WEBVTT 00:00.353 --> 00:03.816 Hello. Welcome back to Conversations with 00:03.896 --> 00:08.380 Stephen Kamugasa. This is the second episode 00:08.980 --> 00:13.444 in our 2025 Leadership Series. Today's guest 00:14.245 --> 00:18.288 is Charlie Gladstone, an author and entrepreneur. 00:19.229 --> 00:22.471 He has worked in the music industry and now 00:22.632 --> 00:28.531 runs retail and hospitality businesses. Charlie 00:28.551 --> 00:31.792 Gladstone is a co-founder of a collective, 00:32.472 --> 00:36.554 an advocacy group, Heirs of Slavery. The 00:36.594 --> 00:39.555 collective's purpose is to acknowledge slavery 00:40.195 --> 00:43.696 as a crime against humanity and address its 00:43.836 --> 00:47.837 ongoing consequences. The collective supports, 00:48.337 --> 00:53.239 and I quote, today's movements seeking apology, 00:54.119 --> 00:58.183 dialogue, reconciliation, and reparative 00:58.283 --> 01:02.644 justice. In this episode, we discuss the 01:02.684 --> 01:06.325 topic, slavery, how to pay for the sins of 01:06.405 --> 01:10.326 our forefathers. Charlie Gladstone, welcome. 01:11.527 --> 01:13.847 Thank you very much, Stephen. Great honour, 01:14.508 --> 01:17.188 a great honour to meet you. And I'm really 01:17.208 --> 01:19.129 interested in the work you're doing. So in 01:19.169 --> 01:20.729 my small way, it's wonderful to be able to 01:20.749 --> 01:23.150 have the opportunity to engage with that. 01:24.178 --> 01:27.040 You are the eighth Baronet in a family of 01:27.120 --> 01:30.763 illustrious ancestors, boasting a four-time 01:30.983 --> 01:33.905 British prime minister, William Gladstone. 01:35.005 --> 01:37.267 But all things changed when you discovered 01:37.387 --> 01:39.749 that the founder of your illustrious family, 01:40.489 --> 01:43.971 Sir John Gladstone, the first Baronet, was, 01:44.912 --> 01:48.655 among other things, a slave owner, Charlie 01:49.500 --> 01:51.862 Can you please tell us something about your 01:51.902 --> 01:55.466 childhood and how did your learning that 01:55.526 --> 01:59.050 your ancestor was a slave owner affect your 01:59.190 --> 02:02.353 appreciation of the toxic debate surrounding 02:02.453 --> 02:04.315 British history in the 21st century? 02:06.687 --> 02:09.308 Well, it's an interesting question and it's 02:09.348 --> 02:11.209 a multi-stranded question, Stephen, and there 02:11.229 --> 02:14.070 are a lot of answers to it, but I suppose 02:14.110 --> 02:17.932 to kind of stay firmly, as it were, on topic, 02:17.952 --> 02:23.655 I am indeed you know, the sort of eighth 02:23.835 --> 02:28.999 eldest son of the eldest son. And in my family, 02:29.159 --> 02:32.521 we had this incredible history with William 02:32.541 --> 02:36.824 Gladstone, who was Britain's only prime minister 02:36.904 --> 02:41.267 served for full time terms, and said by many 02:41.287 --> 02:43.289 to be the most famous man in the world. And 02:43.409 --> 02:47.272 all of our family, essentially, looked back 02:47.312 --> 02:49.513 at that as a great thing. And that gave us 02:49.553 --> 02:54.037 an identity and an importance. And I grew 02:54.117 --> 02:58.300 up in his house, which I now live in. And 02:59.101 --> 03:00.962 my father was incredibly interested in history. 03:01.102 --> 03:03.344 I wasn't interested in history. And actually, 03:03.424 --> 03:05.426 to be truthful, my father was a marvelous 03:05.446 --> 03:07.968 father. But the moment he started talking 03:07.988 --> 03:11.711 about history and William Gladstone, my ears 03:11.771 --> 03:13.673 would close in the way that I think anyone 03:13.733 --> 03:16.075 who has listened to their parents talking 03:16.095 --> 03:18.077 about subjects that don't particularly interest 03:18.157 --> 03:22.521 them will have experienced. And so I never 03:22.581 --> 03:25.583 really was interested in history. I've dedicated 03:25.644 --> 03:28.306 my career, as you briefly touched on earlier, 03:28.526 --> 03:34.312 into design and hospitality and music and 03:34.372 --> 03:37.873 contemporary culture. Having said that, I 03:38.274 --> 03:41.654 am as clear as I can be, I can't ask my parents 03:41.734 --> 03:44.875 now, they're both dead, that it was never 03:45.095 --> 03:48.076 discussed in our family that John Gladstone 03:48.176 --> 03:53.217 had made a sizable amount of money through 03:53.757 --> 03:56.638 holding people in slavery. Now, John Gladstone 03:56.678 --> 03:59.718 was William Gladstone's father. John Gladstone 03:59.758 --> 04:02.999 had, I think, I'm going to say, six children 04:03.379 --> 04:06.020 of which I believe William Gladstone was 04:06.040 --> 04:08.361 the youngest. So the line wasn't perhaps 04:08.501 --> 04:11.702 quite as direct as all that. However, it 04:11.742 --> 04:14.543 was never discussed. And in fact, John Gladstone 04:14.583 --> 04:18.545 was somewhat revered in my family as the 04:18.585 --> 04:21.206 man who had made the family from humble beginnings, 04:21.746 --> 04:25.187 made a lot of money. And he was described 04:25.227 --> 04:29.029 in the family as a corn trader. And it was 04:29.129 --> 04:31.871 only really during the incredibly important 04:31.911 --> 04:34.632 period of Black Lives Matter that it began 04:34.672 --> 04:37.754 to come to my attention that he had in fact 04:37.814 --> 04:40.116 made a great deal of money from holding people 04:40.236 --> 04:45.779 in slavery in Guyana and Jamaica. And this 04:45.859 --> 04:48.000 then started to be something that was discussed 04:48.301 --> 04:50.942 in quite a fevered way by people in the media 04:51.022 --> 04:54.224 because John Gladstone had very particularly 04:54.344 --> 04:57.206 made the largest amount of money through 04:57.406 --> 05:01.669 Britain's compensation scheme at abolition. 05:02.290 --> 05:04.431 He made the largest amount of money of any 05:04.631 --> 05:08.994 British slave owner. Now, that does not mean 05:09.014 --> 05:10.575 that he made the largest amount of money 05:10.615 --> 05:12.877 from holding people in slavery, but it is 05:12.957 --> 05:17.050 extremely significant. and, um, very unjust. 05:17.150 --> 05:20.233 And I began to, um, to really understand 05:20.373 --> 05:22.975 then that all of my privilege of which there 05:23.015 --> 05:25.758 is an immense amount and all of my family's 05:25.818 --> 05:29.662 privilege had stemmed from this. Now, actually, 05:29.682 --> 05:31.644 I've just said all of the privilege and I 05:31.684 --> 05:33.085 don't think it really matters whether it's 05:33.205 --> 05:35.207 all of it, 90% of it, 10%, 5% of it, because 05:35.247 --> 05:41.271 it's not a quantifiable thing. It is a qualifiable 05:41.311 --> 05:44.092 thing. And there is no doubt to me that William 05:44.132 --> 05:46.533 Gladstone, his younger son would not have 05:46.573 --> 05:49.314 been Prime Minister, if his father had not 05:49.394 --> 05:52.855 had a great deal of money. Ergo, I think 05:52.915 --> 05:55.236 that my family would not be the family it 05:55.376 --> 06:00.017 is without that money. And this came to me 06:00.217 --> 06:02.998 like a steam train. And I was very shocked 06:03.038 --> 06:04.899 by it. I think I've always felt a sense of 06:05.979 --> 06:11.082 societal responsibility or some form of guilt 06:11.263 --> 06:14.645 or ill ease at my privilege. I mean, I'm 06:14.685 --> 06:16.766 very lucky. I went to a fantastic school, 06:16.826 --> 06:19.288 fantastic university, never struggled to 06:19.328 --> 06:22.570 have food on the table, lived a very, very, 06:22.650 --> 06:24.111 very comfortable life in the 0.01% of the 06:24.532 --> 06:29.315 planet, whatever it is. But I'd always had 06:29.335 --> 06:32.356 a sort of sense of slight ill ease with that. 06:33.917 --> 06:36.159 Not in a George Orwellian manner, by which 06:36.239 --> 06:38.160 I mean, I didn't want to go off and sort 06:38.180 --> 06:40.001 of change my lifestyle dramatically, but 06:40.041 --> 06:42.302 I felt a little bit ill at ease and, and 06:42.322 --> 06:45.344 then to understand that this somewhere a 06:45.884 --> 06:49.302 good amount of this privilege had come