- This is Laura Dedo with the Becker's Healthcare Podcast.
I'm thrilled today to be joined by Idina Seaver,
the Chief Nursing Officer at University Hospital in Ross
Hart Hospital at the Ohio State Wexner Medical Center.
Dina, it's a pleasure to have you on the podcast today.
- Thanks, Laura. It's a pleasure being here.
- Now, I know we have a lot to talk about,
and certainly I'm excited to learn more about
what you're doing at, um, LTER Medical Center
and some of the different ways that, um, you know,
you're really thinking about the future
of growth and development.
But before we dive into those questions,
can you tell me a little bit more
about yourself and your background?
- Sure, yeah. I've, um, been here at Ohio State.
It's just over the two year mark.
Um, uh, and I've been in the chief nursing officer role
here since I came.
Um, prior to that I was the chief Nurse executive, um,
for a health system up in, um,
northern Ohio, southern Michigan.
Um, prior to that really was just kind of moved up the ranks
to, you know, through the nursing leadership chain.
And then, um, my background, um,
actually was all in critical care nursing,
pretty much all types of critical nurse,
critical care nursing except for pediatrics and burn.
Um, so really had a lot of opportunities, um,
when I was there at the bedside that I think really helped
me to be able to grow and adapt
and develop into, you know, um, a, a leader.
And so, um, it's been a great journey.
- That's excellent to hear,
and certainly, um, some amazing opportunities it sounds
like, for you over the years now, what are some
of the biggest issues that you're following in healthcare?
What's top of mind for you?
- Yeah, you know, I think right now, um, uh, a couple
of the, um, big things that,
that I know we're tackling here at, um, at Ohio State, uh,
first of all is just nurse leader burnout.
Um, you know, I think we were
so focused on our frontline nurses, uh, post pandemic,
which was critical and important work to be to do.
But I think, you know, when we were focusing on that,
we really moved a lot of the, of that workload of, Hey,
we've gotta work with our frontline staff on wellness
and, you know, wellbeing and all of that.
Um, and, and really trying
to mitigate the burnout in the front,
in the front ranks, if you will.
And so, you know, um, we kind of forgot about
that nursing leader,
and I think now that's kind
of coming back to kind of bite us.
And, um, so we're really trying to drill down and, and,
and develop support, um, you know, give them permission, um,
you know, for wellness and really ensure that they're,
that they're acting on that.
That's probably been one of the bigger things
that we've been focused on here at Ohio State.
Um, another issue that I know is one
that many organizations are seeing and
and dealing with is just, you know, the workplace violence
that's coming directly from the patient
and visitors towards our nursing teams.
Um, you know, how do we mitigate that?
Um, and then I think, uh, you know, the other one
that I know I've had some conversations with some
of my colleagues around the country is, you know,
that clinical nurse specialist role.
Um, you know, and, and how do we develop that?
How do we change that?
Because so many of our, uh, colleges of nursing,
universities of nursing have closed their clinical nurse
specialist programs,
and now I think we're starting to see that
and, um, you know, seeing the impact of that
where we're not able to refill those positions and,
and so how are we gonna pivot and and navigate that?
So those are, those are like three big things that,
that we're kind of working on here at Ohio State.
- Wow. There's a lot there.
I think, you know, so powerful to hear.
You talk about some of the different challenges you're still
facing in terms of the fallout from the pandemic
and that burnout, um, you know, climbing up the, the ranks
as you're thinking through, you know,
how can we really make sure we're supporting not only the
frontline leaders, but also, you know,
leaders within the nursing, um, chain as well in pipeline.
Um, it, that's really fascinating.
And then too, I,
I know across the country it seems like there's been an
uptick in workplace violence for hospitals
and health systems and against healthcare workers.
And so to, to really have that front of mind
and understand what, um, nurses need today, I think is,
is truly, um, you know, helpful and, and important.
And then finally is fascinating
to hear about the clinical nurse specialist role, um,
and how you're navigating, um, potentially, you know, trying
to fill those responsibilities.
I'm wondering, you know, when you look at,
especially along those lines in, in the programs
and the ways that you're designing, um, the workforce
around these challenges, what is really changing?
