1 00:00:01,834 --> 00:00:05,155 Hello, welcome back to 2 00:00:05,195 --> 00:00:09,396 Conversations with Stephen Kamugasa. This 3 00:00:09,616 --> 00:00:13,698 is the first of six podcast episodes on 4 00:00:13,778 --> 00:00:16,939 genocide. The 5 00:00:16,999 --> 00:00:21,460 goal is to break the overwhelming silence around 6 00:00:21,520 --> 00:00:26,562 the problem of genocide in our day and age. There 7 00:00:26,762 --> 00:00:30,663 are a lot of reasons why so many of us remain 8 00:00:30,743 --> 00:00:34,164 silent even in the face of mounting evidence 9 00:00:34,844 --> 00:00:38,766 that a new genocide may be occurring somewhere in 10 00:00:38,806 --> 00:00:43,487 the world right now. Today's 11 00:00:43,528 --> 00:00:48,309 guest is Dr. Maria Chamberlain. Dr. 12 00:00:48,349 --> 00:00:51,671 Chamberlain is an honorary fellow at 13 00:00:51,691 --> 00:00:54,752 the University of Edinburgh and the daughter of 14 00:00:54,832 --> 00:00:58,193 two Holocaust survivors. She 15 00:00:58,233 --> 00:01:01,998 was born in Krakow, Poland. and emigrated 16 00:01:02,139 --> 00:01:06,901 to the UK with her parents in 1958 at 17 00:01:06,941 --> 00:01:10,702 the age of 11. The 18 00:01:10,742 --> 00:01:14,164 family settled in Edinburgh where she still lives. 19 00:01:16,345 --> 00:01:20,227 Maria pursued an academic career as 20 00:01:20,327 --> 00:01:24,008 a biologist researching plant and fungal biology 21 00:01:24,669 --> 00:01:30,648 and teaching undergraduates at the University of Edinburgh. Following 22 00:01:30,728 --> 00:01:34,669 her retirement from full-time teaching, Maria 23 00:01:34,969 --> 00:01:38,470 put pen to paper, researching for several years, 24 00:01:39,370 --> 00:01:43,051 and meticulously piecing together the story of her two Jewish 25 00:01:43,091 --> 00:01:47,072 families in Nazi-occupied Poland during 26 00:01:47,112 --> 00:01:51,153 the Holocaust. The result is 27 00:01:51,313 --> 00:01:55,894 a book, Never Tell Anyone You're Jewish, My 28 00:01:55,954 --> 00:02:01,820 Family, the Holocaust, and the Aftermath. The 29 00:02:01,860 --> 00:02:05,203 book is a powerful, compelling and 30 00:02:05,363 --> 00:02:08,666 personal testimony and witness which we 31 00:02:08,887 --> 00:02:14,672 will all do well to read and reflect upon. In 32 00:02:14,712 --> 00:02:18,335 this episode, we discuss the topic, genocide, 33 00:02:19,156 --> 00:02:24,020 why it is important to bear witness. Dr. 34 00:02:28,073 --> 00:02:31,414 Thank you very much. Thank you. I'm honoured and 35 00:02:37,976 --> 00:02:41,576 On page 212 of your book, Never 36 00:02:41,596 --> 00:02:44,877 Tell Anyone You're Jewish, you write, and I 37 00:02:44,937 --> 00:02:48,718 quote, "The other thing that Nela taught 38 00:02:48,778 --> 00:02:52,219 me on our walks in the woods was the joy of 39 00:02:52,279 --> 00:02:55,480 foraging for mushrooms. As a 40 00:02:55,500 --> 00:02:58,628 country girl, she was an expert and 41 00:02:58,668 --> 00:03:01,931 knew not only which ones were good and 42 00:03:01,991 --> 00:03:05,474 which poisonous, but also the best ways to 43 00:03:05,534 --> 00:03:08,657 cook and preserve them. It 44 00:03:08,697 --> 00:03:11,960 was without a doubt this early experience with 45 00:03:12,020 --> 00:03:16,424 her that later inspired me to study fungi professionally 46 00:03:17,605 --> 00:03:20,708 and to continue to consider foraging as one of 47 00:03:20,828 --> 00:03:26,527 my favourite pastimes." Please 48 00:03:26,807 --> 00:03:30,249 talk to us about Nela and 49 00:03:30,289 --> 00:03:33,951 your early childhood experience in Poland. And 50 00:03:33,991 --> 00:03:37,373 how have these childhood experiences with special reference 51 00:03:37,413 --> 00:03:40,495 to your mother and father colored the 52 00:03:45,418 --> 00:03:50,101 I had a really happy childhood in Poland. My 53 00:03:50,141 --> 00:03:53,583 parents both worked and when I was three, they 54 00:03:54,787 --> 00:03:59,269 hired Nela. Nela was a 55 00:03:59,309 --> 00:04:03,230 country girl. I called her Anielcia. And 56 00:04:03,290 --> 00:04:07,672 she looked after me while my parents worked. But 57 00:04:07,752 --> 00:04:12,974 unlike my parents, whose lives were tainted by 58 00:04:13,154 --> 00:04:16,835 trauma, Nela was a breath of 59 00:04:16,956 --> 00:04:20,238 fresh country air. She 60 00:04:20,298 --> 00:04:23,599 cleaned, she baked, she looked after me, and 61 00:04:23,619 --> 00:04:28,900 I loved her. Every 62 00:04:28,980 --> 00:04:32,960 summer, my parents would dispatch Nela 63 00:04:33,200 --> 00:04:36,861 and me to the foothills of the Tatras. 