Empire in 1833, it was 02:16.748 --> 02:20.490 the enslavers who received substantial compensation 02:20.650 --> 02:24.191 from the government, not the enslaved people. 02:26.352 --> 02:29.654 This historical injustice, you argue, has 02:29.854 --> 02:33.576 contributed to the lasting economic and social 02:33.756 --> 02:37.245 inequalities seen in Britain today. with 02:37.265 --> 02:40.626 the descendants of slave owners, often among 02:40.746 --> 02:44.887 the wealthiest and most powerful. But first, 02:45.068 --> 02:48.469 Alex, can you please tell us something about 02:48.489 --> 02:51.530 your childhood? And how did your childhood 02:51.550 --> 02:54.951 prepare you for the brutal realities you 02:54.991 --> 02:57.611 so powerfully catalog in your compelling 02:57.651 --> 02:57.872 book? 03:00.472 --> 03:02.853 Thank you very much, Stephen, for that introduction. 03:03.253 --> 03:08.510 And what an interesting question. I, so I, 03:09.271 --> 03:11.133 yes, and I'm kind of you're making me think 03:11.153 --> 03:13.375 about about the relevance of my childhood 03:13.415 --> 03:16.218 to the work I've subsequently done. The I 03:16.678 --> 03:19.781 so I had a very traditional, upper class, 03:21.163 --> 03:24.786 British childhood, really, along exactly 03:24.846 --> 03:26.728 the same lines as my ancestors going back, 03:26.748 --> 03:29.372 you know, for several generations, in that 03:29.652 --> 03:33.898 I was brought up in a large house with some 03:33.958 --> 03:36.803 domestic servants, and at the age of eight, 03:36.923 --> 03:40.368 dispatched to a private boarding school to 03:40.408 --> 03:44.525 prepare me for entry to Eton. and so I'm 03:45.166 --> 03:50.087 very much the sort of orthodox template education 03:50.167 --> 03:52.448 for a male child of the ruling class for 03:52.468 --> 03:55.449 them to go out and then rule what remained 03:55.489 --> 03:57.570 of the British Empire. I mean this of course 03:57.630 --> 03:59.371 is the 1970s so the British Empire was fast 03:59.491 --> 04:01.772 crumbling before our eyes and none too soon 04:01.812 --> 04:05.233 but I think in terms of how it affected me, 04:05.253 --> 04:07.494 you know, I was at the same school as Boris 04:07.514 --> 04:10.796 Johnson, the British Prime Minister, and 04:11.016 --> 04:14.718 others. And, of course, Eton, but it went 04:14.738 --> 04:17.320 very badly wrong for me, as it did for quite 04:17.360 --> 04:20.982 a number of people. I mean, I was, I didn't 04:21.582 --> 04:24.744 flourish at all at the prep school. And I 04:25.284 --> 04:30.105 partly because of abuse by the traditional 04:30.126 --> 04:33.486 types of abuse, criminal and, and legal by 04:33.646 --> 04:37.567 those who ran the school. And, and I, I really 04:37.687 --> 04:40.067 emerged what like quite a few other people, 04:40.727 --> 04:44.008 very anti establishment in a sort of unformed 04:44.068 --> 04:48.008 way as a young teenager. I think I decided 04:48.189 --> 04:50.029 quite strongly that I didn't trust adults. 04:50.649 --> 04:53.309 And, and this is not a I've written about 04:53.329 --> 04:54.870 this phenomenon interview of any others who 04:54.890 --> 04:56.510 went through this system is not uncommon. 04:57.810 --> 05:01.151 I, and I emerged, you know, in my early 20s, 05:01.251 --> 05:05.053 becoming a journalist as someone whose core 05:05.113 --> 05:09.194 belief was that authority and the establishments 05:09.774 --> 05:11.695 should not be trusted and should be challenged 05:11.715 --> 05:16.116 at all times, which is not a bad, a bad basis 05:16.216 --> 05:20.298 for a, an investor journalist, but it can 05:20.338 --> 05:23.557 also be destructive. personally for me, you 05:23.577 --> 05:26.278 know, troubles emerged from that period that 05:26.578 --> 05:28.579 I, you know, probably deal with all my life. 05:28.679 --> 05:31.661 But, but in a way that bad experience inside 05:31.681 --> 05:33.882 the sort of engine of British of the British 05:34.062 --> 05:38.484 elite was good for me in that it gave me 05:38.524 --> 05:41.686 a life of challenging the elite and its its 05:41.706 --> 05:43.287 history and its and its beliefs. 05:46.926 --> 05:51.167 Your book, Blood Legacy, goes beyond a simple 05:51.207 --> 05:54.408 historical account. You grapple with the 05:54.468 --> 05:57.749 moral and spiritual inheritance passed down 05:58.389 --> 06:00.610 to the descendants of both the enslavers 06:01.190 --> 06:04.991 and the enslaved. In your searches for the 06:05.031 --> 06:08.212 book, you interviewed people living in the 06:08.232 --> 06:11.333 Caribbean today, thus giving voice to the 06:11.433 --> 06:14.234 enduring legacy of colonialism and slavery. 06:16.132 --> 06:20.636 Alex, talk to us about the significant burden 06:20.676 --> 06:22.857 of history that weighs heavily upon your 06:22.917 --> 06:26.100 shoulders as a descendant of slave owners. 06:27.120 --> 06:30.363 What is it like to recognize that the privileges 06:30.443 --> 06:33.345 you have taken for granted are largely a 06:33.405 --> 06:35.107 result of slavery? 06:38.769 --> 06:42.992 I think Yes, I mean, I wonder about largely 06:43.633 --> 06:46.314 the result. I mean, it's kind of hard to 06:46.835 --> 06:51.758 dissect that. I, you know, I'm certainly 06:51.858 --> 06:54.620 privileged because of my ancestry, in many 06:54.700 --> 06:59.383 ways, I think. And I think, you know, I think 06:59.463 --> 07:04.534 most people in Britain, who do come to a 07:04.574 --> 07:07.855 realisation about the fact that what, particularly 07:07.875 --> 07:09.536 if you have an elite education, that you 07:09.576 --> 07:13.357 will not be taught the truth about how your 07:13.477 --> 07:16.658 privilege came about, or indeed about how 07:16.718 --> 07:18.639 the British Empire behaved. We were all taught 07:18.699 --> 07:20.219 a sort of, I'd like to put it as a sort of 07:20.259 --> 07:24.781 North Korean propaganda, about the benevolence 07:24.841 --> 07:26.721 of the Empire, indeed, the benevolence of 07:26.761 --> 07:29.442 the British in abolishing slavery, which 07:29.462 --> 07:33.025 is kind of hideously comic when you look 07:33.065 --> 07:34.967 back at the 250 years in which enslavement 07:35.007 --> 07:38.911 of Africans enriched us and made the rise 07:38.951 --> 07:43.276 of the empire possible. I think when I really 07:43.376 --> 07:45.698 stumbled, as I say in this book, across this 07:45.758 --> 07:47.660 history, it should have been hidden from 07:47.700 --> 07:52.095 me in my generation. by my parents and my 07:52.135 --> 07:54.016 grandparents. I mean, it just wasn't talked 07:54.076 --> 07:55.857 about, we weren't going to admit it. The 07:55.897 --> 07:58.818 first thing that it was, it opened my eyes 07:58.838 --> 08:00.898 to an awful lot, I mean, and made it immediately 08:00.938 --> 08:06.980 apparent to me, in 2016, that this needed 08:07.000 --> 08:09.501 to be addressed, because the ongoing consequences, 08:09.561 --> 08:11.762 as you've said, we're still affecting not 08:11.782 --> 08:13.902 just British society, but society in West 08:13.942 --> 08:16.463 Africa and the Caribbean, the ongoing consequences 08:16.483 --> 08:19.364 of transatlantic slavery. But also, that 08:22.179 --> 08:27.585 It was a deeply unhealthy strain in British 08:27.965 --> 08:31.509 thinking, which was based on this notion 08:31.590 --> 08:36.448 of benevolence. And essentially, we'd acted 08:36.489 --> 08:38.170 for the good rather than being as you know, 08:38.290 --> 08:40.452 increasingly people waking up to people who 08:40.792 --> 08:43.574 systematically looted and murdered their 08:43.614 --> 08:45.496 way across the world in order to enrich themselves. 