But the limitations with, like, writing a book is
that, like, the reader doesn't speak the language.
So it is meaningless to them.
And so they will, in most cases, right, they're just going to skim.
Like, if you're reading and then you have something that's in, like, those italic
other language, you know, gibbly bits, whatever, they're going to be like,
I don't know what that means, skim it, and then go to the next line, right?
[Music]
Welcome to Conlangery, the podcast about constructed
languages and the people who create them.
I'm George Corley.
And with me over in Maryland is Madeline James of the Madeline James Writes channel.
And we're here to talk with you, Madeline, about...
you are just recently sort of getting into conlanging.
Yeah.
So Madeline's channel has a lot of world building stuff.
And you do great tutorials about building
geology and planets and also cultures and stuff.
But you just, like, I believe with your streams, what you were doing is you
started out doing just naming languages, right?
Yeah.
And then recently...
You started to do a language for spellcasting.
But you don't... you're not doing the same thing like I do when I do spellcasting
languages, where I make a language, and then
I make it for... and then I do incantations.
But you're, like, sort of going from the opposite end.
I want to talk to you about, like, how did you discover, like, conlanging and.
And how did you... how did... how did that come
into your, like, broader world building stuff?
And how were you introduced to that?
Yeah.
So, I mean, I guess it all starts because as a fantasy writer, you have to build
your fantasy worlds, which all the stuff on my
channel is adjacent to that or part of that process.
But I sort of started by when you have a fantasy society or fantasy kingdom world,
whatever, and you want to pick some sort of...
consistent, like, naming for people and places.
And it all started with that and sort of picking inspirational
places around the world to kind of base the names off of.
So, like, one of the earlier projects I have that I started with that I'm going to
redo the naming for now, but all my names were based off Croatian origins.
And so you'll see a lot that have, like... What are the big ones right now?
Like, Celtic is a really big one right now.
A lot of people don't... A lot of people don't do, like, Latin-based things.
Like, you take sources.
But as I started to learn more about it and learn more about, I guess,
the way names originate at all, like, there's a lot of meaning packed into that.
And there's a lot of, like, if you're not a native speaker of the language,
like, you won't pick up on things that you're potentially
using that could be problematic or just wouldn't make sense.
And it's a missed opportunity.
In my opinion, to be very intentional about those things.
So I started learning how to do naming languages where you're, you know,
start with a base, like, you know, phonology and you go through and just
build out, like, what those names would look like to give them a cohesive,
like, look and feel while not being entirely modern.
And so they don't have that, like, where it pushes you out of it,
where you're in this, like, you know, medieval-esque fantasy world.
And someone's named, like, Sally or something like that, right?
Like, things that fit in the world.
And then that sort of tumbled me down on an eventual path that led me to actual,
like, closer to real conlanging.
(laugh)
Closer.
We'll talk about that.
So...
When I hear naming language, I have a certain thing in mind, because this is a
thing that has been talked about in the conlanging community.
For a while, it's like a, I think it's a category on the
LCS jobs board is, like, getting just a naming language.
But tell me about what a naming language means to you.
What are you looking for?
What are you trying to develop in order to get that baseline to get consistent names?
So the main thing that I do for, at least how I do naming
languages for, which are, again, all from my books.
Right?
So I don't use IPA at all, just because...
-I mean, maybe one day I'll be, like, super -Hurts me
-famous and my books will be, like, in a movie. -That hurts me.
That hurts me.
And then I'll care how they're pronounced.
But for the most part, I just, everything is just default
how a generic English speaker would pronounce things.
And so it's mostly which letters or, like, sounds I include.
I do a lot with...
And I guess this is one of the differences for me with
doing a naming language for, like, a book versus...
like, probably a more general naming language.
But you only have a few examples in a book, right?
Like, you'll have maybe a few dozen names, whether it's people's names, place names.
So I try and really make them very distinct.
So I'll pick certain sounds, a lot of rules.
I'll cut a lot of things out in terms of the sounds.
And then I'll come up with, I guess, probably a lot of
structure for, like, the number of syllables in a name.
I'll do, like, percentages of, like...
Okay, this country or this group's names tend to be, like, two syllables and they
tend to be, you know, very short, like, CVC or, like, CVCV, something like
that that's very condensed and one will be longer.
Like, just playing a lot more on the differences of it.
And I don't get into roots or meaning of names.
I'll do that for place names very simply.
But the names themselves are mostly just to have, like...
Like, an aesthetic that appeals to both, like, differentiating different cultural
groups and different, like, national groups in my books.
And also for having, I guess, like, an aesthetic feel that kind of matches
what I'm trying to portray from, like, a societal level.
And then, like, extra bits and bobs, like, if there's different, like,
titles or ways to address people or, like,
that sort of thing that wouldn't be translated.
Like, if you assume the book was in that language.
Originally, but then translated into English.
Some of those things that would, like, linger, I'll come up with.
Normally, like, titles or addresses if there's different,
like, your lord and lady equivalent or whatnot.
Yeah.
I will say, like, I interjected because you said you don't use IPA.
I was like, that hurts.
Because of me as a phonetician.
But watching your streams.
It's not like you are not...
using any, like, phonological theory at all.
You know, you have learned, you know, all of the stuff.
And you make, like, a phoneme chart like we would recognize.
But you are specifically targeting, like, English
speakers and how they would tend to pronounce things.
Which, it's...
I approach from the other direction.
But I think there are some ideas that I have.
With constructing, like, my languages for D&D that are similar.
Which we could talk about.
But in terms of, like, how I choose to romanize things.
