- It's rare for me to encounter another black person in
technology, be it development or any other space,
and it just feels like a pipeline problem to me.
- Welcome to Balancing Life's Issues, the podcast,
I'm your host Kai, and today we continue the celebration
of Black History Month by sharing the story
of someone we at BLI work with every single day.
- I'm Michael Havis, and I'm a technical project
lead that's Alliant Consulting,
- A company that is vital to the success
of the day-to-Day operations at BLI.
And you wouldn't know it because you'll be listening
to the story, but Michael is black.
And according to a McKinsey
and Company report, black people make up 12%
of the US workforce, but only 8% of employees in tech jobs.
That percentage is even smaller,
further up the corporate ladder.
So as we look to the significance
of black Americans in our shared history this month, we want
to look to people like Michael
who are thriving in the tech industry today,
and who hope to create better avenues for young black people
because as Michael put
- It, I think there's a lot of kids out there who just,
just haven't heard that message, didn't know that
that path existed at all.
- And now I've had the pleasure of working
with Michael a few times, but CEO
of balancing life's issues, Wendy Woolner speaks
to him every single day.
So I'll let her share Michael's story with all of you.
Take it away, Wendy.
- So morning, Michael. - Good morning.
- So, you know, um, it's been interesting
because we're fairly new partners,
but I have so much experience in your, in your space, right?
We're a small business and,
and you know, technology is not my thing.
I'm the people thing, but
yet we've become this technology person.
I've been through so many different vendors and partners,
and then we met you and this light bulb went off
and you immediately got our business model
and just jumped right in.
So first, let me just say thank you.
- Yeah, that's nice to hear.
I'm glad, glad we could instill a confidence in you.
- Well, it's not, you could, it's you specifically
- .
Okay, well thank you. That feels great to hear.
- And if it wasn't enough
that I felt like your knowledge base was so strong,
you know, then there was a particular meeting
where your little 2-year-old daughter popped up on your lap
and I was like, wow, this is perfect.
Like, you totally understand what we stand for. Right?
So you felt comfortable bringing your
daughter into the conversation.
Yeah, but it also occurred to me as we are
so passionate about Black History Month that you know, and,
and I know all of you are listening, so you might not know
or, or you know, you wouldn't know that Michael is a person
of color and
after 20 years, it's the first time
that I've had anybody in the IT world be a person of color.
And I wanted to have a discussion with you about like,
this is, as you know, it's a crisis.
It's on the front page of every paper, you know
what happened in the technology field, and you're there.
So you have the perfect skillset,
you have the compassion in heart,
you're like the neutral bullet blend, , ,
and you're also a person of color.
So I'd like to hear from your perspective,
what do you think is going on?
- It's, it's funny that you say that.
Um, Seline actually has A-A-A-D-E-I committee where we've,
uh, looked into this exact issue.
Um, something that I'm also very passionate about, like
what, why there aren't more people of color,
specifically why there aren't more black people
in the technology space.
Because it's rare for me to
encounter another black person in technology,
be it development or any other space,
and it just feels like a pipeline problem to me.
I didn't have my first programming class until college.
Mm-Hmm. . And like there are now all
of these different places
where you don't need a college degree
to get into technology, right?
You can just be someone who loves computers
or loves creating things.
And if you have the the skills to, to actually do
that, then you, you can get hired.
It's not necessary to have a four year degree.
- I think that's a really big takeaway for listeners.
Like they can't see you, Michael, but they can hear you
and you're inspiring people to say like, wait a minute,
I didn't know this door was actually open to me.
Yeah. Like, this is a possibility for me.
So I think that's takeaway number one.
Like, you know, I know everybody's talking about celebrating
Black History month and, and my, my soapbox has been changed
and we need to see this change.
Like this is a critical change.
We need to have people like you. Yeah.
So that's the first thing.
Is it this is a possibility for people.
- Right? Right. And I think
that's a Yeah, that's a great point.
It's just first just knowing that it's a possibility, right?
It's not something that I knew when I was a kid,
and I think there's a lot of kids out there who just,
just haven't heard that message, didn't know that
that path existed at all.
So I'd love to find some way to, to just kind
of like get into classrooms at a early enough place to,
to teach kids that, that it's something that's possible
and that it can be fun, right?
Because I, I think the, another part of it is
that it feels like this daunting thing to get into that,
like programming is just this magic box that, uh,
is difficult to understand.
And I think it's no different than any other skill.
You start small and you build upon those things.
And, um, if we teach it that way to
young black kids, young kids of color,
then I think we'll have more adults of color in technology.