from 06:49.322 --> 06:54.106 the incredible crime of holding people in 06:54.186 --> 06:58.249 slavery, the brutal, unpleasant, nasty criminal 06:58.329 --> 07:01.531 activities, was a great shock and it was 07:01.651 --> 07:05.754 magnified My exposure to this was magnified 07:05.995 --> 07:08.617 through inquiries by two things. One was 07:08.637 --> 07:11.079 that John Gladstone received the largest 07:11.279 --> 07:14.882 amount of compensation at abolition. And 07:15.042 --> 07:18.646 anyway, compensation was a brutal and ridiculous 07:18.946 --> 07:21.748 notion. But secondly, William Gladstone was 07:21.788 --> 07:24.431 regarded as the most famous man in the world 07:24.511 --> 07:26.553 because he was four times prime minister 07:26.653 --> 07:30.835 to Queen Victoria. And so inevitably the 07:30.915 --> 07:34.897 lens of discussion, public opinion, criticism, 07:34.977 --> 07:37.498 questioning was focused to quite a large 07:37.558 --> 07:40.740 extent on me, me being the oldest son of 07:40.800 --> 07:43.061 the oldest son, et cetera, et cetera. And 07:43.121 --> 07:46.362 initially I very much put my hands up in 07:46.402 --> 07:48.423 the headlights and just tried to hide away 07:48.483 --> 07:50.905 and hope this would go. And then I thought 07:50.945 --> 07:53.926 to myself, well, hold on a second, this did 07:54.006 --> 07:56.763 happen. And I think it takes a bit of time 07:56.843 --> 07:58.964 to come to terms with these things. I thought 07:59.664 --> 08:03.866 to myself, hold on, this is profoundly unpleasant, 08:03.886 --> 08:07.247 but it is the truth. And is there something 08:07.468 --> 08:12.704 that I could do which would not right the 08:12.744 --> 08:15.407 wrongs of the past because that can't be 08:15.447 --> 08:17.589 done. They're so great. They're so huge. 08:17.709 --> 08:20.752 And anyway, the past is the past, but do 08:20.812 --> 08:22.894 something that might make the world a better 08:23.254 --> 08:26.997 place today. And, and that was really what 08:27.078 --> 08:30.401 led me to being involved in the foundation 08:30.781 --> 08:34.104 of, um, the heirs of slavery advocacy group 08:34.184 --> 08:36.786 that you mentioned. I think it's worth saying 08:36.826 --> 08:39.127 that there is no there's really no precedent 08:39.167 --> 08:41.689 for how to behave because Britain generally 08:41.729 --> 08:43.870 and my family are not exceptional by any 08:43.930 --> 08:45.972 means have buried this under the carpet. 08:46.532 --> 08:50.382 This has been a conspiracy to cover up the 08:50.422 --> 08:52.783 appalling parts of our history. And Britain 08:52.803 --> 08:56.625 has done that extremely effectively for many 08:56.685 --> 08:59.367 hundreds of years. We talk about the glorious 08:59.427 --> 09:01.968 things, and we completely brush under the 09:02.008 --> 09:05.029 carpet the bad things. So there was no precedent 09:05.049 --> 09:07.751 for how to do it. So I met with a couple 09:07.791 --> 09:11.413 of a few like-minded souls, and we formed 09:11.433 --> 09:15.735 the advocacy group. And that's where we are 09:15.815 --> 09:19.437 now, if that's to answer the question sufficiently, 09:19.477 --> 09:19.757 Stephen. 09:20.933 --> 09:23.255 The University of Wisconsin's Department 09:23.295 --> 09:26.017 of History sets out reasons for studying 09:26.097 --> 09:30.860 history as follows, and I quote, history 09:31.021 --> 09:33.622 gives us the tools to analyze and explain 09:33.723 --> 09:37.806 problems in the past. It positions us to 09:37.866 --> 09:41.488 see patterns that might otherwise be invisible 09:41.849 --> 09:44.931 in the present, thus providing a crucial 09:44.951 --> 09:47.933 perspective for understanding and solving 09:48.554 --> 09:52.353 current and future problems. As you've already 09:52.393 --> 09:54.895 mentioned, you are fortunate to have attended 09:55.055 --> 09:58.176 two of England's most famous educational 09:58.357 --> 10:02.178 institutions, Eton College and Oxford University. 10:03.259 --> 10:06.181 Do you believe your illustrious education 10:06.221 --> 10:08.582 prepared you well for the realities of the 10:08.622 --> 10:12.084 British history, especially as it pertains 10:12.124 --> 10:16.886 to slavery? And what aspects of the current 10:17.026 --> 10:19.988 teaching of history in British schools would 10:20.028 --> 10:20.548 you alter? 10:22.658 --> 10:24.699 Another interesting question with many strands 10:24.779 --> 10:27.861 to it. I very much agree that history teaches 10:27.961 --> 10:31.683 us how to deal with the current situation 10:31.723 --> 10:33.384 in the world and shows us patterns. And I 10:33.424 --> 10:35.085 think that this is probably at the nub of 10:35.785 --> 10:37.746 the work that I'm trying to do in my own 10:37.806 --> 10:41.188 modest way to correct some of the ills of 10:41.228 --> 10:43.149 the past. What I think is interesting in 10:43.189 --> 10:45.711 this particular context that we're discussing 10:46.431 --> 10:49.692 is that the ills of slavery are still very 10:49.752 --> 10:53.913 much felt around the world today. And I think 10:53.953 --> 10:56.693 it's hard to understand systemic racism, 10:57.713 --> 11:01.934 societal inequality, the difficulties, particularly 11:01.994 --> 11:04.075 that many people feel through not knowing 11:04.335 --> 11:07.195 where they were from, having been snatched 11:07.215 --> 11:10.336 from their homes by my forebears. I think 11:10.376 --> 11:12.696 all of these things are relevant now. And 11:12.756 --> 11:16.837 until I began to understand about the ills 11:17.117 --> 11:20.759 of holding people in slavery by visiting 11:20.839 --> 11:25.020 Guyana, I didn't really understand the impact 11:25.620 --> 11:29.201 that these crimes against humanity were having 11:29.421 --> 11:32.682 today and were having on the way that I was 11:32.763 --> 11:36.144 brought up. And there is, I mean, it is staggering. 11:36.164 --> 11:38.364 You mentioned my school there, Eton College, 11:38.384 --> 11:41.625 an extremely famous school. When I was there, 11:41.825 --> 11:47.102 it had about 1300 boys. And I think there 11:47.142 --> 11:49.824 were probably about four boys of colour, 11:50.044 --> 11:52.866 and everybody else was white. So this leads 11:52.986 --> 11:55.788 us very clearly. I mean, it was a marvelous 11:55.808 --> 11:58.370 school. I'm not criticizing it. It was absolutely 11:58.430 --> 12:02.452 marvelous on many, many levels. And Um, I 12:02.512 --> 12:05.033 think that I'm not criticizing it. It did 12:05.113 --> 12:07.214 everything for me without that school, without 12:07.314 --> 12:09.735 the privilege of my education. I don't think 12:10.315 --> 12:11.995 I'd have made anything of my life. And this 12:12.055 --> 12:14.756 is, this is about inequality. So I'm not 12:14.856 --> 12:17.477 talking just in negatives, but I am saying 12:17.537 --> 12:20.658 that I am not an historian. I have very little 12:21.259 --> 12:22.899 knowledge of history, but I've learned a 12:22.979 --> 12:26.281 great deal about the ills that my family 12:26.641 --> 12:30.705 visited on people of African descent and 12:30.785 --> 12:32.967 indeed Indian descent through my family's 12:33.048 --> 12:36.932 involvement in indentured labour. But I think 12:36.992 --> 12:42.557 that my sense is that it would be very useful 12:42.597 --> 12:46.021 for history to tell these stories for a number 12:46.061 --> 12:48.924 of different reasons. But I think One of 12:48.964 --> 12:51.167 the most important ones is so that people 12:51.247 --> 12:54.811 who are of colour actually have given a sense 12:54.851 --> 12:58.936 of a place in British history, even if it 12:59.016 --> 13:02.120 isn't a pleasant place in the past, that 13:02.160 --> 13:06.925 they feel that their struggles, The crimes 13:06.986 --> 13:09.107 that my soul committed are recognized and 13:09.147 --> 13:11.569 acknowledged. And I think that it seems to 13:11.649 --> 13:14.151 me, and as I say, I'm not an historian, I 13:14.191 --> 13:17.093 didn't, I did history until the first level 13:17.113 --> 13:18.874 that you