1 00:00:00,880 --> 00:00:02,639 Some would say, no, there's a line. In 2 00:00:02,639 --> 00:00:04,879 my view and in Brave Angel's view, he 3 00:00:04,879 --> 00:00:07,200 said it with clarity. He was following the 4 00:00:07,200 --> 00:00:08,960 ground rules. We asked him what he thought. 5 00:00:08,960 --> 00:00:10,960 The next question is, what are your concerns 6 00:00:10,960 --> 00:00:13,119 about people who agree with you and how 7 00:00:13,119 --> 00:00:15,544 they engage in in public about this. And 8 00:00:15,544 --> 00:00:17,385 that's where he said, there's too much blaming 9 00:00:17,385 --> 00:00:19,945 and shaming of women, you know, and and 10 00:00:19,945 --> 00:00:22,265 and he's a follower of Jesus and there's 11 00:00:22,265 --> 00:00:25,164 forgiveness and this so there's that too. Okay? 12 00:00:25,224 --> 00:00:26,445 When you go below 13 00:00:26,824 --> 00:00:27,644 the offensive 14 00:00:28,184 --> 00:00:30,629 opinion, if somebody's willing to stay with you, 15 00:00:30,789 --> 00:00:32,789 you get to see the complexity and their 16 00:00:32,789 --> 00:00:33,289 humanity. 17 00:00:35,509 --> 00:00:37,770 So welcome. We have started a podcast, 18 00:00:38,390 --> 00:00:39,850 This Is Your Job Now. 19 00:00:40,309 --> 00:00:43,109 And you're in, I think very nice company. 20 00:00:43,109 --> 00:00:45,989 We've had President Obama's speechwriter on it. We've 21 00:00:45,989 --> 00:00:46,489 had 22 00:00:46,844 --> 00:00:49,024 some, really distinguished guests, 23 00:00:49,484 --> 00:00:51,265 which I consider you to be 24 00:00:51,645 --> 00:00:54,625 among the most, because you have certainly challenged 25 00:00:54,765 --> 00:00:57,164 me the most of any speaker I've ever 26 00:00:57,164 --> 00:00:59,689 heard. So let me introduce you by saying, 27 00:00:59,829 --> 00:01:02,309 you have totally messed up my brain. Well, 28 00:01:02,309 --> 00:01:03,850 makes me feel so good. 29 00:01:04,150 --> 00:01:05,290 And I was really 30 00:01:05,670 --> 00:01:07,530 anxious to talk with you today 31 00:01:07,989 --> 00:01:10,229 because one thing that those who know me 32 00:01:10,229 --> 00:01:11,849 know, I value intellectualism 33 00:01:12,549 --> 00:01:14,250 and and you are a brilliant, 34 00:01:15,375 --> 00:01:18,334 a brilliant speaker who knows everything and anything 35 00:01:18,334 --> 00:01:20,174 that I could learn from. So I we 36 00:01:20,174 --> 00:01:23,295 really appreciate you spending some time. But before 37 00:01:23,295 --> 00:01:24,975 we even start that, could you go ahead 38 00:01:24,975 --> 00:01:27,215 and introduce yourself in your own words, who 39 00:01:27,215 --> 00:01:29,780 you are? Sure. Sure. So, Bill Doherty. I 40 00:01:29,780 --> 00:01:32,520 I live in Saint Paul, Minnesota, long term 41 00:01:32,900 --> 00:01:35,379 academic, taught family therapy for thirty eight years 42 00:01:35,379 --> 00:01:37,959 at the University of Minnesota, and, a community 43 00:01:38,020 --> 00:01:41,034 engaged person, done a lot of work various 44 00:01:41,034 --> 00:01:42,015 sorts of communities 45 00:01:42,314 --> 00:01:44,094 most well, in the last nine years, 46 00:01:44,395 --> 00:01:46,715 I've been involved with founding and and and 47 00:01:46,715 --> 00:01:49,194 leading a nonprofit called Braver Angels, which is 48 00:01:49,194 --> 00:01:51,835 working on the political divide. A particular interest 49 00:01:51,835 --> 00:01:53,835 in health therapy and the broader culture go 50 00:01:53,835 --> 00:01:56,530 together and how we can how we sometimes 51 00:01:56,530 --> 00:02:00,049 inadvertently contribute to societal problems and interpersonal problems 52 00:02:00,049 --> 00:02:01,810 and how we can make a difference. So 53 00:02:01,810 --> 00:02:04,630 the citizen therapist, I consider myself the citizen 54 00:02:04,930 --> 00:02:05,430 therapist. 55 00:02:05,730 --> 00:02:07,569 I always say in my sessions, if I 56 00:02:07,569 --> 00:02:09,810 make you feel functionally guilty, then you'll make 57 00:02:09,810 --> 00:02:11,685 a change. Right? If there's a good thing 58 00:02:11,685 --> 00:02:13,305 about guilt sometimes. Right? 