1 00:00:02,720 --> 00:00:04,639 I was a dude, then I was a 2 00:00:04,639 --> 00:00:06,960 boyfriend, then I was a husband, then I 3 00:00:06,960 --> 00:00:09,599 was a father. You know? And and my 4 00:00:09,599 --> 00:00:12,134 dude self sometimes wants to come out more. 5 00:00:12,214 --> 00:00:15,095 And and the resolution of my dude self 6 00:00:15,095 --> 00:00:17,894 with my father self is sometimes a real 7 00:00:17,894 --> 00:00:18,394 struggle. 8 00:00:22,054 --> 00:00:24,454 Hi. I'm Kai Sorensen, director of podcast here 9 00:00:24,454 --> 00:00:26,550 at Balancing Life's Issues. And welcome to a 10 00:00:26,550 --> 00:00:28,469 very special two part drop of This Is 11 00:00:28,469 --> 00:00:29,289 Your Job Now. 12 00:00:29,670 --> 00:00:31,350 If you've listened to this show before, you 13 00:00:31,350 --> 00:00:33,289 know we talk a lot about real leadership, 14 00:00:33,590 --> 00:00:35,030 the kind that shows up for the whole 15 00:00:35,030 --> 00:00:36,729 person, the total individual. 16 00:00:37,109 --> 00:00:39,530 And in this conversation with doctor Jason Frishman, 17 00:00:39,670 --> 00:00:41,450 we're taking that idea into fresh 18 00:00:41,935 --> 00:00:44,814 fatherhood, mental health, and why well-being isn't just 19 00:00:44,814 --> 00:00:47,854 about fixing what's broken. It's about intentionally building 20 00:00:47,854 --> 00:00:50,515 what helps us thrive. Jason's a clinical psychologist, 21 00:00:50,734 --> 00:00:53,295 guide, and father who's spent decades helping men 22 00:00:53,295 --> 00:00:55,530 connect with themselves and each other in ways 23 00:00:55,530 --> 00:00:57,450 that challenge old stories about what it means 24 00:00:57,450 --> 00:00:59,689 to quote, unquote man up. In part one, 25 00:00:59,689 --> 00:01:01,449 we're going to talk about why fathers need 26 00:01:01,449 --> 00:01:04,010 community, what it looks like to challenge outdated 27 00:01:04,010 --> 00:01:04,989 ideas of masculinity, 28 00:01:05,369 --> 00:01:07,609 and how leaders, yes, even those who are 29 00:01:07,609 --> 00:01:10,164 not dads, can create supportive spaces that help 30 00:01:10,164 --> 00:01:12,004 people show up as their full selves at 31 00:01:12,004 --> 00:01:14,164 work and at home. In part two, Jason 32 00:01:14,164 --> 00:01:16,744 will guide you, especially the fathers tuning in, 33 00:01:16,804 --> 00:01:19,625 through a practical exercise called the values compass. 34 00:01:20,004 --> 00:01:22,405 If you can find fifteen quiet minutes, you'll 35 00:01:22,405 --> 00:01:24,530 be able to pause, reflect, and map out 36 00:01:24,530 --> 00:01:26,689 what really matters most for you, your family 37 00:01:26,689 --> 00:01:27,750 and the way you lead. 38 00:01:28,049 --> 00:01:29,810 So settle in. This is your moment to 39 00:01:29,810 --> 00:01:32,230 breathe, to listen, and maybe to see fatherhood 40 00:01:32,290 --> 00:01:33,030 and well-being 41 00:01:33,409 --> 00:01:35,409 in a whole new way because showing up 42 00:01:35,409 --> 00:01:36,469 for the total individual 43 00:01:37,090 --> 00:01:39,109 is your job now. Let's get started. 44 00:01:40,185 --> 00:01:42,265 Welcome to This Is Your Job Now because 45 00:01:42,265 --> 00:01:44,924 leadership means showing up, especially when it's uncomfortable. 46 00:01:45,545 --> 00:01:47,405 Today's guest is Jason Frishman, 47 00:01:47,704 --> 00:01:50,924 therapist, facilitator, and founder of the Journeyman Foundation. 48 00:01:51,305 --> 00:01:53,939 He's built a space where men, especially dads, 49 00:01:54,020 --> 00:01:55,700 can be real about what they're going through, 50 00:01:55,700 --> 00:01:58,020 not just as parents, but as people, which 51 00:01:58,020 --> 00:01:59,859 is why Greg and I are here leading 52 00:01:59,859 --> 00:02:02,020 this discussion as opposed to Wendy because we 53 00:02:02,020 --> 00:02:04,100 are brand new dads. We're not brand new. 54 00:02:04,100 --> 00:02:05,380 What am I talking about? Greg, tell us 55 00:02:05,380 --> 00:02:06,284 a little bit about, 56 00:02:06,685 --> 00:02:08,444 your current family life, and then I'll I'll 57 00:02:08,444 --> 00:02:10,465 go into mine before we bring in Jason. 58 00:02:10,764 --> 00:02:11,504 Yeah. I've 59 00:02:11,805 --> 00:02:12,625 got a lovely, 60 00:02:13,324 --> 00:02:14,544 wife and two children, 61 00:02:14,844 --> 00:02:17,564 two daughters. They, in a month, they will 62 00:02:17,564 --> 00:02:19,665 be four and two. 63 00:02:20,310 --> 00:02:23,030 My wife and I have, a son who's 64 00:02:23,030 --> 00:02:25,110 gonna be two at the June, and that 65 00:02:25,110 --> 00:02:27,189 will bring us to our guest. Jason, welcome 66 00:02:27,189 --> 00:02:28,569 to this is your job now. 67 00:02:29,110 --> 00:02:30,870 Excellent. Thank you all so much, and I'm 68 00:02:30,870 --> 00:02:32,710 really glad to be here. I'll follow suit 69 00:02:32,710 --> 00:02:34,474 and say I have two sons, wife and 70 00:02:34,474 --> 00:02:36,875 two sons. We live here in, rural Vermont, 71 00:02:36,875 --> 00:02:37,375 and 72 00:02:37,675 --> 00:02:40,074 they are 17 and 14. Well, here we 73 00:02:40,074 --> 00:02:41,834 are. You know, we're Greg and I are 74 00:02:41,834 --> 00:02:43,675 both deeply curious about the work you do 75 00:02:43,675 --> 00:02:45,354 with fathers. So I guess tell us a 76 00:02:45,354 --> 00:02:47,194 little bit about what you do, how you 77 00:02:47,194 --> 00:02:49,030 got there, and I guess 78 00:02:49,409 --> 00:02:51,090 maybe at the end of that question, you 79 00:02:51,090 --> 00:02:53,889 know, why should leaders care about fatherhood? That's 80 00:02:53,889 --> 00:02:55,730 the question. Right? But, you know, a little 81 00:02:55,730 --> 00:02:56,629 background is 82 00:02:57,090 --> 00:02:59,909 I've been a psychologist for thirty years 83 00:03:00,210 --> 00:03:00,710 practicing 84 00:03:01,090 --> 00:03:03,030 primarily as a psychotherapist. 85 00:03:03,875 --> 00:03:06,435 And so for the vast majority of that 86 00:03:06,435 --> 00:03:09,235 time, I've worked with boys, families, and men. 87 00:03:09,235 --> 00:03:12,135 And as my career has moved on, 88 00:03:12,514 --> 00:03:14,514 I've worked more and more with men and 89 00:03:14,514 --> 00:03:17,014 fathers and become really passionate about 90 00:03:18,180 --> 00:03:21,319 the sort of mental health, social health, connective 91 00:03:21,699 --> 00:03:23,319 health of men and men's. 92 00:03:23,699 --> 00:03:25,319 And so that became 93 00:03:25,860 --> 00:03:28,900 really a passion in my psychotherapy practice. My 94 00:03:28,900 --> 00:03:30,819 my caseload sort of evolved. I saw more 95 00:03:30,819 --> 00:03:32,580 and more men, more and more men who 96 00:03:32,580 --> 00:03:33,080 were 97 00:03:33,415 --> 00:03:33,915 doodads. 98 00:03:34,294 --> 00:03:35,835 And and really this idea 99 00:03:36,694 --> 00:03:39,575 of fathering as a verb became really important 100 00:03:39,575 --> 00:03:41,335 to me. Like, as men, what are we 101 00:03:41,335 --> 00:03:42,955 fathering? What are we bringing 102 00:03:43,415 --> 00:03:45,435 to to the table? And and so, 103 00:03:46,480 --> 00:03:47,599 about 2019, 104 00:03:47,599 --> 00:03:48,420 2018, 105 00:03:48,480 --> 00:03:51,280 before the pandemic, I started Journeyman as a 106 00:03:51,280 --> 00:03:54,960 coaching program mostly to be able to bring 107 00:03:54,960 --> 00:03:57,520 the work out of the psychotherapy space for 108 00:03:57,520 --> 00:03:58,340 lots of really 109 00:03:58,640 --> 00:04:02,164 different and and powerful reasons. But primarily, as 110 00:04:02,164 --> 00:04:02,824 a coach, 111 00:04:03,125 --> 00:04:05,125 we have a little bit more freedom to 112 00:04:05,125 --> 00:04:05,944 work outside 113 00:04:06,405 --> 00:04:09,224 the sort of realm of the office. Metaphorically 114 00:04:09,444 --> 00:04:11,525 and literally, we can be out of the 115 00:04:11,525 --> 00:04:14,324 therapy office. Which brings me to your question 116 00:04:14,324 --> 00:04:16,620 around leadership and why should leaders care about 117 00:04:16,779 --> 00:04:17,279 fathers 118 00:04:17,740 --> 00:04:19,660 is because we are out of the office. 119 00:04:19,660 --> 00:04:21,339 We're at home. We're at work. We're you 120 00:04:21,339 --> 00:04:23,500 know, when you hold the role and the 121 00:04:23,500 --> 00:04:25,579 identity of a father, you don't put it 122 00:04:25,579 --> 00:04:27,439 down for work, right? You don't 123 00:04:27,979 --> 00:04:29,419 leave it when you go out with your 124 00:04:29,419 --> 00:04:32,079 friends. You don't you know, it's always there. 125 00:04:32,334 --> 00:04:33,154 And so, 126 00:04:33,774 --> 00:04:36,814 as leaders, if we help men integrate that 127 00:04:36,814 --> 00:04:37,954 role and that identity 128 00:04:38,414 --> 00:04:40,654 into the other areas and arenas of their 129 00:04:40,654 --> 00:04:41,154 lives, 130 00:04:41,694 --> 00:04:42,194 everything 131 00:04:42,495 --> 00:04:43,235 gets better. 132 00:04:43,774 --> 00:04:46,290 When we heal men, we heal our our 133 00:04:46,290 --> 00:04:48,550 our communities and our cultures and whatnot. 134 00:04:49,730 --> 00:04:51,169 Yeah. So I guess it may got me 135 00:04:51,169 --> 00:04:52,850 thinking of, like, is there a recent example? 