1 00:00:00,100 --> 00:00:04,021 But the limitations with, like, writing a book is 2 00:00:04,022 --> 00:00:06,860 that, like, the reader doesn't speak the language. 3 00:00:07,150 --> 00:00:08,820 So it is meaningless to them. 4 00:00:09,140 --> 00:00:12,820 And so they will, in most cases, right, they're just going to skim. 5 00:00:12,840 --> 00:00:15,520 Like, if you're reading and then you have something that's in, like, those italic 6 00:00:15,521 --> 00:00:18,820 other language, you know, gibbly bits, whatever, they're going to be like, 7 00:00:18,880 --> 00:00:21,840 I don't know what that means, skim it, and then go to the next line, right? 8 00:00:22,332 --> 00:00:24,332 [Music] 9 00:00:39,420 --> 00:00:42,538 Welcome to Conlangery, the podcast about constructed 10 00:00:42,539 --> 00:00:44,680 languages and the people who create them. 11 00:00:44,960 --> 00:00:45,960 I'm George Corley. 12 00:00:46,940 --> 00:00:54,341 And with me over in Maryland is Madeline James of the Madeline James Writes channel. 13 00:00:56,380 --> 00:01:02,271 And we're here to talk with you, Madeline, about... 14 00:01:02,272 --> 00:01:06,640 you are just recently sort of getting into conlanging. 15 00:01:08,040 --> 00:01:09,040 Yeah. 16 00:01:09,260 --> 00:01:12,980 So Madeline's channel has a lot of world building stuff. 17 00:01:15,320 --> 00:01:19,517 And you do great tutorials about building 18 00:01:19,518 --> 00:01:23,560 geology and planets and also cultures and stuff. 19 00:01:23,770 --> 00:01:31,000 But you just, like, I believe with your streams, what you were doing is you 20 00:01:31,001 --> 00:01:33,460 started out doing just naming languages, right? 21 00:01:33,620 --> 00:01:34,620 Yeah. 22 00:01:34,820 --> 00:01:37,843 And then recently... 23 00:01:38,040 --> 00:01:41,676 You started to do a language for spellcasting. 24 00:01:41,720 --> 00:01:48,820 But you don't... you're not doing the same thing like I do when I do spellcasting 25 00:01:48,845 --> 00:01:52,599 languages, where I make a language, and then 26 00:01:52,624 --> 00:01:57,740 I make it for... and then I do incantations. 27 00:01:57,760 --> 00:02:00,200 But you're, like, sort of going from the opposite end. 28 00:02:00,890 --> 00:02:08,015 I want to talk to you about, like, how did you discover, like, conlanging and. 29 00:02:08,056 --> 00:02:10,930 And how did you... how did... how did that come 30 00:02:10,931 --> 00:02:13,220 into your, like, broader world building stuff? 31 00:02:13,520 --> 00:02:14,960 And how were you introduced to that? 32 00:02:16,600 --> 00:02:17,080 Yeah. 33 00:02:17,140 --> 00:02:21,680 So, I mean, I guess it all starts because as a fantasy writer, you have to build 34 00:02:21,830 --> 00:02:24,164 your fantasy worlds, which all the stuff on my 35 00:02:24,165 --> 00:02:27,305 channel is adjacent to that or part of that process. 36 00:02:28,560 --> 00:02:35,380 But I sort of started by when you have a fantasy society or fantasy kingdom world, 37 00:02:35,500 --> 00:02:38,020 whatever, and you want to pick some sort of... 38 00:02:38,040 --> 00:02:42,276 consistent, like, naming for people and places. 39 00:02:42,585 --> 00:02:47,535 And it all started with that and sort of picking inspirational 40 00:02:47,536 --> 00:02:50,280 places around the world to kind of base the names off of. 41 00:02:50,390 --> 00:02:54,340 So, like, one of the earlier projects I have that I started with that I'm going to 42 00:02:54,341 --> 00:03:01,151 redo the naming for now, but all my names were based off Croatian origins. 43 00:03:01,590 --> 00:03:04,760 And so you'll see a lot that have, like... What are the big ones right now? 44 00:03:04,761 --> 00:03:06,920 Like, Celtic is a really big one right now. 45 00:03:07,040 --> 00:03:10,580 A lot of people don't... A lot of people don't do, like, Latin-based things. 46 00:03:10,780 --> 00:03:13,706 Like, you take sources. 47 00:03:14,180 --> 00:03:19,500 But as I started to learn more about it and learn more about, I guess, 48 00:03:19,670 --> 00:03:25,640 the way names originate at all, like, there's a lot of meaning packed into that. 49 00:03:25,740 --> 00:03:29,521 And there's a lot of, like, if you're not a native speaker of the language, 50 00:03:29,600 --> 00:03:31,540 like, you won't pick up on things that you're potentially 51 00:03:31,564 --> 00:03:34,600 using that could be problematic or just wouldn't make sense. 52 00:03:35,530 --> 00:03:37,989 And it's a missed opportunity. 53 00:03:38,040 --> 00:03:40,420 In my opinion, to be very intentional about those things. 54 00:03:40,940 --> 00:03:46,320 So I started learning how to do naming languages where you're, you know, 55 00:03:46,820 --> 00:03:52,380 start with a base, like, you know, phonology and you go through and just 56 00:03:52,381 --> 00:03:56,360 build out, like, what those names would look like to give them a cohesive, 57 00:03:56,480 --> 00:04:00,640 like, look and feel while not being entirely modern. 58 00:04:00,940 --> 00:04:03,560 And so they don't have that, like, where it pushes you out of it, 59 00:04:03,580 --> 00:04:07,960 where you're in this, like, you know, medieval-esque fantasy world. 60 00:04:08,040 --> 00:04:10,940 And someone's named, like, Sally or something like that, right? 61 00:04:11,020 --> 00:04:12,920 Like, things that fit in the world. 62 00:04:12,960 --> 00:04:17,600 And then that sort of tumbled me down on an eventual path that led me to actual, 63 00:04:17,720 --> 00:04:20,120 like, closer to real conlanging. 64 00:04:20,428 --> 00:04:22,256 (laugh) 65 00:04:22,280 --> 00:04:23,280 Closer. 66 00:04:23,440 --> 00:04:24,960 We'll talk about that. 67 00:04:26,720 --> 00:04:27,720 So... 68 00:04:31,520 --> 00:04:35,520 When I hear naming language, I have a certain thing in mind, because this is a 69 00:04:35,521 --> 00:04:37,921 thing that has been talked about in the conlanging community. 70 00:04:38,410 --> 00:04:44,725 For a while, it's like a, I think it's a category on the 71 00:04:44,765 --> 00:04:47,661 LCS jobs board is, like, getting just a naming language. 72 00:04:47,685 --> 00:04:52,860 But tell me about what a naming language means to you. 73 00:04:53,320 --> 00:04:54,940 What are you looking for? 74 00:04:55,630 --> 00:04:59,960 What are you trying to develop in order to get that baseline to get consistent names? 75 00:05:01,500 --> 00:05:05,274 So the main thing that I do for, at least how I do naming 76 00:05:05,374 --> 00:05:07,660 languages for, which are, again, all from my books. 77 00:05:08,040 --> 00:05:08,140 Right? 78 00:05:08,410 --> 00:05:12,640 So I don't use IPA at all, just because... 79 00:05:13,690 --> 00:05:15,163 -I mean, maybe one day I'll be, like, super -Hurts me 80 00:05:15,188 --> 00:05:17,100 -famous and my books will be, like, in a movie. -That hurts me. 81 00:05:17,101 --> 00:05:17,220 That hurts me. 82 00:05:17,300 --> 00:05:18,980 And then I'll care how they're pronounced. 83 00:05:19,040 --> 00:05:23,133 But for the most part, I just, everything is just default 84 00:05:23,134 --> 00:05:25,501 how a generic English speaker would pronounce things. 85 00:05:25,660 --> 00:05:30,320 And so it's mostly which letters or, like, sounds I include. 86 00:05:30,860 --> 00:05:32,640 I do a lot with... 87 00:05:33,555 --> 00:05:35,510 And I guess this is one of the differences for me with 88 00:05:35,534 --> 00:05:37,880 doing a naming language for, like, a book versus... 89 00:05:38,040 --> 00:05:40,200 like, probably a more general naming language. 90 00:05:40,640 --> 00:05:44,140 But you only have a few examples in a book, right? 91 00:05:44,200 --> 00:05:48,360 Like, you'll have maybe a few dozen names, whether it's people's names, place names. 92 00:05:49,330 --> 00:05:51,140 So I try and really make them very distinct. 93 00:05:51,580 --> 00:05:53,540 So I'll pick certain sounds, a lot of rules. 94 00:05:53,780 --> 00:05:56,700 I'll cut a lot of things out in terms of the sounds. 95 00:05:59,050 --> 00:06:01,586 And then I'll come up with, I guess, probably a lot of 96 00:06:01,666 --> 00:06:06,340 structure for, like, the number of syllables in a name. 97 00:06:06,460 --> 00:06:08,020 I'll do, like, percentages of, like... 98 00:06:08,040 --> 00:06:15,480 Okay, this country or this group's names tend to be, like, two syllables and they 99 00:06:15,481 --> 00:06:21,180 tend to be, you know, very short, like, CVC or, like, CVCV, something like 100 00:06:21,181 --> 00:06:24,040 that that's very condensed and one will be longer. 101 00:06:24,140 --> 00:06:28,300 Like, just playing a lot more on the differences of it. 102 00:06:28,490 --> 00:06:31,620 And I don't get into roots or meaning of names. 103 00:06:31,920 --> 00:06:33,840 I'll do that for place names very simply. 104 00:06:33,880 --> 00:06:38,020 But the names themselves are mostly just to have, like... 105 00:06:38,040 --> 00:06:44,540 Like, an aesthetic that appeals to both, like, differentiating different cultural 106 00:06:44,541 --> 00:06:48,500 groups and different, like, national groups in my books. 107 00:06:48,520 --> 00:06:52,600 And also for having, I guess, like, an aesthetic feel that kind of matches 108 00:06:52,601 --> 00:06:55,140 what I'm trying to portray from, like, a societal level. 109 00:06:56,090 --> 00:06:59,000 And then, like, extra bits and bobs, like, if there's different, like, 110 00:06:59,670 --> 00:07:02,271 titles or ways to address people or, like, 111 00:07:02,272 --> 00:07:04,900 that sort of thing that wouldn't be translated. 112 00:07:05,040 --> 00:07:07,720 Like, if you assume the book was in that language. 113 00:07:08,040 --> 00:07:10,260 Originally, but then translated into English. 114 00:07:11,160 --> 00:07:14,260 Some of those things that would, like, linger, I'll come up with. 115 00:07:15,030 --> 00:07:18,177 Normally, like, titles or addresses if there's different, 116 00:07:18,178 --> 00:07:20,560 like, your lord and lady equivalent or whatnot. 117 00:07:21,540 --> 00:07:22,540 Yeah. 118 00:07:23,570 --> 00:07:29,660 I will say, like, I interjected because you said you don't use IPA. 119 00:07:29,945 --> 00:07:30,945 I was like, that hurts. 120 00:07:31,020 --> 00:07:33,100 Because of me as a phonetician. 121 00:07:33,140 --> 00:07:35,520 But watching your streams. 122 00:07:35,760 --> 00:07:38,020 It's not like you are not... 123 00:07:38,190 --> 00:07:41,860 using any, like, phonological theory at all. 124 00:07:42,215 --> 00:07:47,000 You know, you have learned, you know, all of the stuff. 125 00:07:47,180 --> 00:07:50,600 And you make, like, a phoneme chart like we would recognize. 126 00:07:51,035 --> 00:07:55,047 But you are specifically targeting, like, English 127 00:07:55,048 --> 00:07:57,920 speakers and how they would tend to pronounce things. 128 00:07:58,080 --> 00:08:00,220 Which, it's... 129 00:08:01,280 --> 00:08:03,340 I approach from the other direction. 130 00:08:04,245 --> 00:08:07,680 But I think there are some ideas that I have. 131 00:08:08,040 --> 00:08:14,500 With constructing, like, my languages for D&D that are similar. 132 00:08:14,660 --> 00:08:16,280 Which we could talk about. 133 00:08:16,870 --> 00:08:22,620 But in terms of, like, how I choose to romanize things. 134 00:08:23,280 --> 00:08:25,360 And what distinctions I choose to put in. 135 00:08:26,065 --> 00:08:28,820 But going back. 136 00:08:30,220 --> 00:08:36,280 So, you say that you consider meaning more for geographic terms. 