1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:02,879 But just carrying forward what's happening. Comfortable are 2 00:00:02,879 --> 00:00:05,759 you talking about this? How comfortable are Dan 3 00:00:05,759 --> 00:00:08,559 and Matt talking to somebody, a leader, about 4 00:00:08,559 --> 00:00:09,859 their fertility issues? 5 00:00:13,119 --> 00:00:15,144 Welcome to This Is Your Job Now. I'm 6 00:00:15,144 --> 00:00:17,464 Kai Sorensen, director of podcast at Balancing Life's 7 00:00:17,464 --> 00:00:17,964 Issues. 8 00:00:18,585 --> 00:00:20,664 Today's episode is one that honestly made me 9 00:00:20,664 --> 00:00:22,844 squirm, and I think that's exactly the point. 10 00:00:23,224 --> 00:00:25,864 Wendy brings on two longtime friends and respected 11 00:00:25,864 --> 00:00:28,585 professionals, Dan Bolger and Matthew Wyler, for a 12 00:00:28,585 --> 00:00:31,050 raw, real look at leadership, conflict, and what 13 00:00:31,050 --> 00:00:33,130 happens when people bring their whole selves to 14 00:00:33,130 --> 00:00:34,750 work, baggage and all. 15 00:00:35,130 --> 00:00:37,369 Now if you're like me, conflict doesn't always 16 00:00:37,369 --> 00:00:39,369 feel comfortable, but what you're about to hear 17 00:00:39,369 --> 00:00:41,530 is a masterclass and why leaders can't afford 18 00:00:41,530 --> 00:00:43,895 to avoid it. You'll hear Wendy peel back 19 00:00:43,895 --> 00:00:46,774 layers gently but firmly until she and her 20 00:00:46,774 --> 00:00:49,094 guests uncover what's really going on beneath the 21 00:00:49,094 --> 00:00:49,594 surface. 22 00:00:50,215 --> 00:00:52,295 It's about what happens when someone shows up 23 00:00:52,295 --> 00:00:55,575 cranky, disengaged, or checked out, and why just 24 00:00:55,575 --> 00:00:57,530 do your job is never the the full 25 00:00:57,530 --> 00:00:59,530 answer. Whether the problem is a hidden medical 26 00:00:59,530 --> 00:01:02,009 issue, a fertility struggle, or something at home 27 00:01:02,009 --> 00:01:03,390 that's bleeding into the workplace, 28 00:01:03,850 --> 00:01:06,510 great leaders don't shy away. They get curious. 29 00:01:06,729 --> 00:01:09,129 They pull aside people. They ask the right 30 00:01:09,129 --> 00:01:09,629 questions. 31 00:01:09,995 --> 00:01:12,795 This conversation is candid, a little uncomfortable, and 32 00:01:12,795 --> 00:01:14,795 exactly the kind of dialogue we need more 33 00:01:14,795 --> 00:01:17,694 of in every workplace. It's about practicing compassion, 34 00:01:17,915 --> 00:01:19,295 curiosity, and accountability 35 00:01:19,755 --> 00:01:21,435 all at once. So if you're a leader 36 00:01:21,435 --> 00:01:23,034 who wants to learn how to navigate the 37 00:01:23,034 --> 00:01:25,590 tough stuff, to really see your people, and 38 00:01:25,590 --> 00:01:27,989 never let a good crisis pass you by, 39 00:01:27,989 --> 00:01:29,450 this episode is for you. 40 00:01:33,109 --> 00:01:33,609 Enjoy. 41 00:01:34,549 --> 00:01:37,590 So I am here with two amazing people. 42 00:01:37,590 --> 00:01:39,369 So first, let me just say the obligatory 43 00:01:39,670 --> 00:01:41,715 thank you. Dan, I'm gonna give you four 44 00:01:41,715 --> 00:01:43,635 seconds to go ahead and introduce yourselves to 45 00:01:43,635 --> 00:01:45,495 our audience today. Go for it. 46 00:01:46,114 --> 00:01:48,114 My name is Dan Bolger, and I am 47 00:01:48,114 --> 00:01:49,655 a former foreign policy 48 00:01:49,954 --> 00:01:51,334 and development expert, 49 00:01:52,355 --> 00:01:53,875 and I now live in the New York 50 00:01:53,875 --> 00:01:55,555 area and delighted to be a part of 51 00:01:55,555 --> 00:01:57,290 this podcast. Thank you so much for inviting 52 00:01:57,290 --> 00:01:59,290 me, Wendy. And a good buddy is Matt 53 00:01:59,290 --> 00:02:01,370 Wyler, who full disclosure I grew up with, 54 00:02:01,370 --> 00:02:02,430 known him for forever. 