WEBVTT 00:01.122 --> 00:04.923 Hello. Hi. Welcome back to Conversations 00:04.963 --> 00:08.243 with Stephen Kamugasa. This is the fourth 00:08.784 --> 00:13.405 podcast episode in our Genocide series. Today's 00:13.445 --> 00:18.326 guest is Dr. Helen Epstein, an American professor 00:18.446 --> 00:21.406 of human rights and public health with a 00:21.486 --> 00:25.547 special interest in Uganda and other countries 00:25.687 --> 00:31.830 in East Africa. Helen obtained a PhD in Molecular 00:31.870 --> 00:35.232 Biology from Cambridge University and an 00:35.353 --> 00:39.356 MSc in Public Health in Developing Countries 00:40.177 --> 00:44.200 from the London School of Hygiene and Tropical 00:44.500 --> 00:50.965 Medicine. Since 2010, Helen has been a visiting 00:51.046 --> 00:55.489 professor of Human Rights and Global Public 00:55.629 --> 02:59.475 Health at Bard College in New York. In 1993, 01:01.840 --> 01:04.942 Helen relocated to Uganda, where she worked 01:05.162 --> 01:09.065 on an AIDS vaccine research project and taught 01:09.145 --> 01:12.328 molecular biology in the medical school at 01:12.428 --> 01:17.132 Makerere University in Kampala. A vaccine 01:17.332 --> 01:21.995 against HIV remains elusive even now, and 01:22.096 --> 01:25.858 Helen witnessed firsthand the suffering caused 01:25.959 --> 02:59.475 by AIDS, which was the subject of her 2007 01:30.424 --> 01:34.407 book, The Invisible Cure, why we are losing 01:34.607 --> 01:38.810 the fight against AIDS in Africa. While working 01:39.010 --> 01:42.692 as a consultant in Uganda, Helen realized 01:42.772 --> 01:46.475 that despite massive donor investments in 01:46.495 --> 01:49.837 the health sector, the country's maternal 01:50.017 --> 01:53.279 and infant mortality rates weren't falling 01:53.339 --> 01:56.021 nearly as fast as those in other countries 01:56.722 --> 02:00.102 in the region. The reason wasn't hard to 02:00.142 --> 02:03.564 find. Uganda's institutions and leaderships 02:03.704 --> 02:08.328 were and remain highly corrupt and the international 02:08.368 --> 02:11.570 community has long turned a blind eye to 02:11.590 --> 02:14.893 the problem at the cost of thousands of lives 02:15.433 --> 02:19.917 each year. Ugandan activists and politicians 02:20.457 --> 02:22.839 who have tried to draw attention to corruption 02:22.859 --> 02:26.782 have suffered arrest, torture and worse. 02:27.778 --> 02:30.900 At the center of this troubling story is 02:31.040 --> 02:34.102 Uganda's strategic military partnership with 02:34.162 --> 02:38.005 Washington in the global war on terror, which 02:38.145 --> 02:42.207 Helen describes in her 2017 book, Another 02:42.247 --> 02:46.990 Fine Mess, America, Uganda, and the War on 02:47.050 --> 02:51.193 Terror. In this episode, we discuss the topic, 02:52.094 --> 02:55.156 Uganda in a Multipolar Brave New World Order. 02:55.836 --> 02:58.455 Dr. Helen Epstein, Welcome. 02:59.475 --> 03:00.696 Thanks so much, Stephen. 03:01.696 --> 03:06.437 On page 137 of your book, Another Fine Mess, 03:06.477 --> 03:09.678 you write, and I quote, I was first drawn 03:09.738 --> 03:12.779 to Uganda by its remarkable medical history. 03:13.599 --> 03:16.860 Well before colonial times, the people of 03:16.920 --> 03:19.681 this region had their own gods to distinguish 03:19.761 --> 03:23.502 plague from smallpox and perform cesarean 03:23.582 --> 03:26.843 sections, operations considered too difficult 03:27.468 --> 03:31.590 and dangerous by Europeans of the time. Helen, 03:32.210 --> 03:34.771 please tell us something about your childhood 03:34.931 --> 03:38.532 and education. And how did your early life 03:38.772 --> 03:43.214 experience ignite your curiosity, which subsequently 03:43.274 --> 03:47.636 led to stumbling upon Uganda's remarkable 03:47.956 --> 03:48.716 medical history? 