1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:03,279 Welcome to the Becker's Healthcare podcast. I'm Mariah 2 00:00:03,279 --> 00:00:05,440 Taylor, assistant editor, and I'm thrilled to be 3 00:00:05,440 --> 00:00:08,559 interviewing Karen Cox, president of Chamberlain University, on 4 00:00:08,559 --> 00:00:11,359 the podcast today. Doctor Cox, thank you so 5 00:00:11,359 --> 00:00:13,445 much for joining me. I am so excited 6 00:00:13,445 --> 00:00:15,285 to get your insights on the trends around 7 00:00:15,285 --> 00:00:16,885 men in nursing and what they're doing in 8 00:00:16,885 --> 00:00:19,204 the field. But before we dive in, I'd 9 00:00:19,204 --> 00:00:20,884 love for you to introduce yourself and tell 10 00:00:20,884 --> 00:00:22,425 us a little bit about your background. 11 00:00:23,285 --> 00:00:25,765 Thanks, Marielle. I'm excited about this topic as 12 00:00:25,765 --> 00:00:26,265 well. 13 00:00:26,899 --> 00:00:28,920 So I am president of Chamberlain 14 00:00:29,300 --> 00:00:31,619 University, as you mentioned, have been in that 15 00:00:31,619 --> 00:00:33,939 role for 6 years. But prior to that, 16 00:00:33,939 --> 00:00:36,579 I spent 24 years as a chief nursing 17 00:00:36,579 --> 00:00:37,079 officer 18 00:00:37,460 --> 00:00:38,553 and chief operating officer at the Children's Hospital 19 00:00:38,553 --> 00:00:39,320 in Kansas City. So have a 20 00:00:40,265 --> 00:00:41,645 Hospital in Kansas City. 21 00:00:42,104 --> 00:00:44,685 So have a a mix of service and, 22 00:00:45,145 --> 00:00:46,445 academic background. 23 00:00:46,745 --> 00:00:49,385 And and importantly, I think, yes, I started 24 00:00:49,385 --> 00:00:52,505 my career as a licensed practical nurse, so 25 00:00:52,505 --> 00:00:55,020 I'm someone who understands kind of the the 26 00:00:55,260 --> 00:00:57,600 multiple pathways that you get to nursing. 27 00:00:58,140 --> 00:01:00,159 And that's really, I think, 28 00:01:00,940 --> 00:01:03,179 meaningful when we talk about men and how 29 00:01:03,179 --> 00:01:04,319 they end up in nursing. 30 00:01:05,500 --> 00:01:07,980 So, doctor Cox, as president, what are some 31 00:01:07,980 --> 00:01:10,459 of the demographics of nursing at Chamberlain in 32 00:01:10,459 --> 00:01:10,959 Wogan? 33 00:01:11,715 --> 00:01:12,995 So when you think about, 34 00:01:13,555 --> 00:01:14,534 men in nursing, 35 00:01:14,915 --> 00:01:16,135 Mariah, at Chamberlain, 36 00:01:16,834 --> 00:01:18,135 as of our 37 00:01:18,435 --> 00:01:19,334 last fall, 38 00:01:19,875 --> 00:01:22,615 we had about a little over 4200 39 00:01:23,155 --> 00:01:24,935 students that were men enrolled, 40 00:01:25,729 --> 00:01:27,670 which is significant number. 41 00:01:27,969 --> 00:01:28,869 And we awarded 42 00:01:29,170 --> 00:01:29,670 18 43 00:01:30,290 --> 00:01:32,709 1823 nursing degrees and certificates 44 00:01:33,409 --> 00:01:34,069 to men, 45 00:01:34,849 --> 00:01:36,069 in f y 46 00:01:36,450 --> 00:01:37,349 20 24. 47 00:01:38,369 --> 00:01:39,109 Over the 48 00:01:40,765 --> 00:01:41,825 past 4 past 3 years, 49 00:01:42,204 --> 00:01:43,424 Chamberlain has awarded 50 00:01:43,885 --> 00:01:47,245 over 45 100 nursing degrees and certificates to 51 00:01:47,245 --> 00:01:47,745 men. 52 00:01:48,125 --> 00:01:50,545 So it pretty significant. And then, 53 00:01:51,084 --> 00:01:54,380 that includes both pre and post licensure students. 