64 00:04:38,781 --> 00:04:43,042 That's the mountains near Krakow. And 65 00:04:43,402 --> 00:04:49,037 it was there that Nela introduced me to mushrooms. Finding 66 00:04:49,137 --> 00:04:52,500 a set, even now, never fails to 67 00:04:52,580 --> 00:04:56,122 bring me joy that's almost visceral. It's 68 00:04:56,302 --> 00:05:01,026 such fun. Nela 69 00:05:01,106 --> 00:05:04,529 also taught me to read the landscape. As a country girl, 70 00:05:04,609 --> 00:05:08,892 she really knew her trees. She knew her mushrooms 71 00:05:09,032 --> 00:05:13,776 and she knew quite a lot of flowers too. And 72 00:05:14,937 --> 00:05:18,393 she taught me to read the landscape. And it's a skill that 73 00:05:18,473 --> 00:05:22,316 I try to now instill in my students because 74 00:05:22,476 --> 00:05:27,880 we townspeople now seem to have lost it. I 75 00:05:28,120 --> 00:05:31,743 also describe in my book an incident which 76 00:05:31,863 --> 00:05:35,986 describes Nela, but it also describes the situation in 77 00:05:36,086 --> 00:05:39,989 Poland at the time. One 78 00:05:40,049 --> 00:05:43,172 summer when we were lodging in 79 00:05:43,192 --> 00:05:46,578 the foothills of the Tatras, in a guest 80 00:05:46,638 --> 00:05:51,320 house with a fiercely antisemitic landlady. The 81 00:05:51,360 --> 00:05:55,983 landlady said to Nela, that child, is she Jewish? And 82 00:05:56,023 --> 00:05:59,785 Nela said, no, of course not. Okay, 83 00:06:00,246 --> 00:06:03,367 so on her walks, on our walks in the 84 00:06:03,407 --> 00:06:07,850 woods, Nela taught me the Polish 85 00:06:07,930 --> 00:06:11,132 Catholic prayers. And 86 00:06:11,212 --> 00:06:14,387 I had to recite them back to her. And as we 87 00:06:14,448 --> 00:06:17,790 walked, looking for mushrooms, I recited the 88 00:06:17,830 --> 00:06:21,253 Catholic prayers. I was good in those days at 89 00:06:21,313 --> 00:06:25,436 learning verse and prose 90 00:06:26,017 --> 00:06:29,299 and poetry, probably not so good at it now, but 91 00:06:30,961 --> 00:06:34,483 I didn't mind. I thought that was a good idea to recite some prayers. 92 00:06:35,024 --> 00:06:40,368 Anyway, at night, when we came back to the landlady's house, Nela 93 00:06:40,428 --> 00:06:44,041 bid me to kneel at the foot of the bed and 94 00:06:44,081 --> 00:06:47,424 recite those prayers that children have to recite on 95 00:06:47,484 --> 00:06:51,266 their way to bed. And she opened the door wide 96 00:06:51,547 --> 00:06:54,729 and I recited them loud. And the 97 00:06:54,769 --> 00:06:58,011 landlady heard them and I never had any 98 00:06:58,091 --> 00:07:01,634 trouble after that. And strangely 99 00:07:01,694 --> 00:07:05,637 enough, of course, she never asked me to recite prayers 100 00:07:05,717 --> 00:07:09,700 when we came back to Krakow. So 101 00:07:17,728 --> 00:07:21,289 In the prologue of Never Tell Anyone You're Jewish, 102 00:07:21,569 --> 00:07:27,191 at page three, you write, and I quote: "At 103 00:07:27,271 --> 00:07:30,432 last, we are finally free, said my 104 00:07:30,472 --> 00:07:34,693 mother. But you must never, ever, 105 00:07:34,953 --> 00:07:39,014 tell anyone you're Jewish. I 106 00:07:39,094 --> 00:07:43,196 leaned over the rail of the cross-channel ferry that 107 00:07:43,236 --> 00:07:46,477 was bringing us to England. In 108 00:07:46,497 --> 00:07:50,372 the churning water, a piece of detached seaweed 109 00:07:50,612 --> 00:07:56,035 danced, turned, and then floated past. I 110 00:07:56,076 --> 00:08:00,918 remember feeling like that seaweed, infinitesimal, 111 00:08:02,339 --> 00:08:08,843 uprooted, adrift." Maria, 112 00:08:09,704 --> 00:08:13,045 please dramatise for us, as best as you can, 113 00:08:14,146 --> 00:08:17,835 the feeling you allude to. And what exactly 114 00:08:17,896 --> 00:08:21,157 did it mean to you in that particular moment as 115 00:08:24,679 --> 00:08:28,941 Well, it's interesting that both you and I were 116 00:08:28,981 --> 00:08:32,823 uprooted at an early age and you'll probably agree 117 00:08:33,503 --> 00:08:37,605 that this has consequences. Anyway, 118 00:08:38,285 --> 00:08:42,627 the injunction, my mother's injunction, never 119 00:08:42,687 --> 00:08:46,075 tell anyone you're Jewish. Never 120 00:08:46,155 --> 00:08:51,219 tell anyone about my past and heritage. It 121 00:08:51,259 --> 00:08:54,702 was very isolating because being 122 00:08:54,822 --> 00:08:58,345 Jewish was what I felt with every cell 123 00:08:58,385 --> 00:09:04,149 in my body. Those 124 00:09:04,189 --> 00:09:08,053 were the first words I learned as a child. I 125 00:09:08,073 --> 00:09:11,635 didn't understand what they meant, but I knew they were very 126 00:09:11,735 --> 00:09:15,595 important. For 127 00:09:15,775 --> 00:09:19,658 us, it seemed that Jewishness was not defined 128 00:09:20,118 --> 00:09:23,301 by Judaism, about which I knew 129 00:09:23,401 --> 00:09:28,765 very little, but by the Holocaust. And 130 00:09:28,785 --> 00:09:32,247 this injunction to never tell anyone, coming 131 00:09:32,307 --> 00:09:36,731 to a new place in a new language, never 132 00:09:36,791 --> 00:09:40,033 tell my peer group, how was I going to 133 00:09:40,073 --> 00:09:43,516 make friends if they didn't know this very important thing about 134 00:09:43,536 --> 00:09:46,959 me? So, I felt uprooted and 135 00:09:47,039 --> 00:09:51,402 adrift, and I anticipated a new 136 00:09:51,562 --> 00:09:55,025 friendless future. Anyway, 137 00:09:55,245 --> 00:09:58,688 I consoled myself as 11-year-olds might. 