WEBVTT NOTE Transcription provided by Deepgram 00:00:00.880 --> 00:00:03.840 It's not also easy to come from one 00:00:03.840 --> 00:00:06.720 country to another and to start over, to 00:00:06.720 --> 00:00:08.960 have no friends, have no family, have no 00:00:08.960 --> 00:00:13.280 support, have nothing to lean on, to start 00:00:13.280 --> 00:00:15.059 over. It's really challenging. 00:00:16.285 --> 00:00:18.925 Welcome to the career relaunch podcast focused on 00:00:18.925 --> 00:00:21.725 helping you successfully reinvent your career. My name 00:00:21.725 --> 00:00:23.405 is Joseph Liu, and I'm here to help 00:00:23.405 --> 00:00:25.485 you gain the clarity, confidence, and courage to 00:00:25.485 --> 00:00:27.645 overcome the challenges of making changes to your 00:00:27.645 --> 00:00:29.565 career so you can do more meaningful work 00:00:29.565 --> 00:00:32.370 and enjoy your professional life. In each episode, 00:00:32.430 --> 00:00:34.110 I feature people who have stepped off the 00:00:34.110 --> 00:00:36.510 beaten path to reinvent their careers. We talk 00:00:36.510 --> 00:00:38.910 through their unique personal journeys, the challenges they 00:00:38.910 --> 00:00:40.910 overcame, and the lessons they learned along the 00:00:40.910 --> 00:00:42.750 way to help you understand what it takes 00:00:42.750 --> 00:00:45.495 to relaunch your own career. Today, my guest 00:00:45.495 --> 00:00:47.734 will share her story of leaving Iran to 00:00:47.734 --> 00:00:50.774 make multiple international moves as her career in 00:00:50.774 --> 00:00:53.894 architecture and design evolved. We'll discuss the challenges 00:00:53.894 --> 00:00:56.795 of penetrating new professional circles and the emotional 00:00:56.854 --> 00:00:59.719 dynamics of running your own business. Afterwards, during 00:00:59.719 --> 00:01:02.039 today's mental fuel, I'll share my thoughts on 00:01:02.039 --> 00:01:03.719 what it takes to fit into a new 00:01:03.719 --> 00:01:12.280 environment. Have you ever felt a bit out 00:01:12.280 --> 00:01:14.295 of place in a job? Have you ever 00:01:14.295 --> 00:01:16.695 been more like an outsider than an insider 00:01:16.695 --> 00:01:18.935 at your company? Have you ever struggled to 00:01:18.935 --> 00:01:21.815 fit in at your workplace? Today, I'm speaking 00:01:21.815 --> 00:01:25.015 with Dorna Lakayan, an interior architect and furniture 00:01:25.015 --> 00:01:27.280 designer with Persian and Norwegian roots who's made 00:01:27.280 --> 00:01:28.880 a bit of a habit adapting to new 00:01:28.880 --> 00:01:32.240 environments across her multiple international moves. She now 00:01:32.240 --> 00:01:35.200 runs her own independent architectural firm, Studio La 00:01:35.200 --> 00:01:38.320 Cayan, where she transforms houses into dream homes 00:01:38.320 --> 00:01:41.985 and brand identities into memorable venues worldwide. Her 00:01:41.985 --> 00:01:44.945 approach focuses on inhabitants being at the centerpiece 00:01:44.945 --> 00:01:47.985 of a space, complementing habits and lifestyles through 00:01:47.985 --> 00:01:51.505 mindful space design and visual harmony. Her philosophy 00:01:51.505 --> 00:01:53.424 and approach center on the idea that a 00:01:53.424 --> 00:01:56.540 good space creates space to feel, to think, 00:01:56.540 --> 00:01:58.620 and to be you. Now, if her name 00:01:58.620 --> 00:02:00.780 and voice sound familiar, it's because I featured 00:02:00.780 --> 00:02:02.540 a voicemail she left for me in Episode 00:02:02.540 --> 00:02:04.460 one zero