136 00:04:52,850 --> 00:04:55,350 Maybe we can all provide one of where 137 00:04:55,649 --> 00:04:57,490 fatherhood moment, and now I have to go 138 00:04:57,490 --> 00:04:59,169 to work, and maybe I wasn't able to 139 00:04:59,169 --> 00:04:59,669 leave 140 00:05:00,324 --> 00:05:01,925 fatherhood at the table, or maybe I shouldn't 141 00:05:01,925 --> 00:05:04,164 have left fatherhood, you know, at the door. 142 00:05:04,164 --> 00:05:05,845 So, like, Greg, is anything coming to mind 143 00:05:05,845 --> 00:05:08,104 recently of father bleeding into work? 144 00:05:08,964 --> 00:05:09,464 Sure. 145 00:05:10,724 --> 00:05:12,485 I mean, there's many times where I forget 146 00:05:12,485 --> 00:05:14,104 to lock the door to this 147 00:05:14,610 --> 00:05:16,529 space that I'm currently in right now that 148 00:05:16,529 --> 00:05:19,569 I work work from. And, I I work 149 00:05:19,569 --> 00:05:20,449 from home, and, 150 00:05:20,850 --> 00:05:24,149 my eldest daughter finds her way in. And 151 00:05:24,290 --> 00:05:26,610 she has joined many a meeting where I've 152 00:05:26,610 --> 00:05:29,375 been like, oh, please excuse me. There's a 153 00:05:29,375 --> 00:05:32,175 toddler in the background. She's just hanging. Give 154 00:05:32,175 --> 00:05:32,834 me just 155 00:05:33,134 --> 00:05:35,535 fifteen seconds. Just give me some grace here, 156 00:05:35,535 --> 00:05:35,774 and, 157 00:05:36,495 --> 00:05:38,735 I'm very thankful that I, for the most 158 00:05:38,735 --> 00:05:40,814 part, we're in a environment, Kai, and you 159 00:05:40,814 --> 00:05:42,194 could speak to this too, that 160 00:05:43,029 --> 00:05:43,529 that 161 00:05:43,990 --> 00:05:46,709 is very much part of our culture of 162 00:05:46,709 --> 00:05:48,810 finding that flexibility and understanding 163 00:05:49,189 --> 00:05:51,189 that we take every bit of life that 164 00:05:51,189 --> 00:05:53,509 is thrown our way and integrate it into 165 00:05:53,509 --> 00:05:55,829 our work environment. So for that, we're very 166 00:05:55,829 --> 00:05:58,569 fortunate. But, yeah, I think there also sometimes, 167 00:05:59,555 --> 00:06:01,634 you know, this job isn't exactly nine to 168 00:06:01,634 --> 00:06:03,975 five. Right? We get the calls at 169 00:06:04,355 --> 00:06:07,154 six, 06:30, sometimes seven. Right? 170 00:06:07,714 --> 00:06:09,814 So there have been times where I've been 171 00:06:10,514 --> 00:06:12,134 going down the street or just recently, 172 00:06:12,720 --> 00:06:14,800 was with my daughter. She was going for 173 00:06:14,800 --> 00:06:16,560 a bike ride down the street, then I 174 00:06:16,560 --> 00:06:18,160 was walking alongside her, and I got a 175 00:06:18,160 --> 00:06:20,100 call. It was a little bit after hours, 176 00:06:20,400 --> 00:06:21,600 and I picked it up and I said, 177 00:06:21,600 --> 00:06:23,279 hi. I'm so glad you called. I know 178 00:06:23,279 --> 00:06:24,259 this is a time sensitive, 179 00:06:24,639 --> 00:06:27,105 thing, but just just so you know, there's 180 00:06:27,105 --> 00:06:29,345 a toddler in tow, so you might hear 181 00:06:29,345 --> 00:06:31,745 some of that. And if our conversation gets 182 00:06:31,745 --> 00:06:32,245 interrupted 183 00:06:32,545 --> 00:06:34,644 briefly, I do apologize. But, 184 00:06:35,185 --> 00:06:37,024 you know, those are just some examples of, 185 00:06:37,345 --> 00:06:40,225 integrating fatherhood into work and vice versa. Just 186 00:06:40,225 --> 00:06:42,004 that flexibility is so important. 187 00:06:42,839 --> 00:06:44,520 Yeah. And I think, Jason, I think the 188 00:06:44,520 --> 00:06:45,720 question I wanna add too because I 189 00:06:46,759 --> 00:06:49,240 those same anecdotes and more for myself, I 190 00:06:49,240 --> 00:06:51,319 think more recently might have been more about, 191 00:06:51,319 --> 00:06:52,939 like, just sleep, like, 192 00:06:53,959 --> 00:06:56,215 lack thereof, maybe kind of bringing that kind 193 00:06:56,215 --> 00:06:57,975 of fatigue to the workplace. So I think, 194 00:06:57,975 --> 00:06:59,335 Jason, over to you, though, the question I 195 00:06:59,335 --> 00:07:01,415 have is is for leaders who are not 196 00:07:01,415 --> 00:07:04,235 flexible or who are not empathetic to that 197 00:07:04,375 --> 00:07:06,615 that version of a person who's who's in 198 00:07:06,615 --> 00:07:08,970 the office today, who's maybe sleep deprived or 199 00:07:09,370 --> 00:07:11,689 at home working because the kids are sick 200 00:07:11,689 --> 00:07:14,490 and the you know? What what does that 201 00:07:14,490 --> 00:07:16,970 do to, like, maybe the psychological safety of 202 00:07:16,970 --> 00:07:18,649 someone in the workplace who doesn't feel like 203 00:07:18,649 --> 00:07:21,014 they have that support from leadership? Okay. It's 204 00:07:21,175 --> 00:07:23,095 that's such a huge question, you know, because 205 00:07:23,095 --> 00:07:24,375 as soon as you said that, I I 206 00:07:24,375 --> 00:07:26,055 sort of went in a lot of different 207 00:07:26,055 --> 00:07:27,194 directions because, 208 00:07:27,895 --> 00:07:29,895 you know, the idea of what it does 209 00:07:29,895 --> 00:07:33,300 to psychological safety is so important to, like, 210 00:07:33,379 --> 00:07:35,699 being an efficient and effective worker and and 211 00:07:35,699 --> 00:07:37,939 being present with all of your your colleagues 212 00:07:37,939 --> 00:07:39,879 and all of those things. And, also, 213 00:07:40,419 --> 00:07:42,039 it sends a bigger message 214 00:07:42,579 --> 00:07:44,819 to that individual man for when he's at 215 00:07:44,819 --> 00:07:46,899 home as well. Right? Where, basically, when leaders 216 00:07:46,899 --> 00:07:49,159 aren't empathetic to the situation of fatherhood, 217 00:07:49,834 --> 00:07:50,814 we are basically 218 00:07:51,354 --> 00:07:51,854 suggesting 219 00:07:52,235 --> 00:07:53,375 or strong arming 220 00:07:54,074 --> 00:07:56,954 you must be separate. You must create different 221 00:07:56,954 --> 00:07:58,714 identities. You must be at work, then you 222 00:07:58,714 --> 00:08:01,055 must be at home. And definitely don't bring, 223 00:08:01,115 --> 00:08:02,875 you know, bring work home, but don't bring 224 00:08:02,875 --> 00:08:05,500 home to work. Right? Like, that becomes a 225 00:08:05,500 --> 00:08:06,480 message that 226 00:08:08,060 --> 00:08:08,800 is painful 227 00:08:09,180 --> 00:08:12,400 for so many men. And so psychological safety, 228 00:08:12,460 --> 00:08:13,420 it sort of 229 00:08:13,900 --> 00:08:14,400 the 230 00:08:14,833 --> 00:08:15,333 un 231 00:08:16,699 --> 00:08:17,680 the aunt's ease 232 00:08:18,154 --> 00:08:20,634 of that moves from work to home and 233 00:08:20,634 --> 00:08:22,795 vice versa, and so men carry that. That 234 00:08:22,795 --> 00:08:23,935 becomes an extra 235 00:08:24,555 --> 00:08:27,615 weight on top of many of the other 236 00:08:28,074 --> 00:08:31,615 things that fathers specifically are holding. And so, 237 00:08:31,675 --> 00:08:32,975 you know, at work, 238 00:08:33,440 --> 00:08:34,740 guys will be distracted. 239 00:08:35,360 --> 00:08:38,480 They're likely not going to be, you know, 240 00:08:38,480 --> 00:08:40,879 as free to be connected. Like, you know, 241 00:08:40,879 --> 00:08:42,320 Greg, when you gave your example, you say, 242 00:08:42,320 --> 00:08:43,600 yeah. You know, there's a toddler in tow, 243 00:08:43,600 --> 00:08:45,620 so if I get distracted, I'll tell you. 244 00:08:45,875 --> 00:08:48,034 Right? So you're suggesting something in the very 245 00:08:48,034 --> 00:08:51,875 beginning that then gives explicit permission in both 246 00:08:51,875 --> 00:08:53,315 directions to be like, hey. Hold on a 247 00:08:53,315 --> 00:08:54,454 minute. Let me do this. 248 00:08:54,834 --> 00:08:55,495 You know? 249 00:08:56,034 --> 00:08:58,355 I loved as a result of the pandemic 250 00:08:58,355 --> 00:09:00,514 and everything lots of things being on Zoom, 251 00:09:00,514 --> 00:09:02,549 I I sort of have loved watching, 252 00:09:02,929 --> 00:09:04,929 where in the middle of of some meeting, 253 00:09:04,929 --> 00:09:06,769 not therapy sessions. That's different. But in the 254 00:09:06,769 --> 00:09:09,090 middle of of some meeting, a kid comes 255 00:09:09,090 --> 00:09:11,809 in the back door or someone's screaming or, 256 00:09:11,809 --> 00:09:13,809 you know, those kind of things. And there 257 00:09:13,970 --> 00:09:15,774 there's been a bit of a shift, and 258 00:09:15,774 --> 00:09:17,634 I think it's a good thing. But 259 00:09:18,254 --> 00:09:20,815 without it, it is yeah. It it it 260 00:09:20,815 --> 00:09:23,875 impacts it's a downward spiral. It impacts workers, 261 00:09:23,934 --> 00:09:25,934 the community, and the culture at work, and 262 00:09:25,934 --> 00:09:28,575 it impacts the community culture at home for 263 00:09:28,575 --> 00:09:30,274 a father. It seems like 264 00:09:30,919 --> 00:09:32,519 like a lot of the work you do 265 00:09:32,519 --> 00:09:36,279 is challenging this traditional norm of of fathers 266 00:09:36,279 --> 00:09:38,440 in the workplace. Right? I'm father at home, 267 00:09:38,440 --> 00:09:40,620 and I am man working in the workplace. 