Hi. I'm Ron Coleman and a partner in
the Dylan law group. Social media legend, and
free speech ent.
When I started the culmination podcast in the
spring of 20 21,
its focus was on free expression and censorship
on the Internet.
Pod as important as that subject is to
me, which is very important. I felt hemmed
in in the podcast.
I wanted to spend more time talking to
the interesting people I've met in my legal
and free speech work.
Without feeling any need to have them all
make the same point.
So I culminated the first series of the
podcast and have started the second series.
I hope you'll enjoy these conversations
as much as I have recording it.
Hey, comb.
Good to see you again. I mean that
metaphorically, of course, although our guest today might
be able to explain
in drawing upon any number of his many
disciplines.
Why I might actually
be speaking beyond metaphor.
Mark S
is in fact
something of a visionary
himself.
He
is somebody that I've been on Twitter,
And I got to know a little bit
better when we we
did a an interview together with our friend,
Randall Ba, with our friend Randall Ba, who
who is also an unusual thinker.
As you can see, Mark,
1 of the things that I think is
holding Mark back for being appreciated is that
stupid ass drawing.
Because I... Whenever I look... Whenever I see
him on Twitter, I'll show you in a
second. It looks to me like, it doesn't
look to me like a person.
Well, right. It looks... But... So my wife
is an artist. She she has there's about
7 or 8 of those of me.
That she just she just does 15 minutes
at a coffee shop. And so she has
lots of kind. She has... She's an ours
with tons of work, but just, like, 6
or 7 of me. And so I just,
you know, it's it's... I actually I don't
use that 1 on on on... Oh, you...
Yeah. You're you... But you used to have
something. 1 of 1 from that series. And
I'll tell you whenever I looked at it,
I thought someone... It it's someone who's kind
of like doing a picture of himself as
a lion. Somehow, it looked to me, like,
a a lion picture. But I'm gonna go
back to the screen now because... I'm glad
that you
interject.
So this way, the the incredible tension of
waiting to introduce you has has has been,
released, but guys.
Mark is
of Iranian
extraction. There was father. He just explained to
me, which gives him certainly an interesting, and
I I watched his video
an interesting video about totalitarian,
and
Iran,
I just... That he posted a couple of
days ago, scientist, author entrepreneur guys.
There are a lot of people who claim
to be those kind of things.
He's for real. Okay. These are these are
his books.
He does brain stuff.
He
Let's
take another look at the guy. You know,
I was on Tim pool,
Monday night.
And he said, Ron, you know, he goes
around the table and ask people introduce themselves.
I don't like introducing myself. So I just
said come Ron Coleman.
Like, either you know me or don't, if
you don't know me
do a little work. I don't like asking
people to introduce themselves so I can avoid
it because it's an awkward thing, and you're
gonna under understand.
He
he he
drove practical purposes grew up in Virginia, to
green physics and mathematics. So we're talking about
a a lightweight here.
Phd in Math University of Maryland,
all kinds of stuff, of
fellowship at Cal tech and Theoretical neuro,
And let me tell you something. It's about
time someone got out of that practical neuro
biology stuff and started getting a little bit
theoretical, and I appreciate that.
Human
cognition,
journal articles,
publications like these kinds of things. I mean,
he... I used to have a porn mustache,
But listen, we all go through. We all
go through stuff. Mark, great to see you
again. What an incredible moment,
I only had that mustache for 1 particular
or party.
Only 1 particular film?
That's right.
No. You've funny. You asked me, you're in
you're in Florida. Right?
Yeah. Miami. Yeah. You are... I I think
I actually... You might have told me, but
I think I would recognize recognized that
that
cy behind you.
You
you you should be... Everyone should be listening
to your stuff instead of the... You know,
it's amazing to me
how all your interests are
painfully.
Coming
coming together. The the way social media has
affected the way
though many people look at the world and
the way events
are perceived and experienced,
and
social media per s is not is not
your
your focus, but
1 of the things I've always thought about
social media is it's the closest,
that we can actually come to be able
to to to read mines.
Because
people
none of the usual, none none of the
things that prevent us
from
saying just whatever is in our heads.
Work.
Hardly any of them,
nearly, but they they work a lot less
on social media than they work in real
life.
So
we're seeing this
this really weird soc physiological,
mass psychological,
experiment going on in real time, and it's
as it's affecting...
I'm... Do you think do you do you
think it's it's having a change on the
course of history because I think it is.
Well, I mean, I I think that 1
of the illnesses of social media is that
is that it...
