WEBVTT 00:00.555 --> 00:04.136 Hello, welcome back to Conversations with 00:04.236 --> 00:07.856 Stephen Kamugasa. This is the first episode 00:08.036 --> 00:12.297 in our 2025 Leadership Series. Today's guest 00:12.797 --> 00:16.078 is Ms. Sally Percy, an experienced business 00:16.118 --> 00:19.378 journalist and editor who specializes in 00:19.458 --> 00:21.979 writing about leadership and management. 00:23.219 --> 00:27.479 Sally is the author of three books, The Disruptors, 00:28.820 --> 00:31.972 21st Century Business Icons, and reached 00:32.012 --> 00:36.414 the top in finance. She has also edited several 00:36.454 --> 00:40.875 business magazines, including Edge, the official 00:40.915 --> 00:43.936 journal of the Institute of Leadership in 00:43.956 --> 00:49.077 the UK. Sally has a degree in modern history 00:49.397 --> 00:53.539 from the University of Oxford. In this episode, 00:54.259 --> 00:57.200 we discuss the topic, why great leadership 00:57.260 --> 01:00.521 will make you question everything. Ms. Sally 01:00.561 --> 01:02.090 Percy, Welcome. 01:02.871 --> 01:04.512 Thank you. Thank you for having me. 01:05.652 --> 01:10.175 Your book, 21st Century Business Icons, is 01:10.215 --> 01:14.197 both powerful and timely. Local and international 01:14.437 --> 01:17.339 businesses frequently have more clout and 01:17.419 --> 01:20.841 influence than any other social, political 01:21.522 --> 01:24.023 or economic body in today's tightly knit 01:24.203 --> 01:28.906 global society. Investment in global communication 01:29.086 --> 01:32.778 networks and technology will only strengthen 01:32.798 --> 01:36.081 the global connectivity of individuals, financial 01:36.101 --> 01:40.144 markets, and organizations as the 21st century 01:40.204 --> 01:44.268 plays itself out before our own eyes. This 01:44.408 --> 01:47.310 reality raises several questions, some of 01:47.370 --> 01:49.752 which we will attempt to address in this 01:49.872 --> 01:54.596 episode, such as what functions should business 01:55.057 --> 01:58.600 have in the 21st century? Are businesses 01:58.720 --> 02:02.272 the only economic actors? What obligations 02:02.392 --> 02:05.613 come along with businesses increasing might 02:05.933 --> 02:09.594 and sway? Is the only goal in business to 02:09.654 --> 02:13.555 increase wealth? Or are there also noble 02:14.196 --> 02:16.536 and social goals that need to be taken into 02:16.596 --> 02:19.957 account? But first, Sally, can you please 02:19.997 --> 02:23.578 tell us something about your childhood? And 02:23.658 --> 02:26.059 how did your childhood experience color your 02:26.179 --> 02:29.500 appreciation of business leadership as an 02:29.580 --> 02:32.504 adult? to be able to write a powerful book 02:32.605 --> 02:33.128 such as this. 02:34.557 --> 02:37.099 Oh, well, thank you. That's a really interesting 02:37.119 --> 02:39.441 question. And I've actually never been asked 02:39.641 --> 02:43.504 about my childhood before. But one of the 02:43.544 --> 02:45.265 things I would say is, obviously, you mentioned 02:45.305 --> 02:48.188 that I have a degree in history from the 02:48.268 --> 02:50.769 University of Oxford. And I was really quite 02:50.830 --> 02:54.112 young when I decided that I wanted to go 02:54.132 --> 02:56.354 to Oxford. When I set my sights on going, 02:56.454 --> 02:58.535 I was actually only about 10 at the time, 02:58.595 --> 03:01.037 which I think was quite a young age. And 03:01.517 --> 03:03.939 I was really, all through my teenage years, 03:03.999 --> 03:06.060 this was my ambition and this is what I really 03:06.100 --> 03:08.781 focused on. And I really enjoyed studying 03:08.861 --> 03:11.462 history at school. And that was my favorite 03:11.502 --> 03:15.044 subject when I was a teenager. And obviously, 03:15.184 --> 03:17.525 I then went on to study at university. And 03:17.586 --> 03:19.446 I think the thing about history is you're 03:19.486 --> 03:22.248 actually studying, well, you study lots of 03:22.268 --> 03:23.569 different things in history, but it's a lot 03:23.609 --> 03:26.330 about people. It's a lot about leadership. 03:27.239 --> 03:30.683 UK history is about kings and queens in there 03:30.763 --> 03:32.946 and prime ministers and things like that. 03:33.026 --> 03:36.510 So I think that kind of love of history and 03:36.910 --> 03:39.994 reading stories and learning about influential 03:40.014 --> 03:41.756 people, people who made a difference in the 03:41.816 --> 03:44.840 world, I think that, and actually, you know, 03:45.380 --> 03:47.382 some of those people kind of shaped the world 03:47.442 --> 03:49.563 that we actually now live in today, although 03:49.844 --> 03:51.305 we don't necessarily think of it in that 03:51.345 --> 03:55.128 way. So I think, I think those kind of experiences 03:55.208 --> 03:58.491 really, as a teenager and as a young student 03:58.531 --> 04:00.942 of Oxford, I think, If I think about them 04:00.962 --> 04:03.403 now, I think they probably did perhaps contribute 04:03.423 --> 04:05.403 to me sort of going on to write a book about 04:05.463 --> 04:07.783 leadership, because I really like diving 04:07.843 --> 04:10.724 into people's pasts and seeing what motivates 04:10.804 --> 04:13.124 them. And you'll know from reading the book 04:13.204 --> 04:16.205 is basically sort of a mini potted history 04:16.225 --> 04:17.585 of all these different people and what we 04:17.625 --> 04:20.265 can learn from them. So I think there's kind 04:20.285 --> 04:22.326 of really quite a strong correlation there 04:22.826 --> 04:23.866 with my history studies. 04:26.286 --> 04:31.459 On page 269 of your book, 21st century business 04:31.639 --> 04:34.360 icons. You draw the following conclusion, 04:34.480 --> 04:37.661 and I quote, the major question that naturally 04:37.801 --> 04:40.381 arises at the end of this book is surely 04:40.401 --> 04:44.142 the following. What do the 21st century business 04:44.322 --> 04:47.483 icons profiled here have in common with each 04:47.563 --> 04:50.744 other? Is there such a thing as a single 04:50.784 --> 04:55.225 blueprint for success? Now, I know we are 04:55.285 --> 04:57.964 starting at the back end of the book, But 04:58.024 --> 05:00.365 I have a question that I'm sure our listeners 05:00.425 --> 05:02.826 would like to know, and it is as follows. 05:03.966 --> 05:06.367 How would you define a leader in business? 05:07.668 --> 05:10.049 And is there a single blueprint one can point 05:10.109 --> 05:13.450 to and say, that's what a business leader 05:13.610 --> 05:14.111 looks like? 05:15.371 --> 05:17.592 Yes, a couple of very interesting questions 05:17.652 --> 05:21.214 there. I would define a leader pretty much 05:21.294 --> 05:23.736 probably in any context, not just in business, 05:23.936 --> 05:28.078 as someone who directly or indirectly influences 05:28.658 --> 05:30.939 other people. So obviously, you know, someone 05:30.959 --> 05:33.620 who directly influences people might be their 05:33.641 --> 05:36.282 line manager, someone who indirectly influences 05:36.322 --> 05:38.103 people might be, you know, someone you follow 05:38.143 --> 05:40.744 on social media, and they bought a product 05:40.804 --> 05:42.565 and recommend it, and you think that's great. 