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Hi. I'm Ron Coleman and a partner in

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the Dylan law group. Social media legend, and

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free speech ent.

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When I started the culmination podcast in the

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spring of 20 21,

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its focus was on free expression and censorship

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on the Internet.

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Pod as important as that subject is to

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me, which is very important. I felt hemmed

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in in the podcast.

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I wanted to spend more time talking to

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the interesting people I've met in my legal

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and free speech work.

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Without feeling any need to have them all

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make the same point.

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So I culminated the first series of the

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podcast and have started the second series.

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I hope you'll enjoy these conversations

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as much as I have recording it.

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Hey, comb.

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Good to see you again. I mean that

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metaphorically, of course, although our guest today might

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be able to explain

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in drawing upon any number of his many

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disciplines.

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Why I might actually

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be speaking beyond metaphor.

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Mark S

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is in fact

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something of a visionary

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himself.

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He

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is somebody that I've been on Twitter,

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And I got to know a little bit

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better when we we

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did a an interview together with our friend,

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Randall Ba, with our friend Randall Ba, who

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who is also an unusual thinker.

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As you can see, Mark,

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1 of the things that I think is

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holding Mark back for being appreciated is that

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stupid ass drawing.

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Because I... Whenever I look... Whenever I see

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him on Twitter, I'll show you in a

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second. It looks to me like, it doesn't

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look to me like a person.

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Well, right. It looks... But... So my wife

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is an artist. She she has there's about

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7 or 8 of those of me.

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That she just she just does 15 minutes

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at a coffee shop. And so she has

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lots of kind. She has... She's an ours

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with tons of work, but just, like, 6

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or 7 of me. And so I just,

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you know, it's it's... I actually I don't

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use that 1 on on on... Oh, you...

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Yeah. You're you... But you used to have

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something. 1 of 1 from that series. And

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I'll tell you whenever I looked at it,

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I thought someone... It it's someone who's kind

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of like doing a picture of himself as

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a lion. Somehow, it looked to me, like,

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a a lion picture. But I'm gonna go

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back to the screen now because... I'm glad

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that you

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interject.

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So this way, the the incredible tension of

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waiting to introduce you has has has been,

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released, but guys.

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Mark is

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of Iranian

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extraction. There was father. He just explained to

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me, which gives him certainly an interesting, and

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I I watched his video

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an interesting video about totalitarian,

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and

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Iran,

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I just... That he posted a couple of

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days ago, scientist, author entrepreneur guys.

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There are a lot of people who claim

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to be those kind of things.

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He's for real. Okay. These are these are

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his books.

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He does brain stuff.

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He

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Let's

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take another look at the guy. You know,

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I was on Tim pool,

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Monday night.

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And he said, Ron, you know, he goes

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around the table and ask people introduce themselves.

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I don't like introducing myself. So I just

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said come Ron Coleman.

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Like, either you know me or don't, if

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you don't know me

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do a little work. I don't like asking

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people to introduce themselves so I can avoid

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it because it's an awkward thing, and you're

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gonna under understand.

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He

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he he

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drove practical purposes grew up in Virginia, to

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green physics and mathematics. So we're talking about

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a a lightweight here.

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Phd in Math University of Maryland,

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all kinds of stuff, of

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fellowship at Cal tech and Theoretical neuro,

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And let me tell you something. It's about

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time someone got out of that practical neuro

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biology stuff and started getting a little bit

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theoretical, and I appreciate that.

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Human

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cognition,

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journal articles,

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publications like these kinds of things. I mean,

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he... I used to have a porn mustache,

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But listen, we all go through. We all

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go through stuff. Mark, great to see you

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again. What an incredible moment,

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I only had that mustache for 1 particular

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or party.

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Only 1 particular film?

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That's right.

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No. You've funny. You asked me, you're in

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you're in Florida. Right?

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Yeah. Miami. Yeah. You are... I I think

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I actually... You might have told me, but

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I think I would recognize recognized that

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that

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cy behind you.

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You

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you you should be... Everyone should be listening

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to your stuff instead of the... You know,

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it's amazing to me

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how all your interests are

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painfully.

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Coming

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coming together. The the way social media has

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affected the way

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though many people look at the world and

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the way events

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are perceived and experienced,

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and

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social media per s is not is not

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your

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your focus, but

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1 of the things I've always thought about

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social media is it's the closest,

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that we can actually come to be able

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to to to read mines.

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Because

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people

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none of the usual, none none of the

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things that prevent us

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from

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saying just whatever is in our heads.

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Work.

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Hardly any of them,

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nearly, but they they work a lot less

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on social media than they work in real

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life.

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So

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we're seeing this

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this really weird soc physiological,

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mass psychological,

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experiment going on in real time, and it's

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as it's affecting...

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I'm... Do you think do you do you

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think it's it's having a change on the

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course of history because I think it is.

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Well, I mean, I I think that 1

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of the illnesses of social media is that

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is that it...

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Does, separate example, young, young kid 25 years

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old interacting with you or me and real

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life is going to, even independent of knowing

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our resumes is gonna give us a certain

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kind of difference because of the age difference

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There's a certain kinds of things that happen,

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and there will be emotional tone to the

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conversation in such a way

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that they will never act like they tend

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to on Twitter,

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at the emotional tones that that occurred on

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Twitter are... Are completely missing these things that

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they naturally instinctively do unless they have some

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kind of emotional, kind of, d regulation. Right?

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Now

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you met, remember when a Facebook tried to

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put these in for maybe 4 4 years

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ago or 3 years ago, you can pick

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from 8 different emotions instead of just like

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or, you know, or re retreat or whatever

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I'd like or like, and you can... Now

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you can do it 6 or 7 different

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emotions. There's this feeling like

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social media

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big tech folks know that there needs to

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be greater

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emotional

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ability to emotionally signal to 1 another. And

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so there's some attempts to do. But I

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think some of the reasons why it doesn't

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work as well as as it as it

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should is because the the normal emotional channels

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that we

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naturally communicate with. And it's our main line.

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My most recent focus is expressly human

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decoding the language of emotion. And we only

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have had in other books or my... About

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are on the origins of language itself. Origins

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of language a is a cultural invention. It

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goes back,

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relatively recent Lee, but what we evolved, the

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the language that we evolved to speak is

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emotional expressions. And so you have a world

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now where our our,

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totally connected world where we have an illness

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in the way that we communicate with 1

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another,

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because it... It's not allowing us to fully

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express. I mean, we can of course, still

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pack in We choose our words to pack

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in lots of emotional content.

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We now have, you know, memes and gifs

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that can really pack you know, the gist

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that we do the animated gifs. If you

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think about, they're all emotions. They really convey

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better between memes, which are usually a very

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emotional and gist, this is a really modern

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way of trying to pack the emotional. So

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over time, culture is sort of evolving, technologies

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evolving better ways of packaging the kinds of

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emotional signals that we do, which regulate these

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kinds of power... And reputation differences.

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But, I would imagine... But they're really a

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sim a some chrome Right? I mean,

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they're not... Differences the thing about emotions about

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the the way

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faces

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and bodies,

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express or convey emotion,

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is

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subliminal.

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Yeah. To a large extent. I mean, if

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if someone like me who's in the business

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of

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advocacy,

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I will sometimes

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simulate an emotion

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in order to create an effect. But in

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order for us to do that with,

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Gifs or memes.

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It's gotta go it it's gotta go through

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here. It's like, IIII knew a young man

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who was

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super intellectual,

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and super sensitive,

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and he found himself a a lot like

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I did

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being friends

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with

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with nerds with with with with Wee.

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And he didn't... And he knew that he

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wasn't cool. And he wanted to be... He

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wanted to have a normal life just to

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just also to be appreciate being super intelligent.

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Didn't wanna just hang around with Wee. He

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could tell me where Wee.

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So I always and that what I believe

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I saw him doing was,

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could... Was

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from... He used... He

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lacking the emotional ram of of a regular

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normal guy. He took it from processing speed

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and learned...

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He he learned... What what what... Like, somebody

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who is a

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has to learn how to walk after

280
00:09:58,667 --> 00:10:01,157
spine injury. He he he

281
00:10:02,249 --> 00:10:04,967
intellectually figured out how to simulate being a

282
00:10:04,967 --> 00:10:06,420
normal guy and completely

283
00:10:07,270 --> 00:10:08,802
pulled it off even though he's

284
00:10:09,175 --> 00:10:11,080
he's at heart. He's he's really nerdy.

285
00:10:11,795 --> 00:10:14,287
Simulate That's what we're all doing. Like, we're

286
00:10:14,287 --> 00:10:14,926
we're we're using it.

287
00:10:15,725 --> 00:10:18,282
All those those all those nonverbal queues have

288
00:10:18,282 --> 00:10:20,440
to be turned into something verbal or yes.

289
00:10:20,853 --> 00:10:22,307
Now we... Because... Because

290
00:10:22,840 --> 00:10:24,192
so much of social media is visual,

291
00:10:25,543 --> 00:10:28,484
verbal or verbal adjacent, though. It it's still

292
00:10:28,484 --> 00:10:29,200
too dimensional.

293
00:10:30,645 --> 00:10:32,313
Because we're still going we're still we're still

294
00:10:32,313 --> 00:10:32,813
going

295
00:10:33,186 --> 00:10:33,901
through the screens.

296
00:10:35,012 --> 00:10:35,648
Okay. So that...

297
00:10:36,601 --> 00:10:37,101
You...

298
00:10:38,030 --> 00:10:38,745
I interrupted you.

299
00:10:40,271 --> 00:10:42,660
Well, well, so that leads... Me so I,

300
00:10:42,739 --> 00:10:44,252
that the importance of this is there's a

301
00:10:44,252 --> 00:10:45,606
couple ways to think about why it's so

302
00:10:45,606 --> 00:10:48,075
important. It's important not just because that's the...

303
00:10:48,328 --> 00:10:50,477
Channel by which we really communicate. But it's

304
00:10:50,477 --> 00:10:52,785
also important because the reason that social networks

305
00:10:52,785 --> 00:10:55,968
work is because they are reputation networks. It's

306
00:10:55,968 --> 00:10:57,423
by virtue of the arguments

307
00:10:58,688 --> 00:11:00,197
over time. And so if I make an

308
00:11:00,197 --> 00:11:02,104
argument, and I make it very flat, I

309
00:11:02,104 --> 00:11:03,637
say proposition p

310
00:11:04,726 --> 00:11:07,205
could be true, but I'm not... Confident, but

311
00:11:07,285 --> 00:11:08,795
I'm... I, I'm just putting this out. Hey,

312
00:11:08,875 --> 00:11:10,625
let's have a conversation. It turns out false.

313
00:11:10,863 --> 00:11:13,169
I'm probably not gonna lose any reputation over

314
00:11:13,169 --> 00:11:15,513
because I didn't hype it up. Really But

315
00:11:15,647 --> 00:11:17,550
instead, I say propositions p is p is

316
00:11:17,550 --> 00:11:18,739
true. And do you know who I am.

317
00:11:18,977 --> 00:11:21,038
You have any idea who I am. Right?

