Welcome to the Can med coffee talk podcast.
Test. Will we talk with the leading minds
in cannabis science, medicine,
cultivation, and safety testing.
I am your host, Ben Ama, S I
am the marketing manager at Medicinal Genomics, and
proud member of the team that puts on
the Can med conference.
Alright. Well, I don't have my for updates
this episode other than to tell you that
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My guest today is David Aaron.
David is a cannabis educator who since 20
18 has directly educated more than 5000 health
professionals.
Nationwide
on the medical
applications of cannabis.
He is on the faculty for Pe,
1 of the nation's largest providers of professional
continuing
education, and he independently provides seminars for health
professionals around the country.
I learned during our conversation that David also
has post treatment lyme disease, which is a
condition that causes fatigue, neuro pain, brain fog,
forgetful
and other chronic symptoms that he treats with
cannabis.
His experience made him curious whether others have
found success using cannabis to treat persistent lime.
And has shared his findings at Cam 24
as a poster
presentation and also with me to in the
conversation you're about to hear.
We covered what is lyme disease and how
does 1 acquire it? The different stages of
lyme disease
treatments that are available to treat chronic lime,
how David collected data for the study
and which types of product
are effective for chronic lyme symptoms.
Before we get to my conversation with David,
I'd like to thank this episode sponsor
Mckinney, Rsa.
Mckinney Rsa is made up of regulatory
science veterans who apply lessons learned in the
nicotine space,
to help cannabis manufacturers better understand the toxic
and societal
implications of their product.
They do that by identifying base compounds,
extracts, flavors, tu,
understanding how they interact and ensuring effectiveness for
the intended use.
They also provide dosing
recommendations and establish guidelines for product consistency.
You can learn more at Mc mckinney Rsa.
Dot com.
Okay. And without any further ado, please enjoy
my conversation with david aaron
Good afternoon, David. Thanks so much for joining
you on the podcast.
Thanks for having me. Glad to be hear.
Alright. Well, I'm excited to talk with you
today about using cannabis to potentially treat persistent
and post treatment lyme disease.
And
this is a timely topic for me because
I actually found a deer tick on my
torso a few weeks back.
Thankfully, I called it early and took a
dose of antibiotics. So I'm hopeful that I
prevented an infection, but I we can get
into that a bit.
But nevertheless,
lyme disease has at least been on my
mind recently.
So,
I'm happy that I've had a chance to
to talk with you about it here today.
And about whether cannabis can be used to
treat long term cases. But before we get
into all that, I think it would be
helpful to establish you the basics of what
lyme disease is. So
could you could you do that for us?
We're absolutely. And so... And and so when
first to finance something important to note. So
lyme disease is a bacterial infection. So cannabis
is not going to cure
lyme disease at all.
It's a
I would... Well, I look at as a
as a symptomatic and palliative treatment for the
illness because there's so many symptoms.
And, so many side effects from treatments is
stuff like that that's very helpful in that
way But lime is a bacterial infection that
is transmitted
primarily by ticks,
and the ticks,
deer ticks, primarily, although they're found in other
types of ticks.
There's black legged ticks in the northern
latitude in in the Western part of the
country too, like in California. There aren't deer
ticks, but they also carry lyme disease, but
they're also finding it in
lone star ticks and and
and
dog ticks and Wood. So it can be
found in any kind of tick that's just
the most commonly in the deer tick because
the way the life cycle works they contracted
from mice, actually, So just regular old mice
or the reservoir for lime.
And then the the baby ticks pick it
up from that, they
and they can give it to deer, but
then they get on the deer and they
fall up deer and then they often find
us or they find us before the deer.
But like I said, there are other ticks
in, they all carry lots of different presence
for us. So it's not just lyme,
an.
Having only lyme disease is often the section
to the rule.
And so what I would encourage you to
do is just ask for a follow up
test. For for a full panel, the other
stuff,
and if you at all feel them well
in the next few weeks.
For because there's a there's about a dozen
things that they carry that they can pass
on to us, and it's very common for
people have 2 or 3 infections at a
time. Oh, wow.