08:45.516 --> 08:50.140 And so I think I saw it more in those lines, 08:50.560 --> 08:53.923 rather than me personally. And that's what 08:53.963 --> 08:57.186 drove me to write the book. And But then 08:57.246 --> 08:58.928 I went to, and this seemed really important 08:58.989 --> 09:01.232 because no one had done this, not just in 09:01.292 --> 09:03.014 my family, but it seemed to me in Britain, 09:03.775 --> 09:07.019 to go as a descendant of these people to 09:07.060 --> 09:09.503 the plantations in Jamaica and Tobago and 09:09.563 --> 09:11.946 say, what does this mean to you? And what 09:11.966 --> 09:14.028 should I do about it? It seems, you know, 09:14.328 --> 09:17.009 a very obvious journalistic thing to do. 09:17.809 --> 09:19.589 And the conversations I had that can really 09:19.649 --> 09:25.291 completely turns my head in terms of my attitudes 09:25.331 --> 09:29.932 to this history, and realizing that, you 09:29.972 --> 09:33.253 know, the generosity of people descended 09:33.333 --> 09:36.731 from the people we enslaved. and their pleasure 09:37.251 --> 09:39.512 at the fact that someone like me had come 09:39.712 --> 09:43.234 and was going to acknowledge. And their kindness 09:43.514 --> 09:46.255 in suggesting ways forward towards peace 09:46.355 --> 09:51.127 and reconciliation was so enriching. that 09:51.167 --> 09:54.311 you realized that this was now the duty was 09:54.351 --> 09:56.172 to try and introduce this notion to as many 09:56.213 --> 09:57.734 people as possible. So really what came out 09:57.754 --> 09:59.536 of the book is, you've spoken to Charlie 09:59.556 --> 10:01.678 Gladstone on your podcast, really interesting, 10:01.899 --> 10:05.402 just listen to him. He and I and others formed 10:05.462 --> 10:07.925 a group to try and help encourage others 10:07.965 --> 10:14.164 to come forward, less to sort of, I mean, 10:14.284 --> 10:15.945 to acknowledge what had happened and acknowledge 10:16.005 --> 10:19.466 our shame at the denial of it and its significance. 10:19.666 --> 10:22.067 I think that's it, rather than guilt, because 10:22.507 --> 10:26.328 guilt is a more direct thing. But also that, 10:26.588 --> 10:29.089 you know, we could encourage people, privileged 10:29.109 --> 10:32.550 people in Britain to reach out and try and 10:32.570 --> 10:34.851 offer support to people fighting racism and 10:34.891 --> 10:38.021 indeed for acts of repair and justice. So 10:38.041 --> 10:40.243 that's really how it played out. It was it. 10:40.603 --> 10:43.325 But I mean, I want to stress how emotional 10:43.385 --> 10:45.947 it was, you know, this discovery about my 10:46.067 --> 10:49.269 my origins, and, you know, and really, I 10:49.449 --> 10:51.711 think, one of the key conversations I had 10:51.791 --> 10:53.532 early on, when I'd first started reading 10:53.572 --> 10:56.214 my ancestors letters, and wondering what 10:56.254 --> 10:58.715 to do with them, I spoke to a friend who 10:59.016 --> 11:02.278 racializes as black, a writer and comedian, 11:02.598 --> 11:05.199 a woman in London, you know, a good friend, 11:05.259 --> 11:07.160 but someone we never really, we clearly never 11:07.200 --> 11:09.341 talked about these things. And she said to 11:09.381 --> 11:11.323 me, I really don't want, I don't want to 11:11.403 --> 11:15.145 read the history of how your ancestors brutalized 11:15.285 --> 11:17.907 my ancestors. I've read enough of that. She 11:17.967 --> 11:21.009 used the word slavery porn. But what I do 11:21.069 --> 11:23.731 want to know is how you white people are 11:23.771 --> 11:29.196 going to heal yourselves. And that stuck 11:29.216 --> 11:30.557 with me really through the whole writing 11:30.577 --> 11:34.118 of the book and until now. Acknowledging, 11:34.138 --> 11:39.381 some people have given terms to describe 11:39.401 --> 11:42.222 it, this white psychopathy, if you like, 11:43.863 --> 11:46.044 that we are still a problem and our attitudes 11:46.724 --> 11:49.606 derived from centuries of dominating the 11:49.646 --> 11:52.927 world are the thing that needs to be addressed 11:53.027 --> 11:55.169 if we're to arrive at a better world in which 11:55.209 --> 11:55.949 we can live in peace. 11:59.397 --> 12:03.199 Your book crucially asks how those who have 12:03.299 --> 12:06.640 benefited from this history can begin to 12:06.700 --> 12:10.822 make reparations for the past. You examined 12:10.842 --> 12:14.584 the political, economic, and moral dimensions 12:14.664 --> 12:18.346 of reparations, arguing for a wider societal 12:18.526 --> 12:21.867 reckoning with this dark chapter of history. 12:23.428 --> 12:28.599 Now, in 2023, You co-founded an advocacy 12:28.640 --> 12:32.222 collective called Heirs of Slavery, aimed 12:32.382 --> 12:35.145 at exploring the issue of reparations in 12:35.225 --> 12:40.709 practical ways. Can you please identify the 12:40.749 --> 12:43.531 factors that could help overcome the resistance 12:44.212 --> 12:47.494 in public discourse regarding reparations? 12:48.655 --> 12:51.758 What would you advise ordinary members of 12:51.798 --> 12:54.700 the public to do to advance this cause? 12:59.013 --> 13:02.574 That's, again, a very significant and interesting 13:02.594 --> 13:06.956 question. I think when I advise, because 13:07.476 --> 13:08.856 considerable numbers of people come forward 13:09.656 --> 13:11.917 with my own experience saying, I've realised 13:11.977 --> 13:13.518 I have this history, what should I do about 13:13.598 --> 13:15.478 it? And we as heirs of slavery, I think our 13:15.538 --> 13:18.199 chief role is in helping them come forward 13:18.719 --> 13:22.400 to acknowledge and to look at ways of addressing 13:22.460 --> 13:25.267 repair, if that's what they want. And I think 13:25.767 --> 13:28.088 the first thing that we would say is start 13:28.168 --> 13:31.809 learning and listening. It's not for us as 13:31.869 --> 13:34.110 the descendants of the enslavers, the people 13:34.150 --> 13:37.231 who are enriched, to tell the descendants 13:37.271 --> 13:41.533 of the enslaved how to campaign or what they 13:41.573 --> 13:43.313 should be asking for, what they should want. 13:43.413 --> 13:46.194 It is our role to listen and to support if 13:46.274 --> 13:48.975 wanted. And some, I've talked to lots of 13:49.275 --> 13:51.836 reparations activists, in the recent years 13:51.916 --> 13:53.497 and some don't want our support at all for 13:53.557 --> 13:55.957 very credible reasons and one has to accept 13:55.997 --> 13:58.398 that. But so I think you know it starts with 13:58.458 --> 14:00.878 that but I'm one of the the initial you know 14:01.138 --> 14:02.539 the reason for hours of slavery is a lot 14:02.579 --> 14:05.259 of people said after I published my book 14:05.319 --> 14:07.340 and and you know other similar books were 14:07.380 --> 14:09.840 coming out at the same time it was you know 14:10.640 --> 14:14.102 acknowledgement is all very well And making 14:14.142 --> 14:17.605 a direct debit to Black Youth Opportunities 14:18.105 --> 14:20.947 NGO in London or in Kingston, Jamaica is 14:21.228 --> 14:24.290 all very well too. But this is just a pleasure 14:24.330 --> 14:25.952 for you. You're salving your conscience. 14:26.692 --> 14:28.754 That's what charitable giving is often about. 14:28.834 --> 14:32.737 It's about a dopamine hit. But this is, you 14:32.857 --> 14:35.399 have, you are entitled, you are connected 14:35.439 --> 14:38.001 to power possibly because, so you have it. 14:39.082 --> 14:41.786 have it within you to influence this wider 14:41.826 --> 14:46.192 debate. So we we that's what we set about. 