138 00:10:00,009 --> 00:10:03,872 I consoled myself looking forward to three things in 139 00:10:03,932 --> 00:10:07,575 no apparent order. To eat a banana, 140 00:10:09,076 --> 00:10:12,379 to meet my uncle, and to 141 00:10:12,419 --> 00:10:16,367 see a working television These are three things, three 142 00:10:22,930 --> 00:10:26,172 Again, at page three of your book, you write, and I 143 00:10:26,232 --> 00:10:30,094 quote, "When I read Anne 144 00:10:30,234 --> 00:10:34,196 Frank's diary to my grandchildren, and 145 00:10:34,256 --> 00:10:38,018 they watched the film of the boy in striped pyjamas, they 146 00:10:38,078 --> 00:10:41,920 said, how sad, without 147 00:10:42,040 --> 00:10:47,040 realising the scale of the operation. I 148 00:10:47,080 --> 00:10:52,383 was recently outraged to find out that my granddaughter's GCSE 149 00:10:52,983 --> 00:10:56,485 history curriculum, while concentrating on 150 00:10:56,505 --> 00:11:00,307 the 20th century, seems to have somehow 151 00:11:00,427 --> 00:11:07,290 missed out the Holocaust altogether." How 152 00:11:07,410 --> 00:11:10,592 crucial is it that history be 153 00:11:10,652 --> 00:11:14,128 taught truthfully? And 154 00:11:14,168 --> 00:11:17,831 why do you believe that the world is ready to hear about 155 00:11:20,753 --> 00:11:24,356 I think that history syllabus, at least here 156 00:11:24,796 --> 00:11:28,459 in the UK, is full of kings and queens and military 157 00:11:28,539 --> 00:11:32,322 battles. And even now, the 158 00:11:32,362 --> 00:11:35,864 Scottish history curriculum, both 159 00:11:35,944 --> 00:11:39,787 at National Fives, which is equivalent to GCSEs, 160 00:11:40,267 --> 00:11:46,116 and Highers, which is a sort of pre-A level qualification, misses 161 00:11:46,296 --> 00:11:49,620 out the Holocaust altogether. The Holocaust is 162 00:11:49,900 --> 00:11:56,186 airbrushed out. Why? I don't 163 00:11:56,226 --> 00:11:59,309 know why. Next week, I 164 00:11:59,369 --> 00:12:03,533 am honoured to speak at an awards ceremony at 165 00:12:03,593 --> 00:12:07,577 which awards will be handed out to 12 special 166 00:12:07,657 --> 00:12:11,002 schools that teach the Holocaust. and 167 00:12:11,022 --> 00:12:14,603 they teach it with the help of a special organisation called Vision 168 00:12:14,643 --> 00:12:18,925 Schools Scotland. And what I don't understand is 169 00:12:18,985 --> 00:12:22,326 why these schools have to be singled out. Why is 170 00:12:22,886 --> 00:12:26,628 Holocaust education not mandatory in Scotland and 171 00:12:26,668 --> 00:12:31,850 the world over? It's 172 00:12:31,890 --> 00:12:36,792 a puzzle. Is it Israelophobia? Maybe. Anyway, 173 00:12:36,872 --> 00:12:40,253 since writing my book, I've been repeatedly told 174 00:12:41,470 --> 00:12:44,932 by readers that they really didn't know 175 00:12:44,952 --> 00:12:48,594 about the Holocaust. They knew that six million 176 00:12:48,654 --> 00:12:53,376 Jews died and what happened to Anne Frank, but 177 00:12:53,436 --> 00:12:57,778 not what really happened. Obviously, 178 00:12:58,058 --> 00:13:02,400 they didn't go to any special visual schools. I 179 00:13:02,440 --> 00:13:07,622 think the Holocaust, this one, my 180 00:13:07,682 --> 00:13:10,853 Holocaust, one might say, the one that 181 00:13:10,893 --> 00:13:14,535 happened during the Second World War, the 182 00:13:14,575 --> 00:13:17,998 main one, needs 183 00:13:18,058 --> 00:13:21,420 to be talked about. And maybe because 184 00:13:21,480 --> 00:13:25,263 people don't, that other Holocausts have 185 00:13:30,827 --> 00:13:35,090 Regarding teaching history, truthfully, you 186 00:13:35,110 --> 00:13:42,234 said the following on page 155 of your book, and I quote, "The 187 00:13:42,274 --> 00:13:45,635 name Belzec seems to 188 00:13:45,695 --> 00:13:49,835 be relatively unfamiliar to my friends, hardly 189 00:13:49,975 --> 00:13:54,536 any of whom had ever heard of it. The 190 00:13:54,556 --> 00:13:58,357 few nights my father spent at Auschwitz never 191 00:13:58,417 --> 00:14:01,718 failed to impress. But when I tell 192 00:14:01,778 --> 00:14:06,358 people of my grandmother's death in Belzec, their 193 00:14:06,618 --> 00:14:12,149 eyes glaze over with incomprehension. One 194 00:14:12,169 --> 00:14:16,172 of the reasons for Belzec's obscurity is 195 00:14:16,232 --> 00:14:21,116 because almost no one survived to tell the tale. Another 196 00:14:21,176 --> 00:14:24,779 reason might be because it was never liberated by 197 00:14:24,819 --> 00:14:28,062 the British. Along with 198 00:14:28,142 --> 00:14:31,965 Chelmno, Sobibor, and 199 00:14:32,005 --> 00:14:35,268 Treblinka, Belzec was 200 00:14:35,408 --> 00:14:42,369 liberated by the Soviets in the summer of 1944. But by then, there 201 00:14:42,389 --> 00:14:46,910 was nothing much left to liberate. The 202 00:14:47,771 --> 00:14:51,932 500,000 Jews it had processed were dead and 203 00:14:51,972 --> 00:14:59,854 the killing machinery had already been dismantled." Maria, 204 00:15:00,894 --> 00:15:04,455 please discuss with us Belzec's special status as 205 00:15:04,535 --> 00:15:08,437 a factory for killing. Furthermore, how 206 00:15:08,577 --> 00:15:11,906 crucial is it that we are aware of 207 00:15:16,008 --> 00:15:19,650 Well, Belzec or Belzec, 208 00:15:20,191 --> 00:15:23,473 as it's pronounced in Polish, was a factory and 209 00:15:23,553 --> 00:15:27,975 death was its product. Interestingly, 210 00:15:28,075 --> 00:15:31,397 music played at Belzec as people 211 00:15:31,437 --> 00:15:35,119 were led to their deaths because music or 212 00:15:35,660 --> 00:15:38,761 muzak helps productivity on 213 00:15:38,801 --> 00:15:42,446 a factory