Does, separate example, young, young kid 25 years
old interacting with you or me and real
life is going to, even independent of knowing
our resumes is gonna give us a certain
kind of difference because of the age difference
There's a certain kinds of things that happen,
and there will be emotional tone to the
conversation in such a way
that they will never act like they tend
to on Twitter,
at the emotional tones that that occurred on
Twitter are... Are completely missing these things that
they naturally instinctively do unless they have some
kind of emotional, kind of, d regulation. Right?
Now
you met, remember when a Facebook tried to
put these in for maybe 4 4 years
ago or 3 years ago, you can pick
from 8 different emotions instead of just like
or, you know, or re retreat or whatever
I'd like or like, and you can... Now
you can do it 6 or 7 different
emotions. There's this feeling like
social media
big tech folks know that there needs to
be greater
emotional
ability to emotionally signal to 1 another. And
so there's some attempts to do. But I
think some of the reasons why it doesn't
work as well as as it as it
should is because the the normal emotional channels
that we
naturally communicate with. And it's our main line.
My most recent focus is expressly human
decoding the language of emotion. And we only
have had in other books or my... About
are on the origins of language itself. Origins
of language a is a cultural invention. It
goes back,
relatively recent Lee, but what we evolved, the
the language that we evolved to speak is
emotional expressions. And so you have a world
now where our our,
totally connected world where we have an illness
in the way that we communicate with 1
another,
because it... It's not allowing us to fully
express. I mean, we can of course, still
pack in We choose our words to pack
in lots of emotional content.
We now have, you know, memes and gifs
that can really pack you know, the gist
that we do the animated gifs. If you
think about, they're all emotions. They really convey
better between memes, which are usually a very
emotional and gist, this is a really modern
way of trying to pack the emotional. So
over time, culture is sort of evolving, technologies
evolving better ways of packaging the kinds of
emotional signals that we do, which regulate these
kinds of power... And reputation differences.
But, I would imagine... But they're really a
sim a some chrome Right? I mean,
they're not... Differences the thing about emotions about
the the way
faces
and bodies,
express or convey emotion,
is
subliminal.
Yeah. To a large extent. I mean, if
if someone like me who's in the business
of
advocacy,
I will sometimes
simulate an emotion
in order to create an effect. But in
order for us to do that with,
Gifs or memes.
It's gotta go it it's gotta go through
here. It's like, IIII knew a young man
who was
super intellectual,
and super sensitive,
and he found himself a a lot like
I did
being friends
with
with nerds with with with with Wee.
And he didn't... And he knew that he
wasn't cool. And he wanted to be... He
wanted to have a normal life just to
just also to be appreciate being super intelligent.
Didn't wanna just hang around with Wee. He
could tell me where Wee.
So I always and that what I believe
I saw him doing was,
could... Was
from... He used... He
lacking the emotional ram of of a regular
normal guy. He took it from processing speed
and learned...
He he learned... What what what... Like, somebody
who is a
has to learn how to walk after
spine injury. He he he
intellectually figured out how to simulate being a
normal guy and completely
pulled it off even though he's
he's at heart. He's he's really nerdy.
Simulate That's what we're all doing. Like, we're
we're we're using it.
All those those all those nonverbal queues have
to be turned into something verbal or yes.
Now we... Because... Because
so much of social media is visual,
verbal or verbal adjacent, though. It it's still
too dimensional.
Because we're still going we're still we're still
going
through the screens.
Okay. So that...
You...
I interrupted you.
Well, well, so that leads... Me so I,
that the importance of this is there's a
couple ways to think about why it's so
important. It's important not just because that's the...
Channel by which we really communicate. But it's
also important because the reason that social networks
work is because they are reputation networks. It's
by virtue of the arguments
over time. And so if I make an
argument, and I make it very flat, I
say proposition p
could be true, but I'm not... Confident, but
I'm... I, I'm just putting this out. Hey,
let's have a conversation. It turns out false.
I'm probably not gonna lose any reputation over
because I didn't hype it up. Really But
instead, I say propositions p is p is
true. And do you know who I am.
You have any idea who I am. Right?
Now, it turns out I'm wrong.
I've shoved all of these chips pride because
of I've I've not only
said pee, probably it should pee, but I
pushed in all of this thing. I'm so
great. Like, I really am so confident. And
it turns out that I'm wrong by I
lose a lot of Chips If I instead
say,
Ron Coleman, you're wrong,
you completely have no freaking idea what you're
talking about. Right? Now if it turns out
I'm wrong too, I've also done a kind
of a disdain for you. So these kinds
of whether it's confidence about myself or disdain
for the opponent. I can easily become humiliated
depending upon, and... But I can also could
be, you know, turn out to win. If
it turns out that I've win. I've I've
bet a lot of reputation, either on your
you being an idiot or me being great.
