Dorna: It's not also easy to come from one
Dorna: country to another and to start over, to
Dorna: have no friends, have no family, have no
Dorna: support, have nothing to lean on, to start
Dorna: over. It's really challenging.
Joseph Liu: Welcome to the career relaunch podcast focused on
Joseph Liu: helping you successfully reinvent your career. My name
Joseph Liu: is Joseph Liu, and I'm here to help
Joseph Liu: you gain the clarity, confidence, and courage to
Joseph Liu: overcome the challenges of making changes to your
Joseph Liu: career so you can do more meaningful work
Joseph Liu: and enjoy your professional life. In each episode,
Joseph Liu: I feature people who have stepped off the
Joseph Liu: beaten path to reinvent their careers. We talk
Joseph Liu: through their unique personal journeys, the challenges they
Joseph Liu: overcame, and the lessons they learned along the
Joseph Liu: way to help you understand what it takes
Joseph Liu: to relaunch your own career. Today, my guest
Joseph Liu: will share her story of leaving Iran to
Joseph Liu: make multiple international moves as her career in
Joseph Liu: architecture and design evolved. We'll discuss the challenges
Joseph Liu: of penetrating new professional circles and the emotional
Joseph Liu: dynamics of running your own business. Afterwards, during
Joseph Liu: today's mental fuel, I'll share my thoughts on
Joseph Liu: what it takes to fit into a new
Joseph Liu: environment. Have you ever felt a bit out
Joseph Liu: of place in a job? Have you ever
Joseph Liu: been more like an outsider than an insider
Joseph Liu: at your company? Have you ever struggled to
Joseph Liu: fit in at your workplace? Today, I'm speaking
Joseph Liu: with Dorna Lakayan, an interior architect and furniture
Joseph Liu: designer with Persian and Norwegian roots who's made
Joseph Liu: a bit of a habit adapting to new
Joseph Liu: environments across her multiple international moves. She now
Joseph Liu: runs her own independent architectural firm, Studio La
Joseph Liu: Cayan, where she transforms houses into dream homes
Joseph Liu: and brand identities into memorable venues worldwide. Her
Joseph Liu: approach focuses on inhabitants being at the centerpiece
Joseph Liu: of a space, complementing habits and lifestyles through
Joseph Liu: mindful space design and visual harmony. Her philosophy
Joseph Liu: and approach center on the idea that a
Joseph Liu: good space creates space to feel, to think,
Joseph Liu: and to be you. Now, if her name
Joseph Liu: and voice sound familiar, it's because I featured
Joseph Liu: a voicemail she left for me in Episode
Joseph Liu: one zero two, where she shared a glimpse
Joseph Liu: into her own challenges around moving countries, changing
Joseph Liu: environments, and starting her own architectural firm. Her
Joseph Liu: honesty and transparency really struck me, and I
Joseph Liu: later reached out to her to see if
Joseph Liu: she might be willing to share more details
Joseph Liu: about her career journey on the show. If
Joseph Liu: you're someone out there who's ever had to
Joseph Liu: adapt to a new environment or deal with
Joseph Liu: the challenges of feeling like an outsider, I
Joseph Liu: think you'll find her perspectives to be very
Joseph Liu: relatable and helpful. You can get all the
Joseph Liu: show notes from today's conversation at career relaunch
Joseph Liu: dot net slash one zero three. Dorna spoke
Joseph Liu: with me from Amsterdam in the Netherlands. Hello,
Joseph Liu: Dorna. Welcome to the Career Relaunch podcast. It
Joseph Liu: is great to have you on the show.
Dorna: Hello, Josef. It's very nice to be here.
Dorna: Thank you for having me.
Joseph Liu: I am looking forward to talking with you
Joseph Liu: about a lot of your geographical transitions and
Joseph Liu: the ups and downs you've experienced along the
Joseph Liu: way, your recent decision to start your own
Joseph Liu: architectural firm. But I'd love to start by
Joseph Liu: just first getting a snapshot of your life
Joseph Liu: right now. What are you focused on both
Joseph Liu: personally and also professionally at this moment?
Dorna: For me, they are not really separated from
Dorna: each other. Maybe being a designer, I have
Dorna: always lived, eat, I don't know, breathe design
Dorna: because all of an attitude. So my life
Dorna: is designed and it's really intersectionally going forward
Dorna: together. But my focus these days mostly is,
Dorna: of course, establishing my life here in the
Dorna: new country, new city, finding new friends, new
Dorna: colleagues, I don't know, new collaborators, figuring out
Dorna: what's next.
Joseph Liu: You haven't always lived in Amsterdam. So let's
Joseph Liu: start at the beginning and move forward from
Joseph Liu: there. I'd like to actually go all the
Joseph Liu: way back to your childhood when you grew
Joseph Liu: up in Iran, which is where you're from.
Joseph Liu: What do you remember about your life in
Joseph Liu: Iran as a child?
Dorna: I think after coming to Europe, my biggest
Dorna: memory of Iran relates to the sun. So
Dorna: it was a very sunny part of the
Dorna: world, especially when you are a child. Maybe
Dorna: you are more curious, so you see more,
Dorna: you observe more. So I remember a lot
Dorna: of patterns, a lot of colors. We live
Dorna: in a part of the world that sun
Dorna: is available. So a lot of architecture and
Dorna: a lot of things are built around it.
Dorna: The shadows, the concept of actually shadowed spaces
Dorna: and sunny spaces, or light spaces. So there's
Dorna: a lot of things that, about the architecture.
Dorna: Of course, I remember, but then I come
Dorna: from a family that architecture was important or
Dorna: art was important. So maybe that's why most
Dorna: of my memories are around it as well.
Dorna: Or maybe I was just curious as a
Dorna: child to become an architect. I don't know.
Dorna: So
Joseph Liu: Were your parents also involved in some sort
Joseph Liu: of design or architectural industry?
Dorna: My dad is, civil engineer, and my mom
Dorna: is an artist or used to be. It
Dorna: was never her profession, but she was just
Dorna: into art. So she would paint and make
Dorna: a lot of things. As a child, I
Dorna: was a very, like, preserved child. I wouldn't
Dorna: show so much of my emotions. And to
Dorna: help me to show more as a child,
Dorna: my mom had taught me that I can
Dorna: create things and show things with creating stuff.
Dorna: So I had ended up, I don't know,
Dorna: suing and knitting and all of those little
Dorna: things that a child can do, painting and
Dorna: writing cards and notes and things like that.
Dorna: So that was my daily routine of creating.
Joseph Liu: In most cases on this show, we would
Joseph Liu: typically feature somebody who has a certain professional
Joseph Liu: background and then they switch sectors and they
Joseph Liu: maybe switch roles within a company. Now, in
Joseph Liu: your case, you from a very early start
Joseph Liu: wanted to become an architect. At what point
Joseph Liu: did you realize that and how did you
Joseph Liu: know you wanted to become an architect?
