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Would you like to exchange best
practices and ideas to improve care,

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enhance operational efficiency,

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and address financial
challenges with your peers?

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Becker's Healthcare is facilitating these
conversations at their eighth annual

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health, it digital
health and R C M meeting.

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You can check your
eligibility for complimentary
attendance at the link in the

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description. We are excited
to welcome you in October.

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This is Laura Dedo with the
Becker's Healthcare Podcast.

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I'm thrilled today to be
joined by Dr. Matt Sullivan,

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chief Medical Information Officer of
Advocate Health Southeast Region. Matt,

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it's a pleasure to have you
on the podcast today. Thanks.

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For having me.

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Now, I know we have a lot to talk about.

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There are some really exciting things
happening in technology and healthcare

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right now, and especially what you're
doing at Advocate Health, you know,

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really being on the forefront
of, of some of the big trends.

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But before we dive into my questions,

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can you tell us a little bit more
about yourself and your background?

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Uh, sure. I'm, I'm an emer an emergency
physician originally by training and,

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and then, uh, went back through sort
of a super course like many and,

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and became very interested
in informatics. I'm, uh,

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board certified in informatics and I've
been working with our team here and in

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the southeast for a long time. And,
um, I'm really pleased that our,

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our merger with our advocate, Aurora
colleagues, has gone very well.

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And now we have a larger team
of great folks to work with.

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So that's sort of the, the here and now.

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Fantastic. Well, I, I'm glad that, um,

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you're with us and I'm looking
forward to our conversation.

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From your perspective,

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what do you really see as being some of
the key opportunities that are ahead as

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well as the headwinds you
have your eye on right now?

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Well, there's clearly
always key opportunities in,

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in smoothing over how our
electronic interfaces, um, are,

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are managed by both physicians and
patients and our care teams that provide

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care. So it's, um,

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it's really part of our daily life to
go in and think about how can we make

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things smoother for our providers,
smoother for our patients,

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make sure their experience is
excellent, and make sure that,

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that we can weed out as much of
the hassle factor, if you will, uh,

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for everybody that touches, uh,

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the electronic medical record
or any of the systems, uh,

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that we're responsible for. So that's,
that's obviously always the undercurrent.

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And then on top of that,
what's coming in technology is,

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obviously everyone's talking about, um,

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large language models in
AI and chat G P T and,

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and how those things interface in
the medical space is really, uh,

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it's almost like you can't go to
a conference without having a,

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a brief period to talk through that.

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There also are other
technologies out there that we,

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we've been looking at for years,
but haven't quite put in play.

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We haven't seen any really
great uptake yet. And,

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and we're always looking
for what that next topic is.

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Obviously with Covid, we
went to a virtual, uh,

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care model much faster than
I think we ever intended.

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And so there's a lot of new
technology in that virtual care space.

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There's a lot of technology where you
can bring virtual inside the hospital and

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use it, uh, remote, um, remote
monitoring, remote consultation, uh,

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remote nursing. There's,

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there's lots of things that we're
thinking about how to make, uh,

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our business model work so
that it's really seamless,

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really easy,

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that the work is a little
bit more tolerable and that
we can do more with less.

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Cuz clearly we've been struggling here.

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All of us in healthcare dealing with
nursing shortages and physician shortages

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will have been forecasted as well. So we,

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we've gotta think about how to do things
smarter and how to do things a little

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bit faster with less people,

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and that's where technology can
fill some of those gaps. So that's,

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that's where we're looking. Uh,

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and then there's always sort
of the one-off technologies
where something really,

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uh, innovative comes up that we're,
we're constantly scanning for,

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but for the most part, you, you
know, the, you ask about, uh,

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or what are the headwinds? Well,

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part of that is that this is a
financially difficult time for healthcare.

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Uh, certainly ha that's not new news
that's, that's been around for a while.

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How do we do things where
we're actually not, uh,

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hemorrhaging money into solutions
that don't return on investment?

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And how do we partner with, uh,

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other electronic vendors and companies
to deliver things that have a return on

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investment for both
parties? Um, how do we, uh,

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set up at risk contracts to
really be mindful of what,

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what are you actually achieving and how
are you taking care of patients better?

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What are the outcomes that we have to
have in order to justify the expense for

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our software and our,

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and our solutions that we bring
into the patient care arena?

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So those are kind of the hard
parts about the daily job,

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and I think those are not unique to
me, but certainly, uh, probably, uh,

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struggles with every one
of our healthcare systems.