137 00:08:36,500 --> 00:08:37,260 Mm-hmm. 138 00:08:37,261 --> 00:08:38,496 Than for... 139 00:08:40,270 --> 00:08:41,270 For personal names. 140 00:08:41,440 --> 00:08:41,860 Yeah. 141 00:08:42,300 --> 00:08:42,740 Do... 142 00:08:43,260 --> 00:08:44,260 Like... 143 00:08:45,020 --> 00:08:47,881 Why... Why is that exactly? 144 00:08:48,365 --> 00:08:51,920 It's mostly just from a patterning perspective for me. 145 00:08:52,360 --> 00:08:54,400 So, like, with naming people. 146 00:08:54,660 --> 00:08:56,694 Like, I mean, I guess if it became a thing 147 00:08:56,695 --> 00:08:58,800 where I wanted there to be, like, a plot point. 148 00:08:58,940 --> 00:09:01,660 Or something where someone's name is significant. 149 00:09:01,680 --> 00:09:03,520 Like, the meaning of their name is significant. 150 00:09:04,400 --> 00:09:06,340 Because, like, I watch a lot of, like... 151 00:09:07,380 --> 00:09:08,000 I guess... 152 00:09:08,020 --> 00:09:11,480 I guess, like, historical, like, K-dramas and C-dramas and stuff like that. 153 00:09:11,520 --> 00:09:12,520 And they're, like... 154 00:09:12,900 --> 00:09:15,200 It tends to be, like, a little story point. 155 00:09:15,300 --> 00:09:17,660 Like, what the main character's name is and stuff like that. 156 00:09:18,790 --> 00:09:20,316 But that's not something I've ever used. 157 00:09:20,340 --> 00:09:24,440 If I did something like that, then I might think harder about what the names mean. 158 00:09:24,600 --> 00:09:27,160 But usually it's just what you call a person. 159 00:09:27,530 --> 00:09:31,580 Whereas, like, with place names, people might pick up on patterns. 160 00:09:32,055 --> 00:09:34,580 Like, if they were looking at a map, they'd be like, oh, 161 00:09:34,581 --> 00:09:36,736 this place that's a mountain and this place has a mountain. 162 00:09:36,760 --> 00:09:38,363 And has, like, a similar... 163 00:09:38,620 --> 00:09:39,820 pieces in it, right? 164 00:09:39,850 --> 00:09:45,500 Where those might mean something like hills or mountains or place of great heights. 165 00:09:45,680 --> 00:09:49,620 You know, where you could pick up on those similarities and gain meaning. 166 00:09:49,995 --> 00:09:53,453 Whereas, I don't expect readers to ever pick up on 167 00:09:53,553 --> 00:09:56,100 similar things or similar bits and character names. 168 00:09:56,180 --> 00:09:58,326 And be like, oh, yes, they must have some sort of 169 00:09:58,351 --> 00:10:02,300 philosophical similarity or something between it. 170 00:10:02,380 --> 00:10:02,660 You know? 171 00:10:03,210 --> 00:10:04,210 I mean, yeah. 172 00:10:04,440 --> 00:10:08,000 Place names, like... If you drill down the etymology... 173 00:10:08,020 --> 00:10:13,180 The etymologies of place names, often they are quite, like, boring and on the nose. 174 00:10:13,660 --> 00:10:14,880 The big mountain. 175 00:10:15,060 --> 00:10:15,620 Right. 176 00:10:15,720 --> 00:10:16,720 The snowy mountains. 177 00:10:16,780 --> 00:10:17,320 Right. 178 00:10:17,321 --> 00:10:18,321 The other big mountain. 179 00:10:18,800 --> 00:10:20,720 The long river, things like that. 180 00:10:20,980 --> 00:10:23,840 But I find it interesting. 181 00:10:24,020 --> 00:10:27,100 You talk about K-dramas and C-dramas. 182 00:10:27,101 --> 00:10:31,600 You're talking about them using significant meanings to names. 183 00:10:31,825 --> 00:10:37,600 Those are cultures, also, that are more likely to have transparent names. 184 00:10:38,660 --> 00:10:44,440 Like, straight up, like, if I think of my Chinese friends and I look at the 185 00:10:44,441 --> 00:10:46,460 characters, I can know what their name means. 186 00:10:46,670 --> 00:10:48,520 My wife's name means beautiful. 187 00:10:48,660 --> 00:10:50,040 All that kind of thing. 188 00:10:50,480 --> 00:10:53,340 Which is, it happens in English, but it's not as common. 189 00:10:53,655 --> 00:10:56,115 We have a lot of, like, historical names 190 00:10:56,116 --> 00:11:00,061 that, like, there's an etymology for my name. 191 00:11:00,520 --> 00:11:02,080 And there's an etymology for your name. 192 00:11:02,350 --> 00:11:06,120 But nobody ever thinks about it when they're naming their child that. 193 00:11:07,180 --> 00:11:16,160 And I think there's an interesting sort of cultural thing to talk about in that. 194 00:11:16,290 --> 00:11:20,382 Because, like, maybe the people who speak your 195 00:11:20,383 --> 00:11:24,281 conlangs might have more transparent names than we do. 196 00:11:24,620 --> 00:11:28,208 But the audience that you're reading is used to 197 00:11:28,209 --> 00:11:31,841 just taking a name as another word to memorize. 198 00:11:32,020 --> 00:11:32,320 Right? 199 00:11:32,480 --> 00:11:33,080 Right. 200 00:11:33,140 --> 00:11:33,700 Exactly. 201 00:11:33,920 --> 00:11:36,200 So, like, if I wanted that to be, like... 202 00:11:36,990 --> 00:11:37,980 You know, because it depends on what... 203 00:11:37,981 --> 00:11:39,944 It depends on what you want to focus on where, you 204 00:11:39,945 --> 00:11:42,200 know, cultures are obviously incredibly complicated. 205 00:11:42,805 --> 00:11:46,800 But just like worldbuilding in general, like, when you're portraying a society and 206 00:11:46,975 --> 00:11:50,160 a culture, you have to kind of pick and choose what to include in the book. 207 00:11:50,290 --> 00:11:52,103 Because, like, you can't just throw everything 208 00:11:52,104 --> 00:11:53,620 out there because it would be overwhelming. 209 00:11:53,760 --> 00:11:55,156 They wouldn't latch on to anything. 210 00:11:55,180 --> 00:11:56,180 Like, it's just... 211 00:11:56,660 --> 00:11:58,220 That's where you get into info dumping. 212 00:11:58,980 --> 00:12:01,420 So I like to choose specific pieces to really 213 00:12:01,500 --> 00:12:04,140 focus on and have it, like, feel immersive. 214 00:12:04,320 --> 00:12:05,720 Even if it's not, like, everything. 215 00:12:06,390 --> 00:12:07,960 So I'm sure at some point I'll do... 216 00:12:07,980 --> 00:12:10,940 And especially as I expand my understanding 217 00:12:10,941 --> 00:12:13,701 of ways names can work in a culture and stuff. 218 00:12:14,880 --> 00:12:19,060 But where that would be a point where that would come up and that would actually be 219 00:12:19,061 --> 00:12:23,140 shown whether or not it actually is and is just, like, hidden through the filter of, 220 00:12:23,320 --> 00:12:25,600 like, it being written in a book, you know? 221 00:12:28,666 --> 00:12:34,836 Another piece of that is, like, how much do you 222 00:12:34,856 --> 00:12:37,960 get into, on the one hand, like, naming things? 223 00:12:37,961 --> 00:12:42,130 Like, naming conventions, like, whether there are surnames or patronyms or whatever. 224 00:12:42,580 --> 00:12:45,280 And also, do you do any... 225 00:12:46,240 --> 00:12:48,080 How much do you do, like, morphology? 226 00:12:48,180 --> 00:12:51,240 I guess for place names you kind of do need some morphosyntax stuff. 227 00:12:51,485 --> 00:12:57,800 But personal names can depend on the language whether there's anything, right? 228 00:12:59,580 --> 00:13:03,540 Yeah, so it kind of... It's been very different for me for every project. 229 00:13:03,600 --> 00:13:07,100 And again, like, I'm still, like, the most, like, preschool... 230 00:13:08,110 --> 00:13:10,460 Naming language, conlanger, whatever you want to call it. 231 00:13:10,480 --> 00:13:14,040 Like, I'm still very much learning everything. 232 00:13:14,360 --> 00:13:17,220 But so far, every project has been very different for me. 233 00:13:17,530 --> 00:13:23,381 And it depends a lot on how much opportunity I have to portray things in the book. 234 00:13:23,460 --> 00:13:28,220 So, for example, one of the big projects I'm working on, the one where the spell 235 00:13:28,221 --> 00:13:30,260 language that I'm making is part of that project. 236 00:13:31,030 --> 00:13:33,600 I also have three other naming languages in there. 237 00:13:34,470 --> 00:13:37,500 And so, two of them are mostly just for side characters. 238 00:13:37,501 --> 00:13:42,600 Because there's a few people from different, like, different countries that 239 00:13:42,601 --> 00:13:45,480 would have a different sort of naming feel to them. 240 00:13:46,220 --> 00:13:48,400 So, I've built out just enough of their culture. 241 00:13:48,500 --> 00:13:51,362 Like, I think one of the names, it's just 242 00:13:51,363 --> 00:13:53,480 straight up, like, it's, like, a couple syllables. 243 00:13:53,640 --> 00:13:54,920 It's a very strict pattern. 244 00:13:55,600 --> 00:13:58,660 There is... It's a very limited set of, like, sounds. 245 00:13:58,760 --> 00:14:01,160 And then it's, like, they're... 246 00:14:02,760 --> 00:14:07,400 It's, like, they have a different naming surname pattern for if they... 247 00:14:07,401 --> 00:14:10,500 They are from one of the, like, jungle cities versus one of the, 248 00:14:10,710 --> 00:14:11,340 like, coastal cities. 249 00:14:11,615 --> 00:14:15,260 Because that's a big societal differentiation in their culture. 250 00:14:15,400 --> 00:14:19,680 So, like, I put that as, like, a distinctive thing in their, like, surnames. 251 00:14:19,845 --> 00:14:23,300 But other than that, it's just, like, there's nothing complicated about it. 252 00:14:23,360 --> 00:14:29,141 It's just straight generation of, like, base syllables that just get stuck together. 253 00:14:29,240 --> 00:14:30,240 And then... 254 00:14:30,800 --> 00:14:33,196 Because, like, there's only going to be, like, four or five names. 255 00:14:33,220 --> 00:14:35,100 And they'll never get explained in depth. 256 00:14:35,260 --> 00:14:36,620 So, it's, like, a little bit of... 257 00:14:37,400 --> 00:14:38,400 Something. 258 00:14:39,720 --> 00:14:42,760 But then... For the other ones, I'll get more complicated. 259 00:14:43,120 --> 00:14:44,120 I have... 260 00:14:44,820 --> 00:14:45,380 I don't know. 261 00:14:45,400 --> 00:14:48,900 I use a program when I do this that I've written that has a lot of rules to make 262 00:14:49,025 --> 00:14:51,940 things sound more, like, English pronounceable. 263 00:14:51,980 --> 00:14:53,420 So, like, there's a lot of... 264 00:14:54,280 --> 00:14:55,280 Oh, what are they called? 265 00:14:55,340 --> 00:14:57,880 Like, when you have the multiple vowels, the diphthongs? 266 00:14:58,440 --> 00:14:58,840 Yeah. 267 00:14:59,350 --> 00:15:01,390 Yeah, like, different diphthongs that I don't allow. 268 00:15:01,820 --> 00:15:06,120 Different, like, consonant clusters that I won't allow when syllables are merged. 269 00:15:06,260 --> 00:15:07,260 Like... 270 00:15:07,400 --> 00:15:09,520 Not quite, like, sandhi-level things. 271 00:15:09,740 --> 00:15:11,360 But, like, really basic stuff that I just... 272 00:15:11,361 --> 00:15:14,780 I toss anything that ends up being generated with that in it. 273 00:15:15,820 --> 00:15:20,440 But then my, like, more complicated ones that I have a lot of, like, things being 274 00:15:20,441 --> 00:15:22,500 generated in it and I need it to be less strict. 275 00:15:22,675 --> 00:15:26,200 Then I have some general rules that I'll apply to, 276 00:15:26,201 --> 00:15:28,680 like, when I'm compounding and stuff like that. 277 00:15:28,700 --> 00:15:30,560 That'll tweak it a little bit to make it work. 278 00:15:30,990 --> 00:15:34,800 But most of it is really basic and it's just straight generate a syllable, 279 00:15:35,040 --> 00:15:36,060 generate two syllables. 