There's a line between owning who you are,
owning your characteristics.
Mh. And also
leading from your heart and and from your
soul. I really believe in that. Right? Instead
of your head.
Welcome do balancing life's issues the podcast. I'm
your host Kai, and I'm here as always
with Ceo of balancing life's issues. Wendy Will.
How are you today? Great. How are you?
We're doing okay? I mean, we're coming up
on a year since miles was born. Oh,
how quickly and slowly it goes at the
same time. Absolutely. Yeah. They weren't kidding when
they said it goes by fast. But anyways,
so... Yeah, we wanted to kinda give a
little bit of a framework for the conversation
you're gonna have doctor Jen. Can you tell
the audience a little bit about who who
this is? I can. You know, it's so
interesting because,
you know, for those of you who've been
following along. No, We're past our 20 fifth
year here at B, which is just, like
Kai just said,
because she were watching super slow at the
same time,
1 thing that has always been incredibly important
to me. And I think I I would
shout out my Alma armada University of Pennsylvania
is credibility.
You know, making sure that we're accurate, making
sure we're we are not in any way
misleading anybody. Our attendance are public with any
wrong information. And so
I'm always looking for the scientific
proof of what we talk about? 500 topics
what are we talk about? When I saw
Jen speak, doctor Hub Speak, I was like,
That's it. That was her her her platform
at the conference we met,
looking conference was this?
Behavioral health tech conference, coming up again, in
November. I'm super excited
about the the audience
that comes to that and credibility and working
with doctor Hub and understanding the benefits of
having a cheap scientific officer.
It's
equally as important. You know, if you... If
I said to you, Kai, You know, we
would run a business without a chief Financial
Officer or without an accountant. You would say,
Wow,
well, what are you doing? You know, I
mean, this is so cool. A conversation that
you've been having with with doctor Jen, and
it just kind of makes me think about
all the
misinformation out there. Right?
All the all the people that gather as
facts based off anecdotes. Right? And here, you're
going
straight to the source and you're using science.
To determine if
the
efficacy of what we do at V. Yeah.
And you know what's interesting about doctor Puberty
that I shade is that she understood from
the beginning that we needed to learn how
to do this for ourselves. You what? We
needed someone to teach us how to make
sure we have to sign mind, How to
ask the right questions on evaluations? How to
really understand are we making impact? Are the
podcast making it intact these specific Are Are
we making difference can we measure it? Yeah.
And we've just been so lucky to learn
from her on how to rewire our brain
to think that way? Absolutely. And, you know,
so we'll we'll get right to the conversation
and for those of you out there. If
you want to learn more, just go to
jen hub phd d dot com.
For more information and
enjoy the interview.
Hey, Jen. It's great to have you here.
How are you? Thank you. I'm good, Wendy.
How are you? Good. So, you know, before
we jump in, I think before we even
say who you are?
Just take a step back and instead of
shock the group, and
let's take back to
how we met and how I approach. You
wanna go ahead and tell our listeners the
story? No. Yeah. I would love to only
because it was... I've never been approaching in
this manner before, but I was very excited.
So we met at going digital behavioral health
tech,
which is a pretty,
a pretty nice conference for for the for
the industry of men digital mental health. I
was on a panel,
and I remember Wendy
just going showing her fate her head. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Like, a lot of things that
I was saying I was like, this girl
like what I haven't say.
And then afterwards, I come out of the
room and she comes up to me, she
stands in front of me. Has her business
far in her hand, and I remember you
though. I need you.
I love what you do. I love the
way you think I need you, and I'm
like, okay. And then you started telling me
about some of the things that you thought.
I need do for, and and I was
like, I definitely can help you. And that
was it. I remember telling my husband I'm
at met this cool lady. She wants me
to help her.
You know, and and it's so interesting because
I think you and I you know if
you do a venn diagram. There's this middle
ground about credibility.
And how do we earn credibility?
Not just as women, not just as women
Ceo, as mothers as caregivers of the world.
Right?
And And and this is a good segue
because that's that is who you are. You're
this credible expert.
You're you're a scientist
and
and you've earned it. So now it's a
good way to say. Let's do the formal
intro. Doctor Jen Hub, who are you? Yeah.
Thank you.
Okay. So I'll I'll just keep this super
brief, but,
I spent 20 years as a research scientist
in academics. I did my last 10 years
at Arizona State University,
and I was funded by the National Institutes
of Health millions of dollars for the different
research that I've done. Over the years.
I
always knew I didn't wanna be there though.
And,
I started working with non for profits and
for profits and looking at some of the
programming or whatever that they were offering and
testing it and trying to help them
understand if these things were quote unquote working.
So for example, at a boys and girls
club, they're offering
a program to help kids
not be obese. Does it really work? Like...
So
I would test those things and I would
say, hey, this isn't working, and this is
what you should do. So it works. If
you're spending the resources on it. So I
wanted to be in real world settings, so
I did that from the start. I was
very community driven community based driven. What does
the community need? I'll develop it around that?