I can also turn out to it. So
all of our... All what emotional expressions do
is the poker game that is constantly being
played in the network. We are able... And
if I'm being really humble, I say, look,
I don't know what I'm talking about. You
know, like, maybe I I realize you know
more than me and said look, actually, I
don't know on I'm That's not... I'm kinda
of pulling chips off the table and sort
backing down, saying, I don't do wanna bet
these after all. Something you can't do in
Bog, but you can do in realize. Right?
So we do all these things the entire
time. Well, don't should do that in poke
unfold.
Yeah. But you can't actually take your... That's
just a agreeing to the other guy saying,
I agree.
That you lose your month bigger than mine.
What, for that hand, for that hand, you
lost those chips, but you are in making
an investment,
in your overall reputation and how you how
you are reckon
as a better for future hands.
Definitely. Yeah. But there's a sense in which
the mathematics that governs
emotional expressions and the and the emotional expression
the language that all need is
is
2 full dimensions whereas Poker sort of only
1 half to dimension. I can I can
just bet that my hands stronger than yours
I can't un bet? I can't, like, Pull
off the table. And when I am betting
that minus stronger than years, I'm not really...
You can't tell and poker whether I'm saying
minus strong. Or whether I'm saying years this
week. You... So it turns out as it's
sort of a smaller dimensional space where it's
the full dimensions that we speak in emotional
expression terms is about fin conveying confidence or
lack of confidence in my
claim or or in your claims in these
various ways. And it's these conversations all of
the emotional content that we're Because we used
just see this proposition. Hey, I said this
proposition. You said this proposition. And then how
dare they put an emotional contents on and
on. Top. That's kind of ridiculous if they're
doing it. No. That's that's the point.
Statistics all outs outstanding proposition key, and not
only that, but it has significance that's less
than 0.05 or something like that this. But
the language that we humans speak to 1
another is conveyed and absorbed by virtue of
these emotional expressions, which convey you're perceived or
your your claim levels of confidence or un,
lack of confidence in it. And so it's
by virtue of making strong claims and being
strong then losing reputation war advice for or
the other way around. That over time, some
folks of the social network rise and reputation.
If it's functioning if it's functioning as a
should, so this... And It's not just about
making sure these emotional expressions are there so
that people can fully understand everybody's emotions and
we're all looking can tune with another. Right?
It's not about that. Mean, it is about
that. But unless you have the ability to
do those sorts of emotional expressions, then you
can't, properly... I side whether it... Was he
really saying it... How wrong was he saying?
And so that we can figure out how
how how much to, you know, knock him
for being wrong
And of course, there's other problems of social
networks too. We're designed for Social networks with
200 people maybe, 20 to 205 hundred maybe.
Now we have... That social number with millions
and hundreds of millions people,
we need to have mechanisms that allow us
to better keep track of the shit people
say, and that we can remember to knock
them, You know? And right So there's an
accountability problem.
Right. And there there's this paradox...
Of networking. I used to... I used to
lecture on networking.
Networks
there's an inherent power of a large network
compared to a smaller network but the larger
network gets the less relevant
membership in that network is to your assessment
of reputation. And and when I... Then that...
The the... I used to head a networking
group for Princeton,
Princeton Alumni,
who were
displaced by 09:11
in New york City.
And it... So I could really speak the
language
bikes... Or or but I can speak the
language that that that people understood in that
room.
If someone calls you up, in those days
or send you an email. I'm a princeton.
We were... Or even we were in the
same class.
I'm automatically inclined to listen
never met him before, but we have something
in common is something that we both
value.
Now you're going to include all Ivy league.
Okay. I mean,
which was how Facebook started out after all.
The bigger the network gets, you know, was...
Someone is a connection of connection of mine
on Linkedin or Facebook. It's it's fairly meaningless
because we're talking thousands and thousands of people.
And the...
The shared
affection, the shared emotional connection,
and the implied reputation and the accountability
are more and more and more it's attenuated.
Right. So... No. We do... Yeah. Go on.
No. I wanna hear... I I actually wanted
to hand it back to you. Yeah. So
even in real life, before the... Before social
networks, of, we have social networks that's that
that span all of society in some sense.
Of course. We It... There's a lot more
full connectivity now going on than there would
have been when it was just social connections.
But we would have had the public square
and the the town Public Square. And a
lot of folks there new 1 and another.
