1 00:00:00,075 --> 00:00:03,565 - It's rare for me to encounter another black person in 2 00:00:03,565 --> 00:00:06,205 technology, be it development or any other space, 3 00:00:06,345 --> 00:00:08,365 and it just feels like a pipeline problem to me. 4 00:00:11,835 --> 00:00:14,245 - Welcome to Balancing Life's Issues, the podcast, 5 00:00:14,585 --> 00:00:17,125 I'm your host Kai, and today we continue the celebration 6 00:00:17,125 --> 00:00:19,085 of Black History Month by sharing the story 7 00:00:19,085 --> 00:00:21,765 of someone we at BLI work with every single day. 8 00:00:21,905 --> 00:00:24,365 - I'm Michael Havis, and I'm a technical project 9 00:00:24,365 --> 00:00:25,605 lead that's Alliant Consulting, 10 00:00:25,845 --> 00:00:27,645 - A company that is vital to the success 11 00:00:27,745 --> 00:00:29,765 of the day-to-Day operations at BLI. 12 00:00:29,985 --> 00:00:32,005 And you wouldn't know it because you'll be listening 13 00:00:32,005 --> 00:00:33,445 to the story, but Michael is black. 14 00:00:33,745 --> 00:00:34,965 And according to a McKinsey 15 00:00:34,965 --> 00:00:37,725 and Company report, black people make up 12% 16 00:00:37,845 --> 00:00:41,245 of the US workforce, but only 8% of employees in tech jobs. 17 00:00:41,795 --> 00:00:43,405 That percentage is even smaller, 18 00:00:43,405 --> 00:00:44,805 further up the corporate ladder. 19 00:00:45,065 --> 00:00:46,485 So as we look to the significance 20 00:00:46,545 --> 00:00:49,685 of black Americans in our shared history this month, we want 21 00:00:49,685 --> 00:00:50,685 to look to people like Michael 22 00:00:50,945 --> 00:00:52,925 who are thriving in the tech industry today, 23 00:00:53,305 --> 00:00:56,205 and who hope to create better avenues for young black people 24 00:00:56,205 --> 00:00:57,325 because as Michael put 25 00:00:57,325 --> 00:01:00,365 - It, I think there's a lot of kids out there who just, 26 00:01:00,435 --> 00:01:02,805 just haven't heard that message, didn't know that 27 00:01:03,035 --> 00:01:04,365 that path existed at all. 28 00:01:04,465 --> 00:01:05,925 - And now I've had the pleasure of working 29 00:01:05,925 --> 00:01:07,845 with Michael a few times, but CEO 30 00:01:07,845 --> 00:01:10,325 of balancing life's issues, Wendy Woolner speaks 31 00:01:10,325 --> 00:01:11,365 to him every single day. 32 00:01:11,785 --> 00:01:14,405 So I'll let her share Michael's story with all of you. 33 00:01:14,675 --> 00:01:15,675 Take it away, Wendy. 34 00:01:19,985 --> 00:01:22,165 - So morning, Michael. - Good morning. 35 00:01:22,665 --> 00:01:24,685 - So, you know, um, it's been interesting 36 00:01:24,685 --> 00:01:26,725 because we're fairly new partners, 37 00:01:27,345 --> 00:01:30,285 but I have so much experience in your, in your space, right? 38 00:01:30,285 --> 00:01:32,005 We're a small business and, 39 00:01:32,105 --> 00:01:35,285 and you know, technology is not my thing. 40 00:01:35,505 --> 00:01:37,205 I'm the people thing, but 41 00:01:37,205 --> 00:01:38,925 yet we've become this technology person. 42 00:01:39,075 --> 00:01:42,005 I've been through so many different vendors and partners, 43 00:01:42,005 --> 00:01:44,125 and then we met you and this light bulb went off 44 00:01:44,265 --> 00:01:47,165 and you immediately got our business model 45 00:01:47,425 --> 00:01:49,045 and just jumped right in. 46 00:01:49,185 --> 00:01:50,925 So first, let me just say thank you. 47 00:01:51,355 --> 00:01:52,485 - Yeah, that's nice to hear. 48 00:01:52,625 --> 00:01:55,245 I'm glad, glad we could instill a confidence in you. 49 00:01:55,515 --> 00:01:58,565 - Well, it's not, you could, it's you specifically 50 00:01:59,405 --> 00:02:00,405 - . 