318
00:11:21,196 --> 00:11:22,148
Now, it turns out I'm wrong.

319
00:11:22,719 --> 00:11:25,667
I've shoved all of these chips pride because

320
00:11:25,667 --> 00:11:27,202
of I've I've not only

321
00:11:27,658 --> 00:11:29,252
said pee, probably it should pee, but I

322
00:11:29,252 --> 00:11:30,526
pushed in all of this thing. I'm so

323
00:11:30,526 --> 00:11:32,374
great. Like, I really am so confident. And

324
00:11:32,374 --> 00:11:33,492
it turns out that I'm wrong by I

325
00:11:33,492 --> 00:11:34,689
lose a lot of Chips If I instead

326
00:11:34,689 --> 00:11:34,849
say,

327
00:11:36,526 --> 00:11:37,883
Ron Coleman, you're wrong,

328
00:11:39,240 --> 00:11:41,316
you completely have no freaking idea what you're

329
00:11:41,316 --> 00:11:43,406
talking about. Right? Now if it turns out

330
00:11:43,486 --> 00:11:45,002
I'm wrong too, I've also done a kind

331
00:11:45,002 --> 00:11:46,917
of a disdain for you. So these kinds

332
00:11:46,917 --> 00:11:48,912
of whether it's confidence about myself or disdain

333
00:11:48,912 --> 00:11:51,501
for the opponent. I can easily become humiliated

334
00:11:51,720 --> 00:11:53,874
depending upon, and... But I can also could

335
00:11:53,874 --> 00:11:55,071
be, you know, turn out to win. If

336
00:11:55,071 --> 00:11:56,428
it turns out that I've win. I've I've

337
00:11:56,428 --> 00:11:58,833
bet a lot of reputation, either on your

338
00:11:58,833 --> 00:12:00,344
you being an idiot or me being great.

339
00:12:00,583 --> 00:12:02,332
I can also turn out to it. So

340
00:12:02,332 --> 00:12:04,638
all of our... All what emotional expressions do

341
00:12:04,638 --> 00:12:06,784
is the poker game that is constantly being

342
00:12:06,784 --> 00:12:09,195
played in the network. We are able... And

343
00:12:09,434 --> 00:12:10,794
if I'm being really humble, I say, look,

344
00:12:10,955 --> 00:12:12,634
I don't know what I'm talking about. You

345
00:12:12,634 --> 00:12:14,315
know, like, maybe I I realize you know

346
00:12:14,315 --> 00:12:15,355
more than me and said look, actually, I

347
00:12:15,355 --> 00:12:16,405
don't know on I'm That's not... I'm kinda

348
00:12:16,405 --> 00:12:18,153
of pulling chips off the table and sort

349
00:12:18,153 --> 00:12:19,981
backing down, saying, I don't do wanna bet

350
00:12:19,981 --> 00:12:21,491
these after all. Something you can't do in

351
00:12:21,571 --> 00:12:23,081
Bog, but you can do in realize. Right?

352
00:12:23,414 --> 00:12:25,093
So we do all these things the entire

353
00:12:25,093 --> 00:12:26,791
time. Well, don't should do that in poke

354
00:12:26,851 --> 00:12:27,091
unfold.

355
00:12:28,289 --> 00:12:30,447
Yeah. But you can't actually take your... That's

356
00:12:30,447 --> 00:12:31,726
just a agreeing to the other guy saying,

357
00:12:31,886 --> 00:12:32,445
I agree.

358
00:12:34,218 --> 00:12:35,736
That you lose your month bigger than mine.

359
00:12:35,976 --> 00:12:38,773
What, for that hand, for that hand, you

360
00:12:38,773 --> 00:12:40,451
lost those chips, but you are in making

361
00:12:40,451 --> 00:12:41,250
an investment,

362
00:12:42,221 --> 00:12:45,001
in your overall reputation and how you how

363
00:12:45,001 --> 00:12:45,977
you are reckon

364
00:12:47,463 --> 00:12:49,448
as a better for future hands.

365
00:12:50,099 --> 00:12:52,194
Definitely. Yeah. But there's a sense in which

366
00:12:52,253 --> 00:12:53,790
the mathematics that governs

367
00:12:54,167 --> 00:12:56,560
emotional expressions and the and the emotional expression

368
00:12:56,560 --> 00:12:59,293
the language that all need is

369
00:13:00,164 --> 00:13:00,484
is

370
00:13:01,203 --> 00:13:03,680
2 full dimensions whereas Poker sort of only

371
00:13:03,680 --> 00:13:05,517
1 half to dimension. I can I can

372
00:13:05,517 --> 00:13:07,615
just bet that my hands stronger than yours

373
00:13:07,929 --> 00:13:09,769
I can't un bet? I can't, like, Pull

374
00:13:09,769 --> 00:13:11,370
off the table. And when I am betting

375
00:13:11,370 --> 00:13:12,809
that minus stronger than years, I'm not really...

376
00:13:12,970 --> 00:13:14,570
You can't tell and poker whether I'm saying

377
00:13:14,570 --> 00:13:16,581
minus strong. Or whether I'm saying years this

378
00:13:16,581 --> 00:13:18,017
week. You... So it turns out as it's

379
00:13:18,017 --> 00:13:19,693
sort of a smaller dimensional space where it's

380
00:13:19,693 --> 00:13:22,086
the full dimensions that we speak in emotional

381
00:13:22,086 --> 00:13:24,977
expression terms is about fin conveying confidence or

382
00:13:24,977 --> 00:13:26,676
lack of confidence in my

383
00:13:27,375 --> 00:13:28,893
claim or or in your claims in these

384
00:13:28,893 --> 00:13:31,211
various ways. And it's these conversations all of

385
00:13:31,211 --> 00:13:33,383
the emotional content that we're Because we used

386
00:13:33,383 --> 00:13:35,540
just see this proposition. Hey, I said this

387
00:13:35,540 --> 00:13:37,537
proposition. You said this proposition. And then how

388
00:13:37,537 --> 00:13:39,375
dare they put an emotional contents on and

389
00:13:39,375 --> 00:13:40,910
on. Top. That's kind of ridiculous if they're

390
00:13:40,910 --> 00:13:42,110
doing it. No. That's that's the point.

391
00:13:42,990 --> 00:13:46,350
Statistics all outs outstanding proposition key, and not

392
00:13:46,350 --> 00:13:48,362
only that, but it has significance that's less

393
00:13:48,362 --> 00:13:49,799
than 0.05 or something like that this. But

394
00:13:49,799 --> 00:13:51,635
the language that we humans speak to 1

395
00:13:51,635 --> 00:13:54,429
another is conveyed and absorbed by virtue of

396
00:13:54,429 --> 00:13:57,713
these emotional expressions, which convey you're perceived or

397
00:13:57,713 --> 00:14:00,440
your your claim levels of confidence or un,

398
00:14:00,895 --> 00:14:03,521
lack of confidence in it. And so it's

399
00:14:03,521 --> 00:14:05,430
by virtue of making strong claims and being

400
00:14:05,430 --> 00:14:07,359
strong then losing reputation war advice for or

401
00:14:07,359 --> 00:14:09,831
the other way around. That over time, some

402
00:14:09,831 --> 00:14:11,745
folks of the social network rise and reputation.

403
00:14:11,985 --> 00:14:14,298
If it's functioning if it's functioning as a

404
00:14:14,298 --> 00:14:16,463
should, so this... And It's not just about

405
00:14:16,463 --> 00:14:19,008
making sure these emotional expressions are there so

406
00:14:19,008 --> 00:14:21,076
that people can fully understand everybody's emotions and

407
00:14:21,076 --> 00:14:22,746
we're all looking can tune with another. Right?

408
00:14:22,905 --> 00:14:24,747
It's not about that. Mean, it is about

409
00:14:24,747 --> 00:14:26,651
that. But unless you have the ability to

410
00:14:26,651 --> 00:14:29,745
do those sorts of emotional expressions, then you

411
00:14:29,745 --> 00:14:32,145
can't, properly... I side whether it... Was he

412
00:14:32,145 --> 00:14:34,138
really saying it... How wrong was he saying?

413
00:14:34,297 --> 00:14:35,652
And so that we can figure out how

414
00:14:35,652 --> 00:14:37,804
how how much to, you know, knock him

415
00:14:37,804 --> 00:14:38,782
for being wrong

416
00:14:39,173 --> 00:14:40,521
And of course, there's other problems of social

417
00:14:40,521 --> 00:14:42,503
networks too. We're designed for Social networks with

418
00:14:42,503 --> 00:14:45,595
200 people maybe, 20 to 205 hundred maybe.

419
00:14:45,991 --> 00:14:48,074
Now we have... That social number with millions

420
00:14:48,074 --> 00:14:49,110
and hundreds of millions people,

421
00:14:49,907 --> 00:14:52,854
we need to have mechanisms that allow us

422
00:14:52,854 --> 00:14:55,802
to better keep track of the shit people

423
00:14:55,802 --> 00:14:57,731
say, and that we can remember to knock

424
00:14:57,731 --> 00:14:59,566
them, You know? And right So there's an

425
00:14:59,566 --> 00:15:00,523
accountability problem.

426
00:15:01,162 --> 00:15:03,576
Right. And there there's this paradox...

427
00:15:03,969 --> 00:15:05,874
Of networking. I used to... I used to

428
00:15:05,874 --> 00:15:06,589
lecture on networking.

429
00:15:08,177 --> 00:15:08,677
Networks

430
00:15:09,209 --> 00:15:11,989
there's an inherent power of a large network

431
00:15:11,989 --> 00:15:14,154
compared to a smaller network but the larger

432
00:15:14,154 --> 00:15:16,254
network gets the less relevant

433
00:15:16,794 --> 00:15:19,914
membership in that network is to your assessment

434
00:15:19,914 --> 00:15:22,486
of reputation. And and when I... Then that...

435
00:15:22,646 --> 00:15:25,119
The the... I used to head a networking

436
00:15:25,119 --> 00:15:26,018
group for Princeton,

437
00:15:26,396 --> 00:15:27,194
Princeton Alumni,

438
00:15:27,832 --> 00:15:28,571
who were

439
00:15:29,605 --> 00:15:31,785
displaced by 09:11

440
00:15:31,924 --> 00:15:32,804
in New york City.

441
00:15:33,924 --> 00:15:36,004
And it... So I could really speak the

442
00:15:36,004 --> 00:15:36,504
language

443
00:15:38,016 --> 00:15:39,999
bikes... Or or but I can speak the

444
00:15:39,999 --> 00:15:42,618
language that that that people understood in that

445
00:15:42,618 --> 00:15:42,856
room.

446
00:15:44,522 --> 00:15:46,844
If someone calls you up, in those days

447
00:15:46,844 --> 00:15:48,602
or send you an email. I'm a princeton.

448
00:15:48,761 --> 00:15:49,800
We were... Or even we were in the

449
00:15:49,800 --> 00:15:50,280
same class.

450
00:15:50,919 --> 00:15:53,976
I'm automatically inclined to listen

451
00:15:55,008 --> 00:15:56,995
never met him before, but we have something

452
00:15:56,995 --> 00:15:58,767
in common is something that we both

453
00:15:59,300 --> 00:15:59,777
value.

