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Hi. I'm Ron Coleman and a partner in

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the Dylan law group social media legend, and

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free speech ent.

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When I started the culmination podcast in the

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string of 20 21,

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Its focus was on free expression and censorship

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on the Internet.

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Pod as important as that subject is to

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me, which is very important. I felt hemmed

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in in the podcast.

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I wanted to spend more time talking to

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the interesting people I've met in my legal

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and free speech work.

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Without feeling any need to have them all

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make the same point.

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So I culminated the first series of the

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podcast and have started the second series.

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I hope you'll enjoy these conversations

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as much as I have recording it. I

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love comb.

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Are you enjoying the lovely summer weather? I

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know that I am.

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Today, we're gonna talk to

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someone that you may

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or may not know.

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But he is 1 of the turns out

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from what I'm read. He's a a shadowy

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figure. He's low.

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And he is

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well, listen.

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Why be shy about it. He's a Us

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university lecturer behind a

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bar right, Twitter account and publishing house. U.

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And

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Jonathan

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has recently

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you know,

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been getting a very interesting

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attention,

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and

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said, when when I went to... Well, what's

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all what's all this about.

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I said, well, okay. Whoever he is, he

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follows me. So

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That means

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he's obviously a man of great discernment. That's

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right.

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And also from what I gather,

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appears to be a friend of another friend

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of mine.

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Who... You'll notice you've never seen the same

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place.

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That's right.

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And and we had

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extra dead

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Jc

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on a culmination podcast a while ago.

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Jonathan. You're act... You're... You are

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an academic, professor or former professor or a

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lecturer. I don't know what they've done to

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you so far. Yeah. How'd you get yourself

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into all this? Oh, boy. Where do we

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start?

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Okay. So... Are at the beginning.

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First,

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let me say thanks for having me on.

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I really appreciate this opportunity to speak to

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you in your audience.

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Became familiar with you. I think probably through

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your legal work.

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You were probably...

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At least, if not directly defending some people

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that, you know, I I've been following and

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and supporting you were at least vocal

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in your defensive of them. So...

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Was likely losing some very big and very

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courageous case for somebody. Yeah. But these these

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are important cases to fight. And actually, I

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think the

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general topic of free speech should be sort

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of on our agenda here, and that's maybe

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where,

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most of all and among other things, we

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we see Ida to eye and the importance

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of free speech. So, okay. Where do we

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start?

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I grew up in in California in Northern

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California.

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And I think that's relevant because

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what I think a lot of the country

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is experiencing

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now

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was

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apparent in California,

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you know, 10 years ago or more California

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has a reputation of being

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sort of 10 years ahead of the curve

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of everywhere else,

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both were the good and the bad. And

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I think unfortunately, most recently, this has mostly

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been

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for the bad in terms of,

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you know, some of the social policies and

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politics of the state and what it's done

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to middle class families,

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And how Californian in particular has approached

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the question of higher ed,

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that's my domain.

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So

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Okay. I I won't get 2 in a

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depth, but I but I had a career

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in in tech after

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undergrad. I worked for Google for a little

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while.

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Was always enamored with the idea of of

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being an academia, and I sort of had

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this romantic notion in particular of

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writing, being a writer or teaching in an

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English department,

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you know, being a literature professor, of some

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kind seemed like AAA nice thing to do.

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I went back to grad school completed my

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graduate studies and got hired to teach at

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Uc Irvine in the English department. This was

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in

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2012

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to give some context. So, you know, we're

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sort of in the middle,

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or the beginning, excuse me of, Obama's second

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term,

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there's this...

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My memory of it, you know, I I

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didn't really experience this too much at the

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time.

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But now looking back, we were kind of

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in this lim space where Soc, politically, the

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country is kind of figuring out where to

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go next after

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you know, the bush years and the the

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first obama administration, which was this attempt at

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this kind of unity, you know,

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Obama going to Iowa and the primaries I

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remember and speaking to Iraq war veterans, and

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he was gonna be sort of the politician

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for everyone. Things sort of changed in 2012,

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fairly radically in my view.

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Some people

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account for this, you know, with occupy Wall

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Street, for example,

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I have my own sort of pet theories

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about what was happening at the time.

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And why

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from 2012,

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then

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into the middle of the 2000 tens, things

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seem to tip sort of radically to the

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left. In terms of the prevailing ethos of

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our institutions,

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higher ed in particular.

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So in the English department I was teaching

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in, well, I had... Yeah. Go ahead. Jump

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up.

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Snapshot.

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You in 2012.

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Yeah.

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Particularly political, not that political.

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I mean, kind of I was reading, like

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Steve Sailor,

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all the way back then, and I was

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reading bloggers like...

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Curtis Y and Nick lands,

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who might be described as the outer rights.

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And I think if I had to trace

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my sort of ideological trajectory. I would go

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back to

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sort of pat Buchanan,

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Like my my father's, like, liberal, you know,

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Jewish father,

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He was, you know, a Bill Clinton Knight,

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and we would sit around. We would watch

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the Mc miguel group. Do you remember this

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television

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Tv. And sure.

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Almost like, just because you're an adolescent, you

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wanna, like, argue with your father. I would

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I would take the side a path you

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can. But truthfully, you know, he probably spoke

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most closely to my sort of intuitions

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about sort of politics. And he was a

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hell of a good debate. He was. He

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was very sharp and About world war 2.

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I will go to the grave, believing he's...

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He he did a lot of harm with

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that book.

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But

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there were important points in that book, and

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they go the package done a little bit

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differently.

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Yeah. But he was he was he was

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a hero of mine. Yeah.

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I love you Buchanan and of course, this

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then led me down, you know, and the

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kind of a Quasi historical rabbit hole, and

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I became sort of enamored with Richard Nixon

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and and the Nixon administration. And Nixon was

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a favorite of mine for, you know, again,

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a variety of complicated reasons. But nonetheless, that

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sort of trajectory continued on, and then And

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I started reading, you know, people like Paul

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Godfrey and Larry Os, and I don't know

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how familiar are with these guys, but Not

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I won't I I'm nodding because I... That's

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my way of,

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acknowledging what you're saying.

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I don't mind if you think I've heard

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the names because I have, but since you

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asked, I'm not very familiar with them. Okay.

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I don't have to apologize that anyone it

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about for my air, but it is limited

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as

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No. It... It's fine. I mean, and these

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were relatively obscure figures. I mean, they had

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been kind of systematically kicked out of the

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mainstream conservative movement.

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Partly because of their stance on sort of

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foreign wars and their disagreements with the Neo

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cons, of course, and the term paleo con

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is a

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sort of reflex term in opposition to the

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Neo con. So there was a lot of

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sort of an there. And and the other

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big issue in the 1 sort of animating

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my own politics, I think was largely

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immigration. And again, this is why being from

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California is so relevant. So South California... Southern

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California. I'm from Northern California, but I went

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to school in Southern California and lived there

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for... Right. Basically half my life. So kind

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of a a child of both worlds, and

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they are very different sort of politically, socially,

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but they do share...

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Some of the same path in my view

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that came out of sort of mass immigration

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that really was accelerated by the George Bush

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and frankly I was see. You must have

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been grown up in an intellectually oriented household.

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So You know I mean, this is sort

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of upper middle class, suburban San Francisco, my

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parents. Yes. They, you know, they listen to

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Npr. They read New York times, we said.

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But... So the raw materials there, be because

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you're coming from a very similar background to

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mine.

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But

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like and like me,

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you're coming to a

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a different political conclusion for from that of

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your

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environment. Yeah.

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And when I meet people like us, you're

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a little bit younger than I am But

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when I when I when I I meet

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people from our kind of background who become

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conservatives, I I'm

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I'm curious

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why

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we didn't follow

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the path that everybody else did. That even

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mean Jews is still overwhelmingly

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liberal in this country.

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I mean, I have I have a variety

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of chance to that. I mean, I'm

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what what, you know, some term I'm michelin.

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Okay? I'm I'm a half you, my mother's

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Catholic.

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So, you know, I guess in some technical

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sense, I'm not quite considered jewish either. But

278
00:09:57,522 --> 00:09:59,195
my view about that is that that actually,

279
00:09:59,673 --> 00:10:01,266
as far as my parents are concerned,

280
00:10:01,998 --> 00:10:04,224
many of their intuitions that were passed down

281
00:10:04,224 --> 00:10:05,496
to me and certainly the way they raised

282
00:10:05,496 --> 00:10:07,325
my family, were very conservative.

283
00:10:07,802 --> 00:10:09,551
That's right. That's right. And then and they

284
00:10:09,551 --> 00:10:11,164
didn't necessarily appreciate

285
00:10:11,713 --> 00:10:14,733
how the world was moving away from things

286
00:10:14,733 --> 00:10:16,959
that they took for granted in terms of

287
00:10:16,959 --> 00:10:17,277
values.

288
00:10:17,912 --> 00:10:19,661
And so any wax has written about this,

289
00:10:19,740 --> 00:10:20,376
for example...

290
00:10:20,789 --> 00:10:22,221
You know, she has this concept of sort

291
00:10:22,221 --> 00:10:24,289
of middle class bourgeois values.

292
00:10:24,926 --> 00:10:27,631
And that there are members of sort of

293
00:10:27,631 --> 00:10:30,032
the... You the upper middle class, or of

294
00:10:30,032 --> 00:10:32,976
liberal left, particularly from the baby Boom era,

295
00:10:33,612 --> 00:10:34,430
where they

296
00:10:35,378 --> 00:10:37,372
they sort of speak in the sort of

297
00:10:37,372 --> 00:10:40,583
wrote sort of progressive slash liberal slogan.

298
00:10:41,199 --> 00:10:43,352
But when you look at the actual choices

299
00:10:43,352 --> 00:10:43,831
they make.

300
00:10:44,643 --> 00:10:46,078
You know, where they live, where they send

301
00:10:46,078 --> 00:10:47,911
their kids to school, how they raise their

302
00:10:47,911 --> 00:10:49,904
kids, the sorts of values that they inc

303
00:10:49,904 --> 00:10:50,701
in their children,

304
00:10:51,339 --> 00:10:54,377
they're very conservative. And they'd be hard pressed

305
00:10:54,377 --> 00:10:56,545
to find, like, a real sort of progressive

306
00:10:56,840 --> 00:10:57,714
sort of liberal,

307
00:10:58,429 --> 00:11:00,733
foundational, ideology underneath it. However,

308
00:11:01,384 --> 00:11:02,813
The era they grew up in in the

309
00:11:02,813 --> 00:11:05,274
sixties baby boomer era, it's just a very

310
00:11:05,274 --> 00:11:08,314
different set of, cultural circumstances, political circumstances,

311
00:11:09,259 --> 00:11:11,408
and their politics sort of cal at some

312
00:11:11,408 --> 00:11:12,761
point. This probably will happen to us too.

313
00:11:12,920 --> 00:11:14,352
It'll probably happen to me too and I'll

314
00:11:14,352 --> 00:11:15,865
just... This is something I'll have to deal

315
00:11:15,865 --> 00:11:17,457
with when I'm arguing with my kids at

316
00:11:17,457 --> 00:11:19,304
some point. Okay. Fine. But

317
00:11:20,024 --> 00:11:22,264
they're they're unable to move past the kind

318
00:11:22,264 --> 00:11:25,705
of label and slogan that they adopted from

319
00:11:25,705 --> 00:11:28,512
this. And and let's face it. Through that

320
00:11:28,512 --> 00:11:29,780
period, let's call it, like sort of end

321
00:11:29,780 --> 00:11:31,445
of end of the cold war, what, you

322
00:11:31,445 --> 00:11:33,427
know, Fu yam because the end of history

323
00:11:33,427 --> 00:11:34,616
period of the nineties,

324
00:11:35,584 --> 00:11:37,443
this sort of western liberal

325
00:11:38,141 --> 00:11:38,641
idea

326
00:11:40,139 --> 00:11:42,137
prevailed, and this this is where status came

327
00:11:42,137 --> 00:11:43,336
from. And if you were in any kind

328
00:11:43,336 --> 00:11:44,215
of major institution

329
00:11:44,788 --> 00:11:47,282
particularly like, in a place like California,

330
00:11:47,978 --> 00:11:50,450
you just adopted these views because all of

331
00:11:50,450 --> 00:11:52,524
the other high status people around you held

332
00:11:52,524 --> 00:11:54,926
those views and In fact, I... I've heard

333
00:11:54,926 --> 00:11:56,117
that just when I was in college and

334
00:11:56,275 --> 00:11:58,815
I took a politics course from a guy

335
00:11:58,815 --> 00:11:59,530
named Ken O.

336
00:12:00,720 --> 00:12:02,759
He he shared with us an article. In

337
00:12:03,279 --> 00:12:05,696
describing what you're describing as

338
00:12:06,794 --> 00:12:08,951
in essentially neil conservatism. Yeah.

339
00:12:09,750 --> 00:12:10,044
Not

340
00:12:10,565 --> 00:12:12,404
conservatism is not merely the property of a

341
00:12:12,404 --> 00:12:13,065
bunch of

342
00:12:13,684 --> 00:12:15,365
old Dash men on the upper West side.

343
00:12:15,684 --> 00:12:17,764
Yeah. Where young Men the upper West side

344
00:12:17,764 --> 00:12:19,820
used to be liberals, but a sort of

345
00:12:20,335 --> 00:12:20,810
consensus,

346
00:12:22,078 --> 00:12:23,054
stability oriented,

347
00:12:23,980 --> 00:12:24,480
cold

348
00:12:24,852 --> 00:12:26,066
war liberal.

349
00:12:26,596 --> 00:12:26,834
Yep.

350
00:12:27,404 --> 00:12:28,202
And I think that's right.

351
00:12:29,079 --> 00:12:30,515
And they were trying to preserve...

352
00:12:31,392 --> 00:12:33,147
And and and if if I'm being maximally

353
00:12:33,147 --> 00:12:33,625
charitable,

354
00:12:34,024 --> 00:12:35,061
I would say that they... They were trying

355
00:12:35,061 --> 00:12:37,076
to preserve the best parts of liberal.