could stop doing it. And I didn't 13:19.215 --> 13:21.076 read it. I didn't study it again after that. 13:21.576 --> 13:25.159 But it seems like it is fundamentally a conspiracy 13:25.619 --> 13:28.942 to weave certain narratives and in so doing 13:29.122 --> 13:32.144 to leave out other narratives. And I think 13:32.184 --> 13:35.266 if we're to make a more equal society, which 13:35.326 --> 13:37.208 is fundamentally a better society, I mean, 13:37.248 --> 13:41.110 I struggle to sort of see how one can not 13:41.170 --> 13:43.832 make a better, a more equal society wouldn't 13:43.852 --> 13:45.593 be a better one, that it would be best just 13:45.633 --> 13:49.436 to tell these stories. Tell the stories of 13:49.496 --> 13:52.538 what people such as my great-great-grandfather 13:52.678 --> 13:55.360 did. Tell about the evils of the empire, 13:55.820 --> 13:58.042 the British empire, and balance things out 13:58.082 --> 14:00.683 a little bit. It doesn't seem terribly complicated 14:00.763 --> 14:03.545 to me. I mean, I think that we do have to 14:03.605 --> 14:06.526 try to, and I think one of the reasons that, 14:06.706 --> 14:08.087 you know, this is wonderful that you and 14:08.147 --> 14:10.888 I are talking, I think that we do have to 14:10.968 --> 14:13.749 try and take the sting out of all of this. 14:13.989 --> 14:17.311 I think that one of the big challenges is 14:17.411 --> 14:21.111 that People, there's too much culture war, 14:21.131 --> 14:23.071 there's too many arguments, there's too many 14:23.131 --> 14:25.052 fighting, too much fighting, and I think 14:25.752 --> 14:29.273 we just need to say this happened, this is 14:29.293 --> 14:32.674 a matter of fact, this is a story, this is 14:32.735 --> 14:35.475 as big a story as The other things that happen 14:35.495 --> 14:37.756 that you've been taught about at school, 14:37.776 --> 14:41.657 at university, but it is significant. And 14:42.137 --> 14:44.117 we don't need to fight about it. It's in 14:44.177 --> 14:46.018 the past. And the reason that we need to 14:46.098 --> 14:48.878 tell that story is that it helps us, as I've 14:48.918 --> 14:51.659 said, to educate us about our place now in 14:51.699 --> 14:54.379 the world. But I think as importantly, it 14:54.399 --> 14:57.160 would help to bring us together as people. 14:58.277 --> 15:00.878 You first came to my attention after reading 15:00.998 --> 15:03.598 an article on slavery, which was published 15:03.899 --> 15:08.940 in The Guardian on August 19th, 2023. It 15:09.020 --> 15:11.341 is recorded that you were moved to tears 15:11.741 --> 15:14.161 after learning about your ancestors' exploits, 15:14.742 --> 15:17.782 Sir John Gladstone, saying, and I quote, 15:18.603 --> 15:22.344 I felt terrible. I really, really hated it. 15:23.084 --> 15:26.805 It was a shock and I felt absolutely sick. 15:28.154 --> 15:32.417 Charlie, I'm sure our listeners are as intrigued 15:32.597 --> 15:37.381 as I was. Please talk us through the intense 15:37.521 --> 15:40.724 sorrow you experienced when it dawned on 15:40.764 --> 15:44.226 you that the great name of Gladstone is stained 15:44.306 --> 15:45.087 by slavery. 15:46.667 --> 15:50.349 I think that the word, a very good verb there 15:50.409 --> 15:53.131 is dawned. I mean, this was probably in reality, 15:53.251 --> 15:57.294 not a single moment. I think it was a dawning 15:57.334 --> 16:00.396 that ended up having a sort of tsunami like 16:00.696 --> 16:04.879 quality to it. And I think that overcame 16:04.939 --> 16:10.950 me. It was a realization that that this great 16:11.071 --> 16:14.132 history that I'd endlessly been taught about 16:14.232 --> 16:17.893 was actually only a part of the story. And 16:18.313 --> 16:22.195 I felt shocked. And I touched on this earlier. 16:22.275 --> 16:25.856 I felt incredibly sad, very anxious. I still 16:25.916 --> 16:28.525 do, Stephen. I mean, I still don't. You know, 16:28.786 --> 16:31.188 I don't want to be having this conversation. 16:31.348 --> 16:35.012 I wish it wasn't me. I, you know, it's not, 16:35.152 --> 16:38.075 it's not, it's, I am talking from a position 16:38.115 --> 16:40.257 of immense privilege. I'm living in Great 16:40.317 --> 16:42.460 Britain. I'm, you know, I'm a white man. 16:42.520 --> 16:44.522 I had this incredible education. I've, you 16:44.542 --> 16:47.805 know, very healthy. all these things, but 16:47.885 --> 16:50.468 I, I wish it wasn't me. I don't feel comfortable 16:50.508 --> 16:53.011 doing this. I still feel anxiety about it. 16:53.091 --> 16:55.794 I still feel, I still feel bruised by it, 16:55.854 --> 16:57.936 but I've made it very clear to myself that 16:57.976 --> 17:01.019 it's not about me. And I think that having 17:01.480 --> 17:04.723 gone through this incredible and intense 17:04.823 --> 17:08.771 shock and sorrow and guilt, And people say, 17:09.412 --> 17:11.874 incidentally, that you can't feel guilt about 17:11.934 --> 17:14.876 something that your ancestors did. Well, 17:14.896 --> 17:16.677 that's a matter of semantics. I mean, I feel 17:16.717 --> 17:18.499 guilty about it. I feel bad about it. So, 17:19.379 --> 17:21.361 you know, if people say I shouldn't do then 17:21.601 --> 17:24.247 that's got nothing to do with them. And I 17:24.347 --> 17:26.929 am only working on behalf of myself and some 17:26.989 --> 17:29.671 other members of my family. But I think that 17:29.891 --> 17:33.434 having felt this guilt and felt this intense 17:33.735 --> 17:37.818 shame and sorrow and understanding that all 17:37.858 --> 17:40.320 of my privilege or whatever proportions I 17:40.360 --> 17:42.002 said earlier, you can't necessarily quantify 17:42.022 --> 17:46.766 it was built on the misery of others. I had 17:46.866 --> 17:52.090 to I think I had three choices, really, essentially. 17:52.190 --> 17:56.332 One was to sort of wallow in self-doubt, 17:56.853 --> 18:00.995 misery, disgust. The other was to bury my 18:01.055 --> 18:04.357 head, or a sort of combination of burying 18:04.397 --> 18:06.178 my head and being on the offensive and saying 18:06.198 --> 18:07.419 it's got nothing to do with me, it happened 18:07.459 --> 18:09.761 in the past. And the third was really to 18:10.941 --> 18:14.383 come out and try and do something good. And 18:14.884 --> 18:17.785 I think it's, it's, there's no doubt that 18:19.306 --> 18:21.747 I began to understand after a while when 18:21.787 --> 18:24.348 the tsunami had slightly sort of abated that 18:24.408 --> 18:27.249 actually, it was no good wallowing in my 18:27.369 --> 18:29.651 own upset. It's got, it's nothing to do with 18:29.691 --> 18:32.672 me. It's, it's not about me. I, if there's 18:32.792 --> 18:36.134 something useful that I can do, however small, 18:37.094 --> 18:38.955 If there's something useful that I can do 18:39.095 --> 18:42.337 to help to make in however small a way the 18:42.857 --> 18:45.158 wrongs of the past, turn them into something 18:45.178 --> 18:48.900 a bit more right, then I'd like to find that 18:48.940 --> 18:51.521 opportunity. But I think it took a time to 18:51.602 --> 18:54.963 come out from this because as I said before, 18:55.183 --> 18:58.665 there wasn't what you might call a conventional 18:58.685 --> 19:02.327 behaviour here. There wasn't a sort of indication, 19:02.367 --> 19:05.128 a roadmap as to what it was that you should 19:05.188 --> 19:10.293 do. And it was really through the CARICOM 19:10.313 --> 19:13.457 10-point plan that I began to understand 19:13.497 --> 19:15.739 there were things that I could do. And I 19:15.779 --> 19:19.583 think one of the first things that they ask 19:19.804 --> 19:22.446 from nations, they're not asking individuals, 19:22.506 --> 19:24.268 but I'm not a nation, I'm an individual. 