floor. And 214 00:15:42,586 --> 00:15:46,887 yes, when I say the name to people, some 215 00:15:46,947 --> 00:15:51,628 think I've made a mistake. Do I mean Belsen? No, 216 00:15:51,688 --> 00:15:55,309 no, I don't mean Belsen. Belsen was another camp 217 00:15:55,449 --> 00:15:59,169 and there were no gas chambers there. But 218 00:15:59,209 --> 00:16:03,210 the reason that nobody's heard of Belzec is 219 00:16:03,250 --> 00:16:07,351 because it was small and highly effective death 220 00:16:07,411 --> 00:16:11,071 factory. It was small because 221 00:16:11,111 --> 00:16:19,474 people didn't go there to sleep. They went there to die. Half 222 00:16:19,514 --> 00:16:22,694 a million. Half a million is roughly like the 223 00:16:22,734 --> 00:16:26,095 population in Edinburgh, where I 224 00:16:26,155 --> 00:16:29,656 live. All murdered in 225 00:16:30,056 --> 00:16:33,577 10 months. If you do this calculation, that's 226 00:16:33,657 --> 00:16:37,318 like three per minute, three per daylight minute. 227 00:16:40,438 --> 00:16:43,779 Three per daylight minute. We would do well to 228 00:16:43,839 --> 00:16:47,000 remember that when tempted to apply the 229 00:16:47,080 --> 00:16:53,382 word genocide to today's situation. Anyway, 230 00:16:53,462 --> 00:16:57,223 the camp Belzec was dismantled and 231 00:16:57,303 --> 00:17:01,104 its use as a murder factory disguised in 232 00:17:03,705 --> 00:17:07,687 1943. All that was left were the bones, including 233 00:17:07,747 --> 00:17:10,920 those of my grandmother. and her 234 00:17:10,960 --> 00:17:14,782 foster child Romek, a little four-year-old boy 235 00:17:14,842 --> 00:17:21,426 that she had been looking after. It's 236 00:17:21,846 --> 00:17:25,408 unthinkable, but in my research, and 237 00:17:25,448 --> 00:17:30,611 there was so little to research, really, I 238 00:17:30,691 --> 00:17:34,453 repeatedly accompanied my grandmother 239 00:17:34,513 --> 00:17:38,135 and little Romic on that one-way journey. 240 00:17:45,323 --> 00:17:50,724 Turning back to page 150, you 241 00:17:50,764 --> 00:17:55,665 write thus, and I quote: "While 242 00:17:55,705 --> 00:17:59,806 she waited to be propelled onto the train, she 243 00:17:59,846 --> 00:18:03,206 did what she was always good at. She 244 00:18:03,386 --> 00:18:07,067 read the guard's faces. There 245 00:18:07,087 --> 00:18:10,787 were two of them, she thought, who looked more kindly 246 00:18:10,847 --> 00:18:14,068 than the others. She smiled at 247 00:18:14,128 --> 00:18:17,728 them and she thought she detected a flicker of 248 00:18:17,768 --> 00:18:21,169 response. She was almost 249 00:18:21,229 --> 00:18:25,091 on the steps of the train when a cart full of skeleton-like prisoners 250 00:18:25,191 --> 00:18:29,252 drew up. As the guards started 251 00:18:29,292 --> 00:18:33,294 to load this human cargo onto the train, the 252 00:18:33,354 --> 00:18:37,536 attention of the Gestapo men was diverted and 253 00:18:37,576 --> 00:18:41,517 in the commotion that followed the guards, unintentionally 254 00:18:41,737 --> 00:18:45,217 or maybe intentionally, let her slip 255 00:18:45,277 --> 00:18:49,699 through. Unnoticed, past 256 00:18:49,739 --> 00:18:53,081 her of David torn and discarded, she walked 257 00:18:53,161 --> 00:18:56,482 feigning confidence across the platform and slipped 258 00:18:56,622 --> 00:19:00,244 into the station cafeteria. But 259 00:19:00,264 --> 00:19:03,905 she was not entirely unobserved, because standing 260 00:19:04,045 --> 00:19:07,527 at the door was an elderly waitress who 261 00:19:07,587 --> 00:19:11,368 said to her softly in Polish, I 262 00:19:11,408 --> 00:19:15,259 know where you have come from. Discreetly, 263 00:19:15,559 --> 00:19:20,222 she led my mother into a dark corner of the cafe, placed 264 00:19:20,282 --> 00:19:23,544 a cup of coffee before her and 265 00:19:23,564 --> 00:19:27,406 a cigarette between her fingers. Then, 266 00:19:27,446 --> 00:19:30,809 lifting from her own neck a chain with 267 00:19:30,829 --> 00:19:35,131 a medallion of the Virgin Mary and the baby, she 268 00:19:35,171 --> 00:19:38,654 hung it on my mother's neck. Hold 269 00:19:39,034 --> 00:19:43,217 on to her tight, she said. She 270 00:19:43,257 --> 00:19:47,027 will save you. So, when 271 00:19:47,087 --> 00:19:50,648 the Gestapo came in, there she was, 272 00:19:51,748 --> 00:19:55,149 a saved Christian girl, a friend of 273 00:19:55,169 --> 00:20:00,229 the waitress." Please 274 00:20:00,309 --> 00:20:03,790 talk to us about the power of 275 00:20:03,850 --> 00:20:07,291 human love. And 276 00:20:07,351 --> 00:20:10,671 while you are at it, kindly talk to us about your 277 00:20:10,731 --> 00:20:13,992 mother's kindly German boss at 278 00:20:18,902 --> 00:20:22,144 Yes, so this is a really good 279 00:20:22,225 --> 00:20:25,367 news story because my mother survived. My 280 00:20:25,407 --> 00:20:28,709 grandmother didn't, but my mother survived, and this is how she 281 00:20:28,769 --> 00:20:32,432 survived. And this pivotal moment 282 00:20:32,532 --> 00:20:36,195 in my mother's story has stayed in 283 00:20:36,235 --> 00:20:39,597 my mother's mind and also my own as proof 284 00:20:40,238 --> 00:20:44,121 that goodness and humanity do and can exist 285 00:20:44,441 --> 