WEBVTT 00:00.449 --> 00:03.270 Welcome back to Conversations with Stephen 00:03.290 --> 00:08.851 Kamugasa. This is the third episode in our 00:00.449 --> 00:12.972 2025 Leadership Series. Today's guest is 00:13.032 --> 00:15.752 a great friend of this podcast, Sir Jonathon 00:15.832 --> 00:20.353 Porritt, CBE. Sir Jonathon is a well-known 00:20.433 --> 00:23.954 British writer, broadcaster, and environmentalist. 00:25.094 --> 00:28.215 Whenever the name Jonathon Porritt is mentioned, 00:28.953 --> 00:33.155 People often say to me, ah, yes, that chap 00:33.195 --> 00:35.376 who keeps banging on about the environment. 00:36.336 --> 00:39.598 I believe it is unfair to pigeonhole him 00:40.238 --> 00:43.400 in this way. While Sir Jonathon is indeed 00:43.420 --> 00:46.721 a leading voice on the environment, framing 00:46.761 --> 00:49.743 him solely through that lens overlooks his 00:49.923 --> 00:52.924 extensive 50-year contribution to the full 00:53.044 --> 00:57.160 scope of sustainability. His impact extends 00:57.280 --> 01:00.841 deeply into social dimensions, such as health 01:01.441 --> 01:07.004 and social justice. As a consistent and influential 01:07.144 --> 01:10.365 advocate, he has shaped the sustainability 01:10.445 --> 01:15.747 agenda across political, corporate, and non-governmental 01:15.927 --> 01:19.789 landscapes. His career highlights are explored 01:20.389 --> 01:24.493 in our 2023 podcast, Climate Change, The 01:24.533 --> 01:27.274 New Apocalypse, which I strongly encourage 01:27.334 --> 01:31.456 you to listen to. In this episode, we discuss 01:31.476 --> 01:35.178 the topic, Climate Leadership in a Multipolar 01:35.218 --> 01:38.920 New World Order. So Jonathon Porat, welcome. 01:41.281 --> 01:43.462 Thank you, Stephen. Very good to be joining 01:43.502 --> 01:46.403 you again. I certainly enjoyed our first 01:46.443 --> 01:47.784 conversation, that's for sure. 01:50.085 --> 01:51.966 I had the pleasure of reviewing your book, 01:52.551 --> 01:56.372 Hope in Hell: A Decade to Confront the Climate 01:55.912 --> 01:59.892 Crisis. And in a podcast conversation we 01:59.952 --> 02:03.873 had together in 2023, you stressed the importance 02:03.933 --> 02:06.333 of fighting for the young people because 02:06.493 --> 02:09.654 it is they who are most disproportionately 02:09.774 --> 02:13.195 affected by the climate emergency. That's 02:13.255 --> 02:15.935 why I was very impressed to learn that you 02:16.055 --> 02:18.556 spent the lion's share of 2024 working with 02:21.178 --> 02:24.900 and listening to the voices of young Just 02:24.920 --> 02:29.263 Stop Oil activists with a view to publishing 02:29.303 --> 02:33.886 a new book titled Climate Justice. Jonathon, 02:34.707 --> 02:37.209 can you please share with us the general 02:37.309 --> 02:40.291 thrust of your new book, Climate Justice? 02:41.091 --> 02:42.292 When will you publish the book? 02:44.133 --> 02:47.676 The book will be published in July, so not 02:47.736 --> 02:51.238 very far away now. And as you say, Stephen, 02:51.258 --> 02:53.460 I've been working on this for the last year 02:53.680 --> 02:57.823 or more with young activists involved in 02:58.043 --> 03:01.085 the direct action campaigning of Just Stop 03:01.206 --> 03:04.990 Oil. Obviously, Just Stop Oil is a controversial 03:05.010 --> 03:09.473 organization. It excites a lot of very divergent 03:09.513 --> 03:13.716 views about tactics in today's climate movement, 03:14.217 --> 03:17.679 with some people understanding the deep motivation 03:17.759 --> 03:21.722 behind what Just Stop Oil does, but suspicious 03:22.062 --> 03:25.685 of or nervous about some of the tactics used. 03:26.186 --> 03:28.767 So for me, being able to engage directly 03:28.908 --> 03:31.009 with many of those people involved in those 03:31.149 --> 03:35.092 actions nine of whom have spent time in prison 03:35.412 --> 03:37.774 during the course of the last year, either 03:37.934 --> 03:42.096 on sentence or on remand, has been actually 03:42.116 --> 03:45.098 a remarkable experience for me. I mean, really 03:45.238 --> 03:49.204 energizing to spend time with a group of 03:49.284 --> 03:53.368 incredibly principled, bright, forward-looking 03:53.789 --> 03:58.794 individuals, nearly all of them under the 03:58.814 --> 04:02.218 age of 28. And to see things through their 04:02.338 --> 04:04.260 eyes, Stephen, that's basically what I think 04:04.320 --> 04:08.018 intergenerational justice asks of us. is 04:08.038 --> 04:09.979 that we don't just see things through our 04:10.059 --> 04:12.301 own eyes, but we're prepared to put ourselves 04:12.361 --> 04:15.222 in the shoes of other people, in this instance, 04:15.863 --> 04:17.924 young people looking forward to the second 04:17.964 --> 04:20.946 half of this century, not just the next couple 04:20.966 --> 04:23.567 of decades, and to see things differently 04:23.607 --> 04:24.908 as a consequence of doing that. 04:26.049 --> 04:28.650 You very kindly shared with me the outline 04:28.850 --> 04:32.152 of your book, Climate Justice, and this caught 04:32.192 --> 04:35.747 my eye. It is as follows, and I quote, Even 04:35.867 --> 04:38.510 though governments have just as much access 04:38.550 --> 04:42.474 to the whole truth about accelerating climate 04:42.494 --> 04:46.458 change as campaigners, they have mostly chosen 04:46.498 --> 04:50.641 to double down on institutional denial, not 04:50.702 --> 04:54.045 so much denying the science as denying its 04:54.205 --> 04:57.968 implications and rejecting the case for accelerated 04:58.509 --> 05:02.228 radical change. Please explain what you mean 05:02.329 --> 05:05.931 by institutional denial in terms an ordinary 05:05.991 --> 05:09.034 person can understand. What are the most 05:09.174 --> 05:12.636 effective strategies for overcoming denial 05:12.997 --> 05:17.260 of climate change and fostering policy action? 