And what distinctions I choose to put in.
But going back.
So, you say that you consider meaning more for geographic terms.
Mm-hmm.
Than for...
For personal names.
Yeah.
Do...
Like...
Why... Why is that exactly?
It's mostly just from a patterning perspective for me.
So, like, with naming people.
Like, I mean, I guess if it became a thing
where I wanted there to be, like, a plot point.
Or something where someone's name is significant.
Like, the meaning of their name is significant.
Because, like, I watch a lot of, like...
I guess...
I guess, like, historical, like, K-dramas and C-dramas and stuff like that.
And they're, like...
It tends to be, like, a little story point.
Like, what the main character's name is and stuff like that.
But that's not something I've ever used.
If I did something like that, then I might think harder about what the names mean.
But usually it's just what you call a person.
Whereas, like, with place names, people might pick up on patterns.
Like, if they were looking at a map, they'd be like, oh,
this place that's a mountain and this place has a mountain.
And has, like, a similar...
pieces in it, right?
Where those might mean something like hills or mountains or place of great heights.
You know, where you could pick up on those similarities and gain meaning.
Whereas, I don't expect readers to ever pick up on
similar things or similar bits and character names.
And be like, oh, yes, they must have some sort of
philosophical similarity or something between it.
You know?
I mean, yeah.
Place names, like... If you drill down the etymology...
The etymologies of place names, often they are quite, like, boring and on the nose.
The big mountain.
Right.
The snowy mountains.
Right.
The other big mountain.
The long river, things like that.
But I find it interesting.
You talk about K-dramas and C-dramas.
You're talking about them using significant meanings to names.
Those are cultures, also, that are more likely to have transparent names.
Like, straight up, like, if I think of my Chinese friends and I look at the
characters, I can know what their name means.
My wife's name means beautiful.
All that kind of thing.
Which is, it happens in English, but it's not as common.
We have a lot of, like, historical names
that, like, there's an etymology for my name.
And there's an etymology for your name.
But nobody ever thinks about it when they're naming their child that.
And I think there's an interesting sort of cultural thing to talk about in that.
Because, like, maybe the people who speak your
conlangs might have more transparent names than we do.
But the audience that you're reading is used to
just taking a name as another word to memorize.
Right?
Right.
Exactly.
So, like, if I wanted that to be, like...
You know, because it depends on what...
It depends on what you want to focus on where, you
know, cultures are obviously incredibly complicated.
But just like worldbuilding in general, like, when you're portraying a society and
a culture, you have to kind of pick and choose what to include in the book.
Because, like, you can't just throw everything
out there because it would be overwhelming.
They wouldn't latch on to anything.
Like, it's just...
That's where you get into info dumping.
So I like to choose specific pieces to really
focus on and have it, like, feel immersive.
Even if it's not, like, everything.
So I'm sure at some point I'll do...
And especially as I expand my understanding
of ways names can work in a culture and stuff.
But where that would be a point where that would come up and that would actually be
shown whether or not it actually is and is just, like, hidden through the filter of,
like, it being written in a book, you know?
Another piece of that is, like, how much do you
get into, on the one hand, like, naming things?
Like, naming conventions, like, whether there are surnames or patronyms or whatever.
And also, do you do any...
How much do you do, like, morphology?
I guess for place names you kind of do need some morphosyntax stuff.
But personal names can depend on the language whether there's anything, right?
Yeah, so it kind of... It's been very different for me for every project.
And again, like, I'm still, like, the most, like, preschool...
Naming language, conlanger, whatever you want to call it.
Like, I'm still very much learning everything.
But so far, every project has been very different for me.
And it depends a lot on how much opportunity I have to portray things in the book.
So, for example, one of the big projects I'm working on, the one where the spell
language that I'm making is part of that project.
I also have three other naming languages in there.
And so, two of them are mostly just for side characters.
Because there's a few people from different, like, different countries that
would have a different sort of naming feel to them.
So, I've built out just enough of their culture.
Like, I think one of the names, it's just
straight up, like, it's, like, a couple syllables.
It's a very strict pattern.
There is... It's a very limited set of, like, sounds.
And then it's, like, they're...
It's, like, they have a different naming surname pattern for if they...
They are from one of the, like, jungle cities versus one of the,
like, coastal cities.
Because that's a big societal differentiation in their culture.
So, like, I put that as, like, a distinctive thing in their, like, surnames.
But other than that, it's just, like, there's nothing complicated about it.
It's just straight generation of, like, base syllables that just get stuck together.
And then...
Because, like, there's only going to be, like, four or five names.
And they'll never get explained in depth.
So, it's, like, a little bit of...
Something.
But then... For the other ones, I'll get more complicated.
I have...
I don't know.
I use a program when I do this that I've written that has a lot of rules to make
things sound more, like, English pronounceable.
So, like, there's a lot of...
Oh, what are they called?
Like, when you have the multiple vowels, the diphthongs?
Yeah.
Yeah, like, different diphthongs that I don't allow.
Different, like, consonant clusters that I won't allow when syllables are merged.
Like...
Not quite, like, sandhi-level things.
But, like, really basic stuff that I just...
I toss anything that ends up being generated with that in it.
But then my, like, more complicated ones that I have a lot of, like, things being
generated in it and I need it to be less strict.
Then I have some general rules that I'll apply to,
like, when I'm compounding and stuff like that.
That'll tweak it a little bit to make it work.
But most of it is really basic and it's just straight generate a syllable,
generate two syllables.
Sometimes there's different rules for, like, if it's
a starting versus, like, an ending syllable.
