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Today's episode of between the covers is brought

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Today's episode is also brought to you by

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Lisa a.

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and absorbing by Karen joy Fowler.

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The 2 sisters, Sheila and Angie

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on the Appalachian trail

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brings them together in what turns out to

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be a dangerous game of cat and mouse.

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At one's beautiful and other otherworldly, Sm moss

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is real in what is haunted.

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Sm moss is available now from Tin house.

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I can confidently say that today's guest, show

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t

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memoir is like no other you've ever read.

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And I say that with the highest praise.

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So it shouldn't come as a surprise that

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what she has contributed

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for the bonus audio archive today is also

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like nothing else as well.

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For as long as it has existed, the

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contributions to the bonus audio

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archive have mostly been readings either of a

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writer's own work outside of the main book

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discussed or writers reading other writers that they

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love, often with really interesting commentaries about them.

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Less commonly, there have been kraft talks or

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readings that sort of double as mini kraft

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talks.

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And the archive after that has largely consisted

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of long form interviews with translators when a

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guest comes on for a book.

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That is either not originally in English or

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only partially in English. For instance, with the

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last episode with Cecilia,

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The long form

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conversation with Poet and translator

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Daniel Bo,

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who translated her book is in the Bona

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audio archive.

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But then last year,

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Contributed that brilliant and bonkers and other worldly

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extended sound experiment of Moan and g from

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various cities on book tour, mixed with various

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sounds recorded in space, whether

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solar flares or black holes.

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And

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that mysteriously set off a a mini trend

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of people

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suddenly sending in sound contributions from Kin Lu

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to Nam.

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Similarly, very recently, Joy Mcs sw, was the

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first person ever in the history of the

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show to contribute a video, of video performance

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from her Libre pis rex.

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And lo and behold, should we try has

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also contributed a video,

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1 which oblique

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deepens our main conversation about her memoir, a

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memoir which circles some un things from her

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childhood.

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And also her life then in a piano

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conservatory in Singapore.

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For the bonus audio, should we

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went beyond the beyond and her gift to

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us.

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She took 1 of the most formative picture

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books from her childhood.

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A book that is still deeply meaningful to

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her as an adult and translated it for

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us from Chinese to English.

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First,

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she orient us to this book.

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Then she shares

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a recording of 1 of her friends from

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conservatory

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playing a piece of music for us

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to help bring us back to her childhood

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before she reads

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this translated book.

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And then page by page of this picture

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book, she na in English, the Chinese language

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text, written along with the incredible

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illustrations of Taiwanese illustrator, Jimmy Lia,

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all of which we get to see because

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it's video.

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So this is 1

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definitely not to miss.

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The Bonus audio is only 1 possible benefit,

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1 can choose from when joining the between

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the covers community as a listener or supporter.

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And you can find out about the many,

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many other things from rare collectible to the

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10 house early reader subscription

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at patreon dot com slash between the covers.

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Enjoy today's program

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with Shi t.

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Good morning, and welcome to between the covers.

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I'm David Na, your host.

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Today's guest, writer S T is from Singapore.

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Studied literature at Oxford

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and now lives in the Uk. She is

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the non fiction editor at Sun dog,

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and her own work has been listed as

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notable in 3 successive issues of the best

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American assays essays. 2021,

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22 and 23.

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Her work has appeared everywhere from the Southeast

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review to the Colorado review to the quarterly

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literary

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review, Singapore.

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She has been granted residences at the Vermont

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Studio center and the green olive of arts

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residency in Morocco,

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done writing mentorship through the Aw p writer

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to writer, mentorship program and the exposition review.

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And done workshops with V,

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short for voices of our nation's Arts foundation.

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1 of the only multi genre writing workshops

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for writers of color,

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as well as at dis quiet

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international and Portugal and the 10 House writers

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workshop.

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Her essay the story of body was adapted

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to the stage,

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publicly

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rehearsed at Center 42 in Singapore

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performed at the Adelaide Fringe festival

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in Australia.

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Show T is here today to talk about

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her debut memoir, the story game.

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A memoir really like no other before it.

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Picked as a most anticipated memoir of spring

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by publishers weekly

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and a best book of May by Book

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riot.

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Lily Huang says of the book.

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Shall we trust the story game is a

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patient

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excavation of selves?

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Not the eye of today,

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but the version before

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and the 1 before that,

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flawed and flying

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all the way back to childhood,

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reaching through history

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and memory

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to dust free so many cruel

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reflections,

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ardent,

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exquisite,

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show we try tenders aston

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with blessing 10.

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The Boston globe calls it a memoir that

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challenges the genre

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definition and function.

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And writers Wendy Walters and Ja shakira diaz

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join me in the experience of calling it

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like No,

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they have ever read.

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Pass between the covers guest, Genie Von adds.