19:25.029 --> 19:29.454 was acknowledgement and apology. And I began 19:29.474 --> 19:31.596 to understand how that how important that 19:31.736 --> 19:35.440 is. And I think that that I suddenly it sort 19:35.480 --> 19:37.562 of didn't deep dawn on me suddenly, and this 19:37.622 --> 19:39.845 is to use your word dawn, you know, I felt 19:39.965 --> 19:43.307 awful, I felt I wished it would all go away. 19:43.387 --> 19:47.408 I felt guilty. I felt sad. I felt the more 19:47.448 --> 19:48.849 I learned about it, the more horrified I 19:48.929 --> 19:53.550 felt. But then when someone alerted me to 19:53.670 --> 19:57.492 the CARICOM 10-point plan, and I read it 19:57.552 --> 20:00.954 and it all made sense to me. It's an incredibly 20:01.034 --> 20:04.056 practical, simple, sensible document and 20:04.076 --> 20:06.357 I can't really understand why anyone except 20:06.377 --> 20:09.179 for the most entrenched on particular side 20:09.219 --> 20:11.841 of the right-wing side of the spectrum would 20:11.881 --> 20:15.123 be against it. The first thing that CARICOM 20:15.163 --> 20:18.425 are asking from my country and indeed by 20:18.445 --> 20:22.068 extension people like me is apology and acknowledgement. 20:22.779 --> 20:26.243 And I can do that. It's not that difficult 20:26.263 --> 20:29.046 to say sorry to someone and to acknowledge 20:29.246 --> 20:32.390 that what happened was a crime against humanity. 20:33.271 --> 20:35.193 Now, that's a matter of definition. I believe 20:35.233 --> 20:36.935 it was a crime against humanity. I think 20:37.896 --> 20:39.438 it doesn't matter whether you think it was 20:39.498 --> 20:42.321 or wasn't. It was clearly a massive crime 20:42.381 --> 20:45.864 and it was completely wrong. And it was appalling 20:45.944 --> 20:47.965 and people are asking me to say sorry. So 20:48.605 --> 20:50.906 all that I really started out by doing is 20:50.986 --> 20:54.467 trying to find out how I might, who I might 20:54.507 --> 20:58.509 say sorry to. I'm really sorry that my family 20:59.029 --> 21:02.031 were complicit in what I regard as a crime 21:02.071 --> 21:05.252 against humanity and were significant perpetrators 21:05.312 --> 21:08.534 in that. And I acknowledge fully the hurt 21:08.774 --> 21:11.937 that it caused and that it continues to cause 21:12.497 --> 21:15.820 to people of colour all over the world. And 21:16.201 --> 21:18.843 that seemed to me to be a fairly simple beginning. 21:20.145 --> 21:21.866 I think there are a lot of strands that I 21:21.906 --> 21:24.589 would like to extend from that because I 21:24.649 --> 21:27.992 do believe that my government and indeed 21:28.113 --> 21:32.276 other governments are essentially populist 21:32.356 --> 21:35.397 governments and that until their population 21:35.757 --> 21:38.298 are advocating for something they will not 21:38.418 --> 21:42.179 stand up and do it. So I believe that we 21:42.259 --> 21:46.361 have to try to change the debate in this 21:46.441 --> 21:50.302 country away from a culture war into a wider 21:50.362 --> 21:52.923 acknowledgement that the ills of slavery 21:53.703 --> 21:56.146 were appalling and are still being felt today. 21:56.906 --> 21:59.769 And if I can just bring some people to the 21:59.829 --> 22:03.613 table, in doing that, then then that is that 22:03.693 --> 22:06.637 is an achievement. And if hundreds or 1000s 22:06.657 --> 22:09.979 of other people and there are tens if not 22:10.059 --> 22:11.941 hundreds of thousands of other people in 22:12.001 --> 22:14.704 Britain alone who have benefited in similar 22:14.744 --> 22:16.526 ways to me, and it's a matter of degree, 22:16.606 --> 22:19.289 some no doubt more, some less, but have benefited. 22:19.809 --> 22:22.112 If we could all get together and say, this 22:22.192 --> 22:24.734 is awful, let's remove the culture war from 22:24.774 --> 22:27.277 this, let's remove the sting from this, and 22:27.317 --> 22:31.961 let's just say sorry and in so doing, acknowledge 22:32.001 --> 22:34.781 the ills of our society, and in so doing, 22:34.881 --> 22:36.642 try to persuade our government that there 22:36.682 --> 22:40.343 are other aspects of CARICOM's plan that 22:40.943 --> 22:43.043 are practical and useful, then that would 22:43.063 --> 22:44.984 be the best that I could do. 22:46.624 --> 22:49.645 Speaking of intense sorrow, I'm interested 22:49.665 --> 22:54.306 to see that in 2023, you, Charlie Gladstone, 22:55.147 --> 23:00.198 Richard Atkinson, John Dower, Rosemary Mecklenburg, 23:00.919 --> 23:05.523 Alex Renton, Laura Trevelyan, and Robin Wedderburn, 23:06.523 --> 23:09.546 formally asked that the descendants of slavery 23:10.286 --> 23:13.349 extend a hand of friendship and forgiveness 23:13.609 --> 23:17.112 to you, children who are heirs of slavery. 23:18.186 --> 23:21.467 Pursuant to your request, a collective called 23:21.607 --> 23:25.028 Heirs of Slavery was founded with the express 23:25.128 --> 23:27.749 purpose of acknowledging slavery as a crime 23:27.909 --> 23:31.170 against humanity and dealing with its ongoing 23:31.230 --> 23:37.411 consequences. Charlie, this is really a significant 23:37.491 --> 23:41.472 project. In a language an ordinary person 23:41.512 --> 23:44.993 in the street would understand, please explain 23:45.073 --> 23:49.172 what Heirs of Slavery is about. And what 23:49.272 --> 23:52.103 if I were to say to you, so what? 23:54.434 --> 23:56.374 Yeah, I mean, I think Heirs of Slavery is 23:56.455 --> 23:58.675 about so many things that I've touched on 23:58.735 --> 24:02.796 before. And I think that it's an attempt 24:03.076 --> 24:08.738 to acknowledge and apologize for the crimes 24:09.498 --> 24:12.058 of our forebears. We're all people who have 24:12.138 --> 24:15.439 benefited in some way or other from having 24:15.519 --> 24:18.741 ancestors who held people in slavery. And 24:19.321 --> 24:22.886 it's really a group just to try to address 24:22.946 --> 24:26.590 that and to get people together to share 24:27.211 --> 24:32.137 ideas as to what we might do in order to 24:32.398 --> 24:36.180 make the world a better place. And I suppose 24:36.280 --> 24:38.301 at its most extreme, our ultimate goal would 24:38.341 --> 24:41.181 be to get the government to sit up and listen 24:41.841 --> 24:45.602 and to consider what they might do to help 24:46.542 --> 24:50.043 those people who were held in slavery, ancestors 24:50.583 --> 24:53.744 through, I think, targeted overseas aid, 24:54.484 --> 24:59.125 particularly social economic aid in healthcare, 24:59.225 --> 25:04.908 aid in education. And I think that it'll 25:04.948 --> 25:07.430 take a long time for us to get there. But 25:07.490 --> 25:10.331 the most important thing that I feel I can 25:10.392 --> 25:12.193 do, and the group is a disparate group of 25:12.233 --> 25:15.495 people with different histories and different 25:15.555 --> 25:17.917 experiences and different emotions and different 25:17.997 --> 25:21.299 skill sets. But what I think, what I would 25:21.339 --> 25:24.261 like to try to do is try to remove this from 25:24.481 --> 25:28.104 a culture war. In Britain, broadly speaking, 25:28.204 --> 25:33.828 I think that there are three groups of people. 25:34.969 --> 25:37.451 There are, in terms of attitudes to this, 25:37.511 --> 25:39.192 those that have considered it, there are 25:39.232 --> 25:40.773 three groups of people. There are those who 25:41.253 --> 25:43.395 agree with what we've done, which is to acknowledge 25:43.475 --> 25:45.737 it, make an apology and see if there are 25:45.777 --> 25:48.499 ways in which we in whatever way we can, 25:48.599 --> 25:51.582 can help to address some of the ills that 25:51.642 --> 25:55.005 are still common in society through the crimes 25:55.285 --> 25:58.428 of slavery. There are those who just aren't 25:58.508 --> 26:00.410 interested and don't care and there are those 26:00.470 --> 26:02.712 who are radically against what we're doing 26:02.752 --> 26:05.234 and say that it was in the past, there's 26:05.294 --> 26:08.257 nothing that we can, it's not our business 26:08.277 --> 26:10.099 to deal with the past, you can't feel guilt 26:10.139 --> 26:12.481 about the past. I think that what I'm trying 26:12.521 --> 26:16.144 to do is to try to remove the culture war 26:16.284 --> 26:21.328 from this by saying to those who are advocating 26:21.468 --> 26:23.750 for the British government to make apologies 26:23.810 --> 26:26.412 and to help with reparations, let's walk 26:26.472 --> 26:28.554 together, all of us that are involved in 26:28.594 --> 26:31.436 this from all sides of the debate, let's 26:31.496 --> 26:33.718 walk together, let's sort of get into lockstep 26:33.778 --> 26:35.739 and see if there are ways in which we can 26:35.879 --> 26:38.441 make the future just a bit better. And I 26:38.501 --> 26:41.612 think in order to do that, We have to try 26:41.672 --> 26:45.297 to take the sting out of the argument. And 26:45.397 --> 26:47.419 I think I would hold my hands up to people 26:47.459 --> 26:51.224 and say, look, it's complicated, but it happened. 