280 00:15:36,390 --> 00:15:39,373 Sometimes there's different rules for, like, if it's 281 00:15:39,453 --> 00:15:41,640 a starting versus, like, an ending syllable. 282 00:15:41,790 --> 00:15:45,300 Like, if there's certain letters or sounds that aren't allowed, then it will handle 283 00:15:45,301 --> 00:15:48,740 that in the generators and all that based off how many syllables the name will have. 284 00:15:50,290 --> 00:15:53,680 And your program is an interesting thing. 285 00:15:53,820 --> 00:15:55,900 You keep saying it's just for you. 286 00:15:56,145 --> 00:15:59,060 But, like, a lot of conlangers have... 287 00:15:59,410 --> 00:16:04,365 Who have some programming expertise have come up with 288 00:16:04,465 --> 00:16:07,400 some kind of program that assists other conlangers. 289 00:16:07,580 --> 00:16:11,061 Do you think you would ever, like, build a generator that 290 00:16:11,062 --> 00:16:16,440 other people would be more, like, useful for other people? 291 00:16:18,200 --> 00:16:20,600 I've had a lot of people ask about that. 292 00:16:20,715 --> 00:16:25,120 It is something that I would potentially consider in the future for just the very 293 00:16:25,121 --> 00:16:30,160 strict naming language part of it because that's all very reusable. 294 00:16:31,930 --> 00:16:33,806 I would have to do a lot of changes because, like, I have a 295 00:16:33,807 --> 00:16:37,573 lot of rules that are just baked into, like, what I find... 296 00:16:38,120 --> 00:16:40,700 pronounceable in general and also, like, I don't use IPA. 297 00:16:40,820 --> 00:16:42,760 So, like, you would have to... 298 00:16:42,761 --> 00:16:48,400 Like, I will have representations of, like, CH is, like, one letter or one sound 299 00:16:48,401 --> 00:16:55,560 in my program because, like, with IPA, like, CH is, like, that's a sound versus, 300 00:16:55,580 --> 00:16:58,660 like... Like, I make some of those differentiations. 301 00:16:58,840 --> 00:17:03,966 But a lot of it, like, I feel like if people were actually doing it, they'd, like. 302 00:17:04,430 --> 00:17:09,666 It's just so strict in how I do it to make it make sense for me that I'm not sure if 303 00:17:09,690 --> 00:17:14,180 tons of people would be interested in it and also, like, all the stuff that I do 304 00:17:14,181 --> 00:17:17,520 for, like, the spell language where I actually have, like, grammatical 305 00:17:17,745 --> 00:17:19,420 structures and stuff like that in it. 306 00:17:19,440 --> 00:17:21,140 None of that's in, like, the base program. 307 00:17:21,880 --> 00:17:23,480 So, if I... I don't know. 308 00:17:23,560 --> 00:17:27,680 And I'd also need a UI because I just, like, I hit the run button and it vomits 309 00:17:27,681 --> 00:17:29,336 everything out that I want in the terminal. 310 00:17:29,360 --> 00:17:35,520 So, like, it's very far away from ever being usable by someone who isn't a Java 311 00:17:35,521 --> 00:17:38,220 programmer with my... exact same goals. 312 00:17:38,740 --> 00:17:44,160 But it's something I'm considering to one day, like, people could check it out at 313 00:17:44,161 --> 00:17:46,281 GitLab or something, you know, if they really want to. 314 00:17:47,240 --> 00:17:48,160 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 315 00:17:48,260 --> 00:17:51,900 It probably would need some more customizability and some more, yeah. 316 00:17:52,060 --> 00:17:52,520 Yes. 317 00:17:52,695 --> 00:17:57,740 But that's a good segue to the next topic is... 318 00:17:58,240 --> 00:18:00,160 So, you started out with just naming languages. 319 00:18:01,350 --> 00:18:05,940 Now, you have done a spell language. 320 00:18:06,700 --> 00:18:07,700 Yes. 321 00:18:08,360 --> 00:18:14,600 And can you tell me about your approach to creating a spell language? 322 00:18:16,260 --> 00:18:23,780 So, my big project and, like, the goals of the book are important here where I... 323 00:18:24,620 --> 00:18:25,140 It's... 324 00:18:25,340 --> 00:18:27,940 I kind of call it, like, Six of Crows, but for nerds. 325 00:18:28,140 --> 00:18:29,220 And so, I... 326 00:18:29,620 --> 00:18:33,760 It's sort of, like, an excuse for me to really dive into the, like, world building 327 00:18:33,761 --> 00:18:36,680 magic system linguistic stuff of this world. 328 00:18:36,681 --> 00:18:38,480 Because it's very plot relevant. 329 00:18:39,480 --> 00:18:42,380 So, I have, like, one of my characters is a linguist. 330 00:18:42,470 --> 00:18:44,580 One is, you know, a witch or a spellcaster. 331 00:18:44,840 --> 00:18:45,840 One's an alchemist. 332 00:18:46,040 --> 00:18:50,640 Like, they have different specialties that they're, like, super, you know, 333 00:18:51,040 --> 00:18:52,100 super great at. 334 00:18:52,425 --> 00:18:55,203 And one of the things they have to do is they have 335 00:18:55,204 --> 00:18:59,160 these grimoires that have codified spells in them. 336 00:18:59,620 --> 00:19:03,420 And the only way to, you know, complete the heist that they're trying to 337 00:19:03,421 --> 00:19:06,640 do at the end of the book is to translate enough of this text to... 338 00:19:07,490 --> 00:19:10,800 Basically figure out, like, what spells were originally used, what spells can they 339 00:19:10,801 --> 00:19:14,980 use to then, you know, break past this, you know, whatever. 340 00:19:15,780 --> 00:19:22,300 And so, I knew that I needed to, like, since translation is an active part 341 00:19:22,301 --> 00:19:26,280 in the plot of the book, and also in figuring out, like, there's obviously 342 00:19:26,281 --> 00:19:30,275 going to be mistakes, things they do wrong, things they use incorrectly. 343 00:19:30,735 --> 00:19:33,181 So, I wanted to create an actual spell language 344 00:19:33,206 --> 00:19:36,140 where you're seeing the spells that people are using. 345 00:19:36,220 --> 00:19:36,660 You're hearing them. 346 00:19:36,661 --> 00:19:38,956 You're hearing the pieces, and you're seeing them in the book. 347 00:19:38,980 --> 00:19:41,820 And I wanted them to be small enough that people could look at them and, 348 00:19:42,100 --> 00:19:45,460 like, maybe pick up on some patterns and maybe sort of see, like, oh, like, 349 00:19:45,500 --> 00:19:49,290 I understand why that didn't do what they thought it was going to do. 350 00:19:49,795 --> 00:19:51,340 And also just for me to understand. 351 00:19:52,057 --> 00:19:53,916 (laugh) 352 00:19:53,940 --> 00:19:56,315 Like, I have to have very rigid structures in 353 00:19:56,316 --> 00:19:58,440 everything that I do from a magic perspective. 354 00:19:58,640 --> 00:20:03,860 So, like, I have a whole chemistry system for my potions in that book just because I 355 00:20:03,861 --> 00:20:06,020 need to understand, like, how to do everything. 356 00:20:06,785 --> 00:20:08,280 If the reader never understands it. 357 00:20:09,880 --> 00:20:13,105 So, I kind of just started for the spells with, like, I wanted 358 00:20:13,165 --> 00:20:16,280 it to be able to, like, not be these super long sentences. 359 00:20:16,380 --> 00:20:20,880 Like, I wanted it to be, like, short little things that people could pick 360 00:20:20,881 --> 00:20:23,999 up on patterns a little bit more easily, but would also lend 361 00:20:24,000 --> 00:20:27,083 itself towards having a lot of mistakes and translations. 362 00:20:28,960 --> 00:20:32,060 So, that's sort of, like, the goal that it started with of, like, you know, 363 00:20:32,061 --> 00:20:36,420 you would have the spirit name that you're commanding or asking to do something. 364 00:20:36,810 --> 00:20:39,811 You have your command clause and then you have 365 00:20:39,812 --> 00:20:42,780 the spell, like, of what you're asking them to do. 366 00:20:43,700 --> 00:20:47,200 And then, so, very early on when I was chatting about it with the people in my 367 00:20:47,201 --> 00:20:50,420 Discord, they were like, oh, you should look into, like, polysynthetic languages 368 00:20:50,421 --> 00:20:52,778 because that would sort of fit that scheme of 369 00:20:52,779 --> 00:20:55,000 how I wanted it to be presented in the book. 370 00:20:55,610 --> 00:20:59,580 So, then I, like, watched some videos on that and then, like, from there I just 371 00:20:59,581 --> 00:21:02,420 sort of worked with these, like, like, I basically built, like, 372 00:21:02,440 --> 00:21:06,440 a formula almost and started expanding, like, you know. 373 00:21:06,660 --> 00:21:09,460 So, like, you know, saying something like burn that tree is pretty simple compared 374 00:21:09,461 --> 00:21:13,940 to, like, oh, I want you to, you know, water all the plants in this greenhouse 375 00:21:13,941 --> 00:21:16,340 until, you know, the plants are happy, right? 376 00:21:16,380 --> 00:21:18,180 Like, very different levels. 377 00:21:18,240 --> 00:21:22,960 And I've sort of been building up the, I guess, like, sentence or grammatical 378 00:21:22,961 --> 00:21:27,840 complexity so I can have some of those more complicated spells in it within the 379 00:21:28,065 --> 00:21:29,705 frame of, like, a polysynthetic language. 380 00:21:30,620 --> 00:21:31,620 Oh, okay. 381 00:21:32,360 --> 00:21:36,031 Yeah, so, that is interesting. 382 00:21:36,660 --> 00:21:43,720 I found that when, at least in the intro stream that you did that for that, 383 00:21:43,820 --> 00:21:47,919 it was interesting that you were talking about, like, 384 00:21:47,920 --> 00:21:50,881 this very formulaic structure that you just outlined. 385 00:21:51,060 --> 00:21:51,520 Yeah. 386 00:21:51,560 --> 00:21:56,420 And you were just going to be, like, I'm just going to stick to building 387 00:21:56,421 --> 00:22:00,900 out the structures that I need for this formula. 388 00:22:01,200 --> 00:22:02,200 Mm-hmm. 389 00:22:02,640 --> 00:22:06,640 And, like, saying, like, you need some kind... 390 00:22:06,660 --> 00:22:11,980 Kind of, like, imperative form because of this and such stuff like that. 391 00:22:12,760 --> 00:22:18,680 Whereas, like, I kind of did talk about what structures were important at the 392 00:22:18,730 --> 00:22:20,960 beginning of my, like, Tongues and Runes streams. 393 00:22:21,230 --> 00:22:26,720 But I ended up creating full languages, like, I created a whole Draconic language 394 00:22:26,895 --> 00:22:28,500 before I started making spells. 395 00:22:29,560 --> 00:22:31,680 And I just want to talk about, like... 396 00:22:34,245 --> 00:22:35,340 It is interesting... 397 00:22:36,710 --> 00:22:38,540 That you have this, like, spell formula. 398 00:22:38,860 --> 00:22:39,860 Mm-hmm. 399 00:22:42,080 --> 00:22:44,280 That's two pieces to this. 400 00:22:44,960 --> 00:22:49,857 First thing is, like, do you find times when that sort 401 00:22:49,858 --> 00:22:54,520 of, like, rigid structure has been limiting to you? 402 00:22:56,870 --> 00:23:01,907 And also, have you run into times when it's you 403 00:23:01,908 --> 00:23:05,560 unexpectedly needed more structure than you thought you did? 404 00:23:05,820 --> 00:23:06,820 Mm-hmm. 405 00:23:07,800 --> 00:23:13,140 So, for this project, and, you know, I don't know if, like, what the cause and 406 00:23:13,141 --> 00:23:16,100 effect was, like, what came first, chicken or the egg, whatever. 407 00:23:16,485 --> 00:23:21,740 But the use case and the relevancy of the language in my book is very, very... 408 00:23:22,290 --> 00:23:23,720 It is very formulaic. 409 00:23:23,820 --> 00:23:24,820 Like, it is... 410 00:23:25,050 --> 00:23:26,610 It is not a language that people speak. 