Are you seeing, um, you know,
and how are you, I guess, able to continue to, um,
have those responsibilities
of the clinical nurse specialist filled,
even if you may not have somebody
who is specifically trained in one of those closed programs?
- Yeah. You know, it's really been, um, interesting and,
and I was so thankful when I was connecting with some
of my colleagues around the country to hear
that they're struggling with the same thing
because, you know, um, I think that,
I think it's gonna be important that our voices
around the country are, are heard on this.
Um, and, and that we partner with our, um, academia, um,
entities to, to figure out how do we solve this, right?
And, um, and,
and so we're obviously the CNS role really intersects in,
in the patient care is particularly around quality,
around safety, and then around education, both patient and,
and some staff education.
And, you know, that leaves a big gap
for us when we don't have that CNS role to really help,
help fill and,
and, you know, being a larger academic medical center,
that role is really central to what, to what we do
and how we operationalize a lot
of our quality improvement programs, a lot
of our safety improvement programs.
And so it's been kind of a put us, put us back on our heels,
um, you know, to be transparent.
And so I think, you know, we're, we're partnering
with our college of nursing here at Ohio State who, um,
you know, they're just outstanding partners.
I, I, I cannot say enough about them.
Um, you know, but the reality of it is, is that, that they,
all of these programs were closed for a reason, right?
It, it wasn't just that they were like, oh,
we just think we're not gonna teach CNS anymore.
Um, it's been because the, the, um, you know, the number
of people going into those programs has been so small
and, you know, and maybe that's on us, um,
where we haven't done a good enough job, um,
of really advocating for our staff
to go into those programs.
I, you know, I don't know, hindsight's, um,
not quite clear yet.
Um, but, you know, I think we've got some opportunities,
like for example, um, you know, if,
if we can't always fill the job with a CNS
because there just isn't that opportunity to do so
because we don't have the applicants, you know, um,
what about like a DNP, um, nurse, you know, a nurse
that has gone through those evidence-based practice, um,
courses, and it really is all about
that implementation science
and, um, how
to effectively implement evidence-based practice at
the point of clinical care.
So I think we definitely have some opportunities, um,
you know, that we're looking at here and,
and how we may need to pivot.
Um, but I also think, you know, coming together with some
of our other partners across the country to really begin
to sit down and partner with our academic partners
to figure out, um, you know, what can we do to, to maybe,
um, fill this gap, um, that, that is,
that is quickly growing, um, and, and,
and how are we gonna approach that?
Um, there certainly are some colleges
that are still out there, um, you know,
and maintain a CMS program.
So I think, you know, that door isn't completely shut,
but I think there's lots of things that we need to do, um,
from an organizational perspective to partner to, um,
you know, help fill the seats in those programs when
those programs are there.
And then, you know, in the meantime,
I think we've gotta figure out that stop gap.
And, and for us here, you know, one of the things
that we've put on the table is do we look at that nurse
that has the DNP skillset, um,
around evidence-based practice
and implementation science that we could maybe leverage
until we can, um, really figure out where we're gonna go
with our academic partners around the CNS education?
- That's fascinating to hear.
Thank you so much for diving one bit deeper into, um,
your thought process there
and how you're really looking into the future
and, you know, speaking about, looking ahead,
what are you most excited about right
now and what makes you nervous?
- Yeah, so the thing that I'm most excited about is,
you know, we're starting to see the Gen Z population really,
um, you know, come into our rank and file and, and,
and that's so exciting.
I think, um, you know, I'm looking forward
to really leveraging, uh, the skillsets of, of the Gen Zs
and, and, and particularly, you know, there's,
I think there's so much opportunity for us in healthcare
to leverage technology,
but I think that maybe, you know, gen Xers and,
and millennials, you know, we're like,
yeah, okay, we can do that.
Um, but I think our Gen Z um, uh, ranks are really going
to adopt the technology and change the workflows for us.
Um, and, and I'm really excited about that
and really excited to partner with, um, you know, our,
our Gen Z nurses to, to really identify
where, where do you see gaps?