14:46.533 --> 14:49.156 But I have to say I'm at a bit of a loss 14:49.197 --> 14:53.295 at the moment because when we set up in the 14:53.495 --> 14:56.118 shortly after the 2020 Black Lives Matter 14:56.158 --> 15:00.682 movement resurfaced in Britain, after the 15:00.722 --> 15:02.623 murder of George Floyd, things look much 15:02.684 --> 15:04.505 more hopeful. We had a Labour Party then 15:04.565 --> 15:08.969 in opposition who, with a man, David Lammy, 15:08.989 --> 15:10.530 who was to become foreign minister saying 15:10.550 --> 15:13.873 he actively wanted to pursue the international 15:13.933 --> 15:16.195 reparations as set out by the CARICOM group 15:16.235 --> 15:18.978 of nations. And that has changed totally. 15:19.975 --> 15:22.076 if anything, because of partly because what's 15:22.096 --> 15:23.417 happened in the States, you know, there's 15:23.457 --> 15:25.839 been a road back from the notion that there 15:25.899 --> 15:29.161 is a solution to this, to this international 15:29.201 --> 15:31.783 justice that is through law and through through 15:31.983 --> 15:35.612 transfer of finances. And that, you know, 15:35.732 --> 15:39.955 what we're seeing now is corporations rowing 15:40.015 --> 15:42.457 back on equality, diversity and inclusion 15:42.517 --> 15:44.679 initiatives, which is something that, you 15:44.699 --> 15:47.581 know, a lot of thought was in the bag that 15:47.661 --> 15:50.843 corporations work better if they include 15:51.104 --> 15:54.446 other people. So we're really fighting a 15:54.486 --> 15:56.187 battle to hold on to the gains that have 15:56.227 --> 15:59.992 been got. What, I mean, to your question, 16:00.032 --> 16:02.293 sorry, more precisely, I mean, what do we 16:02.373 --> 16:05.015 do to further the international reparations 16:05.215 --> 16:11.238 debate? I mean, I think all we can do or 16:11.258 --> 16:13.919 people from my side of this history can do 16:13.959 --> 16:17.041 is ensure it still remains on the table, 16:17.561 --> 16:20.663 despite the Commonwealth, you know, the throwback 16:20.723 --> 16:23.425 from the Labour Party in no power to the 16:23.465 --> 16:24.745 Commonwealth Heads of Government meeting, 16:25.065 --> 16:27.227 you know, asking that talks should begin. 16:28.357 --> 16:30.198 we just have to say it's still there, it's 16:30.238 --> 16:32.359 still to be talked about. And that's something 16:32.399 --> 16:36.501 that we try to do. But my, and I think, you 16:36.541 --> 16:40.123 know, the other thing that we we talk about 16:40.163 --> 16:42.765 as a group to people coming forward is reparations 16:42.805 --> 16:45.526 takes many forms. I mean, the CARICOM plan 16:45.586 --> 16:48.147 isn't just about give us trillions of dollars, 16:48.167 --> 16:51.909 and that the right wing of have have have 16:52.050 --> 16:55.691 weaponized that ask. But it's about about 16:56.972 --> 17:00.893 issues around sharing technology, about forgiveness 17:00.933 --> 17:04.294 of debt, about allowing young people visas 17:04.334 --> 17:07.335 to come and study. So there are many other 17:07.375 --> 17:10.296 ways of repair, of seeking healing and repair 17:10.356 --> 17:13.857 that we have to continue to pursue and up 17:13.937 --> 17:16.118 our efforts. And that is essentially about 17:16.178 --> 17:18.659 combating racism in our societies now. In 12:59.013 --> 17:18.659 2023, 17:24.372 --> 17:27.675 I had the pleasure of interviewing a Ugandan-American 17:27.755 --> 17:30.837 journalist and publisher of the Black Star 17:30.897 --> 17:35.561 newspaper, Mr. Milton Allimadi, for a powerful 17:35.621 --> 17:39.284 podcast, How to Decolonize Africa's Toxic 17:39.424 --> 17:44.147 Image. I highly recommend the podcast. Now, 17:45.008 --> 17:48.191 Milton published a powerful book, Manufacturing 17:48.271 --> 17:51.873 Hate, How Africa was Demonized in Western 17:51.914 --> 17:55.787 Media. The book argues that early European 17:55.827 --> 17:59.028 travelers, acting as agents of imperialism, 17:59.788 --> 18:02.429 intentionally demonized Africans in their 18:02.469 --> 18:06.290 writings, especially in journals, to justify 18:06.350 --> 18:09.791 the subsequent conquest, colonization, and 18:09.951 --> 18:12.692 exploitation of the continent and its resources 18:13.272 --> 18:18.333 under the guise of civilizing mission. This 18:18.433 --> 18:21.935 narrative the book contends. was perpetrated 18:22.055 --> 18:25.597 by later Western media, including prominent 18:25.897 --> 18:28.858 publications like the New York Times and 18:28.878 --> 18:31.900 the National Geographic, which inherited 18:32.060 --> 18:37.142 and reinforced these racist depictions. Alex, 18:38.342 --> 18:41.263 considering the enduring legacy of slavery, 18:42.364 --> 18:46.286 how critical is it for contemporary journalism 18:46.426 --> 18:50.570 and education to actively dismantle its lingering 18:50.750 --> 18:53.813 effects on societal understanding and perceptions 18:54.574 --> 18:55.755 in the 21st century. 18:58.637 --> 19:01.740 Well Stephen, it's clearly critically important 19:01.760 --> 19:08.214 if you are one of those This used to be a 19:08.274 --> 19:11.215 universal belief, but it's now challenged. 19:11.415 --> 19:20.176 He believes that ending racism or abuse and 19:20.696 --> 19:25.537 intolerance based on skin color is the key 19:25.617 --> 19:30.938 to us arriving at a world which is more equitable 19:31.118 --> 19:36.639 and more just and better. So I think one 19:36.659 --> 19:39.002 of the key things, learning experiences, 19:39.823 --> 19:42.365 you certainly, when I do talks about my book 19:42.966 --> 19:45.809 to book festivals, you know, reason fairly, 19:46.289 --> 19:49.152 fairly ordinary middle class British people. 19:50.839 --> 19:51.880 One of the questions that comes up again 19:51.900 --> 19:54.503 and again is people going, you know, slavery 19:54.563 --> 19:56.344 is part of the human condition, it's always 19:56.364 --> 20:00.789 been with us. Why should we see transatlantic 20:00.869 --> 20:04.352 enslavement of Africans as any more significant, 20:04.372 --> 20:10.987 you know, or important to today's debate 20:11.047 --> 20:13.269 than the enslavement of British people by 20:13.309 --> 20:16.651 the Romans back then. I mean, it's a standard 20:17.072 --> 20:19.554 rebuttal. And to which you say, I mean, I'm 20:20.214 --> 20:23.557 not the only one who says it, that British 20:23.817 --> 20:26.379 or European transatlantic enslavement is 20:26.699 --> 20:29.581 sui generis. for various reasons, not least 20:29.601 --> 20:31.382 that it was totally industrialized, that 20:31.402 --> 20:35.105 it was legalized, but that it was entirely 20:35.185 --> 20:38.188 racist and there is no other form of enslavement. 20:38.228 --> 20:40.389 And I can see this very specifically in my 20:40.429 --> 20:45.373 ancestors' letters about managing the plantations. 20:45.753 --> 20:48.355 As Christians, as readers of Thomas Paine 20:48.415 --> 20:50.036 and believers of the rights of man, as liberal 20:50.297 --> 20:53.619 members of parliament, they believed in forms 20:53.679 --> 20:55.681 of equality, which we would now see as quite 20:55.701 --> 20:59.643 modern, but not for a subhuman race. And 20:59.683 --> 21:03.565 that enabled them, you know, to brand human 21:03.605 --> 21:05.866 beings as you would have to treat human to 21:05.966 --> 21:09.788 breed more young breed baby slaves, if you 21:09.828 --> 21:13.430 like, I mean, you can't put it too nastily, 21:13.510 --> 21:15.090 because you have to get through to people. 