03:51.778 --> 03:54.923 Yeah, thanks so much. I guess I had a pretty 03:55.083 --> 03:58.084 ordinary American childhood. I grew up in 03:58.124 --> 04:03.127 New York in an apartment in the city in the 04:03.187 --> 04:06.829 1960s. I was, but I always had a kind of 04:06.949 --> 04:10.251 wanderlust and my parents had a lot of books 04:10.591 --> 04:13.133 and they had a book about Africa. I think 04:13.153 --> 04:16.635 it was just pictures of animals, but it fascinated 04:16.695 --> 04:19.756 me. And I used to canoe down the Nile on 04:19.776 --> 04:21.978 their Ottoman chair with a vacuum cleaner 04:22.058 --> 04:26.841 pole as as a paddle. So when I found myself 04:27.221 --> 04:29.843 after graduate school working as a lab scientist, 04:30.583 --> 04:32.444 I kind of began to wonder, how did I end 04:32.544 --> 04:37.426 up here? Why am I not in Africa? And those 04:37.466 --> 04:40.867 were the days of the, this was the late 1980s, 04:40.927 --> 04:43.628 early 1990s, the days of the AIDS crisis, 04:43.948 --> 04:46.169 which really hasn't gone away. I mean, the 04:46.209 --> 04:48.550 disease is very much still there, but it's 04:48.590 --> 04:50.571 now being managed much better than it was. 04:51.658 --> 04:55.080 and back then the situation was really very 04:55.180 --> 04:58.883 dire. So I quit my job, which I didn't really 04:58.943 --> 05:01.985 like much anyway, and volunteered to help 05:02.045 --> 05:05.227 set up a little laboratory in Kampala at 05:05.287 --> 05:08.929 the main hospital, Belago, and did some experiments 05:08.989 --> 05:12.871 there. The team I was working for was trying 05:12.952 --> 05:16.874 to develop a prototype AIDS vaccine that 05:16.914 --> 05:19.177 was actually being tested in the United States, 05:19.237 --> 05:20.799 and they were trying to figure out whether 05:20.839 --> 05:23.923 it might work in Uganda too. Unfortunately, 05:23.943 --> 05:26.126 this was a long time ago, but it turned out 05:26.166 --> 05:28.750 the vaccine didn't even work in the United 05:28.810 --> 05:32.380 States, much less much less Uganda. So I 05:33.380 --> 05:35.982 think actually in the last year or so recently, 05:36.442 --> 05:39.663 there is now some sort of, it's not really 05:39.703 --> 05:41.924 a vaccine, but it does, it's a drug that 05:42.104 --> 05:44.606 offers long-term protection against HIV. 05:44.646 --> 05:47.287 And I think it's now being, they're trying 05:47.327 --> 05:50.648 to prepare to distribute it to people across 05:51.029 --> 05:52.789 in many parts of the world now, which is, 05:53.010 --> 05:57.352 which is very exciting. But back then there 05:57.372 --> 06:01.103 really was When I was really in the AIDS 06:01.143 --> 06:03.804 vaccine game, it was really clear that something 06:03.904 --> 06:06.226 else had to be done, and that's how I got 06:06.286 --> 06:09.808 interested in public health. Then within 06:09.868 --> 06:13.610 the topic of public health, I got particularly 06:13.730 --> 06:18.212 interested in the issue of corruption. For 06:18.252 --> 06:20.313 diplomatic reasons, international public 06:20.373 --> 06:22.374 health experts don't talk about it much, 06:22.935 --> 06:25.416 but in Uganda and, of course, other countries, 06:25.836 --> 06:28.278 it's a major reason for the massive loss 06:28.318 --> 06:32.504 of life and particularly of infants' children 06:32.724 --> 06:37.266 and mothers. That's what led me to an interest 06:37.326 --> 06:40.627 in Ugandan politics because really in the 06:41.327 --> 06:43.148 1990s during the Clinton administration and 06:43.228 --> 06:47.089 even more so during the George W. Bush administration 06:47.149 --> 06:50.030 in the early 2000s, the United States was 06:50.130 --> 06:53.292 pouring huge amounts of money into Uganda 06:53.312 --> 06:56.213 for health programs, which was a good thing 06:56.293 --> 06:59.220 in many, many ways. But the ruling elites 06:59.280 --> 07:01.160 were stealing practically every shilling 07:01.200 --> 07:03.942 that wasn't nailed down. And no one outside 07:04.062 --> 07:06.823 Uganda was saying anything about this. So 07:06.883 --> 07:09.764 I thought, let me try to draw some attention 07:09.825 --> 07:12.746 to the problem. And that's how I got interested 07:12.806 --> 07:15.127 in human rights, Ugandan politics, and so 07:15.247 --> 07:19.129 on. So here we are. 07:19.149 --> 07:22.410 On page 138 of your book, you write and I 07:22.230 --> 07:29.857 quote, Ugandan scientists helped pioneer 07:30.457 --> 07:34.079 treatment for childhood cancers and malnutrition 07:34.739 --> 07:37.180 and the mass immunization campaigns that 07:37.320 --> 07:41.682 UNICEF would later promote throughout the 07:41.802 --> 07:45.343 developing world. When Singapore was looking 07:45.363 --> 07:48.605 to reform its own healthcare system in the 07:49.065 --> 07:54.367 1960s, it sent a delegation to Uganda. What 07:54.427 --> 07:58.402 you say, Helen, doesn't align with the perception 07:58.462 --> 08:01.523 that many of us have of modern-day Uganda. 