Like, if there's certain letters or sounds that aren't allowed, then it will handle
that in the generators and all that based off how many syllables the name will have.
And your program is an interesting thing.
You keep saying it's just for you.
But, like, a lot of conlangers have...
Who have some programming expertise have come up with
some kind of program that assists other conlangers.
Do you think you would ever, like, build a generator that
other people would be more, like, useful for other people?
I've had a lot of people ask about that.
It is something that I would potentially consider in the future for just the very
strict naming language part of it because that's all very reusable.
I would have to do a lot of changes because, like, I have a
lot of rules that are just baked into, like, what I find...
pronounceable in general and also, like, I don't use IPA.
So, like, you would have to...
Like, I will have representations of, like, CH is, like, one letter or one sound
in my program because, like, with IPA, like, CH is, like, that's a sound versus,
like... Like, I make some of those differentiations.
But a lot of it, like, I feel like if people were actually doing it, they'd, like.
It's just so strict in how I do it to make it make sense for me that I'm not sure if
tons of people would be interested in it and also, like, all the stuff that I do
for, like, the spell language where I actually have, like, grammatical
structures and stuff like that in it.
None of that's in, like, the base program.
So, if I... I don't know.
And I'd also need a UI because I just, like, I hit the run button and it vomits
everything out that I want in the terminal.
So, like, it's very far away from ever being usable by someone who isn't a Java
programmer with my... exact same goals.
But it's something I'm considering to one day, like, people could check it out at
GitLab or something, you know, if they really want to.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It probably would need some more customizability and some more, yeah.
Yes.
But that's a good segue to the next topic is...
So, you started out with just naming languages.
Now, you have done a spell language.
Yes.
And can you tell me about your approach to creating a spell language?
So, my big project and, like, the goals of the book are important here where I...
It's...
I kind of call it, like, Six of Crows, but for nerds.
And so, I...
It's sort of, like, an excuse for me to really dive into the, like, world building
magic system linguistic stuff of this world.
Because it's very plot relevant.
So, I have, like, one of my characters is a linguist.
One is, you know, a witch or a spellcaster.
One's an alchemist.
Like, they have different specialties that they're, like, super, you know,
super great at.
And one of the things they have to do is they have
these grimoires that have codified spells in them.
And the only way to, you know, complete the heist that they're trying to
do at the end of the book is to translate enough of this text to...
Basically figure out, like, what spells were originally used, what spells can they
use to then, you know, break past this, you know, whatever.
And so, I knew that I needed to, like, since translation is an active part
in the plot of the book, and also in figuring out, like, there's obviously
going to be mistakes, things they do wrong, things they use incorrectly.
So, I wanted to create an actual spell language
where you're seeing the spells that people are using.
You're hearing them.
You're hearing the pieces, and you're seeing them in the book.
And I wanted them to be small enough that people could look at them and,
like, maybe pick up on some patterns and maybe sort of see, like, oh, like,
I understand why that didn't do what they thought it was going to do.
And also just for me to understand.
(laugh)
Like, I have to have very rigid structures in
everything that I do from a magic perspective.
So, like, I have a whole chemistry system for my potions in that book just because I
need to understand, like, how to do everything.
If the reader never understands it.
So, I kind of just started for the spells with, like, I wanted
it to be able to, like, not be these super long sentences.
Like, I wanted it to be, like, short little things that people could pick
up on patterns a little bit more easily, but would also lend
itself towards having a lot of mistakes and translations.
So, that's sort of, like, the goal that it started with of, like, you know,
you would have the spirit name that you're commanding or asking to do something.
You have your command clause and then you have
the spell, like, of what you're asking them to do.
And then, so, very early on when I was chatting about it with the people in my
Discord, they were like, oh, you should look into, like, polysynthetic languages
because that would sort of fit that scheme of
how I wanted it to be presented in the book.
So, then I, like, watched some videos on that and then, like, from there I just
sort of worked with these, like, like, I basically built, like,
a formula almost and started expanding, like, you know.
So, like, you know, saying something like burn that tree is pretty simple compared
to, like, oh, I want you to, you know, water all the plants in this greenhouse
until, you know, the plants are happy, right?
Like, very different levels.
And I've sort of been building up the, I guess, like, sentence or grammatical
complexity so I can have some of those more complicated spells in it within the
frame of, like, a polysynthetic language.
Oh, okay.
Yeah, so, that is interesting.
I found that when, at least in the intro stream that you did that for that,
it was interesting that you were talking about, like,
this very formulaic structure that you just outlined.
Yeah.
And you were just going to be, like, I'm just going to stick to building
out the structures that I need for this formula.
Mm-hmm.
And, like, saying, like, you need some kind...
Kind of, like, imperative form because of this and such stuff like that.
Whereas, like, I kind of did talk about what structures were important at the
beginning of my, like, Tongues and Runes streams.
But I ended up creating full languages, like, I created a whole Draconic language
before I started making spells.
And I just want to talk about, like...
It is interesting...
That you have this, like, spell formula.
Mm-hmm.
That's two pieces to this.
First thing is, like, do you find times when that sort
of, like, rigid structure has been limiting to you?
And also, have you run into times when it's you
unexpectedly needed more structure than you thought you did?
Mm-hmm.
So, for this project, and, you know, I don't know if, like, what the cause and
effect was, like, what came first, chicken or the egg, whatever.
But the use case and the relevancy of the language in my book is very, very...
It is very formulaic.
Like, it is...
It is not a language that people speak.
It is not a language that any modern person in my book is fluent in.