two, where she shared a glimpse 00:02:04.460 --> 00:02:07.260 into her own challenges around moving countries, changing 00:02:07.260 --> 00:02:10.555 environments, and starting her own architectural firm. Her 00:02:10.555 --> 00:02:13.035 honesty and transparency really struck me, and I 00:02:13.035 --> 00:02:14.395 later reached out to her to see if 00:02:14.395 --> 00:02:16.155 she might be willing to share more details 00:02:16.155 --> 00:02:18.475 about her career journey on the show. If 00:02:18.475 --> 00:02:20.315 you're someone out there who's ever had to 00:02:20.315 --> 00:02:22.315 adapt to a new environment or deal with 00:02:22.315 --> 00:02:24.550 the challenges of feeling like an outsider, I 00:02:24.550 --> 00:02:26.950 think you'll find her perspectives to be very 00:02:26.950 --> 00:02:29.350 relatable and helpful. You can get all the 00:02:29.350 --> 00:02:31.910 show notes from today's conversation at career relaunch 00:02:31.910 --> 00:02:34.310 dot net slash one zero three. Dorna spoke 00:02:34.310 --> 00:02:39.685 with me from Amsterdam in the Netherlands. Hello, 00:02:39.685 --> 00:02:42.165 Dorna. Welcome to the Career Relaunch podcast. It 00:02:42.165 --> 00:02:43.625 is great to have you on the show. 00:02:44.405 --> 00:02:46.805 Hello, Josef. It's very nice to be here. 00:02:46.805 --> 00:02:48.185 Thank you for having me. 00:02:48.325 --> 00:02:50.825 I am looking forward to talking with you 00:02:51.045 --> 00:02:54.470 about a lot of your geographical transitions and 00:02:54.470 --> 00:02:57.030 the ups and downs you've experienced along the 00:02:57.030 --> 00:02:59.350 way, your recent decision to start your own 00:02:59.350 --> 00:03:01.990 architectural firm. But I'd love to start by 00:03:01.990 --> 00:03:04.410 just first getting a snapshot of your life 00:03:04.470 --> 00:03:07.605 right now. What are you focused on both 00:03:07.605 --> 00:03:10.505 personally and also professionally at this moment? 00:03:11.765 --> 00:03:13.925 For me, they are not really separated from 00:03:13.925 --> 00:03:16.405 each other. Maybe being a designer, I have 00:03:16.405 --> 00:03:20.165 always lived, eat, I don't know, breathe design 00:03:20.165 --> 00:03:22.410 because all of an attitude. So my life 00:03:22.410 --> 00:03:27.530 is designed and it's really intersectionally going forward 00:03:27.530 --> 00:03:30.410 together. But my focus these days mostly is, 00:03:30.410 --> 00:03:33.450 of course, establishing my life here in the 00:03:33.450 --> 00:03:38.075 new country, new city, finding new friends, new 00:03:38.075 --> 00:03:42.315 colleagues, I don't know, new collaborators, figuring out 00:03:42.315 --> 00:03:43.215 what's next. 00:03:43.595 --> 00:03:46.655 You haven't always lived in Amsterdam. So let's 00:03:46.715 --> 00:03:49.035 start at the beginning and move forward from 00:03:49.035 --> 00:03:50.475 there. I'd like to actually go all the 00:03:50.475 --> 00:03:53.650 way back to your childhood when you grew 00:03:53.650 --> 00:03:55.830 up in Iran, which is where you're from. 00:03:56.210 --> 00:03:58.290 What do you remember about your life in 00:03:58.290 --> 00:03:59.670 Iran as a child? 