59 00:02:14,084 --> 00:02:16,485 And you made me feel incredibly guilty. I'm 60 00:02:16,485 --> 00:02:18,485 twenty seven years into the field, and so 61 00:02:18,485 --> 00:02:20,324 I wanna thank you for that because we 62 00:02:20,324 --> 00:02:22,724 can become complacent. And as leaders, we often 63 00:02:22,724 --> 00:02:25,030 become complacent. Right? So it seems to me 64 00:02:25,030 --> 00:02:27,269 that you have spent decades trying to bridge 65 00:02:27,269 --> 00:02:29,110 this gap. You know, I hate the term 66 00:02:29,110 --> 00:02:31,849 unprecedented times, but we are in in unprecedented 67 00:02:32,150 --> 00:02:34,729 times. I mean, right? The longest shutdown ever. 68 00:02:34,789 --> 00:02:36,729 So many of us are affected by that. 69 00:02:37,034 --> 00:02:38,555 Food stamps and and it goes on and 70 00:02:38,555 --> 00:02:40,495 on. And yet you stay committed 71 00:02:41,275 --> 00:02:43,354 to the vision that is even more important 72 00:02:43,354 --> 00:02:45,514 to bridging the gap now. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 73 00:02:45,514 --> 00:02:47,435 And you believe that. I I do. I 74 00:02:47,435 --> 00:02:49,354 think we have to work on it because 75 00:02:49,354 --> 00:02:51,215 this gap the the gap is polarization. 76 00:02:51,889 --> 00:02:54,770 It's how we've come to despise people who 77 00:02:54,770 --> 00:02:56,069 differ from us politically, 78 00:02:56,449 --> 00:02:58,849 how we've gotten to say it's not worth 79 00:02:58,849 --> 00:03:01,169 talking to them, and we stay in our 80 00:03:01,169 --> 00:03:03,824 communities and and throw rocks at each other. 81 00:03:03,985 --> 00:03:05,824 That this is the problem that keeps us 82 00:03:05,824 --> 00:03:08,144 from solving all the other problems. Because once 83 00:03:08,144 --> 00:03:09,205 something gets identified 84 00:03:09,745 --> 00:03:11,284 as red or blue solution, 85 00:03:11,664 --> 00:03:14,224 a red or blue problem, right, like climate 86 00:03:14,224 --> 00:03:16,625 change, then the other side goes away and 87 00:03:16,625 --> 00:03:18,969 doesn't wanna talk about it. So we're coming 88 00:03:18,969 --> 00:03:21,129 up to some holidays for those who are 89 00:03:21,129 --> 00:03:22,030 listening now. 90 00:03:22,489 --> 00:03:24,030 And in your world, 91 00:03:24,489 --> 00:03:26,810 we're often taught as therapists or, you know, 92 00:03:26,810 --> 00:03:28,889 don't talk about these topics. Just take them 93 00:03:28,889 --> 00:03:30,509 off the table. Does that help? 94 00:03:31,050 --> 00:03:33,585 Well, it depends on the setting. It depends 95 00:03:33,585 --> 00:03:36,645 on your relatives. I think it's, during Thanksgiving 96 00:03:36,944 --> 00:03:39,665 dinner when there's actually the table there. It's 97 00:03:39,665 --> 00:03:41,764 probably not the best time to 98 00:03:42,064 --> 00:03:42,805 talk about 99 00:03:43,504 --> 00:03:44,004 Okay. 100 00:03:44,490 --> 00:03:46,810 You know, whether Donald Trump should run a 101 00:03:46,810 --> 00:03:48,729 third time. And there may be some relatives 102 00:03:48,729 --> 00:03:51,449 that you you don't feel capable of talking 103 00:03:51,449 --> 00:03:51,949 to. 104 00:03:52,330 --> 00:03:54,330 But I'd I'd like to suggest that if 105 00:03:54,330 --> 00:03:55,389 we just go silent 106 00:03:55,689 --> 00:03:58,270 with people who are different, who think differently, 107 00:03:58,330 --> 00:04:00,125 and who are important to us. If we 108 00:04:00,125 --> 00:04:02,925 just go silent, it's really hard to keep 109 00:04:02,925 --> 00:04:05,485 a democracy going. If we just keep spread 110 00:04:05,485 --> 00:04:08,224 the silence with each other, and we're loud 111 00:04:08,525 --> 00:04:10,145 we're loud in our own groups 112 00:04:10,444 --> 00:04:12,525 about the other the other side, but we 113 00:04:12,525 --> 00:04:15,060 go silent when we're in their presence. This 114 00:04:15,060 --> 00:04:16,360 is not how a country 115 00:04:16,819 --> 00:04:18,500 can operate, and I I don't think it's 116 00:04:18,500 --> 00:04:20,339 particularly good for families, but it's not good 117 00:04:20,339 --> 00:04:22,439 for the country. You know, you're the Minnesota 118 00:04:22,740 --> 00:04:24,680 Midwest. Right? I'm the New Yorker. 119 00:04:25,139 --> 00:04:28,339 Is there anything to, like, styles and composure? 120 00:04:28,339 --> 00:04:30,384 And and let's talk a little bit about 121 00:04:30,384 --> 00:04:32,225 the real skill of listening, which we don't 122 00:04:32,225 --> 00:04:34,865 teach. Right? We don't formally take a class. 123 00:04:34,865 --> 00:04:37,105 And what I noticed in your facilitation, you're 124 00:04:37,105 --> 00:04:40,165 a phenomenal listener. Well well well, thank you. 125 00:04:40,305 --> 00:04:41,764 By the way, I'm from Philadelphia. 