Hello. Welcome back to Conversations with
Stephen Kamugasa. This is the second episode
in our 2025 Leadership Series. Today's guest
is Charlie Gladstone, an author and entrepreneur.
He has worked in the music industry and now
runs retail and hospitality businesses. Charlie
Gladstone is a co-founder of a collective,
an advocacy group, Heirs of Slavery. The
collective's purpose is to acknowledge slavery
as a crime against humanity and address its
ongoing consequences. The collective supports,
and I quote, today's movements seeking apology,
dialogue, reconciliation, and reparative
justice. In this episode, we discuss the
topic, slavery, how to pay for the sins of
our forefathers. Charlie Gladstone, welcome.
Thank you very much, Stephen. Great honour,
a great honour to meet you. And I'm really
interested in the work you're doing. So in
my small way, it's wonderful to be able to
have the opportunity to engage with that.
You are the eighth Baronet in a family of
illustrious ancestors, boasting a four-time
British prime minister, William Gladstone.
But all things changed when you discovered
that the founder of your illustrious family,
Sir John Gladstone, the first Baronet, was,
among other things, a slave owner, Charlie
Can you please tell us something about your
childhood and how did your learning that
your ancestor was a slave owner affect your
appreciation of the toxic debate surrounding
British history in the 21st century?
Well, it's an interesting question and it's
a multi-stranded question, Stephen, and there
are a lot of answers to it, but I suppose
to kind of stay firmly, as it were, on topic,
I am indeed you know, the sort of eighth
eldest son of the eldest son. And in my family,
we had this incredible history with William
Gladstone, who was Britain's only prime minister
served for full time terms, and said by many
to be the most famous man in the world. And
all of our family, essentially, looked back
at that as a great thing. And that gave us
an identity and an importance. And I grew
up in his house, which I now live in. And
my father was incredibly interested in history.
I wasn't interested in history. And actually,
to be truthful, my father was a marvelous
father. But the moment he started talking
about history and William Gladstone, my ears
would close in the way that I think anyone
who has listened to their parents talking
about subjects that don't particularly interest
them will have experienced. And so I never
really was interested in history. I've dedicated
my career, as you briefly touched on earlier,
into design and hospitality and music and
contemporary culture. Having said that, I
am as clear as I can be, I can't ask my parents
now, they're both dead, that it was never
discussed in our family that John Gladstone
had made a sizable amount of money through
holding people in slavery. Now, John Gladstone
was William Gladstone's father. John Gladstone
had, I think, I'm going to say, six children
of which I believe William Gladstone was
the youngest. So the line wasn't perhaps
quite as direct as all that. However, it
was never discussed. And in fact, John Gladstone
was somewhat revered in my family as the
man who had made the family from humble beginnings,
made a lot of money. And he was described
in the family as a corn trader. And it was
only really during the incredibly important
period of Black Lives Matter that it began
to come to my attention that he had in fact
made a great deal of money from holding people
in slavery in Guyana and Jamaica. And this
then started to be something that was discussed
in quite a fevered way by people in the media
because John Gladstone had very particularly
made the largest amount of money through
Britain's compensation scheme at abolition.
He made the largest amount of money of any
British slave owner. Now, that does not mean
that he made the largest amount of money
from holding people in slavery, but it is
extremely significant. and, um, very unjust.
And I began to, um, to really understand
then that all of my privilege of which there
is an immense amount and all of my family's
privilege had stemmed from this. Now, actually,
I've just said all of the privilege and I
don't think it really matters whether it's
all of it, 90% of it, 10%, 5% of it, because
it's not a quantifiable thing. It is a qualifiable
thing. And there is no doubt to me that William
Gladstone, his younger son would not have
been Prime Minister, if his father had not
had a great deal of money. Ergo, I think
that my family would not be the family it
is without that money. And this came to me
like a steam train. And I was very shocked
by it. I think I've always felt a sense of
societal responsibility or some form of guilt
or ill ease at my privilege. I mean, I'm
very lucky. I went to a fantastic school,
fantastic university, never struggled to
have food on the table, lived a very, very,
very comfortable life in the 0.01% of the
planet, whatever it is. But I'd always had
a sort of sense of slight ill ease with that.
