Again
at the end of the episode that's technical
queen's. Hello, and welcome to building the game
a documentary podcast.
As sometimes, I am your host, Emily. And
today, I am joined by the wonderful Ro
Shock. Hey, Ro?
Hey, Emily. Good to talk to you again.
It's been like, forever. III
never see you.
I know it's been at least a week.
No. It's been less than a week since
I spent 6 hours in a car with
you driving to Ohio. So
Yeah. Whatever will we talk about, I haven't
seen you in forever.
Well, I mean, luckily, we do have a
topic that's not us talking about being in
a high. So I think we'll be alright.
That's true. If you listen to 2 episodes
ago, you heard all about us being in
Ohio
together at our booth no. What we're here
to talk about today is our...
How is the year going? So Ro and
I did the
kick off the year, what are our plans
for 20 24.
And,
Jason was like, hey, Maybe maybe you could
also fill us in part way along the
way, and we'll do another 1 of these
at the end of the year to sort
of,
put a bow on it, a Christmas or
New Year's bow as it were.
Some sort of bow, a not a denomination
bow. I don't know.
A bow.
I'll put a partridge.
Yeah on it. Exactly. 1 partridge.
Yeah. So Ro, why don't you kick us
off with you know, a reminder of what
you were trying to do this year?
Yeah. Yeah. So, I went back and and
listened.
I mostly remembered, but,
the 1 I forgot slightly.
I... That's the 3 things. I don't... I
will just kinda do 1 at a time.
And we can go back and forth a
little bit, but
I'd said, the 3 things I wanted to
work on this year is I wanted to
pitch more.
I a bunch of designs
that are pitch and hadn't been as good
about
getting a meeting set up with people. So
I wanted to fix that.
I said I was gonna help a friend
with
their kind of game company.
The 1 about art and culture and games
and and that stuff. That was number 2.
And number 3 that I was considering
starting a
small publishing company myself,
with 2 player...
Yeah. 2 player games,
small box, small price,
And yeah. So I'll just start with the
first 1.
I'm sure we'll get into the other ones
later. Yep. The... So
So far, Would give myself like, a b
minus on this.
Was a performance review? Excellent. Yeah. Yeah. No.
I mean,
III have this on on my, like, Twitter
profile, but, intros inspection is a super superpower,
So it's always good to be reflective.
So, yeah, I would say, I I did
end up going to gamma, which was, Gamma
Expo.
Hadn't been planned in January when I had
made this and I also did end up
going to Detachment con.
And, actually,
I did some pitching at both of those,
and actually, 1 publisher,
has a couple of of games from Gamma
that Ended up sending later.
And
there's a little bit of snap too. That
won't make it a long story, but, like,
I... They said they wanted to copy the
2 games, so boxed it up Fedex sit
out there. They fat they. They the Fedex
said it delivered, and then, like, you know,
big publishers get busy and it's, like,
couple weeks later they're like, hey. We can't
find that we moved offices and it's gone.
And I'm like, oh my god.
The 1 was just a car game. Like,
that was a big deal, but the other
1 was, like, a much more difficult prototype
to make.
It had some custom pieces in it I
was like, oh my god. But, actually,
So yep, I... They... They... It messaged me
a couple weeks before origins, and I was
like, listen,
I'll get you 1, but you're gonna have
to wait to have to order it. They
have too much stuff to do.
And so, actually, I was at Origins, I
got an email that they said, someone someone
in the company
walked in 1 day and said, here's a
box. It has your name on it.
And it was just the games. So they
ended up finding it, but, like,
I did order new cards that I now
don't need, but whatever.
So yeah. So I've I've had some some
games go home with publishers, and
I've pitched a couple things at On pub.
And March.
And some... We had
Clarence and I are working on a c
design. That's a party aim.
Actually, I guess the social introduction game. And
so we've had some interest in that from
different people,
and some people have kicked back or whatever.
But, I think I've done some of that.
I did try to set some stuff from
origins, but I was pretty busy with booth
planning,
and I didn't really get any responses from
the people I did reach out to. So
that's
that's yeah, not... I didn't do it as
much there as I would... What I wanted
them to. I think the big challenge for
me is,
I'm much more comfortable, like,
pitching in person, like, you know, building relationship
with people and just, like,
Hey. Like, I have this game and and
if I have... I tend to have a
lot of games with me, so I can,
like, easily pivot from game a to game
B if, like, they're not interested in that
1.
And so, like, I feel more comfortable than.
Some of the... Some people are much better
about, like,
blind emailing,
everybody in the corporate doesn't inc until they
get somebody to, like, play it on screen
top or something and, like,
it's not rejection or anything like that. Like,
Don't... If somebody does like my game, that's
fine, but that part that's just like, doesn't
sound fun to me. It's like,
That sounds awful.
So, yeah, I I tend to try to
do more in person pitching with a little
bit of, like, facing a name kind of
sitting and sitting down with somebody. So, yeah.
Well, we'll see. I, you know, 1 thing
that's... I'm not currently planning to go to
Gen con, So I'm not gonna have a
chance to pitch there.
And so then things kind of, like,
thin out a little bit
to the rest of the summer. So definitely
gotta pitch more packs.
I guess I won't get too much into
what we're gonna do for the second half
of the year. But... Yeah. So I did
do... I'd have done probably more pitching this
year than I have any other previous year.
So
that's a baby step forward, and I need
to get better, and I need to
send more emails.
But, yeah, I don't know.
This is a different conversation that that me
and you had on the way out to
Ohio of, like,
you know,
what percentage of games
ever really got signed when that very first
an initial point of contact was a cell
sheet.
Because, like, to me that seems like
that just can't be the the the majority
of things. Right? Like, the that a cell
sheet on a cold email like led to
a game getting signed. By somebody who's not
already well well note in the industry. Right?
So... Right. Anyway, I... Yeah. Good.
No. No. I just finished finishing that. So,
yeah. That was the first thing.
I did do better.
So good for me.
I still have room for improvement, So
over to you.
Well, so I didn't even do the homework.
I didn't even go back and listen to
what I said I was gonna do this
year because I was like, I know what
I said I was gonna do this year.
I don't know what Said I was gonna
do this year. But I'm gonna follow along
with this thread, and I've got some notes
as well. So
I know 1 of the things that I've
been trying to do is
build a larger backlog of games, like, a
larger library so that I have stuff to
pitch, and
I would not even give myself a b
plus on that. I would give
well, I don't know if I'd give myself
a grade on it. I would say,
opportunity for improvement.
But I... I've learned. I've learned a bunch
of stuff. Right? So
these past 6 months,
you know, I spent a lot of time
focusing on some publishing stuff.
So I focused a lot more on
pirates of the high teens and knit circle,
because knit circle was going through development the
first quarter of this year.
And as was pirates, So, basically, I did
development
for a lot of time during the first
half of the year,
which I can certainly talk about
but I I didn't find that I had
as much time to work on new games.
I did
Well, I think most people know. I quit
my job,
midway through midway through the,
the the first craft of the year. And
so
So there's been more time, but there was
also a lot of, like,
you know, I had to, like, wrap things
up at my job, and I had a
bunch of travel, and I had a bunch
of, like, personal and family things that happened
that, you know, take time and energy and
things like that. So, you know, I had
hoped that coming into Gen con, I always
gonna have 3 or 4 new games that
I could take around and pitch. And, realistically,
I'm gonna have
1,
which is cutting flowers And I don't know
if I'm gonna pitch that because it feels
very in line with,
the Peacock games brand.
And so that might just be 1 that
I'm gonna put on my own
docket, which again was not the plan. The
plan is to pitch as well.
I did spend a bunch of time on
a game that
I ended up putting on the shelf, So
I think that was a great
experience. A great learning, a great sort of
understanding my own process us and how long
it takes me to work through a game.
I I think realistically, I don't have a
game
ready
in less than 3 months. Like, I just,
I I can't get it through my whole
process to where I'm comfortable showing it to
a publisher
in less than 3 months. So I think
for me that puts
unplugged on the radar as sort of the
next big
pitching opportunity and that also gives me a
little bit of, like, breathing room.
That being said, I've got some
other designs that I was working, right, like
cross stitch
and good kitties
that I just haven't gotten an opportunity to
test in about 3 months here.