356
00:12:38,260 --> 00:12:39,925
But I think there are a variety of

357
00:12:39,925 --> 00:12:42,621
things that happen in the sort of intervening

358
00:12:42,621 --> 00:12:45,753
years from when neo conservative is. Conservatism,

359
00:12:47,558 --> 00:12:50,126
sort of hit its high watermark to now

360
00:12:50,182 --> 00:12:50,682
where

361
00:12:51,295 --> 00:12:54,158
that particular political project is is sort of

362
00:12:54,158 --> 00:12:56,805
obsolete, I mean, look, take someone like David

363
00:12:56,805 --> 00:12:59,040
from, who I despise for a variety of

364
00:12:59,040 --> 00:13:01,355
reasons. Okay? And I have massive disagreements with

365
00:13:01,355 --> 00:13:03,351
him. But he used to be like, an

366
00:13:03,351 --> 00:13:05,443
immigration hawk. And and sort of still is

367
00:13:05,443 --> 00:13:07,120
if you actually, like, read between the lines,

368
00:13:07,280 --> 00:13:10,257
but he won't say so out loud because

369
00:13:10,875 --> 00:13:13,202
those... Those sort of values, the things that

370
00:13:13,202 --> 00:13:15,353
we're animating him probably early in his career

371
00:13:15,353 --> 00:13:17,048
have now been super seated by,

372
00:13:17,425 --> 00:13:20,230
you know, his sort of... History onyx about

373
00:13:20,230 --> 00:13:21,266
democracy or whatever.

374
00:13:22,303 --> 00:13:23,282
Okay. So

375
00:13:23,819 --> 00:13:26,530
public scene of the eighties. Yeah. The early

376
00:13:26,530 --> 00:13:26,769
nineties.

377
00:13:27,487 --> 00:13:29,895
That defines it. Another guy like Mickey Cows.

378
00:13:30,294 --> 00:13:33,346
Okay? Who is, like, no sort of conservative

379
00:13:33,404 --> 00:13:36,355
in any meaningful sense, but Actually probably agree

380
00:13:36,355 --> 00:13:37,972
with Mickey Cows on

381
00:13:38,284 --> 00:13:40,507
Well, immigration remains the only thing he really

382
00:13:40,507 --> 00:13:42,572
cares about. That's true. And and but but

383
00:13:42,572 --> 00:13:44,558
he's right to... I mean, not to say

384
00:13:44,558 --> 00:13:45,988
that's the only thing that matters.

385
00:13:46,559 --> 00:13:48,630
But his focus on immigration. Again, this is

386
00:13:48,630 --> 00:13:51,280
a California centric thing. So it's it's no

387
00:13:51,895 --> 00:13:54,227
coincidence that like Mickey Cows is a Californian.

388
00:13:55,654 --> 00:13:58,046
Interested. Actually, I would say that if if

389
00:13:58,046 --> 00:14:00,280
my father's no longer alive, but his politics

390
00:14:00,280 --> 00:14:01,498
sort of probably closely

391
00:14:01,875 --> 00:14:03,869
adhere to, like, somewhere in the Mickey Cow

392
00:14:03,869 --> 00:14:04,746
sort of, like,

393
00:14:05,558 --> 00:14:07,465
range of beliefs and attitudes.

394
00:14:08,340 --> 00:14:09,134
Okay. Now,

395
00:14:10,088 --> 00:14:11,518
a lot of these guys, I was mentioning

396
00:14:11,518 --> 00:14:14,632
previously, Larry Os, the Paleo cons, us, Steve

397
00:14:14,791 --> 00:14:15,268
Sailor,

398
00:14:16,776 --> 00:14:18,523
what drew me to their writing. And, you

399
00:14:18,523 --> 00:14:20,509
know, here's another example of someone who came

400
00:14:20,509 --> 00:14:22,573
from this broad mil that I'm talking about

401
00:14:22,573 --> 00:14:23,288
is Steven Miller.

402
00:14:24,419 --> 00:14:26,919
You know, Southern California kid, similar background,

403
00:14:27,700 --> 00:14:28,200
and

404
00:14:28,980 --> 00:14:32,025
animated by this question of of immigration because

405
00:14:32,025 --> 00:14:33,373
this is the thing that when you grow

406
00:14:33,373 --> 00:14:35,832
up in California, you're staring at sort of

407
00:14:35,832 --> 00:14:37,418
head on. You cannot avoid it.

408
00:14:38,450 --> 00:14:38,688
Now,

409
00:14:39,259 --> 00:14:40,934
a lot of these sort of upper middle

410
00:14:40,934 --> 00:14:42,790
class liberals, in particular

411
00:14:43,247 --> 00:14:44,225
have kind of

412
00:14:45,001 --> 00:14:47,734
insulated themselves from the path methodologies of mass

413
00:14:47,793 --> 00:14:49,900
immigration to their state, and their only

414
00:14:50,750 --> 00:14:53,528
confrontation with that reality is like, the cheap,

415
00:14:53,925 --> 00:14:56,465
gardener and cleaner who comes to their house.

416
00:14:56,719 --> 00:14:58,466
You know, they essentially have these almost like

417
00:14:58,466 --> 00:14:59,602
ind servants

418
00:15:00,055 --> 00:15:02,597
that, you know, serve them. They would never

419
00:15:02,597 --> 00:15:04,345
put it this way. Okay? They they would

420
00:15:04,345 --> 00:15:04,901
never, like,

421
00:15:05,793 --> 00:15:08,506
describe the relationship they have with this class

422
00:15:08,506 --> 00:15:11,059
of people who've been brought in to serve

423
00:15:11,059 --> 00:15:12,916
this sort of lower class role

424
00:15:13,629 --> 00:15:15,727
as this kind of tiered

425
00:15:16,106 --> 00:15:18,263
ind ser to sort of relationship, but that's

426
00:15:18,263 --> 00:15:20,421
in effect what it is. Sure. And yeah.

427
00:15:20,580 --> 00:15:22,187
And I actually This is why I I

428
00:15:22,187 --> 00:15:24,330
have like, disagreements a lot with someone like

429
00:15:24,489 --> 00:15:26,870
Richard Han, but he's at least honest enough

430
00:15:26,870 --> 00:15:28,457
to sort of couch it in this way.

431
00:15:29,188 --> 00:15:30,943
And so I appreciate that sort of honesty.

432
00:15:31,103 --> 00:15:33,017
And in fact, anybody who's honest from any

433
00:15:33,017 --> 00:15:35,490
side, you know, deserve some respect and a

434
00:15:35,490 --> 00:15:35,888
hearing.

435
00:15:36,447 --> 00:15:38,122
Okay. We're getting a little for our field

436
00:15:38,201 --> 00:15:39,975
So anyway, is the meal you I grew

437
00:15:39,975 --> 00:15:42,054
up in, this was my sort of political

438
00:15:42,054 --> 00:15:45,095
trajectory. Now when it came to my teaching

439
00:15:45,095 --> 00:15:46,774
when I was in the classroom and my

440
00:15:46,774 --> 00:15:47,095
studies.

441
00:15:47,815 --> 00:15:50,230
This it was completely political. And in fact,

442
00:15:50,389 --> 00:15:52,470
I went out of my way to divorce

443
00:15:52,470 --> 00:15:53,850
my sort of private politics

444
00:15:54,149 --> 00:15:56,330
from what I was doing in the university

445
00:15:56,389 --> 00:15:56,889
classroom.

446
00:15:57,764 --> 00:15:58,744
Now what happens

447
00:15:59,682 --> 00:16:02,259
in this period from, like, 2012

448
00:16:02,398 --> 00:16:04,235
to, let's say, like, 2015.

449
00:16:04,395 --> 00:16:06,809
So this... Pre dates Trump really where this

450
00:16:06,809 --> 00:16:08,250
change started to happen.

451
00:16:09,210 --> 00:16:11,529
The left for a long time,

452
00:16:12,264 --> 00:16:14,424
this goes back to the political correctness wars

453
00:16:14,424 --> 00:16:16,184
the of the nineties and and perhaps even

454
00:16:16,184 --> 00:16:19,625
earlier. Had this mantra that, the personal is

455
00:16:19,625 --> 00:16:19,945
political?

456
00:16:20,759 --> 00:16:24,132
And what they mean by that is that

457
00:16:24,191 --> 00:16:25,627
every decision we make,

458
00:16:26,106 --> 00:16:28,341
every behavior we take part in.

459
00:16:28,994 --> 00:16:29,973
Our preferences

460
00:16:30,351 --> 00:16:32,587
as it relates to not just, you know,

461
00:16:33,545 --> 00:16:36,419
social preferences and, like, how we vote and

462
00:16:36,419 --> 00:16:38,175
where we live and send kids to schools,

463
00:16:38,335 --> 00:16:40,663
but what kind of books we read, what

464
00:16:40,663 --> 00:16:42,976
kind of art and culture we participate in,

465
00:16:43,615 --> 00:16:46,007
all of this has a political violence. And

466
00:16:46,007 --> 00:16:48,342
not only does it have a political violence

467
00:16:48,892 --> 00:16:50,028
that that political

468
00:16:50,560 --> 00:16:53,760
dimension is the most important fact

469
00:16:54,292 --> 00:16:56,118
about those preferences and behaviors.

470
00:16:56,848 --> 00:16:59,571
And so the idea of being sort of

471
00:16:59,785 --> 00:17:02,722
political in the classroom or in your art,

472
00:17:03,039 --> 00:17:05,103
okay? When you're writing or doing anything else.

473
00:17:05,755 --> 00:17:06,975
Is totally an ethic

474
00:17:07,595 --> 00:17:10,955
to this notion of the personal being political.

475
00:17:11,434 --> 00:17:11,914
And

476
00:17:12,394 --> 00:17:15,046
Marxism and social realism. Of course, Of course,

477
00:17:15,284 --> 00:17:17,743
that's right. And and that's right. It... The

478
00:17:17,743 --> 00:17:20,757
idea is a kind of pod politics. Okay?

479
00:17:20,915 --> 00:17:22,184
And and this is really like,

480
00:17:22,994 --> 00:17:24,452
in my view, the

481
00:17:24,989 --> 00:17:26,127
concern I have

482
00:17:26,745 --> 00:17:28,580
more than anything maybe with this kind of

483
00:17:28,580 --> 00:17:32,023
far less leftist politics is that it doesn't

484
00:17:32,023 --> 00:17:34,727
leave room for private space. It doesn't leave

485
00:17:34,727 --> 00:17:35,784
room for the personal

486
00:17:36,159 --> 00:17:39,022
anywhere divorced from this sort of political super

487
00:17:39,022 --> 00:17:41,895
structure. It's total. Okay? And

488
00:17:43,005 --> 00:17:45,226
so my experience in teaching,

489
00:17:45,861 --> 00:17:46,416
I was just...

490
00:17:47,146 --> 00:17:50,085
Unable to at some point, kind of make

491
00:17:50,085 --> 00:17:52,412
this separation. And then when the Trump

492
00:17:53,739 --> 00:17:55,584
election happened in 2016,

493
00:17:55,743 --> 00:17:57,021
I was a Trump supporter.

494
00:17:57,579 --> 00:18:00,613
And while I wasn't vocal about my politics.

495
00:18:00,932 --> 00:18:03,168
Because again, my preference is to leave that

496
00:18:03,168 --> 00:18:04,205
to my private life,

497
00:18:05,339 --> 00:18:07,816
it just became un 10 at some point.

498
00:18:07,976 --> 00:18:10,294
And I sort of limp along for a

499
00:18:10,294 --> 00:18:12,371
while, and my wife was also in the

500
00:18:12,371 --> 00:18:13,250
program with me.

501
00:18:14,144 --> 00:18:15,975
And, eventually in 2020,

502
00:18:16,294 --> 00:18:16,931
Covid hits,

503
00:18:18,444 --> 00:18:19,422
school shutdown.

504
00:18:19,958 --> 00:18:21,891
Okay. We we're not even, like, doing anything

505
00:18:22,108 --> 00:18:22,347
anymore.

506
00:18:23,079 --> 00:18:25,626
And we scatter to the winds, we left

507
00:18:25,626 --> 00:18:28,732
to a different state. And in 2022,

508
00:18:28,891 --> 00:18:30,483
they were gonna call us back to campus

509
00:18:30,483 --> 00:18:30,722
now.

510
00:18:31,454 --> 00:18:33,688
The other complicating fact there is that they

511
00:18:33,688 --> 00:18:35,603
wanted us to get vaccinated owner to come

512
00:18:35,603 --> 00:18:36,423
back to campus

513
00:18:37,119 --> 00:18:39,923
for my own reasons, I... Wasn't going to

514
00:18:39,923 --> 00:18:41,432
do that. My wife wasn't going to do

515
00:18:41,432 --> 00:18:41,908
that either.

516
00:18:42,782 --> 00:18:43,894
And so we had to make a decision

517
00:18:43,894 --> 00:18:44,768
about what to do next.

518
00:18:45,880 --> 00:18:47,015
And I decided

519
00:18:47,483 --> 00:18:48,540
given my background

520
00:18:49,232 --> 00:18:51,140
and what was annie animating me at the

521
00:18:51,140 --> 00:18:53,843
time and still does this sort of what

522
00:18:54,002 --> 00:18:55,170
I I feel like there's this sort of

523
00:18:55,369 --> 00:18:57,222
urgent need for

524
00:18:57,678 --> 00:19:00,885
a new kind of literature and intellectual landscape

525
00:19:01,340 --> 00:19:03,035
on the right in particular,

526
00:19:03,823 --> 00:19:05,278
though I don't wanna be

527
00:19:06,051 --> 00:19:07,880
too sort of... I I don't wanna pigeon

528
00:19:07,880 --> 00:19:08,937
hole what we're doing

529
00:19:09,471 --> 00:19:11,736
as being sort of 2 or overt

530
00:19:12,508 --> 00:19:14,178
ideological, though there's elements of that.

531
00:19:15,847 --> 00:19:19,028
But given the need for this new intellectual

532
00:19:19,028 --> 00:19:20,949
space as far as I was I was

533
00:19:20,949 --> 00:19:22,850
concerned. I started this publishing company.

534
00:19:24,039 --> 00:19:26,970
And it's called passage press, passage dot press.

535
00:19:28,179 --> 00:19:29,777
And we can get into what we do

536
00:19:29,777 --> 00:19:32,253
at passage, but that's the origin story. That's

537
00:19:32,253 --> 00:19:34,091
where I'm coming from. Happy to fill in

538
00:19:34,091 --> 00:19:34,730
any details.

539
00:19:36,975 --> 00:19:40,555
There's an overwhelming theme both in your social

540
00:19:40,555 --> 00:19:42,009
media content and

541
00:19:42,558 --> 00:19:45,182
I just the most recent article of yours

542
00:19:45,182 --> 00:19:45,738
that I read?

543
00:19:46,453 --> 00:19:48,918
The long house maybe? Yes. Long house. That's

544
00:19:48,918 --> 00:19:49,474
it. Yeah.

545
00:19:50,924 --> 00:19:52,444
And it sort of reflects that sort of

546
00:19:52,444 --> 00:19:53,505
panic feeling

547
00:19:54,285 --> 00:19:55,005
that a lot of us...