Not in a George Orwellian manner, by which
I mean, I didn't want to go off and sort
of change my lifestyle dramatically, but
I felt a little bit ill at ease and, and
then to understand that this somewhere a
good amount of this privilege had come from
the incredible crime of holding people in
slavery, the brutal, unpleasant, nasty criminal
activities, was a great shock and it was
magnified My exposure to this was magnified
through inquiries by two things. One was
that John Gladstone received the largest
amount of compensation at abolition. And
anyway, compensation was a brutal and ridiculous
notion. But secondly, William Gladstone was
regarded as the most famous man in the world
because he was four times prime minister
to Queen Victoria. And so inevitably the
lens of discussion, public opinion, criticism,
questioning was focused to quite a large
extent on me, me being the oldest son of
the oldest son, et cetera, et cetera. And
initially I very much put my hands up in
the headlights and just tried to hide away
and hope this would go. And then I thought
to myself, well, hold on a second, this did
happen. And I think it takes a bit of time
to come to terms with these things. I thought
to myself, hold on, this is profoundly unpleasant,
but it is the truth. And is there something
that I could do which would not right the
wrongs of the past because that can't be
done. They're so great. They're so huge.
And anyway, the past is the past, but do
something that might make the world a better
place today. And, and that was really what
led me to being involved in the foundation
of, um, the heirs of slavery advocacy group
that you mentioned. I think it's worth saying
that there is no there's really no precedent
for how to behave because Britain generally
and my family are not exceptional by any
means have buried this under the carpet.
This has been a conspiracy to cover up the
appalling parts of our history. And Britain
has done that extremely effectively for many
hundreds of years. We talk about the glorious
things, and we completely brush under the
carpet the bad things. So there was no precedent
for how to do it. So I met with a couple
of a few like-minded souls, and we formed
the advocacy group. And that's where we are
now, if that's to answer the question sufficiently,
Stephen.
The University of Wisconsin's Department
of History sets out reasons for studying
history as follows, and I quote, history
gives us the tools to analyze and explain
problems in the past. It positions us to
see patterns that might otherwise be invisible
in the present, thus providing a crucial
perspective for understanding and solving
current and future problems. As you've already
mentioned, you are fortunate to have attended
two of England's most famous educational
institutions, Eton College and Oxford University.
Do you believe your illustrious education
prepared you well for the realities of the
British history, especially as it pertains
to slavery? And what aspects of the current
teaching of history in British schools would
you alter?
Another interesting question with many strands
to it. I very much agree that history teaches
us how to deal with the current situation
in the world and shows us patterns. And I
think that this is probably at the nub of
the work that I'm trying to do in my own
modest way to correct some of the ills of
the past. What I think is interesting in
this particular context that we're discussing
is that the ills of slavery are still very
much felt around the world today. And I think
it's hard to understand systemic racism,
societal inequality, the difficulties, particularly
that many people feel through not knowing
where they were from, having been snatched
from their homes by my forebears. I think
all of these things are relevant now. And
until I began to understand about the ills
of holding people in slavery by visiting
Guyana, I didn't really understand the impact
that these crimes against humanity were having
today and were having on the way that I was
brought up. And there is, I mean, it is staggering.
You mentioned my school there, Eton College,
an extremely famous school. When I was there,
it had about 1300 boys. And I think there
were probably about four boys of colour,
and everybody else was white. So this leads
us very clearly. I mean, it was a marvelous
school. I'm not criticizing it. It was absolutely
marvelous on many, many levels. And Um, I
think that I'm not criticizing it. It did
everything for me without that school, without
the privilege of my education. I don't think
I'd have made anything of my life. And this
is, this is about inequality. So I'm not
talking just in negatives, but I am saying
that I am not an historian. I have very little
knowledge of history, but I've learned a
great deal about the ills that my family
visited on people of African descent and
indeed Indian descent through my family's
involvement in indentured labour. But I think
that my sense is that it would be very useful
for history to tell these stories for a number
of different reasons. But I think One of
the most important ones is so that people
who are of colour actually have given a sense
of a place in British history, even if it
isn't a pleasant place in the past, that
they feel that their struggles, The crimes
that my soul committed are recognized and
acknowledged. And I think that it seems to
me, and as I say, I'm not an historian, I
didn't, I did history until the first level
that you could stop doing it. And I didn't
read it. I didn't study it again after that.