In part because,
you know, I was having I'm having feelings
about 1 of them, I had, you know,
I sort of ended pub on a rough
note with cross stitch.
And so
I just haven't
have the sort of emotional bandwidth to pick
it back up. And then good kitties, I
just haven't had the sort of like, I
need to sit down and and and work
on it. So My, My sort of short
term goal for Gen con is to look
both of those in the eye and see
what I can do
with them. I
I feel good that I may be able
to have a revamped version of cross stitch
ready for Gen con where I do have
an opportunity to show it.
To some folks.
And then again, good kitties is probably gonna
be in
the hawk line. And so you know, that
also feels like I get to set the
timeline on that now because I've pitched it
to myself. And me as the publisher said,
yes, I I do wanna publish that at
some point
so
so I think that's the piece that I
hadn't quite expected. So I I really thought
I was gonna have, like, 5 new games
by now, and I and I don't,
but I do feel like I have a
more realistic sense of what it takes for
me. To bring a new game forward.
And so that that makes me feel pretty
good. And I and I'm I'm excited about
cutting flowers. I think it's got
legs,
and so I... It's 1 I can... I'm
excited to see through.
So
so have I pitched to anybody? No. I
have not
might I pitch to someone at Gen? Yes.
I might.
But
I do not have a backlog of 5
games. I have 1 new game. But it's
a game I'm very excited about, and I
did work on
a couple others and put them on the
shelf and so that's progress.
In my mind.
Yeah. For sure. I mean, that's something that
if people have heard me on the podcast
are in person different times, like,
I always say that 1 of 1 of
the more difficult things in game design especially,
you know, as the designer out there pitching
stuff, is to, like,
keep momentum. And so anything you can do,
keep momentum and move anything forward
week every week.
Great plug for the building the game, Tuesday
night, accountability check.
Even if you just come in and say,
like, you worked on 1 thing or you
fix some cards or whatever, Like,
anything you can do and get excited about
whether it's a new designer or an old
design. Like, sometimes it's a s. Right? Some
games are just a pain in the butt.
And they just like never do what you
want them to.
So, yeah.
If if if something's making you feel energized
about game design or your goals in game
design, then, like, do it. That's always my
rule. Don't listen to someone say, Like, if
making cook your cards look better, is making
you you a happy and moving your game
forward,
then do it. I don't care what something
that sense. I agree. I agree.
Should I take the lead on the next
topic or do you wanna go back to
it? Because you had 3 points so we
can go back to your number 2? We
can alternate... We can alternate then. That that
way, there won't be a long window of
somebody listening to me, Ramble.
It'll be be broken up by you say
more interesting things.
So the second 5 me rambling.
So 1 of the other things I said
I was gonna do is
help a friend who was starting a a
different publishing,
small publishing company,
about the intersection of games and culture and
art.
And,
that's still kind of moving forward, but a
lot slower than anticipated.
The the first game that's slated to come
out in that line is,
a graffiti, you know, New york City, like,
tagging subway cars kind of, game with with
actual real art from a fairly well known
graffiti artist. And so
obviously,
that's been a major, like, limiting factor for
the
moving forward of this of this project is,
like, waiting for all the the art. And
I think that that's finally mostly been solved,
and then this person also is, like, changed
jobs and moved, so there's some other the
things going on that.
I said or earlier that, like, there was
a potential that long term maybe be
barn quotes might fit into that line, and
we had talked about that. And that still
may may happen.
But
since recording
the the episode in, January first.
Actually, like, there's another game that
we're both really excited about, which is in
this line,
and
didn't exist at the time of this recording.
And so I have a game called Mon,
which is
I'm gonna say... I'm gonna make up a
new term. It's an art and right. So...
It kinda uses some flipping and right stuff,
but you actually make art. If you don't
know who Laundry is go look it up.
Luckily, it's art for people who can't make
art, because all you need to be able
to do is use a ruler and color
in a square a rectangle. So pretty easy.
But it's kinda like a little spatial puzzle
and at the end,
if if you haven't played the game or
seen pictures of it on Twitter
or whatever.
The the playing board that you... That you're
kinda drawing on
as 5 by 7. And so the intent
is literally that, like, at the... At the...
When you're done, you could cut it out
and put it on a. Fridge magnet, and
that is the goal that there's gonna be
a fridge magnet when this game. Whoever publishes
it.
That there's gonna be a 5 by 7
fridge magnet in the box. And her winds
gonna get put in the fridge. Right? And
so, a, it's very for an giant game
very social media friendly, but also, like, it's
it's interesting the choices that you do to
make scoring and get a better, point in
total, but also,
artistic choices. Right? So, like, you get to
kind of choose where you place things. And
yeah. So it it's definitely
1 of those ones, like, a little bit
like, welcome to it and it does kinda
borrow 1 mechanism for that a little bit.
But where everyone has the same inputs and
you all end up with something vastly different,
which for art to me is even more
cool.
So... Yeah. That 1
it's is a easier and b,
it's funny because when I first
when I first kinda said,
to this person, like, hey. I got a
game that I think fits this line. I
said, and I think you're really gonna like
it.
And
his response was, like,
okay.
So was pretty,
un uni enthused initially.
But,
I I forced him to play it at
Tantrum Con several other places, and he's done
a lot of testing with the 2.
And
yeah. A lot people played it On pub.
I think you played it at gamma Expo.
Did. It's a good game. 1. I loved
1. Yeah.
Looks important what 1.
Yeah. I mean, that's a fact You you
always like a gain 20 percent more if
you win.
But it's a lot of fun. I I
know a lot of people have, like,
give give me a lot of really positive
feedback.
Yeah, that that played it.
At pub and stuff too. So that 1,
I think is is totally done. We have
some variability and some special goals and stuff
and, like,
So I think that's still we're gonna move
forward. We have to kinda wait for
all this artwork
stuff to check up
catch up, I guess. And then I'll have
to talk with him and see, like, when
he wants to do the kick kickstarter because
I'm gonna help coordinate some of that stuff.
Which also is is the thing I wanted
to learn more just about, like, how to
interface with
some of the stuff that Emily will have
to deal with too of, like,
reviewers and, you know, influencers and,
you know,
marketing people and and and all that kind
of stuff? Like, how do you go from,
like, having this game. You're ready to put
it up somewhere, but like, you, I have
to do some audience building and figure out
your plan for that stuff. So
that 1 has gone slow and probably will
go slow. So
I, it's possible that that game won't even
kick start this year. And if it does,
it'll be late.
But probably early next year. So
I would say I've been doing that 1
as much as it has existed to do.
Mh. And I accidentally designed, which wasn't my
intent
for the modern game to design a game
for this line.
I had saved a picture on my phone
from months ago where, like, I had seen
something
with his art, Mon art on. And I
was like, that should be a game. And,
like, over the holiday break, I just said,
well, how would work and I just designed
it. So was kind of
accidental for 2, I guess. So
that was my second second goal, which is
continuing a pace as they say.
That's good.
Yeah. I think,
a, I'm just gonna say again. That game
is great, and I love it. And I...
There's something
exciting about when a game
comes together that fast.
Right? That you know, I've been doing pirates
for 2 years now.
But knit circle was a breeze. Right?
And cross stitch has been a,
struggle
and, cutting flowers is just sort of flying
together. So...
And I don't think that, you know, either
game is better or worse than the other.
It's just sometimes they're
Sometimes they're a hall. Right? And sometimes they
just, like,
snap into place in a really cool way.
So I'm pretty sure 1 of the things
I talked about was development,
and that I was gonna be doing a
bunch of game development
at the beginning of this year.
And so I figured I'd talk a little
bit about that,
both from,
you know, knit circle, which I was part
of the development team,
for,
I can now say flat out,
which is very exciting,
because I don't think I could talk about
that back in January.
So knit circle assigned to be the
follow on game to Calico, so it is
knit circle, a calico game.
And so bringing it to flat out. Right?
It was a it was a sort of
breezy tile placement that had a real problem
around scoring.
Right? In that, I couldn't figure out how
to make the scoring such that it was
interesting and replay and, you know, all sorts
of things. Like, it was the scoring was
doing a job,
but it wasn't doing a great job.