548
00:19:55,805 --> 00:19:57,325
That a lot of people feel and and

549
00:19:57,325 --> 00:19:58,384
and people who aren't

550
00:20:00,847 --> 00:20:01,347
passionate

551
00:20:02,353 --> 00:20:03,249
about their

552
00:20:03,938 --> 00:20:04,438
life

553
00:20:05,048 --> 00:20:05,548
that

554
00:20:05,999 --> 00:20:06,816
they have

555
00:20:07,204 --> 00:20:08,962
grown up in and in a country that

556
00:20:08,962 --> 00:20:10,241
they've grown up in and who are not

557
00:20:10,241 --> 00:20:13,138
necessarily intellectual. Yep. You can really

558
00:20:13,597 --> 00:20:14,876
discern in social media,

559
00:20:16,247 --> 00:20:18,628
the the sense of panic. Mh.

560
00:20:19,740 --> 00:20:21,724
I wanna now throw something up on the

561
00:20:21,724 --> 00:20:23,414
screen, but I think you'll find it

562
00:20:23,884 --> 00:20:24,384
really

563
00:20:24,684 --> 00:20:27,025
intriguing. It it is from a Youtuber

564
00:20:27,884 --> 00:20:28,384
named

565
00:20:31,977 --> 00:20:34,282
And he... He's in South African ex patriot.

566
00:20:34,441 --> 00:20:36,110
It's gonna... I'm gonna play 2 minutes.

567
00:20:36,826 --> 00:20:38,415
And I wanna use it to sort of

568
00:20:38,415 --> 00:20:40,005
frame the rest of our discussion.

569
00:20:41,053 --> 00:20:43,520
I'm talking about this massive problem that American

570
00:20:43,520 --> 00:20:43,758
has.

571
00:20:46,941 --> 00:20:48,851
You know, every time, every single time I

572
00:20:48,851 --> 00:20:50,851
look at social media turn on the Tv

573
00:20:50,851 --> 00:20:52,857
on the news. I'm bombarded by this

574
00:20:53,230 --> 00:20:53,730
this

575
00:20:54,102 --> 00:20:57,297
negative chaotic view of America. You see

576
00:20:57,922 --> 00:21:00,383
riots on campus. More than a dozen people

577
00:21:00,383 --> 00:21:02,765
who arrested out of 5 State University overnight.

578
00:21:03,162 --> 00:21:04,909
You see homeless people,

579
00:21:05,718 --> 00:21:06,513
drug addicts.

580
00:21:07,150 --> 00:21:08,263
You see gun violence.

581
00:21:08,820 --> 00:21:10,729
You see urban decay.

582
00:21:11,684 --> 00:21:14,404
You see Disney village passing around as if

583
00:21:14,404 --> 00:21:17,588
they're attractive or something. You see just in

584
00:21:17,588 --> 00:21:19,657
general, a country in decline.

585
00:21:21,268 --> 00:21:22,946
There's just 1 problem movements,

586
00:21:24,305 --> 00:21:25,584
and that problem is that I live in

587
00:21:25,743 --> 00:21:26,063
America,

588
00:21:26,702 --> 00:21:28,141
and I have lived here now for 5

589
00:21:28,141 --> 00:21:28,460
years.

590
00:21:29,674 --> 00:21:30,174
And

591
00:21:31,112 --> 00:21:31,751
this stuff,

592
00:21:32,790 --> 00:21:34,388
although alone it exists, I just don't see

593
00:21:34,388 --> 00:21:34,548
it.

594
00:21:35,586 --> 00:21:37,917
If I walk outside now, but go downtown

595
00:21:37,917 --> 00:21:39,354
now to get a restaurant or something. I'm

596
00:21:39,354 --> 00:21:41,270
not gonna see any of that stuff. And

597
00:21:41,270 --> 00:21:44,384
that's because that stuff is so amplified and

598
00:21:44,384 --> 00:21:46,081
so overblown, not only by

599
00:21:46,474 --> 00:21:49,342
people locally in America but by ad aerial

600
00:21:49,342 --> 00:21:52,449
powers abroad and just the international community as

601
00:21:52,449 --> 00:21:55,417
a whole. They will... Amplify every negative aspect

602
00:21:55,417 --> 00:21:57,015
of Americans to make it look as if

603
00:21:57,015 --> 00:21:59,811
this place is falling apart and on fire,

604
00:22:00,863 --> 00:22:02,792
So I wanted to talk about this because

605
00:22:03,323 --> 00:22:04,752
I'm not some sort of fresh off the

606
00:22:04,752 --> 00:22:06,736
boat tourists here. I've lived in American now

607
00:22:06,736 --> 00:22:07,292
for 5 years.

608
00:22:08,419 --> 00:22:10,570
I'm not an American fan boy either. I

609
00:22:10,570 --> 00:22:12,882
love America. I think it's a phenomenal country.

610
00:22:13,041 --> 00:22:14,157
I'll get that a little bit.

611
00:22:15,033 --> 00:22:15,533
But

612
00:22:16,244 --> 00:22:18,005
Having lived here for 5 years, I've had

613
00:22:18,005 --> 00:22:19,865
to deal with all the it pitfalls to

614
00:22:20,164 --> 00:22:21,305
this absolutely

615
00:22:22,085 --> 00:22:24,565
insanely expensive medical system. I mean, my...

616
00:22:25,535 --> 00:22:28,159
My medical insurance cost me more than my

617
00:22:28,159 --> 00:22:30,329
rent and all of my monthly

618
00:22:31,021 --> 00:22:33,327
bills in in China for instance, just for

619
00:22:33,327 --> 00:22:35,013
my medical insurance. Stupid.

620
00:22:35,571 --> 00:22:37,406
Have to deal with that. Of course, I've

621
00:22:37,406 --> 00:22:39,001
had to deal with the government lot here

622
00:22:39,001 --> 00:22:42,511
in every aspect of getting driver's licenses and

623
00:22:43,388 --> 00:22:45,475
registering, you know, my daughter are being born

624
00:22:45,475 --> 00:22:47,625
going through the medical system in social security

625
00:22:47,625 --> 00:22:48,523
members, and

626
00:22:48,979 --> 00:22:51,231
everything you can think of course, paying tax,

627
00:22:51,607 --> 00:22:54,012
and dealing with that, which is look very

628
00:22:54,012 --> 00:22:56,643
overly complicated in American for some reason. But,

629
00:22:56,723 --> 00:22:58,477
you know, I had a deal with pretty

630
00:22:58,477 --> 00:22:59,833
much everything that's...

631
00:23:00,471 --> 00:23:01,826
Most people would complain about.

632
00:23:02,399 --> 00:23:04,308
And there are definitely some things to complain

633
00:23:04,308 --> 00:23:04,944
about America.

634
00:23:05,819 --> 00:23:06,319
But

635
00:23:07,649 --> 00:23:08,944
before we even get into

636
00:23:09,414 --> 00:23:11,719
this nonsense because I've I figured it out.

637
00:23:11,878 --> 00:23:14,581
I understand why this phenomenon happens and we'll

638
00:23:14,581 --> 00:23:16,273
get into that. So

639
00:23:18,338 --> 00:23:18,897
Is he right?

640
00:23:19,936 --> 00:23:21,774
Yeah. I mean, look, it's a useful...

641
00:23:22,173 --> 00:23:24,330
I I think I'm just reading from your

642
00:23:24,810 --> 00:23:26,181
from your comments there. I saw on the

643
00:23:26,181 --> 00:23:28,014
screen. It is a useful perspective. And

644
00:23:28,891 --> 00:23:30,268
I think we have to be careful

645
00:23:30,804 --> 00:23:33,275
about not being, sort of overly hysterical.

646
00:23:33,849 --> 00:23:34,327
And

647
00:23:34,806 --> 00:23:35,125
sort of,

648
00:23:36,163 --> 00:23:38,636
just sitting here in our, like, bunker waiting

649
00:23:38,636 --> 00:23:41,923
for, civil war breakout or something because there

650
00:23:41,923 --> 00:23:44,874
is still, I think, by and large a

651
00:23:44,874 --> 00:23:46,491
sort of sense that things are

652
00:23:47,666 --> 00:23:50,537
you know, functional or operational that

653
00:23:51,509 --> 00:23:53,343
you know, neighbors aren't like,

654
00:23:54,379 --> 00:23:57,170
even red, blue neighbors, you know, can sort

655
00:23:57,170 --> 00:23:59,322
of get along or there's this sort of

656
00:23:59,322 --> 00:24:01,750
cold piece like, across these political

657
00:24:02,924 --> 00:24:03,402
divides.

658
00:24:04,039 --> 00:24:04,539
But

659
00:24:05,792 --> 00:24:07,009
I would question

660
00:24:08,197 --> 00:24:11,378
whether or not things are trending in a

661
00:24:11,378 --> 00:24:14,240
good direction or a bad direction. And there's

662
00:24:14,240 --> 00:24:16,069
a kind of sense that in, you know,

663
00:24:16,387 --> 00:24:18,632
the the old saying about the boiling pot,

664
00:24:19,111 --> 00:24:22,622
just because the frogs don't feel immediately, like,

665
00:24:23,101 --> 00:24:25,336
they're about to die or or turn into

666
00:24:25,336 --> 00:24:27,664
soup. Doesn't mean that they're not getting cooked

667
00:24:27,664 --> 00:24:29,897
to death. And I think if we look

668
00:24:29,897 --> 00:24:32,870
at our institutions and we look at

669
00:24:33,487 --> 00:24:35,183
and and did some comparison

670
00:24:36,374 --> 00:24:37,972
you know, we could pick the date we

671
00:24:37,972 --> 00:24:40,769
wanna go back to, let's say, again, you

672
00:24:40,769 --> 00:24:42,687
know, I'm I'm biased towards this sort of

673
00:24:42,687 --> 00:24:44,685
period I grew up in, let's say, and

674
00:24:44,685 --> 00:24:47,811
the in the nineties, although that was not

675
00:24:47,811 --> 00:24:49,645
perfect either and that had its own sort

676
00:24:49,645 --> 00:24:50,385
of path.

677
00:24:52,277 --> 00:24:54,565
But we can we can ask ourselves our

678
00:24:54,684 --> 00:24:56,994
things as good as they ought to be

679
00:24:56,994 --> 00:24:59,486
given the level of American d

680
00:24:59,862 --> 00:25:01,137
in terms of our economy,

681
00:25:02,506 --> 00:25:05,055
or are things trending in a bad direction?

682
00:25:05,453 --> 00:25:07,764
You know, I'm I'm thinking, for example of

683
00:25:07,764 --> 00:25:11,444
this kind of underlying social fabric that's someone

684
00:25:11,444 --> 00:25:12,483
like Robert Putnam,

685
00:25:13,122 --> 00:25:15,280
you know, wrote about and books like Bowling

686
00:25:15,280 --> 00:25:17,597
alone or our kids, where you look at

687
00:25:17,597 --> 00:25:19,835
this dis integration of social trust,

688
00:25:20,964 --> 00:25:22,099
in in communities,

689
00:25:23,265 --> 00:25:25,804
across different classes and ethnic groups.

690
00:25:26,835 --> 00:25:28,525
In our kids, he

691
00:25:28,834 --> 00:25:31,546
sort of identifies that our public schools, for

692
00:25:31,546 --> 00:25:34,258
example, which ought to be the centerpiece of

693
00:25:34,258 --> 00:25:37,129
our sort of civic life have lost their

694
00:25:37,129 --> 00:25:38,267
ability to

695
00:25:39,216 --> 00:25:39,716
effectively

696
00:25:40,489 --> 00:25:43,113
serve the function that they're supposed to. And

697
00:25:43,113 --> 00:25:45,260
as a result of these institutions and we

698
00:25:45,260 --> 00:25:46,612
could scale all the way up to higher

699
00:25:46,612 --> 00:25:49,825
ed, But the civic institutions are basically dis.

700
00:25:50,355 --> 00:25:52,100
And people are kind of going their own

701
00:25:52,100 --> 00:25:54,400
ways and forming these sort of ad hoc,

702
00:25:55,129 --> 00:25:57,224
sort of communities of of of

703
00:25:58,160 --> 00:26:00,314
affinity groups of 1 kind or another,

704
00:26:00,952 --> 00:26:01,452
and

705
00:26:01,989 --> 00:26:04,222
this isn't good in the long term in

706
00:26:04,222 --> 00:26:04,780
my view.

707
00:26:06,073 --> 00:26:08,071
And so what do we do about this

708
00:26:08,071 --> 00:26:11,907
sort of underlying dis integration of things like

709
00:26:11,907 --> 00:26:14,065
social trust of atom amortization,

710
00:26:14,639 --> 00:26:17,191
you look at marriage rates and fertility rates,

711
00:26:17,590 --> 00:26:19,823
and all these different data points and the

712
00:26:19,823 --> 00:26:20,860
macro trends.

713
00:26:21,338 --> 00:26:23,412
And, yeah, okay, this guy can walk out.

714
00:26:23,571 --> 00:26:25,895
By the way, being from South Africa, I

715
00:26:25,895 --> 00:26:29,077
hope America doesn't look. As bad is what

716
00:26:29,077 --> 00:26:31,225
he's tried that's so good. You picked up

717
00:26:31,225 --> 00:26:32,736
on what on my second point, which was

718
00:26:32,736 --> 00:26:35,702
that He's from South Africa as of... Or

719
00:26:35,702 --> 00:26:37,218
he lived there 5 years ago. He's from

720
00:26:37,218 --> 00:26:38,175
the South Africa,

721
00:26:38,734 --> 00:26:39,872
not the South Africa

722
00:26:40,503 --> 00:26:41,618
4 white people

723
00:26:42,255 --> 00:26:42,755
Existed

724
00:26:43,210 --> 00:26:46,475
40 years ago, but the absolute health scape

725
00:26:46,634 --> 00:26:47,828
South Africa is today.

726
00:26:48,799 --> 00:26:50,557
But but also and I I you you

727
00:26:50,557 --> 00:26:52,235
nailed it when you mentioned public schools.

728
00:26:54,711 --> 00:26:55,211
People

729
00:26:56,323 --> 00:26:58,472
think they're walking down of beautiful street. Yeah.

730
00:26:58,870 --> 00:27:00,461
They think their children are coming home with

731
00:27:00,461 --> 00:27:02,451
beautiful products from public school and singing pretty

732
00:27:02,451 --> 00:27:03,486
songs. They,

733
00:27:04,362 --> 00:27:04,862
unfortunately,

734
00:27:05,969 --> 00:27:07,802
Yes. Yes. Yes. It is a good perspective.

735
00:27:08,041 --> 00:27:08,520
Don't panic.

736
00:27:09,158 --> 00:27:10,274
We are still America,

737
00:27:10,991 --> 00:27:12,825
but you have no idea what's going on

738
00:27:12,825 --> 00:27:14,989
in those public schools. That's right. You have

739
00:27:14,989 --> 00:27:17,474
no freaking idea. It's it is

740
00:27:18,006 --> 00:27:18,482
insane.

