WEBVTT 00:02.273 --> 00:06.116 Hello, welcome back to Conversations with 00:06.196 --> 00:10.140 Stephen Kamugasa. This is the third podcast 00:10.280 --> 00:14.784 episode in our Genocide series. Today's guest 00:15.645 --> 00:20.169 is Dr. Jochen Lingelbach, a postdoctoral 00:20.229 --> 00:23.712 research assistant at the Chair of African 00:23.812 --> 00:28.075 History in the Cluster of Excellence at the 00:28.156 --> 00:33.730 University of Bayreuth. Dr. Lingelbach is 00:33.870 --> 00:37.053 a graduate of the University of Leipzig where 00:37.093 --> 01:14.547 he obtained a PhD in African Studies in 2018. 00:43.718 --> 00:48.882 Jochen is the author of On the Ages of Whiteness, 00:49.803 --> 00:53.546 Polish Refugees in British Colonial Africa 00:54.347 --> 00:59.591 During and After the Second World War. In 00:59.631 --> 01:03.939 this episode, We discuss the topic, genocide, 01:04.700 --> 01:07.902 how to challenge identity politics in the 01:08.062 --> 01:12.665 21st century. Dr. Jochen Lindgobar, welcome. 01:14.547 --> 01:16.388 Yeah, thank you for the kind introduction, 01:16.408 --> 01:18.590 Stephen. And thank you for inviting me here 01:18.610 --> 01:20.111 and your interest in my work. Thank you. 01:22.233 --> 01:26.035 It would seem that the old adage, when America 01:26.095 --> 01:29.058 sneezes, the rest of the world catches a 01:29.258 --> 01:33.899 cold. is accurate after all. Following his 01:33.999 --> 01:37.181 campaign on the platform of America First, 01:38.121 --> 01:41.362 Donald Trump was initially elected President 01:41.522 --> 02:54.072 of the United States of America in 2017. 01:46.764 --> 01:49.765 Immigration was one of Trump's platform's 01:49.966 --> 01:55.167 evocative themes. Immigration is a pressing 01:55.248 --> 01:58.589 political issue throughout Europe, with some 01:58.669 --> 02:01.849 fearing that it would turn liberal democracies 02:02.589 --> 02:07.233 into illiberal hotbeds of bigotry. Europe 02:07.734 --> 02:10.416 is now on the verge of descending into a 02:10.796 --> 02:14.719 new dark age that would make a mockery of 02:14.739 --> 02:18.002 the 70 million plus lives lost during the 02:18.042 --> 02:21.125 Second World War in the effort to rid the 02:21.165 --> 02:24.487 world of the supremacist ideology of the 02:24.568 --> 02:32.095 Nazis. Jochen, why is a nice German boy interested 02:32.135 --> 02:35.278 in the subject of immigration so much so 02:35.418 --> 02:38.740 that you have made a career of it as a scholar 02:39.981 --> 02:41.923 and is there something in your childhood 02:41.963 --> 02:45.385 you wish to share with us to help us understand 02:45.425 --> 02:48.768 your interest in the trials and tribulations 02:49.388 --> 02:51.590 of immigrants generally speaking? 02:54.072 --> 02:56.934 Thank you Stephen for the question. First 02:56.974 --> 02:59.917 of all Apart from many others who are interested 02:59.957 --> 03:02.298 in this particular history of Polish refugees 03:02.338 --> 03:04.779 in Africa, I have no direct personal connection 03:04.819 --> 03:06.900 with this, so I rather came by accident to 03:06.960 --> 03:09.741 it. But still, I think on a deeper level, 03:09.761 --> 03:12.142 there's an interest that comes also from 03:12.242 --> 03:15.983 my childhood and my family history. So my 03:16.363 --> 03:19.725 grandparents on my mother's side were refugees 03:20.065 --> 03:22.506 or ex-Polish at the end of the Second World 03:22.526 --> 03:27.729 War, came from the eastern part that is now 03:27.809 --> 03:31.370 Poland, but was then, before the war, eastern 03:31.390 --> 03:35.612 part of Germany. So there's... And my mother 03:35.652 --> 03:39.513 grew up as a refugee child, so to say. So 03:39.553 --> 03:43.434 I think that's something that comes from 03:43.474 --> 03:46.455 there, and a general interest in immigration 03:46.635 --> 03:52.516 and in displacement also. And a general interest 03:52.596 --> 03:56.652 in inequality. But... Coming to this topic, 03:56.692 --> 03:59.513 I was rather coming from my interest that 03:59.573 --> 04:01.474 is all connected to this. That's an interest 04:01.534 --> 04:03.875 in colonial history, in German colonial history, 04:03.895 --> 04:06.936 and then in colonial history in East Africa. 04:08.077 --> 04:11.378 So that's the detour I took, and then I came 04:11.738 --> 04:13.439 rather by accident to this, but I come to 04:13.459 --> 04:13.899 this next. 04:16.040 --> 04:20.201 On page one of On the Ages of Whiteness, 04:21.402 --> 04:23.923 under the heading of introduction, you write, 04:24.083 --> 04:29.073 and I quote, White refugees are not the expected 04:29.213 --> 04:33.414 inhabitants of the African colonies. From 04:16.040 --> 04:38.676 1942 to 1950, however, nearly 20,000 Poles 04:39.416 --> 04:43.358 lived in refugee camps in the British colonies 04:43.598 --> 04:47.299 of East and Central Africa. They were hosted 04:47.759 --> 04:51.380 in such diverse societies as Uganda, Kenya, 04:52.141 --> 04:56.102 Tanganyika, and Northern and Southern Rhodesia. 