But it seems like it is fundamentally a conspiracy
to weave certain narratives and in so doing
to leave out other narratives. And I think
if we're to make a more equal society, which
is fundamentally a better society, I mean,
I struggle to sort of see how one can not
make a better, a more equal society wouldn't
be a better one, that it would be best just
to tell these stories. Tell the stories of
what people such as my great-great-grandfather
did. Tell about the evils of the empire,
the British empire, and balance things out
a little bit. It doesn't seem terribly complicated
to me. I mean, I think that we do have to
try to, and I think one of the reasons that,
you know, this is wonderful that you and
I are talking, I think that we do have to
try and take the sting out of all of this.
I think that one of the big challenges is
that People, there's too much culture war,
there's too many arguments, there's too many
fighting, too much fighting, and I think
we just need to say this happened, this is
a matter of fact, this is a story, this is
as big a story as The other things that happen
that you've been taught about at school,
at university, but it is significant. And
we don't need to fight about it. It's in
the past. And the reason that we need to
tell that story is that it helps us, as I've
said, to educate us about our place now in
the world. But I think as importantly, it
would help to bring us together as people.
You first came to my attention after reading
an article on slavery, which was published
in The Guardian on August 19th, 2023. It
is recorded that you were moved to tears
after learning about your ancestors' exploits,
Sir John Gladstone, saying, and I quote,
I felt terrible. I really, really hated it.
It was a shock and I felt absolutely sick.
Charlie, I'm sure our listeners are as intrigued
as I was. Please talk us through the intense
sorrow you experienced when it dawned on
you that the great name of Gladstone is stained
by slavery.
I think that the word, a very good verb there
is dawned. I mean, this was probably in reality,
not a single moment. I think it was a dawning
that ended up having a sort of tsunami like
quality to it. And I think that overcame
me. It was a realization that that this great
history that I'd endlessly been taught about
was actually only a part of the story. And
I felt shocked. And I touched on this earlier.
I felt incredibly sad, very anxious. I still
do, Stephen. I mean, I still don't. You know,
I don't want to be having this conversation.
I wish it wasn't me. I, you know, it's not,
it's not, it's, I am talking from a position
of immense privilege. I'm living in Great
Britain. I'm, you know, I'm a white man.
I had this incredible education. I've, you
know, very healthy. all these things, but
I, I wish it wasn't me. I don't feel comfortable
doing this. I still feel anxiety about it.
I still feel, I still feel bruised by it,
but I've made it very clear to myself that
it's not about me. And I think that having
gone through this incredible and intense
shock and sorrow and guilt, And people say,
incidentally, that you can't feel guilt about
something that your ancestors did. Well,
that's a matter of semantics. I mean, I feel
guilty about it. I feel bad about it. So,
you know, if people say I shouldn't do then
that's got nothing to do with them. And I
am only working on behalf of myself and some
other members of my family. But I think that
having felt this guilt and felt this intense
shame and sorrow and understanding that all
of my privilege or whatever proportions I
said earlier, you can't necessarily quantify
it was built on the misery of others. I had
to I think I had three choices, really, essentially.
One was to sort of wallow in self-doubt,
misery, disgust. The other was to bury my
head, or a sort of combination of burying
my head and being on the offensive and saying
it's got nothing to do with me, it happened
in the past. And the third was really to
come out and try and do something good. And
I think it's, it's, there's no doubt that
I began to understand after a while when
the tsunami had slightly sort of abated that
actually, it was no good wallowing in my
own upset. It's got, it's nothing to do with
me. It's, it's not about me. I, if there's
something useful that I can do, however small,
If there's something useful that I can do
to help to make in however small a way the
wrongs of the past, turn them into something
a bit more right, then I'd like to find that
opportunity. But I think it took a time to
come out from this because as I said before,
there wasn't what you might call a conventional
behaviour here. There wasn't a sort of indication,
a roadmap as to what it was that you should
do. And it was really through the CARICOM
10-point plan that I began to understand
there were things that I could do. And I
think one of the first things that they ask
from nations, they're not asking individuals,
but I'm not a nation, I'm an individual.
was acknowledgement and apology. And I began
to understand how that how important that
is. And I think that that I suddenly it sort
of didn't deep dawn on me suddenly, and this
is to use your word dawn, you know, I felt
awful, I felt I wished it would all go away.