411 00:23:26,875 --> 00:23:30,880 It is not a language that any modern person in my book is fluent in. 412 00:23:31,000 --> 00:23:34,340 It's something that, you know, there's a group of people way back when 413 00:23:34,341 --> 00:23:36,460 that used to understand it and wrote these grimoires. 414 00:23:36,500 --> 00:23:36,640 Mm-hmm. 415 00:23:36,660 --> 00:23:42,280 But for the most part, it's the only language that can basically be heard by spirits. 416 00:23:42,460 --> 00:23:44,360 But the spirits don't talk back to you. 417 00:23:44,420 --> 00:23:45,420 There's no, like... 418 00:23:46,830 --> 00:23:50,511 There's no other way for this language to really be used 419 00:23:50,512 --> 00:23:53,940 within the context of my book than literally just these spells. 420 00:23:54,870 --> 00:24:00,000 I could, like, create something where it could be relevant, but, like, it's not... 421 00:24:00,050 --> 00:24:01,700 It doesn't make any sense for my plot. 422 00:24:02,100 --> 00:24:04,520 So, that already was very, very limited. 423 00:24:05,280 --> 00:24:06,280 Um... 424 00:24:06,450 --> 00:24:08,731 And also, like, again, I joked about this, 425 00:24:08,732 --> 00:24:10,820 but, like, I'm the preschooler of conlangers. 426 00:24:10,960 --> 00:24:15,900 Like, this was a very much, like, a baby step of just, you know, 427 00:24:16,100 --> 00:24:17,100 trying to expand... 428 00:24:17,101 --> 00:24:18,883 Like, going from naming languages to something that has 429 00:24:18,884 --> 00:24:23,360 literally any grammar at all, like, is a huge leap for me. 430 00:24:23,705 --> 00:24:26,920 So, like, I've been trying to, like, really take it slow and kind of 431 00:24:26,970 --> 00:24:28,720 expand things out so that I understand them. 432 00:24:30,000 --> 00:24:33,960 Like, the idea of making a full conlang is, like, so overwhelming to me. 433 00:24:34,000 --> 00:24:35,080 Like, I know I've gotten... 434 00:24:35,600 --> 00:24:36,360 Like, my... 435 00:24:36,361 --> 00:24:38,844 At this point now, my spell language has, like, a lot of 436 00:24:38,845 --> 00:24:41,240 stuff in it, but it definitely isn't a full conlang yet. 437 00:24:42,280 --> 00:24:43,860 But I've sort of... 438 00:24:44,990 --> 00:24:47,256 I guess I've been doing it, like, with the baby steps, right? 439 00:24:47,280 --> 00:24:50,160 Like, where you mentioned, like, running into things where you need more. 440 00:24:51,330 --> 00:24:55,301 And there's nothing in my formula that 441 00:24:55,302 --> 00:24:59,981 necessarily makes it not possible to expand it. 442 00:25:00,780 --> 00:25:04,763 So, I've found that, like, I mostly do it on streams. 443 00:25:04,881 --> 00:25:08,220 With a lot of people on my stream that actually know things about language, 444 00:25:08,660 --> 00:25:10,560 which is really necessary. 445 00:25:10,680 --> 00:25:13,000 But every time I've needed to go, like... 446 00:25:13,100 --> 00:25:14,980 Like, I started with those really simple spells. 447 00:25:15,080 --> 00:25:19,380 And when I've added more complicated ones, like ones with conditional clauses or, 448 00:25:19,460 --> 00:25:26,020 like, futurist... Future, like, clauses to end the spell state. 449 00:25:26,520 --> 00:25:28,760 Like, stuff like that where it's gotten more complicated. 450 00:25:28,860 --> 00:25:33,720 I've just sort of been expanding it bit by bit and adding how, like... 451 00:25:34,170 --> 00:25:34,780 Like, the framework... 452 00:25:34,781 --> 00:25:38,900 The frameworks I have are there, like, for how the language would work. 453 00:25:39,005 --> 00:25:42,680 It's just I haven't developed those other parts of it or how it would fit into it. 454 00:25:42,910 --> 00:25:46,060 So, like, it hasn't necessarily been limiting. 455 00:25:46,500 --> 00:25:50,600 I just have to, as I need to do another thing, I have to then figure out, 456 00:25:50,680 --> 00:25:52,640 okay, like, how am I actually going to do that? 457 00:25:52,720 --> 00:25:55,939 Like, I know it's head final and I know that because 458 00:25:55,979 --> 00:25:58,316 it's polysynthetic, these types of things group together. 459 00:25:58,340 --> 00:26:02,260 So, like, even though it's a different type of clause, these determiners get 460 00:26:02,435 --> 00:26:04,660 pulled in with the verb parts. 461 00:26:04,780 --> 00:26:08,740 And, like, I can reuse the rules I have to expand it. 462 00:26:08,780 --> 00:26:09,200 It just... 463 00:26:09,650 --> 00:26:11,530 I kind of have to take it with those baby steps. 464 00:26:11,895 --> 00:26:15,090 But it hasn't, like... I haven't ran into anything that I'm like, well, dang. 465 00:26:15,660 --> 00:26:17,836 I can't... You know, this is insurmountable. 466 00:26:17,860 --> 00:26:20,055 I started out too limited. 467 00:26:21,205 --> 00:26:22,205 I haven't ran into that. 468 00:26:25,260 --> 00:26:33,260 It is interesting to hear your perspective as someone who is a writer first. 469 00:26:33,943 --> 00:26:38,360 And then decided to do conlangs just for what you needed. 470 00:26:38,580 --> 00:26:39,180 Yeah. 471 00:26:39,340 --> 00:26:44,280 Because for me, like, conlanging is my art form. 472 00:26:44,820 --> 00:26:48,820 And then I have tried to put it into novels, but it's, you know... 473 00:26:49,580 --> 00:26:50,580 Yeah, it's hard. 474 00:26:50,660 --> 00:26:51,880 It hasn't... 475 00:26:53,900 --> 00:26:55,680 I haven't published anything about that yet. 476 00:26:55,740 --> 00:27:04,640 And now I am making conlangs on YouTube and trying to put them out there for people. 477 00:27:04,641 --> 00:27:06,800 For people to use in D&D campaigns. 478 00:27:09,360 --> 00:27:14,336 So, it's interesting to see your perspective and saying, okay, well, 479 00:27:14,620 --> 00:27:23,421 really, I just have a very strictly defined structure that I want to work with. 480 00:27:25,960 --> 00:27:30,940 And that's where I'm going to live for the rest of the project. 481 00:27:31,290 --> 00:27:32,500 Whereas for me, like... 482 00:27:33,220 --> 00:27:35,675 But I mean, I want to... 483 00:27:35,768 --> 00:27:41,600 It may be also down to different styles for the spells you're writing. 484 00:27:41,780 --> 00:27:48,360 Because you had at the outset a formula in mind that all spells would follow. 485 00:27:48,750 --> 00:27:54,900 Whereas for me, it's like I have general ideas of what kinds of statements, 486 00:27:55,060 --> 00:27:59,060 what kinds of phrases will be there. 487 00:27:59,300 --> 00:28:02,218 But I build out a whole language and build out some 488 00:28:02,258 --> 00:28:08,006 poetry conventions in order to, like, accomodate what I might need. 489 00:28:08,225 --> 00:28:13,043 So, it's interesting to see that different approach. 490 00:28:14,700 --> 00:28:20,072 Can you tell me more about the interaction with the 491 00:28:20,073 --> 00:28:23,900 chat and how you are learning some things from them? 492 00:28:24,050 --> 00:28:25,480 Like, can you come up... 493 00:28:25,530 --> 00:28:29,940 Can you give me some more, like, specific instances of where you had a 494 00:28:30,090 --> 00:28:34,460 question and someone knew something that you... 495 00:28:34,640 --> 00:28:35,640 You need to know? 496 00:28:35,715 --> 00:28:37,275 Because I have that experience as well. 497 00:28:37,666 --> 00:28:38,186 Yeah. 498 00:28:38,420 --> 00:28:43,300 Like, I'm trying to build some, like, not based on Celtic language, 499 00:28:43,340 --> 00:28:45,860 but callbacks to Celtic languages in my current language. 500 00:28:46,250 --> 00:28:49,880 And I got a couple of people here and there that actually speak Celtic 501 00:28:49,881 --> 00:28:53,420 languages, which is useful because I don't. 502 00:28:53,940 --> 00:28:59,180 So, like, for you, what are some, like, specific examples of things where 503 00:28:59,181 --> 00:29:03,700 you had a question and someone delivered information that helped you along? 504 00:29:04,860 --> 00:29:05,340 Yeah. 505 00:29:05,420 --> 00:29:10,140 So, I mean, I will say that probably, like, a very large percentage of this 506 00:29:10,141 --> 00:29:14,856 stuff has come from the chat from some way or another. 507 00:29:15,270 --> 00:29:20,840 But the way it'll typically go is I have, like, an idea of what I need to do, right? 508 00:29:20,995 --> 00:29:25,060 So, maybe I'm like, okay, we need to make... figure out how to actually create 509 00:29:25,260 --> 00:29:31,700 the verb roots of my, like, verb chunks or verb clauses or whatever. 510 00:29:32,440 --> 00:29:34,140 And so, I'm like, okay, well, you know... 511 00:29:34,740 --> 00:29:38,500 I need to find a way to, like, how do I want to do this? 512 00:29:38,645 --> 00:29:43,020 Do I want to have specific words that encompass every verb? 513 00:29:43,140 --> 00:29:46,765 Do I want to have, like, something more where I 514 00:29:46,790 --> 00:29:49,260 have, like, roots that then get turned into verbs? 515 00:29:49,680 --> 00:29:53,753 And I was leaning towards wanting to have, 516 00:29:53,754 --> 00:29:57,900 more restricted, like, base roots to it. 517 00:29:57,960 --> 00:30:01,080 So, someone was like, oh, like, what if you just have, you know, 518 00:30:01,081 --> 00:30:04,260 a bunch of things, then you use verbalizing suffixes... 519 00:30:04,640 --> 00:30:06,840 to actually turn all of these words into verbs? 520 00:30:07,010 --> 00:30:08,056 And I'm like, oh, that's cool. 521 00:30:08,080 --> 00:30:09,080 And, like, I googled it. 522 00:30:09,250 --> 00:30:11,290 And I'm like, yeah, that fits what I'm trying to do. 523 00:30:11,390 --> 00:30:12,630 So, we started setting them up. 524 00:30:12,700 --> 00:30:14,258 People were throwing out ideas of, like, oh, 525 00:30:14,259 --> 00:30:16,621 like, what if you have this kind of a verbalizer? 526 00:30:16,940 --> 00:30:20,100 And what are you going to do if it's already a verb and you can't, like... 527 00:30:20,400 --> 00:30:22,620 Like, I had some examples that we would try to, like... 528 00:30:23,110 --> 00:30:25,236 Things that I wanted to be able to translate at the end. 529 00:30:25,260 --> 00:30:28,840 And one of them was, like, stir this potion, right? 530 00:30:28,920 --> 00:30:29,920 This liquid. 531 00:30:30,050 --> 00:30:31,096 And so, I'm like, well, stir. 532 00:30:31,120 --> 00:30:34,520 Like, how would I verbalize a noun? 533 00:30:34,640 --> 00:30:36,720 A basic noun to make a verb out of that? 534 00:30:36,800 --> 00:30:40,380 And they're like, well, okay, you need a base verbalizing suffix that just is, 535 00:30:40,440 --> 00:30:42,280 like, a default if the word is already a verb. 536 00:30:44,290 --> 00:30:45,908 And so, it was just very much a lot of back 537 00:30:45,933 --> 00:30:49,221 and forth of, like, I know sort of what I want. 538 00:30:49,810 --> 00:30:52,500 But I have no idea linguistically how to accomplish that. 539 00:30:53,550 --> 00:30:55,611 And so, everyone in the chat would, like, point out 540 00:30:55,691 --> 00:30:57,600 ideas of, like, oh, like, here are some options. 541 00:30:57,700 --> 00:31:00,540 And then I'd think through, like, these are the spells I want to create. 542 00:31:00,580 --> 00:31:01,580 Do I need that? 543 00:31:01,620 --> 00:31:03,820 Can I use something I already have for that? 544 00:31:05,065 --> 00:31:08,200 And they're basically count as, like, like, if a person actually knows 545 00:31:08,201 --> 00:31:12,600 stuff, you know, and has ideas, that the chat is my brain. 546 00:31:12,640 --> 00:31:14,280 And I'm just, like, making the decisions. 