It's something that, you know, there's a group of people way back when
that used to understand it and wrote these grimoires.
Mm-hmm.
But for the most part, it's the only language that can basically be heard by spirits.
But the spirits don't talk back to you.
There's no, like...
There's no other way for this language to really be used
within the context of my book than literally just these spells.
I could, like, create something where it could be relevant, but, like, it's not...
It doesn't make any sense for my plot.
So, that already was very, very limited.
Um...
And also, like, again, I joked about this,
but, like, I'm the preschooler of conlangers.
Like, this was a very much, like, a baby step of just, you know,
trying to expand...
Like, going from naming languages to something that has
literally any grammar at all, like, is a huge leap for me.
So, like, I've been trying to, like, really take it slow and kind of
expand things out so that I understand them.
Like, the idea of making a full conlang is, like, so overwhelming to me.
Like, I know I've gotten...
Like, my...
At this point now, my spell language has, like, a lot of
stuff in it, but it definitely isn't a full conlang yet.
But I've sort of...
I guess I've been doing it, like, with the baby steps, right?
Like, where you mentioned, like, running into things where you need more.
And there's nothing in my formula that
necessarily makes it not possible to expand it.
So, I've found that, like, I mostly do it on streams.
With a lot of people on my stream that actually know things about language,
which is really necessary.
But every time I've needed to go, like...
Like, I started with those really simple spells.
And when I've added more complicated ones, like ones with conditional clauses or,
like, futurist... Future, like, clauses to end the spell state.
Like, stuff like that where it's gotten more complicated.
I've just sort of been expanding it bit by bit and adding how, like...
Like, the framework...
The frameworks I have are there, like, for how the language would work.
It's just I haven't developed those other parts of it or how it would fit into it.
So, like, it hasn't necessarily been limiting.
I just have to, as I need to do another thing, I have to then figure out,
okay, like, how am I actually going to do that?
Like, I know it's head final and I know that because
it's polysynthetic, these types of things group together.
So, like, even though it's a different type of clause, these determiners get
pulled in with the verb parts.
And, like, I can reuse the rules I have to expand it.
It just...
I kind of have to take it with those baby steps.
But it hasn't, like... I haven't ran into anything that I'm like, well, dang.
I can't... You know, this is insurmountable.
I started out too limited.
I haven't ran into that.
It is interesting to hear your perspective as someone who is a writer first.
And then decided to do conlangs just for what you needed.
Yeah.
Because for me, like, conlanging is my art form.
And then I have tried to put it into novels, but it's, you know...
Yeah, it's hard.
It hasn't...
I haven't published anything about that yet.
And now I am making conlangs on YouTube and trying to put them out there for people.
For people to use in D&D campaigns.
So, it's interesting to see your perspective and saying, okay, well,
really, I just have a very strictly defined structure that I want to work with.
And that's where I'm going to live for the rest of the project.
Whereas for me, like...
But I mean, I want to...
It may be also down to different styles for the spells you're writing.
Because you had at the outset a formula in mind that all spells would follow.
Whereas for me, it's like I have general ideas of what kinds of statements,
what kinds of phrases will be there.
But I build out a whole language and build out some
poetry conventions in order to, like, accomodate what I might need.
So, it's interesting to see that different approach.
Can you tell me more about the interaction with the
chat and how you are learning some things from them?
Like, can you come up...
Can you give me some more, like, specific instances of where you had a
question and someone knew something that you...
You need to know?
Because I have that experience as well.
Yeah.
Like, I'm trying to build some, like, not based on Celtic language,
but callbacks to Celtic languages in my current language.
And I got a couple of people here and there that actually speak Celtic
languages, which is useful because I don't.
So, like, for you, what are some, like, specific examples of things where
you had a question and someone delivered information that helped you along?
Yeah.
So, I mean, I will say that probably, like, a very large percentage of this
stuff has come from the chat from some way or another.
But the way it'll typically go is I have, like, an idea of what I need to do, right?
So, maybe I'm like, okay, we need to make... figure out how to actually create
the verb roots of my, like, verb chunks or verb clauses or whatever.
And so, I'm like, okay, well, you know...
I need to find a way to, like, how do I want to do this?
Do I want to have specific words that encompass every verb?
Do I want to have, like, something more where I
have, like, roots that then get turned into verbs?
And I was leaning towards wanting to have,
more restricted, like, base roots to it.
So, someone was like, oh, like, what if you just have, you know,
a bunch of things, then you use verbalizing suffixes...
to actually turn all of these words into verbs?
And I'm like, oh, that's cool.
And, like, I googled it.
And I'm like, yeah, that fits what I'm trying to do.
So, we started setting them up.
People were throwing out ideas of, like, oh,
like, what if you have this kind of a verbalizer?
And what are you going to do if it's already a verb and you can't, like...
Like, I had some examples that we would try to, like...
Things that I wanted to be able to translate at the end.
And one of them was, like, stir this potion, right?
This liquid.
And so, I'm like, well, stir.
Like, how would I verbalize a noun?
A basic noun to make a verb out of that?
And they're like, well, okay, you need a base verbalizing suffix that just is,
like, a default if the word is already a verb.
And so, it was just very much a lot of back
and forth of, like, I know sort of what I want.
But I have no idea linguistically how to accomplish that.
And so, everyone in the chat would, like, point out
ideas of, like, oh, like, here are some options.
And then I'd think through, like, these are the spells I want to create.
Do I need that?
Can I use something I already have for that?
And they're basically count as, like, like, if a person actually knows
stuff, you know, and has ideas, that the chat is my brain.