08:02.503 --> 08:05.904 Our listeners must be intrigued. Can you 08:05.944 --> 08:08.344 please say more about these programs? 08:09.885 --> 08:13.485 Well, even before colonial times, as you 08:13.565 --> 08:17.126 read, Uganda had a pretty sophisticated culture. 08:17.966 --> 08:22.569 Most of what we know is is from the historical 08:22.649 --> 08:26.350 record is about Uganda, but there were very 08:26.630 --> 08:28.631 sophisticated cultures throughout the country 08:28.711 --> 08:33.754 too. In Uganda, yeah, I was amazed. They 08:33.774 --> 08:37.295 were doing cesarean sections in the 1870s, 08:37.776 --> 08:41.237 which was pretty remarkable because they 08:41.277 --> 08:44.118 were not routine operations even in Britain 08:44.218 --> 08:47.825 at that time. and they were pretty dangerous 08:48.205 --> 08:50.866 to do and pretty scary. They used banana 08:50.946 --> 08:54.507 wine both as antiseptic and as anesthetic 08:55.228 --> 09:01.010 for the women, but it was pretty rough. For 09:01.090 --> 09:03.291 whatever reason, I think the British, when 09:03.311 --> 09:05.452 they arrived and took over the country, they 09:05.552 --> 09:08.973 actually recognized that there was something. 09:09.354 --> 09:12.293 They recognized the humanity in a sense or 09:12.333 --> 09:15.635 the culture of Ugandans in a way that they 09:15.655 --> 09:18.536 didn't necessarily normally do in their empire 09:19.397 --> 09:22.939 elsewhere. For some reason, they decided 09:22.999 --> 09:25.860 to try to turn Uganda into a kind of intellectual 09:25.940 --> 09:30.503 capital of their African empire. In the early 09:30.623 --> 09:32.844 scramble for Africa years, the late 19th 09:32.884 --> 09:36.866 century, early 20th century, when the British 09:36.926 --> 09:39.858 were first establishing their rule their 09:39.938 --> 09:42.520 officers did do some pretty terrible things 09:42.600 --> 09:44.682 in Uganda. They pitted tribes against each 09:44.762 --> 09:47.524 other. There were terrible massacres and 09:47.564 --> 09:51.608 so on. It was absolutely awful. But when 09:51.668 --> 09:56.052 things settled down around the sort of getting 09:56.392 --> 09:59.475 towards the mid-20th century, in parallel 09:59.515 --> 10:01.657 with, unfortunately, ongoing repression, 10:02.137 --> 10:07.726 the British did build a kind of very sophisticated 10:08.186 --> 10:11.669 medical and also educational system there. 10:11.689 --> 10:14.891 There was a Makerere, which is the main university 10:14.911 --> 10:18.954 in Uganda. It was really the Harvard of Africa 10:18.994 --> 10:22.397 then. The novelists V.S. Naipaul and Paul 10:22.437 --> 10:26.400 Theroux taught there. Attached to it was 10:26.440 --> 10:28.982 a very good hospital, Mulago, that Brits 10:29.022 --> 10:32.681 themselves, British people themselves went 10:32.741 --> 10:36.304 to. Researchers there pioneered these mass 10:36.344 --> 10:38.446 vaccination campaigns. They discovered the 10:38.486 --> 10:41.408 cause of a disease called Burkitt's lymphoma. 10:42.489 --> 10:44.190 They made other discoveries. They actually 10:44.290 --> 10:47.253 figured out how to deliver healthcare in 10:47.833 --> 10:52.017 poor countries. It was really quite remarkable. 