Hello, welcome back to Conversations with
Stephen Kamugasa. This is the first episode
in our 2025 Leadership Series. Today's guest
is Ms. Sally Percy, an experienced business
journalist and editor who specializes in
writing about leadership and management.
Sally is the author of three books, The Disruptors,
21st Century Business Icons, and reached
the top in finance. She has also edited several
business magazines, including Edge, the official
journal of the Institute of Leadership in
the UK. Sally has a degree in modern history
from the University of Oxford. In this episode,
we discuss the topic, why great leadership
will make you question everything. Ms. Sally
Percy, Welcome.
Thank you. Thank you for having me.
Your book, 21st Century Business Icons, is
both powerful and timely. Local and international
businesses frequently have more clout and
influence than any other social, political
or economic body in today's tightly knit
global society. Investment in global communication
networks and technology will only strengthen
the global connectivity of individuals, financial
markets, and organizations as the 21st century
plays itself out before our own eyes. This
reality raises several questions, some of
which we will attempt to address in this
episode, such as what functions should business
have in the 21st century? Are businesses
the only economic actors? What obligations
come along with businesses increasing might
and sway? Is the only goal in business to
increase wealth? Or are there also noble
and social goals that need to be taken into
account? But first, Sally, can you please
tell us something about your childhood? And
how did your childhood experience color your
appreciation of business leadership as an
adult? to be able to write a powerful book
such as this.
Oh, well, thank you. That's a really interesting
question. And I've actually never been asked
about my childhood before. But one of the
things I would say is, obviously, you mentioned
that I have a degree in history from the
University of Oxford. And I was really quite
young when I decided that I wanted to go
to Oxford. When I set my sights on going,
I was actually only about 10 at the time,
which I think was quite a young age. And
I was really, all through my teenage years,
this was my ambition and this is what I really
focused on. And I really enjoyed studying
history at school. And that was my favorite
subject when I was a teenager. And obviously,
I then went on to study at university. And
I think the thing about history is you're
actually studying, well, you study lots of
different things in history, but it's a lot
about people. It's a lot about leadership.
UK history is about kings and queens in there
and prime ministers and things like that.
So I think that kind of love of history and
reading stories and learning about influential
people, people who made a difference in the
world, I think that, and actually, you know,
some of those people kind of shaped the world
that we actually now live in today, although
we don't necessarily think of it in that
way. So I think, I think those kind of experiences
really, as a teenager and as a young student
of Oxford, I think, If I think about them
now, I think they probably did perhaps contribute
to me sort of going on to write a book about
leadership, because I really like diving
into people's pasts and seeing what motivates
them. And you'll know from reading the book
is basically sort of a mini potted history
of all these different people and what we
can learn from them. So I think there's kind
of really quite a strong correlation there
with my history studies.
On page 269 of your book, 21st century business
icons. You draw the following conclusion,
and I quote, the major question that naturally
arises at the end of this book is surely
the following. What do the 21st century business
icons profiled here have in common with each
other? Is there such a thing as a single
blueprint for success? Now, I know we are
starting at the back end of the book, But
I have a question that I'm sure our listeners
would like to know, and it is as follows.
How would you define a leader in business?
And is there a single blueprint one can point
to and say, that's what a business leader
looks like?
Yes, a couple of very interesting questions
there. I would define a leader pretty much
probably in any context, not just in business,
as someone who directly or indirectly influences
other people. So obviously, you know, someone
who directly influences people might be their
line manager, someone who indirectly influences
people might be, you know, someone you follow
on social media, and they bought a product
and recommend it, and you think that's great.
So it's about directly or indirectly influencing
other people, and it's about influencing
what they think and what they do, And it's
also about motivating them to behave in a
certain way and achieve certain goals. So
motivation is a really important aspect of
being a leader, to be a good leader. You've
got to be able to motivate others. In terms
of, is there a single blueprint to what a
leader looks like? I mean, you would probably
guess, for me, the answer to that, I would
say no, there is no single blueprint. You
can be a introvert, you can be an extrovert,
you can you know, come from any kind of background
really, you can have any sort of specialist
technical knowledge. What I would say though
is that there are some common threads that
you see, and I've picked up in my book, that
they do have a lot of attributes in common,
sort of hard work, self-discipline, a strong
sense of purpose, a long-term perspective.
great vision. Something else that also comes
very very strongly linking to what I said
about motivating people is a willingness
to empower other people and build strong
teams. Something else that comes through
is a willingness to listen and to take advice.