04:57.024 --> 05:00.626 and lived in over 20 camps ranging in size 05:00.746 --> 05:06.408 from a few hundred to nearly 4,000. How did 05:06.448 --> 05:10.250 they fit into the racial hierarchies of colonial 05:10.290 --> 05:13.571 societies? Were they part of the colonizers 05:13.911 --> 05:18.513 due to that European origin or had they more 05:18.653 --> 05:23.995 in common with the colonized? Your book raises 05:24.115 --> 05:27.261 many fascinating questions. made of which 05:27.422 --> 05:31.784 you answer persuasively. Please tell us how 05:31.924 --> 05:35.027 it came about and its true background. 05:37.468 --> 05:41.211 Yeah. Maybe I start first how I came to the 05:41.251 --> 05:44.273 topic. And this is, as I said, rather by 05:44.333 --> 05:47.455 accident. I was studying in Dar es Salaam 05:47.475 --> 05:50.637 in Tanzania and did my master thesis on the 05:50.697 --> 05:53.519 colonial history and segregation in the town. 05:54.499 --> 05:58.686 And in the course of this, I was interviewing 05:58.786 --> 06:01.648 old residents of Dar es Salaam and asking 06:01.668 --> 06:04.270 them just about how was it in the past, how 06:04.310 --> 06:06.072 was it under British colonial rule, and so 06:06.132 --> 06:09.254 on. And then one old man just told me that 06:09.274 --> 06:11.156 there were some Polish refugees in town. 06:11.276 --> 06:14.319 I was like, okay, it's not possible. I think 06:14.339 --> 06:17.161 he makes up something. But then I started 06:17.201 --> 06:19.023 researching on it and asking other people, 06:19.063 --> 06:20.864 and I learned about this history. And it 06:20.904 --> 06:22.946 was, yeah, I thought no one has ever written 06:23.006 --> 06:26.968 about it. this immediately drew my interest 06:27.368 --> 06:30.430 because I was just curious how this worked 06:30.590 --> 06:33.092 out because all of the things that I knew 06:33.172 --> 06:35.053 about colonial history was that there was 06:35.113 --> 06:38.695 quite a strong difference between rather 06:38.735 --> 06:42.157 powerful, rich, white people ruling people 06:42.358 --> 06:47.281 and poorer, less powerful Africans. So that's 06:47.341 --> 06:50.143 like the basic social hierarchies were there 06:50.183 --> 06:53.256 and then you have about 20,000 white poor 06:53.276 --> 06:55.197 refugees coming in. So I was just interested 06:55.217 --> 06:57.758 in what happened then. And so I started to 06:57.838 --> 06:59.638 learn more about this history, more about 06:59.698 --> 07:01.678 Polish history, which I was not aware of 07:02.699 --> 07:08.340 very much before. So let me maybe give a 07:08.660 --> 07:10.941 brief background because usually people don't 07:10.981 --> 07:13.321 know how they ended up there. And it's like 07:14.061 --> 07:18.403 the prehistory to my main interest, but I 07:18.583 --> 07:21.326 think it's important to know that. All this 07:21.366 --> 07:24.528 started in 1939 when Germany attacked Poland, 07:24.688 --> 07:27.629 and at the same time the Soviet Union occupied 07:27.689 --> 07:29.570 the eastern part of Poland, which was agreed 07:29.630 --> 07:34.052 at that time in the Hitler-Stalin Pact. Then 07:34.693 --> 07:37.774 the people I look at came from the eastern 07:37.794 --> 07:39.775 part of Poland, and they were part of a larger 07:39.795 --> 07:43.117 group that was deported mainly in 1940-41, 07:45.038 --> 07:47.799 deported to the Soviet interior, to labor 07:47.819 --> 07:55.532 camps there, had to endure quite hard times 07:55.552 --> 08:00.815 there. Until 1941, the Germans attacked the 08:00.835 --> 08:03.656 Soviet Union and suddenly broke this pact. 08:05.578 --> 08:07.939 And the Soviet Union was in dire need of 08:07.979 --> 08:10.861 support against this massive attack from 08:10.921 --> 08:16.004 the Germans. So they agreed, the Polish exile 08:16.044 --> 08:17.645 government that was sitting at that time, 08:17.665 --> 08:19.066 because they had to flee the country, they 08:19.086 --> 08:23.197 were sitting in London, They agreed a British-brokered 08:23.237 --> 08:27.479 agreement with the Soviet government, and 08:27.499 --> 08:29.700 that included the release of all Polish civilians 08:29.940 --> 08:32.321 in the Soviet Union at that time in order 08:32.361 --> 08:34.762 to form a Polish army that was supposed to 08:34.802 --> 08:36.823 fight against the Germans with the Allies. 08:38.324 --> 08:42.486 And this army was eventually, and the people 08:42.526 --> 08:44.967 who were released, was eventually transferred 08:45.607 --> 08:48.228 to Iran, where the British army was sitting 08:48.288 --> 08:51.254 and also was quite, in heavy need of support 08:51.294 --> 08:54.056 of additional fighters there because the 08:54.176 --> 08:57.218 Germans were threatening to go across there 08:57.258 --> 09:00.880 as well. So they formed the Polish Army in 09:01.020 --> 09:04.762 Iran, but with the evacuation of the Polish 09:05.243 --> 09:07.424 soldiers, there also came civilians. And 09:07.464 --> 09:08.785 then the British didn't really know what 09:08.805 --> 09:11.687 to do with them. They had just had these 05:37.468 --> 09:14.448 40,000 people sitting in Iran in camps and 09:15.129 --> 09:16.730 had to find a place anywhere in the world. 