But there would often be representatives. You know,
like, hey, Doug is really into. He goes
to the, you know, to the capital and
interacts with all of the other representatives from
the other town squares, and he argues for
them. So he's also sort of a higher
reputation folks from our town square is interacting
with the bunch of other Doug and Susie
at the city, the big city. And amongst
others there's higher reputation ones, which may get
voted
into, you know, going into the... So there's...
The very the very representation system but that,
you know, nations tend to build our ways
of hierarchical
dealing with it so that at any given
time, the number of people in your social
network that you have to deal with is
hierarchical
kept small. And then, you know, the next
hierarchy keeps it small again. I mean, brains
deal with this kind of thing visual hire
you have all of these set sort of
hierarchy so that you can deal with these
kinds of connectivity sorts of issues. And I
I haven't... I don't know data for but
for this, but I would suspect that,
Twitter and all of these social networks end
up with it being incredibly messy. But they
end ended up with with, you know, a
lot of the high ranked people are disproportionately
connected to 1 another, of course, everybody connects
to them. But you end up with sort
of higher tiers of people let's say, 50000,
you know, 30 to 80000. There's a lot
of connectivity between them and then, and and
then you get to hundred and 50 is
another kind of tier smaller number, and there's
there's probably some of the similar kinds of
hierarchical irr structures mimicking what would have happened
then. And to the extent that happens and
organizers that way that keeps people's effective connectivity
being in the hundreds range of their people
that they really know and recognize at least
their profile images.
Even as you go up. So Elon might
have 2 or 300 people that he
realistically interacts with and ignores the other 9,
you know, 9 millions.
So
and and, of course, we... We're also... We're
being deprived
of
the visual cues. I mean,
you know, back when
there was
some rationale to
verification on Twitter.
Even though it was also
instantly abused for political reasons.
But
when you saw someone had a blue check,
that told you that
someone
Someone who is in charge of the network
or has a thought or who has authority
within the network.
Reckon
that person as high status
for some
mysterious reason.
Outside of that, you know, in in in
meat space, we we used to look at
how a person dressed and the kind of
shoes that you wore.
And the kind of or the kind of
cloak that he wore in in ancient times.
And and the accent that his Latin was
spoken with or whether his Greek was good.
All these different
sorts of things that now we they've all
been they've all been flattened out. Now, again,
that benefits guys like you and me to
some extent
because we're we're...
We're really intellectual and we're really verbal.
And
verbal is the number 1
thing.
On Twitter. And like you said, if you
can play the Poker game, it's it's it's
great that you use the example of
backing off
from... Because I just did that this morning.
III commented commend on on some self defense
question that was raised by a video somebody
shooting somebody else.
And I... Someone said something really kind of
out there. And I said that sounds kind
of out there, and then someone asked a
more pointed question. I said, I don't I
don't know... Listen, I don't know about that
stuff.
And it was a very conscious decision as
you say, I never quite thought of about
that way of pulling
ships off the table and sing,
I'm prepared to discuss this on a high
level, but but not at there's stuff that
I'm of detail wise, I'll take on any
1 of it, but not that, Alright. So
now we we see the social network phenomenon.
How is that
affecting in your view?
The way the world is spinning.
Yeah. I mean, so I... As... You know,
it
and for for Covid, you could... You know,
we... What we witnessed during Covid, and and
a lot of the reasons that folks to
the extent that anyone knows me outside of
my science stuff, that docs kind of the
science were red, Had some bit of following.
Another hope group of people have gotten to
know me through Covid, and I was 1
of the folks from the very beginning that
was arguing what the heck is going on.
None of this makes sense. These are masks
of liberties violations? There's no, cost benefit analysis.
This is of obviously a mass hysteria, from
the start. And
what of the only good thing about all
of that,
and it's not good, But the only good
thing about it is that
most of us have never experienced,
totalitarian
ourselves. These kinds of areas that lead to
totalitarian where I don't really... I don't mean
to and a lot of people don't really
understand what totalitarian is. And I think even
the definitions don't get it right. There's all
authoritarianism, which is some kind of government trying
to... I top down control the population. This
happens if there's a new coup in some
African country, and there's an authoritarian new government,
but you,
governments can't top down do much.
They're like the Dmv. They're disorganized. They don't
know what they're doing. It only typically is
dangerous when there's a significant. At least minority
of Stride and, righteous folks that are behind
it. And these usually some kind of cult
like thing when the person... The new They're
all the new dictator has been carried on
the backs of a significant part of populace.