268 00:09:41,720 --> 00:09:43,320 So I guess with the work you do, 269 00:09:43,320 --> 00:09:44,839 how do you how do you challenge that 270 00:09:44,839 --> 00:09:48,075 norm? And, like, what what kind of challenges 271 00:09:48,075 --> 00:09:49,535 do you see with people coming 272 00:09:50,394 --> 00:09:52,154 to kind of this where where you're at 273 00:09:52,154 --> 00:09:52,975 with all of this? 274 00:09:53,595 --> 00:09:55,615 Well, I, you know, I I think 275 00:09:56,394 --> 00:09:58,715 the first piece of challenging any norm is 276 00:09:58,715 --> 00:10:01,789 identifying it and seeing it. Right? The idea 277 00:10:01,929 --> 00:10:02,429 of 278 00:10:02,970 --> 00:10:05,529 typical norms that we all live in, it's 279 00:10:05,529 --> 00:10:07,450 like, you know, a fish, like, swimming in 280 00:10:07,450 --> 00:10:09,529 water. Right? It doesn't recognize it's in water. 281 00:10:09,529 --> 00:10:11,289 We don't often think about the air we 282 00:10:11,289 --> 00:10:11,789 breathe. 283 00:10:12,250 --> 00:10:14,490 And the stories and the norms and the 284 00:10:14,490 --> 00:10:15,629 behavior the patterns 285 00:10:17,125 --> 00:10:19,065 of sort of modern day fatherhood 286 00:10:19,605 --> 00:10:21,845 are things that we don't actually think about 287 00:10:21,845 --> 00:10:23,764 that often. We may think about, oh, this 288 00:10:23,764 --> 00:10:25,304 is stressful. Oh, I marinated. 289 00:10:25,845 --> 00:10:28,424 But we don't take the time to identify, 290 00:10:28,644 --> 00:10:29,945 recognize, and 291 00:10:30,485 --> 00:10:31,625 kind of explore 292 00:10:33,179 --> 00:10:36,299 these dominant kind of norms and ways of 293 00:10:36,299 --> 00:10:38,379 being. And so the very first thing is 294 00:10:38,379 --> 00:10:40,139 I asked a lot of questions about what 295 00:10:40,139 --> 00:10:42,480 it's like and how does that impact, and 296 00:10:42,539 --> 00:10:44,940 let's learn let's let's name that. Right? When 297 00:10:44,940 --> 00:10:46,399 you say this norm, right, 298 00:10:47,095 --> 00:10:48,554 maybe it is the nonempathetic 299 00:10:49,174 --> 00:10:51,335 norm. You know? We name it. Because now 300 00:10:51,335 --> 00:10:53,575 once we name it, we have something to 301 00:10:53,575 --> 00:10:56,134 reference, and we have a language. Right? The 302 00:10:56,134 --> 00:10:57,495 three of us now, if I say the 303 00:10:57,495 --> 00:11:00,075 nonempathetic norm, you know exactly what I'm talking. 304 00:11:00,839 --> 00:11:02,839 And so Right. Right. I can and and 305 00:11:02,839 --> 00:11:04,519 once I do that, I can recognize it 306 00:11:04,519 --> 00:11:06,600 more, and I can be aware of it. 307 00:11:06,600 --> 00:11:08,279 I can notice how that feels. I can 308 00:11:08,279 --> 00:11:10,039 notice how it feels when I'm doing well 309 00:11:10,039 --> 00:11:11,559 or when I'm not doing well, when I'm, 310 00:11:11,559 --> 00:11:13,559 you know, when I'm fed and not or 311 00:11:13,559 --> 00:11:15,659 hungry. You know? They they have different impact 312 00:11:16,154 --> 00:11:19,115 on our interactions with others have different impacts 313 00:11:19,115 --> 00:11:20,975 on us based on what's been going on. 314 00:11:21,115 --> 00:11:23,195 If I leave for work after having a 315 00:11:23,195 --> 00:11:24,575 big argument with my partner, 316 00:11:25,115 --> 00:11:27,134 I'm gonna show up at work slightly differently. 317 00:11:27,434 --> 00:11:29,434 If I come home after being yelled at 318 00:11:29,434 --> 00:11:31,034 by my boss, I'm gonna show up at 319 00:11:31,034 --> 00:11:31,534 home 320 00:11:32,210 --> 00:11:33,029 very differently. 321 00:11:33,730 --> 00:11:36,870 And so the idea of challenging these norms 322 00:11:37,009 --> 00:11:39,889 is to help guys first understand them and 323 00:11:39,889 --> 00:11:41,990 notice them. And then second, 324 00:11:42,529 --> 00:11:44,610 be at a place in their own sort 325 00:11:44,610 --> 00:11:45,670 of self awareness 326 00:11:46,625 --> 00:11:49,105 that they can understand what choices they can 327 00:11:49,105 --> 00:11:49,605 make 328 00:11:50,384 --> 00:11:52,225 that might be different and that might bring 329 00:11:52,225 --> 00:11:54,565 them to a more connected place, 330 00:11:54,945 --> 00:11:57,024 which is really ultimately, in many ways, the 331 00:11:57,024 --> 00:11:57,524 goal. 332 00:11:58,429 --> 00:12:00,509 Yeah. Yeah. No. That that all makes sense. 333 00:12:00,509 --> 00:12:01,949 And, Greg, I'm super curious what you think 334 00:12:01,949 --> 00:12:04,289 about this because I know with my generation, 335 00:12:04,509 --> 00:12:07,329 millennial, 37, at the time of this recording, 336 00:12:07,470 --> 00:12:09,389 it does feel like at least in my 337 00:12:09,389 --> 00:12:11,709 community of friends who have fathers. And I 338 00:12:11,709 --> 00:12:12,610 think culturally, 339 00:12:13,365 --> 00:12:15,684 there is more of a shift to, I 340 00:12:15,684 --> 00:12:16,664 think, fathers 341 00:12:16,965 --> 00:12:18,345 taking more of 342 00:12:18,884 --> 00:12:20,745 a hands on role in parenting, 343 00:12:21,205 --> 00:12:23,144 with nurturing, I think, especially. 344 00:12:24,164 --> 00:12:25,845 So I don't know. That's definitely been my 345 00:12:25,845 --> 00:12:28,424 experience. Like, my wife was not interested in, 346 00:12:29,259 --> 00:12:31,659 a family if it wasn't as much of 347 00:12:31,659 --> 00:12:34,059 a fifty fifty split as possible. And I 348 00:12:34,299 --> 00:12:36,240 we both admit right now with a toddler, 349 00:12:36,620 --> 00:12:39,279 it's closer to sixty forty in terms 350 00:12:39,659 --> 00:12:41,980 of mom need needing mom, which we're working 351 00:12:41,980 --> 00:12:42,480 on. 352 00:12:43,214 --> 00:12:45,375 But, yeah, Greg, I'm curious. Has that been 353 00:12:45,375 --> 00:12:47,475 your experience just kinda, like, within your, 354 00:12:47,934 --> 00:12:50,254 I guess, norm, like, what the air I 355 00:12:50,254 --> 00:12:52,434 am currently breathing and maybe trying to identify 356 00:12:52,495 --> 00:12:55,934 it? Totally. And, you know, similarly, Kai, we 357 00:12:56,254 --> 00:12:58,199 there is more of a gravitation 358 00:12:58,659 --> 00:13:00,899 from them to mom as well right now 359 00:13:00,899 --> 00:13:02,659 where it's like, mom has to, like 360 00:13:03,699 --> 00:13:06,339 she has to prepare the meal right now 361 00:13:06,339 --> 00:13:08,679 for whatever reason. Like, so I'm not break. 362 00:13:09,139 --> 00:13:10,980 Yeah. Like, for whatever reason, I can't do 363 00:13:10,980 --> 00:13:13,585 it according to my eldest. She's like, no, 364 00:13:13,585 --> 00:13:15,184 daddy. You can't do that. It has to 365 00:13:15,184 --> 00:13:15,924 be for mom. 366 00:13:16,304 --> 00:13:18,085 But to your point, yeah, 367 00:13:18,705 --> 00:13:20,485 the the expectation is definitely 368 00:13:20,785 --> 00:13:21,184 that, 369 00:13:22,144 --> 00:13:25,845 I'm as equally involved and available as, humanly 370 00:13:25,904 --> 00:13:26,545 possible. And, 371 00:13:27,639 --> 00:13:29,480 you know, I don't think we ever, like 372 00:13:29,720 --> 00:13:31,240 my wife and I ever sat down and 373 00:13:31,240 --> 00:13:32,220 had that conversation, 374 00:13:32,519 --> 00:13:34,360 but we were definitely on the same page. 375 00:13:34,360 --> 00:13:36,519 And we've mentioned it from time to time 376 00:13:36,519 --> 00:13:37,659 of, you know, like, 377 00:13:38,279 --> 00:13:40,779 finding the time to be equally there and 378 00:13:41,625 --> 00:13:43,165 just interesting to see. 379 00:13:43,705 --> 00:13:45,565 I don't have the the studies. 380 00:13:46,184 --> 00:13:48,665 Maybe we could do this after to support 381 00:13:48,665 --> 00:13:50,924 this, but there is something about, you know, 382 00:13:50,985 --> 00:13:53,544 how many diapers are changed by fathers as 383 00:13:53,544 --> 00:13:55,485 generations progress. Right? 384 00:13:55,960 --> 00:13:57,899 And, you know, going back to, 385 00:13:58,519 --> 00:14:01,159 you know, the the the fathers of baby 386 00:14:01,159 --> 00:14:04,519 boomers changed, like, rarely any diapers and then, 387 00:14:04,519 --> 00:14:07,100 you know, so forth. There's been more involvement 388 00:14:07,320 --> 00:14:09,019 there. So that's just, like, an interesting 389 00:14:09,480 --> 00:14:11,259 kind of perspective of, like, 390 00:14:11,615 --> 00:14:14,595 how fathers are involved in very small ways 391 00:14:14,894 --> 00:14:16,495 that, Kai, to you and I feel like 392 00:14:16,495 --> 00:14:18,995 no brainer, like a, yeah, a diaper change. 393 00:14:19,534 --> 00:14:21,714 No problem. Right? Like, of course. 394 00:14:22,095 --> 00:14:23,694 But I do I do remember, like, when 395 00:14:23,694 --> 00:14:24,894 Miles was first born, 396 00:14:25,454 --> 00:14:28,430 I think we live in a pretty pretty 397 00:14:28,430 --> 00:14:30,430 neutral community. There's a good mix of, you 398 00:14:30,430 --> 00:14:33,490 know, conservative values, liberal values, and I think 399 00:14:34,110 --> 00:14:36,350 it's a very nice community. But when I 400 00:14:36,430 --> 00:14:38,370 when Miles was first born, I do remember 401 00:14:38,990 --> 00:14:41,710 getting strange looks because I would have Miles 402 00:14:41,710 --> 00:14:43,615 strapped to me in the harness, 403 00:14:43,995 --> 00:14:46,394 you know, at the grocery store or or 404 00:14:46,394 --> 00:14:47,294 at the community 405 00:14:47,595 --> 00:14:48,095 music 406 00:14:48,554 --> 00:14:50,475 thing that was going on, definitely from an 407 00:14:50,475 --> 00:14:52,014 older community. Like, interesting. 