And so there there was that sort of
I knew was on the horizon of we
needed to figure out
but then working with flat out. Right? They've
got, you know,
they've got an approach and a style of
game that they do and they have an
audience that they know well.
Right? So there were, you know, some things
that they really wanted to bring in that
I I was excited to do. Right?
But, you know, Calico has sort of 3
ways of scoring. They're like buttons and the
the objectives and the the little cat friends
and stuff like that. So we were,
addressing the scoring by saying, you know, how
can we sort of have multiple scoring systems.
Right?
So so that's been a really interesting journey.
It's been
it's had... It's, like, high moments where I'm
like, oh, we just made a breakthrough. Right?
And it's had. It's like, low moments where
I'm, like, I don't know if this will
ever converge again. Right? We've... You know, we've
taken it apart and, like, put it back
together. And I think it's going in a
good direction, but, like,
it's hard to see it right now.
But, you know, we're we're through it. We
are we are
I think we're basically done. We're testing the
advanced mode right now.
But it also added this interesting dynamic of,
you know, that team.
Is in Seattle on the West Coast and
I'm in Boston.
And so we had to do online play
testing and stuff like that,
And so, you know, it's just been a
journey of getting to know a new team
and work closely with them, and, you know,
they're they're great. I had a great time
But, you know, it was also just like,
everything's happening.
And so so I learned a lot about
how to do development and how
you know, it's it's in some ways, it's
just like game design. Right? We're, like, you
put something in and, like, you go through
this wild journey in the middle and something
different comes out on the other side.
And so, again, it just feels like another
reinforcement of, like, sometimes
just trusting the process,
even when it's taking you through, like,
areas that you're like, I don't know. You're
like, I'm just passing through. Right? I'm just
passing through. Maybe I'm gonna stop here if
it feels good, but maybe I'm just passing
through.
So I did that with Knit circle,
and then I sort of panic did it
on my own with pirates of the high
teens.
So I think just before Gamma expo, sometime
in the early
part of the year, I was sort of
going around to lots of people being, like,
I think I need a developer for pirates.
I don't know how to bring this
to the final close. Right? And I think
I need another set of eyes.
And so I talked to a bunch of
people.
I talked to people that you could pay
lots of money to do development. I talked
to friends that I might be able to,
you know, say, can I give you some
profits from the kickstarter, that kind of thing?
And I wasn't really
landing
on
an answer, but I just kept working on
pirates.
To the point where
I think I've done most of the development
that needs to be done. It's really solid
where it is I've got a couple things
that came out of origins that I wanna...
That I wanna play with, but I think
if I threw them all out and just
shipped the game as it was
just before origins. I think it's a good
game. I think it's a really strong game.
And so
I'm not sure. I need to do a
little bit of, like,
retrospective
looking back at how I did this
because
it just sort of seamlessly went from the
design to the development process
with, I think the added piece hanging over
my head of, like,
No, really, I I just need to make
some decisions. Like, I'm just gonna decide it,
and then that will be
what I'm gonna... What I'm gonna do. And
some of that is getting locked in
by, like, the art. Right? So I've chatted
with a cultural consultant about how to make
the game a little bit more global
I have 72 unique dishes in this game,
and so I've got an artist working on
those. And once we create a dish. Right?
Like,
I can't pay for, you know, a hundred
and 50 different pieces of art as I,
like, waffle my way around
what should be the things. Right? So it's
pieces of the game are starting to lock
down.
And it's it's great. Because now I've got
a little bit more of a constraint system
of, like, I'm probably not gonna change that.
I can change the values associated with that,
but not gonna change
the distribution of flavors in the deck because
I have carefully plotted out all 72 of
these and, like, those need those flavor
ratios need to be locked in. Right? So
I can tweak the points, but I can't
tweak the ratios at this point.
So
so, yeah, I... I you know, I very
intentionally went through development with winning circle, and
I think I very panicked and without realizing
it went through development on pirates.
And so so that was 2 interesting processes
to do at the same time.
I do think, you know, I'm still working
on the...
How do I put pencils down on pirates?
And in fact, Eric last night asked me.
He was like, so when is it
enough? Right? When is it done enough? Because
it'll never be done. Right? But when is
it
you know, this is the Mvp. This is
the the version that goes out.
And
I do think I'm really
close to that. Right? I'm I'm playing with
1 change,
and I think that's
That's it. Right?
So we'll see. Hold me accountable the next
time we chat. Did I actually stop
before Gen con?
Or did I or did I push on
into, you know, forever and ever. But, you
know, the realities of timeline are just...
I gotta get this thing
built so that I can get preview copies
out so that I can get previews to
look at it before I launch my kickstarter
in the fall. And so I just gotta,
like, snap the chalk line,
and that's... I think that's happening in the
next 2, 3 weeks here.
So that's... I don't know. That's been my
development journey.
I've played those 2 games a lot, like,
a lot a lot. A lot. Most of
pub was dedicated to playing those 2 games.
And so,
so many times played those games.
Yeah. So I I think the the 1
thing that
that you're talking about, like,
having outside eyes. Right? And I think that
is important.
But I think that, 1 thing that your
situation is slightly different in the sense that
Sometimes people have an idea for game and
they're gonna maybe it's to first game whatever
they're gonna kick start it. And so, like,
you, they make it. They take it somewhere
they test a little bit. And they're, like,
it's great. Everyone loves it, and, like, they're
ready to just, like, put it up there.
And
a lot of times, it's probably not ready.
Right?
Regardless of, like, just in the general sense
on average.
But I think the I think the 1
thing that you said
were maybe, like,
nec
less need for an external developer is,
the fact that you have taken it so
many places and play it with so many
different people.
Right? Because, like, at some level, like, when
even when you're, like, going to... Like, have
game this ready, and you take its un
pub and say you're playing it after hours
with a bunch of other designers,
And, like, someone's like, hey, you should try
to change this or whatever. I mean, that's
the kind thing you're doing in development anyway.
And so if you've done that with enough
people
you you know, you you're not having the
blind spots that
a neo fight designer might have of, like,
you know, I play this with my friends
and family, and they think it's awesome and
I'm gonna, you know, make a million dollar
kickstarter or whatever. Right? So Yeah Because
you've been working on it a while, and
you've taken at lots of places and put
it in front of lots of different people.
You've gotten basically, like, a bunch of little
for that lack, a better word I'm gonna
say many development sessions. Yeah. And so...
And and... Because they... Even if, like, a
a developer is gonna say, like, let's try
this. Didn't work. Let's try this. Didn't work.
Right? And so
because you've iterate reiterated on that and not
just been stuck inside your own head. Right?
Because I think that's the thing. Always get
blind spots on all our games, I do
it with mine.
So having somebody else, like, say, like, well,
did you try this or could you smooth
this out or whatever?
So that that helps you not be stuck
in that in that lube. So I think
that maybe that's kinda what happened here where
you didn't really need the external person because
you've gotten the same
effect from a bunch of, like, mini sessions
across a lot of people in a lot
of different times.
Yeah.
I think so. And I think, you know,
the other thing is this game has been
through so many iterations. It had dice at
1 point. It had a, you know, a
like a Cas,
draft where you're drafting 2 things from the
same slot. It... I mean, it's just... The
very first game was, like, can you get
enough butter and flour and sugar to, you
know, bake a bake a cake? Right? It
was it was totally different type of sec
collection?
So
so some of that is just, like, it
it's just been through so many different things
that, like,
it's had a full
a full life cycle.
I think the thing that I was looking
for with a developer was
someone to help with the, like, decision anxiety.
Right? Of these places where I'm just I'm
just saying that's it. I've chosen it's the
answer, just someone to go Yeah. I think
that's right. I think that's a good idea.
And
I don't know if I just
ran out of time or ran out of
patients and said that's it. I'm deciding. I'm
using my own judgment,
or maybe I'm more confident in my own
judgment, but I'm I've decided to use my
own judgment,
which is what I was gonna do at
the end of the day.
So now instead of having the doubt of,
you know, someone else disagreed with me, and
I did it anyway. I'm gonna have the
doubt of... Well, I never really got another
opinion, and I did it anyway.