05:19.642 --> 05:22.264 I think one of the biggest changes that we've 05:22.404 --> 05:26.407 seen, Stephen, over the last decade or more, 05:26.907 --> 05:29.851 is that those people who once used to deny 05:29.891 --> 05:32.794 the science of climate change, the actual 05:32.954 --> 05:35.797 empirical evidence about the way in which 05:35.917 --> 05:40.082 many aspects of our climate and our planet 05:40.442 --> 05:42.905 are changing, that doesn't happen very much 05:43.005 --> 05:44.987 these days. It still does in America. You've 05:45.007 --> 05:49.411 still got a strong overt climate denial movement 05:49.692 --> 05:53.134 in America led, if you can call it that, 05:53.675 --> 05:56.397 by President Trump himself. But elsewhere 05:56.437 --> 05:59.940 in the world, outright science-based denialism 06:00.060 --> 06:03.663 or anti-science doesn't really exist. But 06:03.703 --> 06:07.006 what we see is a refusal to accept what that 06:07.226 --> 06:10.248 science is actually telling us about the 06:10.309 --> 06:12.490 speed with which we now need to change our 06:12.550 --> 06:15.693 model of progress, our economy, the way in 06:15.733 --> 06:18.495 which we create growth and development for 06:18.535 --> 06:21.838 people, and so on. And that's where the denial 06:21.938 --> 06:24.540 is, not around the science itself, but a 06:24.580 --> 06:27.202 denial as to the way in which we need now 06:27.322 --> 06:31.890 to accept what that science is really telling. 06:31.990 --> 06:34.250 So we don't have decades to play with. We 06:34.330 --> 06:38.011 have very few years left to do what we really 06:38.191 --> 06:42.492 need to do. We have to use all the levers 06:42.552 --> 06:45.633 of government to make the changes required 06:45.813 --> 06:47.974 in a much shorter period of time than people 06:48.014 --> 06:50.174 are talking about. Most people think we can 06:50.214 --> 06:52.595 just carry on more or less as usual until 05:19.642 --> 06:56.536 2050. We can't. We have to do what we need 06:56.576 --> 06:59.778 to do in the next decade. And it has to embrace 06:59.818 --> 07:02.462 the whole of society. Politicians are very, 07:03.163 --> 07:06.688 very bad at engaging with people to explain 07:07.029 --> 07:10.634 what is happening, to explain the importance 07:10.674 --> 07:12.677 of that for people, families, communities, 07:12.977 --> 07:15.850 the country. the whole of humankind, and 07:15.910 --> 07:18.552 then to move on from a better engagement 07:18.572 --> 07:21.554 with people to laying out the policy options 07:21.614 --> 07:25.256 for change in energy policy, transport, in 07:25.317 --> 07:28.879 manufacturing, in the whole business of food 07:28.899 --> 07:31.100 and farming. So actually getting to grips 07:31.281 --> 07:33.942 with the transformation that is now required. 07:34.243 --> 07:36.524 And politicians won't do that. They just 07:36.624 --> 07:38.826 aren't doing that engagement work. And that's 07:38.886 --> 07:41.948 where the denial lies, unfortunately. 07:43.922 --> 07:46.524 You also suggest in the outline that, and 07:46.604 --> 07:50.367 I quote, the UK has become the most repressive 07:50.487 --> 07:55.671 state among OECD countries. New laws introduced 07:55.771 --> 08:46.654 by the Conservative government since 2022 07:59.735 --> 08:03.037 have given the police and the courts unprecedented 08:03.157 --> 08:06.129 powers. the full weight of those new laws, 08:06.629 --> 08:46.654 has been seen in action throughout 2024, 08:08.869 --> 08:13.351 with defendants in court silenced and multi-year 08:13.411 --> 08:17.392 prison sentences regularly handed down. Now, 08:18.192 --> 08:22.914 in December 2024, a 77-year-old grandmother 08:22.994 --> 08:25.615 was recalled to prison after her wrists were 08:25.655 --> 08:30.359 too small for an electronic tag. The UK is 08:30.439 --> 08:33.482 by no means unique in its hostility to climate 08:33.642 --> 08:38.126 activism. Jonathon, how can the international 08:38.166 --> 08:41.569 community support climate change activists 08:41.949 --> 08:45.373 acting, facing legal repression in their 08:45.473 --> 08:46.654 own respective countries? 08:48.422 --> 08:51.244 There's been a marked shift over the last 08:51.344 --> 08:54.686 couple of years in many countries, cracking 08:54.746 --> 08:58.849 down on the right to protest about the climate 08:59.569 --> 09:03.512 and making it much harder for people to express 09:03.572 --> 09:07.354 their their freedom to speak out about these 09:07.414 --> 09:09.755 problems and to protest as a consequence 09:09.815 --> 09:12.297 of that. And the UK, the comment I made there, 09:12.317 --> 09:14.698 Stephen, the UK unfortunately has introduced 09:14.738 --> 09:17.860 some of the most draconian legislation anywhere 09:18.120 --> 09:21.182 in the world. So more activists are arrested 09:21.242 --> 09:24.404 here in the UK than almost any other country 09:24.465 --> 09:28.207 in the world. And The way in which the courts 09:28.247 --> 09:31.330 have responded to that has been equally repressive. 09:31.951 --> 09:34.413 So we now have a number of judges here in 09:34.453 --> 09:37.876 the UK who won't allow defendants charged 09:38.016 --> 09:42.580 with public order, nuisance offences, criminal 09:42.640 --> 09:45.983 damage, won't allow those defendants to explain 09:46.083 --> 09:49.266 what their motivations were in doing what 09:49.286 --> 09:51.348 they did. They won't allow them to talk about 09:51.488 --> 09:53.722 climate change. And of course, we've seen 09:53.762 --> 09:56.744 very harsh sentences handed down, as you 09:56.784 --> 09:59.306 said. I think the international community 09:59.346 --> 10:02.107 has been pretty astonished by that. Michel 10:02.208 --> 10:05.010 Forst, who is the UN's Special Rapporteur 10:05.610 --> 10:08.352 for Environmental Defenders, has visited 10:08.392 --> 10:12.415 the UK on several occasions and has commented 10:12.515 --> 10:17.158 explicitly on the way in which the UK now 10:17.879 --> 10:23.845 is overreaching has become excessively repressive 10:24.625 --> 10:27.987 in trying to eliminate that form of protest 10:28.127 --> 10:32.028 in society today and has, through its new 10:32.869 --> 10:36.551 acts of parliament, introduced a very hostile 10:37.311 --> 10:40.172 regime indeed for people who are deeply concerned 10:40.212 --> 10:42.253 about climate change and want to make their 10:42.814 --> 10:45.595 concern known to others. So the international 10:45.615 --> 10:48.436 community is alert to what has happened here. 10:48.476 --> 10:51.006 It's not the only country. Similarly, in 10:51.126 --> 10:53.708 the USA, we've seen really