00:20:49,506 even in the midst of hell. The 286 00:20:49,526 --> 00:20:54,109 waitress's act, kindness, humanity, 287 00:20:55,030 --> 00:20:58,132 probably gave her the strength to carry on in the 288 00:20:58,172 --> 00:21:02,675 dreadful days that followed this incident. So, 289 00:21:02,715 --> 00:21:05,957 the waitress was one honourable, good 290 00:21:06,097 --> 00:21:09,879 person to whom my mother owes her life. But 291 00:21:09,959 --> 00:21:13,242 the other person who was instrumental in enabling my 292 00:21:13,282 --> 00:21:18,941 mother's escape was her German boss. Her 293 00:21:18,981 --> 00:21:22,782 German boss was a Volksdeutscher, which 294 00:21:22,862 --> 00:21:26,303 means he was native German but 295 00:21:26,363 --> 00:21:29,503 living in Lwów. He spoke both German and 296 00:21:29,623 --> 00:21:33,024 Polish. His name was Dr. 297 00:21:33,064 --> 00:21:36,765 Bauer. And Dr. Bauer was the director 298 00:21:36,805 --> 00:21:40,885 of the glass factory where my mother worked. And 299 00:21:40,946 --> 00:21:45,912 he had always been very kind to my mother. Once 300 00:21:46,032 --> 00:21:49,274 when the Nazis came to the factory looking for 301 00:21:49,374 --> 00:21:52,676 her, looking for Jews, because very 302 00:21:52,776 --> 00:21:56,458 often Jews that were engaged in 303 00:21:57,999 --> 00:22:01,761 factories were winkled out 304 00:22:02,161 --> 00:22:05,903 on special days to perform some hard labour 305 00:22:06,043 --> 00:22:10,166 like scrubbing floors or something. Anyway, 306 00:22:13,729 --> 00:22:17,711 Dr. Bauer didn't know why 307 00:22:17,731 --> 00:22:21,872 they were looking for her, so he hid her in some packing 308 00:22:21,932 --> 00:22:25,054 cases. So, my mother knew that 309 00:22:25,294 --> 00:22:28,675 Dr. Bauer was a good man. And 310 00:22:28,735 --> 00:22:32,136 when she was rounded up by 311 00:22:32,156 --> 00:22:38,279 the Nazis on 10th of August, 1942, she 312 00:22:38,359 --> 00:22:42,000 thrust a note into the hands of a passing stranger. 313 00:22:43,435 --> 00:22:47,016 And on the note, she had written a message to Dr. Bauer. 314 00:22:47,756 --> 00:22:53,118 Please come and save me. I've been taken. Well, 315 00:22:53,318 --> 00:22:56,559 miraculously, the stranger delivered the 316 00:22:56,599 --> 00:23:00,120 note and Dr. Bauer did turn up at 317 00:23:00,180 --> 00:23:04,322 the railway station looking for her. In 318 00:23:04,362 --> 00:23:08,703 those days, Nazis, and he was meant to be one, 319 00:23:10,124 --> 00:23:13,682 wore their insignia on their uniforms, and 320 00:23:13,722 --> 00:23:19,066 there he was with all his Nazi insignia, parading 321 00:23:19,166 --> 00:23:23,629 up and down the street platform, 322 00:23:23,709 --> 00:23:26,992 looking for her, and he found her. And then he led 323 00:23:27,072 --> 00:23:31,355 her back to live to a safe house. Of 324 00:23:31,375 --> 00:23:34,617 course, both these people, the waitress and 325 00:23:34,657 --> 00:23:38,420 Dr. Bauer, the German boss, could 326 00:23:38,460 --> 00:23:43,044 have paid for their actions with their lives, And, 327 00:23:43,064 --> 00:23:47,347 what this story illustrates is that survival 328 00:23:48,087 --> 00:23:51,889 depended on random acts of kindness as 329 00:23:51,929 --> 00:23:55,351 well as happenstance luck. And of course, one 330 00:24:03,936 --> 00:24:07,538 On page 166 of the book, you 331 00:24:07,578 --> 00:24:11,020 write, and I quote: "The only 332 00:24:11,040 --> 00:24:14,723 story that remains from that particular train 333 00:24:14,783 --> 00:24:17,965 journey is of a child who screamed and 334 00:24:18,045 --> 00:24:21,888 screamed as children do, particularly when 335 00:24:21,928 --> 00:24:25,551 they are hungry. My 336 00:24:25,611 --> 00:24:28,933 mother's blouse had a breast pocket in 337 00:24:28,973 --> 00:24:32,956 which she had hidden a sugar cube. She 338 00:24:32,996 --> 00:24:36,559 took it out and offered it to the hungry child. 339 00:24:38,260 --> 00:24:41,688 I remember that story because that's how 340 00:24:41,768 --> 00:24:45,590 she was. Kind, always 341 00:24:45,670 --> 00:24:50,972 generous, always giving. My 342 00:24:51,132 --> 00:24:54,513 son, Martin, when he read this 343 00:24:54,653 --> 00:24:58,354 bit in draft form, said, yes, of 344 00:24:58,434 --> 00:25:01,935 course. Now I understand. That's 345 00:25:01,995 --> 00:25:05,837 why she always stole a few sugar cubes from cafe sugar 346 00:25:05,857 --> 00:25:13,386 bowls and stole them away for later." Maria, 347 00:25:14,347 --> 00:25:17,810 please tell us about your most treasured memories of 348 00:25:20,332 --> 00:25:24,055 Yes, I pinpointed that memory because 349 00:25:24,095 --> 00:25:27,738 she was always generous and warm and easily 350 00:25:27,818 --> 00:25:31,761 moved to tears by films and books. And 351 00:25:31,801 --> 00:25:35,024 by the way, my son Martin doesn't like that 352 00:25:35,144 --> 00:25:39,558 quote because of the word stole. But 353 00:25:39,618 --> 00:25:43,581 it would have been too long-winded to say she appropriated them 354 00:25:43,701 --> 00:25:47,764 because she had not used any when they were offered. So, 355 00:25:48,144 --> 00:25:53,629 well, she stole a few sugar cubes. But 356 00:25:54,629 --> 