So either way has doubts,
and I just,
you know, This is what I wanna do.
So I'm just gonna own it and make
my choices and,
you know, roll the dice. See how... See
how it lands. Right?
Yeah.
Well, like you said, game... You know, that's
the old right. Games are never finished, or
just shipped.
So, you know, I I think the thing
is, like, you know, make some decisions with
intention and and kinda move forward in
and
you know, can worry about it later or
your next game or second edition or whatever,
but, like, this is gonna be what this
version is gonna be and and that's gonna
be okay.
Yeah.
Alright. Number 3.
The the third and last thing that I
had on my list was
that I was considering this 2 player line
of games,
with a lot of intention and a very
specific focus. 2 player only,
mostly 0 some,
most with a
line or a component of bluff, double bluff
princess bride, I powder or whatever words you
wanna use, kinda moments where, like, you're getting
tight each other's heads a little bit, and
that's the game as much as the the
components on the table.
And
you know, small box
size of a hard back book, 20 dollars,
You, that was kind of the vision.
And so,
I did some stuff with that. Right?
I ain't shared a booth with someone.
They were okay.
That. Could've been
it sounds wonderful whoever they are.
So, like, you know, I I had to
get signs me made An art made for
the signs because I have not artists
and I, you know, got stands made and
shipped from China and all the things. And
yeah. And so
that's where I was at Origins.
I didn't have any... I didn't schedule any
blocks in the input room. I did end
doing some other things, but, like, my focus
was just to try to
go to origins and
kind of, like, put this...
I put 1 or 2 of my games
out, but also, like, just this concept
in general.
In front of people and and, like,
I I had an app to collect emails
if people wanted to.
But my kind of my bigger focus was
just to, like, get people's opinion. Right? Just
to, like, get their feedback, see if they
sounded like this is something they would want
or not want or
if they're ambivalent.
So
I I think generally speaking as far as
the line goes,
I had some really good feedback. Talked to,
a retailer
who was walking around early Thursday morning.
And
I was kind of explaining the line to
him, and I was talking about some the
different games. So like I... I mostly had...
We are we were going heavily pirate themes,
So I had black Beard versus Captain Morgan,
which is, like, again, it plays a little
bit like battleship with bluff.
It's more complicated than that, but that's kinda
how feels to play.
And
so I was demoing that and some other
stuff. I had my 2 player bidding game.
And so anyway, I talked this retailer. Like,
I have this game and, like, each 1
is a different mechanism, so they're not just
all, like, drafting games or something,
and have a different theme, different,
gameplay mechanisms and stuff.
And, like, he was super receptive to it,
Like, this guy would basically... If I had
had games, he would about 10 of each.
I so I explained the pirate game and
he's, like, Oh, yeah. He's like, I would
totally take that, you know, for 20 dollar,
like,
retail pricing. It's like, you yeah. I know
5 people who would buy it this week.
Right? And so
just talking, like, from logistics from his store,
like, he likes to have a section of,
like,
cheaper party games and stuff like that near
the register and, like, some 2 player stuff.
You know, so maybe more like patchwork work
or other things like that. I don't know
for for sure, But he likes to have
a section, like, in the summer for, like,
beach friendly games. Right?
Games that are easy to throw in a
backpack
and play at the bar or
wanna on a table 1 the patio
of your hotel or things like that. And
so, like this this line has that. Right?
It's a small footprint
to play as well as small box to
carry.
And so he was really
he was really jazz. Like,
couldn't wait to give me his email and,
like, hope that he could buy these in
the future. So
that was pretty gratifying. Ryan. So I talked
to some other people. I won't, like, get
get through all of it. Some of it
move on the consumer side,
potential customers walking by, and then a couple
other the people who did have more of
a
industry bent to their perspective.
And so I think by and large, the
the response I got for the people I
did talk to.
Was pretty positive.
Convention like that, it's always hard to tell
as people are walking by. Some people are
just, like,
bored or or knows what they're doing. Overwhelmed.
Yeah. A lot better.
But, I mean, it as far as, like,
you know, I had this, like, tangent goal
of, like, you know, so I'm doing some
audience testing more than audience building. And
I think from us build building, which was,
like, a
tangent goal, like, that didn't go as well.
And, like, prada is just because,
I thought we said this on the hunt
Origins recap call.
Origins was pretty dead.
It was not the numbers that there used
to be... It... It's a
shell of its former self.
There's just a bunch of things that are
really weird. Like, 60 percent of the boots
didn't even have games. There was a lot
of art and jewelry and t shirts and
pictures and swords and
very nerd
gaming
adjacent, but not.
You give... You go walk past a lot
of stuff, not just Artist Row where they
didn't... There was any games. To buy, like
you literally couldn't buy a game. A lot
of dice,
which yeah that's an Rpg, but, like, not
actual, like, board games.
And so
that's kind of frustrating. Like, they had... They
basically took an 80 by 80 area of,
like,
pretty prime time.
Boost space, and they set it up with
kids games like giant gen, which unfortunately was
near us and scared people constantly.
And so, like,
III know they're starting to do some stuff.
They made some hires this year. I'm talking
about gamma. And... But they need to figure
out what they want this con to be
because right now, I, like,
I don't know if I'm going back even
to, like, hang out the prob room next
year, Like, unless something happens where I need
to meet with somebody, like,
Pub had an amazing space, opening right up
on the main hall, right across some hall,
be extra exit, which is like the main
1.
And, like, I was like, man, Like, when
it's busy, they're gonna be people waiting at
tables to play games and just didn't happen.
I mean there were people there, but it
wasn't, like, it wasn't any busier than when
it went on unpublished was hidden in the
back. So
Yeah. Gamma needs to figure out what they
wanna be and and who they're trying to
serve. I think this con has turned into
This is my personal opinion. So at me,
not anyone else.
Has turned into a hangout play games convention.
Meaning,
people aren't coming there to get much of
anything. Maybe they'll buy 1 game, but, like,
they're just gonna go hang out in hall
c and play games with their friends. And,
like, that's what they're doing.
And that's cool for them.
But, like, that's not great for the the
retail side of of people trying to, like,
get product out and get get their art
out into a world. So...
Yeah. And and the thing is, like, the
boost are or cost prohibitive. Right? Like,
1 last thing I'll say, like, that I
kinda taken away from this. My my initial
thing with this line was, like, kind of
a 3 pronged detect.
So if I do it, things progress you
know, a kick start, and then,
obviously, I could sell. From my website, these
are small box games. So, like, it won't
take up a lot of storage for me
to warehouse at myself at my house.
And then I was like, oh, like, these
gains would be a great con pickup. Right?
20 dollars. Yep. Ham try 20 dollar bill
walk away. I'll tell I'll handle the tax
whatever, and, like, could play at the bar
that night or whatever. I think that's true.
I still think that that could have a
pretty big upside. But the problem is
Financially, it doesn't make sense. Right. I'm selling
these games for 20 bucks. And so, like,
let's see even just say I'm making 15.
Like, I'm doing all the work. Right? Just
me. And,
you know, a full size 10 by 10
booths,
You know I was like, 1500 bucks. So
I have to sell a hundred copies of
a game. I have saw hundred games.
Take to 0
to not lose money.
And if the numbers are, like, they were
this
this past weekend, next year, like, III mean,
I don't know if no could do that.
Like,
and, obviously, getting bigger booth or further upfront
or whatever, like, you're just you're paying more.
So
I think that that's... That makes it really,
really challenging, especially for an Andy indie publisher,
At they have a special thing if you're
the first time exhibit, and that's a lot
cheaper, but still, it's like, there was a
person next to us selling some really cool
candles that were, like,
they were awesome. Blob with a thing inside
it, and as it melted, the thing came
out and, like,
really cool stuff. And, like, they were there
on the
600 dollar first time exhibit
special.
And they basically said they didn't sell enough
to profit to even cover that. They were
not gonna come back next year.
And so
that really changes the math. And so 1
thing that I've probably decided is that, like,
it would take some
pretty special
circumstances
for me to ever sell this line at
a convention. Mh. And, like, Origins is 1
of the cheaper ones. Right? So, like, gen
cons, like, way more expensive. And packs on
unplugged, you can't even get a booth, and
it's gonna be more expensive too. Right? So
then you're not talking about a hundred copies
of your again, you're talking about 200 or
300
And, like, and that's to get to 0.