55 00:02:02,730 --> 00:02:04,650 Little bit of royalty in our home, so 56 00:02:04,650 --> 00:02:06,489 I'm always humbled when the Wylers are in 57 00:02:06,489 --> 00:02:08,650 the room. So, Matt, go ahead and introduce 58 00:02:08,650 --> 00:02:09,150 yourself. 59 00:02:09,474 --> 00:02:11,675 Well, my name is Matt Wyler. I am, 60 00:02:12,514 --> 00:02:14,754 as Wendy said, originally from Hartsdale, New York, 61 00:02:14,754 --> 00:02:16,534 Woodlands class of '79. 62 00:02:16,675 --> 00:02:16,995 And, 63 00:02:17,635 --> 00:02:20,995 I am a, recently well, retired last year 64 00:02:20,995 --> 00:02:22,995 after thirty five years in the Department of 65 00:02:22,995 --> 00:02:25,110 State. Still working occasionally 66 00:02:25,409 --> 00:02:27,750 as a retiree for the Department of State. 67 00:02:28,370 --> 00:02:29,189 Little disclaimer, 68 00:02:29,569 --> 00:02:31,330 the views I express here are my own, 69 00:02:31,330 --> 00:02:33,030 not those of the Department of State. 70 00:02:33,810 --> 00:02:36,129 And that's how we want it. So welcome 71 00:02:36,129 --> 00:02:38,625 to This Is Your Job Now. So Dan 72 00:02:38,625 --> 00:02:40,465 and Matt, I'm gonna let you fight over 73 00:02:40,465 --> 00:02:42,625 this first point of view. So in my 74 00:02:42,625 --> 00:02:45,264 thirty years, the role of leadership has changed 75 00:02:45,264 --> 00:02:45,764 dramatically. 76 00:02:46,064 --> 00:02:49,105 And I'm still getting a lot of, it's 77 00:02:49,105 --> 00:02:50,965 not my job, that's HR's. 78 00:02:51,460 --> 00:02:53,540 I don't wanna get involved. I just wanna 79 00:02:53,540 --> 00:02:55,960 do my job. I just want the organization 80 00:02:56,180 --> 00:02:57,080 to be productive. 81 00:02:57,540 --> 00:03:00,180 So how are you feeling about leadership today? 82 00:03:00,180 --> 00:03:02,280 Quick answer. Who wants to dive in? 83 00:03:03,219 --> 00:03:03,719 Dan? 84 00:03:04,419 --> 00:03:06,260 I I feel you know, thank you. I 85 00:03:06,260 --> 00:03:07,000 feel like 86 00:03:07,504 --> 00:03:10,305 the there are some unsung heroes with any 87 00:03:10,305 --> 00:03:11,205 any organization 88 00:03:11,504 --> 00:03:12,164 and department. 89 00:03:12,465 --> 00:03:14,465 Nice nice to you, Paul. I like the 90 00:03:14,465 --> 00:03:16,544 optimism we're ringing in right now. I like 91 00:03:16,544 --> 00:03:17,125 the optimism. 92 00:03:18,064 --> 00:03:20,564 Right. No. Absolutely. But HR, IT, 93 00:03:20,949 --> 00:03:23,989 security, and even comms oftentimes get short shrift. 94 00:03:23,989 --> 00:03:26,969 And by simply delegating tasks to them 95 00:03:27,509 --> 00:03:30,709 doesn't guarantee or doesn't ensure that the message 96 00:03:30,709 --> 00:03:32,709 has been sent clearly or that they're gonna 97 00:03:32,709 --> 00:03:33,689 be able to fulfill 98 00:03:33,989 --> 00:03:36,069 what has been asked. You there's gotta be 99 00:03:36,069 --> 00:03:37,235 a measure 100 00:03:38,254 --> 00:03:39,474 of mentoring, coaching, 101 00:03:39,935 --> 00:03:40,435 cajoling, 102 00:03:41,215 --> 00:03:43,854 and embrace to, I think, really make it 103 00:03:43,854 --> 00:03:45,634 make it. And I think so so that's 104 00:03:45,935 --> 00:03:47,935 that's something that that is is there's a 105 00:03:47,935 --> 00:03:49,775 gap in the current Okay. So, Matt, what 106 00:03:49,775 --> 00:03:50,514 do you think? 107 00:03:51,000 --> 00:03:53,000 Are you as optimistic as your buddy over 108 00:03:53,000 --> 00:03:55,180 here? Dan's feeling good about the world. 109 00:03:55,879 --> 00:03:59,180 I well, I believe good leadership is fair, 110 00:03:59,319 --> 00:03:59,819 consistent, 111 00:04:00,599 --> 00:04:01,099 kind. 112 00:04:01,400 --> 00:04:02,300 Not pushovery 113 00:04:02,599 --> 00:04:03,500 kind, but 114 00:04:03,924 --> 00:04:05,444 fair, honest, and, 115 00:04:06,004 --> 00:04:09,044 and engaged kind and willing to make tough 116 00:04:09,044 --> 00:04:10,424 decisions. And I think 117 00:04:10,884 --> 00:04:13,204 those people are still out there, and the 118 00:04:13,204 --> 00:04:15,384 good ones continue to do those things. 