So then,
I had my own trauma. My daughter was
born still at full term
and I turned to yoga and meditation, and
I was already working in women's health and
in cancer, and I said to myself, I'm
doing to disservice
if I'm not exploring
some of the practices that are helping my
own mental health, were yoga,
meditation, and I ended up using calm.
And then I reached out to them, and
I was like, I need to do research
with your app in cancer patients in whatever.
So they gave me some some, you know,
memberships, and I used it for participants and
2 years later, let's say, I flew myself
to calm, and I gave them a presentation.
I go look what your app does.
And
I left, and I went home and a
day later,
Literally, they were like, can you come back
like, next week, and this time we'll pay
for it. So they flew me back, put
me up, gave a presentation the next thing,
you know, he wanna be our director of
science. I was, like, absolutely. I wanna be
your director of science. I stayed with them
and stayed in a university setting.
For,
like,
most of the time and then the last
year, I left. I finally just said,
I got a very large grant for 2500000.0
dollars
to work on something with calm and cancer
patients, and I was, like, I don't need
to be an academia anymore. I can do
these things in industry, and so I packed
up my
my stuff, and I left, and then I
was at calm, like, a year. I would
say, on my own. I was there 5
years, but I was there a year outside
of As asu.
And I realized then that I was, like,
I should start my own business because all
these companies want my help I was getting
outreach and
Oh, scared, but I was ready to to
kinda of move on to the next thing,
and then I started my company and here
I am.
Yeah. And and, you know, we'd love this
story because would we wanna partner with people.
We wanna partner with really people?
Who have had an experience to show them
how important it is what we do.
And You mentioned right before, You're like, well,
my kids are sleep in and and who
knows what's gonna happen,
and that is so much... That's just right.
You, On the empty nest, but I got
my little puppy over here, so you never
know what he'll do. Both counts. But Yeah.
And so we've we've had some joys challenges,
and opportunities to get to know 1 another.
Yeah. And work together.
And I always think it's interesting because
you know, we are in results driven world.
Right?
Is what what of the results. What are
the results look like. And
mh. I think results are such an interesting
world,
especially for a scientist. So tell me some
things you've learned about the
The joys and the challenges of living in
this results world.
Yeah.
I beat the most interesting thing working with
Ceos and other companies is that
they are result... They wanna know the results,
but there's so much more
So I think it's like this misunderstanding of
results. So results can show up in different
way. It doesn't have to be a number
that says This is significantly better than this,
or this person changed significantly in this outcome.
Those are all fancy sexy numbers to use
for marketing and whatever's.
Everybody does that. But what are some other
results that you have in processes that you
do, And other... What are other ways that
you can show results.
Because I think that companies don't think about
it like that. So let's take, like, like
marketing and marketing research. You know, 1 of
the first things I ever did at come
was my most cited paper. We had 12000
calm users
sale out a survey about calm. It started
with me sitting with the director of marketing
who's no longer there. She was such a
doll.
But she
she wanted to find out more for for
their marketing, and I was reading the survey
going, you're gonna miss so
opportunities of other things that you can say
decide like, who you're marketing to and how
you're marketing it. Right? And so I... She
goes, okay. Revamped the survey. I was, like,
really. So I revamped the survey, and it
was, like,
In science world, it this doesn't hang as
well, but it's self reported 1 time. How
do you feel how has it helped you?
How has this impact you. It didn't have
to be an intervention. It didn't have to
be
a pre post a comparison to control group,
but it didn't even have to spend any
money. Let me stop you right there. I
think 1 of the lessons that I've learned
that you just do effortlessly because it's the
way your brain
works, and that mine is, you know how
to ask questions.
I guess. And you phrase questions, and you've
learned how to ask a question. And that
has become... We like to say transferable skills.
Right? So I've learned from listening just listening
to you and listened on a panel and
then the last few months of getting to
know you about... Oh, I could ask this
in a different way that would get me
the answers that I wanna listen to. Not
the answers I want.
Because that's a leading question. Right? That's like
saying here nothing take your hallmark. Right?
That's exactly. Right. That's exactly. Right. And you
do it effortlessly.
You immediately know how to retrain. And,
and I think that's 1 of the reasons
we want to have people like you on
our team is to say wait that I
need to listen. To the way to ask
a question.
So we always really like to give action
steps. So you bring in a scientist to
learn how to answer question, and to learn
how to ask the question.
That even
understand the types.
I think we get so so narrow with
the types of questions and the things that
we're getting at, it's like, if you think
about it, it's like most companies are like,
I do this for these people.
But
you have to find out more
information
because, like, just because you say that's who
you're targeting,
and that's what you're targeting doesn't mean that
that's happening with your clientele.
It also means that you can, like, grow
your market. So, like, that's how we use
science to do that. It's like the the
classic example I always use is Tom wanted
to do some stuff with women.
And,
women during, you know, like, life planning. And
it's like, we could assume that Calm is
reducing stress for pregnant women or women in
that. Place. But I was, like, shouldn't we
ask the pregnant women
even though we think we're reducing anxiety Or
shouldn't we ask them actually
And, you know, they were like, okay. So
I... But they were, like, do it on
your own. Whatever else. So I did a
survey in, like, a hundred and 5200 not
too many.