741
00:27:18,959 --> 00:27:19,673
It's insane,

742
00:27:20,547 --> 00:27:21,047
and

743
00:27:21,738 --> 00:27:22,476
not only

744
00:27:24,772 --> 00:27:26,704
is it... Yes. I'm not experiencing

745
00:27:27,477 --> 00:27:29,465
violence in the street personally right now.

746
00:27:30,595 --> 00:27:32,035
Looking out the window Ben had. I can

747
00:27:32,035 --> 00:27:32,994
go him man manhattan at any time it's

748
00:27:32,994 --> 00:27:34,595
into midtown and walk around and have a

749
00:27:34,595 --> 00:27:37,255
very nice New York experience. The differences is

750
00:27:37,474 --> 00:27:38,755
when things don't go right.

751
00:27:39,730 --> 00:27:41,090
Not only that they don't go right, because

752
00:27:41,090 --> 00:27:43,250
it's... I grew up during the the rides

753
00:27:43,250 --> 00:27:45,250
of the sixties, You know, III,

754
00:27:45,330 --> 00:27:46,549
you know... I've been

755
00:27:46,944 --> 00:27:48,321
not during award

756
00:27:48,699 --> 00:27:49,177
machine at all.

757
00:27:49,895 --> 00:27:51,969
The difference was in those days, authority was

758
00:27:51,969 --> 00:27:55,159
on the side of the majority. Authority was

759
00:27:55,159 --> 00:27:57,009
on the side of order and law. And

760
00:27:57,009 --> 00:27:57,727
now it's not.

761
00:27:58,446 --> 00:28:00,362
So I I think he his perspective is

762
00:28:00,362 --> 00:28:02,677
useful from a psychological and social point of

763
00:28:02,677 --> 00:28:04,354
view, and it's good to get it from

764
00:28:04,354 --> 00:28:06,270
someone who is a recent immigrant.

765
00:28:06,924 --> 00:28:07,424
But

766
00:28:08,924 --> 00:28:10,444
I think he's missing. I do think you're

767
00:28:10,444 --> 00:28:13,484
right. He he's missing some underlying problems that

768
00:28:13,484 --> 00:28:14,924
do not trend well.

769
00:28:16,138 --> 00:28:17,415
Yeah. So I... You know,

770
00:28:18,533 --> 00:28:21,486
I'm not someone who thinks that like a

771
00:28:21,486 --> 00:28:23,561
civil wars around the corner, and you do

772
00:28:23,561 --> 00:28:25,489
sort of hear some of that rhetoric online.

773
00:28:25,648 --> 00:28:27,640
And I think there's a certain amount of

774
00:28:27,640 --> 00:28:30,110
people who who sort of want that. Okay?

775
00:28:30,270 --> 00:28:32,518
They they desired that. But what did they

776
00:28:32,518 --> 00:28:34,037
even ring? But but what do they mean

777
00:28:34,037 --> 00:28:35,635
by it? It it it's such a name...

778
00:28:35,955 --> 00:28:37,393
Obviously, it doesn't mean like a warranty in

779
00:28:37,393 --> 00:28:39,790
the state's kind of situation. That's literally impossible.

780
00:28:40,684 --> 00:28:40,924
Yeah.

781
00:28:41,562 --> 00:28:43,239
I mean, there is... I mean, I've had

782
00:28:43,239 --> 00:28:46,193
more than 1 guest on this program who

783
00:28:46,193 --> 00:28:48,189
have asserted that there is a civil war.

784
00:28:48,348 --> 00:28:50,319
It's already underway and so we have to

785
00:28:50,519 --> 00:28:52,119
So if you mean that there's a culture

786
00:28:52,119 --> 00:28:54,119
war... Yeah. And there's a sort of a

787
00:28:54,119 --> 00:28:54,619
clot

788
00:28:55,079 --> 00:28:56,679
fine. That is true. Yeah.

789
00:28:58,132 --> 00:28:59,883
I don't know. But to you... But you're

790
00:28:59,883 --> 00:29:01,714
right. Do do we want to...

791
00:29:03,226 --> 00:29:04,579
Well, there is a look. There's a struggle

792
00:29:04,579 --> 00:29:05,773
going on. This is what you're writing about.

793
00:29:05,932 --> 00:29:07,047
Is what you're observing. Yeah.

794
00:29:07,699 --> 00:29:09,875
I mean, III don't wanna discount the possibility

795
00:29:10,412 --> 00:29:12,567
of that happening either. So while it's not

796
00:29:12,567 --> 00:29:14,642
at our at our doorstep right now,

797
00:29:16,807 --> 00:29:18,877
it certainly could be. I mean, I'm thinking

798
00:29:18,877 --> 00:29:19,195
of

799
00:29:20,309 --> 00:29:22,560
it's kind of an outrageous book, but the

800
00:29:23,825 --> 00:29:24,144
military,

801
00:29:25,098 --> 00:29:25,598
historian,

802
00:29:25,972 --> 00:29:26,472
scholar,

803
00:29:26,847 --> 00:29:29,074
William Lin. Are you familiar with William Lin.

804
00:29:29,233 --> 00:29:32,436
He he coined the term fourth generation warfare,

805
00:29:33,704 --> 00:29:35,325
he wrote he wrote a novel

806
00:29:35,865 --> 00:29:36,904
called victory,

807
00:29:38,265 --> 00:29:40,684
which was about a kind of civil war

808
00:29:41,224 --> 00:29:41,724
unfolding

809
00:29:42,518 --> 00:29:45,462
according to the sort of fourth generation warfare

810
00:29:45,462 --> 00:29:47,395
principles that he wrote about elsewhere,

811
00:29:48,487 --> 00:29:48,987
it's

812
00:29:50,173 --> 00:29:52,796
in Laura detail where almost get the sense

813
00:29:52,796 --> 00:29:54,624
that he was sort of, like, enjoying himself

814
00:29:54,624 --> 00:29:55,839
a little too much

815
00:29:56,213 --> 00:29:57,008
as he's sort like,

816
00:29:57,819 --> 00:30:00,612
writing about a kind of army of, like,

817
00:30:01,091 --> 00:30:01,591
Jefferson,

818
00:30:02,528 --> 00:30:03,486
Agrarian, you know,

819
00:30:04,284 --> 00:30:08,205
farmers, like American Ko essentially, like, rising up

820
00:30:08,205 --> 00:30:08,705
to

821
00:30:09,081 --> 00:30:11,470
take on the bolsheviks. Okay? Like, in the

822
00:30:11,470 --> 00:30:12,505
universities and stuff.

823
00:30:13,222 --> 00:30:14,598
And while I

824
00:30:15,227 --> 00:30:18,903
doubt that this kind of kinetic warfare

825
00:30:19,277 --> 00:30:20,094
or spontaneous

826
00:30:20,944 --> 00:30:22,373
coordination between these factions,

827
00:30:23,104 --> 00:30:25,283
is even possible in our current circumstances,

828
00:30:25,821 --> 00:30:27,740
maybe precisely because of a lot of the

829
00:30:27,740 --> 00:30:29,897
lack of social trust and sort of atom

830
00:30:29,897 --> 00:30:31,016
amortization that that we see.

831
00:30:32,789 --> 00:30:34,702
It does sort of reading that sort of

832
00:30:34,702 --> 00:30:37,413
thing. Does remind you, a, like, look, these

833
00:30:37,413 --> 00:30:40,224
things are possible. They do happen. And and

834
00:30:40,362 --> 00:30:40,522
like,

835
00:30:41,254 --> 00:30:42,767
we don't have to go so far back

836
00:30:42,767 --> 00:30:44,939
in history to see a time when

837
00:30:45,474 --> 00:30:48,443
an otherwise sort of stable nation started cracking

838
00:30:48,501 --> 00:30:50,348
apart and it was you know,

839
00:30:50,987 --> 00:30:53,780
slow, but then happens all at once. And

840
00:30:53,939 --> 00:30:55,456
I think we have to be mindful of

841
00:30:55,456 --> 00:30:57,530
the possibility for something like that happening.

842
00:30:58,183 --> 00:31:00,112
I don't personally see see

843
00:31:00,485 --> 00:31:02,389
where that could start, and I don't want

844
00:31:02,389 --> 00:31:04,056
it to happen. I may have 3 young

845
00:31:04,056 --> 00:31:05,191
kids. I'm not

846
00:31:06,218 --> 00:31:08,852
hungry for a hot war. I... I... That

847
00:31:08,852 --> 00:31:11,326
would be sort of a horrific possibility. There

848
00:31:11,326 --> 00:31:13,720
are better ways to solve our underlying problems.

849
00:31:14,054 --> 00:31:14,554
However,

850
00:31:16,052 --> 00:31:17,810
it may be possible, but also...

851
00:31:18,369 --> 00:31:19,808
Okay. The the last thing I wanna say

852
00:31:19,808 --> 00:31:20,846
on this, we can move on to the

853
00:31:20,846 --> 00:31:22,145
next point though is that

854
00:31:23,178 --> 00:31:25,094
What this guy is identifying. This kind of

855
00:31:25,094 --> 00:31:25,334
like,

856
00:31:26,611 --> 00:31:29,666
comfortable S that he sees and that

857
00:31:30,044 --> 00:31:30,544
the

858
00:31:31,481 --> 00:31:31,981
trouble

859
00:31:32,773 --> 00:31:35,428
in the the sort of cultural flash points

860
00:31:36,524 --> 00:31:37,343
are merely

861
00:31:37,721 --> 00:31:39,817
a kind of illusion or spectacle

862
00:31:40,289 --> 00:31:42,274
of online digital life,

863
00:31:42,830 --> 00:31:45,713
just simply isn't true. I mean, I remember,

864
00:31:45,928 --> 00:31:47,754
you know, going back to 2020,

865
00:31:48,469 --> 00:31:49,502
the George Floyd Riots.

866
00:31:51,027 --> 00:31:52,220
It so happened that the...

867
00:31:53,572 --> 00:31:55,003
I mean, this is a personal thing, but

868
00:31:55,003 --> 00:31:55,083
we...

869
00:31:55,878 --> 00:31:57,548
The restaurant where my wife and I had

870
00:31:57,548 --> 00:31:59,710
our rehearsal dinner, for example, got burned down

871
00:31:59,710 --> 00:32:01,459
in 1 of these riots. Okay? 1 of

872
00:32:01,459 --> 00:32:01,936
these cities.

873
00:32:02,731 --> 00:32:03,606
As an example,

874
00:32:04,242 --> 00:32:04,980
we saw

875
00:32:05,514 --> 00:32:06,332
what was

876
00:32:06,866 --> 00:32:07,366
real

877
00:32:08,872 --> 00:32:09,372
violence,

878
00:32:10,069 --> 00:32:11,367
and that was certainly

879
00:32:12,065 --> 00:32:13,124
that had the possibility

880
00:32:13,501 --> 00:32:16,316
to escalate into something much more severe

881
00:32:16,708 --> 00:32:19,170
and into discount that something like that wouldn't

882
00:32:19,170 --> 00:32:21,869
happen again and happen rather quickly as I

883
00:32:21,869 --> 00:32:22,664
think very naive.

884
00:32:23,219 --> 00:32:25,681
But we also had a totalitarian experience and...

885
00:32:26,094 --> 00:32:26,811
Between then and now.

886
00:32:27,847 --> 00:32:28,745
The Covid

887
00:32:30,635 --> 00:32:31,591
years. Yeah.

888
00:32:32,309 --> 00:32:35,677
Were a bona fide totalitarian experience

889
00:32:37,257 --> 00:32:37,757
where

890
00:32:38,843 --> 00:32:41,246
it didn't have that Connecticut, that kinetic

891
00:32:42,570 --> 00:32:45,204
aspect or to a large extent, it did

892
00:32:45,204 --> 00:32:46,340
not have the c

893
00:32:47,429 --> 00:32:48,565
aspect in the

894
00:32:49,495 --> 00:32:51,799
in the military sense. But but but the

895
00:32:51,799 --> 00:32:54,385
c act aspect was right was

896
00:32:55,560 --> 00:32:56,836
right there. It was right there.

897
00:32:57,953 --> 00:32:58,453
And

898
00:32:59,469 --> 00:33:00,984
it was not a test that we passed

899
00:33:00,984 --> 00:33:02,260
with flying colors. No.

900
00:33:03,308 --> 00:33:06,008
And and it also it it resulted in

901
00:33:06,008 --> 00:33:06,826
a further

902
00:33:07,437 --> 00:33:09,899
deterioration of the trust society. Yep.

903
00:33:10,788 --> 00:33:11,662
And of the bonds.

904
00:33:12,933 --> 00:33:14,521
So believe it or not, we've been talking

905
00:33:14,521 --> 00:33:15,554
for over half an hour.

906
00:33:17,873 --> 00:33:19,246
In your overall

907
00:33:19,936 --> 00:33:20,436
world,

908
00:33:22,476 --> 00:33:23,746
what do you think is gonna work?

909
00:33:24,777 --> 00:33:25,650
If that, you know,

910
00:33:26,618 --> 00:33:28,048
You're not obviously abandoning it.

911
00:33:29,241 --> 00:33:31,148
When past view buchanan was writing.

912
00:33:31,625 --> 00:33:32,102
Mh.

913
00:33:32,817 --> 00:33:34,645
There was something to grab onto.

914
00:33:36,091 --> 00:33:38,258
Although even then I think he was

915
00:33:38,870 --> 00:33:41,673
fooling himself through fooling himself about

916
00:33:42,046 --> 00:33:43,078
what other catholics.

917
00:33:43,808 --> 00:33:47,151
Mh. Thought about social issues. Mh. He was

918
00:33:47,151 --> 00:33:48,208
already, I think

919
00:33:49,857 --> 00:33:52,006
they were already past him moving moving left

920
00:33:52,006 --> 00:33:52,403
as a group.

921
00:33:54,804 --> 00:33:55,757
40 years later.

922
00:33:58,538 --> 00:33:59,038
There

923
00:34:01,018 --> 00:34:04,067
your product of inter marriage. Yeah. People don't

924
00:34:04,125 --> 00:34:04,625
make

925
00:34:05,001 --> 00:34:05,979
life commitments

926
00:34:07,073 --> 00:34:07,812
outside of

927
00:34:08,204 --> 00:34:09,804
you you used a very important term before,

928
00:34:11,005 --> 00:34:12,125
which I promptly forgotten.

929
00:34:15,164 --> 00:34:16,478
You know, atom,

930
00:34:16,934 --> 00:34:18,525
like, I I'm... I live in a sub

931
00:34:18,525 --> 00:34:21,072
culture of orthodox juice. Mh. And for us,

932
00:34:21,231 --> 00:34:23,062
it's going great guns. Yeah.