119 00:04:16,300 --> 00:04:17,660 Okay. So let me ask you a tough 120 00:04:17,660 --> 00:04:19,420 question. This is a quiz. Are you ready 121 00:04:19,420 --> 00:04:20,160 for the quiz? 122 00:04:20,460 --> 00:04:20,960 Okay. 123 00:04:22,060 --> 00:04:23,580 All the stories that we share on this 124 00:04:23,580 --> 00:04:25,580 is your job now are real. Obviously, we 125 00:04:25,580 --> 00:04:28,400 just protect as Matt said, we protect people. 126 00:04:28,460 --> 00:04:30,319 This is a top leader in an organization 127 00:04:30,540 --> 00:04:31,840 that's been very cranky. 128 00:04:32,834 --> 00:04:35,074 She's a cranky leader, and her team says 129 00:04:35,074 --> 00:04:37,574 she's super smart, but super cranky. 130 00:04:38,675 --> 00:04:40,834 Super cranky. The team is very upset about 131 00:04:40,834 --> 00:04:42,754 this. Tell me some of the reasons that 132 00:04:42,754 --> 00:04:43,894 she might be cranky. 133 00:04:46,129 --> 00:04:47,649 Can I just say, you know, one of 134 00:04:47,649 --> 00:04:48,550 my my, 135 00:04:48,930 --> 00:04:52,529 newest lines is don't hire for IQ, hire 136 00:04:52,529 --> 00:04:53,270 for EQ? 137 00:04:54,290 --> 00:04:56,610 Okay. That sounds sounds like sounds like she's 138 00:04:56,610 --> 00:04:59,024 an IQ hire as opposed to Okay. Or 139 00:04:59,024 --> 00:05:00,865 an IQ leader as opposed to an EQ 140 00:05:00,865 --> 00:05:03,504 leader. That. We're done. 100% right. But she's 141 00:05:03,504 --> 00:05:05,345 there. So we can't fix that. Right? This 142 00:05:05,345 --> 00:05:07,425 is a leader who's there. So whether it's 143 00:05:07,425 --> 00:05:09,345 a good hire or not hire, this is 144 00:05:09,345 --> 00:05:12,164 a leader who is there, and her boss 145 00:05:12,224 --> 00:05:12,964 is saying, 146 00:05:14,050 --> 00:05:16,129 I don't care that you're cranky. Get it 147 00:05:16,129 --> 00:05:17,750 together and be a better leader. 148 00:05:18,529 --> 00:05:20,689 What has changed? Tell me what you think 149 00:05:20,689 --> 00:05:22,930 might be going on. Give a guess, dad. 150 00:05:22,930 --> 00:05:24,870 What do you think she's cranky about? 151 00:05:25,425 --> 00:05:28,644 The person may have some semblance of emotional 152 00:05:28,704 --> 00:05:30,564 intelligence. Right? The EQ. 153 00:05:31,024 --> 00:05:33,105 But on that particular time in that moment, 154 00:05:33,105 --> 00:05:35,745 they may be going through something personal. Right? 155 00:05:35,745 --> 00:05:38,324 Like what? Like what? Could be family issues. 156 00:05:38,384 --> 00:05:39,480 Could be First what? 157 00:05:40,360 --> 00:05:40,840 Could be, 158 00:05:41,240 --> 00:05:42,839 kids. A problem with kids. Okay. So talk 159 00:05:42,839 --> 00:05:45,160 to me. What are the questions that you 160 00:05:45,160 --> 00:05:46,060 think a leader, 161 00:05:46,360 --> 00:05:49,000 and I'm gonna be judgy here, should ask 162 00:05:49,000 --> 00:05:50,699 to find out what's going on? 163 00:05:51,574 --> 00:05:53,735 Well, the question should be open and sort 164 00:05:53,735 --> 00:05:56,055 of open probes. Like, you know, hey hey 165 00:05:56,055 --> 00:05:58,214 hey, miss so and so. You know? Do 166 00:05:58,214 --> 00:05:59,735 you have some time to to share? Is 167 00:05:59,735 --> 00:06:01,675 there is there anything we should know about? 168 00:06:01,814 --> 00:06:04,535 Be calm. I'm good. I'm good, dad. I'm 169 00:06:04,535 --> 00:06:06,375 all good. I'm all set. I'm all good. 170 00:06:06,375 --> 00:06:08,149 Don't worry about me. But but by the 171 00:06:08,149 --> 00:06:10,069 same token, you know, hear me out. Hear 172 00:06:10,069 --> 00:06:12,250 me out. Hear me out, ma'am, miss, 173 00:06:12,709 --> 00:06:13,209 director, 174 00:06:13,509 --> 00:06:16,410 supervisor, ambassador. Got it. Fill in the blank. 