54 00:01:54,380 --> 00:01:55,200 And at Walden, 55 00:01:55,980 --> 00:01:59,960 for post licensure students, they had over 211 56 00:01:59,980 --> 00:02:00,799 100 men 57 00:02:01,180 --> 00:02:03,200 enrolled in the same time period, 58 00:02:03,659 --> 00:02:05,120 and they awarded 729 59 00:02:05,740 --> 00:02:07,280 nursing degrees and certificates 60 00:02:08,344 --> 00:02:09,084 to men, 61 00:02:09,465 --> 00:02:11,405 in fiscal year 2024. 62 00:02:12,185 --> 00:02:14,125 So pretty significant. And 63 00:02:14,425 --> 00:02:16,905 one of our our objectives at Chamberlain is 64 00:02:16,905 --> 00:02:18,685 to continue to grow that number, 65 00:02:19,625 --> 00:02:20,125 because 66 00:02:20,810 --> 00:02:22,489 as the largest school of nursing in the 67 00:02:22,489 --> 00:02:25,209 country, when we do things, it makes an 68 00:02:25,209 --> 00:02:27,549 outsized impact, and we're hoping to have a 69 00:02:27,849 --> 00:02:30,409 truly outsized impact on the number of men 70 00:02:30,409 --> 00:02:31,069 in nursing. 71 00:02:32,090 --> 00:02:32,590 Excellent. 72 00:02:33,129 --> 00:02:35,324 Let's dive into that. What factors do you 73 00:02:35,324 --> 00:02:37,405 think are driving the increase of men in 74 00:02:37,405 --> 00:02:39,405 nursing, and how have you seen those trends 75 00:02:39,405 --> 00:02:40,544 evolve over the years? 76 00:02:41,564 --> 00:02:42,625 A couple of things. 77 00:02:43,004 --> 00:02:43,824 One is, 78 00:02:44,365 --> 00:02:46,305 you know, nursing has become 79 00:02:46,860 --> 00:02:47,840 a profession 80 00:02:48,379 --> 00:02:49,439 since the pandemic 81 00:02:50,060 --> 00:02:52,780 that people have really started to understand the 82 00:02:52,780 --> 00:02:53,280 importance 83 00:02:53,580 --> 00:02:54,400 of the role 84 00:02:54,699 --> 00:02:56,080 in a very different way. 85 00:02:56,539 --> 00:02:57,039 And 86 00:02:57,340 --> 00:03:00,185 while it's always been the case that nurses, 87 00:03:01,284 --> 00:03:03,705 men or women, nurses have to be 88 00:03:04,085 --> 00:03:04,985 very compassionate, 89 00:03:05,444 --> 00:03:07,465 very much a right brain, 90 00:03:08,004 --> 00:03:09,705 able to connect with people, 91 00:03:10,325 --> 00:03:12,504 able to develop therapeutic 92 00:03:12,805 --> 00:03:13,545 and and 93 00:03:14,139 --> 00:03:16,239 relate in, individual relationships 94 00:03:16,860 --> 00:03:17,599 with people 95 00:03:17,979 --> 00:03:19,120 of of all kinds, 96 00:03:19,739 --> 00:03:22,299 not just the people they know. And so 97 00:03:22,299 --> 00:03:24,479 that's really something everyone understands, 98 00:03:25,259 --> 00:03:27,784 but I don't think it was fully appreciated 99 00:03:27,844 --> 00:03:28,905 till the pandemic 100 00:03:29,764 --> 00:03:30,664 how much, 101 00:03:31,525 --> 00:03:34,405 nurses have to know the science and, you 102 00:03:34,405 --> 00:03:36,644 know, the critical judgment skills that they have 103 00:03:36,644 --> 00:03:39,384 and how much they work fairly independently 104 00:03:39,764 --> 00:03:40,905 and and making, 105 00:03:41,889 --> 00:03:42,789 important decisions 106 00:03:43,090 --> 00:03:45,269 in care that's provided. 