1 01:00:14,958 --> 01:00:18,750 [George Corley]: Welcome to Conlangery, the podcast about constructed languages and the 2 01:00:18,750 --> 01:00:25,083 [George Corley]: people who create them. I'm George Corley and with me over in Germany we 3 01:00:25,166 --> 01:00:27,458 [George Corley]: have CD Covington 4 01:00:28,916 --> 01:00:29,208 [CD Covington]: Hi. 5 01:00:30,458 --> 01:00:39,125 [George Corley]: Yeah, so I had you on, you have a column for Tor that covers science fiction 6 01:00:39,166 --> 01:00:45,916 [George Corley]: and fantasy stuff for, from a linguistic perspective, and you've got a 7 01:00:45,958 --> 01:00:50,833 [George Corley]: YouTube channel that covers the science fiction fantasy linguistics, but 8 01:00:51,375 --> 01:00:57,958 [George Corley]: the most sort of important thing that we were going to, the most like 9 01:00:57,958 --> 01:01:03,916 [George Corley]: pressing thing we were going to cover is you are writing a book about world 10 01:01:03,958 --> 01:01:08,666 [George Corley]: building, linguistic world building, for science fiction and fantasy properties. 11 01:01:08,750 --> 01:01:17,375 [George Corley]: So, um, I, maybe we can start out with what is your background in linguistics 12 01:01:17,875 --> 01:01:25,541 [George Corley]: and how did you get interested in this topic? It's sort of related to conlanging. 13 01:01:25,666 --> 01:01:28,916 [George Corley]: I'm sure you encounter conlangs 14 01:01:29,333 --> 01:01:29,583 [CD Covington]: Yeah. 15 01:01:29,583 --> 01:01:35,000 [George Corley]: as you are talking about all this stuff, but also like a broader world building 16 01:01:35,041 --> 01:01:38,791 [George Corley]: thing. So like how did you get interested in this and involved in this 17 01:01:39,000 --> 01:01:41,916 [George Corley]: and you know give us a little bit of a background there. 18 01:01:43,125 --> 01:01:48,333 [CD Covington]: Yeah, I got my master's in linguistics from the University of Georgia in 2019. 19 01:01:48,833 --> 01:01:50,500 [CD Covington]: I wrote about German verbs. 20 01:01:53,416 --> 01:02:00,041 [CD Covington]: But I've been reading science fiction since I was 12 or something. And I've 21 01:02:00,041 --> 01:02:05,500 [CD Covington]: been writing since forever and I started writing science fiction about 20, 22 01:02:05,500 --> 01:02:09,625 [CD Covington]: 25 years ago maybe more seriously than I had been when I was, you know, a kid. 23 01:02:10,333 --> 01:02:17,916 [CD Covington]: And I love reading, obviously. And I was just finishing up my master's when 24 01:02:17,958 --> 01:02:23,125 [CD Covington]: I had the idea that I could write about linguistics in science fiction, 25 01:02:23,125 --> 01:02:27,333 [CD Covington]: because I was reading a lot of, well, let's see, Arrival had come out 26 01:02:27,333 --> 01:02:33,541 [CD Covington]: fairly recently, and The Expanse was just airing for the first time on TV, and 27 01:02:33,583 --> 01:02:34,750 [CD Covington]: you can see like 28 01:02:34,750 --> 01:02:37,916 [CD Covington]: the Belta slang, Belta Creole. 29 01:02:38,583 --> 01:02:43,541 [CD Covington]: And I was like, well, maybe I could... do something interesting with this. 30 01:02:44,291 --> 01:02:48,458 [CD Covington]: And I was like, I wrote a little pitch and they were like, yeah, sounds great. 31 01:02:48,750 --> 01:02:54,291 [CD Covington]: So I wrote about Arrival, because it was kind of part of my pitch and I wrote 32 01:02:54,333 --> 01:03:02,500 [CD Covington]: about The Expanse. I wrote about Babel-17 from Chip Delaney from the 70s. It's 33 01:03:02,583 --> 01:03:02,791 [CD Covington]: like 34 01:03:02,791 --> 01:03:03,125 [George Corley]: Oh, interesting. 35 01:03:03,250 --> 01:03:07,708 [CD Covington]: the computer, like it's a computer language that is being taking over people's 36 01:03:07,750 --> 01:03:11,875 [CD Covington]: brains and turning them into like, I don't know, computer, it was. very 37 01:03:12,250 --> 01:03:15,125 [CD Covington]: it was a Chip Delaney book basically it's very strange 38 01:03:15,125 --> 01:03:15,333 [George Corley]: Okay. 39 01:03:15,875 --> 01:03:20,041 [CD Covington]: uh it was very well written with it just also very uh the brain is a computer 40 01:03:20,083 --> 01:03:23,791 [CD Covington]: and can be literally programmed by this programming language that this alien 41 01:03:23,833 --> 01:03:29,166 [CD Covington]: language he's gonna like um well it's fiction right 42 01:03:29,166 --> 01:03:29,375 [George Corley]: Yeah. 43 01:03:29,375 --> 01:03:31,458 [CD Covington]: Right, it's going to like like well it's fiction. 44 01:03:31,458 --> 01:03:33,583 [CD Covington]: That was a lot of... is how i answer a lot of things. 45 01:03:33,625 --> 01:03:39,833 [CD Covington]: well it's fiction but um one of my favorite book series is CJ Cherryh's Foreigner series 46 01:03:40,458 --> 01:03:41,000 [George Corley]: Mm-hmm. 47 01:03:41,916 --> 01:03:50,166 [CD Covington]: and she's not super conlanger but she does invent at least surface level 48 01:03:50,500 --> 01:03:54,250 [CD Covington]: languages for her books. Do 49 01:03:54,458 --> 01:03:56,333 [CD Covington]: Are you familiar with her? 50 01:03:56,833 --> 01:04:04,333 [George Corley]: uh, I, I have read one of her works. I think mostly what she focuses on is 51 01:04:04,333 --> 01:04:08,291 [George Corley]: like these interpreters, right? 52 01:04:08,416 --> 01:04:09,458 [CD Covington]: Yeah, in the Foreigner series, yeah. 53 01:04:09,458 --> 01:04:15,291 [George Corley]: That are between the aliens and the humans and have to like navigate the 54 01:04:15,291 --> 01:04:20,000 [George Corley]: culture and the language. But yeah, it's, it's sort of everything's represented 55 01:04:20,083 --> 01:04:22,708 [George Corley]: as English, except for some isolated words. 56 01:04:23,875 --> 01:04:24,541 [CD Covington]: Mm-hmm. 57 01:04:24,625 --> 01:04:31,541 [CD Covington]: Yeah. And she has... She refers frequently to the structure of their language 58 01:04:31,541 --> 01:04:38,541 [CD Covington]: and how their verb forms require various math, lots of math, because you have 59 01:04:38,541 --> 01:04:41,208 [CD Covington]: to calculate the number of people that are involved in the situation, and that 60 01:04:41,250 --> 01:04:44,750 [CD Covington]: also includes the numerology of the room around you and all this other complicated 61 01:04:44,791 --> 01:04:50,125 [CD Covington]: math just to conjugate your verbs and get your pronouns right. And that's 62 01:04:50,166 --> 01:04:55,791 [CD Covington]: pretty cool, but probably not working any sort of... reality-based anything. 63 01:04:56,291 --> 01:04:58,458 [CD Covington]: But it's really cool because they're aliens and they're very different than 64 01:04:58,500 --> 01:05:02,166 [CD Covington]: humans. They have different psychology, different biology. And that's one 65 01:05:02,208 --> 01:05:06,500 [CD Covington]: of the things that I'm going to get into a lot in my book. How the... 66 01:05:06,500 --> 01:05:13,166 [CD Covington]: How you can do intercultural communication is a big issue at most of her 67 01:05:13,166 --> 01:05:20,416 [CD Covington]: books, really. But in Foreigner especially, the whole way that people, the 68 01:05:20,416 --> 01:05:25,500 [CD Covington]: humans and the atevi, can't understand the word friend. Atevi don't have 69 01:05:25,500 --> 01:05:27,333 [CD Covington]: the concept of love or friend or like. 70 01:05:27,333 --> 01:05:32,583 [CD Covington]: It's fine. They don't have the concept of liking or loving or friendship or 71 01:05:32,583 --> 01:05:37,500 [CD Covington]: anything like that. They have man'chi, which is sort of like a herding instinct 72 01:05:37,500 --> 01:05:42,708 [CD Covington]: that humans don't understand. So when they first met, the humans and the 73 01:05:42,708 --> 01:05:47,583 [CD Covington]: atevi were like, oh, this is great. They're just a little bit weird, but 74 01:05:47,583 --> 01:05:51,916 [CD Covington]: they're like us, so it'll be fine. And the humans basically assumed that 75 01:05:51,916 --> 01:05:57,083 [CD Covington]: the atevi would all be their friends. And the atevi were kind of like, We 76 01:05:57,166 --> 01:06:01,750 [CD Covington]: assume they're going to learn manners someday. Humans never learned manners. 