175 00:06:17,110 --> 00:06:18,009 There's been, 176 00:06:18,470 --> 00:06:19,290 there's been 177 00:06:19,714 --> 00:06:22,514 some concern on the part of the office 178 00:06:22,514 --> 00:06:23,014 politic 179 00:06:23,394 --> 00:06:25,555 that, you know, something may be afoot. If 180 00:06:25,555 --> 00:06:27,634 there's anything that we need to know, please 181 00:06:27,634 --> 00:06:29,954 feel free to reach out. I'm here. Again, 182 00:06:29,954 --> 00:06:32,194 take your time. We wanna we wanna be 183 00:06:32,194 --> 00:06:32,694 successful. 184 00:06:33,910 --> 00:06:36,629 Again, the thing about this podcast is we're 185 00:06:36,629 --> 00:06:39,269 gonna fantasize for a minute that we're gonna 186 00:06:39,269 --> 00:06:42,089 go with what Matt said. A kind leader 187 00:06:42,870 --> 00:06:44,009 a kind leader 188 00:06:44,550 --> 00:06:47,514 may also think through how they can make 189 00:06:47,514 --> 00:06:49,835 it the safest possible way for this person 190 00:06:49,835 --> 00:06:50,895 to actually tell 191 00:06:51,514 --> 00:06:53,375 their boss, the leader's leader, 192 00:06:53,675 --> 00:06:54,814 what could be happening. 193 00:06:55,754 --> 00:06:57,935 So what other quest what let's just 194 00:06:58,279 --> 00:07:00,680 brainstorm. Matt, what could also be going on 195 00:07:00,680 --> 00:07:02,439 with this woman? And by the way, this 196 00:07:02,439 --> 00:07:05,180 is a numbers one, two, or three issue 197 00:07:05,399 --> 00:07:07,019 in corporate America today. 198 00:07:07,800 --> 00:07:09,720 I mean, I was looking at there's carrot 199 00:07:09,720 --> 00:07:11,319 and stick issues here. I mean, the carrot 200 00:07:11,319 --> 00:07:13,334 is obviously when I the the things that 201 00:07:13,334 --> 00:07:15,334 Dan was asking. But the stick things are 202 00:07:15,334 --> 00:07:16,615 like I I mean, are you 203 00:07:17,254 --> 00:07:18,694 and hard to kind of phrase this this 204 00:07:18,694 --> 00:07:20,935 way, but are are you getting along with 205 00:07:20,935 --> 00:07:23,274 your staff? Are you feeling threatened by anybody? 206 00:07:23,415 --> 00:07:25,495 And I don't mean threatened in the in 207 00:07:25,495 --> 00:07:27,479 the danger way. About it. So you're saying 208 00:07:27,479 --> 00:07:29,160 it's not a work related issue. I'll tell 209 00:07:29,160 --> 00:07:31,819 you that it's almost never what we've learned 210 00:07:31,879 --> 00:07:33,259 in thirty years of studying, 211 00:07:33,720 --> 00:07:36,120 about 88% of the time, it's not a 212 00:07:36,120 --> 00:07:38,919 work related issue. These leaders, because this is 213 00:07:38,919 --> 00:07:40,759 a podcast about leadership, they get to do 214 00:07:40,759 --> 00:07:42,725 their jobs. That's not their problem. It's not 215 00:07:42,725 --> 00:07:44,725 a job. It's not a job related issue. 216 00:07:44,725 --> 00:07:46,884 So I think Dan was closer. Sorry, Matt. 217 00:07:46,884 --> 00:07:48,404 I gotta throw it back to Dan. He 218 00:07:48,404 --> 00:07:51,204 might win on this one. Okay. It's almost 219 00:07:51,204 --> 00:07:54,084 always a non work related issue, but I 220 00:07:54,084 --> 00:07:56,479 wanna make it really safe. What's the questions 221 00:07:56,539 --> 00:07:58,939 that you're thinking it could be? Let's just 222 00:07:58,939 --> 00:08:01,279 blunt it out. What could it be? Promotion 223 00:08:01,339 --> 00:08:03,259 or lack of lack of Not a job 224 00:08:03,259 --> 00:08:04,720 related. Don't go see. 225 00:08:05,099 --> 00:08:06,939 I just finished telling you not a job 226 00:08:06,939 --> 00:08:08,694 related. Now I gotta go back to Matt. 227 00:08:08,694 --> 00:08:10,935 You lost that round. I'm a contender still. 