I felt guilty. I felt sad. I felt the more
I learned about it, the more horrified I
felt. But then when someone alerted me to
the CARICOM 10-point plan, and I read it
and it all made sense to me. It's an incredibly
practical, simple, sensible document and
I can't really understand why anyone except
for the most entrenched on particular side
of the right-wing side of the spectrum would
be against it. The first thing that CARICOM
are asking from my country and indeed by
extension people like me is apology and acknowledgement.
And I can do that. It's not that difficult
to say sorry to someone and to acknowledge
that what happened was a crime against humanity.
Now, that's a matter of definition. I believe
it was a crime against humanity. I think
it doesn't matter whether you think it was
or wasn't. It was clearly a massive crime
and it was completely wrong. And it was appalling
and people are asking me to say sorry. So
all that I really started out by doing is
trying to find out how I might, who I might
say sorry to. I'm really sorry that my family
were complicit in what I regard as a crime
against humanity and were significant perpetrators
in that. And I acknowledge fully the hurt
that it caused and that it continues to cause
to people of colour all over the world. And
that seemed to me to be a fairly simple beginning.
I think there are a lot of strands that I
would like to extend from that because I
do believe that my government and indeed
other governments are essentially populist
governments and that until their population
are advocating for something they will not
stand up and do it. So I believe that we
have to try to change the debate in this
country away from a culture war into a wider
acknowledgement that the ills of slavery
were appalling and are still being felt today.
And if I can just bring some people to the
table, in doing that, then then that is that
is an achievement. And if hundreds or 1000s
of other people and there are tens if not
hundreds of thousands of other people in
Britain alone who have benefited in similar
ways to me, and it's a matter of degree,
some no doubt more, some less, but have benefited.
If we could all get together and say, this
is awful, let's remove the culture war from
this, let's remove the sting from this, and
let's just say sorry and in so doing, acknowledge
the ills of our society, and in so doing,
try to persuade our government that there
are other aspects of CARICOM's plan that
are practical and useful, then that would
be the best that I could do.
Speaking of intense sorrow, I'm interested
to see that in 2023, you, Charlie Gladstone,
Richard Atkinson, John Dower, Rosemary Mecklenburg,
Alex Renton, Laura Trevelyan, and Robin Wedderburn,
formally asked that the descendants of slavery
extend a hand of friendship and forgiveness
to you, children who are heirs of slavery.
Pursuant to your request, a collective called
Heirs of Slavery was founded with the express
purpose of acknowledging slavery as a crime
against humanity and dealing with its ongoing
consequences. Charlie, this is really a significant
project. In a language an ordinary person
in the street would understand, please explain
what Heirs of Slavery is about. And what
if I were to say to you, so what?
Yeah, I mean, I think Heirs of Slavery is
about so many things that I've touched on
before. And I think that it's an attempt
to acknowledge and apologize for the crimes
of our forebears. We're all people who have
benefited in some way or other from having
ancestors who held people in slavery. And
it's really a group just to try to address
that and to get people together to share
ideas as to what we might do in order to
make the world a better place. And I suppose
at its most extreme, our ultimate goal would
be to get the government to sit up and listen
and to consider what they might do to help
those people who were held in slavery, ancestors
through, I think, targeted overseas aid,
particularly social economic aid in healthcare,
aid in education. And I think that it'll
take a long time for us to get there. But
the most important thing that I feel I can
do, and the group is a disparate group of
people with different histories and different
experiences and different emotions and different
skill sets. But what I think, what I would
like to try to do is try to remove this from
a culture war. In Britain, broadly speaking,
I think that there are three groups of people.