Also, a willingness to fail and a willingness
to take risks. I mean, in terms of my book,
most of the leaders that I profile are entrepreneurs.
And therefore, by definition, they're leaders
of their business because they started and
grew them. But I do feature a couple of leaders
who are not entrepreneurs.
Turning back to page seven of your book,
entitled Leadership icons of today, you write,
and I quote, in this section, you will read
about some outstanding men and women drawn
from different markets around the world,
who each bring their own unique perspective
to the practice of leadership. Sally, please
talk us through how you went about selecting
the leaders you write about. What was your
key criteria?
Well, the two principal criteria that I had
to begin with is I wanted them to still be
alive. So that ruled out Steve Jobs, for
example. And I wanted people who had changed
the world in some way. So if you try to imagine
our world today without that person in there,
what would it look like? And, you know, kind
of, so I really was looking for people who
had changed the world. And so I suppose,
you know, an obvious example here would be,
you know, trying to imagine the world without
Facebook, for example, you know, it's quite
hard, you know, so many people on Facebook,
but if you're not really anymore, we Facebook's
really kind of been a pioneer in the social
media space, and has led on to other things.
And obviously, Facebook now own WhatsApp,
and Instagram. So of Meta, the parent company.
So, you know, it was quite, you know, Facebook
really did change the world. Amazon, you
know, I mean, I order things on Amazon virtually
every week, really. So, to now, to try and
imagine a world without Amazon in it, I mean,
that would be, for me personally, quite inconvenient.
And then you look at, you know, you look
at a world without Elon Musk in it, I mean,
regardless you know, your personal views
on him, you know, he's really had a very
big impact on the world. So when I was kind
of looking for people, I really was looking
for people who changed the world in some
way. After that, I was really looking for
diversity of genders and nationalities and
sectors, just to make sure that the stories
were sufficiently varied and interesting,
because if every single case study was about
a man in the tech sector in the US, that
would get a bit dull after a while. Something
else that was also really important was this
was a book on leadership, so I was really
looking for people who had good advice on
leadership and who had shared their tips
and their philosophies on leadership, either
because they'd written a book or they'd been
interviewed or they might have written blogs
and articles, you know. I wanted to be able
to really unpick how they thought of themselves
as a leader and what kind of philosophies
they had, so that was really important. I
needed to be able to see what they thought
of as their leadership style. So those are
the different kinds of things I was looking
for.
You write on page 12 of your book the following,
and I quote, she said that GM must embrace
a culture where safety and quality come first
and code for the company's employees to raise
concerns quickly and forcefully. In doing
so, she effectively ushered in an era of
massive culture change for General Motors,
moving it away from a culture that was associated
with cutting costs and ignoring problems
to one that prized accountability, collaboration,
and honesty, while prioritizing customers
and their safety. Now, Peter Drucker, the
management consultant, educator, and author,
is famous for having come up with the phrase,
Culture eats strategy for breakfast. Given
Mary Barra's work at GM, could you kindly
discuss with us what you believe to be the
genuine definition of culture and what special
attribute do you believe Mary Barra possessed
to have initiated this significant change
at GM?
Well, personally, I would define culture
as the way that a group of people might think
and act. So an organization, and it's about
shared values as well, really. So organizational
culture, you know, you would expect the people
who work for that organization to probably
share a set of common values. And if they're
faced with a challenge that you would expect
them to understand and to know how to respond
in a certain way. And cultures are often
also obviously set at the top. So you really
expect the top, the leaders at the top of
the organization to be setting the tone when
it comes to culture and to be modeling, really,
the little values that they expect everyone
else to embrace. So that's what I would say
about culture. I mean, one of the things
about Mary Barra, quite distinctive is she
embraces the concept of servant leadership.