454
00:16:01,844 --> 00:16:03,991
Now you're going to include all Ivy league.

455
00:16:04,642 --> 00:16:05,278
Okay. I mean,

456
00:16:06,550 --> 00:16:08,458
which was how Facebook started out after all.

457
00:16:09,651 --> 00:16:11,798
The bigger the network gets, you know, was...

458
00:16:12,529 --> 00:16:14,123
Someone is a connection of connection of mine

459
00:16:14,123 --> 00:16:16,776
on Linkedin or Facebook. It's it's fairly meaningless

460
00:16:16,994 --> 00:16:19,545
because we're talking thousands and thousands of people.

461
00:16:20,023 --> 00:16:20,422
And the...

462
00:16:21,394 --> 00:16:22,213
The shared

463
00:16:24,584 --> 00:16:26,418
affection, the shared emotional connection,

464
00:16:27,535 --> 00:16:30,667
and the implied reputation and the accountability

465
00:16:31,536 --> 00:16:33,546
are more and more and more it's attenuated.

466
00:16:34,555 --> 00:16:36,382
Right. So... No. We do... Yeah. Go on.

467
00:16:36,541 --> 00:16:38,368
No. I wanna hear... I I actually wanted

468
00:16:38,368 --> 00:16:40,132
to hand it back to you. Yeah. So

469
00:16:40,132 --> 00:16:42,042
even in real life, before the... Before social

470
00:16:42,042 --> 00:16:44,190
networks, of, we have social networks that's that

471
00:16:44,190 --> 00:16:46,418
that span all of society in some sense.

472
00:16:46,498 --> 00:16:48,604
Of course. We It... There's a lot more

473
00:16:48,741 --> 00:16:51,207
full connectivity now going on than there would

474
00:16:51,207 --> 00:16:53,038
have been when it was just social connections.

475
00:16:53,197 --> 00:16:54,550
But we would have had the public square

476
00:16:54,550 --> 00:16:56,714
and the the town Public Square. And a

477
00:16:56,714 --> 00:16:58,312
lot of folks there new 1 and another.

478
00:16:58,552 --> 00:17:00,390
But there would often be representatives. You know,

479
00:17:00,470 --> 00:17:02,148
like, hey, Doug is really into. He goes

480
00:17:02,148 --> 00:17:04,146
to the, you know, to the capital and

481
00:17:04,146 --> 00:17:06,398
interacts with all of the other representatives from

482
00:17:06,398 --> 00:17:08,314
the other town squares, and he argues for

483
00:17:08,314 --> 00:17:10,250
them. So he's also sort of a higher

484
00:17:10,309 --> 00:17:12,703
reputation folks from our town square is interacting

485
00:17:12,703 --> 00:17:14,974
with the bunch of other Doug and Susie

486
00:17:15,112 --> 00:17:17,026
at the city, the big city. And amongst

487
00:17:17,026 --> 00:17:19,100
others there's higher reputation ones, which may get

488
00:17:19,100 --> 00:17:19,600
voted

489
00:17:20,057 --> 00:17:21,573
into, you know, going into the... So there's...

490
00:17:21,812 --> 00:17:24,697
The very the very representation system but that,

491
00:17:24,856 --> 00:17:27,319
you know, nations tend to build our ways

492
00:17:27,319 --> 00:17:27,978
of hierarchical

493
00:17:28,353 --> 00:17:30,419
dealing with it so that at any given

494
00:17:30,419 --> 00:17:32,740
time, the number of people in your social

495
00:17:32,740 --> 00:17:34,012
network that you have to deal with is

496
00:17:34,012 --> 00:17:34,512
hierarchical

497
00:17:34,966 --> 00:17:37,272
kept small. And then, you know, the next

498
00:17:37,272 --> 00:17:39,499
hierarchy keeps it small again. I mean, brains

499
00:17:39,499 --> 00:17:40,930
deal with this kind of thing visual hire

500
00:17:40,930 --> 00:17:42,217
you have all of these set sort of

501
00:17:42,217 --> 00:17:43,885
hierarchy so that you can deal with these

502
00:17:43,885 --> 00:17:46,030
kinds of connectivity sorts of issues. And I

503
00:17:46,109 --> 00:17:48,357
I haven't... I don't know data for but

504
00:17:48,413 --> 00:17:50,343
for this, but I would suspect that,

505
00:17:50,891 --> 00:17:52,796
Twitter and all of these social networks end

506
00:17:52,796 --> 00:17:55,496
up with it being incredibly messy. But they

507
00:17:55,496 --> 00:17:56,687
end ended up with with, you know, a

508
00:17:56,687 --> 00:17:58,752
lot of the high ranked people are disproportionately

509
00:17:58,752 --> 00:18:00,758
connected to 1 another, of course, everybody connects

510
00:18:00,758 --> 00:18:02,756
to them. But you end up with sort

511
00:18:02,756 --> 00:18:04,754
of higher tiers of people let's say, 50000,

512
00:18:04,914 --> 00:18:06,672
you know, 30 to 80000. There's a lot

513
00:18:06,672 --> 00:18:08,924
of connectivity between them and then, and and

514
00:18:08,924 --> 00:18:10,280
then you get to hundred and 50 is

515
00:18:10,280 --> 00:18:12,513
another kind of tier smaller number, and there's

516
00:18:12,513 --> 00:18:14,347
there's probably some of the similar kinds of

517
00:18:14,347 --> 00:18:17,059
hierarchical irr structures mimicking what would have happened

518
00:18:17,059 --> 00:18:18,710
then. And to the extent that happens and

519
00:18:19,148 --> 00:18:22,578
organizers that way that keeps people's effective connectivity

520
00:18:22,578 --> 00:18:24,811
being in the hundreds range of their people

521
00:18:24,811 --> 00:18:26,646
that they really know and recognize at least

522
00:18:26,646 --> 00:18:27,603
their profile images.

523
00:18:28,894 --> 00:18:30,894
Even as you go up. So Elon might

524
00:18:30,894 --> 00:18:32,514
have 2 or 300 people that he

525
00:18:32,815 --> 00:18:35,615
realistically interacts with and ignores the other 9,

526
00:18:35,694 --> 00:18:36,575
you know, 9 millions.

527
00:18:38,509 --> 00:18:39,009
So

528
00:18:39,470 --> 00:18:41,950
and and, of course, we... We're also... We're

529
00:18:41,950 --> 00:18:43,009
being deprived

530
00:18:44,029 --> 00:18:44,529
of

531
00:18:44,990 --> 00:18:46,269
the visual cues. I mean,

532
00:18:47,318 --> 00:18:48,612
you know, back when

533
00:18:49,382 --> 00:18:50,200
there was

534
00:18:51,763 --> 00:18:53,295
some rationale to

535
00:18:53,907 --> 00:18:54,780
verification on Twitter.

536
00:18:56,545 --> 00:18:57,762
Even though it was also

537
00:18:58,377 --> 00:19:00,369
instantly abused for political reasons.

538
00:19:01,405 --> 00:19:01,905
But

539
00:19:03,172 --> 00:19:04,763
when you saw someone had a blue check,

540
00:19:05,718 --> 00:19:07,013
that told you that

541
00:19:08,502 --> 00:19:09,002
someone

542
00:19:11,065 --> 00:19:12,919
Someone who is in charge of the network

543
00:19:13,296 --> 00:19:15,766
or has a thought or who has authority

544
00:19:15,766 --> 00:19:16,483
within the network.

545
00:19:17,851 --> 00:19:18,351
Reckon

546
00:19:19,757 --> 00:19:21,686
that person as high status

547
00:19:22,775 --> 00:19:23,513
for some

548
00:19:24,363 --> 00:19:25,077
mysterious reason.

549
00:19:27,238 --> 00:19:29,153
Outside of that, you know, in in in

550
00:19:29,153 --> 00:19:30,828
meat space, we we used to look at

551
00:19:30,828 --> 00:19:32,584
how a person dressed and the kind of

552
00:19:32,584 --> 00:19:33,301
shoes that you wore.

553
00:19:35,541 --> 00:19:37,366
And the kind of or the kind of

554
00:19:37,366 --> 00:19:39,349
cloak that he wore in in ancient times.

555
00:19:40,142 --> 00:19:43,495
And and the accent that his Latin was

556
00:19:43,495 --> 00:19:45,727
spoken with or whether his Greek was good.

557
00:19:47,002 --> 00:19:47,901
All these different

558
00:19:48,517 --> 00:19:50,921
sorts of things that now we they've all

559
00:19:50,921 --> 00:19:53,142
been they've all been flattened out. Now, again,

560
00:19:53,300 --> 00:19:55,601
that benefits guys like you and me to

561
00:19:55,601 --> 00:19:56,497
some extent

562
00:19:56,949 --> 00:19:58,139
because we're we're...

563
00:19:58,947 --> 00:20:01,167
We're really intellectual and we're really verbal.

564
00:20:02,832 --> 00:20:03,332
And

565
00:20:03,783 --> 00:20:05,155
verbal is the number 1

566
00:20:05,686 --> 00:20:06,003
thing.

567
00:20:06,574 --> 00:20:08,168
On Twitter. And like you said, if you

568
00:20:08,168 --> 00:20:10,638
can play the Poker game, it's it's it's

569
00:20:10,638 --> 00:20:12,573
great that you use the example of

570
00:20:13,029 --> 00:20:14,007
backing off

571
00:20:14,717 --> 00:20:16,550
from... Because I just did that this morning.

572
00:20:17,028 --> 00:20:19,599
III commented commend on on some self defense

573
00:20:19,896 --> 00:20:21,967
question that was raised by a video somebody

574
00:20:21,967 --> 00:20:22,844
shooting somebody else.

575
00:20:24,134 --> 00:20:26,367
And I... Someone said something really kind of

576
00:20:26,367 --> 00:20:27,643
out there. And I said that sounds kind

577
00:20:27,643 --> 00:20:29,079
of out there, and then someone asked a

578
00:20:29,079 --> 00:20:31,471
more pointed question. I said, I don't I

579
00:20:31,471 --> 00:20:32,907
don't know... Listen, I don't know about that

580
00:20:32,907 --> 00:20:32,987
stuff.

581
00:20:33,960 --> 00:20:35,960
And it was a very conscious decision as

582
00:20:35,960 --> 00:20:37,559
you say, I never quite thought of about

583
00:20:37,559 --> 00:20:38,700
that way of pulling

584
00:20:39,000 --> 00:20:40,440
ships off the table and sing,

585
00:20:41,731 --> 00:20:43,482
I'm prepared to discuss this on a high

586
00:20:43,482 --> 00:20:46,425
level, but but not at there's stuff that

587
00:20:46,505 --> 00:20:48,891
I'm of detail wise, I'll take on any

588
00:20:48,891 --> 00:20:50,739
1 of it, but not that, Alright. So

589
00:20:50,739 --> 00:20:53,055
now we we see the social network phenomenon.

590
00:20:53,455 --> 00:20:54,354
How is that

591
00:20:54,973 --> 00:20:56,171
affecting in your view?

