But just carrying forward what's happening. Comfortable are
you talking about this? How comfortable are Dan
and Matt talking to somebody, a leader, about
their fertility issues?
Welcome to This Is Your Job Now. I'm
Kai Sorensen, director of podcast at Balancing Life's
Issues.
Today's episode is one that honestly made me
squirm, and I think that's exactly the point.
Wendy brings on two longtime friends and respected
professionals, Dan Bolger and Matthew Wyler, for a
raw, real look at leadership, conflict, and what
happens when people bring their whole selves to
work, baggage and all.
Now if you're like me, conflict doesn't always
feel comfortable, but what you're about to hear
is a masterclass and why leaders can't afford
to avoid it. You'll hear Wendy peel back
layers gently but firmly until she and her
guests uncover what's really going on beneath the
surface.
It's about what happens when someone shows up
cranky, disengaged, or checked out, and why just
do your job is never the the full
answer. Whether the problem is a hidden medical
issue, a fertility struggle, or something at home
that's bleeding into the workplace,
great leaders don't shy away. They get curious.
They pull aside people. They ask the right
questions.
This conversation is candid, a little uncomfortable, and
exactly the kind of dialogue we need more
of in every workplace. It's about practicing compassion,
curiosity, and accountability
all at once. So if you're a leader
who wants to learn how to navigate the
tough stuff, to really see your people, and
never let a good crisis pass you by,
this episode is for you.
Enjoy.
So I am here with two amazing people.
So first, let me just say the obligatory
thank you. Dan, I'm gonna give you four
seconds to go ahead and introduce yourselves to
our audience today. Go for it.
My name is Dan Bolger, and I am
a former foreign policy
and development expert,
and I now live in the New York
area and delighted to be a part of
this podcast. Thank you so much for inviting
me, Wendy. And a good buddy is Matt
Wyler, who full disclosure I grew up with,
known him for forever.
Little bit of royalty in our home, so
I'm always humbled when the Wylers are in
the room. So, Matt, go ahead and introduce
yourself.
Well, my name is Matt Wyler. I am,
as Wendy said, originally from Hartsdale, New York,
Woodlands class of '79.
And,
I am a, recently well, retired last year
after thirty five years in the Department of
State. Still working occasionally
as a retiree for the Department of State.
Little disclaimer,
the views I express here are my own,
not those of the Department of State.
And that's how we want it. So welcome
to This Is Your Job Now. So Dan
and Matt, I'm gonna let you fight over
this first point of view. So in my
thirty years, the role of leadership has changed
dramatically.
And I'm still getting a lot of, it's
not my job, that's HR's.
I don't wanna get involved. I just wanna
do my job. I just want the organization
to be productive.
So how are you feeling about leadership today?
Quick answer. Who wants to dive in?
Dan?
I I feel you know, thank you. I
feel like
the there are some unsung heroes with any
any organization
and department.
Nice nice to you, Paul. I like the
optimism we're ringing in right now. I like
the optimism.
Right. No. Absolutely. But HR, IT,
security, and even comms oftentimes get short shrift.
And by simply delegating tasks to them
doesn't guarantee or doesn't ensure that the message
has been sent clearly or that they're gonna
be able to fulfill
what has been asked. You there's gotta be
a measure
of mentoring, coaching,
cajoling,
and embrace to, I think, really make it
make it. And I think so so that's
that's something that that is is there's a
gap in the current Okay. So, Matt, what
do you think?
Are you as optimistic as your buddy over
here? Dan's feeling good about the world.
I well, I believe good leadership is fair,
consistent,
kind.
Not pushovery
kind, but
fair, honest, and,
and engaged kind and willing to make tough
decisions. And I think
those people are still out there, and the
good ones continue to do those things.
Okay. So let me ask you a tough
question. This is a quiz. Are you ready
for the quiz?
Okay.
All the stories that we share on this
is your job now are real. Obviously, we
just protect as Matt said, we protect people.
This is a top leader in an organization
that's been very cranky.
She's a cranky leader, and her team says
she's super smart, but super cranky.
Super cranky. The team is very upset about
this. Tell me some of the reasons that
she might be cranky.
Can I just say, you know, one of
my my,
newest lines is don't hire for IQ, hire
for EQ?
Okay. That sounds sounds like sounds like she's
an IQ hire as opposed to Okay. Or
an IQ leader as opposed to an EQ
leader. That. We're done. 100% right. But she's
there. So we can't fix that. Right? This
is a leader who's there. So whether it's
a good hire or not hire, this is
a leader who is there, and her boss
is saying,
I don't care that you're cranky. Get it
together and be a better leader.
What has changed? Tell me what you think
might be going on. Give a guess, dad.