26:52.145 --> 26:55.940 The ills are still being felt today. Let's 26:56.140 --> 27:00.124 try to do something together so that we can 27:00.584 --> 27:02.385 walk into the future and make the future 27:02.405 --> 27:05.748 a better place. And people, this is rhythm 27:05.768 --> 27:07.510 with what about tree. I mean, I, whenever 27:07.650 --> 27:10.472 I do a public event talking about this, there'll 27:10.512 --> 27:12.394 be people in the audience who say, well, 27:12.414 --> 27:15.316 what's about the ills of, of contemporary 27:15.576 --> 27:18.917 slavery, modern slavery, or what about this 27:19.017 --> 27:20.838 or what about that? And I say, you know, 27:20.858 --> 27:23.099 what about them? I'm just doing one thing. 27:23.699 --> 27:26.220 And that is using my position of privilege, 27:26.500 --> 27:29.102 which was essentially a function to some 27:29.162 --> 27:31.883 extent of my ancestors holding people in 27:31.943 --> 27:35.484 slavery, to try to make the world a better 27:35.524 --> 27:38.706 place by talking about this and by apologizing. 27:39.306 --> 27:41.467 And I think in so doing, what we might be 27:41.627 --> 27:45.848 able to do is to try to remove the desire 27:46.169 --> 27:49.150 for reparations from being seen by people 27:49.190 --> 27:54.790 in Britain as punitive fines. to being sensible, 27:55.291 --> 28:00.193 generous, liberal, overseas aid to help people. 28:01.033 --> 28:04.334 And I think that if we can slightly take 28:04.654 --> 28:07.075 the sting out of this argument, we will make 28:07.215 --> 28:10.096 progress. Because until we make progress 28:10.156 --> 28:11.857 and take the sting out of it, the government 28:11.937 --> 28:13.498 aren't just going to pay any attention to 28:13.578 --> 28:16.499 us. Unless the government pay attention, 28:17.499 --> 28:19.480 there are not going to be reparations. Obviously, 28:19.500 --> 28:21.841 the request is for governments to pay reparations. 28:22.661 --> 28:25.803 And so I feel that we have to try to get 28:26.304 --> 28:28.005 people on side. And I think the best way 28:28.045 --> 28:30.567 to get people on side is to say, look, it 28:30.647 --> 28:35.010 happened. It's still being a lived experience. 28:35.530 --> 28:37.412 There are millions of people around the world 28:37.472 --> 28:40.093 who don't know their origins. They don't 28:40.154 --> 28:42.235 know where they came from. There are millions 28:42.295 --> 28:46.198 of people who live in poverty without basic 28:46.258 --> 28:50.061 health care. And this is a direct function 28:50.361 --> 28:54.703 of slavery. And we can help them. And it's 28:54.783 --> 28:57.063 not about being fined for something that 28:57.103 --> 29:00.144 happened 200 years ago. It really isn't. 29:00.885 --> 29:01.745 It's happening now. 29:03.786 --> 29:06.486 Your colleague, Alex Renton, published a 29:06.546 --> 30:18.682 piece in The Guardian on October 23rd, 2024, 29:10.588 --> 29:14.349 entitled, To My Distant Cousin, Justin Welby, 29:15.969 --> 29:19.250 Our Family's Slavery History is Truly Awful. 29:19.990 --> 29:24.128 Let's Be Open About It. Alex wrote the following, 29:24.188 --> 29:28.310 and I quote, Last year, some of us set up 29:28.430 --> 29:31.152 heirs of slavery to encourage others who 29:31.192 --> 29:33.974 were ready to acknowledge that their ancestors 29:34.174 --> 29:37.656 profited from enslavement to support attempts 29:37.756 --> 29:41.458 to heal the still open wounds. When people 29:41.518 --> 29:44.260 come forward, we suggest they research the 29:44.300 --> 29:47.602 history fully and listen to those descended 29:47.722 --> 29:50.687 from the other side of the story. I have 29:50.727 --> 29:54.169 done that with people all over the UK and 29:54.349 --> 29:57.731 at the sites of the Caribbean plantations 29:57.791 --> 30:02.593 that my ancestors never visited. I am still 30:02.653 --> 30:07.356 learning. How crucial is it to be honest 30:07.436 --> 30:11.018 about this incredibly traumatic past? What 30:11.118 --> 30:13.439 concrete actions are you taking to encourage 30:13.519 --> 30:17.241 those who share your past to be open and 30:17.501 --> 30:18.682 educated about it? 30:19.775 --> 30:24.336 I mean, that was Alex Renton speaking and 30:24.396 --> 30:28.357 not me. And Alex is a man for whom I have 30:28.377 --> 30:30.137 a great deal of respect. And I think he and 30:30.157 --> 30:33.958 I agree very substantially on this. I think 30:34.498 --> 30:36.959 that what, so I just, you know, pain to point 30:36.999 --> 30:39.159 out that that wasn't me writing that, that 30:39.199 --> 30:43.400 was Alex. What steps, the question at the 30:43.460 --> 30:45.300 end is, sorry, just repeat the question at 30:45.340 --> 30:47.661 the end of that, Alex, Stephen, sorry. 30:48.746 --> 30:52.232 What concrete actions are you taking to encourage 30:52.312 --> 30:56.058 those who share your past to be open and 30:56.339 --> 30:57.541 educated about it? 30:58.342 --> 31:00.763 Yes, I think that, sorry, yes. I mean, I 31:00.803 --> 31:03.444 think that doing this podcast, for example, 31:04.105 --> 31:05.965 being on the front page of The Guardian and 31:06.025 --> 31:09.967 Observer, being on the BBC, doing a major 31:10.007 --> 31:12.248 feature in The Economist and a podcast with 31:12.288 --> 31:15.349 The Economist magazine, these are the actions. 31:15.390 --> 31:18.771 This is me just standing up and saying, I 31:18.851 --> 31:22.753 acknowledge this. This was awful. These effects 31:22.813 --> 31:25.014 are still being felt. And I'm trying to get 31:25.054 --> 31:29.613 this discussion out in the open, that's the 31:29.653 --> 31:32.353 best action that I can do. And I think that 31:35.714 --> 31:37.475 I didn't have to do it. I felt massively 31:37.515 --> 31:39.676 compelled personally to do it as indeed did 31:39.696 --> 31:41.176 other members of my family. And I should 31:41.216 --> 31:43.757 acknowledge that some of my children, my 31:43.797 --> 31:46.898 brother, one of my nephews, they're very, 31:46.958 --> 31:50.499 very active and courageous in doing this. 31:50.579 --> 31:53.020 And I think that that is the best thing that 31:53.060 --> 31:56.141 we can do is get this conversation out there. 31:57.001 --> 32:00.462 And that's really all I think that I can 32:00.502 --> 32:03.283 do that's really concrete. I don't want to 32:03.363 --> 32:05.523 be self-aggrandizing, but I mean, this was 32:05.583 --> 32:10.364 a major news story, the Guardian story. I 32:10.404 --> 32:12.265 think it was covered over several pages in 32:12.285 --> 32:14.445 The Observer. It was a major story in The 32:14.485 --> 32:17.546 Economist, on the BBC. These are the biggest 32:17.606 --> 32:19.326 news channels in the world, the Guardian, 32:19.346 --> 32:22.287 the BBC, in the English-speaking world. And 32:23.608 --> 32:25.689 we were right at the front of those. And 32:25.909 --> 32:29.631 I think that that is probably the most dramatic 32:29.691 --> 32:31.832 thing that we can do. And of course, now 32:32.032 --> 32:34.513 it's harder to keep that debate going, because 32:35.093 --> 32:38.195 as we know, these newspapers and news channels 32:38.255 --> 32:41.396 want news stories. And that was a news story. 32:42.097 --> 32:46.539 So we got it out there. And as I say, some 32:46.579 --> 32:49.520 people vehemently disagreed. Some people 32:49.700 --> 32:52.162 vehemently agreed, most people don't really 32:52.382 --> 32:54.503 even remember or care, but at least we got 32:54.543 --> 32:56.824 it out there and we started to have a conversation. 