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- This is Laura Dedo with the
Becker's Healthcare Podcast.

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I'm thrilled today to be
joined by Idina Seaver,

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the Chief Nursing Officer at
University Hospital in Ross

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Hart Hospital at the Ohio
State Wexner Medical Center.

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Dina, it's a pleasure to have
you on the podcast today.

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- Thanks, Laura. It's
a pleasure being here.

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- Now, I know we have a lot to talk about,

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and certainly I'm excited
to learn more about

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what you're doing at,
um, LTER Medical Center

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and some of the different
ways that, um, you know,

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you're really thinking about the future

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of growth and development.

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But before we dive into those questions,

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can you tell me a little bit more

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about yourself and your background?

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- Sure, yeah. I've, um,
been here at Ohio State.

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It's just over the two year mark.

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Um, uh, and I've been in the
chief nursing officer role

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here since I came.

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Um, prior to that I was the
chief Nurse executive, um,

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for a health system up in, um,

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northern Ohio, southern Michigan.

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Um, prior to that really was
just kind of moved up the ranks

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to, you know, through the
nursing leadership chain.

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And then, um, my background, um,

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actually was all in critical care nursing,

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pretty much all types of critical nurse,

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critical care nursing except
for pediatrics and burn.

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Um, so really had a lot
of opportunities, um,

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when I was there at the bedside
that I think really helped

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me to be able to grow and adapt

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and develop into, you
know, um, a, a leader.

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And so, um, it's been a great journey.

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- That's excellent to hear,

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and certainly, um, some
amazing opportunities it sounds

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like, for you over the
years now, what are some

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of the biggest issues that
you're following in healthcare?

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What's top of mind for you?

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- Yeah, you know, I think
right now, um, uh, a couple

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of the, um, big things that,

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that I know we're tackling
here at, um, at Ohio State, uh,

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first of all is just nurse leader burnout.

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Um, you know, I think we were

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so focused on our frontline
nurses, uh, post pandemic,

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which was critical and
important work to be to do.

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But I think, you know, when
we were focusing on that,

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we really moved a lot of the,
of that workload of, Hey,

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we've gotta work with our
frontline staff on wellness

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and, you know, wellbeing and all of that.

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Um, and, and really trying

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to mitigate the burnout in the front,

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in the front ranks, if you will.

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And so, you know, um,
we kind of forgot about

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that nursing leader,

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and I think now that's kind

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of coming back to kind of bite us.

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And, um, so we're really
trying to drill down and, and,

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and develop support, um, you
know, give them permission, um,

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you know, for wellness and
really ensure that they're,

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that they're acting on that.

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That's probably been
one of the bigger things

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that we've been focused
on here at Ohio State.

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Um, another issue that I know is one

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that many organizations are seeing and

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and dealing with is just, you
know, the workplace violence

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that's coming directly from the patient

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and visitors towards our nursing teams.

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Um, you know, how do we mitigate that?

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Um, and then I think, uh,
you know, the other one

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that I know I've had some
conversations with some

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of my colleagues around
the country is, you know,

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that clinical nurse specialist role.

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Um, you know, and, and
how do we develop that?

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How do we change that?

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Because so many of our,
uh, colleges of nursing,

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universities of nursing have
closed their clinical nurse

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specialist programs,

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and now I think we're starting to see that

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and, um, you know,
seeing the impact of that

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where we're not able to
refill those positions and,

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and so how are we gonna
pivot and and navigate that?

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So those are, those are
like three big things that,

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that we're kind of working
on here at Ohio State.

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- Wow. There's a lot there.

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I think, you know, so powerful to hear.

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You talk about some of the
different challenges you're still

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facing in terms of the
fallout from the pandemic

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and that burnout, um, you know,
climbing up the, the ranks

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as you're thinking through, you know,

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how can we really make sure
we're supporting not only the

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frontline leaders, but also, you know,

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leaders within the nursing,
um, chain as well in pipeline.

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Um, it, that's really fascinating.

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And then too, I,

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I know across the country it
seems like there's been an

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uptick in workplace violence for hospitals

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and health systems and
against healthcare workers.

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And so to, to really
have that front of mind

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and understand what, um,
nurses need today, I think is,

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is truly, um, you know,
helpful and, and important.

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And then finally is fascinating

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to hear about the clinical
nurse specialist role, um,

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and how you're navigating, um,
potentially, you know, trying

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to fill those responsibilities.

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I'm wondering, you know, when you look at,

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especially along those
lines in, in the programs

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and the ways that you're
designing, um, the workforce

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around these challenges,
what is really changing?