So that's a philosophy where leaders see
it as their goal as being to serve their
people and prioritise their growth, well-being
and empowerment. So it's not really about
this sort of authoritarian top-down leadership
that can be quite prevalent in organisations.
This is what I say you kind of do it. Servant
leadership really is kind of seeing yourself
as an enabler of other people. And it is
about ultimately being a role model as well,
but it's really about sort of finding ways
to bring out the best in your people, you
know, really empowering them to, you know,
bring out the good things and to, you know,
focus on acting on the good values that you
want to promote. So, I mean, I think if you
have that philosophy that you're there to
serve others, it really helps to bring out
a positive culture change and to people believe
you're not doing what you're doing purely
to serve yourself, but to bring about the
greater good. So in the case of Mary Barra's
case, she was obviously trying to improve
safety, the safety culture of General Motors.
So people really needed to believe that,
you know, she was genuine and sincere about
that, which I think came over very strongly.
But also it's kind of, you know, it's not
a sort of pointing fingers kind of, you've
got this wrong, you know, that authoritarian
sort of approach. It's more kind of, how
can we all work together to improve the safety
culture of this organization? So I think
that's the way that she went around doing
it. And now I think, it ultimately always
going to be more effective at influencing
other people. If, if those people believe
that you are sort of acting in a way, you
know, that you're kind of trying to further
the greater good of the world and not really
just furthering your your own agenda. And
I think that's really important, sort of,
in any leadership capacity, really, to always,
like, have that sort of bigger picture, because,
you know, whenever, we're all mortal, so,
you know, we're all here on Earth for a short
amount of time, and we only have so much,
so much time to make a difference in our
lives. So, you know, it's kind of really
important, I think, for each and every one
of us just to be thinking about how we can
always make that bigger impact and not just
thinking about ourselves on a day-to-day
basis or our immediate teams on a day-to-day
basis. How are we helping to change the world
in the way some of these leaders I mentioned
in the book are trying to change the world?
Because actually, we do all have it in our
power to help change the world, even if it's
in very small ways.
In Chapter 3 of 21st Century Business Icons,
You write on page 38 thus, and I quote, Brewer
herself studied chemistry at the private
Spelman College in Atlanta, a liberal arts
and science college that focuses on educating
women of African descent. Her time at Spelman
was a defining experience for her because
it enabled her to hone her critical thinking
skills. It also put her in an environment
of, in her own words, women who look like
me, but come from different walks of life.
Tragically, her father died of cancer when
she was in her last year of college, six
weeks before graduation. Sally, please talk
to us about why Rosalind Brewer's comments
at an interview with news channel CNN were
so controversial. How does Brewer deal with
racism? Give us an example.
I found Rosalind Brewer a really interesting
person to profile for the book and she was
just one of only two people, along with Mary
Barra I think, who wasn't actually an entrepreneur
who sort of founded the business that she
led. And actually, one of the sad things
was that she actually stood down as CEO of
Walgreens Boots Alliance a couple of days
before my book was published, which I thought
was a shame because she's such a good role
model and what she did, she was so extraordinary.
I mean, in terms of, you know, she's one
of very few black women to lead a really
large US company. And she had, No, she hadn't
had an easy run of it in life. She was born
to two parents who worked in the automotive
industry and didn't finish high school, but
they did really value education. She got
to the top by working incredibly hard. She
said in interviews about doing jobs that
other people didn't want to do. So she put
a lot of hard graft in it. And she's a real
champion of diversity. And she tries to teach
and train other people on diversity. Now,
in terms of her sort of CNN appearance, she
was actually being interviewed at the time
about how she promoted workforce diversity
within her business. So effectively, she
was being put on the spot and asked to comment
about diversity. It wasn't something that
she had was necessarily kind of launching
forth in a dedicated article or something,
you know, she was kind of being interviewed
at the time on this particular subject. And
she just gave the example of attending a
meeting with suppliers where the other side
of the table were all Caucasian males. And
I think she was just trying to say, well,
you know, that probably isn't really very
reflective of the workforce anymore. So,
you know, why are these situations occurring?