408 00:14:52,394 --> 00:14:54,315 That seems more of, like, a maternal role 409 00:14:54,315 --> 00:14:56,154 that this person I wonder what he's all 410 00:14:56,154 --> 00:14:58,095 about. Right? It's like you could just see 411 00:14:58,449 --> 00:15:00,449 the gears turning, which is super interesting. So 412 00:15:00,449 --> 00:15:01,809 I think this is leading me to asking 413 00:15:01,809 --> 00:15:04,850 you, Jason, going back to leaders creating these 414 00:15:04,850 --> 00:15:07,889 supportive environments. Like, as the times change, it 415 00:15:07,889 --> 00:15:09,970 seems like as leaders, we need to be 416 00:15:09,970 --> 00:15:11,589 aware of this too that 417 00:15:11,914 --> 00:15:14,654 fathers are playing more of a role nowadays. 418 00:15:16,235 --> 00:15:16,735 Absolutely. 419 00:15:17,355 --> 00:15:19,375 You know, even more than leaders 420 00:15:19,754 --> 00:15:21,214 needing to be more aware, 421 00:15:21,595 --> 00:15:24,314 leaders need to be leading. Right? Like, this 422 00:15:24,314 --> 00:15:27,009 is a change. And what's interesting and I 423 00:15:27,009 --> 00:15:28,850 don't remember the exact percentage, so I'm not 424 00:15:28,850 --> 00:15:31,490 gonna state it incorrectly just in case. But 425 00:15:31,490 --> 00:15:33,990 there's some huge percentage, 426 00:15:35,250 --> 00:15:38,769 statistically, that fathers are spending more time nurturing 427 00:15:38,769 --> 00:15:41,384 and caring and and being with their kids. 428 00:15:42,264 --> 00:15:44,764 But the interesting thing about that statistic 429 00:15:45,225 --> 00:15:45,884 is that 430 00:15:46,424 --> 00:15:47,245 there aren't 431 00:15:48,024 --> 00:15:49,245 that a proportionally 432 00:15:50,345 --> 00:15:51,004 a proportionate 433 00:15:51,384 --> 00:15:54,879 level of resources for fathers who are now 434 00:15:54,879 --> 00:15:56,879 staying home doing things that they were not 435 00:15:56,879 --> 00:15:59,279 trained by their own fathers today. To no 436 00:15:59,279 --> 00:16:01,839 fault of the fathers, but but, like, let's 437 00:16:01,839 --> 00:16:05,039 just say we're home and we're engaged 300% 438 00:16:05,039 --> 00:16:06,179 more than in the fifties. 439 00:16:06,720 --> 00:16:08,740 That means we have 300% 440 00:16:08,799 --> 00:16:09,860 more opportunity 441 00:16:10,695 --> 00:16:11,915 grew up. 442 00:16:12,695 --> 00:16:14,695 You know? And it's an interesting shift. I 443 00:16:14,695 --> 00:16:16,134 don't mean it that way because it's a 444 00:16:16,134 --> 00:16:18,555 lovely thing, and I'm all for it. But 445 00:16:19,095 --> 00:16:20,934 we're now at home. We are all well 446 00:16:20,934 --> 00:16:23,014 meaning. We're, you know, we're carrying our kids. 447 00:16:23,014 --> 00:16:25,195 We're changing diapers. We're doing all those things, 448 00:16:25,279 --> 00:16:27,919 And yet we're still holding these old stories 449 00:16:27,919 --> 00:16:30,320 and old norms about what fatherhood is, about 450 00:16:30,320 --> 00:16:32,500 what masculinity is. And 451 00:16:32,879 --> 00:16:35,620 we have this need to really 452 00:16:36,000 --> 00:16:39,620 support and educate and and really guide, 453 00:16:40,225 --> 00:16:41,985 fathers who are willing to sort of take 454 00:16:41,985 --> 00:16:44,404 that journey. So to your question about leaders, 455 00:16:44,785 --> 00:16:47,424 the idea that leaders become more aware that 456 00:16:47,424 --> 00:16:48,404 fathers are 457 00:16:49,105 --> 00:16:49,605 even 458 00:16:50,544 --> 00:16:53,360 if we're at work, we're thinking about our 459 00:16:53,360 --> 00:16:55,680 kids more than just the obligatory picture on 460 00:16:55,680 --> 00:16:58,240 your desk. And so Yeah. You know, are 461 00:16:58,240 --> 00:17:01,860 there resource groups? Are there supports? Are there 462 00:17:02,000 --> 00:17:04,799 you know, is there time that structures put 463 00:17:04,799 --> 00:17:08,575 in that fathers can, you know, in honestly, 464 00:17:08,575 --> 00:17:10,674 in service of being a 465 00:17:11,214 --> 00:17:12,194 better employee, 466 00:17:12,575 --> 00:17:15,954 a more effective man, a more related human, 467 00:17:17,294 --> 00:17:18,894 this is a place that at work that 468 00:17:18,894 --> 00:17:20,515 that can happen really effectively, 469 00:17:20,894 --> 00:17:22,515 and it's win win for everyone. 470 00:17:23,720 --> 00:17:25,240 Yeah. And I I think that kinda gets 471 00:17:25,240 --> 00:17:26,920 me back to kinda the work you do 472 00:17:26,920 --> 00:17:28,840 because I know Greg and I have remarked 473 00:17:28,840 --> 00:17:31,160 even before you were on our radars that, 474 00:17:31,160 --> 00:17:33,960 you know, we're both the first and, Greg, 475 00:17:33,960 --> 00:17:36,654 you'll correct me if I'm miss misspeaking, but 476 00:17:36,654 --> 00:17:38,095 I think we're both the first of our 477 00:17:38,095 --> 00:17:40,815 friend groups, to have kids. So when it 478 00:17:40,974 --> 00:17:42,575 like, because the close friends I have who 479 00:17:42,575 --> 00:17:45,134 have children are back in Nebraska, and this 480 00:17:45,134 --> 00:17:46,335 has been going on for a while. Right? 481 00:17:46,335 --> 00:17:47,615 I moved to the East Coast, and life 482 00:17:47,615 --> 00:17:50,039 is a little different. And, you know, there 483 00:17:50,039 --> 00:17:52,119 was a real sense of loneliness, especially with 484 00:17:52,119 --> 00:17:53,399 my core group of friends who I, you 485 00:17:53,399 --> 00:17:55,399 know, I tour with in a band that 486 00:17:55,399 --> 00:17:57,720 although they're very happy for me and they're 487 00:17:57,720 --> 00:18:00,220 so supportive, there's just there's just 488 00:18:00,679 --> 00:18:02,595 that that little piece, that disconnect that they're 489 00:18:02,595 --> 00:18:05,075 not support can't really be there in certain 490 00:18:05,075 --> 00:18:07,654 ways because of that lived experience. And 491 00:18:08,035 --> 00:18:10,275 enter Greg, who I'd worked with for years 492 00:18:10,275 --> 00:18:12,755 and in another job, and now he's he's 493 00:18:12,755 --> 00:18:14,275 back here. Well, the one of the first 494 00:18:14,275 --> 00:18:16,820 things that I benefited greatly from Greg was 495 00:18:16,820 --> 00:18:19,140 just this idea of, like, oh, man. Last 496 00:18:19,140 --> 00:18:19,860 night was rough. 497 00:18:20,660 --> 00:18:22,500 And, like, Greg being able to say, like, 498 00:18:22,500 --> 00:18:23,779 oh, yeah. I've been there. You know? And, 499 00:18:23,779 --> 00:18:25,220 you know, Greg is that has been your 500 00:18:25,220 --> 00:18:27,620 experience as well. I'm Yeah. Yeah. We have 501 00:18:27,620 --> 00:18:30,440 very similar lived experience there because similarly, 502 00:18:30,784 --> 00:18:31,605 also in a 503 00:18:31,984 --> 00:18:33,924 band, bandmates don't have children 504 00:18:34,224 --> 00:18:35,904 either. So there's you know? And as you 505 00:18:35,904 --> 00:18:36,964 said, supportive, 506 00:18:37,345 --> 00:18:40,005 but they don't they're just missing that, like, 507 00:18:40,304 --> 00:18:42,544 the stuff that happens behind the scenes that, 508 00:18:42,544 --> 00:18:44,224 like, I can't really go to them to 509 00:18:44,224 --> 00:18:45,044 talk about 510 00:18:45,529 --> 00:18:47,609 because they can't relate to it. They'll listen. 511 00:18:47,609 --> 00:18:49,929 They're open to hearing it, but, 512 00:18:51,049 --> 00:18:53,609 we we Kai, I'm, like, searching for someone 513 00:18:53,609 --> 00:18:54,589 to be like, yo, 514 00:18:55,769 --> 00:18:57,289 you're in it with me. You get it. 515 00:18:57,289 --> 00:18:59,049 Right? So, like, Kai, you're one of, like, 516 00:18:59,049 --> 00:19:01,065 the very few people that I can go 517 00:19:01,065 --> 00:19:02,924 to about that sort of thing, and 518 00:19:03,384 --> 00:19:05,944 I think this is a perfect segue, Jason, 519 00:19:05,944 --> 00:19:07,484 for you, which is that, like, 520 00:19:07,944 --> 00:19:09,724 there's that need for, like, 521 00:19:10,825 --> 00:19:13,865 father father connection. Right? There's gotta be, like, 522 00:19:13,865 --> 00:19:17,440 that, that community of just, like, fathers being 523 00:19:17,440 --> 00:19:19,140 able to speak to each other 524 00:19:20,000 --> 00:19:21,940 and just have that relation. Right? 525 00:19:22,720 --> 00:19:25,120 Absolutely. I'll just quick quick anecdote before we 526 00:19:25,120 --> 00:19:26,960 get to the community piece, and and I 527 00:19:26,960 --> 00:19:28,480 think I know where you're going with that. 528 00:19:28,480 --> 00:19:30,785 But, you know, my dearest One of my 529 00:19:30,785 --> 00:19:32,785 dearest oldest friends, we've known each other for 530 00:19:32,865 --> 00:19:35,525 since we were 12. I'm 51 now. And 531 00:19:35,585 --> 00:19:38,005 he When my 17 year old was born, 532 00:19:38,304 --> 00:19:38,804 coincidentally, 533 00:19:39,105 --> 00:19:40,244 he moved to the area. 534 00:19:41,265 --> 00:19:43,880 No kids at the time, wasn't married. And 535 00:19:43,880 --> 00:19:45,960 so, like, I had a newborn, and he'd 536 00:19:45,960 --> 00:19:47,880 call in, like, a Wednesday at ten and 537 00:19:47,880 --> 00:19:49,080 be like, hey. Do you wanna come meet 538 00:19:49,080 --> 00:19:51,000 me? We're going out. I'm like Mhmm. Oh, 539 00:19:51,000 --> 00:19:53,240 no. I'm I don't wanna do that. You 540 00:19:53,240 --> 00:19:55,240 know? You can't even come over here because 541 00:19:55,240 --> 00:19:56,840 I'm going to bed when I come to 542 00:19:56,840 --> 00:19:58,059 bed. Right. And 543 00:19:58,625 --> 00:20:00,805 he was great. I mean, he he understood 544 00:20:00,865 --> 00:20:02,785 and whatever, but like you're saying, there's a 545 00:20:02,785 --> 00:20:05,265 certain limit. Right? Like, there's a certain under 546 00:20:05,424 --> 00:20:07,825 you know, there's a lived experience. And so 547 00:20:07,825 --> 00:20:10,005 the idea of building community, 548 00:20:10,465 --> 00:20:12,240 you know, it doesn't mean that every father 549 00:20:12,240 --> 00:20:14,900 is automatically going to be your deepest, truest 550 00:20:14,960 --> 00:20:15,460 friend. 