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Are you seeing, um, you know,

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and how are you, I guess,
able to continue to, um,

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have those responsibilities

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of the clinical nurse specialist filled,

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even if you may not have somebody

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who is specifically trained in
one of those closed programs?

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- Yeah. You know, it's really
been, um, interesting and,

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and I was so thankful when
I was connecting with some

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of my colleagues around
the country to hear

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that they're struggling
with the same thing

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because, you know, um, I think that,

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I think it's gonna be
important that our voices

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around the country are, are heard on this.

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Um, and, and that we partner
with our, um, academia, um,

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entities to, to figure out
how do we solve this, right?

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And, um, and,

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and so we're obviously the
CNS role really intersects in,

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in the patient care is
particularly around quality,

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around safety, and then around
education, both patient and,

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and some staff education.

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And, you know, that leaves a big gap

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for us when we don't have
that CNS role to really help,

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help fill and,

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and, you know, being a larger
academic medical center,

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that role is really central
to what, to what we do

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and how we operationalize a lot

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of our quality improvement programs, a lot

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of our safety improvement programs.

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And so it's been kind of a put
us, put us back on our heels,

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um, you know, to be transparent.

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And so I think, you know,
we're, we're partnering

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with our college of nursing
here at Ohio State who, um,

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you know, they're just
outstanding partners.

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I, I, I cannot say enough about them.

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Um, you know, but the reality
of it is, is that, that they,

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all of these programs were
closed for a reason, right?

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It, it wasn't just that
they were like, oh,

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we just think we're not
gonna teach CNS anymore.

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Um, it's been because the,
the, um, you know, the number

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of people going into those
programs has been so small

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and, you know, and maybe that's on us, um,

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where we haven't done
a good enough job, um,

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of really advocating for our staff

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to go into those programs.

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I, you know, I don't
know, hindsight's, um,

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not quite clear yet.

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Um, but, you know, I think
we've got some opportunities,

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like for example, um, you know, if,

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if we can't always fill the job with a CNS

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because there just isn't
that opportunity to do so

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because we don't have the
applicants, you know, um,

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what about like a DNP, um,
nurse, you know, a nurse

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that has gone through those
evidence-based practice, um,

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courses, and it really is all about

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that implementation science

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and, um, how

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to effectively implement
evidence-based practice at

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the point of clinical care.

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So I think we definitely
have some opportunities, um,

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you know, that we're looking at here and,

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and how we may need to pivot.

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Um, but I also think, you
know, coming together with some

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of our other partners across
the country to really begin

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to sit down and partner
with our academic partners

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to figure out, um, you know,
what can we do to, to maybe,

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um, fill this gap, um, that, that is,

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that is quickly growing, um, and, and,

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and how are we gonna approach that?

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Um, there certainly are some colleges

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that are still out there, um, you know,

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and maintain a CMS program.

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So I think, you know, that
door isn't completely shut,

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but I think there's lots of
things that we need to do, um,

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from an organizational
perspective to partner to, um,

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you know, help fill the
seats in those programs when

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those programs are there.

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And then, you know, in the meantime,

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I think we've gotta
figure out that stop gap.

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And, and for us here, you
know, one of the things

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that we've put on the table
is do we look at that nurse

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that has the DNP skillset, um,

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around evidence-based practice

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and implementation science
that we could maybe leverage

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until we can, um, really
figure out where we're gonna go

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with our academic partners
around the CNS education?

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- That's fascinating to hear.

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Thank you so much for diving
one bit deeper into, um,

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your thought process there

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and how you're really
looking into the future

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and, you know, speaking
about, looking ahead,

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what are you most excited about right

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now and what makes you nervous?

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- Yeah, so the thing that
I'm most excited about is,

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you know, we're starting to see
the Gen Z population really,

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um, you know, come into
our rank and file and, and,

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and that's so exciting.

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I think, um, you know, I'm looking forward

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to really leveraging, uh, the
skillsets of, of the Gen Zs

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and, and, and particularly,
you know, there's,

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I think there's so much
opportunity for us in healthcare

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to leverage technology,

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but I think that maybe,
you know, gen Xers and,

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and millennials, you know, we're like,

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yeah, okay, we can do that.

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Um, but I think our Gen Z um,
uh, ranks are really going

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to adopt the technology and
change the workflows for us.

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Um, and, and I'm really excited about that

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and really excited to partner
with, um, you know, our,

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our Gen Z nurses to, to really identify

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where, where do you see gaps?

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Where can we bring in technology and,

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and really begin to implement it

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and use it like it's intended to.