107 00:03:45,810 --> 00:03:48,709 And so I think having that understanding that 108 00:03:49,169 --> 00:03:51,810 it's not just what people might connotate as 109 00:03:51,810 --> 00:03:54,289 a something women are really good at and 110 00:03:54,289 --> 00:03:56,865 men aren't, which, by the way, isn't true. 111 00:03:57,344 --> 00:03:59,284 But they they just that stereotype. 112 00:03:59,825 --> 00:04:00,564 And so 113 00:04:01,025 --> 00:04:03,205 I think the people that have really, 114 00:04:04,064 --> 00:04:06,944 stepped out into nursing full force have been 115 00:04:06,944 --> 00:04:08,564 people with military backgrounds. 116 00:04:09,025 --> 00:04:11,685 So for the last 20, 25 years, 117 00:04:12,064 --> 00:04:14,680 people who are men and women coming out 118 00:04:14,680 --> 00:04:17,319 of the service, who are either medics or 119 00:04:17,319 --> 00:04:17,720 were, 120 00:04:18,519 --> 00:04:19,019 already, 121 00:04:20,120 --> 00:04:21,100 registered nurses 122 00:04:21,720 --> 00:04:24,060 come into the civilian workforce. 123 00:04:24,839 --> 00:04:27,639 And those men that come in, the people 124 00:04:27,639 --> 00:04:28,785 see them and they understand, 125 00:04:30,464 --> 00:04:32,011 you know, what the impact of what they 126 00:04:32,011 --> 00:04:34,644 can do, looks like. The other group 127 00:04:34,944 --> 00:04:35,185 that really has, 128 00:04:36,625 --> 00:04:37,125 embraced 129 00:04:37,985 --> 00:04:40,625 nursing are are people that have been first 130 00:04:40,625 --> 00:04:41,125 responders. 131 00:04:42,144 --> 00:04:43,125 So which is 132 00:04:43,669 --> 00:04:46,230 men and women, but men who are first 133 00:04:46,230 --> 00:04:46,730 responders, 134 00:04:47,189 --> 00:04:48,169 who are on, 135 00:04:48,629 --> 00:04:52,069 ambulances, who work in emergency rooms, they see 136 00:04:52,069 --> 00:04:55,769 what nurses do. And so, again, they understand 137 00:04:56,470 --> 00:04:59,264 how much of an impact nurses make in 138 00:04:59,345 --> 00:05:02,405 all the all parts of providing health care. 139 00:05:03,905 --> 00:05:04,405 Excellent. 140 00:05:05,025 --> 00:05:06,465 What kind of trends are you seeing in 141 00:05:06,465 --> 00:05:08,785 the career path that these men take? Are 142 00:05:08,785 --> 00:05:09,444 they gravitating 143 00:05:09,905 --> 00:05:12,405 towards any kind of specific specialty or leadership 144 00:05:12,465 --> 00:05:15,120 roles? And how can the industry retain that 145 00:05:16,160 --> 00:05:16,660 talent? 146 00:05:17,040 --> 00:05:17,540 Typically, 147 00:05:18,399 --> 00:05:19,699 in the in the past, 148 00:05:20,399 --> 00:05:22,259 men have been more 149 00:05:22,720 --> 00:05:25,360 drawn to what I would call critical care. 150 00:05:25,360 --> 00:05:25,860 So, 151 00:05:26,800 --> 00:05:28,740 intensive care units, emergency 152 00:05:29,040 --> 00:05:29,939 rooms, perhaps 153 00:05:30,685 --> 00:05:33,185 perioperative or operating room settings. 154 00:05:34,125 --> 00:05:37,165 And that but that's continuing to change. For 155 00:05:37,165 --> 00:05:38,225 example, when I 156 00:05:38,685 --> 00:05:40,845 worked at the a children's hospital here in 157 00:05:40,845 --> 00:05:41,664 Kansas City, 158 00:05:41,964 --> 00:05:45,740 there were at least 50 men who were 159 00:05:45,740 --> 00:05:46,720 nurses there 160 00:05:47,180 --> 00:05:49,040 in many different specialties. 