00:25:58,192 I suppose my most treasured memories of my mom were 357 00:25:58,212 --> 00:26:02,576 with my children and grandchildren because 358 00:26:11,697 --> 00:26:15,819 On page 216 of your book, you 359 00:26:15,859 --> 00:26:19,901 quote your mother when she wrote the following in her memoir, and 360 00:26:19,981 --> 00:26:23,963 I quote: "It was heartbreaking when 361 00:26:24,003 --> 00:26:27,365 a day came when I suddenly realized that my 362 00:26:27,425 --> 00:26:31,827 country does not want me anymore, that 363 00:26:31,887 --> 00:26:36,369 people look upon me as a foreigner. Ten years 364 00:26:36,569 --> 00:26:40,042 after the defeat of Hitler, ten years after 365 00:26:40,142 --> 00:26:44,885 six million Jews went into the gas chambers, a 366 00:26:44,925 --> 00:26:50,947 new wave of Nazism was sweeping the country. Now, 367 00:26:51,387 --> 00:26:56,529 most Poles, even those who were not anti-Semitic, expected 368 00:26:56,630 --> 00:27:01,051 us to leave. Friends and colleagues watched 369 00:27:01,111 --> 00:27:04,633 me with sympathy, but their eyes asked, 370 00:27:05,533 --> 00:27:09,077 why are you still here? Nobody ever 371 00:27:09,157 --> 00:27:12,458 said, why should you go? You 372 00:27:12,478 --> 00:27:17,180 belong here with us." Now, 373 00:27:18,360 --> 00:27:21,781 I don't mean to minimize the Holocaust, but 374 00:27:21,841 --> 00:27:25,702 if I may, let me play devil's advocate 375 00:27:25,742 --> 00:27:29,283 for a moment. The United 376 00:27:29,363 --> 00:27:34,165 Kingdom is having difficulty understanding immigration, which 377 00:27:34,285 --> 00:27:37,906 many may rightfully refer to as a 'Pandora's box' 378 00:27:38,955 --> 00:27:45,880 following the Brexit referendum result in 2016. Maria, 379 00:27:47,581 --> 00:27:53,065 why shouldn't a proud native Englishman, especially 380 00:27:53,085 --> 00:27:57,067 an Anglo-Saxon Englishman whose ancestry may 381 00:27:57,088 --> 00:28:02,551 be traced back thousands of years into history, exercise 382 00:28:02,591 --> 00:28:05,914 his democratic will to decide the fate of 383 00:28:06,274 --> 00:28:10,033 the unfortunate sojourners, people who 384 00:28:10,113 --> 00:28:13,634 simply don't fit. Why shouldn't 385 00:28:13,694 --> 00:28:17,275 a sojourner be sent back wherever his ancestors came 386 00:28:23,116 --> 00:28:27,017 Oh, devil's advocate indeed. Well, 387 00:28:27,037 --> 00:28:30,278 you know, we're all from Africa. Did you know 388 00:28:30,318 --> 00:28:33,398 that? 150,000 years ago, we 389 00:28:33,618 --> 00:28:38,635 all left Africa. Maybe we should all go back to Africa. Ah, 390 00:28:38,655 --> 00:28:45,477 I forgot, we can't, because it's getting to be too hot there. 391 00:28:46,558 --> 00:28:51,999 And while we're on Africa, what about Rwanda? We're 392 00:28:52,019 --> 00:28:55,540 told it's a nice place, and then in the next sentence we're 393 00:28:55,580 --> 00:28:58,881 told that Rwanda is to act as a deterrent. Well, 394 00:28:58,922 --> 00:29:05,904 if it's a nice place, how can it be a deterrent as well? Seriously, 395 00:29:07,512 --> 00:29:10,633 Of course, I 396 00:29:10,673 --> 00:29:14,014 was welcomed to this country as an immigrant, and 397 00:29:14,094 --> 00:29:22,017 I would like to welcome other immigrants. Human 398 00:29:22,117 --> 00:29:26,539 history is that of migration. Migration 399 00:29:26,619 --> 00:29:31,681 increases the all-important diversity, which 400 00:29:31,761 --> 00:29:36,137 serves as the raw material for adaptation. and 401 00:29:36,197 --> 00:29:40,459 diversity makes us, our communities, stronger. We 402 00:29:40,499 --> 00:29:43,820 don't really want all to bring the same skills to 403 00:29:43,860 --> 00:29:47,302 the party. We want different skills represented in 404 00:29:47,362 --> 00:29:51,283 the community. And 405 00:29:51,323 --> 00:29:55,445 in my experience, migrants are proud, resilient 406 00:29:56,125 --> 00:29:59,346 people with 407 00:29:59,607 --> 00:30:03,048 nous and experience to make the UK a better place. 408 00:30:05,994 --> 00:30:09,255 However, the trouble is, I think, as 409 00:30:09,315 --> 00:30:12,876 you mentioned, that the government, at 410 00:30:12,936 --> 00:30:16,397 least the British government, is sending negative messages about 411 00:30:16,477 --> 00:30:19,658 refugees. So, I fear that 412 00:30:19,758 --> 00:30:23,900 even those who have managed to get here legally will 413 00:30:23,940 --> 00:30:27,961 be treated, as you put it, as unfortunate sojourners 414 00:30:28,581 --> 00:30:32,102 in their new communities. And that's something 415 00:30:39,615 --> 00:30:43,537 The title of our podcast is "Genocide: Why 416 00:30:43,677 --> 00:30:48,919 it is important to bear witness." On 417 00:30:49,159 --> 00:30:54,061 October 7th, 2023, Palestinian 418 00:30:54,141 --> 00:30:57,943 militant groups led by Hamas launched 419 00:30:58,103 --> 00:31:01,745 a coordinated surprise terrorist attack on Israel, 420 00:31:02,985 --> 00:31:06,527 killing more than 1200 Israelis and foreigners. 