repressive measures 10:53.768 --> 10:56.270 introduced at the state level to clamp down 10:56.370 --> 10:59.892 on campaigners. And there's a less friendly 11:00.033 --> 11:02.755 atmosphere now about climate protest in many 11:02.795 --> 11:05.357 parts of the world, in the European Union, 11:05.497 --> 11:08.339 in Australia, in many parts of Africa, for 11:08.379 --> 11:11.621 instance, a very lively and I think inspiring 11:11.701 --> 11:16.180 group in Uganda, headed up by young people 11:16.240 --> 11:19.162 there protesting against the new pipeline, 11:19.242 --> 11:22.285 the East Africa pipeline. And what we've 11:22.365 --> 11:24.907 seen, of course, is that these repressive 11:24.987 --> 11:29.290 laws just make it harder for the public to 11:29.330 --> 11:30.851 understand what's going on, because they're 11:30.911 --> 11:35.095 not hearing the truth about it from the principal 11:35.255 --> 11:38.277 actors, the main agents involved in protest 11:38.337 --> 11:38.858 and dissent. 11:39.879 --> 11:42.521 We're doing something new in this episode. 11:43.502 --> 11:46.324 I have invited three people to each contribute 11:46.444 --> 11:50.227 a question or two. And the first contributor 11:50.407 --> 11:54.430 is Tim Smedley. Tim Smedley is an award-winning 11:54.510 --> 11:58.173 sustainability journalist, copywriter, author, 11:58.353 --> 12:01.715 and speaker. Tim is also the editor of the 12:01.776 --> 12:05.031 New Climate on Medium. The New Climate is 12:05.071 --> 12:07.393 the only publication for climate action, 12:08.113 --> 12:11.556 covering the environment, biodiversity, net 12:11.656 --> 12:15.539 zero, renewable energy, and regeneration 12:15.979 --> 12:19.622 approaches. Tim's recent book is The Last 12:19.822 --> 12:23.825 Drop, Solving the World's Water Crisis. Tim's 12:23.905 --> 12:28.429 questions are as follows. What do you think 12:28.729 --> 12:31.793 about the current duty-bound project? from 12:31.853 --> 12:34.735 the new climate, which asks whether climate 12:34.795 --> 12:38.698 scientists are now duty bound to engage in 12:38.898 --> 12:42.321 activism and direct action in order to get 12:42.461 --> 12:47.945 the message heard. And has the cause benefited 12:48.225 --> 12:52.328 or suffered as a result of just stop oil 12:52.388 --> 12:57.151 protesters acts, such as hurling soup on 12:57.171 --> 13:00.494 the glass of a Van Gogh artwork or paint, 13:01.348 --> 13:05.610 or powder during athletic events? How can 13:05.710 --> 13:09.432 we normalize the cause and bring it into 13:09.592 --> 13:13.614 mainstream consciousness at a speed required? 13:16.036 --> 13:19.077 Yes, I really respond to these questions 13:19.137 --> 13:22.379 from Tim, Smedley, Stephen, I think they're 13:22.399 --> 13:25.301 spot on. It is interesting, there's a big 13:25.341 --> 13:27.782 divide in the science, the climate science 13:27.902 --> 13:31.931 community, to be honest. And a growing number 13:31.971 --> 13:34.792 of scientists do feel that they are now duty 13:34.812 --> 13:38.914 bound to go over and above the work that 13:38.954 --> 13:41.234 they do as scientists, as researchers, as 13:41.755 --> 13:44.776 advocates for change, as communicators, as 13:44.856 --> 13:47.117 educationists, and so on, and to go to the 13:47.157 --> 13:51.699 next step and to take part in some kind of 13:52.159 --> 13:54.340 civil disobedience, activism of one kind 13:54.360 --> 13:57.141 or another. And we have a number of initiatives 13:57.181 --> 14:00.022 here. We have scientists rebel. which has 14:00.082 --> 14:03.364 been a very important and vocal organization. 14:03.544 --> 14:04.925 And of course, right back at the time of 14:04.945 --> 14:06.966 Extinction Rebellion, we had scientists for 14:07.526 --> 14:09.767 XR, for Extinction Rebellion, who in fact, 14:09.807 --> 14:11.748 Stephen, have just brought out a really interesting 14:12.569 --> 14:16.791 new book called Scientists on Survival. And 14:16.851 --> 14:19.992 these are the personal testimonies of many 14:20.393 --> 14:23.354 individual scientists involved in frontline 14:23.754 --> 14:26.276 activism of that kind. So there's a strong 14:27.236 --> 14:29.798 There's a strong group of scientists around 14:29.838 --> 14:32.120 the world very involved in this, but it has 14:32.140 --> 14:34.942 to be said that the majority of the climate 14:34.962 --> 14:38.645 science community does not take part in direct 14:38.745 --> 14:40.966 action of that kind and somehow feels that 14:41.026 --> 14:45.710 it would weaken their role as authoritative 14:46.070 --> 14:48.912 voices in often complex and controversial 14:48.972 --> 14:51.754 scientific areas and have felt that that 14:51.834 --> 14:53.796 would be inappropriate for them to behave 14:53.836 --> 14:56.017 like that. So they do not feel duty-bound. 14:57.168 --> 15:00.609 to extend their existing commitment to the 15:00.689 --> 15:03.250 truth being told and heard about the climate 15:03.651 --> 15:07.612 by engaging in activity of that kind. And 15:07.632 --> 15:11.591 I must admit, I I think Tim would probably 15:11.651 --> 15:13.973 back me up here. I asked myself the question, 15:14.013 --> 15:16.715 why is it that relatively few scientists 15:16.855 --> 15:20.358 still feel called on to do that, to do that 15:20.578 --> 15:23.500 stepping up to a higher level of action? 15:23.540 --> 15:26.603 They're all so knowledgeable about what's 15:26.643 --> 15:30.306 happening. They can see the horrible things 15:30.366 --> 15:32.247 that are waiting us down the track. They 15:32.327 --> 15:35.249 know that given the warming we've already 15:35.330 --> 15:37.531 put into the atmosphere, that the consequences 15:37.791 --> 15:41.495 already for humankind are going to be traumatic 15:41.875 --> 15:44.596 and deadly for many hundreds of millions 15:44.676 --> 15:46.496 of people. And they can see that if we go 15:46.536 --> 15:48.697 on down this path, the consequences are going 15:48.737 --> 15:51.537 to be even more apocalyptic than that. So 15:51.578 --> 15:54.798 they sit with this truth much more than the 15:54.878 --> 15:57.759 average individual can possibly do. And they're 15:57.799 --> 16:00.419 often themselves parents with children or 16:01.160 --> 16:03.320 with grandparents or grandparents with grandchildren. 