There are, in terms of attitudes to this,
those that have considered it, there are
three groups of people. There are those who
agree with what we've done, which is to acknowledge
it, make an apology and see if there are
ways in which we in whatever way we can,
can help to address some of the ills that
are still common in society through the crimes
of slavery. There are those who just aren't
interested and don't care and there are those
who are radically against what we're doing
and say that it was in the past, there's
nothing that we can, it's not our business
to deal with the past, you can't feel guilt
about the past. I think that what I'm trying
to do is to try to remove the culture war
from this by saying to those who are advocating
for the British government to make apologies
and to help with reparations, let's walk
together, all of us that are involved in
this from all sides of the debate, let's
walk together, let's sort of get into lockstep
and see if there are ways in which we can
make the future just a bit better. And I
think in order to do that, We have to try
to take the sting out of the argument. And
I think I would hold my hands up to people
and say, look, it's complicated, but it happened.
The ills are still being felt today. Let's
try to do something together so that we can
walk into the future and make the future
a better place. And people, this is rhythm
with what about tree. I mean, I, whenever
I do a public event talking about this, there'll
be people in the audience who say, well,
what's about the ills of, of contemporary
slavery, modern slavery, or what about this
or what about that? And I say, you know,
what about them? I'm just doing one thing.
And that is using my position of privilege,
which was essentially a function to some
extent of my ancestors holding people in
slavery, to try to make the world a better
place by talking about this and by apologizing.
And I think in so doing, what we might be
able to do is to try to remove the desire
for reparations from being seen by people
in Britain as punitive fines. to being sensible,
generous, liberal, overseas aid to help people.
And I think that if we can slightly take
the sting out of this argument, we will make
progress. Because until we make progress
and take the sting out of it, the government
aren't just going to pay any attention to
us. Unless the government pay attention,
there are not going to be reparations. Obviously,
the request is for governments to pay reparations.
And so I feel that we have to try to get
people on side. And I think the best way
to get people on side is to say, look, it
happened. It's still being a lived experience.
There are millions of people around the world
who don't know their origins. They don't
know where they came from. There are millions
of people who live in poverty without basic
health care. And this is a direct function
of slavery. And we can help them. And it's
not about being fined for something that
happened 200 years ago. It really isn't.
It's happening now.
Your colleague, Alex Renton, published a
piece in The Guardian on October 23rd, 2024,
entitled, To My Distant Cousin, Justin Welby,
Our Family's Slavery History is Truly Awful.
Let's Be Open About It. Alex wrote the following,
and I quote, Last year, some of us set up
heirs of slavery to encourage others who
were ready to acknowledge that their ancestors
profited from enslavement to support attempts
to heal the still open wounds. When people
come forward, we suggest they research the
history fully and listen to those descended
from the other side of the story. I have
done that with people all over the UK and
at the sites of the Caribbean plantations
that my ancestors never visited. I am still
learning. How crucial is it to be honest
about this incredibly traumatic past? What
concrete actions are you taking to encourage
those who share your past to be open and
educated about it?
I mean, that was Alex Renton speaking and
not me. And Alex is a man for whom I have
a great deal of respect. And I think he and
I agree very substantially on this. I think
that what, so I just, you know, pain to point
out that that wasn't me writing that, that
was Alex. What steps, the question at the
end is, sorry, just repeat the question at
the end of that, Alex, Stephen, sorry.
What concrete actions are you taking to encourage
those who share your past to be open and
educated about it?
Yes, I think that, sorry, yes. I mean, I
think that doing this podcast, for example,
being on the front page of The Guardian and
Observer, being on the BBC, doing a major
feature in The Economist and a podcast with
The Economist magazine, these are the actions.
This is me just standing up and saying, I
acknowledge this. This was awful. These effects
are still being felt. And I'm trying to get
this discussion out in the open, that's the
best action that I can do. And I think that
I didn't have to do it. I felt massively
compelled personally to do it as indeed did
other members of my family. And I should
acknowledge that some of my children, my
brother, one of my nephews, they're very,
very active and courageous in doing this.
And I think that that is the best thing that
we can do is get this conversation out there.
And that's really all I think that I can
do that's really concrete. I don't want to
be self-aggrandizing, but I mean, this was
a major news story, the Guardian story. I
think it was covered over several pages in
The Observer. It was a major story in The
Economist, on the BBC. These are the biggest
news channels in the world, the Guardian,
the BBC, in the English-speaking world. And
we were right at the front of those. And
I think that that is probably the most dramatic
thing that we can do. And of course, now
it's harder to keep that debate going, because
as we know, these newspapers and news channels
want news stories. And that was a news story.