Dorna: Yeah. The thing is, I didn't have the
Dorna: title, so I didn't know what I want
Dorna: to become is an architect. That was the
Dorna: whole, but I knew that I love to
Dorna: create and I love to do things within
Dorna: the spaces. For many years, I had a
Dorna: title for myself. I called myself the psychologist
Dorna: of spaces because I really thought that I
Dorna: still believe that that you can change somebody's
Dorna: feelings, emotion, habits, a lot of things about
Dorna: how easy your life is by having a
Dorna: good space. And then as a child, I
Dorna: called myself psychologist at the space of course.
Dorna: But then my best friend's dad was an
Dorna: architect. And one evening I saw a book
Dorna: in their home, which is the drawing of,
Dorna: or a picture of the Frank Lloyd's, Wright's,
Dorna: waterfall house, the fountain house. And then when
Dorna: I saw that, this interaction between outside, inside
Dorna: was so interesting and how the waterfall had
Dorna: gone under that building and all of these
Dorna: beautiful things. So I went to his toilet
Dorna: and said, what should I do? What kind
Dorna: of profession should I have to be able
Dorna: to do this? And he said, you need
Dorna: to be an architect. That was the day
Dorna: I I realized I need to be an
Dorna: architect. You know?
Joseph Liu: For those people out there like me who
Joseph Liu: have never been to Iran, how would you
Joseph Liu: describe the overall professional scene in the city
Joseph Liu: where you grew up there?
Dorna: When I left Iran, I was quite young,
Dorna: so I was twenty four. So I can't
Dorna: really say much about the professional scene because
Dorna: I worked only a few years there. But
Dorna: generally speaking, architecture and civil engineering, which are
Dorna: the dominant jobs on the field, are quite
Dorna: masculine. So you don't see so many females
Dorna: on the we didn't. I don't know. Maybe
Dorna: now it has changed. All I remember was
Dorna: that you needed some sort of a support
Dorna: from somebody, but then that can also come
Dorna: from the fact that I was very young.
Dorna: So I needed mentors and people who would
Dorna: help me. Generally, Iran is a country full
Dorna: of architecture, and there's a big history and,
Dorna: like, a very rich history, about architecture in
Dorna: that part of the world. So you learn
Dorna: a lot, but it's not practiced that way,
Dorna: of course, anymore.
Joseph Liu: What ultimately led you to decide to leave
Joseph Liu: Iran behind?
Dorna: I don't think you make this decision in
Dorna: Iran. You kind of are growing with it,
Dorna: which is a kind of a sad part
Dorna: of the story because it's according to me,
Dorna: one of the best places to be. Due
Dorna: to the whole situation in that part, in
Dorna: the Middle East, with all the complication it
Dorna: has, I think as a child, if you
Dorna: have the ability to grow and learn and
Dorna: are curious enough to live, you are kind
Dorna: of encouraged to do it from a very
Dorna: young age. And that was the same for
Dorna: me. So I learned English when I was
Dorna: quite young. I started learning English at a
Dorna: very young age. And then before you know,
Dorna: when I felt like everything is settled and
Dorna: I am now an architect and I can
Dorna: take care of myself and everything, it was
Dorna: time to be curious and leave. So, you
Dorna: know, I cannot really say it was a
Dorna: decision made, but maybe it was, but it
Dorna: was also grown into me. So it's like
Dorna: a very complicated thing to say, but generally
Dorna: speaking comes out of curiosity to learn more
Dorna: and to see more. Because obviously I went
Dorna: to study. Yeah. That's how I left. The
Dorna: decision was not there if I'm going back
Dorna: or not.
Joseph Liu: What year was this?
Dorna: Two thousand and ten. That's when I left
Dorna: first time.
Joseph Liu: So this is not a political show, but
Joseph Liu: obviously at the time, things probably a bit
Joseph Liu: unstable, sanctions in place. And so I would
Joseph Liu: imagine
Dorna: And as a young person, like, of course,
Dorna: you have a future in front of you
Dorna: and you want to build and create, but
Dorna: you are also know that things are not
Dorna: going to get better and the opportunities are
Dorna: not going to rise. I already see a
Dorna: lot of friends who are there and like
Dorna: imagine the inflation rate and all of these
Dorna: things are affecting your carrier and your decisions
Dorna: and all of that. So taking risks is
Dorna: harder. Hope, maybe having a hopeful future is
Dorna: harder. In that sense, I think, of course,
Dorna: I don't regret that decision, but anyway, it's
Dorna: your hometown. So you have friends and family
Dorna: and memories. You will speak the language. It's
Dorna: a different thing.
Joseph Liu: Just to switch gears here and talk about
Joseph Liu: the next chapter of your career, where did
Joseph Liu: you go and how did you decide on
Joseph Liu: where to go next?
Dorna: First destination was, Malaysia, Kuala Lumpur, and that
Dorna: really just happened because I actually had got
Dorna: admission to study architecture in Oxford. And that
Dorna: day that I was supposed to get my
Dorna: ticket, I couldn't. And Oxford just said, oh,
Dorna: you're too late. And I was like, okay.
Dorna: Now what? And I had a friend who
Dorna: knew a few people in Malaysia, and he
Dorna: was just like, yeah. Why not go to
Dorna: Malaysia and see how it is? And I'm
Dorna: like, sure. Let's do that. And then I
Dorna: went to Malaysia, Kuala Lumpur. I went to
Dorna: the school, talked to a few people, liked
Dorna: it there, and I said, okay. I want
Dorna: to study more of architecture. And then I
Dorna: started actually interior architecture. And then after that,
Dorna: I worked a little bit. I worked at
Dorna: a school. I worked at an American company
Dorna: in design. And then while I was there,
Dorna: I decided that I don't want to stay
Dorna: there. It didn't feel like a place for
Dorna: me to want to build my future, like
Dorna: to call home. That's when I decided to
Dorna: move towards Europe and see what is Europe.
Joseph Liu: Now I know you mentioned you just kinda
Joseph Liu: had a friend and then you end up
Joseph Liu: moving over to Kuala Lumpur. But did you
Joseph Liu: have the means to just pick up and
Joseph Liu: just move to a new country? It seems
Joseph Liu: like a big leap to make. I guess
Joseph Liu: immigration wasn't an issue for you going into
Joseph Liu: Malaysia.
Dorna: When I went to Malaysia, first of all,
Dorna: I was not thinking that I'm immigrating, you
Dorna: know, in my head. I was going on
Dorna: this trip to see what is happening. And
Dorna: then I ended up staying. Like, I was
Dorna: not even a student at the time. Right.