00:04:01.090 --> 00:04:04.470 I think after coming to Europe, my biggest 00:04:04.925 --> 00:04:08.845 memory of Iran relates to the sun. So 00:04:08.845 --> 00:04:12.045 it was a very sunny part of the 00:04:12.045 --> 00:04:14.364 world, especially when you are a child. Maybe 00:04:14.364 --> 00:04:16.525 you are more curious, so you see more, 00:04:16.525 --> 00:04:19.230 you observe more. So I remember a lot 00:04:19.230 --> 00:04:22.590 of patterns, a lot of colors. We live 00:04:22.590 --> 00:04:24.510 in a part of the world that sun 00:04:24.510 --> 00:04:27.230 is available. So a lot of architecture and 00:04:27.230 --> 00:04:30.130 a lot of things are built around it. 00:04:30.705 --> 00:04:35.265 The shadows, the concept of actually shadowed spaces 00:04:35.265 --> 00:04:40.385 and sunny spaces, or light spaces. So there's 00:04:40.385 --> 00:04:43.445 a lot of things that, about the architecture. 00:04:43.585 --> 00:04:45.780 Of course, I remember, but then I come 00:04:45.780 --> 00:04:49.379 from a family that architecture was important or 00:04:49.379 --> 00:04:52.419 art was important. So maybe that's why most 00:04:52.419 --> 00:04:54.440 of my memories are around it as well. 00:04:54.819 --> 00:04:56.580 Or maybe I was just curious as a 00:04:56.580 --> 00:04:59.080 child to become an architect. I don't know. 00:04:59.300 --> 00:04:59.620 So 00:05:00.565 --> 00:05:02.985 Were your parents also involved in some sort 00:05:03.045 --> 00:05:05.385 of design or architectural industry? 00:05:06.245 --> 00:05:11.365 My dad is, civil engineer, and my mom 00:05:11.365 --> 00:05:13.949 is an artist or used to be. It 00:05:13.949 --> 00:05:16.669 was never her profession, but she was just 00:05:16.669 --> 00:05:20.270 into art. So she would paint and make 00:05:20.270 --> 00:05:22.910 a lot of things. As a child, I 00:05:22.910 --> 00:05:25.630 was a very, like, preserved child. I wouldn't 00:05:25.630 --> 00:05:28.270 show so much of my emotions. And to 00:05:28.270 --> 00:05:30.455 help me to show more as a child, 00:05:30.455 --> 00:05:32.695 my mom had taught me that I can 00:05:32.695 --> 00:05:36.955 create things and show things with creating stuff. 00:05:37.175 --> 00:05:38.855 So I had ended up, I don't know, 00:05:38.855 --> 00:05:43.175 suing and knitting and all of those little 00:05:43.175 --> 00:05:45.729 things that a child can do, painting and 00:05:45.729 --> 00:05:48.310 writing cards and notes and things like that. 00:05:48.370 --> 00:05:51.349 So that was my daily routine of creating. 00:05:52.129 --> 00:05:54.050 In most cases on this show, we would 00:05:54.050 --> 00:05:58.175 typically feature somebody who has a certain professional 00:05:58.235 --> 00:06:00.315 background and then they switch sectors and they 00:06:00.315 --> 00:06:02.555 maybe switch roles within a company. Now, in 00:06:02.555 --> 00:06:05.435 your case, you from a very early start 00:06:05.435 --> 00:06:07.435 wanted to become an architect. At what point 00:06:07.435 --> 00:06:09.435 did you realize that and how did you 00:06:09.435 --> 00:06:11.055 know you wanted to become an architect? 00:06:11.680 --> 00:06:13.440 Yeah. The thing is, I didn't have the 00:06:13.440 --> 00:06:15.600 title, so I didn't know what I want 00:06:15.600 --> 00:06:18.560 to become is an architect. That was the 00:06:18.560 --> 00:06:21.700 whole, but I knew that I love to 00:06:22.240 --> 00:06:25.360 create and I love to do things within 00:06:25.360 --> 00:06:28.065 the spaces. For many years, I had a 00:06:28.065 --> 00:06:30.725 title for myself. I called myself the psychologist 00:06:31.025 --> 00:06:34.065 of spaces because I really thought that I 00:06:34.065 --> 00:06:38.165 still believe that that you can change somebody's 00:06:38.305 --> 00:06:40.945 feelings, emotion, habits, a lot of things about 00:06:40.945 --> 00:06:43.240 how easy your life is by having a 00:06:43.240 --> 00:06:45.480 good space. And then as a child, I 00:06:45.480 --> 00:06:47.820 called myself psychologist at the space of course. 