161 00:05:49,819 --> 00:05:52,319 So it it's broadening out. 162 00:05:52,779 --> 00:05:54,480 Also, men are 163 00:05:54,939 --> 00:05:57,899 more interest more likely to think about becoming 164 00:05:57,899 --> 00:05:58,305 a 165 00:05:58,865 --> 00:06:01,685 CRNA or a certified registered nurse anesthetist, 166 00:06:02,544 --> 00:06:03,285 which requires 167 00:06:03,664 --> 00:06:04,164 nursing 168 00:06:04,625 --> 00:06:06,164 experience as a 169 00:06:06,464 --> 00:06:08,884 in critical care for 2 years and then 170 00:06:09,345 --> 00:06:10,245 taking that, 171 00:06:10,625 --> 00:06:11,604 master's program. 172 00:06:12,699 --> 00:06:14,879 But the other thing that we really notice 173 00:06:15,020 --> 00:06:17,920 is men end up in leadership roles at, 174 00:06:18,060 --> 00:06:20,379 really, at a higher percentage than women. Now 175 00:06:20,379 --> 00:06:22,960 they're they only make up 10 to 12% 176 00:06:23,180 --> 00:06:24,334 of but 177 00:06:24,675 --> 00:06:25,175 they're 178 00:06:25,514 --> 00:06:28,414 disproportionately higher percentages in leadership. 179 00:06:29,675 --> 00:06:32,314 And there if you look at chief nursing 180 00:06:32,314 --> 00:06:34,095 officers across the country, 181 00:06:34,555 --> 00:06:37,194 there's a fair there's a higher proportion of 182 00:06:37,194 --> 00:06:38,254 men than just 10%. 183 00:06:39,819 --> 00:06:40,639 That's fascinating. 184 00:06:41,180 --> 00:06:43,819 What kind of unique barriers or challenges do 185 00:06:43,819 --> 00:06:46,459 these students or nurses face both in education 186 00:06:46,459 --> 00:06:47,279 and workforce? 187 00:06:48,860 --> 00:06:50,959 The first is really how they're 188 00:06:51,605 --> 00:06:54,425 viewed, how nursing is viewed, and there's still 189 00:06:54,564 --> 00:06:55,464 some of that 190 00:06:55,845 --> 00:06:58,964 belief out there that nursing is really just 191 00:06:58,964 --> 00:07:01,464 as a very female and or, 192 00:07:02,245 --> 00:07:02,745 subservient 193 00:07:03,720 --> 00:07:04,220 profession, 194 00:07:04,520 --> 00:07:06,439 and nothing could be further than the truth. 195 00:07:06,439 --> 00:07:08,060 You can ask physicians 196 00:07:08,520 --> 00:07:11,560 about the importance of nurses in all aspects 197 00:07:11,560 --> 00:07:14,699 of of health care, but particularly in the, 198 00:07:15,240 --> 00:07:18,404 inpatient setting. So there's still some of that, 199 00:07:18,964 --> 00:07:19,625 out there. 200 00:07:20,165 --> 00:07:22,024 And and so that's something 201 00:07:22,324 --> 00:07:24,644 people face when they say, oh, I'm gonna 202 00:07:24,805 --> 00:07:26,644 I'm going to nursing I'm a man, and 203 00:07:26,644 --> 00:07:29,225 I'm going to nursing school. So sometimes 204 00:07:29,605 --> 00:07:30,105 there's, 205 00:07:31,204 --> 00:07:34,185 hesitancy there, and and they feel 206 00:07:34,540 --> 00:07:35,680 that somehow that's, 207 00:07:36,220 --> 00:07:37,920 not a profession that men 208 00:07:38,379 --> 00:07:40,639 should or would be attracted to. 209 00:07:41,740 --> 00:07:44,240 The other barrier really is, 210 00:07:45,180 --> 00:07:47,759 patients and making sure patients understand 211 00:07:48,644 --> 00:07:52,264 that they're they're nurses, they're student nurses. And 212 00:07:52,725 --> 00:07:53,545 and, usually, 213 00:07:54,004 --> 00:07:54,504 those, 214 00:07:54,964 --> 00:07:55,464 misperceptions 215 00:07:56,004 --> 00:07:56,504 or 