05:42.625 --> 05:45.787 So it's about directly or indirectly influencing 05:45.827 --> 05:48.648 other people, and it's about influencing 05:48.668 --> 05:51.281 what they think and what they do, And it's 05:51.321 --> 05:54.663 also about motivating them to behave in a 05:54.723 --> 05:57.905 certain way and achieve certain goals. So 05:57.925 --> 06:00.046 motivation is a really important aspect of 06:00.087 --> 06:02.308 being a leader, to be a good leader. You've 06:02.328 --> 06:04.929 got to be able to motivate others. In terms 06:05.009 --> 06:07.151 of, is there a single blueprint to what a 06:07.211 --> 06:09.372 leader looks like? I mean, you would probably 06:09.392 --> 06:12.774 guess, for me, the answer to that, I would 06:12.794 --> 06:15.476 say no, there is no single blueprint. You 06:15.516 --> 06:19.238 can be a introvert, you can be an extrovert, 06:19.838 --> 06:23.806 you can you know, come from any kind of background 06:23.867 --> 06:25.528 really, you can have any sort of specialist 06:25.548 --> 06:28.130 technical knowledge. What I would say though 06:28.230 --> 06:30.852 is that there are some common threads that 06:30.892 --> 06:33.174 you see, and I've picked up in my book, that 06:33.194 --> 06:35.536 they do have a lot of attributes in common, 06:35.576 --> 06:39.059 sort of hard work, self-discipline, a strong 06:39.099 --> 06:41.341 sense of purpose, a long-term perspective. 06:42.216 --> 06:44.658 great vision. Something else that also comes 06:44.698 --> 06:46.861 very very strongly linking to what I said 06:46.941 --> 06:49.523 about motivating people is a willingness 06:49.563 --> 06:52.526 to empower other people and build strong 06:52.606 --> 06:55.727 teams. Something else that comes through 06:55.787 --> 06:58.208 is a willingness to listen and to take advice. 06:59.128 --> 07:02.289 Also, a willingness to fail and a willingness 07:02.389 --> 07:05.350 to take risks. I mean, in terms of my book, 07:05.430 --> 07:08.231 most of the leaders that I profile are entrepreneurs. 07:08.591 --> 07:11.192 And therefore, by definition, they're leaders 07:11.232 --> 07:13.653 of their business because they started and 07:13.713 --> 07:16.854 grew them. But I do feature a couple of leaders 07:17.174 --> 07:18.174 who are not entrepreneurs. 07:19.835 --> 07:21.976 Turning back to page seven of your book, 07:22.776 --> 07:26.153 entitled Leadership icons of today, you write, 07:26.273 --> 07:29.434 and I quote, in this section, you will read 07:29.614 --> 07:32.615 about some outstanding men and women drawn 07:32.675 --> 07:34.616 from different markets around the world, 07:35.317 --> 07:37.998 who each bring their own unique perspective 07:38.258 --> 07:42.139 to the practice of leadership. Sally, please 07:42.499 --> 07:45.861 talk us through how you went about selecting 07:45.921 --> 07:48.562 the leaders you write about. What was your 07:48.622 --> 07:49.422 key criteria? 07:51.260 --> 07:54.181 Well, the two principal criteria that I had 07:54.201 --> 07:56.522 to begin with is I wanted them to still be 07:56.562 --> 07:59.303 alive. So that ruled out Steve Jobs, for 07:59.343 --> 08:02.444 example. And I wanted people who had changed 08:02.484 --> 08:05.725 the world in some way. So if you try to imagine 08:05.805 --> 08:08.046 our world today without that person in there, 08:08.646 --> 08:11.127 what would it look like? And, you know, kind 08:11.147 --> 08:12.808 of, so I really was looking for people who 08:12.868 --> 08:18.026 had changed the world. And so I suppose, 08:18.066 --> 08:21.089 you know, an obvious example here would be, 08:21.369 --> 08:22.771 you know, trying to imagine the world without 08:22.811 --> 08:24.673 Facebook, for example, you know, it's quite 08:24.693 --> 08:27.315 hard, you know, so many people on Facebook, 08:27.335 --> 08:29.598 but if you're not really anymore, we Facebook's 08:29.638 --> 08:32.060 really kind of been a pioneer in the social 08:32.100 --> 08:34.643 media space, and has led on to other things. 08:34.703 --> 08:36.485 And obviously, Facebook now own WhatsApp, 08:37.005 --> 08:40.557 and Instagram. So of Meta, the parent company. 08:40.577 --> 08:44.100 So, you know, it was quite, you know, Facebook 08:44.160 --> 08:46.662 really did change the world. Amazon, you 08:46.682 --> 08:49.284 know, I mean, I order things on Amazon virtually 08:49.304 --> 08:52.347 every week, really. So, to now, to try and 08:52.387 --> 08:54.829 imagine a world without Amazon in it, I mean, 08:54.869 --> 08:58.372 that would be, for me personally, quite inconvenient. 08:59.032 --> 09:00.874 And then you look at, you know, you look 09:00.914 --> 09:02.675 at a world without Elon Musk in it, I mean, 09:02.715 --> 09:05.766 regardless you know, your personal views 09:05.906 --> 09:07.867 on him, you know, he's really had a very 09:07.947 --> 09:10.867 big impact on the world. So when I was kind 09:10.907 --> 09:12.688 of looking for people, I really was looking 09:12.768 --> 09:14.708 for people who changed the world in some 09:14.768 --> 09:17.648 way. After that, I was really looking for 09:17.788 --> 09:20.509 diversity of genders and nationalities and 09:20.529 --> 09:22.569 sectors, just to make sure that the stories 09:22.609 --> 09:24.850 were sufficiently varied and interesting, 09:24.870 --> 09:27.210 because if every single case study was about 09:27.230 --> 09:29.391 a man in the tech sector in the US, that 09:29.811 --> 09:32.092 would get a bit dull after a while. Something 09:32.132 --> 09:33.533 else that was also really important was this 09:33.553 --> 09:35.535 was a book on leadership, so I was really 09:35.575 --> 09:37.436 looking for people who had good advice on 09:37.496 --> 09:40.319 leadership and who had shared their tips 09:40.419 --> 09:42.440 and their philosophies on leadership, either 09:42.480 --> 09:44.782 because they'd written a book or they'd been 09:44.842 --> 09:47.904 interviewed or they might have written blogs 09:47.964 --> 09:49.966 and articles, you know. I wanted to be able 09:49.986 --> 09:52.928 to really unpick how they thought of themselves 09:52.988 --> 09:55.590 as a leader and what kind of philosophies 09:55.630 --> 09:57.492 they had, so that was really important. I 09:57.532 --> 10:00.229 needed to be able to see what they thought 10:00.289 --> 10:02.350 of as their leadership style. So those are 10:02.370 --> 10:03.511 the different kinds of things I was looking 10:03.551 --> 10:03.731 for. 10:05.131 --> 10:07.913 You write on page 12 of your book the following, 10:08.033 --> 10:11.915 and I quote, she said that GM must embrace 10:12.075 --> 10:15.316 a culture where safety and quality come first 10:16.197 --> 10:18.718 and code for the company's employees to raise 10:18.838 --> 10:22.040 concerns quickly and forcefully. In doing 10:22.120 --> 10:25.601 so, she effectively ushered in an era of 10:25.781 --> 10:28.332 massive culture change for General Motors, 10:29.153 --> 10:32.474 moving it away from a culture that was associated 10:32.534 --> 10:35.575 with cutting costs and ignoring problems 