77 01:06:01,750 --> 01:06:07,875 [CD Covington]: It was like a war, and it was great. Humans lost. And they're like, the atevi 78 01:06:07,875 --> 01:06:12,125 [CD Covington]: said, you can stay on this island. Stay over there. And while you're staying on 79 01:06:12,125 --> 01:06:15,291 [CD Covington]: your little island over here, you're going to give us the technology that 80 01:06:15,291 --> 01:06:18,375 [CD Covington]: you brought with you because you're from outer space. And we're not going 81 01:06:18,375 --> 01:06:21,333 [CD Covington]: to be living in our, they're in the steam age. At the time, they had steam 82 01:06:21,375 --> 01:06:27,916 [CD Covington]: locomotives. And part of the treaty was that humans would share the technology. 83 01:06:27,916 --> 01:06:31,291 [CD Covington]: But it had to be translated into the atevi's 84 01:06:31,291 --> 01:06:35,833 [CD Covington]: language using their math, which is a little bit different than human math because 85 01:06:35,875 --> 01:06:38,833 [CD Covington]: there's a lot more of it. They do all the complicated math in their head. 86 01:06:39,916 --> 01:06:41,416 [George Corley]: Right. Okay. 87 01:06:42,291 --> 01:06:44,833 [CD Covington]: Yeah. So 88 01:06:44,833 --> 01:06:47,250 [CD Covington]: That was part of how I got into the whole writing about linguistics and science 89 01:06:47,291 --> 01:06:50,541 [CD Covington]: fiction because you really can. There's so much in there where people who think 90 01:06:50,541 --> 01:06:53,666 [CD Covington]: about it do it. And I want to get more people to think about it. 91 01:06:54,166 --> 01:06:58,958 [George Corley]: Yeah. I mean, the that's an interesting thing when you're talking about 92 01:06:59,125 --> 01:07:09,125 [George Corley]: alien psychology is it can be very much a wide open slate because you 93 01:07:09,166 --> 01:07:16,375 [George Corley]: can predict, I said this on an earlier podcast, like you can, you can sort 94 01:07:16,458 --> 01:07:22,208 [George Corley]: of predict some things about phonology by knowing like what organs they 95 01:07:22,250 --> 01:07:27,208 [George Corley]: have and what, what kinds of either sounds or gestures they could produce, 96 01:07:27,291 --> 01:07:35,416 [George Corley]: right? But the psychological aspect, we probably don't know enough about 97 01:07:36,125 --> 01:07:43,708 [George Corley]: human brain structure. influencing language to actually extrapolate out and figure 98 01:07:43,750 --> 01:07:50,791 [George Corley]: out how alien brain structure would influence language. Right. Um, I mean, 99 01:07:50,791 --> 01:07:59,916 [George Corley]: we can probably have some foundational things about what language does and how it 100 01:07:59,958 --> 01:08:04,875 [George Corley]: would have to work in order to function as a language, but otherwise it's 101 01:08:04,916 --> 01:08:11,833 [George Corley]: pretty open. Uh, I, I do. So I did read a few of your articles for your 102 01:08:11,875 --> 01:08:18,125 [George Corley]: con. Uh, I did read some of your column. Uh, I have to take issue with 103 01:08:18,166 --> 01:08:20,291 [George Corley]: your take on Arrival. Or not, 104 01:08:20,291 --> 01:08:20,333 [CD Covington]: Hmm? 105 01:08:20,541 --> 01:08:23,791 [George Corley]: not Arrival... on Embassy Town for, 106 01:08:23,791 --> 01:08:23,833 [CD Covington]: Uhhh 107 01:08:23,958 --> 01:08:27,750 [George Corley]: from your video, but, uh, no, I, 108 01:08:27,958 --> 01:08:28,458 [CD Covington]: That's all right. 109 01:08:28,458 --> 01:08:35,708 [George Corley]: I mean, it's just a matter of taste. Like, uh, I think we agree that. 110 01:08:35,708 --> 01:08:39,625 [George Corley]: The language of the Hosts is functionally impossible. It 111 01:08:39,750 --> 01:08:39,958 [CD Covington]: Hehehe 112 01:08:40,041 --> 01:08:47,000 [George Corley]: could not happen. I was able to accept that because I felt like the book 113 01:08:47,000 --> 01:08:50,750 [George Corley]: was self-aware about that, especially with the linguist character, like 114 01:08:50,791 --> 01:08:55,500 [George Corley]: pointing out like this doesn't make any sense and then becoming obsessed with 115 01:08:55,541 --> 01:08:58,791 [George Corley]: it. But for you, it just wasn't working, 116 01:08:58,916 --> 01:08:59,833 [CD Covington]: Yeah, 117 01:08:59,875 --> 01:09:00,083 [CD Covington]: yeah, 118 01:09:00,083 --> 01:09:00,291 [George Corley]: I think 119 01:09:00,291 --> 01:09:00,375 [CD Covington]: it just 120 01:09:00,416 --> 01:09:00,875 [George Corley]: another 121 01:09:00,875 --> 01:09:00,916 [CD Covington]: didn't work. 122 01:09:00,958 --> 01:09:06,666 [George Corley]: thing. Yeah. It's another thing to think about is. 123 01:09:06,833 --> 01:09:13,375 [George Corley]: You know, like on this show, most of the time when I'm talking about things 124 01:09:13,375 --> 01:09:19,583 [George Corley]: and the way I'm thinking about things, it's in terms of making a language 125 01:09:19,583 --> 01:09:28,083 [George Corley]: naturalistic and making the world building naturalistic. But what you were 126 01:09:28,083 --> 01:09:34,208 [George Corley]: talking about with the atevi, I think you, you have some idea of balancing 127 01:09:34,958 --> 01:09:39,625 [George Corley]: like the naturalism with the art of it. 128 01:09:40,458 --> 01:09:40,708 [CD Covington]: Mm-hmm. 129 01:09:40,708 --> 01:09:40,875 [George Corley]: Right. 130 01:09:41,875 --> 01:09:42,041 [CD Covington]: Yeah. 131 01:09:42,083 --> 01:09:43,416 [George Corley]: Can you talk a little bit about that? 132 01:09:43,916 --> 01:09:48,833 [CD Covington]: I'm just gonna keep going back to CJ Cherry because she's really good at making 133 01:09:49,041 --> 01:09:51,958 [CD Covington]: aliens that aren't just like people that are painted blue or have pointy 134 01:09:52,083 --> 01:09:55,250 [CD Covington]: ears or whatever. And 135 01:09:55,250 --> 01:09:59,250 [CD Covington]: that's, I mean, like I love the Vulcans, but they're just like people with 136 01:09:59,291 --> 01:10:01,125 [CD Covington]: pointy ears and no feelings. 137 01:10:01,125 --> 01:10:05,875 [CD Covington]: Yeah, the one thing she does that I wish I could do on my own writing a 138 01:10:05,916 --> 01:10:11,500 [CD Covington]: lot better than I do is just develop these societies and the way they work. 139 01:10:12,708 --> 01:10:20,375 [CD Covington]: And then they're just so different from the way people work. and she makes it 140 01:10:20,416 --> 01:10:23,833 [CD Covington]: believable that they make sense. If that makes sense. I don't even know if I'm 141 01:10:23,875 --> 01:10:33,625 [CD Covington]: answering your question right now. But the. So the art part is figuring out 142 01:10:35,083 --> 01:10:39,458 [CD Covington]: how to make something realistic and believable that's not human, if that's 143 01:10:39,458 --> 01:10:42,875 [CD Covington]: what you're going for. If you're just going for making two different human societies 144 01:10:42,916 --> 01:10:48,458 [CD Covington]: on a secondary world planet or whatever, that's... fine and different, 145 01:10:48,500 --> 01:10:51,416 [CD Covington]: but you can still kind of do this sort of thing because they won't have 146 01:10:52,708 --> 01:10:54,666 [CD Covington]: the psychological differences, but you know, whatever. 147 01:10:55,166 --> 01:10:59,541 [CD Covington]: Like the trick is getting your world building down, right? So that's what 148 01:10:59,541 --> 01:11:06,375 [CD Covington]: I'm writing my book about. To get your character, your other culture to seem 149 01:11:06,416 --> 01:11:11,875 [CD Covington]: plausible. And we I we know how to we know how to do that. Writers already 150 01:11:11,916 --> 01:11:20,541 [CD Covington]: do that in things like history and geology, geography, maybe some do geology, 151 01:11:20,666 --> 01:11:21,000 [CD Covington]: I don't know. 152 01:11:21,000 --> 01:11:25,333 [CD Covington]: Your maps of your spacestations. You know, like we... 153 01:11:25,333 --> 01:11:27,166 [CD Covington]: Think about that. Sometimes people even throw 154 01:11:27,166 --> 01:11:30,708 [CD Covington]: in music and whatever, but what people don't really think about as much as 155 01:11:30,708 --> 01:11:36,416 [CD Covington]: I think would be cool is how people use language because that's something 156 01:11:36,458 --> 01:11:41,750 [CD Covington]: we do in day-to-day life. Like I don't, I mean, I'm a linguist. I do think 157 01:11:41,750 --> 01:11:46,250 [CD Covington]: about it all the time, but your average person probably doesn't sit around 158 01:11:46,291 --> 01:11:50,250 [CD Covington]: thinking about, oh, why does that sound like that? And why is, why did, 159 01:11:50,250 --> 01:11:53,666 [CD Covington]: does this dialect work? How is that compared to that dialect? Because that's 160 01:11:53,666 --> 01:11:56,500 [CD Covington]: like what I do all day. Not all day, but... 161 01:11:56,500 --> 01:12:02,750 [CD Covington]: So your characters will be aware of this. Like, you, general, people watching 162 01:12:02,750 --> 01:12:10,083 [CD Covington]: this podcast or listening to it, are aware that people who sound like me 163 01:12:10,083 --> 01:12:18,166 [CD Covington]: are probably white, probably from the East Coast of the United States. kind 164 01:12:18,166 --> 01:12:23,458 [CD Covington]: of thing and probably getting developing, I don't want to say prejudices, 165 01:12:23,458 --> 01:12:28,250 [CD Covington]: but sort of just a sort of like a picture in your head of me. But if I talk 166 01:12:28,250 --> 01:12:31,083 [CD Covington]: kind of like the way I did, I lived in Georgia for four years and I lived 167 01:12:31,083 --> 01:12:34,000 [CD Covington]: in North Carolina for like 20 before that. So I did pick up a bit of Southern 168 01:12:34,000 --> 01:12:39,000 [CD Covington]: in my life. And you get a different picture if somebody talks like that. It's a 169 01:12:39,083 --> 01:12:44,875 [CD Covington]: different person. And so we're aware of this. And if your characters are also 170 01:12:44,875 --> 01:12:51,000 [CD Covington]: aware of this. you're adding that extra layer of something cool. That's 171 01:12:51,000 --> 01:12:54,666 [CD Covington]: kind of the art that I'm trying to get to, I think. People kind of add that 172 01:12:54,666 --> 01:12:55,708 [CD Covington]: extra layer of... 173 01:12:56,208 --> 01:12:56,458 [George Corley]: Yeah. 174 01:12:56,666 --> 01:13:00,500 [CD Covington]: verisimilitude. I've never been able to figure out how to pronounce that word. 175 01:13:02,000 --> 01:13:04,208 [CD Covington]: But does that make sense? 176 01:13:04,666 --> 01:13:06,708 [George Corley]: Yeah, no, you're, you're totally 177 01:13:06,708 --> 01:13:06,791 [CD Covington]: I'm gonna 178 01:13:06,791 --> 01:13:06,958 [George Corley]: making 179 01:13:07,000 --> 01:13:16,666 [George Corley]: sense. And I, I totally agree. And I see, uh, I mean, you've pointed out places 180 01:13:16,708 --> 01:13:20,375 [George Corley]: where authors have done very well with their linguistic world building, 181 01:13:20,458 --> 01:13:29,291 [George Corley]: but very often it is like a side note. Uh, just like something that is 182 01:13:30,250 --> 01:13:38,708 [George Corley]: mentioned. in a character description once and kind of left or it is, you know, mentioned 183 01:13:38,750 --> 01:13:47,791 [George Corley]: on the side. Sometimes there's very, you know, there's, you know, ways of 184 01:13:47,833 --> 01:13:52,958 [George Corley]: describing language that I wish would go away. I, I have said before, 185 01:13:53,458 --> 01:13:57,708 [George Corley]: when an author says a language is guttural, I do not know what that actually 186 01:13:57,750 --> 01:13:58,250 [George Corley]: means. 187 01:13:58,250 --> 01:13:58,833 [CD Covington]: Mm-mm. They're probably, 188 01:13:58,833 --> 01:13:58,958 [George Corley]: It's 189 01:13:58,958 --> 01:14:05,583 [CD Covington]: they're like, yeah, like they mean it sounds like German probably, but like. 190 01:14:05,583 --> 01:14:13,416 [George Corley]: Yeah. I, but like, yeah, it's, it's just, you know, guttural kind of has a 191 01:14:13,416 --> 01:14:16,666 [George Corley]: meaning in linguistics, but not really. 192 01:14:16,666 --> 01:14:17,791 [George Corley]: And then 193 01:14:17,791 --> 01:14:22,708 [George Corley]: the, the languages, the real world languages that I have heard described 194 01:14:22,708 --> 01:14:25,208 [George Corley]: as guttural are like, really? 195 01:14:26,208 --> 01:14:31,541 [George Corley]: Like I've heard Cantonese described as guttural. I'm like, really? I'm not sure 196 01:14:31,541 --> 01:14:35,208 [George Corley]: about that, but, uh, yeah. there's 197 01:14:35,208 --> 01:14:42,166 [George Corley]: There's so much like untapped potential in a lot of works for that. And you know. 198 01:14:42,166 --> 01:14:49,291 [George Corley]: We're here, you know, my podcast is geared towards conlangers and there's a 199 01:14:49,291 --> 01:14:54,791 [George Corley]: lot of linguistic world buildings that can go behind the conlangs, but you don't 200 01:14:54,791 --> 01:14:57,166 [George Corley]: necessarily have to have a full conlang. Right? 201 01:14:57,791 --> 01:14:59,583 [CD Covington]: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 202 01:15:00,875 --> 01:15:15,041 [George Corley]: Um, uh, let's back up. So your plan for, for your book. So. What, what kinds 203 01:15:15,041 --> 01:15:20,041 [George Corley]: of topics do you, are you going to cover? And like, is there going to be mention 204 01:15:20,083 --> 01:15:26,416 [George Corley]: of conlanging specifically, or is it going to be mostly just all of this 205 01:15:26,500 --> 01:15:29,208 [George Corley]: like background sociolinguistic stuff? 206 01:15:30,791 --> 01:15:36,750 [CD Covington]: Yeah, so I will probably touch briefly on conlining. I am not a conlanging 207 01:15:36,750 --> 01:15:41,333 [CD Covington]: expert, and there's definitely much better guides out there already in existence. 208 01:15:41,333 --> 01:15:43,375 [CD Covington]: It's like they're all behind you on the shelf there, I think. 209 01:15:44,708 --> 01:15:45,958 [George Corley]: Uh, yeah. Yeah. There's, 210 01:15:46,041 --> 01:15:46,208 [CD Covington]: Yeah. 211 01:15:46,708 --> 01:15:50,083 [George Corley]: um, this one. Yeah. 212 01:15:50,791 --> 01:15:51,166 [CD Covington]: Yeah. 213 01:15:51,541 --> 01:15:54,458 [CD Covington]: I think I'll probably haven't really found that part out yet. But probably 214 01:15:54,458 --> 01:16:00,000 [CD Covington]: talk about a few that are like probably mentioned Tolkien and like Klingon 215 01:16:00,041 --> 01:16:03,625 [CD Covington]: and a couple of things that say, Hi, people have done this. You don't 216 01:16:03,666 --> 01:16:05,958 [CD Covington]: have to. If you really want to 217 01:16:05,958 --> 01:16:10,083 [CD Covington]: g read this book or read that book, go to this website and find the resources 218 01:16:10,125 --> 01:16:17,375 [CD Covington]: there is a community have fun. But yeah, what I'm going to focus on the part 219 01:16:17,416 --> 01:16:23,333 [CD Covington]: I have not quite completely finished yet. is, I haven't done the morphology 220 01:16:23,375 --> 01:16:29,333 [CD Covington]: section yet, because I'm like, is phonetics? Morphology, and like, morphology 221 01:16:29,375 --> 01:16:32,916 [CD Covington]: is really cool, but I never take it, I didn't, they didn't offer morphology 222 01:16:32,916 --> 01:16:37,291 [CD Covington]: class at Georgia when I was there. So the only class I had was in morphology, 223 01:16:37,291 --> 01:16:39,541 [CD Covington]: was phonology and morphology of German. 224 01:16:40,375 --> 01:16:40,833 [George Corley]: Oh. 225 01:16:41,375 --> 01:16:46,541 [CD Covington]: So it's very, very specific. I have a very, very limited knowledge of morphology. 226 01:16:46,750 --> 01:16:52,000 [CD Covington]: So I mean, I need to find a nice textbook to bother, or just be like, here's 227 01:16:52,041 --> 01:16:57,083 [CD Covington]: how it works in English and German. Not really useful or broadly applicable. 228 01:16:59,500 --> 01:17:04,541 [CD Covington]: But so the verdict, I've written the most of the phonetics section. And so it's 229 01:17:05,166 --> 01:17:10,000 [CD Covington]: basically half of my semester of phonetics and phonology. So the phonetics 230 01:17:10,000 --> 01:17:18,375 [CD Covington]: half, in 10,000 words. It's super crash 231 01:17:18,416 --> 01:17:20,083 [CD Covington]: course. No Praat, 232 01:17:20,083 --> 01:17:21,750 [CD Covington]: none of that. But, 233 01:17:21,875 --> 01:17:22,250 [George Corley]: and so 234 01:17:22,250 --> 01:17:22,375 [CD Covington]: yeah. 235 01:17:22,375 --> 01:17:29,666 [George Corley]: are you talking just like introducing people to phonetics, like actual phonetics 236 01:17:29,750 --> 01:17:35,750 [George Corley]: of human language? Are you also talking about like speculative phonetics 237 01:17:35,916 --> 01:17:37,166 [George Corley]: of alien languages? 238 01:17:37,791 --> 01:17:45,375 [CD Covington]: Yeah, yeah. I have a section that I'm probably going to expand all of this 239 01:17:45,583 --> 01:17:48,000 [CD Covington]: in the future as well, once I have a full draft together. 