551 00:20:15,920 --> 00:20:17,140 But having that 552 00:20:17,759 --> 00:20:18,740 level of 553 00:20:19,200 --> 00:20:22,480 safety and community to be able to dare 554 00:20:22,480 --> 00:20:24,315 lived experience, to be able to come in 555 00:20:24,315 --> 00:20:27,115 from that sort of adventure of fatherhood and 556 00:20:27,115 --> 00:20:29,115 go, oh my. Yeah. You you wanna hear 557 00:20:29,115 --> 00:20:31,914 what happened today? My gosh. Right? Like and 558 00:20:31,914 --> 00:20:32,414 and 559 00:20:33,115 --> 00:20:34,794 what I you know, some of the work 560 00:20:34,794 --> 00:20:36,875 that I do at Journeyman, our our sort 561 00:20:36,875 --> 00:20:39,650 of motto is, you know, your journey is 562 00:20:39,650 --> 00:20:41,589 our journey. Your work is our one. 563 00:20:42,130 --> 00:20:44,450 And that really speaks to this, you know, 564 00:20:44,450 --> 00:20:46,529 someone will come in and, let's say, spend 565 00:20:46,529 --> 00:20:47,750 an entire hour 566 00:20:48,049 --> 00:20:49,730 sharing what's going on for them and then 567 00:20:49,730 --> 00:20:51,250 go, oh, I'm so sorry. I just took 568 00:20:51,250 --> 00:20:53,345 the whole hour. And, you know, the response 569 00:20:53,345 --> 00:20:54,704 that I don't even have to say anymore, 570 00:20:54,704 --> 00:20:56,544 but from another man is saying, did you 571 00:20:56,544 --> 00:20:59,105 notice that everybody's head was bobbing the whole 572 00:20:59,105 --> 00:21:01,024 time? Did you notice that just by you 573 00:21:01,024 --> 00:21:02,804 sharing your story, we're all growing? 574 00:21:03,585 --> 00:21:04,404 And so 575 00:21:04,784 --> 00:21:07,424 the idea of being able to do that 576 00:21:07,424 --> 00:21:11,230 in a place that feels okay is affirming 577 00:21:11,369 --> 00:21:12,589 of, you know, 578 00:21:13,609 --> 00:21:15,930 this is a fatherhood space, and it's it's 579 00:21:15,930 --> 00:21:17,849 okay. And and and we can talk about, 580 00:21:17,849 --> 00:21:18,349 like, 581 00:21:18,730 --> 00:21:19,710 all of the ridiculous 582 00:21:20,009 --> 00:21:21,494 stuff that happens, you know, 583 00:21:22,454 --> 00:21:24,214 share some dad jokes and all of these 584 00:21:24,214 --> 00:21:26,075 things. But I I think that is 585 00:21:26,615 --> 00:21:29,734 incredibly important, whether it's at work, whether it's 586 00:21:29,734 --> 00:21:32,234 outside of work or in your community or 587 00:21:32,375 --> 00:21:33,515 through a men's group. 588 00:21:34,679 --> 00:21:35,179 Mhmm. 589 00:21:35,559 --> 00:21:37,159 Yeah. And I and I guess maybe off 590 00:21:37,159 --> 00:21:39,400 the top of your head, you know, is 591 00:21:39,480 --> 00:21:41,319 for leaders, is it is it about creating 592 00:21:41,319 --> 00:21:43,159 those spaces, like, at the workplace? Like, Greg 593 00:21:43,159 --> 00:21:45,159 and I just came about it naturally because 594 00:21:45,159 --> 00:21:46,839 we're we've been friends for a while, but 595 00:21:46,839 --> 00:21:49,085 it I mean, we rarely text outside of 596 00:21:49,085 --> 00:21:50,544 work because if I text Greg, 597 00:21:51,164 --> 00:21:54,125 it's maybe a video didn't upload or Wendy 598 00:21:54,284 --> 00:21:55,565 you know what I mean? So I'm careful 599 00:21:55,565 --> 00:21:57,724 about that. But, you know, for Greg, it 600 00:21:57,724 --> 00:21:59,700 it came across naturally, but there's been such 601 00:21:59,700 --> 00:22:01,539 a level of empathy that we have for 602 00:22:01,539 --> 00:22:02,200 one another, 603 00:22:02,819 --> 00:22:04,759 at at this time in our lives that 604 00:22:04,980 --> 00:22:06,519 it's not that, like, you're excusing 605 00:22:06,819 --> 00:22:08,819 maybe something got in an hour later, but 606 00:22:08,819 --> 00:22:10,899 there's just there's the benefit of the doubt 607 00:22:10,899 --> 00:22:12,500 is there. Right? And I think that's so 608 00:22:12,500 --> 00:22:13,000 important 609 00:22:13,454 --> 00:22:15,394 in the workplace of just trusting 610 00:22:15,934 --> 00:22:18,174 that the people are people are there to 611 00:22:18,174 --> 00:22:20,414 to work and to to enjoy themselves, but 612 00:22:20,414 --> 00:22:22,095 it does take that kind of, I don't 613 00:22:22,095 --> 00:22:24,734 know, like, removing of of this wall we 614 00:22:24,734 --> 00:22:26,335 put up when we come into work and 615 00:22:26,335 --> 00:22:28,355 we're not ourselves anymore. So I guess 616 00:22:28,859 --> 00:22:31,119 what's the leader's role in, like, helping create 617 00:22:31,259 --> 00:22:33,180 that environment? I you know, there there's a 618 00:22:33,180 --> 00:22:35,500 couple of different pieces, but the first thing 619 00:22:35,500 --> 00:22:37,339 that you know, when I've talked with leaders 620 00:22:37,339 --> 00:22:40,059 and really sort of challenged them is to 621 00:22:40,059 --> 00:22:41,920 name things name it explicitly. 622 00:22:42,625 --> 00:22:45,365 Right? Like, the there is so much that 623 00:22:45,424 --> 00:22:48,484 in sort of men's work, men's health, men's, 624 00:22:48,865 --> 00:22:51,904 you know, fatherhood roles, that doesn't get spoken. 625 00:22:51,904 --> 00:22:53,684 Or if it does, it gets 626 00:22:54,304 --> 00:22:54,804 explicitly 627 00:22:55,105 --> 00:22:55,769 shot down. 628 00:22:56,330 --> 00:22:56,830 Right? 629 00:22:59,849 --> 00:23:02,089 Because there's such a growth in the roles 630 00:23:02,089 --> 00:23:03,849 of men these days, which I think is 631 00:23:03,849 --> 00:23:04,910 absolutely important, 632 00:23:05,609 --> 00:23:07,945 there's also at the same time this you 633 00:23:07,945 --> 00:23:10,505 know, I I've heard numerous times when I 634 00:23:10,505 --> 00:23:11,884 say I work with men, 635 00:23:12,184 --> 00:23:14,105 I've heard people say, well, we have to 636 00:23:14,105 --> 00:23:15,945 support more women. We have to support more 637 00:23:15,945 --> 00:23:18,105 x, more y, more you know, they're every 638 00:23:18,105 --> 00:23:20,585 other group. And Mhmm. The idea that we 639 00:23:20,825 --> 00:23:23,005 that that supporting one group doesn't 640 00:23:23,700 --> 00:23:26,659 minimize support for another group is really important 641 00:23:26,659 --> 00:23:28,039 to understand. And and, 642 00:23:28,659 --> 00:23:31,059 you know, fathers and fatherhood and men in 643 00:23:31,059 --> 00:23:34,419 general, we we have, you know, incredibly the 644 00:23:34,419 --> 00:23:36,899 statistics are are heartbreaking. You know? The highest 645 00:23:36,899 --> 00:23:37,634 level of 646 00:23:38,035 --> 00:23:39,015 suicide, of 647 00:23:39,315 --> 00:23:41,515 of drug abuse, of irritation, of jail. Mhmm. 648 00:23:41,515 --> 00:23:44,295 You know? All of these things. And so 649 00:23:45,634 --> 00:23:48,595 men are hurting, and hurt men hurt others. 650 00:23:48,595 --> 00:23:50,934 So we're actually supporting all of society 651 00:23:51,519 --> 00:23:54,079 by supporting them. Right? So to answer that's 652 00:23:54,079 --> 00:23:55,920 a little bit of a side note, but 653 00:23:55,920 --> 00:23:57,299 to answer your question directly, 654 00:23:57,599 --> 00:23:58,980 leaders have a responsibility 655 00:23:59,279 --> 00:24:01,839 to name it. And then all the other 656 00:24:01,839 --> 00:24:03,460 things they can do come second. 657 00:24:03,815 --> 00:24:06,615 But if we don't name that these things 658 00:24:06,615 --> 00:24:07,115 exist, 659 00:24:08,855 --> 00:24:10,154 then especially as leaders, 660 00:24:10,694 --> 00:24:13,335 people who we almost by definition have some 661 00:24:13,335 --> 00:24:15,674 power over in terms of their job, 662 00:24:16,180 --> 00:24:17,720 it's much more challenging 663 00:24:18,019 --> 00:24:18,519 for 664 00:24:19,059 --> 00:24:19,559 individuals 665 00:24:20,259 --> 00:24:21,859 to sort of speak out and say, hey. 666 00:24:21,859 --> 00:24:23,779 I need this, or I want this, or 667 00:24:23,779 --> 00:24:24,519 I hurt. 668 00:24:25,539 --> 00:24:27,420 Right? So if we name it another thing 669 00:24:27,500 --> 00:24:29,299 start to build a community is important. Go 670 00:24:29,299 --> 00:24:30,680 ahead. I'm sorry. Yeah. Yeah. 671 00:24:31,164 --> 00:24:33,005 Yeah. No. I was gonna say another thing 672 00:24:33,005 --> 00:24:35,404 that I kinda have seen firsthand is, like, 673 00:24:35,404 --> 00:24:37,904 leaders need to live it too when applicable. 674 00:24:38,125 --> 00:24:40,144 Right? But, like Mhmm. But, 675 00:24:40,684 --> 00:24:43,345 you know, Kai and I see that firsthand 676 00:24:43,565 --> 00:24:46,600 from Wendy is is finding time for family. 