21:15.391 --> 21:17.432 And eventually people do say, Okay, I guess 21:17.512 --> 21:20.613 it, it was racist. And then you go, and that 21:20.673 --> 21:24.455 racism, that belief that people of that skin 21:24.495 --> 21:31.594 color were subhuman, uncivilizable, uneducable 21:32.995 --> 21:35.797 roots, if you like, all those words persist 21:35.837 --> 21:37.818 today. And they're at the root of the systemic 21:37.878 --> 21:40.900 racism that we see in Britain, which, you 21:40.980 --> 21:42.841 know, the statistical outcomes we all know 21:42.881 --> 21:46.203 about in health and criminal justice and 21:46.503 --> 21:51.045 education and so on. So nailing that home, 21:52.366 --> 21:54.768 and saying this isn't history, this is today, 21:55.348 --> 21:59.589 I think that that what I can do, and people 21:59.629 --> 22:04.855 like me going forward. I mean, Milton Allimadi, 22:04.895 --> 22:07.058 who sounds fascinating, and I haven't listened 22:07.158 --> 22:09.201 to the Manufacturing Hate podcast, but I 22:09.261 --> 22:13.899 will, is, I mean, I think you know, we, it's 22:14.059 --> 22:17.704 clear that Western journalists continue to 22:17.784 --> 22:21.348 demonize Africa that continues to be, you 22:21.388 --> 22:23.891 know, I hear this daily in our work, you 22:23.931 --> 22:26.714 know, a sort of what's the point in giving 22:26.754 --> 22:29.898 reparations money to ex Caribbean country 22:29.938 --> 22:31.880 because they've never run themselves competently, 22:31.920 --> 22:35.343 they're all corrupt. I think you need to 22:35.403 --> 22:38.184 show that these attitudes come from that 22:39.204 --> 22:41.985 legalised racism that enabled enslavement. 22:42.105 --> 22:45.486 Because until you counter that, you don't 22:45.526 --> 22:51.348 counter anything. I don't want to be hopeless, 22:51.408 --> 22:54.930 but we're not living in a society where the 22:55.150 --> 22:57.651 most developed countries are becoming less 22:57.731 --> 23:01.083 racist. I mean, if anything, what's going 23:01.163 --> 23:04.125 on in nationalist politics at the moment 23:04.385 --> 23:08.649 is revitalising racist attitudes. And that's 23:08.729 --> 23:10.290 a new phenomenon we're going to have to address 23:10.330 --> 23:13.292 in new ways, because the old ways of addressing 23:13.352 --> 23:14.954 it are deeply in decline. 23:18.456 --> 23:22.119 In researching this podcast, I asked a political 23:22.159 --> 23:25.302 columnist at The Guardian and author of Politics, 23:25.842 --> 23:30.497 a Survivor's Guide, Mr. Rafael Behr, whether 23:30.537 --> 23:33.419 he had anything to say about my upcoming 23:33.539 --> 23:38.123 interview with you. In his email to me, he 23:38.183 --> 23:42.026 wrote this, and I quote, from my perspective, 23:43.006 --> 23:46.509 the hardest question is how journalists are 23:46.609 --> 23:49.291 expected to separate straight news reporting 23:50.032 --> 23:53.094 from opinion in an environment where political 23:53.254 --> 23:57.283 leaders, Trump, for example, lie all the 23:57.343 --> 24:00.505 time and refuse to engage with any of the 24:00.585 --> 24:04.787 norms of democracy. The conventional model 24:05.207 --> 24:08.570 of balance and impartiality breaks down when 24:08.710 --> 24:11.491 one side of the argument is dealing with 24:11.731 --> 24:15.874 facts and the other side just makes up its 24:16.014 --> 24:20.557 own version of the truth. So much of our 24:20.897 --> 24:24.273 political media culture rests on the assumption 24:24.413 --> 24:27.436 that everyone is kind of operating within 24:27.516 --> 24:32.220 parameters of decency and protocols that 24:32.400 --> 24:36.464 are intrinsically democratic. We don't have 24:36.624 --> 24:39.867 a vocabulary for reporting on politicians 24:40.408 --> 24:45.112 who don't recognize those rules. Rafael's 24:45.152 --> 24:50.372 questions are as follows. If we think a politician 24:50.512 --> 24:54.575 represents a threat to democracy by the essential 24:54.615 --> 24:59.059 character of their politics, how do we communicate 24:59.239 --> 25:03.703 that in the reporting? Does it necessarily 25:03.983 --> 25:07.847 blur the boundary between opinion and reporting? 25:08.968 --> 25:12.871 Is there a duty to be partisan if we think 25:12.931 --> 25:14.973 democracy itself is under threat? 25:17.705 --> 25:20.906 It's a very thorny one. I know Raphael's 25:21.126 --> 25:23.326 writing and I really respect him very much. 25:23.766 --> 25:28.687 I mean, he really puts his finger right on 25:29.267 --> 25:33.048 the crisis in our society, in our democracies 25:33.128 --> 25:36.089 at the moment, to which I think a lot of 25:37.589 --> 25:39.930 people are scratching their heads and failing 25:39.970 --> 25:43.410 to find an answer. I mean, those rules that 25:43.450 --> 25:46.151 he refers to were very fragile. And I don't 25:46.171 --> 25:50.419 think we understood how fragile they were, 25:50.499 --> 25:55.041 that facts were facts and opinion was not, 25:55.341 --> 25:59.122 and that the great discovery of partly using 25:59.142 --> 26:02.524 the new technologies of President Trump and 26:02.584 --> 26:05.245 his like, and many of his like in Britain 26:05.325 --> 26:09.015 as well, it was that that you could break 26:09.035 --> 26:10.876 those rules very easily. No one would no 26:11.016 --> 26:14.018 one, no, the great majority wouldn't notice 26:14.098 --> 26:16.180 or care because they'd never actually understood 26:16.220 --> 26:18.941 them. The gap, as Raphael puts it between 26:18.981 --> 26:22.643 opinion and reporting. And that you can simply 26:22.663 --> 26:24.745 if you're loud enough, and you flood the 26:24.805 --> 26:28.147 space, as they've put it with with bad information, 26:28.207 --> 26:31.088 you can drown out the good, the decent information, 26:31.769 --> 26:34.851 which was, you know, which was always a difficult, 26:36.684 --> 26:38.125 difficult concept anyway, because you know, 26:38.165 --> 26:40.487 who's ever going to agree on what is his 26:40.587 --> 26:43.049 absolute truth? I mean, that's one for philosophers, 26:43.090 --> 26:48.954 but I, it's very, very frightening what's 26:48.974 --> 26:50.636 going on in the media at the moment. And, 26:50.956 --> 26:54.344 and that you know, I worked as a news journalist 26:54.444 --> 26:56.766 on daily newspapers for 20 years earlier, 26:56.866 --> 26:59.227 earlier in my life, and that gap between 27:00.588 --> 27:03.630 expressing opinion and and impartially reporting 27:03.670 --> 27:06.332 was, was under threat even then, I mean, 27:06.752 --> 27:09.554 not least because you, you chose a story 27:09.594 --> 27:11.976 to do on a good newspaper, you know, it was 27:12.036 --> 27:14.157 because you were moved and had an opinion 27:14.237 --> 27:16.199 on it. And then you'd set up but the rules 27:16.259 --> 27:20.981 were there. And the rules, are gone. I continually 27:21.041 --> 27:24.223 complain when I see loudmouthed columnists 27:24.343 --> 27:27.905 on European or American newspapers calling 27:27.945 --> 27:30.386 themselves journalists. They're not. I'm 27:30.406 --> 27:32.107 a journalist. I went to journalism school. 27:32.167 --> 27:37.950 I did exams in ethics and legal reporting 27:38.010 --> 27:40.311 and libel law and so on. That makes me a 27:40.351 --> 27:42.892 journalist. But one of the problems, particularly 27:42.912 --> 27:44.913 in Britain, is it was always deprofessionalised 27:45.054 --> 27:47.995 and mocked, even in its peak. I mean, I'm 27:48.195 --> 27:50.036 you know, even when I was a young man, and 27:50.056 --> 27:51.937 we, you know, journalists were down there 27:51.977 --> 27:54.758 with bookmakers and, and pimps, in terms 27:54.818 --> 27:56.719 of, because you ask the member of the public, 27:56.759 --> 27:58.060 do you trust a journalist? They go, No, of 27:58.100 --> 28:00.161 course I don't. Because they look stupid 28:00.201 --> 28:01.782 if they say they trust a journalist, but 28:01.962 --> 28:05.783 but we were trustworthy. And that's gone. 28:06.164 --> 28:08.845 And I really don't know. But I don't think 28:09.745 --> 28:13.187 I mean, specifically, Mr. Behr's question 28:13.667 --> 28:20.269 is, can, can you can you, should you be partisan 28:20.289 --> 28:24.931 to fight for the greater good? And I really 28:24.971 --> 28:26.552 don't know. I mean, I mean, I, you know, 28:26.592 --> 28:30.974 your instinct is to go don't fight the evil 28:31.354 --> 28:34.336 by adopting evil. That's a decent principle. 