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description. We are excited to welcome you in October.
This is Laura Dedo with the Becker's Healthcare Podcast.
I'm thrilled today to be joined by Dr. Matt Sullivan,
chief Medical Information Officer of Advocate Health Southeast Region. Matt,
it's a pleasure to have you on the podcast today. Thanks.
For having me.
Now, I know we have a lot to talk about.
There are some really exciting things happening in technology and healthcare
right now, and especially what you're doing at Advocate Health, you know,
really being on the forefront of, of some of the big trends.
But before we dive into my questions,
can you tell us a little bit more about yourself and your background?
Uh, sure. I'm, I'm an emer an emergency physician originally by training and,
and then, uh, went back through sort of a super course like many and,
and became very interested in informatics. I'm, uh,
board certified in informatics and I've been working with our team here and in
the southeast for a long time. And, um, I'm really pleased that our,
our merger with our advocate, Aurora colleagues, has gone very well.
And now we have a larger team of great folks to work with.
So that's sort of the, the here and now.
Fantastic. Well, I, I'm glad that, um,
you're with us and I'm looking forward to our conversation.
From your perspective,
what do you really see as being some of the key opportunities that are ahead as
well as the headwinds you have your eye on right now?
Well, there's clearly always key opportunities in,
in smoothing over how our electronic interfaces, um, are,
are managed by both physicians and patients and our care teams that provide
care. So it's, um,
it's really part of our daily life to go in and think about how can we make
things smoother for our providers, smoother for our patients,
make sure their experience is excellent, and make sure that,
that we can weed out as much of the hassle factor, if you will, uh,
for everybody that touches, uh,
the electronic medical record or any of the systems, uh,
that we're responsible for. So that's, that's obviously always the undercurrent.
And then on top of that, what's coming in technology is,
obviously everyone's talking about, um,
large language models in AI and chat G P T and,
and how those things interface in the medical space is really, uh,
it's almost like you can't go to a conference without having a,
a brief period to talk through that.
There also are other technologies out there that we,
we've been looking at for years, but haven't quite put in play.
We haven't seen any really great uptake yet. And,
and we're always looking for what that next topic is.
Obviously with Covid, we went to a virtual, uh,
care model much faster than I think we ever intended.
And so there's a lot of new technology in that virtual care space.
There's a lot of technology where you can bring virtual inside the hospital and
use it, uh, remote, um, remote monitoring, remote consultation, uh,
remote nursing. There's,
there's lots of things that we're thinking about how to make, uh,
our business model work so that it's really seamless,
really easy,
that the work is a little bit more tolerable and that we can do more with less.
Cuz clearly we've been struggling here.
All of us in healthcare dealing with nursing shortages and physician shortages
will have been forecasted as well. So we,
we've gotta think about how to do things smarter and how to do things a little
bit faster with less people,
and that's where technology can fill some of those gaps. So that's,
that's where we're looking. Uh,
and then there's always sort of the one-off technologies where something really,
uh, innovative comes up that we're, we're constantly scanning for,
but for the most part, you, you know, the, you ask about, uh,
or what are the headwinds? Well,
part of that is that this is a financially difficult time for healthcare.
Uh, certainly ha that's not new news that's, that's been around for a while.
How do we do things where we're actually not, uh,
hemorrhaging money into solutions that don't return on investment?
And how do we partner with, uh,
other electronic vendors and companies to deliver things that have a return on
investment for both parties? Um, how do we, uh,
set up at risk contracts to really be mindful of what,
what are you actually achieving and how are you taking care of patients better?
What are the outcomes that we have to have in order to justify the expense for
our software and our,
and our solutions that we bring into the patient care arena?
So those are kind of the hard parts about the daily job,
and I think those are not unique to me, but certainly, uh, probably, uh,
struggles with every one of our healthcare systems.