677 00:24:47,059 --> 00:24:50,740 Yeah. Big time. Right? So while Wendy is 678 00:24:50,740 --> 00:24:53,460 a mother and now a grandmother, she is 679 00:24:53,460 --> 00:24:56,580 living, you know, integrating family into work, and 680 00:24:56,580 --> 00:24:59,535 we're I find that and using that when 681 00:24:59,535 --> 00:25:01,795 applicable into fatherhood as well. Yeah. 682 00:25:02,174 --> 00:25:04,095 Absolutely. If I just I won't I won't 683 00:25:04,255 --> 00:25:05,615 can I go ahead and say it real 684 00:25:05,615 --> 00:25:06,815 quick? Because I don't I don't wanna take 685 00:25:06,815 --> 00:25:08,654 us too far astray, but that living it 686 00:25:08,654 --> 00:25:09,955 piece is so important 687 00:25:10,654 --> 00:25:14,095 because it also adds to the changing story 688 00:25:14,095 --> 00:25:15,075 of men's roles. 689 00:25:15,509 --> 00:25:17,130 Because by living it 690 00:25:17,589 --> 00:25:19,269 I don't know if you meant this, but 691 00:25:19,269 --> 00:25:20,950 I hear it this way. By living it 692 00:25:20,950 --> 00:25:22,809 is a leader being vulnerable, 693 00:25:23,269 --> 00:25:25,910 a leader sharing Oh, yeah. Yeah. If they're 694 00:25:25,910 --> 00:25:26,570 a parent, 695 00:25:26,950 --> 00:25:28,549 my kid kept me up all night. I'm 696 00:25:28,549 --> 00:25:30,505 a little tired Can someone step up and 697 00:25:30,505 --> 00:25:33,224 take over for me today or whatever it 698 00:25:33,224 --> 00:25:35,724 would be appropriate? But the idea that leadership 699 00:25:35,945 --> 00:25:37,244 and especially leadership 700 00:25:37,785 --> 00:25:39,644 up till and including today 701 00:25:40,345 --> 00:25:43,164 Is based on a pretty male dominated 702 00:25:43,900 --> 00:25:45,359 you know, sort of patriarchal 703 00:25:45,900 --> 00:25:47,759 design. And if men 704 00:25:48,140 --> 00:25:50,539 choose to if we choose to grow and 705 00:25:50,539 --> 00:25:52,000 be more connected and related, 706 00:25:52,299 --> 00:25:54,539 we can do leadership differently. So that's a 707 00:25:54,539 --> 00:25:55,599 whole other conversation, 708 00:25:55,980 --> 00:25:58,240 but just the idea of living it is 709 00:25:58,299 --> 00:25:59,279 being vulnerable. 710 00:25:59,964 --> 00:26:01,024 That is strength. 711 00:26:01,404 --> 00:26:02,924 You know? That is Yeah. That is a 712 00:26:02,924 --> 00:26:05,105 real level of connection and partnership 713 00:26:05,804 --> 00:26:08,444 that I believe leaders need to display more 714 00:26:08,444 --> 00:26:10,764 and more. Absolutely. So so well said. So 715 00:26:10,764 --> 00:26:13,529 beautifully said. And I think that is a 716 00:26:13,529 --> 00:26:15,850 bright future that I want to kind of 717 00:26:15,850 --> 00:26:18,090 work towards. Right? And I guess maybe this 718 00:26:18,090 --> 00:26:21,070 is the segue speaking of working towards or 719 00:26:21,529 --> 00:26:22,029 traditional, 720 00:26:23,369 --> 00:26:23,869 masculinity. 721 00:26:24,250 --> 00:26:25,930 But, you know, before we get to this 722 00:26:25,930 --> 00:26:27,529 exercise that you're gonna lead, Greg and I 723 00:26:27,529 --> 00:26:29,345 Sue, which we're so excited about, I really 724 00:26:29,345 --> 00:26:31,345 wanted you to kinda tell tell the listeners 725 00:26:31,345 --> 00:26:32,964 about, the myth of the hero 726 00:26:33,265 --> 00:26:35,345 and the quiet journey of fatherhood that you 727 00:26:35,345 --> 00:26:37,424 that you is kinda sometimes is the backbone 728 00:26:37,424 --> 00:26:38,945 of of of kind of what you do. 729 00:26:38,945 --> 00:26:39,904 Can you talk to us a little bit 730 00:26:39,904 --> 00:26:40,644 about that? 731 00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:43,279 Absolutely. And and, you know, 732 00:26:43,720 --> 00:26:46,000 I'll I love the way you wrote the 733 00:26:46,000 --> 00:26:47,519 myth of the hero because I feel like 734 00:26:47,519 --> 00:26:50,160 that's really important because we do. We have 735 00:26:50,160 --> 00:26:50,660 this 736 00:26:51,039 --> 00:26:54,694 hero worship in our culture, and, you know, 737 00:26:55,075 --> 00:26:57,394 there's a lot of reasons where that came 738 00:26:57,394 --> 00:26:59,634 from and what that, you know, does and 739 00:26:59,634 --> 00:27:01,875 the impact it has. But for my in 740 00:27:01,875 --> 00:27:03,554 in my research and the work that I 741 00:27:03,554 --> 00:27:05,894 do, there's a narrative. There's a story 742 00:27:06,515 --> 00:27:08,865 that has been named the hero's journey. A 743 00:27:09,690 --> 00:27:11,609 lot of people that you know, listeners might 744 00:27:11,609 --> 00:27:13,289 know it, and if they don't, they still 745 00:27:13,289 --> 00:27:13,789 know. 746 00:27:14,169 --> 00:27:16,490 Right? The the narrative or the arc and 747 00:27:16,490 --> 00:27:18,329 the plot line of the hero's journey is 748 00:27:18,329 --> 00:27:20,809 something that is you know, it's Star Wars. 749 00:27:20,809 --> 00:27:23,049 It's every Pixar movie. It's Lord of the 750 00:27:23,049 --> 00:27:25,129 Rings. It's Harry Potter. Right? Thing I love. 751 00:27:25,307 --> 00:27:27,244 Here. Yeah. Me too. And I love it. 752 00:27:27,244 --> 00:27:29,325 I wrote my dissertation on it. You know? 753 00:27:29,325 --> 00:27:31,085 And and the first fifteen years of my 754 00:27:31,085 --> 00:27:31,585 career, 755 00:27:31,884 --> 00:27:35,644 I designed entire interventions and strategies and, you 756 00:27:35,644 --> 00:27:38,400 know, worked with families. You know, the questions 757 00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:40,720 that I ask individuals in therapy were based 758 00:27:40,720 --> 00:27:42,559 on the hero's journey. Like, it I love 759 00:27:42,559 --> 00:27:43,059 it. 760 00:27:44,080 --> 00:27:45,759 Yeah. And I just wanna pause just to 761 00:27:45,759 --> 00:27:47,200 give a little bit of context to the 762 00:27:47,200 --> 00:27:51,394 hero's journey is Done. It's it's so intrinsic 763 00:27:51,535 --> 00:27:52,275 in storytelling, 764 00:27:53,055 --> 00:27:55,615 and it's something that is ingrained in, like 765 00:27:55,615 --> 00:27:57,055 you said, a lot of movies. So it's 766 00:27:57,055 --> 00:27:59,455 something that we're very familiar with. It tells 767 00:27:59,455 --> 00:28:01,875 a little bit about, like, the underdog. Right? 768 00:28:02,095 --> 00:28:03,315 And it's about, like, 769 00:28:03,615 --> 00:28:04,434 these epic 770 00:28:05,119 --> 00:28:08,000 quests, right, that the this underdog is partaking 771 00:28:08,000 --> 00:28:09,600 in. Just to give some of the listeners 772 00:28:09,600 --> 00:28:10,880 who were like, what are they talking about? 773 00:28:10,880 --> 00:28:12,240 You get a little bit little bit of 774 00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:14,240 context as to that hero's journey, I think, 775 00:28:14,240 --> 00:28:16,340 is important. So go on. Yeah. 776 00:28:16,974 --> 00:28:19,134 Absolutely. No. And that's really important because it 777 00:28:19,134 --> 00:28:20,914 is. Even if we don't know the term, 778 00:28:21,214 --> 00:28:23,615 everyone recognizes it. In fact, as I was 779 00:28:23,615 --> 00:28:25,615 developing Journeyman, I would do I was doing 780 00:28:25,615 --> 00:28:27,534 workshops. I was seeing clients. I was doing 781 00:28:27,534 --> 00:28:30,014 some speaking. And I almost always start with 782 00:28:30,014 --> 00:28:30,674 a question. 783 00:28:31,490 --> 00:28:34,289 What's your favorite adventure story, real or fictional, 784 00:28:34,289 --> 00:28:34,950 right now? 785 00:28:35,570 --> 00:28:38,450 And after asking thousands of people that, I 786 00:28:38,450 --> 00:28:39,509 always got 787 00:28:39,970 --> 00:28:41,670 some version of the hero's journey. 788 00:28:42,769 --> 00:28:43,244 Right? 789 00:28:43,644 --> 00:28:45,085 People would say Star Wars, or they would 790 00:28:45,085 --> 00:28:46,444 say, That time I got lost on the 791 00:28:46,444 --> 00:28:46,944 mountain, 792 00:28:47,404 --> 00:28:47,904 or 793 00:28:48,365 --> 00:28:50,545 one version or another, which 794 00:28:51,164 --> 00:28:53,404 in my younger days in my career, I 795 00:28:53,404 --> 00:28:54,765 would pat myself in the back and say, 796 00:28:54,765 --> 00:28:56,684 Good. I'm right. This story is important. Let's 797 00:28:56,684 --> 00:28:58,900 use it. And that's where our culture has 798 00:28:58,900 --> 00:29:01,400 gone. Right? It is used I mean, again, 799 00:29:01,620 --> 00:29:04,100 I have worked with someone who writes for 800 00:29:04,100 --> 00:29:04,600 Pixel, 801 00:29:05,220 --> 00:29:07,700 and they have an outline of the hero's 802 00:29:07,700 --> 00:29:08,200 journey 803 00:29:08,660 --> 00:29:11,299 that they use to make every single film. 804 00:29:11,299 --> 00:29:14,505 Right? And so it is ubiquitous. It is 805 00:29:14,505 --> 00:29:15,005 everywhere. 806 00:29:15,544 --> 00:29:16,524 And stories 807 00:29:16,825 --> 00:29:21,005 develop and support and guide our realities. 