10:36.135 --> 10:39.796 to one that prized accountability, collaboration, 10:40.736 --> 10:44.017 and honesty, while prioritizing customers 10:44.498 --> 10:48.419 and their safety. Now, Peter Drucker, the 10:48.479 --> 10:51.620 management consultant, educator, and author, 10:52.480 --> 10:54.581 is famous for having come up with the phrase, 10:55.472 --> 11:00.956 Culture eats strategy for breakfast. Given 11:01.376 --> 11:05.139 Mary Barra's work at GM, could you kindly 11:05.159 --> 11:08.261 discuss with us what you believe to be the 11:08.321 --> 11:11.964 genuine definition of culture and what special 11:12.144 --> 11:15.266 attribute do you believe Mary Barra possessed 11:15.686 --> 11:18.268 to have initiated this significant change 11:18.749 --> 11:19.249 at GM? 11:21.459 --> 11:24.062 Well, personally, I would define culture 11:24.082 --> 11:28.125 as the way that a group of people might think 11:28.406 --> 11:32.269 and act. So an organization, and it's about 11:32.330 --> 11:35.713 shared values as well, really. So organizational 11:35.773 --> 11:38.335 culture, you know, you would expect the people 11:38.375 --> 11:40.958 who work for that organization to probably 11:40.998 --> 11:45.442 share a set of common values. And if they're 11:45.502 --> 11:48.695 faced with a challenge that you would expect 11:48.735 --> 11:51.536 them to understand and to know how to respond 11:51.576 --> 11:53.917 in a certain way. And cultures are often 11:53.957 --> 11:56.717 also obviously set at the top. So you really 11:56.757 --> 11:58.698 expect the top, the leaders at the top of 11:58.738 --> 12:01.438 the organization to be setting the tone when 12:01.478 --> 12:04.539 it comes to culture and to be modeling, really, 12:04.559 --> 12:06.579 the little values that they expect everyone 12:06.639 --> 12:09.420 else to embrace. So that's what I would say 12:09.460 --> 12:11.640 about culture. I mean, one of the things 12:11.740 --> 12:15.641 about Mary Barra, quite distinctive is she 12:15.701 --> 12:18.302 embraces the concept of servant leadership. 12:19.343 --> 12:22.224 So that's a philosophy where leaders see 12:22.264 --> 12:24.425 it as their goal as being to serve their 12:24.465 --> 12:27.547 people and prioritise their growth, well-being 12:27.587 --> 12:30.549 and empowerment. So it's not really about 12:30.629 --> 12:34.191 this sort of authoritarian top-down leadership 12:34.731 --> 12:37.312 that can be quite prevalent in organisations. 12:37.372 --> 12:41.139 This is what I say you kind of do it. Servant 12:41.159 --> 12:44.202 leadership really is kind of seeing yourself 12:44.262 --> 12:48.004 as an enabler of other people. And it is 12:48.044 --> 12:50.126 about ultimately being a role model as well, 12:50.166 --> 12:53.669 but it's really about sort of finding ways 12:53.709 --> 12:56.511 to bring out the best in your people, you 12:56.751 --> 13:00.654 know, really empowering them to, you know, 13:00.694 --> 13:02.655 bring out the good things and to, you know, 13:02.695 --> 13:05.857 focus on acting on the good values that you 13:05.877 --> 13:08.883 want to promote. So, I mean, I think if you 13:08.943 --> 13:11.485 have that philosophy that you're there to 13:11.545 --> 13:14.387 serve others, it really helps to bring out 13:14.407 --> 13:17.288 a positive culture change and to people believe 13:17.308 --> 13:19.570 you're not doing what you're doing purely 13:19.610 --> 13:21.571 to serve yourself, but to bring about the 13:21.611 --> 13:24.593 greater good. So in the case of Mary Barra's 13:24.833 --> 13:29.376 case, she was obviously trying to improve 13:29.816 --> 13:32.658 safety, the safety culture of General Motors. 13:33.191 --> 13:35.993 So people really needed to believe that, 13:36.213 --> 13:38.414 you know, she was genuine and sincere about 13:38.454 --> 13:40.976 that, which I think came over very strongly. 13:41.857 --> 13:45.019 But also it's kind of, you know, it's not 13:45.059 --> 13:47.500 a sort of pointing fingers kind of, you've 13:47.540 --> 13:50.462 got this wrong, you know, that authoritarian 13:50.502 --> 13:53.084 sort of approach. It's more kind of, how 13:53.124 --> 13:55.705 can we all work together to improve the safety 13:55.745 --> 13:58.047 culture of this organization? So I think 13:58.087 --> 14:01.209 that's the way that she went around doing 14:01.269 --> 14:04.968 it. And now I think, it ultimately always 14:05.028 --> 14:07.031 going to be more effective at influencing 14:07.071 --> 14:10.835 other people. If, if those people believe 14:10.875 --> 14:13.338 that you are sort of acting in a way, you 14:14.620 --> 14:16.222 know, that you're kind of trying to further 14:16.242 --> 14:18.625 the greater good of the world and not really 14:18.905 --> 14:22.452 just furthering your your own agenda. And 14:22.492 --> 14:24.952 I think that's really important, sort of, 14:24.973 --> 14:27.974 in any leadership capacity, really, to always, 14:28.034 --> 14:31.235 like, have that sort of bigger picture, because, 14:31.455 --> 14:33.516 you know, whenever, we're all mortal, so, 14:33.976 --> 14:36.557 you know, we're all here on Earth for a short 14:36.597 --> 14:39.178 amount of time, and we only have so much, 14:40.038 --> 14:41.759 so much time to make a difference in our 14:41.799 --> 14:43.919 lives. So, you know, it's kind of really 14:43.979 --> 14:45.880 important, I think, for each and every one 14:45.900 --> 14:48.021 of us just to be thinking about how we can 14:48.081 --> 14:51.449 always make that bigger impact and not just 14:51.769 --> 14:54.611 thinking about ourselves on a day-to-day 14:54.651 --> 14:56.593 basis or our immediate teams on a day-to-day 14:56.613 --> 14:59.815 basis. How are we helping to change the world 14:59.855 --> 15:03.037 in the way some of these leaders I mentioned 15:03.077 --> 15:05.119 in the book are trying to change the world? 15:05.159 --> 15:07.080 Because actually, we do all have it in our 15:07.100 --> 15:11.324 power to help change the world, even if it's 15:11.384 --> 15:12.344 in very small ways. 15:13.705 --> 15:18.449 In Chapter 3 of 21st Century Business Icons, 15:19.380 --> 15:23.543 You write on page 38 thus, and I quote, Brewer 15:23.583 --> 15:26.564 herself studied chemistry at the private 15:26.624 --> 15:30.567 Spelman College in Atlanta, a liberal arts 15:30.867 --> 15:33.809 and science college that focuses on educating 15:33.889 --> 15:37.911 women of African descent. Her time at Spelman 15:38.412 --> 15:40.973 was a defining experience for her because 15:41.113 --> 15:44.435 it enabled her to hone her critical thinking 15:44.516 --> 15:48.282 skills. It also put her in an environment 15:48.582 --> 15:51.524 of, in her own words, women who look like 15:51.604 --> 15:54.787 me, but come from different walks of life. 15:55.947 --> 15:58.930 Tragically, her father died of cancer when 15:58.990 --> 16:02.472 she was in her last year of college, six 16:02.552 --> 16:07.716 weeks before graduation. Sally, please talk 16:07.756 --> 16:11.439 to us about why Rosalind Brewer's comments 16:12.019 --> 16:14.881 at an interview with news channel CNN were 16:14.921 --> 16:18.544 so controversial. How does Brewer deal with 16:18.644 --> 16:21.066 racism? Give us an example. 