Where can we bring in technology and,
and really begin to implement it
and use it like it's intended to.
I think historically, this is just my experience over my
career is, is that, you know, we, we tend
to bring in technology,
but maybe not implement it to its full capacity and,
and leave a whole bunch of opportunity hanging out there.
And I think with our Gen Z nurses, I think we've got
so much opportunity and, and I'm excited about that
because I see them being early adopters at technology,
and then not only that, I see them taking us
to the next level and possibly advancing the technology
with, with the vendors and different partners that we have.
So that's where I get really excited to see what we can do
to help offload some of that, um, you know,
that non-licensed required work, um, for our teams,
but then also, um, really changing the workflows for, um,
for our nurses, uh, and, and,
and leveraging technology to make that even better.
- That's such a great point.
And, you know, certainly, um, it will be great to have
that ability of those skillsets on the team
and, um, continue to maximize, um, the potential I guess
of, of bringing on technology
and bringing on different ways of thinking about the work
and thinking about how you can, um, really, you know, care
for patients in a more strategic way.
Um, mm-Hmm. , I'm wondering too, you know,
in speaking of how, um, you know, healthcare is changing,
what do you see as being essential for leaders
to be successful over the next two to three years
as this landscape continues to evolve?
As you know, we continue to see challenges in many respects
with workforce and, and technology.
Um, what do leaders need in order to be successful?
- Yeah, that's such a great question.
And you know, I think, um,
when I look at nursing leadership now, um, you know,
I'm seeing, uh, nurses moving into leadership roles.
Um, you know, much younger than what, what
that happened when I was still at the bedside, right?
I mean, before you moved into a nursing manager,
nursing director role, something like that, you know,
you usually had a good number of years
of experience before you did that.
And today we're seeing nurses move into leadership roles
and younger and younger and, um, you know,
and so one of the things I think that is, has proven
to be really stressful,
and I think it would be stressful for any nursing leader,
not just because they're younger,
but you know, I think, I think it does add an element, um,
of, of maybe, uh, barrier that we have to overcome.
You know, one of the biggest things is
that I think we've gotta learn, um, a coaching mentality.
Now we've always talked about, hey,
you've gotta be a good coach
and, you know, really push your team.
But I think it's changed a little bit, you know, uh, and,
and, and you just think about this a little bit, um,
and we see this in some of the other, um, you know,
disciplines or, or not, not healthcare disciplines,
but like in sports where, you know, you see now maybe a,
a person coming into a college, um, athletic team
and they're maybe only there for a year or two,
and then they're moving on to the pros
and that, um, college coach has to really get adept at then,
you know, rebuilding that team quickly
and then moving them forward.
And I kind of liken that to
what we're seeing today in our nursing ranks where,
you know, we see so often now where as soon as new grads,
um, are coming into, um, our fold, you know,
before we even get them started on the floors, they're,
they're saying things to us like, well,
how do I move into a leadership role?
Or how do I, you know, I wanna go on to be A-C-R-N-A,
or I want to go on to be an np
and so I'm only gonna be here for a year or two.
And you think about that impact to that team, right?
That nursing leader, that nurse manager is really having
to recreate then that team constantly now.
And that takes that, that, that kind of a coaching mentality
because you know,
now you've gotta really stay focused on building that team,
building it quickly, and then, you know,
still accomplishing all of the goals
that you've got set forward, um, for you.
And so I think that one of the core foundational things
that we're working on here with our nurse leaders is,
how do you be a coach and how do you,
how do you not doing individual coaching, which is important
and you still need to do that,
but how do you coach a team specifically talking about,
alright, I've got, you know,
five new grads coming in this month.
I know they're only gonna be here for two years.
How do I, how do I create a successful team knowing
that I only have them here for two years?
- That's such a fascinating, um, way to describe
how the teams are evolving
and certainly, um, interesting to have that approach and,
and to really get into
what it takes from a leader in order to be that coach.
Um, and that mentality of, you know,
constantly recreating the teams,
constantly evolving and innovating.
Dina, thank you so much for joining us on the podcast today.
This has been a really fun and interesting conversation,
and I look forward to connecting with you again soon.