592
00:20:57,860 --> 00:20:59,289
The way the world is spinning.

593
00:21:00,638 --> 00:21:02,146
Yeah. I mean, so I... As... You know,

594
00:21:02,305 --> 00:21:02,805
it

595
00:21:03,178 --> 00:21:05,178
and for for Covid, you could... You know,

596
00:21:05,258 --> 00:21:06,850
we... What we witnessed during Covid, and and

597
00:21:06,850 --> 00:21:08,921
a lot of the reasons that folks to

598
00:21:08,921 --> 00:21:10,752
the extent that anyone knows me outside of

599
00:21:10,752 --> 00:21:12,344
my science stuff, that docs kind of the

600
00:21:12,344 --> 00:21:14,592
science were red, Had some bit of following.

601
00:21:15,071 --> 00:21:16,827
Another hope group of people have gotten to

602
00:21:16,827 --> 00:21:18,663
know me through Covid, and I was 1

603
00:21:18,663 --> 00:21:20,101
of the folks from the very beginning that

604
00:21:20,101 --> 00:21:21,378
was arguing what the heck is going on.

605
00:21:21,537 --> 00:21:22,950
None of this makes sense. These are masks

606
00:21:22,989 --> 00:21:25,926
of liberties violations? There's no, cost benefit analysis.

607
00:21:26,640 --> 00:21:29,419
This is of obviously a mass hysteria, from

608
00:21:29,419 --> 00:21:30,633
the start. And

609
00:21:31,244 --> 00:21:34,204
what of the only good thing about all

610
00:21:34,204 --> 00:21:34,602
of that,

611
00:21:35,398 --> 00:21:37,071
and it's not good, But the only good

612
00:21:37,071 --> 00:21:38,266
thing about it is that

613
00:21:38,903 --> 00:21:40,496
most of us have never experienced,

614
00:21:41,782 --> 00:21:42,282
totalitarian

615
00:21:42,894 --> 00:21:45,911
ourselves. These kinds of areas that lead to

616
00:21:45,911 --> 00:21:48,532
totalitarian where I don't really... I don't mean

617
00:21:48,532 --> 00:21:49,975
to and a lot of people don't really

618
00:21:49,975 --> 00:21:52,037
understand what totalitarian is. And I think even

619
00:21:52,037 --> 00:21:54,575
the definitions don't get it right. There's all

620
00:21:54,575 --> 00:21:56,638
authoritarianism, which is some kind of government trying

621
00:21:56,638 --> 00:21:59,049
to... I top down control the population. This

622
00:21:59,049 --> 00:22:00,570
happens if there's a new coup in some

623
00:22:00,730 --> 00:22:03,210
African country, and there's an authoritarian new government,

624
00:22:03,529 --> 00:22:04,144
but you,

625
00:22:04,662 --> 00:22:06,810
governments can't top down do much.

626
00:22:07,447 --> 00:22:09,675
They're like the Dmv. They're disorganized. They don't

627
00:22:09,675 --> 00:22:11,824
know what they're doing. It only typically is

628
00:22:11,824 --> 00:22:14,860
dangerous when there's a significant. At least minority

629
00:22:14,860 --> 00:22:17,956
of Stride and, righteous folks that are behind

630
00:22:17,956 --> 00:22:19,543
it. And these usually some kind of cult

631
00:22:19,543 --> 00:22:21,543
like thing when the person... The new They're

632
00:22:21,543 --> 00:22:23,930
all the new dictator has been carried on

633
00:22:23,930 --> 00:22:25,998
the backs of a significant part of populace.

634
00:22:26,635 --> 00:22:28,226
That's when it's dangerous. And that's

635
00:22:29,579 --> 00:22:31,750
in the sense that you're afraid that your

636
00:22:31,750 --> 00:22:34,230
neighbors are gonna report to, your children might

637
00:22:34,230 --> 00:22:36,230
report you. And these are the... This is

638
00:22:36,230 --> 00:22:36,950
the first time

639
00:22:37,349 --> 00:22:39,349
that I think most of the world experiences.

640
00:22:39,684 --> 00:22:41,445
My family in Iran experiences. This is that's

641
00:22:41,445 --> 00:22:43,525
a totalitarian state. You can't... If you walk

642
00:22:43,525 --> 00:22:44,565
down with a little bit of your hair

643
00:22:44,565 --> 00:22:45,205
showing as woman,

644
00:22:46,005 --> 00:22:47,445
people on the street that don't work for

645
00:22:47,445 --> 00:22:49,537
the government will attack you. Know, and there's

646
00:22:49,537 --> 00:22:51,212
hundreds of videos just like the mask saying,

647
00:22:51,372 --> 00:22:52,648
hey, Weren't aren't you wearing a mask same

648
00:22:52,648 --> 00:22:52,807
stuff,

649
00:22:53,605 --> 00:22:55,519
people in iran deal with this, their whole

650
00:22:55,519 --> 00:22:57,274
lives. Right? That's a total totalitarian.

651
00:22:59,441 --> 00:23:01,851
The, cultural revolution in China to totalitarian,

652
00:23:02,783 --> 00:23:05,011
Germany. So all of these things that typically

653
00:23:05,011 --> 00:23:06,842
happen in other countries, we say, well, Chinese

654
00:23:06,842 --> 00:23:09,323
are, you know, far away Eastern culture,

655
00:23:09,800 --> 00:23:11,709
Germans, they're strict. We come up with bullshit.

656
00:23:11,868 --> 00:23:13,856
The total Western. And check. But we come

657
00:23:13,856 --> 00:23:15,764
up with some wrap reason for why couldn't

658
00:23:15,764 --> 00:23:17,195
happen here because they're a little strict and

659
00:23:17,195 --> 00:23:19,521
we make life stereotypical joke about any Ryan's

660
00:23:19,521 --> 00:23:21,117
or, you know, muslim country we gone, no.

661
00:23:21,356 --> 00:23:22,872
It can happen to anybody and we saw

662
00:23:22,872 --> 00:23:24,808
it spread in a in in a Covid

663
00:23:25,026 --> 00:23:25,526
medical

664
00:23:26,872 --> 00:23:27,849
a totalitarian

665
00:23:28,223 --> 00:23:30,449
state, and, of course, it's weak. That what

666
00:23:30,449 --> 00:23:31,108
we suffered

667
00:23:31,721 --> 00:23:33,803
compared to the other examples is small, but

668
00:23:33,803 --> 00:23:36,368
it happened worldwide. In terms of its wide

669
00:23:36,584 --> 00:23:36,822
spread,

670
00:23:38,093 --> 00:23:38,752
it happened

671
00:23:39,285 --> 00:23:41,192
worldwide, everybody got to experience it.

672
00:23:42,478 --> 00:23:44,225
And so and and I think it convince

673
00:23:44,225 --> 00:23:45,972
people that this is a problem that's not

674
00:23:45,972 --> 00:23:47,107
just for those

675
00:23:47,560 --> 00:23:49,386
foreigners. Right? It can have to do any

676
00:23:49,386 --> 00:23:50,816
of us. And I think that's...

677
00:23:52,024 --> 00:23:54,099
That's the big moral for me of this

678
00:23:54,099 --> 00:23:54,759
is how

679
00:23:55,616 --> 00:23:57,532
to stop the these sorts of things because

680
00:23:57,532 --> 00:23:59,288
a lot of the folks on the anti

681
00:23:59,288 --> 00:24:00,267
lockdown side

682
00:24:01,058 --> 00:24:03,445
have come to believe that it's all a

683
00:24:03,445 --> 00:24:05,833
pandemic. This was all staged on purpose from

684
00:24:05,833 --> 00:24:07,902
20 years of planning. And now if you...

685
00:24:08,061 --> 00:24:09,653
If this is your your solution, you're not

686
00:24:09,653 --> 00:24:11,177
going to address the problem and the problem

687
00:24:11,177 --> 00:24:14,031
is that people wanted in this. People, you

688
00:24:14,031 --> 00:24:16,013
can remove the Show and you can remove

689
00:24:16,013 --> 00:24:18,648
bill gates and klaus schwab problem there's just

690
00:24:18,648 --> 00:24:19,924
another ones... Other ones are gonna pop in

691
00:24:19,924 --> 00:24:22,077
a place because people want it. Okay. This

692
00:24:22,077 --> 00:24:23,593
is... I'm really glad you said this it's

693
00:24:23,593 --> 00:24:25,906
because my my next question to you was

694
00:24:25,906 --> 00:24:27,501
going to be. I guess, it still is.

695
00:24:29,109 --> 00:24:30,325
When we think of totalitarian,

696
00:24:30,701 --> 00:24:31,519
we think of

697
00:24:32,929 --> 00:24:33,429
the

698
00:24:34,123 --> 00:24:35,953
as think of it as a phenomenon that

699
00:24:35,953 --> 00:24:38,756
serves the 1 or or handful of once

700
00:24:38,756 --> 00:24:39,655
at the top

701
00:24:41,229 --> 00:24:42,048
and that

702
00:24:43,302 --> 00:24:45,695
as you... In the thought... It it basically

703
00:24:45,695 --> 00:24:47,585
being authoritarianism plus

704
00:24:48,023 --> 00:24:50,498
Mao wants this Stalin wants this Hitler wants

705
00:24:50,498 --> 00:24:50,737
us.

706
00:24:52,254 --> 00:24:53,232
You're saying the...

707
00:24:53,611 --> 00:24:55,287
It's a the totalitarian is,

708
00:24:56,974 --> 00:24:58,959
decentralized the retiring. So what I would say

709
00:24:59,038 --> 00:24:59,856
It's decentralized

710
00:25:00,230 --> 00:25:00,730
distributed

711
00:25:01,262 --> 00:25:02,929
just like blockchain all this kind of world

712
00:25:02,929 --> 00:25:06,282
of understanding decent and and... This it... That's

713
00:25:06,282 --> 00:25:08,516
really what it is. It's it's authoritarianism that's

714
00:25:08,516 --> 00:25:11,387
gotten decentralized across the population, and it's everywhere

715
00:25:11,387 --> 00:25:13,381
it's all around. So so it's not merely

716
00:25:13,381 --> 00:25:15,589
the case, which I might have thought that

717
00:25:15,869 --> 00:25:17,169
people stop you

718
00:25:18,829 --> 00:25:22,049
in Iran if you're a woman showing hair

719
00:25:22,589 --> 00:25:25,554
because there afraid that if they don't... As

720
00:25:25,554 --> 00:25:27,225
a as with the case certainly in the

721
00:25:27,384 --> 00:25:29,714
Soviet Union. If you don't denounce

722
00:25:30,169 --> 00:25:30,669
a

723
00:25:31,522 --> 00:25:32,181
a trans,

724
00:25:33,369 --> 00:25:35,284
you may be on the list of people

725
00:25:35,284 --> 00:25:35,683
who

726
00:25:36,721 --> 00:25:38,795
observe the trans transaction and did not assist.