240 01:17:48,000 --> 01:17:53,500 [CD Covington]: I want to talk about how mouth like phonetics, the vocal tract is affected 241 01:17:53,500 --> 01:18:00,375 [CD Covington]: by the... phonetics is affected by the shape of the vocal tract, right? Because 242 01:18:00,791 --> 01:18:03,958 [CD Covington]: the mouth, the vocal tract is a tube and it's a differently shaped tube. 243 01:18:04,000 --> 01:18:09,041 [CD Covington]: It's a weird tube and the length of the tube determines what sounds you can 244 01:18:09,083 --> 01:18:17,958 [CD Covington]: make, blah, blah. And the human mouth, the human, what's this called? palate, is two, 245 01:18:18,166 --> 01:18:20,708 [CD Covington]: two and a half, three inches long. What if 246 01:18:20,708 --> 01:18:25,125 [CD Covington]: you have like a Wolfman and you've got like a four or five inch palate, 247 01:18:25,333 --> 01:18:27,375 [CD Covington]: how many more sounds can you make? How many more palatal, 248 01:18:27,458 --> 01:18:27,750 [George Corley]: Right. 249 01:18:27,750 --> 01:18:32,250 [CD Covington]: like stops can you do? How many more different tongue positions can you get? 250 01:18:32,875 --> 01:18:36,416 [CD Covington]: What if you've got like jowly dog things? Actually, I do talk about Scooby-Doo 251 01:18:36,458 --> 01:18:37,375 [CD Covington]: in the draft I have right now? 252 01:18:39,125 --> 01:18:39,541 [George Corley]: Hahaha 253 01:18:39,541 --> 01:18:43,833 [CD Covington]: Because original Scooby-Doo is actually probably not that far off from 254 01:18:43,875 --> 01:18:46,791 [CD Covington]: how a dog would talk if it could speak. because 255 01:18:46,791 --> 01:18:47,541 [George Corley]: Oh really? 256 01:18:47,916 --> 01:18:53,750 [CD Covington]: that's what I'm thinking. Because, I mean, we don't have, you don't know. Great 257 01:18:53,791 --> 01:18:58,208 [CD Covington]: Danes can't speak, but they're Jowly dogs. So you might notice, I'm gonna 258 01:18:58,208 --> 01:19:02,500 [CD Covington]: talk about the 70s Scooby, the more modern Scooby sounds like an actual person 259 01:19:02,541 --> 01:19:05,541 [CD Covington]: talking, which is kind of not great, but so 260 01:19:05,541 --> 01:19:10,458 [CD Covington]: early Scooby, the one I grew up with. So like, "Ruh roh, Raggy." And he doesn't 261 01:19:10,458 --> 01:19:10,500 [George Corley]: Mm-hmm. 262 01:19:10,500 --> 01:19:14,166 [CD Covington]: really round his lips very much. 263 01:19:14,166 --> 01:19:14,208 [George Corley]: Oh, 264 01:19:14,333 --> 01:19:14,500 [CD Covington]: And... 265 01:19:14,500 --> 01:19:14,708 [George Corley]: okay. 266 01:19:15,291 --> 01:19:19,083 [CD Covington]: Yeah, because the great Danes can't, they've got like a jowly, so they can't 267 01:19:19,250 --> 01:19:26,458 [CD Covington]: do this. They're just kind of jowly. And like using an R for that or a rhotic 268 01:19:27,041 --> 01:19:33,333 [CD Covington]: for that, any sort of sound that the dog can't pronounce. Why not? R is 269 01:19:33,375 --> 01:19:37,375 [CD Covington]: kind of just this default, we don't know. It's a rhotic. 270 01:19:37,375 --> 01:19:37,583 [George Corley]: Hehehehe 271 01:19:38,541 --> 01:19:42,583 [CD Covington]: Because we don't, we don't know what, we don't know what R's are. It's just 272 01:19:42,708 --> 01:19:48,458 [CD Covington]: everything that's else. It's not a stop, it's not anything else. It's just 273 01:19:48,500 --> 01:19:51,666 [CD Covington]: an R sound. So, "Ruh-roh, Raggy" kind of makes sense. 274 01:19:52,833 --> 01:20:00,375 [George Corley]: Yeah. Um, if you are, if you do one thing when talking about like an alien 275 01:20:00,791 --> 01:20:08,000 [George Corley]: language, an alien or a language for something that's not human, um, how do 276 01:20:08,208 --> 01:20:18,750 [George Corley]: you feel about the balance of like making it to like what that would actually 277 01:20:18,791 --> 01:20:25,750 [George Corley]: sound like what the actual creature would be able to do versus making 278 01:20:25,791 --> 01:20:29,375 [George Corley]: things that won't lose a reader. 279 01:20:30,125 --> 01:20:30,458 [CD Covington]: Hmm. 280 01:20:30,458 --> 01:20:36,250 [George Corley]: And I, I understand that, you know, different writers might be, might have 281 01:20:36,333 --> 01:20:43,625 [George Corley]: different thresholds on that, but like making it, you know, do you think 282 01:20:44,916 --> 01:20:49,708 [George Corley]: you should be concerned about whether it's going to be pronounced or comprehensible 283 01:20:49,791 --> 01:20:58,125 [George Corley]: to the human reader or, um, like focus more on like the accuracy of the 284 01:20:58,208 --> 01:20:59,958 [George Corley]: physiology you're constructing. 285 01:21:00,041 --> 01:21:06,041 [CD Covington]: Hmm, I think it depends on what you're trying to do with it and like your personal 286 01:21:06,958 --> 01:21:09,875 [CD Covington]: Goals, I guess with how you're writing it and also if you ever want to get 287 01:21:09,875 --> 01:21:13,833 [CD Covington]: an ebook made or not an ebook audiobook Because if you're having an audiobook 288 01:21:13,875 --> 01:21:18,833 [CD Covington]: narrator, you've also to be able to pronounce the letter It's right You 289 01:21:18,875 --> 01:21:19,291 [CD Covington]: know on 290 01:21:19,375 --> 01:21:19,541 [George Corley]: Yeah. 291 01:21:19,541 --> 01:21:24,458 [CD Covington]: in it be like, well, this is we can't do this down or just like if they 292 01:21:24,458 --> 01:21:31,958 [CD Covington]: have like there's a lot of like aliens that have extra speech organs or whatever, 293 01:21:32,791 --> 01:21:36,500 [CD Covington]: and like some sort of resonance chamber, and you're like, well, we can't do 294 01:21:36,541 --> 01:21:41,375 [CD Covington]: resonance chamber with this human speaker here, so we'll 295 01:21:41,375 --> 01:21:41,416 [George Corley]: have to do 296 01:21:41,416 --> 01:21:41,625 [CD Covington]: just, 297 01:21:41,625 --> 01:21:43,250 [George Corley]: some audio engineering on that. 298 01:21:43,375 --> 01:21:48,458 [CD Covington]: Yeah, we'll play with audio and, or just get like a kazoo or something, 299 01:21:48,583 --> 01:21:54,666 [CD Covington]: I don't know. Actually, that would be hilarious. Every time they have to 300 01:21:54,666 --> 01:21:55,791 [CD Covington]: do the thing that honk a kazoo. 301 01:21:56,208 --> 01:22:00,500 [CD Covington]: It's difficult and I haven't figured out how I want to explain that yet. 302 01:22:01,375 --> 01:22:03,708 [CD Covington]: That's in the future part of the book that I'm written yet. 303 01:22:04,500 --> 01:22:05,333 [CD Covington]: Yeah, the. 304 01:22:05,333 --> 01:22:09,958 [CD Covington]: Like you want to be able to spell it for people. 305 01:22:10,833 --> 01:22:11,125 [George Corley]: Right. 306 01:22:11,125 --> 01:22:18,000 [CD Covington]: And that's part of part of that is deciding how you want to spell it. And that's 307 01:22:18,041 --> 01:22:25,250 [CD Covington]: an author's decision. And then you get into like, yeah, do we want it to be 308 01:22:25,250 --> 01:22:29,166 [CD Covington]: pronounceable? And I admit, there's a bunch of books that I've read, and 309 01:22:29,208 --> 01:22:32,666 [CD Covington]: the character names are just sort of look like a really bad Scrabble draw. 310 01:22:33,750 --> 01:22:35,125 [George Corley]: Hahaha 311 01:22:35,625 --> 01:22:39,750 [CD Covington]: Sometimes they do, so like this is a really bad scrabble draw. And I just kind 312 01:22:39,750 --> 01:22:43,583 [CD Covington]: of look at them and go like, that's that name. And I just kind of remember 313 01:22:43,625 --> 01:22:47,666 [CD Covington]: it as that's that name for the rest of the book. And I'm like, I'm not going 314 01:22:47,666 --> 01:22:51,333 [CD Covington]: to pronounce it. It's just S in a bunch of letters or whatever. 315 01:22:51,791 --> 01:22:55,375 [CD Covington]: That's that works for me as a reader sometimes but a lot of maybe there's 316 01:22:55,416 --> 01:22:57,708 [CD Covington]: other readers who that wouldn't work for they're like no, I've been able to 317 01:22:57,750 --> 01:22:59,958 [CD Covington]: pronounce it and 318 01:23:00,166 --> 01:23:00,375 [George Corley]: Yeah. 319 01:23:01,500 --> 01:23:05,791 [CD Covington]: It is hard finding that balance and sometimes it's just kind of well, I guess 320 01:23:05,791 --> 01:23:11,041 [CD Covington]: that's not my target audience if they're just gonna skip it because they 321 01:23:11,041 --> 01:23:14,000 [CD Covington]: don't know how to pronounce a word. You're like, probably not my target 322 01:23:14,041 --> 01:23:18,416 [CD Covington]: audience. But if it is your target audience, target audience, why can't 323 01:23:18,416 --> 01:23:19,041 [CD Covington]: I pronounce that? 324 01:23:19,625 --> 01:23:24,666 [CD Covington]: They'll stick with you probably, right? Because if, maybe if you're the kind 325 01:23:24,666 --> 01:23:27,166 [CD Covington]: of person who's writing that sort of book where you actually are thinking 326 01:23:27,208 --> 01:23:32,958 [CD Covington]: about a lot of these things, or game situation, or whatever. maybe you're 327 01:23:33,000 --> 01:23:36,708 [CD Covington]: making it be more about language. And maybe your audience is gonna want to read 328 01:23:36,750 --> 01:23:39,500 [CD Covington]: that because they're interested in reading about language. 