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After reading it, I felt a new world

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of creative possibilities opening.

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The story game is hyper specific, yet ether,

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serious

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and funny. It's mesmerizing.

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And finally, Tee care

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says of this book.

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The story game introduces a major debut work

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from a most astounding talent.

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Show who he

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memoir,

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not only challenges genre,

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It up ends and splits it wide open.

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In meditations on grief,

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displacement,

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mental health and family,

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T will have you wondering how

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and why we remember and what we can't

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forget.

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The story game is h not,

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wise,

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and thunder

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innovative.

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I will teach this book. I will treasure

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it, and I will continue to learn from

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its astute and hopeful

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insights.

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Welcome to between the covers. Should we t?

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Thank you for having me. That was a

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beautiful

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introduction.

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When we open the book,

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we encounter 4 or 5 pages of dis

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body dialogue in a place called the room,

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a place we return to again and again

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between each of these assays essays and sometimes

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within each of these assays essays.

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But I wanna delay talking about it for

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1 moment

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and talk about the first essay first,

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the opening essay.

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Which isn't representative of the book as a

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whole,

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but that's also something that's true about all

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of the essays.

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But this first essay represents your first conception

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of the book, a book you didn't end

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up writing.

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It works

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entirely on its own terms. It isn't a

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draft

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but I think nevertheless it represents a book

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project that you conceived, but didn't complete.

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So talk to us about the book

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that never was

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that the island Paradise essay was supposed to

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be 1 of the anchors of.

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You're so right. You're at a multiple level

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like Chili.

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Initially when I started this book product, I

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I was by doing a book about politics

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and I thought that the premise of the

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book would be that

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everywhere, I note I kept seeing this tech

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that I found really rep repulsive. I would

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see all these systems

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that looked very beautiful. Our perfect outside but

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inside something was wrong. So with that first

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essay the Ballet essay sa, it was about

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with experience I had going to Bali,

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with my parents. My father is actually part

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Indonesian, and he's not from Bali, but we

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go to Bali often.

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And

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you know, because the tourism industry there is

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really, really, like, the backbone of bali economy,

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but it's also been very destructive for a

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lot of local people in terms of the

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ecological impact, particularly with the water scarcity problems

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that vale faces at an island. But also

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in terms of the wealth disparities that I

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generated

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by such a behemoth industry that is mostly

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catering for, people from outside with a not

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more money than the local people.

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So it really exacerbate all those social

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divides, and you know, for me, I was

282
00:11:59,775 --> 00:12:01,366
like, oh, this is a perfect example. Of

283
00:12:01,366 --> 00:12:02,877
the thing I wanted to talk about. That

284
00:12:02,877 --> 00:12:04,309
is, you know, I want to... I want

285
00:12:04,309 --> 00:12:05,104
to make it, like,

286
00:12:06,074 --> 00:12:08,456
a case study, and it can fit into

287
00:12:08,456 --> 00:12:10,759
this book I'm writing that's all about how

288
00:12:10,759 --> 00:12:12,347
the whole world looks like is. Mh.

289
00:12:13,379 --> 00:12:15,618
So that was initially when version of book

290
00:12:15,618 --> 00:12:17,369
that I was hoping to write and didn't

291
00:12:17,369 --> 00:12:18,165
end up writing.

292
00:12:18,642 --> 00:12:20,712
But you're also right in another sense, which

293
00:12:20,871 --> 00:12:22,224
I'm not sure if you already knew this,

294
00:12:22,383 --> 00:12:22,883
but

295
00:12:23,352 --> 00:12:25,097
Before I started at writing any of the

296
00:12:25,097 --> 00:12:27,477
essays in this book actually, the very, very

297
00:12:27,477 --> 00:12:27,794
first,

298
00:12:29,222 --> 00:12:31,309
the very, very first thing that made me

299
00:12:31,309 --> 00:12:33,309
think I even wanted to write a book

300
00:12:33,309 --> 00:12:35,009
was that my father's family

301
00:12:35,550 --> 00:12:37,070
told me maybe you should write a book

302
00:12:37,070 --> 00:12:38,430
about your brand father's life.

303
00:12:39,163 --> 00:12:42,114
And that's because my grandfather is Indonesia indonesian,

304
00:12:42,274 --> 00:12:44,209
and he grew up in Sum.

305
00:12:44,986 --> 00:12:47,059
But when he was a young boy, there

306
00:12:47,059 --> 00:12:48,357
was a large

307
00:12:48,829 --> 00:12:51,612
kind of, like, there many programs in Indonesia.

308
00:12:51,850 --> 00:12:53,202
I'm not sure if that's a technical word

309
00:12:53,202 --> 00:12:54,871
for it but I was ethnic cleansing and

310
00:12:54,871 --> 00:12:56,541
my grandfather is a Chinese person.

