- Don't be afraid to be connecting with people.
It may be stopping by.
It may be, um, making some banana bread
and sending it over to your neighbor.
Connect with people.
- Welcome to Balancing Life's issues, the podcast.
I'm your host, Kai, and I'm here with CEO of BLI.
Wendy Wollner. How are you doing today?
- I'm good. Thanks, Kai. Nice to chat with you.
- Yeah, as always. Um, you know, coming off some,
some pretty anxious times.
I had, I kind of wanted to run a by you real quick,
so I think I need some advice.
We flew to Nebraska to see family, uh,
took our now five month old with us.
And the amount of anxiety I was feeling going into
that trip, um, I mean, it's, it's already challenging
to go home, you know, for an extended period of time.
Although I love my family, I
think that's challenging for anybody.
But bring our infant with us.
The scenarios going through my head on
what could possibly go wrong from turbulence
that would've make me drop my baby to a screaming child
for three hours left me in.
I mean, I don't wanna use the word lightly,
but it felt like close to a panic attack.
Um, and I, I really had to, I really had to dig deep.
Um, and fortunately Miles was perfect.
flying there and back and it's like, I don't know.
You're a mom. Like, what? How, how do you navigate that?
- Well, first of all, let's just validate something, right.
The last time you were in Nebraska, you weren't a father.
- No, I wasn't .
We were telling, we were telling people last Christmas was
when we were back last, that totally
- Different.
Right? Right. Even a father to be,
even a mother to be, right?
Mm-Hmm. , there's a whole different thing.
So your life changed so dramatically
that every single thing you could think of was
all the different roles, was things you couldn't possibly
predict because you haven't been a father before.
Right. And by the way, the best part about being a father,
if you choose to have another child,
it's totally different again. So you gotta
- . Right.
- But you know, what I think is so interesting about it is
what you're talking about is everything we talk about here
is living in uncertain times.
Mm-Hmm. , that's one
of the best things about being a parent, right?
Every day you think I got it. I know it. I'm good.
- Yeah. And speaking of, you know,
we were on an important web call, uh, just just an hour ago,
and who called daycare?
Yep. Gotta pick that call up now. Right?
That's not a, oh, there's gonna leave me
a voicemail about billing.
That's like something's wrong. Um,
and Miles is struggling in the mornings over there.
It's a new environment. He's not eating.
So there's this whole other level Right.
That we're kind of navigating.
Um, and fortunately he's fine and they're wonderful.
Um, and I just got the notification
'cause I, as dad in 2023, there's an app
and I get pinged when he finishes three ounces of milk.
So now I feel better. Right.
- And there's pros and cons to that. Sure.
You know, there, that whole idea, I,
I think what's really important is supporting the idea
that we are gonna be anxious.
And, you know, there's that running joke about my
31-year-old, um,
pinging me from the plane saying he's absolutely never,
ever gonna make his connection
and he's having a total panic attack on the flight.
And I thought, it's no different if they're four months
or 10 months or 31 years old.
Right. That love and at and,
and feeling about wanting to protect them.
Mm-Hmm. . Um, and
you know, Kai, this is pretty funny.
I don't know if you know this, but I grew up
with my mom, so lucky to have her.
Yes. My grandmother. Mm-Hmm.
, my great-grandmother
and my great-great-grandmother.
And I remember my great-grandmother,
I was 10 years old when she passed away saying,
get the babies and bring them here.
And she was talking about my
grandmother and my great-grandmother.
Oh my gosh. And I was like, what are you doing, ?
So I think the lesson to learn is to,
to embrace anxiety for the rest of your life.
- Yeah. Yeah. Um, to
- Really make it friends and just make, not take it lightly,
but to understand that it is part of it so it doesn't get
to the place of the panic attack. Right.
- But - Literally to embrace, like,
I'm gonna be anxious when I go out to dinner,
when I leave him, when I go to daycare, when I don't go
to daycare, when when it snows, when it rains.
It is literally part of this new world Yeah.
Of how do I put my jacket on and how do I wear the anxiety?
Then you can number it. Right, right.
Is it a one anxiety or is it a like 59? And
- You know, that that's like, it's a great segue into,
you know, who we're talking to today
because, you know, living an uncomfortable feeling,
having a difficult conversation.