16:03.880 --> 16:06.501 So they have a personal stake in this as 16:06.561 --> 16:11.782 well. I share in the questioning of why more 16:11.842 --> 16:14.623 scientists are not on the front line. Now 16:14.683 --> 16:16.144 maybe, and I think this was Tim's second 16:16.184 --> 16:19.145 question, maybe they're put off by some of 16:19.205 --> 16:21.206 the tactics of Just Stop Oil. I've met a 16:21.246 --> 16:23.967 lot of people who are put off and don't really 16:24.007 --> 16:27.389 understand the point of some of the actions 16:27.429 --> 16:29.270 that they take, the soup throwing or the 16:30.740 --> 16:34.282 activity at Stonehenge or historic places, 16:34.342 --> 16:36.663 whatever it might be. And the answer to that 16:36.923 --> 16:39.304 isn't simple, Stephen. But the answer is 16:39.344 --> 16:42.746 that in this weird world that we live in 16:42.826 --> 16:47.368 now, trying to get attention of decision 16:47.408 --> 16:51.370 makers to focus on the climate crisis is 16:51.750 --> 16:55.468 unbelievably difficult. I know that because 16:55.508 --> 16:58.510 I've taken part in many conventional campaigning 16:58.570 --> 17:00.971 initiatives myself and I'm now very involved 17:01.031 --> 17:03.732 working with those who say that's not enough, 17:03.892 --> 17:06.333 we're not getting that attention and therefore 17:06.353 --> 17:09.635 we need to commit to direct action, non-violent 17:09.695 --> 17:12.656 direct action as an expression of civil disobedience. 17:13.237 --> 17:15.358 And the truth is that every single one of 17:15.418 --> 17:19.319 those actions and a lot of the people you've 17:19.419 --> 17:21.660 referred to there Stephen are involved in 17:21.700 --> 17:25.363 the 26 young campaigners I've been working 17:25.403 --> 17:27.305 with, every single one of those actions is 17:27.385 --> 17:31.248 basically saying, look, you have to pay attention 17:31.288 --> 17:33.991 to this. It's really urgent. You can't go 17:34.091 --> 17:36.693 on ignoring it or at least putting it to 17:36.813 --> 17:39.036 one side rather than putting the main focus 17:39.096 --> 17:41.938 upon it. So in an age where attention really 17:42.038 --> 17:45.720 matters, where what you can get through the 17:45.760 --> 17:48.342 media, the mainstream media, is the mechanism, 17:48.382 --> 17:51.184 principle mechanism you have for waking people 17:51.424 --> 17:54.166 up to this astonishing crisis. That's why 17:54.226 --> 17:56.788 all of those actions are, in my opinion, 17:57.328 --> 18:00.550 justified in their own terms and have actually 18:00.630 --> 18:04.113 succeeded in jolting a lot of politicians 18:04.353 --> 18:07.315 into increased awareness and increased action 18:07.735 --> 18:09.497 in some cases than would otherwise have been 18:09.517 --> 18:09.837 the case. 18:11.581 --> 18:14.302 The second contributor is Barbara Williams, 18:15.183 --> 18:18.324 the Fellow of the RSA in London. Barbara 18:18.384 --> 18:21.486 has been a climate and environmental activist 18:21.626 --> 18:25.207 since 2019. She has published a book titled, 18:25.828 --> 19:03.401 Saving Us from Ourselves, Can We Repair 50 18:29.409 --> 18:33.871 Years of Ecological Overshoot? She also runs 18:33.951 --> 18:37.193 a website, Poems for Parliament, a global 18:37.313 --> 18:41.188 aspiration for ecological justice. Barbara's 18:41.248 --> 18:45.191 questions are as follows. How can we set 18:45.271 --> 18:49.093 ourselves incentives to reduce GDP equitably 18:49.873 --> 18:52.915 until our global economy is back within the 18:52.995 --> 18:57.257 carrying capacity of earth? And why don't 18:57.297 --> 19:00.960 we design economic algorithms that ensure 19:01.280 --> 19:03.401 equitable wealth distribution? 19:06.808 --> 19:08.996 Well, Barbara's gone to the heart of the 19:09.156 --> 19:11.224 issue here, Stephen. There's no question 19:11.284 --> 19:14.996 about it. And over those 50 years that she 19:15.116 --> 19:17.557 refers to there, the truth is, of course, 19:17.597 --> 19:21.398 that the primary model of progress for humankind 19:21.978 --> 19:26.840 has been economic growth, increased GDP on 19:26.900 --> 19:29.401 a national basis and a global basis, and 19:29.541 --> 19:34.282 increased per capita improvements in material 19:34.322 --> 19:37.563 standards of living. That's what lies behind 19:38.124 --> 19:40.685 the notion of progress today. We make good 19:40.745 --> 19:44.267 things happen by virtue of generating growth 19:44.767 --> 19:46.528 in our national economies and therefore in 19:46.548 --> 19:49.270 the global economy as a whole. And of course, 19:49.951 --> 19:51.832 a lot of benefits have been generated by 19:51.892 --> 19:54.214 that kind of growth over 50 years. But what 19:54.254 --> 19:56.815 we're now taking stock of is the massive 19:56.875 --> 20:00.612 costs. that have been accruing during the 20:00.652 --> 20:03.553 course of those five decades. Huge damage 20:03.593 --> 20:06.214 done to the climate, to people's communities, 20:06.434 --> 20:09.676 to nature, to biodiversity. And we're beginning 20:09.836 --> 20:12.697 now to understand the full extent of that 20:12.917 --> 20:16.178 damage. Economists refer to it as externalized 20:16.499 --> 20:20.385 costs. the things that aren't paid for in 20:20.505 --> 20:22.828 the goods and services that we buy on a daily 20:22.888 --> 20:26.173 basis or companies buy as part of their supply 20:26.213 --> 20:29.357 chain engagement but which are still real 20:29.437 --> 20:32.140 costs in the economy which are paid for by 20:33.168 --> 20:34.590 people down the line. I mean, I was just 20:34.630 --> 20:36.833 talking about intergenerational justice. 20:36.913 --> 20:39.516 The truth is that climate change is an externalized 20:39.657 --> 20:43.041 cost because we haven't paid the real price 20:43.762 --> 20:46.686 for the emissions of those greenhouse gases. 20:47.347 --> 20:50.210 But future generations will. in big time. 20:51.110 --> 20:53.952 So that's the problem, is that our model 20:53.972 --> 20:57.033 of economy has promoted growth at all costs. 20:57.133 --> 21:00.775 And Barbara's asking, why don't we redesign 21:00.815 --> 21:03.337 the global economy so that we eliminate those 21:03.437 --> 21:07.319 external costs and we get a much more equitable 21:08.039 --> 21:10.421 and sustainable model of economic progress? 