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Absolutely. I think you're right.
I know a lot of organizations are,

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are really in the similar place as
you were mentioning in terms of, um,

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trying to make sure that, you
know, you're covering, uh, um,

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for any staffing shortages, um,

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tackling some financial challenges and
maybe fewer resources than you've had in

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the past, but really, um, you know,

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still needing to invest in the core
technologies that are making it possible,

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um,

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to deliver great care and really look to
the future for what healthcare is gonna

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look like. I really appreciate
you bringing up, um,

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especially the virtual care aspect of
it. I know that during the pandemic, um,

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that accelerator really quickly and,

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and definitely the technologies
continue to evolve. Do you see that, um,

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you're in a relatively good spot at the
moment in terms of some of the virtual

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care or, or are, is
the technology and, um,

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capabilities around that still changing
pretty quickly and advancing and moving

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forward, um, at, at a rapid pace?

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Well, I think we have what we need from
a technology perspective. You know,

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that's, that's been proven
that the technology works well.

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I think many of us are dealing with
virtual ICUs and virtual care pretty

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consistently across the board. The
question is, is how do we make it easy?

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How do we make it easy for patients?
How do we make it easy for, um,

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the physicians?

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How do we reach out to different
audiences that we otherwise wouldn't have

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touched?

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And really sort of expand and grow
that model while still maintaining some

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degree of reimbursement for that,

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because the technology and the people
who staff it and the positions and all

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the, all of that, all the, the
necessary parts are expensive.

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And, um, so I think a lot of people were,

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were really happy when
we extended some of the,

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the billing and coding, uh,
I don't know what to call,

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sort of changes that were brought about
via covid and that we've been able to

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persist there in some way to continue
to make this an opportunity or

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an option for patients.

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And it's about giving our patients
better options that makes it really

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appealing. Not everybody has time
to go to a brick and mortar visit,

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and in fact, many of the
times you may not need to, uh,

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particularly for simple things.

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And that then allows us to
frameshift what we can use our,

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our physical spaces for,

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and how do we then frameshift into
more higher acuity coming out of the

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hospital to places like hospital
at home where we could use virtual

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technology as well,

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remote patient monitoring and a whole
bunch of other tools that will allow us to

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take great care of patients, uh,

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in a place that's perhaps maybe not as
expensive and show that the outcomes

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that they have are as good or
better. And that's, I think,

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a really fun place to
be, uh, in this time.

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Absolutely. I love that. I, I think
that's great to hear and, and definitely,

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um, a lot of exciting things
ahead. Um, from your perspective,

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how do you think about growth and adding
value to the organization overall,

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especially in your unique place as C Mio?

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Well, that's a very broad question. Um,
I'll try my best to answer it. <laugh>.

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I think that the value of the C M I O
role for the organization is in trying to

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help people understand where technology
plays a role to help their business line

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grow or help their business
line become more efficient,

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and also help them understand
where technology doesn't

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need to be at play. It's an interesting
sort of concept to think about,

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but technology can help and hurt,

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and with the wrong workflows
or with the wrong arrangement,

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it can really be really
disadvantageous to certain people.

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And I think if you talk to any C M I O,

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I think most of us understand
that in those conversations,

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it becomes very clear that sometimes
adding more stuff to the computer

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isn't helpful and making it more
simplistic is helpful or making

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it more mobile depending on the
circumstance and trying to make sure that

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people aren't having to do duplicative
work or work that was already done,

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but just can't be seen in the right way.

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And so I think all of those
small steps add up to a

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tremendous value as it relates
to physician efficiency,

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nursing efficiency, and
all of the care team.

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And I think, I think people
understand that concept. Um,

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but as particularly in our,

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in our space where we have a large
footprint and large healthcare system,

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that's a lot of work. And
so there's a lot of, um,

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a lot of folks on our team that
are doing great work, and we,

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and we have to let them do
their, their thing without,

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there can't be one
<laugh>, it's not one cmi.

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There's a bunch of people
that are required because
those conversations happen

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all the time. And sometimes you, uh,

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are very intentional
about those conversations,

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and sometimes you just stumble across
them in the midst of other work rounding

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and talking to people and seeing
problems. And so I think that,

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you know, it's very hard
to quantify the value,

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but it's very easy to talk
about what the value is.

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And I think when you talk to people about
how we bring value to an organization,

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I think they understand it. And,
um, and that's nice. I mean,

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from my perspective, that's, it's a,
it's a great job. It's a fun thing to do,

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and I really enjoy talking
to all sorts of folks. Uh,

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and that's one of the reasons that I,

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I chose to do this is instead of just
doing one thing or one type of medicine,

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I now get to talk to lots of physicians
and lots of nurses that do lots of

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different things. And I'm
just reflecting on my own day.

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I'm like halfway through the day and I've
already touched four or five different

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groups of people and,

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and hopefully made a difference in helping
them solve some of their problems to

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make their lives easier and get rid
of some of the, the rough edges,

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if you will, to make
healthcare, uh, smooth,

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more efficient and more cost effective.