16:22.908 --> 16:26.130 I found Rosalind Brewer a really interesting 16:26.250 --> 16:28.592 person to profile for the book and she was 16:28.692 --> 16:31.074 just one of only two people, along with Mary 16:31.114 --> 16:34.557 Barra I think, who wasn't actually an entrepreneur 16:34.597 --> 16:36.378 who sort of founded the business that she 16:36.438 --> 16:39.859 led. And actually, one of the sad things 16:39.979 --> 16:42.680 was that she actually stood down as CEO of 16:42.700 --> 16:45.581 Walgreens Boots Alliance a couple of days 16:45.621 --> 16:48.722 before my book was published, which I thought 16:48.902 --> 16:52.523 was a shame because she's such a good role 16:52.563 --> 16:55.244 model and what she did, she was so extraordinary. 16:55.264 --> 16:57.865 I mean, in terms of, you know, she's one 16:57.885 --> 17:01.687 of very few black women to lead a really 17:01.727 --> 17:06.857 large US company. And she had, No, she hadn't 17:07.037 --> 17:10.099 had an easy run of it in life. She was born 17:10.119 --> 17:12.201 to two parents who worked in the automotive 17:12.261 --> 17:13.882 industry and didn't finish high school, but 17:13.902 --> 17:16.584 they did really value education. She got 17:16.644 --> 17:20.767 to the top by working incredibly hard. She 17:20.807 --> 17:23.169 said in interviews about doing jobs that 17:23.209 --> 17:26.475 other people didn't want to do. So she put 17:26.515 --> 17:29.896 a lot of hard graft in it. And she's a real 17:29.976 --> 17:34.457 champion of diversity. And she tries to teach 17:34.517 --> 17:37.478 and train other people on diversity. Now, 17:37.498 --> 17:40.839 in terms of her sort of CNN appearance, she 17:40.859 --> 17:42.860 was actually being interviewed at the time 17:43.480 --> 17:46.801 about how she promoted workforce diversity 17:46.961 --> 17:48.801 within her business. So effectively, she 17:48.841 --> 17:51.502 was being put on the spot and asked to comment 17:51.922 --> 17:54.523 about diversity. It wasn't something that 17:54.623 --> 17:58.284 she had was necessarily kind of launching 17:58.344 --> 18:00.426 forth in a dedicated article or something, 18:00.546 --> 18:03.247 you know, she was kind of being interviewed 18:03.287 --> 18:05.748 at the time on this particular subject. And 18:05.808 --> 18:09.070 she just gave the example of attending a 18:09.090 --> 18:11.031 meeting with suppliers where the other side 18:11.051 --> 18:15.173 of the table were all Caucasian males. And 18:15.453 --> 18:17.274 I think she was just trying to say, well, 18:17.394 --> 18:19.396 you know, that probably isn't really very 18:19.476 --> 18:21.497 reflective of the workforce anymore. So, 18:22.037 --> 18:24.058 you know, why are these situations occurring? 18:24.927 --> 18:26.648 and she thought the comments were fairly 18:27.128 --> 18:29.770 innocuous because I mean you know for quite 18:29.790 --> 18:33.272 a few years obviously there's been you know 18:33.412 --> 18:36.893 big push for greater diversity within the 18:36.933 --> 18:39.475 workforce at all levels so she didn't necessarily 18:39.495 --> 18:40.896 think that was particularly controversial 18:42.136 --> 18:45.198 but she was criticized on right-wing websites 18:45.218 --> 18:47.359 for discriminating against men and actually 18:47.379 --> 18:49.760 she did receive death threats as a result 18:49.820 --> 18:53.025 of what she said so It was quite scary, obviously, 18:53.125 --> 18:56.027 for her. She had put herself out there in 18:56.067 --> 18:57.408 the end with those comments, even though 18:57.428 --> 18:59.510 she didn't necessarily think they were that 18:59.590 --> 19:04.114 controversial. So, I mean, I think primarily 19:04.194 --> 19:07.437 she deals with racism by virtue of being 19:07.818 --> 19:09.940 an inspiring role model. You know, there's 19:10.020 --> 19:14.877 a say in fiction writing about you know, 19:15.057 --> 19:17.578 telling, sorry, showing, not telling. And, 19:17.778 --> 19:19.259 you know, I think she's obviously a very 19:19.279 --> 19:20.960 good example of that. She, you know, she's 19:21.000 --> 19:23.501 shown what can be done. And, and in that 19:23.521 --> 19:25.481 respect, she's paving the way for other women. 19:25.621 --> 19:27.542 And when she was chief operating officer 19:27.562 --> 19:31.063 of Starbucks, there was a very famous case 19:31.324 --> 19:34.045 that was in the news. And after two young 19:34.225 --> 19:36.946 black men were arrested on suspicion of trespassing, 19:37.406 --> 19:39.447 and I think it's because they were sitting 19:39.487 --> 19:40.747 in the cafe waiting for someone and they 19:40.767 --> 19:43.708 hadn't ordered a drink. And The manager had 19:43.728 --> 19:45.949 called the police and actually they hadn't 19:46.050 --> 19:47.811 done anything wrong. They were just sitting 19:47.851 --> 19:50.313 waiting for their contact to arrive. And 19:50.713 --> 19:52.415 that caused a lot of controversy at the time 19:52.435 --> 19:55.477 to Starbucks. And after that event, she did 19:55.537 --> 19:59.600 sort of, I think, review kind of the culture 19:59.620 --> 20:01.602 of the organization. And she helped to ensure 20:01.642 --> 20:04.104 that staff were given racial bias training. 20:04.144 --> 20:07.767 So she's been a proactive person in sort 20:07.787 --> 20:11.350 of trying to help address racism within business. 20:13.024 --> 20:16.586 In chapter 14 of 21st Century Business Icons, 20:17.446 --> 20:21.809 we write on page 186 thus, and I quote, they 20:21.829 --> 20:24.971 were never in it for the money. But today, 20:25.291 --> 20:29.493 Sahin and Tureci are billionaires. Their 20:29.593 --> 20:33.595 company, BioNTech, was valued at $35 billion 20:33.855 --> 21:33.131 as of January 2023, and by the end of 2021, 20:39.306 --> 20:42.947 It employed nearly 3,100 full-time employees. 20:44.368 --> 20:48.809 Sahin remains CEO of the company. Tureci 20:49.369 --> 20:53.891 is its chief medical officer. Tureci is also 20:54.031 --> 20:56.772 president of the German-based Association 20:56.812 --> 21:01.673 of Cancer Immunotherapy. In 2021, the pair 21:01.833 --> 21:04.514 of scientists received German's Order of 21:04.594 --> 21:07.725 Merit for their achievements in developing 21:07.745 --> 21:10.846 a COVID-19 vaccine, one of the country's 21:10.986 --> 21:15.227 highest honours. In a fast-changing world 21:15.407 --> 21:19.488 of identity politics, are immigrants an asset 21:20.248 --> 21:24.369 or a liability? And how can we educate ordinary 21:24.409 --> 21:27.890 citizens that a coat of many colors is actually 21:27.970 --> 21:31.071 a good thing for business, the arts, and 21:31.131 --> 21:33.131 many other aspects of our society? 21:35.265 --> 21:37.927 Well, this is a very interesting question. 21:37.947 --> 21:40.610 The question of immigration is obviously 21:41.531 --> 21:45.074 extremely topical due to the controversies 21:45.134 --> 21:47.416 in many markets. I mean, I would say on the 21:47.456 --> 21:50.259 topic of are immigrants an asset or a liability? 