21:10.601 --> 21:12.222 And if I knew the answer to that question, 21:13.311 --> 21:15.292 I probably wouldn't be sitting here having 21:15.532 --> 21:17.353 an enjoyable conversation with you today, 21:17.393 --> 21:18.974 Stephen, because I've been banging on about 21:19.014 --> 21:22.376 this for 50 years. I joined the Green Party 21:22.496 --> 21:26.859 in 1974. So it is exactly the span of my 21:27.880 --> 21:29.921 engagement in these things that Barbara is 21:30.141 --> 21:34.584 referring to. I think the really difficult 21:34.604 --> 21:37.373 bit She mentions there, why don't we just 21:37.573 --> 21:40.874 change the algorithms that drive these huge 21:40.974 --> 21:44.495 economic factors? Well, that's, I think, 21:44.655 --> 21:47.636 a deliberately a sort of faux-naive question, 21:47.676 --> 21:49.336 because Barbara knows the answer to that 21:49.416 --> 21:52.057 as well as I do. The truth is that people 21:52.637 --> 21:56.738 don't want to make the process of creating 21:56.798 --> 22:00.060 and distributing wealth more equitable. The 22:00.160 --> 22:03.162 Oxfam report in January this year revealed 22:03.182 --> 22:05.143 that there are now 2,739 billionaires in 22:05.163 --> 22:07.345 the world today. 2,739 billionaires. And 22:07.365 --> 22:09.767 every year we see a significant increase 22:09.787 --> 22:12.148 in the number of people who enjoy that, some 22:12.168 --> 22:25.197 might say, excessive level of wealth. And 22:25.217 --> 22:26.881 the truth is that over the last 50 years, 22:27.182 --> 22:30.190 much more of the wealth created has drifted 22:30.631 --> 22:34.611 upwards. to enrich the already super rich 22:35.552 --> 22:39.395 in our global economy rather than being equitably 22:39.455 --> 22:42.997 shared so that many, many more, hundreds 22:43.057 --> 22:45.619 of millions of people would have benefited 22:45.880 --> 22:49.382 more fairly as a consequence of the surplus, 22:49.442 --> 22:51.864 the wealth created during that time. So if 22:51.884 --> 22:53.806 we want to get to grips with that, we're 22:53.826 --> 22:57.114 going to have to address The oligarchy today, 22:57.754 --> 23:00.777 these super rich, who of course control an 23:00.997 --> 23:03.119 awful lot of our politics today, not just 23:03.199 --> 23:06.363 because of their relationship with the politicians 23:06.423 --> 23:10.166 themselves, but because of their influence 23:10.366 --> 23:14.309 over the global media. A lot of these super-rich 23:15.149 --> 23:18.990 billionaires are media owners in their own 23:19.050 --> 23:23.051 right. They control huge media empires. And 23:23.131 --> 23:27.872 so they manage the mainstream media content, 23:28.752 --> 23:32.293 both print, broadcast, and social media content, 23:32.973 --> 23:37.114 in such a way that people remain detached 23:38.174 --> 23:40.636 from the consequences of us having allowed 23:40.796 --> 23:44.919 such disproportionate wealth extraction schemes 23:45.019 --> 23:47.320 to benefit so few at the expense of so many? 23:49.602 --> 23:53.004 The final contributor is Emeritus Professor 23:53.264 --> 23:58.208 Rupert Read. Rupert is an academic and a 23:58.248 --> 24:01.550 Green Party campaigner, a former spokesman 24:01.630 --> 24:04.852 for Extinction Rebellion and the current 24:04.872 --> 24:07.354 director of the Climate Majority Project. 24:08.919 --> 24:11.361 He has written several books on climate change, 24:12.142 --> 24:15.745 his most recent being, Why Climate Breakdown 24:15.925 --> 24:21.469 Matters, published in 2022. Professor Reed's 24:21.569 --> 24:25.272 questions are as follows. What are the most 24:25.372 --> 24:28.835 important things for business people who 24:28.855 --> 24:33.459 want to do the right thing to do now? Is 24:33.539 --> 24:36.928 it taking adaptation seriously? lobbying 24:37.148 --> 24:40.690 and advocating for much more serious regulation 24:41.310 --> 24:45.331 of themselves for climate and nature, telling 24:45.371 --> 24:49.073 the truth about how terrible the situation 24:49.213 --> 24:49.453 now is. 24:52.441 --> 24:55.043 Rupert and I are good colleagues, Stephen, 24:55.083 --> 24:58.867 we've been around dealing with these issues 24:58.947 --> 25:01.449 for a long time and he knows of course that 25:01.489 --> 25:05.012 I've spent much of the last 25 years of my 25:05.052 --> 25:10.114 life of my work as a sustainability advocate, 25:10.194 --> 25:14.037 working with companies, with largely big 25:14.058 --> 25:17.140 businesses rather than small companies. And 25:17.200 --> 25:19.062 I did that both through Forum for the Future, 25:19.262 --> 25:22.445 of which I was a co-founder in 1996, and 25:22.485 --> 25:24.267 through the Prince of Wales' Business and 25:24.367 --> 25:26.509 Sustainability Program, which I was also 25:26.549 --> 25:28.791 lucky enough to be a co-founder of. So I've 25:28.811 --> 25:31.745 spent a huge amount of time over the last 24:52.441 --> 25:35.991 25 years, trying to get the voice of business 25:36.853 --> 25:40.578 more involved in sustainability issues, more 25:40.658 --> 25:43.703 progressive. in the positions they take on 25:43.763 --> 25:46.105 not just environmental issues, so biodiversity, 25:46.385 --> 25:48.787 climate pollution, but also in social issues 25:49.568 --> 25:53.771 around diversity, inclusion, equality, all 25:53.791 --> 25:56.353 of those rather controversial things now 25:56.433 --> 25:58.375 dismissed by many people on the other side 25:58.415 --> 26:02.658 of the Atlantic as woke. And I don't regret 26:02.758 --> 26:05.480 spending that time at all. I feel it's been 26:05.520 --> 26:09.234 a really important part of my career as a 26:09.274 --> 26:11.495 sustainability activist, and I've learned 26:11.555 --> 26:14.335 a lot as a consequence of it. But one of 26:14.355 --> 26:16.676 the things I've come to see, and Rupert and 26:16.736 --> 26:19.956 I don't necessarily agree about this, is 26:20.076 --> 26:22.317 that business is much more limited than you 26:22.357 --> 26:25.097 might imagine. Everyone sees these huge companies 26:25.157 --> 26:27.758 and thinks, oh my gosh, they've got massive 26:27.798 --> 26:29.338 power in the world today, and they can do 26:29.358 --> 26:31.499 whatever they want. They can deploy all of 26:31.539 --> 26:33.459 their different resources and assets to make 26:33.519 --> 26:37.180 change happen. And so they can, if they want 26:37.200 --> 26:40.400 to. But very often, of course, they're bound 26:40.520 --> 26:43.762 by their fiduciary duties to their shareholders. 