09:17.747 --> 09:19.208 because they knew if they want the army, 09:19.268 --> 09:21.289 they have to take care of their relatives 09:21.369 --> 09:25.471 and civilians. So that's, then they went 09:25.511 --> 09:27.452 around, tried to find any place and the only 09:27.492 --> 09:29.474 place and the only governments that could 09:29.514 --> 09:32.395 not say no to this group of refugees were 09:32.515 --> 09:35.197 in the British colonies. So there were, some 09:35.217 --> 12:42.764 went to India and the 20,000, roughly 20,000 09:38.758 --> 09:41.560 people I look at, went to Eastern African 09:41.600 --> 09:44.862 colonies. So they went mainly, as I said, 09:46.450 --> 09:49.111 mainly to what is today Tanzania and Uganda, 09:49.791 --> 09:52.492 and some to Kenya, some to Zambia, some to 09:53.012 --> 09:55.133 Zimbabwe, at that time it was northern and 09:55.153 --> 09:57.954 southern Tunisia, and some few to South Africa. 09:59.494 --> 10:03.116 So there they lived in some 20 refugee camps 10:03.776 --> 10:06.517 until the end of the war, and as most of 10:06.557 --> 10:09.038 them didn't want to go return voluntarily 10:09.298 --> 10:11.358 back to Poland, because at that time after 10:11.378 --> 10:13.819 the war Poland was part of the Soviet sphere 10:13.839 --> 10:15.900 of influence, so it was communist dominated, 10:16.796 --> 10:18.898 they didn't want to go back to Poland. So 10:19.558 --> 10:22.441 in the end, most of them resettled to the 10:22.541 --> 10:26.585 UK, some in other countries, some also voluntarily 10:26.825 --> 10:29.447 went back, and in 1951, the last refugee 10:29.467 --> 10:36.073 camp was eventually closed. So this is briefly 10:36.113 --> 10:39.696 the background history. And the main reaction 10:39.776 --> 10:42.688 of the colonial administration was They couldn't 10:42.728 --> 10:44.729 say no to the refugee influx, but they were 10:44.769 --> 10:47.390 not happy with it. It was just, okay, they 10:47.450 --> 10:49.871 had to contribute to the war effort, they 10:49.891 --> 10:54.353 had to contribute to what London was calling 10:54.413 --> 10:57.455 them, so they had to take them in, but they 10:57.475 --> 11:00.996 were all the time saying, yeah, we just take 11:01.016 --> 11:02.737 them for the time of the war, we don't want 11:02.777 --> 11:06.999 them permanently here. And they mainly did 11:07.179 --> 11:08.759 three things with the refugees. On the one 11:08.779 --> 11:11.568 hand, they were isolating them, in refugee 11:11.588 --> 11:14.510 camps, trying to have them not mingle too 11:14.550 --> 11:17.311 much with other people, which nevertheless 11:17.371 --> 11:20.353 happened, but they tried to reduce it to 11:20.393 --> 11:27.137 the lowest amount. And the second was that 11:27.177 --> 11:30.278 they were materially supporting them, to 11:30.318 --> 11:32.940 lift them up, because they were quite poor, 11:33.560 --> 11:36.021 peasant class, rural background, where they 11:36.041 --> 11:40.607 came from, completely, yeah, they lost everything 11:40.627 --> 11:43.469 in the deportation, so they were largely 11:43.549 --> 11:49.551 quite poor people. And to increase the difference, 11:49.571 --> 11:52.913 the social hierarchy, and to keep up this 11:53.093 --> 11:55.314 image of supposed white superiority, that 11:55.474 --> 12:01.957 white people are more richer, better established, 12:02.777 --> 12:04.778 the British supported them quite well in 12:04.798 --> 12:07.039 the refugee camps. I mean, it was not luxuries, 12:07.139 --> 12:09.919 but nevertheless, they were given pocket 12:09.959 --> 12:18.884 money, good food and medical supplies. And 12:18.924 --> 12:20.625 the third thing that after the war, they 12:20.665 --> 12:22.626 were quite clear that they don't want to 12:22.766 --> 12:24.567 keep them there and want to get rid of them 12:24.627 --> 12:26.608 as soon as possible. So they all the time, 12:26.628 --> 12:29.729 the colonial governments pushed and said, 12:29.829 --> 12:32.751 okay, when do they go? When do they go? So 12:33.271 --> 12:38.734 we don't want them here for sure. So that's 12:38.774 --> 12:40.742 maybe briefly. in this. Thank you. 12:42.764 --> 12:45.046 Again, under the heading of introduction, 12:46.587 --> 12:49.570 you write on page 10 the following, and I 12:49.610 --> 12:55.856 quote, this study is not only about colonial 12:56.096 --> 12:59.920 whiteness, but about forced migration as 13:00.000 --> 13:04.404 well. In the scholarly writings about migration, 13:05.185 --> 13:08.833 identity and the possibilities of renegotiating 13:09.073 --> 13:12.774 and remaking identities is a central topic. 13:13.894 --> 13:17.735 The entry into a new social setting necessitates 13:17.895 --> 13:21.016 a renegotiation of the migrant's social position. 13:22.296 --> 13:24.997 But I caution here against the use of the 13:25.057 --> 13:31.359 term identity. Jochen, the issue of identity 13:32.279 --> 13:34.460 is one that features prominently in this 13:34.540 --> 13:38.752 book. Please define what you mean by identity, 13:39.652 --> 13:41.032 and why the quotient? 