Dorna: So I went there and I went to
Dorna: school and I liked the school and I
Dorna: stayed the whole thing. Generally speaking, I always
Dorna: have been told in my life that I'm
Dorna: a very brave person. And up until a
Dorna: few years ago, I kept saying like, no,
Dorna: what's brave about me? I have started to
Dorna: realize maybe I am brave or braver than
Dorna: I think.
Joseph Liu: Yeah.
Dorna: Now it's funny for me when I think
Dorna: about it, what was I thinking? Like twenty
Dorna: three year old and then you just go
Dorna: somewhere and you are like, oh, this is
Dorna: cool. I want to learn. Oh, my God.
Dorna: Look at these buildings. Because being in Iran,
Dorna: of course, you have all of these historical
Dorna: sites and old arch the vernacular, and I
Dorna: don't know, clay architecture and colors and everything.
Dorna: And I was in Kuala Lumpur with skyscrapers
Dorna: and new modern technologies. And I don't know,
Dorna: like architects from Australia, America, Europe, everybody was
Dorna: in Kuala Lumpur building something. So it was
Dorna: really a new scene of architecture. And I
Dorna: was like this little kid who was in
Dorna: a candy store. He's like, oh my God,
Dorna: look at this and look at that and
Dorna: look at this. So it was fun.
Joseph Liu: Before we talk about your next move, you
Joseph Liu: mentioned that you didn't quite see your future
Joseph Liu: there. What was it about being there that
Joseph Liu: led you to believe that you didn't envision
Joseph Liu: yourself being there long term?
Dorna: I think it was mostly about the fact
Dorna: that maybe this is too extreme to say
Dorna: it this way, but I didn't feel safe
Dorna: as a citizen. And finally, for me, I
Dorna: know this is not an impression of a
Dorna: lot of people. Iran was very safer and
Dorna: more convenient to be at. And of course,
Dorna: this can come from the fact that I
Dorna: was an immigrant. So it's a different level.
Dorna: You look different. Whatever you do, you look
Dorna: different. And then of course, we all know
Dorna: being a woman, it's also another minority a
Dorna: little bit in our business, which is architecture,
Dorna: real estate, things like that. So I didn't
Dorna: really see myself building what I envisioned because
Dorna: I think especially at that time, I was
Dorna: seeing myself. Like, I wanted to be a
Dorna: Frank Lloyd Wright. You know? That's how I
Dorna: started the whole journey, and that was not
Dorna: happening there. I couldn't see that. I still
Dorna: was lacking some sort of trust in my
Dorna: surrounding or some sort of trust in what
Dorna: I want to build, and that was not
Dorna: there for me yet. And that can also
Dorna: come from the fact that I was a
Dorna: junior in Malaysia. Right? It's like you just
Dorna: graduated architecture school. You are, like, super young
Dorna: and
Joseph Liu: Yeah.
Dorna: Exactly.
Joseph Liu: That's interesting. I do think that sometimes in
Joseph Liu: our careers and I consider myself quite a
Joseph Liu: logical left brained individual, but sometimes you can
Joseph Liu: just kind of feel that nothing is really
Joseph Liu: going to progress where you're at. You can
Joseph Liu: just kind of feel it. You can kind
Joseph Liu: of tell that there's not really a future
Joseph Liu: for you in this location or this organization
Joseph Liu: or this sector, and you have to do
Joseph Liu: something about it. Otherwise you'll just stagnate.
Dorna: Finally, now every day, I'm trying so hard
Dorna: to go back to that because I think
Dorna: the older I got, the more I saw,
Dorna: the more wisdom came, the more doubt in
Dorna: my instinct also came with it. And then
Dorna: when you are young, your instinct are talking
Dorna: really loud and clear and you trust them
Dorna: and you go for it. And that's what
Dorna: everybody calls young and crazy. But I really
Dorna: now hope I can become young and crazy
Dorna: every day in my life. That would be
Dorna: fantastic. Right.
Joseph Liu: So speaking about another potentially young and crazy
Joseph Liu: move, you decide to move to Europe. Where
Joseph Liu: did you end up going and why did
Joseph Liu: you choose that destination?
Dorna: I went from, Kuala Lumpur, the city of
Dorna: never ending summer to Oslo, the part of
Dorna: the world that is well known for its
Dorna: lack of sunlight. Oslo was practically to do
Dorna: my master's. My destination was Europe that I
Dorna: knew the way to come to Europe for
Dorna: me in my head was to do my
Dorna: master's. And the main focus was, of course,
Dorna: architecture and design. This
Joseph Liu: was general design.
Dorna: Yeah. General design. Exactly. But of course, within
Dorna: space. So that's what I wanted to do.
Dorna: And then I sent applications to a few
Dorna: universities among which National Academy of the Art
Dorna: in Oslo gave me admission. And at the
Dorna: time, I had to choose, of course, between
Dorna: these universities when I got because I got
Dorna: admission from a few. And the question was,
Dorna: which is my destination? Like and I didn't
Dorna: really choose it based on the geography, but
Dorna: based on the school. I did some research,
Dorna: and National Academy of Arts where I was
Dorna: admission to do the master in design had
Dorna: the best workshops available in Europe. And me
Dorna: coming from this background in architecture where I
Dorna: had all the theory in my pocket could
Dorna: really advantage, have, like, benefit from, being somewhere
Dorna: where I can actually be hands on and
Dorna: create with my hands, not only with my
Dorna: brain. And that opportunity was hundred percent available
Dorna: in Oslo. I took that chance and I
Dorna: went there, and I can say it was
Dorna: one of the best experiences. Those two years
Dorna: and that school, I did a lot of
Dorna: hands on work, and I learned a lot
Dorna: about construction.
Joseph Liu: So it sounds like from an educational standpoint,
Joseph Liu: this was a really positive move in your
Joseph Liu: life.
Dorna: A hundred percent.
Joseph Liu: How would you describe how this move felt
Joseph Liu: compared to your move going from Iran to
Joseph Liu: Malaysia? Was it the same? Is this one
Joseph Liu: of those quite modular skills being able to
Joseph Liu: make an international move? Was it easier? Was
Joseph Liu: it harder? How did it compare?
Dorna: Iran was different from Malaysia. Malaysia was different
Dorna: from Norway. You know, every country has its
Dorna: own ups and downs and, difficulties and challenges.
Dorna: So I can't really put that on scale.
Dorna: But, definitely, it was scarier for me to,
Dorna: this time, move. And one thing that was
Dorna: very apparent and immediately, tangible was difference in
Dorna: the culture. I came from a culture that
Dorna: was very giving and very social and very
Dorna: warm and open to a culture that was
Dorna: quite preserved, way colder than my hometown and
Dorna: things like that. So it was a challenge
Dorna: to figure out what's now or how. There
Dorna: are these unwritten rules, I said, or social,
Dorna: aspects that you have to learn or social
Dorna: codes that you have to crack. That was
Dorna: a challenge.