311
00:12:57,034 --> 00:12:58,549
When he was a young boy, he already

312
00:12:58,549 --> 00:13:00,623
paid ethnic cleansing and had to, like ran

313
00:13:00,623 --> 00:13:01,522
from his spinach

314
00:13:01,899 --> 00:13:04,292
together with his family and seek refuge elsewhere.

315
00:13:04,770 --> 00:13:06,365
And in 19 65,

316
00:13:06,938 --> 00:13:09,245
there was a very, very large genocide of

317
00:13:09,324 --> 00:13:11,632
Chinese people that happened in Indonesia, like, a

318
00:13:11,632 --> 00:13:12,348
mask given

319
00:13:12,984 --> 00:13:15,371
that until today is though not very much

320
00:13:15,371 --> 00:13:18,800
discussed. Actually in Indonesia and in politics there,

321
00:13:19,039 --> 00:13:22,135
but that was the event that pre my

322
00:13:22,135 --> 00:13:24,437
families moved from Indonesia Singapore.

323
00:13:24,929 --> 00:13:26,913
So I think because of that, there was

324
00:13:26,913 --> 00:13:29,136
a very large part of our family's history

325
00:13:29,136 --> 00:13:31,439
that just got lost in time because my

326
00:13:31,439 --> 00:13:34,312
grandfather and grandmother don't ever talk about what

327
00:13:34,312 --> 00:13:37,565
happened. And the insight never really even hold

328
00:13:37,565 --> 00:13:40,263
their own children. The reason why they left

329
00:13:40,739 --> 00:13:40,897
Indonesia,

330
00:13:41,549 --> 00:13:42,825
I think, you know, in my father's mine,

331
00:13:42,905 --> 00:13:44,501
at least, there was a big question of,

332
00:13:44,580 --> 00:13:46,176
like, there was a big part of self

333
00:13:46,176 --> 00:13:48,465
that he felt. He could only access if

334
00:13:48,664 --> 00:13:51,301
Storyteller was able to write about it. So

335
00:13:51,301 --> 00:13:53,059
he intact me with this? He was like,

336
00:13:53,139 --> 00:13:54,678
why don't you write a book about your

337
00:13:54,977 --> 00:13:56,655
life. And I think that's why the very

338
00:13:56,655 --> 00:13:59,730
first and kona I had with this beam

339
00:14:00,190 --> 00:14:02,429
was around Indonesia because I just felt like

340
00:14:02,429 --> 00:14:04,429
there's something in this part of the world

341
00:14:04,429 --> 00:14:06,120
that I need to go back through and

342
00:14:06,120 --> 00:14:08,427
try and dig up again. But if you'll

343
00:14:08,427 --> 00:14:10,097
see her a having red epi that didn't

344
00:14:10,097 --> 00:14:10,654
happen l.

345
00:14:12,499 --> 00:14:13,717
Do you think you'll ever

346
00:14:14,095 --> 00:14:16,648
write this story of your grandfather? Is that

347
00:14:16,648 --> 00:14:18,005
something you're considering writing?

348
00:14:18,723 --> 00:14:21,128
I can't speak for, like, my future ourselves.

349
00:14:21,447 --> 00:14:22,981
But for me, currently,

350
00:14:23,834 --> 00:14:25,506
I don't think I do... I will write

351
00:14:25,506 --> 00:14:27,495
that because I think in a sense, I

352
00:14:27,495 --> 00:14:29,166
do think I have already written the book.

353
00:14:29,818 --> 00:14:31,486
Because story game is that book, I in

354
00:14:31,486 --> 00:14:31,804
a sense,

355
00:14:32,758 --> 00:14:34,188
I was talking about this a little bit

356
00:14:34,188 --> 00:14:35,404
just now, but

357
00:14:35,857 --> 00:14:37,764
with the first essay, I started out trying

358
00:14:37,764 --> 00:14:39,609
to write about my Family history and then

359
00:14:39,768 --> 00:14:41,438
I gave up, and I wrote about myself.

360
00:14:41,677 --> 00:14:43,587
It ended being an essay where I said,

361
00:14:43,666 --> 00:14:45,814
you know, actually, I don't feel a strong

362
00:14:45,814 --> 00:14:48,700
emotional connection to Indonesia. I understand that there's

363
00:14:48,700 --> 00:14:50,779
a lot of trauma and pain had us

364
00:14:50,779 --> 00:14:52,139
to this place, but I don't feel a

365
00:14:52,139 --> 00:14:54,299
strong connection because I only visited a few

366
00:14:54,299 --> 00:14:56,306
times. When I was growing up, I don't

367
00:14:56,306 --> 00:14:57,760
really speak the language Fluently,

368
00:14:58,374 --> 00:14:59,965
maybe the the part of it we kept

369
00:14:59,965 --> 00:15:02,207
the most was the food, but from that,

370
00:15:02,367 --> 00:15:04,278
You know, at my family is very much

371
00:15:04,278 --> 00:15:05,631
integrated into Singapore.