329 01:23:41,791 --> 01:23:44,291 [George Corley]: Yeah. And 330 01:23:44,291 --> 01:23:51,250 [George Corley]: It does depend on what the audience is and your thing about names like 331 01:23:53,458 --> 01:23:56,500 [George Corley]: You do have to have character names, right? And 332 01:23:56,500 --> 01:23:57,458 [CD Covington]: Yes, usually. 333 01:23:57,458 --> 01:24:03,000 [George Corley]: it's reasonable to say that your character names, if possible, are going 334 01:24:03,041 --> 01:24:10,833 [George Corley]: to be from the language. There might be cases where they are just impossible 335 01:24:10,875 --> 01:24:16,083 [George Corley]: to render in Roman script, like they're from a sign language or the sounds 336 01:24:16,083 --> 01:24:20,416 [George Corley]: are too radically different and maybe you do translated names or something, 337 01:24:20,500 --> 01:24:27,875 [George Corley]: but usually you want to have character names from the language. Um You said 338 01:24:27,916 --> 01:24:32,125 [George Corley]: that you're not really going to do a whole lot of mention of conlanging, but 339 01:24:32,250 --> 01:24:40,458 [George Corley]: like one thing that could be useful -- I don't know if you are going to 340 01:24:40,791 --> 01:24:44,625 [George Corley]: mention it is the concept of a naming language where it's 341 01:24:44,708 --> 01:24:49,791 [George Corley]: just a limited conlang with just some phonology and morphology just so 342 01:24:49,833 --> 01:24:52,875 [George Corley]: you can make names, right? 343 01:24:52,875 --> 01:24:55,916 [CD Covington]: Yeah, I think that's what I'm, I didn't know it was called that. So... 344 01:24:56,333 --> 01:24:57,000 [George Corley]: Yeah. 345 01:24:57,250 --> 01:25:00,166 [George Corley]: Well, it's nice to have some exchange of ideas. 346 01:25:00,833 --> 01:25:04,541 [CD Covington]: Yeah, yeah, I love learning things. Why I'm here. 347 01:25:05,208 --> 01:25:11,666 [George Corley]: Yeah. Um, but you know, that's, that's something to, to make names within a 348 01:25:11,708 --> 01:25:23,125 [George Corley]: culture consistent. Uh, what about issues of like prestige dialects and, 349 01:25:23,125 --> 01:25:30,875 [George Corley]: you know, you, you mentioned about having this world building set out can 350 01:25:30,958 --> 01:25:40,958 [George Corley]: help with understanding about characters. Well, here's the question is that 351 01:25:40,958 --> 01:25:51,666 [George Corley]: so you have prestige in sociolinguistics, we have stereotypes about different dialects, 352 01:25:51,833 --> 01:25:59,291 [George Corley]: like one thing I would ask is, what are your thoughts on how to convey 353 01:26:00,083 --> 01:26:06,250 [George Corley]: character perceptions of that without necessarily endorsing the 354 01:26:06,333 --> 01:26:06,500 [CD Covington]: Hmm 355 01:26:06,500 --> 01:26:09,791 [George Corley]: idea that that's like a real thing, like, or 356 01:26:10,083 --> 01:26:13,500 [George Corley]: that's, that's like a valid thing. 357 01:26:15,416 --> 01:26:21,750 [CD Covington]: Yeah, because one of my professors in grad school had a personal vendetta against 358 01:26:21,791 --> 01:26:26,458 [CD Covington]: the word prestige. Anytime somebody mentioned prestige language, like, there's 359 01:26:26,458 --> 01:26:34,916 [CD Covington]: no such thing as prestige. I was like, well, true. But because the way I 360 01:26:34,916 --> 01:26:37,708 [CD Covington]: like to think of it is a prestige language, like, prestige has nothing to do 361 01:26:37,750 --> 01:26:40,708 [CD Covington]: with the language itself. It's how society 362 01:26:40,708 --> 01:26:40,916 [George Corley]: Right. 363 01:26:40,916 --> 01:26:48,083 [CD Covington]: gives to the language. And that's. It's a real concept and it's a real world thing 364 01:26:48,250 --> 01:26:52,250 [CD Covington]: and it's not a good thing. But it's a thing that exists and we have to deal 365 01:26:52,250 --> 01:26:55,166 [CD Covington]: with it just like everything. 366 01:26:55,791 --> 01:26:56,041 [George Corley]: Ha ha 367 01:26:56,041 --> 01:26:58,083 [CD Covington]: Um, 368 01:26:58,166 --> 01:26:58,666 [CD Covington]: everything 369 01:26:58,666 --> 01:26:59,166 [George Corley]: Everything. 370 01:26:59,166 --> 01:27:04,416 [CD Covington]: it's, it's a thing where just, if we live in society, we have to take, we 371 01:27:04,458 --> 01:27:08,958 [CD Covington]: don't have to take it, but we know we have to deal with what we live with 372 01:27:09,166 --> 01:27:20,916 [CD Covington]: in this society we live in. And. Yeah, in the book I'm, the novel I'm revising, 373 01:27:20,916 --> 01:27:26,458 [CD Covington]: well I will be revising after I finish all of this, because this is going 374 01:27:26,458 --> 01:27:33,708 [CD Covington]: to be my first priority if my Kickstarter funds. [inaudible] Is the main character, 375 01:27:33,791 --> 01:27:38,541 [CD Covington]: the two main characters are working class people, they work in a Waffle 376 01:27:38,541 --> 01:27:46,750 [CD Covington]: House, but it's in space, and they have to-- They want to save their favorite 377 01:27:46,791 --> 01:27:56,000 [CD Covington]: bar from being gentrified. So they crowdfund to get the license for it. And 378 01:27:57,791 --> 01:28:03,708 [CD Covington]: the way they talk is normal, I guess. I mean, it sounds normal to me, but 379 01:28:03,708 --> 01:28:07,208 [CD Covington]: then there's another person who they interact with who's a manager and 380 01:28:07,666 --> 01:28:12,916 [CD Covington]: her, the way she speaks is just different. Like she speaks at a more academic 381 01:28:12,916 --> 01:28:17,541 [CD Covington]: level, which is... how I talk, if I'm writing. That's my writing 382 01:28:17,583 --> 01:28:19,625 [CD Covington]: voice. She speaks in my writing voice, 383 01:28:20,083 --> 01:28:20,416 [George Corley]: Mm-hmm. 384 01:28:20,416 --> 01:28:23,541 [CD Covington]: which is kind of funny. But like, that's kind of one way to do it. You 385 01:28:23,583 --> 01:28:26,375 [CD Covington]: can kind of, I don't have any comment on it. 386 01:28:26,791 --> 01:28:29,541 [CD Covington]: I don't think have any comment on it, but somebody could. But like that you 387 01:28:29,583 --> 01:28:33,500 [CD Covington]: can do that kind of thing, give characters different voices, different registers 388 01:28:33,541 --> 01:28:39,458 [CD Covington]: of formality. And maybe something somebody can comment on it like, wow, she talks 389 01:28:40,250 --> 01:28:43,875 [CD Covington]: fancy. And I don't know how to talk fancy like her. I'm glad she's dealing 390 01:28:43,875 --> 01:28:47,458 [CD Covington]: with all the fancy stuff. Cause if we went up to them and started talking like 391 01:28:47,541 --> 01:28:52,875 [CD Covington]: us, it'd be, they would ignore us because we sound uneducated because we just 392 01:28:52,916 --> 01:28:53,458 [CD Covington]: baristas 393 01:28:54,291 --> 01:28:54,500 [George Corley]: Mm-hmm. 394 01:28:54,500 --> 01:29:04,166 [CD Covington]: and waitresses. And so there are ways of doing that. And if you're like, 395 01:29:04,375 --> 01:29:08,750 [CD Covington]: if you're writing a book about language, which I also really endorse, I think 396 01:29:08,791 --> 01:29:12,916 [CD Covington]: it's a great thing to do because I want to read them. I want to read books about 397 01:29:12,958 --> 01:29:19,500 [CD Covington]: language. Is have people actually explicitly comment on it, just kind of do 398 01:29:19,541 --> 01:29:27,500 [CD Covington]: like. So if it's somebody who has to register shift or style shift in different 399 01:29:27,541 --> 01:29:36,291 [CD Covington]: locations. They can comment on, "Man, I hate putting on this voice. I hate 400 01:29:36,333 --> 01:29:40,750 [CD Covington]: putting on the businessman voice. I hate putting on the ... whatever." 