And it's a it's a special kind of
bacteria. It's a aspire key,
much like syphilis, so it's like a little
cork screw. And so it really gets into
cells
into tissue, and so It can hide really
a well from our immune system we can
even. Hang on to white blood cells themselves.
And then on that, but it can change
shape.
So
they'd you know, when you take... If if
it's been in the body for a long
time and well established.
There's enough of them when when they're exposed
to 1 type of antibiotic, they'll actually... Change
into a different type of bacteria that's not
susceptible to that type of antibiotic
until
it's gotten in the teach. But it's really...
It's wild. There's a... It's just a nutty
thing. So it's very advanced and it's hard
to treat once it becomes... It's systemic in
the body. But if you catch it very
early,
then it's then just, you know, a few
a few rounds of do cycling is pretty
much all it takes
for most people.
But when,
when it persists,
can... It can persist to... And tell me
wants to read 10 to 20 percent people
can end about chronic conditions,
either from a continuing infection or from damage
done by they the illness.
So what is sort of, like,
I guess this is more of a personal
question. So how what is sort of the
the timeline?
From, you know, despite or your experience symptoms.
There's 3 basic stages of the initial stages
flu like symptoms
and so and so
people feel pretty sick right away. So, like,
I... So the reason I came so interesting.
This is I had a really bad case.
So I... And so when I first had,
I definitely had, like, a summer flu that
didn't go away. And I went saw the
doctor,
and
she she gave me a line test, what
she said,
I went should to come back in 2
weeks because are very often wrong.
And a couple weeks later, I felt a
lot better, and she said it was negative.
I never went back.
I really should have gone back.
So that's something to be aware of is
that the the testing
is terrible,
for lyme season in general.
It's got a little better, but it's but
it's it's a hard thing to detect in
the body. They don't culture it or anything
that they're looking for antibodies
that can be hard to detect.
And so did you ever find a a
tick or... Yeah. Yeah. I got a scar
from it and everything? Because because when happened
to me was I found at the day
bit me,
but I
didn't have a, like, a tick scoop or
a pair of tweezers.
So I I did what my dad did
for me as a kid, which she's definitely
you're not supposed to do. I heated a
paper clip, red hot, and I killed the
tick. While it was on me.
But But that just may, what that does
is make it reg everything into. And so,
like, almost guaranteeing infection. Oh, wow. It sounds.
So that that was that was bad. At
pieces of it in me had to dig
it out is is really... It's, like, worst
case scenario for that.
Wow.
The pieces by they laid dormant for many
years,
I such you're sub acute. And then, I
got bitten again or or it was also
at the same time as was a major
life stress, and then I became a had
major neurological symptoms after that. Oh, the symptoms
you experience was well after that initial... So
I... Yeah. I had that, and then I
had this, like, weird back pain for somebody
in their twenties for many years,
and then, like, I said, Major life stress
are lost in the family,
and all of a sudden, I started going
numb from my feet up.
Like Wow And then having all sorts of
weird, like, getting lost on the way home
from work and all sorts of really unpleasant
things, Lots of pain.
And it took a long time to get
the right diagnosis.
Wow, wow.
So I think we sorta of touched on
it there, like, the different stages, Right Yeah.
Sorry. Yeah. So there's a second... Second stations
when it becomes kind of more dis in
the body,
we're end it... Right starts, like joint pain
and stuff like that, and then, the third
stage is is in the nervous system.
And that's when it becomes much harder to
treat because that typical courses of antibiotics generally
aren't effective.
Usually, Iv antibiotics are needed.
So prior to that sort of last stage,
like, a a course of
antibiotics.
Yeah. But what might need to be for
a long time, and if they're multiple infections
that have gotten out there, then you might
need multiple types of antibiotics,
it gets... It can... The treatment side like,
in the diagnosis is 1 thing within the
treatment side of things as a whole other
kind of
mess, honestly, because there's not there's no established
protocol
for these multiple infections
And so
everybody's got their own way of doing it.
Everybody thinks they're right. And,
they're probably right for some people and not
for others and sort of it's, you know,
It gets to be a a tricky thing
and a lot of it is not covered
insurance and it gets really messy.
And so is it also an issue to?
Like, you could get rid of the back.