547 00:31:15,780 --> 00:31:16,700 Because I know nothing. 548 00:31:16,780 --> 00:31:19,040 Like, I know nothing. 549 00:31:19,172 --> 00:31:20,606 (laugh) 550 00:31:20,630 --> 00:31:22,360 But surely you're learning some things. 551 00:31:23,000 --> 00:31:24,200 Yeah, I'm definitely learning. 552 00:31:24,300 --> 00:31:25,500 Like, I'm learning a lot. 553 00:31:25,730 --> 00:31:29,860 I definitely, like, grammatically, linguistically understand my spell 554 00:31:29,861 --> 00:31:33,780 language a lot more than I do, like, English, for example. 555 00:31:33,781 --> 00:31:38,900 But the way I think, and this is why I think I'm a very unlikely conlanger in 556 00:31:38,901 --> 00:31:43,140 general, but, like, I don't memorize things very well, and I don't make, 557 00:31:43,905 --> 00:31:46,880 like, connections between things very well, and I think it's, like, I have, 558 00:31:47,055 --> 00:31:51,480 like, ADD or whatever, so, like, my brain just doesn't do that very well, 559 00:31:51,840 --> 00:31:58,620 so, like, learning language in general for me has always been very, what's the term, 560 00:31:58,840 --> 00:32:02,200 like, intrinsic versus extrinsic, like, where I don't learn it through rules. 561 00:32:02,320 --> 00:32:03,700 So, like, I really struggle. 562 00:32:03,701 --> 00:32:06,016 I really struggle during, like, language classes growing up, but, 563 00:32:06,040 --> 00:32:09,540 like, in the cases where I had to actually communicate with people in other 564 00:32:09,541 --> 00:32:12,960 languages, like, I picked up languages a lot faster that way, or I picked it up 565 00:32:12,961 --> 00:32:18,000 from reading, but, like, so, like, it's definitely been a struggle for me, 566 00:32:18,260 --> 00:32:23,160 but that's why, a part of why on my streams I have, like, that big PowerPoint 567 00:32:23,161 --> 00:32:27,040 where everything's super documented, and everything in my program is a lot 568 00:32:27,041 --> 00:32:31,640 more, like, rigid and documented than it probably needs to be, and that's just 569 00:32:31,641 --> 00:32:33,726 because I will forget the second I move to another language. 570 00:32:33,750 --> 00:32:36,320 So, like, I'm like, what did we, what did we decide there? 571 00:32:36,440 --> 00:32:39,900 Like, my chat has to remind me constantly that I'm, like, head final versus, 572 00:32:40,700 --> 00:32:44,920 you know, head initial or whatever, and I'm like, crap, what is this again? 573 00:32:44,960 --> 00:32:46,520 Everyone's like, it's head final. 574 00:32:46,720 --> 00:32:47,340 You're good. 575 00:32:47,460 --> 00:32:48,200 Just keep going. 576 00:32:48,320 --> 00:32:49,480 And I'm like, oh, okay, okay. 577 00:32:49,540 --> 00:32:51,020 Like, I just, I don't know. 578 00:32:51,665 --> 00:32:52,860 My memory's not great. 579 00:32:53,055 --> 00:32:55,885 So, like, it's slow, slow going, but... 580 00:32:55,910 --> 00:32:56,881 Yeah, yeah. 581 00:32:57,590 --> 00:32:58,980 And that is interesting. 582 00:32:59,160 --> 00:33:02,000 I mean, but the thing is... 583 00:33:04,020 --> 00:33:07,120 Whether you do on head initial or head final, that seems like a basic thing, 584 00:33:07,180 --> 00:33:10,140 but there are a lot of moving parts to creating a language. 585 00:33:10,411 --> 00:33:21,440 Even if you are trying to be, even if you are trying to minimize your effort and do 586 00:33:21,590 --> 00:33:24,620 this, there's still going to be a lot of stuff. 587 00:33:24,740 --> 00:33:27,780 Because, I mean, how many spells are you working with here? 588 00:33:29,040 --> 00:33:31,540 Um, I mean, I haven't created that many. 589 00:33:31,600 --> 00:33:34,635 I probably have a couple dozen that I've actually created. 590 00:33:34,995 --> 00:33:39,707 But the, the way I'm building it, like, the actual... 591 00:33:39,708 --> 00:33:43,220 I have a differentiation between the, like, grammatical words. 592 00:33:43,780 --> 00:33:45,676 There's, like, a term for this, but I can't remember what it is. 593 00:33:45,700 --> 00:33:47,491 My chat taught me it at some point, and I forgot. 594 00:33:47,515 --> 00:33:53,440 But, like, the grammatical words versus the, like, root words, you know? 595 00:33:53,480 --> 00:33:55,980 Like, my base nouns and my base verbs. 596 00:33:56,040 --> 00:33:59,860 Like, those, like, that part of the lexicon is pretty basic right now, 597 00:33:59,861 --> 00:34:02,360 just because I haven't had to build a lot of things out. 598 00:34:02,960 --> 00:34:03,360 But... 599 00:34:03,700 --> 00:34:08,040 I have all the, most of the grammatical part of it all developed and figured out. 600 00:34:08,080 --> 00:34:12,440 So, like, with just generating a word for, like, tree, I could make, you know, 601 00:34:12,640 --> 00:34:15,120 tons more spells because I have all the other building blocks. 602 00:34:16,080 --> 00:34:17,586 Right, right, right. 603 00:34:18,210 --> 00:34:24,500 But that is, that is quite a lot of work, a lot, a lot of things to build, 604 00:34:24,690 --> 00:34:26,451 and there's a lot of things to keep track of. 605 00:34:27,000 --> 00:34:33,440 And, you know, even, like, experienced conlangers can forget about... 606 00:34:33,800 --> 00:34:34,960 How things work. 607 00:34:35,110 --> 00:34:42,880 You talk to David and Jesse, and they're, they talk about how important it is to 608 00:34:42,881 --> 00:34:48,200 have good documentation, because they have had situations where they've forgotten 609 00:34:48,201 --> 00:34:53,240 things, especially David, because he's, he's a little bit less organized. 610 00:34:53,460 --> 00:34:54,460 Yeah. 611 00:34:54,520 --> 00:35:01,120 And, you know, if I were to leave a language alone for a while and come back 612 00:35:01,270 --> 00:35:06,882 to it, I might struggle with certain aspects of it, you know, like, 613 00:35:06,906 --> 00:35:09,280 I go back to Ndăkaga, if I, 614 00:35:09,630 --> 00:35:14,160 if I took, like, a year off of it, and I come back to it, even though I know 615 00:35:14,161 --> 00:35:20,140 how it works, like, the tripartite cases, I'd go in there, and, like, "What do I use, 616 00:35:20,370 --> 00:35:22,380 accusative or nominative here? 617 00:35:22,560 --> 00:35:23,560 I'm not sure." 618 00:35:23,740 --> 00:35:24,740 Things like that. 619 00:35:25,823 --> 00:35:31,440 So, it is, it is interesting that you've got sort of the second brain in chat, 620 00:35:32,410 --> 00:35:34,383 and they are helping you through it 621 00:35:36,195 --> 00:35:44,020 I will ask, do you think in the future that you might develop to a point where 622 00:35:44,021 --> 00:35:50,540 you want to create a full language that maybe you introduce some dialogue into 623 00:35:50,541 --> 00:35:53,360 your book, and you want the, want the full language for that? 624 00:35:54,200 --> 00:35:56,356 So, I think, I think it depends. 625 00:35:56,500 --> 00:36:00,216 And I think, again, I think it's all very story specific. 626 00:36:00,520 --> 00:36:03,680 I imagine that all the different parts. 627 00:36:03,975 --> 00:36:06,729 Parts of a language I will create at some point, 628 00:36:06,730 --> 00:36:09,721 whether or not they're in the same language or not. 629 00:36:10,620 --> 00:36:17,580 But like one of the things that I've, I've thought about with, like if I was 630 00:36:17,581 --> 00:36:20,680 having like a story where there was like, you know, two political groups and there 631 00:36:20,681 --> 00:36:22,353 was a lot of interactions and like one of the plot 632 00:36:22,354 --> 00:36:25,340 things is that they don't speak the same language, right? 633 00:36:25,341 --> 00:36:31,780 Like where it would actually be relevant to have someone be talked at in another 634 00:36:31,781 --> 00:36:33,980 language that they don't necessarily understand. 635 00:36:34,100 --> 00:36:37,980 Like, I could see having to develop like a full conlang for that. 636 00:36:38,390 --> 00:36:44,300 But the, the limitations with like writing a book is that like the reader doesn't 637 00:36:44,400 --> 00:36:45,140 speak the language. 638 00:36:45,400 --> 00:36:47,120 So it is meaningless to them. 639 00:36:47,420 --> 00:36:51,120 And so they will, in most cases, right, they're just going to skim. 640 00:36:51,140 --> 00:36:52,737 Like if you're reading and then you have something 641 00:36:52,738 --> 00:36:55,280 that's in like those italic other language, you know... 642 00:36:55,820 --> 00:36:58,166 Gibbely bits, whatever, they're going to be like, I don't know what that means, 643 00:36:58,190 --> 00:36:59,951 skim it, and then go to the next line, right? 644 00:37:00,740 --> 00:37:05,660 Whereas, like, you can do it like in a limited way, right? 645 00:37:05,740 --> 00:37:07,427 But like, someone's not going to like, read a book and 646 00:37:07,428 --> 00:37:09,980 be sitting there and being like, how do I pronounce that? 647 00:37:10,240 --> 00:37:11,020 What does that mean? 648 00:37:11,140 --> 00:37:12,580 Like, if it's in another language. 649 00:37:14,420 --> 00:37:18,681 So I've, I don't know if I would ever find a case for 650 00:37:18,682 --> 00:37:21,841 like a full, like 100% full conlang would be relevant. 651 00:37:22,190 --> 00:37:25,320 I would think that it'd be most likely if I end up doing that. 652 00:37:25,340 --> 00:37:27,820 Like, what do they call them? 653 00:37:27,840 --> 00:37:32,460 But like a universe where you have a lot of stories that are set in a larger 654 00:37:32,461 --> 00:37:36,700 universe, like the Grishaverse, the Cosmere, like in those cases, 655 00:37:36,720 --> 00:37:40,880 if I had a language that was going to be used throughout a lot of things, 656 00:37:41,400 --> 00:37:43,736 then I could see creating a full conlang because I 657 00:37:43,836 --> 00:37:46,260 use it in different little bits and pieces everywhere. 658 00:37:47,060 --> 00:37:50,400 But all the books I've done so far, like single books, maybe duologies, 659 00:37:50,420 --> 00:37:53,453 where I'm not going to have a lot of opportunities to 660 00:37:53,478 --> 00:37:56,020 reuse a language in different ways. 661 00:37:56,120 --> 00:37:59,174 So it's like, however, it's, it's relevant to use 662 00:37:59,175 --> 00:38:02,140 it in this is kind of been the limitation so far. 663 00:38:02,780 --> 00:38:03,780 Yeah. 664 00:38:04,020 --> 00:38:05,801 So that that is interesting. 665 00:38:05,826 --> 00:38:14,420 And that is something that I have thought about in terms of like, where, 666 00:38:14,520 --> 00:38:18,226 where, where in media would, would there be more of a 667 00:38:18,251 --> 00:38:24,260 demand for like a language sketch versus a larger conlang? 668 00:38:24,520 --> 00:38:25,520 And it. 669 00:38:25,840 --> 00:38:32,980 It does sort of the, the, the idea of how much you're going to spend time with this 670 00:38:32,981 --> 00:38:39,820 particular culture fits into it, you go with, you go with something like 671 00:38:39,821 --> 00:38:46,720 Star Wars, and Star Wars has not had a bad, not had a great record for languages, 672 00:38:46,790 --> 00:38:53,040 the way that they, they do it is not what they, the way they did it at the start, 673 00:38:53,430 --> 00:38:55,320 definitely was not, 674 00:38:55,740 --> 00:38:57,458 to my liking. 675 00:38:57,482 --> 00:39:01,060 More recently, there have been some, I think, 676 00:39:01,210 --> 00:39:04,534 I think there is a Mandalorian language and there is, 677 00:39:04,535 --> 00:39:07,480 there's like there's a sign language for the Tusken Raiders. 