So we got it out there. And as I say, some
people vehemently disagreed. Some people
vehemently agreed, most people don't really
even remember or care, but at least we got
it out there and we started to have a conversation.
And I think in terms of concrete action,
that's the best thing we can do. Now, I'm
60 years old, and I think that it's more
relevant what my children are doing. or their
generation. And some of my children and one
of my nephews are very, very actively involved
in just discussing this, just talking about
it. And I think it's really the main thing
that we can do is talk about it. I mean,
we also went to Guyana at the invitation
request of the University of Guyana and the
Guyanese Reparations Council and we made
an apology and they wanted us to go there
and we went there and again some people think
that was right and some people think it was
wrong and I'm just trying not to really concern
myself with either groups of people. I don't
want to bask in the approbation of people
who think it was right and equally I'm not
going to wallow in the negativity of people
who think it was wrong. I'm just going to
say This is what we're doing. And that's
the most concrete thing we can do because
we have, we have to a greater or lesser extent,
we brought this out into the open and had
a conversation about it. And we've said,
this was evil. It should it should never
have happened. But it did happen. The ills
are being felt today. So let's say sorry
to those that are suffering from those ills
and let's see if we can get governments to
a position where they will take reparations
more seriously and you know successive successive
British governments and I'm a Briton, my
passport is British, successive British governments
and ministers just back this away straight
away and I think that that's because they
know that the popular opinion is not with
me but if I can start to get popular opinion
with me, then there is some chance that there
will be reparations.
If I may, let me take a devil's advocate
stance. What if I make the case that previous
events are part of the past? No matter how
terrible, we have no right to tamper with
history. In any case, some humans were enslaved
by the divine's inherent order. God had a
plan. Due to their incomplete humanity, slaves
had no rights, and their suffering was regarded
as neither morally significant nor inconsequential
compared to that of domestic animals. Furthermore,
in a society where lives were managed by
more advanced and civilized individuals,
slaves were happier and more prosperous since
they lacked the capacity to manage their
own affairs. Charlie, given that the US election
of 2024 made it abundantly clear that we
are now living in a post-truth world where
morality is debatable. What's wrong with
me playing devil's advocate? What does it
mean to be a human?
Well, there's a question for a high level
philosopher there, and I'm not absolutely
sure that I can answer all of this. I mean,
if you spouted all that stuff about, sort
of devil's advocate stuff about Britain being
great civilizers, I'd just tell you you're
a lunatic. I can't see what was particularly
civilized about this behaviour of putting
people into these ships and carrying them
in shackles across the ocean. If that's what
civilization is, then heaven help us, we're
all doomed. So I'd say you're a complete
crackpot and of course part of this debate
is not really getting too involved in these
sort of nutty arguments because they are
essentially the sort of foundations of cultures
which are not productive in getting arguments.
further progress. But I think that, you know,
this again goes plays into this sort of piece
of, this isn't really about the past, it's
about its impact on the present and the future.
And so, I mean, I'm very used to people,
you know, disagreeing of what I'm doing here,
and I'm completely at ease with it. I mean,
some people say that dinosaurs didn't exist
and all the rest of it. The world was created
in seven days. And I say, that's fine. You
believe that. I'll believe what I'm going
to do. But I'm not going to try and persuade
you otherwise, because that's like trying
to persuade someone that black is actually
indeed white and red is indeed green. It's
a pointless exercise. I think that what I
would say is that visiting Guyana and indeed
looking across Britain, it's very clear that
the ills of slavery are still widely felt
and painful today and that I can do something
to help today. And so I think that my answer
would be that. I mean in terms of the sort
of philosophy of the meaning of life, I mean
I think that If we can generally try to do
good, then I think we should try to do good.
I'm a great believer that when we die, whatever
we believe and whatever happens to us, whether
we're burned or put in the ground or in the
sea or whatever it is, that ultimately the
only legacy that we we leave behind of any
significant beyond the genetic legacy is
a legacy of love and the impact that we've
had on the people that we've met along the
way. And that if I can just in some small
way make the world a better place through
this work, then that will have been at least
a decent opportunity to turn the evils of
the past into some good for the future.