126 00:04:42,529 --> 00:04:45,490 Oh, okay. Alright. And I lived, in the 127 00:04:45,490 --> 00:04:47,169 East Coast. I lived in New York. You 128 00:04:47,169 --> 00:04:49,029 know, it's where my wife and I are. 129 00:04:49,089 --> 00:04:52,129 So I can do East Coast. Okay. Alright. 130 00:04:52,129 --> 00:04:54,370 So you speak okay. So then did I'm 131 00:04:54,370 --> 00:04:56,406 not off the hook with that. I'm not 132 00:04:56,406 --> 00:04:58,914 off the hook. Off the hook with that. 133 00:04:58,914 --> 00:05:01,143 I'm not off the hook with that. But 134 00:05:01,143 --> 00:05:03,371 when you say we don't teach listening, we 135 00:05:03,371 --> 00:05:05,879 also people who know how to listen, like 136 00:05:05,879 --> 00:05:08,108 therapists. Okay? Often, we give ourselves a pass 137 00:05:08,108 --> 00:05:10,660 that we don't have to listen to political 138 00:05:10,660 --> 00:05:13,220 things we disagree with or values we disagree 139 00:05:13,220 --> 00:05:15,779 with. One of the first, skills workshops I 140 00:05:15,779 --> 00:05:17,639 did after we started Braver Angels 141 00:05:17,939 --> 00:05:20,259 was, to about 40 people. And and there 142 00:05:20,259 --> 00:05:22,259 were about a dozen therapists there, and I 143 00:05:22,259 --> 00:05:23,540 know that because some of them were my 144 00:05:23,540 --> 00:05:25,595 colleagues and they invited other people. And when 145 00:05:25,595 --> 00:05:26,954 I asked people to say at the end 146 00:05:26,954 --> 00:05:28,794 what they were taking with them from this 147 00:05:28,794 --> 00:05:29,615 skills workshop, 148 00:05:30,074 --> 00:05:31,754 one of the therapists said, well, you know, 149 00:05:31,754 --> 00:05:33,274 I know all these skills, you know, the 150 00:05:33,274 --> 00:05:35,754 listening skills and the iMessages and so on. 151 00:05:35,754 --> 00:05:37,595 But I never thought to apply them to 152 00:05:37,595 --> 00:05:38,814 political conversations. 153 00:05:40,470 --> 00:05:43,990 So we can be just as judgmental and 154 00:05:43,990 --> 00:05:46,790 moralistic and condemning and why should I talk 155 00:05:46,790 --> 00:05:48,629 to you? When it comes to politics, we 156 00:05:48,629 --> 00:05:50,330 can unskill ourselves 157 00:05:50,790 --> 00:05:52,814 from the very things we know how to 158 00:05:52,814 --> 00:05:55,935 do. They're triggers. That's right. That's right. We 159 00:05:55,935 --> 00:05:58,574 allow ourselves to get triggered. Even people who, 160 00:05:58,574 --> 00:05:59,555 for a profession, 161 00:06:00,175 --> 00:06:02,754 we learn to not get triggered very easily. 162 00:06:02,895 --> 00:06:05,055 So I'm saying we can hold ourselves to 163 00:06:05,055 --> 00:06:07,310 higher standards. I would love to hear a 164 00:06:07,310 --> 00:06:09,389 success story where you feel like you have 165 00:06:09,389 --> 00:06:11,629 been able to repair a community, a group, 166 00:06:11,629 --> 00:06:12,290 an organization, 167 00:06:13,069 --> 00:06:15,790 where practicing this active listening has really helped 168 00:06:15,790 --> 00:06:16,769 build bonds. 169 00:06:17,230 --> 00:06:19,629 Yeah. So one of the projects I'm involved 170 00:06:19,629 --> 00:06:20,370 in now 171 00:06:20,935 --> 00:06:23,435 is a relationship building exchange 172 00:06:24,214 --> 00:06:27,894 between students at Macalester College in Saint Paul, 173 00:06:27,894 --> 00:06:30,555 which is a private, very liberal college, 174 00:06:31,254 --> 00:06:33,814 and University of Northwestern, which is not the 175 00:06:33,814 --> 00:06:36,310 one in Chicago. It's a bible college. It's 176 00:06:36,310 --> 00:06:38,550 a Bible college founded by Billy Graham. So 177 00:06:38,550 --> 00:06:40,490 we have probably the most liberal 178 00:06:40,790 --> 00:06:42,629 college in the state of Minnesota and the 179 00:06:42,629 --> 00:06:45,350 most conservative students. And so we have, 180 00:06:45,910 --> 00:06:48,470 a group of nine students from each college 181 00:06:48,470 --> 00:06:51,064 and the presidents of the two colleges and 182 00:06:51,064 --> 00:06:53,465 a key faculty member meeting every other week 183 00:06:53,465 --> 00:06:54,925 for a meal. 184 00:06:55,625 --> 00:06:56,925 Mhmm. And then a conversation 185 00:06:57,465 --> 00:06:59,785 around topics where we get to know each 186 00:06:59,785 --> 00:07:01,884 other and our views beyond stereotypes, 187 00:07:02,439 --> 00:07:03,959 look for common ground, and then they have 188 00:07:03,959 --> 00:07:06,759 one to ones in between. And what they 189 00:07:06,759 --> 00:07:09,160 discover is that they have much more in 190 00:07:09,160 --> 00:07:11,879 common than differences, and that is some level 191 00:07:11,879 --> 00:07:12,540 of humanity. 