228 00:08:10,935 --> 00:08:11,754 I'm a contender. 229 00:08:12,295 --> 00:08:14,615 You're a contender. Yeah. I love it. Could 230 00:08:14,615 --> 00:08:16,074 be also medical. 231 00:08:16,694 --> 00:08:18,955 You know, people Okay. People, 232 00:08:19,895 --> 00:08:21,895 you know, people like to play through pain, 233 00:08:21,895 --> 00:08:23,835 particularly high powered people. 234 00:08:24,289 --> 00:08:27,569 And, you know, sometimes they don't I think 235 00:08:27,569 --> 00:08:29,410 men in particular I mean, you we're talking 236 00:08:29,410 --> 00:08:31,009 in this case about a woman, but I 237 00:08:31,009 --> 00:08:32,149 think men in particular 238 00:08:32,610 --> 00:08:34,070 will ignore pain 239 00:08:34,529 --> 00:08:36,950 and yet that pain I can think of 240 00:08:37,089 --> 00:08:39,269 a senior official career 241 00:08:39,705 --> 00:08:41,945 that is that I know of who's known 242 00:08:41,945 --> 00:08:43,165 as a screamer, and 243 00:08:43,705 --> 00:08:47,305 I we he has some physical issues. And 244 00:08:47,305 --> 00:08:49,465 and, you know, I am of the belief 245 00:08:49,465 --> 00:08:51,884 that that is a lot of what is 246 00:08:52,184 --> 00:08:54,899 causing his issues. Could be. So so if 247 00:08:54,899 --> 00:08:56,740 you were and and for sake of time, 248 00:08:56,740 --> 00:08:59,000 because we wanna we wanna keep everybody engaged. 249 00:08:59,620 --> 00:09:01,860 Right? Ask me the questions that you need 250 00:09:01,860 --> 00:09:04,279 to know. You're a kind, compassionate 251 00:09:04,980 --> 00:09:07,000 leader in today's world. 252 00:09:07,304 --> 00:09:08,985 You know you have a problem on hand. 253 00:09:08,985 --> 00:09:10,524 You know it's not work related. 254 00:09:10,904 --> 00:09:12,044 So it may be medical. 255 00:09:12,745 --> 00:09:14,424 So what is the question that you are 256 00:09:14,424 --> 00:09:16,924 gonna be courageous enough to ask Wendy? 257 00:09:17,865 --> 00:09:19,565 Do do you need time 258 00:09:20,585 --> 00:09:21,644 to to address 259 00:09:22,230 --> 00:09:24,709 whatever issues might be occurring? I mean, how 260 00:09:24,709 --> 00:09:26,250 can we backstop you 261 00:09:26,870 --> 00:09:29,110 to to support whatever time away from the 262 00:09:29,110 --> 00:09:31,589 office or or away from projects that you 263 00:09:31,589 --> 00:09:32,330 might need? 264 00:09:32,870 --> 00:09:34,389 Okay. So, Kate, let me add. Can I 265 00:09:34,389 --> 00:09:36,570 ask you a personal question? Me? Yes. 266 00:09:36,950 --> 00:09:38,625 Yep. I don't know you as well as 267 00:09:38,625 --> 00:09:40,225 Matt. So Matt's easier for me to play 268 00:09:40,225 --> 00:09:41,664 around with, but getting to know you a 269 00:09:41,664 --> 00:09:43,664 little bit better on this call. So has 270 00:09:43,664 --> 00:09:45,824 it ever happened where you've had to suck 271 00:09:45,824 --> 00:09:46,964 it up and go to work? 272 00:09:47,664 --> 00:09:49,845 Oh, wait. Something at home with your family? 273 00:09:50,779 --> 00:09:51,519 Oh, absolutely. 274 00:09:52,059 --> 00:09:55,100 Yeah. Yes. What's the question on those days 275 00:09:55,100 --> 00:09:57,120 that you wish someone had asked you? 276 00:09:57,740 --> 00:10:00,320 On the hardest day, when you were really 277 00:10:00,379 --> 00:10:02,825 sucking it up and going to work, what 278 00:10:02,825 --> 00:10:04,985 is the question you wish a leader had 279 00:10:04,985 --> 00:10:06,924 asked you? Well, first, how are you? 280 00:10:08,024 --> 00:10:09,085 How is everything? 281 00:10:09,625 --> 00:10:10,684 How's your family? 