That's when it's dangerous. And that's
in the sense that you're afraid that your
neighbors are gonna report to, your children might
report you. And these are the... This is
the first time
that I think most of the world experiences.
My family in Iran experiences. This is that's
a totalitarian state. You can't... If you walk
down with a little bit of your hair
showing as woman,
people on the street that don't work for
the government will attack you. Know, and there's
hundreds of videos just like the mask saying,
hey, Weren't aren't you wearing a mask same
stuff,
people in iran deal with this, their whole
lives. Right? That's a total totalitarian.
The, cultural revolution in China to totalitarian,
Germany. So all of these things that typically
happen in other countries, we say, well, Chinese
are, you know, far away Eastern culture,
Germans, they're strict. We come up with bullshit.
The total Western. And check. But we come
up with some wrap reason for why couldn't
happen here because they're a little strict and
we make life stereotypical joke about any Ryan's
or, you know, muslim country we gone, no.
It can happen to anybody and we saw
it spread in a in in a Covid
medical
a totalitarian
state, and, of course, it's weak. That what
we suffered
compared to the other examples is small, but
it happened worldwide. In terms of its wide
spread,
it happened
worldwide, everybody got to experience it.
And so and and I think it convince
people that this is a problem that's not
just for those
foreigners. Right? It can have to do any
of us. And I think that's...
That's the big moral for me of this
is how
to stop the these sorts of things because
a lot of the folks on the anti
lockdown side
have come to believe that it's all a
pandemic. This was all staged on purpose from
20 years of planning. And now if you...
If this is your your solution, you're not
going to address the problem and the problem
is that people wanted in this. People, you
can remove the Show and you can remove
bill gates and klaus schwab problem there's just
another ones... Other ones are gonna pop in
a place because people want it. Okay. This
is... I'm really glad you said this it's
because my my next question to you was
going to be. I guess, it still is.
When we think of totalitarian,
we think of
the
as think of it as a phenomenon that
serves the 1 or or handful of once
at the top
and that
as you... In the thought... It it basically
being authoritarianism plus
Mao wants this Stalin wants this Hitler wants
us.
You're saying the...
It's a the totalitarian is,
decentralized the retiring. So what I would say
It's decentralized
distributed
just like blockchain all this kind of world
of understanding decent and and... This it... That's
really what it is. It's it's authoritarianism that's
gotten decentralized across the population, and it's everywhere
it's all around. So so it's not merely
the case, which I might have thought that
people stop you
in Iran if you're a woman showing hair
because there afraid that if they don't... As
a as with the case certainly in the
Soviet Union. If you don't denounce
a
a trans,
you may be on the list of people
who
observe the trans transaction and did not assist.
Therefore, your fear,
is of is of big brother. But what
we saw
and what you're saying actually shed light on
these other
what we think of as big brother phenomena.
What we saw during Covid was, the people
in the 07:11
who are yelling at you for not wearing
a mask or for letting your nose poke
out of your mask. They weren't afraid of
that. They weren't afraid that they were gonna
get in trouble for not stopping you, wearing
it was an absolutely
sincere totalitarian
impulse on their parts.
Right. There. Right. And that's what I I
think I think I I had some vague
impression about this, but I think I think
if you had asked me 10 years ago,
I might have said, yeah. You got these
authoritarian and, you know, dictators, they set up...
The wise, you know, Kgb or whatever. And
then they set up incentives to make sure
the pot is was afraid, and and it's
all top down and
no... That's not how any of this works
If it works because
there's a 10 percent to 60 percent of
the population, which believes with all of their
heart that the states and the the thing
that they're part of is for the righteous
good, and that the others are uncle clean
and dangerous to society,
and you were video from, earlier this week
or maybe I guess it was the end
of last week, you make the point that
there's the there's great paradox in totalitarian
which is that it's victims
are
it's supporters.
Was was that the point? I mean, or
or the well I mean, I say that
the victims of totalitarian.
Are often
that is... The the people that
and so let's just give it a some
some meat in the case of, of, Gaza,
Right? So as in Iranian, Iranians,
almost every... Of each of us Orion, and,
of course, there's counter examples because even in
Iran, 20 percent maybe to 30 percent of
Orion really... Still support these lawn public. The
mall is, but mostly Iranians do not. Mostly
Iranians
identify with Go sake And and so the
idea that these Western Pro Palestinian folks are
being pro... Is islam prop public and Pro
Hamas blows our mind. Like, no. The average
ga and
in spite of all these poles you think
that you're hearing, you can't trust poles
in a totalitarian state, no 1 is going
to sit down and take an anonymous, supposedly
anonymous poll
First of all, they show up to your
house. That means your neighbors are seeing some
Ap or whatever show to your house and
walk in. They know that something's weird. You're
gonna make sure that all of your answers
first all, you're gonna avoid ever, letting them
even get near your house We're gonna pretend
not to be home. I gotta go. Because
you don't wanna ever be accused of that.