- So, you know, um, I,
and you know, I I think that's the whole point of listening.
So you being here, you being a role model and shouting out,
and we're gonna put a link to your LinkedIn bio
so they can see how your picture and your work
and a shout out to stallion.
But I woke up this morning, um, you know,
I turned on the news like I usually do and,
and for a minute I'm gonna get, you know,
unfortunately sober.
So one of the trends is DEI programs are gonna go away
or might go away or possibly would go away.
Yeah. Um, do you think
that's gonna affect this conversation in any way?
Do you think it's an important conversation?
- Uh, I think it affects this conversation
in certain parts of the country.
It's a disheartening conversation to be having
in 2024, right?
The, the importance of DEII think, I think it's,
I think it's important when people start talk, start trying
to, to dissolve DEI organizations to, to speak up
and push back against that, that thought.
Um, the, the numbers that I've seen show that
there's just so much further to go
before you have the same, I mean,
we're having this conversation right now.
There's so much further to go before you have the same
representation, rep representation in
technology for people of color.
And that's, that's true in most spaces, right?
So the idea that we don't need efforts DEI efforts is, is,
yeah, I can't, I can't think of an, an earnest, honest way
to, to sell that.
- Boy, that was such a diplomatic answer, Michael.
Thank you. I probably would've chosen .
So, so the last question I have for you is pretty personal.
Um, and I, um, of, of course I always say to guess,
you know, you can opt out, right?
You know, we, we have a relationship where I come to,
unfortunately, most of the time in crisis, like,
oh my god, Michael, fix this.
It's the most important thing in the world.
And, and you jump right on and you understand.
And so, you know, I think we have a very good vendor
EE relationship, right?
Yeah. Agreed. But then I comment like, Hey Michael,
would you talk about race?
Would you, would you, I bring out something
that really isn't part of our relationship, right?
But I cherish the fact,
and I was, can't even tell you
how thrilled I was when we got on that first sales call
and I was interviewing, I don't know,
maybe 11 or 12 vendors.
And again, I it wasn't just a race,
it was the way you spoke.
It was the confidence, it was a, you know,
a a multitude of ingredients.
But, but do you think it's inappropriate
to have this kind of conversation?
- I think it depends on the people in the conversation.
Um, I'm almost 40 years old, so, you know, I've, I've,
I've had a lifetime of different conversations about race
with different people who were coming from different places.
And one of the great things about our relationship about
getting to know you for, I mean, the years now, I guess
that we've been working together, um, is that I know
that you are coming from a place of, a place
of like honest curiosity and,
and passion and a loving place.
So I don't find this inappropriate
in our, in our relationship.
There are cer there are people who I wouldn't have these
kinds of conversations with because they wouldn't feel safe
or productive or just like useful
for any, any reason whatsoever.
So I, I'd have to just say
that it depends on the people that are in the conversation.
- You know, Mike, I wanna thank you.
We are creating podcasts
where we invite people into living rooms
to have safe conversations.
And because I truly do believe that we need thousands
of more Michaels, and the only way we get thousands
of more Michaels is for a Michael to speak up.
Yeah.
- Well, I'm very happy that you asked me to, to speak today.
It's, um, yeah, I agree with you.
I think it's important to have people who I, it's important
to see people do the things that you wanna do,
and it's important to hear
those people talk about those things.
So I'm happy that you asked me to speak
- And be successful.
You know, you're a great dad, you know, Well
that's important to me to hear, right?
Yeah. We're not, we're a holistic,
it's not just Michael's a great IT person, the holistic part
of you, the family person,
the caring person, the environment.
So, you know, I know we jumped on today.
Um, it's nearing the end of Black History month,
but I just think this is an
incredibly important conversation.
I wanna continue all year
and I just can't thank you enough
for taking some time out with us this morning.
- Well, absolutely. It's been great.
And again, thank you for having me on.
- Big thank you to Michael and Selan Consulting
for sharing with all of us today.
And please join us on Friday, February 23rd
for our free live webinar titled DEIB,
navigating the Difficult Conversation, hosted by myself,
and facilitated by Senior trainer
and DEIB contributor James Francis.
Registration info is available@bliinfo.com
slash free webinars.
Until next time, everyone take care.
This has been a production of Balancing Life's Issues
with your hosts, Kai Sorenson
and Wendy Wallner, produced by me Kai Rate Lieber Review
and subscribe to the podcast wherever you listen
so you can get brand new episodes as they drop.
Got an idea for the show.
Email me, KI at balancing life's issues.com.
Anything to add? Miles? No.