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Absolutely. I love that. I, I think that's
such a great description of how, um,

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you know,

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you really play such an important role
within the whole healthcare system and

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our, our, um, bridge between so many
different departments that are crucial to,

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to making things run well and making sure
patients get the care they need. Now,

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I know we've talked a little bit about
some of the challenges that healthcare

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organizations are facing
right now, and, um, you know,

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with limited resources
to boots, so, uh, um,

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for hospitals and health systems who
are looking to still, um, you know,

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invest their, their healthcare
resources wisely, where do you see,

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is it still important to make
investments both financial or, or, um,

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manpower, resources, et cetera? Um,
so that, you know, as time goes on,

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uh,

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you're prepared to continue to provide
great care to the community and really,

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um, be in the best position possible
to take advantage of the technology and

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capabilities as they evolve? Well.

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That's also a very broad question, so
I'll, I'll take a stab at portions of it.

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I think part of it is, um, I
think there's an acknowledgement,

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although everyone hates talking about it,

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but there's an acknowledgement that
security is a major issue in healthcare.

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And so I think any investment in
cybersecurity is, is just required. Um,

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it's unfortunate, um, and
I think all of us hate it,

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but the reality of today's environment
is that being held at ransom without

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the right electronic tools to take
the care of patients that frankly

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we've been taking care of now in this
manner for over a decade or more,

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it's really puts a strain on
healthcare and the healthcare systems.

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And so I think cybersecurity,

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even though maybe not the
sexiest of topics for some,

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it's really, it's, it's
quintessential to survival. And so,

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you know, putting those kind
of things in play are costly,

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and I think that's, that's
difficult, but is, um,

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one of the challenges that we
have in healthcare. And once,

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once you cover that base and you feel
like you've got some degree of security,

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then I think you can really start
looking at where can we make a difference

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in? And the first thing I think about
is not wasting a bunch of money.

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And so trying to rely
on some of your core,

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core value systems that you've implemented
your EMR as a primary driver PAC

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system, et cetera,

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and use those in every place that you
can and maximize the tools that you have,

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is really critical to not
wasting a bunch of money

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and hopefully if, if you're
a good steward in that way,

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there's a little bit left over to explore

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new things or improved ways to care
for patients using electronic tools.

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And that's why I have
a hard time with, um,

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going to any sort of
conference because there's a,

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there's a thousand things to look at and
it's incredibly difficult to figure out

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if any of them are gonna make a huge
difference in the care of patients.

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And so it becomes a game of whack-a-mole
who's got the shiniest object is really

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not the way to do business. And
so we're trying, you know, to,

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to change that mi mindset into,
uh, don't come with a solution,

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come to us with a problem
so that we can start,

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really start to think about
what is the problem to solve.

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And once you know what
the problem to solve is,

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then you can break that down and
understand how to apply the tools that you

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already own, um, how to change
the tools that you already own,

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how to use things in combination that
might give the outcome you're looking for,

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um,

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or whether you have to go out and look
for a different solution altogether and

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what that will cost. And those are the
hard questions. Really, really, the hard,

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hard part is not wasting a bunch
of money to try to solve something

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that either doesn't need to
be solved or is, you know,

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superfluous in some way as it relates
to the core mission of caring for

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patients. That's hard, hard to say.

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It makes you <laugh> makes my job
often the person that that says,

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no, we can't do that, or No, we really,

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the answer is we really shouldn't do that.

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We really need to take those resources
and put them somewhere else because there

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are lots of problems to be
solved in healthcare and
there are a lot of solutions

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there. And so I I think that's a,

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that's a fairly generic
answer and I apologize,

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but that's just sort of the mindset of,
of how you have to go about the day.

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Absolutely. And I, I think those are
really great points in terms of, um,

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you know,

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making sure that any kind of in investment
really is gonna have that return as

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much as possible in patient care or,
or for the health system overall,

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I think is so crucial and critical, um,

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to be so mindful about
that now more than ever.

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And certainly it seems like a lot of
organizations are trying to find that

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right, uh, mix or secret sauce.
And in definitely, you know,

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when you're talking about, um, having so
many different options in front of you,

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it, it, there's a lot out there.
It's a very noisy space. And so, um,

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as much as possible simplifying
it, it sounds like, um,

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I appreciate you talking through your
method and process for getting to that

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space.

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Yeah, I like that term. It's a noisy
space. I think that's absolutely true.

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And trying to get the signal to
noise ratio to be good is, uh,

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is really the secret sauce.

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Absolutely. Absolutely. And it'll be
fascinating to see how the field evolves.

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Um, from your perspective, if you were
looking ahead maybe one to two years, um,

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how do you see things evolving?

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I know you mentioned AI and
artificial intelligence, um,

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and some of the other ways that
technology has been evolved quickly, um,

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in the past even few months to, to
really make a difference in healthcare.