Joseph Liu: You've touched on this. And I wouldn't mind
Joseph Liu: going a little deeper into this because I
Joseph Liu: think it's a realistic consideration when you're moving
Joseph Liu: countries. You've talked about being a minority, both
Joseph Liu: first of all, as a female in a
Joseph Liu: quite male heavy industry, but also a minority
Joseph Liu: in the sense of being a minority as
Joseph Liu: an immigrant in Oslo. I was looking up
Joseph Liu: some stats on this and I was actually
Joseph Liu: surprised because I've been to Oslo before and
Joseph Liu: I had expected the immigration figures to be
Joseph Liu: lower, but immigrants make up about thirty five
Joseph Liu: percent of Oslo's population, give or take. And
Joseph Liu: as a comparison in London, which is where
Joseph Liu: I'm based, it's around the same. It's around
Joseph Liu: thirty eight percent. I would have expected a
Joseph Liu: slightly larger difference. New York City, it's about
Joseph Liu: thirty six percent. But at the same time,
Joseph Liu: regardless of whether it's thirty six percent or
Joseph Liu: half or ten percent, you still recognize that
Joseph Liu: you're an immigrant in a country and you
Joseph Liu: feel that. How much did that play into
Joseph Liu: your life there? Were there any issues or
Joseph Liu: challenges you faced either personally or professionally?
Dorna: I mean, hundred percent, they are issues and
Dorna: challenges. I mean, as I just said, like,
Dorna: there's this unwritten user manuals that you need
Dorna: to know, and nobody gives that user manual
Dorna: to you at the airport. You know, you
Dorna: just come in and you have to kind
Dorna: of crack the code yourself, and depends on
Dorna: how open you are to trying. That also
Dorna: takes a lot of courage. One aspect, of
Dorna: course, is the social aspect of the life
Dorna: in the Nordics, how you're gonna make new
Dorna: friends. Nordic people generally are more preserved in,
Dorna: letting people inside their inner circles. They are
Dorna: also like more concerned about social interactions. So
Dorna: it's harder to walk in Oslo and say
Dorna: hello, good morning to any stranger than it
Dorna: is in, anywhere else in the world. So
Dorna: those little things, especially for me coming from
Dorna: a culture where you see your neighbor and
Dorna: say, Hey, have a good day. You know,
Dorna: it was different things. So it was really
Dorna: challenging. I might say at times depressing. I
Dorna: was not used to this. I was not
Dorna: used to hiding and not saying anything and
Dorna: pretending that I don't see or things like
Dorna: that, so in social context. And in professional
Dorna: context, it even gets more challenging, especially after
Dorna: I graduated, because at school, everybody spoke English
Dorna: and it was a really international community and
Dorna: you could meet people and things. But then
Dorna: I started looking for jobs and the first
Dorna: advice I got was maybe you should consider
Dorna: changing your name. And I'm like, to do
Dorna: what? Because you come out of school and
Dorna: you think, oh, my skills matter, but somebody
Dorna: is telling me, no, your name matters. Of
Dorna: course, this is on debate, and also they
Dorna: are aware of the problem, and, they are
Dorna: addressing it in different channels and media. Then
Dorna: I realized, oh my god, I am an
Dorna: outsider.
Joseph Liu: Speaking of the professional world there then, what
Joseph Liu: were you doing at the time and what
Joseph Liu: sort of firm were you working for in
Joseph Liu: the architectural sector there after you had graduated
Joseph Liu: from the National Academy?
Dorna: I studied interior architecture and furniture design in
Dorna: the academy. So the plan was to do
Dorna: interior architecture, which is less also male dominant,
Dorna: industry. The thing is during my studies, I
Dorna: was an artist assistant. So I was helping
Dorna: an artist in Kielkochen to create sculptures and
Dorna: things like that. So she was very artistic,
Dorna: and, of course, I had the knowledge of
Dorna: construction, which together would be a really good
Dorna: teamwork. When I graduated, I still was working
Dorna: with hair. And I also found another part
Dorna: time job. I worked as a material scientist
Dorna: for, small product design company called Hoos. So
Dorna: my work was to research what new materials
Dorna: we can create to build products and furniture
Dorna: with, which was a very, very fun job.
Dorna: But, unfortunately, I could not keep any of
Dorna: these two if I wanted to stay in
Dorna: Oslo because I was, after all, an immigrant.
Dorna: And coming from the Middle East, I needed
Dorna: a visa. Ah. And for that, there were,
Dorna: rules and regulations. According to the rules, I
Dorna: needed a full time job or a job
Dorna: that was above eighty percent within my field
Dorna: of studies. So I ended up working as
Dorna: an interior architect in a firm that is
Dorna: one of the big firms in, Oslo, and
Dorna: I stayed there for a while. And then
Dorna: after three years in Metropolis, I quit. I
Dorna: went to Radius where I experienced a lot
Dorna: more fun working environment, and then Radius ended
Dorna: up to Studio La Cayan, which is, the
Dorna: small design studio I have today.
Joseph Liu: So let's talk about that transition. So it
Joseph Liu: sounds like you're working in various architectural capacities
Joseph Liu: in the interior architectural space Yeah. At Metropolis
Joseph Liu: and then eventually Radius Design. What were you
Joseph Liu: thinking at the time? Were you thinking you're
Joseph Liu: gonna just continue to work as an employee
Joseph Liu: at these companies? Or at what point did
Joseph Liu: you start to think, hey, I might wanna
Joseph Liu: do my own thing?
Dorna: Actually, I thought I will, work at Radius
Dorna: for a long time. That was in background
Dorna: when I started there. Like any other person,
Dorna: this corona event had a big impact on
Dorna: me as well, especially being in Oslo in
Dorna: winter, darkness, sitting home and working alone behind
Dorna: your computer with, no social interaction and things.
Dorna: You start thinking and rethinking your life a
Dorna: lot.
Joseph Liu: And this was twenty twenty to twenty twenty
Joseph Liu: one is when you were there.
Dorna: Yeah. Exactly. And then I had a chat
Dorna: with my best friend and we are walking
Dorna: and she said, but if you could do
Dorna: anything, like if you had the means to
Dorna: do anything you want to do, what would
Dorna: you do? And I said, oh, I wish
Dorna: then I would start my own studio. And
Dorna: then she's like, why don't you? And I'm
Dorna: like, well, I can't. And the whole thought
Dorna: began. So it was a corona wish list,
Dorna: let's say. Of course, I pursued it. I
Dorna: did some research. I saved money, you know,
Dorna: all of the ABCs of let's do this
Dorna: and let's be brave about it. And of
Dorna: course, I can fail or not.