The title of our podcast is Slavery, How
to Pay for the Sins of Our Forefathers. In
2014, an award-winning author and journalist,
Ta-Nehisi Coates, published a seminal article
in The Atlantic entitled, The Case for Reparations.
By taking a thorough approach to the reparations
issue, Coates' work exemplifies the diverse
variety of viewpoints provided by scholars.
He calls on Americans to see reparations
as, and I quote, a revolution of the American
consciousness, a reconciling of our self-image
as the great democratizer with the facts
of our history, rather than as a handout,
a payoff, cash money, or a reluctant bribe.
Now, according to a BBC report, Rachel Reeves,
the Chancellor of the Exchequer, speaking
at the Commonwealth Heads of Government on
October 25th, 2024, said, the UK is not going
to be paying out reparations for the transatlantic
slave trade. Charlie, in the light of our
podcast theme, how would you advise the British
government, including all British public
institutions that are tainted by slavery,
to deal with the issue of reparations? And
are reparations the best way for heirs of
slavery to pay for the sins of their forefathers?
I think there's so many strands to this conversation,
to this question, Stephen, and I think that
I'm glad that you've asked this because I
feel that it's really the elephant in the
room and it's kind of the nub of this whole
conversation. And that question is, should
we be paying reparations? Now, there are
so many strands to this. And I think the
author that you quote writes quite beautifully
about the impact that paying reparations
might have on the American psyche, which
I think is really quite eloquent and I hadn't
read before and quite beautiful and I agree.
I mean, I think there are many strands. I
think that people should, There are two different
types of people in this debate. There are
individuals and families and there are governments.
And I think that individuals and families
should help in as much as they can, making
clear that they are helping in targeted ways
and ways where money will get where it is
best needed and do as much of that um work
as they reasonably can and I think we have
to be practical in that way and some people
have been able to give large sums of money
and some have been able to give small sums
of money and that is just a reality and a
fact of life and I think that it's it's great
that people are able to give anything and
um I think that um we need to kind of try
and just consider that we don't get too bound
up in sort of in the numbers here. I think
that perhaps the more significant question
is what impact governments could have and
I think it's of course Rachel Reeves has
said this and the previous government in
Britain said exactly the same thing. And
Rishi Sunak, who was the last Prime Minister
of Britain before the current one, said,
and I'm paraphrasing, something like, you
know, we are not going to be paying reparations
because history is history and we're dealing
with the present and the future. But the
point is that the present and the future
are related. the lives of people are deeply
and profoundly related to what did happen
in the past. So again I think I go back to
this idea that I don't think British governments
will do anything about this until they feel
that public opinion is on their side. Because
ultimately, you know, governments care more
about being elected and staying in power
than they do about making radical choices
that are better for the world and for humanity.
And I'm afraid I just think that's just generally
a fact. That's not to say individuals within
government aren't great people. And we have
some outstanding politicians in this country
and as most countries do in the world. So,
but I think, you know, the fact is that governments
won't do anything that is likely to be hugely
unpopular. They act under pressure. But most
importantly, I think if we could change the
debate in a generation to be one that said
that Britain's history was, did have these
appalling sides to it, and they're having
an impact on the world today. And there are
ways in which we could help. And some of
those ways, some of those ways are to do
with targeted overseas aids. I'm interested
specifically, particularly in in overseas
aid to Guyana and Jamaica through my own
family's history. But I think that we need
to try to get this debate out in the open.
And I mean, we're in a strange place because
very recently, you know, Britain's overseas
aid budget has been sliced and the American
government have persuaded them it seems to
spend more money on defense than overseas
aid. And I'm not, again, I'm not an expert
on the mechanics of that or the impact of
it. But I mean, I think that that you know
it's easy for these these politicians will
bat it away when whilst they know that it's
not a big and important issue but but if
it becomes an issue that the general public
either you know start to care about and discuss
then they might well be interested in in
getting involved in paying reparations you
and your colleagues are now focusing your
energies on running a collective heirs of
slavery
Please talk to us about your challenges in
running heirs of slavery. And what is your
biggest fear?