727
00:25:39,115 --> 00:25:40,631
Therefore, your fear,

728
00:25:41,364 --> 00:25:43,914
is of is of big brother. But what

729
00:25:43,914 --> 00:25:44,813
we saw

730
00:25:45,986 --> 00:25:47,819
and what you're saying actually shed light on

731
00:25:47,819 --> 00:25:48,638
these other

732
00:25:49,506 --> 00:25:51,494
what we think of as big brother phenomena.

733
00:25:51,733 --> 00:25:54,119
What we saw during Covid was, the people

734
00:25:54,119 --> 00:25:55,335
in the 07:11

735
00:25:55,868 --> 00:25:57,633
who are yelling at you for not wearing

736
00:25:57,633 --> 00:25:59,145
a mask or for letting your nose poke

737
00:25:59,145 --> 00:26:00,895
out of your mask. They weren't afraid of

738
00:26:00,895 --> 00:26:02,328
that. They weren't afraid that they were gonna

739
00:26:02,328 --> 00:26:04,849
get in trouble for not stopping you, wearing

740
00:26:05,049 --> 00:26:06,269
it was an absolutely

741
00:26:06,730 --> 00:26:07,869
sincere totalitarian

742
00:26:08,250 --> 00:26:09,130
impulse on their parts.

743
00:26:10,009 --> 00:26:11,690
Right. There. Right. And that's what I I

744
00:26:11,690 --> 00:26:13,450
think I think I I had some vague

745
00:26:13,450 --> 00:26:15,221
impression about this, but I think I think

746
00:26:15,221 --> 00:26:17,369
if you had asked me 10 years ago,

747
00:26:17,767 --> 00:26:19,380
I might have said, yeah. You got these

748
00:26:19,437 --> 00:26:21,187
authoritarian and, you know, dictators, they set up...

749
00:26:21,839 --> 00:26:24,320
The wise, you know, Kgb or whatever. And

750
00:26:24,320 --> 00:26:25,680
then they set up incentives to make sure

751
00:26:25,680 --> 00:26:28,000
the pot is was afraid, and and it's

752
00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:29,255
all top down and

753
00:26:29,773 --> 00:26:31,607
no... That's not how any of this works

754
00:26:31,687 --> 00:26:33,304
If it works because

755
00:26:33,681 --> 00:26:35,914
there's a 10 percent to 60 percent of

756
00:26:35,914 --> 00:26:38,307
the population, which believes with all of their

757
00:26:38,307 --> 00:26:40,794
heart that the states and the the thing

758
00:26:40,794 --> 00:26:42,866
that they're part of is for the righteous

759
00:26:42,866 --> 00:26:44,801
good, and that the others are uncle clean

760
00:26:44,938 --> 00:26:46,213
and dangerous to society,

761
00:26:47,663 --> 00:26:51,324
and you were video from, earlier this week

762
00:26:51,324 --> 00:26:52,439
or maybe I guess it was the end

763
00:26:52,439 --> 00:26:54,849
of last week, you make the point that

764
00:26:55,639 --> 00:26:58,376
there's the there's great paradox in totalitarian

765
00:26:58,755 --> 00:26:59,974
which is that it's victims

766
00:27:01,711 --> 00:27:02,211
are

767
00:27:02,843 --> 00:27:03,558
it's supporters.

768
00:27:04,273 --> 00:27:06,100
Was was that the point? I mean, or

769
00:27:06,100 --> 00:27:09,119
or the well I mean, I say that

770
00:27:09,119 --> 00:27:10,891
the victims of totalitarian.

771
00:27:11,439 --> 00:27:12,178
Are often

772
00:27:12,553 --> 00:27:14,883
that is... The the people that

773
00:27:15,735 --> 00:27:18,361
and so let's just give it a some

774
00:27:18,361 --> 00:27:20,111
some meat in the case of, of, Gaza,

775
00:27:20,524 --> 00:27:22,442
Right? So as in Iranian, Iranians,

776
00:27:23,242 --> 00:27:25,799
almost every... Of each of us Orion, and,

777
00:27:25,879 --> 00:27:27,317
of course, there's counter examples because even in

778
00:27:27,477 --> 00:27:29,395
Iran, 20 percent maybe to 30 percent of

779
00:27:29,555 --> 00:27:32,115
Orion really... Still support these lawn public. The

780
00:27:32,115 --> 00:27:34,499
mall is, but mostly Iranians do not. Mostly

781
00:27:34,658 --> 00:27:35,158
Iranians

782
00:27:35,690 --> 00:27:38,649
identify with Go sake And and so the

783
00:27:38,649 --> 00:27:41,438
idea that these Western Pro Palestinian folks are

784
00:27:41,438 --> 00:27:43,828
being pro... Is islam prop public and Pro

785
00:27:44,067 --> 00:27:46,377
Hamas blows our mind. Like, no. The average

786
00:27:46,377 --> 00:27:47,117
ga and

787
00:27:47,429 --> 00:27:48,942
in spite of all these poles you think

788
00:27:48,942 --> 00:27:51,036
that you're hearing, you can't trust poles

789
00:27:51,412 --> 00:27:53,803
in a totalitarian state, no 1 is going

790
00:27:53,803 --> 00:27:56,056
to sit down and take an anonymous, supposedly

791
00:27:56,113 --> 00:27:57,045
anonymous poll

792
00:27:57,402 --> 00:27:58,674
First of all, they show up to your

793
00:27:58,674 --> 00:28:01,083
house. That means your neighbors are seeing some

794
00:28:01,616 --> 00:28:03,365
Ap or whatever show to your house and

795
00:28:03,365 --> 00:28:05,353
walk in. They know that something's weird. You're

796
00:28:05,353 --> 00:28:06,759
gonna make sure that all of your answers

797
00:28:06,879 --> 00:28:09,033
first all, you're gonna avoid ever, letting them

798
00:28:09,033 --> 00:28:10,389
even get near your house We're gonna pretend

799
00:28:10,389 --> 00:28:11,746
not to be home. I gotta go. Because

800
00:28:11,746 --> 00:28:13,102
you don't wanna ever be accused of that.

801
00:28:14,074 --> 00:28:15,425
Your life is on the line. None of

802
00:28:15,425 --> 00:28:16,084
these polls

803
00:28:16,458 --> 00:28:17,435
are can possibly

804
00:28:17,889 --> 00:28:19,876
be be trusted. Now, of course, there's way

805
00:28:19,876 --> 00:28:21,863
too many gaza that probably support home hamas.

806
00:28:22,101 --> 00:28:23,627
I'm not saying that there's not... But it

807
00:28:23,627 --> 00:28:25,458
could be 40 percent, it could be 70

808
00:28:25,458 --> 00:28:28,641
percent, but there's massive compounds in these supposed

809
00:28:28,641 --> 00:28:29,039
and polls.

810
00:28:29,675 --> 00:28:31,188
They didn't have... You know, that they elected

811
00:28:31,267 --> 00:28:33,032
Ham hamas. No They didn't elect hamas, I'm

812
00:28:33,032 --> 00:28:33,191
us,

813
00:28:34,541 --> 00:28:36,765
was it were people able to to run

814
00:28:36,765 --> 00:28:38,830
against them without worrying that their family would

815
00:28:38,830 --> 00:28:40,577
be killed, and the obvious answer goes no.

816
00:28:40,736 --> 00:28:42,086
As soon as they were elected, they they

817
00:28:42,086 --> 00:28:44,893
they... Heard the opposition. Nobody was free to

818
00:28:44,893 --> 00:28:46,648
run a, against someone on off, let's say,

819
00:28:46,728 --> 00:28:48,802
a freedom or a piece or Anti Islamist

820
00:28:48,802 --> 00:28:51,366
platform. Right? There is no freedom and they

821
00:28:51,366 --> 00:28:53,752
haven't had even a fake election sets. So

822
00:28:53,752 --> 00:28:57,036
you have... But yet, the supposedly pro ga

823
00:28:57,332 --> 00:28:57,832
western,

824
00:28:59,256 --> 00:28:59,756
are

825
00:29:00,288 --> 00:29:03,149
pro Hamas, which is exactly the main of

826
00:29:03,228 --> 00:29:05,453
Gaza. Right? And their Pro Ir, which is

827
00:29:05,453 --> 00:29:07,852
the main pressure of another mass some group

828
00:29:07,852 --> 00:29:09,203
of muslims the Iranians.

829
00:29:09,680 --> 00:29:11,532
So you end up with the oppressed people

830
00:29:12,224 --> 00:29:13,201
in these Muslim

831
00:29:13,575 --> 00:29:15,109
dictatorship. And the supposed

832
00:29:15,579 --> 00:29:16,937
backers of them They're walking around saying, yeah,

833
00:29:17,097 --> 00:29:19,275
We support you. You're like, no You're supporting

834
00:29:19,494 --> 00:29:21,890
our dictatorship. You know, in both cases.

835
00:29:22,464 --> 00:29:24,802
So and, of course, so the pro palestinian

836
00:29:24,942 --> 00:29:27,339
ones are are supporting the very dictatorship that

837
00:29:27,339 --> 00:29:29,097
are depress them. And then the enemy in

838
00:29:29,097 --> 00:29:30,934
this case, denied, you know, let's say, Israel.

839
00:29:31,109 --> 00:29:32,466
A lot of this written. The Idea gets

840
00:29:32,466 --> 00:29:34,301
it. III can believe the idea of they're

841
00:29:34,301 --> 00:29:36,615
dealing with civilians on the ground and gaza

842
00:29:36,615 --> 00:29:38,130
all the time. They really do wanna bring

843
00:29:38,130 --> 00:29:40,381
in a food. They're they they... They're close

844
00:29:40,381 --> 00:29:41,498
enough to the ground that they're not able

845
00:29:41,498 --> 00:29:43,754
to imagine that the average Ga

846
00:29:44,212 --> 00:29:45,809
is the same as Hamas. There's differences. You

847
00:29:45,809 --> 00:29:46,847
know I mean Mean there's a lot of

848
00:29:46,847 --> 00:29:48,536
ga that are hamas. I'm not saying there

849
00:29:48,536 --> 00:29:49,967
are. But they get it if there's lots

850
00:29:49,967 --> 00:29:51,161
of people that just say this sucks for

851
00:29:51,161 --> 00:29:53,388
us. Right, because we're being... But

852
00:29:53,786 --> 00:29:56,109
but some israelis, Just by as simpler to

853
00:29:56,109 --> 00:29:57,463
say, it's a lot simpler. We just lump

854
00:29:57,463 --> 00:29:59,773
them all in as 1 thing. So I'm

855
00:29:59,773 --> 00:30:02,083
often, I'm already look, Ga don't equal hamas,

856
00:30:02,402 --> 00:30:03,835
just like Orion zone equal...

857
00:30:04,486 --> 00:30:05,224
The Ir,

858
00:30:05,677 --> 00:30:07,901
and people on both ends are saying, no.

859
00:30:08,059 --> 00:30:09,489
That's not true and they all wanna argue

860
00:30:09,489 --> 00:30:11,633
they're the exact sense, which is exactly the

861
00:30:11,633 --> 00:30:14,032
nightmare for the oppressed the patel. And state.