Joseph Liu: What was appealing about the idea of starting
Joseph Liu: your own studio compared to working for an
Joseph Liu: established firm?
Dorna: The biggest thing was the freedom of having
Dorna: a vision. Everybody who is in design or
Dorna: architecture is also aware of the fact that,
Dorna: there are so many different signatures in design.
Dorna: And when you work in big firms, you
Dorna: kind of lose that, signature of your own.
Dorna: If you want to have that kind of
Dorna: vision and think in a very specific way
Dorna: or challenge some specific things, you need to
Dorna: either be very lucky or to kind of
Dorna: work with a very, very smaller team of
Dorna: people. And that's kind of what I decided
Dorna: to do, to change direction and work with
Dorna: a smaller team. It sounds like I'm one
Dorna: person, but in architecture, you are never one
Dorna: person. That's the whole thing. You always have
Dorna: a team. But of course, now I handpick
Dorna: that team.
Joseph Liu: And if you can go back in time
Joseph Liu: for a moment, Dorna, when you think back
Joseph Liu: to those early days of making that decision
Joseph Liu: to officially make the transition from employee to
Joseph Liu: entrepreneur, what excited you about it and what
Joseph Liu: scared you about branching off on your own?
Dorna: There were, of course, two things. One that,
Dorna: what if I can't what if I can't
Dorna: deliver? Because, okay, I knew I can do
Dorna: a project a to zed, and I know
Dorna: my abilities and everything and the skills, but
Dorna: I also knew it takes a lot to
Dorna: deliver a good project. And my colleagues at
Dorna: the firms I've been working with, they're working
Dorna: day and night to do that, and I
Dorna: was a part of that team doing it.
Dorna: And now I had to be that team
Dorna: myself, and then that was the scary part.
Dorna: And all of course, like anybody else, financial
Dorna: worries. I won't have a paycheck, but still
Dorna: have a rent and, you know, the whole
Dorna: bills to pay. So what if I cannot
Dorna: earn money? What would happen? But that is
Dorna: the day you learn that either you are
Dorna: brave to do it or you just have
Dorna: to leave it, you know? So I decided
Dorna: to just be brave and do it. Exciting?
Dorna: Oh, creating, I think, but that's always exciting
Dorna: for me. It doesn't really matter what team
Dorna: I am in. I think that the moment
Dorna: you tell me that there's a possibility that
Dorna: I can create, like, I'm above the skies
Dorna: all over. Creating is what drives the whole
Dorna: car.
Joseph Liu: Before we talk about some of the things
Joseph Liu: you've learned along the way of your career
Joseph Liu: journey, you did make one more change, which
Joseph Liu: is why you're not in Oslo doing this
Joseph Liu: interview and you're actually in Amsterdam. What prompted
Joseph Liu: you to make that move?
Dorna: Yes. I moved to Amsterdam. I think this
Dorna: decision was really about reinventing myself and not
Dorna: in as an architect only, but as a
Dorna: person. I spent a decade in Oslo, and
Dorna: I met fantastic people, and I built a
Dorna: lot of things there. And then, I also
Dorna: had a lot of opportunities to learn, I
Dorna: would say. But when I was successful a
Dorna: year ago there and I was looking at
Dorna: my future, I thought to myself, so is
Dorna: this it? Am I now happy and this
Dorna: is, like, where I want to be and
Dorna: who I want to be and what I
Dorna: want to have? I felt not. I felt
Dorna: I'm missing something. And then I started actually
Dorna: digging in and seeing what I want to
Dorna: do then about it. What is it that
Dorna: I want? I mean, of course, one thing
Dorna: also was about the weather conditions in Oslo.
Dorna: That's also another thing. And then that moment
Dorna: was the moment that I was like, okay.
Dorna: What where can I fit that part that
Dorna: is missing? And I needed a little bit
Dorna: of a bigger design theme and, braver design
Dorna: scene as well in my head, more open.
Dorna: That kinda led into Amsterdam.
Joseph Liu: I know that sometimes moving to a new
Joseph Liu: country can be a challenge, although you've now
Joseph Liu: tackled that a few times successfully. Yeah. Another
Joseph Liu: thing that can be a challenge is working
Joseph Liu: on your own. I know that you work
Joseph Liu: with a team, but starting your own business
Joseph Liu: on your own, having worked in already established
Joseph Liu: businesses, how has that transition been for you
Joseph Liu: to go from employee to business owner?
Dorna: Like, seriously, I'm not going to sugarcoat it.
Dorna: It's not easy.
Joseph Liu: What's the toughest thing about it?
Dorna: Some days, I feel like the toughest thing
Dorna: is waking up to nothing. There is no
Dorna: project. There is no potential project or potential
Dorna: collaborator or potential anything, but you still are
Dorna: so enthusiastic about doing it that you wake
Dorna: up and you hit something and you find
Dorna: something and you make a good day out
Dorna: of it. I think the challenge is to
Dorna: stay enthusiastic and that's easier said than done,
Dorna: seriously. I mean, now we talk about all
Dorna: of these moves and that I made and
Dorna: we call it successful, but it's not also
Dorna: easy to do that, to come from one
Dorna: country to another and to start over, to
Dorna: have no friend, have no family, have no
Dorna: support, have nothing to lean on, to start
Dorna: over, go out and be brave enough to
Dorna: just say, hey. My name is Dorna. You
Dorna: know? So and I want to be your
Dorna: friend or I want to work with you
Dorna: or any other sentence that comes after. Some
Dorna: cultures are more open. It makes it easier.
Dorna: Some cultures are not. It's really challenging to
Dorna: do it. And I cannot say that I'm
Dorna: successful, yet or not. I have a lot
Dorna: of successes. There is still a long, long,
Dorna: long way to go.
Joseph Liu: It does take a lot of energy to
Joseph Liu: start over and to rebuild, to reacclimate yourself
Joseph Liu: to a new culture and to find new
Joseph Liu: friends. How have you found the social scene
Joseph Liu: there? And also what I'm gonna describe as
Joseph Liu: the professional social scene where your ability to
Joseph Liu: network with other people in the industry, how
Joseph Liu: has that been for you there in Amsterdam?
Joseph Liu: How would you describe that scene as someone
Joseph Liu: from the outside?
Dorna: It is a very open scene. So it's
Dorna: a very welcoming scene, I would say, also.