933
00:34:23,871 --> 00:34:26,328
We are very cog... Very cognizant of what's

934
00:34:26,328 --> 00:34:27,358
going on around us.

935
00:34:28,230 --> 00:34:30,211
And as is typically the case with sub

936
00:34:30,211 --> 00:34:30,528
cultures,

937
00:34:31,179 --> 00:34:34,360
it reinforces our belief that we're doing it

938
00:34:34,360 --> 00:34:36,349
right, like how badly they're doing it.

939
00:34:37,065 --> 00:34:37,565
But

940
00:34:38,592 --> 00:34:40,661
it's not good for anyone involved for it

941
00:34:40,661 --> 00:34:42,890
to go to hell, especially that us. It's

942
00:34:42,890 --> 00:34:43,527
especially right.

943
00:34:44,164 --> 00:34:45,300
And evangelical

944
00:34:46,248 --> 00:34:48,019
I I don't know. I what's

945
00:34:48,950 --> 00:34:51,596
to me the obvious leap is always to

946
00:34:51,652 --> 00:34:53,640
faith, but that might not work in the

947
00:34:53,640 --> 00:34:54,514
20 first century.

948
00:34:55,324 --> 00:34:57,103
Well, I think it's a

949
00:34:57,642 --> 00:35:00,679
necessary, but insufficient condition. Okay. I do think

950
00:35:01,318 --> 00:35:04,115
Theory. Yeah. But, well, maybe maybe not. I

951
00:35:04,115 --> 00:35:04,275
mean,

952
00:35:05,569 --> 00:35:06,369
you know, there's...

953
00:35:07,329 --> 00:35:09,989
The there really isn't a kind of like

954
00:35:10,049 --> 00:35:10,549
robust

955
00:35:11,250 --> 00:35:11,750
secular

956
00:35:12,289 --> 00:35:15,103
answer to faith community. What you see instead

957
00:35:15,103 --> 00:35:16,802
are these sort of nominally

958
00:35:17,181 --> 00:35:17,681
secular

959
00:35:18,779 --> 00:35:20,558
affinity groups, substitute

960
00:35:21,257 --> 00:35:22,795
traditional religion with

961
00:35:23,269 --> 00:35:25,521
you know, like, W, These sort of quasi

962
00:35:25,738 --> 00:35:27,331
religions of 1 kind or another.

963
00:35:28,128 --> 00:35:30,677
And so it's it's gonna be religion, no

964
00:35:30,677 --> 00:35:33,162
matter what. It's just what is the nature

965
00:35:33,162 --> 00:35:35,397
of that of the... Of these religious beliefs

966
00:35:35,397 --> 00:35:38,371
because they aren't even though sort of liberal

967
00:35:38,430 --> 00:35:39,409
or progressive

968
00:35:40,026 --> 00:35:40,345
religions,

969
00:35:40,918 --> 00:35:43,005
or or what they would call ideologies

970
00:35:43,457 --> 00:35:45,361
or grounded in a faith of a kind.

971
00:35:45,837 --> 00:35:48,241
I mean, they they don't have any better

972
00:35:48,376 --> 00:35:50,478
access to first principles than

973
00:35:50,932 --> 00:35:53,235
anyone else, they might fool themselves to lube

974
00:35:53,235 --> 00:35:55,459
themselves into thinking they do. But, you know,

975
00:35:55,697 --> 00:35:57,939
I much prefer the honesty of of a

976
00:35:57,939 --> 00:36:00,177
group of people who just commits themselves to

977
00:36:00,177 --> 00:36:01,855
a God and said that's that's where it's

978
00:36:01,855 --> 00:36:03,713
coming from. I mean, it's it's,

979
00:36:04,252 --> 00:36:06,625
look, my own religious beliefs aside. It's just

980
00:36:06,824 --> 00:36:08,496
it's more likely to be true, and it's

981
00:36:08,496 --> 00:36:10,749
a better answer from a

982
00:36:11,524 --> 00:36:12,024
strictly,

983
00:36:13,037 --> 00:36:15,746
sort of utilitarian or functional perspective in my

984
00:36:15,746 --> 00:36:17,057
view. Okay. So

985
00:36:17,673 --> 00:36:19,824
that's 1 thing. I also, look, if you're

986
00:36:19,824 --> 00:36:22,056
if you're asking me for, like, answers about

987
00:36:22,056 --> 00:36:24,460
how to get through this, and sort of

988
00:36:24,460 --> 00:36:26,688
breakthrough through. I'm I'm sorry. I don't have

989
00:36:26,688 --> 00:36:29,393
an answer. And because I don't have an

990
00:36:29,393 --> 00:36:31,087
answer and sort of

991
00:36:31,397 --> 00:36:34,253
almost dis trust anybody who is so committed

992
00:36:34,253 --> 00:36:36,632
to 1 answer that, you know, they they

993
00:36:36,632 --> 00:36:38,481
are excluding other possibilities,

994
00:36:39,504 --> 00:36:41,739
is this is why, you know, free speech

995
00:36:41,739 --> 00:36:43,973
and this sort of new intellectual environment is

996
00:36:43,973 --> 00:36:45,809
so important to me. We need to throw

997
00:36:45,809 --> 00:36:47,325
a lot of stuff at the wall and

998
00:36:47,325 --> 00:36:49,326
see what's sticks and we don't know ahead

999
00:36:49,326 --> 00:36:49,802
of time,

1000
00:36:50,358 --> 00:36:52,444
what is going to be the most effective,

1001
00:36:53,134 --> 00:36:55,538
sort of ideological or cultural tools

1002
00:36:56,324 --> 00:36:59,988
to get us through this impasse, and it's

1003
00:36:59,988 --> 00:37:02,219
a mistake. Also, I should say, you know,

1004
00:37:02,378 --> 00:37:05,485
in reaction of various kinds, I think fall

1005
00:37:05,485 --> 00:37:07,334
into the trap of thinking, okay. Well, we

1006
00:37:07,334 --> 00:37:09,408
can just return to something that came before

1007
00:37:09,408 --> 00:37:10,525
us. And

1008
00:37:11,163 --> 00:37:13,396
you know, George Bush, 1 of the few

1009
00:37:13,396 --> 00:37:15,802
things he said that was very wise was,

1010
00:37:16,437 --> 00:37:17,945
I think we can all agree the past

1011
00:37:17,945 --> 00:37:20,327
is over. And I think there's there's something...

1012
00:37:20,803 --> 00:37:22,787
Almost a yogi bar. Yeah. Yeah. That's right.

1013
00:37:22,946 --> 00:37:25,346
But, you know, there's something was profound about

1014
00:37:25,346 --> 00:37:27,657
that. We have to go forward, we have

1015
00:37:27,657 --> 00:37:29,649
to push through. And even if...

1016
00:37:30,684 --> 00:37:31,742
Okay. So 1

1017
00:37:32,133 --> 00:37:33,797
sort of topic of mind that I think

1018
00:37:33,797 --> 00:37:35,383
is important that a lot of people have

1019
00:37:35,383 --> 00:37:37,706
begun to sort of... It's it's become actually

1020
00:37:37,840 --> 00:37:40,237
mainstream in a sense and give credit to

1021
00:37:40,237 --> 00:37:43,345
people like Christopher Caldwell, and Chris Ru, Richard

1022
00:37:43,424 --> 00:37:46,532
10, for example, say, okay, let's revisit civil

1023
00:37:46,532 --> 00:37:47,010
rights law.

1024
00:37:47,662 --> 00:37:50,548
And let's really think about, like, the functional

1025
00:37:50,923 --> 00:37:53,547
effects of certain aspects of civil rights law,

1026
00:37:53,706 --> 00:37:55,297
like, dis disparate impact, for example.

1027
00:37:55,869 --> 00:37:57,785
And let's really sort of take a hard

1028
00:37:57,785 --> 00:37:59,860
look at whether or not these are solving

1029
00:37:59,860 --> 00:38:01,876
the problems that they were intended to solve

1030
00:38:02,095 --> 00:38:04,545
or creating new problems or whatever the case

1031
00:38:04,585 --> 00:38:06,905
man. And that process is underway. Disparate impact

1032
00:38:07,224 --> 00:38:10,025
In hanging by a slim thread. Which and

1033
00:38:10,025 --> 00:38:11,005
and I

1034
00:38:11,385 --> 00:38:14,036
would love to see desperate disparate impact go

1035
00:38:14,036 --> 00:38:15,871
the way of affirmative action. Okay? This is...

1036
00:38:16,111 --> 00:38:17,468
I think very important, although,

1037
00:38:18,187 --> 00:38:20,262
even with affirmative action, you know, there's a

1038
00:38:20,262 --> 00:38:21,161
concept called

1039
00:38:22,431 --> 00:38:22,931
manipulating

1040
00:38:23,306 --> 00:38:25,238
procedural outcomes. Like, even if you

1041
00:38:26,250 --> 00:38:29,194
sort of azure outlaw these things, there are

1042
00:38:29,194 --> 00:38:30,808
ways of sort of manipulating

1043
00:38:31,200 --> 00:38:34,099
policies and regulations and how certain

1044
00:38:34,559 --> 00:38:36,400
sort of policies are put into effect to

1045
00:38:36,400 --> 00:38:36,900
achieve

1046
00:38:37,360 --> 00:38:39,280
right d factor facto, the same outcomes that

1047
00:38:39,280 --> 00:38:41,206
the laws and that the previous law, the

1048
00:38:41,206 --> 00:38:43,352
status quo was intended to achieve. So I

1049
00:38:43,352 --> 00:38:45,180
wanna be careful about focusing too much on

1050
00:38:45,180 --> 00:38:47,088
law, But now back to the general point

1051
00:38:47,088 --> 00:38:49,652
is even if we can undo, let's say,

1052
00:38:49,972 --> 00:38:52,523
disparate impact or these major pillars of civil

1053
00:38:52,523 --> 00:38:53,002
rights law.

1054
00:38:53,959 --> 00:38:56,112
It's not gonna be a return to pre

1055
00:38:56,112 --> 00:38:58,436
civil rights rights law. We're gonna now be

1056
00:38:58,436 --> 00:39:00,506
in a future in which there was a

1057
00:39:00,506 --> 00:39:02,974
thing called civil rights law and had this,

1058
00:39:03,054 --> 00:39:05,698
you know, half a century history in which

1059
00:39:05,698 --> 00:39:06,975
it was in effect and,

1060
00:39:08,013 --> 00:39:10,328
changed the sort of fabric of our institutions

1061
00:39:10,328 --> 00:39:10,987
in bureau.

1062
00:39:11,765 --> 00:39:14,135
And now after that, we're gonna have to

1063
00:39:14,574 --> 00:39:17,531
confront this new context and operate within this

1064
00:39:17,531 --> 00:39:18,271
new context

1065
00:39:18,730 --> 00:39:21,526
in which that past existed. So there there

1066
00:39:21,526 --> 00:39:23,855
just is no going back. It has to

1067
00:39:23,855 --> 00:39:27,345
be a forward looking vision. And this is

1068
00:39:27,345 --> 00:39:29,328
why... So some of the people we publish,

1069
00:39:29,487 --> 00:39:31,097
for example, Nick Land

1070
00:39:31,723 --> 00:39:32,223
he's

1071
00:39:32,679 --> 00:39:35,146
sort of coined to this term neo reaction,

1072
00:39:35,942 --> 00:39:38,353
which is this kind of highly theoretical

1073
00:39:38,887 --> 00:39:40,807
sort of concept of,

1074
00:39:42,472 --> 00:39:44,398
sort of right wing politics

1075
00:39:45,483 --> 00:39:46,538
that has certain

1076
00:39:47,164 --> 00:39:47,664
complicated

1077
00:39:48,445 --> 00:39:50,285
answers to some of these questions or Curtis

1078
00:39:50,445 --> 00:39:50,925
Y,

1079
00:39:51,485 --> 00:39:53,664
who is a self identifying monarch,

1080
00:39:53,965 --> 00:39:54,364
you know,

1081
00:39:56,057 --> 00:39:58,125
I try to him. Yeah. Yeah. He... He's

1082
00:39:58,125 --> 00:39:59,636
a very interesting guy. You guys would have

1083
00:39:59,636 --> 00:40:00,989
a great conversation, and I'm sure.

1084
00:40:02,500 --> 00:40:04,748
Okay Now whether or not you agree with

1085
00:40:04,748 --> 00:40:06,125
any of these particular

1086
00:40:06,503 --> 00:40:08,098
prescriptions that these guys are making,

1087
00:40:08,656 --> 00:40:10,251
and an I for now will just sort

1088
00:40:10,251 --> 00:40:12,086
of remain agnostic on that question.

1089
00:40:12,739 --> 00:40:14,657
It's important for us to consider these things.

1090
00:40:14,897 --> 00:40:16,495
Okay? It's it's important for us to sort

1091
00:40:16,495 --> 00:40:18,013
of be thinking outside the box.

1092
00:40:18,652 --> 00:40:20,331
I think we have to approach this as

1093
00:40:20,331 --> 00:40:21,230
a kind of

1094
00:40:21,864 --> 00:40:25,719
intellectual sort of ideological Manhattan project. There's no

1095
00:40:27,695 --> 00:40:28,309
sort of

1096
00:40:29,063 --> 00:40:30,039
potential or possibility

1097
00:40:30,649 --> 00:40:31,149
for

1098
00:40:31,680 --> 00:40:34,297
solution that should be discounted on its face.

1099
00:40:34,693 --> 00:40:37,573
We we have to find, like, smart, thoughtful

1100
00:40:37,573 --> 00:40:40,550
people. And if they're pushing in a particular

1101
00:40:40,849 --> 00:40:42,927
direction, let's follow them and see where that

1102
00:40:42,927 --> 00:40:44,785
goes. And if there are

1103
00:40:45,417 --> 00:40:47,964
of good practical reasons why we shouldn't pursue

1104
00:40:47,964 --> 00:40:50,033
that any further then we retreat and go

1105
00:40:50,033 --> 00:40:51,704
on to the next path, and it's like,

1106
00:40:52,102 --> 00:40:53,932
finding your way through a maze, and I

1107
00:40:53,932 --> 00:40:54,432
think

1108
00:40:54,744 --> 00:40:56,656
People are afraid of this. Okay? People are

1109
00:40:56,656 --> 00:40:58,488
afraid of ideas. They're afraid of new things.