Um, especially in this world we live in,
where it seems like every time you turn on the
news, it couldn't get any worse.
Yeah. But that, it seems like
that hole just keeps getting dug deeper.
Um, so tell us a little bit about,
about the guests you're gonna be speaking to.
- You know, one of the best parts about my job is I get
to hear are such amazing from such amazing experts.
Um, and, and honestly, I'm been doing that for 30 years,
but once in a blue moon, I get to listen to someone who is
so knowledgeable and so kind and so compassionate
and so helpful that it changes your life.
And when I went into the session, um,
it was a session about trauma
and Megan was giving the speech
and I was doing what I normally do.
I'm doing the laptop, and I'm, I'm like,
- Mm-Hmm. Multitasking
- And like half listening.
'cause I've taken how many trauma classes and,
and she told the immediate story about her response
and her feelings to the buffalo, uh, supermarket shooting.
And I was riveted
and my hand was up the entire time about
learning about responses to trauma, to anxiety.
Um, and I'm so grateful that she had a lot
of patience for all my questions.
And I'm even more grateful that she's decided
to spend a few minutes with us today.
- Yeah, I mean, that, that tells you everything you know,
about how she felt about your questions, she decided
to come on the podcast with you.
So yeah, really, really looking forward to the interview.
Um, so, you know, listeners, enjoy, enjoy the conversation
and please, uh, send us comments.
We love to hear your feedback on other kinds
of conversations, uh, that we can be having.
So enjoy the conversation with Megan Andrews.
- Hey Megan, how are you today?
Thank you so much for dropping by.
It's like you're in my living room.
Really appreciate chatting with you. How are you? I know,
- I love it.
Uh, I, you know, uh, technology's done wonderful things
and it's, uh, allowed us to connect, um, across,
across the air and miles and miles away.
But, um, yeah, I'm thrilled to be here.
Thank you for inviting me.
- Yeah. So, you know, the world doesn't know
how amazing you are, so would you take a minute
and just introduce yourself?
And I had the pleasure of listening to, to you speak,
and it was really life changing.
So, Meg, will you tell me a little bit about the work
you're, uh, that you're doing?
- Yeah. Um, my name is Megan Andrews.
I'm a licensed clinical social worker, um,
by training and by education.
Uh, my experience includes, uh, over 30 years of experience
as a clinician in the community, as well as, uh,
as an educator, as I, uh, work as a, uh,
faculty member over at an adjunct faculty member at the
university, uh, school of social work, uh,
where I was introduced to the, uh, concept
of trauma-informed, uh, work
and trauma-informed counseling, um,
and really in the employee assistance business have brought
that to companies, uh, bringing that concept,
those guide rails, um, you know,
that help support decision making.
It's trauma-informed.
- And you know, Megan, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm so anxious
to get started, you know, I'm famous for that interruption,
but, you know, um, uh, and I hate asking this question,
but you know, you have all this wealth of experience
and then you have the buffalo shooting.
So can you describe for, for us listening where you were,
how that affected you and kind of that idea of theory
and reality mushing together?
- Yeah, I mean, it was surreal, honestly.
Um, it's, you know, it's been, uh, just over,
just about a year, a little over a year and a half.
Um, and we were, uh, kind of faced with the unthinkable,
um, a shooter, um, uh, drove to our community intentionally,
um, to target, uh, a a part of our community, um,
that is alive
and vibrant, the grocery store serves, um, people of color.
And, um, I was responding as a person, uh,
who supports the community
and lots of organizations that were on site that day,
including the police department, fire department,
our transportation department,
and the like, uh, including human service agencies
that serve that community.
And, uh, we were on site providing immediate support,
crisis support, um, for, uh,
for anybody in need at that moment.
Um, as well as the ongoing months after.
Um, and really that's what kind of brought to light, um,
the need for us to understand
that not everybody was impacted by that.
Um, by that experience in our community in the same way,
way, um, people with different backgrounds
and different experiences, um, people with different colors
of skin were impacted differently, um, based on the fact
that they were targeted.
Um, and, uh,
it had a different traumatic effect, um, because of that.
- And so, you know, Megan, it's now we're a few months,
years later, and the news just comes fast and furious.
So I'm gonna ask you a really hard one. Okay.
My morning started with a client.
I'm sure you're familiar with this client who says,
there's nothing that can help me feel positive.