216 00:07:57,365 --> 00:07:57,865 misunderstandings 217 00:07:58,404 --> 00:08:01,044 about about men in nursing goes right away 218 00:08:01,044 --> 00:08:03,144 as soon as they start interacting with 219 00:08:03,529 --> 00:08:04,590 these men who 220 00:08:05,050 --> 00:08:06,590 are just extraordinary 221 00:08:07,210 --> 00:08:09,710 nursing students and become extraordinary 222 00:08:10,490 --> 00:08:12,730 nurses. Probably one of the most exciting things 223 00:08:12,730 --> 00:08:14,110 that happened for the profession 224 00:08:14,810 --> 00:08:16,569 is for for the first time, the 2 225 00:08:16,569 --> 00:08:17,069 largest, 226 00:08:17,555 --> 00:08:18,935 the 2 most influential 227 00:08:19,794 --> 00:08:21,414 nursing professional organizations 228 00:08:21,714 --> 00:08:23,954 in the last couple of years both had 229 00:08:23,954 --> 00:08:24,454 men 230 00:08:24,995 --> 00:08:27,954 as leaders for the first time. And so 231 00:08:27,954 --> 00:08:30,290 doctor Ernest Grant was the, 232 00:08:30,750 --> 00:08:32,690 president of the American Nurses Association, 233 00:08:33,629 --> 00:08:34,289 and doctor, 234 00:08:34,909 --> 00:08:35,889 Kenneth White 235 00:08:36,269 --> 00:08:39,409 was president of the American Academy of Nursing. 236 00:08:40,110 --> 00:08:42,610 And that, I think, really signaled 237 00:08:43,230 --> 00:08:43,889 the changes, 238 00:08:44,705 --> 00:08:46,245 you know, from a at the 239 00:08:46,625 --> 00:08:47,845 highest professional level, 240 00:08:48,625 --> 00:08:50,784 what it was that men were able to 241 00:08:50,784 --> 00:08:51,284 accomplish 242 00:08:52,065 --> 00:08:54,384 and that they were here to stay as 243 00:08:54,384 --> 00:08:56,085 leaders within our profession. 244 00:08:57,519 --> 00:08:58,420 So fascinating. 245 00:08:59,120 --> 00:09:01,279 What do you think health care organizations can 246 00:09:01,279 --> 00:09:03,040 do to help address some of those barriers 247 00:09:03,040 --> 00:09:03,700 and challenges? 248 00:09:05,040 --> 00:09:06,879 I think, Marie, one of the things they 249 00:09:06,879 --> 00:09:07,620 can do 250 00:09:08,000 --> 00:09:09,620 is highlight men 251 00:09:10,424 --> 00:09:13,164 that are in nursing roles within the organization. 252 00:09:14,184 --> 00:09:15,945 And you can do that in a variety 253 00:09:15,945 --> 00:09:17,884 of ways. You can do that through Daisy 254 00:09:18,424 --> 00:09:18,924 recognition 255 00:09:19,304 --> 00:09:20,845 awards. You can do that through 256 00:09:21,225 --> 00:09:24,845 just, you know, promoting stories within the organization, 257 00:09:25,225 --> 00:09:26,659 but also outside outside 258 00:09:27,279 --> 00:09:29,631 the organization. So when there's an opportunity to 259 00:09:29,631 --> 00:09:30,899 talk about a particular patient 260 00:09:32,079 --> 00:09:33,855 care issue, that that you seek out the 261 00:09:33,855 --> 00:09:37,459 men who are in nursing roles to be 262 00:09:37,559 --> 00:09:40,100 those spokespeople as much as possible. 263 00:09:40,639 --> 00:09:41,924 Again, just to normalize 264 00:09:42,485 --> 00:09:44,485 it. And I know that the it they 265 00:09:44,485 --> 00:09:45,464 also there's 266 00:09:46,565 --> 00:09:47,144 a association 267 00:09:47,845 --> 00:09:48,904 of men in nursing, 268 00:09:49,445 --> 00:09:51,304 and I think having a strong 269 00:09:51,845 --> 00:09:54,485 connection to that as a health system is 270 00:09:54,485 --> 00:09:54,985 really 271 00:09:55,809 --> 00:09:58,470 important. Again, it just shows that 272 00:09:58,929 --> 00:09:59,429 there's, 273 00:09:59,889 --> 00:10:00,389 a 274 00:10:01,009 --> 00:10:03,409 desire to have men come into the field. 