Bacteria, but there's lasting effects. Yes. Absolutely. So
that's that's where I'm at. At this point
in my life too or, I know, I've
got peripheral perform on the neuropathy now from
it. I have an immune deficiency.
I definitely don't have lyme disease
But I have
I have a lot of symptoms of of,
without a better explanation might start to look
like Ms.
But as long as I take take care
of myself Fine.
So what you're telling me is I should
call my doctor and get more antibiotics.
If you at all feel on well the
next couple weeks. Yeah. That's what I would
do.
Alright. So we did... Alright. So, yeah That
was great. I think we we touched on
how people acquire it, what the difference the
stages are. We briefly touched about different treatment.
No. Was that a rabbit hole that we
can go to? It's a bit of a
rabbit hole. What what I would suggest would
people get...
If people get lyme disease and the initial
treatment
isn't enough.
Then a great thing to do is
there's few resources. 1 is to look up
your local line... Many...
Especially if you're in a major urban area
are a largely populated state, there's gonna be
lime disease support groups. Your You contact them.
You say, I'm really sick that my initial
treatment is not working. I'm looking for names
of doctors who specialize in treating line because
it it really is a specialty. It's called
lime literate
is a is a term to use. I'm
looking for a limelight physician. There's another organization
called eye lads. It's called international Lyme and
associate. A disease society. They they really have
established a protocol for this and that's where
our, your limelight literate positions get their training
from. A you can go to their website
and do a search for doctors trained in
your area,
and find somebody who talk to.
Most of the time these people will not
be accepting insurance. And so
I good rule of thumb is to get
a get a good quality rule. If you're
sick, And and you wanna know if you
truly have lyme disease amount you probably expect
to spend somewhere around a thousand dollars. Oh,
wow. Yeah. Just to find out if you
have it.
Really? Yeah. Once if you're talk about bringing
the doctor 200 dollars an hour for their
time, and then the testing is generally out
of pocket.
And the testing would be from those lime
literate physicians and...
They would they would draw the less with
without... There's there's a few labs that really...
Because I told you the testing so bad
the standardized test. There's... Yeah. Apps that are
fully accredited and good labs, but they're they
they're not
insurance coverage.
Generally because they do their own assays essays,
and so they're... That's
but they do a good job and that's
usually where these doctors will send the test.
Okay. Yeah. And I have to imagine too.
I mean, at least for my own experience
with with finding the deer tick. It's... Tiny.
I mean, I think they described it's like
the size of a sesame seed. Yeah. The
nits can be that small. Yep. So I
imagine that, you know,
like, perhaps in your case too where you
have some of that that summer flu or
something or that, you know, that sickness that
you just can't kick,
and, you know, attributed to. Oh, it's a
virus or something, but it really could have
been No. Yeah. My... You... Sometimes people don't
know there a bit my dad almost died
last year. Here's any...
Room ended and out for for 3 days.
They didn't know it was wrong with them,
and he kept getting fevers and and his
organs were failing. Emergency and I showed up
I said have you tested for ticks, and
they went, what do you do for a
living section. Every you mind. And I was
right. And then I given my antibiotics and
you bounced right back. Wow. Yeah.
Yeah. And so that didn't develop into some
sort of... Persistent condition? No, because it was
it was a it was that was a
it was a rare kinda of case where
it hit him hard and fast and it
was anti osmosis. That was really
tanking him.
Then that and that happens, sometimes I mean,
he's old. Says 80.
And and, yeah. Sometimes that happens.
Is that fevers of, like a hundred and
4. Not wow. Yeah. That's up there. Yep.
So
your your study
look particularly at persistent and post treatment lyme
disease. Well, yeah. So and we called that
that because, in the
the from our
so a couple things. 1 is,
I didn't want to
allude to the fact that 1 should treat
acute.
Like, a acute case with just cannabis so.
But also,
in the dataset, these are people that are
or, you know, filling out form saying I
have lyme disease. So I don't know what
stage they're at. Mh
but so it's... That's seem like a a
large enough grouping that's is kind of safe
to assume that but that they're either treating
persistent cases or post treatment, but There's no
reason that some of them couldn't have been
acute, but it's just unlikely if they're just
in that short treatment window of 2 weeks
on oxy that they would enter this world
of tree with cannabis?