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I think historically, this
is just my experience over my

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career is, is that, you know, we, we tend

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to bring in technology,

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but maybe not implement it
to its full capacity and,

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and leave a whole bunch of
opportunity hanging out there.

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And I think with our Gen Z
nurses, I think we've got

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so much opportunity and,
and I'm excited about that

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because I see them being
early adopters at technology,

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and then not only that,
I see them taking us

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to the next level and possibly
advancing the technology

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with, with the vendors and
different partners that we have.

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So that's where I get really
excited to see what we can do

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to help offload some
of that, um, you know,

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that non-licensed required
work, um, for our teams,

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but then also, um, really
changing the workflows for, um,

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for our nurses, uh, and, and,

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and leveraging technology
to make that even better.

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- That's such a great point.

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And, you know, certainly,
um, it will be great to have

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that ability of those
skillsets on the team

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and, um, continue to maximize,
um, the potential I guess

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of, of bringing on technology

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and bringing on different ways
of thinking about the work

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and thinking about how you
can, um, really, you know, care

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for patients in a more strategic way.

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Um, mm-Hmm. <affirmative>,
I'm wondering too, you know,

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in speaking of how, um, you
know, healthcare is changing,

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what do you see as being
essential for leaders

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to be successful over the
next two to three years

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as this landscape continues to evolve?

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As you know, we continue to
see challenges in many respects

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with workforce and, and technology.

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Um, what do leaders need
in order to be successful?

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- Yeah, that's such a great question.

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And you know, I think, um,

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when I look at nursing
leadership now, um, you know,

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I'm seeing, uh, nurses
moving into leadership roles.

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Um, you know, much younger than what, what

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that happened when I was
still at the bedside, right?

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I mean, before you moved
into a nursing manager,

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nursing director role,
something like that, you know,

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you usually had a good number of years

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of experience before you did that.

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And today we're seeing nurses
move into leadership roles

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and younger and younger and, um, you know,

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and so one of the things I
think that is, has proven

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to be really stressful,

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and I think it would be
stressful for any nursing leader,

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not just because they're younger,

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but you know, I think, I think
it does add an element, um,

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of, of maybe, uh, barrier
that we have to overcome.

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You know, one of the biggest things is

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that I think we've gotta learn,
um, a coaching mentality.

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Now we've always talked about, hey,

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you've gotta be a good coach

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and, you know, really push your team.

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But I think it's changed a
little bit, you know, uh, and,

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and, and you just think
about this a little bit, um,

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and we see this in some of
the other, um, you know,

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disciplines or, or not,
not healthcare disciplines,

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but like in sports where, you
know, you see now maybe a,

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a person coming into a
college, um, athletic team

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and they're maybe only
there for a year or two,

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and then they're moving on to the pros

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and that, um, college coach has
to really get adept at then,

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you know, rebuilding that team quickly

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and then moving them forward.

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And I kind of liken that to

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what we're seeing today in
our nursing ranks where,

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you know, we see so often now
where as soon as new grads,

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um, are coming into,
um, our fold, you know,

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before we even get them
started on the floors, they're,

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they're saying things to us like, well,

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how do I move into a leadership role?

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Or how do I, you know, I
wanna go on to be A-C-R-N-A,

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or I want to go on to be an np

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and so I'm only gonna be
here for a year or two.

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And you think about that
impact to that team, right?

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That nursing leader, that
nurse manager is really having

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to recreate then that team constantly now.

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And that takes that, that, that
kind of a coaching mentality

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because you know,

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now you've gotta really stay
focused on building that team,

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building it quickly, and then, you know,

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still accomplishing all of the goals

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that you've got set forward, um, for you.

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And so I think that one of
the core foundational things

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that we're working on here
with our nurse leaders is,

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how do you be a coach and how do you,

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how do you not doing individual
coaching, which is important

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and you still need to do that,

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but how do you coach a team
specifically talking about,

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alright, I've got, you know,

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five new grads coming in this month.

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I know they're only gonna
be here for two years.

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How do I, how do I create
a successful team knowing

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that I only have them here for two years?

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- That's such a fascinating,
um, way to describe

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how the teams are evolving

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and certainly, um, interesting
to have that approach and,

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and to really get into

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what it takes from a leader
in order to be that coach.

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Um, and that mentality of, you know,

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constantly recreating the teams,

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constantly evolving and innovating.

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Dina, thank you so much for
joining us on the podcast today.

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This has been a really fun
and interesting conversation,

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and I look forward to
connecting with you again soon.