32:57.224 --> 32:59.325 And I think in terms of concrete action, 32:59.985 --> 33:02.146 that's the best thing we can do. Now, I'm 30:58.342 --> 33:05.948 60 years old, and I think that it's more 33:06.008 --> 33:10.629 relevant what my children are doing. or their 33:10.669 --> 33:14.611 generation. And some of my children and one 33:14.651 --> 33:17.312 of my nephews are very, very actively involved 33:17.472 --> 33:20.214 in just discussing this, just talking about 33:20.334 --> 33:23.635 it. And I think it's really the main thing 33:23.655 --> 33:25.356 that we can do is talk about it. I mean, 33:25.776 --> 33:29.698 we also went to Guyana at the invitation 33:29.758 --> 33:32.641 request of the University of Guyana and the 33:32.721 --> 33:36.224 Guyanese Reparations Council and we made 33:36.264 --> 33:38.485 an apology and they wanted us to go there 33:38.505 --> 33:41.288 and we went there and again some people think 33:41.308 --> 33:42.889 that was right and some people think it was 33:42.929 --> 33:45.431 wrong and I'm just trying not to really concern 33:45.451 --> 33:47.993 myself with either groups of people. I don't 33:48.013 --> 33:50.655 want to bask in the approbation of people 33:50.675 --> 33:52.236 who think it was right and equally I'm not 33:52.276 --> 33:54.838 going to wallow in the negativity of people 33:54.858 --> 33:55.999 who think it was wrong. I'm just going to 33:56.059 --> 33:58.701 say This is what we're doing. And that's 33:58.741 --> 34:00.441 the most concrete thing we can do because 34:00.501 --> 34:03.102 we have, we have to a greater or lesser extent, 34:03.642 --> 34:05.963 we brought this out into the open and had 34:05.983 --> 34:08.224 a conversation about it. And we've said, 34:08.704 --> 34:11.285 this was evil. It should it should never 34:11.325 --> 34:13.406 have happened. But it did happen. The ills 34:13.446 --> 34:15.946 are being felt today. So let's say sorry 34:15.986 --> 34:19.128 to those that are suffering from those ills 34:19.288 --> 34:21.269 and let's see if we can get governments to 34:21.310 --> 34:24.572 a position where they will take reparations 34:24.632 --> 34:28.014 more seriously and you know successive successive 34:28.975 --> 34:32.217 British governments and I'm a Briton, my 34:32.257 --> 34:34.859 passport is British, successive British governments 34:34.939 --> 34:37.241 and ministers just back this away straight 34:37.301 --> 34:41.784 away and I think that that's because they 34:41.884 --> 34:44.306 know that the popular opinion is not with 34:44.386 --> 34:47.909 me but if I can start to get popular opinion 34:48.469 --> 34:50.210 with me, then there is some chance that there 34:50.230 --> 34:51.191 will be reparations. 34:54.133 --> 34:58.157 If I may, let me take a devil's advocate 34:58.317 --> 35:02.420 stance. What if I make the case that previous 35:02.580 --> 35:05.902 events are part of the past? No matter how 35:06.143 --> 35:09.005 terrible, we have no right to tamper with 35:09.085 --> 35:13.969 history. In any case, some humans were enslaved 35:14.589 --> 35:18.908 by the divine's inherent order. God had a 35:18.968 --> 35:23.934 plan. Due to their incomplete humanity, slaves 35:24.114 --> 35:28.499 had no rights, and their suffering was regarded 35:28.599 --> 35:32.243 as neither morally significant nor inconsequential 35:32.904 --> 35:36.550 compared to that of domestic animals. Furthermore, 35:37.311 --> 35:40.612 in a society where lives were managed by 35:41.052 --> 35:44.113 more advanced and civilized individuals, 35:44.994 --> 35:48.295 slaves were happier and more prosperous since 35:48.355 --> 35:50.756 they lacked the capacity to manage their 35:50.916 --> 35:57.138 own affairs. Charlie, given that the US election 35:57.158 --> 36:01.634 of 2024 made it abundantly clear that we 36:01.714 --> 36:04.596 are now living in a post-truth world where 36:04.976 --> 36:08.338 morality is debatable. What's wrong with 36:08.418 --> 36:15.002 me playing devil's advocate? What does it 36:15.102 --> 36:17.203 mean to be a human? 36:19.008 --> 36:21.309 Well, there's a question for a high level 36:21.349 --> 36:24.250 philosopher there, and I'm not absolutely 36:24.670 --> 36:25.971 sure that I can answer all of this. I mean, 36:25.991 --> 36:29.652 if you spouted all that stuff about, sort 36:29.712 --> 36:32.053 of devil's advocate stuff about Britain being 36:32.073 --> 36:33.854 great civilizers, I'd just tell you you're 36:33.874 --> 36:37.175 a lunatic. I can't see what was particularly 36:37.215 --> 36:39.136 civilized about this behaviour of putting 36:39.176 --> 36:42.517 people into these ships and carrying them 36:42.557 --> 36:44.578 in shackles across the ocean. If that's what 36:44.618 --> 36:46.579 civilization is, then heaven help us, we're 36:46.599 --> 36:49.299 all doomed. So I'd say you're a complete 36:49.380 --> 36:53.401 crackpot and of course part of this debate 36:53.461 --> 36:56.182 is not really getting too involved in these 36:56.242 --> 36:58.742 sort of nutty arguments because they are 36:58.802 --> 37:01.023 essentially the sort of foundations of cultures 37:01.063 --> 37:03.384 which are not productive in getting arguments. 37:04.744 --> 37:07.145 further progress. But I think that, you know, 37:08.945 --> 37:11.166 this again goes plays into this sort of piece 37:11.226 --> 37:14.247 of, this isn't really about the past, it's 37:14.327 --> 37:17.367 about its impact on the present and the future. 37:18.168 --> 37:20.588 And so, I mean, I'm very used to people, 37:21.669 --> 37:24.309 you know, disagreeing of what I'm doing here, 37:24.329 --> 37:27.850 and I'm completely at ease with it. I mean, 37:27.910 --> 37:30.511 some people say that dinosaurs didn't exist 37:30.611 --> 37:33.892 and all the rest of it. The world was created 37:33.952 --> 37:35.932 in seven days. And I say, that's fine. You 37:35.972 --> 37:37.433 believe that. I'll believe what I'm going 37:37.453 --> 37:39.233 to do. But I'm not going to try and persuade 37:39.273 --> 37:41.554 you otherwise, because that's like trying 37:41.574 --> 37:43.615 to persuade someone that black is actually 37:43.655 --> 37:47.156 indeed white and red is indeed green. It's 37:47.216 --> 37:48.876 a pointless exercise. I think that what I 37:48.916 --> 37:53.097 would say is that visiting Guyana and indeed 37:53.137 --> 37:56.498 looking across Britain, it's very clear that 37:56.518 --> 37:59.939 the ills of slavery are still widely felt 38:00.979 --> 38:05.220 and painful today and that I can do something 38:05.240 --> 38:08.681 to help today. And so I think that my answer 38:08.721 --> 38:10.801 would be that. I mean in terms of the sort 38:10.841 --> 38:12.822 of philosophy of the meaning of life, I mean 38:12.882 --> 38:16.284 I think that If we can generally try to do 38:16.404 --> 38:19.588 good, then I think we should try to do good. 38:19.628 --> 38:23.051 I'm a great believer that when we die, whatever 38:23.111 --> 38:25.193 we believe and whatever happens to us, whether 38:25.233 --> 38:27.376 we're burned or put in the ground or in the 38:27.456 --> 38:29.738 sea or whatever it is, that ultimately the 38:29.858 --> 38:33.121 only legacy that we we leave behind of any 38:33.201 --> 38:35.343 significant beyond the genetic legacy is 38:35.403 --> 38:37.285 a legacy of love and the impact that we've 38:37.325 --> 38:39.026 had on the people that we've met along the 38:39.086 --> 38:43.871 way. And that if I can just in some small 38:43.911 --> 38:45.952 way make the world a better place through 38:45.972 --> 38:50.016 this work, then that will have been at least 38:51.117 --> 38:54.099 a decent opportunity to turn the evils of 38:54.139 --> 38:56.762 the past into some good for the future. 38:59.346 --> 39:02.707 The title of our podcast is Slavery, How 39:02.727 --> 39:06.109 to Pay for the Sins of Our Forefathers. In 38:59.346 --> 39:10.931 2014, an award-winning author and journalist, 39:11.711 --> 39:15.433 Ta-Nehisi Coates, published a seminal article 39:15.713 --> 39:19.535 in The Atlantic entitled, The Case for Reparations. 