192 00:07:12,919 --> 00:07:16,040 They are brothers and sisters. Is there in 193 00:07:16,040 --> 00:07:18,675 the rule book, is there something that both 194 00:07:18,675 --> 00:07:20,834 parties need to agree to before they can 195 00:07:20,834 --> 00:07:23,475 do this? Well, there's ground rules. So my 196 00:07:23,475 --> 00:07:25,894 view is that as long as people agree 197 00:07:26,035 --> 00:07:28,834 to have a respectful conversation, not interrupting each 198 00:07:28,834 --> 00:07:30,995 other, not name calling each other, that there's 199 00:07:30,995 --> 00:07:33,120 nothing that cannot be talked about. So the 200 00:07:33,120 --> 00:07:35,680 line line is not the topic. The line 201 00:07:35,680 --> 00:07:37,540 is not the opinion. It's the behavior. 202 00:07:37,840 --> 00:07:40,319 It's the behavior. So we talked about abortion 203 00:07:40,319 --> 00:07:42,259 last time, and the most conservative 204 00:07:42,800 --> 00:07:46,395 of the students from the Bible college said 205 00:07:46,395 --> 00:07:48,955 in his mind, abortion is murder and that 206 00:07:48,955 --> 00:07:51,355 anybody who participates in that, including the woman, 207 00:07:51,355 --> 00:07:53,675 should be brought up on charges. That's pretty 208 00:07:53,675 --> 00:07:54,175 strong. 209 00:07:54,875 --> 00:07:57,274 Mhmm. K? I mean, he said it, you 210 00:07:57,274 --> 00:07:59,514 know, clearly and firmly. He wasn't shouting and 211 00:07:59,514 --> 00:08:01,629 screaming at anybody. Afterwards, he was in a 212 00:08:01,629 --> 00:08:04,029 one to one with a guy who who 213 00:08:04,029 --> 00:08:06,750 accepts abortion and does not believe life begins 214 00:08:06,750 --> 00:08:07,410 at conception. 215 00:08:07,870 --> 00:08:08,370 And 216 00:08:08,750 --> 00:08:10,750 they one of the things they came up 217 00:08:10,750 --> 00:08:12,909 with together is that when a woman goes 218 00:08:12,909 --> 00:08:15,375 in for a second abortion, maybe she should 219 00:08:15,375 --> 00:08:17,634 be referred to counseling because maybe there's some 220 00:08:17,694 --> 00:08:18,675 stuff going on 221 00:08:19,375 --> 00:08:21,935 that one of the most extreme things. Okay? 222 00:08:21,935 --> 00:08:24,495 That's to say he's he's 20 years old. 223 00:08:24,495 --> 00:08:24,995 Okay? 224 00:08:25,375 --> 00:08:28,415 He's very intellectually minded. So in my mind, 225 00:08:28,415 --> 00:08:31,089 he's following through the logic. Okay? He wasn't 226 00:08:31,436 --> 00:08:34,903 Right. Well, he wasn't because he also said, 227 00:08:34,903 --> 00:08:37,009 like, we should not be shaming and blaming 228 00:08:37,009 --> 00:08:39,330 women, and and these are tragic situate you 229 00:08:39,330 --> 00:08:41,970 know? I mean, so he's complicated. K? And 230 00:08:41,970 --> 00:08:44,129 then he and and another guy said, no. 231 00:08:44,129 --> 00:08:45,875 Maybe, you know, there should be some counseling, 232 00:08:46,014 --> 00:08:48,175 and not against the abortion, but, like, what's 233 00:08:48,175 --> 00:08:50,014 going on with her life? So when you 234 00:08:50,014 --> 00:08:52,415 asked your question about the line, that's my 235 00:08:52,415 --> 00:08:54,415 most recent experience that some would say, no. 236 00:08:54,415 --> 00:08:56,335 There's a line. And when you say women 237 00:08:56,335 --> 00:08:57,539 should be, you know, 238 00:08:57,940 --> 00:09:00,980 adjudicated, blah blah blah, that's a line. Well, 239 00:09:00,980 --> 00:09:03,459 no. In my view, in a Brave Angel's 240 00:09:03,459 --> 00:09:06,179 view, he said it with clarity, with, you 241 00:09:06,179 --> 00:09:08,179 know he was following the ground rules. We 242 00:09:08,179 --> 00:09:09,620 asked him what he thought. And then but 243 00:09:09,620 --> 00:09:11,924 the the next question after what's at the 244 00:09:11,924 --> 00:09:13,684 heart of this for you is what are 245 00:09:13,684 --> 00:09:15,764 your what are your concerns about people who 246 00:09:15,764 --> 00:09:18,325 agree with you, how talk about this, and 247 00:09:18,325 --> 00:09:20,565 and and and how they engage in in 248 00:09:20,565 --> 00:09:22,725 public about this. And that's where he said 249 00:09:22,725 --> 00:09:24,904 there's too much blaming and shaming of women, 250 00:09:25,125 --> 00:09:27,470 you know, and and and he's a follower 251 00:09:27,470 --> 00:09:29,950 of Jesus, and there's forgiveness, and there's so 252 00:09:29,950 --> 00:09:31,889 there's that too. Okay? Right. 