Absolutely. I think you're right. I know a lot of organizations are,
are really in the similar place as you were mentioning in terms of, um,
trying to make sure that, you know, you're covering, uh, um,
for any staffing shortages, um,
tackling some financial challenges and maybe fewer resources than you've had in
the past, but really, um, you know,
still needing to invest in the core technologies that are making it possible,
um,
to deliver great care and really look to the future for what healthcare is gonna
look like. I really appreciate you bringing up, um,
especially the virtual care aspect of it. I know that during the pandemic, um,
that accelerator really quickly and,
and definitely the technologies continue to evolve. Do you see that, um,
you're in a relatively good spot at the moment in terms of some of the virtual
care or, or are, is the technology and, um,
capabilities around that still changing pretty quickly and advancing and moving
forward, um, at, at a rapid pace?
Well, I think we have what we need from a technology perspective. You know,
that's, that's been proven that the technology works well.
I think many of us are dealing with virtual ICUs and virtual care pretty
consistently across the board. The question is, is how do we make it easy?
How do we make it easy for patients? How do we make it easy for, um,
the physicians?
How do we reach out to different audiences that we otherwise wouldn't have
touched?
And really sort of expand and grow that model while still maintaining some
degree of reimbursement for that,
because the technology and the people who staff it and the positions and all
the, all of that, all the, the necessary parts are expensive.
And, um, so I think a lot of people were,
were really happy when we extended some of the,
the billing and coding, uh, I don't know what to call,
sort of changes that were brought about via covid and that we've been able to
persist there in some way to continue to make this an opportunity or
an option for patients.
And it's about giving our patients better options that makes it really
appealing. Not everybody has time to go to a brick and mortar visit,
and in fact, many of the times you may not need to, uh,
particularly for simple things.
And that then allows us to frameshift what we can use our,
our physical spaces for,
and how do we then frameshift into more higher acuity coming out of the
hospital to places like hospital at home where we could use virtual
technology as well,
remote patient monitoring and a whole bunch of other tools that will allow us to
take great care of patients, uh,
in a place that's perhaps maybe not as expensive and show that the outcomes
that they have are as good or better. And that's, I think,
a really fun place to be, uh, in this time.
Absolutely. I love that. I, I think that's great to hear and, and definitely,
um, a lot of exciting things ahead. Um, from your perspective,
how do you think about growth and adding value to the organization overall,
especially in your unique place as C Mio?
Well, that's a very broad question. Um, I'll try my best to answer it. .
I think that the value of the C M I O role for the organization is in trying to
help people understand where technology plays a role to help their business line
grow or help their business line become more efficient,
and also help them understand where technology doesn't
need to be at play. It's an interesting sort of concept to think about,
but technology can help and hurt,
and with the wrong workflows or with the wrong arrangement,
it can really be really disadvantageous to certain people.
And I think if you talk to any C M I O,
I think most of us understand that in those conversations,
it becomes very clear that sometimes adding more stuff to the computer
isn't helpful and making it more simplistic is helpful or making
it more mobile depending on the circumstance and trying to make sure that
people aren't having to do duplicative work or work that was already done,
but just can't be seen in the right way.
And so I think all of those small steps add up to a
tremendous value as it relates to physician efficiency,
nursing efficiency, and all of the care team.
And I think, I think people understand that concept. Um,
but as particularly in our,
in our space where we have a large footprint and large healthcare system,
that's a lot of work. And so there's a lot of, um,
a lot of folks on our team that are doing great work, and we,
and we have to let them do their, their thing without,
there can't be one , it's not one cmi.
There's a bunch of people that are required because those conversations happen
all the time. And sometimes you, uh,
are very intentional about those conversations,
and sometimes you just stumble across them in the midst of other work rounding
and talking to people and seeing problems. And so I think that,
you know, it's very hard to quantify the value,
but it's very easy to talk about what the value is.
And I think when you talk to people about how we bring value to an organization,
I think they understand it. And, um, and that's nice. I mean,
from my perspective, that's, it's a, it's a great job. It's a fun thing to do,
and I really enjoy talking to all sorts of folks. Uh,
and that's one of the reasons that I,
I chose to do this is instead of just doing one thing or one type of medicine,
I now get to talk to lots of physicians and lots of nurses that do lots of
different things. And I'm just reflecting on my own day.