26:44.302 --> 26:46.703 They have to honor those fiduciary duties 26:46.944 --> 26:51.206 as their primary legal obligation. We now 26:51.286 --> 26:54.147 live in a period of capitalism which focuses 26:54.367 --> 26:56.909 on shareholder primacy, shareholder first, 26:57.788 --> 27:00.870 And very often that is interpreted as needing 27:00.950 --> 27:06.232 to maximize profit in the short term, even 27:06.573 --> 27:10.215 if the damage done in the long term is of 27:10.355 --> 27:12.376 huge concern to everybody. And that's where 27:12.396 --> 27:14.737 we are now at this particular moment in the 27:14.777 --> 27:18.619 history of 21st century capitalism, quarter 27:18.639 --> 27:21.100 of the way through this century, we're living 27:21.140 --> 27:25.002 through a very, very dark period. in the 27:25.062 --> 27:29.504 history of capitalism and we've got a resurgence 27:29.564 --> 27:32.224 of what I would call the worst kind of capitalism 27:32.264 --> 27:34.205 where it's a very small number of people 27:34.265 --> 27:37.306 who benefit at the expense of huge majorities. 27:37.866 --> 27:39.767 So when Rupert asked me what should they 27:39.847 --> 27:42.448 focus on, The answer is, well, they should 27:42.508 --> 27:44.449 do these good things. They should speak out 27:44.569 --> 27:47.091 more often. Of course they should. They should 27:47.251 --> 27:49.713 use their voice to try and bring about greater 27:49.753 --> 27:52.274 awareness. They should use their influence 27:52.534 --> 27:55.076 with governments and regulators to get better 27:55.156 --> 27:58.511 rules in place. But Rupert knows that isn't 27:58.771 --> 28:01.333 what happens. Most of the time, these companies 28:01.613 --> 28:04.596 use their lobbying and advocacy power to 28:04.656 --> 28:07.698 shift things in their favor, to make it easier 28:07.878 --> 28:11.321 for them to generate the dividends, the profits 28:11.821 --> 28:13.682 that their shareholders expect. Business 28:13.762 --> 28:18.385 doesn't, by and large. advocate for societal 28:18.705 --> 28:21.867 benefit and increased value for ordinary 28:21.967 --> 28:24.188 citizens and communities. It advocates for 28:24.808 --> 28:26.809 the interests of its primary group, namely 28:27.049 --> 28:31.786 its shareholders. So it's quite difficult 28:32.566 --> 28:36.288 suggesting that business has a really progressive 28:36.568 --> 28:39.870 role to play here, because they are bound 28:39.990 --> 28:42.771 by the rules of the countries in which they're 28:42.871 --> 28:46.272 operating. And at the moment, those rules, 28:46.372 --> 28:50.686 those laws, those regulations are geared 28:51.386 --> 28:53.168 to promoting the interests of shareholders, 28:53.528 --> 28:57.072 not to promoting the interests of humankind 28:57.112 --> 28:59.514 as a whole, or all of those companies, different 28:59.554 --> 29:01.416 stakeholders. So they've got a job to do. 29:02.337 --> 29:04.820 That's why I was pleased to be involved in 29:04.860 --> 29:08.503 that world for 25, 30 years. But we don't, 29:09.204 --> 29:10.745 we can't afford to have any illusions about 29:10.786 --> 29:14.835 this. They can't change what they do beyond 29:14.876 --> 29:16.776 a certain point until the rules of the game 29:16.836 --> 29:18.617 are changed. And the only people who can 29:18.637 --> 29:20.938 change the rules of the game are governments, 29:21.558 --> 29:23.639 not businesses, however big and powerful 29:23.679 --> 29:24.220 they might be. 29:25.880 --> 29:28.862 The title of our podcast is Climate Leadership 29:29.122 --> 29:32.183 in a Multipolar New World Order. The Guardian 29:32.283 --> 29:34.724 published a powerful editorial on January 29:34.784 --> 29:39.466 10th, 2025, titled, The Guardian's View on 29:39.506 --> 29:43.828 the LA Fires. Donald Trump's denial and division 29:44.048 --> 29:47.009 fuels climate inaction. It said the following, 29:47.069 --> 29:51.031 and I quote, The climate crisis knows no 29:51.071 --> 29:54.153 national borders. Deadly floods in Spain, 29:54.833 --> 29:58.355 Hawaii's fires, and East Africa's devastating 29:58.455 --> 30:02.276 drought show nowhere is safe from its effects. 30:03.337 --> 30:06.238 Countries must work toward the global common 30:06.358 --> 30:09.240 interest and beyond their narrow national 30:09.380 --> 30:13.687 interests. The scale of the climate emergency 30:14.107 --> 30:17.308 is such that there is a case to view all 30:17.388 --> 30:22.830 crises through a green lens. Instead, Mr. 30:22.890 --> 30:26.232 Trump's denialism works to foment distrust 30:26.432 --> 30:29.313 about the science. It's not just aiming to 30:29.353 --> 30:32.474 delay the onset of the truth. He wants to 30:32.534 --> 30:36.855 demolish it. Jonathon, in keeping with our 30:36.915 --> 30:40.356 podcast theme, What are the psychological 30:40.576 --> 30:43.718 and social political factors that contribute 30:43.778 --> 30:47.659 to climate change denial? And how can these 30:47.840 --> 30:50.661 be effectively countered in the context of 30:50.701 --> 30:54.483 a major wildfire event like the one in Los 30:54.543 --> 30:54.903 Angeles? 30:57.731 --> 31:00.053 I think we have to take stock of the fact 31:00.093 --> 31:03.457 that the situation in the U.S. is extraordinary. 31:04.998 --> 31:07.641 The Trump administration has moved with great 31:08.102 --> 31:12.706 vigor to destroy much of the alternative 31:12.746 --> 31:16.931 energy industry, the renewables, the storage, 31:17.251 --> 31:19.373 the whole approach to building a different 31:19.473 --> 31:22.655 energy economy. And it's done that, Stephen, 31:22.836 --> 31:25.838 we have to spell this out, because Donald 31:25.858 --> 31:29.642 Trump promised leaders in the fossil fuel 31:29.742 --> 31:33.126 industry, in oil and gas, and in the coal 31:33.166 --> 31:36.008 industry during his election campaign, that 31:36.088 --> 31:39.312 if he was elected, he would work to promote 31:39.612 --> 31:42.675 their cause. And that would include doing 31:42.755 --> 31:47.223 down the energy alternatives that America 31:47.263 --> 31:49.986 has in abundance if it wanted to pursue them. 31:51.107 --> 31:54.251 So this is a pretty abhorrent example of 31:54.331 --> 31:57.655 political venality and corruption at its 31:57.735 --> 32:00.379 worst. and it's going to hurt the world. 