28:35.376 --> 28:37.717 But on the other hand, what we try to do 28:38.577 --> 28:42.634 isn't working. not least because, as I read 28:42.654 --> 28:45.156 the other day, 30% of people in the UK and 28:45.196 --> 28:48.178 America don't have any news sources at all 28:48.238 --> 28:49.839 that we would call traditional. They don't 28:49.859 --> 28:51.500 watch TV news, they don't watch newspaper 28:51.540 --> 28:55.022 news. And we all know that TV news isn't 28:55.482 --> 28:57.163 so impartial or great, depending on what 28:57.183 --> 29:01.666 you look at. So no, we're in in very deep 29:01.706 --> 29:03.628 trouble. I'm, you know, I'm not a news journalist 29:03.688 --> 29:06.130 anymore. I mean, I made some programs for 29:06.150 --> 29:09.093 the BBC earlier this year, where it's kind 29:09.133 --> 29:11.375 of interesting, because BBC, you know, much, 29:12.095 --> 29:14.978 much mocked and derided on and criticised 29:15.018 --> 29:17.721 on all sides. But it does try to apply standards, 29:17.761 --> 29:19.963 it's really hard making vestive news for 29:19.983 --> 29:22.485 the BBC, because you you come up against 29:22.545 --> 29:25.749 controls that you find really onerous and 29:26.069 --> 29:27.892 kind of unnecessary, but they are trying 29:27.953 --> 29:30.216 to do the old fashioned job. And I noticed 29:30.256 --> 29:32.520 the other day that on the BBC website for 29:32.560 --> 29:35.145 this investigative series I did, In Dark 29:35.185 --> 29:37.389 Corners, it's called, it's on BBC sounds, 29:37.609 --> 29:41.600 if you're interested. has my title has been 29:41.660 --> 29:44.142 changed. It says that it said that investor 29:44.162 --> 29:46.224 journalist Alex Renton looks at this. And 29:46.244 --> 29:49.787 now it says, campaigner and activists and 29:49.828 --> 29:53.591 journalists. And they're trying to do the 29:53.611 --> 29:55.573 right thing. You can see there, and I kind 29:55.613 --> 29:57.635 of a bit cross because I'm going well, you 29:57.655 --> 29:59.176 know, I know I did the job properly, but 29:59.957 --> 30:04.300 campaigner and activists, you know, you know, 30:04.340 --> 30:05.841 there is an element of those programs to 30:05.881 --> 30:07.442 that, you know, campaigning for children's 30:07.482 --> 30:11.644 safety and in boarding schools. But um, so 30:12.004 --> 30:16.307 what do we do practically, I think we have, 30:16.327 --> 30:19.308 you know, I mean, certainly, I spent a lot 30:19.348 --> 30:21.189 of time telling people in my country tell 30:21.209 --> 30:24.576 you that the BBC should be in destroyed or 30:24.696 --> 30:26.377 taken down or not receive public subsidy 30:26.417 --> 30:28.478 any longer that actually they should do it. 30:29.299 --> 30:32.641 However much they hate it, it's the last 30:32.721 --> 30:37.865 bastion. It's independent media, whose independence 30:37.925 --> 30:42.028 is enshrined in law and is funded impartially 30:42.108 --> 30:46.471 of corporations that can influence it. I'm 30:46.511 --> 30:48.232 sorry, I went on for a very long time there, 30:48.252 --> 30:48.532 Stephen. 30:52.259 --> 30:57.061 On April 26, 2025, the former British Prime 30:57.081 --> 30:59.662 Minister, Gordon Brown, published a piece 31:00.362 --> 31:02.823 in The Guardian to inform the world about 31:02.843 --> 31:06.304 his formal complaint to the police. This 31:06.364 --> 31:10.246 is what he said, and I quote, for some time, 31:11.186 --> 31:13.727 the public have known that over three decades 31:14.707 --> 31:19.469 and across every continent, NGN, marching 31:19.609 --> 31:22.836 under the banner of free press, invaded the 31:22.976 --> 31:26.537 private lives of thousands of innocent citizens. 31:27.717 --> 31:32.079 He continues, Sir William Lewis, the former 31:32.119 --> 31:35.820 group general manager of NGN and the current 31:35.880 --> 31:39.100 publisher of the Washington Post, attempted 31:39.140 --> 31:42.981 to incriminate Tom Watson and me, accusing 31:43.082 --> 32:51.919 us in statements made to the police in 2011 31:45.322 --> 31:51.046 of theft and bribery. He falsely claimed 31:51.066 --> 31:54.948 a conspiracy by the two of us to suborn an 31:55.168 --> 31:59.170 unnamed employee who was supposedly handing 31:59.310 --> 32:03.192 us private documents. This was their pretext 32:03.612 --> 32:07.854 for shredding reams of evidence. As one of 32:07.894 --> 32:10.796 the investigating officers has said, they 32:11.196 --> 32:14.217 falsely implicated Gordon Brown. If I had 32:14.278 --> 32:17.659 known this, I would have made arrests for 32:17.799 --> 32:23.961 obstruction of justice. Alex, what are the 32:24.041 --> 32:28.364 key societal ramifications when a significant 32:28.464 --> 32:32.206 portion of the public cannot reliably distinguish 32:32.246 --> 32:35.747 between trustworthy news outlets and those 32:35.848 --> 32:40.230 disseminating manipulated information? Considering 32:40.310 --> 32:43.492 the nature and the severity of these ramifications, 32:44.472 --> 32:47.774 can any potential positive outcome justify 32:48.772 --> 32:51.919 fundamentally dishonest practices in media. 32:56.906 --> 32:58.807 So when we talk about NGN, we're talking 32:58.847 --> 33:01.088 about, you know, more familiarly, the Murdoch 33:01.248 --> 33:06.110 Press. So for those of your listeners who 33:06.170 --> 33:09.791 don't know that, that ranges across the English 33:09.811 --> 33:12.693 speaking world. Sorry, it doesn't actually. 33:12.733 --> 33:14.853 I mean, Australia, the United States and 33:14.893 --> 33:17.635 Britain. And so of course, it includes grand 33:18.135 --> 33:19.835 trustworthy, you might think titles like 33:20.336 --> 33:22.116 the London Times and the Wall Street Journal, 33:22.196 --> 33:24.797 but it also includes Fox News and the Sun 33:24.877 --> 33:33.771 newspaper. And Fox News' role as a purportedly 33:34.372 --> 33:37.553 impartial traditional TV news service in 33:38.113 --> 33:42.194 spreading lies and hate in America, I think 33:42.254 --> 33:47.628 is well attested. And indeed, and in the 33:47.688 --> 33:49.710 instance that Gordon Brown was talking about, 33:50.471 --> 33:52.494 again, well known, I mean, goodness knows 33:52.514 --> 33:54.216 the Murdoch papers weren't the only ones 33:54.276 --> 33:56.679 invading privacy in that form and illegally 33:56.740 --> 33:58.342 as well. I mean, the mirror group ones were 33:58.362 --> 34:06.816 as well. I, in I think, I mean, the bar that 34:07.336 --> 34:09.457 tabloid or what we used to call tabloid journalists 34:09.757 --> 34:12.299 set themselves is always very low. If it's 34:12.319 --> 34:15.800 in the public interest, it's okay. And asked 34:16.140 --> 34:18.962 once to define the public interest, Kelvin 34:18.982 --> 34:23.056 McKenzie went, he's interesting. meaning 34:23.296 --> 34:26.138 a TV, a pop star or TV star, I'm interested 34:26.198 --> 34:28.459 in him, which is, of course, not not what 34:28.579 --> 34:30.481 the public interest means, but but it's how 34:30.501 --> 34:32.982 it's always been defined. And there's always 34:33.062 --> 34:37.786 been