275 00:10:03,409 --> 00:10:05,970 And, you know, the most important thing about 276 00:10:05,970 --> 00:10:07,110 all of this is 277 00:10:07,584 --> 00:10:10,084 there aren't, number 1, enough nurses. 278 00:10:10,705 --> 00:10:13,105 And if we only go to the usual 279 00:10:13,105 --> 00:10:13,605 suspects 280 00:10:14,065 --> 00:10:17,524 of people who have typically become registered nurses, 281 00:10:18,144 --> 00:10:20,565 we're not going to solve for that problem. 282 00:10:21,259 --> 00:10:23,500 If you think about the fact that we 283 00:10:23,500 --> 00:10:25,279 have 10 to 12% 284 00:10:25,820 --> 00:10:27,360 of nurses are men, 285 00:10:28,139 --> 00:10:30,559 if you increase that to 20% 286 00:10:30,940 --> 00:10:32,399 over a 5 year period, 287 00:10:33,019 --> 00:10:35,360 that alone would would dramatically 288 00:10:35,980 --> 00:10:37,305 impact for the positive, 289 00:10:37,685 --> 00:10:40,404 the shortage of nurses because they're net new. 290 00:10:40,404 --> 00:10:43,285 They're not the people who typically would have 291 00:10:43,285 --> 00:10:44,425 gone into nursing. 292 00:10:45,605 --> 00:10:46,105 Absolutely. 293 00:10:46,805 --> 00:10:48,325 And as we all know, the nursing shortage 294 00:10:48,325 --> 00:10:50,490 has been going on for a while now. 295 00:10:50,570 --> 00:10:52,649 So what do you think systems can do 296 00:10:52,649 --> 00:10:55,230 to become more attractive to men in nursing? 297 00:10:56,330 --> 00:10:59,289 I think the first part is really backing 298 00:10:59,289 --> 00:11:01,709 up from the the point of where people 299 00:11:02,409 --> 00:11:04,409 are thinking about what their next what their 300 00:11:04,409 --> 00:11:06,009 career is gonna be. And there's 2 real 301 00:11:06,009 --> 00:11:08,325 quick entry points that I think are important 302 00:11:08,325 --> 00:11:08,985 to consider. 303 00:11:09,445 --> 00:11:11,705 1 is high school students. And, 304 00:11:12,805 --> 00:11:14,024 you know, you don't 305 00:11:14,404 --> 00:11:14,904 attract 306 00:11:15,764 --> 00:11:16,264 men, 307 00:11:16,644 --> 00:11:18,904 young men who are in high school into 308 00:11:19,205 --> 00:11:20,504 nursing by sending 309 00:11:21,159 --> 00:11:21,980 a representative 310 00:11:22,679 --> 00:11:23,980 out from a school 311 00:11:24,360 --> 00:11:25,419 that is a, 312 00:11:25,799 --> 00:11:26,379 you know, 313 00:11:26,759 --> 00:11:29,100 22 year old young woman. 314 00:11:29,480 --> 00:11:31,159 You have to show that it's like anything 315 00:11:31,159 --> 00:11:32,539 else. You have to see yourself. 316 00:11:33,159 --> 00:11:35,615 And so the that that's the first step 317 00:11:35,615 --> 00:11:36,754 is having outreach 318 00:11:37,855 --> 00:11:39,075 where you're showing 319 00:11:40,095 --> 00:11:40,595 opportunities 320 00:11:41,054 --> 00:11:42,735 and they see it and they can see 321 00:11:42,735 --> 00:11:44,514 themselves doing that. 322 00:11:45,054 --> 00:11:47,634 The second is really in 2nd career. 