.
Welcome to Balancing Life's Issues, the podcast. My name is Kai, your host,
and I'm here with CEO Wendy Wallner. How are you today? Good.
I'm excited to, uh, have story time Kai. It's been a little bit of a while.
Yeah. Well, you know, I'm, I'm coming off of, uh,
some parental leave and I've just been navigating life with a four and a half
month old. Yeah. Starting part-time daycare next week. So emotionally,
we're preparing ourselves, but also logistically, there has to be enough milk.
Uh, we're gonna be able to get back to like a full day of work, which is what,
what a notion, . Yeah. And honestly, you know, we wanna,
not that I don't love him being around every minute, every day,
but I think the break's gonna be nice for us.
Little healthy. And, you know,
it really ties into our conversation today because one of the things that does
drive me, or my passion is,
are we creating the best world for this next generation? Right.
When we talk about, you know, your son and, and, and, and,
and so many other people, my employees that you know, their families, I'm,
I'm thinking about are we doing the very best job?
So I thought we would start with a story of a job that I had that not a lot of
people know. Would you like to, would you like to hear that story?
Absolutely. Fire away.
So let's set the time. It's, um, 1979. Wow.
And I know long time ago, dating myself here. And, um,
I think you've heard me talk about the fact that my parents were not born in
this country.
So I was brought up with this idea of fleeing and refugee.
And I can tell you that as a kid,
when you would go out to dinner and half your family would speak German and the
other half Italian and then English. It's embarrassing. Right. Like a kid.
Right. You don't want anyone looking at you. Remember, when you're a kid,
don't look at me.
Absolutely. Yes. .
Um, but deep down,
I was always sort of interested in this idea of what happened that they had to
leave from one day to the next.
And so one of my very first jobs was at the Anti-Defamation League.
They really step up to the plate during these time rise in antisemitism.
And so I just want you to think a minute, Kai.
'cause this is before the internet. Are you there? Uh.
I remember a time before the internet, but it was,
it was a small part of my life.
Okay. So when you wanted to do something, you wanted to know something,
what did you have to do?
Oh, man. I had to go to a library, um, find an answer. Um,
hopefully a friend knew. Yeah.
And so my job, I would take the train, go to Manhattan, sit in a,
in a huge library like you just said.
And I had a table with every paper that you can imagine across
America, you know, the New York Times, the Los Angeles, the Baltimore,
all the big cities. And they would put them on my desk.
And my job was a hate crime news clipper. So what do you think that meant?
What do you think I did for eight hours?
You'd have to read maybe the crime part of a newspaper and
find anything related to a hate crime and clip it out like literally with
scissors. Clip it out. Yeah.
And I created boxes and boxes and found that very often
the article would be three lines. It would be hidden, but it would be there.
And if I did my job well, I learned how many hate crimes there were.
And some were very small. One-on-one, some were very large,
many on many, um, and everything in between. And it really,
it fueled me to realize the presence of hate.
And it got me interested in what can we do about it. Um, and so I,
I went to my next job, um, and,
and really shout out to my parents because they let me leave high school back
then. No cell phones. Right. I go to Washington . Um,
president Carter at the time had set up a president's commission on the
Holocaust. You may know it now.
Have you ever been outta Washington and been to the, um,
Holocaust Memorial Museum? You know.
Uh, we were,
we got Mary Washington dc Lisa's mom from DC so we're there all the time.
But that is on my list to do. I've seen many other memorials,
but I know the Holocaust Museum is, is definitely one that needs to be seen.
And interesting enough, it's one of the most popular, um, most visited, um,
museums in the world, which, which I'm happy about. And I, I was, again,
lucky enough to learn from a different perspective.
So one of the missions of the Holocaust Museum was to show
that all of the people that were targeted. So, so let's just, let's play a game.
And, and Kai, you and I did not rehearse this, so Nope. It's not really fair.
Just the audience should know. He has no idea what I'm asking.
But what were some of the groups that were targeted? Like what,
what other groups and the Jews did Taylor target during World Wari?
Um, uh, those with special needs or physical abilities, is that correct? Yep.
Um, I don't know if race was,
were tar any, you.
Can't also say, but you can hear me. You're nodding.
I'm nodding. Okay. So every anybody who was an Aryan was targeted.
Yep. So the blonde eye, which is of course ironic as Hitler was not.
Brown. Right. I do know that.
Yeah. Right. So what else?
Um, well, I think anything that's not Aryan kind of covers my bases, right? No,
not really. Not necessarily. No.
So other.
Groups, um, well, I know there's an antiquated term gypsy.
Okay. The travelers. Yep.
Um.