Your life is on the line. None of
these polls
are can possibly
be be trusted. Now, of course, there's way
too many gaza that probably support home hamas.
I'm not saying that there's not... But it
could be 40 percent, it could be 70
percent, but there's massive compounds in these supposed
and polls.
They didn't have... You know, that they elected
Ham hamas. No They didn't elect hamas, I'm
us,
was it were people able to to run
against them without worrying that their family would
be killed, and the obvious answer goes no.
As soon as they were elected, they they
they... Heard the opposition. Nobody was free to
run a, against someone on off, let's say,
a freedom or a piece or Anti Islamist
platform. Right? There is no freedom and they
haven't had even a fake election sets. So
you have... But yet, the supposedly pro ga
western,
are
pro Hamas, which is exactly the main of
Gaza. Right? And their Pro Ir, which is
the main pressure of another mass some group
of muslims the Iranians.
So you end up with the oppressed people
in these Muslim
dictatorship. And the supposed
backers of them They're walking around saying, yeah,
We support you. You're like, no You're supporting
our dictatorship. You know, in both cases.
So and, of course, so the pro palestinian
ones are are supporting the very dictatorship that
are depress them. And then the enemy in
this case, denied, you know, let's say, Israel.
A lot of this written. The Idea gets
it. III can believe the idea of they're
dealing with civilians on the ground and gaza
all the time. They really do wanna bring
in a food. They're they they... They're close
enough to the ground that they're not able
to imagine that the average Ga
is the same as Hamas. There's differences. You
know I mean Mean there's a lot of
ga that are hamas. I'm not saying there
are. But they get it if there's lots
of people that just say this sucks for
us. Right, because we're being... But
but some israelis, Just by as simpler to
say, it's a lot simpler. We just lump
them all in as 1 thing. So I'm
often, I'm already look, Ga don't equal hamas,
just like Orion zone equal...
The Ir,
and people on both ends are saying, no.
That's not true and they all wanna argue
they're the exact sense, which is exactly the
nightmare for the oppressed the patel. And state.
Nobody's on their side. And social media making
this
worse, I would think that it is. Alright
I would... IIII think that That it has
to be or... I mean, there's probably many
dimensions some in which it's making it worse
certainly the most obvious is that and going
back to the Covid was the degree to
which it spread. So there's 2 things that
we learn in at Covid is not just
those weird cultural people you know, we come
up with some post hoc dip,
but it's also... You it used to spread
to the edges of its boundaries and maybe
spill over and mess up some neighboring countries
a little bit.
But now it just spreads worldwide. So this
is the first time we saw something like
this immediately spread in in a week. Well,
I'm not just instantaneously. Just happened... All over
the world all at once with all of
these, you know, immediate spikes of excess deaths
in March, all over the world,
A virus doesn't simultaneously.
Hit disparate parts in the world all at
once. Right? Was mass hysteria,
a self induced deaths.
But...
So what's the role...
I mean, we we said that totalitarian is
sort of a...
A democrat
of
ideological
extremism,
what happens to elites in that? Because as
I'm asking the question, I'm wondering if
the reaction of the elites to this
phenomenon, which was so
awful,
and the doubling down.
Sounds as if there it was an attempt
to
assert
a leadership role where, in fact, no there
there was really a an sort of organic
hysteria
phenomenon going on. So elites
unable to. In other words, I I always
thought, and I don't
I can't
I can't back this up.
But that there was in the in the
in the brain of Donald Trump.
In 20 early 20 20, a small still
voice saying,
this this sounds a little... This sounds a
little crazy, but
we gotta, you know, all the scientists are
telling me this, and I I've gotta look
like I'm in charge.
Yep And the down the line, everyone is
saying, look, this
this is where everything's going,
we need to look like we're...
Like we're taking people there in order to
retain that reputation power,
that means
everything to to people, you know, in in
in those in those categories. So you have
fauci. Let's forget about his own personal
interest and financial interest. But all these people,
all these governors and all these heads of
state,
buying in, you know, just disregard
all normal protocols
of how decisions are made just as you
know, as you were describing before.
Yeah. And and I I... It's easy to...
So potentially say that they're consciously thinking through
that in order to maintain my reputation, I
have to... No. It's not like... That's not.