10:54.211 --> 10:57.273 But what the British failed to do was create 10:57.693 --> 11:01.635 a culture of democracy, which would sustain 11:01.695 --> 11:03.876 those kinds of services. You really need, 11:04.477 --> 11:06.998 there really is evidence actually that in 11:07.078 --> 11:09.900 order to maintain a public health system, 11:10.900 --> 11:13.182 democracy is the best way of doing that because 11:13.282 --> 11:16.303 everyone, when people don't get the services 11:16.364 --> 11:18.165 they deserve, they actually have a voice 11:18.245 --> 11:23.041 and can say something about it. and politicians 11:23.081 --> 11:25.884 will take notice, which they don't do in 11:25.924 --> 11:27.886 dictatorships. They can ignore the voice 11:27.946 --> 11:31.789 of the people. But the British kind of set 11:31.849 --> 11:34.632 up Ugandan democracy to fail. They tried 11:34.672 --> 11:38.075 to create a parliamentary system that would 11:38.315 --> 11:40.857 manage the various tribal and regional interests 11:40.897 --> 11:44.761 of the people. But Uganda is an extremely 11:44.841 --> 11:48.934 diverse country ethnically. I like to think 11:48.974 --> 11:50.875 that democracy can still work in a place 11:50.915 --> 11:53.516 like that just as I like to think democracy 11:53.536 --> 11:55.737 can still work in the United States despite 11:55.817 --> 11:59.318 the challenges it's now facing. Democracy 11:59.358 --> 12:04.720 is a very, very fragile thing. When the British 12:04.840 --> 12:09.402 left Uganda in the early 1960s, they created 12:09.502 --> 12:12.143 two power centers. First, a prime minister 12:12.243 --> 12:15.778 who was Milton Abote at the time. president, 12:15.838 --> 12:17.839 who at that time was the traditional king 12:17.879 --> 12:20.360 of Uganda, the largest tribe in the country. 12:20.940 --> 12:23.160 And these two men despised each other and 12:23.200 --> 12:27.262 they clashed almost at once. And Uganda subsequently, 12:28.862 --> 12:30.703 one thing led to another and Uganda soon 12:30.743 --> 12:34.764 became a symbol of African dysfunction within 12:35.124 --> 12:42.146 just a few short years. And that's really 12:43.207 --> 12:47.899 where we are. Still, unfortunately, the situation 12:47.959 --> 12:52.142 has not much improved, even since the days 12:52.202 --> 12:55.624 of Idi Amin. We like to think that Idi Amin 12:55.664 --> 13:00.188 was the sort of apotheosis, the worst it 13:00.228 --> 13:03.110 can get as far as African governance goes. 13:03.190 --> 13:07.273 But in fact, the mayhem created under the 13:07.313 --> 13:11.096 current regime actually makes even the regime 13:11.156 --> 13:14.138 of Idi Amin look pretty good, to be honest. 13:15.981 --> 13:16.622 I'm afraid. 13:18.283 --> 13:22.806 Again, on page 138 of your book, you write, 13:22.927 --> 13:28.011 and I quote, today, this system is a shambles. 13:28.971 --> 13:33.295 Bats, snakes, and other wildlife have taken 13:33.375 --> 13:36.357 up residence in once functioning rural clinics. 13:37.278 --> 13:40.821 I have seen fecal material rain down from 13:40.961 --> 13:43.483 crumbling ceilings of operating theaters. 13:44.480 --> 13:47.862 power cuts and water shortages, in hospitals 13:47.943 --> 13:51.185 kill thousands of patients each year, and 13:51.225 --> 13:54.807 emergency operations on pregnant women are 13:54.867 --> 13:57.670 sometimes carried out by the light of torches 13:58.510 --> 14:04.094 made from burning grass. Helen, how important 14:04.274 --> 14:06.856 is leadership to the health of a country? 14:07.897 --> 14:11.880 And is it a reasonable and legitimate expectation 14:12.540 --> 14:16.361 that every person in any given nation state 14:16.461 --> 14:20.342 has a right to a public health infrastructure 14:20.442 --> 14:23.783 that is adequately resourced and operating 14:23.863 --> 14:24.323 properly? 14:25.163 --> 14:28.423 Well, a leadership is obviously crucial, 14:28.903 --> 14:32.224 I think. And as to whether it's reasonable 14:32.264 --> 14:34.064 for people to expect a functioning health 14:34.104 --> 14:37.225 system, well, I think so. I mean, Uganda, 14:37.325 --> 14:39.905 for example, has signed and ratified the 14:40.045 --> 14:43.226 UN Convention on Economic, Social and Cultural 14:43.326 --> 14:46.549 Rights. which among other things, commits 14:46.789 --> 14:49.111 the government to do everything within its 14:49.191 --> 14:51.393 means to improve the health of the people, 14:51.533 --> 14:53.795 especially the health of women and children. 