862
00:30:15,227 --> 00:30:17,776
Nobody's on their side. And social media making

863
00:30:17,776 --> 00:30:18,276
this

864
00:30:18,732 --> 00:30:20,539
worse, I would think that it is. Alright

865
00:30:20,818 --> 00:30:22,962
I would... IIII think that That it has

866
00:30:22,962 --> 00:30:25,107
to be or... I mean, there's probably many

867
00:30:25,107 --> 00:30:27,014
dimensions some in which it's making it worse

868
00:30:27,014 --> 00:30:29,652
certainly the most obvious is that and going

869
00:30:29,652 --> 00:30:31,244
back to the Covid was the degree to

870
00:30:31,244 --> 00:30:32,837
which it spread. So there's 2 things that

871
00:30:32,837 --> 00:30:34,531
we learn in at Covid is not just

872
00:30:35,066 --> 00:30:38,269
those weird cultural people you know, we come

873
00:30:38,269 --> 00:30:39,568
up with some post hoc dip,

874
00:30:40,027 --> 00:30:42,424
but it's also... You it used to spread

875
00:30:42,424 --> 00:30:44,343
to the edges of its boundaries and maybe

876
00:30:44,343 --> 00:30:46,101
spill over and mess up some neighboring countries

877
00:30:46,101 --> 00:30:46,500
a little bit.

878
00:30:47,634 --> 00:30:49,715
But now it just spreads worldwide. So this

879
00:30:49,715 --> 00:30:51,634
is the first time we saw something like

880
00:30:51,634 --> 00:30:54,275
this immediately spread in in a week. Well,

881
00:30:54,434 --> 00:30:56,609
I'm not just instantaneously. Just happened... All over

882
00:30:56,609 --> 00:30:58,684
the world all at once with all of

883
00:30:58,684 --> 00:31:02,537
these, you know, immediate spikes of excess deaths

884
00:31:02,914 --> 00:31:04,671
in March, all over the world,

885
00:31:05,643 --> 00:31:07,100
A virus doesn't simultaneously.

886
00:31:07,717 --> 00:31:09,711
Hit disparate parts in the world all at

887
00:31:09,711 --> 00:31:11,806
once. Right? Was mass hysteria,

888
00:31:13,539 --> 00:31:14,736
a self induced deaths.

889
00:31:15,863 --> 00:31:16,022
But...

890
00:31:17,053 --> 00:31:18,005
So what's the role...

891
00:31:18,798 --> 00:31:21,336
I mean, we we said that totalitarian is

892
00:31:21,336 --> 00:31:21,654
sort of a...

893
00:31:22,463 --> 00:31:23,361
A democrat

894
00:31:24,133 --> 00:31:24,633
of

895
00:31:25,008 --> 00:31:25,508
ideological

896
00:31:26,917 --> 00:31:27,417
extremism,

897
00:31:29,559 --> 00:31:32,436
what happens to elites in that? Because as

898
00:31:32,596 --> 00:31:34,374
I'm asking the question, I'm wondering if

899
00:31:35,632 --> 00:31:37,684
the reaction of the elites to this

900
00:31:38,044 --> 00:31:39,580
phenomenon, which was so

901
00:31:40,037 --> 00:31:40,436
awful,

902
00:31:41,553 --> 00:31:42,829
and the doubling down.

903
00:31:44,264 --> 00:31:46,418
Sounds as if there it was an attempt

904
00:31:46,418 --> 00:31:46,918
to

905
00:31:48,184 --> 00:31:48,684
assert

906
00:31:49,058 --> 00:31:52,180
a leadership role where, in fact, no there

907
00:31:53,031 --> 00:31:55,597
there was really a an sort of organic

908
00:31:56,862 --> 00:31:57,362
hysteria

909
00:31:57,819 --> 00:31:59,992
phenomenon going on. So elites

910
00:32:01,007 --> 00:32:03,159
unable to. In other words, I I always

911
00:32:03,159 --> 00:32:04,297
thought, and I don't

912
00:32:04,848 --> 00:32:05,508
I can't

913
00:32:06,442 --> 00:32:07,558
I can't back this up.

914
00:32:08,355 --> 00:32:09,869
But that there was in the in the

915
00:32:09,869 --> 00:32:11,065
in the brain of Donald Trump.

916
00:32:12,754 --> 00:32:15,865
In 20 early 20 20, a small still

917
00:32:15,865 --> 00:32:16,582
voice saying,

918
00:32:18,816 --> 00:32:20,411
this this sounds a little... This sounds a

919
00:32:20,411 --> 00:32:21,549
little crazy, but

920
00:32:24,011 --> 00:32:25,682
we gotta, you know, all the scientists are

921
00:32:25,682 --> 00:32:27,432
telling me this, and I I've gotta look

922
00:32:27,432 --> 00:32:28,147
like I'm in charge.

923
00:32:29,341 --> 00:32:31,429
Yep And the down the line, everyone is

924
00:32:31,429 --> 00:32:32,408
saying, look, this

925
00:32:32,945 --> 00:32:34,381
this is where everything's going,

926
00:32:35,259 --> 00:32:36,455
we need to look like we're...

927
00:32:37,583 --> 00:32:40,283
Like we're taking people there in order to

928
00:32:40,283 --> 00:32:42,348
retain that reputation power,

929
00:32:43,539 --> 00:32:44,356
that means

930
00:32:44,983 --> 00:32:47,129
everything to to people, you know, in in

931
00:32:47,129 --> 00:32:49,059
in those in those categories. So you have

932
00:32:49,830 --> 00:32:51,920
fauci. Let's forget about his own personal

933
00:32:52,548 --> 00:32:55,096
interest and financial interest. But all these people,

934
00:32:55,256 --> 00:32:57,167
all these governors and all these heads of

935
00:32:57,167 --> 00:32:57,406
state,

936
00:32:58,521 --> 00:33:00,534
buying in, you know, just disregard

937
00:33:01,324 --> 00:33:02,461
all normal protocols

938
00:33:03,314 --> 00:33:05,623
of how decisions are made just as you

939
00:33:05,623 --> 00:33:06,897
know, as you were describing before.

940
00:33:07,534 --> 00:33:09,445
Yeah. And and I I... It's easy to...

941
00:33:09,700 --> 00:33:12,759
So potentially say that they're consciously thinking through

942
00:33:13,380 --> 00:33:15,859
that in order to maintain my reputation, I

943
00:33:15,859 --> 00:33:17,779
have to... No. It's not like... That's not.

944
00:33:18,099 --> 00:33:19,951
No. That... That's Yeah. That's just not not

945
00:33:19,951 --> 00:33:22,101
a people operate. But but but we... I

946
00:33:22,101 --> 00:33:23,853
think of the medical profession in particular.

947
00:33:25,605 --> 00:33:27,118
And, know, when I was in law school,

948
00:33:28,730 --> 00:33:30,890
the the the medical school and the law

949
00:33:30,890 --> 00:33:32,830
school at Northwestern were

950
00:33:33,210 --> 00:33:35,150
there I managed to mention both of my

951
00:33:35,370 --> 00:33:37,130
fancy schools as I mentioned yours,

952
00:33:39,464 --> 00:33:40,525
we're we're we're

953
00:33:40,904 --> 00:33:41,784
together in Chicago.

954
00:33:43,304 --> 00:33:45,464
The rest of the campus was in Evans,

955
00:33:46,279 --> 00:33:47,636
And we had... We in the law school

956
00:33:47,636 --> 00:33:49,951
had a nicer newer library than the medical

957
00:33:49,951 --> 00:33:52,107
school. And the medical stu school students was

958
00:33:52,107 --> 00:33:53,783
sometimes times come in and and study our

959
00:33:53,783 --> 00:33:54,741
place and there was all this...

960
00:33:55,792 --> 00:33:57,720
You know, we would tease them

961
00:33:58,489 --> 00:33:58,989
because

962
00:33:59,679 --> 00:34:01,369
they were taking up our spaces, but

963
00:34:01,741 --> 00:34:03,590
they were definitely a different sort of

964
00:34:03,899 --> 00:34:04,219
person.

965
00:34:04,938 --> 00:34:07,095
And they tended... You know, and what I

966
00:34:07,095 --> 00:34:08,714
learned about a medicine

967
00:34:09,891 --> 00:34:13,253
is that doctors don't tend to be necessarily

968
00:34:13,253 --> 00:34:15,578
courageous people. They tend, you know, they

969
00:34:16,824 --> 00:34:19,443
they're very good at at learning really important

970
00:34:19,443 --> 00:34:22,266
stuff, but the medical profession

971
00:34:22,803 --> 00:34:24,101
so profoundly

972
00:34:24,717 --> 00:34:25,036
failed,

973
00:34:26,711 --> 00:34:28,487
but not not only at the

974
00:34:28,865 --> 00:34:30,594
institutional level, you know, all the

975
00:34:31,914 --> 00:34:32,414
elite

976
00:34:32,715 --> 00:34:33,695
members, but

977
00:34:35,195 --> 00:34:36,954
how many doctor's officers can do you still

978
00:34:36,954 --> 00:34:39,925
go into where they're requiring masks in 2024.

979
00:34:40,164 --> 00:34:41,679
It's only beginning to fall off.

980
00:34:42,476 --> 00:34:44,310
Yeah. Well, that's a good question. So you

981
00:34:44,310 --> 00:34:46,622
mean, doctors are not the the goal of

982
00:34:46,622 --> 00:34:47,101
a doctor.

983
00:34:47,673 --> 00:34:48,389
Is not to,

984
00:34:49,819 --> 00:34:52,839
constantly challenge the status quo in the in

985
00:34:52,839 --> 00:34:54,587
that sort of a in the standard practice,

986
00:34:54,746 --> 00:34:55,859
whereas in some sense,

987
00:34:57,468 --> 00:34:57,868
lawyers...

988
00:34:58,746 --> 00:35:00,744
You know, there's the stat. There's there's... They're

989
00:35:00,744 --> 00:35:02,901
constantly about questioning and and and looking for

990
00:35:02,901 --> 00:35:05,228
angles and looking for space. Mean right When

991
00:35:05,228 --> 00:35:07,554
the want to accommodate themselves do very well

992
00:35:07,848 --> 00:35:08,721
in both professions.

993
00:35:10,784 --> 00:35:11,284
But,

994
00:35:11,975 --> 00:35:13,746
I But did lawyers, is there a higher

995
00:35:13,746 --> 00:35:16,220
rate of lawyers that solved through this. I

996
00:35:16,220 --> 00:35:17,816
suspect there's not... You know? No. I don't

997
00:35:17,816 --> 00:35:19,093
think so at all. I don't have so...

998
00:35:19,253 --> 00:35:20,530
No No. I thought it which I think.

999
00:35:20,863 --> 00:35:22,236
What happens is the higher

1000
00:35:23,640 --> 00:35:25,251
the the the the

1001
00:35:28,179 --> 00:35:29,694
too speculative. Way too speculative.

1002
00:35:30,253 --> 00:35:30,753
But

1003
00:35:31,210 --> 00:35:31,710
now

1004
00:35:33,603 --> 00:35:35,538
what... What... What's the result in

1005
00:35:35,995 --> 00:35:36,713
4 years out,

1006
00:35:38,563 --> 00:35:39,998
do we at least have...