and she thought the comments were fairly
innocuous because I mean you know for quite
a few years obviously there's been you know
big push for greater diversity within the
workforce at all levels so she didn't necessarily
think that was particularly controversial
but she was criticized on right-wing websites
for discriminating against men and actually
she did receive death threats as a result
of what she said so It was quite scary, obviously,
for her. She had put herself out there in
the end with those comments, even though
she didn't necessarily think they were that
controversial. So, I mean, I think primarily
she deals with racism by virtue of being
an inspiring role model. You know, there's
a say in fiction writing about you know,
telling, sorry, showing, not telling. And,
you know, I think she's obviously a very
good example of that. She, you know, she's
shown what can be done. And, and in that
respect, she's paving the way for other women.
And when she was chief operating officer
of Starbucks, there was a very famous case
that was in the news. And after two young
black men were arrested on suspicion of trespassing,
and I think it's because they were sitting
in the cafe waiting for someone and they
hadn't ordered a drink. And The manager had
called the police and actually they hadn't
done anything wrong. They were just sitting
waiting for their contact to arrive. And
that caused a lot of controversy at the time
to Starbucks. And after that event, she did
sort of, I think, review kind of the culture
of the organization. And she helped to ensure
that staff were given racial bias training.
So she's been a proactive person in sort
of trying to help address racism within business.
In chapter 14 of 21st Century Business Icons,
we write on page 186 thus, and I quote, they
were never in it for the money. But today,
Sahin and Tureci are billionaires. Their
company, BioNTech, was valued at $35 billion
as of January 2023, and by the end of 2021,
It employed nearly 3,100 full-time employees.
Sahin remains CEO of the company. Tureci
is its chief medical officer. Tureci is also
president of the German-based Association
of Cancer Immunotherapy. In 2021, the pair
of scientists received German's Order of
Merit for their achievements in developing
a COVID-19 vaccine, one of the country's
highest honours. In a fast-changing world
of identity politics, are immigrants an asset
or a liability? And how can we educate ordinary
citizens that a coat of many colors is actually
a good thing for business, the arts, and
many other aspects of our society?
Well, this is a very interesting question.
The question of immigration is obviously
extremely topical due to the controversies
in many markets. I mean, I would say on the
topic of are immigrants an asset or a liability?
I mean, the answer to that is quite nuanced,
really. It's not a black and white question
because, you know, that's with so many things
in life. The answer is probably both. So,
you know, you look at, I mean, there's no
doubt that immigrants can make massive economic
contributions to companies. I mean, one of
the, and you mentioned the BioNTech founders
there, obviously they've done amazing things,
not just economically, but contributed to
world health. But Elon Musk, you know, the
world's richest man, he's actually an immigrant
to the US and, you know, he's quite influential
in their economy. You can see the huge contribution
that immigrants can make. On the other hand,
and this is something that academics write
about and they're far more knowledgeable
than me, but immigration, if you have widespread
immigration, it can hold down wages and therefore
impact on living standards. And, you know,
there can be kind of other detrimental effects
as well of large scale immigration, especially
if you haven't got your cultural integration
and, you know, that's not being managed effectively.
So I think, you know, kind of with immigration,
it's kind of, it can be a very good thing
as long as it's managed well. One thing I
do find in my work too is, you know, there's
a flip side of it. So in my market, people
tend to talk about immigration. when I interview,
because I interview leaders from all around
the world, and some of them talk a lot about
the problem of emigration, that basically,
you know, it can happen, for example, in
the finance profession, as people get trained
up, they become very skilled as finance professionals,
they might have a global qualification, and
therefore, they then move to other markets.