Dorna: People look at my portfolio or my work
Dorna: or people talk to me. I get a
Dorna: lot of great comments about my work, which
Dorna: is very encouraging. But at the same time,
Dorna: of course, one goal is to be a
Dorna: part of a circle. One goal is to
Dorna: work in that circle. And to work in
Dorna: that circle, I still haven't figured out. It's
Dorna: like it's developing and it's getting better and
Dorna: better. I'm meeting more people, but to just
Dorna: go in and say hello, I have had
Dorna: a lot of success. They are really open
Dorna: to hear your story and to introduce you
Dorna: to the next person who might be interested
Dorna: in your story and things like like that.
Dorna: So that is developing, and I think it's
Dorna: just like a maze, like, or a puzzle.
Dorna: You have to just be patient and put
Dorna: more and more pieces to your future map.
Dorna: It's joyful, but it's also, as you said,
Dorna: tiring. It takes a lot of energy to
Dorna: find where to be, where to meet these
Dorna: people, to send a lot of emails. Not
Dorna: all of them reply. Like, not everybody reply.
Dorna: To call people and say, hey. I have
Dorna: sent you an email, by the way. All
Dorna: of those, things. It's really like, I say
Dorna: full more than a full time job just
Dorna: to socialize.
Joseph Liu: I know what you mean. I run my
Joseph Liu: own business, Dorna, as you know.
Dorna: And Yeah.
Joseph Liu: I think one of the most challenging things
Joseph Liu: that I sometimes struggle with is a lack
Joseph Liu: of a support system. I feel very alone
Joseph Liu: at times. And I'm wondering, do you feel
Joseph Liu: that? And, like, where do you turn for
Joseph Liu: support when you're feeling like your motivation isn't
Joseph Liu: where you want it to be?
Dorna: I listen to your podcast. But, seriously, I
Dorna: think that's what I can't because I also
Dorna: feel alone. I feel down. There are days
Dorna: that I'm like, oh my god. What did
Dorna: I do? Was it the right decision? There
Dorna: are days that I doubt myself. I doubt
Dorna: myself as a designer, you know, a lot
Dorna: of downs and downs because I always say
Dorna: we hear a lot of the stories of
Dorna: success. Yeah. In social media and here and
Dorna: there and there. Nobody tells what was it
Dorna: like to get there. And that's the part
Dorna: that is missing, and it's very difficult. There
Dorna: are down days, hundred percent, lonely days, hundred
Dorna: percent. And I haven't found really a good
Dorna: solution, but I mean it when I say
Dorna: I listen to other people who are going
Dorna: through the same thing or have done the
Dorna: same thing. And just that makes me feel
Dorna: like I'm not alone. People have done it,
Dorna: you know, Other people know.
Joseph Liu: Absolutely. I think just feeling like it's a
Joseph Liu: normal thing to go through can be comforting
Joseph Liu: and reassuring in and of itself.
Dorna: Hundred percent. Hundred percent.
Joseph Liu: The last thing I was hoping to talk
Joseph Liu: with you about was just a couple of
Joseph Liu: the lessons you've learned along the way of
Joseph Liu: your very interesting career change journey. And my
Joseph Liu: first question relates to what you alluded to
Joseph Liu: and have been talking about throughout this whole
Joseph Liu: conversation, which is going from being an outsider
Joseph Liu: to an insider, which is something that I
Joseph Liu: think we all struggle with. Not only when
Joseph Liu: you move to a different country, but also
Joseph Liu: even when you just shift into a new
Joseph Liu: industry or even are a new employee at
Joseph Liu: a new company. What have you learned about
Joseph Liu: what it takes to penetrate into these inner
Joseph Liu: circles?
Dorna: I think the biggest thing that I have
Dorna: learned, which I'm still learning, let's say, that
Dorna: way because it's hard to remember it all
Dorna: the time, is that nothing is personal. It's
Dorna: not about me that people don't reply their
Dorna: emails or it's not about me that today
Dorna: somebody doesn't smile or, you know, all of
Dorna: those things or somebody that doesn't look at
Dorna: your portfolio or somebody doesn't take your call
Dorna: or all of those things that happen every
Dorna: day. To stay positive is important, and I
Dorna: really know it's easier said than done because
Dorna: I struggle some days with it myself to
Dorna: remember that I have to stay positive, and
Dorna: it will get somewhere. But one has to
Dorna: just do it. To believe in yourself, as
Dorna: cliche as it is, to know that however
Dorna: it will end, you are investing in yourself.
Dorna: Even if not as a professional, as a
Dorna: person, this will definitely make something else out
Dorna: of you, and this is your journey. If
Dorna: you trust in that, something good will come
Dorna: out of it. I mean, one way or
Dorna: another, it has happened to me. And as
Dorna: I said, it is not all the starry
Dorna: nights. So
Joseph Liu: Right. Last question before we wrap up with
Joseph Liu: what you're focused on at this particular moment
Joseph Liu: and one of the projects that I find
Joseph Liu: very interesting, What have you learned about yourself
Joseph Liu: along the way of this career journey of
Joseph Liu: yours?
Dorna: Number one, I as I said, I think
Dorna: I learned I'm braver than I think. I
Dorna: generally think I learned to trust the fact
Dorna: that this shall pass, to trust that life
Dorna: goes on. And as long as I am
Dorna: enthusiastic about what I'm doing and I am
Dorna: excited about my future, opportunities will pop up.
Dorna: But I always thought I'm a very positive
Dorna: person, but being a positive person and having
Dorna: a drive to drive this positivity is two
Dorna: different things. And I could never think that
Dorna: I'm this strong, you know, that I can
Dorna: drive myself, regardless of anything and just believe
Dorna: in the fact that something good is out
Dorna: there. I think I learned that I can
Dorna: be way, way stronger and braver than I
Dorna: think, and I'm proud of that. It's like,
Dorna: Torna as a human being is better than
Dorna: I thought.
Joseph Liu: Well, that's a good place to wrap this
Joseph Liu: up, and I would like to just finish
Joseph Liu: up with something that you're focused on right
Joseph Liu: now. Can you tell me a little bit
Joseph Liu: more about, first of all, the type of
Joseph Liu: work that you're doing there at Studio Lacayane,
Joseph Liu: and I'd be especially interested to hear about
Joseph Liu: your YouTube series, Lacayane Loves.