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Is that something that you
still have your eye on or,

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or how do you see the tech
technology in healthcare, uh,

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space and intersection changing
over the next few years?

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Well, I think it,

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it would be remiss to say that you ha
you could ignore artificial intelligence

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in some way. I don't think it's
something that you can ignore.

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You have to not necessarily embrace it,

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but you have to be a aware of it
and you have to build the right, uh,

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guardrails around it to be
used successfully. And again,

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as we've talked a little bit
about here today, you know,

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at what cost and for what function,

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if there's really a problem to solve
and AI helps solve that problem

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in a very efficient way, well
that's something that that's,

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that's something you'd wanna look closely
at. And we haven't seen, you know,

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a ton of that.

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There's been obviously some things in the
imaging space that are quite good. Um,

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and then, then you've gotta
then ask the hard question of,

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I recognize that this is
capable of doing this task.

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Why do we need to replace it with the
task that we're doing now? And that's,

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that's where it gets
challenging, right? I mean, it's,

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it's not easy for us to think
about replacing components

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of what, what nurses and physicians
have done in the past, um,

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because that's our job. We, we
don't wanna see it as a replacement,

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but at the same time, sort of steal from
another, you know, technology leader,

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uh, steal their quote,

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this is not gonna replace a is not
AI is not gonna replace positions,

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but physicians that use AI will definitely
replace physicians who don't. Uh,

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but then to what end, you know, are
we gonna be using AI to write notes?

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I don't know. Probably it's very
likely that that technology in,

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in combination with other technologies
will allow us to be much more efficient

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in our note taking in the future.

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And unburdening clinicians
with documentation would be a

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huge win for healthcare and
it would make the job fun.

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Uh, and, and I, I believe
the job still is fun,

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but I think it would make it more
fun for those people who are, uh,

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burdened by documentation.
In addition, um,

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you know, we, we have lots of
behind the scenes processes,

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whether it has to do
with prior authorization,

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00:19:15,580 --> 00:19:19,580
whether it has to do with just
simple notes, uh, to patients or,

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or authorizations for care or
anything that we can do to use AI

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to unburden that, that
documentation they'll use,

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that sits in the background.
That's hugely valuable because we,

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we have lots of people that spend
tons of time doing that kind of work.

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00:19:38,480 --> 00:19:39,740
And that's where I think, you know,

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remote process automation
where we just keep, you know,

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00:19:45,920 --> 00:19:48,400
repetitively doing the same
thing over and over and,

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00:19:48,900 --> 00:19:53,880
and automating some of that work
is probably where I see us really

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being successful here in
the next four to five years.

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00:19:58,090 --> 00:19:59,370
I know that that some of the,

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the chat G P T stuff is really
good and getting much better and

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has certainly taken the headlines,

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but I'm still not exactly
sure if we can quantify

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what the value is very easily. I think
there are places where we can and,

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00:20:15,430 --> 00:20:19,610
and we'll have to go roll our
sleeves up and figure that out. But,

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you know, using process automation to
get through some of the behind the scenes

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00:20:25,750 --> 00:20:29,980
stuff that, that people are doing now,
I think it's gonna be cost effective.

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00:20:30,190 --> 00:20:32,060
We'll, we'll have to see
how it plays out, but.

339
00:20:34,030 --> 00:20:36,350
Absolutely. That's such a great
point and definitely, you know,

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a lot of experimentation happening
with AI and in generative AI for sure.

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00:20:39,830 --> 00:20:41,870
And certainly, um, you know,

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exciting to see the spaces where it's
being helpful. And then too, I know,

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00:20:46,090 --> 00:20:49,860
you know, making sure that, as you
mentioned, um, moving forward, um,

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responsibly with <laugh> within
and ethically, I know, um,

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it's such a big concern. And we talked
about cybersecurity as well earlier,

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just being top of mind for so many
healthcare organizations as things evolve.

347
00:21:00,000 --> 00:21:03,700
So it'll be fascinating to see this and,
you know, continue the conversation,

348
00:21:04,040 --> 00:21:08,540
um, in October during the
Health IT Digital Health
and Revenue Cycle event. Um,

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I'm excited you'll be able
to be there and speaking,

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00:21:10,400 --> 00:21:12,180
and I'm looking forward
to meeting you in person.

351
00:21:13,240 --> 00:21:15,730
Well, thanks for having me on the
podcast. I really appreciate it.

352
00:21:20,890 --> 00:21:24,260
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top of organizations to keep learning,

353
00:21:24,450 --> 00:21:26,260
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354
00:21:26,650 --> 00:21:29,780
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355
00:21:29,840 --> 00:21:33,740
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356
00:21:34,250 --> 00:21:37,260
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357
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358
00:21:40,090 --> 00:21:44,860
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00:21:45,020 --> 00:21:47,140
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