14:06.650 --> 14:08.471 positions, and this can change, and there 14:08.491 --> 14:10.472 are people who don't fit into the categories, 14:10.512 --> 14:13.133 and that's what interests me here, because 14:13.613 --> 14:17.115 this group of Polish refugees were white, 14:17.215 --> 14:20.116 but they were, on the other hand, still not 14:20.176 --> 14:22.317 the same as the British, and didn't have 14:22.357 --> 14:26.439 the same position of the colonizer. So it 14:26.479 --> 14:28.660 was like this in between groups, and I think 14:28.720 --> 14:31.201 that there's a danger if we take identity 14:31.261 --> 14:34.983 for granted, that it's, that we, yeah, people 14:35.492 --> 14:37.814 just have to fit into one box and people 14:37.834 --> 14:43.358 don't necessarily fit into boxes. What I 14:44.579 --> 14:50.744 built on in my book is a text by Rogers Brubaker 14:50.864 --> 14:53.406 and Fred Cooper that is called Beyond Identity. 14:55.427 --> 14:56.828 And they are the caution against the use 14:56.868 --> 14:58.830 of identity that it's quite blurry and quite 14:58.870 --> 15:01.432 a lot of things are put under this term and 15:01.492 --> 15:05.079 they argue for, and I find it quite convincing 15:05.139 --> 15:07.541 for using more precise terms, especially 15:07.561 --> 15:13.926 analytically in scholarly work. And one example 15:13.946 --> 15:17.289 is identification. So that is how people 15:18.050 --> 15:20.592 identify on the one hand, identify themselves, 15:21.552 --> 15:24.606 if they identify with others. And there's 15:24.646 --> 15:28.869 categorization that is putting people into 15:28.909 --> 15:32.192 boxes. And that's not necessarily the same, 15:32.272 --> 15:35.634 that people who are categorized as such and 15:35.674 --> 15:38.196 such, that they really feel and identify 15:38.236 --> 15:41.138 with this category. And then there's a third 15:41.178 --> 15:43.660 thing, and that I also think is quite important, 15:43.680 --> 15:45.421 that the feeling of groupness, what they 15:45.441 --> 15:49.864 call it, that people feel connected. And 15:50.324 --> 15:52.966 that's, I think, what makes identity strong. 15:53.046 --> 15:55.488 It's not the category where you put it. I 15:55.528 --> 15:57.309 mean, all of this interacts with each other, 15:57.349 --> 15:59.911 but it's different things if you look precisely. 15:59.971 --> 16:02.013 And this feeling of groupness and connectedness, 16:02.153 --> 16:07.417 feeling connected to others who are on the 16:07.457 --> 16:12.521 same level. Yeah. So, and I think that's 16:12.541 --> 16:14.943 the way I try to approach it, to not say 16:15.043 --> 16:18.322 it's identity, but to look precisely what 16:18.382 --> 16:20.663 is doing and seeing it as what is happening 16:20.703 --> 16:23.503 there, who is identifying whom. So who is 16:23.523 --> 16:26.224 categorizing, who is putting whom into category. 16:26.244 --> 16:29.285 And I think that's this process real terms 16:29.345 --> 16:32.385 of identification, categorization and so 16:32.485 --> 16:35.146 on. And I think that's important to not take 16:35.186 --> 16:37.907 it for granted, but to see who is doing this 16:38.967 --> 16:39.607 actually. 16:41.428 --> 16:45.915 Yeah. Speaking of identity, You write on 16:45.935 --> 16:49.877 page 188 the following, and I quote, one 16:49.997 --> 16:53.038 day he was sitting with some white men on 16:53.878 --> 16:56.879 the veranda having a drink before lunch. 16:59.060 --> 17:02.721 When an African woman servant passed by and 17:02.841 --> 17:05.602 entered the house, there was no reaction 17:05.982 --> 17:09.603 by the white men at all. And the conversation 17:09.683 --> 17:14.660 went on uninterrupted. Next, a Polish woman 17:14.860 --> 17:18.321 servant entered the house. This time the 17:18.381 --> 17:21.303 conversation was interrupted shortly. The 17:21.343 --> 17:24.684 men shifted uneasily in their seats, but 17:24.724 --> 17:29.487 did not greet her. When finally a white woman 17:30.107 --> 17:32.908 who was not Polish passed the main, they 17:32.948 --> 17:36.410 stood up and exchanged greetings with her. 17:37.611 --> 17:40.292 Please talk to us about the colonial notion 17:41.624 --> 17:44.445 that domestic servants operate smoothly in 17:44.525 --> 17:48.107 situations where servants and employers are 17:48.147 --> 17:50.868 considered different from each other. And 17:51.048 --> 17:55.390 how did the arrival of poor Polish refugees 17:56.131 --> 17:57.151 challenge this notion? 17:59.152 --> 18:00.553 Yeah, thank you. Thank you for pulling out 18:00.573 --> 18:03.194 this anecdote, which I really like. It's 18:03.314 --> 18:07.076 from anthropologist John Barnes, who wrote 18:07.116 --> 18:09.016 this, like his own observations back then. 18:11.189 --> 18:15.030 And I think this scene captures quite well 18:15.070 --> 18:17.490 this in-between position of the Polish refugees 18:18.111 --> 18:22.191 in that case. And I think that as a basic 18:22.211 --> 18:25.412 thing, that social hierarchies and exploitation 18:25.852 --> 18:29.193 and domestic work is very often built on 18:29.213 --> 18:32.274 the assumption of difference, that the people 18:32.394 --> 18:35.374 doing the domestic work are a different social 18:35.394 --> 18:39.892 group than the people employing them. And 18:39.952 --> 18:42.054 in this anecdote, you see that there's no 18:42.114 --> 18:44.635 problem. Like this white man sitting in the 18:44.695 --> 18:47.778 veranda, they are used to African servants 18:47.838 --> 18:49.799 and they just ignore them completely. They 18:49.819 --> 18:53.121 are not social beings for them in that regard. 