Again, I, I don't tell me to go out
and take a breath, don't tell me
to eat healthy, to sleep better.
I've done all that. I've tried all that,
and I turning on the news and I, I see horrific things.
I can't get access to the therapist to help me change,
but yet I gotta pick up my kids.
I gotta take care of my older mother.
So I'm dumping it all in one question for you to know,
how do we get to a hopeful, optimistic place?
Can you give me some ideas?
- Yeah. I think what you're talking about is so important,
Wendy, in that, um, we can't self-care our way out
of systemic challenges.
Um, we can't train our way out of systemic challenges,
and we have to look at it from multiple points of view.
And I do think that having that conversation with folks
lets them know that it's not all on their shoulders.
Um, it's not all on them.
That's much of this is the system around them.
Much of this is what, uh, that, that we need to, um,
stop beating people over the head, um,
and telling them to take a walk
and take a bubble bath and they'll all feel better.
Um, we can't keep doing that.
- You know, it's interesting because, you know, Megan,
I I use this as an example.
Like when I met you in the times I've talked to,
I just feel better.
Like, so describe to me why, just having a conversation,
just, just talking, like why does that make me feel better?
I, I I don't really understand.
Why do I feel better after I talk to Megan?
- It's such a great question because I think that's the,
you know, the idea that somehow therapy, conversations,
counseling is somehow magical.
Um, it isn't magic in the, in, in, in the sense
that it's going to make things all better.
Um, and that there isn't, uh, effort involved.
Uh, and it's really about being willing
to take a look at things from a different perspective.
It's being willing to acknowledge
and validate that my experience
and the reason I'm feeling this way makes sense.
Um, that maybe it's the stuff
that's coming at me that doesn't make sense.
Um, and, and I may not have full control over that,
but I do have control over my response, my reactions,
where I go, where I don't go, who I talk
to, who I don't talk to.
And recognizing that our nervous
systems are a big part of this.
Um, where, where do we find
that our nervous systems are more neutral or more calm?
Um, why is that digging in
and finding out, like, why when I talk to that person,
I feel a sense of calm?
Am I shifting my perspective?
Um, am I seeing things bigger than myself?
Um, I often ask people, you know, in session to kind
of close their eyes and,
and take that elevated view, kind
of put yourself up on a satellite, um, put yourself up there
and looking down at the, at the people in your circle
and then beyond in your community,
and then beyond in your city, your state,
your country, and in the world.
We need to have that perspective shift.
And who does that for us? Um, who helps us find that?
And, and I, not just who,
but what, you know, what helps us find that?
- You know, it's so interesting
because it's, it's a, what you're describing, um, it's,
it sounds hard in some ways,
but if we make it simple, right?
If we break it down and really just make it simple,
you know, it's asking someone how they are
and allowing them to answer real is life changing?
- Yeah. And not keep walking and, hi, how are you?
And keep walking. I've done it myself. I catch myself.
Um, but really just sitting in, taking,
looking at people in the eye, and,
and I think this is one of the things that concerns me, is
that we are, are, are turning, um, counseling
and therapy into a transactional, um, experience.
And it is not, it is relational.
Um, how we relate to one another.
And we know how this has affected us post pandemic.
Uh, we know that that disconnect and,
and that this is great, you know,
but a lot of it is transactional, you know,
but we have to make it interactional.
We have to make it relational.
And that requires us to sit down
and be in each other's energy, um,
be in each other's eyesight, um,
look at each other in the eye and say, I, and,
and the reality is, our nervous systems look
to one another for calming
- Soothing, right.
That's self soothing.
You know, it's so, it's so interesting me.
'cause oh, my son will probably just throw something at me
if you're telling this, but he's got this blanket from when
he was like super young, like five or six years old.
I mean, you can imagine he's 31 now, right? My youngest.
And this blanket brings him this sense of soothing.
And I think to myself, so what do we have?
And you know, it's interesting
because some of the things like, you know,
I've been cleaning lately and I've been donating a ton.
And I mean, can you describe like, why does
that make me feel like I'm like, yes, there's this sense
of like, I ran a marathon.
I didn't run a marathon, but I did clean out my closet
and donate a ton of things.
How come that makes me feel so awesome? Because
- It frees you up.
- So - True. It, it reduces the
burden that you're carrying.
Um, we, we put things in our sphere.