No. That... That's Yeah. That's just not not
a people operate. But but but we... I
think of the medical profession in particular.
And, know, when I was in law school,
the the the medical school and the law
school at Northwestern were
there I managed to mention both of my
fancy schools as I mentioned yours,
we're we're we're
together in Chicago.
The rest of the campus was in Evans,
And we had... We in the law school
had a nicer newer library than the medical
school. And the medical stu school students was
sometimes times come in and and study our
place and there was all this...
You know, we would tease them
because
they were taking up our spaces, but
they were definitely a different sort of
person.
And they tended... You know, and what I
learned about a medicine
is that doctors don't tend to be necessarily
courageous people. They tend, you know, they
they're very good at at learning really important
stuff, but the medical profession
so profoundly
failed,
but not not only at the
institutional level, you know, all the
elite
members, but
how many doctor's officers can do you still
go into where they're requiring masks in 2024.
It's only beginning to fall off.
Yeah. Well, that's a good question. So you
mean, doctors are not the the goal of
a doctor.
Is not to,
constantly challenge the status quo in the in
that sort of a in the standard practice,
whereas in some sense,
lawyers...
You know, there's the stat. There's there's... They're
constantly about questioning and and and looking for
angles and looking for space. Mean right When
the want to accommodate themselves do very well
in both professions.
But,
I But did lawyers, is there a higher
rate of lawyers that solved through this. I
suspect there's not... You know? No. I don't
think so at all. I don't have so...
No No. I thought it which I think.
What happens is the higher
the the the the
too speculative. Way too speculative.
But
now
what... What... What's the result in
4 years out,
do we at least have...
Have we
can we... Have we learned anything that we
can put to use from what happened and
and what would that look like?
Yeah. I mean, this is this is things
that I I I've certainly
thought a lot about. IIII
don't claim to have big answers yet, but
they're certainly some of the the the main
and simplest things are, that civil liberties,
in know, really, every generation needs to be
re taught, the purpose so liberties. Sub liberties
are there for
the dangerous emergencies the perceived emergencies. So that's
the only reason that we have them.
Just like, a, a free expression is for
your most hated enemies. That's the whole point.
There's no reason to even talk about free
expression. If we're only talking about people who's
voices
you like to hear there we... We wouldn't
need a a principle for that because we
all online. It's only when we have,
perceived dangers, and we feel like the world
is being heard by our, you know, enemies
that we wanna suddenly stop them or or
or halt their, their their liberties So
I've done, you know, probably 25, 30,
in know, many dozens of of of science
was trying to come at civil liberties from
very different kinds of angles
to
to try to drive at home in ways
that people aren't typically thinking about, as well
as a hundred episodes in in a on
on, on free expression. So I think really,
this is something that's it's
it's very intuitive to people that civil liberties
are something that has to be balanced.
And so as soon as you have the
notion that they're not d
constraints that is firm constraints, But are instead,
something that has to be balanced amongst the
many other utilities,
And then suddenly,
well, there's always something that needs to be
done. There's always starving people. There's always someone
being attacked. There's always some danger.
Right? In which case, civil Liberties are always
at stake because they're just 1 of the
things that you're balancing.
But
I don't That... That's sort of an academic,
you know, moral answer, but on a on
a more practical...
Level.
Is what kind of
maybe maybe that is the next thing you're
gonna say. The thing about you, Marcus that
you've always got something more to say because
you've you you've got a lot.
You've got a lot of windows o. Been
at the same time because you're drawing on
on a lot of different areas of of
of of of interest.
Well, I mean, another but another moral to
me about the United States for health other
countries,
was that we had federal, which is 1
of the few things that looks like it
came out
really in good standing.
Most of... When you get Stereo, most of
these these flood waters of these memes of
this new righteous communities, just floods right over
overall they suppose it's liberty protections. They just
just goes to go right over. But by
virtue of the natural statistical properties variability from
state to state and a little bit of
different cultural mil in each state.
We ended up with, you know, at first,
Florida was actually pretty authoritarian. A little bit
But by end of summer, beginning of late
20 20, it kinda turned around really quick,
and they got... It got its head and
order and and and so there was... There
were replaces in the United States you could
go. So I moved from Ohio
to to Miami after, you know, try this
move took us 22. 2 years before. We'd
get here. But you had places with 50
different states, you have enough variability that there
was some place to flee 2 Now you
also have places that federal wasn't, like, in
Canada and Australia, but I think the numbers
of provinces and, you know, territories were... So
small.
That you prop... They... It just seemed that
they all ended up bouncing as 1,
and there there was really nowhere to run.