And I'm just, like, making the decisions.
Because I know nothing.
Like, I know nothing.
(laugh)
But surely you're learning some things.
Yeah, I'm definitely learning.
Like, I'm learning a lot.
I definitely, like, grammatically, linguistically understand my spell
language a lot more than I do, like, English, for example.
But the way I think, and this is why I think I'm a very unlikely conlanger in
general, but, like, I don't memorize things very well, and I don't make,
like, connections between things very well, and I think it's, like, I have,
like, ADD or whatever, so, like, my brain just doesn't do that very well,
so, like, learning language in general for me has always been very, what's the term,
like, intrinsic versus extrinsic, like, where I don't learn it through rules.
So, like, I really struggle.
I really struggle during, like, language classes growing up, but,
like, in the cases where I had to actually communicate with people in other
languages, like, I picked up languages a lot faster that way, or I picked it up
from reading, but, like, so, like, it's definitely been a struggle for me,
but that's why, a part of why on my streams I have, like, that big PowerPoint
where everything's super documented, and everything in my program is a lot
more, like, rigid and documented than it probably needs to be, and that's just
because I will forget the second I move to another language.
So, like, I'm like, what did we, what did we decide there?
Like, my chat has to remind me constantly that I'm, like, head final versus,
you know, head initial or whatever, and I'm like, crap, what is this again?
Everyone's like, it's head final.
You're good.
Just keep going.
And I'm like, oh, okay, okay.
Like, I just, I don't know.
My memory's not great.
So, like, it's slow, slow going, but...
Yeah, yeah.
And that is interesting.
I mean, but the thing is...
Whether you do on head initial or head final, that seems like a basic thing,
but there are a lot of moving parts to creating a language.
Even if you are trying to be, even if you are trying to minimize your effort and do
this, there's still going to be a lot of stuff.
Because, I mean, how many spells are you working with here?
Um, I mean, I haven't created that many.
I probably have a couple dozen that I've actually created.
But the, the way I'm building it, like, the actual...
I have a differentiation between the, like, grammatical words.
There's, like, a term for this, but I can't remember what it is.
My chat taught me it at some point, and I forgot.
But, like, the grammatical words versus the, like, root words, you know?
Like, my base nouns and my base verbs.
Like, those, like, that part of the lexicon is pretty basic right now,
just because I haven't had to build a lot of things out.
But...
I have all the, most of the grammatical part of it all developed and figured out.
So, like, with just generating a word for, like, tree, I could make, you know,
tons more spells because I have all the other building blocks.
Right, right, right.
But that is, that is quite a lot of work, a lot, a lot of things to build,
and there's a lot of things to keep track of.
And, you know, even, like, experienced conlangers can forget about...
How things work.
You talk to David and Jesse, and they're, they talk about how important it is to
have good documentation, because they have had situations where they've forgotten
things, especially David, because he's, he's a little bit less organized.
Yeah.
And, you know, if I were to leave a language alone for a while and come back
to it, I might struggle with certain aspects of it, you know, like,
I go back to Ndăkaga, if I,
if I took, like, a year off of it, and I come back to it, even though I know
how it works, like, the tripartite cases, I'd go in there, and, like, "What do I use,
accusative or nominative here?
I'm not sure."
Things like that.
So, it is, it is interesting that you've got sort of the second brain in chat,
and they are helping you through it
I will ask, do you think in the future that you might develop to a point where
you want to create a full language that maybe you introduce some dialogue into
your book, and you want the, want the full language for that?
So, I think, I think it depends.
And I think, again, I think it's all very story specific.
I imagine that all the different parts.
Parts of a language I will create at some point,
whether or not they're in the same language or not.
But like one of the things that I've, I've thought about with, like if I was
having like a story where there was like, you know, two political groups and there
was a lot of interactions and like one of the plot
things is that they don't speak the same language, right?
Like where it would actually be relevant to have someone be talked at in another
language that they don't necessarily understand.
Like, I could see having to develop like a full conlang for that.
But the, the limitations with like writing a book is that like the reader doesn't
speak the language.
So it is meaningless to them.
And so they will, in most cases, right, they're just going to skim.
Like if you're reading and then you have something
that's in like those italic other language, you know...
Gibbely bits, whatever, they're going to be like, I don't know what that means,
skim it, and then go to the next line, right?
Whereas, like, you can do it like in a limited way, right?
But like, someone's not going to like, read a book and
be sitting there and being like, how do I pronounce that?
What does that mean?
Like, if it's in another language.
So I've, I don't know if I would ever find a case for
like a full, like 100% full conlang would be relevant.
I would think that it'd be most likely if I end up doing that.
Like, what do they call them?
But like a universe where you have a lot of stories that are set in a larger
universe, like the Grishaverse, the Cosmere, like in those cases,
if I had a language that was going to be used throughout a lot of things,
then I could see creating a full conlang because I
use it in different little bits and pieces everywhere.
But all the books I've done so far, like single books, maybe duologies,
where I'm not going to have a lot of opportunities to
reuse a language in different ways.
So it's like, however, it's, it's relevant to use
it in this is kind of been the limitation so far.
Yeah.
So that that is interesting.
And that is something that I have thought about in terms of like, where,
where, where in media would, would there be more of a
demand for like a language sketch versus a larger conlang?
And it.
It does sort of the, the, the idea of how much you're going to spend time with this
particular culture fits into it, you go with, you go with something like
Star Wars, and Star Wars has not had a bad, not had a great record for languages,
the way that they, they do it is not what they, the way they did it at the start,
definitely was not,
to my liking.