253 00:09:32,269 --> 00:09:34,610 When you go below the offensive 254 00:09:35,149 --> 00:09:37,730 opinion, if somebody's willing to stay with you, 255 00:09:37,790 --> 00:09:39,629 you get to see the complexity and their 256 00:09:39,629 --> 00:09:41,745 humanity. So what I'm hearing is we're not 257 00:09:41,825 --> 00:09:43,745 trying to change someone's mind. We're not trying 258 00:09:43,745 --> 00:09:45,585 to bring them over. We're not trying to 259 00:09:45,585 --> 00:09:47,985 convert them over to our our world. We're 260 00:09:47,985 --> 00:09:49,904 trying to listen and okay. Just if I 261 00:09:49,904 --> 00:09:51,585 could follow-up. Please. What we say is we're 262 00:09:51,585 --> 00:09:53,664 not trying to change minds about issues. We're 263 00:09:53,664 --> 00:09:55,524 trying to change minds about each other. 264 00:09:56,429 --> 00:09:57,730 We had talked about 265 00:09:58,110 --> 00:10:00,610 putting pronouns at the end of our signatures, 266 00:10:00,909 --> 00:10:03,169 and whether that's an inclusive way 267 00:10:03,549 --> 00:10:06,190 or a or any exclusive way. Can you 268 00:10:06,190 --> 00:10:08,110 tell me a little bit about because we 269 00:10:08,110 --> 00:10:10,865 we spend so much time including the pronouns 270 00:10:10,924 --> 00:10:12,924 in our signatures here at work. Right? And 271 00:10:12,924 --> 00:10:14,225 saying, we welcome everyone. 272 00:10:14,684 --> 00:10:16,865 And then you make a very powerful point. 273 00:10:17,245 --> 00:10:19,084 Can you share some light on that? Yeah. 274 00:10:19,084 --> 00:10:21,245 So if you are a professional, like a 275 00:10:21,245 --> 00:10:24,330 therapist who is, advertising in the public and 276 00:10:24,410 --> 00:10:27,389 exchanging emails, whether you include pronouns or not, 277 00:10:27,690 --> 00:10:30,009 there's a statement there. And if you choose 278 00:10:30,009 --> 00:10:32,889 to include them, you are signaling. You're signaling 279 00:10:32,889 --> 00:10:34,750 to people who may have 280 00:10:35,129 --> 00:10:37,790 concerns about the whole trans issue. 281 00:10:38,264 --> 00:10:40,825 You are signaling to them what your stance 282 00:10:40,825 --> 00:10:43,305 is. And and let's face it, you're also 283 00:10:43,305 --> 00:10:46,345 signaling in our red blue divided world. Mhmm. 284 00:10:46,345 --> 00:10:48,665 You're signaling you're blue. There's nothing wrong with 285 00:10:48,665 --> 00:10:50,639 that. So I have no prescriptions on this, 286 00:10:50,720 --> 00:10:52,720 but be mindful about it. In your own 287 00:10:52,720 --> 00:10:54,879 mind, you may be saying, well, I'm signaling 288 00:10:54,879 --> 00:10:56,799 that I care for all people and I'm 289 00:10:56,799 --> 00:10:59,840 inclusive. Okay. Yeah. Okay. But you're doing it 290 00:10:59,840 --> 00:11:03,040 in a particular way that is signaling where 291 00:11:03,040 --> 00:11:05,054 you are politically. It would be like if 292 00:11:05,054 --> 00:11:07,714 you had, you know, Jesus loves all humanity, 293 00:11:08,095 --> 00:11:10,034 you're signaling you're a Christian therapist. 294 00:11:10,815 --> 00:11:11,315 Okay? 295 00:11:11,695 --> 00:11:14,434 I thought that was a really powerful point. 296 00:11:14,815 --> 00:11:15,794 For some reason, 297 00:11:16,174 --> 00:11:17,879 I have to share with you that really 298 00:11:17,960 --> 00:11:20,120 struck me because I I I sort of 299 00:11:20,120 --> 00:11:23,000 feel like our brand here is everyone is 300 00:11:23,000 --> 00:11:25,960 welcome, and it never occurred to me. Well, 301 00:11:25,960 --> 00:11:28,519 actually, not everyone is welcome. So I I 302 00:11:28,519 --> 00:11:30,440 just have to really thank you for that 303 00:11:30,440 --> 00:11:32,524 thought. I think it's something for us all 304 00:11:32,524 --> 00:11:33,664 to consider 305 00:11:34,125 --> 00:11:35,264 the greater picture. 