Dorna: Loves. At the Studio Lacayane, we I am
Dorna: very much focused in, space design, and that
Dorna: means interior architecture practically in my field of
Dorna: work. So it's from space planning, making a
Dorna: good use of the space functionality, and then
Dorna: to, of course, aesthetics and moods and feels,
Dorna: materials, finishes, sometimes furniture design, all of those,
Dorna: lighting design. So whatever matters within the space
Dorna: that you use, it can be, office, it
Dorna: can be your residence, it can be a
Dorna: hotel, it can be a shop, doesn't really
Dorna: matter. As long as it is a space
Dorna: that is tangible, that is what we do
Dorna: or what I do. And the Lacanine Labs
Dorna: is something that I'm extremely excited about because,
Dorna: of course, I create a lot of things
Dorna: myself, but there's a lot of people in
Dorna: this world and there are a lot of
Dorna: fantastic designers and architects who are creating beautiful
Dorna: work. And I love them and I see
Dorna: them. And sometimes I just look at them
Dorna: and I admire their work and I'm like,
Dorna: see this beautiful thing they have created. And
Dorna: then I always felt like it's such a
Dorna: pity that I can never share it with
Dorna: other people. And I don't like this, trend
Dorna: on Instagram where people are just sharing other
Dorna: people's work and just saying that credit from
Dorna: this credit from that, you know?
Joseph Liu: Right. Yeah. I
Dorna: feel like there is more into it. There
Dorna: is, like, this beautiful thing that we can
Dorna: look at and talk about. And then I
Dorna: decided to create this, short series where I
Dorna: can very short, like in less than a
Dorna: minute, show some of the work of my
Dorna: fellow colleagues and say what I admire about
Dorna: them and then help other people maybe see
Dorna: it as well. Maybe they already are seeing
Dorna: it. I'm not sure, but if not, maybe
Dorna: I give them that eye or those glasses.
Joseph Liu: Very cool. I'm definitely gonna check that out
Joseph Liu: myself. If anybody who's listening to this wants
Joseph Liu: to learn more about you or the work
Joseph Liu: that you do, where can they go?
Dorna: Of course, I, lakayan. N o or dot
Dorna: com is available. You can check me out
Dorna: there, but I'm also on Instagram and on
Dorna: LinkedIn. Both are available on the website. So
Dorna: I would be happy to hear from people.
Dorna: And if they are in Amsterdam, I would
Dorna: be happy to have coffee.
Joseph Liu: Alright. Well, we'll definitely include all those handles
Joseph Liu: and links in the show notes and wanted
Joseph Liu: to thank you so much Dorna for telling
Joseph Liu: us more about your life as an architect
Joseph Liu: and your experiences of living in so many
Joseph Liu: places and also your recent decision to run
Joseph Liu: your own studio. So best of luck with
Joseph Liu: all your work. I would encourage people to
Joseph Liu: check out your design work on Instagram and
Joseph Liu: even just your banner image on LinkedIn, which
Joseph Liu: I told you when we first exchange messages,
Joseph Liu: isn't too far off from being my dream
Joseph Liu: home. So I may take you up at
Joseph Liu: some point on sketching out what my dream
Joseph Liu: home concept could be.
Dorna: It could be. Oh my God. That's going
Dorna: to be so much fun. I would love
Dorna: to do that.
Joseph Liu: Me too. One day.
Dorna: Thank you for wishing me luck. I really
Dorna: need love. I'm wishing luck for everyone who's
Dorna: listening because I know they are also some
Dorna: people probably who are starting or shifting in
Dorna: their careers. So good luck, everyone.
Joseph Liu: Well, thank you so much for coming on
Joseph Liu: to the show, Dorna.
Dorna: Of course. Pleasure.
Joseph Liu: So I hope you enjoyed hearing Dorna's perspectives
Joseph Liu: on the balance between instincts and logic, the
Joseph Liu: challenges of shifting countries, and the emotional dynamics
Joseph Liu: of working on your own. Now it's time
Joseph Liu: to wrap up with today's mental fuel where
Joseph Liu: I'm gonna share my own experiences adapting to
Joseph Liu: new environments. Before we get to today's mental
Joseph Liu: fuel, I wanted to thank Brand Yourself for
Joseph Liu: supporting this episode of the Career Relaunch Podcast.
Joseph Liu: Brand Yourself is an online reputation management service
Joseph Liu: that helps you control what people find when
Joseph Liu: they search for you online. To optimize, protect,
Joseph Liu: and improve your online presence, visit brand yourself
Joseph Liu: dot com and use promo code relaunch to
Joseph Liu: get fifty percent off a premium membership. This
Joseph Liu: is the part of the show called Mental
Joseph Liu: Fuel where I finish the show with a
Joseph Liu: brief personal story related to one of the
Joseph Liu: topics we covered today and wrap up with
Joseph Liu: a simple challenge to help you move forward
Joseph Liu: with your own career goals. So for today's
Joseph Liu: Mental Fuel, I want to pick up on
Joseph Liu: a theme that's come up today with Dorna
Joseph Liu: around adapting to new environments, navigating a different
Joseph Liu: culture, penetrating into seemingly impenetrable inner circles, or
Joseph Liu: just figuring out a way to fit in.
Joseph Liu: And in my own life and career, I
Joseph Liu: can definitely relate to many of the sentiments
Joseph Liu: Dorna shared both personally and professionally. In many
Joseph Liu: ways, for much of my life, I've felt
Joseph Liu: a bit like an outsider or at best
Joseph Liu: someone at the intersection of two very different
Joseph Liu: worlds never quite fully fitting into either. Just
Joseph Liu: to go way back in time, although I
Joseph Liu: was born in a small town in West
Joseph Liu: Virginia, my parents immigrated to the United States
Joseph Liu: from Taiwan only a few years before I
Joseph Liu: was born. And aside from my sister, I
Joseph Liu: was the only non caucasian student in my
Joseph Liu: entire elementary school. We were the only Asians
Joseph Liu: in our entire neighborhood. And when we later
Joseph Liu: moved to Missouri, I was one of only
Joseph Liu: a few minorities I could count on one
Joseph Liu: single hand amongst the over sixteen hundred students
Joseph Liu: in my high school there. On the one
Joseph Liu: hand, I grew up in a fully Taiwanese
Joseph Liu: household, eating noodles and dumplings and putting soy
Joseph Liu: sauce on pretty much everything I ate, taking
Joseph Liu: my shoes off when I entered any house,
Joseph Liu: and feeling rather soft spoken, borderline shy. But
Joseph Liu: on the other hand, when I stepped outside
Joseph Liu: of my house, the school cafeteria was full
Joseph Liu: of burgers, chili con carne, and nachos. My
Joseph Liu: friends never took their shoes off when entering
Joseph Liu: their houses. And the social culture, while very
Joseph Liu: friendly, also felt very extroverted and loud. While
Joseph Liu: I didn't necessarily feel like an outsider per
Joseph Liu: se because this is really all I knew
Joseph Liu: growing up, I certainly didn't feel like an
Joseph Liu: insider. And on the flip side, when I
Joseph Liu: visited Taiwan as a child and even now,
Joseph Liu: I feel much more American than Taiwanese. When
Joseph Liu: Taiwanese people see me there, including my extended
Joseph Liu: family, it's not uncommon for some of them
Joseph Liu: to comment on my appearance or my behavior
Joseph Liu: saying I look and behave like an outsider.