Right? That's to not lose money. And yeah,
it's a marketing expense, but, like, that's a
lot of marketing expense. And then that's also,
like,
you at the booth 8 hours a day,
or you're losing giving more money to pay
somebody to be there. And so,
yeah. I I think that it kind of
my eyes up to that a little bit
that maybe
selling this line
as a small person. Right? Like, I think
you have to kinda go bigger go home
is is kinda where my mindset is at
this point. And so as a small person,
like, I I just don't know that, like,
you can make it work. If you can
get into, like, the rising showcase, it, like,
packs some plug and stuff like that. That's
kind of a free thing, then sure. That's
great. Like, you can get some eyeballs and
stuff like that. But there's so many people
that get into that right each year. Or
so... It's so small. It's vanishing small. Right?
That it's it's essentially a lottery. Right?
Yeah. I think they take, like, 6 people
4 or something. So... Yeah. Yeah. So that
was kind of my experience with that. I
I still
I'm testing the waters with moving this line
forward, but I think the 1
the 1 leg of the 3 legged stool
I was thinking would work.
I think I think makes sense. I think
it is a great con,
kinda pick up,
me having a booth doesn't work.
To sell a 20 dollar game. Now the
other thing that could be
is if I had a good relationship with
the publisher,
not really c branding thing, but, like, it's
somebody who's selling 60 dollar euros, and they,
like, want something else. Like, people are walking
by and, like, they want something that people
can kinda, like, grab on the way and
checkout out. So maybe if I could deal
up a relationship with somebody like that we're,
like,
they have my 20 dollar games there and
I give them 5 bucks a copy, and
I don't do anything.
But, like, it gets people to their booth
and also, like, while they're there, maybe they,
like, check out a demo of 1 of
these bigger games.
Since already paying for the space. Right? So
I don't know. That could be a possibility.
This this isn't something that I wanna go
through the
whole thing of c branding and distribution and
all the other kind of stuff. That's not
my vision for this line, but...
Yeah. So definitely some lessons learned there.
And yeah, I'll let you talk more about
the booth stuff now on your side. Yeah.
So I think my
my sort of parallel
to this is, you know, I've been figuring
out how to launch Cock.
And
So I've been doing the convention circuit. I've
been I've been trying to figure out how
to get
followers how to build organic following and things
like that. So really what I've been doing
for the past 6 months is learning about
marketing
and figuring out what's gonna work for me.
So I tried my hand at some of
the convention
marketing,
I will say origins has been the best
for that. So I've got... I'm up
almost 60 kickstarter followers, which, you know, if
you think about cost per follower, that's not
great. Right? But, it's more than I got
going to, like Phoenix Fan Fusion, which is,
like, a Comic style event, a fan event.
And there I got, you know, 15 or
so.
For an entire weekend of demoing in, like,
a gaming hall as opposed to, you know,
short demos at
a booth. Right? So the difference was
a Phoenix Fan Fusion. I had people sit
down and actually get to play the game
for 30 minutes.
So you only got through, like 10 a
day,
or, you know, maybe 12 something like that.
But,
whereas I did a ton of demos, a
ton of demos, 2 minute demos at the
booth.
And so I got my, you know, sort
of 60 kicks starter followers and, like, a
hundred more people on my mailing list, which
is a big win for me.
But again, it was a it was a
big investor Right? It a full week for
me when you count the driving and and
all of that.
So...
But, you know, it feels like it feels
like there's momentum.
I did a number of
interviews there that are gonna go up on
various sort of social media things.
I've started my tiktok, and I've started doing
Instagram Reels.
So
this week after Origins was a little low
for that because I was sort of, like,
recovering.
But I've got a plan sort, you know,
Monday that I'm gonna be more active on
social media.
All that being said, everything I'm hearing and
reading is that organic social media is not
necessarily closing the gap these days in terms
of getting you to successful kickstarter.
So I'm also looking at, you know, how
do I set myself up to do
no kidding advertising on Facebook and Instagram and
maybe b gigi g.
So
so, yeah, It's it's just sort of, you
know, 1 step after the other.
Pushing myself forward on this. Some of it
is easier for me. Some of it's really
hard.
And I'm struggling with
the activation energy on it.
And and I'm just struggling with the... It's
new to me. Right? So which things are
worth
which things have a good return on investments?
And how much of this can I learn
from other people versus having to, like,
experience and fail at it
myself?
So,
you know, I'm sort of at the
work more on the organic media, or organic
marketing
start figuring out how to do the actual
marketing,
because that doesn't actually need to be in
place
more than a couple months before the kickstarter,
but that time is coming up.
And then, you know, how am I gonna
do other stuff? Am I gonna do podcasts?
Am I gonna do... You know, what other
sort of
circuit can I do to get more eyeballs
on this?
Part of this journey,
has been
diving into board game geek in a way
that I haven't done, so I'm not, you
know, I'll just confess.
I'm not a big board game geek user.
Whenever we're, like, looking up like, Should we
play this game? You know, what what do
we know about it? Like, Eric is the
1 who's, like, I'm gonna go find out.
And so he does he does the research.
He comes back.
And,
yeah. So I have figured out how to
get my designer page up and a page
for my company and a page for my
game. And then all of a sudden,
doing that, got a little spike in attention.
Right, of, you know, someone did a, hey,
here's new stuff on
Geek, and
And so so I've been sort of figuring
that out. I I'm still not convinced that
the core
Bg g audience
is
the target audience for pirates. Right? I I
think I think they fit into it I
think I get a lot more excitement
outside of people who... You know, their favorite
game is terra Mars or Brass Birmingham or
something like that. Right? The what I saw
at origins is the light in people's eyes
when they're like, I love afternoon tea. This
art
speaks to me. I love
pirates and tea. I love... You know, I
love our flag means death. Right? And, again,
I think lots of those people are on
Bg g, but I I think I don't
I think I don't really know who's on
Bg g. Right? I think that's... I've got
an impression
that it's people who like heavy eros.
And
and I don't know. I just... I think
that's what I think.
So
so I'm I'm learning more about Bg g
or trying to.
And and just trying to, like,
get some momentum and figure out how to
ride that. Right? Because I The other thing
is like,
the timing
of knit circle being announced
and what I'm trying to do with pirates,
I'm trying to see if I can sort
of, like,
gust off them. Right? Make it such that,
like,
when I'm doing stuff around knit circle, right,
in and off moment, I can be like,
hey. I tell you about pirates or, like,
people came up to my booth or pirates.
And I was like, well, if you're excited
about this, you should check out knit circle.
Right? And I'm just trying to, like,
make it happen
together and hope that maybe I can get
a little bit of a signal boost
that way.
Because it's...
You know, there's there's a lot.
And, you know, I won't say that there's
a lot riding in this. Right? If this
kickstarter fails if this game fails, like,
you know, it's not it's not the end
of me in game design or game publishing
or, you know,
as a person. Right? I I just
I'm trying to, like, capture and harness
what feels like forward momentum,
and and
and ride that through. Ride that wave. Right?
And maybe make it bigger.
So
so, yeah, just a lot of
marketing,
publicity,
figuring out how to talk to people, who
to talk to, how to get on their
calendars,
all sorts of things, which has a lot
mixed into it that I just
have a hard time with. I I sometimes
have that, like,
inbox anxiety or, like, I see 10 new
emails in my inbox and I'm like, I
can't I can't look at these right now.
Like, it... Because I know it'll take me
2 hours to respond to them,
and and I had other things I wanted
to do. And then I feel bad you
know, later in the day that I didn't
respond to them immediately, and so then, you
know, it just sort of gets
really, really stressful. So trying to work through
my own,
fond stuff around that,
has been an eye opening experience, and I'm
I'm not there yet. I have people I
need to email back
but we're recording this on a Sunday, and
so I've told myself
Monday morning. First thing I'm gonna do is
send a bunch of these emails.
And it's gonna happen, and I'm gonna get
it done,
and that's just what I need to do
to make this work. So, yeah, I've been
I think I'm getting... I think I'm making
progress on the the marketing and brand building
journey.