421 00:31:09,673 --> 00:31:13,215 Many thousands of Palestinians have also 422 00:31:13,295 --> 00:31:16,977 perished since the start of the war between Israel and 423 00:31:17,057 --> 00:31:20,479 Hamas. On 424 00:31:20,579 --> 00:31:25,022 November 11, 2023, Professor 425 00:31:25,082 --> 00:31:28,824 Jason Stanley, a professor of philosophy 426 00:31:28,964 --> 00:31:32,606 at Yale University, published an opinion piece 427 00:31:32,726 --> 00:31:38,181 in The Guardian in which he wrote thus, and I quote: "To 428 00:31:38,221 --> 00:31:41,603 my fellow Jewish people, the 429 00:31:41,783 --> 00:31:46,025 actions of the State of Israel are being committed in 430 00:31:46,065 --> 00:31:50,708 the name of our preservation worldwide. It 431 00:31:50,828 --> 00:31:55,330 is incumbent on those of us who are Jewish to 432 00:31:55,410 --> 00:31:58,792 clearly and openly call for 433 00:31:58,952 --> 00:32:02,414 a halt to Israel's assault on Gaza. 434 00:32:05,156 --> 00:32:09,593 If we do not succeed in stopping the bombing, our 435 00:32:09,653 --> 00:32:12,955 children and grandchildren are at risk 436 00:32:13,115 --> 00:32:16,836 of inheriting a double identity, not 437 00:32:16,896 --> 00:32:21,598 just as targets of mass killings of civilians, but 438 00:32:21,758 --> 00:32:25,260 also as those who stood by when 439 00:32:25,360 --> 00:32:32,283 mass killings were committed in their names." Maria, 440 00:32:33,463 --> 00:32:36,965 how important is it to testify to 441 00:32:37,025 --> 00:32:41,753 the truth, in the context of a podcast theme? And 442 00:32:41,833 --> 00:32:45,214 what, in your opinion, will it take to break 443 00:32:45,314 --> 00:32:48,575 the logic of an eye for an eye, that 444 00:32:48,775 --> 00:32:52,756 is, beat swords into ploughshares in 445 00:32:52,776 --> 00:32:56,517 the context of the long-running conflict between Israeli Jews 446 00:33:01,319 --> 00:33:04,700 Well, you can be sure that nobody is committing mass killings 447 00:33:04,760 --> 00:33:08,002 in my name. Like 448 00:33:08,062 --> 00:33:11,644 Professor Stanley, and I have his report here, his 449 00:33:12,265 --> 00:33:16,087 article here, I want an immediate ceasefire 450 00:33:16,347 --> 00:33:20,349 and all the killings to stop. But 451 00:33:20,369 --> 00:33:23,651 I do understand that one person's day of 452 00:33:23,731 --> 00:33:27,353 independence is another person's Nakba day, 453 00:33:29,054 --> 00:33:32,596 and one person's terrorist is another person's freedom 454 00:33:32,656 --> 00:33:36,282 fighter. I get that. It's 455 00:33:36,322 --> 00:33:40,063 an impossible situation, initiated 456 00:33:40,163 --> 00:33:43,684 more than a hundred years ago, when one country 457 00:33:43,784 --> 00:33:49,645 promised another the land of a third. However, 458 00:33:49,985 --> 00:33:53,846 my book is not about Israel, but 459 00:33:53,906 --> 00:33:59,708 about the Holocaust, and the truth of the Holocaust should 460 00:33:59,748 --> 00:34:05,283 not be minimized by what's happening now. If 461 00:34:05,323 --> 00:34:08,704 the Holocaust was once seen to be the raison d'etre 462 00:34:09,024 --> 00:34:13,025 for Israel's existence. Now 463 00:34:13,125 --> 00:34:16,546 tomorrow, the 27th of January, we 464 00:34:16,626 --> 00:34:21,947 celebrate Holocaust Memorial Day in Britain. And 465 00:34:22,027 --> 00:34:26,288 it commemorates this year, the 79th anniversary 466 00:34:26,908 --> 00:34:30,329 of the liberation of Auschwitz. I 467 00:34:30,389 --> 00:34:33,490 first visited Auschwitz when I was nine years old. 468 00:34:34,758 --> 00:34:37,900 I was with my father. Nine is far too young to 469 00:34:37,940 --> 00:34:41,123 go to Auschwitz, by the way. I went with my 470 00:34:41,183 --> 00:34:44,885 father as a small child and I 471 00:34:44,905 --> 00:34:48,468 was overcome by the scale of it and 472 00:34:48,528 --> 00:34:52,290 by the effect that the visit was having on my father, who's first 473 00:34:52,751 --> 00:34:58,910 since he was a prisoner there. Anyway, 474 00:35:00,211 --> 00:35:03,671 tomorrow we have Holocaust Memorial Day, 475 00:35:03,712 --> 00:35:07,212 but round about the Holocaust Memorial Day, all this week 476 00:35:07,673 --> 00:35:11,574 and next, there've been a number of events connected 477 00:35:11,674 --> 00:35:14,835 with it in Edinburgh. I've been 478 00:35:14,875 --> 00:35:18,756 to a few at the Scottish Parliament and 479 00:35:18,996 --> 00:35:22,777 one at the university and one in the city chambers. And 480 00:35:22,817 --> 00:35:26,378 do you know, both Edinburgh 481 00:35:26,418 --> 00:35:29,624 Council and the university have 482 00:35:29,724 --> 00:35:33,586 vetoed this year any banners or posters about 483 00:35:33,706 --> 00:35:37,128 it. I suppose they're 484 00:35:37,168 --> 00:35:41,010 scared that there'd be graffiti or 485 00:35:41,110 --> 00:35:44,852 defaced or incite 486 00:35:44,952 --> 00:35:48,774 protest, but I'm devastated 487 00:35:48,874 --> 00:35:52,095 to see that the Holocaust, which is so 488 00:35:52,176 --> 00:35:55,917 important to know about, is now losing 489 00:36:04,825 --> 00:36:08,187 What's one piece of advice you can share with 490 00:36:12,669 --> 00:36:16,312 Well, it's a long one. As Primo Levi, 491 00:36:16,332 --> 00:36:20,394 the Auschwitz survivor and Nobel laureate said, it 492 00:36:20,494 --> 00:36:25,115 happened, therefore it can happen again. So, 493 00:36:25,195 --> 00:36:28,936 I think the take-home message from my family's story and 494 00:36:28,996 --> 00:36:33,097 my book is that both the victims and 495 00:36:33,137 --> 00:36:36,858 the perpetrators were ordinary people. My 496 00:36:36,918 --> 00:36:40,819 mother tended to think about people in a dichotomous 497 00:36:40,919 --> 00:36:44,920 way, good and bad, victim-survivor. I 498 00:36:44,980 --> 00:36:49,501 don't. I adopt this sort of shades-of-grey philosophy. 