14:53.815 --> 14:57.138 Uganda isn't doing that. It has the resources 14:57.198 --> 15:01.922 to do a much better job. Many of the medicines 15:02.242 --> 15:05.525 that are available in the Ugandan healthcare 15:05.565 --> 15:07.626 system are donated by rich countries when 15:07.646 --> 15:11.732 they aren't stolen by somebody there. But 15:12.353 --> 15:15.074 doctors and other medical staff aren't paid 15:15.434 --> 15:18.296 adequately or on time. Their equipment repairs 15:18.356 --> 15:20.277 aren't done. Buildings aren't maintained. 15:20.597 --> 15:23.838 It's really outrageous, really, and shouldn't 15:24.099 --> 15:29.761 ever happen. So, yeah, it's really a disgrace. 15:29.841 --> 15:31.902 And, you know, I thought things might get 15:31.963 --> 15:35.504 better when I wrote those words, now more 15:35.544 --> 15:39.406 than seven years ago, but it's, my understanding 15:39.466 --> 15:40.767 is things haven't gotten much better. 15:41.879 --> 15:44.040 You write the following on page 218 of your 15:44.520 --> 15:48.401 book regarding something called the Atlantic 15:48.461 --> 15:52.262 Charter, an idealistic agreement signed by 15:52.442 --> 15:55.223 Franklin Roosevelt and Winston Churchill 15:55.643 --> 15:58.744 on the eve of America's entry into World 15:58.804 --> 16:03.506 War II. And I quote, Roosevelt was almost 16:03.586 --> 16:06.867 certainly sincere about the sentiments contained 16:07.027 --> 16:10.210 in the Atlantic Charter. He had expressed 16:10.271 --> 16:13.052 similar views eight months earlier in his 16:13.292 --> 16:17.335 Four Freedoms speech, calling for freedom 16:17.555 --> 16:20.937 of speech and religion and freedom from fear 16:21.137 --> 16:25.340 and want everywhere in the world. It was 16:25.360 --> 16:29.082 this last phrase that worried FDR's advisors. 16:30.163 --> 16:33.405 That covers an awful lot of territory, Mr. 16:33.445 --> 16:36.586 President, speechwriter Harry Popkin said 16:36.947 --> 16:39.846 at the time. I don't know how interested 16:40.026 --> 16:43.508 the American people are going to be in the 16:43.548 --> 16:47.371 people of Java. I'm afraid they will have 16:47.471 --> 16:51.614 to be someday, Harry, the president replied. 16:52.394 --> 16:55.276 The world is getting so small that even the 16:55.336 --> 16:58.818 people in Java are getting to be our neighbors 16:58.918 --> 17:03.101 now. Please talk to us about the Atlantic 17:03.181 --> 17:07.100 Charter and Do the sentiments expressed in 17:07.120 --> 17:10.603 the Atlantic Charter apply equally to black 17:10.843 --> 17:14.065 Africans in a nation state such as Uganda? 17:15.125 --> 17:17.407 Should the American people care? 17:20.009 --> 17:27.013 Yeah. Americans have a lot of problems of 17:27.053 --> 17:30.075 their own right now, especially when it comes 17:30.635 --> 17:33.277 to their own, our own freedoms, actually. 17:34.435 --> 17:36.717 You know, books take a long time to see the 17:36.777 --> 17:40.800 light of day. Another fine mess from which 17:40.840 --> 20:25.998 that passage came was published in 2017, 17:45.404 --> 20:25.998 but it was mostly written in 2015 and 2016 17:49.507 --> 17:52.110 when Barack Obama was still the president 17:52.270 --> 17:55.172 and America was still seen to be the sort 17:55.212 --> 17:58.855 of reigning light of democracy in the world, 17:59.616 --> 18:01.717 or at least it was seen that way by many 18:01.797 --> 18:05.520 people. But I felt that America really hadn't 18:05.620 --> 18:08.442 been doing as good a job, at least since 18:08.502 --> 18:11.445 World War II, as it could have, and really 18:11.505 --> 18:15.007 lived up to its ideals or the ideals expressed 18:15.027 --> 18:18.310 by FDR in the Atlantic Charter and also in 18:18.330 --> 18:23.694 the For Freedom speech. After FDR died, we'd 18:23.834 --> 18:27.237 undermine democracy in Chile and Guatemala 18:27.637 --> 18:31.881 and Iran, participated in coups in all those 18:31.921 --> 18:36.939 countries. We'd messed up, we'd messed up 18:36.999 --> 18:40.681 Vietnam and Laos and Cambodia, Liberia and 18:40.741 --> 18:43.722 Congo. We'd backed the apartheid system in 18:43.762 --> 18:46.783 South Africa for far too long. Then there 18:46.803 --> 18:50.284 was Nicaragua and El Salvador, where we backed 18:50.384 --> 18:52.925 anti-democratic forces in those countries, 18:53.525 --> 18:56.926 and also not to mention Iraq and Afghanistan. 