a notion. And you can kind of understand 34:37.846 --> 34:39.947 it when you look at authoritarian regimes 34:39.987 --> 34:42.349 that committing a crime in order to get the 34:42.429 --> 34:44.730 truth out is something a journalist should 34:44.770 --> 34:46.752 be able to do just as they should be able 34:46.792 --> 34:48.753 to protect their sources and so on. However, 34:48.833 --> 34:53.352 if you use those, if you use those standards, 34:53.452 --> 34:57.494 or those notions, in order just to produce 34:57.615 --> 35:00.696 entertainment, or indeed, lies that harm 35:00.736 --> 35:03.438 people, then that whole notion of giving 35:03.478 --> 35:07.381 a sort of laissez passer to to, to journalists 35:07.501 --> 35:10.262 to break the law for the public good falls 35:10.322 --> 35:12.324 apart. And I'm afraid that fell apart a very 35:12.364 --> 35:15.386 long time ago, at least in my country. The 35:15.406 --> 35:25.965 I mean, So, in a way, I think this sort of 35:26.025 --> 35:28.686 Gordon Brown and Tom Watson complaint from 35:28.706 --> 35:30.507 some years ago now is shutting the stable 35:30.528 --> 35:32.148 door after the horse is bolted. I mean, I 35:32.168 --> 35:35.070 mean, the media that you would hope to regulate 35:35.150 --> 35:40.774 is already in in terminal decline. So regulation 35:40.814 --> 35:44.996 of it now seems I don't think regulation, 35:45.016 --> 35:46.997 better regulation of it now is going to put 35:47.038 --> 35:50.797 it right. There's a new press standards organization 35:50.837 --> 35:52.458 that came out of these scandals in Britain, 35:52.498 --> 35:54.120 which has proved to be completely useless. 35:55.261 --> 35:58.083 And the Murdoch media and people like them 35:58.124 --> 36:00.005 haven't changed their way of doing business 36:00.546 --> 36:02.748 at all. I mean, there are certain specific 36:03.228 --> 36:06.191 parts of the law they know that they may 36:06.231 --> 36:07.952 be fined for breaking and they have been 36:07.992 --> 36:11.536 fined for breaking. But I don't see even 36:11.596 --> 36:15.731 back then that Our systems are very good 36:15.751 --> 36:17.652 at dealing with dishonesty in the media. 36:18.072 --> 36:21.115 And now I don't think the media in its new 36:21.315 --> 36:25.418 formats is controllable at all. We can't 36:25.478 --> 36:28.200 even properly tax the owners of the most 36:28.260 --> 36:29.861 significant media in the world, which is 36:30.201 --> 36:33.723 TikTok and Facebook and Instagram, let alone 36:34.184 --> 36:37.186 introduce some controls on them, even for 36:37.586 --> 36:40.108 the safety of children. That's failed in 36:40.148 --> 36:44.131 Britain. I'd hate to sound so, so depressive. 36:45.427 --> 36:48.048 I do have some positive thoughts about the 36:48.088 --> 36:49.829 future of the media, but we will get to that 36:49.889 --> 36:50.230 perhaps. 36:53.431 --> 36:56.713 The title of our podcast is Reimagining the 36:56.773 --> 37:00.075 Media in a Liberal Democracy in the Digital 37:00.195 --> 37:06.538 and AI Age. Thomas Carlyle's 1841 pronouncement 37:07.419 --> 37:10.830 of the press as the fourth estate surpassing 37:10.930 --> 37:13.251 even Parliament in importance, a concept 37:13.291 --> 37:16.072 he introduced earlier in the French Revolution, 37:17.293 --> 37:20.174 highlighted his belief in its pivotal role 37:20.374 --> 37:23.295 in fostering democracy through the spread 37:23.435 --> 37:27.897 of facts and opinions, even inspiring revolutions 37:27.997 --> 37:32.758 against oppression. Yet, the contemporary 37:32.838 --> 37:36.400 media landscape dominated by corporate journalism 37:37.248 --> 37:40.049 and a perceived lack of meaningful diversity 37:40.209 --> 37:43.070 due to the over-representation of journalists 37:43.470 --> 37:47.511 from elite institutions seems a stark departure 37:47.631 --> 37:51.853 from this vision, potentially rendering diversification 37:51.873 --> 37:56.334 efforts as mere public relations rather than 37:56.634 --> 38:02.896 genuine change. Alex, given our podcast's 38:03.196 --> 38:06.956 focus on the fourth estate, Let's explore 38:07.056 --> 38:11.240 a critical historical question. Did a lack 38:11.280 --> 38:15.464 of diverse voices in traditional media create 38:15.484 --> 38:18.787 a blind spot hindering its ability to understand 38:18.807 --> 38:24.672 the nuances of identity politics? Now, in 38:24.692 --> 38:28.876 the digital and AI age, social media has 38:28.956 --> 38:33.222 become the dominant platform How does this 38:33.362 --> 38:37.344 new reality, where algorithms, not editors, 38:38.245 --> 38:41.647 often determine what we see, fundamentally 38:41.747 --> 38:44.969 reshape the function and relevance of the 38:45.009 --> 38:45.770 fourth estate? 38:48.732 --> 38:49.952 Two questions, really. I mean, looking back 38:49.972 --> 38:51.834 at the history and then where we go now. 38:53.575 --> 38:59.478 I'd be the last person to underplay the failures 38:59.859 --> 39:04.932 of traditional media. to properly represent 39:05.012 --> 39:08.753 all voices. In London, with some boroughs 39:08.793 --> 39:13.214 which are more than 40-50% non-white, when 39:13.294 --> 39:16.815 I was a writer and an executive on the Evening 39:16.855 --> 39:18.535 Standard, the London newspaper, back in the 39:19.156 --> 39:21.616 90s, we thought of ourselves as a liberal 39:21.656 --> 39:24.057 newspaper that represented the whole city. 39:24.457 --> 39:26.538 There was one black reporter in the whole 39:26.618 --> 39:29.794 newsroom. Stephen Hugh Muir. He's a friend 39:29.834 --> 39:32.237 of mine. He's now number three on the Guardian 39:32.477 --> 39:35.301 comment editor. He absolutely insane. And 39:35.361 --> 39:37.083 you know, I remember, you know, we as young 39:37.183 --> 39:39.505 writers would talk about it, how mad this 39:39.566 --> 39:45.032 was. But we none of us got up on our chairs 39:45.112 --> 39:47.993 and shouted about it. And Steve, you know, 39:48.053 --> 39:52.255 Stephen and other people, you know, of colour, 39:52.295 --> 39:53.955 as we would have put it then, who worked 39:54.015 --> 39:56.796 there had a really difficult time, you know, 39:57.556 --> 39:59.397 it's, oh, this is a black story, you better 39:59.437 --> 40:01.277 go and do it, you know, because you're black. 40:01.337 --> 40:03.878 I mean, all the microaggressions and the 40:03.938 --> 40:05.819 micro racism and so on that, you know, we're 40:05.859 --> 40:10.248 now more aware of. But, you know, what I 40:10.288 --> 40:13.893 would say is, you know, that that that fervent 40:14.654 --> 40:19.480 media world in which in whatever it was, 38:48.732 --> 40:22.123 30% of all Londoners bought the Evening Standard 40:22.163 --> 40:27.535 and it was 120 pages, most editions, it's 40:27.575 --> 40:29.796 not disappeared. It's not even even in it's 40:29.836 --> 40:32.958 a handout once a week or something, but contained 40:33.018 --> 40:36.079 a huge variety of opinions, and, and, and 40:36.239 --> 40:38.780 are all under one banner. And we were proud 40:38.820 --> 40:41.262 of that. We said we're multicultural, a multi 40:41.362 --> 40:43.363 multi ethnic multicultural city, it needs 40:43.403 --> 40:45.504 all those voices in there. And we did try 40:45.524 --> 40:48.205 to all that's gone. And the problem with 40:48.485 --> 40:51.127 this kind of media that my children who are 40:51.147 --> 40:54.070 both politically interested in aware, consume, 40:54.751 --> 40:56.993 and my journalism students when I've taught 40:57.013 --> 41:01.678 journalism is it doesn't offer you two opinions. 