1007
00:35:40,796 --> 00:35:41,455
Have we

1008
00:35:41,833 --> 00:35:43,587
can we... Have we learned anything that we

1009
00:35:43,587 --> 00:35:45,900
can put to use from what happened and

1010
00:35:45,900 --> 00:35:46,857
and what would that look like?

1011
00:35:49,185 --> 00:35:50,860
Yeah. I mean, this is this is things

1012
00:35:50,860 --> 00:35:52,136
that I I I've certainly

1013
00:35:53,891 --> 00:35:55,566
thought a lot about. IIII

1014
00:35:55,566 --> 00:35:57,081
don't claim to have big answers yet, but

1015
00:35:57,081 --> 00:35:59,835
they're certainly some of the the the main

1016
00:36:00,535 --> 00:36:03,015
and simplest things are, that civil liberties,

1017
00:36:04,535 --> 00:36:06,135
in know, really, every generation needs to be

1018
00:36:06,135 --> 00:36:08,783
re taught, the purpose so liberties. Sub liberties

1019
00:36:08,783 --> 00:36:09,921
are there for

1020
00:36:10,537 --> 00:36:13,407
the dangerous emergencies the perceived emergencies. So that's

1021
00:36:13,407 --> 00:36:14,523
the only reason that we have them.

1022
00:36:15,734 --> 00:36:18,225
Just like, a, a free expression is for

1023
00:36:18,602 --> 00:36:20,912
your most hated enemies. That's the whole point.

1024
00:36:21,231 --> 00:36:23,382
There's no reason to even talk about free

1025
00:36:23,382 --> 00:36:25,190
expression. If we're only talking about people who's

1026
00:36:25,308 --> 00:36:25,808
voices

1027
00:36:26,498 --> 00:36:28,877
you like to hear there we... We wouldn't

1028
00:36:28,877 --> 00:36:30,542
need a a principle for that because we

1029
00:36:30,542 --> 00:36:32,604
all online. It's only when we have,

1030
00:36:33,494 --> 00:36:35,889
perceived dangers, and we feel like the world

1031
00:36:35,889 --> 00:36:37,964
is being heard by our, you know, enemies

1032
00:36:37,964 --> 00:36:40,838
that we wanna suddenly stop them or or

1033
00:36:40,838 --> 00:36:43,429
or halt their, their their liberties So

1034
00:36:44,204 --> 00:36:46,116
I've done, you know, probably 25, 30,

1035
00:36:46,913 --> 00:36:49,462
in know, many dozens of of of science

1036
00:36:49,462 --> 00:36:51,056
was trying to come at civil liberties from

1037
00:36:51,056 --> 00:36:52,592
very different kinds of angles

1038
00:36:53,143 --> 00:36:53,383
to

1039
00:36:54,101 --> 00:36:55,618
to try to drive at home in ways

1040
00:36:55,618 --> 00:36:57,774
that people aren't typically thinking about, as well

1041
00:36:57,774 --> 00:37:00,328
as a hundred episodes in in a on

1042
00:37:00,328 --> 00:37:03,619
on, on free expression. So I think really,

1043
00:37:04,099 --> 00:37:05,800
this is something that's it's

1044
00:37:06,420 --> 00:37:09,320
it's very intuitive to people that civil liberties

1045
00:37:09,460 --> 00:37:11,219
are something that has to be balanced.

1046
00:37:11,873 --> 00:37:13,309
And so as soon as you have the

1047
00:37:13,309 --> 00:37:14,686
notion that they're not d

1048
00:37:15,303 --> 00:37:17,855
constraints that is firm constraints, But are instead,

1049
00:37:18,015 --> 00:37:19,929
something that has to be balanced amongst the

1050
00:37:19,929 --> 00:37:21,046
many other utilities,

1051
00:37:21,699 --> 00:37:22,739
And then suddenly,

1052
00:37:23,860 --> 00:37:25,940
well, there's always something that needs to be

1053
00:37:25,940 --> 00:37:28,179
done. There's always starving people. There's always someone

1054
00:37:28,179 --> 00:37:29,940
being attacked. There's always some danger.

1055
00:37:30,753 --> 00:37:33,130
Right? In which case, civil Liberties are always

1056
00:37:33,130 --> 00:37:34,240
at stake because they're just 1 of the

1057
00:37:34,240 --> 00:37:35,191
things that you're balancing.

1058
00:37:37,093 --> 00:37:37,410
But

1059
00:37:38,140 --> 00:37:40,219
I don't That... That's sort of an academic,

1060
00:37:41,659 --> 00:37:44,140
you know, moral answer, but on a on

1061
00:37:44,140 --> 00:37:45,019
a more practical...

1062
00:37:46,233 --> 00:37:46,630
Level.

1063
00:37:48,858 --> 00:37:50,234
Is what kind of

1064
00:37:51,484 --> 00:37:52,757
maybe maybe that is the next thing you're

1065
00:37:52,757 --> 00:37:54,769
gonna say. The thing about you, Marcus that

1066
00:37:55,637 --> 00:37:57,706
you've always got something more to say because

1067
00:37:57,706 --> 00:37:59,218
you've you you've got a lot.

1068
00:38:01,128 --> 00:38:02,894
You've got a lot of windows o. Been

1069
00:38:02,894 --> 00:38:04,652
at the same time because you're drawing on

1070
00:38:04,652 --> 00:38:06,650
on a lot of different areas of of

1071
00:38:06,650 --> 00:38:08,407
of of of interest.

1072
00:38:09,046 --> 00:38:11,611
Well, I mean, another but another moral to

1073
00:38:11,611 --> 00:38:13,599
me about the United States for health other

1074
00:38:13,599 --> 00:38:13,758
countries,

1075
00:38:14,474 --> 00:38:16,780
was that we had federal, which is 1

1076
00:38:16,780 --> 00:38:19,245
of the few things that looks like it

1077
00:38:19,245 --> 00:38:19,904
came out

1078
00:38:22,215 --> 00:38:23,255
really in good standing.

1079
00:38:23,894 --> 00:38:25,655
Most of... When you get Stereo, most of

1080
00:38:25,655 --> 00:38:28,054
these these flood waters of these memes of

1081
00:38:28,054 --> 00:38:30,144
this new righteous communities, just floods right over

1082
00:38:30,144 --> 00:38:32,773
overall they suppose it's liberty protections. They just

1083
00:38:32,773 --> 00:38:34,605
just goes to go right over. But by

1084
00:38:34,605 --> 00:38:37,313
virtue of the natural statistical properties variability from

1085
00:38:37,313 --> 00:38:38,521
state to state and a little bit of

1086
00:38:38,521 --> 00:38:40,344
different cultural mil in each state.

1087
00:38:41,216 --> 00:38:43,277
We ended up with, you know, at first,

1088
00:38:43,514 --> 00:38:45,630
Florida was actually pretty authoritarian. A little bit

1089
00:38:45,748 --> 00:38:48,605
But by end of summer, beginning of late

1090
00:38:48,605 --> 00:38:50,747
20 20, it kinda turned around really quick,

1091
00:38:51,143 --> 00:38:52,413
and they got... It got its head and

1092
00:38:52,413 --> 00:38:54,334
order and and and so there was... There

1093
00:38:54,334 --> 00:38:55,692
were replaces in the United States you could

1094
00:38:55,692 --> 00:38:57,550
go. So I moved from Ohio

1095
00:38:58,089 --> 00:39:00,326
to to Miami after, you know, try this

1096
00:39:00,326 --> 00:39:02,576
move took us 22. 2 years before. We'd

1097
00:39:02,576 --> 00:39:05,206
get here. But you had places with 50

1098
00:39:05,206 --> 00:39:07,518
different states, you have enough variability that there

1099
00:39:07,518 --> 00:39:10,159
was some place to flee 2 Now you

1100
00:39:10,159 --> 00:39:11,665
also have places that federal wasn't, like, in

1101
00:39:11,744 --> 00:39:13,487
Canada and Australia, but I think the numbers

1102
00:39:13,487 --> 00:39:16,181
of provinces and, you know, territories were... So

1103
00:39:16,181 --> 00:39:16,498
small.

1104
00:39:16,989 --> 00:39:18,346
That you prop... They... It just seemed that

1105
00:39:18,346 --> 00:39:20,340
they all ended up bouncing as 1,

1106
00:39:20,979 --> 00:39:22,655
and there there was really nowhere to run.

1107
00:39:22,894 --> 00:39:24,091
But so I think 1 of the few

1108
00:39:24,091 --> 00:39:26,174
things that came out really well was all

1109
00:39:26,174 --> 00:39:28,002
of these supposed protections and balances of power

1110
00:39:28,002 --> 00:39:29,273
in the United I'd States it's failed, but

1111
00:39:29,273 --> 00:39:29,750
federal.

1112
00:39:30,307 --> 00:39:32,158
At the end of the day, worked because

1113
00:39:32,469 --> 00:39:34,621
of, you know, laws of large numbers or

1114
00:39:34,621 --> 00:39:36,057
something like this. That, you know, it's just

1115
00:39:36,057 --> 00:39:37,992
sort of a mathematical. It was enough variability

1116
00:39:38,369 --> 00:39:41,101
that allowed some independent cultural evolution to occur

1117
00:39:41,414 --> 00:39:41,735
and,

1118
00:39:42,775 --> 00:39:44,855
that that was a real saber. A lot

1119
00:39:44,855 --> 00:39:46,775
of people would email me constantly from Just

1120
00:39:46,775 --> 00:39:48,215
like, they had nowhere to run. They felt

1121
00:39:48,215 --> 00:39:48,454
helpless.

1122
00:39:49,989 --> 00:39:51,746
So that's a so that's a plus on

1123
00:39:51,746 --> 00:39:53,764
social media. Right? Because

1124
00:39:54,303 --> 00:39:55,023
you could certainly...

1125
00:39:55,582 --> 00:39:58,067
I I think you can see that... Almost

1126
00:39:58,067 --> 00:40:00,232
the same thing happening if we

1127
00:40:00,762 --> 00:40:02,664
scroll back to the eighties, and there's no

1128
00:40:02,664 --> 00:40:03,378
social media,

1129
00:40:03,932 --> 00:40:04,432
but

1130
00:40:05,138 --> 00:40:06,972
the New York Times in the Washington pub...

1131
00:40:07,291 --> 00:40:08,806
Alright. I guess you can't really...

1132
00:40:10,001 --> 00:40:11,538
Just like any anytime travel

1133
00:40:12,313 --> 00:40:12,712
scenario.

1134
00:40:13,682 --> 00:40:15,453
If you go back to say, well, what

1135
00:40:16,144 --> 00:40:18,289
what would the elite media have done that

1136
00:40:18,289 --> 00:40:20,275
would have been any different? If if that's

1137
00:40:20,275 --> 00:40:22,340
all you had word gate capped media? Well,

1138
00:40:22,499 --> 00:40:24,108
first of all, the New York times in

1139
00:40:24,108 --> 00:40:26,185
the Washington post would not be as radically

1140
00:40:26,185 --> 00:40:27,144
left as they are now,

1141
00:40:28,582 --> 00:40:29,801
or radically

1142
00:40:30,754 --> 00:40:32,430
status as they are now because they have

1143
00:40:32,430 --> 00:40:34,585
been forced into that corner by social media.