So that definitely didn't fit in his group.
So there's a whole section about the hatred against that population. Sure.
And any other, I mean, there's so many more,
but let's just go for one more that sometimes is forgotten about. Um.
Well, I guess maybe the L-G-B-T-Q community. Yep.
Yep. Of course, at that time when it started, it wasn't quite as sophisticated.
We didn't know as much as we do today. But, so the gay lesbian,
which of course now is a much larger popul.
Yeah. And, you know, as you ask me that question, I'm thinking in my head,
who are, um,
groups of people who are disenfranchised or often targeted or persecuted.
And, you know, what's what I was kind of hoping you would say, what's.
That?
I was hoping that you might say you weren't sure.
Oh, instead of going to find an answer that I didn't know I could have said.
Yeah.
That's not.
What I was hoping. Okay. So that's maybe, okay.
We're kind of peeling back some layers here. Yeah. I don't know.
I was hoping, I was hoping that,
because I think one of the things that I've learned is that incredible
sophistication to say, I don't know, but maybe I'm willing to learn. Yeah. And,
um, and you know, we, you know, I'm moving forward to today. Um, we had,
we had a pretty, I think, exciting day at work that it was very validating.
So I'll end with that story, Kai. So ask me, what was so validating today?
So what was so validating about today?
So we, we were working with a client who was pretty,
pretty scared to do a class about the world today.
'cause there's so many horrific things, right? We have Right.
So many wars and so much civil unrest, and we have definite financial unrest,
and we could list could go on and on. So at the end of the day,
she was pretty confident that about 10 people would sign up. So we sent out our,
our webinar information. The room holds 999 people.
How many people do you think signed up in 24 minutes?
What was the topic specifically?
I would say it's really discussing living in today's world.
So living in uncertain times. Yeah. Um, in 24 minutes.
24 Minutes, I'm.
Gonna go.
6 75, 999.
Sold out, man, if only my band could do that. Yep. On a regular basis. Yep.
.
We had to set up a second room, which is quickly going.
So what do you, why do you think that was?
I love the idea that we are open to this discussion. Yeah. So first, I,
I always wanna thank everyone who's listening,
everyone who's sending us comments and, and continuing the discussion.
Thank you. We're grateful and honored to have you here. Um, because I,
I do think I had the ability to sit and cut and look and read
the story after story after story after story. And, you know,
I interviewed my kids before, before this podcast, and I said,
did I do anything Right? Um, anything. Right.
When it comes to teaching you about the difficulties of growing up with the
world with hate. Yeah. Right. I mean,
I was never allowed to wear a Jewish star growing up. Mm-Hmm. .
And my mother would still be uncomfortable today. Right. It would,
it would make her very uneasy. Um, and outta respect to her fear,
I don't Mm-Hmm. . Um,
but I think what's interesting is one of the things that actually my youngest
son, I can always quote because he's, he's sort of clever this way, is,
you know, in, in, in openness to have a discussion, um,
and to sit and say, wow, I didn't know that. And help me understand that.
So I don't use this word anymore.
I use that word because the only way we root cause hate is to understand where
it comes from. Right?
Right. And it makes me think of, you know, this moment in time, right?
How am I processing what's happening in the world, um, given what's going on in,
in U Ukraine given, on what's going on in Israel and Palestine? And it, it,
it,
I remark on the political injustice movements like Black Lives Matter,
where I knew something massive was happening
structurally, like to us as a society. And I,
I had to find the humility to Yeah.
To ask questions that made me uncomfortable.
And fortunately at that time, you know, obviously we, we were, you know,
in lockdown. So we were out, I was doing a weekly zoom with my, with my friends,
with my band mates. And it was, it was,
it was a situation where every week we could openly say things that we
would in other circles would feel uncomfortable, or maybe we would, um,
be laughed at or, or ridiculed.
But instead it was a very vulnerable space where I was able to ask questions and
I learned so much about,
about myself and about their experiences with what was going on.
And to your point of, of being able to confront something head on. Yeah. And,
and not shy away from, from difficult conversations because,
so you sat in a library clipping articles to today I just
typed antisemitism into Spotify and
here's 50 podcasts show up. Okay. So do a little bit of research and Okay,
what's this podcast like? Like what are the angles? So I listen to this one,
like the daily, like your New York Times, you know, that point of view.
And then there's another one that's more of like a conservative point of view.
And, you know, I,
I'm really encouraged and excited by what,
what you're bringing to the table today. 'cause um, you know,
tell us a little more about who we're gonna be speaking to.
Yeah. So our, our our, our second part of this conversation,
and hopefully our third and fourth is going to be about learning.