41:02.639 --> 41:04.161 It offers you the opinion it thinks that 41:04.201 --> 41:06.984 you want to hear you don't get that old opinion 41:07.044 --> 41:08.866 pages on the one hand and on the other hand. 41:10.048 --> 41:11.770 Similarly, with the reporting they read, 41:11.790 --> 41:15.665 you The good thing about old school newspapers 41:15.725 --> 41:17.867 is we were talking before we started about 41:17.887 --> 41:22.172 about failures of reporting in Africa. back 41:22.232 --> 41:25.274 then, you would open the newspapers to read 41:25.294 --> 41:27.316 a story about your football team, but on 41:27.356 --> 41:29.217 an adjacent page, you'll be a story about 41:29.457 --> 41:32.760 famine in South Sudan, or, or, you know, 41:32.800 --> 41:36.422 democratic moves in South Africa, or, and 41:36.442 --> 41:38.224 you know, that's your entertain you read 41:38.264 --> 41:39.645 it, because it was sitting there, that's 41:39.745 --> 41:43.267 just gone. So Pete, so the new systems act 41:43.307 --> 41:49.692 to make us less, more ignorant, more opinionated, 41:49.812 --> 41:52.475 less aware of the others. other thoughts. 41:53.196 --> 41:58.759 So, but I mean, in terms of Well, I mean, 41:58.859 --> 42:01.021 I, you know, this is hugely in flux, isn't 42:01.121 --> 42:03.402 it? I mean, I mean, you know, we none of 42:03.462 --> 42:05.823 us heard of Tik Tok 10 years ago, or even 42:05.883 --> 42:08.865 less, the fact that politicians and I realize 42:08.905 --> 42:10.126 it's the most important way of getting the 42:10.146 --> 42:12.627 message out is kind of passed people my age 42:12.807 --> 42:14.728 by because we don't even understand how it 42:14.768 --> 42:17.810 works. But this is moving on. You know, there 42:17.910 --> 42:20.011 are, I do think, you know, it's always said 42:20.051 --> 42:23.493 that we journalists used to reject criticism 42:23.553 --> 42:25.835 going, going, you know, we only give you 42:25.895 --> 42:27.716 what you want, because we're commercial. 42:28.316 --> 42:30.257 And, and, and I think there is some truth 42:30.277 --> 42:32.599 in saying that the public get the media that 42:32.639 --> 42:36.642 they deserve and want. Possibly that's less 42:36.682 --> 42:41.425 true now. But, but I do see sparks of light 42:41.885 --> 42:45.167 where where media is really necessary. Things 42:45.227 --> 42:47.449 do happen this I mean, in Scotland, where 42:47.529 --> 42:51.221 I live, There are new online crowdfunded 42:51.461 --> 42:53.762 investigative newspapers, The Ferret is the 42:53.802 --> 42:55.563 great one in Scotland, coming up that do 42:55.623 --> 42:57.744 challenge in traditional ways, and they're 42:57.764 --> 42:59.764 mainly run by traditional journalists, but 42:59.784 --> 43:02.406 they've taken on the new ideas. So there's 43:02.446 --> 43:06.298 still affirm and to desire for desire for 43:06.338 --> 43:09.741 news and real, real information, that and 43:09.761 --> 43:11.623 there's more ability to satisfy that now. 43:11.643 --> 43:13.505 I mean, just as you can put out a podcast, 43:14.065 --> 43:16.928 it's, it's easier to leap than having to 43:16.968 --> 43:18.750 have a printing press and rolls of paper 43:18.830 --> 43:22.473 or a TV station. So there is hope there. 43:23.601 --> 43:28.125 I think what is worrying is, you know, this 43:28.206 --> 43:31.248 notion that you can get good news for free. 43:31.909 --> 43:35.332 And that so I had a kind of depressing year 43:35.372 --> 43:37.735 teaching a master's in journalism at one 43:37.775 --> 43:39.156 of Scotland's universities a few years ago. 43:39.176 --> 44:56.901 And I remember on day one, I mean, my 30 43:41.178 --> 43:42.840 master's students all intending to become 43:42.880 --> 43:44.121 journalists. And we went around the room 43:44.161 --> 43:46.423 and I said, who paid for their news this 43:46.483 --> 43:49.198 morning before you arrived? This is 10 years 43:49.218 --> 43:51.400 ago. And even then, one of them said, Well, 43:51.440 --> 43:54.642 I pay the license fee for the BBC in my flat. 43:54.722 --> 43:57.604 So I suppose nobody had paid for their news. 43:58.204 --> 43:59.725 You go, Well, how do you expect people to 43:59.765 --> 44:02.607 pay your salary? And that's deteriorated. 44:04.699 --> 44:06.942 So I think the new reality, to go back to 44:06.962 --> 44:09.124 your question, the algorithms, not editors, 44:09.785 --> 44:12.347 it has already fundamentally reshaped the 44:12.868 --> 44:15.050 fourth estate, the mainstream media, the 44:15.090 --> 44:17.413 traditional news media, it is it is kind 44:17.453 --> 44:19.455 of gone. We're seeing the death throes, I 44:19.495 --> 44:24.060 would say. But humans need good information. 44:24.100 --> 44:28.825 Democracy needs good information. yeah i 44:28.965 --> 44:31.066 i buy newspapers across the i mean i have 44:31.086 --> 44:32.707 subscriptions to newspapers across the world 44:32.727 --> 44:34.608 that i would never that i don't read because 44:35.148 --> 44:37.650 it's that seems to be part of a good way 44:37.710 --> 44:41.152 to give in order to support democracy and 44:41.172 --> 44:43.633 and keep the notion that the fourth estate 44:43.693 --> 44:48.096 is crucial as carlisle put it crucial to 44:48.136 --> 44:54.720 a healthy happy happy society alive it is 44:54.860 --> 44:56.901 my understanding that all proceeds 44:57.836 --> 45:01.358 from your book, Blood Legacy, Reckoning with 45:01.518 --> 45:05.359 a Family Story of Slavery, are entirely dedicated 45:05.419 --> 45:08.201 to various organizations that seek to address 45:08.361 --> 45:11.282 the modern legacies of the transatlantic 45:11.702 --> 45:15.544 enslavement period. This includes support 45:15.624 --> 45:19.686 for educational needs and anti-racism initiatives. 45:21.367 --> 45:24.428 Could you speak more about the specific types 45:24.468 --> 45:26.529 of organizations you've chosen to support? 45:27.500 --> 45:31.702 For instance, what drew you to focus on educational 45:31.762 --> 45:35.645 needs and anti-racism initiatives as key 45:35.805 --> 45:38.006 areas for your book's proceeds? 45:38.786 --> 45:41.688 Yes, I should say, as a slavery isn't a charity 45:41.708 --> 45:44.109 and it doesn't collect or distribute money, 45:44.670 --> 45:48.292 but if you, so my book has a website, the 45:48.392 --> 45:51.513 Blood Legacy has a website, bloodlegacybook.com 45:51.573 --> 45:53.795 or .org, I can't remember. And that has a 45:53.855 --> 45:57.176 list there of the charitable organizations 45:57.356 --> 45:59.337 or quasi charitable organizations to which 45:59.417 --> 46:02.118 my members of my family and I are giving, 46:02.158 --> 46:03.819 including, as you say, the proceeds from 46:03.839 --> 46:05.980 the book. I couldn't possibly have... I mean, 46:06.000 --> 46:08.021 quite often in book festivals people go, 46:08.601 --> 46:10.242 but aren't you just making more money out 46:10.302 --> 46:12.723 of slavery with this book? And I go, no, 46:12.843 --> 46:15.504 I'm not. I give the proceeds away. It was 46:15.544 --> 46:16.905 kind of an obvious one from the beginning 46:16.925 --> 46:20.945 of that. And so there's a page in that website 46:21.025 --> 46:22.707 and on the Heirs of Slavery website called 46:22.767 --> 46:26.009 Repair or Reparations, which lists organizations. 46:27.050 --> 46:29.852 The choices I made were partly geographic. 46:30.052 --> 46:32.815 The family and I wanted to support people 46:33.655 --> 46:35.557 in Jamaica and Tobago where our family had 46:35.637 --> 46:38.699 enslaved people. So we might in some way 46:38.739 --> 46:40.861 feel we were directly affecting their descendants. 