51 00:02:00,405 --> 00:02:02,245 Okay, well thank you. That feels great to hear. 52 00:02:02,465 --> 00:02:03,565 - And if it wasn't enough 53 00:02:03,595 --> 00:02:06,405 that I felt like your knowledge base was so strong, 54 00:02:06,825 --> 00:02:08,685 you know, then there was a particular meeting 55 00:02:08,685 --> 00:02:11,645 where your little 2-year-old daughter popped up on your lap 56 00:02:12,545 --> 00:02:13,925 and I was like, wow, this is perfect. 57 00:02:14,155 --> 00:02:18,325 Like, you totally understand what we stand for. Right? 58 00:02:18,345 --> 00:02:19,845 So you felt comfortable bringing your 59 00:02:19,965 --> 00:02:21,045 daughter into the conversation. 60 00:02:21,155 --> 00:02:24,085 Yeah, but it also occurred to me as we are 61 00:02:24,105 --> 00:02:27,645 so passionate about Black History Month that you know, and, 62 00:02:27,645 --> 00:02:30,205 and I know all of you are listening, so you might not know 63 00:02:30,225 --> 00:02:32,885 or, or you know, you wouldn't know that Michael is a person 64 00:02:32,885 --> 00:02:34,205 of color and 65 00:02:34,495 --> 00:02:36,885 after 20 years, it's the first time 66 00:02:37,875 --> 00:02:41,245 that I've had anybody in the IT world be a person of color. 67 00:02:41,825 --> 00:02:44,245 And I wanted to have a discussion with you about like, 68 00:02:44,275 --> 00:02:45,965 this is, as you know, it's a crisis. 69 00:02:46,075 --> 00:02:48,725 It's on the front page of every paper, you know 70 00:02:48,755 --> 00:02:52,485 what happened in the technology field, and you're there. 71 00:02:52,905 --> 00:02:54,725 So you have the perfect skillset, 72 00:02:55,145 --> 00:02:56,605 you have the compassion in heart, 73 00:02:56,605 --> 00:02:59,125 you're like the neutral bullet blend, , , 74 00:02:59,545 --> 00:03:00,885 and you're also a person of color. 75 00:03:01,985 --> 00:03:04,125 So I'd like to hear from your perspective, 76 00:03:04,395 --> 00:03:05,685 what do you think is going on? 77 00:03:06,115 --> 00:03:07,445 - It's, it's funny that you say that. 78 00:03:07,505 --> 00:03:11,925 Um, Seline actually has A-A-A-D-E-I committee where we've, 79 00:03:12,385 --> 00:03:14,645 uh, looked into this exact issue. 80 00:03:14,905 --> 00:03:17,885 Um, something that I'm also very passionate about, like 81 00:03:17,885 --> 00:03:20,085 what, why there aren't more people of color, 82 00:03:20,405 --> 00:03:21,845 specifically why there aren't more black people 83 00:03:22,065 --> 00:03:23,205 in the technology space. 84 00:03:23,275 --> 00:03:24,845 Because it's rare for me to 85 00:03:25,435 --> 00:03:28,525 encounter another black person in technology, 86 00:03:29,225 --> 00:03:31,125 be it development or any other space, 87 00:03:31,425 --> 00:03:33,285 and it just feels like a pipeline problem to me. 88 00:03:33,925 --> 00:03:36,485 I didn't have my first programming class until college. 89 00:03:36,505 --> 00:03:40,125 Mm-Hmm. . And like there are now all 90 00:03:40,125 --> 00:03:41,285 of these different places 91 00:03:41,415 --> 00:03:43,525 where you don't need a college degree 92 00:03:43,625 --> 00:03:45,845 to get into technology, right? 93 00:03:45,985 --> 00:03:49,325 You can just be someone who loves computers 94 00:03:49,385 --> 00:03:51,125 or loves creating things. 95 00:03:51,585 --> 00:03:56,565 And if you have the the skills to, to actually do 96 00:03:56,565 --> 00:03:59,125 that, then you, you can get hired. 97 00:03:59,195 --> 00:04:01,005 It's not necessary to have a four year degree. 98 00:04:01,565 --> 00:04:03,565 - I think that's a really big takeaway for listeners. 99 00:04:03,565 --> 00:04:06,325 Like they can't see you, Michael, but they can hear you 100 00:04:06,345 --> 00:04:08,925 and you're inspiring people to say like, wait a minute, 101 00:04:08,925 --> 00:04:10,645 I didn't know this door was actually open to me. 102 00:04:10,995 --> 00:04:13,405 Yeah. Like, this is a possibility for me. 103 00:04:13,465 --> 00:04:15,245 So I think that's takeaway number one. 104 00:04:15,245 --> 00:04:17,605 Like, you know, I know everybody's talking about celebrating 105 00:04:17,605 --> 00:04:21,445 Black History month and, and my, my soapbox has been changed 106 00:04:21,705 --> 00:04:23,285 and we need to see this change. 