499 00:36:51,341 --> 00:36:55,268 During the war, when times were hard, Poles denounced 500 00:36:55,408 --> 00:36:58,990 Jews, Ukrainians denounced Jews, even 501 00:36:59,071 --> 00:37:02,513 Jews denounced Jews. Good 502 00:37:02,593 --> 00:37:06,116 people are capable of bad acts when times 503 00:37:06,216 --> 00:37:09,778 are hard. Remember that if you denounced 504 00:37:09,878 --> 00:37:13,381 a Jew, if you denounced a 505 00:37:13,421 --> 00:37:16,703 Jew, you got a reward of money sometimes or 506 00:37:16,783 --> 00:37:19,926 food or both, which would allow you to 507 00:37:19,986 --> 00:37:23,248 feed your own family for another week, another month, 508 00:37:24,163 --> 00:37:28,106 It's worth it. When times are hard, and 509 00:37:28,186 --> 00:37:32,270 unfortunately, I think hard times are coming by 510 00:37:32,310 --> 00:37:35,713 a combination of environmental degradation and 511 00:37:35,833 --> 00:37:39,536 overpopulation and climate change, we're 512 00:37:39,576 --> 00:37:43,259 going to be facing hard times. And 513 00:37:43,339 --> 00:37:47,442 as resources are depleted, there'll be more wars and 514 00:37:47,502 --> 00:37:51,186 bad things happen when human nature is challenged 515 00:37:51,606 --> 00:37:54,956 with difficult times. So, 516 00:37:55,576 --> 00:38:00,298 I don't feel terribly optimistic. I 517 00:38:00,358 --> 00:38:03,619 know that for you, Stephen, faith has 518 00:38:03,679 --> 00:38:07,380 helped you throughout your life. I maybe don't have 519 00:38:08,120 --> 00:38:11,321 that. I don't have what Dawkins would call a gene for 520 00:38:11,381 --> 00:38:14,782 God, or maybe it is that God died 521 00:38:14,842 --> 00:38:18,003 in Auschwitz. I don't know. But what 522 00:38:18,023 --> 00:38:21,244 I've always done is I've always tried to instill in 523 00:38:21,284 --> 00:38:24,673 my children and my students a sense of 524 00:38:25,013 --> 00:38:28,775 awe, a sense of awe and wonder in 525 00:38:28,795 --> 00:38:32,237 the living world. And I also 526 00:38:33,177 --> 00:38:36,859 taught them the golden rule, which is to treat others as 527 00:38:36,899 --> 00:38:41,782 you would want to be treated yourself, and 528 00:38:41,822 --> 00:38:47,564 to abhor discrimination of any sort on 529 00:38:47,624 --> 00:38:51,655 race and religion. Because 530 00:38:51,875 --> 00:38:54,978 as a biologist, as I've already said, I 531 00:38:55,078 --> 00:38:59,461 celebrate diversity within and between species. That 532 00:38:59,501 --> 00:39:02,923 sense of awe is what keeps me going. And 533 00:39:03,083 --> 00:39:06,225 our species, you know, Homo sapiens, you know what it means? It 534 00:39:06,265 --> 00:39:09,548 means the wise guy. Homo sapiens, the wise guy. 535 00:39:10,909 --> 00:39:14,711 Would not have been able to adapt to changing climates, new 536 00:39:14,771 --> 00:39:20,095 diseases, if we had not been diverse. So, 537 00:39:21,924 --> 00:39:25,247 we need to stay wise. Thank you. 538 00:39:27,969 --> 00:39:31,512 And finally, Maria, please advise our listeners where 539 00:39:35,856 --> 00:39:39,079 Well, you can order it from any bookshop. It 540 00:39:39,219 --> 00:39:42,422 might take a while to come. Or you can 541 00:39:42,502 --> 00:39:46,085 order it from Amazon. And if you've got Amazon Prime, 542 00:39:46,125 --> 00:39:49,294 it comes tomorrow. If 543 00:39:49,354 --> 00:39:52,555 all fails, if all else fails, email me. You can 544 00:39:58,636 --> 00:40:01,877 Dr. Maria Chamberlain, thank you very much for 545 00:40:05,917 --> 00:40:09,078 Thank you very much, Stephen. It's been an 546 00:40:14,779 --> 00:40:18,360 This podcast was brought to you by The Kamugasa Challenge 547 00:40:19,244 --> 00:40:23,467 in partnership with Democracy in Africa. Democracy 548 00:40:23,507 --> 00:40:27,290 in Africa is a platform dedicated to building a bridge between 549 00:40:27,450 --> 00:40:31,494 academics, policymakers, practitioners, and 550 00:40:31,614 --> 00:40:35,096 citizens. The second episode 551 00:40:35,176 --> 00:40:39,260 is entitled, Why Genocide is the Responsibility of 552 00:40:39,300 --> 00:40:42,562 the Entire World, an interview with 553 00:40:42,622 --> 00:40:46,285 Dr. Omar McDoom, a comparative political 554 00:40:46,345 --> 00:40:49,544 scientist and associate professor at 555 00:40:49,564 --> 00:40:53,666 the London School of Economics Department of Government. The 556 00:40:53,706 --> 00:41:00,028 podcast will go live on April 8th, 2024. If 557 00:41:00,148 --> 00:41:03,330 you enjoyed this podcast, please support us by 558 00:41:03,450 --> 00:41:08,092 subscribing to Conversations with Stephen Kamugasa through 559 00:41:08,112 --> 00:41:12,013 your favourite podcast app. Thank 560 00:41:12,053 --> 00:41:16,675 you very much for taking the time to listen to this podcast. Until 561 00:41:16,695 --> 00:41:20,272 next time, Goodbye.