18:53.321 --> 18:54.622 So they don't have to greet. They don't, 18:54.822 --> 18:59.005 yeah, they invisibilize them, so to say. 19:00.266 --> 19:02.988 And the same for this white woman, which 19:03.228 --> 19:06.470 I think was British. She's clearly part of 19:06.510 --> 19:09.816 their group, so they greet her. So, yeah. 19:11.197 --> 19:14.819 But then this Polish woman is bringing an 19:14.999 --> 19:17.121 unease, and I think that's the uneasiness 19:17.281 --> 19:20.262 of when people don't fit into the categories. 19:20.362 --> 19:23.144 And for them, in that situation, they didn't 19:23.164 --> 19:25.926 fit into the category because she was obviously 19:26.086 --> 19:28.947 white, so they're supposed to be part of 19:28.987 --> 19:30.808 her group. But on the other hand, she was 19:30.848 --> 19:34.931 a domestic servant, and I think that comes 19:35.011 --> 19:38.433 out quite clearly, the uneasiness they have 19:38.513 --> 19:41.812 with her. And I think that's what I like 19:41.852 --> 19:44.674 about this anecdote and found interesting. 19:45.735 --> 19:47.336 And I think that, yeah, this assumption of 19:47.376 --> 19:50.439 difference is like a base for exploitation 19:50.479 --> 19:52.380 for social hierarchies to say, okay, these 19:52.640 --> 19:55.062 people are others, are different from us, 19:55.402 --> 19:58.865 so to say. And that's what makes it so powerful, 19:58.905 --> 20:00.807 the different identifications in that case. 20:03.288 --> 20:07.492 On page 93 of the book, you write thus, and 20:07.592 --> 20:11.670 I quote, Despite the universalist rhetoric 20:12.611 --> 20:15.653 and the dedication to principles of non-discrimination, 20:16.494 --> 20:21.097 the humanitarian activities of the IRO and 20:21.137 --> 20:25.941 the early UNHCR were largely limited to European 20:26.001 --> 20:30.565 refugees and DPs. The privileged position 20:30.865 --> 20:34.608 of the Polish refugees in Africa shows that 20:34.688 --> 20:38.263 this limitation was based on racial are not 20:38.523 --> 20:43.685 regional categorization. While the international 20:43.745 --> 20:47.466 refugee regime operated in Africa in the 20:48.406 --> 20:52.187 1940s, its assistance was limited to the 20:52.267 --> 20:58.409 white refugees there. Jochen, please take 20:58.469 --> 21:02.690 us through the UNHCR's founding history. 21:03.511 --> 21:07.172 First of all, how does race fit into the 21:07.252 --> 21:12.009 narrative around the UNHCR's professionalism. 21:12.689 --> 21:16.692 That is, is there a problem with race today? 21:16.712 --> 21:22.155 Yeah, thank you. On your last question, sure. 21:22.375 --> 21:24.616 I mean, racism is a global problem as it 21:24.656 --> 21:28.278 was then and it still is. So it's also a 21:28.318 --> 21:30.620 problem within humanitarian organizations 21:30.860 --> 21:34.462 and UNHCR. So I think this is quite clear. 21:37.955 --> 21:42.799 go a bit through the founding history. To 21:42.819 --> 21:46.963 simplify it a bit, UNHCR had two predecessor 21:47.023 --> 21:49.806 organizations. The first was the United Nations 21:49.906 --> 21:52.268 Relief and Rehabilitation Administration. 21:53.609 --> 21:58.373 It was founded in 1943, so when the Second 21:58.393 --> 22:00.355 World War was still going on, but it was 22:00.515 --> 22:03.838 with the intention to plan for the post-war 22:03.898 --> 22:06.630 period. to take care of displaced persons 22:06.791 --> 22:10.012 and also to rebuild the countries in Europe. 22:11.132 --> 22:13.593 And this was quite limited to Europe. They 22:13.613 --> 22:17.954 also had a program in China. But look here 22:18.034 --> 22:22.716 on the European side. UNRRA was followed 22:23.116 --> 22:27.758 in 1947, was then ended and was followed 22:27.798 --> 22:30.439 by the UN International Refugee Organization, 22:30.559 --> 22:33.220 IRO, which was like the first specialized 22:33.300 --> 22:40.685 UN organization. And then out of IRO, again, 22:40.705 --> 22:47.629 the UNHCR evolved in 1951. It gets a bit 22:47.669 --> 22:49.230 more complicated if we go into the details, 22:49.270 --> 22:54.073 but that's like roughly the line. And generally 22:54.753 --> 22:56.434 in the historiography, in history writing, 22:56.494 --> 23:00.057 it's UNRRA and IRO were very much focused 23:00.137 --> 23:03.814 on Europe. on especially the DP operations 23:03.854 --> 23:07.937 were focused on Europe and regionally limited. 