So what that then happens is their home market
is constantly battling against a talent brain
drain, really. I think, you know, my conclusion
as a result of all this on the subject of
migration, and this is, you know, my personal
view is that I wonder if it does contribute
to inequality really, you know, both a global
level and a local level. And really, I actually
think what we really need to be doing is
really kind of making sure that whoever we've
actually got in our society, that we're drawing
on all of their talents. and making sure
that, yes, I mean, people from different
backgrounds, people from different genders,
you know, social economic groups who may
be being left behind, but actually what we're
really trying to do is, you know, really
kind of bring everyone together because I
think one of my concerns at the moment is
I feel that the gap, and I certainly see
this in my own country, is I feel the gap
is just becoming wider and wider between
the haves and the have-nots. And I think
that's a shame in a world where, you know,
actually in many respects, things are getting
so advanced and, you know, there's incredible
things we can do in medicine, you know, we
can fly around the world, we can go to the
moon, you know, we can do amazing things.
And yet there are countries in the world
where large proportions of population don't
even have access to electricity and can't
switch on their lights. You know, so I think,
you know, I don't know, to me, it just does
seem a very sort of unequal world. And I
actually personally think that's kind of
one of the greatest sort of challenges that
we face today. And, and kind of actually,
you know, as leaders, something I think everyone
could be thinking about really is how can
they, you know, draw on some of the diverse
talents in their communities to kind of you
know, obviously enhances the business by
bringing all these kind of different perspectives.
And at the same time, it has the benefit,
actually, of, you know, having a positive
social impact. And one of the things you
talked about at the start, I think, is, you
know, can businesses have a nobler role?
It's not just about making money. And, you
know, when you see some of the politics that's
gone on today, some of the kind of fracturing
that's going on today, I think, you know,
thinking about, you know, how can we kind
of bring everyone together on this journey,
not just you know, maybe a sort of fairly
elite group of very highly educated people,
but how can we sort of bring everybody with
us? You know, I actually think that is one
of the most important questions facing leaders
today in politics and in business. So those
are my thoughts on the subject.
The title of our podcast is Why Great Leadership
Will Make You Question Everything. Professor
Shoshana Zuboff, Talking about her recent
book, The Age of Surveillance Capitalism,
The Fight for a Human Future at the New Frontier
of Power, said the following, and I quote,
surveillance capitalism is the story of the
digital revolution and how the early utopian
prospects of the web darkened into a rogue
mutation of capitalism marked by concentrations
of wealth, knowledge, and power unprecedented
in human history. Now, Gmail was launched
in 2004. Google subsequently admitted that
it has scanned private correspondence for
personal information. In the same year, Facebook
was founded. Its business model also based
on the capture of and access to personal
information The metaphor Zuboff uses is one
of conquest. With so little left to be, that
could be commodified, the last virgin territory
was private human experience. In 1986, 1%
of the world's information was digitized.
In 2013, it was 98%. Sally, in light of our
podcast theme, What are the consequences
of this new economic world order for democracy
and freedom? And how should we interpret
the worth of human rights in an age of giving
up our privacy for the sake of convenience?
Well, I mean, this is a very big topic. It's
a very complex topic. I think that you are
right in the sense that actually, you know,
we've seen that with some of the big tech
companies that actually, you know, there
is a great deal of wealth concentrated in
comparatively few companies, some of which
deal very heavily in personal information.
So I think that is true. I think that actually
in terms of digitalization, yes, on the one
hand, you know, it can impact on your privacy.
And I think in, you know, all of us as individuals
do have a responsibility to try and protect
our privacy actually online. And sometimes
it surprises me how much people do give away
about themselves, how they how much they
choose to, you know, kind of invade their
own privacy, technically. So I think, yes,
we can't always control necessarily what
big tech companies are doing. Obviously,
there have been a lot more data regulations
coming in, including the GDPR in Europe,
which is obviously intended, these things
are intended to protect us. So I think there
are protections there. I think we can protect
ourselves. But at the same time, while I
think technology can be a threat to democracy
if it's kind of used in the wrong way. At
the same time, it provides a lot of democracy.
I mean, people can go online and message,
if they want to, some of the most powerful
people in the world or respond to their tweets
or whatever it is. Or people can complain
about something they're not very happy with
online, and then they actually might get
a response when they haven't had any response
on the customer services team. No, so I think
actually, you know, it's a bit, just like,
you know, my response to the immigration
question, I suppose, you know, yes, technology
is kind of, yes, it's a good thing, and yes,
it's a bad thing. It's kind of both those
things, really. I mean, it depends, you know,
on the kind of way you look at it, really.