00:06:47.880 --> 00:06:50.600 But then my best friend's dad was an 00:06:50.600 --> 00:06:53.900 architect. And one evening I saw a book 00:06:54.120 --> 00:06:56.600 in their home, which is the drawing of, 00:06:56.600 --> 00:07:00.485 or a picture of the Frank Lloyd's, Wright's, 00:07:01.425 --> 00:07:03.425 waterfall house, the fountain house. And then when 00:07:03.425 --> 00:07:06.805 I saw that, this interaction between outside, inside 00:07:06.865 --> 00:07:09.664 was so interesting and how the waterfall had 00:07:09.664 --> 00:07:12.240 gone under that building and all of these 00:07:12.240 --> 00:07:15.120 beautiful things. So I went to his toilet 00:07:15.120 --> 00:07:17.840 and said, what should I do? What kind 00:07:17.840 --> 00:07:20.000 of profession should I have to be able 00:07:20.000 --> 00:07:22.000 to do this? And he said, you need 00:07:22.000 --> 00:07:24.879 to be an architect. That was the day 00:07:24.879 --> 00:07:27.815 I I realized I need to be an 00:07:27.815 --> 00:07:29.195 architect. You know? 00:07:29.495 --> 00:07:31.815 For those people out there like me who 00:07:31.815 --> 00:07:34.375 have never been to Iran, how would you 00:07:34.375 --> 00:07:37.815 describe the overall professional scene in the city 00:07:37.815 --> 00:07:39.275 where you grew up there? 00:07:40.340 --> 00:07:42.180 When I left Iran, I was quite young, 00:07:42.180 --> 00:07:44.740 so I was twenty four. So I can't 00:07:44.740 --> 00:07:48.280 really say much about the professional scene because 00:07:48.340 --> 00:07:50.920 I worked only a few years there. But 00:07:50.980 --> 00:07:55.545 generally speaking, architecture and civil engineering, which are 00:07:55.705 --> 00:07:58.745 the dominant jobs on the field, are quite 00:07:58.745 --> 00:08:01.645 masculine. So you don't see so many females 00:08:01.865 --> 00:08:04.185 on the we didn't. I don't know. Maybe 00:08:04.185 --> 00:08:07.065 now it has changed. All I remember was 00:08:07.065 --> 00:08:09.580 that you needed some sort of a support 00:08:09.580 --> 00:08:11.500 from somebody, but then that can also come 00:08:11.500 --> 00:08:13.280 from the fact that I was very young. 00:08:13.419 --> 00:08:16.780 So I needed mentors and people who would 00:08:16.780 --> 00:08:20.699 help me. Generally, Iran is a country full 00:08:20.699 --> 00:08:24.800 of architecture, and there's a big history and, 00:08:25.135 --> 00:08:28.975 like, a very rich history, about architecture in 00:08:28.975 --> 00:08:32.095 that part of the world. So you learn 00:08:32.095 --> 00:08:34.975 a lot, but it's not practiced that way, 00:08:34.975 --> 00:08:35.875 of course, anymore. 00:08:36.335 --> 00:08:39.210 What ultimately led you to decide to leave 00:08:39.450 --> 00:08:40.270 Iran behind? 00:08:42.170 --> 00:08:44.330 I don't think you make this decision in 00:08:44.330 --> 00:08:47.310 Iran. You kind of are growing with it, 00:08:48.410 --> 00:08:50.250 which is a kind of a sad part 00:08:50.250 --> 00:08:52.170 of the story because it's according to me, 00:08:52.170 --> 00:08:54.585 one of the best places to be. Due 00:08:54.585 --> 00:08:57.305 to the whole situation in that part, in 00:08:57.305 --> 00:09:00.105 the Middle East, with all the complication it 00:09:00.105 --> 00:09:03.145 has, I think as a child, if you 00:09:03.145 --> 00:09:06.900 