More recently, there have been some, I think,
I think there is a Mandalorian language and there is,
there's like there's a sign language for the Tusken Raiders.
I'm not sure what the quality of it is.
But yeah, but also with Star Wars, definitely, I would approach it
differently, but there are all these little snippets of different languages
that are, that are spoken all over the place that.
One character says one line and it's done.
And it's like, okay, I would make something, but I would make like a sketch
that has enough to get that one line from the script in.
And then I'd have like a variety of different ways to do names, which
obviously they don't do.
(laugh)
But then you go with something like Defiance, which Dave Peterson worked on.
You have like these, I think it's like five alien
cultures together that they are all going to be there.
So you kind of want to develop that more because
like a TV series didn't last very long, but so yeah.
I can understand that thing.
The one thing about like people will just gloss over the conlang text is that is
true for most readers, but the people who get into it, and it depends on how popular
your book gets, how many of those people you encounter, right?
But the people who do get into it can really get into it and start to analyze.
Even with very small amount of data, they're going to at
least be looking closely and seeing if you are consistent.
Right.
Like there's definitely like, you have to, how much of that kind of stuff you put in,
like you really have to gauge by what type of readers you have, but also like
narrative focus, I think is, is pretty important in that too.
Because like, if say, if you have someone who is a princess of kingdom A
And they're shipped over to kingdom B and they're trying to navigate this really
high, like high stakes tense situation, but they don't speak their language.
The things that the people are saying to them as they're trying to understand
what's happening, like that has a lot of narrative focus where like, if someone is
saying something like you might pick up on, like you would have more narrative
impetus to try and figure out what's going on as
the characters trying to figure it out versus like.
If someone's like walking through a bar and there's
just like side conversations that have no relevancy.
Like there's like different weights of that too, that I think would affect how
much people would focus on it and thus how, you know, for a general average,
like how much people would be likely to, you know,
really try and figure it out and focus on it.
Yeah.
I, I, and it's like that for every aspect of world building, I think.
Yeah.
And it kind of can depend.
And it can depend on what kind of story you're telling too.
I can understand the perspective of if it's not as pot
relevant, you're not going to spend as much time on it.
Like thinking about other aspects of world building, like there are people who will
like laser in also on like descriptions of
clothing and try to fit them into a time period.
Even, even if it's like a fantasy story that doesn't necessarily fit into the same
technology level as people are expecting.
Yeah.
But like how often are clothes and important plot point.
Outside of certain circumstances, political
drama with court intrigue, it might be important.
But it's, it's.
It's like... it's like variable.
Things like, you know, you do a lot of work on geology and stuff and building
your planets and, you know, how much of the natural resources are important.
People talk about, you know, George R.
R.
Martin famously criticized Tolkien on, like, what is Aragorn's tax policy?
Well, the style of story that Tolkien was telling is not concerned about that.
Right.
Yeah.
(laugh)
So, like, me coming in as a conlanger... I'm
sort of trying to get your perspective on that.
Me coming in as a conlanger and as a linguist...
I'm more focused on the linguistic aspect and, like,
linguistic realism than a lot of people would be.
But I can understand, like, if you are dealing with all these different moving
parts in the world building, then sometimes you might
have different ideas of, like, how much this is important.
Yeah.
And I think...
I think one of the ways that has really helped me in going from, like,
someone who spent, like, seven years working on the world building for a world,
like, back when I was first seriously writing, to being like, you know,
I'm not accomplishing anything by doing this, to being a lot more focused and
being able to get through more projects and stuff like that.
But I find that, like, readers have only so much, like, mental capacity to kind of
pick up on things.
And I don't mean that as, like, a negative, but I mean, like, if they're reading and
they want to be immersed in a story, right?
Like, everything you change that they have to be
thinking about is going to slow them down a little bit.
And there's different, like, genre expectations, right?
Like, a high fantasy, like, a reader going into that is going to be preparing to,
like, hold a lot of stuff in their brain versus, like, you know, another genre.
defaults right now in the genres because, like, if it's a...
High medieval, you know, European-based fey realm, right?
Mm-hmm.
There's a lot of expectations that readers already know
with all of that stuff that you don't have to explain.
Like, you don't have to explain how a medieval society works.
You don't have to explain how fey works.
Like, if you go with all those, like, default things...
Yeah.
And everything that you do that's, like, different.
So, like, if you go into, like, a Sanderson book, for example,
like, you have to pick up on so many things that changes society.
...that changes the way that you have to interpret what's happening.
Understanding how that magic system works.
Understanding how the society works.
Understanding the sayings they make.
All that extra stuff.
A reader's only going to be able to pull so much of that at a time.
And having to be very intentional about, okay, what are
the things you're going to ask your reader to understand?
And if it's not relevant to the story, you're best
served choosing things that are more relevant.
It's something that at least helps my brain with
choosing and being intentional about that stuff.
Because it doesn't have to be plot relevant.
Because having a good tone, having an immersive feel, having a certain
experience of reading the prose, there's a lot
of different goals with storytelling in general.
And choosing what things you want to include for those different goals and how
much you're going to ask your reader to figure out for all of that.
If you're like, okay, I want you to understand this whole new type of time.
We're going to have a whole different calendar, a whole different clock,
the way time works is going to be different.
We're going to have tons of sayings about time.
Your reader's going to have to learn that and understand that and keep that up in
their mind as they're reading so that every time it comes up, they're like,
ah, yes, so that links back to this and how I understand it.
It's like, okay, that's a week, right?
And if there's no reason to do that, that...