That is what I believe. Mm-Hmm. ,
that's what all of our podcasts have a lesson about. What do I need to learn?
You know, not all Jews eat the same foods and dress the same and look the same.
And it's super confusing. And, and I understand that. And, and then when it's,
we tend to fall into the world of, well, I won't say anything.
And then we become ignorant and ignorance can become antisemitism and hatred and
it gets all mixed up. And so we're gonna get a chance to meet a, a, a,
a wonderful friend, a mentor. Um, gosh, that's a,
a you remember we did a podcast. Let's go back and,
and shout out Rainn Anderson. Mm-Hmm. ,
who taught us the North Star. The North Star, yeah. Um, and Rabbi Jake,
who you're gonna meet in a few minutes,
has always been sort of my touch point or my North star.
So she's gonna jump on here because I do think at the cornerstone this
time is for you, your motivation, of course is your,
your little new one. And my motivation is the world. I don't know,
is that too lofty? Am I allowed to say that? Uh, listen.
Um, something I learned about you very quickly, uh, is your tenacity,
your ambition, uh, your fearlessness. So no, I don't think using the term world,
uh, that definitely fits.
. It's pretty funny. 'cause yesterday, I think, you know, I, I, I'm fine,
but I, I, I was sick and I needed some stuff done.
And there was this amazing nurse who was, um, taking care of me.
And she happened to be a person of color. And we were only together, um,
for a few minutes.
But we ended up having this really incredible conversation about being a person
of color today in the healthcare industry. And she's like,
nobody ever talks about this stuff. I'm like, that's what I wanna do. We,
we really want to. So we're gonna, um, we're gonna take,
take a few minute break and relax and re-engage. And, and I,
I want you to think about the questions like what would it,
what would you wanna know, um,
about maybe being Jewish or fill in the blank or about why the hatred is the way
it is or where it's coming from. Um,
so let's take a few minutes and really ponder some questions. Kai.
Absolutely will do. And, and no joke, I,
I appreciate a few minutes 'cause I literally just found puke on my shirt from
Miles. So I'm gonna go clean that off and we'll.
What, what a great ending.
Get back, we'll hop back in with the interview in a second. Perfect.
Let me tell you about one of the things that I've learned about talking with
people who aren't Jewish about antisemitism. It's,
it's a very misunderstood hatred.
And the best way, I think,
to convey to people what it's about is to tell stories.
So I'm gonna tell you a couple of stories of antisemitism from before I became
Jewish and before I even knew enough to label what I heard as
antisemitic. So I grew up in a, in a Christian family,
um, German origin. And one of the, uh,
things that we always had a family joke we had was that my parents and
grandparents were very, uh, cheap. So they, they would park,
if they were going to an event,
they would park 20 blocks away for free rather than pay,
you know, two bucks to park, park closer to the venue. And it was often said,
you know, we must have had some Jewish,
we had some Jews right in our background. When I heard it,
I didn't understand what that meant. Only later did I understand what it meant.
And then, um, when I was in ninth grade,
I lived for a year with an uncle and aunt. And the aunt was, uh, also, you know,
fundamentalist Christian. And I was just learning about the Holocaust.
And I came to her and I said, I'm so disturbed by what I am learning.
And she said, well, that's always the way.
The Jews are a stiff-necked people. You know, like,
we brought it on ourselves.
And I didn't only realize later that she got that right from the Hebrew Bible.
Right. There's a lot,
there's a lot of stuff that can be used against Jews found in our own Bible.
So, you know,
I I think the first step is to kind of tell people, you know,
your own experiences of anti-Semitism living out West before I came here.
People use the phrase, uh, are you gonna jo me down? Mm-Hmm. .
Yeah. You don't hear that as much out here. Uh,
but we had a gathering of about 80 people at Temple Israel Sunday evening,
an interfaith gathering to talk about antisemitism planned long before the war
broke out. And a lot of the people who,
about half the people there are, are not Jewish.
They had no idea that people would get beaten up. You know,
people in the room had been beaten up for being Jewish.
And so telling stories is a way to kind of gain
understanding. Well.
Well, I hear what I hear you saying is we have to share the stories,
which is sometimes hard, right? Like, I mean, look, when I was at Syracuse,
I was teaching social studies and my master teacher said, well,
we rip out the Holocaust 'cause there's no Jews in the class.
And he literally took the book Rabbi and he ripped it out. And he said,
we don't teach what's not relevant to us. And I was like, well,
how will we ever learn this? So we have to share our horror stories,
which are hard. It's hard to do that.
It, it's very hard. But otherwise it,
it's such a antisemitism is so difficult to understand because un unlike a,
a hatred like racism, right?