have the ability to grow and learn and 00:09:07.460 --> 00:09:09.460 are curious enough to live, you are kind 00:09:09.460 --> 00:09:11.300 of encouraged to do it from a very 00:09:11.300 --> 00:09:13.860 young age. And that was the same for 00:09:13.860 --> 00:09:15.620 me. So I learned English when I was 00:09:15.620 --> 00:09:17.860 quite young. I started learning English at a 00:09:17.860 --> 00:09:20.805 very young age. And then before you know, 00:09:20.805 --> 00:09:23.125 when I felt like everything is settled and 00:09:23.125 --> 00:09:25.605 I am now an architect and I can 00:09:25.605 --> 00:09:27.605 take care of myself and everything, it was 00:09:27.605 --> 00:09:30.165 time to be curious and leave. So, you 00:09:30.165 --> 00:09:32.325 know, I cannot really say it was a 00:09:32.325 --> 00:09:35.500 decision made, but maybe it was, but it 00:09:35.500 --> 00:09:37.740 was also grown into me. So it's like 00:09:37.740 --> 00:09:40.620 a very complicated thing to say, but generally 00:09:40.620 --> 00:09:43.100 speaking comes out of curiosity to learn more 00:09:43.100 --> 00:09:46.060 and to see more. Because obviously I went 00:09:46.060 --> 00:09:48.805 to study. Yeah. That's how I left. The 00:09:48.805 --> 00:09:50.565 decision was not there if I'm going back 00:09:50.565 --> 00:09:51.305 or not. 00:09:51.445 --> 00:09:53.145 What year was this? 00:09:53.525 --> 00:09:56.245 Two thousand and ten. That's when I left 00:09:56.245 --> 00:09:56.985 first time. 00:09:57.285 --> 00:09:59.365 So this is not a political show, but 00:09:59.365 --> 00:10:01.800 obviously at the time, things probably a bit 00:10:01.800 --> 00:10:04.519 unstable, sanctions in place. And so I would 00:10:04.519 --> 00:10:04.959 imagine 00:10:05.399 --> 00:10:07.560 And as a young person, like, of course, 00:10:07.560 --> 00:10:09.500 you have a future in front of you 00:10:09.560 --> 00:10:11.720 and you want to build and create, but 00:10:11.720 --> 00:10:13.639 you are also know that things are not 00:10:13.639 --> 00:10:16.995 going to get better and the opportunities are 00:10:16.995 --> 00:10:19.635 not going to rise. I already see a 00:10:19.635 --> 00:10:22.274 lot of friends who are there and like 00:10:22.274 --> 00:10:25.075 imagine the inflation rate and all of these 00:10:25.075 --> 00:10:28.615 things are affecting your carrier and your decisions 00:10:28.675 --> 00:10:31.230 and all of that. So taking risks is 00:10:31.230 --> 00:10:35.470 harder. Hope, maybe having a hopeful future is 00:10:35.470 --> 00:10:38.750 harder. In that sense, I think, of course, 00:10:38.750 --> 00:10:41.870 I don't regret that decision, but anyway, it's 00:10:41.870 --> 00:10:44.430 your hometown. So you have friends and family 00:10:44.430 --> 00:10:47.495 and memories. You will speak the language. It's 00:10:47.495 --> 00:10:48.394 a different thing. 00:10:52.774 --> 00:10:54.695 Just to switch gears here and talk about 00:10:54.695 --> 00:10:56.295 the next chapter of your career, where did 00:10:56.295 --> 00:10:58.695 you go and how did you decide on 00:10:58.695 --> 00:10:59.834 where to go next? 00:11:00.650 --> 00:11:04.650 First destination was, Malaysia, Kuala Lumpur, and that 00:11:04.650 --> 00:11:08.010 really just happened because I actually had got 00:11:08.010 --> 00:11:13.274 admission to study architecture in Oxford. And that 00:11:13.274 --> 00:11:15.115 day that I was supposed to get my 00:11:15.115 --> 00:11:18.315 ticket, I couldn't. And Oxford just said, oh, 00:11:18.315 --> 