But so I think 1 of the few
things that came out really well was all
of these supposed protections and balances of power
in the United I'd States it's failed, but
federal.
At the end of the day, worked because
of, you know, laws of large numbers or
something like this. That, you know, it's just
sort of a mathematical. It was enough variability
that allowed some independent cultural evolution to occur
and,
that that was a real saber. A lot
of people would email me constantly from Just
like, they had nowhere to run. They felt
helpless.
So that's a so that's a plus on
social media. Right? Because
you could certainly...
I I think you can see that... Almost
the same thing happening if we
scroll back to the eighties, and there's no
social media,
but
the New York Times in the Washington pub...
Alright. I guess you can't really...
Just like any anytime travel
scenario.
If you go back to say, well, what
what would the elite media have done that
would have been any different? If if that's
all you had word gate capped media? Well,
first of all, the New York times in
the Washington post would not be as radically
left as they are now,
or radically
status as they are now because they have
been forced into that corner by social media.
I don't mean forced morally,
but commercially, they made a decision that that...
That's the only way they can survive is
is is with this highly curated,
you know, highly ideological readers leadership that's that's
gonna pay.
But you do have channels
available to you today
that you didn't net.
Discussions like this and your your videos and
the stuff that you put out.
I mean, well, I mean, first of all,
that's something else that the United States, I
think comes out smelling like a rose
with. The free expression stuff,
there were some really big failures there.
But most of us recognize them as failures.
I'll be super glad when the Supreme court
and the judiciary general recognize recognized them as
failures.
A lot of censorship
was
rationalize and justified.
By this supposed emergency, which was opposed to,
as you would say.
We're combining 2 things. Right? Civil civil liberties
are supposed to be because of emergency. And
free speech is supposed to be because of
of, speech you don't wanna hear. The challenge
here was
the Civil liberty of free speech
in an emergency.
And because of this weird police
powers
loophole,
in the unwritten
constitution.
The judiciary
mostly
mostly blew it
But I think culturally,
most people who are serious thinkers
and were... Or with the discussion and persuasion
on this recognize recognized
some really
really mistaken stuff happened
in this process in terms of
censorship.
My hope that you're right. I... My own
impression from
from the left,
is not that that that what they... They
so far don't believe that made any mistakes
in this regard. I don't think they're not
serious sneakers I mean I mean, they have
abandoned... The their mass
hysteria has not ended. They've Yeah.
You know, Mark, believe it or not.
It's it's been it's been 3 quarters been
hour.
Exactly what happened with... With with Randy,
is is, you know, we
we can do this all day.
You have... You you
make a... You're not in an academic post
now. Right?
That's right. You're right. You you you run
your company or you ran? You sold it.
Once
No, I, I have a company v optics.
Would I I still run sort of vein
finer glasses, colored Mine glass coming out of
my discovery that we... Why we evolved. It's
an excellent to see blood under of the
skin to see emotions enough. And then I
we... I have a sort of a
incubator. So we're... There's other companies that are
coming out and
I'll let you know more about it. And
as well as another, you know, another couple
books in the works.
You are...
It was
my experience has been that the vast majority
of people
who use the word poly math on their
own websites.
Can pull it off.
Everything... Everything I've seen and heard from you
suggest to me that that that you can,
and
you know,
I really hate having to acknowledge
when someone is smarter than I am,
but,
no.
Just just different. Instead of instead of studying
1 vertical, I happen have, you know, just
sort of went horizontally. But, yeah. I appreciate.
The fact is it it you you you
you got a lot.
You you're thinking big picture in in a
way that in in a in a poly
mathematical kind of way.
And you have to because
so much... The
what's fascinating is that the
approaches like yours and I... And
I mean, the multiple approaches of yours.
And
the... Being...
Have it taken a theoretical
approach... To the things that are going on
in the world
and
them to and and linking them to
physiological and neurological and psychological
phenomena
is really the only way to truly understand
it. And and there are only handful of
people who could even try to do so.
And Mark, I thank you very much for
your continued efforts in doing that. And sharing
it and for culminating with me today.
Pleasure to me. Catch you later.
Hey, thank you for listening to the Coleman
culmination podcast.
Don't forget to subscribe on Apple podcasts or
your favorite podcast app. If you like the
show, please rated it 5 stars and leave
a review. For more information, please visit the
show's website at coleman dash
nation dot com. That's coleman hyphen nation dot
com or you can visit my blog at
likelihood of confusion dot com.
Join us next time on a Coleman nation
podcast and have a great day.