1110
00:40:58,648 --> 00:41:00,560
They're afraid of ideas that are outside the

1111
00:41:00,560 --> 00:41:03,523
box. They want to sort of say, constrained

1112
00:41:03,523 --> 00:41:05,755
within this comfortable overt window that they've grown

1113
00:41:05,755 --> 00:41:08,464
a accustomed to. And I guess, if anything

1114
00:41:08,464 --> 00:41:10,393
else, my project is to just come in

1115
00:41:10,393 --> 00:41:11,911
and sort of blow that whole thing up

1116
00:41:11,911 --> 00:41:14,068
and say, no. Okay. This this isn't gonna

1117
00:41:14,068 --> 00:41:15,506
be the way we find a solution. We

1118
00:41:15,506 --> 00:41:16,545
have to be more creative,

1119
00:41:16,959 --> 00:41:18,873
we have to be more sort of intellectually

1120
00:41:18,873 --> 00:41:21,425
radical in some sense. To combat the kind

1121
00:41:21,425 --> 00:41:21,925
of

1122
00:41:22,542 --> 00:41:24,935
intellectual radical of the left, and that doesn't

1123
00:41:24,935 --> 00:41:26,552
mean falling into the same

1124
00:41:27,501 --> 00:41:29,968
sort of path and traps that they fall

1125
00:41:29,968 --> 00:41:31,401
into, but we have to be open to

1126
00:41:31,401 --> 00:41:33,868
new ideas. And and I want to really

1127
00:41:33,868 --> 00:41:35,619
put that on the table for those of

1128
00:41:35,619 --> 00:41:36,177
us on the right.

1129
00:41:36,829 --> 00:41:39,060
And that and and part of that learning

1130
00:41:39,060 --> 00:41:41,212
process is, you know, and and a lot

1131
00:41:41,212 --> 00:41:41,792
of the

1132
00:41:42,248 --> 00:41:44,161
G people who, you know, file...

1133
00:41:45,211 --> 00:41:48,155
Many of our friends. Yeah. And us. Yeah.

1134
00:41:50,382 --> 00:41:50,882
This

1135
00:41:51,257 --> 00:41:52,132
this bullshit,

1136
00:41:53,658 --> 00:41:55,487
penny, you know, Dime racism.

1137
00:41:55,964 --> 00:41:56,123
Yeah.

1138
00:41:57,793 --> 00:41:59,701
Yeah. I I get it. You have to

1139
00:41:59,701 --> 00:42:01,791
be a lot more realistic about

1140
00:42:02,245 --> 00:42:02,961
racial policy.

1141
00:42:03,373 --> 00:42:03,873
And

1142
00:42:04,646 --> 00:42:07,351
racial politics and sis all the things. Yeah.

1143
00:42:07,909 --> 00:42:08,409
But

1144
00:42:08,863 --> 00:42:10,000
we're here now

1145
00:42:11,030 --> 00:42:14,409
we're here now, we're we're not going back

1146
00:42:14,469 --> 00:42:16,250
to whatever it is you think was

1147
00:42:16,630 --> 00:42:18,230
before that was better. Yeah.

1148
00:42:20,324 --> 00:42:21,362
Familiar at all with,

1149
00:42:23,517 --> 00:42:24,155
Michael Bur,

1150
00:42:25,353 --> 00:42:26,072
say it causes.

1151
00:42:26,710 --> 00:42:29,206
Mh. So that... He he writes a

1152
00:42:29,599 --> 00:42:31,614
he he is a a great

1153
00:42:32,391 --> 00:42:33,907
phenomenal story. And not... I would not call

1154
00:42:33,907 --> 00:42:34,704
him a conservative.

1155
00:42:37,032 --> 00:42:39,105
But I wouldn't but I would call someone

1156
00:42:39,105 --> 00:42:42,155
who's who had historically been very critical of

1157
00:42:42,770 --> 00:42:43,828
a lot of the

1158
00:42:44,619 --> 00:42:46,637
trends that we're talking about. Never mind that

1159
00:42:46,936 --> 00:42:48,055
3.63 it's wrong.

1160
00:42:52,864 --> 00:42:54,483
Your... The structure that you've

1161
00:42:55,501 --> 00:42:57,019
chosen to to

1162
00:42:57,578 --> 00:42:59,576
tackle this is not to start a think

1163
00:42:59,576 --> 00:42:59,815
tank.

1164
00:43:01,509 --> 00:43:04,306
Or university, but to publish books get them

1165
00:43:04,306 --> 00:43:06,703
out there. Yeah. I mean, you know, I

1166
00:43:06,703 --> 00:43:10,070
would consider other avenues for doing this and,

1167
00:43:11,022 --> 00:43:13,402
we have, sort of discussed the possibility of

1168
00:43:13,402 --> 00:43:15,307
a sort of 5 of A1C3

1169
00:43:15,307 --> 00:43:17,711
arm of this organization where we can

1170
00:43:18,178 --> 00:43:20,639
do certain things where we're not, they're sort

1171
00:43:20,639 --> 00:43:23,020
of t to making a profit. And certainly,

1172
00:43:23,179 --> 00:43:25,004
that would be useful. And I have... What

1173
00:43:25,004 --> 00:43:26,433
you're putting up on the screen now is

1174
00:43:26,433 --> 00:43:26,885
a

1175
00:43:27,242 --> 00:43:29,967
art contest because I think actually that

1176
00:43:31,216 --> 00:43:31,716
non

1177
00:43:32,090 --> 00:43:32,590
explicit

1178
00:43:33,442 --> 00:43:36,952
ideological art you know, storytelling really is the

1179
00:43:36,952 --> 00:43:39,732
basis for whatever comes next. We have to

1180
00:43:39,732 --> 00:43:42,217
be able to tell ourselves sort of stories

1181
00:43:43,544 --> 00:43:44,044
that

1182
00:43:44,672 --> 00:43:45,172
model

1183
00:43:45,708 --> 00:43:48,279
what a sort of productive

1184
00:43:48,655 --> 00:43:51,603
and flourishing life looks like, not only in

1185
00:43:51,603 --> 00:43:53,378
our present environment, but

1186
00:43:53,689 --> 00:43:54,903
in whatever environment

1187
00:43:55,752 --> 00:43:58,054
comes next. So I think that's a that's

1188
00:43:58,054 --> 00:44:00,276
a really important component to this. I do

1189
00:44:00,276 --> 00:44:01,094
wanna just

1190
00:44:01,404 --> 00:44:03,559
briefly go back though to this question of,

1191
00:44:03,718 --> 00:44:05,554
like, what what you called sort of dime

1192
00:44:05,554 --> 00:44:06,373
store racism

1193
00:44:06,751 --> 00:44:08,826
and Oh, you know, this kind of, like,

1194
00:44:09,800 --> 00:44:10,300
vulgar

1195
00:44:11,000 --> 00:44:11,659
sort of

1196
00:44:12,039 --> 00:44:14,199
reactionary politics of various kinds.

1197
00:44:16,199 --> 00:44:18,775
Again, like, as a more or less free

1198
00:44:18,775 --> 00:44:21,335
speech maximal on these questions anyway.

1199
00:44:21,894 --> 00:44:23,434
I think we have to sort of

1200
00:44:23,894 --> 00:44:24,394
entertain

1201
00:44:24,695 --> 00:44:25,255
if not,

1202
00:44:25,908 --> 00:44:26,408
the

1203
00:44:26,942 --> 00:44:27,442
specific

1204
00:44:27,975 --> 00:44:30,542
arguments they're making, which are pretty

1205
00:44:30,996 --> 00:44:32,665
very often, not all the time, but are

1206
00:44:32,665 --> 00:44:33,594
often easily

1207
00:44:33,953 --> 00:44:35,787
identifiable as being just sort of wrong on

1208
00:44:35,787 --> 00:44:38,498
their face. Okay? Like, we should sort of

1209
00:44:38,498 --> 00:44:41,130
push back against those claims and identify why

1210
00:44:41,130 --> 00:44:42,860
they're wrong and and show the right

1211
00:44:43,297 --> 00:44:44,411
answer to those questions. But,

1212
00:44:45,286 --> 00:44:47,115
you know, by the way, some of these

1213
00:44:47,115 --> 00:44:48,411
people might be

1214
00:44:49,184 --> 00:44:49,684
making

1215
00:44:50,233 --> 00:44:50,733
critiques

1216
00:44:51,186 --> 00:44:52,777
that are important for us to listen to.

1217
00:44:53,174 --> 00:44:54,923
And are important for us to

1218
00:44:55,957 --> 00:44:56,275
you know,

1219
00:44:56,991 --> 00:44:57,809
reflect on

1220
00:44:58,199 --> 00:45:00,528
And and at least ask, okay. Why

1221
00:45:01,460 --> 00:45:03,927
are the certain set of critiques whether they're

1222
00:45:03,927 --> 00:45:05,063
aimed at

1223
00:45:05,374 --> 00:45:08,171
you know, Jews or various... Like, Jews ought

1224
00:45:08,171 --> 00:45:09,231
not to be exempt

1225
00:45:09,609 --> 00:45:12,246
from these kinds of critiques. And I don't

1226
00:45:12,246 --> 00:45:14,893
wanna say, okay. Well, it's just this sort

1227
00:45:14,893 --> 00:45:17,458
of, like, vulgar anti semitism therefore

1228
00:45:18,228 --> 00:45:19,499
ignore it. No.

1229
00:45:20,373 --> 00:45:23,152
Let's look right. They're like, hundred percent. There's

1230
00:45:23,152 --> 00:45:23,605
something

1231
00:45:24,124 --> 00:45:24,624
and,

1232
00:45:25,163 --> 00:45:26,782
you know, the there is something

1233
00:45:27,161 --> 00:45:28,060
there's a reason

1234
00:45:29,557 --> 00:45:31,635
that there's an audience for that now. And

1235
00:45:31,635 --> 00:45:32,329
it's not

1236
00:45:32,688 --> 00:45:33,885
because the Been thrown out of a hundred

1237
00:45:33,885 --> 00:45:34,704
and 25.

1238
00:45:35,082 --> 00:45:36,858
It's it's because

1239
00:45:37,236 --> 00:45:38,693
we have to make a reckoning

1240
00:45:41,163 --> 00:45:43,181
All Americans have to make a reckoning of

1241
00:45:43,720 --> 00:45:44,220
what

1242
00:45:44,599 --> 00:45:45,738
contributes to our culture

1243
00:45:46,117 --> 00:45:47,656
and who creates that culture

1244
00:45:48,035 --> 00:45:48,535
and

1245
00:45:49,010 --> 00:45:50,230
what are the

1246
00:45:51,570 --> 00:45:52,070
ideological

1247
00:45:52,690 --> 00:45:54,769
and social forces that make it what it

1248
00:45:54,769 --> 00:45:54,929
is?

1249
00:45:55,570 --> 00:45:57,090
Yeah. And I mean, you know,

1250
00:45:59,344 --> 00:46:02,144
look, I this... It's it's a complicated question,

1251
00:46:02,304 --> 00:46:02,784
but

1252
00:46:04,545 --> 00:46:05,045
it's

1253
00:46:05,344 --> 00:46:06,304
perfectly reasonable.

1254
00:46:07,277 --> 00:46:08,492
For a

1255
00:46:08,945 --> 00:46:10,319
certain segment of Americans

1256
00:46:10,693 --> 00:46:11,885
to look at,

1257
00:46:12,521 --> 00:46:14,666
our foreign policy over the last 2 decades.

1258
00:46:15,063 --> 00:46:15,143
Okay?

1259
00:46:16,274 --> 00:46:19,071
And say, and ask themselves and look at...

1260
00:46:19,231 --> 00:46:20,749
For example, the previous group... Like, look at

1261
00:46:20,749 --> 00:46:22,667
the Neo cons in their position on foreign

1262
00:46:22,667 --> 00:46:24,345
policy and whatever else and to say,

1263
00:46:24,999 --> 00:46:26,057
is it the case

1264
00:46:26,515 --> 00:46:27,813
that our foreign policy

1265
00:46:28,429 --> 00:46:30,286
is in some sense being subordinate

1266
00:46:30,983 --> 00:46:31,483
by

1267
00:46:32,194 --> 00:46:32,672
a,

1268
00:46:34,348 --> 00:46:36,044
preference toward Israel

1269
00:46:36,740 --> 00:46:39,713
and that that is somehow having a negative

1270
00:46:39,851 --> 00:46:42,257
effect on our foreign policy more broadly. I'm

1271
00:46:42,257 --> 00:46:43,528
not asking you to answer that question. We

1272
00:46:43,528 --> 00:46:44,720
don't need to get into the weeds, but

1273
00:46:44,720 --> 00:46:47,262
it's a perfectly legitimate question to ask. Absolutely.

1274
00:46:47,580 --> 00:46:50,202
And just because people are asking that question,

1275
00:46:50,693 --> 00:46:52,836
we can't just dismiss them and say, oh,

1276
00:46:53,074 --> 00:46:55,637
this is some kind of vulgar anti semitism,

1277
00:46:56,010 --> 00:46:58,311
how dare you noticed that the Neo cons

1278
00:46:58,311 --> 00:46:58,788
were Jewish.

1279
00:46:59,359 --> 00:47:01,679
Okay. They were. So let's reckon with that

1280
00:47:01,679 --> 00:47:04,400
fact. It's okay to reckon with that fact.

1281
00:47:04,960 --> 00:47:07,610
Awesome. And so... And, you know, And frankly,

1282
00:47:07,850 --> 00:47:09,466
when it comes to questions like

1283
00:47:10,481 --> 00:47:12,474
anti semitism in the Us. It's my view

1284
00:47:12,474 --> 00:47:14,706
that organizations like the Ad, for example,

1285
00:47:15,279 --> 00:47:15,779
have

1286
00:47:16,316 --> 00:47:19,768
verified many of the complaints that people make

1287
00:47:20,306 --> 00:47:22,481
about, you know, Jews sort of

1288
00:47:23,353 --> 00:47:26,330
focusing exclusively on anti semitic rhetoric

1289
00:47:26,789 --> 00:47:29,605
and using the power that they

1290
00:47:30,478 --> 00:47:33,533
have in media, for example, to to silence

1291
00:47:33,592 --> 00:47:36,465
or suppress views that are critical of of

1292
00:47:36,625 --> 00:47:38,621
Jews. And and I think they're doing themselves

1293
00:47:38,621 --> 00:47:40,074
to the disservice. Now think there's a kind

1294
00:47:40,074 --> 00:47:40,735
of s

1295
00:47:41,114 --> 00:47:42,974
relationship between the Ad on the 1 hand

1296
00:47:43,275 --> 00:47:45,195
and and and sort of this vulgar grant

1297
00:47:45,275 --> 00:47:47,446
I semitism on the other hand. They give

1298
00:47:47,446 --> 00:47:49,753
each other a purpose. Okay. Like, their they're

1299
00:47:49,753 --> 00:47:52,163
their own raised on d. So

1300
00:47:52,776 --> 00:47:54,152
it's hard to sort of dis

1301
00:47:54,686 --> 00:47:55,720
the incentives there.