00:11:20.175 you're too late. And I was like, okay. 00:11:20.315 --> 00:11:23.834 Now what? And I had a friend who 00:11:23.834 --> 00:11:26.440 knew a few people in Malaysia, and he 00:11:26.440 --> 00:11:28.120 was just like, yeah. Why not go to 00:11:28.120 --> 00:11:29.640 Malaysia and see how it is? And I'm 00:11:29.640 --> 00:11:32.280 like, sure. Let's do that. And then I 00:11:32.280 --> 00:11:35.160 went to Malaysia, Kuala Lumpur. I went to 00:11:35.160 --> 00:11:37.720 the school, talked to a few people, liked 00:11:37.720 --> 00:11:39.560 it there, and I said, okay. I want 00:11:39.560 --> 00:11:42.584 to study more of architecture. And then I 00:11:42.584 --> 00:11:46.345 started actually interior architecture. And then after that, 00:11:46.345 --> 00:11:47.785 I worked a little bit. I worked at 00:11:47.785 --> 00:11:50.505 a school. I worked at an American company 00:11:50.505 --> 00:11:53.385 in design. And then while I was there, 00:11:53.385 --> 00:11:55.464 I decided that I don't want to stay 00:11:55.464 --> 00:11:57.570 there. It didn't feel like a place for 00:11:57.570 --> 00:12:00.370 me to want to build my future, like 00:12:00.370 --> 00:12:03.810 to call home. That's when I decided to 00:12:03.810 --> 00:12:06.310 move towards Europe and see what is Europe. 00:12:06.930 --> 00:12:08.850 Now I know you mentioned you just kinda 00:12:08.850 --> 00:12:10.665 had a friend and then you end up 00:12:10.665 --> 00:12:13.145 moving over to Kuala Lumpur. But did you 00:12:13.145 --> 00:12:15.385 have the means to just pick up and 00:12:15.385 --> 00:12:17.705 just move to a new country? It seems 00:12:17.705 --> 00:12:21.225 like a big leap to make. I guess 00:12:21.225 --> 00:12:24.105 immigration wasn't an issue for you going into 00:12:24.105 --> 00:12:24.605 Malaysia. 00:12:25.230 --> 00:12:26.670 When I went to Malaysia, first of all, 00:12:26.670 --> 00:12:28.670 I was not thinking that I'm immigrating, you 00:12:28.670 --> 00:12:30.430 know, in my head. I was going on 00:12:30.430 --> 00:12:33.470 this trip to see what is happening. And 00:12:33.470 --> 00:12:35.149 then I ended up staying. Like, I was 00:12:35.149 --> 00:12:37.089 not even a student at the time. Right. 00:12:37.235 --> 00:12:38.755 So I went there and I went to 00:12:38.755 --> 00:12:40.115 school and I liked the school and I 00:12:40.115 --> 00:12:43.235 stayed the whole thing. Generally speaking, I always 00:12:43.235 --> 00:12:44.595 have been told in my life that I'm 00:12:44.595 --> 00:12:47.155 a very brave person. And up until a 00:12:47.155 --> 00:12:48.915 few years ago, I kept saying like, no, 00:12:48.915 --> 00:12:52.435 what's brave about me? I have started to 00:12:52.435 --> 00:12:55.170 realize maybe I am brave or braver than 00:12:55.170 --> 00:12:55.750 I think. 00:12:56.210 --> 00:12:56.710 Yeah. 00:12:57.090 --> 00:12:59.250 Now it's funny for me when I think 00:12:59.250 --> 00:13:02.050 about it, what was I thinking? Like twenty 00:13:02.050 --> 00:13:04.210 three year old and then you just go 00:13:04.210 --> 00:13:05.834 somewhere and you are like, oh, this is 00:13:05.834 --> 00:13:07.355 cool. I want to learn. Oh, my God. 00:13:07.355 --> 00:13:10.235 Look at these buildings. Because being in Iran, 00:13:10.235 --> 00:13:12.334 of course, you have all of these historical 00:13:12.955 --> 00:13:15.995 sites and old arch the vernacular, and I 00:13:15.995 --> 00:13:18.895 don't know, clay architecture and colors and everything. 