21:50.279 --> 21:53.962 I mean, the answer to that is quite nuanced, 21:54.002 --> 21:55.784 really. It's not a black and white question 21:55.824 --> 21:57.726 because, you know, that's with so many things 21:57.786 --> 22:01.584 in life. The answer is probably both. So, 22:01.925 --> 22:04.586 you know, you look at, I mean, there's no 22:04.626 --> 22:07.747 doubt that immigrants can make massive economic 22:07.847 --> 22:09.548 contributions to companies. I mean, one of 22:09.588 --> 22:11.829 the, and you mentioned the BioNTech founders 22:11.849 --> 22:14.371 there, obviously they've done amazing things, 22:14.431 --> 22:16.732 not just economically, but contributed to 22:16.772 --> 22:19.933 world health. But Elon Musk, you know, the 22:19.973 --> 22:22.254 world's richest man, he's actually an immigrant 22:22.314 --> 22:26.436 to the US and, you know, he's quite influential 22:26.456 --> 22:30.861 in their economy. You can see the huge contribution 22:30.901 --> 22:34.323 that immigrants can make. On the other hand, 22:34.343 --> 22:36.324 and this is something that academics write 22:36.364 --> 22:38.705 about and they're far more knowledgeable 22:38.725 --> 22:42.847 than me, but immigration, if you have widespread 22:42.868 --> 22:45.769 immigration, it can hold down wages and therefore 22:46.009 --> 22:49.455 impact on living standards. And, you know, 22:49.495 --> 22:52.036 there can be kind of other detrimental effects 22:52.096 --> 22:54.798 as well of large scale immigration, especially 22:54.818 --> 22:56.799 if you haven't got your cultural integration 22:56.839 --> 22:58.600 and, you know, that's not being managed effectively. 22:59.200 --> 23:02.942 So I think, you know, kind of with immigration, 23:03.483 --> 23:06.384 it's kind of, it can be a very good thing 23:06.805 --> 23:08.566 as long as it's managed well. One thing I 23:08.606 --> 23:10.887 do find in my work too is, you know, there's 23:10.907 --> 23:14.669 a flip side of it. So in my market, people 23:14.829 --> 23:18.044 tend to talk about immigration. when I interview, 23:18.064 --> 23:19.565 because I interview leaders from all around 23:19.585 --> 23:22.386 the world, and some of them talk a lot about 23:22.626 --> 23:25.568 the problem of emigration, that basically, 23:25.648 --> 23:27.189 you know, it can happen, for example, in 23:27.209 --> 23:29.431 the finance profession, as people get trained 23:29.571 --> 23:32.512 up, they become very skilled as finance professionals, 23:33.493 --> 23:35.915 they might have a global qualification, and 23:35.955 --> 23:39.036 therefore, they then move to other markets. 23:39.116 --> 23:41.478 So what that then happens is their home market 23:41.518 --> 23:44.860 is constantly battling against a talent brain 23:44.880 --> 23:49.466 drain, really. I think, you know, my conclusion 23:49.486 --> 23:51.987 as a result of all this on the subject of 23:52.227 --> 23:54.909 migration, and this is, you know, my personal 23:54.949 --> 24:00.111 view is that I wonder if it does contribute 24:00.171 --> 24:04.413 to inequality really, you know, both a global 24:04.453 --> 24:08.960 level and a local level. And really, I actually 24:08.980 --> 24:10.723 think what we really need to be doing is 24:10.963 --> 24:14.067 really kind of making sure that whoever we've 24:14.147 --> 24:16.691 actually got in our society, that we're drawing 24:16.891 --> 24:20.578 on all of their talents. and making sure 24:20.638 --> 24:22.278 that, yes, I mean, people from different 24:22.318 --> 24:24.079 backgrounds, people from different genders, 24:24.479 --> 24:26.300 you know, social economic groups who may 24:26.320 --> 24:28.721 be being left behind, but actually what we're 24:28.741 --> 24:31.342 really trying to do is, you know, really 24:31.382 --> 24:33.963 kind of bring everyone together because I 24:34.003 --> 24:36.084 think one of my concerns at the moment is 24:36.324 --> 24:39.065 I feel that the gap, and I certainly see 24:39.085 --> 24:42.046 this in my own country, is I feel the gap 24:42.106 --> 24:44.787 is just becoming wider and wider between 24:44.827 --> 24:48.514 the haves and the have-nots. And I think 24:48.534 --> 24:52.956 that's a shame in a world where, you know, 24:53.176 --> 24:56.737 actually in many respects, things are getting 24:56.777 --> 24:59.337 so advanced and, you know, there's incredible 24:59.377 --> 25:00.978 things we can do in medicine, you know, we 25:00.998 --> 25:02.878 can fly around the world, we can go to the 25:02.958 --> 25:04.759 moon, you know, we can do amazing things. 25:05.239 --> 25:06.599 And yet there are countries in the world 25:06.619 --> 25:09.260 where large proportions of population don't 25:09.560 --> 25:11.261 even have access to electricity and can't 25:11.281 --> 25:14.582 switch on their lights. You know, so I think, 25:15.162 --> 25:18.754 you know, I don't know, to me, it just does 25:18.774 --> 25:22.135 seem a very sort of unequal world. And I 25:22.195 --> 25:23.875 actually personally think that's kind of 25:24.316 --> 25:27.297 one of the greatest sort of challenges that 25:27.317 --> 25:31.398 we face today. And, and kind of actually, 25:31.418 --> 25:34.379 you know, as leaders, something I think everyone 25:34.419 --> 25:36.860 could be thinking about really is how can 25:36.920 --> 25:39.621 they, you know, draw on some of the diverse 25:39.681 --> 25:43.470 talents in their communities to kind of you 25:43.510 --> 25:45.611 know, obviously enhances the business by 25:45.651 --> 25:47.412 bringing all these kind of different perspectives. 25:48.192 --> 25:50.293 And at the same time, it has the benefit, 25:50.393 --> 25:52.454 actually, of, you know, having a positive 25:52.474 --> 25:53.715 social impact. And one of the things you 25:53.735 --> 25:55.875 talked about at the start, I think, is, you 25:55.915 --> 25:57.816 know, can businesses have a nobler role? 25:57.876 --> 26:00.337 It's not just about making money. And, you 26:00.377 --> 26:02.678 know, when you see some of the politics that's 26:02.718 --> 26:04.619 gone on today, some of the kind of fracturing 26:04.659 --> 26:07.180 that's going on today, I think, you know, 26:07.280 --> 26:09.782 thinking about, you know, how can we kind 26:09.842 --> 26:12.263 of bring everyone together on this journey, 26:12.403 --> 26:15.048 not just you know, maybe a sort of fairly 26:15.068 --> 26:16.989 elite group of very highly educated people, 26:17.029 --> 26:18.450 but how can we sort of bring everybody with 26:18.490 --> 26:20.792 us? You know, I actually think that is one 26:20.812 --> 26:23.734 of the most important questions facing leaders 26:23.754 --> 26:27.916 today in politics and in business. So those 26:27.976 --> 26:30.138 are my thoughts on the subject. 