It's
a little bit slower than I expected,
and some of that is my own
slowness.
And so that's again, just a thing I'm
sort of filing away that I'm learning about
myself, and I'm learning about the industry and
just sort of how do I estimate enough
time
to make all these things work. Right?
But, yeah, It feels it feels positive, and
it feels like I haven't lost momentum.
And I'm slowly gaining, And I think the
thing is just gonna be figuring out what
the timing on that wave really looks like.
Right? Is this a wave I can ride
to September? Do I need to take it
to October? Is it really better for Next
may. Right?
What
what is the right sort of
cadence and timing and and sort of things
on this
this journey that I'm on.
So...
Yeah.
I think you're probably right.
Having been at the booth the whole week
and seeing the people come up and and
get the demo and things like that. You
know, it was interesting. The 1 the 1
lady that came up with her daughter,
the daughter kinda dragged her over, and
it was interesting because I think you even
asked her.
I think later in the week you were
asking people, like,
little bit more, like, what are you like
What are you looking for in a kickstarter?
Or what gets you excited? And just trying
to do that market research, which was smart.
And
like, her answer was
cool art. Yeah. Right. And I think that's
that's generally not the the the Bg crowd
by and large. Right? Like, the people who
are going to forums and, like,
talking about games being broken or good or
bad or whatever.
And so I think that there is a
certain percentage of people who,
maybe they've heard a board game geek, but
they're most checking out the cool stuff, the
interesting, pretty stuff on kickstarter.
And so, like, to me, like Bg g
ads,
seem like, less productive use of your money
than say something like Facebook ads. Right? Like,
you said, like,
some people were, like, super into the pirates.
Stuff.
But I think you had just as many
people stop by
who, like, paused
specifically because, like, it said, tea. And they're
like, I love tea.
Even though you don't really need that, like,
eat or drink or really do anything that...
You know, it's super into, like, the full
tea, like, thing. Right? It wasn't like a
cup of tea sitting there. Right? Yeah.
But people came over,
because, like, it resonated with a thing that
that they care about. Right? And so I
think that that's
that's smart. And then then definitely something that,
like, I think you're you're focusing on, I
think that that's great. Right? Like,
kinda meeting people where they are. Right? Not
assuming that,
the certain percentage of people who like Tea
will eventually
find your game, but, like, trying to be
more
intentional with targeting them in the first place.
So
III would agree with you that, like,
it seems much more that those other groups,
are your target audience, and the people who
will will be
jazz to get your game as opposed to,
like, you know?
Yeah. And and I think that sort of
pulls 2 threads for me. Right? So 1
is I sort of
ended up pitching
pirates during un pub,
just, like, there was a publisher who had
sort of expressed interest And Was like, well,
if you wanna see it. Right?
And, you know, the conversation that we had
there was they just weren't sure
how to find those people.
Right, of how do you find people who
are into pirates and like gateway games? How
do you find people that are into tea
and like gateway games and how do find
people that are into both? And our sort
of gateway games. Right? And that's just not
what
their company's marketing apparatus
was set up for.
So
that I think was, you know, useful knowledge.
I I think the other piece was that
I got out of origins
was the question of who
who buys the games
in your house and how does that process
work? Right? Because by the end of origins,
I had people
coming back and bringing someone else. Right? Bringing
their husband, bringing their game group. Right? Bringing
people
that they wanted to make sure that those
people were tracking the game
so that it could actually... You know, so
that they could remember to back it, you
know, all of these things, and so they
could sort of vote for, like, this is
a game we wanna have in our house
on our table, you know, those sorts of
things.
And it
it kind of reminded me of, I think
I think I've told you about this Ro,
but It kinda reminded me about there's a
group of
war hammer folks that I know here in
Boston
that, you know, 2 years ago at Christmas,
every single guy from the War hammer group
bought their spouse wings fan.
Because they were, like, it's a game that
I think
would be of interest to my spouse
based on things that they like. They like
birds and they like flowers and they like,
and they don't like
brass Birmingham.
Right, or whatever.
And so I'm I'm seeing a little bit
of that dynamic because I also had a
bunch of people who walked up and said,
my sister loves tea, my wife loves pirates,
my whatever, whatever. Right? They were they were
seeing it as a theme,
that had interest in someone that they cared
about.
And and I think that there's lots of
people who want to play games
with the people in their life
and they can't always interest them in terra
forming Mars. Right? And and I don't mean
to align terra forming Mars or Brass Birmingham.
Right? Wonderful and great games,
but not always what everyone is looking for.
And so
So I don't know. III don't have the
full
package, you know, what am I gonna do
with that insight, but I do feel like
there's these little,
bubbles per in my mind that I think
I'm gonna be able to use to
to figure out my advertising strategy and where
what ads I'm putting up and wear and,
like, photos shoot. Right? I probably need to
take some pictures of my game
with a t set.
Right? With the 3 tiered thing with some
cakes and some
tea, and, you know, a nice tea pot
and stuff like that, which is
probably not on most people's, like, when I
take my publicity photos, make sure I have
my fine China setup.
So, you know, that kind of thing, and
and I came up with an idea with
a friend of, like,
having
you know, having some, like, video snippets of
people playing, but like,
dressed as pirates. Right? And, like, having a
grand old time, like,
doing a little bit of, like, y. I
serve you my, you know, H Eat. Right?
Whatever it is. So
I I think there's some things there as
opposed to just, like, look, it's a family
playing a board game. Right? Look, it's it's
people who are cool and in their twenties
and thirties. Playing a board game. Right? It's
it's, like, speak to those people and catch
their attention
with these ads.
So
I think I'm learning something. That's my takeaway.
I think I've learned something. I don't know
what I learned, but I think I learned
it.
Well, yeah. I agree with you. I think
part of it is, like, even if once
you know it, like, how can you leverage
it? I think that's the key harder part.
Right? So
this something else we talked about in, like,
not that this system, like, very insight. But
1 thing that I that I said, like,
that I think would be cool in in
the game, like, yours is, like, if you
had a small little, like,
recipe book of, like, how to make a
water sandwich and cut it correctly and, like,
what tea it goes with or whatever. And,
like... So when you're sitting down to play,
you can kinda make it more of, like,
an, you know,
like, an experience, not just like, you're playing
the game or whatever. Right? And, like, that's
the kind of thing you could put on
your blog or in your newsletter, whatever. Like,
you know, try this afternoon tea or whatever
with your kids or your your friend or
whatever else because it doesn't remind me too.
Like, 1 thing that, like,
I'm talking to someone else about
with kind of the idea for, like, barn
quilt. Right? And so this is kinda also
ties into crust stitch and or
knit circle at some level 2.
It's like, sometimes,
like you said, well my aunt likes t.
And so is this a game that I
could play with my aunt or my grandma
or something like that?
But, like, could you get your game into,
a t shop?
Or could you get knit circle
or
cross stitch? Or, like, in in my case
bar quilt
into a Michaels. Right? Because the thing is,
like, your aunt or your grandma... They already
have all the quilt stuff they're ever gonna
need all the prostate stuff that they're ever
gonna need. Like... So you can just buy
a Michael's gift card. Or if you walk
in there and you're like, well, here's this
game for, like, that's family weight. It's 30
or 40 bucks. Like, it's something that they
don't have.
Right? And so, like, it's meeting that customer
where they are or the people that they
know are. Right? And so, like, it's a
great avenue.
And I think that's a great insight. The
harder part is, like, how do you get
a hold of the buyer at Michael's to
get that game pulled through it. Right?
But I think that there is something to
be set for that. Like,
a game in the quilt section of a
Michaels around Christmas time
doesn't matter... I mean, honestly, look, you you
could put nothing in the box, and you're
gonna sell
you know, because some number of thousands of
copies. Right? Just because people are looking for
something that's different and related to something somebody
likes. Right? They're trying to be thoughtful.
But they don't have time and, like, they
can't buy you something actually use in your
quilt because, like, people are very, very specific
about the kind of things they use and
the thread they use and the needles, the
leg it's it's gonna be a thing. Right?
And you're again getting the wrong thing they're
just gonna return it.