00:13:19.380 --> 00:13:21.720 And I was in Kuala Lumpur with skyscrapers 00:13:22.260 --> 00:13:25.460 and new modern technologies. And I don't know, 00:13:25.460 --> 00:13:29.860 like architects from Australia, America, Europe, everybody was 00:13:29.860 --> 00:13:32.340 in Kuala Lumpur building something. So it was 00:13:32.340 --> 00:13:36.445 really a new scene of architecture. And I 00:13:36.445 --> 00:13:37.965 was like this little kid who was in 00:13:37.965 --> 00:13:41.165 a candy store. He's like, oh my God, 00:13:41.165 --> 00:13:42.605 look at this and look at that and 00:13:42.605 --> 00:13:45.105 look at this. So it was fun. 00:13:48.950 --> 00:13:50.790 Before we talk about your next move, you 00:13:50.790 --> 00:13:52.650 mentioned that you didn't quite see your future 00:13:52.710 --> 00:13:55.610 there. What was it about being there that 00:13:55.750 --> 00:13:58.070 led you to believe that you didn't envision 00:13:58.070 --> 00:13:59.850 yourself being there long term? 00:14:00.310 --> 00:14:02.550 I think it was mostly about the fact 00:14:02.550 --> 00:14:04.515 that maybe this is too extreme to say 00:14:04.515 --> 00:14:06.535 it this way, but I didn't feel safe 00:14:06.995 --> 00:14:11.075 as a citizen. And finally, for me, I 00:14:11.075 --> 00:14:12.675 know this is not an impression of a 00:14:12.675 --> 00:14:15.255 lot of people. Iran was very safer and 00:14:15.395 --> 00:14:18.500 more convenient to be at. And of course, 00:14:18.500 --> 00:14:19.940 this can come from the fact that I 00:14:19.940 --> 00:14:23.400 was an immigrant. So it's a different level. 00:14:23.460 --> 00:14:26.180 You look different. Whatever you do, you look 00:14:26.180 --> 00:14:29.220 different. And then of course, we all know 00:14:29.220 --> 00:14:32.145 being a woman, it's also another minority a 00:14:32.145 --> 00:14:34.725 little bit in our business, which is architecture, 00:14:34.865 --> 00:14:37.985 real estate, things like that. So I didn't 00:14:37.985 --> 00:14:43.425 really see myself building what I envisioned because 00:14:43.425 --> 00:14:46.150 I think especially at that time, I was 00:14:46.150 --> 00:14:47.910 seeing myself. Like, I wanted to be a 00:14:47.910 --> 00:14:50.390 Frank Lloyd Wright. You know? That's how I 00:14:50.390 --> 00:14:52.950 started the whole journey, and that was not 00:14:52.950 --> 00:14:55.670 happening there. I couldn't see that. I still 00:14:55.670 --> 00:14:59.285 was lacking some sort of trust in my 00:14:59.285 --> 00:15:03.045 surrounding or some sort of trust in what 00:15:03.045 --> 00:15:05.285 I want to build, and that was not 00:15:05.285 --> 00:15:07.365 there for me yet. And that can also 00:15:07.365 --> 00:15:08.725 come from the fact that I was a 00:15:08.725 --> 00:15:11.890 junior in Malaysia. Right? It's like you just 00:15:11.890 --> 00:15:15.010 graduated architecture school. You are, like, super young 00:15:15.010 --> 00:15:15.410 and 00:15:15.970 --> 00:15:16.470 Yeah. 00:15:17.170 --> 00:15:17.670 Exactly. 00:15:18.050 --> 00:15:20.450 That's interesting. I do think that sometimes in 00:15:20.450 --> 00:15:22.450 our careers and I consider myself quite a 00:15:22.450 --> 00:15:25.795 logical left brained individual, but sometimes you can 00:15:25.795 --> 00:15:29.235 just kind of feel that nothing is really 00:15:29.235 --> 00:15:31.075 going to progress where you're at. You can 00:15:31.075 --> 00:15:32.435 just kind of feel it. You can kind 00:15:32.435 --> 00:15:34.834 of tell that there's not really a future 00:15:34.834 --> 00:15:37.575 for you in this location or this organization 00:15:37.635 --> 00:15:40.400 or this sector, and you have to do 00:15:40.400 --> 00:15:42.740 something about it. Otherwise you'll just stagnate. 