26:34.301 --> 26:37.923 The title of our podcast is Why Great Leadership 26:37.963 --> 26:41.205 Will Make You Question Everything. Professor 26:41.225 --> 26:44.508 Shoshana Zuboff, Talking about her recent 26:44.548 --> 26:46.929 book, The Age of Surveillance Capitalism, 26:47.629 --> 26:51.191 The Fight for a Human Future at the New Frontier 26:51.331 --> 26:53.711 of Power, said the following, and I quote, 26:54.672 --> 26:57.573 surveillance capitalism is the story of the 26:57.633 --> 27:00.994 digital revolution and how the early utopian 27:01.054 --> 27:04.895 prospects of the web darkened into a rogue 27:05.015 --> 27:08.356 mutation of capitalism marked by concentrations 27:08.416 --> 27:12.744 of wealth, knowledge, and power unprecedented 27:12.924 --> 27:17.886 in human history. Now, Gmail was launched 27:18.026 --> 27:22.507 in 2004. Google subsequently admitted that 27:22.647 --> 27:25.648 it has scanned private correspondence for 27:25.708 --> 27:29.890 personal information. In the same year, Facebook 27:29.930 --> 27:33.431 was founded. Its business model also based 27:33.591 --> 27:37.252 on the capture of and access to personal 27:37.352 --> 27:41.722 information The metaphor Zuboff uses is one 27:41.762 --> 27:45.764 of conquest. With so little left to be, that 27:45.824 --> 27:49.506 could be commodified, the last virgin territory 27:50.006 --> 28:23.212 was private human experience. In 1986, 1% 27:54.928 --> 27:57.129 of the world's information was digitized. 27:58.090 --> 27:59.130 In 2013, it was 98%. Sally, in light of our 27:59.891 --> 28:07.808 podcast theme, What are the consequences 28:07.948 --> 28:11.549 of this new economic world order for democracy 28:11.769 --> 28:15.610 and freedom? And how should we interpret 28:15.690 --> 28:20.071 the worth of human rights in an age of giving 28:20.212 --> 28:23.212 up our privacy for the sake of convenience? 28:25.673 --> 28:28.834 Well, I mean, this is a very big topic. It's 28:28.954 --> 28:34.634 a very complex topic. I think that you are 28:34.734 --> 28:36.855 right in the sense that actually, you know, 28:36.875 --> 28:38.136 we've seen that with some of the big tech 28:38.176 --> 28:40.297 companies that actually, you know, there 28:40.377 --> 28:43.198 is a great deal of wealth concentrated in 28:43.238 --> 28:46.759 comparatively few companies, some of which 28:47.100 --> 28:49.621 deal very heavily in personal information. 28:50.661 --> 28:57.484 So I think that is true. I think that actually 28:57.504 --> 29:01.964 in terms of digitalization, yes, on the one 29:02.024 --> 29:04.945 hand, you know, it can impact on your privacy. 29:04.985 --> 29:08.146 And I think in, you know, all of us as individuals 29:08.226 --> 29:11.287 do have a responsibility to try and protect 29:12.127 --> 29:14.568 our privacy actually online. And sometimes 29:14.608 --> 29:17.389 it surprises me how much people do give away 29:17.409 --> 29:19.670 about themselves, how they how much they 29:19.710 --> 29:24.818 choose to, you know, kind of invade their 29:24.858 --> 29:27.900 own privacy, technically. So I think, yes, 29:27.940 --> 29:29.681 we can't always control necessarily what 29:29.701 --> 29:31.421 big tech companies are doing. Obviously, 29:31.461 --> 29:33.922 there have been a lot more data regulations 29:33.983 --> 29:37.124 coming in, including the GDPR in Europe, 29:37.204 --> 29:39.105 which is obviously intended, these things 29:39.145 --> 29:43.507 are intended to protect us. So I think there 29:43.567 --> 29:46.048 are protections there. I think we can protect 29:46.108 --> 29:51.272 ourselves. But at the same time, while I 29:51.312 --> 29:54.374 think technology can be a threat to democracy 29:54.515 --> 29:57.957 if it's kind of used in the wrong way. At 29:57.977 --> 30:00.960 the same time, it provides a lot of democracy. 30:00.980 --> 30:05.123 I mean, people can go online and message, 30:05.263 --> 30:07.665 if they want to, some of the most powerful 30:07.725 --> 30:10.007 people in the world or respond to their tweets 30:10.067 --> 30:13.489 or whatever it is. Or people can complain 30:13.549 --> 30:15.711 about something they're not very happy with 30:15.751 --> 30:17.292 online, and then they actually might get 30:17.332 --> 30:19.214 a response when they haven't had any response 30:19.254 --> 30:23.173 on the customer services team. No, so I think 30:23.333 --> 30:27.474 actually, you know, it's a bit, just like, 30:27.695 --> 30:29.055 you know, my response to the immigration 30:29.075 --> 30:31.235 question, I suppose, you know, yes, technology 30:31.275 --> 30:33.176 is kind of, yes, it's a good thing, and yes, 30:33.236 --> 30:36.137 it's a bad thing. It's kind of both those 30:36.197 --> 30:38.938 things, really. I mean, it depends, you know, 30:38.958 --> 30:40.958 on the kind of way you look at it, really. 30:40.978 --> 30:45.119 I mean, I, on the topic of personal information, 30:45.379 --> 30:47.060 I don't stress about, I mean, I worry about 30:47.080 --> 30:48.820 my bank details going to people I don't want 30:48.840 --> 30:50.801 them to go to. A lot of my other personal 30:50.821 --> 30:54.566 information available online, it's not really 30:55.086 --> 30:57.087 probably much of interest to anyone, although 30:57.847 --> 30:59.828 there are probably, you know, wouldn't necessarily 30:59.868 --> 31:02.409 want everyone to kind of hack into my personal 31:02.429 --> 31:05.390 computer and, you know, necessarily see all 31:05.430 --> 31:07.731 my work on there or my family photos or whatever 31:07.771 --> 31:10.852 it is that I keep on there. But, you know, 31:11.152 --> 31:14.474 on balance, I actually kind of think the 31:14.534 --> 31:19.171 advantages of technology and you know, at 31:19.191 --> 31:21.873 the convenience that you talk about. On balance, 31:22.093 --> 31:26.397 I think that they are kind of, they do outweigh 31:26.437 --> 31:29.340 the disadvantages really. And I think it's 31:29.380 --> 31:33.784 important that regulators and policy makers 31:34.004 --> 31:35.906 are protecting us through the use of technology. 31:35.946 --> 31:38.188 And I think, you know, with AI coming in, 31:38.408 --> 31:41.151 you know, that's even more important because, 31:41.892 --> 31:44.294 you know, there's a risk of bias decision-making, 31:45.237 --> 31:47.259 all that kind of thing happening. And, you 31:47.279 --> 31:49.462 know, algorithms making decisions about us 31:49.762 --> 31:51.824 that could be really quite flawed. So there's 31:51.844 --> 31:54.327 some real, real big ethical issues there. 31:54.968 --> 31:57.190 But at the same time, I mean, you know, these 31:57.290 --> 31:59.152 algorithms could be far more effective at 31:59.312 --> 32:01.535 spotting cancers and things than humans actually 32:01.675 --> 32:04.478 are, and they will make our world more efficient. 32:04.538 --> 32:08.549 And maybe they might possibly help to address 32:08.629 --> 32:11.590 the inequality issue. Although, you know, 32:11.610 --> 32:13.771 they could also exacerbate the inequality 32:13.831 --> 32:16.091 issue that I just mentioned as well. So, 32:16.471 --> 32:18.892 you know, I think that's quite a threat there 32:18.932 --> 32:21.993 really. So, I mean, the world is not going 32:22.013 --> 32:24.373 to go backwards. Technology is not going 32:24.393 --> 32:25.914 to disappear just like, you know, all the 32:25.934 --> 32:27.214 machines that came out in the industrial 32:27.314 --> 32:29.535 revolution. You know, it's just that we're 32:29.555 --> 32:32.276 not going to be going back to living in caves 32:32.336 --> 32:34.998 and not having Facebook anymore. That's not 32:35.018 --> 32:37.940 going to happen. We've got to find a way 32:38.020 --> 32:40.701 that we make peace with it and we live with 32:40.722 --> 32:44.584 it. We look at the downsides, we look at 32:44.604 --> 32:48.226 the plus sides, and we develop policies and 32:48.266 --> 32:52.968 strategies that are always trying to make 32:53.008 --> 32:56.270 the best of those things while always having 32:56.290 --> 33:01.064 in mind the idea of how by doing this, in 33:01.104 --> 33:03.826 the end, can we make the world a better place? 