What do you think she's cranky about?
The person may have some semblance of emotional
intelligence. Right? The EQ.
But on that particular time in that moment,
they may be going through something personal. Right?
Like what? Like what? Could be family issues.
Could be First what?
Could be,
kids. A problem with kids. Okay. So talk
to me. What are the questions that you
think a leader,
and I'm gonna be judgy here, should ask
to find out what's going on?
Well, the question should be open and sort
of open probes. Like, you know, hey hey
hey, miss so and so. You know? Do
you have some time to to share? Is
there is there anything we should know about?
Be calm. I'm good. I'm good, dad. I'm
all good. I'm all set. I'm all good.
Don't worry about me. But but by the
same token, you know, hear me out. Hear
me out. Hear me out, ma'am, miss,
director,
supervisor, ambassador. Got it. Fill in the blank.
There's been,
there's been
some concern on the part of the office
politic
that, you know, something may be afoot. If
there's anything that we need to know, please
feel free to reach out. I'm here. Again,
take your time. We wanna we wanna be
successful.
Again, the thing about this podcast is we're
gonna fantasize for a minute that we're gonna
go with what Matt said. A kind leader
a kind leader
may also think through how they can make
it the safest possible way for this person
to actually tell
their boss, the leader's leader,
what could be happening.
So what other quest what let's just
brainstorm. Matt, what could also be going on
with this woman? And by the way, this
is a numbers one, two, or three issue
in corporate America today.
I mean, I was looking at there's carrot
and stick issues here. I mean, the carrot
is obviously when I the the things that
Dan was asking. But the stick things are
like I I mean, are you
and hard to kind of phrase this this
way, but are are you getting along with
your staff? Are you feeling threatened by anybody?
And I don't mean threatened in the in
the danger way. About it. So you're saying
it's not a work related issue. I'll tell
you that it's almost never what we've learned
in thirty years of studying,
about 88% of the time, it's not a
work related issue. These leaders, because this is
a podcast about leadership, they get to do
their jobs. That's not their problem. It's not
a job. It's not a job related issue.
So I think Dan was closer. Sorry, Matt.
I gotta throw it back to Dan. He
might win on this one. Okay. It's almost
always a non work related issue, but I
wanna make it really safe. What's the questions
that you're thinking it could be? Let's just
blunt it out. What could it be? Promotion
or lack of lack of Not a job
related. Don't go see.
I just finished telling you not a job
related. Now I gotta go back to Matt.
You lost that round. I'm a contender still.
I'm a contender.
You're a contender. Yeah. I love it. Could
be also medical.
You know, people Okay. People,
you know, people like to play through pain,
particularly high powered people.
And, you know, sometimes they don't I think
men in particular I mean, you we're talking
in this case about a woman, but I
think men in particular
will ignore pain
and yet that pain I can think of
a senior official career
that is that I know of who's known
as a screamer, and
I we he has some physical issues. And
and, you know, I am of the belief
that that is a lot of what is
causing his issues. Could be. So so if
you were and and for sake of time,
because we wanna we wanna keep everybody engaged.
Right? Ask me the questions that you need
to know. You're a kind, compassionate
leader in today's world.
You know you have a problem on hand.
You know it's not work related.
So it may be medical.
So what is the question that you are
gonna be courageous enough to ask Wendy?
Do do you need time
to to address
whatever issues might be occurring? I mean, how
can we backstop you
to to support whatever time away from the
office or or away from projects that you
might need?
Okay. So, Kate, let me add. Can I
ask you a personal question? Me? Yes.
Yep. I don't know you as well as
Matt. So Matt's easier for me to play
around with, but getting to know you a
little bit better on this call. So has
it ever happened where you've had to suck
it up and go to work?
Oh, wait. Something at home with your family?
Oh, absolutely.
Yeah. Yes. What's the question on those days
that you wish someone had asked you?
On the hardest day, when you were really
sucking it up and going to work, what
is the question you wish a leader had
asked you? Well, first, how are you?
How is everything?
How's your family?
I'm fine.
I mean and I would say that if
if there were you know, if, you know,
I had to suck it up for a,
you know, a big presentation or a big
client meeting, and I just really was not
able. But
an aside
a sidebar.
I think I think in terms of leadership,
check ins, sidebars, being able to pull someone
aside and say Okay. I love that. I
love that. I think that's a really important
takeaway for for listeners.
I think the idea of sidebars are super
chef's kiss, Dan. Total great takeaway. I gotta
pull you aside. No. That's a real tangible
tip. Right? I gotta pull you away. Matt?
You need to get that person talking.