282 00:10:11,384 --> 00:10:12,205 I'm fine. 283 00:10:12,745 --> 00:10:13,485 I'm fine. 284 00:10:14,264 --> 00:10:15,705 I mean and I would say that if 285 00:10:15,705 --> 00:10:17,110 if there were you know, if, you know, 286 00:10:17,110 --> 00:10:18,629 I had to suck it up for a, 287 00:10:18,629 --> 00:10:20,389 you know, a big presentation or a big 288 00:10:20,389 --> 00:10:22,790 client meeting, and I just really was not 289 00:10:22,790 --> 00:10:23,690 able. But 290 00:10:25,269 --> 00:10:25,929 an aside 291 00:10:26,230 --> 00:10:26,970 a sidebar. 292 00:10:27,429 --> 00:10:29,290 I think I think in terms of leadership, 293 00:10:29,350 --> 00:10:31,830 check ins, sidebars, being able to pull someone 294 00:10:31,830 --> 00:10:34,205 aside and say Okay. I love that. I 295 00:10:34,205 --> 00:10:35,644 love that. I think that's a really important 296 00:10:35,644 --> 00:10:37,024 takeaway for for listeners. 297 00:10:37,325 --> 00:10:39,584 I think the idea of sidebars are super 298 00:10:39,804 --> 00:10:42,684 chef's kiss, Dan. Total great takeaway. I gotta 299 00:10:42,684 --> 00:10:45,164 pull you aside. No. That's a real tangible 300 00:10:45,164 --> 00:10:47,664 tip. Right? I gotta pull you away. Matt? 301 00:10:48,389 --> 00:10:50,889 You need to get that person talking. 302 00:10:51,269 --> 00:10:52,870 I mean, whatever you need to do, you 303 00:10:52,870 --> 00:10:55,110 don't need to tell them much. You just 304 00:10:55,110 --> 00:10:57,769 need them talking. Once you get them talking, 305 00:10:57,909 --> 00:10:59,829 very often, all people need to do is 306 00:10:59,829 --> 00:11:01,750 vent. I've got this thing with my kid. 307 00:11:01,750 --> 00:11:03,209 He's not going to school. 308 00:11:03,615 --> 00:11:06,014 And and and then, usually, what happens in 309 00:11:06,014 --> 00:11:09,054 those situations is that employee will thank you 310 00:11:09,054 --> 00:11:11,855 afterwards, and they'll walk out of there, if 311 00:11:11,855 --> 00:11:12,674 not completely 312 00:11:13,134 --> 00:11:16,589 better off, but happier and kind of feeling 313 00:11:16,970 --> 00:11:20,110 like somehow they've been unburdened partially at least. 314 00:11:21,049 --> 00:11:23,370 Beautiful answer. Both of you hit the nail 315 00:11:23,370 --> 00:11:25,049 on the head. You gotta take the person, 316 00:11:25,049 --> 00:11:26,809 you gotta sidebar them, and you gotta get 317 00:11:26,809 --> 00:11:28,669 them talking. And in this situation, 318 00:11:29,045 --> 00:11:31,684 this is a woman who is later not 319 00:11:31,684 --> 00:11:34,805 not, in her face and, having major fertility 320 00:11:34,805 --> 00:11:37,945 issues, which is a very big issue today 321 00:11:38,004 --> 00:11:39,925 in corporate America that we don't always talk 322 00:11:39,925 --> 00:11:41,785 about. In government, in hospitals, 323 00:11:42,165 --> 00:11:43,785 women waited careers. 324 00:11:44,419 --> 00:11:46,899 You know, the span changed, and they got 325 00:11:46,899 --> 00:11:48,339 to a place where they said, now I 326 00:11:48,339 --> 00:11:51,059 wanna have a child and fertility issues. And 327 00:11:51,059 --> 00:11:52,659 you as a leader might say, hey. That's 328 00:11:52,659 --> 00:11:54,259 not my job. I don't wanna deal with 329 00:11:54,259 --> 00:11:54,759 that. 330 00:11:56,179 --> 00:11:57,480 That that's yucky. 331 00:11:57,904 --> 00:11:59,985 And I purposely picked that topic for two 332 00:11:59,985 --> 00:12:02,304 men because I think maybe there's some gender 333 00:12:02,304 --> 00:12:04,465 there that men might say, So in this 334 00:12:04,465 --> 00:12:07,585 situation, this woman is on massive fertility drugs 335 00:12:07,585 --> 00:12:10,565 to Matt's point. Yeah. So there's some medical. 336 00:12:10,625 --> 00:12:12,004 But to your point, 337 00:12:12,410 --> 00:12:14,170 she does it affect her job, and will 338 00:12:14,170 --> 00:12:15,850 it continue to affect her job for a 339 00:12:15,850 --> 00:12:17,529 very long period of time? What do you 340 00:12:17,529 --> 00:12:19,629 think the answer is? Matt's not a plan 341 00:12:19,690 --> 00:12:22,170 with them, but just carrying forward what's happening. 