I mean, I, on the topic of personal information,
I don't stress about, I mean, I worry about
my bank details going to people I don't want
them to go to. A lot of my other personal
information available online, it's not really
probably much of interest to anyone, although
there are probably, you know, wouldn't necessarily
want everyone to kind of hack into my personal
computer and, you know, necessarily see all
my work on there or my family photos or whatever
it is that I keep on there. But, you know,
on balance, I actually kind of think the
advantages of technology and you know, at
the convenience that you talk about. On balance,
I think that they are kind of, they do outweigh
the disadvantages really. And I think it's
important that regulators and policy makers
are protecting us through the use of technology.
And I think, you know, with AI coming in,
you know, that's even more important because,
you know, there's a risk of bias decision-making,
all that kind of thing happening. And, you
know, algorithms making decisions about us
that could be really quite flawed. So there's
some real, real big ethical issues there.
But at the same time, I mean, you know, these
algorithms could be far more effective at
spotting cancers and things than humans actually
are, and they will make our world more efficient.
And maybe they might possibly help to address
the inequality issue. Although, you know,
they could also exacerbate the inequality
issue that I just mentioned as well. So,
you know, I think that's quite a threat there
really. So, I mean, the world is not going
to go backwards. Technology is not going
to disappear just like, you know, all the
machines that came out in the industrial
revolution. You know, it's just that we're
not going to be going back to living in caves
and not having Facebook anymore. That's not
going to happen. We've got to find a way
that we make peace with it and we live with
it. We look at the downsides, we look at
the plus sides, and we develop policies and
strategies that are always trying to make
the best of those things while always having
in mind the idea of how by doing this, in
the end, can we make the world a better place?
Because, you know, nothing is perfect. I
mean, you know, you see the big drive for
electric cars at the moment, not because,
of course, they're great, you know, on the
emissions front and things, but then they
need loads of mining for their batteries,
to get the minerals for their batteries.
And so, you know, that's bad for the natural
environment and, you know, then you've got
risks of child minors and all kinds of things.
It's very hard with anything in life to find
a really perfect solution. I think what really,
from a leader's perspective, is evaluating
the trade-offs. And I think that's where
leadership really comes in here. When you
look at any kind of problem, any kind of
scenario, and technology's one, it's really
always about ethical trade-offs, I think.
How much information do you need from people
you know, create a product or a solution
that is going to make a better difference
to their lives. And in the case of Facebook,
you know, yes, there's this handing over
of data and everything, personal privacy
and all that kind of thing. But actually,
if you look at Facebook on a positive side,
you can say, well, people connected with
people they've lost contact with years ago.
And suddenly, through Facebook, they're able
to find them and connect with them and catch
up and find out how about all their families
are. And then in a world of a loneliness
epidemic, which we have, actually, Facebook
brings people together. So you kind of, I
think you can look look at technology, it's
this very dark world controlled by a few
people. And certainly one of the things I
have found from doing my research is there
are a group of very influential people in
the tech sector, in the US really, who are
actually probably far more influential in
our lives than most of us actually realise.
And I certainly think that is true. But you
can kind of look at it as this dark thing,
or you can kind of look at it as all the
opportunities it brings, And I think if at
the end of the day, you said to people, well,
you can just go digital detox, you know,
don't do online banking, you have to go into
the bank anymore, you all your social media
will be cut off, set of emails, you can send
everyone a letter, you know, if you gave
people that kind of option, so would you
rather do that? You wouldn't get many people
saying yes, I don't really think so. And
I think it's really looking at how the world's
evolving, and kind of figuring out, you know,
how you can balance these trade offs. in
a way that ultimately, even if it's not perfect,
in the long term, overall creates more benefits
for society than disadvantages.
What is a common myth about your job as a
business journalist and editor?
Well, I think the most common myth is that
you can earn a lot of money from writing
books. So I do have to kind of and correct
people on that, even a book that does quite
well, especially as a business book, you
know, you're not likely to make yourself
rich from it, unless you write something
like Atomic Habits or something like that.