23:08.017 --> 23:10.619 So it was, yeah, just for the countries that 23:10.679 --> 23:15.062 were, had been occupied by the Nazis more 23:15.102 --> 23:19.285 or less. But as I learned from my own, in 23:19.305 --> 23:21.367 my work is that they also operated in Africa 23:21.387 --> 23:25.750 as well. Because the Polish refugees then 23:25.810 --> 23:28.372 did come under the mandate of UNRRA and the 23:28.452 --> 23:32.313 IRO. before UNHCR was founded, they were 23:32.373 --> 23:34.875 already not in the refugee status anymore, 23:34.915 --> 23:37.817 but they did come under this mandate, and 23:37.977 --> 23:40.538 other refugees in Africa did not come under 23:40.559 --> 23:44.101 the mandate, and as well Indian refugees 23:44.141 --> 23:48.303 from India and Pakistan in 1948, the millions 23:48.343 --> 23:51.245 of people who were the partitioned refugees, 23:53.466 --> 23:58.589 they did not come under IRO. And so I argue, 23:58.909 --> 24:00.791 based on this, I argue that it was not only 24:00.831 --> 24:03.213 the regional limit to Europe, but they were 24:03.253 --> 24:06.915 taking care of refugees who were in Africa, 24:06.975 --> 24:10.258 but they were only taking care of the European 24:10.298 --> 24:13.240 refugees who had found their way to Africa. 24:13.460 --> 24:20.185 So, yeah. Setting aside your book, you wrote 24:20.225 --> 24:22.887 the following in an article that was published 24:23.388 --> 24:26.150 in the Journal of Imperial and Commonwealth 24:26.230 --> 24:31.491 History. on June 22nd, 2022, and I quote, 24:33.173 --> 24:36.255 historians of the international refugee regime 24:37.196 --> 24:40.078 rightly identify the European post-war era 24:40.839 --> 24:43.861 as a crucial site for the emergency of the 24:43.961 --> 24:48.545 United Nations refugee organizations, legislation, 24:48.985 --> 24:52.968 and procedures. International organizations 24:53.088 --> 24:57.921 like UNRRA and its direct successor, the 24:58.001 --> 25:01.684 United Nations International Refugee Organization, 25:02.585 --> 25:06.528 were set up to care for and control Europe's 25:06.608 --> 25:09.991 displaced persons. They developed procedures 25:10.051 --> 25:14.014 and policies that formed the basis of the 24:13.460 --> 25:18.698 1951 Geneva Convention and the UNHCR core 25:18.758 --> 25:21.360 pillars of today's international refugee 25:21.620 --> 25:25.593 regime. Please share with us the little-known 25:25.714 --> 25:28.976 fact about how the British colonial experience 25:29.836 --> 25:32.838 shaped the UN refugee system that you speak 25:32.918 --> 25:38.261 of. Furthermore, how crucial is it that we 25:38.301 --> 25:42.984 both particularize and universalize the history 25:43.164 --> 25:43.945 of refugees? 25:46.346 --> 25:49.568 Yeah, thank you. Thank you for that. Maybe 25:49.608 --> 25:51.510 I start with the second question, and I think 25:52.400 --> 25:56.201 particular rise and to universalize. I think 25:56.221 --> 25:59.401 the important thing in writing refugee history 25:59.501 --> 26:01.722 is on the one hand to say people are always 26:01.762 --> 26:04.762 fleeing from war and from misery to places 26:04.782 --> 26:07.083 that are safer. And that was during the Second 26:07.103 --> 26:08.923 World War that was from Europe to Africa. 26:09.063 --> 26:11.984 And today it's from some African countries 26:12.104 --> 26:16.604 or countries to Europe or in the Americas 26:16.644 --> 26:19.605 from the south of the north. So I think that's 26:20.975 --> 26:24.337 That's important to keep in mind that it's, 26:24.517 --> 26:27.439 what is today maybe a place of refuge or 26:27.459 --> 26:30.541 a place people fleeing to can tomorrow be 26:30.581 --> 26:32.482 a place where people flee from because there's 26:32.522 --> 26:35.864 conflict. We also saw this with Ukrainian 26:35.904 --> 26:37.845 refugees, for example, who came to Europe. 26:38.946 --> 26:41.227 And I think that's important to keep this 26:41.267 --> 26:43.128 in mind that this is a general condition 26:43.168 --> 26:45.210 and that's why it's important to always be 26:45.270 --> 26:48.812 open to people fleeing. Because on the next 26:48.832 --> 26:52.907 day, this could be you. And, but on the other 26:52.947 --> 26:55.048 hand, as a historian, I think it's always 26:55.188 --> 26:58.149 important to particularize, so to say, okay, 26:58.409 --> 27:00.870 to look at the specific context and to say, 27:00.930 --> 27:04.471 okay, not every refugee is the same. So people 27:04.951 --> 27:09.252 have different abilities and different resources 27:09.952 --> 27:13.213 and are differently treated according to 27:13.393 --> 27:15.974 different forms of where they stand in terms 27:16.014 --> 27:18.935 of discrimination and so on. And I think 27:18.975 --> 27:23.399 that's, what can be seen here if you see 27:23.419 --> 27:27.462 how rather well the refugee camps were. And 27:27.482 --> 27:29.503 maybe going back to the article, you said 27:29.524 --> 27:32.826 that it's about a group of Greek refugees 27:32.886 --> 27:35.367 who then ended up in the Eastern Congo in 27:35.407 --> 27:38.490 refugee camps there. And observers described 27:38.530 --> 27:40.951 at that time these were some of the best 27:41.051 --> 27:43.353 refugee camps in the world. So because they 27:43.393 --> 27:47.095 were rather well treated by the Belgian colonial 27:47.135 --> 27:50.519 authorities there, And if you contrast this 27:50.579 --> 27:53.500 with current day refugee camps in Greece, 27:53.780 --> 27:56.902 then you see that it's quite a difference 27:57.122 --> 28:00.484 in treatment of people. So that's the particular. 