342 00:12:22,250 --> 00:12:25,425 Comfortable are you talking about this? How comfortable 343 00:12:25,485 --> 00:12:27,884 are Dan and Matt talking to somebody, a 344 00:12:27,884 --> 00:12:30,065 leader, about their fertility issues? 345 00:12:31,085 --> 00:12:34,605 Yeah. This is thus the, the rub here 346 00:12:34,605 --> 00:12:36,365 because I can tell you in the public 347 00:12:36,365 --> 00:12:36,865 sector, 348 00:12:37,850 --> 00:12:40,909 you know, maybe it's changing somewhat since January, 349 00:12:40,970 --> 00:12:42,589 but those are very 350 00:12:43,209 --> 00:12:46,250 can be very dangerous conversations to have. And, 351 00:12:46,889 --> 00:12:48,829 And that is why we created this podcast 352 00:12:48,889 --> 00:12:51,384 now. Yeah. Because we are going back to 353 00:12:51,384 --> 00:12:51,884 suppression, 354 00:12:52,264 --> 00:12:54,664 and we're going back to closet, and we're 355 00:12:54,664 --> 00:12:56,345 going back to I'm too scared to have 356 00:12:56,345 --> 00:12:59,245 this conversation, Wendy. It's not my job anymore. 357 00:12:59,304 --> 00:13:02,504 Well, interestingly, Wendy, I I would disagree slightly. 358 00:13:02,504 --> 00:13:03,804 I think in in 359 00:13:04,440 --> 00:13:06,279 one of the, you know, never let a 360 00:13:06,279 --> 00:13:08,279 good crisis pass you by, and I think 361 00:13:08,279 --> 00:13:11,320 granted things have changed considerably in the government 362 00:13:11,320 --> 00:13:14,600 elsewhere recently, but people are still in the 363 00:13:14,600 --> 00:13:15,100 government 364 00:13:15,639 --> 00:13:18,360 approaching these things in the way they would 365 00:13:18,360 --> 00:13:21,195 have six, eight months ago, and they haven't 366 00:13:21,514 --> 00:13:23,754 I love it. Thought about maybe that that 367 00:13:23,754 --> 00:13:25,375 there is an opening now 368 00:13:25,834 --> 00:13:28,475 to speak more freely about things that might 369 00:13:28,475 --> 00:13:32,235 have gotten them into EEO related trouble, to 370 00:13:32,235 --> 00:13:33,134 to be frank. 371 00:13:34,059 --> 00:13:36,460 Right. Good. I I think that's great. I 372 00:13:36,460 --> 00:13:38,779 I love to hear. So alright. As we 373 00:13:38,779 --> 00:13:40,779 begin to get to the end and you 374 00:13:40,779 --> 00:13:43,659 have a sense of our messaging. Right? What 375 00:13:43,659 --> 00:13:46,940 is our job today different in really one 376 00:13:46,940 --> 00:13:48,975 sense or less, Dan? How would you sum 377 00:13:48,975 --> 00:13:50,675 it up? You're an expert. 378 00:13:51,055 --> 00:13:53,695 You've been in the world of truly difficult 379 00:13:53,695 --> 00:13:57,235 situations for umpteen years. So your biggest 380 00:13:58,095 --> 00:14:01,615 takeaway for leaders today is what? Absolutely lead 381 00:14:01,615 --> 00:14:02,274 with empathy, 382 00:14:02,940 --> 00:14:04,240 But doing so 383 00:14:04,700 --> 00:14:05,519 in a way 384 00:14:06,059 --> 00:14:08,460 that's clear to those who work with you, 385 00:14:08,460 --> 00:14:10,720 around you, for you, 386 00:14:11,660 --> 00:14:13,040 you know, what that really 387 00:14:13,419 --> 00:14:15,919 what that really means, how it plays out. 388 00:14:16,024 --> 00:14:18,264 You know, people aren't naturally born with these 389 00:14:18,345 --> 00:14:21,404 the the capacity to Mhmm. Understand, to catch. 