So that's probably quite the common myth.
But I think that actually, one of the things
about being a business journalist and editor,
you know, that I really like, is, you know,
being able to explore ideas, and you talk
to interesting people, and get different
perspectives on the world. And And then you,
and often I talk to people who go away and
make me think about things differently. And
I think, you know, that's a very important
thing. And I really value that because I
just get just such a broad perspective, you
know, from talking to different people. And
actually one of the things I like most is
talking to people in different countries
and, you know, hearing their perspectives
on the world. And, you know, it's kind of
really, been eye-opening for me, some of
the things I've learned from talking to different
people around the world. Because often, in
your own country, everything is seen through
the lens of your own country, with the immigration
thing being a big obvious example. In the
UK, they talk a lot about immigration. Like
I say, when I talk to leaders in other countries,
they talk about emigration, which is the
flip side of the same thing. And so it really
makes you sort of I think I have a job that
kind of makes me go away and question things
and it makes you sort of question the status
quo and also accepted thought and also because
it's your job as a journalist is to kind
of present a balanced view, it does make
you, I think, you know, you're not always
going to say, well, this is absolutely right,
or this is absolutely wrong. And, you know,
I think, I tend to think that most sort of
topics and things, you know, there is a bit
of nuance in them, really. And it's your
job as a journalist to not always, you know,
toe the party line, but to say things that
you know, maybe a bit controversial or may
make people think differently or, you know,
kind of, you know, it's part of your job
to sort of, I think, get people to sort of
challenge their own take on the world a little
bit. And that's kind of what I enjoy about
my job. I mean, I think one of the myths
people can have about as a journalist is,
oh, journalists just make things up, for
example. And actually, obviously not. Professional
journalists should be very vigilant about
fact checking, not just make things up. Also,
people would go, well, the news is so negative.
But of course, it's human nature. Journalists,
at the end of the day, journalists write
what other people are interested in reading,
right? If we didn't do that, we wouldn't
have a job. So if you said to me, Sally,
how was your holiday? And I said, oh, it
was lovely. I had a marvelous time. I just
sat by the pool drinking cocktails. You'd
think that was really dull. But if you said
to me, how was your holiday? I said, oh,
well, you know. there was a tarantula in
my bedroom, and you know, and I kind of gave
you a long list of dramas of everything that
happened in my holiday, you'd be far more
interested in that. So, you know, I think
when people always say to me, oh, it's all
so negative. And I think to myself, well,
yeah, we write what people want to read,
you know, if everyone just wanted some kind
of anodyne cheerful view of the world, you
know, a lot of articles wouldn't be written.
I mean, there is obviously a lot of articles
that give practical advice and support people
want to read those. But in terms of, and
also, you know, the reality is lots of bad
things go on in the world. So you know, if
you want to keep up to date the news, unfortunately,
People do bad things. That's the other thing.
I mean, we don't make up the bad things that
people do. They're going away doing them.
This is not journalists coming up with them.
If people do bad things, then we're just
covering the news. So I don't know whether
I've busted a few myths there, but flying
the flag for journalists, especially in this
age of misinformation that we've got, I actually
think that following trusted journalists
who've really done their research and think
about the issues quite deeply, that's quite
a useful thing.
Finally, Sally, please advise our listeners
where they may find your book 21st Century
Business Icons.
Well, you can get it in different places.
It's available directly from the publisher's
website. So it's published by Kogan Page
and their website is www.koganpage.com. It's
also available on Amazon for people who are
able to access Amazon. And actually, it's
been seen on sale in various airports around
the world. I've been very lucky and I've
had friends send me pictures they've seen
it in South Africa and Singapore and places
like that, which has given me a lot of pleasure
seeing Dubai as well, seeing photos of my
books in airports around the world. So it's
available in lots of different places. And
I think from Copenhagen, you can even get
a electronic version as well. So, yes, if
you're interested, please do go and read
it.
Ms. Sally Percy, thank you very much for
being a guest on this podcast.
Thank you. It's been a great pleasure. Thank
you for having me.
This podcast was brought to you by The Kamugasa
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The second episode in our leadership series
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