Yeah. Right. The symptoms that we're tracking, like,
anxiety,
inflammatory pain,
sleep. Those kinds of things are are common
in the later stages of life. Right
and again, if you're treating with cannabis, you've
probably already been through the standard round.
These are those are assumptions that... But we
can't interview these these patients. So we're really
just looking at... They say they have lyme.
And they're treating x symptom,
and and the the tool helps them rate
it on different scales. So it what's interesting
now.
As as ubiquitous as lame is as much
as cannabis has being looked at
nobody ever looked at these 2 together before.
And if you... Which is
really surprising. Because if you do a... Just
a simple Google search,
there's a lot
where every dis dispatcher is telling you should
treat your lyme disease with cannabis. And lots
of
lots of, doctors websites have, you know, blog
posts about using cannabis to help of lyme
disease. And lots of line blogs and and
lime informational websites tell you Cbd and cannabis
are good symptomatic treatments, but absolutely, nobody has
done.
Any academic formal
look at it until not. Which is really
weird.
And, you know, we're doing a retrospective,
sort of natural
study,
and we're continuing to examine more symptoms and
then and kinda parse out the data.
Because it really is
effective and once end it's interesting that it
affects
people. So
the things that line
people...
Sorry, Lyme disease is often a root cause
of things like rheumatoid. Mh.
Als,
it can be mistaken for Parkinson's,
it for lupus, f,
these are all things people we commonly use
cannabis to treat. Right? So very... So and
they're not always caused by lyme, but Lime
is 1 of the potential... Causes of these
syndromes.
And so that was very interesting to me
too.
And so
what we found though is that people who
like use it for art
for inflammatory pain if they have lyme,
respond differently than people who are using.
Inflammatory pain who don't have.
Same thing with Anxiety. How so.
So, like, higher
Thc
formulations were found
more relieving for anxiety than
mixed canada ratios
with people with lime. Whereas we look at
overall, on the other ends, it's usually the
other way around, like, a 1 to 1
or a highest higher Cbd
ratio formula will be better. When better for
live? But for anxiety. I see. So the
Thc is more helpful for lyme.
Because it's better relieving inflammation. Right? Strat, in
sense. Or... And so it's interesting. So there's
a lot, Mean, I when we talk about
the data, there's a lot... I can I
can say about that Pretty interesting? Yeah. Let's
talk about that. I mean, first of all,
you know, where where you getting this data?
Like, how Yes. Where's? There's it There's a
great
app.
And website called strain print, strain print dot
c a. It's a Canadian
company,
but they also track a fair amount of
American product. As well. So it's a really
great
use tracking tool.
So
x And I... So I suggest to people
regardless because it's it's helpful because, you know,
you might say say you use you use
and you find out. My pain really relief,
but I also then ask you are you
feeling tired? Are you feeling
you know,
at irritable or upset something. So helps you
note side effects as well?
Are and help dial in. So kinda help
dialing in your dosing that way.
But it asked people to identify their
disease or or diagnosis, and then it'll give
a list of symptoms commonly
associated with those but then you can also
choose your own. It tracks up to, like,
70 different symptoms,
but a lot or
and then you rate it, how you're feeling
Obviously scale 1 step before. You put in
what you took and then and then right
after. And so he... He's got for... If
you're in Canada, for example, all the products
and dis are loaded into that app. So
it tracks all the testing data and stuff
like that. So... Yeah.
It's also useful for producers and and looking
and studies to say, you know, what can
of ratio might be good for this settlement
and that sort of thing. So that That's
a... It's interesting that so we're able to
track a lot of different
ratios of,
products that people used.
And then this 1, we were... No. Is
that down to, like, the batch level 2?
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. If if it's a company
that's regularly submitting their stuff. Yeah. Yep. That's
awesome.
Yeah. And so that it's it's it's it's
useful. Oh so many ways. It's really cool.
Right.
So the
the
we looked at a, combined of inhaled edible
products, so we kinda put it all in
1, but it would be interesting to parse
that out in the you... Nature.