18:57.936 --> 19:00.458 And then, so when I arrived in Uganda and 19:00.518 --> 19:03.361 I realized we were supporting a corrupt dictatorship 19:03.381 --> 19:06.263 there too, it was depressing. Why were we 19:06.323 --> 19:10.066 doing this? FDR really was serious when in 17:20.009 --> 19:13.489 1941, he called for freedom everywhere. And 19:13.549 --> 19:15.130 I still agree with him, although it's kind 19:15.170 --> 19:18.733 of a lonely attitude. But I'm not sure human 19:18.793 --> 19:22.076 beings are capable of it. And I fear greatly 19:22.176 --> 19:24.918 that we, you know, we could destroy ourselves 19:25.539 --> 19:29.632 before we get there. Anyway, the bottom line 19:29.672 --> 19:31.813 is that Americans right now are preoccupied 19:31.853 --> 19:34.154 with their own problems, which of course 19:34.414 --> 19:36.795 have to do with our own democratic future, 19:36.835 --> 19:42.118 which seems to be in some peril. And I think 19:42.158 --> 19:45.540 the lesson is really that our leaders have 19:45.600 --> 19:49.382 never really believed in it. And if they 19:49.402 --> 19:52.703 can so easily undermine democracy elsewhere 19:52.723 --> 19:55.465 in other countries like Uganda, why not here 19:55.505 --> 19:58.459 too? In a way, we shouldn't be surprised 19:58.499 --> 20:00.601 by what's happening to us now, given what 20:02.882 --> 20:06.184 we've done overseas. And unfortunately, I 20:06.204 --> 20:08.566 don't think many Americans are caring much 20:08.626 --> 20:11.688 about Uganda, except a few of us here. But 20:11.748 --> 20:14.070 as long as we maintain a donor relationship 20:14.110 --> 20:16.872 with the country and partner with its military, 20:17.472 --> 20:19.453 we really have to care. I mean, as long as 20:19.814 --> 20:23.116 the Museveni regime is our ally, it's our 20:23.156 --> 20:25.998 responsibility too. That's my concern. 20:29.648 --> 20:34.412 Your book, Another Fine Mess, applies a scalpel 20:35.093 --> 20:38.556 to a festering wound, cutting deep to the 20:38.616 --> 20:42.919 very bone, as it were. In a chapter entitled 20:43.400 --> 20:47.383 Murder in Uganda, you write on page 182 the 20:47.403 --> 20:49.184 following, and I quote, since 2006, Irish, 20:49.224 --> 21:00.205 French, Italian, American, and Chinese companies 21:01.066 --> 21:04.268 had been scrambling for a foothold in what 21:04.348 --> 21:08.310 was estimated to be a 400 billion petroleum 21:08.451 --> 21:11.533 reserve in Western Uganda near the Congo 21:11.553 --> 21:16.356 border. In Africa, the discovery of oil typically 21:16.536 --> 21:19.458 amplifies corruption by swelling the rivers 21:19.518 --> 21:22.320 of patronage that keep leaders in power. 21:23.721 --> 21:26.303 There was every reason to believe Uganda 21:26.343 --> 21:30.470 would be no exception. Farther down in the 21:30.510 --> 21:35.332 chapter, you write on page 187, thus, and 21:35.412 --> 21:40.214 I quote, Alice had spoken to Cerinah earlier. 21:41.054 --> 21:44.076 She had seemed fine, but the man insisted 21:44.176 --> 21:47.337 she was at a hospital in a neighborhood called 21:47.697 --> 21:51.639 Nsambya. Because of the traffic, Alice couldn't 21:51.719 --> 21:54.841 get there quickly, so she called Cerinah's 21:55.101 --> 21:57.842 stepfather, who wove through the traffic 21:58.210 --> 22:01.511 on a hired motorcycle taxi. By the time he 22:01.571 --> 22:07.853 arrived, Cerinah was dead. Now, 400 billion 22:08.333 --> 22:13.074 in US dollars is a significant number. But 22:13.134 --> 22:16.455 Helen, are dead black Africans the price 22:16.515 --> 22:19.296 of doing business in the new world order, 22:19.996 --> 22:22.477 where great powers are vying against each 22:22.557 --> 22:26.198 other for access to natural resources on 22:26.238 --> 22:30.612 the African continent? And Helen, where does 22:30.793 --> 22:33.794 fighting climate change fit into the complicated 22:33.954 --> 22:37.496 balance of developing a poor African country, 22:37.677 --> 22:41.299 such as Uganda, while at the same time protecting 22:41.439 --> 22:43.620 her rich biodiversity? 