1144
00:40:34,824 --> 00:40:36,261
I don't mean forced morally,

1145
00:40:36,820 --> 00:40:39,388
but commercially, they made a decision that that...

1146
00:40:39,627 --> 00:40:41,400
That's the only way they can survive is

1147
00:40:41,458 --> 00:40:44,027
is is with this highly curated,

1148
00:40:44,960 --> 00:40:47,746
you know, highly ideological readers leadership that's that's

1149
00:40:47,746 --> 00:40:48,223
gonna pay.

1150
00:40:50,394 --> 00:40:51,775
But you do have channels

1151
00:40:52,715 --> 00:40:54,414
available to you today

1152
00:40:55,035 --> 00:40:56,394
that you didn't net.

1153
00:40:57,049 --> 00:40:59,126
Discussions like this and your your videos and

1154
00:40:59,126 --> 00:41:00,005
the stuff that you put out.

1155
00:41:01,284 --> 00:41:02,483
I mean, well, I mean, first of all,

1156
00:41:02,802 --> 00:41:05,133
that's something else that the United States, I

1157
00:41:05,133 --> 00:41:07,307
think comes out smelling like a rose

1158
00:41:08,162 --> 00:41:09,836
with. The free expression stuff,

1159
00:41:10,554 --> 00:41:12,706
there were some really big failures there.

1160
00:41:13,359 --> 00:41:15,592
But most of us recognize them as failures.

1161
00:41:16,548 --> 00:41:18,882
I'll be super glad when the Supreme court

1162
00:41:19,738 --> 00:41:21,811
and the judiciary general recognize recognized them as

1163
00:41:21,811 --> 00:41:22,210
failures.

1164
00:41:23,020 --> 00:41:24,394
A lot of censorship

1165
00:41:25,324 --> 00:41:25,824
was

1166
00:41:26,755 --> 00:41:27,890
rationalize and justified.

1167
00:41:30,108 --> 00:41:32,981
By this supposed emergency, which was opposed to,

1168
00:41:33,140 --> 00:41:33,778
as you would say.

1169
00:41:35,055 --> 00:41:38,343
We're combining 2 things. Right? Civil civil liberties

1170
00:41:38,343 --> 00:41:40,181
are supposed to be because of emergency. And

1171
00:41:40,181 --> 00:41:42,199
free speech is supposed to be because of

1172
00:41:42,338 --> 00:41:44,896
of, speech you don't wanna hear. The challenge

1173
00:41:44,896 --> 00:41:45,635
here was

1174
00:41:46,030 --> 00:41:47,809
the Civil liberty of free speech

1175
00:41:48,109 --> 00:41:49,010
in an emergency.

1176
00:41:49,869 --> 00:41:51,809
And because of this weird police

1177
00:41:52,510 --> 00:41:53,010
powers

1178
00:41:54,030 --> 00:41:54,269
loophole,

1179
00:41:55,163 --> 00:41:56,298
in the unwritten

1180
00:41:57,069 --> 00:41:57,228
constitution.

1181
00:41:58,658 --> 00:41:59,634
The judiciary

1182
00:42:00,802 --> 00:42:01,302
mostly

1183
00:42:01,835 --> 00:42:02,970
mostly blew it

1184
00:42:03,518 --> 00:42:04,657
But I think culturally,

1185
00:42:05,433 --> 00:42:07,528
most people who are serious thinkers

1186
00:42:09,900 --> 00:42:11,814
and were... Or with the discussion and persuasion

1187
00:42:11,814 --> 00:42:12,952
on this recognize recognized

1188
00:42:13,661 --> 00:42:14,478
some really

1189
00:42:14,930 --> 00:42:17,096
really mistaken stuff happened

1190
00:42:17,627 --> 00:42:19,396
in this process in terms of

1191
00:42:19,769 --> 00:42:19,928
censorship.

1192
00:42:20,736 --> 00:42:22,483
My hope that you're right. I... My own

1193
00:42:22,483 --> 00:42:23,380
impression from

1194
00:42:24,389 --> 00:42:25,104
from the left,

1195
00:42:26,930 --> 00:42:28,598
is not that that that what they... They

1196
00:42:28,598 --> 00:42:30,679
so far don't believe that made any mistakes

1197
00:42:30,679 --> 00:42:32,828
in this regard. I don't think they're not

1198
00:42:32,828 --> 00:42:34,419
serious sneakers I mean I mean, they have

1199
00:42:34,419 --> 00:42:36,272
abandoned... The their mass

1200
00:42:36,965 --> 00:42:39,449
hysteria has not ended. They've Yeah.

1201
00:42:40,486 --> 00:42:41,683
You know, Mark, believe it or not.

1202
00:42:42,481 --> 00:42:44,556
It's it's been it's been 3 quarters been

1203
00:42:44,556 --> 00:42:44,795
hour.

1204
00:42:45,833 --> 00:42:48,163
Exactly what happened with... With with Randy,

1205
00:42:48,722 --> 00:42:50,661
is is, you know, we

1206
00:42:51,039 --> 00:42:51,998
we can do this all day.

1207
00:42:54,489 --> 00:42:56,105
You have... You you

1208
00:42:56,563 --> 00:42:58,476
make a... You're not in an academic post

1209
00:42:58,476 --> 00:42:58,876
now. Right?

1210
00:42:59,673 --> 00:43:01,827
That's right. You're right. You you you run

1211
00:43:01,827 --> 00:43:03,661
your company or you ran? You sold it.

1212
00:43:03,900 --> 00:43:04,195
Once

1213
00:43:04,954 --> 00:43:06,875
No, I, I have a company v optics.

1214
00:43:07,195 --> 00:43:09,275
Would I I still run sort of vein

1215
00:43:09,275 --> 00:43:11,195
finer glasses, colored Mine glass coming out of

1216
00:43:11,195 --> 00:43:13,195
my discovery that we... Why we evolved. It's

1217
00:43:13,195 --> 00:43:15,128
an excellent to see blood under of the

1218
00:43:15,128 --> 00:43:16,806
skin to see emotions enough. And then I

1219
00:43:16,806 --> 00:43:18,745
we... I have a sort of a

1220
00:43:19,524 --> 00:43:21,521
incubator. So we're... There's other companies that are

1221
00:43:21,521 --> 00:43:22,880
coming out and

1222
00:43:23,614 --> 00:43:24,733
I'll let you know more about it. And

1223
00:43:24,733 --> 00:43:26,731
as well as another, you know, another couple

1224
00:43:26,731 --> 00:43:27,450
books in the works.

1225
00:43:28,728 --> 00:43:29,288
You are...

1226
00:43:30,406 --> 00:43:31,306
It was

1227
00:43:32,179 --> 00:43:34,733
my experience has been that the vast majority

1228
00:43:34,733 --> 00:43:35,473
of people

1229
00:43:36,410 --> 00:43:39,045
who use the word poly math on their

1230
00:43:39,045 --> 00:43:39,843
own websites.

1231
00:43:41,693 --> 00:43:42,328
Can pull it off.

1232
00:43:43,995 --> 00:43:46,322
Everything... Everything I've seen and heard from you

1233
00:43:46,456 --> 00:43:48,282
suggest to me that that that you can,

1234
00:43:49,235 --> 00:43:49,632
and

1235
00:43:50,838 --> 00:43:51,077
you know,

1236
00:43:53,142 --> 00:43:55,389
I really hate having to acknowledge

1237
00:43:55,763 --> 00:43:57,670
when someone is smarter than I am,

1238
00:43:58,385 --> 00:43:58,885
but,

1239
00:43:59,594 --> 00:43:59,675
no.

1240
00:44:00,394 --> 00:44:03,355
Just just different. Instead of instead of studying

1241
00:44:03,355 --> 00:44:05,434
1 vertical, I happen have, you know, just

1242
00:44:05,434 --> 00:44:07,835
sort of went horizontally. But, yeah. I appreciate.

1243
00:44:08,155 --> 00:44:11,271
The fact is it it you you you

1244
00:44:11,271 --> 00:44:12,065
you got a lot.

1245
00:44:13,017 --> 00:44:14,843
You you're thinking big picture in in a

1246
00:44:14,843 --> 00:44:16,589
way that in in a in a poly

1247
00:44:16,589 --> 00:44:17,304
mathematical kind of way.

1248
00:44:17,954 --> 00:44:19,330
And you have to because

1249
00:44:19,707 --> 00:44:21,322
so much... The

1250
00:44:21,778 --> 00:44:23,871
what's fascinating is that the

1251
00:44:24,726 --> 00:44:27,058
approaches like yours and I... And

1252
00:44:27,927 --> 00:44:29,597
I mean, the multiple approaches of yours.

1253
00:44:31,904 --> 00:44:32,404
And

1254
00:44:32,938 --> 00:44:33,494
the... Being...

1255
00:44:34,210 --> 00:44:35,347
Have it taken a theoretical

1256
00:44:35,722 --> 00:44:37,734
approach... To the things that are going on

1257
00:44:37,734 --> 00:44:38,554
in the world

1258
00:44:39,494 --> 00:44:39,994
and

1259
00:44:40,534 --> 00:44:43,195
them to and and linking them to

1260
00:44:43,909 --> 00:44:45,845
physiological and neurological and psychological

1261
00:44:46,622 --> 00:44:47,122
phenomena

1262
00:44:49,335 --> 00:44:50,931
is really the only way to truly understand

1263
00:44:50,931 --> 00:44:53,184
it. And and there are only handful of

1264
00:44:53,184 --> 00:44:55,184
people who could even try to do so.

1265
00:44:55,505 --> 00:44:57,025
And Mark, I thank you very much for

1266
00:44:57,025 --> 00:44:59,912
your continued efforts in doing that. And sharing

1267
00:44:59,912 --> 00:45:02,689
it and for culminating with me today.

1268
00:45:03,800 --> 00:45:05,546
Pleasure to me. Catch you later.

1269
00:45:06,514 --> 00:45:08,451
Hey, thank you for listening to the Coleman

1270
00:45:08,509 --> 00:45:09,307
culmination podcast.

1271
00:45:10,105 --> 00:45:12,818
Don't forget to subscribe on Apple podcasts or

1272
00:45:12,818 --> 00:45:15,224
your favorite podcast app. If you like the

1273
00:45:15,224 --> 00:45:17,050
show, please rated it 5 stars and leave

1274
00:45:17,050 --> 00:45:20,226
a review. For more information, please visit the

1275
00:45:20,226 --> 00:45:22,505
show's website at coleman dash

1276
00:45:22,862 --> 00:45:26,122
nation dot com. That's coleman hyphen nation dot

1277
00:45:26,122 --> 00:45:28,666
com or you can visit my blog at

1278
00:45:28,666 --> 00:45:30,495
likelihood of confusion dot com.

1279
00:45:31,387 --> 00:45:34,020
Join us next time on a Coleman nation

1280
00:45:34,020 --> 00:45:35,934
podcast and have a great day.