678 00:39:07,540 --> 00:39:09,700 I'm not sure what the quality of it is. 679 00:39:10,510 --> 00:39:18,360 But yeah, but also with Star Wars, definitely, I would approach it 680 00:39:18,361 --> 00:39:22,340 differently, but there are all these little snippets of different languages 681 00:39:22,341 --> 00:39:25,100 that are, that are spoken all over the place that. 682 00:39:25,640 --> 00:39:28,680 One character says one line and it's done. 683 00:39:29,280 --> 00:39:35,391 And it's like, okay, I would make something, but I would make like a sketch 684 00:39:35,451 --> 00:39:39,880 that has enough to get that one line from the script in. 685 00:39:41,710 --> 00:39:46,280 And then I'd have like a variety of different ways to do names, which 686 00:39:47,405 --> 00:39:48,405 obviously they don't do. 687 00:39:49,253 --> 00:39:50,486 (laugh) 688 00:39:50,510 --> 00:39:57,460 But then you go with something like Defiance, which Dave Peterson worked on. 689 00:39:57,790 --> 00:40:01,108 You have like these, I think it's like five alien 690 00:40:01,133 --> 00:40:05,520 cultures together that they are all going to be there. 691 00:40:07,100 --> 00:40:11,447 So you kind of want to develop that more because 692 00:40:11,448 --> 00:40:18,060 like a TV series didn't last very long, but so yeah. 693 00:40:18,220 --> 00:40:21,320 I can understand that thing. 694 00:40:21,920 --> 00:40:29,920 The one thing about like people will just gloss over the conlang text is that is 695 00:40:29,921 --> 00:40:37,020 true for most readers, but the people who get into it, and it depends on how popular 696 00:40:37,021 --> 00:40:40,460 your book gets, how many of those people you encounter, right? 697 00:40:40,610 --> 00:40:48,080 But the people who do get into it can really get into it and start to analyze. 698 00:40:48,220 --> 00:40:53,017 Even with very small amount of data, they're going to at 699 00:40:53,018 --> 00:40:57,660 least be looking closely and seeing if you are consistent. 700 00:40:58,800 --> 00:40:59,280 Right. 701 00:40:59,440 --> 00:40:59,840 Right. 702 00:40:59,920 --> 00:41:04,440 Like there's definitely like, you have to, how much of that kind of stuff you put in, 703 00:41:04,540 --> 00:41:08,260 like you really have to gauge by what type of readers you have, but also like 704 00:41:09,010 --> 00:41:12,380 narrative focus, I think is, is pretty important in that too. 705 00:41:12,480 --> 00:41:18,261 Because like, if say, if you have someone who is a princess of kingdom A 706 00:41:18,286 --> 00:41:22,800 And they're shipped over to kingdom B and they're trying to navigate this really 707 00:41:22,801 --> 00:41:26,780 high, like high stakes tense situation, but they don't speak their language. 708 00:41:27,830 --> 00:41:31,180 The things that the people are saying to them as they're trying to understand 709 00:41:31,181 --> 00:41:36,100 what's happening, like that has a lot of narrative focus where like, if someone is 710 00:41:36,101 --> 00:41:40,680 saying something like you might pick up on, like you would have more narrative 711 00:41:40,681 --> 00:41:43,163 impetus to try and figure out what's going on as 712 00:41:43,164 --> 00:41:46,040 the characters trying to figure it out versus like. 713 00:41:46,520 --> 00:41:48,475 If someone's like walking through a bar and there's 714 00:41:48,500 --> 00:41:51,700 just like side conversations that have no relevancy. 715 00:41:51,760 --> 00:41:55,800 Like there's like different weights of that too, that I think would affect how 716 00:41:55,801 --> 00:42:01,240 much people would focus on it and thus how, you know, for a general average, 717 00:42:01,550 --> 00:42:04,317 like how much people would be likely to, you know, 718 00:42:04,318 --> 00:42:07,261 really try and figure it out and focus on it. 719 00:42:07,660 --> 00:42:08,660 Yeah. 720 00:42:08,720 --> 00:42:13,800 I, I, and it's like that for every aspect of world building, I think. 721 00:42:14,000 --> 00:42:14,520 Yeah. 722 00:42:14,521 --> 00:42:16,240 And it kind of can depend. 723 00:42:18,930 --> 00:42:22,220 And it can depend on what kind of story you're telling too. 724 00:42:22,360 --> 00:42:27,443 I can understand the perspective of if it's not as pot 725 00:42:27,444 --> 00:42:31,720 relevant, you're not going to spend as much time on it. 726 00:42:32,260 --> 00:42:38,060 Like thinking about other aspects of world building, like there are people who will 727 00:42:38,061 --> 00:42:41,870 like laser in also on like descriptions of 728 00:42:41,871 --> 00:42:45,580 clothing and try to fit them into a time period. 729 00:42:45,900 --> 00:42:51,740 Even, even if it's like a fantasy story that doesn't necessarily fit into the same 730 00:42:51,890 --> 00:42:54,380 technology level as people are expecting. 731 00:42:54,770 --> 00:42:55,770 Yeah. 732 00:42:56,060 --> 00:43:02,900 But like how often are clothes and important plot point. 733 00:43:04,180 --> 00:43:10,046 Outside of certain circumstances, political 734 00:43:10,080 --> 00:43:15,084 drama with court intrigue, it might be important. 735 00:43:16,370 --> 00:43:17,640 But it's, it's. 736 00:43:18,190 --> 00:43:23,040 It's like... it's like variable. 737 00:43:23,483 --> 00:43:34,280 Things like, you know, you do a lot of work on geology and stuff and building 738 00:43:34,281 --> 00:43:41,680 your planets and, you know, how much of the natural resources are important. 739 00:43:41,681 --> 00:43:45,460 People talk about, you know, George R. 740 00:43:45,500 --> 00:43:45,600 R. 741 00:43:45,601 --> 00:43:50,480 Martin famously criticized Tolkien on, like, what is Aragorn's tax policy? 742 00:43:51,080 --> 00:43:57,820 Well, the style of story that Tolkien was telling is not concerned about that. 743 00:43:58,060 --> 00:43:58,380 Right. 744 00:43:58,460 --> 00:43:58,734 Yeah. 745 00:43:58,815 --> 00:43:59,848 (laugh) 746 00:44:01,650 --> 00:44:05,042 So, like, me coming in as a conlanger... I'm 747 00:44:05,043 --> 00:44:08,180 sort of trying to get your perspective on that. 748 00:44:08,290 --> 00:44:11,200 Me coming in as a conlanger and as a linguist... 749 00:44:11,616 --> 00:44:16,851 I'm more focused on the linguistic aspect and, like, 750 00:44:16,876 --> 00:44:22,861 linguistic realism than a lot of people would be. 751 00:44:23,520 --> 00:44:28,960 But I can understand, like, if you are dealing with all these different moving 752 00:44:28,961 --> 00:44:34,225 parts in the world building, then sometimes you might 753 00:44:34,226 --> 00:44:38,300 have different ideas of, like, how much this is important. 754 00:44:39,280 --> 00:44:39,840 Yeah. 755 00:44:39,880 --> 00:44:40,880 And I think... 756 00:44:41,680 --> 00:44:45,220 I think one of the ways that has really helped me in going from, like, 757 00:44:45,221 --> 00:44:50,080 someone who spent, like, seven years working on the world building for a world, 758 00:44:50,120 --> 00:44:52,920 like, back when I was first seriously writing, to being like, you know, 759 00:44:52,960 --> 00:44:58,520 I'm not accomplishing anything by doing this, to being a lot more focused and 760 00:44:58,521 --> 00:45:00,881 being able to get through more projects and stuff like that. 761 00:45:00,970 --> 00:45:08,500 But I find that, like, readers have only so much, like, mental capacity to kind of 762 00:45:08,950 --> 00:45:09,950 pick up on things. 763 00:45:10,106 --> 00:45:13,340 And I don't mean that as, like, a negative, but I mean, like, if they're reading and 764 00:45:13,341 --> 00:45:15,021 they want to be immersed in a story, right? 765 00:45:15,080 --> 00:45:17,992 Like, everything you change that they have to be 766 00:45:17,993 --> 00:45:21,121 thinking about is going to slow them down a little bit. 767 00:45:21,400 --> 00:45:23,460 And there's different, like, genre expectations, right? 768 00:45:23,480 --> 00:45:27,300 Like, a high fantasy, like, a reader going into that is going to be preparing to, 769 00:45:27,590 --> 00:45:33,480 like, hold a lot of stuff in their brain versus, like, you know, another genre. 770 00:45:33,765 --> 00:45:36,990 771 00:45:36,991 --> 00:45:41,000 defaults right now in the genres because, like, if it's a... 772 00:45:42,080 --> 00:45:48,680 High medieval, you know, European-based fey realm, right? 773 00:45:48,840 --> 00:45:49,320 Mm-hmm. 774 00:45:49,380 --> 00:45:52,105 There's a lot of expectations that readers already know 775 00:45:52,106 --> 00:45:54,120 with all of that stuff that you don't have to explain. 776 00:45:54,200 --> 00:45:56,640 Like, you don't have to explain how a medieval society works. 777 00:45:56,730 --> 00:45:59,720 You don't have to explain how fey works. 778 00:45:59,890 --> 00:46:02,356 Like, if you go with all those, like, default things... 779 00:46:02,381 --> 00:46:02,700 Yeah. 780 00:46:03,240 --> 00:46:05,640 And everything that you do that's, like, different. 781 00:46:05,740 --> 00:46:08,380 So, like, if you go into, like, a Sanderson book, for example, 782 00:46:08,381 --> 00:46:11,460 like, you have to pick up on so many things that changes society. 783 00:46:11,600 --> 00:46:15,220 ...that changes the way that you have to interpret what's happening. 784 00:46:15,740 --> 00:46:17,960 Understanding how that magic system works. 785 00:46:18,065 --> 00:46:19,680 Understanding how the society works. 786 00:46:19,960 --> 00:46:21,940 Understanding the sayings they make. 787 00:46:22,645 --> 00:46:23,700 All that extra stuff. 788 00:46:25,430 --> 00:46:28,920 A reader's only going to be able to pull so much of that at a time. 789 00:46:29,080 --> 00:46:31,804 And having to be very intentional about, okay, what are 790 00:46:31,805 --> 00:46:34,300 the things you're going to ask your reader to understand? 791 00:46:34,560 --> 00:46:37,531 And if it's not relevant to the story, you're best 792 00:46:37,532 --> 00:46:40,121 served choosing things that are more relevant. 793 00:46:41,645 --> 00:46:44,197 It's something that at least helps my brain with 794 00:46:44,198 --> 00:46:46,841 choosing and being intentional about that stuff. 795 00:46:46,950 --> 00:46:48,680 Because it doesn't have to be plot relevant. 796 00:46:49,220 --> 00:46:53,760 Because having a good tone, having an immersive feel, having a certain 797 00:46:53,761 --> 00:46:57,601 experience of reading the prose, there's a lot 798 00:46:57,602 --> 00:47:01,200 of different goals with storytelling in general. 799 00:47:01,835 --> 00:47:06,600 And choosing what things you want to include for those different goals and how 800 00:47:06,601 --> 00:47:09,820 much you're going to ask your reader to figure out for all of that. 801 00:47:09,840 --> 00:47:15,000 If you're like, okay, I want you to understand this whole new type of time. 802 00:47:15,560 --> 00:47:18,306 We're going to have a whole different calendar, a whole different clock, 803 00:47:18,330 --> 00:47:20,051 the way time works is going to be different. 804 00:47:20,260 --> 00:47:22,101 We're going to have tons of sayings about time. 805 00:47:22,700 --> 00:47:27,160 Your reader's going to have to learn that and understand that and keep that up in 806 00:47:27,161 --> 00:47:30,121 their mind as they're reading so that every time it comes up, they're like, 807 00:47:30,230 --> 00:47:34,280 ah, yes, so that links back to this and how I understand it. 808 00:47:34,350 --> 00:47:36,046 It's like, okay, that's a week, right? 