I'm like halfway through the day and I've already touched four or five different
groups of people and,
and hopefully made a difference in helping them solve some of their problems to
make their lives easier and get rid of some of the, the rough edges,
if you will, to make healthcare, uh, smooth,
more efficient and more cost effective.
Absolutely. I love that. I, I think that's such a great description of how, um,
you know,
you really play such an important role within the whole healthcare system and
our, our, um, bridge between so many different departments that are crucial to,
to making things run well and making sure patients get the care they need. Now,
I know we've talked a little bit about some of the challenges that healthcare
organizations are facing right now, and, um, you know,
with limited resources to boots, so, uh, um,
for hospitals and health systems who are looking to still, um, you know,
invest their, their healthcare resources wisely, where do you see,
is it still important to make investments both financial or, or, um,
manpower, resources, et cetera? Um, so that, you know, as time goes on,
uh,
you're prepared to continue to provide great care to the community and really,
um, be in the best position possible to take advantage of the technology and
capabilities as they evolve? Well.
That's also a very broad question, so I'll, I'll take a stab at portions of it.
I think part of it is, um, I think there's an acknowledgement,
although everyone hates talking about it,
but there's an acknowledgement that security is a major issue in healthcare.
And so I think any investment in cybersecurity is, is just required. Um,
it's unfortunate, um, and I think all of us hate it,
but the reality of today's environment is that being held at ransom without
the right electronic tools to take the care of patients that frankly
we've been taking care of now in this manner for over a decade or more,
it's really puts a strain on healthcare and the healthcare systems.
And so I think cybersecurity,
even though maybe not the sexiest of topics for some,
it's really, it's, it's quintessential to survival. And so,
you know, putting those kind of things in play are costly,
and I think that's, that's difficult, but is, um,
one of the challenges that we have in healthcare. And once,
once you cover that base and you feel like you've got some degree of security,
then I think you can really start looking at where can we make a difference
in? And the first thing I think about is not wasting a bunch of money.
And so trying to rely on some of your core,
core value systems that you've implemented your EMR as a primary driver PAC
system, et cetera,
and use those in every place that you can and maximize the tools that you have,
is really critical to not wasting a bunch of money
and hopefully if, if you're a good steward in that way,
there's a little bit left over to explore
new things or improved ways to care for patients using electronic tools.
And that's why I have a hard time with, um,
going to any sort of conference because there's a,
there's a thousand things to look at and it's incredibly difficult to figure out
if any of them are gonna make a huge difference in the care of patients.
And so it becomes a game of whack-a-mole who's got the shiniest object is really
not the way to do business. And so we're trying, you know, to,
to change that mi mindset into, uh, don't come with a solution,
come to us with a problem so that we can start,
really start to think about what is the problem to solve.
And once you know what the problem to solve is,
then you can break that down and understand how to apply the tools that you
already own, um, how to change the tools that you already own,
how to use things in combination that might give the outcome you're looking for,
um,
or whether you have to go out and look for a different solution altogether and
what that will cost. And those are the hard questions. Really, really, the hard,
hard part is not wasting a bunch of money to try to solve something
that either doesn't need to be solved or is, you know,
superfluous in some way as it relates to the core mission of caring for
patients. That's hard, hard to say.
It makes you makes my job often the person that that says,
no, we can't do that, or No, we really,
the answer is we really shouldn't do that.
We really need to take those resources and put them somewhere else because there
are lots of problems to be solved in healthcare and there are a lot of solutions
there. And so I I think that's a,
that's a fairly generic answer and I apologize,
but that's just sort of the mindset of, of how you have to go about the day.
Absolutely. And I, I think those are really great points in terms of, um,
you know,
making sure that any kind of in investment really is gonna have that return as
much as possible in patient care or, or for the health system overall,
I think is so crucial and critical, um,
to be so mindful about that now more than ever.