1302
00:47:56,372 --> 00:47:59,558
But anyway, I I just wanna say that

1303
00:47:59,558 --> 00:48:02,027
all of these questions are perfectly legitimate. We

1304
00:48:02,027 --> 00:48:03,882
have to have... We have to be confident

1305
00:48:04,019 --> 00:48:04,519
enough

1306
00:48:05,308 --> 00:48:07,295
in our public discourse and our ability to

1307
00:48:07,295 --> 00:48:08,272
sort of make arguments

1308
00:48:08,646 --> 00:48:11,293
and make the case to accommodate

1309
00:48:11,668 --> 00:48:13,991
these sorts of views And, you know, I

1310
00:48:13,991 --> 00:48:16,701
think back on it's something my father used

1311
00:48:16,701 --> 00:48:17,020
to

1312
00:48:17,976 --> 00:48:20,766
celebrate. As kind of the high watermark of...

1313
00:48:21,338 --> 00:48:24,910
You know, America and American ism, whatever that

1314
00:48:24,910 --> 00:48:27,132
meant in the late twentieth century. And it

1315
00:48:27,132 --> 00:48:28,029
was the Ac,

1316
00:48:28,720 --> 00:48:30,638
you of course, defending the the Nazis and

1317
00:48:30,797 --> 00:48:33,493
Sk Illinois. Okay. Right. That's that's always... Just

1318
00:48:33,493 --> 00:48:33,731
like,

1319
00:48:34,365 --> 00:48:36,719
not only was it sort of in, of

1320
00:48:36,998 --> 00:48:38,990
the right thing to do and sort of

1321
00:48:38,990 --> 00:48:40,526
serve the purpose of the Ac,

1322
00:48:41,460 --> 00:48:43,155
but it also demonstrated

1323
00:48:44,264 --> 00:48:47,377
this self confidence in who we were. Okay?

1324
00:48:47,776 --> 00:48:51,208
We could do this. We we had the

1325
00:48:51,208 --> 00:48:52,245
sort of strength,

1326
00:48:52,899 --> 00:48:53,956
and this

1327
00:48:54,492 --> 00:48:54,992
resilience

1328
00:48:55,527 --> 00:48:56,005
and

1329
00:48:56,563 --> 00:48:58,098
belief in our own values

1330
00:48:59,271 --> 00:49:02,391
to make a stand like that And I

1331
00:49:02,391 --> 00:49:04,778
think 1 thing we've lost is that sort

1332
00:49:04,778 --> 00:49:06,608
of self confidence. I think all of us

1333
00:49:06,608 --> 00:49:07,824
sort of feel like

1334
00:49:08,199 --> 00:49:10,445
these believe... That we hold dear, whether it's

1335
00:49:10,445 --> 00:49:12,599
free speech and you see this like in,

1336
00:49:13,876 --> 00:49:16,270
concerns over misinformation and misinformation disinformation. We've got

1337
00:49:16,270 --> 00:49:18,203
a make sure that these people can't have

1338
00:49:18,203 --> 00:49:20,120
these ideas or this article about me and

1339
00:49:20,120 --> 00:49:21,239
my publishing company.

1340
00:49:21,958 --> 00:49:24,276
This is derived from a lack of confidence

1341
00:49:24,276 --> 00:49:24,995
in who we are.

1342
00:49:25,729 --> 00:49:27,265
There is a crisis

1343
00:49:27,722 --> 00:49:30,034
of our belief in what it means to

1344
00:49:30,034 --> 00:49:30,911
be American.

1345
00:49:31,310 --> 00:49:33,781
And 1 of the ways this is expressed

1346
00:49:33,781 --> 00:49:35,570
is this... Through this kind of...

1347
00:49:36,342 --> 00:49:36,842
Totalitarian,

1348
00:49:37,296 --> 00:49:40,157
sort of speech norms, the censorship norms.

1349
00:49:41,429 --> 00:49:43,201
And so anyway, I don't have

1350
00:49:43,909 --> 00:49:45,742
you know, again, a great answer for how

1351
00:49:45,742 --> 00:49:48,532
we combat this, but, it's a serious problem,

1352
00:49:48,692 --> 00:49:50,047
and it it you simply just can't be

1353
00:49:50,047 --> 00:49:51,721
the case that we ignore anybody,

1354
00:49:52,214 --> 00:49:54,601
who makes critiques of us or or jews

1355
00:49:54,601 --> 00:49:56,353
or blacks or pick your group.

1356
00:49:56,989 --> 00:49:58,581
Everybody's open. Let's all put our cards on

1357
00:49:58,581 --> 00:50:00,829
the table and make the case Okay? That's

1358
00:50:00,910 --> 00:50:02,590
1 of the most fun things about social

1359
00:50:02,590 --> 00:50:04,590
media In fact is that you can make

1360
00:50:04,590 --> 00:50:05,090
friends

1361
00:50:05,390 --> 00:50:07,390
with woke black people and

1362
00:50:08,269 --> 00:50:10,989
Orthodox jewish people and Woke Atheists and Woke

1363
00:50:11,148 --> 00:50:13,605
Catholics. And in a way that you might

1364
00:50:13,605 --> 00:50:14,897
not in meat space

1365
00:50:15,824 --> 00:50:16,324
and

1366
00:50:17,744 --> 00:50:19,435
these are the people who are the most

1367
00:50:19,571 --> 00:50:22,455
comfortable talking about the problems within their groups

1368
00:50:23,147 --> 00:50:23,647
because

1369
00:50:24,594 --> 00:50:26,509
Why when I say, woke, I mean, I

1370
00:50:26,509 --> 00:50:29,483
mean, based. I see. Okay. I mean, our

1371
00:50:29,701 --> 00:50:30,180
hours.

1372
00:50:30,659 --> 00:50:31,536
Yeah. Hour woke.

1373
00:50:32,909 --> 00:50:34,347
The... You know, it's...

1374
00:50:35,146 --> 00:50:36,505
Because in a way, that the the risk

1375
00:50:36,505 --> 00:50:38,343
free aspect of social media that is so

1376
00:50:38,343 --> 00:50:41,000
cor in many respects. Also enables

1377
00:50:42,028 --> 00:50:44,565
interaction that you otherwise would never have. Yeah.

1378
00:50:49,900 --> 00:50:51,820
Do you have any concerns though that, at

1379
00:50:51,820 --> 00:50:53,519
the end of the day, what your

1380
00:50:54,539 --> 00:50:56,559
your prescription of, you know, let's just

1381
00:50:57,832 --> 00:50:59,983
what's let's have... Let's have ideas. Let's have

1382
00:50:59,983 --> 00:51:00,802
free expression

1383
00:51:01,497 --> 00:51:01,997
is

1384
00:51:02,373 --> 00:51:03,192
really just

1385
00:51:03,568 --> 00:51:06,357
another version of the liberal that has gotten

1386
00:51:06,357 --> 00:51:06,755
us here.

1387
00:51:07,408 --> 00:51:10,060
In other words, it's it's this sort of

1388
00:51:10,516 --> 00:51:12,429
counter argument that there are some forces that

1389
00:51:12,429 --> 00:51:13,168
are so

1390
00:51:14,103 --> 00:51:16,747
cor. And and so Anti empathetic to these

1391
00:51:16,747 --> 00:51:17,247
values

1392
00:51:18,340 --> 00:51:20,173
that perhaps and I does a discussion I've

1393
00:51:20,173 --> 00:51:21,846
had with Michael K a couple of times.

1394
00:51:22,165 --> 00:51:24,015
So because I I kind of asked what,

1395
00:51:24,653 --> 00:51:27,366
let's say we do draw the line and

1396
00:51:27,366 --> 00:51:29,121
say, you know, well what would the founding

1397
00:51:29,121 --> 00:51:32,152
fathers have thought? And therefore, we're not going

1398
00:51:32,152 --> 00:51:34,292
to admit into the Path of civil religion,

1399
00:51:36,590 --> 00:51:38,755
Devil Worship okay, Again. Like that, it standing

1400
00:51:38,755 --> 00:51:40,373
by itself, that sounds fine, but

1401
00:51:40,911 --> 00:51:42,746
as a practical matter, how does that how

1402
00:51:42,746 --> 00:51:44,422
does that work at a plural society? I

1403
00:51:44,422 --> 00:51:46,191
don't see how it can. I mean, you

1404
00:51:46,191 --> 00:51:48,578
know, you're the lawyer, you're the legal scholar.

1405
00:51:48,817 --> 00:51:51,284
I'm not gonna, pretend as if if free

1406
00:51:51,284 --> 00:51:54,546
speech law, in particular isn't a complicated mess.

1407
00:51:54,960 --> 00:51:55,760
And that,

1408
00:51:57,920 --> 00:52:00,640
upholding, sort of principles of free speech,

1409
00:52:02,894 --> 00:52:04,594
you know, doesn't come with

1410
00:52:05,215 --> 00:52:07,315
certain costs and certain drawbacks

1411
00:52:07,775 --> 00:52:09,235
and of requirement

1412
00:52:10,189 --> 00:52:12,738
for a certain kind of tolerance of ideas

1413
00:52:12,738 --> 00:52:15,708
that, yes, may be so cor

1414
00:52:16,562 --> 00:52:16,960
that,

1415
00:52:18,315 --> 00:52:18,713
they...

1416
00:52:19,763 --> 00:52:22,545
Could overturn the sort of very tolerance that

1417
00:52:22,545 --> 00:52:23,975
allows them to exist in the first place,

1418
00:52:24,134 --> 00:52:27,075
You know, the the paradox of tolerance. Okay?

1419
00:52:29,077 --> 00:52:31,621
And I'm, you know, I've made this joke

1420
00:52:31,621 --> 00:52:33,371
before when the right wins,

1421
00:52:34,007 --> 00:52:34,745
I'm perfectly

1422
00:52:35,358 --> 00:52:36,949
aware that they're gonna sort of put me

1423
00:52:36,949 --> 00:52:39,054
against the wall for my. You

1424
00:52:39,588 --> 00:52:41,260
commitment to free speech.

1425
00:52:42,215 --> 00:52:43,887
I think I'm okay with that. Like, I

1426
00:52:43,887 --> 00:52:45,638
like I'm, like, I'm okay with that. That's

1427
00:52:45,638 --> 00:52:47,707
the particular role that I serve.

1428
00:52:49,477 --> 00:52:50,994
But I think we really do...

1429
00:52:51,552 --> 00:52:52,989
IIIII

1430
00:52:52,989 --> 00:52:54,048
also think it's

1431
00:52:54,426 --> 00:52:55,485
it's a bit of

1432
00:52:55,863 --> 00:52:56,981
naive or...

1433
00:52:58,434 --> 00:53:01,150
A kind of, like sofa street to assume

1434
00:53:01,150 --> 00:53:03,009
that we can't make

1435
00:53:04,187 --> 00:53:05,326
meaningful practical

1436
00:53:05,705 --> 00:53:06,025
decisions,

1437
00:53:06,597 --> 00:53:09,081
about where and how to apply these principles.

1438
00:53:09,851 --> 00:53:10,566
And so,

1439
00:53:11,598 --> 00:53:14,867
you know, a state or public sponsored, like

1440
00:53:14,946 --> 00:53:16,614
Drag queen show for kids,

1441
00:53:17,725 --> 00:53:18,463
does that

1442
00:53:19,154 --> 00:53:22,592
rise to the same levels of protection for

1443
00:53:23,139 --> 00:53:25,075
you know, political speech as

1444
00:53:25,771 --> 00:53:26,271
a

1445
00:53:26,888 --> 00:53:27,207
you know,

1446
00:53:27,845 --> 00:53:29,998
a book by ernst younger or something?

1447
00:53:30,637 --> 00:53:32,551
Well, going going to your point about,

1448
00:53:33,282 --> 00:53:35,583
Again, here we... We're we're not where we

1449
00:53:35,583 --> 00:53:38,518
were in 19 65. We're we're 2024.

1450
00:53:39,788 --> 00:53:42,184
That might very well mean that we can

1451
00:53:42,184 --> 00:53:43,160
acknowledge that

1452
00:53:44,327 --> 00:53:47,049
the burger court to talk about speech

1453
00:53:47,661 --> 00:53:49,565
on the Warren court, in particular, the warren

1454
00:53:49,565 --> 00:53:49,724
court,

1455
00:53:51,252 --> 00:53:53,246
made some bad calls. They made some bad

1456
00:53:53,246 --> 00:53:54,623
calls. That they they

1457
00:53:55,399 --> 00:53:58,452
read the first amendment free speech guarantee

1458
00:53:58,829 --> 00:53:59,568
as guaranteeing

1459
00:54:00,679 --> 00:54:03,414
things that were really never contemplated

1460
00:54:04,830 --> 00:54:07,086
and that have resulted in

1461
00:54:07,704 --> 00:54:08,922
real societal

1462
00:54:09,953 --> 00:54:10,271
cost.

1463
00:54:10,986 --> 00:54:11,224
Yes.

1464
00:54:11,860 --> 00:54:14,006
And we don't have to throw out the

1465
00:54:14,006 --> 00:54:15,755
first amendment and the and the concept of

1466
00:54:15,755 --> 00:54:16,629
free speech to say,

1467
00:54:17,598 --> 00:54:19,666
let's make better decisions. Sort of like the

1468
00:54:19,905 --> 00:54:21,654
Supreme Court did with affirmative action.

1469
00:54:22,529 --> 00:54:23,029
We

1470
00:54:24,279 --> 00:54:25,313
institutional, we were wrong.

1471
00:54:26,204 --> 00:54:26,922
Yeah. And

1472
00:54:27,561 --> 00:54:28,780
you know, I I

1473
00:54:30,355 --> 00:54:32,910
I'm not sure, like, where I would say

1474
00:54:32,910 --> 00:54:34,666
the court has been wrong in the past

1475
00:54:34,666 --> 00:54:37,070
about this or that. Decision over free speech

1476
00:54:37,070 --> 00:54:38,581
and we could probably sit here for hours

1477
00:54:38,581 --> 00:54:39,853
and, like, go through the nuances of that.