39:20.819 --> 39:24.461 By taking a thorough approach to the reparations 39:24.701 --> 39:28.823 issue, Coates' work exemplifies the diverse 39:28.923 --> 39:31.524 variety of viewpoints provided by scholars. 39:32.584 --> 39:35.345 He calls on Americans to see reparations 39:35.605 --> 39:39.087 as, and I quote, a revolution of the American 39:39.587 --> 39:43.649 consciousness, a reconciling of our self-image 39:44.669 --> 39:47.471 as the great democratizer with the facts 39:47.531 --> 39:51.826 of our history, rather than as a handout, 39:52.887 --> 39:57.830 a payoff, cash money, or a reluctant bribe. 39:58.891 --> 40:03.554 Now, according to a BBC report, Rachel Reeves, 40:03.634 --> 40:06.215 the Chancellor of the Exchequer, speaking 40:06.336 --> 40:08.997 at the Commonwealth Heads of Government on 40:09.097 --> 40:15.241 October 25th, 2024, said, the UK is not going 40:15.281 --> 40:18.763 to be paying out reparations for the transatlantic 40:18.823 --> 40:23.522 slave trade. Charlie, in the light of our 40:23.562 --> 40:26.924 podcast theme, how would you advise the British 40:27.004 --> 40:29.585 government, including all British public 40:29.706 --> 40:32.768 institutions that are tainted by slavery, 40:33.408 --> 40:37.371 to deal with the issue of reparations? And 40:37.991 --> 40:40.813 are reparations the best way for heirs of 40:40.873 --> 40:43.895 slavery to pay for the sins of their forefathers? 40:46.028 --> 40:49.389 I think there's so many strands to this conversation, 40:49.409 --> 40:52.410 to this question, Stephen, and I think that 40:53.371 --> 40:55.652 I'm glad that you've asked this because I 40:55.752 --> 40:58.713 feel that it's really the elephant in the 40:58.773 --> 41:01.153 room and it's kind of the nub of this whole 41:01.233 --> 41:06.722 conversation. And that question is, should 41:07.002 --> 41:09.983 we be paying reparations? Now, there are 41:10.083 --> 41:12.225 so many strands to this. And I think the 41:12.325 --> 41:14.466 author that you quote writes quite beautifully 41:14.506 --> 41:18.107 about the impact that paying reparations 41:18.167 --> 41:19.968 might have on the American psyche, which 41:20.048 --> 41:24.511 I think is really quite eloquent and I hadn't 41:24.571 --> 41:26.712 read before and quite beautiful and I agree. 41:27.352 --> 41:29.793 I mean, I think there are many strands. I 41:29.813 --> 41:32.735 think that people should, There are two different 41:32.795 --> 41:36.336 types of people in this debate. There are 41:36.416 --> 41:38.477 individuals and families and there are governments. 41:39.377 --> 41:41.158 And I think that individuals and families 41:41.218 --> 41:45.160 should help in as much as they can, making 41:45.240 --> 41:48.601 clear that they are helping in targeted ways 41:49.462 --> 41:51.543 and ways where money will get where it is 41:51.603 --> 41:55.585 best needed and do as much of that um work 41:55.645 --> 41:57.686 as they reasonably can and I think we have 41:57.726 --> 42:00.648 to be practical in that way and some people 42:00.728 --> 42:02.709 have been able to give large sums of money 42:02.950 --> 42:05.511 and some have been able to give small sums 42:05.571 --> 42:08.433 of money and that is just a reality and a 42:08.514 --> 42:10.895 fact of life and I think that it's it's great 42:10.955 --> 42:13.897 that people are able to give anything and 42:14.378 --> 42:19.121 um I think that um we need to kind of try 42:19.401 --> 42:24.980 and just consider that we don't get too bound 42:25.080 --> 42:29.203 up in sort of in the numbers here. I think 42:29.583 --> 42:32.585 that perhaps the more significant question 42:32.685 --> 42:35.947 is what impact governments could have and 42:35.987 --> 42:37.969 I think it's of course Rachel Reeves has 42:38.009 --> 42:40.010 said this and the previous government in 42:40.050 --> 42:42.532 Britain said exactly the same thing. And 42:42.572 --> 42:44.914 Rishi Sunak, who was the last Prime Minister 42:44.954 --> 42:47.355 of Britain before the current one, said, 42:47.475 --> 42:49.137 and I'm paraphrasing, something like, you 42:49.177 --> 42:52.239 know, we are not going to be paying reparations 42:52.319 --> 42:54.680 because history is history and we're dealing 42:54.700 --> 42:56.301 with the present and the future. But the 42:56.341 --> 42:58.943 point is that the present and the future 42:59.083 --> 43:02.787 are related. the lives of people are deeply 43:02.828 --> 43:05.732 and profoundly related to what did happen 43:05.752 --> 43:08.736 in the past. So again I think I go back to 43:08.796 --> 43:10.839 this idea that I don't think British governments 43:11.300 --> 43:14.264 will do anything about this until they feel 43:14.284 --> 43:18.507 that public opinion is on their side. Because 43:18.647 --> 43:21.328 ultimately, you know, governments care more 43:21.388 --> 43:23.488 about being elected and staying in power 43:23.548 --> 43:25.589 than they do about making radical choices 43:25.629 --> 43:28.110 that are better for the world and for humanity. 43:28.890 --> 43:30.971 And I'm afraid I just think that's just generally 43:30.991 --> 43:32.671 a fact. That's not to say individuals within 43:32.711 --> 43:34.212 government aren't great people. And we have 43:34.232 --> 43:36.812 some outstanding politicians in this country 43:36.832 --> 43:39.253 and as most countries do in the world. So, 43:39.813 --> 43:41.394 but I think, you know, the fact is that governments 43:41.534 --> 43:45.135 won't do anything that is likely to be hugely 43:45.195 --> 43:48.757 unpopular. They act under pressure. But most 43:48.817 --> 43:50.737 importantly, I think if we could change the 43:50.777 --> 43:53.078 debate in a generation to be one that said 43:53.158 --> 43:55.679 that Britain's history was, did have these 43:55.720 --> 43:57.540 appalling sides to it, and they're having 43:57.580 --> 43:59.861 an impact on the world today. And there are 43:59.881 --> 44:01.362 ways in which we could help. And some of 44:01.422 --> 44:03.563 those ways, some of those ways are to do 44:03.603 --> 44:07.084 with targeted overseas aids. I'm interested 44:07.144 --> 44:09.485 specifically, particularly in in overseas 44:09.585 --> 44:12.066 aid to Guyana and Jamaica through my own 44:12.126 --> 44:14.547 family's history. But I think that we need 44:14.607 --> 44:16.808 to try to get this debate out in the open. 44:16.868 --> 44:19.369 And I mean, we're in a strange place because 44:19.389 --> 44:21.390 very recently, you know, Britain's overseas 44:21.470 --> 44:25.372 aid budget has been sliced and the American 44:25.412 --> 44:28.273 government have persuaded them it seems to 44:28.313 --> 44:30.294 spend more money on defense than overseas 44:30.394 --> 44:32.295 aid. And I'm not, again, I'm not an expert 44:32.355 --> 44:35.156 on the mechanics of that or the impact of 44:35.236 --> 44:38.357 it. But I mean, I think that that you know 44:38.377 --> 44:40.558 it's easy for these these politicians will 44:41.959 --> 44:44.639 bat it away when whilst they know that it's 44:44.699 --> 44:47.901 not a big and important issue but but if 44:47.961 --> 44:50.181 it becomes an issue that the general public 44:50.361 --> 44:53.523 either you know start to care about and discuss 44:53.963 --> 44:56.524 then they might well be interested in in 44:56.564 --> 44:59.765 getting involved in paying reparations you 44:59.945 --> 45:02.086 and your colleagues are now focusing your 45:02.226 --> 45:04.927 energies on running a collective heirs of 45:05.007 --> 45:05.487 slavery 45:06.496 --> 45:10.603 Please talk to us about your challenges in 45:10.683 --> 45:13.588 running heirs of slavery. And what is your 45:13.628 --> 45:14.289 biggest fear? 45:16.274 --> 45:18.795 Well, I'm, I should point out, I'm actually 45:18.815 --> 45:21.215 a founder member of heirs of slavery, but 45:21.235 --> 45:23.796 I'm not involved directly in this anymore. 