390 00:14:21,465 --> 00:14:22,764 You have to practice it. 391 00:14:23,465 --> 00:14:25,225 You have to you have to skill. Do 392 00:14:25,225 --> 00:14:27,465 you have a leader that you admire and 393 00:14:27,465 --> 00:14:29,304 that would be a public one that we 394 00:14:29,304 --> 00:14:31,065 could go to look at? Like, do you 395 00:14:31,065 --> 00:14:33,190 have a what would someone to so and 396 00:14:33,190 --> 00:14:35,509 so do? Pretty much everybody knows. Mine is 397 00:14:35,509 --> 00:14:36,330 Michelle Obama, 398 00:14:36,710 --> 00:14:38,550 but, you know, but but who would be 399 00:14:38,550 --> 00:14:40,950 yours, Dan? I wanna answer that question too 400 00:14:40,950 --> 00:14:42,790 when you get a chance. Why don't you 401 00:14:42,790 --> 00:14:44,550 go mad? I don't want you go mad 402 00:14:44,550 --> 00:14:46,550 for why don't you go ahead? Go ahead, 403 00:14:46,550 --> 00:14:48,355 Matt. Anthony Fauci. 404 00:14:49,294 --> 00:14:50,914 Man is a is a 405 00:14:51,294 --> 00:14:53,554 hero. An absolute hero. Okay. 406 00:14:55,934 --> 00:14:59,075 Just Wow. His constant, consistent, 407 00:15:00,095 --> 00:15:03,389 professional and measured approach, the way I've I've 408 00:15:03,389 --> 00:15:04,529 read his autobiography 409 00:15:05,629 --> 00:15:07,309 and I love it. Read lots of things 410 00:15:07,309 --> 00:15:10,110 about him. And he is consistent and fair 411 00:15:10,110 --> 00:15:10,610 and 412 00:15:11,149 --> 00:15:11,649 brilliant, 413 00:15:11,950 --> 00:15:14,209 but doesn't necessarily flaunt his brilliance, 414 00:15:14,509 --> 00:15:17,105 which in a place like Washington can happen. 415 00:15:17,105 --> 00:15:19,445 So he would be my ideal 416 00:15:19,904 --> 00:15:20,644 great leader. 417 00:15:21,424 --> 00:15:23,264 I think my mother would agree with you. 418 00:15:23,264 --> 00:15:25,745 So thank you for that one. Yeah. Okay. 419 00:15:25,745 --> 00:15:28,404 Dan. I'd say Stanley McChrystal, general McChrystal, 420 00:15:28,705 --> 00:15:30,325 because he's brilliant, 421 00:15:31,080 --> 00:15:32,860 courageous, incredibly disciplined, 422 00:15:33,240 --> 00:15:35,399 but, a member of my family actually got 423 00:15:35,399 --> 00:15:37,639 to work with him directly and helped him 424 00:15:37,639 --> 00:15:39,100 prepare for TED Talk. 425 00:15:39,639 --> 00:15:42,040 He's currently, I believe, still at Yale doing 426 00:15:42,040 --> 00:15:45,845 international strategy and competitive strategy that he's parlayed 427 00:15:45,845 --> 00:15:48,245 to the the corporate sector from his experience 428 00:15:48,245 --> 00:15:50,485 in the military. I wanted to I wanna 429 00:15:50,485 --> 00:15:52,105 thank you so much for 430 00:15:52,565 --> 00:15:55,065 being all over the world, chiming in, 431 00:15:55,445 --> 00:15:57,304 sharing decades of experience, 432 00:15:58,084 --> 00:16:00,449 with us and our listeners today. We never 433 00:16:00,449 --> 00:16:02,289 get a chance to talk to people like 434 00:16:02,289 --> 00:16:03,269 Dan and Matt. 435 00:16:03,809 --> 00:16:05,730 So I really wanna take a moment and 436 00:16:05,730 --> 00:16:07,809 thank you so much for being on. This 437 00:16:07,809 --> 00:16:11,110 is your job now. We're highlighting you. We're 438 00:16:11,250 --> 00:16:13,504 really grateful for your time here today. So 439 00:16:13,504 --> 00:16:15,664 thank you, Dan, and thank you, Matt. Our 440 00:16:15,664 --> 00:16:17,605 pleasure. Absolutely. Thank you. 441 00:16:25,580 --> 00:16:27,419 Thanks for listening to this is your job 442 00:16:27,419 --> 00:16:30,059 now, produced by me, Kai. If this episode 443 00:16:30,059 --> 00:16:31,740 made you think or made you feel, we 444 00:16:31,740 --> 00:16:33,500 hope it also made you realize. You don't 445 00:16:33,500 --> 00:16:35,360 have to figure this out all alone. Leadership 446 00:16:35,419 --> 00:16:37,735 today is about presence, not perfection. To learn 447 00:16:37,735 --> 00:16:40,054 more, follow Wendy Wohner on LinkedIn, subscribe to 448 00:16:40,054 --> 00:16:42,375 Balancing Life's Issues on YouTube, or stream the 449 00:16:42,375 --> 00:16:44,535 podcast wherever you listen. Because if you're leading 450 00:16:44,535 --> 00:16:47,014 people, this is your job now. Anything else 451 00:16:47,014 --> 00:16:47,754 to add, Miles?