323 00:11:48,254 --> 00:11:50,940 Oh, you know, I I've talked to enough 324 00:11:50,940 --> 00:11:53,500 of our men who are in our nursing 325 00:11:53,500 --> 00:11:54,000 programs 326 00:11:54,379 --> 00:11:56,460 who have said, you know, they get into 327 00:11:56,460 --> 00:11:57,600 what was a stereotypical 328 00:11:58,620 --> 00:11:59,120 education 329 00:11:59,659 --> 00:12:02,460 and career for a man, and they just 330 00:12:02,460 --> 00:12:04,174 found it kind of empty. 331 00:12:04,955 --> 00:12:07,294 They didn't feel like they were making connections 332 00:12:07,355 --> 00:12:09,455 with people. They weren't impacting 333 00:12:10,394 --> 00:12:12,654 society in the way that they had hoped, 334 00:12:13,035 --> 00:12:14,875 and they saw nursing as a way to 335 00:12:14,875 --> 00:12:15,535 do that. 336 00:12:16,279 --> 00:12:17,740 You know, when I think about, 337 00:12:18,360 --> 00:12:19,259 how people, 338 00:12:19,639 --> 00:12:21,500 men and women, end up in nursing, 339 00:12:22,120 --> 00:12:24,279 just overall, there are a couple of ways 340 00:12:24,279 --> 00:12:26,679 to look at it. So I cannot remember, 341 00:12:26,679 --> 00:12:29,019 and this is true, I can't remember 342 00:12:29,960 --> 00:12:30,779 being a person 343 00:12:31,414 --> 00:12:33,574 as a as a 3 or 4 year 344 00:12:33,574 --> 00:12:36,074 old. I can't remember ever not knowing 345 00:12:36,454 --> 00:12:38,615 that I wanted to be a nurse. So 346 00:12:38,615 --> 00:12:41,014 it's it's it's part of me. It's been 347 00:12:41,014 --> 00:12:42,454 a part of me. It was going to 348 00:12:42,454 --> 00:12:43,735 be a part of me. I either was 349 00:12:43,735 --> 00:12:45,814 going to be. I was in school or 350 00:12:45,814 --> 00:12:46,954 I became a nurse. 351 00:12:47,299 --> 00:12:50,019 So there was just for whatever reason that 352 00:12:50,019 --> 00:12:50,519 was 353 00:12:50,899 --> 00:12:52,360 I was attracted to that. 354 00:12:52,980 --> 00:12:55,059 Men come at it from usually a different 355 00:12:55,059 --> 00:12:55,559 place. 356 00:12:56,019 --> 00:12:59,320 It's it's later in life, as I mentioned, 357 00:12:59,875 --> 00:13:02,695 and it's it's more about the opportunities 358 00:13:03,154 --> 00:13:05,894 that they have, the potential leadership, 359 00:13:06,835 --> 00:13:08,215 potential that exists, 360 00:13:08,675 --> 00:13:11,014 and it's about making a difference 361 00:13:11,475 --> 00:13:13,715 in a in a different way. So it's 362 00:13:13,715 --> 00:13:16,259 not so much it you can't really go 363 00:13:16,259 --> 00:13:19,379 for for the it's a calling or it's 364 00:13:19,379 --> 00:13:22,360 just something you've always wanted to be. It's 365 00:13:22,819 --> 00:13:25,059 why now and why me and what is 366 00:13:25,059 --> 00:13:26,600 it that this has to offer? 367 00:13:27,715 --> 00:13:30,355 Excellent. This has been such an amazing and 368 00:13:30,355 --> 00:13:31,414 informative discussion. 369 00:13:31,715 --> 00:13:33,475 I wanna just thank you again for being 370 00:13:33,475 --> 00:13:35,014 on the podcast with me today. 371 00:13:35,875 --> 00:13:37,634 Of course. Thank you. And I and I 372 00:13:37,634 --> 00:13:41,120 look forward to watching the continued increase of 373 00:13:41,279 --> 00:13:43,600 men coming into our profession. It will only 374 00:13:43,600 --> 00:13:44,580 make us stronger.