808 00:29:21,704 --> 00:29:23,065 And so if you think it's about a 809 00:29:23,065 --> 00:29:24,684 story that is so dominant, 810 00:29:25,539 --> 00:29:28,839 it actually pushes away potential for other stories, 811 00:29:29,380 --> 00:29:32,099 right? And so like I mentioned earlier about 812 00:29:32,099 --> 00:29:34,279 naming things and the leader what leaders' 813 00:29:34,660 --> 00:29:37,299 responsibility is because we don't even notice the 814 00:29:37,299 --> 00:29:39,720 roles of men, we have to name, like, 815 00:29:39,894 --> 00:29:41,194 oh, my favorite story 816 00:29:41,575 --> 00:29:43,734 is a dominant one that might be oppressive 817 00:29:43,734 --> 00:29:45,515 to other possibilities and potentialities, 818 00:29:45,894 --> 00:29:47,355 but let me think about that. 819 00:29:47,654 --> 00:29:50,474 And with that, Journeyman was born because the 820 00:29:51,494 --> 00:29:52,154 sort of 821 00:29:53,299 --> 00:29:55,960 insight and research came to, for me, 822 00:29:56,339 --> 00:29:58,019 is to a point where I really see 823 00:29:58,019 --> 00:30:00,759 now that the hero's journey being the backbone 824 00:30:00,900 --> 00:30:02,679 of of our modern day myth 825 00:30:03,220 --> 00:30:05,220 is actually quite damaging to men and to 826 00:30:05,220 --> 00:30:05,720 boys, 827 00:30:06,420 --> 00:30:08,914 right? Because if we're not epic, if we're 828 00:30:08,914 --> 00:30:12,035 not legendary, what are we? And if we 829 00:30:12,035 --> 00:30:14,515 really look at these characters, yes, there's an 830 00:30:14,515 --> 00:30:17,494 underdog, but the underdog often is then elevated, 831 00:30:18,755 --> 00:30:21,075 right, and elevated to become a hero or 832 00:30:21,075 --> 00:30:23,230 a prince or a king, who then gets 833 00:30:23,230 --> 00:30:25,869 to write history and tell everybody what's good 834 00:30:25,869 --> 00:30:28,269 and bad right or wrong evil and and 835 00:30:28,269 --> 00:30:30,910 Whatever and what about all what about all 836 00:30:30,910 --> 00:30:32,669 the the peasants? What about all the people 837 00:30:32,669 --> 00:30:34,589 who stayed and didn't go on a grand 838 00:30:34,589 --> 00:30:35,089 adventure? 839 00:30:35,664 --> 00:30:37,125 Right, they're heroes 840 00:30:37,585 --> 00:30:39,825 They're the people who are keeping hearts burning. 841 00:30:39,825 --> 00:30:41,744 They keep people who are wiping butts doing 842 00:30:41,744 --> 00:30:43,445 dishes and chopping wood 843 00:30:44,224 --> 00:30:46,144 They have they think there's some magic and 844 00:30:46,144 --> 00:30:48,144 adventure in their lives as well and the 845 00:30:48,144 --> 00:30:51,000 hero's journey at its core, speaks to some 846 00:30:51,000 --> 00:30:53,340 of that, but it's only half the story. 847 00:30:53,799 --> 00:30:56,360 Right? It doesn't Mhmm. Really support this level 848 00:30:56,360 --> 00:30:59,799 of understanding meaning making and values and, you 849 00:30:59,799 --> 00:31:02,279 know, this idea of you know, I often 850 00:31:02,279 --> 00:31:04,494 say the magic is in the mop. It's 851 00:31:04,494 --> 00:31:05,855 not just about getting to the top of 852 00:31:05,855 --> 00:31:08,174 the mountain. It's along the way, and that's 853 00:31:08,174 --> 00:31:09,954 where we find our treasures. And, 854 00:31:11,214 --> 00:31:11,954 and so 855 00:31:12,414 --> 00:31:14,335 for me, I I started looking back and, 856 00:31:14,335 --> 00:31:15,775 you know, you joke that it's those are 857 00:31:15,775 --> 00:31:17,634 the stories we all love, which is true. 858 00:31:17,730 --> 00:31:19,169 And then I looked back, and I said, 859 00:31:19,169 --> 00:31:21,089 my favorite scenes in all of the books 860 00:31:21,089 --> 00:31:21,829 and movies 861 00:31:22,369 --> 00:31:24,710 weren't for me, it wasn't the the swashbuckling, 862 00:31:25,089 --> 00:31:27,269 the dragon fighting, the the swordplay. 863 00:31:28,049 --> 00:31:30,105 It was the gathering. Even as a kid, 864 00:31:30,265 --> 00:31:31,565 you know, I I loved 865 00:31:31,865 --> 00:31:33,804 when the scene where in 866 00:31:34,105 --> 00:31:36,345 in in The Hobbit where they meet Slider 867 00:31:36,345 --> 00:31:38,744 at the at the tavern or the cantina 868 00:31:38,744 --> 00:31:41,065 scene in Star Wars or, you know, any 869 00:31:41,065 --> 00:31:43,024 number of things. Those were always my favorite. 870 00:31:43,065 --> 00:31:44,775 In pints? Exact yes. 871 00:31:46,169 --> 00:31:48,509 And why do people go to these places? 872 00:31:49,210 --> 00:31:50,909 Let's take alcohol out of the story. 873 00:31:51,210 --> 00:31:53,309 Why do we go? We go to CNBC. 874 00:31:53,690 --> 00:31:54,990 We go to share stories. 875 00:31:55,369 --> 00:31:56,029 We go to 876 00:31:57,049 --> 00:31:57,549 develop 877 00:31:58,484 --> 00:32:01,125 new skills and relationships we go to get, 878 00:32:01,125 --> 00:32:02,964 you know information from the shady guy in 879 00:32:02,964 --> 00:32:04,644 the corner You know, we go to get 880 00:32:04,644 --> 00:32:07,204 rested and nourished all of these things. And 881 00:32:07,204 --> 00:32:08,265 so for me 882 00:32:09,125 --> 00:32:10,505 I started developing 883 00:32:11,045 --> 00:32:13,525 Sort of what I originally called adventure's other 884 00:32:13,525 --> 00:32:15,480 half It was the other half of the 885 00:32:15,480 --> 00:32:18,600 hero's journey story and created an entire narrative 886 00:32:18,600 --> 00:32:20,299 and plot line and model 887 00:32:20,759 --> 00:32:23,980 that really helps men to support that element 888 00:32:24,119 --> 00:32:25,820 of their story writing. 889 00:32:26,444 --> 00:32:28,765 Right? And by doing that, we 890 00:32:29,565 --> 00:32:31,404 if we think about all of the greatest 891 00:32:31,404 --> 00:32:34,444 hero's journey of adventures, you know, Lord of 892 00:32:34,444 --> 00:32:35,664 the Rings, Star Wars, 893 00:32:36,284 --> 00:32:39,025 only when the hero is getting stomped on 894 00:32:39,140 --> 00:32:41,380 do we then get maybe a three minute 895 00:32:41,380 --> 00:32:43,779 montage of their backstory of why they're doing 896 00:32:43,779 --> 00:32:46,259 it, what they care about, what's important, you 897 00:32:46,259 --> 00:32:47,480 know, all of those things. 898 00:32:48,259 --> 00:32:50,519 And that three minutes is really important, 899 00:32:51,105 --> 00:32:53,505 But it's undeveloped and if we think about 900 00:32:53,505 --> 00:32:55,105 outside of the movie and you think about 901 00:32:55,105 --> 00:32:55,605 culture 902 00:32:56,224 --> 00:32:58,464 It's undeveloped there as well. We all want 903 00:32:58,464 --> 00:32:59,904 to be epic. We all want it, you 904 00:32:59,904 --> 00:33:00,724 know, whatever 905 00:33:01,744 --> 00:33:04,509 But what's the you know, chop wood, carry 906 00:33:04,509 --> 00:33:07,150 water moment? What's the why? What's the the 907 00:33:07,150 --> 00:33:09,869 element of what I do is magical and 908 00:33:09,869 --> 00:33:10,529 and adventurous 909 00:33:10,990 --> 00:33:12,529 even when I'm cleaning the bathroom? 910 00:33:13,309 --> 00:33:15,549 And and how can that be something that 911 00:33:15,549 --> 00:33:17,845 I can lean into? Because then when the 912 00:33:17,845 --> 00:33:18,345 opportunity 913 00:33:18,644 --> 00:33:20,984 arises to be epic, I'm ready. 914 00:33:21,605 --> 00:33:23,204 And I also don't need to. I don't 915 00:33:23,204 --> 00:33:24,505 get I don't need to. 916 00:33:24,884 --> 00:33:27,365 Go ahead. Yeah. Yeah. And I don't Kai, 917 00:33:27,365 --> 00:33:29,365 I bet you this kind of resonates with 918 00:33:29,365 --> 00:33:31,509 you similarly in that Kai and I are 919 00:33:31,509 --> 00:33:33,190 both musicians. Kai and I are in our 920 00:33:33,190 --> 00:33:35,049 twenties. We're really pounding the pavement 921 00:33:35,509 --> 00:33:38,069 being musicians, and things have changed for us. 922 00:33:38,069 --> 00:33:38,569 Right? 923 00:33:39,109 --> 00:33:40,470 And I don't know. Kai, if you've had 924 00:33:40,470 --> 00:33:42,549 this, but, like, I've kinda had this, like, 925 00:33:42,549 --> 00:33:43,690 re I've had to 926 00:33:44,105 --> 00:33:45,565 really reshift and reevaluate 927 00:33:46,184 --> 00:33:48,445 what being a musician looks like 928 00:33:49,305 --> 00:33:52,105 now that it's sharing the stage with fatherhood, 929 00:33:52,105 --> 00:33:53,325 pun intended there. 930 00:33:53,785 --> 00:33:55,545 Yeah. Do you know what I mean? Like, 931 00:33:55,545 --> 00:33:58,690 there's, like, there's these two identities that they 932 00:33:58,690 --> 00:34:01,250 can't just be separate. Right? Mhmm. So how 933 00:34:01,250 --> 00:34:04,289 to integrate them. And the musician part of 934 00:34:04,289 --> 00:34:05,910 me was definitely living 935 00:34:06,289 --> 00:34:09,250 the hero's journey when I was 22 and 936 00:34:09,250 --> 00:34:10,070 in a van. 937 00:34:10,554 --> 00:34:12,954 Right? And I was slaying the dragons, was 938 00:34:12,954 --> 00:34:14,715 getting on stage and playing all the different 939 00:34:14,715 --> 00:34:15,614 venues. Right? 940 00:34:16,235 --> 00:34:17,835 So now that I'm a father and I'm 941 00:34:17,835 --> 00:34:18,894 doing that less, 942 00:34:19,994 --> 00:34:22,715 right, like, is that could be damaging to 943 00:34:22,715 --> 00:34:25,195 someone. Right? Like, someone living this kind of 944 00:34:25,195 --> 00:34:28,539 epic life in early adulthood and going into 945 00:34:28,539 --> 00:34:30,320 fatherhood and having that kind of 946 00:34:30,699 --> 00:34:32,400 the rug pulled from their feet. 947 00:34:33,659 --> 00:34:35,440 So being able to find 948 00:34:35,980 --> 00:34:38,139 that time to still be a musician and 949 00:34:38,139 --> 00:34:39,519 still do those things, 950 00:34:40,235 --> 00:34:42,655 but integrating it into fatherhood and, 951 00:34:43,675 --> 00:34:45,355 acknowledging that, yeah, I'm gonna do this a 952 00:34:45,355 --> 00:34:47,434 little bit less. I'm gonna you know, I'm 953 00:34:47,434 --> 00:34:49,114 not gonna be traveling as much as I 954 00:34:49,114 --> 00:34:49,614 did. 955 00:34:50,875 --> 00:34:52,394 I don't know. Let me throw that over 956 00:34:52,394 --> 00:34:53,594 to you, Kyle. Like, does that resonate and 957 00:34:53,594 --> 00:34:55,679 does that resonate with maybe other listeners, right, 958 00:34:55,679 --> 00:34:58,319 like, in a different field? Yeah. Right? Absolutely. 