33:03.866 --> 33:07.128 Because, you know, nothing is perfect. I 33:07.168 --> 33:09.510 mean, you know, you see the big drive for 33:09.550 --> 33:11.191 electric cars at the moment, not because, 33:11.211 --> 33:12.952 of course, they're great, you know, on the 33:13.332 --> 33:15.253 emissions front and things, but then they 33:15.273 --> 33:17.995 need loads of mining for their batteries, 33:18.255 --> 33:19.536 to get the minerals for their batteries. 33:19.916 --> 33:22.838 And so, you know, that's bad for the natural 33:22.878 --> 33:24.499 environment and, you know, then you've got 33:24.639 --> 33:26.661 risks of child minors and all kinds of things. 33:27.850 --> 33:30.791 It's very hard with anything in life to find 33:30.811 --> 33:35.312 a really perfect solution. I think what really, 33:35.612 --> 33:39.093 from a leader's perspective, is evaluating 33:39.133 --> 33:40.533 the trade-offs. And I think that's where 33:40.613 --> 33:43.714 leadership really comes in here. When you 33:43.754 --> 33:45.534 look at any kind of problem, any kind of 33:45.594 --> 33:49.936 scenario, and technology's one, it's really 33:50.176 --> 33:52.616 always about ethical trade-offs, I think. 33:52.676 --> 33:55.317 How much information do you need from people 33:55.970 --> 33:57.932 you know, create a product or a solution 33:57.972 --> 33:59.774 that is going to make a better difference 33:59.794 --> 34:01.677 to their lives. And in the case of Facebook, 34:02.117 --> 34:04.460 you know, yes, there's this handing over 34:04.500 --> 34:06.622 of data and everything, personal privacy 34:06.642 --> 34:08.615 and all that kind of thing. But actually, 34:08.655 --> 34:10.776 if you look at Facebook on a positive side, 34:10.896 --> 34:13.858 you can say, well, people connected with 34:13.978 --> 34:15.859 people they've lost contact with years ago. 34:15.879 --> 34:18.861 And suddenly, through Facebook, they're able 34:18.901 --> 34:21.222 to find them and connect with them and catch 34:21.262 --> 34:23.664 up and find out how about all their families 34:23.824 --> 34:25.905 are. And then in a world of a loneliness 34:25.965 --> 34:29.447 epidemic, which we have, actually, Facebook 34:29.467 --> 34:34.330 brings people together. So you kind of, I 34:34.390 --> 34:37.268 think you can look look at technology, it's 34:37.328 --> 34:39.849 this very dark world controlled by a few 34:39.889 --> 34:41.250 people. And certainly one of the things I 34:41.270 --> 34:43.452 have found from doing my research is there 34:43.692 --> 34:46.974 are a group of very influential people in 34:47.014 --> 34:50.736 the tech sector, in the US really, who are 34:50.916 --> 34:52.577 actually probably far more influential in 34:52.637 --> 34:54.338 our lives than most of us actually realise. 34:54.959 --> 34:58.301 And I certainly think that is true. But you 34:58.321 --> 35:00.302 can kind of look at it as this dark thing, 35:00.542 --> 35:02.503 or you can kind of look at it as all the 35:02.523 --> 35:04.501 opportunities it brings, And I think if at 35:04.541 --> 35:06.682 the end of the day, you said to people, well, 35:06.782 --> 35:08.984 you can just go digital detox, you know, 35:09.184 --> 35:10.745 don't do online banking, you have to go into 35:10.765 --> 35:12.807 the bank anymore, you all your social media 35:12.827 --> 35:15.169 will be cut off, set of emails, you can send 35:15.209 --> 35:17.711 everyone a letter, you know, if you gave 35:17.751 --> 35:19.332 people that kind of option, so would you 35:19.372 --> 35:21.874 rather do that? You wouldn't get many people 35:21.914 --> 35:24.516 saying yes, I don't really think so. And 35:25.036 --> 35:26.777 I think it's really looking at how the world's 35:26.837 --> 35:29.780 evolving, and kind of figuring out, you know, 35:29.900 --> 35:32.420 how you can balance these trade offs. in 35:32.460 --> 35:35.702 a way that ultimately, even if it's not perfect, 35:36.302 --> 35:39.463 in the long term, overall creates more benefits 35:39.483 --> 35:42.064 for society than disadvantages. 35:43.925 --> 35:46.526 What is a common myth about your job as a 35:46.566 --> 35:48.407 business journalist and editor? 35:50.327 --> 35:52.848 Well, I think the most common myth is that 35:52.968 --> 35:54.529 you can earn a lot of money from writing 35:54.569 --> 36:00.657 books. So I do have to kind of and correct 36:00.697 --> 36:02.578 people on that, even a book that does quite 36:02.638 --> 36:04.599 well, especially as a business book, you 36:04.619 --> 36:06.720 know, you're not likely to make yourself 36:06.780 --> 36:08.281 rich from it, unless you write something 36:08.301 --> 36:10.061 like Atomic Habits or something like that. 36:10.782 --> 36:13.003 So that's probably quite the common myth. 36:13.403 --> 36:17.004 But I think that actually, one of the things 36:17.064 --> 36:19.486 about being a business journalist and editor, 36:19.566 --> 36:21.586 you know, that I really like, is, you know, 36:21.606 --> 36:24.668 being able to explore ideas, and you talk 36:24.688 --> 36:27.289 to interesting people, and get different 36:27.329 --> 36:31.231 perspectives on the world. And And then you, 36:31.452 --> 36:34.434 and often I talk to people who go away and 36:34.494 --> 36:38.657 make me think about things differently. And 36:38.717 --> 36:42.140 I think, you know, that's a very important 36:42.540 --> 36:46.143 thing. And I really value that because I 36:46.183 --> 36:48.384 just get just such a broad perspective, you 36:48.404 --> 36:49.665 know, from talking to different people. And 36:49.765 --> 36:51.086 actually one of the things I like most is 36:51.106 --> 36:52.407 talking to people in different countries 36:53.248 --> 36:55.269 and, you know, hearing their perspectives 36:55.309 --> 36:58.052 on the world. And, you know, it's kind of 36:58.192 --> 37:01.160 really, been eye-opening for me, some of 37:01.180 --> 37:03.441 the things I've learned from talking to different 37:03.461 --> 37:06.382 people around the world. Because often, in 37:06.422 --> 37:09.744 your own country, everything is seen through 37:09.784 --> 37:12.165 the lens of your own country, with the immigration 37:12.185 --> 37:15.466 thing being a big obvious example. In the 37:15.526 --> 37:17.067 UK, they talk a lot about immigration. Like 37:17.127 --> 37:18.827 I say, when I talk to leaders in other countries, 37:18.847 --> 37:21.428 they talk about emigration, which is the 37:21.448 --> 37:23.469 flip side of the same thing. And so it really 37:24.050 --> 37:29.632 makes you sort of I think I have a job that 37:29.792 --> 37:31.656 kind of makes me go away and question