401 01:29:41,625 --> 01:29:41,916 [George Corley]: Yeah. 402 01:29:41,916 --> 01:29:48,333 [CD Covington]: voice kind of thing. Cause there's, yeah, like there's ways to do it. 403 01:29:49,500 --> 01:29:49,750 [George Corley]: Yeah. 404 01:29:51,000 --> 01:29:52,000 [CD Covington]: subtly and less subtly. 405 01:29:53,083 --> 01:30:00,666 [George Corley]: Right, right, right. That's a good point is have a character explicitly 406 01:30:02,041 --> 01:30:05,666 [George Corley]: do that because there are people who have to think that way. 407 01:30:06,291 --> 01:30:06,458 [CD Covington]: Mm-hmm. 408 01:30:06,666 --> 01:30:15,500 [George Corley]: It doesn't, it's not necessarily always automatic. And It is, it is interesting 409 01:30:16,000 --> 01:30:20,708 [George Corley]: to think about like, how would the characters be perceiving it? It has to 410 01:30:20,750 --> 01:30:28,000 [George Corley]: be, you know, from their perspective, but also, you know, maybe a variety of perspectives 411 01:30:28,291 --> 01:30:37,083 [George Corley]: on what it is. Maybe some people buy into the prestige and other people like 412 01:30:38,500 --> 01:30:45,458 [George Corley]: reject it, or they are uncomfortable about it or recognize that it's arbitrary in 413 01:30:45,541 --> 01:30:47,875 [George Corley]: some way. Um, 414 01:30:47,958 --> 01:30:56,458 [George Corley]: it is, and if you do, you know, write about linguistics in the story, that 415 01:30:56,500 --> 01:31:02,791 [George Corley]: that's definitely something that I would like to see more of too. Um, uh, 416 01:31:05,250 --> 01:31:12,333 [George Corley]: what else can we, um, so This book is going to be on a Kickstarter. When 417 01:31:12,333 --> 01:31:14,166 [George Corley]: is that Kickstarter kicking off? 418 01:31:15,625 --> 01:31:16,291 [CD Covington]: August 15th. 419 01:31:17,208 --> 01:31:17,500 [George Corley]: August 420 01:31:17,500 --> 01:31:18,083 [George Corley]: 15th. 421 01:31:18,083 --> 01:31:22,958 [CD Covington]: it's gonna run, yeah, it's gonna run for about, for a month. So until September 422 01:31:23,208 --> 01:31:26,208 [CD Covington]: 14th or 15th, whichever 30 days ends up being, I'm not sure exactly how, 423 01:31:27,458 --> 01:31:27,666 [George Corley]: Yeah, 424 01:31:27,666 --> 01:31:28,250 [CD Covington]: Kickstarter counts that. 425 01:31:28,250 --> 01:31:37,500 [George Corley]: well, so I will definitely get this up before in time for people to contribute. 426 01:31:39,000 --> 01:31:43,166 [George Corley]: What is what is your like first goal for this Kickstarter? 427 01:31:44,041 --> 01:31:44,875 [CD Covington]: 1500. 428 01:31:45,541 --> 01:31:52,958 [George Corley]: 1500 yeah so that's doable guys we can uh-- I don't know if my audience 429 01:31:53,000 --> 01:32:00,041 [George Corley]: by themselves can do this but we can try because yeah these publishing 430 01:32:00,458 --> 01:32:04,083 [George Corley]: uh Kickstarters tend to be pretty low because it's just you're just doing 431 01:32:04,125 --> 01:32:07,083 [George Corley]: enough for what like a print run or what? 432 01:32:07,791 --> 01:32:13,833 [CD Covington]: This book is going to be... there's ebook rewards and print and hardback. 433 01:32:14,708 --> 01:32:14,958 [George Corley]: Yeah. 434 01:32:15,125 --> 01:32:18,416 [CD Covington]: And I've got some really cool limited edition rewards that I'm not going 435 01:32:18,416 --> 01:32:21,416 [CD Covington]: to spoil until it's live. 436 01:32:22,250 --> 01:32:25,541 [CD Covington]: But I've also got like, if you're not interested in the book tiers, I've got 437 01:32:25,583 --> 01:32:32,291 [CD Covington]: a three euro level... everything's in euros because I'm in Germany... that's going 438 01:32:32,291 --> 01:32:35,666 [CD Covington]: to be a collection of my Tor essays. It's edited. 439 01:32:35,666 --> 01:32:39,291 [CD Covington]: And the higher we back, the more we get funding we get, the 440 01:32:39,333 --> 01:32:42,708 [CD Covington]: more essays there will be. It'll be edited, have a nice little book cover, all 441 01:32:42,750 --> 01:32:48,583 [CD Covington]: that kind of thing. And it's only like, it's like what, $4 right now, I 442 01:32:48,625 --> 01:32:50,625 [CD Covington]: think. 443 01:32:50,625 --> 01:32:51,041 [George Corley]: Yeah, 444 01:32:51,041 --> 01:32:51,333 [CD Covington]: I'm not sure exactly 445 01:32:51,333 --> 01:32:51,375 [George Corley]: well, 446 01:32:51,375 --> 01:32:51,875 [CD Covington]: the exchange rate. 447 01:32:53,333 --> 01:33:01,041 [George Corley]: that's, that's great. And, uh, so, and it will be, uh, A Writer's Guide 448 01:33:01,083 --> 01:33:09,291 [George Corley]: to Linguistic Worldbuilding. Um, that's, it sounds like something that a 449 01:33:09,333 --> 01:33:14,791 [George Corley]: lot of my audience would be interested for doing the background world building 450 01:33:14,833 --> 01:33:17,916 [George Corley]: work behind the conlangs. Uh, 451 01:33:17,958 --> 01:33:18,166 [CD Covington]: Mm-hmm. 452 01:33:18,208 --> 01:33:24,250 [George Corley]: and also for a lot of, you know, writers out there who are interested 453 01:33:24,583 --> 01:33:30,375 [George Corley]: in how language interacts with the world and want to include that in their 454 01:33:30,416 --> 01:33:37,375 [George Corley]: writing, which I presume is your primary audience. Um, yeah. Uh, let's, 455 01:33:37,750 --> 01:33:42,916 [CD Covington]: Yeah, like I'm hoping to write a book that's interesting to more 456 01:33:43,541 --> 01:33:50,583 [CD Covington]: people than just writers, books, games, and that sort of thing. Because I'm 457 01:33:50,625 --> 01:33:53,458 [CD Covington]: hoping to make this kind of like, I want to learn more about linguistics, 458 01:33:53,458 --> 01:33:55,750 [CD Covington]: where can I start? And 459 01:33:55,750 --> 01:33:56,000 [George Corley]: Right. 460 01:33:56,000 --> 01:34:00,416 [CD Covington]: also, like these are some really great books. What books does Connie like that 461 01:34:00,416 --> 01:34:02,000 [CD Covington]: did it well? What books can she 462 01:34:02,000 --> 01:34:02,208 [George Corley]: Right, 463 01:34:02,208 --> 01:34:02,458 [CD Covington]: recommend? 464 01:34:02,458 --> 01:34:02,833 [George Corley]: right, right. 465 01:34:04,041 --> 01:34:04,208 [CD Covington]: Because 466 01:34:04,208 --> 01:34:04,375 [George Corley]: CJ 467 01:34:04,375 --> 01:34:05,625 [CD Covington]: I'm 468 01:34:05,666 --> 01:34:07,000 [CD Covington]: CJ Cherry, A+. 469 01:34:07,333 --> 01:34:07,791 [George Corley]: and 470 01:34:08,083 --> 01:34:15,041 [CD Covington]: Um, Arkady Martine, also A+. Um, Ursula LeGuin, but she's just amazing 471 01:34:15,083 --> 01:34:17,416 [CD Covington]: anyway. I don't think [inaudible] worldbuilding. I just think she's 472 01:34:17,458 --> 01:34:24,416 [CD Covington]: an A-plus writer. But, uh, some of my favorite books that just are like, that 473 01:34:24,458 --> 01:34:26,958 [CD Covington]: do it really well, I think, and I've written about many of them for my 474 01:34:27,458 --> 01:34:31,125 [CD Covington]: Tor column, actually. But, no, 475 01:34:31,125 --> 01:34:32,166 [CD Covington]: they're different examples 476 01:34:32,166 --> 01:34:32,750 [CD Covington]: and more detail. 477 01:34:34,375 --> 01:34:42,541 [George Corley]: a different context. Yeah. All right. What really... 478 01:34:42,541 --> 01:34:46,541 [George Corley]: What about like the integration? 479 01:34:46,541 --> 01:34:48,291 [George Corley]: Okay, I need to think. 480 01:34:48,833 --> 01:34:54,791 [George Corley]: when you're integrating this into the narrative, like... 481 01:34:54,791 --> 01:35:01,708 [George Corley]: I know that there's going to be all kinds of different ways that it goes 482 01:35:01,791 --> 01:35:11,416 [George Corley]: into the narrative. Like how much like, do you like things where the language 483 01:35:11,625 --> 01:35:16,416 [George Corley]: is a part of the world building and it affects things, but it's like, like 484 01:35:16,416 --> 01:35:22,625 [George Corley]: a secondary plot versus things like Arrival where language is the, the main 485 01:35:22,625 --> 01:35:22,875 [George Corley]: thing. 486 01:35:23,833 --> 01:35:27,166 [CD Covington]: Mm. Yeah, I like both. 487 01:35:27,166 --> 01:35:28,375 [George Corley]: Yeah. 488 01:35:28,375 --> 01:35:32,791 [CD Covington]: One of the, I'm just going to grab this book off my shelf. 