306 00:11:35,884 --> 00:11:37,884 I do think though that given where we 307 00:11:37,884 --> 00:11:39,485 are at this second, I don't know when 308 00:11:39,485 --> 00:11:41,965 you're listening to this, the idea of repairing 309 00:11:41,965 --> 00:11:44,769 our communities is based upon a hopefulness. This 310 00:11:44,769 --> 00:11:45,589 is an intellectual 311 00:11:45,889 --> 00:11:49,089 conversation. You have years of studying. You're super 312 00:11:49,089 --> 00:11:49,589 smart 313 00:11:50,049 --> 00:11:51,909 and very trained as a facilitator. 314 00:11:52,289 --> 00:11:54,529 Are you personally this hopeful that we can 315 00:11:54,529 --> 00:11:56,289 get that we can do this? Do you 316 00:11:56,289 --> 00:11:57,855 really think we can do it? 317 00:11:58,254 --> 00:12:01,054 What I like to say is that hope 318 00:12:01,054 --> 00:12:03,534 is a choice. I choose hope. I choose 319 00:12:03,534 --> 00:12:05,154 hope. No matter what. Yeah. 320 00:12:06,014 --> 00:12:09,615 Optimism is different. Optimism is this rational thing, 321 00:12:09,615 --> 00:12:12,174 but I choose hope. I think it's, what's 322 00:12:12,174 --> 00:12:12,674 gotten 323 00:12:13,049 --> 00:12:14,730 humanity through I was told to name the 324 00:12:14,730 --> 00:12:17,210 podcast, We Choose Hope. You know, I Yeah. 325 00:12:17,210 --> 00:12:19,049 I mean, you know, I I I do 326 00:12:19,049 --> 00:12:21,450 think I think that's a really interesting idea 327 00:12:21,450 --> 00:12:23,129 of, you know, are we going in it 328 00:12:23,129 --> 00:12:25,309 with hope or are we entering the conversations? 329 00:12:25,610 --> 00:12:28,055 And and I'm sure, you know, the general 330 00:12:28,055 --> 00:12:29,815 reaction to what you do for a living 331 00:12:29,815 --> 00:12:31,815 must be very mixed, right, for the braver 332 00:12:31,815 --> 00:12:33,735 angels. There must be and you're used to 333 00:12:33,735 --> 00:12:35,815 it. I'm assuming. That's an assumption. Is that 334 00:12:35,815 --> 00:12:36,315 true? 335 00:12:36,695 --> 00:12:37,514 Most people 336 00:12:38,215 --> 00:12:41,495 that I encounter take braver angels as a 337 00:12:41,495 --> 00:12:44,610 sign of hope. Now maybe maybe it's the 338 00:12:44,610 --> 00:12:46,790 the ones who are turned off to don't 339 00:12:46,929 --> 00:12:48,550 talk to me. But I think there's 340 00:12:48,929 --> 00:12:51,250 there's a small percentage of people on both 341 00:12:51,250 --> 00:12:52,309 sides of the continuum 342 00:12:52,769 --> 00:12:53,910 who think it's, 343 00:12:54,610 --> 00:12:56,904 a waste of time because the job is 344 00:12:56,904 --> 00:12:59,144 to to beat the others, you know, to 345 00:12:59,144 --> 00:13:00,584 beat the beat the crap out of them. 346 00:13:00,584 --> 00:13:01,084 Okay? 347 00:13:01,544 --> 00:13:03,404 Because it's a battle. It's a struggle. 348 00:13:03,945 --> 00:13:05,945 And it's win, lose. In their own homes, 349 00:13:05,945 --> 00:13:08,345 in their own families, see, we're not talking 350 00:13:08,345 --> 00:13:10,519 about something that just out there. People who 351 00:13:10,679 --> 00:13:13,240 people are running into this big gap in 352 00:13:13,240 --> 00:13:15,160 their own families and among their loved ones. 353 00:13:15,160 --> 00:13:16,600 So I'm gonna ask you a pretty tough 354 00:13:16,600 --> 00:13:19,420 question. Alright, Bill? You have years of experience, 355 00:13:19,800 --> 00:13:21,639 and so I it would be I think 356 00:13:21,639 --> 00:13:23,080 I would be remiss if I didn't ask 357 00:13:23,080 --> 00:13:25,834 you the hardest question, which is, what percent 358 00:13:25,975 --> 00:13:28,554 of any of the populations, red or blue, 359 00:13:28,934 --> 00:13:30,475 do you think are spirthed 360 00:13:31,014 --> 00:13:33,834 in hatred, in racism, in sexism, 361 00:13:34,534 --> 00:13:36,855 in all the isms? What percent are we 362 00:13:36,855 --> 00:13:38,634 talking about? Who are deeply? 363 00:13:39,414 --> 00:13:39,914 Yes. 364 00:13:40,950 --> 00:13:43,589 A a very small percentages. Yeah. Two or 365 00:13:43,589 --> 00:13:45,429 3%. That's a big takeaway I took from 366 00:13:45,429 --> 00:13:47,450 yours. I think smaller than we might realize. 367 00:13:47,909 --> 00:13:51,029 Just different of opinions, but not based in 368 00:13:51,029 --> 00:13:51,350 an in 369 00:13:52,554 --> 00:13:54,875 Right. Right. So my own view, we all 370 00:13:54,875 --> 00:13:57,915 have these isms in us. Michel Foucault, the 371 00:13:57,915 --> 00:13:59,375 famous French deconstructionist, 372 00:14:00,554 --> 00:14:02,394 he once wrote that we all have to 373 00:14:02,394 --> 00:14:04,175 contend with our inner fascists 374 00:14:04,554 --> 00:14:05,535 Mhmm. Personally. 