And we looked at a, a range of
canada ratios of including Thc only, Cbd only,
and then natural ratios, So you might... In
the data, you might say, like, a 25
to 1. That's that's a very high Thc
cannabis, but it's still a natural ratio. So
got some measurable amount of Thc and other
Cbd and other cannibal that's in there. But
we're really just looking at Thc and Cbd
as well, and which it's is something I
think is often not enough, but it's when
more often than not.
And
and going all the 1 to 1 and
and on the other end of things.
And what we found in this data set
was there was an overwhelming preference for Thc,
Very, very strong preference. And and very high
in the Thc only
I note that to a product availability.
What's what's pushed in dis,
you, there's a higher margin in dis in
in for some in some ways sometimes. So...
And then the convenience factor,
there as well. So I think that's part
of it
And then that's also primarily what's Edible. Right?
They use just the as well because then
they can have an even measure of dosage
even though it may not be the best
delivery.
Method.
So while that was used the most often,
not in every case was it the most
preferred, but I always scored very high.
But when you when you look at other
ones, what
often score equally high
and
or better with less...
Dosages,
was natural ratios or a 1 to 1.
Cbd only often also didn't perform very well.
In general.
Then what was... We also looked at gender
differences,
and was really fascinating here was,
so for pain,
I just... I wanna make sure I get
it right. Yeah. No. To you take a
look.
We found in anxiety...
Like I said,
Thc only
performed
really high,
among
it performed better and for for women
than it did for,
for men, which was interesting. And I'm sorry.
For...
Then then the Cbd did.
And then it was somewhat reversed
for the inflammatory pain where
men found it, found a better
result, and efficacy from higher Cbd in Thc,
and and women found high higher Thc or
interest
inflammation too, which is... So
that doesn't say anything in particular other than
it's really important that we continue to examine
gender differences
because they're... Whenever we do there are. Particular
I I believe that
it's been a long time since I looked
at what it was,
but
there's a study that looked at
blood levels.
And women have... Will yield higher levels of
Thc from equal dosages often in their blood.
So they're... So there's...
It's just really important that we look at
those differences so that we can better understand
how to help people.
So what I... For example, so if you
had somebody with high anxiety,
you might not suggest that they use a
high Thc product. But with this data, you
could you could
feel better about that or when they're telling
you that that's what they're using. You might
not. Oh, you shouldn't do that.
And sorry to circle back, but I believe
you were saying that, you know, you know,
a lot of these symptoms say are similar
to other conditions like p
or, you know, inflammation and things like that.
But the... What was effective for,
you know,
for that versus what's effective for lyme was
different. So, I mean,
if if someone is at the stage where
it's sort of more persistent lyme and that
may have been
un diagnosed before, is that something that they
could get tested for to kind of get
a better Yep.
Absolutely. Yes. Yeah. And so I... You know,
anybody...
So I I
I've been a therapist for a long time.
This how I kinda... Oh, no. That's why
I got into the education of this because
I realized
as I was sick that I had must...
I know I had seen so many people.
That's it had this because there's really strong
psychiatric
presentations.
And so whenever if somebody...
If somebody gets this far along and so,
they're gonna have anxiety
or
insomnia,
depression is very, very common
in line. The fact there's that guy a
Columbia Brian Fallon who
has done studies where he he draws a
positive link.
Which is a pretty daring thing to do.
So
that it's... Anytime people have a kind of
persistent mental health disorder with a,
not clearly diagnosed
or or a syndrome type illness that's chronic.
It's... And, especially if you live in the
Northeast
or spend a lot of time there. It's
worth checking.
Right. You know? And and and that that
can be a challenge to get people to
look at.
It that... Though, the tide is changing slowly.
It has looked at more and more, especially
up in this area.
And now. So once people kinda get to
this persistent or post treatment stage, is it
then just all about
managing symptoms,
Yeah. Yeah. So I mean, it's it's complicated.
Some people get a lot better
when they they take antibiotics. And and... But
there's a way that the illness works that
there's a stage in treatments where,
and it wax as a away. It cycles
where you... It pre symptoms, so you feel
a lot worse
for a while. And then
before you feel better,
And at the length of time that goes
on is different for some people, and and
a lot of people get
get really discouraged and don't continue their treatments.
And so really very. And some people can't
don't get any better. Some people hit a
wall, and they they don't get any better.