46:41.161 --> 46:43.043 So that was one choice. So it's Tobago and 46:43.063 --> 46:44.964 Jamaica focused. But then there's a lot of 46:46.121 --> 46:48.582 organizations doing youth support work and 46:48.642 --> 46:50.663 educational work, as you say, in Britain 46:50.963 --> 46:53.424 and in London. There are 400,000 people in 46:53.464 --> 46:56.044 Britain who are descendants of the enslaved. 46:57.545 --> 47:02.927 Leaving that geographic thing aside, which 47:02.987 --> 47:06.028 is choice, I ask people who are descendants 47:06.048 --> 47:07.989 from the enslaved, where do you think the 47:08.029 --> 47:10.943 money would be best spent? mean, what? I 47:11.183 --> 47:14.266 mean, you know, in many ways, it's their 47:14.306 --> 47:17.108 money. I mean, it's if I'm richer than they 47:17.248 --> 47:20.291 are. I mean, I didn't directly. I don't live 47:20.331 --> 47:22.292 in any of the houses my family built, you 47:22.312 --> 47:24.514 know, and I didn't inherit anything, but 47:24.694 --> 47:28.037 I did inherit privilege. So it seems absolutely 47:28.077 --> 47:30.139 right to ask them how it should be spent. 47:30.179 --> 47:35.400 And that's what we do. I do. And we do. But 47:35.500 --> 47:38.582 in education, particularly in Britain, where 47:38.842 --> 47:42.203 black children are systemically disadvantaged, 47:42.683 --> 47:45.444 it seems key. There's a very good charity 47:45.464 --> 47:47.585 called Kairi Foundation that lots of us heirs 47:47.605 --> 47:50.707 of slavery people support, but specifically 47:50.867 --> 47:53.728 offers scholarships for disadvantaged black 47:53.768 --> 47:56.169 youth to get into the top universities, the 47:56.209 --> 47:57.609 Russell Group, and then support them while 47:57.629 --> 47:59.650 they're there, because the dropout rate can 47:59.670 --> 48:02.271 be very challenging. for people particularly 48:02.291 --> 48:04.532 from a poor ground to arrive in a grand elite 48:04.632 --> 48:06.472 university, to support them while they're 48:06.492 --> 48:11.813 there. Things like that. You say reparations, 48:11.833 --> 48:14.653 I mean I increasingly try to be careful with 48:14.673 --> 48:18.534 that word. It's very politicized. I say repair. 48:19.854 --> 48:22.975 Reparations I think you need to leave, it's 48:22.995 --> 48:25.915 not linguistically correct, but leave to 48:26.495 --> 48:29.996 the national reparations ask of the CARICOM 48:30.016 --> 48:35.426 nations. repair covers a whole, a much broader 48:36.467 --> 48:42.652 set of possibilities to improve global love 48:42.892 --> 48:46.135 and peace, I would say. And of course, repair 48:46.155 --> 48:48.857 for colonial ills isn't just about West Africa 48:48.937 --> 48:53.200 and the Caribbean. It's, I mean, India, the 48:53.260 --> 48:55.362 Asian nations have an awful lot to ask of 48:55.442 --> 48:59.786 Britain as well. Yeah, I mean, so the challenges 48:59.806 --> 49:05.968 in facing this, I mean, there's not enough 49:05.988 --> 49:08.471 money. I mean, you know, I suppose, but it's, 49:09.673 --> 49:12.236 it's really encouraging how people come forward 49:12.276 --> 49:15.080 and get this as a notion, people who know 49:15.140 --> 49:17.222 that they, their ancestors were enriched 49:17.302 --> 49:21.034 by enslavement. that it's doable. You know, 49:21.194 --> 49:24.296 it's, and I think far more, I think in a 49:24.336 --> 49:27.237 lot of the, in terms of the enslaved that 49:27.277 --> 49:29.519 I speak to would say, the first thing is 49:29.539 --> 49:31.840 the acknowledgement. That's the most important 49:31.880 --> 49:33.461 thing you're going to after all these years, 49:34.461 --> 49:36.822 nearly 200 years since slavery was abolished 49:36.842 --> 49:38.203 to most of the British Empire, you're going 49:38.223 --> 49:41.864 to stop denying its significance or its extent, 49:42.504 --> 49:43.985 and you're going to start acknowledging and 49:44.225 --> 49:48.347 apologizing. Apologies go much further than 49:48.427 --> 49:49.147 people imagine. 49:52.468 --> 49:55.529 And finally, Alex, please advise our listeners 49:55.589 --> 49:57.890 where they may find your book, Blood Legacy. 49:58.871 --> 50:02.909 Oh, well, that's very kind. So it is available 50:02.949 --> 50:06.552 on all the usual websites as Amazon, obviously, 50:06.933 --> 50:09.174 and bookshop.org. I encourage people to use 50:09.194 --> 50:12.117 I'm not great, very keen on Amazon. And for 50:12.517 --> 50:13.858 reasons that I'm sure you'll understand, 50:14.358 --> 50:17.080 it's downloadable on the usual sites also 50:17.181 --> 50:20.823 as a Kindle and so on as an audio book. I 50:20.883 --> 50:24.286 do, I do quite a lot of people write to me 50:24.306 --> 50:27.133 going, I can't afford it. And I'm a descendant 50:27.173 --> 50:29.073 of this history. And so I, if you do that, 50:29.113 --> 50:30.554 I will, if I've got some spare copies, I 50:30.574 --> 50:34.235 will send you one. So any, any particularly, 50:34.615 --> 50:36.376 and a lot of people in Jamaica and Tobago, 50:36.396 --> 50:39.877 I've sent copies to until they run out. But 50:40.937 --> 50:43.138 yeah, and do write to me. I mean, blood, 50:43.318 --> 50:46.039 blood legacy book. I'm just checking blood 50:46.079 --> 50:51.241 legacy book.org. I think it is. It's a misused 50:51.321 --> 50:56.996 term that isn't it.org.org. I think it's 50:57.236 --> 51:01.399 .com. It's bloodlegacybook.com. Do write 51:01.419 --> 51:02.099 to me via that. 51:04.681 --> 51:07.603 Alex Renton, thank you very much for being 51:07.643 --> 51:09.104 a guest on this podcast. 51:11.605 --> 51:13.266 Thank you, Stephen. It's a great pleasure. 51:13.286 --> 51:16.728 And it was such a luxury to go into issues 51:16.808 --> 51:18.949 in such detail. I've enjoyed myself. 51:21.371 --> 51:23.892 This podcast was brought to you by The Kamugasa 51:23.912 --> 51:26.550 Challenge. in partnership with Democracy 51:26.650 --> 51:30.671 in Africa. Democracy in Africa is a platform 51:30.711 --> 51:33.753 dedicated to building a bridge between academics, 51:34.673 --> 51:37.734 policymakers, practitioners, and citizens. 51:39.555 --> 51:42.076 We dedicate this episode to the journalists 51:42.116 --> 51:45.297 who have fallen in pursuit of truth, those 51:45.337 --> 51:49.079 whose pens, cameras, and voices bore witness 51:49.739 --> 51:53.487 in the darkest corners of our world. in Gaza 51:53.847 --> 51:56.908 and beyond. They stood between silence and 51:57.068 --> 51:59.729 accountability, often at the cost of their 51:59.829 --> 52:03.970 own lives. May their courage remind us that 52:04.010 --> 52:06.630 the free press is not merely a pillar of 52:06.710 --> 52:12.092 democracy. It is its conscience. We honor 52:12.112 --> 52:14.912 their memory and recommit ourselves to the 52:15.412 --> 52:20.511 ethical imagination they embodied. The sixth 52:20.692 --> 52:23.514 and final episode in our leadership series, 52:23.614 --> 52:27.177 entitled Leadership in a Multipolar New World 52:27.337 --> 52:30.520 Order, an interview with Lord Peter Hain, 52:31.941 --> 52:34.744 a British politician who served as Secretary 52:34.764 --> 52:36.666 of State for Northern Ireland from 2005 to 51:21.371 --> 52:40.269 2007, Secretary of State for Work and Pensions 52:41.069 --> 52:47.834 from 2007 to 2008, and twice as Secretary 52:47.854 --> 52:53.877 of State for Wales from 2002 to 2008 and 52:53.957 --> 52:58.740 from 2009 to 2010. The podcast will go live 52:58.920 --> 53:03.222 on December 15th, 2025. If you enjoyed this 53:03.302 --> 53:05.623 podcast, please click the share button in 53:05.663 --> 53:08.564 your app to send this episode to a friend. 53:10.045 --> 53:12.086 Thank you very much for taking the time to 53:12.126 --> 53:14.907 listen to this podcast. Until next time, 53:15.688 --> 53:16.168 goodbye.