And certainly it seems like a lot of organizations are trying to find that
right, uh, mix or secret sauce. And in definitely, you know,
when you're talking about, um, having so many different options in front of you,
it, it, there's a lot out there. It's a very noisy space. And so, um,
as much as possible simplifying it, it sounds like, um,
I appreciate you talking through your method and process for getting to that
space.
Yeah, I like that term. It's a noisy space. I think that's absolutely true.
And trying to get the signal to noise ratio to be good is, uh,
is really the secret sauce.
Absolutely. Absolutely. And it'll be fascinating to see how the field evolves.
Um, from your perspective, if you were looking ahead maybe one to two years, um,
how do you see things evolving?
I know you mentioned AI and artificial intelligence, um,
and some of the other ways that technology has been evolved quickly, um,
in the past even few months to, to really make a difference in healthcare.
Is that something that you still have your eye on or,
or how do you see the tech technology in healthcare, uh,
space and intersection changing over the next few years?
Well, I think it,
it would be remiss to say that you ha you could ignore artificial intelligence
in some way. I don't think it's something that you can ignore.
You have to not necessarily embrace it,
but you have to be a aware of it and you have to build the right, uh,
guardrails around it to be used successfully. And again,
as we've talked a little bit about here today, you know,
at what cost and for what function,
if there's really a problem to solve and AI helps solve that problem
in a very efficient way, well that's something that that's,
that's something you'd wanna look closely at. And we haven't seen, you know,
a ton of that.
There's been obviously some things in the imaging space that are quite good. Um,
and then, then you've gotta then ask the hard question of,
I recognize that this is capable of doing this task.
Why do we need to replace it with the task that we're doing now? And that's,
that's where it gets challenging, right? I mean, it's,
it's not easy for us to think about replacing components
of what, what nurses and physicians have done in the past, um,
because that's our job. We, we don't wanna see it as a replacement,
but at the same time, sort of steal from another, you know, technology leader,
uh, steal their quote,
this is not gonna replace a is not AI is not gonna replace positions,
but physicians that use AI will definitely replace physicians who don't. Uh,
but then to what end, you know, are we gonna be using AI to write notes?
I don't know. Probably it's very likely that that technology in,
in combination with other technologies will allow us to be much more efficient
in our note taking in the future.
And unburdening clinicians with documentation would be a
huge win for healthcare and it would make the job fun.
Uh, and, and I, I believe the job still is fun,
but I think it would make it more fun for those people who are, uh,
burdened by documentation. In addition, um,
you know, we, we have lots of behind the scenes processes,
whether it has to do with prior authorization,
whether it has to do with just simple notes, uh, to patients or,
or authorizations for care or anything that we can do to use AI
to unburden that, that documentation they'll use,
that sits in the background. That's hugely valuable because we,
we have lots of people that spend tons of time doing that kind of work.
And that's where I think, you know,
remote process automation where we just keep, you know,
repetitively doing the same thing over and over and,
and automating some of that work is probably where I see us really
being successful here in the next four to five years.
I know that that some of the,
the chat G P T stuff is really good and getting much better and
has certainly taken the headlines,
but I'm still not exactly sure if we can quantify
what the value is very easily. I think there are places where we can and,
and we'll have to go roll our sleeves up and figure that out. But,
you know, using process automation to get through some of the behind the scenes
stuff that, that people are doing now, I think it's gonna be cost effective.
We'll, we'll have to see how it plays out, but.
Absolutely. That's such a great point and definitely, you know,
a lot of experimentation happening with AI and in generative AI for sure.
And certainly, um, you know,
exciting to see the spaces where it's being helpful. And then too, I know,
you know, making sure that, as you mentioned, um, moving forward, um,
responsibly with within and ethically, I know, um,
it's such a big concern. And we talked about cybersecurity as well earlier,
just being top of mind for so many healthcare organizations as things evolve.
So it'll be fascinating to see this and, you know, continue the conversation,
um, in October during the Health IT Digital Health and Revenue Cycle event. Um,
I'm excited you'll be able to be there and speaking,
and I'm looking forward to meeting you in person.
Well, thanks for having me on the podcast. I really appreciate it.
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