107 00:04:23,395 --> 00:04:24,765 Like this is a critical change. 108 00:04:24,905 --> 00:04:26,645 We need to have people like you. Yeah. 109 00:04:26,985 --> 00:04:28,045 So that's the first thing. 110 00:04:28,045 --> 00:04:30,405 Is it this is a possibility for people. 111 00:04:30,815 --> 00:04:32,085 - Right? Right. And I think 112 00:04:32,085 --> 00:04:33,125 that's a Yeah, that's a great point. 113 00:04:33,125 --> 00:04:35,525 It's just first just knowing that it's a possibility, right? 114 00:04:35,525 --> 00:04:37,325 It's not something that I knew when I was a kid, 115 00:04:37,785 --> 00:04:41,725 and I think there's a lot of kids out there who just, 116 00:04:41,835 --> 00:04:44,165 just haven't heard that message, didn't know that 117 00:04:44,395 --> 00:04:45,645 that path existed at all. 118 00:04:45,745 --> 00:04:49,765 So I'd love to find some way to, to just kind 119 00:04:49,885 --> 00:04:53,445 of like get into classrooms at a early enough place to, 120 00:04:53,785 --> 00:04:56,845 to teach kids that, that it's something that's possible 121 00:04:56,845 --> 00:04:58,045 and that it can be fun, right? 122 00:04:58,045 --> 00:05:00,125 Because I, I think the, another part of it is 123 00:05:00,125 --> 00:05:02,925 that it feels like this daunting thing to get into that, 124 00:05:02,925 --> 00:05:05,765 like programming is just this magic box that, uh, 125 00:05:05,825 --> 00:05:07,085 is difficult to understand. 126 00:05:07,425 --> 00:05:09,365 And I think it's no different than any other skill. 127 00:05:09,385 --> 00:05:11,325 You start small and you build upon those things. 128 00:05:11,545 --> 00:05:14,765 And, um, if we teach it that way to 129 00:05:15,695 --> 00:05:17,485 young black kids, young kids of color, 130 00:05:17,485 --> 00:05:21,045 then I think we'll have more adults of color in technology. 131 00:05:21,705 --> 00:05:23,005 - So, you know, um, I, 132 00:05:23,025 --> 00:05:25,405 and you know, I I think that's the whole point of listening. 133 00:05:25,505 --> 00:05:29,805 So you being here, you being a role model and shouting out, 134 00:05:29,905 --> 00:05:32,485 and we're gonna put a link to your LinkedIn bio 135 00:05:32,705 --> 00:05:35,325 so they can see how your picture and your work 136 00:05:35,385 --> 00:05:36,765 and a shout out to stallion. 137 00:05:37,225 --> 00:05:39,245 But I woke up this morning, um, you know, 138 00:05:39,245 --> 00:05:41,205 I turned on the news like I usually do and, 139 00:05:41,305 --> 00:05:42,805 and for a minute I'm gonna get, you know, 140 00:05:43,915 --> 00:05:45,205 unfortunately sober. 141 00:05:46,225 --> 00:05:49,085 So one of the trends is DEI programs are gonna go away 142 00:05:49,425 --> 00:05:51,725 or might go away or possibly would go away. 143 00:05:51,915 --> 00:05:53,325 Yeah. Um, do you think 144 00:05:53,325 --> 00:05:55,725 that's gonna affect this conversation in any way? 145 00:05:55,785 --> 00:05:57,550 Do you think it's an important conversation? 146 00:05:59,425 --> 00:06:03,605 - Uh, I think it affects this conversation 147 00:06:03,665 --> 00:06:04,885 in certain parts of the country. 148 00:06:05,595 --> 00:06:07,405 It's a disheartening conversation to be having 149 00:06:08,025 --> 00:06:09,605 in 2024, right? 150 00:06:09,705 --> 00:06:13,085 The, the importance of DEII think, I think it's, 151 00:06:13,165 --> 00:06:16,845 I think it's important when people start talk, start trying 152 00:06:16,865 --> 00:06:20,645 to, to dissolve DEI organizations to, to speak up 153 00:06:20,645 --> 00:06:22,685 and push back against that, that thought. 