28:01.905 --> 28:03.566 But going back to the colonial experience, 28:04.487 --> 28:06.768 the British colonial experience, as I said 28:06.808 --> 28:09.710 in this text, I'm looking at this Greek group, 28:09.790 --> 28:12.971 and they were part, like the Polish, and 28:13.112 --> 28:15.433 also some from Yugoslavia who stayed in the 28:15.473 --> 28:20.578 Middle East, people who were hosted by the 28:20.618 --> 28:23.280 British Colonial Administration in the colonies 28:23.360 --> 28:29.706 in Africa. And the United Nations Relief 28:29.766 --> 28:31.807 and Rehabilitation Administration, UNRRA, 28:33.229 --> 28:35.431 they had their very first field mission in 28:35.491 --> 28:38.173 the Middle East. And this was with refugee 28:38.193 --> 28:40.955 camps that were set up by the British Imperial 28:41.836 --> 28:46.160 Refugee, I call it Imperial Refugee Regime. 28:47.015 --> 28:48.956 in connection to the international refugee 28:49.076 --> 28:55.039 regime, what we have today. It built on this. 28:56.000 --> 29:00.622 And so these first UN refugee professionalizing 29:00.682 --> 29:03.903 humanitarians, they were working in camps 29:03.963 --> 29:08.726 and together with British colonial administrators. 29:09.386 --> 29:13.808 And that's where I think that some of the 29:13.848 --> 29:17.948 ways of treating refugees and the infrastructure 29:17.968 --> 29:21.230 is in place so that this transferred from 29:21.290 --> 29:24.791 the colonial into the so-called international 29:24.892 --> 29:28.313 or the UN system. And I think that's an important 29:28.393 --> 29:30.654 point to look at. And that's what I do in 29:31.135 --> 29:33.836 some of my work now. So, yeah. 29:36.117 --> 29:40.860 The title of our podcast is Genocide, How 29:40.900 --> 29:43.041 to Challenge Identity Politics in the 21st 29:43.061 --> 29:49.106 Century. Now, Emily Arnold-Fernandez, an 29:49.286 --> 29:52.947 adjunct professor with the Refugee Law Initiative 29:54.047 --> 29:56.668 at the University of London School of Advanced 29:56.728 --> 30:00.429 Study, published a paper entitled, The Global 30:00.469 --> 30:04.211 Compact on Refugees, Inadequate Substitute 30:05.351 --> 30:11.453 or Useful Complement? The paper argues that, 30:11.653 --> 30:15.072 and I quote, The substitution of the Global 30:15.112 --> 30:19.173 Compact for Refugee Convention is problematic 30:19.233 --> 30:22.114 from a human rights perspective, because 30:22.174 --> 30:25.635 the Global Compact makes very little provision 30:26.235 --> 30:30.196 for refugees' rights and interests, instead 30:30.256 --> 30:33.756 focusing on the rights and interests of states. 30:35.257 --> 30:38.877 Jochen, in the context of our podcast theme, 30:40.378 --> 30:43.563 please define for us what you understand 30:43.723 --> 30:47.524 by the Global Compact on Refugees. And in 30:47.544 --> 30:50.284 the current age of identity politics and 30:50.364 --> 30:53.885 conservative nationalism, how should the 30:53.985 --> 30:57.006 rights and welfare of migrants be protected? 31:00.127 --> 31:03.768 Yeah, thanks so much. Yeah, I'm not really 31:03.808 --> 31:06.729 an expert in international legal things and 31:06.749 --> 31:08.429 the Global Compact on Refugees, but as far 31:08.449 --> 31:11.595 as I understand it and see it, I think it's 31:11.695 --> 31:19.720 quite important to keep up the human rights 31:21.360 --> 31:26.043 idea and also the Universal Declaration of 31:26.103 --> 31:32.726 Human Rights and the Geneva Refugee Rights 31:33.106 --> 31:35.948 Convention. And I think because, however 31:36.008 --> 31:38.389 insufficiently fulfilled these universal 31:38.449 --> 31:41.377 rights are, they are still And I think it's 31:41.417 --> 31:43.018 important to criticize where they are not 31:43.658 --> 31:47.679 fulfilled. But on the other hand, it still 31:48.099 --> 31:51.820 has the idea and the aspirational ideal that 31:52.300 --> 31:54.941 there should be rights. Every human being 31:55.081 --> 31:57.321 on the world should have universal basic 31:57.361 --> 32:00.162 rights. And I think that's the right to have 32:00.222 --> 32:03.423 rights. And I think that's quite an important 32:03.903 --> 32:07.741 safeguard against abuse. And I think it's 32:07.801 --> 32:11.163 still important to keep up this ideal and 32:11.203 --> 32:14.005 to strive towards it. Although it's clear 32:14.045 --> 32:16.906 that it's not enforced and currently it looks 32:17.266 --> 32:21.249 at the other way. But I think, yeah, as the 32:21.289 --> 32:24.130 author said, it's important to keep up this 32:24.810 --> 32:26.972 rights discourse and that is not something 32:27.012 --> 32:29.033 that is given to people, but people have 32:29.113 --> 32:31.974 it already. They have their rights. And that's 32:32.114 --> 32:34.656 important to insist on this. And people have 32:34.696 --> 32:36.217 the right to flee and they have the right 32:36.257 --> 32:40.539 to not be push back at the borders, although 32:40.619 --> 32:42.621 it happens every day, but I think that's 32:43.061 --> 32:47.464 important to keep this ideal up because that's 32:47.685 --> 32:49.906 what we should strive for. 32:52.368 --> 32:55.391 As a scholar specializing in the study of 32:55.471 --> 32:58.833 refugees, what is your biggest fear? 33:04.450 --> 33:06.932 I think it's connected to the erosion of 33:07.072 --> 33:09.254 refugee protection