We put people in our sphere
and we put stuff in our sphere thinking it's going to help,
thinking it's going to, uh, provide us some, um,
you know, some support and some guidance.
You know, I I, I'm, I'm struck by even just thinking about,
um, Chandler binging, um, you know, Matthew Perry.
Um, he, he said it, I mean,
I watched his interviews, I've read his book.
I even listened to it 'cause it was so incredibly, um,
powerful to hear his voice.
But the reality is, what we have in that stuff in our sphere
isn't going to provide us that ki that support and guidance
and, and just that calm, um, that, that people are going
to be bring to us.
And that's why we think we need this.
But now when we unburden ourselves
and say, okay, I actually don't need all this stuff.
I need things to be reasonable
and organized so I can feel like I can accomplish
what I need to in the day, that that space between
what I need to accomplish
and my perceived, um, idea that I can achieve that is that
that gap is small.
Um, and the smaller that gap is, the less stressed we are,
the less our, our nervous systems on fire.
Uh, when that gap is big
and when there's something to do today,
and I feel like I don't have the capacity to do it, um,
that's where the anxiety sits.
Um, and, and I, yeah, I gotta do it.
- I love it. And Megan, you just, you just named the podcast
so you jumped on today.
Um, I wanna thank you. I know what I'm gonna name this.
It's unburdened. That's what we need to do.
Um, and um,
and I think one of the last things
that we really wanna touch upon,
and again, um, my gratitude
for you being here is maybe I'm doing okay, right?
I'm, I, I, I've, I've, I've heard,
but I, my loved one at home, or my boss
or my colleague, they're in that really deep place
where they're feeling that overwhelmed.
What, what can I do to help them and support them
because I'm actually okay,
but they might be bringing me down a little bit.
- The first tip is connect with them for real. Yep.
And you know what, for real means, you know what?
For real roommates, um, sometimes it's a text message.
Um, sometimes it's a pick up the phone.
Don't be afraid to be connecting with people.
Um, it may be stopping by.
It may be, um, making some banana bread
and sending it over to your neighbor.
Um, connect with people.
- You know what, Megan, I gotta interrupt here
and tell you something really interesting.
Yeah. When my ex-husband passed away,
we were recently divorced, right?
I was running the company, a thousand trainers.
How many do you think sent me a condolence note?
How many do you think reached
out? Like you said, for real, what
- Do you think?
I would hope, what do I hope , I would hope half
- Two.
- Wow. - And the answer I got from them was
that old philosophy of I didn't wanna upset you more.
So I, I I was afraid.
I don't wanna ask how you're doing
because you know, whoa, you were in Buffalo when it
happened, so let me not upset you more, Megan.
Right? So talk to me about
- That's a, it's a great point.
'cause I think that's what we are.
We think, oh, someone else has it.
I don't wanna bother them.
I don't wanna, um, take their time.
I don't want to, what you just said, upset them more.
Um, when in reality, connection, relationship
and being, being real with people, um, is, is vital
to our sustainability as a population, um,
that we cannot take that out of.
We can't take the humanity out of
what we're doing, um, at all.
I, I mean, I I'm not afraid of ai,
- You know, it's such a set.
I, I, I'm right there with you. Right? It's exciting.
You know, it's interesting. It's one
of the tips I have taking care
of my mother is I always have a trip planned for.
I just, it's always on the calendar.
We've got January 5th, we're going now, will we go right?
Do I think we'll go? But man, it's there. Yeah.
And we talk about it and we may shop for it.
And we plan for it
because that's the connection I know my mom loves.
Yeah. Yeah. And am I scared that she's 88?
Yeah. Stuff could happen.
- But the research says
that planning a vacation is more calming Yep.
Than going on one. So true. And I would agree with that.
. I love planning a vacation,
- So I can't thank you enough for jumping on today,
beginning this conversation of
how do we unburden ourselves and our loved ones.
Um, it's not just that you have such an amazing wealth
of educational background, but you've lived it.
Um, and you're always willing to share.
So thank you so much for being part of our program today.
- Always happy to talk with you, Wendy, um, anytime
you take care of yourself for real .
- For real, - For real.
- This has been a production of balancing life's issues
with your hosts, Kai Sorenson
and Wendy Wallner, produced by me Kai Rate.
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Anything to add? Miles? No.