154 00:06:22,905 --> 00:06:26,805 Um, the, the numbers that I've seen show that 155 00:06:27,475 --> 00:06:29,965 there's just so much further to go 156 00:06:30,305 --> 00:06:32,445 before you have the same, I mean, 157 00:06:32,455 --> 00:06:33,725 we're having this conversation right now. 158 00:06:33,725 --> 00:06:35,205 There's so much further to go before you have the same 159 00:06:35,205 --> 00:06:37,085 representation, rep representation in 160 00:06:37,085 --> 00:06:39,005 technology for people of color. 161 00:06:39,545 --> 00:06:41,685 And that's, that's true in most spaces, right? 162 00:06:41,745 --> 00:06:45,725 So the idea that we don't need efforts DEI efforts is, is, 163 00:06:46,795 --> 00:06:49,525 yeah, I can't, I can't think of an, an earnest, honest way 164 00:06:49,525 --> 00:06:51,125 to, to sell that. 165 00:06:51,665 --> 00:06:53,645 - Boy, that was such a diplomatic answer, Michael. 166 00:06:53,645 --> 00:06:56,325 Thank you. I probably would've chosen . 167 00:06:56,465 --> 00:06:59,205 So, so the last question I have for you is pretty personal. 168 00:06:59,665 --> 00:07:02,525 Um, and I, um, of, of course I always say to guess, 169 00:07:02,545 --> 00:07:03,925 you know, you can opt out, right? 170 00:07:04,265 --> 00:07:06,965 You know, we, we have a relationship where I come to, 171 00:07:07,115 --> 00:07:09,245 unfortunately, most of the time in crisis, like, 172 00:07:09,245 --> 00:07:10,445 oh my god, Michael, fix this. 173 00:07:10,555 --> 00:07:12,005 It's the most important thing in the world. 174 00:07:12,145 --> 00:07:14,525 And, and you jump right on and you understand. 175 00:07:14,625 --> 00:07:16,885 And so, you know, I think we have a very good vendor 176 00:07:17,365 --> 00:07:18,445 EE relationship, right? 177 00:07:18,475 --> 00:07:21,245 Yeah. Agreed. But then I comment like, Hey Michael, 178 00:07:21,245 --> 00:07:22,285 would you talk about race? 179 00:07:22,415 --> 00:07:24,605 Would you, would you, I bring out something 180 00:07:24,605 --> 00:07:26,365 that really isn't part of our relationship, right? 181 00:07:26,365 --> 00:07:27,965 But I cherish the fact, 182 00:07:28,025 --> 00:07:29,525 and I was, can't even tell you 183 00:07:29,945 --> 00:07:32,445 how thrilled I was when we got on that first sales call 184 00:07:32,465 --> 00:07:33,685 and I was interviewing, I don't know, 185 00:07:33,685 --> 00:07:34,885 maybe 11 or 12 vendors. 186 00:07:35,785 --> 00:07:39,525 And again, I it wasn't just a race, 187 00:07:39,825 --> 00:07:40,845 it was the way you spoke. 188 00:07:41,025 --> 00:07:42,965 It was the confidence, it was a, you know, 189 00:07:43,085 --> 00:07:44,485 a a multitude of ingredients. 190 00:07:44,985 --> 00:07:47,045 But, but do you think it's inappropriate 191 00:07:47,385 --> 00:07:48,885 to have this kind of conversation? 192 00:07:49,445 --> 00:07:50,965 - I think it depends on the people in the conversation. 193 00:07:51,185 --> 00:07:54,805 Um, I'm almost 40 years old, so, you know, I've, I've, 194 00:07:55,475 --> 00:07:58,725 I've had a lifetime of different conversations about race 195 00:07:58,725 --> 00:08:00,645 with different people who were coming from different places. 196 00:08:00,945 --> 00:08:03,045 And one of the great things about our relationship about 197 00:08:03,045 --> 00:08:05,965 getting to know you for, I mean, the years now, I guess 198 00:08:05,965 --> 00:08:08,725 that we've been working together, um, is that I know 199 00:08:08,725 --> 00:08:12,125 that you are coming from a place of, a place 200 00:08:12,125 --> 00:08:14,005 of like honest curiosity and, 201 00:08:14,505 --> 00:08:16,885 and passion and a loving place. 202 00:08:17,425 --> 00:08:19,205 So I don't find this inappropriate 203 00:08:19,265 --> 00:08:20,485 in our, in our relationship. 