Women who were using calm in that time
and guess what. It wasn't stress and anxiety.
It was sleep.
I love it. And it's like you know,
so you're not even thinking. You're saying this
is what we do, but
there's takeaway number 2.
And
I've... I've... I think the smarter you get
there's the saying. Right? The more you know,
the more you know, you don't know? Yeah.
That's scary. Right? But takeaway number 2 is
I was wrong.
I got something wrong.
And I think it's so interesting because Jennifer
were honest, we're in a field. There's a
lot of egos.
Walk into a room. And if I go
back for a minute,
to that conference. I think 1 of the
things I noticed was,
I'm very used to a casual
I'm sort of rebranding myself. My new brand
is quirky and perk. Right? And, less about
what I wear and more about me being
this real intellectual.
And, so everybody's very appropriately dressed in the
suits, which I haven't seen in decade, but
I'm not.
And you you taught me how to ask
the questions had to listen for the answers
and I had to really embrace what I
was wrong about.
Regardless that I've been doing it for 30
years. So we've got so many takeaways.
I was wrong,
and I need to we learn something. So
you get this sleep information. What do you
do with that?
Yeah. Well, so that's the thing is like,
then I say, well, we have a whole
other way to market. Like, it's not like...
Anxiety and stress isn't the thing, That's always
a thing. But then you have this whole
other thing to market if you wanna get
more, you know, detailed, and that's kind of
what well, not kind of it is, how
I help by their companies just think about
their other markets. But they might not even
be aware of, Right? Or it's the opposite.
It's figuring out the market that you really
wanted. So, like, I'm helping an app right
now, and they say they're a app. For
holistic well being, and they're tailored for this
market. And I went to the market to
ask them, just something simple like for What
is holistic well being mean to you? Nobody
even knows what it means.
So this company is gonna have to rethink
how they the coin their term. I'd I
love it. No one's gonna listen to this
word if you do that. So it's like
being... It's be smart about what we're doing
and and thinking about it from that perspective.
But that's like the next takeaway. Right? Like,
this idea, we we can be scientists and
smart and intellectual, but not pre potentials. We
can make it simple. We can make it
easily to understand. Like and
we can embrace it. And I I do
think you're a little scary Jen. There's a
little, like, era of, like, on this scientists
that you know, immediately might have a little
funny. Yeah. Well, I think we all all,
not just women, but all face a little
impostor syndrome.
Of how are we going to say to
Jen like, well, doctor Hub,
I don't even know how to speak to
you.
So
how would you address that idea, Either Impostor
syndrome, Yeah. Even this idea of a little
bit of,
intimidation, little intimidating.
Yeah. Dr Hub day. Little intimidating.
Yeah.
People will tell me that, and I'm like
really.
But I I am very aware, but I
will say, like, let's just for a second
being a Ceo, like, I have a few
employees, whatever, but you you are definitely
a Ceo. And so it's like, in that
role, it's like,
you know, there's a line between... I'm learning
this as a leader now, and I... I've
been working on it for years leading doctor
students, but there's a line between owning who
you are.
Owning your characteristics.
Mh. And also
leading from your heart and and from your
soul. I really believe in that. Right? Instead
of your head. Because when you're leading from
your head, that's control, that's ego, that's to
micro,
that's, you know,
almost, like, degrading could be, you know, whatever.
But if you're if you're
if you're leading from your heart and your
soul,
then you're tapped into who you really are,
The things you're gonna say are gonna naturally
come out kinder. Then when you're tapped into
your head.
But then at the end of the day,
it it can still have this premise of
this is who I am. The ownership of
who I am, because it's coming from the
soul and not the head It's coming from
the heart and not the ego.
So I've really been working on, like, you
know what?
I might be intimidating.
You could even call me abrasive.
You could call me anything you want to.
Number 1, what do I identify with as
my own human being
Right? Because that's really what matters. I'm the
1 that has to go to sleep at
ninth with my problems or no problems, stocks,
you know, So how do I identify myself?
The rest is their stories, their beliefs, their
experiences, their responses, their reactions. But then, I'm
responsible from leading from my heart. And if
I'm having a hard time getting there, it's
my responsibility to get that support. Business coaches,
mentors, all those things. I'm literally getting goosebumps
as I say this to you because this
is literally my practice right now. That mh.
I can be bad, Jen He,
but I wanna do it from my heart
and not my head always.
I wanna do it from love and appreciation.
Always. And that is something most of us
never
freaking do because it's scary. It's scary to
do that. I don't think there's anything left
to say. When a scientist talks about their
love and heart, then I think we've made
the world a better place.
Trying. So, you know, Jen, it was an
honor to meet you back then,
I know we're gonna be lifelong buddies and
mentors to each 1 another for those that
are listening, go check and on, Linkedin,
shoot an email, We'll put it all our
contact information and
just wanna thank you for, giving us some
of your time today. Oh my gosh. Anytime,
anything for you on me.