45:23.956 --> 45:25.517 I'm a supporter, but I'm not on the board 45:25.557 --> 45:28.738 anymore because I'm, uh, my time has gone 45:28.818 --> 45:31.358 for that. And I'm now involved in, in, uh, 45:31.458 --> 45:33.719 beyond my own work, which is, you know, my 45:33.759 --> 45:36.420 day job I'm involved in, in representing 45:36.460 --> 45:38.080 my own family. And I think it's worth pointing 45:38.120 --> 45:40.421 out that really heirs of slavery is fundamentally 45:40.441 --> 45:45.304 a coalition of interested and engaged people 45:45.344 --> 45:48.266 in this and a meeting place for people to 45:48.326 --> 45:50.488 meet and discuss ideas. So in many ways, 45:50.568 --> 45:55.912 it's a sort of catalytic center. But what 45:55.952 --> 45:57.934 we're really trying to do is just to get 45:57.994 --> 46:01.436 the debate out there and try to help individuals 46:01.797 --> 46:05.519 such as myself, to understand and acknowledge 46:06.440 --> 46:09.202 the past and its impact on the present. And 46:09.262 --> 46:11.303 that's really the best that we can do. I 46:11.343 --> 46:12.904 think that's what we're doing. We're not 46:12.964 --> 46:14.846 politicians. You know, we don't have the 46:14.906 --> 46:17.668 key to the Chancellor's purse. We are just 46:17.828 --> 46:21.110 trying to do, show people what they can do. 46:21.130 --> 46:23.111 And many hundreds of people have come to 46:23.191 --> 46:25.753 us and said, I'm interested. And we talk 46:25.793 --> 46:28.755 to them and deal with their own personal 46:28.795 --> 46:30.696 interests and their needs and try to point 46:30.716 --> 46:32.457 them in the right direction. Some of them 46:32.838 --> 46:35.499 come and go away again. Some become more 46:35.559 --> 46:38.323 interested. but we're essentially just trying 46:38.403 --> 46:42.108 to act as a meeting point for people and 46:42.148 --> 46:45.914 in so doing try to make a noise. My own personal 46:45.974 --> 46:48.618 work and it is really just a coalition of 46:48.678 --> 46:50.581 individuals you know it's a body but it's 46:51.641 --> 46:55.184 It's not an official body. It doesn't have 46:55.204 --> 46:58.986 a governmental position or a sort of corporate 46:59.006 --> 47:02.589 position. It's really just to discuss this 47:02.649 --> 47:04.950 and get it out there. And as I say, I mean, 47:04.990 --> 47:07.832 it sounds absurd, but 10 years ago, I wasn't 47:07.892 --> 47:10.314 aware that my own ancestor held people in 47:10.374 --> 47:14.637 slavery. I'm now just trying to do the best 47:14.677 --> 47:17.679 that I, along with my other members of my 47:17.739 --> 47:20.221 family, my wife and my nephew and several 47:20.241 --> 47:22.403 of my children and my brother, very keen, 47:22.783 --> 47:25.565 all of us, we're trying to just discuss this. 47:25.725 --> 47:28.747 And I suppose the word that I haven't used 47:28.787 --> 47:30.649 thus far, which I think is really important, 47:30.769 --> 47:34.892 is to normalize this discussion, to put it 47:35.012 --> 47:40.122 out there, to say as much as we were involved 47:40.183 --> 47:43.906 in the Second World War, or as much as anything 47:43.946 --> 47:47.609 in British history, this happened. It is 47:47.669 --> 47:51.913 regrettable. What we can do is now try to 47:51.973 --> 47:53.635 make the world a better place through the 47:53.755 --> 47:54.956 understanding of that. 47:55.957 --> 47:59.440 Finally, Charlie, please advise our listeners 47:59.500 --> 48:01.682 where they may connect with the work of Heirs 48:01.742 --> 48:02.323 of Slavery. 48:03.988 --> 48:06.329 Well, there is a website, an heirs of slavery 48:06.369 --> 48:12.170 website, Stephen, and there's a button on 48:12.210 --> 48:14.491 that that they can request to sign up to 48:14.531 --> 48:16.712 a very good newsletter, which is occasional. 48:17.772 --> 48:24.234 The group occasionally puts on events and 48:25.755 --> 48:30.077 is happy to listen to people and their concerns. 48:30.157 --> 48:34.158 I think that's the best way to get in touch 48:34.198 --> 48:37.500 and to find out about the work that we're 48:37.600 --> 48:41.321 loosely and collectively doing. I, as I say, 48:41.361 --> 48:43.222 and I think this is quite sort of important 48:43.282 --> 48:45.883 really, and I think everyone else all of 48:45.923 --> 48:48.504 the other people on the council of the heirs 48:48.564 --> 48:50.404 of slavery, as I say I'm no longer on that 48:50.464 --> 48:53.365 council, I'm not quite sure who is but it's 48:53.405 --> 48:57.006 still there, are just trying to make sense 48:57.046 --> 49:04.148 of the past and try to walk in lockstep with 49:04.588 --> 49:07.749 our brothers and sisters from all sides of 49:07.789 --> 49:12.290 the divide towards trying to make this appalling 49:13.402 --> 49:15.704 set of circumstances trying to turn it into 49:15.844 --> 49:19.447 something better and just not ignore it and 49:19.487 --> 49:22.210 i think that just try to remove the sting 49:22.250 --> 49:25.633 and the frustration that that people who 49:25.693 --> 49:27.734 are descended from those who are held in 49:27.794 --> 49:29.816 slavery must feel that britain won't listen 49:30.237 --> 49:33.019 it won't acknowledge just try to get that 49:33.099 --> 49:36.262 out there and uh my particular in particular 49:36.302 --> 49:38.223 my colleague Laura Trevelyan who is one of 49:38.243 --> 49:41.826 the founders has just been so dedicated in 49:41.926 --> 49:44.449 just trying to talk about it, but to try 49:44.489 --> 49:47.811 to talk about it in a non-confrontational 49:47.871 --> 49:50.654 way, it seems so important to me. Because 49:50.814 --> 49:53.816 if we're just fighting about it, and arguing 49:53.856 --> 49:55.938 and arguing, and what's right and what's 49:55.998 --> 49:57.660 wrong, and you're right and I'm wrong, and 49:57.700 --> 50:00.182 this is this and this is that, then I just 50:00.222 --> 50:02.003 don't think it makes any progress. I think 50:02.043 --> 50:06.387 it just becomes yet another socio-political 50:07.908 --> 50:09.932 argument. But if we could all in the world 50:10.012 --> 50:12.035 just start to agree that it happened and 50:12.055 --> 50:15.000 it was horrendous, then that's the best thing 50:15.040 --> 50:16.002 that we could do. 50:17.684 --> 50:20.289 Charlie Gladstone, thank you very much for 50:20.309 --> 50:22.052 being a guest on this podcast. 50:23.629 --> 50:26.111 Thank you, Stephen, and thanks to your listeners 50:26.791 --> 50:29.754 for their forbearance. It's been really interesting, 50:29.794 --> 50:32.476 and I'm really grateful to you for asking 50:32.536 --> 50:37.099 such considered and thought-provoking questions. 50:37.139 --> 50:38.961 I've done my best to answer them. I'm not 50:39.001 --> 50:41.383 really sure that someone can answer these 50:41.463 --> 50:44.225 in an hour's podcast, but it's great what 50:44.245 --> 50:46.046 you're doing, and congratulations to you 50:46.086 --> 50:48.508 for having the energy and drive to do it. 50:49.309 --> 50:52.804 Thank you. This podcast was brought to you 50:52.964 --> 50:55.225 by the Kamugasa Challenge in partnership 50:55.245 --> 50:59.247 with Democracy in Africa. Democracy in Africa 50:59.287 --> 51:02.029 is a platform dedicated to building a bridge 51:02.769 --> 51:06.291 between academics, policymakers, practitioners, 51:06.491 --> 51:10.833 and citizens. The third episode in our leadership 51:10.873 --> 51:14.509 series is entitled Climate Leadership. in 51:14.549 --> 51:18.230 a Multipolar New World Order, an interview 51:18.771 --> 51:21.852 with Sir Jonathon Porritt, a well-known British 51:21.932 --> 51:24.392 writer, broadcaster, and environmentalist. 51:25.453 --> 51:43.759 The podcast will go live on June 9th, 2025. 51:30.554 --> 51:32.615 If you enjoyed this podcast, please click 51:32.635 --> 51:35.316 the share button in your app to send this 51:35.476 --> 51:38.617 episode to a friend. Thank you very much 51:38.657 --> 51:40.798 for taking the time to listen to this podcast. 51:41.658 --> 51:43.759 Until next time, goodbye.