204 00:08:20,855 --> 00:08:22,525 There are cer there are people who I wouldn't have these 205 00:08:22,525 --> 00:08:25,885 kinds of conversations with because they wouldn't feel safe 206 00:08:25,885 --> 00:08:28,245 or productive or just like useful 207 00:08:28,305 --> 00:08:29,805 for any, any reason whatsoever. 208 00:08:29,905 --> 00:08:31,645 So I, I'd have to just say 209 00:08:31,645 --> 00:08:33,485 that it depends on the people that are in the conversation. 210 00:08:33,865 --> 00:08:35,525 - You know, Mike, I wanna thank you. 211 00:08:35,625 --> 00:08:36,845 We are creating podcasts 212 00:08:36,845 --> 00:08:38,325 where we invite people into living rooms 213 00:08:38,385 --> 00:08:39,525 to have safe conversations. 214 00:08:40,745 --> 00:08:44,925 And because I truly do believe that we need thousands 215 00:08:44,925 --> 00:08:48,725 of more Michaels, and the only way we get thousands 216 00:08:48,725 --> 00:08:50,885 of more Michaels is for a Michael to speak up. 217 00:08:51,075 --> 00:08:52,075 Yeah. 218 00:08:52,555 --> 00:08:56,045 - Well, I'm very happy that you asked me to, to speak today. 219 00:08:56,115 --> 00:08:58,565 It's, um, yeah, I agree with you. 220 00:08:58,605 --> 00:09:02,765 I think it's important to have people who I, it's important 221 00:09:02,765 --> 00:09:04,405 to see people do the things that you wanna do, 222 00:09:04,705 --> 00:09:05,605 and it's important to hear 223 00:09:05,605 --> 00:09:06,805 those people talk about those things. 224 00:09:06,945 --> 00:09:08,645 So I'm happy that you asked me to speak 225 00:09:09,105 --> 00:09:10,285 - And be successful. 226 00:09:10,665 --> 00:09:15,085 You know, you're a great dad, you know, Well 227 00:09:15,085 --> 00:09:16,725 that's important to me to hear, right? 228 00:09:16,725 --> 00:09:18,445 Yeah. We're not, we're a holistic, 229 00:09:18,555 --> 00:09:22,605 it's not just Michael's a great IT person, the holistic part 230 00:09:22,605 --> 00:09:23,805 of you, the family person, 231 00:09:23,945 --> 00:09:25,805 the caring person, the environment. 232 00:09:26,265 --> 00:09:28,045 So, you know, I know we jumped on today. 233 00:09:28,305 --> 00:09:30,445 Um, it's nearing the end of Black History month, 234 00:09:30,465 --> 00:09:31,525 but I just think this is an 235 00:09:31,685 --> 00:09:32,885 incredibly important conversation. 236 00:09:32,925 --> 00:09:33,965 I wanna continue all year 237 00:09:34,305 --> 00:09:35,525 and I just can't thank you enough 238 00:09:35,525 --> 00:09:37,085 for taking some time out with us this morning. 239 00:09:37,195 --> 00:09:38,405 - Well, absolutely. It's been great. 240 00:09:38,405 --> 00:09:39,885 And again, thank you for having me on. 241 00:09:43,985 --> 00:09:46,165 - Big thank you to Michael and Selan Consulting 242 00:09:46,165 --> 00:09:47,525 for sharing with all of us today. 243 00:09:47,665 --> 00:09:50,085 And please join us on Friday, February 23rd 244 00:09:50,265 --> 00:09:53,285 for our free live webinar titled DEIB, 245 00:09:53,495 --> 00:09:56,605 navigating the Difficult Conversation, hosted by myself, 246 00:09:56,625 --> 00:09:58,405 and facilitated by Senior trainer 247 00:09:58,665 --> 00:10:00,845 and DEIB contributor James Francis. 248 00:10:01,285 --> 00:10:05,205 Registration info is available@bliinfo.com 249 00:10:05,455 --> 00:10:06,805 slash free webinars. 250 00:10:07,335 --> 00:10:09,125 Until next time, everyone take care. 251 00:10:20,455 --> 00:10:22,865 This has been a production of Balancing Life's Issues 252 00:10:22,865 --> 00:10:24,465 with your hosts, Kai Sorenson 253 00:10:24,465 --> 00:10:28,705 and Wendy Wallner, produced by me Kai Rate Lieber Review 254 00:10:28,705 --> 00:10:30,985 and subscribe to the podcast wherever you listen 255 00:10:31,165 --> 00:10:33,385 so you can get brand new episodes as they drop. 256 00:10:33,805 --> 00:10:34,865 Got an idea for the show. 257 00:10:35,315 --> 00:10:38,585 Email me, KI at balancing life's issues.com. 258 00:10:39,345 --> 00:10:40,625 Anything to add? Miles? No.