Or there are certain things they could do
that they don't do, You know, like, major
diet changes and things like that.
So it is really really variable.
This is all I can say is it's
a... It's all very
individualized treatment.
Which is 1 of the reasons cannabis is
so helpful.
So, like,
before I was diagnosed,
you know, I I would use cannabis for
the thing, that we would always use cannabis
for you to have fun.
And relax on the mind and he'll be
sleep. But,
when when I was diagnosed, I was taking
you know, prescriptions for pain. The nerve pain
terribly hard to treat.
I was taking
prescriptions for sleep, and and
things that help me stay awake.
Awful.
It's really awful.
Yeah. Because that be... I be the basically
if pharmacy asleep during the day, and I'm
unable able to sleep at night. And when
I when I understood that I lyme disease,
I stopped taking all those things,
and I was able to manage all of
my symptoms
with Canvas.
And and I would Right. So I was
able to get through all that antibiotic treatment,
you know, the nausea and the
the the the... It can really cause, you
know, Low, moon. I I was able to
get through and manage that really well with
with using canvas.
And is that, you know, a combination Thc
Cbd?
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I I... For me,
it was... It's, you, it's pretty much high...
I used a lot of high Cbd flower
and a lot of high thc flour. I
I'm am not able to use edible. I'm
1 of those people that... I, could eat
Yeah. And that nothing happens.
That is generally the the best for people.
Although, with when you have a lot of
medications, that 1 of good things about canvas
is you can use it in a method
that's not going to try cause
dangerous drug interactions we're we're by inhaling it.
So you bypass the liver. That's, so that's
1 a good advantage.
But... Yeah. It really it managed pain. It
helped me sleep.
It can,
help...
You know, lower immune inflammation without lowering your
immunity because steroid treatments when you have an
infection aren't an option. Alright? So it's a...
It, really fills in a lot of gaps
for people with this kinda chronic illness.
Yeah. No. And that's true cannabis in general.
Right? It is very useful for sort of
these
tough to treat
diseases. Yeah. It's not... It's...
And anyway know, my... I do a lot
of education for health professionals and then what
I always start by saying is it doesn't
cure anything. But it's
it's so just the 1 of the best
symptomatic treatments for almost everything.
Mh. In many ways.
Alright. Well, David, winding down here,
any sort of
closing thoughts or maybe things we didn't cover
with respect to Lime or or the data
that... I would say look for more. I
am, myself and and the person dave David
Berg that runs strain print, we're gonna be
examining more symptoms, and and
We're looking for academic partners to help, publish
this stuff in the literature beyond you know,
posters at conferences, but Be at more conferences
with my posters as well So at the
cannabis
clinicians conference in
October and Baltimore.
And
yeah. So...
Excellent... No, the strain print database. Is that
something that's publicly available or... The database is
not publicly available The app is.
And and you can certainly contact David Berg,
he loves working with people and sharing the
data and, and finding ways to get it
out there. So I heard anybody... That's interested
in looking deeper at the data and finding
out if it can help them out too.
Contact David berg or myself and,
or go through the stream print dot c
a,
website. And... Yeah. It's a it's a Ray
rachel. 1 of the largest
databases of of natural
cannabis data. He's got, like,
I... So
remember, I said nothing had ever been done.
So when I asked them,
do you have any
any numbers of people diagnosed with like lime?
Oh, like, 5000,
over 5000.
So the the end on this on these...
Or we're over 5000.
Yeah.
So this he's good... There's, like, over 2000000
data points, and he's like, like, 80000
something in patients. It's it's pretty impressive.
Yeah. No. That sounds like a great resource.
I'd love to love to talk with them,
love to have them out of Canada next
year. Oh, yeah Yeah. Yeah. You should you
should give me you should give me a
call. Yeah. I definitely will. I hope we'll
see you there too. Oh, yes. I will
I will be there. Alright, David. Again, thanks
so much for the time.
Definitely put some links in the show notes
for people to learn more about your work
and and the other resources that you shared.
And Yes. Send me an email. I'll send
you. I'll send you some resources. I Awesome.
And like I said, hope to see you
down in in Cayman in again next year.
Alright. Thank you, sir. Alright.
Bye.