32:00.639 --> 32:02.840 There's no question about that. It will be 32:03.040 --> 32:06.302 a problem for as long as it lasts. It won't 32:06.602 --> 32:09.683 last, in my opinion, all that long, but it 32:09.723 --> 32:12.605 will be very painful when it does. The reason 32:12.645 --> 32:14.906 I say it won't last all that long is because, 32:15.706 --> 32:19.088 as you rightly identified with the title 32:19.128 --> 32:21.349 of this overall podcast series, Stephen, 32:21.609 --> 32:26.412 this is a multipolar world. It's not a world 32:26.472 --> 32:30.035 in which America can control everything, 32:30.075 --> 32:33.138 and it certainly can't control the response 32:33.278 --> 32:35.080 to climate change that we see elsewhere in 32:35.100 --> 32:37.462 the world. So right now, for instance, it 32:37.522 --> 32:39.744 is fascinating to see what is happening in 32:39.844 --> 32:43.176 China. More than 25 years ago, China decided 32:43.256 --> 32:47.518 that the future would be a lower carbon economy, 32:47.959 --> 32:50.920 less dependent on fossil fuels, and began 32:51.000 --> 32:55.223 to make massive strategic investments in 32:55.804 --> 32:59.666 renewable energy, in storage, in electric 32:59.886 --> 33:03.108 vehicles, electric buses, and of course, 33:03.368 --> 33:07.291 in all of those raw materials that the new 33:07.511 --> 33:10.112 renewable energy economy will depend on, 33:10.293 --> 33:13.294 including rare earths and precious metals 33:14.195 --> 33:17.817 from elsewhere in the world. So China already 33:17.877 --> 33:19.918 leads the world in every single one of these 33:20.038 --> 33:23.280 areas by a very long way, by a very long 33:23.320 --> 33:26.042 way. Electric vehicles, for instance, we 33:26.122 --> 33:29.664 think a lot about Elon Musk and Tesla. Tesla's 33:29.704 --> 33:34.046 technology is second rate. in comparison 33:34.246 --> 33:36.868 to the technology of Chinese companies like 33:36.928 --> 33:39.348 Build Your Dreams and others. Musk claims 33:39.409 --> 33:42.490 to be a leader on batteries. He's not a leader 33:42.530 --> 33:45.991 at all. He's an absolute laggard. And Tesla 33:46.051 --> 33:49.012 is rapidly losing its position as a technology 33:49.773 --> 33:52.934 driver of change. I only mentioned that because 33:52.974 --> 33:55.875 in all of these different fields, China is 33:55.975 --> 33:57.736 leading the way. Now, don't get me wrong, 33:58.479 --> 34:00.742 I'm not saying that I admire everything that 34:00.782 --> 34:03.705 happens in China. I absolutely don't. I find 34:03.745 --> 34:06.468 a lot of what China does, particularly in 34:06.508 --> 34:09.091 the field of human rights and treatment of 34:09.151 --> 34:12.756 its own citizens, absolutely abhorrent. I 34:12.916 --> 34:16.364 really find it difficult. to acknowledge 34:16.584 --> 34:20.087 China's leadership in this space, in the 34:20.127 --> 34:24.231 world of energy and sustainability in general. 34:24.291 --> 34:27.894 But that's the truth and we can't deny that. 34:28.054 --> 34:30.576 So when I look at the battle now between 34:30.636 --> 34:34.259 Trump who's given up on a decarbonized global 34:34.299 --> 34:37.560 economy and China that is the undisputed 34:37.720 --> 34:41.502 leader in the decarbonized global economy. 34:41.562 --> 34:45.244 This is a clash between the two superpowers 34:45.284 --> 34:48.005 in the world today that is massively important 34:48.065 --> 34:51.406 and everybody will basically react to that 34:51.506 --> 34:56.249 clash. India, Russia, Brazil, the European 34:56.389 --> 35:00.116 Union, else other OECD countries will all 35:00.176 --> 35:03.600 find their way through the politics of that 35:04.281 --> 35:07.604 new multipolar world in a way that couldn't 35:07.624 --> 35:09.967 have been predicted before. So I don't feel 35:11.075 --> 35:13.876 I don't feel completely gloomy and depressed 35:14.717 --> 35:17.218 by all the awful things going on in America 35:17.278 --> 35:20.539 because I know that they can't actually stop 35:20.659 --> 35:23.740 some of the revolutionary changes, technology 35:23.800 --> 35:25.821 changes that are happening elsewhere. So 35:25.861 --> 35:31.423 we do have that to look forward to. You ask 35:31.503 --> 35:33.404 a much more complicated question, Stephen, 35:33.424 --> 35:36.505 when it comes to the psychological and socioeconomic 35:36.545 --> 35:40.333 factors behind denial. Well, I think we all 35:40.373 --> 35:44.055 know that many people find it extremely difficult 35:44.095 --> 35:46.676 to confront the physical reality of climate 35:46.696 --> 35:50.917 change. It's genuinely scary to consider 35:50.937 --> 35:54.760 the consequences. what will happen when climate 35:54.800 --> 35:57.182 change accelerates, becomes even worse as 35:57.242 --> 35:59.324 the warming continues to build up in the 35:59.604 --> 36:02.366 atmosphere and affect ecosystems down here 36:02.446 --> 36:04.307 on planet Earth. We know that's going to 36:04.347 --> 36:07.089 get really bad. And a lot of people turn 36:07.149 --> 36:10.792 away from that because it's just too painful 36:10.912 --> 36:13.975 to contemplate, which is why we have to go 36:14.115 --> 36:16.817 on urging that people need to confront that 36:16.897 --> 36:20.541 truth. You can't turn away from it. It is 36:20.661 --> 36:23.243 happening. It shapes everything in our lives 36:23.323 --> 36:25.946 already today, and it will shape it even 36:26.206 --> 36:29.509 more powerfully and influentially in the 36:29.549 --> 36:31.971 future. So we have to invite people to come 36:32.031 --> 36:36.773 into a space where they can contemplate the 36:36.793 --> 36:39.255 reality of what's happening, and then engage 36:39.315 --> 36:42.158 in such a way that we can begin to put things 36:42.258 --> 36:45.081 right. Interestingly, Stephen, last quick 36:45.141 --> 36:48.424 reflection on this, all the 26 young people 36:48.464 --> 36:50.366 that I've been working with over the last 36:50.446 --> 36:54.109 year, all of them tell me that one of the 36:54.149 --> 36:57.752 reasons why they have committed so bravely, 36:58.213 --> 37:01.665 in my opinion, to civil disobedience and 37:01.926 --> 37:04.946 are prepared to take the consequence for 37:04.966 --> 37:07.307 the actions that they've taken. One of the 37:07.327 --> 37:09.848 reasons is that it's only in that kind of 37:10.048 --> 37:13.629 action that they can keep despair at bay. 37:14.229 --> 37:16.690 And these are young kids in their 20s, and 37:16.710 --> 37:20.810 they're already forced to acknowledge that 37:20.830 --> 37:23.011 their future through to the end of this century 37:23.211 --> 37:25.493 is going to be one that will be traumatically 37:26.353 --> 37:29.955 devastated by the impacts of climate change. 