489 01:35:32,791 --> 01:35:37,375 [CD Covington]: It's out of print, I got it used. Hellburner. Actually, I think it's 490 01:35:37,958 --> 01:35:43,208 [CD Covington]: back in print and ebook only. I don't have my glasses on. 491 01:35:43,750 --> 01:35:47,791 [CD Covington]: I know that in this book, one of the things she did was they had a very big, 492 01:35:48,083 --> 01:35:56,500 [CD Covington]: oh no, it was heavy time. There's a book that she wrote in the 80s. I should 493 01:35:56,500 --> 01:36:04,958 [CD Covington]: have my glasses on. But they're very slangy, 1992. And a lot of the slangy 494 01:36:05,000 --> 01:36:08,375 [CD Covington]: is just very, it sounds like somebody from the 80s, 495 01:36:09,541 --> 01:36:09,791 [George Corley]: Uh huh. 496 01:36:09,791 --> 01:36:14,750 [CD Covington]: super dated, but that's part of the world building because the people who 497 01:36:16,000 --> 01:36:23,458 [CD Covington]: speak it are living on ships and they've got their own little thing going 498 01:36:23,541 --> 01:36:29,666 [CD Covington]: on. So they have their own little language This sounds kind of 80s. But it's 499 01:36:29,708 --> 01:36:35,833 [CD Covington]: also, oh, god, on this page, I'm looking at it. The new readout says, CAF, 500 01:36:35,916 --> 01:36:41,916 [CD Covington]: MKT, and MSFUNC. Priority MS was blinking. I'm like, oh, Christ. He keyed 501 01:36:42,041 --> 01:36:52,375 [CD Covington]: MS in the hash mark. And it's just keyed. He keyed the button. And keyed 502 01:36:52,416 --> 01:36:57,000 [CD Covington]: isn't a word I would use for that, but it's the one they use in. this book. 503 01:36:58,291 --> 01:37:03,333 [CD Covington]: And this isn't really about linguistics at all. 504 01:37:03,541 --> 01:37:03,791 [George Corley]: Right. 505 01:37:06,625 --> 01:37:14,166 [CD Covington]: Yeah, it's kind of... it's Company Wars, I think. Yeah, I haven't 506 01:37:14,166 --> 01:37:17,125 [CD Covington]: read this book in a while. Yeah, 507 01:37:17,125 --> 01:37:21,291 [CD Covington]: so you can you can kind of do that. Not so easily, but like you can make 508 01:37:21,333 --> 01:37:25,791 [CD Covington]: it part of the world building without being. About it, that makes sense. 509 01:37:26,500 --> 01:37:34,458 [George Corley]: And so when you're thinking about like representing these different dialect 510 01:37:34,500 --> 01:37:42,333 [George Corley]: differences, how do you feel about it's not uncommon for authors to like 511 01:37:43,083 --> 01:37:52,041 [George Corley]: take a real world English dialect and use that to represent a a dialect of whatever 512 01:37:52,166 --> 01:37:56,166 [George Corley]: world they're doing. How do you feel like about things like that? Like 513 01:37:56,166 --> 01:38:03,375 [George Corley]: the these places where you're like using the stereotypes and associations 514 01:38:03,375 --> 01:38:07,875 [George Corley]: in the real world to reflect the other world? 515 01:38:10,208 --> 01:38:14,125 [CD Covington]: I have complicated feelings on that. 516 01:38:14,458 --> 01:38:19,916 [CD Covington]: When I read that, I'm just kind of depending on the context, I guess, I get 517 01:38:20,000 --> 01:38:24,708 [CD Covington]: irritated by it. Eye dialect is just one of those things that's just sort of 518 01:38:25,541 --> 01:38:27,583 [CD Covington]: out of fashion for good reason. 519 01:38:27,750 --> 01:38:28,041 [George Corley]: I hate 520 01:38:28,041 --> 01:38:30,166 [CD Covington]: Right now, 521 01:38:30,208 --> 01:38:30,833 [CD Covington]: it's not great. 522 01:38:31,416 --> 01:38:39,375 [CD Covington]: But so. On the topic of eye dialect, when you have people who are from 523 01:38:40,083 --> 01:38:44,750 [CD Covington]: that dialect, writing in their own dialect and spelling it, writing in their 524 01:38:44,791 --> 01:38:47,833 [CD Covington]: dialect, that's a different matter than being 525 01:38:47,833 --> 01:38:47,916 [George Corley]: Yeah. 526 01:38:47,916 --> 01:38:55,125 [CD Covington]: like, writing, 'enry, 'iggins or whatever. Because that's, that's what I'm 527 01:38:55,166 --> 01:39:01,291 [CD Covington]: talking about. Like 'enry 'iggins, "Oh, Henry Higgins, just you wait." "The rain 528 01:39:01,333 --> 01:39:01,375 [George Corley]: I- 529 01:39:01,375 --> 01:39:04,166 [CD Covington]: in Spain falls mainly on the plain. You can write it like that. 530 01:39:05,375 --> 01:39:12,458 [George Corley]: The, the, I mean, there, that's a story that was about that particular dialect, 531 01:39:12,500 --> 01:39:13,833 [George Corley]: but like the, 532 01:39:13,833 --> 01:39:14,625 [George Corley]: the thing with 533 01:39:14,833 --> 01:39:15,458 [CD Covington]: bad example. 534 01:39:15,458 --> 01:39:20,041 [George Corley]: eye dialect and, um, if, if people aren't familiar with the term, eye dialect is 535 01:39:20,125 --> 01:39:26,125 [George Corley]: where you respell words in order to reflect pronunciation in another dialect, 536 01:39:27,041 --> 01:39:32,666 [George Corley]: um, although I mean, that's, that's the, the basic point, although sometimes 537 01:39:32,750 --> 01:39:37,625 [George Corley]: I question whether the respellings are actually necessary for that because sometimes 538 01:39:37,708 --> 01:39:45,500 [George Corley]: they like I've seen your spelled as y o r e and i'm like what exactly Is the 539 01:39:45,625 --> 01:39:50,500 [George Corley]: different pronunciation that they're trying to represent? but um 540 01:39:50,500 --> 01:39:50,625 [CD Covington]: of your. 541 01:39:51,583 --> 01:39:59,500 [George Corley]: Yeah but um basically This was very common in like 19th century and early 542 01:39:59,541 --> 01:40:02,000 [George Corley]: 20th century literature. It 543 01:40:02,000 --> 01:40:02,083 [CD Covington]: all 544 01:40:02,083 --> 01:40:02,458 [George Corley]: still 545 01:40:02,458 --> 01:40:02,833 [CD Covington]: over the place 546 01:40:02,833 --> 01:40:03,208 [George Corley]: happens. 547 01:40:03,208 --> 01:40:03,708 [CD Covington]: in Dickens. 548 01:40:04,541 --> 01:40:13,708 [George Corley]: Yeah. It, it still happens in a lot of places, but, um, to me, it's like 549 01:40:13,750 --> 01:40:19,333 [George Corley]: an unnecessary barrier to your reader because like I see it and I don't know 550 01:40:19,333 --> 01:40:27,375 [George Corley]: how to pronounce this stuff. And also like. It often gets into stereotypes 551 01:40:27,416 --> 01:40:31,791 [George Corley]: and stuff. It, it's really interesting to see historical examples because 552 01:40:31,916 --> 01:40:39,875 [George Corley]: I have seen like where you have like what, and it's spelled W apostrophe 553 01:40:40,000 --> 01:40:43,041 [George Corley]: AT. So that was telling somebody that it was, 554 01:40:43,250 --> 01:40:43,375 [CD Covington]: It's 555 01:40:43,416 --> 01:40:44,000 [CD Covington]: not [ʍʌt]. 556 01:40:44,958 --> 01:40:51,875 [George Corley]: Yeah, it's telling somebody that the default expected by the author was 557 01:40:51,916 --> 01:40:59,041 [George Corley]: the [ʍʌt]. Whereas like nowadays people might do the opposite and do like hw 558 01:40:59,125 --> 01:40:59,750 [George Corley]: for someone who 559 01:40:59,833 --> 01:41:00,083 [CD Covington]: Mm-hmm. 560 01:41:00,083 --> 01:41:02,125 [George Corley]: actually says [ʍʌt]? instead 561 01:41:02,125 --> 01:41:02,166 [CD Covington]: Yeah. 562 01:41:02,166 --> 01:41:07,916 [George Corley]: of [wʌt] but uh you know, it's interesting in a historical perspective if 563 01:41:07,958 --> 01:41:15,041 [George Corley]: you like research it but like maybe try not to do that, especially if your 564 01:41:16,250 --> 01:41:18,125 [George Corley]: Dialects you're doing are not actually English 565 01:41:19,375 --> 01:41:25,666 [CD Covington]: Yeah, or your own, because there's been, there were two, two or three stories 566 01:41:25,750 --> 01:41:29,625 [CD Covington]: in the Nebula nominees this year. The Nebula Award Science Fiction Writers 567 01:41:29,625 --> 01:41:36,875 [CD Covington]: of America. Those are the Nebula Awards every year, in case no one knows. And 568 01:41:38,041 --> 01:41:42,208 [CD Covington]: at least two of them were written by Black writers 569 01:41:43,458 --> 01:41:43,750 [George Corley]: Right. 570 01:41:43,916 --> 01:41:49,000 [CD Covington]: that were written in their particular variety of English 571 01:41:49,000 --> 01:41:52,041 [CD Covington]: And it was great because 572 01:41:52,291 --> 01:41:52,500 [George Corley]: Yeah. 573 01:41:53,541 --> 01:41:59,083 [CD Covington]: they were represent... It's... when it's written by a Black writer, it's underrepresented. 