That's kind of like we're talking about inferior people easily
identified because of the color of their skin. Mm-Hmm. Antisemitism, you know,
Jews are not as readily identified because many of us come from European
backgrounds and it's more like, um, I think Barry Weiss called it punching up,
right? These are Jews are powerful, they're con in control of everything.
So how can we be vulnerable, you know, if we are powerful?
Does anybody not believe your stories?
If you ever had someone not believe your story.
Uh, about, uh, no. Actually, once people hear.
Interesting, they.
Obviously know that wouldn't happen.
So that's firing then to say it works. Yeah, it works. It works. Okay.
Tip number one, tell the story.
Well, and, and as someone who's not Jewish, I mean, my wife is, you know,
I've kind of come into it in a sense. Um, it does,
growing up it felt like a not American problem. Antisemitism, right?
Like it's a European thing. Um, it, it doesn't really exist here.
And it, it couldn't be farther from the truth.
Kai's got the Nebraska roots going on there too.
Nebraska Lutheran.
Roots Lutheran is my background too, growing up. Yeah.
Which is what I, I know you come from a Lutheran background. Yeah.
Tell the story. I had a call from a,
a longtime friend of mine who's also a pastor, and he,
like I am, you know, it's concerned about the loss of life in Gaza.
And he's, he said, I don't know what to say. I said something.
And then somebody said, I was anti-Semitic for saying that,
and help me understand. Uh, and, and I said, well, this is,
I tried to explain to him how people might hear what, what, what he is saying.
But I think it's also so important not to rush to judgment. Mm-Hmm.
about people. He really, he truly was trying to wrestle with.
You know, he condemned what happened on October 7th,
and at the same time he's worried for the innocent people in,
in Gaza who are being affected. And so I said, you know, maybe we don't rush to,
maybe it's okay to say we hold both truths in our heart that what happened on
October 7th was evil.
Think about what we've been through with George Floyd, the police officers,
the horrific, I mean, that,
that goes so much bigger than what you said the tip two about I need to learn
more. And, you know, clearly that's our passion.
That's why I'm so grateful for you being here today, is just help us learn more.
Yeah. I need to know more. Right. I need to understand more. Right. You know,
I need to look it on a map. I need to understand more go to a class. Right.
Exactly. And.
So this minister invited me to come and speak to, uh, his,
he teaches a big class and he asked me to come and speak to them about.
But I, I have a hard question for you. You read, okay.
How do you think you became an R and your reputation and your persona is
so inclusive?
What is the secret sauce that you learned that people feel so welcome?
I think because I know what it feels to be.
I know what it feels like to be an outsider. Right. I'm, I'm not,
I don't fully fit. I mean, I've always, I,
I don't know if you're there when I gave that sermon about being a shiksa,
easily identified as somebody who wasn't born Mm-Hmm. Jewish. Um,
and I also really resonate with the,
that strain in our tradition that says that we are all,
we're all the same humanity. Right. And, um,
I, I work against it like feeling like we need to be divided into tribes.
Right? I think that people are people.
I I also believe that people are basically good.
That there are some people who never, who, who maybe are beyond,
who can't stop hating. And,
but I think many people are just confused or they don't know enough.
I feel as if I need to be patient.
Giving somebody the benefit of the doubt is kind of what you said before.
The benefit of the doubt and which is a,
a Jewish value to give the benefit of the doubt.
It requires a lot of patience. It.
Requires a lot of patience and, and not, um, reacting,
rather taking the moment to breathe and then respond.
Yeah. And that's,
that's what I learned through like Black Lives Matter and Me Too. 'cause I,
I found myself like on social media just blasting my opinion into a black hole
and clogging up the gears for the voices who needed to be
heard. Mm-Hmm. . And I, what I learned is to listen,
like you were saying, listen to these stories, listen, and,
and take that as lead. Um, repeat what they're saying.
So I I appreciate you saying that. Please.
One of the things that I also learned most recently is I had a,
a Christian woman come up to me after the antisemitism program and say,
I hear, you know, when people say things about Jews in my,
I'm not sure how to respond, respond. I feel like I wanna say something,
but I feel like I'm free. I freeze up. So I said to her, well,
maybe it's enough to say, um, pardon me.
Yeah. Or that's weird. , I'd.
Have that person repeat what they said. Yeah.
And then maybe hear what they're saying. Yeah.
She found that tremendously helpful.
I like that. Excuse me. What did, excuse.
Me.
Could you, could you elaborate? Yeah, I like that. Yeah.
That's funny. Very clever. What are you,
what are you telling parents today about sending kids to college?