37:29.995 --> 37:33.437 So for them, taking that action, being prepared 37:33.457 --> 37:37.599 to accept the consequences, of those actions 37:38.319 --> 37:41.580 is a necessary part of avoiding the sort 37:41.640 --> 37:45.541 of despair and grief that afflicts so many 37:45.621 --> 37:49.143 young people today. And I've been very moved, 37:49.343 --> 37:52.904 to be honest, to hear at first hand exactly 37:53.024 --> 37:55.765 why those actions are such an important part 37:55.805 --> 37:58.486 of their own psychological resilience. 38:00.242 --> 38:02.944 And finally, Jonathon, please advise our 38:02.964 --> 38:05.246 listeners where they may find your new book, 38:05.306 --> 38:07.648 Climate Change, when it's finally published. 38:09.850 --> 38:11.551 Well, thank you for that, Stephen. I should 38:11.591 --> 38:13.432 have said right at the start of this podcast 38:13.472 --> 38:15.314 that, as is often the way when you're writing 38:15.354 --> 38:18.276 a book, the title of the book has changed. 38:20.678 --> 38:24.141 So that was a title that I had for a long 38:24.161 --> 38:26.142 time. And the book is now called Love, Anger 38:26.322 --> 38:30.562 and Betrayal. It's an account of the work 38:30.622 --> 38:32.804 that I've been doing with these 26 activists. 38:32.864 --> 38:35.646 The love is theirs, as I call it, because 38:35.686 --> 38:38.548 they express this deep compassion and empathy 38:38.608 --> 38:41.110 for people already affected by climate change 38:41.151 --> 38:43.292 and for all the people who will be affected, 38:43.492 --> 38:45.574 hundreds of millions who will be affected 38:45.614 --> 38:47.516 by climate change in the future, often in 38:47.556 --> 38:49.978 countries that have contributed least of 38:49.998 --> 38:52.800 the problem. The anger, I must admit, Stephen, 38:52.860 --> 38:54.542 is mine. I've been on very good behavior 38:54.582 --> 38:57.165 today. I haven't let rip too much about the 38:57.245 --> 39:01.609 anger I feel concerning politicians and big 39:01.649 --> 39:04.792 business today. And the betrayal is a generational 39:04.852 --> 39:07.693 betrayal. what I feel very strongly that 39:07.813 --> 39:10.154 my generation and yours do, I have to say, 39:10.174 --> 39:13.514 Stephen, that between us, we've betrayed 39:14.154 --> 39:16.175 young people today because their future is 39:16.195 --> 39:19.815 going to be so negatively impacted by our 39:19.935 --> 39:21.836 inability to take the right decisions at 39:21.876 --> 39:25.016 the right time, at the right scale. So the 39:25.056 --> 39:26.717 book now is called Love, Anger, and Betrayal. 39:26.897 --> 39:29.457 It will be published by the middle of July. 39:30.177 --> 39:32.378 It will be available, as you might expect, 39:32.498 --> 39:35.718 on Amazon and elsewhere. And I very much 39:35.798 --> 39:38.379 hope, Stephen, once I've got the details 39:38.479 --> 39:40.860 of all of that together, that I can send 39:40.880 --> 39:42.961 you a press release, and then you can, as 39:43.021 --> 39:45.982 it were, help me bring it to the attention 39:46.022 --> 39:48.663 of people. Because I really want people to 39:49.584 --> 39:51.785 see this more through the eyes of young people. 39:51.825 --> 39:53.825 I've written half the book, and they've written 39:53.845 --> 39:55.666 the other half. So I've interviewed them 39:55.726 --> 39:58.447 at length. I've visited a lot of them in 39:58.567 --> 40:01.408 prison. I've spent time with them. I've asked 40:01.448 --> 40:03.389 them to provide a personal account of why 40:03.429 --> 40:05.590 they've got to the position they're in at 40:05.690 --> 40:08.512 the moment. So it's insight into how a lot 40:08.552 --> 40:10.233 of young people, exceptional young people, 40:10.253 --> 40:12.734 it's not the norm, I want to stress that, 40:13.374 --> 40:14.995 exceptionally young people are responding 40:15.035 --> 40:18.317 to the climate crisis. And I hope it'll make 40:18.337 --> 40:19.837 an impact as a consequence of that. 40:20.818 --> 40:23.419 So Jonathon Porritt, thank you very much 40:23.459 --> 40:25.280 for being a guest on this podcast. 40:27.273 --> 40:29.774 Stephen, thank you very much. I've, as always, 40:29.854 --> 40:32.474 much enjoyed our conversation. Thank you. 40:33.895 --> 40:36.556 This podcast was brought to you by the Kamugasa 40:36.576 --> 40:38.776 Challenge in partnership with Democracy in 40:38.876 --> 40:42.017 Africa. Democracy in Africa is a platform 40:42.077 --> 40:45.418 dedicated to building a bridge between academics, 40:45.918 --> 40:48.899 policymakers, practitioners, and citizens. 40:49.779 --> 40:52.460 The fourth episode in our leadership series 40:52.520 --> 40:56.551 is entitled Exposing Your Blind Spots. the 40:56.711 --> 40:59.032 argument for fostering whistleblower voices 40:59.512 --> 41:02.853 to become a successful leader. An interview 41:02.893 --> 41:06.214 with Mary Inman, a partner at Whistleblower 41:06.274 --> 41:11.055 Partners. The podcast will go live on August 41:11.775 --> 41:15.156 11th, 2025. If you enjoyed this podcast, 41:15.256 --> 41:17.457 please click the share button in your app 41:17.597 --> 41:20.818 to send this episode to a friend. Thank you 41:20.958 --> 41:22.919 very much for taking the time to listen to 41:22.939 --> 41:26.750 this podcast. Until next time, goodbye.