375 00:14:06,399 --> 00:14:08,399 Mhmm. And so I think in each of 376 00:14:08,399 --> 00:14:10,500 us is a part of ourselves 377 00:14:11,120 --> 00:14:12,340 that is prone 378 00:14:12,720 --> 00:14:15,759 to othering, is prone to disdain, is prone 379 00:14:15,759 --> 00:14:16,259 to, 380 00:14:16,639 --> 00:14:19,365 wanting to assume power and control. And that 381 00:14:19,445 --> 00:14:22,004 for most of us, it's it's it's balanced 382 00:14:22,004 --> 00:14:24,565 off by other aspects of ourselves. And that 383 00:14:24,565 --> 00:14:27,705 leaders leaders come along like orchestra 384 00:14:28,164 --> 00:14:28,664 conductors 385 00:14:29,125 --> 00:14:30,664 and elicit elicit 386 00:14:31,125 --> 00:14:33,220 some of the worst sides of us. Well, 387 00:14:33,220 --> 00:14:34,899 that's what we're here to talk about. So 388 00:14:34,899 --> 00:14:36,679 I think the final question 389 00:14:37,139 --> 00:14:39,620 is, we have created a series of podcasts 390 00:14:39,620 --> 00:14:42,259 about your job now. As a leader, your 391 00:14:42,259 --> 00:14:44,899 job now is and fill in the blank, 392 00:14:44,899 --> 00:14:45,399 Bill. 393 00:14:45,764 --> 00:14:47,205 I have to say, I don't wanna tell 394 00:14:47,205 --> 00:14:49,445 somebody what their job has to be. I'm 395 00:14:49,445 --> 00:14:53,125 saying that a potential job, I'm opening up 396 00:14:53,125 --> 00:14:55,445 a different kind of job. Okay. I love 397 00:14:55,445 --> 00:14:55,945 it. 398 00:14:56,325 --> 00:14:57,065 Might choose. 399 00:14:57,365 --> 00:14:59,205 And that would be to be a bridge 400 00:14:59,205 --> 00:15:03,329 builder and healer around the political divide. That's 401 00:15:03,329 --> 00:15:06,870 not one that has been among the potential 402 00:15:06,929 --> 00:15:09,889 jobs of therapists in the past. It's not 403 00:15:09,889 --> 00:15:11,970 been on the list. But it's one that 404 00:15:11,970 --> 00:15:14,549 Braver Angels and there's other bridge building organizations, 405 00:15:14,850 --> 00:15:17,125 it's one that is now out there as 406 00:15:17,125 --> 00:15:17,785 a possibility 407 00:15:18,165 --> 00:15:20,504 that if somebody wanted to take that on, 408 00:15:21,524 --> 00:15:24,004 and concretely, they could apply to become a 409 00:15:24,004 --> 00:15:26,805 moderator of Brave Angels workshops. And that training 410 00:15:26,805 --> 00:15:28,725 is free, and then they can connect up 411 00:15:28,725 --> 00:15:31,549 with a local chapter and actually be trained 412 00:15:31,549 --> 00:15:34,029 to do this work. But aside from that, 413 00:15:34,029 --> 00:15:36,289 they can, in their own practice, 414 00:15:36,750 --> 00:15:38,690 they can examine their own reflexive 415 00:15:39,070 --> 00:15:39,570 tendency 416 00:15:40,350 --> 00:15:42,884 to do eye rolling about people who are 417 00:15:42,884 --> 00:15:44,745 MAGA, to side emotionally 418 00:15:45,125 --> 00:15:47,524 with their client who's saying, I got uncle 419 00:15:47,524 --> 00:15:49,125 Fred at Thanksgiving. I don't know what to 420 00:15:49,125 --> 00:15:51,445 do with him. And to side with what 421 00:15:51,445 --> 00:15:53,845 they may do in portraying uncle Fred in 422 00:15:53,845 --> 00:15:55,044 a one dimensional way, 423 00:15:55,720 --> 00:15:57,720 you know, as opposed to a three-dimensional human 424 00:15:57,720 --> 00:15:58,220 being. 425 00:15:58,600 --> 00:16:00,779 The stuff that that happens in the room 426 00:16:00,840 --> 00:16:03,580 when our our own political affiliations 427 00:16:03,960 --> 00:16:05,960 come out, try to resist that, and we 428 00:16:05,960 --> 00:16:08,620 can try to keep uncle Fred as a 429 00:16:08,855 --> 00:16:11,014 as a as a three-dimensional person in our 430 00:16:11,014 --> 00:16:13,175 minds and encourage our clients to do that. 431 00:16:13,175 --> 00:16:14,855 I love I love the visual image of 432 00:16:14,855 --> 00:16:17,595 uncle Fred being at the dinner table. Yeah. 433 00:16:17,654 --> 00:16:19,415 Yeah. And now here's what I do when 434 00:16:19,415 --> 00:16:22,295 I give presentations. I say, every extended family 435 00:16:22,295 --> 00:16:24,379 has an uncle Fred who is gonna set 436 00:16:24,379 --> 00:16:26,940 everybody straight about Donald Trump being the greatest 437 00:16:26,940 --> 00:16:30,059 president since Abraham Lincoln. Okay? And he's he's 438 00:16:30,059 --> 00:16:32,059 closing in on Lincoln. Okay? He's