Right. But you can get them something that
shows you, appreciate their interest,
and it's gonna be different than anything they've
ever gotten. So, like,
it's a great insight
Yeah. I don't have a solution how to
get into that spot either, but, like, I
think it's
it's a good good thing to do if
you could get there. Right? Yeah. And I
think even... I mean, I'm not that you
need convincing on this, But I think even
more so. Right, It's a thing that shows
you understand and appreciate their interest. And that
you can do together with them. Right? Because
it's really hard unless you are a quilt
or an it just sit around do that.
With your aunt with grandma, whatever, but like,
being able... I mean, how thoughtful is that
kid who's like, you like quilt, I like
games
let's quilt game together. Right? And that's like,
I feel like that's every grandparents like dream.
Right?
So... Yeah.
They're gonna talk about that for 20 years.
Right? And just like the same thing like
with it... With, like, with your game, like,
if it... Like,
person likes tea. Like, hey. I I... You're
bringing the game over and some, like water
or whatever. And, like, we're gonna make the
sandwiches and we're gonna have tea, and we're
gonna play this game. Right? And it's
it's a different kind of experience. And,
yeah. It's tough It's tough. If you can
meet people where they are. Right? That's just,
like a holy grail. Right? Yeah.
Yeah. No. I need to do... I definitely
gonna do the recipe thing on my website,
but I think having a little book. Maybe
this could be a stretch goal that if
we reach some amount, then the recipes can
go book in the in the thing.
Otherwise, you have to go to the website.
It's more.
It cost money because it's big.
It it's stretch when you gotta do the,
like,
the sound that the cold does with the...
Okay.
Is that? Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Yep. That's
it. There's some stuff up appear top that
I feel like if I pressed it, I'd
get noises, but I shouldn't do that. So
any
ahead, Ro.
Oh, no. No. I think that's all great.
So
I think maybe we should, like, get to
the point of what we're talking about what
we're gonna do the rest of the year.
Yeah. Let's do it.
So I don't think we need to, like,
go in as much details as we did
at the beginning of the year,
listeners are getting tired. Agree. And then just
sort us recap and talk about all of
the same stuff that we're gonna do already.
So
I think for me, mine haven't totally changed.
I'm still gonna try to pitch more.
I'm gonna try to do better at cold
emailing.
It's just frustrating when, like, you craft something
and you have a decent cell sheet, and
you think it's like,
just waiting and hear somebody, like, not interested
or whatever and you just get, like, no
response at all. It's kind of annoying. So
Gonna try to do that. I think the
thing with the art and
culture game stuff that'll happen as it happened.
So not really a major.
Thing it could become a priority for me,
but we'll see how that pans out.
I think for my 2 player line, which
is my last goal for this year.
I already said, like, I think selling at
a convention is by myself is probably not
in the cards.
I think there's 1 other thing that I'm
gonna try to do here before Gen con,
and that is
initially, I had... The reason I decided to
try to do this line myself is because
historically, you talked to a publisher about 2
player games and they they're like, Nobody buys
2 player games. And I'm like, okay. Well,
it's not really true, but
pandemic has shown us that. But generally,
a lot of publishers shut it down right
away. Right? There's a couple that have fairly
decent amount of that, like, Cosmos and and
others, but, like, not many publishers are in
in that space.
But
and this is my con
and prediction. But now the sky team is
gonna win the spiel, I don't think it's
close. I think it's a slam dunk. Mh.
Probably like to follow trends. And so I'm
hoping to ride the wave that's gonna be
in my email proposition 2 the publishers of,
like, hey,
now the guy team is gonna win the
spiel,
when you like to get ahead of the
market, I have a whole line of 2
player games that are already done, they're completely
developed. They're ready to go, you just need
have to make art and I have, like,
so most I haven't talked about with this
line that that product placement, like, a lot
of things have been thought through pretty well,
I think.
So, yeah. I think I'm gonna also
do a pitch. I think there's a moment
in time here that maybe I can leverage.
And that I can just be a designer,
not a publisher too, but we'll see. So
I think that's a a slight
experiment I'm going to take, reach out to
a couple publishers that I think might be
slightly more.
Accepting of the idea.
And
especially since I have, like, like I said,
several that are
that are done, Like, they don't really need
any development,
because I've been they've been around for 3
or 4 years.
Yeah. So we'll see. So that... That's a
slight twist on my 2 player line. If
that goes poorly.
Honestly, I might just
focus on getting stuff ready for packs unplugged,
then not really do anything else with this
line this year,
and then see maybe at the end of
the year if I wanna kind of, like,
decide if I really wanna go forward because
I think that's a big thing. Right? Mh.
All the money in art and all the
other stuff, like, is at the time and
and money investment I wanna make for this
line,
given that I'm mostly at this point, thinking
the only way to make it financially
pay for itself,
would be kick starting.
So...
Yeah. That's my
20 24 second half goals.
Okay.
So mine are
along the same lines. So I I think
I've got unplugged in my sights as, like,
I'd love to have a few new games
by then,
that I felt like they're not Hawk games.
They're games I wanna pitch
so that's that's a piece I'm gonna be
working on.
I think this... I am on this train
with Pirates. And I am continuing forward. There
are no signs of stopping. There might be
signs of slipping right.
Right? So
you know, we'll see when that happens, and
it's possible.
The pirate kickstarter launch slips into next year.
I don't think so, but, you know, we'll
see as we get closer.
So I think that's on track. Knit circles
is on track, that's happening.
I'd I'd say the other piece that I
sort of wanna add to this mix is
exploring
other ways to
to be a part of this industry. Right?
So now that I've done some development, are
there other development gigs that I could pick
up. There's a
a game design on commission opportunity that I'm
looking at,
you know, that kind of stuff of
of what can I do to sort of
be getting other experience in this industry and
and things like that? So
I'm sort of
tentatively putting that on my goals for the
year. But that's a little bit more exploratory.
Right? I think the priority is is Pirates
and Hawk. Right?
Knit circle.
And then I just... I I wanna continue
to build this
set of games. Right? I need to continue
to build my design skills. I need to
build out my repertoire,
my resume, my library, whatever it is.
So that's my
that's my updated focus for the year. So
I'm excited that I'm still on track for
a bunch of it. And, I'm excited that
I've pivoted some of them. Some of those
goals were stupid, So I threw them out.
And new goals.
Hashtag new goals.
So...
Alright.
Last thing, we're thinking we might do a
little pitch here if listeners you're not to
bored of hearing a star.
So,
Ro,
you wanna pitch something?
Yeah. Yeah. I'll pitch something, But I think
the way we should do this is
so,
as we've said,
Emily Drew from Boston to my house, and
we went 2 and front origins together, because
I was planning on driving already. And my
house is basically halfway.
And so, on the way out,
I had a prompt
based on a component that I had bought
some,
and we designed a game on the way
out. And on the way back,
Emily had a prompt,
and we designed a game around that. And
so I'm gonna let her do the setup
of the prompt. Okay. And then I'll pitch
it from there.
Alright.
So this is my favorite type of design.
This is name first design or really pun
first design.
So I've been sitting on this name for
a while, and the name is No nomenclature,
starting with a g.
Nomenclature.
So I, you know, no... A nomenclature is
a, you know, creation of a naming hierarchy.
And gnomes are adorable things that live in
your garden and wear hats.
And so I
I'm obsessed with the idea of a...
The tagline I had was a Gnarly game
of naming gnomes.
Because I think that you need to name
your gnomes in a very good hierarchy.
So I was like, Ro, this has been
like my white whale. I have the pun.
And other than that, I know you're naming
No.
So,
Ro, how are we gonna name these No?
Yeah. So so it's interesting. So 1 of
the things
that we kinda started with. So we'll basically
tell about of the story and we'll get
to what the actual game.
Play we... We decide 1 for the first
version.
Is obviously, this is kinda lighter. Right? So
this is this is not a a euro
this is probably party or
family weight.
And so we we talked about a couple
different things.
And
I think the the thing we kinda settled
in with given the pun,
that it really
probably pushes harder into into a party game.
Yeah. And so we have all these gnomes,
and so we have nomenclature.
And 1 of the things that
we're talking about this
that
stuck in my head right away.
Pretty early in the idea radiation was
if you look at the word nomenclature,
there's 2 sounds at the beginning of it.