Mental energy could be spent, like, understanding
a conlang instead that's more relevant, you know?
Yeah, yeah.
That is interesting, because, like, talking about the way that time works,
you know, I go to, I think of Farscape.
And I don't even remember what all the units were, but I think there is,
like, a unit of time that they use that's, like, about half an hour.
And you do eventually, you can get into it and kind of understand it, but it's not
necessarily brought up that often.
I think there was a particular episode where it
was, like, particularly important to track the time.
And they mentioned this over and over.
And I read one of Matt Colville's books, and he had,
like, a system where he had something called a turn.
And he had a whole, like, explanation of how it's based
on the rotation of one of the moons of the planet.
And it's really interesting.
I don't know how relevant it was.
It definitely did give the feeling of this is a
different world and tied in some other things.
So it's...
And so that's what you were talking about.
It doesn't necessarily have to be plot relevant if it gives you a different feel.
But at the same time, like, there could be a situation where you have something like
that, but it's, like, brought up.
And it's not... central to the story.
So people don't really talk in time references
or distance references or things like that.
Right.
But we're talking about sort of the world -building iceberg.
Yeah.
And how much below the waterline do you actually need
to construct before you actually write your story?
Because if it's, like, if you do so too much,
then you're spending all your time on that.
Yeah.
I definitely agree with that a lot.
And I think, like, there's definitely that difference
between things that are there for aesthetic purpose, right?
Like, you'll mention something because it's part of the world.
Like, oh, like, times work slightly different.
But the reader doesn't need to memorize and remember
the specific details to understand things in the book.
It's just, you know, like, set dressing, sort of.
Yeah.
To the... To the, you know, culture or the society and stuff.
Like, there's definitely a difference between, like, that side of world-building
and then the, like, you need to remember this because if you don't understand this,
you are not going to understand any of the things that are going to happen, you know?
Yeah.
And you can think about, like, things like how, like, if people are
taking quotes from your book out of context, how many, like, extra words are
there that people are not going to understand?
So, it is very interesting to, like, think in those terms, too,
of the presentation of the world through the story.
We're running close to time, but I want to mention for the people who are watching on
video, there is a globe behind you, and that does not look like Earth.
Is that your world?
That's one of the ones I'm building, yeah.
I think that's actually the...
Potion World one, where that little island is where my story is taking place.
Oh, I think... have I seen that stream?
Have you... I think you were streaming building up, like,
the flora and fauna and then into the cultural stuff of that?
Yeah, yeah.
So, I've done a lot of... as I've been building out the, like, societal...
Like, how I want to link going from...
I don't like geographic determinism, like, at all.
Like, if you go into my guides, like, that's not...
Right.
Right, but, like, there's some, like, things that, like, I like it to matter.
So, like, I like it to be, like, multi-source for, like, how, like,
societies and cultures develop and stuff like that.
But, yeah, this is the one where I was playing around with a lot of those
concepts for figuring out, like, how I want
to have all that linked and mapped and stuff.
I think I have a few videos where I'm playing around with this world in general.
Yeah.
That's really cool.
How did you get a globe like that?
I just, like, bought a globe, like, a regular one, and I sanded it down.
And then I used Sharpie to go over the lat -long lines.
And then I just exported, like...
I put my map in, like, 3D software and exported it in a bunch of different,
like, projections that would make it easier to see different parts of it with
the same lat-long lines.
And then I'm just, like, hand-putting it on the...
the globe.
Oh.
Oh, you drew it by hand onto the globe?
Yes.
Okay.
That's...
That's amazing.
It's a lot of effort.
Yeah.
That is, like, super interesting.
That is super cool.
It'll be done in five years.
Yeah.
One last thing I want to say is, like, we were talking about, like, the limits.
I kind of think that I have a reverse thing going on with my own stuff because,
for me, in Tongues and Runes, the language is the focus.
And then I'm saying, like, a lot of other world-building things, I am, like,
being selective about what I determine about that because, on the one hand,
language touches everything.
You kind of have to...
If you're building a language, you have to kind of know all the things.
However, I'm making these languages for other people's D&D
campaigns that I don't know anything about the setting for.
So I'm thinking about, like, I can't be super specific about geography.
I can't be super specific about, like, the structure of the planet in the
prime material plane.
I have to sort of select.
And, like, for, like, Ndakaga, for dragons, a lot of the world-building
that I did end up doing was, like, changing things about dragon physiology, right?
I made them...
I gave them magnetoreception.
I gave them the...
I determined that they are obligate carnivores, which I don't know if D&D...
actually states that in lore, but it makes sense.
And I, like, gave them tetrachromatic vision.
And then for the fey one, I'm like, I'm not going to talk about who
individuals are in the fey world, but I felt a little bit more free of
putting my stamp on, okay, this is my conception of what they call the Feywild.
I'll call it Faerie.
And it's...
It's also, like, my world-building decisions end up being, like, in the
service of being more neutral, too.
Right.
So I won't elaborate too much about this because this podcast is about you,
but it is interesting that I have, like, a mirror image of that going on
where, like, I'm building language, but other world-building stuff I have
reasons to be sketchy on.
Yeah, it's definitely one of those things where there's a lot of different ways to
go about it, and it's something that I run across both with conlanging, but also with
world -building in general.
Like, I have that very intense, like, physical world-based, like,
world-building guide of creating a physical world from
plate tectonics to air circulation to ocean circulation.
And there's a lot of people that will take that way further.
Like, they'll go in and do, like, G plates and build, like, tectonic history.
And, like, they go really hard because, like, that is the thing that they're doing.