Joseph Liu: Interestingly, for much of my career, I also
Joseph Liu: often felt like an outlier. In medical school,
Joseph Liu: I never fully felt like I fit in
Joseph Liu: because of my creative and business interests. When
Joseph Liu: I eventually moved into the corporate world, I
Joseph Liu: felt like a bit of an outsider because
Joseph Liu: of my more science based education. When I
Joseph Liu: later worked in a large corporation in the
Joseph Liu: Bay Area. I'll never forget in one of
Joseph Liu: the retail trainings when they asked everyone in
Joseph Liu: my cohort to raise our hands if we
Joseph Liu: regularly bought clothes at Walmart, I was the
Joseph Liu: only one who raised my hand, probably because
Joseph Liu: I was one of the few employees there
Joseph Liu: who had come from a more blue collar
Joseph Liu: background. And of course, when I moved to
Joseph Liu: the UK in my marketing jobs, I was
Joseph Liu: one of the only non Brits on my
Joseph Liu: team. Now I never really minded being an
Joseph Liu: outlier. I feel like a big part of
Joseph Liu: who I am is driven by the diverse
Joseph Liu: experiences I've had culturally, geographically, and professionally. But
Joseph Liu: I'd be lying if I said I didn't
Joseph Liu: occasionally catch myself envying those people out there
Joseph Liu: who just followed more linear paths where their
Joseph Liu: environments were more stable, where they more naturally
Joseph Liu: fit in, or where they didn't have to
Joseph Liu: try and figure out the culture because that's
Joseph Liu: been their culture for so long. What I
Joseph Liu: try to do when I'm struggling to fit
Joseph Liu: in or if I'm feeling ungrounded is to
Joseph Liu: latch onto points of stability. I try to
Joseph Liu: do things that create familiarity and comfort when
Joseph Liu: I find myself in unfamiliar, uncomfortable environments. And
Joseph Liu: I anchor onto things that have consistently allowed
Joseph Liu: me to feel grounded in three ways. First,
Joseph Liu: finding even one person who embodies the characteristics
Joseph Liu: of people I've gravitated toward and felt comfortable
Joseph Liu: around in my life. People who are kind,
Joseph Liu: honest, self reflective, proactive, and pleasant conversationalists. I
Joseph Liu: try to spend more time with these types
Joseph Liu: of people I click with. And sometimes it
Joseph Liu: just takes one person to provide me with
Joseph Liu: a sense of belonging. Second, engaging in activities
Joseph Liu: that bring me joy, feel like me, and
Joseph Liu: are a big part of who I am.
Joseph Liu: These are typically things like running and exercise,
Joseph Liu: browsing through a food market, which is something
Joseph Liu: I've always enjoyed, or hobbies like photography. And
Joseph Liu: finally, since this is a podcast focused on
Joseph Liu: career change in professional environments, whenever I've made
Joseph Liu: a pivot into a new role, organization, or
Joseph Liu: location where a completely different and new skill
Joseph Liu: set or scope of knowledge is required, I've
Joseph Liu: tried to lean into transferable skills that have
Joseph Liu: served me well in my career to help
Joseph Liu: me feel like less of an imposter. These
Joseph Liu: include things like my branding and marketing functional
Joseph Liu: expertise, or even soft skills like being collaborative,
Joseph Liu: respectful, and organized, or these days my comfort
Joseph Liu: with public speaking. If you find yourself in
Joseph Liu: the midst of a career or life transition
Joseph Liu: that's left you feeling a bit out of
Joseph Liu: place, is there an anchor point you could
Joseph Liu: identify from your own life that's consistently allowed
Joseph Liu: you to recalibrate and reground yourself effectively? I
Joseph Liu: get that you may never feel truly at
Joseph Liu: home when you're in a new environment. To
Joseph Liu: this day, even after being in the UK
Joseph Liu: for nearly fifteen years, I still don't always
Joseph Liu: feel like it's home. I still struggle with
Joseph Liu: the social dynamics here. I still struggle to
Joseph Liu: make good friends. And I still feel like
Joseph Liu: many of my strongest, most effortless bonds and
Joseph Liu: connections are those I made in the US
Joseph Liu: before moving here. But sometimes, especially when you're
Joseph Liu: feeling like you're in an environment that is
Joseph Liu: uncertain, unfamiliar, or unsettling, sometimes all it takes
Joseph Liu: are one or two points of familiarity to
Joseph Liu: stabilize you so you can feel grounded enough
Joseph Liu: to focus on the task at hand, to
Joseph Liu: keep moving forward, and to address the key
Joseph Liu: priorities in your career that really matter. This
Joseph Liu: takes me to a quote from Albert Einstein.
Joseph Liu: In the midst of difficulty lies opportunity. Find
Joseph Liu: your center and use that as your anchor.
Joseph Liu: So my challenge to you, if you're feeling
Joseph Liu: like your career is in a state of
Joseph Liu: upheaval, uncertainty, or unfamiliarity, is to find an
Joseph Liu: anchor point that's consistently served you well, kept
Joseph Liu: you grounded, or just helped you feel more
Joseph Liu: in control. Identify one activity, skill set, person,
Joseph Liu: or place you can reconnect with regularly to
Joseph Liu: create that sense of familiarity that serves as
Joseph Liu: a source of comfort, confidence, and certainty as
Joseph Liu: you face those professional and personal challenges around
Joseph Liu: you. If you have some thoughts or a
Joseph Liu: question about career transitions you'd like to share,
Joseph Liu: I'd welcome you leaving me a voice mail
Joseph Liu: with your thoughts at career relaunch dot net
Joseph Liu: slash one zero three, where you can also
Joseph Liu: find a summary of my chat with Dorna
Joseph Liu: and learn more about her. Again, that's career
Joseph Liu: relaunch dot net slash one zero three. And
Joseph Liu: if you enjoyed this conversation, I'd appreciate you
Joseph Liu: leaving a five star review on Spotify or
Joseph Liu: Apple Podcasts. That's also the best way to
Joseph Liu: support the show and help other professionals relaunching
Joseph Liu: their careers to find this podcast. Be sure
Joseph Liu: to follow the show so new Career Relaunch
Joseph Liu: Podcast episodes automatically show up in your podcast
Joseph Liu: feed the moment they get released. Thanks so
Joseph Liu: much for being a part of the Career
Joseph Liu: Relaunch community, and a special thanks again to
Joseph Liu: Dorna Laqayan for sharing her story with us
Joseph Liu: today from Amsterdam. This episode was mixed by
Joseph Liu: Liam McKenzie, and the Career Relaunch theme song
Joseph Liu: was written and performed by Electrocardiogram. I'm Joseph