that we are seeing right 33:09.294 --> 33:14.157 now and the rise of right-wing racist nationalism 33:14.377 --> 33:18.220 in many countries around the world and especially 33:18.280 --> 33:22.263 in Europe, which is the context I know best. 33:22.283 --> 33:25.386 You can see that it's quite a race to the 33:25.526 --> 33:28.288 bottom of different European governments 33:28.348 --> 33:35.697 trying to bring ever more harsh and strict 33:35.917 --> 33:39.599 and bad policies against immigration. I've 33:39.619 --> 33:43.262 just been two weeks ago at the Polish-Belarusian 33:43.302 --> 33:46.404 border at a seminar there where they just 33:46.965 --> 33:49.807 have, the Polish government with EU support 33:49.827 --> 33:54.710 has built a huge fence through the forest, 33:55.411 --> 33:57.813 topped with barbed wire and full of military 33:57.833 --> 34:00.515 installations to keep out people who are 34:00.615 --> 34:03.375 fleeing from misery and from war. I think 34:03.395 --> 34:08.619 that's quite dehumanizing and horrible to 34:08.699 --> 34:11.782 see this trend. People still try to get over 34:11.802 --> 34:13.603 it, but then they get hurt more, and they 34:13.703 --> 34:15.465 take ever more dangerous routes and die. 34:15.485 --> 34:19.067 And I think that's maybe the biggest fear, 34:19.107 --> 34:23.971 that there's an increasingly open dismissal 34:24.071 --> 34:27.234 of basic human rights and basic right for 34:27.294 --> 34:33.234 asylum, and that this trend is getting worse 34:33.274 --> 34:34.895 and worse. And I think that's on the one 34:34.916 --> 34:39.659 hand, it's people are suffering. That's the 34:39.679 --> 34:42.881 worst thing with it. But also it's, it has 34:42.941 --> 34:45.703 repercussions on the societies that are building 34:45.723 --> 34:49.806 the walls. They are getting themselves more 34:49.846 --> 34:51.947 authoritarian inside. And I think that's, 34:52.287 --> 34:54.609 yeah, that's how these both are connected. 34:56.210 --> 34:58.232 And that's part of the research group I'm 34:58.652 --> 35:01.414 currently working in, in Bielefeld. And that's, 35:02.717 --> 35:05.599 looking in the way and to to say that when 35:05.779 --> 35:08.960 when societies build walls around them that 35:09.001 --> 35:11.042 also changes the societies within the walls 35:11.142 --> 35:13.143 and that's not changing them to the better 35:13.503 --> 35:16.925 but but rather uh yeah closing them and making 35:16.965 --> 35:19.446 them more authoritarian and this and this 35:19.526 --> 35:21.667 is a cycle i think that's that's worrying 35:21.928 --> 35:23.589 the most and i think that's what we have 35:23.609 --> 35:27.811 to try to work against yeah finally johan 35:28.871 --> 35:31.033 please advise our listeners where they may 35:31.113 --> 35:31.773 find your book 35:32.470 --> 35:33.871 on the ages of whiteness? 35:33.891 --> 35:38.954 Thank you. Yeah, I think you can, the first 35:38.994 --> 35:41.795 address is the publisher website, that's 35:42.056 --> 35:47.699 barakhan.com. And then I think in all the 35:47.739 --> 35:51.581 larger online book ordering services, you 35:51.601 --> 35:56.344 can get them, can get the book. And if you 35:56.384 --> 35:58.385 live in a region where it's difficult to 35:58.465 --> 36:00.707 order the book, you can still always write 36:00.727 --> 36:04.350 me an email and figure out a way to get you 36:04.390 --> 36:07.212 at least a soft copy of the book. But so, 36:07.252 --> 36:09.834 yeah, I'm happy to to be in conversation 36:09.874 --> 36:10.274 about this. 36:12.096 --> 36:15.458 Dr. Jochen Lingelbach, thank you very much 36:15.498 --> 36:17.580 for being a guest on this podcast. 36:19.741 --> 36:21.783 Thank you so much, Stephen, for organizing 36:21.823 --> 36:23.224 this, for inviting me and for your great 36:23.264 --> 36:26.127 questions and interest in my work. giving 36:26.147 --> 36:27.989 me the platform and yeah, I think it's really 36:28.029 --> 36:30.171 important what you're doing here. Thank you. 36:31.772 --> 36:34.474 This podcast was brought to you by the Kamgassa 36:34.494 --> 36:37.517 Challenge in partnership with Democracy in 36:37.617 --> 36:41.100 Africa. Democracy in Africa is a platform 36:41.140 --> 36:44.823 dedicated to building a bridge between academics, 36:45.424 --> 36:48.346 policymakers, practitioners and citizens. 36:49.467 --> 36:53.030 The fourth episode in the series is entitled 36:53.291 --> 36:56.685 Uganda in a Multipolar Brave New World Order, 36:57.565 --> 37:01.387 an interview with Dr. Helen Epstein, a visiting 37:01.467 --> 37:04.109 professor of human rights and global public 37:04.189 --> 37:07.550 health in the Global and International Studies 37:07.650 --> 37:12.753 program at Bard College in the USA. The podcast 37:12.793 --> 37:17.795 will go live on August 12th, 2024. If you 37:17.835 --> 37:20.877 enjoyed this podcast, please support us by 37:20.957 --> 37:23.318 subscribing to Conversations with Stephen 37:23.378 --> 37:26.443 Kamugasa through your favourite podcast app. 37:27.365 --> 37:29.450 Thank you very much for taking the time to 37:29.490 --> 37:32.537 listen to this podcast. Until next time, 37:33.359 --> 37:33.780 goodbye.