809 00:47:36,820 --> 00:47:39,660 And if there's no reason to do that, that... 810 00:47:40,190 --> 00:47:43,258 Mental energy could be spent, like, understanding 811 00:47:43,259 --> 00:47:45,720 a conlang instead that's more relevant, you know? 812 00:47:46,460 --> 00:47:47,460 Yeah, yeah. 813 00:47:48,248 --> 00:47:58,720 That is interesting, because, like, talking about the way that time works, 814 00:47:58,860 --> 00:48:03,740 you know, I go to, I think of Farscape. 815 00:48:05,360 --> 00:48:12,040 And I don't even remember what all the units were, but I think there is, 816 00:48:12,460 --> 00:48:17,120 like, a unit of time that they use that's, like, about half an hour. 817 00:48:18,685 --> 00:48:24,320 And you do eventually, you can get into it and kind of understand it, but it's not 818 00:48:24,470 --> 00:48:25,940 necessarily brought up that often. 819 00:48:27,660 --> 00:48:30,320 I think there was a particular episode where it 820 00:48:30,321 --> 00:48:33,720 was, like, particularly important to track the time. 821 00:48:33,940 --> 00:48:36,140 And they mentioned this over and over. 822 00:48:37,528 --> 00:48:46,280 And I read one of Matt Colville's books, and he had, 823 00:48:46,281 --> 00:48:50,160 like, a system where he had something called a turn. 824 00:48:50,960 --> 00:48:55,484 And he had a whole, like, explanation of how it's based 825 00:48:55,485 --> 00:49:00,000 on the rotation of one of the moons of the planet. 826 00:49:00,730 --> 00:49:02,500 And it's really interesting. 827 00:49:02,501 --> 00:49:07,120 I don't know how relevant it was. 828 00:49:07,260 --> 00:49:10,359 It definitely did give the feeling of this is a 829 00:49:10,360 --> 00:49:13,541 different world and tied in some other things. 830 00:49:13,570 --> 00:49:14,570 So it's... 831 00:49:15,420 --> 00:49:17,360 And so that's what you were talking about. 832 00:49:17,420 --> 00:49:21,100 It doesn't necessarily have to be plot relevant if it gives you a different feel. 833 00:49:21,240 --> 00:49:25,740 But at the same time, like, there could be a situation where you have something like 834 00:49:25,990 --> 00:49:30,180 that, but it's, like, brought up. 835 00:49:30,480 --> 00:49:33,360 And it's not... central to the story. 836 00:49:33,440 --> 00:49:36,697 So people don't really talk in time references 837 00:49:36,698 --> 00:49:39,401 or distance references or things like that. 838 00:49:39,860 --> 00:49:40,460 Right. 839 00:49:40,580 --> 00:49:40,660 Right. 840 00:49:41,505 --> 00:49:45,480 But we're talking about sort of the world -building iceberg. 841 00:49:46,080 --> 00:49:47,080 Yeah. 842 00:49:47,650 --> 00:49:52,465 And how much below the waterline do you actually need 843 00:49:52,466 --> 00:49:55,241 to construct before you actually write your story? 844 00:49:55,450 --> 00:49:59,394 Because if it's, like, if you do so too much, 845 00:49:59,419 --> 00:50:02,361 then you're spending all your time on that. 846 00:50:05,040 --> 00:50:06,040 Yeah. 847 00:50:06,760 --> 00:50:09,160 I definitely agree with that a lot. 848 00:50:09,200 --> 00:50:12,241 And I think, like, there's definitely that difference 849 00:50:12,242 --> 00:50:15,960 between things that are there for aesthetic purpose, right? 850 00:50:16,060 --> 00:50:18,860 Like, you'll mention something because it's part of the world. 851 00:50:18,900 --> 00:50:21,060 Like, oh, like, times work slightly different. 852 00:50:21,650 --> 00:50:25,011 But the reader doesn't need to memorize and remember 853 00:50:25,012 --> 00:50:27,720 the specific details to understand things in the book. 854 00:50:27,865 --> 00:50:32,000 It's just, you know, like, set dressing, sort of. 855 00:50:32,001 --> 00:50:32,220 Yeah. 856 00:50:32,221 --> 00:50:34,500 To the... To the, you know, culture or the society and stuff. 857 00:50:34,540 --> 00:50:39,420 Like, there's definitely a difference between, like, that side of world-building 858 00:50:39,421 --> 00:50:42,456 and then the, like, you need to remember this because if you don't understand this, 859 00:50:42,480 --> 00:50:45,500 you are not going to understand any of the things that are going to happen, you know? 860 00:50:46,160 --> 00:50:46,560 Yeah. 861 00:50:46,620 --> 00:50:47,620 Yeah. 862 00:50:47,945 --> 00:50:54,840 And you can think about, like, things like how, like, if people are 863 00:50:55,140 --> 00:50:59,800 taking quotes from your book out of context, how many, like, extra words are 864 00:50:59,801 --> 00:51:01,500 there that people are not going to understand? 865 00:51:01,501 --> 00:51:06,520 So, it is very interesting to, like, think in those terms, too, 866 00:51:06,720 --> 00:51:10,020 of the presentation of the world through the story. 867 00:51:12,799 --> 00:51:21,960 We're running close to time, but I want to mention for the people who are watching on 868 00:51:21,961 --> 00:51:26,700 video, there is a globe behind you, and that does not look like Earth. 869 00:51:26,740 --> 00:51:27,740 Is that your world? 870 00:51:28,470 --> 00:51:30,160 That's one of the ones I'm building, yeah. 871 00:51:30,240 --> 00:51:31,440 I think that's actually the... 872 00:51:31,600 --> 00:51:37,600 Potion World one, where that little island is where my story is taking place. 873 00:51:38,680 --> 00:51:42,800 Oh, I think... have I seen that stream? 874 00:51:43,100 --> 00:51:48,904 Have you... I think you were streaming building up, like, 875 00:51:48,905 --> 00:51:53,180 the flora and fauna and then into the cultural stuff of that? 876 00:51:53,780 --> 00:51:54,580 Yeah, yeah. 877 00:51:54,660 --> 00:52:00,680 So, I've done a lot of... as I've been building out the, like, societal... 878 00:52:00,705 --> 00:52:03,300 Like, how I want to link going from... 879 00:52:04,400 --> 00:52:07,200 I don't like geographic determinism, like, at all. 880 00:52:07,240 --> 00:52:09,240 Like, if you go into my guides, like, that's not... 881 00:52:10,200 --> 00:52:10,520 Right. 882 00:52:11,040 --> 00:52:14,120 Right, but, like, there's some, like, things that, like, I like it to matter. 883 00:52:14,420 --> 00:52:17,540 So, like, I like it to be, like, multi-source for, like, how, like, 884 00:52:17,630 --> 00:52:19,660 societies and cultures develop and stuff like that. 885 00:52:19,760 --> 00:52:23,280 But, yeah, this is the one where I was playing around with a lot of those 886 00:52:23,430 --> 00:52:25,927 concepts for figuring out, like, how I want 887 00:52:25,928 --> 00:52:28,100 to have all that linked and mapped and stuff. 888 00:52:28,134 --> 00:52:33,536 I think I have a few videos where I'm playing around with this world in general. 889 00:52:33,560 --> 00:52:34,560 Yeah. 890 00:52:35,060 --> 00:52:36,280 That's really cool. 891 00:52:36,610 --> 00:52:38,060 How did you get a globe like that? 892 00:52:39,270 --> 00:52:43,040 I just, like, bought a globe, like, a regular one, and I sanded it down. 893 00:52:43,660 --> 00:52:46,460 And then I used Sharpie to go over the lat -long lines. 894 00:52:46,660 --> 00:52:48,660 And then I just exported, like... 895 00:52:49,220 --> 00:52:53,400 I put my map in, like, 3D software and exported it in a bunch of different, 896 00:52:53,480 --> 00:52:56,600 like, projections that would make it easier to see different parts of it with 897 00:52:56,700 --> 00:52:57,700 the same lat-long lines. 898 00:52:57,840 --> 00:53:00,780 And then I'm just, like, hand-putting it on the... 899 00:53:01,200 --> 00:53:01,660 the globe. 900 00:53:02,100 --> 00:53:03,100 Oh. 901 00:53:03,210 --> 00:53:05,500 Oh, you drew it by hand onto the globe? 902 00:53:05,740 --> 00:53:06,180 Yes. 903 00:53:06,500 --> 00:53:07,080 Okay. 904 00:53:07,360 --> 00:53:07,940 That's... 905 00:53:08,040 --> 00:53:09,040 That's amazing. 906 00:53:10,060 --> 00:53:11,100 It's a lot of effort. 907 00:53:13,060 --> 00:53:14,060 Yeah. 908 00:53:14,090 --> 00:53:17,640 That is, like, super interesting. 909 00:53:17,960 --> 00:53:18,980 That is super cool. 910 00:53:19,560 --> 00:53:20,740 It'll be done in five years. 911 00:53:21,080 --> 00:53:22,080 Yeah. 912 00:53:23,600 --> 00:53:30,961 One last thing I want to say is, like, we were talking about, like, the limits. 913 00:53:31,700 --> 00:53:37,440 I kind of think that I have a reverse thing going on with my own stuff because, 914 00:53:37,480 --> 00:53:42,660 for me, in Tongues and Runes, the language is the focus. 915 00:53:44,000 --> 00:53:50,240 And then I'm saying, like, a lot of other world-building things, I am, like, 916 00:53:50,241 --> 00:53:54,980 being selective about what I determine about that because, on the one hand, 917 00:53:55,290 --> 00:53:56,411 language touches everything. 918 00:53:56,500 --> 00:53:57,540 You kind of have to... 919 00:53:57,541 --> 00:54:00,700 If you're building a language, you have to kind of know all the things. 920 00:54:01,173 --> 00:54:08,700 However, I'm making these languages for other people's D&D 921 00:54:08,701 --> 00:54:11,801 campaigns that I don't know anything about the setting for. 922 00:54:12,650 --> 00:54:20,581 So I'm thinking about, like, I can't be super specific about geography. 923 00:54:21,150 --> 00:54:28,500 I can't be super specific about, like, the structure of the planet in the 924 00:54:28,650 --> 00:54:29,700 prime material plane. 925 00:54:30,010 --> 00:54:30,889 I have to sort of select. 926 00:54:30,970 --> 00:54:41,500 And, like, for, like, Ndakaga, for dragons, a lot of the world-building 927 00:54:41,501 --> 00:54:46,900 that I did end up doing was, like, changing things about dragon physiology, right? 928 00:54:47,080 --> 00:54:48,840 I made them... 929 00:54:49,140 --> 00:54:50,540 I gave them magnetoreception. 930 00:54:50,660 --> 00:54:53,400 I gave them the... 931 00:54:54,650 --> 00:55:00,360 I determined that they are obligate carnivores, which I don't know if D&D... 932 00:55:01,200 --> 00:55:05,240 actually states that in lore, but it makes sense. 933 00:55:05,440 --> 00:55:08,020 And I, like, gave them tetrachromatic vision. 934 00:55:10,390 --> 00:55:15,440 And then for the fey one, I'm like, I'm not going to talk about who 935 00:55:15,441 --> 00:55:22,620 individuals are in the fey world, but I felt a little bit more free of 936 00:55:22,920 --> 00:55:27,640 putting my stamp on, okay, this is my conception of what they call the Feywild. 937 00:55:28,020 --> 00:55:29,040 I'll call it Faerie. 938 00:55:29,560 --> 00:55:30,560 And it's... 939 00:55:31,450 --> 00:55:38,160 It's also, like, my world-building decisions end up being, like, in the 940 00:55:38,161 --> 00:55:39,900 service of being more neutral, too. 941 00:55:40,220 --> 00:55:40,820 Right. 942 00:55:40,821 --> 00:55:45,800 So I won't elaborate too much about this because this podcast is about you, 943 00:55:46,170 --> 00:55:53,040 but it is interesting that I have, like, a mirror image of that going on 944 00:55:53,041 --> 00:55:58,340 where, like, I'm building language, but other world-building stuff I have 945 00:55:58,440 --> 00:56:00,060 reasons to be sketchy on. 946 00:56:01,320 --> 00:56:04,560 Yeah, it's definitely one of those things where there's a lot of different ways to 947 00:56:04,561 --> 00:56:08,440 go about it, and it's something that I run across both with conlanging, but also with 948 00:56:09,140 --> 00:56:09,980 world -building in general. 949 00:56:10,060 --> 00:56:15,240 Like, I have that very intense, like, physical world-based, like, 950 00:56:15,310 --> 00:56:17,669 world-building guide of creating a physical world from 951 00:56:17,670 --> 00:56:19,941 plate tectonics to air circulation to ocean circulation. 