959 00:34:58,319 --> 00:34:59,839 I I think for me, it's just, like, 960 00:34:59,839 --> 00:35:00,339 retaining 961 00:35:01,039 --> 00:35:03,119 retaining my sense of self because I don't 962 00:35:03,119 --> 00:35:04,500 I don't feel any different 963 00:35:04,880 --> 00:35:07,440 as a as a person. Like and I 964 00:35:07,519 --> 00:35:08,880 and that's so funny when I say that 965 00:35:08,880 --> 00:35:10,000 because I think a lot of parents are 966 00:35:10,000 --> 00:35:11,655 like, yeah. Yeah. Like, I still feel like 967 00:35:12,215 --> 00:35:13,894 that person I've always been is just like 968 00:35:13,894 --> 00:35:15,735 your priorities have shifted. And for me, it's 969 00:35:15,735 --> 00:35:16,775 just like, you know, at the end of 970 00:35:16,775 --> 00:35:17,355 the day, 971 00:35:17,735 --> 00:35:19,815 there's only so many hours. Was I able 972 00:35:19,815 --> 00:35:21,894 to find that hour or two for Yeah. 973 00:35:21,974 --> 00:35:23,735 Some music for myself is I think where 974 00:35:23,735 --> 00:35:25,414 I kinda feel it. And, you know, I 975 00:35:25,414 --> 00:35:28,280 think what's really interesting about this, the hero's 976 00:35:28,280 --> 00:35:30,920 journey is or the myth thereof is kind 977 00:35:30,920 --> 00:35:32,360 of like how you bring that back to 978 00:35:32,360 --> 00:35:34,039 the is it part of the group work 979 00:35:34,039 --> 00:35:35,640 that you do? Is that that's correct, Jason, 980 00:35:35,640 --> 00:35:37,480 with in terms of so it's like it's 981 00:35:37,480 --> 00:35:39,640 unpacking those moments in the hero's journey where 982 00:35:39,640 --> 00:35:41,555 they were instead of fighting, they were at 983 00:35:41,555 --> 00:35:43,735 the table having a pint and just 984 00:35:44,114 --> 00:35:46,035 talking talking about someone. So I I guess 985 00:35:46,035 --> 00:35:48,454 through through that work with the group mentality, 986 00:35:48,675 --> 00:35:49,735 what kind of things, 987 00:35:50,114 --> 00:35:52,114 like, kinda come to life, through, like, kind 988 00:35:52,114 --> 00:35:53,414 of the group group talks? 989 00:35:53,869 --> 00:35:55,550 Well, I I I I wanna go back 990 00:35:55,550 --> 00:35:56,910 to something you said before where you said, 991 00:35:56,910 --> 00:35:58,510 like, I don't feel any different as a 992 00:35:58,510 --> 00:36:01,010 person. It's just the priorities have shifted. Right? 993 00:36:01,550 --> 00:36:03,710 Yeah. There's a real you know, I would 994 00:36:03,710 --> 00:36:05,630 say there's a real truth to that as 995 00:36:05,630 --> 00:36:07,550 well as something that is a little bit 996 00:36:07,550 --> 00:36:08,684 heartbreaking for me 997 00:36:09,164 --> 00:36:09,664 Because 998 00:36:10,045 --> 00:36:12,285 Mhmm. When we take on the identity of 999 00:36:12,285 --> 00:36:12,785 fatherhood, 1000 00:36:13,244 --> 00:36:14,785 we are changed. And 1001 00:36:16,605 --> 00:36:18,765 we are lacking in so many ways in 1002 00:36:18,765 --> 00:36:19,425 our culture 1003 00:36:19,805 --> 00:36:22,785 different whether we call them rituals or shifts 1004 00:36:23,164 --> 00:36:23,824 or identity 1005 00:36:24,510 --> 00:36:25,010 changes, 1006 00:36:25,469 --> 00:36:26,449 rites of passage, 1007 00:36:26,829 --> 00:36:27,809 these kinds of things, 1008 00:36:28,110 --> 00:36:30,110 in so many ways, we're missing that, our 1009 00:36:30,110 --> 00:36:30,610 culture. 1010 00:36:31,789 --> 00:36:32,769 We have some token 1011 00:36:33,390 --> 00:36:35,730 events for kids when they're turning into 1012 00:36:36,190 --> 00:36:38,144 teenagers. We have 16, 1013 00:36:38,285 --> 00:36:39,164 the bar mitzvahs, or 1014 00:36:39,805 --> 00:36:40,925 but we don't have that party. Yeah, where 1015 00:36:40,925 --> 00:36:42,305 is my party? Exactly. 1016 00:36:43,805 --> 00:36:46,285 We have another we have baby showers maybe 1017 00:36:46,285 --> 00:36:47,025 for moms, 1018 00:36:47,485 --> 00:36:50,125 and there are things called blessing ways for 1019 00:36:50,125 --> 00:36:51,825 moms, and it's this idea of 1020 00:36:52,170 --> 00:36:54,429 gathering into this new identity. 1021 00:36:55,130 --> 00:36:57,609 Well, in other cultures, other times, men have 1022 00:36:57,609 --> 00:37:00,909 had that, right? It's a pretty massive developmental 1023 00:37:01,130 --> 00:37:02,269 shift to go from 1024 00:37:02,969 --> 00:37:03,469 boy, 1025 00:37:04,250 --> 00:37:06,934 an adolescent, to a young man who 1026 00:37:07,474 --> 00:37:08,775 I used to joke, I 1027 00:37:09,474 --> 00:37:11,655 was a dude, then I was a boyfriend, 1028 00:37:11,795 --> 00:37:13,715 then I was a husband, then I was 1029 00:37:13,715 --> 00:37:14,375 a father. 1030 00:37:15,394 --> 00:37:18,035 And my dude self sometimes wants to come 1031 00:37:18,035 --> 00:37:18,775 out more. 1032 00:37:19,230 --> 00:37:21,949 And and the resolution of my dude self 1033 00:37:21,949 --> 00:37:23,409 with my father self 1034 00:37:23,710 --> 00:37:25,710 is sometimes a real struggle. It leads to 1035 00:37:25,710 --> 00:37:27,550 me staying up too late sometimes. It leads 1036 00:37:27,550 --> 00:37:29,710 to me not always making the best choices. 1037 00:37:29,710 --> 00:37:32,224 It you know? And it takes away from 1038 00:37:32,224 --> 00:37:34,465 some of the connections that are in the 1039 00:37:34,465 --> 00:37:35,684 center of my values. 1040 00:37:36,625 --> 00:37:40,085 And so reconciling those stories is so fascinating, 1041 00:37:40,224 --> 00:37:42,305 so important. So, again, going back to your 1042 00:37:42,305 --> 00:37:44,244 question, in the group work we do, 1043 00:37:44,869 --> 00:37:47,190 men are able to start reconciling that. They 1044 00:37:47,190 --> 00:37:49,269 can be honest about it. They can, you 1045 00:37:49,269 --> 00:37:51,050 know, share, you know, like, 1046 00:37:51,429 --> 00:37:52,869 I went out with some buddies for the 1047 00:37:52,869 --> 00:37:54,390 weekend, and we went to a concert, and 1048 00:37:54,390 --> 00:37:56,070 we went camping. And, you know, it was 1049 00:37:56,070 --> 00:37:57,989 nice it was nice to be away, but 1050 00:37:57,989 --> 00:37:59,429 it was nice to come home. And how 1051 00:37:59,429 --> 00:38:01,105 do, you know, how do I bring 1052 00:38:01,644 --> 00:38:04,304 the the sort of treasures or or experiences 1053 00:38:04,684 --> 00:38:05,424 or insights 1054 00:38:05,724 --> 00:38:08,065 from maybe a a weekend with the boys 1055 00:38:08,444 --> 00:38:10,525 into my everyday life with my kids? I 1056 00:38:10,525 --> 00:38:12,924 mean, that's it's a big change. That's a 1057 00:38:12,924 --> 00:38:13,424 shift. 1058 00:38:13,809 --> 00:38:14,309 Mhmm. 1059 00:38:15,730 --> 00:38:17,429 Yeah. Yeah. Then now it's resonating 1060 00:38:17,809 --> 00:38:20,069 so hard. I think what I'm hearing is 1061 00:38:20,369 --> 00:38:22,690 maybe I haven't accepted that I've changed or 1062 00:38:22,690 --> 00:38:24,529 maybe I haven't you know what I mean? 1063 00:38:24,529 --> 00:38:25,029 Like, 1064 00:38:25,489 --> 00:38:27,824 the idea of my prioritizing shift is maybe 1065 00:38:27,824 --> 00:38:29,985 more my how I literally think about things, 1066 00:38:29,985 --> 00:38:33,025 but, like, chemically, I'm sure there's something happening 1067 00:38:33,025 --> 00:38:34,864 in my brain. I've literally changed. When I 1068 00:38:34,864 --> 00:38:36,005 look at Miles sometimes, 1069 00:38:36,704 --> 00:38:37,684 like, you just 1070 00:38:38,224 --> 00:38:41,110 fill with with joy and when he hits 1071 00:38:41,110 --> 00:38:42,550 you with a when he hits you with 1072 00:38:42,550 --> 00:38:43,449 a hitting hand 1073 00:38:44,230 --> 00:38:46,230 and you have to remind him that this 1074 00:38:46,230 --> 00:38:46,890 is a 1075 00:38:47,269 --> 00:38:49,750 gentle hand, I'm surged with a little bit 1076 00:38:49,750 --> 00:38:52,170 of anger that I have to tamper down 1077 00:38:52,625 --> 00:38:54,625 and have to practice patience. Right? So there's 1078 00:38:54,704 --> 00:38:56,065 I guess there is a lot of change 1079 00:38:56,065 --> 00:38:57,744 happening, which I don't know. Maybe this is 1080 00:38:57,744 --> 00:38:59,664 a is this a good segue into maybe 1081 00:38:59,664 --> 00:39:01,344 the the activity you wanted to take us 1082 00:39:01,344 --> 00:39:01,844 through? 1083 00:39:02,625 --> 00:39:03,924 That sounds perfect. 1084 00:39:09,900 --> 00:39:11,659 Thanks for listening to this is your job 1085 00:39:11,659 --> 00:39:14,300 now, produced by me, Kai. If this episode 1086 00:39:14,300 --> 00:39:15,980 made you think or made you feel, we 1087 00:39:15,980 --> 00:39:17,820 hope it also made you realize you don't 1088 00:39:17,820 --> 00:39:19,514 have to figure this out all alone. Leadership 1089 00:39:19,674 --> 00:39:21,994 today is about presence, not perfection. To learn 1090 00:39:21,994 --> 00:39:24,315 more, follow Wendy Wollner on LinkedIn, subscribe to 1091 00:39:24,315 --> 00:39:26,635 Balancing Life's Issues on YouTube, or stream the 1092 00:39:26,635 --> 00:39:28,795 podcast wherever you listen. Because if you're leading 1093 00:39:28,795 --> 00:39:31,275 people, this is your job now. Anything else 1094 00:39:31,275 --> 00:39:32,014 to add, Miles?