I mean, whatever you need to do, you
don't need to tell them much. You just
need them talking. Once you get them talking,
very often, all people need to do is
vent. I've got this thing with my kid.
He's not going to school.
And and and then, usually, what happens in
those situations is that employee will thank you
afterwards, and they'll walk out of there, if
not completely
better off, but happier and kind of feeling
like somehow they've been unburdened partially at least.
Beautiful answer. Both of you hit the nail
on the head. You gotta take the person,
you gotta sidebar them, and you gotta get
them talking. And in this situation,
this is a woman who is later not
not, in her face and, having major fertility
issues, which is a very big issue today
in corporate America that we don't always talk
about. In government, in hospitals,
women waited careers.
You know, the span changed, and they got
to a place where they said, now I
wanna have a child and fertility issues. And
you as a leader might say, hey. That's
not my job. I don't wanna deal with
that.
That that's yucky.
And I purposely picked that topic for two
men because I think maybe there's some gender
there that men might say, So in this
situation, this woman is on massive fertility drugs
to Matt's point. Yeah. So there's some medical.
But to your point,
she does it affect her job, and will
it continue to affect her job for a
very long period of time? What do you
think the answer is? Matt's not a plan
with them, but just carrying forward what's happening.
Comfortable are you talking about this? How comfortable
are Dan and Matt talking to somebody, a
leader, about their fertility issues?
Yeah. This is thus the, the rub here
because I can tell you in the public
sector,
you know, maybe it's changing somewhat since January,
but those are very
can be very dangerous conversations to have. And,
And that is why we created this podcast
now. Yeah. Because we are going back to
suppression,
and we're going back to closet, and we're
going back to I'm too scared to have
this conversation, Wendy. It's not my job anymore.
Well, interestingly, Wendy, I I would disagree slightly.
I think in in
one of the, you know, never let a
good crisis pass you by, and I think
granted things have changed considerably in the government
elsewhere recently, but people are still in the
government
approaching these things in the way they would
have six, eight months ago, and they haven't
I love it. Thought about maybe that that
there is an opening now
to speak more freely about things that might
have gotten them into EEO related trouble, to
to be frank.
Right. Good. I I think that's great. I
I love to hear. So alright. As we
begin to get to the end and you
have a sense of our messaging. Right? What
is our job today different in really one
sense or less, Dan? How would you sum
it up? You're an expert.
You've been in the world of truly difficult
situations for umpteen years. So your biggest
takeaway for leaders today is what? Absolutely lead
with empathy,
But doing so
in a way
that's clear to those who work with you,
around you, for you,
you know, what that really
what that really means, how it plays out.
You know, people aren't naturally born with these
the the capacity to Mhmm. Understand, to catch.
You have to practice it.
You have to you have to skill. Do
you have a leader that you admire and
that would be a public one that we
could go to look at? Like, do you
have a what would someone to so and
so do? Pretty much everybody knows. Mine is
Michelle Obama,
but, you know, but but who would be
yours, Dan? I wanna answer that question too
when you get a chance. Why don't you
go mad? I don't want you go mad
for why don't you go ahead? Go ahead,
Matt. Anthony Fauci.
Man is a is a
hero. An absolute hero. Okay.
Just Wow. His constant, consistent,
professional and measured approach, the way I've I've
read his autobiography
and I love it. Read lots of things
about him. And he is consistent and fair
and
brilliant,
but doesn't necessarily flaunt his brilliance,
which in a place like Washington can happen.
So he would be my ideal
great leader.
I think my mother would agree with you.
So thank you for that one. Yeah. Okay.
Dan. I'd say Stanley McChrystal, general McChrystal,
because he's brilliant,
courageous, incredibly disciplined,
but, a member of my family actually got
to work with him directly and helped him
prepare for TED Talk.
He's currently, I believe, still at Yale doing
international strategy and competitive strategy that he's parlayed
to the the corporate sector from his experience
in the military. I wanted to I wanna
thank you so much for
being all over the world, chiming in,
sharing decades of experience,
with us and our listeners today. We never
get a chance to talk to people like
Dan and Matt.
So I really wanna take a moment and
thank you so much for being on. This
is your job now. We're highlighting you. We're
really grateful for your time here today. So
thank you, Dan, and thank you, Matt. Our
pleasure. Absolutely. Thank you.
Thanks for listening to this is your job
now, produced by me, Kai. If this episode
made you think or made you feel, we
hope it also made you realize. You don't
have to figure this out all alone. Leadership
today is about presence, not perfection. To learn
more, follow Wendy Wohner on LinkedIn, subscribe to
Balancing Life's Issues on YouTube, or stream the
podcast wherever you listen. Because if you're leading
people, this is your job now. Anything else
to add, Miles?