952 00:56:20,730 --> 00:56:22,956 And there's a lot of people that will take that way further. 953 00:56:22,980 --> 00:56:26,960 Like, they'll go in and do, like, G plates and build, like, tectonic history. 954 00:56:27,040 --> 00:56:30,600 And, like, they go really hard because, like, that is the thing that they're doing. 955 00:56:31,250 --> 00:56:33,612 Whereas like in my projects, I don't actually 956 00:56:33,613 --> 00:56:35,720 use my whole guide on my personal projects. 957 00:56:35,930 --> 00:56:37,440 I use bits and pieces of them. 958 00:56:37,580 --> 00:56:39,962 But I had to figure out the whole guide in order to 959 00:56:39,963 --> 00:56:43,060 like understand how to extrapolate small pieces of it. 960 00:56:43,740 --> 00:56:48,040 And it's just like very different focuses of like, I don't know what everyone does. 961 00:56:48,140 --> 00:56:51,640 I find it fascinating, you know, different focuses, different ways to go 962 00:56:51,641 --> 00:56:53,620 about things like it's so different for everybody. 963 00:56:54,370 --> 00:57:00,940 I mean, talk about like, for me, when I have a novel project that is like, 964 00:57:02,423 --> 00:57:02,920 it's there. 965 00:57:03,590 --> 00:57:07,900 I have a couple of actual like novel projects that are there. 966 00:57:08,560 --> 00:57:14,292 And like, I tried building worlds, but like, the plate 967 00:57:14,293 --> 00:57:17,700 tectonics and all that stuff doesn't interest me very much. 968 00:57:17,760 --> 00:57:20,740 And I end up just like not even using a map at all. 969 00:57:21,540 --> 00:57:23,420 I mean, you don't have to, you know what I mean? 970 00:57:23,620 --> 00:57:29,220 Yeah, it's like, and, and, well, it depends, I think, on that. 971 00:57:29,495 --> 00:57:31,460 That's another thing that depends on the story. 972 00:57:32,330 --> 00:57:39,100 I have, if, if I'm doing an idea that involves travel from place to place, 973 00:57:39,200 --> 00:57:45,974 I might need a map in order to understand, like, where people are. 974 00:57:47,620 --> 00:57:53,400 But I have like, the most recent one just like happens in... 975 00:57:53,670 --> 00:57:55,220 like, one place. 976 00:57:55,940 --> 00:58:02,280 So I'm like, I don't know if I really need to know this stuff beyond like, 977 00:58:02,360 --> 00:58:08,300 very sketchy of like, what this particular island, I don't know if I think it's going 978 00:58:08,301 --> 00:58:13,440 to be on an island, but it's like this particular place that has the magic 979 00:58:13,441 --> 00:58:19,120 university, like, sketchy ideas of what different areas exist, right? 980 00:58:20,120 --> 00:58:23,600 So it's, it is interesting, like, some people are going... 981 00:58:23,620 --> 00:58:28,374 going to focus on... focusing on what you're interested 982 00:58:28,375 --> 00:58:31,980 in will make that part interesting in the story, I think. 983 00:58:32,040 --> 00:58:32,340 Yeah. 984 00:58:32,360 --> 00:58:33,360 Yeah, exactly. 985 00:58:34,674 --> 00:58:38,480 Um, so, uh, that's about time. 986 00:58:39,305 --> 00:58:47,280 I, I... I'll cut this out if it doesn't happen, but, um, we have a plan that, 987 00:58:47,600 --> 00:58:52,860 uh, this is, this is gonna be like, I mean, this is a podcast episode, 988 00:58:52,960 --> 00:58:58,240 but there's also... there's also going to be, like, one piece of, of, uh, a collab, 989 00:58:58,480 --> 00:59:03,000 as they call it, or a co-lab, I don't know, people pronounce it different ways, 990 00:59:03,025 --> 00:59:11,500 but like, uh, so, at some point, I am going to go talk to Madeline on her 991 00:59:11,501 --> 00:59:17,320 side, and then you'll, you'll be hearing more from, of her asking questions to me 992 00:59:17,321 --> 00:59:23,600 about advice for, for fleshing out languages 993 00:59:23,601 --> 00:59:24,901 or, or however, however we're going to do that 994 00:59:25,068 --> 00:59:30,980 Um, so, um, as, as of this recording, we're, we're going to be planning that, 995 00:59:31,700 --> 00:59:39,080 um, but, uh, but, um, depending on how things up, maybe they'll be up at around 996 00:59:39,081 --> 00:59:41,900 the same time, the two, the two different videos. 997 00:59:41,980 --> 00:59:45,911 So, uh, you can go to her channel and check that 998 00:59:45,912 --> 00:59:49,301 part out where she's asking me the questions. 999 00:59:49,380 --> 00:59:49,860 Yeah. 1000 00:59:50,180 --> 00:59:53,013 Um, so, um, Madeline 1001 00:59:53,038 --> 00:59:57,980 Before we go, do you have any, like, final advice for all the, 1002 00:59:58,205 --> 00:59:59,366 all the conlangers out there? 1003 01:00:00,780 --> 01:00:05,021 And, and, uh, for any of the writers who are on here 1004 01:00:05,022 --> 01:00:08,400 interested in incorporating conlangs into their writing? 1005 01:00:09,620 --> 01:00:12,990 Um, I mean, I think my biggest piece of advice is just 1006 01:00:12,991 --> 01:00:15,700 don't do things just because you think you have to do them. 1007 01:00:15,980 --> 01:00:20,431 Like, I think that there's, there's so many things that you 1008 01:00:20,432 --> 01:00:25,929 can do in the grand scheme of worldbuilding and conlanging and telling stories and all of that. 1009 01:00:26,237 --> 01:00:29,430 If you're hearing about all this stuff, and you're a writer and you're like, 1010 01:00:29,430 --> 01:00:31,497 "Oh, that sounds awful," like, don't do it. 1011 01:00:31,716 --> 01:00:35,209 Like there are easy generators and stuff you can use online to do it, or if it 1012 01:00:35,297 --> 01:00:37,297 does sound interesting, like, go for it. 1013 01:00:37,717 --> 01:00:41,530 And you know, there's a lot of different resources out there, like I know... 1014 01:00:41,555 --> 01:00:46,228 I know Jessie and David have done some talks, the Petersons, on naming languages 1015 01:00:46,268 --> 01:00:49,276 There's a handful of them around YouTube, like.. 1016 01:00:49,370 --> 01:00:52,636 There's plenty of places to go and like learn about how to that at a really high level. 1017 01:00:53,940 --> 01:00:57,980 But I found being intentional is the most important thing of laying out like, 1018 01:00:58,520 --> 01:01:02,720 this is my goal, this is how much time I want to spend on this, like, and then 1019 01:01:02,721 --> 01:01:06,840 trying to stick to that, to an extent, like, I mean, if the inspiration takes you 1020 01:01:06,841 --> 01:01:10,940 then go for it but like don't feel like you have to do stuff just because you have 1021 01:01:11,090 --> 01:01:15,560 to do it if it's not interesting to you and I think something that David Peterson 1022 01:01:15,561 --> 01:01:19,620 mentioned in one of his like videos online is that you can always just pay a 1023 01:01:19,621 --> 01:01:22,621 conlanger to do something for you if you don't want to do it yourself, like, 1024 01:01:23,330 --> 01:01:24,851 you know, that's definitely an option. 1025 01:01:25,790 --> 01:01:27,560 And I was going to get to that. 1026 01:01:27,940 --> 01:01:28,940 Like, so... 1027 01:01:31,640 --> 01:01:36,480 because, I mean, authors tend to be kind of independent and kind of low on budget, 1028 01:01:36,765 --> 01:01:38,920 but it is an option out there. 1029 01:01:38,945 --> 01:01:50,060 There's the LCS Jobs Award you can go to or if you happen to be in places where 1030 01:01:50,061 --> 01:01:54,980 you're, like, adjacent to conlangers in a community then you can, like, contact 1031 01:01:54,981 --> 01:02:01,281 people and see if people want to collaborate with you and work with you on things. 1032 01:02:02,960 --> 01:02:10,960 Definitely but, like, definitely people welcome conlangers will welcome working 1033 01:02:10,961 --> 01:02:14,860 with authors on things, especially if there's payment involved, but, 1034 01:02:16,080 --> 01:02:23,780 you know, it's up to you to, like, work out what things are worth to you and 1035 01:02:23,980 --> 01:02:24,980 all of that. 1036 01:02:25,170 --> 01:02:26,400 But, yeah. 1037 01:02:28,500 --> 01:02:33,860 I advocate for anybody who's interested to try to learn to do the conlanging. 1038 01:02:34,560 --> 01:02:39,760 But, I also will advocate for... yeah, you can hire conlangers if you've got the 1039 01:02:40,405 --> 01:02:42,380 funds to do that. 1040 01:02:42,705 --> 01:02:44,420 And that is also... 1041 01:02:45,830 --> 01:02:48,180 it's like bringing in an expert on anything else. 1042 01:02:48,830 --> 01:02:51,260 Like, an expert consultant on anything else. 1043 01:02:51,300 --> 01:02:52,300 Like your... 1044 01:02:56,708 --> 01:03:07,580 A lot of people have like consultants on like beta readers who specialize in 1045 01:03:07,581 --> 01:03:09,214 different things and different like 1046 01:03:09,308 --> 01:03:10,863 Oh, yeah, like sensitivity readers and... 1047 01:03:10,887 --> 01:03:14,640 sensitivity readers things and or people 1048 01:03:14,641 --> 01:03:19,020 who have specialized knowledge in different parts of the world building. 1049 01:03:19,570 --> 01:03:23,980 It's just like that if you want to involve someone. 1050 01:03:24,330 --> 01:03:27,780 But anyway, thank you, Madeline, for coming on. 1051 01:03:28,150 --> 01:03:33,880 It's been really interesting hearing your perspective as like most of my guests are 1052 01:03:33,881 --> 01:03:40,500 conlangers first and they're thinking about the conlang in the first place. 1053 01:03:41,080 --> 01:03:46,940 You thinking about first, what conlang things do I need for my story? 1054 01:03:47,020 --> 01:03:49,000 And then how can I learn how to do that? 1055 01:03:49,170 --> 01:03:52,180 Part of it is very interesting to me. 1056 01:03:52,520 --> 01:03:55,340 And I hope people have enjoyed it. 1057 01:03:56,430 --> 01:03:59,240 And once again, thank you for coming on. 1058 01:03:59,730 --> 01:04:03,960 And hopefully people will see me on on on your side. 1059 01:04:04,080 --> 01:04:05,080 Yeah. 1060 01:04:05,335 --> 01:04:07,700 And I'm going to say happy conlanging. 1061 01:04:08,020 --> 01:04:08,460 Yeah. 1062 01:04:08,740 --> 01:04:09,520 Happy conlanging. 1063 01:04:09,620 --> 01:04:10,500 Thank you for having me on. 1064 01:04:10,560 --> 01:04:11,560 This has been really fun. 1065 01:04:13,250 --> 01:04:15,640 Special thanks to my patrons on Patreon. 1066 01:04:15,780 --> 01:04:18,700 If you go over there right now, you can get... 1067 01:04:19,020 --> 01:04:20,340 Early access to episodes. 1068 01:04:20,760 --> 01:04:24,380 You can get access to scripts for my solo episodes. 1069 01:04:24,440 --> 01:04:31,440 And you can go get access to exclusive polls for Tongues and Runes. 1070 01:04:32,905 --> 01:04:33,905 Thank you to... 1071 01:04:35,108 --> 01:04:44,250 Mintaka, Kenan Kigunda, Conor Stuart Roe, Jesse, Kaye, Alex Rossell Hayes, 1072 01:04:44,363 --> 01:04:48,783 Vyren Patrick, Tabby, Alexis Hugelmann 1073 01:04:49,070 --> 01:04:55,980 Silvia Sotomayor, Grammar Antifa, Wu Mingshuai, Grakkagrunk, Sigourney 1074 01:04:55,981 --> 01:05:02,520 Hunter, iloivar Jaana Mentoleum, Niklas Norblad, Anthony Docimo, 1075 01:05:03,600 --> 01:05:11,600 Artifexian, Jake Penny, Miles Wronkovich, Paul Roser, Langwyrm, Our Table, 1076 01:05:12,380 --> 01:05:14,380 Asa, Horn Bori. 1077 01:05:16,010 --> 01:05:18,820 Conlangery's theme music is by Null Device. 1078 01:05:21,285 --> 01:05:25,535 Conlangery is distributed under a Creative Commons Attribution 1079 01:05:25,536 --> 01:05:30,340 Non-Commercial Share Alike 4.0 International License.