574 01:41:59,208 --> 01:42:03,125 [CD Covington]: When it's written by a white writer who's kind of being a stereotyping, 575 01:42:03,916 --> 01:42:04,375 [CD Covington]: not 576 01:42:04,375 --> 01:42:04,750 [George Corley]: Yeah. 577 01:42:04,750 --> 01:42:06,916 [CD Covington]: super great. So there 578 01:42:07,125 --> 01:42:07,500 [George Corley]: I am. 579 01:42:07,500 --> 01:42:14,541 [CD Covington]: is fine grain distinct... like, what's the word? It's not black and white. 580 01:42:14,958 --> 01:42:16,583 [CD Covington]: I don't want to say it's not black and white, but it's... 581 01:42:17,791 --> 01:42:23,916 [George Corley]: Yeah. I mean, uh, and if you're going to represent, if you're going to be like 582 01:42:23,958 --> 01:42:32,333 [George Corley]: in the real world and represent, um, a real world dialect or, um, I mean, there's, 583 01:42:32,500 --> 01:42:36,833 [George Corley]: there's cases where things that look like eye dialect aren't actually like, 584 01:42:37,833 --> 01:42:42,166 [George Corley]: uh, Also, cause like there, there are these conventional spellings that 585 01:42:42,166 --> 01:42:49,166 [George Corley]: are used for African-American English. There's also like people, people do 586 01:42:49,208 --> 01:42:51,458 [George Corley]: write in Scots with Scots 587 01:42:51,458 --> 01:42:56,750 [George Corley]: spellings and things like that. I think in those cases, it's like consult with 588 01:42:56,791 --> 01:42:58,166 [George Corley]: someone who actually speaks it. 589 01:42:58,875 --> 01:43:03,875 [CD Covington]: Yes. If you do not yourself speak that language, please 590 01:43:03,875 --> 01:43:03,958 [George Corley]: but 591 01:43:03,958 --> 01:43:04,916 [CD Covington]: contact someone who does. 592 01:43:05,791 --> 01:43:10,500 [George Corley]: it might not be something to like grab for your fantasy culture. But yeah. 593 01:43:10,666 --> 01:43:11,041 [CD Covington]: Yeah, no. 594 01:43:11,458 --> 01:43:20,166 [George Corley]: Wrapping up here. So the Kickstarter is coming up everybody, August 15th, check 595 01:43:20,166 --> 01:43:26,583 [George Corley]: that out, get this book out because it will be useful to writers. It'll 596 01:43:26,625 --> 01:43:34,083 [George Corley]: be useful to a lot of people. And I think that a lot of people listening 597 01:43:34,083 --> 01:43:40,666 [George Corley]: may want to hear a perspective on, you know, how to incorporate some like social 598 01:43:40,708 --> 01:43:46,750 [George Corley]: linguistics and, and world, world building of like the stuff around your 599 01:43:46,791 --> 01:43:58,291 [George Corley]: language into things. Uh, so go check that out and, uh, Connie, do you have 600 01:43:58,500 --> 01:44:03,541 [George Corley]: any final thoughts, final advice before we tap out? 601 01:44:04,833 --> 01:44:07,000 [CD Covington]: kind of in general or about the topic. 602 01:44:07,541 --> 01:44:12,458 [George Corley]: Well, I mean, yeah, just like any advice about linguistic worldbuilding that 603 01:44:12,500 --> 01:44:15,708 [George Corley]: you would like people to stick with people here. 604 01:44:16,291 --> 01:44:18,916 [CD Covington]: There was one, I did a little Q&A and there was one I thought of and I can't 605 01:44:18,958 --> 01:44:20,541 [CD Covington]: remember what it is right now. 606 01:44:20,541 --> 01:44:24,458 [CD Covington]: If you're coming up with names for a culture, coming up with for people, places, 607 01:44:24,500 --> 01:44:30,500 [CD Covington]: and things, and you're looking at the letters and it looks like a bad Scrabble 608 01:44:30,500 --> 01:44:35,708 [CD Covington]: hand, start over. But 609 01:44:37,750 --> 01:44:41,333 [CD Covington]: Think about sounds that make sense together. Not that make sense together, 610 01:44:41,375 --> 01:44:48,041 [CD Covington]: but if you have like Ghirardelli, there's a little bag of Ghirardelli chips right 611 01:44:48,041 --> 01:44:52,000 [CD Covington]: here, and like cherry. They probably don't come from the same language, 612 01:44:52,041 --> 01:44:59,500 [CD Covington]: right? They don't sound very similar to each other. But like, also, that's 613 01:44:59,541 --> 01:45:03,125 [CD Covington]: a really bad example because cherry comes from cerise, which is French, 614 01:45:03,250 --> 01:45:08,041 [CD Covington]: so it's more closely related to Italian than English. But it was just two 615 01:45:08,041 --> 01:45:14,458 [CD Covington]: things I had closest to hand. Or like, bottle. Bottle and Ghirardelli. Don't 616 01:45:14,500 --> 01:45:15,208 [CD Covington]: sound very familiar. 617 01:45:15,208 --> 01:45:15,708 [George Corley]: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 618 01:45:15,833 --> 01:45:21,916 [CD Covington]: Or flask. come with better examples. I'm really bad at improvising. This is why 619 01:45:21,958 --> 01:45:24,000 [CD Covington]: I'm a writer, I'm not an improvisational speaker. 620 01:45:24,583 --> 01:45:24,791 [George Corley]: Yeah. 621 01:45:26,958 --> 01:45:35,791 [CD Covington]: But like. Readers may or may not notice if you do that. But if a reader 622 01:45:35,875 --> 01:45:39,458 [CD Covington]: does notice that it's being consistent and the names sound like they could 623 01:45:39,500 --> 01:45:43,708 [CD Covington]: plausibly come from the same place, or follow at least the same rules of 624 01:45:43,750 --> 01:45:51,416 [CD Covington]: phonetics, like same syllable structure, same allowable consonant clusters, 625 01:45:51,458 --> 01:45:57,375 [CD Covington]: if they're allowed at all, all that sort of thing, people might, if they don't 626 01:45:57,416 --> 01:46:02,666 [CD Covington]: notice, fine. If they do notice, they will love you for it, right? Be like, 627 01:46:03,000 --> 01:46:05,875 [CD Covington]: "Oh my gosh, they made the words that make sense. It sounds like they're from 628 01:46:05,875 --> 01:46:12,041 [CD Covington]: the same language." And like, if you borrow words, change them a little bit. 629 01:46:12,333 --> 01:46:16,625 [CD Covington]: So like we don't say tsunami [tsɯnami] in English, we say [sunami]. 630 01:46:17,916 --> 01:46:19,500 [CD Covington]: We don't say angst [ɑŋst], we say [æŋst]. 631 01:46:20,625 --> 01:46:20,833 [George Corley]: Right. 632 01:46:20,958 --> 01:46:23,791 [CD Covington]: We don't say zeitgeist [tsaɪtgaɪst], we say [zaɪtgaɪst], but. 633 01:46:23,791 --> 01:46:28,250 [CD Covington]: everything matches the phonology and phonetics of the recipient language. 634 01:46:29,833 --> 01:46:33,875 [George Corley]: Well, that's that's, uh, useful advice and you've 635 01:46:33,875 --> 01:46:34,125 [CD Covington]: I hope 636 01:46:34,125 --> 01:46:34,208 [George Corley]: used, 637 01:46:34,208 --> 01:46:34,291 [CD Covington]: so. 638 01:46:34,500 --> 01:46:36,791 [George Corley]: you've said a lot of useful advice today and, 639 01:46:36,791 --> 01:46:37,000 [CD Covington]: Oh good. 640 01:46:37,000 --> 01:46:45,375 [George Corley]: uh, I am excited for that book. I hope I can get a review copy, but, uh, well, 641 01:46:45,416 --> 01:46:53,041 [George Corley]: let's, uh, everybody go. I will link to that in the show notes or the 642 01:46:53,083 --> 01:46:59,916 [George Corley]: description on YouTube. to the Kickstarter for when it goes live. And 643 01:47:00,083 --> 01:47:09,041 [George Corley]: we're going to, uh, and, um, check out. The column over on Tor as well. 644 01:47:09,291 --> 01:47:16,625 [George Corley]: It's got a lot of useful, uh, information, you know, well, reviews of books 645 01:47:16,666 --> 01:47:23,833 [George Corley]: that people listening to this podcast or watching this podcast probably will 646 01:47:23,875 --> 01:47:26,958 [George Corley]: be interested in. 647 01:47:28,041 --> 01:47:35,375 [George Corley]: And you also have your YouTube channel. So we can send people to that too. 648 01:47:35,625 --> 01:47:39,708 [George Corley]: So thank you, Conni, for being on 649 01:47:39,708 --> 01:47:41,041 [CD Covington]: Yeah. 650 01:47:41,041 --> 01:47:41,291 [George Corley]: the show. And 651 01:47:41,291 --> 01:47:41,708 [CD Covington]: Thanks for having me. 652 01:47:43,000 --> 01:47:49,375 [George Corley]: yeah, and thank everyone else for listening or watching. and our patrons 653 01:47:49,416 --> 01:47:54,833 [George Corley]: for funding this show and I'm going to say happy conlanging. 654 01:47:56,875 --> 01:48:00,208 Special Thanks goes to our patrons 655 01:48:41,125 --> 01:48:46,000 Conlangery's theme music is by Null Device. 656 01:48:47,458 --> 01:48:54,958 Conlangery is distributed under a Creative Commons Attribution-Noncommercial-Share Alike 4.0 657 01:48:54,958 --> 01:48:57,958 International License