there to 439 00:16:32,059 --> 00:16:34,059 make sure everybody knows that. But they also 440 00:16:34,059 --> 00:16:35,440 have a cousin, Jessica, 441 00:16:35,784 --> 00:16:38,205 who on the left, who's gonna fix everybody's 442 00:16:38,264 --> 00:16:40,664 language, who when you use the word prisoner 443 00:16:40,664 --> 00:16:42,904 is gonna say, no. It's a person with 444 00:16:42,904 --> 00:16:45,865 experience of the criminal justice system. Okay? And 445 00:16:45,865 --> 00:16:48,184 it's gonna just crap on you for that. 446 00:16:48,184 --> 00:16:50,740 You know, it's easy to to tell stories, 447 00:16:50,960 --> 00:16:53,139 to think the stories are great of changes 448 00:16:53,279 --> 00:16:54,799 of people maybe who are on the right 449 00:16:54,799 --> 00:16:57,139 of the political spectrum, who haven't been sensitive 450 00:16:57,200 --> 00:16:59,759 to, you know, marginalized people who come around. 451 00:16:59,759 --> 00:17:01,904 Right? And certainly, there are those stories. But 452 00:17:01,904 --> 00:17:04,144 I wanna tell a story about a guy 453 00:17:04,144 --> 00:17:06,545 on the left who told me once that 454 00:17:06,545 --> 00:17:08,164 he actively discriminated 455 00:17:08,625 --> 00:17:09,684 against conservatives 456 00:17:10,305 --> 00:17:13,184 for housing. He he was a landlord in 457 00:17:13,184 --> 00:17:14,785 a number of apartments. And if he had 458 00:17:14,785 --> 00:17:16,220 a sense that somebody 459 00:17:16,519 --> 00:17:17,420 was a Republican, 460 00:17:17,880 --> 00:17:20,039 he would, not rent to them. And what 461 00:17:20,039 --> 00:17:21,660 he told me is that red 462 00:17:22,039 --> 00:17:24,679 is not a protected class, so he can 463 00:17:24,679 --> 00:17:27,480 decide who he's gonna rent to. He attended 464 00:17:27,480 --> 00:17:29,900 a Brave Angels workshop and had an experience, 465 00:17:30,279 --> 00:17:32,734 okay, of change. And he told me that 466 00:17:32,734 --> 00:17:35,134 the next week he was chatting with somebody 467 00:17:35,134 --> 00:17:37,775 who was clearly on the political right. And 468 00:17:37,775 --> 00:17:39,694 what he said to this man was, there 469 00:17:39,694 --> 00:17:41,375 are people in power who want us to 470 00:17:41,375 --> 00:17:43,375 hate each other. Let's not do it. And 471 00:17:43,375 --> 00:17:44,674 he cried. Yeah. 472 00:17:45,119 --> 00:17:47,599 When Obama and McCain would sit next to 473 00:17:47,599 --> 00:17:50,400 one another. Yes. Yes. That's what just flashed 474 00:17:50,400 --> 00:17:52,400 in my brain, this this idea of real 475 00:17:52,400 --> 00:17:53,380 grace and dignity 476 00:17:54,079 --> 00:17:57,380 to yeah. Yeah. That's a great visual image 477 00:17:57,440 --> 00:17:57,940 because 478 00:17:58,434 --> 00:18:00,914 Obama's eulogy at McCain's funeral 479 00:18:01,315 --> 00:18:04,355 Yes. Yes. Yes. These are our our our 480 00:18:04,355 --> 00:18:07,234 better angels. We don't like ourselves as much 481 00:18:07,234 --> 00:18:09,654 when we're we sit with resentment and contempt 482 00:18:09,795 --> 00:18:11,809 for others. I love it. I love it. 483 00:18:11,869 --> 00:18:14,349 You know, Bill, you're so generous with your 484 00:18:14,349 --> 00:18:17,230 time, and you're generous with me with all 485 00:18:17,230 --> 00:18:19,470 the probing questions, and you've explained it in 486 00:18:19,470 --> 00:18:21,470 a way that really makes a difference. So 487 00:18:21,470 --> 00:18:22,130 thank you. 488 00:18:22,525 --> 00:18:24,545 Thank you for helping to repair the community. 489 00:18:24,684 --> 00:18:25,825 Really appreciate it. 490 00:18:33,804 --> 00:18:35,565 Thanks for listening to This Is Your Job 491 00:18:35,565 --> 00:18:38,190 Now, produced by me, Kai. If this episode 492 00:18:38,190 --> 00:18:39,869 made you think or made you feel, we 493 00:18:39,869 --> 00:18:41,710 hope it also made you realize. You don't 494 00:18:41,710 --> 00:18:43,549 have to figure this out all alone. Leadership 495 00:18:43,549 --> 00:18:45,869 today is about presence, not perfection. To learn 496 00:18:45,869 --> 00:18:48,190 more, follow Wendy Wohner on LinkedIn, subscribe to 497 00:18:48,190 --> 00:18:50,472 Balancing Life's Issues on YouTube, or stream the 498 00:18:50,472 --> 00:18:52,712 podcast wherever you listen. Because if you're leading 499 00:18:52,712 --> 00:18:55,112 people, this is your job now. Anything else 500 00:18:55,112 --> 00:18:55,932 to add, Miles?