And those sounds are
no
and men.
Yep. And so that was just kind of
a weird thing. And I'm, like,
we should make this this occasion where the
gnomes are all all women. Right? There should
be no men. There are no men. Right?
So it's it's There's no men. Right? So
it's no,
nomenclature,
and also nomenclature. So that was pretty early
on.
And so we... We're sticking with that. Yeah.
So this is a game that has no,
and there's no
no male no in it. It's no men.
So the... We we talk a bunch of
different structures. Right? So you have these gnomes
and
they're going to be visually different in some
way. Right You have
obviously, we wanna game... If it's party to
have some table presence in some kind of,
like,
interesting things to consider
But then the thing is, well, what what
are you doing with the the naming? Right?
So there's lots of different ways you can
kinda go, like,
you're kinda guessing what someone else is gonna
pick or you're going to
all
assign
a naming to
the
the node that's out there together secretly, and
then you score or you have a judge.
And, you know, we we went through a
lot of those different kinds of systems.
And
The 1 thing that
I think, Emily had, like,
maybe slightly more of a vision for what
she wanted this to end up than than
she initially told me, which is fine.
Was that, like, well, what if it's like,
we're we're we're discovering these new,
known species?
And so this is kinda where we added
ended up where, like, there's gonna be some
species, and they're gonna be fairly nonsensical. Right?
Because these are gnomes.
And we're going to be classifying them. So
we're we're No scientist ascend level.
And we've discovered the new known species
and we're going to, assign them to different,
species slash genus slash
familiar, you know, the Latin kind of, like,
hierarchy.
And so, the idea is there's there's gonna
be
some number, probably 4 to start of species
for the game. And they're gonna be kind
of combined randomly. So
each species is gonna be 2 words
of some random latin sounding word. We're, like
examples are, like, adorable
maximus.
Or something like, Yeah. Right or, like... Yeah.
Whatever. Hinting it's hinting at some characteristic
that
and alive. No. Right? Because these n are
alive. They're not just
ceramic.
And
and so we have to, like,
as a group classify them. Right? And so
they'll be random. So each pair of classifications
will be, 2 words and they'll just people
from a deck randomly.
And then the thing we were thinking about
is,
instead of somebody having a judge. Right? Because
Judging games have a lot of problems, and
I think we're both kind of, like, anti
judging games. Mh.
We kinda went with, like, a slightly more
and now just model to something like what's
and wage.
And so the way it would work is
an inner current version that we've not made.
There'd be some number of no
better not men because there's no men.
Out there on the in the on the
table area. And let's say there's 8.
Yeah. So that's there's 8 pictures
pardon me of,
a female no doing cool stuff, kicking butt.
And
1 player is going to be the scientist.
Right? So we believe in science
in this at this podcast. And we believe
in peer review, And so the whole point
is, somebody's going to see these 8 zooms
and decide
which 1 looks most like adorable maximus.
And which 1 looks more like
whatever the other ones are? Charisma, something something.
Yeah.
Yeah. Some something that sounds cool.
That we're not saying right now on on
this podcast, But they're gonna pick 4 that
they think are the most of whatever it
is.
And
they're also going to assign
4 disks, which are the numbers 1 before
about
how obvious or
clearly,
they are that. So, like, if 1 is
absolutely the most adorable 1,
and they put that
a marker that the adorable 1 that's gonna
be classified. Not which of the 8 it
is, but which of the category they thought
was easiest for them.
Basically, that's how many points you could win
for guessing correctly
what the the scientists had, decided to name
these or or categorize these these Named species.
So
the person who's the scientist does that. They
pick the 4
that they think Matt's best and they grade
them which 1 was hardest.
You as a player, a peer review here.
We're gonna have a little sheet. And so
you're also going to try to pick Not
what you think are the 4. Right? So
this is a game about also knowing the
the scientists,
what they think, what you think they picked.
And
if you're right for which 1 was the
adorable maximus, then you would get that many
points
that the person had there. Right?
But you also have
the ability to wage your numbers 1 to
4,
and
the ability to
pick which ones you're most sure about.
And so if you put the 4, you
have 4321 of the numbers you write with
your guesses for the 4 for classified gnomes.
Hopefully, it makes explaining this clearly is making
sense in my head.
You pick the 4 that that you think
go in the 4 categories, and you also
pick which ones you're most sure about.
And so your score is
which ones you're right.
And it's a sum of how sure you
were and how hard
the scientists thought it was.
So if you you could get 8 points
for 1, if you pick the 1 that
the scientists thought was hardest,
and
you also bet the most on that essentially.
So
there's a little bit of, like, thinking this
not just like, what they picked, but also,
like, where you wanna kinda score your points.
Additionally, to incentivize the scientist
to not be a jerk and just, like,
pick anything.
They also score points
if anybody was able to correctly
guess which known that they
assigned to the different 4 species. Like, So
if anybody at all, 1 of our players,
pick the note that was adorable to be
in the adorable as pile.
Then they get that many points. Right? And
so they're incentivized,
even when they... They're not doing the guessing,
they score points based on people guessing incorrect.
So
everybody's at incentives are aligned to have good
guesses that that people
have out there, but also,
the people can kinda guess. And people are
gonna be wrong. Right? Because we all have
different eyes.
And the other thing that that Emily made
a good point about was
for this game,
after we do the each round for those
gnomes are now in those species,
and they're not removed.
That becomes the scientific book of knowledge of
what is in the species adorable maximus.
And so now the next player is a
scientist 4 more norms are flipped in,
and we go again.
So
the 1 that may wasn't quite as adorable
before, may now be the 1 that goes
up to the ado pile. But now you're
also stuck a little bit considering what other
people have already picked
in terms of what is adorable
when you're when you're doing your further scientific
assignments.
And additionally, at the end of the game,
let's say just go around 1 time, see
you has the most points.
You have a picture of, like,
This is what gnomes look like that fit
in the adorable maximus category.
Right? So you have this artifact,
Of not just the points you scored across
the game, but also, like,
what it looks like. And some of them
are probably gonna be pretty silly. And and
there's probably gonna be some nice memorable moments
of, like, how heck did this 1 end
up in the angry pile. Right? This is,
like, the angry category and, like how is
this
this 1 known chasing a butterfly with a
net, like, in the angry pile. Clearly because
it's chasing something. That seems pretty.
Right?
Yeah. So
anyway,
that's the basic gist. So... Yeah. So, you
know, this is something we haven't play tested
at all. Right? And we're already sort of,
bumping up against, like, well, how are we
gonna test this? Because, like, this game relies
a lot on art. And so we're trying
to figure out how to get it to
the table. Right? And I think that there's
also some, like stuff in here that, like,
we gotta see how do people feel about
categorizing in grouping,
living things. Right? Like, this is definitely a
thing that science has done.
Science has done some great things and science
has done some terrible things. Right? So I'm
really curious to see how this game plays.
I'm curious to see how we get it
to the table.
Right,
if you wanna add us, in the in
the discord. Happy to
happy to hear from you.
But, yeah, naming No
scientifically.
It's gonna be
it's gonna be a thing we're gonna try.
It's gonna be great. I'm very excited.
So... Yeah.
Alright. Well,
thank you all for listening. Thank you, Ro
for hanging out with me for this long.
Even though
it wasn't a full 6 hours. I'm sure
it still felt. It time passed. Right?
So
Ro, where can people find you?
Yeah. So I'm easy to find. It's just
at Ro shock.
Want all the things. So
Yeah. And I am at Hoc games on
Instagram and
Tiktok. Oh, yeah. That's new. Or Emily keeps
kitties,
everywhere else. And you can also check out
my website, hawk games dot com. And if
you wanna get in touch with the podcast,
you can email us of building the game
podcast at gmail dot com. You can also
come join the discord server where you're gonna
find a lot of awesome people.
Including folks who get together every Tuesday night
for a little weekly accountability, check in, what
have you done this week? What do you
planning to do? How can we and the
community help you?
But the best way to
hear about what's going on and keep up
with us is to keep on coming back
every week
And until then,
good night.
Good night. Building the game, building the game.
France, with Jason and France, building the game,
building the game, which Jason and Friends which
it
end the episode. That's
ends?