00:15:43.520 --> 00:15:47.060 Finally, now every day, I'm trying so hard 00:15:47.360 --> 00:15:50.160 to go back to that because I think 00:15:50.160 --> 00:15:52.240 the older I got, the more I saw, 00:15:52.240 --> 00:15:55.765 the more wisdom came, the more doubt in 00:15:55.765 --> 00:15:59.365 my instinct also came with it. And then 00:15:59.365 --> 00:16:01.945 when you are young, your instinct are talking 00:16:02.005 --> 00:16:05.045 really loud and clear and you trust them 00:16:05.045 --> 00:16:06.644 and you go for it. And that's what 00:16:06.644 --> 00:16:10.060 everybody calls young and crazy. But I really 00:16:10.060 --> 00:16:12.560 now hope I can become young and crazy 00:16:12.620 --> 00:16:15.100 every day in my life. That would be 00:16:15.100 --> 00:16:17.680 fantastic. Right. 00:16:18.700 --> 00:16:21.580 So speaking about another potentially young and crazy 00:16:21.580 --> 00:16:23.755 move, you decide to move to Europe. Where 00:16:23.755 --> 00:16:25.514 did you end up going and why did 00:16:25.514 --> 00:16:27.295 you choose that destination? 00:16:28.074 --> 00:16:31.774 I went from, Kuala Lumpur, the city of 00:16:31.834 --> 00:16:36.930 never ending summer to Oslo, the part of 00:16:36.930 --> 00:16:38.930 the world that is well known for its 00:16:38.930 --> 00:16:43.490 lack of sunlight. Oslo was practically to do 00:16:43.490 --> 00:16:47.410 my master's. My destination was Europe that I 00:16:47.410 --> 00:16:50.175 knew the way to come to Europe for 00:16:50.175 --> 00:16:51.535 me in my head was to do my 00:16:51.535 --> 00:16:54.995 master's. And the main focus was, of course, 00:16:55.055 --> 00:16:56.975 architecture and design. This 00:16:56.975 --> 00:16:58.095 was general design. 00:16:58.095 --> 00:17:01.639 Yeah. General design. Exactly. But of course, within 00:17:01.700 --> 00:17:04.260 space. So that's what I wanted to do. 00:17:04.260 --> 00:17:06.919 And then I sent applications to a few 00:17:07.059 --> 00:17:10.820 universities among which National Academy of the Art 00:17:10.820 --> 00:17:14.345 in Oslo gave me admission. And at the 00:17:14.345 --> 00:17:16.105 time, I had to choose, of course, between 00:17:16.105 --> 00:17:18.425 these universities when I got because I got 00:17:18.425 --> 00:17:21.565 admission from a few. And the question was, 00:17:21.705 --> 00:17:24.745 which is my destination? Like and I didn't 00:17:24.745 --> 00:17:26.905 really choose it based on the geography, but 00:17:26.905 --> 00:17:29.430 based on the school. I did some research, 00:17:29.490 --> 00:17:32.450 and National Academy of Arts where I was 00:17:32.450 --> 00:17:35.090 admission to do the master in design had 00:17:35.090 --> 00:17:38.770 the best workshops available in Europe. And me 00:17:38.770 --> 00:17:41.410 coming from this background in architecture where I 00:17:41.410 --> 00:17:45.005 had all the theory in my pocket could 00:17:45.005 --> 00:17:49.885 really advantage, have, like, benefit from, being somewhere 00:17:49.885 --> 00:17:52.605 where I can actually be hands on and 00:17:52.605 --> 00:17:54.924 create with my hands, not only with my 00:17:54.924 --> 00:17:58.465 brain. And that opportunity was hundred percent available 00:17:58.605 --> 00:18:01.460 in Oslo. I took that chance and I 00:18:01.460 --> 00:18:03.539