22:46.061 --> 22:48.863 Thanks for that. Well, this is really the 22:48.903 --> 22:51.745 greatest challenge in that region of Africa 22:51.825 --> 22:55.264 right now. At the moment, Uganda is forging 22:55.324 --> 22:58.446 ahead with the East African crude oil pipeline, 22:59.126 --> 23:02.447 which will funnel oil from the west of Uganda 23:03.228 --> 23:05.529 and eventually from Eastern Congo and South 23:05.549 --> 23:08.450 Sudan as well via Tanzania to the coast. 23:09.211 --> 23:11.432 And in the process, it will destroy precious 23:11.572 --> 23:15.133 ecosystems, kill off wildlife, displace thousands 23:15.193 --> 23:18.135 of people. There's a war in Eastern Congo 23:18.215 --> 23:20.696 right now that few people know about, but 23:20.736 --> 23:22.617 a lot of people there are being killed in 23:22.677 --> 23:25.453 it. And it's partly about oil, which Uganda 23:25.493 --> 23:29.616 is trying to control. All that oil is also 23:29.676 --> 23:31.778 going to release tons and tons of carbon 23:31.818 --> 23:35.161 dioxide into the atmosphere, which will accelerate 23:35.181 --> 23:37.603 global warming and create more hurricanes, 23:38.183 --> 23:41.366 wildfires, deadly tornadoes and droughts 23:41.446 --> 23:45.549 and raise sea levels. There's a really inspiring 23:45.909 --> 23:48.651 campaign to stop the East African crude oil 23:48.752 --> 23:52.022 pipeline. and to target particularly the 23:52.102 --> 23:55.184 companies involved with it, including the 23:55.204 --> 23:58.986 multinational Total Energies, which is an 23:59.266 --> 24:02.408 American-French, Franco-American, largely 24:02.548 --> 24:05.389 multinational company, the Chinese National 24:05.569 --> 24:08.151 Overseas Oil Company, the Standard Bank of 24:08.211 --> 24:11.052 South Africa, the Industrial and Commercial 24:11.112 --> 24:14.554 Bank of China, and Sumitomo Mitsui Bank of 24:14.614 --> 24:18.216 Japan. Everyone needs to join the movement 24:19.097 --> 24:24.229 against that against that pipeline, not just 24:24.249 --> 24:27.712 to save Uganda, but to save the world. And 24:27.752 --> 24:30.354 also regarding the case of Cerinah Nebanda, 24:31.454 --> 24:34.176 the passage you read was about the young 24:34.376 --> 24:36.918 member of parliament, only 24 years old, 24:37.438 --> 24:40.320 who was a fearless campaigner against corruption, 24:40.381 --> 24:42.502 particularly in the oil sector in Uganda. 24:43.232 --> 24:45.914 She was only one of many prominent Ugandans 24:46.034 --> 24:48.355 who have died or been severely disabled, 24:49.155 --> 24:51.016 almost certainly at the hands of the Ugandan 24:51.056 --> 24:53.858 regime in recent years. Of course, there 24:53.878 --> 24:57.360 have been no transparent, independent investigations, 24:57.980 --> 25:00.141 but it's very dangerous to be an activist 25:00.201 --> 25:03.603 in Uganda. And that's why people from the 25:03.703 --> 25:06.805 outside world really need to step in and 25:06.825 --> 25:10.815 help out. especially regarding this very 25:10.895 --> 25:13.816 dangerous pipeline, which will not only destroy 25:13.856 --> 25:16.556 the world, but will also very much empower 25:16.756 --> 25:19.757 further the regime at the moment that's existing 25:19.797 --> 25:19.997 there. 25:21.597 --> 25:26.038 The title of our podcast is Uganda in a Multipolar 25:26.078 --> 25:31.399 Brave New World Order. On November 25th, 25:21.597 --> 25:34.579 2020, you published a powerful piece in the 25:34.699 --> 25:38.580 New York Review of Books entitled In Uganda, 25:39.412 --> 25:42.593 another Museveni crackdown in which you concluded 25:42.673 --> 25:46.734 thus, and I quote, of course, the diplomats 25:47.234 --> 25:50.075 see what's going on, but they must operate 25:50.115 --> 25:53.395 within a cruel system of foreign aid and 25:53.515 --> 25:57.316 subaltern military relationships in which 25:57.576 --> 26:01.097 rich countries hire poor armies to do their 26:01.257 --> 26:05.078 dirty work. Call it Cold War realpolitik 26:06.018 --> 26:09.775 or the global war on terror It amounts to 26:09.795 --> 26:13.938 a modern form of colonialism, even if Washington 26:13.998 --> 26:18.241 now terms it partnership. The donor cynicism 26:18.381 --> 26:21.624 boils down to the same kind of racism that 26:21.704 --> 26:25.547 prevailed in colonial times, born of vastly 26:25.647 --> 26:29.410 unequal power relations. In order to stuff 26:29.810 --> 26:33.233 a dictator's pockets so his forces will fight 26:33.253 --> 26:36.255 their wars, it is necessary to regard the 26:36.335 --> 26:41.844 lives of African people as expendable. Helen, 26:42.604 --> 26:46.685 given our podcast theme and the coming dark 26:46.905 --> 26:50.926 age of global lawlessness, is access to natural 26:50.946 --> 26:54.907 resources in Africa a critical national security 26:54.947 --> 26:58.928 concern for the US that supersedes all other 26:58.968 --> 27:02.989 considerations such as freedom, democracy, 27:03.129 --> 27:07.170 and the rule of law? And how, Helen, would 27:07.210 --> 27:11.101 you advise a little insignificant nobody 27:11.181 --> 27:15.004 like myself to help me influence the United 27:15.044 --> 27:18.407 States of America to reevaluate a foreign 27:18.487 --> 27:22.890 policy in the Great Lakes region of Africa? 27:25.092 --> 27:27.974 It's a tough one. It's a tough one. I think 27:28.014 --> 27:30.876 we all feel very small at the moment, given 27:30.916 --> 27:34.259 what's going on in the world. So I don't 27:34.299 --> 27:36.800 know, but keep doing what you're doing, talking 27:36.840 --> 27:40.398 to people and trying to get different viewpoints 27:40.538 --> 27:46.561 out there. Really, everyone must help where 27:46.701 --> 27:50.623 they can and do what they can. I think joining 27:50.663 --> 27:54.264 a campaign like Stop ECOP, or the East African 27:54.324 --> 28:00.207 Crude Oil Pipeline, would be a great place 28:00.247 --> 28:03.404 to start. Anyone can do that. Anyone. There 28:03.424 --> 28:05.746 are demonstrations going on all the time. 28:06.026 --> 28:08.548 Sign a petition. Join a demonstration. Become 28:08.588 --> 28:10.910 informed. Try to convince the people around 28:10.950 --> 28:13.812 you to care about the issue, too. It's something 28:13.833 --> 28:16.735 that affects everyone, especially the people 28:16.935 --> 28:20.137 of the future, wherever they live. It's really 28:20.177 --> 28:23.280 an existential problem. It's absolutely crucial. 28:24.661 --> 28:30.325 So I guess, yeah, that's the best advice 28:30.385 --> 28:31.026 I can think of. 28:32.249 --> 28:35.772 And finally, Helen, please advise our listeners 28:35.832 --> 28:38.255 where they may find your book, Another Fine 28:38.315 --> 28:38.615 Mess. 28:39.556 --> 28:41.878 Thanks so much. My book is available through 28:41.978 --> 28:44.821 Amazon.com and other online booksellers, 28:45.762 --> 28:47.904 or you can ask your local bookshop to order 28:47.984 --> 28:48.064 it. 28:49.385 --> 28:52.788 Dr. Helen Epstein, thank you very much for 28:52.889 --> 28:54.810 being a guest on this podcast. 28:55.911 --> 28:57.553 Many thanks for having me, Stephen. 28:58.717 --> 29:01.358 This podcast was brought to you by the Kamugasa 29:01.398 --> 29:03.838 Challenge in partnership with Democracy in 29:03.959 --> 29:07.319 Africa. Democracy in Africa is a platform 29:07.400 --> 29:10.460 dedicated to building a bridge between academics, 29:11.021 --> 29:13.721 policymakers, practitioners, and citizens. 29:14.762 --> 29:17.422 The fifth episode in the series is entitled, 29:18.143 --> 29:21.023 How Critical is Democracy in a Multipolar 29:21.123 --> 29:24.704 World? An interview with Professor Nick Cheeseman, 29:25.385 --> 29:28.831 a political scientist and Professor of Democracy 29:29.011 --> 29:31.892 and International Development at the University 29:31.952 --> 29:35.213 of Birmingham, specialising in democracy, 29:35.673 --> 29:39.813 elections and African politics. The podcast 29:39.833 --> 29:43.874 will go live on October 14th, 2024. If you 29:44.854 --> 29:48.135 enjoyed this podcast, please support us by 29:48.215 --> 29:50.555 subscribing to Conversations with Stephen 29:50.615 --> 29:53.916 Kamgassa through your favourite podcast app. 29:54.792 --> 29:56.735 Thank you very much for taking the time to 29:56.775 --> 29:59.779 listen to this podcast. Until next time, 30:00.540 --> 30:01.000 goodbye.