things 37:31.976 --> 37:35.383 and it makes you sort of question the status 37:35.443 --> 37:38.488 quo and also accepted thought and also because 37:38.509 --> 37:40.653 it's your job as a journalist is to kind 37:40.713 --> 37:44.228 of present a balanced view, it does make 37:44.308 --> 37:47.130 you, I think, you know, you're not always 37:47.170 --> 37:49.170 going to say, well, this is absolutely right, 37:49.250 --> 37:52.472 or this is absolutely wrong. And, you know, 37:52.512 --> 37:54.713 I think, I tend to think that most sort of 37:54.773 --> 37:56.834 topics and things, you know, there is a bit 37:56.874 --> 37:59.375 of nuance in them, really. And it's your 37:59.395 --> 38:02.236 job as a journalist to not always, you know, 38:02.336 --> 38:05.638 toe the party line, but to say things that 38:06.522 --> 38:09.544 you know, maybe a bit controversial or may 38:09.564 --> 38:13.465 make people think differently or, you know, 38:13.566 --> 38:15.767 kind of, you know, it's part of your job 38:15.787 --> 38:18.028 to sort of, I think, get people to sort of 38:18.108 --> 38:20.129 challenge their own take on the world a little 38:20.149 --> 38:22.650 bit. And that's kind of what I enjoy about 38:22.750 --> 38:24.171 my job. I mean, I think one of the myths 38:24.211 --> 38:25.612 people can have about as a journalist is, 38:25.952 --> 38:27.532 oh, journalists just make things up, for 38:27.593 --> 38:30.354 example. And actually, obviously not. Professional 38:30.374 --> 38:32.635 journalists should be very vigilant about 38:32.695 --> 38:35.383 fact checking, not just make things up. Also, 38:35.423 --> 38:37.105 people would go, well, the news is so negative. 38:38.586 --> 38:41.988 But of course, it's human nature. Journalists, 38:42.028 --> 38:44.270 at the end of the day, journalists write 38:44.310 --> 38:45.991 what other people are interested in reading, 38:46.051 --> 38:48.313 right? If we didn't do that, we wouldn't 38:48.333 --> 38:50.835 have a job. So if you said to me, Sally, 38:50.875 --> 38:52.536 how was your holiday? And I said, oh, it 38:52.556 --> 38:54.377 was lovely. I had a marvelous time. I just 38:54.417 --> 38:56.579 sat by the pool drinking cocktails. You'd 38:56.599 --> 38:58.420 think that was really dull. But if you said 38:58.440 --> 39:00.161 to me, how was your holiday? I said, oh, 39:00.202 --> 39:02.482 well, you know. there was a tarantula in 39:02.522 --> 39:04.663 my bedroom, and you know, and I kind of gave 39:04.683 --> 39:07.185 you a long list of dramas of everything that 39:07.205 --> 39:09.266 happened in my holiday, you'd be far more 39:09.306 --> 39:11.868 interested in that. So, you know, I think 39:12.649 --> 39:14.170 when people always say to me, oh, it's all 39:14.190 --> 39:16.331 so negative. And I think to myself, well, 39:17.032 --> 39:19.433 yeah, we write what people want to read, 39:19.473 --> 39:21.374 you know, if everyone just wanted some kind 39:21.394 --> 39:24.498 of anodyne cheerful view of the world, you 39:24.518 --> 39:26.601 know, a lot of articles wouldn't be written. 39:26.681 --> 39:28.424 I mean, there is obviously a lot of articles 39:28.464 --> 39:30.246 that give practical advice and support people 39:30.266 --> 39:32.710 want to read those. But in terms of, and 39:32.750 --> 39:34.433 also, you know, the reality is lots of bad 39:34.493 --> 39:36.055 things go on in the world. So you know, if 39:36.096 --> 39:37.999 you want to keep up to date the news, unfortunately, 39:38.439 --> 39:40.300 People do bad things. That's the other thing. 39:40.320 --> 39:42.321 I mean, we don't make up the bad things that 39:42.361 --> 39:44.062 people do. They're going away doing them. 39:44.282 --> 39:45.783 This is not journalists coming up with them. 39:46.203 --> 39:48.884 If people do bad things, then we're just 39:48.904 --> 39:51.946 covering the news. So I don't know whether 39:51.986 --> 39:55.288 I've busted a few myths there, but flying 39:55.328 --> 39:57.349 the flag for journalists, especially in this 39:57.489 --> 40:01.191 age of misinformation that we've got, I actually 40:01.271 --> 40:02.852 think that following trusted journalists 40:02.892 --> 40:04.492 who've really done their research and think 40:04.532 --> 40:06.734 about the issues quite deeply, that's quite 40:06.754 --> 40:07.434 a useful thing. 40:08.345 --> 40:10.888 Finally, Sally, please advise our listeners 40:10.928 --> 40:13.190 where they may find your book 21st Century 40:13.230 --> 40:14.171 Business Icons. 40:15.152 --> 40:17.134 Well, you can get it in different places. 40:17.154 --> 40:19.416 It's available directly from the publisher's 40:19.477 --> 40:21.919 website. So it's published by Kogan Page 40:22.600 --> 40:28.380 and their website is www.koganpage.com. It's 40:28.520 --> 40:31.721 also available on Amazon for people who are 40:31.761 --> 40:34.041 able to access Amazon. And actually, it's 40:34.081 --> 40:36.662 been seen on sale in various airports around 40:36.682 --> 40:40.143 the world. I've been very lucky and I've 40:40.163 --> 40:42.123 had friends send me pictures they've seen 40:42.283 --> 40:45.944 it in South Africa and Singapore and places 40:45.984 --> 40:47.504 like that, which has given me a lot of pleasure 40:47.624 --> 40:50.285 seeing Dubai as well, seeing photos of my 40:50.305 --> 40:51.905 books in airports around the world. So it's 40:51.945 --> 40:53.825 available in lots of different places. And 40:53.906 --> 40:56.006 I think from Copenhagen, you can even get 40:56.066 --> 40:59.926 a electronic version as well. So, yes, if 40:59.946 --> 41:01.387 you're interested, please do go and read 41:01.467 --> 41:01.567 it. 41:02.808 --> 41:05.370 Ms. Sally Percy, thank you very much for 41:05.410 --> 41:07.031 being a guest on this podcast. 41:08.172 --> 41:09.873 Thank you. It's been a great pleasure. Thank 41:09.893 --> 41:10.674 you for having me. 41:11.674 --> 41:14.116 This podcast was brought to you by The Kamugasa 41:14.156 --> 41:16.198 Challenge in partnership with Democracy in 41:16.278 --> 41:19.220 Africa. Democracy in Africa is a platform 41:19.280 --> 41:22.022 dedicated to building a bridge between academics, 41:22.642 --> 41:25.244 policymakers, practitioners and citizens. 41:26.598 --> 41:29.180 The second episode in our leadership series 41:29.280 --> 41:32.923 is entitled Slavery, how to pay for the sins 41:32.963 --> 41:36.246 of our forefathers. An interview with Charlie 41:36.266 --> 41:39.689 Gladstone, the great great grandson of William 41:39.729 --> 41:42.891 Gladstone, the four time British Prime Minister. 41:44.072 --> 41:46.174 William Gladstone was the son of Sir John 41:46.254 --> 41:48.876 Gladstone, the first Baronet, a Scottish 41:48.956 --> 41:52.259 merchant, planter, Tory politician and slave 41:52.419 --> 41:55.378 owner. The podcast will go live on April 41:55.618 --> 41:59.142 14th, 2025. If you enjoyed this podcast, 41:59.222 --> 42:02.145 please click the share button on your app 42:02.285 --> 42:05.368 to send this episode to a friend. Thank you 42:05.408 --> 42:07.170 very much for taking the time to listen to 42:07.230 --> 42:10.714 this podcast. Until next time, goodbye.