Well, I'm, I should point out, I'm actually
a founder member of heirs of slavery, but
I'm not involved directly in this anymore.
I'm a supporter, but I'm not on the board
anymore because I'm, uh, my time has gone
for that. And I'm now involved in, in, uh,
beyond my own work, which is, you know, my
day job I'm involved in, in representing
my own family. And I think it's worth pointing
out that really heirs of slavery is fundamentally
a coalition of interested and engaged people
in this and a meeting place for people to
meet and discuss ideas. So in many ways,
it's a sort of catalytic center. But what
we're really trying to do is just to get
the debate out there and try to help individuals
such as myself, to understand and acknowledge
the past and its impact on the present. And
that's really the best that we can do. I
think that's what we're doing. We're not
politicians. You know, we don't have the
key to the Chancellor's purse. We are just
trying to do, show people what they can do.
And many hundreds of people have come to
us and said, I'm interested. And we talk
to them and deal with their own personal
interests and their needs and try to point
them in the right direction. Some of them
come and go away again. Some become more
interested. but we're essentially just trying
to act as a meeting point for people and
in so doing try to make a noise. My own personal
work and it is really just a coalition of
individuals you know it's a body but it's
It's not an official body. It doesn't have
a governmental position or a sort of corporate
position. It's really just to discuss this
and get it out there. And as I say, I mean,
it sounds absurd, but 10 years ago, I wasn't
aware that my own ancestor held people in
slavery. I'm now just trying to do the best
that I, along with my other members of my
family, my wife and my nephew and several
of my children and my brother, very keen,
all of us, we're trying to just discuss this.
And I suppose the word that I haven't used
thus far, which I think is really important,
is to normalize this discussion, to put it
out there, to say as much as we were involved
in the Second World War, or as much as anything
in British history, this happened. It is
regrettable. What we can do is now try to
make the world a better place through the
understanding of that.
Finally, Charlie, please advise our listeners
where they may connect with the work of Heirs
of Slavery.
Well, there is a website, an heirs of slavery
website, Stephen, and there's a button on
that that they can request to sign up to
a very good newsletter, which is occasional.
The group occasionally puts on events and
is happy to listen to people and their concerns.
I think that's the best way to get in touch
and to find out about the work that we're
loosely and collectively doing. I, as I say,
and I think this is quite sort of important
really, and I think everyone else all of
the other people on the council of the heirs
of slavery, as I say I'm no longer on that
council, I'm not quite sure who is but it's
still there, are just trying to make sense
of the past and try to walk in lockstep with
our brothers and sisters from all sides of
the divide towards trying to make this appalling
set of circumstances trying to turn it into
something better and just not ignore it and
i think that just try to remove the sting
and the frustration that that people who
are descended from those who are held in
slavery must feel that britain won't listen
it won't acknowledge just try to get that
out there and uh my particular in particular
my colleague Laura Trevelyan who is one of
the founders has just been so dedicated in
just trying to talk about it, but to try
to talk about it in a non-confrontational
way, it seems so important to me. Because
if we're just fighting about it, and arguing
and arguing, and what's right and what's
wrong, and you're right and I'm wrong, and
this is this and this is that, then I just
don't think it makes any progress. I think
it just becomes yet another socio-political
argument. But if we could all in the world
just start to agree that it happened and
it was horrendous, then that's the best thing
that we could do.
Charlie Gladstone, thank you very much for
being a guest on this podcast.
Thank you, Stephen, and thanks to your listeners
for their forbearance. It's been really interesting,
and I'm really grateful to you for asking
such considered and thought-provoking questions.
I've done my best to answer them. I'm not
really sure that someone can answer these
in an hour's podcast, but it's great what
you're doing, and congratulations to you
for having the energy and drive to do it.
Thank you. This podcast was brought to you
by the Kamugasa Challenge in partnership
with Democracy in Africa. Democracy in Africa
is a platform dedicated to building a bridge
between academics, policymakers, practitioners,
and citizens. The third episode in our leadership
series is entitled Climate Leadership. in
a Multipolar New World Order, an interview
with Sir Jonathon Porritt, a well-known British
writer, broadcaster, and environmentalist.
The podcast will go live on June 9th, 2025.
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Until next time, goodbye.