Whereas like in my projects, I don't actually
use my whole guide on my personal projects.
I use bits and pieces of them.
But I had to figure out the whole guide in order to
like understand how to extrapolate small pieces of it.
And it's just like very different focuses of like, I don't know what everyone does.
I find it fascinating, you know, different focuses, different ways to go
about things like it's so different for everybody.
I mean, talk about like, for me, when I have a novel project that is like,
it's there.
I have a couple of actual like novel projects that are there.
And like, I tried building worlds, but like, the plate
tectonics and all that stuff doesn't interest me very much.
And I end up just like not even using a map at all.
I mean, you don't have to, you know what I mean?
Yeah, it's like, and, and, well, it depends, I think, on that.
That's another thing that depends on the story.
I have, if, if I'm doing an idea that involves travel from place to place,
I might need a map in order to understand, like, where people are.
But I have like, the most recent one just like happens in...
like, one place.
So I'm like, I don't know if I really need to know this stuff beyond like,
very sketchy of like, what this particular island, I don't know if I think it's going
to be on an island, but it's like this particular place that has the magic
university, like, sketchy ideas of what different areas exist, right?
So it's, it is interesting, like, some people are going...
going to focus on... focusing on what you're interested
in will make that part interesting in the story, I think.
Yeah.
Yeah, exactly.
Um, so, uh, that's about time.
I, I... I'll cut this out if it doesn't happen, but, um, we have a plan that,
uh, this is, this is gonna be like, I mean, this is a podcast episode,
but there's also... there's also going to be, like, one piece of, of, uh, a collab,
as they call it, or a co-lab, I don't know, people pronounce it different ways,
but like, uh, so, at some point, I am going to go talk to Madeline on her
side, and then you'll, you'll be hearing more from, of her asking questions to me
about advice for, for fleshing out languages
or, or however, however we're going to do that
Um, so, um, as, as of this recording, we're, we're going to be planning that,
um, but, uh, but, um, depending on how things up, maybe they'll be up at around
the same time, the two, the two different videos.
So, uh, you can go to her channel and check that
part out where she's asking me the questions.
Yeah.
Um, so, um, Madeline
Before we go, do you have any, like, final advice for all the,
all the conlangers out there?
And, and, uh, for any of the writers who are on here
interested in incorporating conlangs into their writing?
Um, I mean, I think my biggest piece of advice is just
don't do things just because you think you have to do them.
Like, I think that there's, there's so many things that you
can do in the grand scheme of worldbuilding and conlanging and telling stories and all of that.
If you're hearing about all this stuff, and you're a writer and you're like,
"Oh, that sounds awful," like, don't do it.
Like there are easy generators and stuff you can use online to do it, or if it
does sound interesting, like, go for it.
And you know, there's a lot of different resources out there, like I know...
I know Jessie and David have done some talks, the Petersons, on naming languages
There's a handful of them around YouTube, like..
There's plenty of places to go and like learn about how to that at a really high level.
But I found being intentional is the most important thing of laying out like,
this is my goal, this is how much time I want to spend on this, like, and then
trying to stick to that, to an extent, like, I mean, if the inspiration takes you
then go for it but like don't feel like you have to do stuff just because you have
to do it if it's not interesting to you and I think something that David Peterson
mentioned in one of his like videos online is that you can always just pay a
conlanger to do something for you if you don't want to do it yourself, like,
you know, that's definitely an option.
And I was going to get to that.
Like, so...
because, I mean, authors tend to be kind of independent and kind of low on budget,
but it is an option out there.
There's the LCS Jobs Award you can go to or if you happen to be in places where
you're, like, adjacent to conlangers in a community then you can, like, contact
people and see if people want to collaborate with you and work with you on things.
Definitely but, like, definitely people welcome conlangers will welcome working
with authors on things, especially if there's payment involved, but,
you know, it's up to you to, like, work out what things are worth to you and
all of that.
But, yeah.
I advocate for anybody who's interested to try to learn to do the conlanging.
But, I also will advocate for... yeah, you can hire conlangers if you've got the
funds to do that.
And that is also...
it's like bringing in an expert on anything else.
Like, an expert consultant on anything else.
Like your...
A lot of people have like consultants on like beta readers who specialize in
different things and different like
Oh, yeah, like sensitivity readers and...
sensitivity readers things and or people
who have specialized knowledge in different parts of the world building.
It's just like that if you want to involve someone.
But anyway, thank you, Madeline, for coming on.
It's been really interesting hearing your perspective as like most of my guests are
conlangers first and they're thinking about the conlang in the first place.
You thinking about first, what conlang things do I need for my story?
And then how can I learn how to do that?
Part of it is very interesting to me.
And I hope people have enjoyed it.
And once again, thank you for coming on.
And hopefully people will see me on on on your side.
Yeah.
And I'm going to say happy conlanging.
Yeah.
Happy conlanging.
Thank you for having me on.
This has been really fun.
Special thanks to my patrons on Patreon.
If you go over there right now, you can get...
Early access to episodes.
You can get access to scripts for my solo episodes.
And you can go get access to exclusive polls for Tongues and Runes.
Thank you to...
Mintaka, Kenan Kigunda, Conor Stuart Roe, Jesse, Kaye, Alex Rossell Hayes,
Vyren Patrick, Tabby, Alexis Hugelmann
Silvia Sotomayor, Grammar Antifa, Wu Mingshuai, Grakkagrunk, Sigourney
Hunter, iloivar Jaana Mentoleum, Niklas Norblad, Anthony Docimo,
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Asa, Horn Bori.
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