1478
00:54:40,250 --> 00:54:41,920
It's actually very interesting and and sort of

1479
00:54:41,920 --> 00:54:44,400
very important, and I think in terms of

1480
00:54:44,400 --> 00:54:47,583
establishing precedent, and not just where speech is

1481
00:54:47,583 --> 00:54:49,572
allowed, but what constitutes speech? I mean, when

1482
00:54:49,572 --> 00:54:51,083
we're talking about speech, what does that even

1483
00:54:51,083 --> 00:54:51,959
mean? And

1484
00:54:52,929 --> 00:54:54,067
what are the boundaries

1485
00:54:54,604 --> 00:54:57,396
of, like, a speech act that we want

1486
00:54:57,396 --> 00:54:59,868
to protect under this thing called the first

1487
00:54:59,868 --> 00:55:02,123
amendment versus these other kinds of

1488
00:55:02,834 --> 00:55:04,606
you know, behaviors and expressions

1489
00:55:05,298 --> 00:55:05,798
that

1490
00:55:06,251 --> 00:55:08,103
we could sort of exclude

1491
00:55:08,875 --> 00:55:11,282
from this, you know, more focused,

1492
00:55:12,464 --> 00:55:12,964
category

1493
00:55:13,415 --> 00:55:15,951
of acts that we call speech. And and,

1494
00:55:16,109 --> 00:55:18,090
like, again, I don't I don't quite have

1495
00:55:18,090 --> 00:55:20,172
the answer to that on On balance, though,

1496
00:55:20,412 --> 00:55:22,647
I'm always going to air on the side

1497
00:55:22,647 --> 00:55:24,323
of more rather than less.

1498
00:55:25,840 --> 00:55:28,647
Not... But but not only because it's it's

1499
00:55:28,647 --> 00:55:31,108
politically good. Not only for these, like, sort

1500
00:55:31,108 --> 00:55:32,402
of utilitarian

1501
00:55:33,888 --> 00:55:35,476
arguments, you know, like, you go back to

1502
00:55:35,555 --> 00:55:37,223
John Stuart mill or whoever, and you say,

1503
00:55:37,302 --> 00:55:39,305
like, Okay. Because we want truth to win

1504
00:55:39,305 --> 00:55:40,578
out and the only way for truth to

1505
00:55:40,578 --> 00:55:42,487
win out is by the sort of competing

1506
00:55:42,487 --> 00:55:43,942
ideas and we have to let people

1507
00:55:44,396 --> 00:55:46,241
sort of... Try out all sorts of bad

1508
00:55:46,241 --> 00:55:47,594
ideas in order to get to the good

1509
00:55:47,594 --> 00:55:49,663
ideas. I believe that's true, but that isn't

1510
00:55:49,663 --> 00:55:51,732
the only reason. I think free speech,

1511
00:55:52,625 --> 00:55:54,144
as I understand it, as I sort of

1512
00:55:54,144 --> 00:55:55,824
grew up with it, is good for the

1513
00:55:55,824 --> 00:55:58,704
soul. Okay? It's good in its in its

1514
00:55:58,704 --> 00:56:00,864
own right. In and of itself, it is

1515
00:56:00,864 --> 00:56:01,925
good and

1516
00:56:02,878 --> 00:56:04,637
for us to have... And and I maybe

1517
00:56:04,717 --> 00:56:06,315
I'm... I'm saying this sort of selfish, you

1518
00:56:06,315 --> 00:56:08,313
know, I'm sort of book ish inter a

1519
00:56:08,313 --> 00:56:09,932
intellectually curious person and

1520
00:56:11,844 --> 00:56:14,659
as someone who's a writer or operates it

1521
00:56:14,797 --> 00:56:15,915
sort of in the life of the mind,

1522
00:56:16,155 --> 00:56:18,789
I just think we need to allow ourselves

1523
00:56:18,789 --> 00:56:21,239
to freedom to think about and express

1524
00:56:21,675 --> 00:56:23,341
all sorts of different ideas,

1525
00:56:23,975 --> 00:56:27,385
test out that expression against other competing ideas,

1526
00:56:29,304 --> 00:56:30,994
and go from there and

1527
00:56:31,764 --> 00:56:33,057
where it becomes un,

1528
00:56:33,907 --> 00:56:37,019
sure, I suppose there's some negotiation, but know,

1529
00:56:37,099 --> 00:56:38,855
if we look around, like, I look at

1530
00:56:38,855 --> 00:56:39,914
this kind of

1531
00:56:40,291 --> 00:56:42,846
disinformation regime that we're seeing sprout up. You

1532
00:56:42,846 --> 00:56:44,921
see all these programs like it. Harvard has

1533
00:56:44,921 --> 00:56:47,413
1. And, know, all these tools now. Stanford...

1534
00:56:47,572 --> 00:56:50,210
They all have these, like, misinformation, misinformation programs,

1535
00:56:51,248 --> 00:56:53,326
to really just designs as, like silence people

1536
00:56:53,326 --> 00:56:55,918
on the right. Okay? Hard to really see

1537
00:56:56,136 --> 00:56:59,030
much daylight between what they're doing and calling

1538
00:56:59,408 --> 00:57:01,563
misinformation and just right wing billion. Okay? Right?

1539
00:57:01,882 --> 00:57:04,474
And so it's that's that's

1540
00:57:04,775 --> 00:57:06,295
scary to me. Okay? That's the kind of

1541
00:57:06,295 --> 00:57:08,454
thing that's like scary. But it it... But

1542
00:57:08,454 --> 00:57:09,655
on the other hand, it tells you.

1543
00:57:10,869 --> 00:57:12,467
We are a threat to them.

1544
00:57:13,346 --> 00:57:15,503
Totally, I think they're only doing it precisely

1545
00:57:15,503 --> 00:57:17,262
because there's a crisis on their side. They

1546
00:57:17,262 --> 00:57:19,194
know they can't win on the merits. They

1547
00:57:19,194 --> 00:57:20,552
don't... They've could sort of run out of

1548
00:57:20,552 --> 00:57:21,052
arguments,

1549
00:57:21,431 --> 00:57:23,669
and the response then is to silence whatever

1550
00:57:23,669 --> 00:57:24,148
we're saying.

1551
00:57:25,507 --> 00:57:27,505
And so I understand why they're doing it.

1552
00:57:27,758 --> 00:57:30,085
I don't wanna live within a sort of

1553
00:57:30,300 --> 00:57:30,776
constitutional,

1554
00:57:31,491 --> 00:57:33,159
legal regime, a, a sort of,

1555
00:57:34,112 --> 00:57:37,130
legal structure that would allow them to... But

1556
00:57:37,304 --> 00:57:39,775
Sort of implement the maximal version of this

1557
00:57:39,775 --> 00:57:42,565
sort of disinformation regime and and go to

1558
00:57:42,565 --> 00:57:44,956
social media companies and sort of make demands,

1559
00:57:45,449 --> 00:57:46,986
that for example, you can't challenge

1560
00:57:47,762 --> 00:57:48,240
the

1561
00:57:49,437 --> 00:57:51,750
efficacy of the vaccination. Okay, or whatever.

1562
00:57:52,468 --> 00:57:54,302
Pick your pick your topic of choice Or

1563
00:57:54,302 --> 00:57:54,940
for that matter,

1564
00:57:55,514 --> 00:57:57,187
challenge the idea that the earth is round.

1565
00:57:57,505 --> 00:57:59,498
Okay? I want flat earth to be able

1566
00:57:59,498 --> 00:58:01,490
to go online and, like, make their argument

1567
00:58:01,490 --> 00:58:03,498
for why the earth is flat. For why

1568
00:58:03,498 --> 00:58:05,811
09:11 was an inside job. And the same

1569
00:58:05,811 --> 00:58:09,240
thing with Holocaust mile. Yes. Absolutely 100 percent.

1570
00:58:09,480 --> 00:58:11,872
Okay? Make the argument. Fine. Okay? We're not

1571
00:58:11,872 --> 00:58:14,382
gonna, like, the the idea that some

1572
00:58:15,159 --> 00:58:17,871
catastrophe is gonna be us by allowing these

1573
00:58:17,871 --> 00:58:19,946
ideas to sort of per and proliferate. I

1574
00:58:19,946 --> 00:58:20,606
think is

1575
00:58:21,239 --> 00:58:22,437
incredibly sort of hysterical.

1576
00:58:23,236 --> 00:58:25,393
It's... There's just no evidence to backup up

1577
00:58:25,393 --> 00:58:27,550
that that's the case. And by the way,

1578
00:58:28,204 --> 00:58:29,958
the truth is that we actually may learn

1579
00:58:29,958 --> 00:58:32,112
something from these people. Okay? Believe it or

1580
00:58:32,112 --> 00:58:33,229
not, we might,

1581
00:58:34,026 --> 00:58:35,861
I was having this discussion with Receive Con,

1582
00:58:36,020 --> 00:58:37,057
and we were talking about

1583
00:58:39,614 --> 00:58:41,911
creation is. And the fact that actually creation

1584
00:58:41,911 --> 00:58:45,026
is, the the smartest ones have helped

1585
00:58:45,414 --> 00:58:45,914
biologists,

1586
00:58:46,613 --> 00:58:48,211
sort of understand better,

1587
00:58:48,771 --> 00:58:51,408
like bio, like where did life come from?

1588
00:58:51,728 --> 00:58:54,045
It's because they're asking really difficult questions. Like

1589
00:58:54,045 --> 00:58:56,214
they get to the ground core of, like,

1590
00:58:56,612 --> 00:58:59,164
what is the argument being made on the

1591
00:58:59,164 --> 00:59:01,635
side of official truth? And, yeah, the Holocaust

1592
00:59:01,635 --> 00:59:02,613
is very complicated,

1593
00:59:03,722 --> 00:59:05,711
it's very well documented, but it's it's a

1594
00:59:05,711 --> 00:59:07,938
complicated question. Okay? Like, we should be able

1595
00:59:07,938 --> 00:59:11,201
to have this conversation and tolerate people, we

1596
00:59:11,201 --> 00:59:13,204
even claim that There was no such thing.

1597
00:59:13,364 --> 00:59:15,352
There was no, like, program to murder jews.

1598
00:59:15,670 --> 00:59:18,318
Okay? So what if someone says that? It's

1599
00:59:18,375 --> 00:59:18,614
okay.

1600
00:59:19,822 --> 00:59:21,254
That's right. And and and, you know, it

1601
00:59:21,254 --> 00:59:23,085
also... That goes to matters of of of

1602
00:59:23,085 --> 00:59:23,585
faith

1603
00:59:24,358 --> 00:59:26,109
in the in and of themselves. Do you

1604
00:59:26,109 --> 00:59:27,621
know what them is? Do you know what

1605
00:59:27,621 --> 00:59:29,465
the muslims believe? Do you know what the

1606
00:59:29,545 --> 00:59:32,561
Jews believe? Yeah their muslims. Yeah. If that's

1607
00:59:32,561 --> 00:59:33,594
the religion. Yeah.

1608
00:59:34,387 --> 00:59:36,610
If you don't subscribe to that religion,

1609
00:59:37,960 --> 00:59:40,368
do The Jews think they're they're god's chosen

1610
00:59:40,368 --> 00:59:40,607
people...

1611
00:59:41,644 --> 00:59:43,160
Also you're Jewish and then and now you

1612
00:59:43,160 --> 00:59:44,676
feel bad about. I'm not you. I of.

1613
00:59:45,487 --> 00:59:46,598
What the hell you care with the you

1614
00:59:46,598 --> 00:59:48,025
believe? Yeah. Well what's... Why that a problem

1615
00:59:48,025 --> 00:59:48,264
for you?

1616
00:59:49,453 --> 00:59:50,326
We could go on.

1617
00:59:51,277 --> 00:59:52,071
It's been an hour.

1618
00:59:52,626 --> 00:59:53,126
So,

1619
00:59:54,470 --> 00:59:55,266
I think you and I

1620
00:59:57,098 --> 00:59:58,213
have a lot to talk about. And I

1621
00:59:58,213 --> 00:59:59,090
hope we get a chance to do it

1622
00:59:59,090 --> 01:00:01,081
again. Yeah. Oh, you there's 1 more question

1623
01:00:01,081 --> 01:00:02,570
though. You probably haven't ask them many time

1624
01:00:02,768 --> 01:00:04,382
how do you get from Jonathan Keeper

1625
01:00:04,837 --> 01:00:05,473
to Loma?

1626
01:00:06,268 --> 01:00:08,916
Okay. Loma is a character from Seinfeld.

1627
01:00:09,450 --> 01:00:12,362
As and he's 1 of Kramer off screen

1628
01:00:12,501 --> 01:00:12,980
friends,

1629
01:00:13,619 --> 01:00:14,738
and you never see him.

1630
01:00:15,457 --> 01:00:15,856
And

1631
01:00:16,735 --> 01:00:19,867
he's a... Very interesting weird character who has

1632
01:00:19,867 --> 01:00:22,024
a lot of idiosyncratic, sort of,

1633
01:00:22,983 --> 01:00:24,202
hobbies and

1634
01:00:24,580 --> 01:00:24,740
whatnot.

1635
01:00:25,795 --> 01:00:28,514
So, you know, being anonymous, like, not being

1636
01:00:28,514 --> 01:00:30,195
on screen. I thought Okay. No, I get,

1637
01:00:30,514 --> 01:00:32,355
in other words, he he fulfill certain.

1638
01:00:33,809 --> 01:00:35,089
Certain script needs.

1639
01:00:35,809 --> 01:00:38,130
Yes. That we're cra... We're something even weirder

1640
01:00:38,130 --> 01:00:40,769
than Kramer himself. That's right. Has to be

1641
01:00:40,769 --> 01:00:43,362
accountable for some... Okay. So Yeah Shame on

1642
01:00:43,817 --> 01:00:46,068
Orthodox jew actually, lo as... Always

1643
01:00:46,443 --> 01:00:46,943
fargo

1644
01:00:47,478 --> 01:00:48,535
typical name for.

1645
01:00:49,387 --> 01:00:49,887
Yeah

1646
01:00:51,058 --> 01:00:51,217
So.

1647
01:00:52,188 --> 01:00:53,863
Jonathan. Great talking to you. Thanks a lot,

1648
01:00:54,023 --> 01:00:56,974
guys. Thank you appreciate it. Okay. Have a

1649
01:00:56,974 --> 01:00:57,293
great day.

1650
01:00:58,170 --> 01:01:00,185
Hey. Thank you for listening to the Coleman

1651
01:01:00,244 --> 01:01:01,041
culmination podcast.

1652
01:01:01,854 --> 01:01:04,567
Don't forget to subscribe on Apple Podcasts or

1653
01:01:04,567 --> 01:01:06,961
your favorite podcast app. If you like the

1654
01:01:06,961 --> 01:01:08,797
show, please rated it 5 stars and leave

1655
01:01:08,797 --> 01:01:09,276
a review.

1656
01:01:10,007 --> 01:01:12,785
For more information. Please visit the show's website

1657
01:01:12,785 --> 01:01:16,594
at coleman dash nation dot com. It's coleman

1658
01:01:16,594 --> 01:01:18,023
hyphen nation dot com.

1659
01:01:18,673 --> 01:01:20,928
Or you can visit my blog at likelihood

1660
01:01:20,986 --> 01:01:22,342
of confusion dot com.

1661
01:01:23,139 --> 01:01:25,771
Join us next time. I'm a Coleman nation

1662
01:01:25,771 --> 01:01:27,605
podcast, and have a great day,