Well, um, I'm telling kids,
or I'm telling parents to go to a place that has a Jewish
community. 'cause I think that's really important. Right. Um,
and I also really believe in kind of educating
our young people about the complexities of the,
they're gonna encounter the Israel Palestine conflict on campus.
They should know about it in all its complexity. Mm-Hmm. ,
even the stuff that doesn't make Israel look good. Yeah.
They should know about that before they go to campus. And, you know,
that's what I do. I, I'm now teaching the high schoolers at, uh,
at Temple Israel. Like, I, I have them all, but as you know,
not everybody stays through through high school. So. Right.
And, and, and yeah. I think that's interesting. I mean,
one of the things I know we talk about is advocacy for education.
Mm-Hmm. . Yeah. Yeah. Our young people should know, uh,
all the messiness of this conflict, um,
so that they don't hear about it for the first time on campus. Yeah.
I think my kids were lucky in that way,
that they had grandparents that were refugees because they couldn't not know
Mm-Hmm. . Right. I mean,
they sat at a dinner table with different languages. Mm-Hmm. .
So it was just, they had no choice to say like, why do you speak that word?
You know, why did you come here? And Yes. I think,
I think they were lucky air quotes around that. So.
And, and my roots were avoiding conflict at all costs. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know,
like, you know, one, one thing I wanted to ask about is, which I,
I either the,
the rhetoric or how anti-Semitism gets talked about a lot is like
to be anti-Israeli is anti-Semitism.
You know, like what, what, what's your community?
How are you guys talking about that?
'cause that's for someone who's not Jewish reckoning,
like you were saying with what's happening Mm-Hmm. , um, to not,
doesn't make me anti-Semitic to disagree or feel pain, you know,
for what's happening over.
There. Yes. And that's a great question. Um, so I think there, there is a,
a big difference between being critical of the actions of the government
of Israel and saying that Israel doesn't have a right to
exist as a result of those actions. You know,
there were many years when I was critical of the, uh,
actions of the government of the United States. You know,
I would never say that we shouldn't, I I I still consider myself a,
a proud American, you know, I believe in our ideals. But, and,
and that's why this,
this war is so tricky because calling and calling
for a cease fire in Gaza, um,
can be heard by Israel as let's let Hamas win.
And we have Hamas leaders who say that there will be another Oct
they'll keep doing October 7th, over and over, um,
until Israel is wiped off the map. And so that's why,
and that's why I explained to my friend the pastor, I said,
that's how they hear that as anti-Semitic,
is that you wanna enable an enemy who said their desire is to wipe
Israel off the map. You wanna enable them to regroup and,
um, you know, continue with their.
Activities and, and, you know, war is horrible. It's,
we're not comfortable talking about war.
And I do think we have to start really talking about the atrocities, right?
Yeah. Yeah. And not try to rush to a conclusion. Right. I think we are,
we are strong enough to be able to hold all of the complexity and to hold
all the truths in our hearts because it,
it is true that what happened in my mind on October 7th was evil.
And I am saddened by the loss of life in Gaza,
though both things are true.
Right. So last question. You must be exhausted.
Yeah.
I am.
So what are you doing?
How do you take care of yourself for those in your position?
What are your words? 'cause you know, I, you know,
we hear all the time just go outside and take a breath. Mm-Hmm. ,
I'm guessing that you're exhausted goes beyond just going outside and taking a
breath. So self-care for the people like you, the frontline that are doing this.
What do you.
Do? So I feel, I,
I'm fortunate in our tradition that I just came to
this podcast from a rehearsal for a bar mitzvah. Right?
That's a life affirming thing. The celebration of a, of a, you know,
for this family. Um, we will be naming babies, we will be getting married,
we will be continuing with life and remembering that, um,
that's so important.
So it plugs you back in. It.
Plugs me back in.
So I think what I hear you saying is we should go celebrate life. We.
Should cel we have to celebrate life. I mean,
I think that's really one of the reasons why we are still here as a people.
Because even in, uh, you know, there, there's a story in,
you know, that even in the concentration camp where they had very little food,
they, uh, made sure to melt, you know, you know, they're,
they're fat rations so they could light lights on Hanukkah. Um,
because you can live for a time without food,
but you can't live for any time without hope.
And that's what's what our celebrations, uh, give us hope.
This has been a production of balancing life's issues with your hosts,
Kai Sorenson and Wendy Wallner, produced by me Kai Rate.
Leave a review and subscribe to the podcast wherever you listen so you can get
brand new episodes as they drop. Got an idea for the show. Email me,
ka i@balancinglifesissues.com. Anything to add? Miles.