372
00:15:06,268 --> 00:15:07,781
And so I feel distant from this place.

373
00:15:07,940 --> 00:15:09,851
And that was the final of the essay

374
00:15:09,851 --> 00:15:12,418
sa. And actually with only many years later.

375
00:15:12,657 --> 00:15:15,449
So after the story game was published by

376
00:15:15,449 --> 00:15:17,921
10 house. And in fact I, it was

377
00:15:17,921 --> 00:15:19,995
after the story games, already on the shelves.

378
00:15:20,408 --> 00:15:22,316
Put, like, very recently like a few months

379
00:15:22,316 --> 00:15:25,017
ago. I suddenly realize, I think that in

380
00:15:25,017 --> 00:15:27,878
writing the story of myself, I completed the

381
00:15:27,878 --> 00:15:29,801
task my father sent me. Because that was

382
00:15:29,801 --> 00:15:31,551
what my grandfather wanted it with his silence.

383
00:15:31,869 --> 00:15:33,460
He chose not to draw on his camera

384
00:15:33,460 --> 00:15:35,529
because he wanted it his his defendant to

385
00:15:35,529 --> 00:15:37,279
be able to have the new story, I

386
00:15:37,279 --> 00:15:37,438
think.

387
00:15:38,169 --> 00:15:39,439
Know, he might dad has have a better

388
00:15:39,439 --> 00:15:41,107
line than the life he had. And he

389
00:15:41,107 --> 00:15:44,443
worked really hard to to staunch his own

390
00:15:44,443 --> 00:15:47,243
wound and, like, staunch that thing inside him

391
00:15:47,243 --> 00:15:49,960
that was cashing full of stories. Mh so

392
00:15:49,960 --> 00:15:51,238
that we could have that. And I think

393
00:15:51,238 --> 00:15:52,677
my book is a very perfect.

394
00:15:53,236 --> 00:15:55,250
And caps relation of is which it came

395
00:15:55,250 --> 00:15:56,850
true. Oh, that's wonderful to hear.

396
00:15:57,730 --> 00:15:59,269
Well, if someone were to ask

397
00:15:59,809 --> 00:16:03,009
whether this were an essay collection or a

398
00:16:03,009 --> 00:16:03,250
memoir,

399
00:16:04,065 --> 00:16:05,904
I think the answer would be yes to

400
00:16:05,904 --> 00:16:06,225
both,

401
00:16:07,105 --> 00:16:09,904
but neither separately or together would be a

402
00:16:09,904 --> 00:16:10,705
sufficient description.

403
00:16:11,759 --> 00:16:13,672
If someone were to call it a detective

404
00:16:13,672 --> 00:16:14,172
story

405
00:16:14,549 --> 00:16:17,738
or a meta meditation on memory and narrative

406
00:16:17,738 --> 00:16:19,412
and the construction of self,

407
00:16:20,224 --> 00:16:22,000
I don't think they'd be wrong on either

408
00:16:22,058 --> 00:16:22,558
account

409
00:16:22,936 --> 00:16:23,414
either.

410
00:16:24,132 --> 00:16:26,786
And likewise, and perhaps most pertinent

411
00:16:27,482 --> 00:16:29,317
to what makes this book stand out to

412
00:16:29,317 --> 00:16:29,476
me.

413
00:16:30,129 --> 00:16:32,139
If someone were to call it a fiction

414
00:16:32,593 --> 00:16:33,729
or even fantasy,

415
00:16:34,660 --> 00:16:36,034
they would also be

416
00:16:36,488 --> 00:16:37,442
partially correct.

417
00:16:38,411 --> 00:16:40,638
For me, the most mysterious thing about this

418
00:16:40,638 --> 00:16:43,285
book is that it is the fictional

419
00:16:43,740 --> 00:16:45,489
fantasy elements of the book.

420
00:16:46,459 --> 00:16:48,638
That make the individual essays

421
00:16:49,096 --> 00:16:50,156
into a memoir

422
00:16:50,615 --> 00:16:54,072
that provide the glue or the connective tissue

423
00:16:54,451 --> 00:16:55,510
between the essays

424
00:16:55,904 --> 00:16:57,740
and somehow makes this not only,

425
00:16:58,379 --> 00:17:01,252
not an essay collection or not a collection

426
00:17:01,252 --> 00:17:03,807
of things at all, but a cohesive journey.

427
00:17:05,019 --> 00:17:07,019
So before we start that journey, I wanted

428
00:17:07,019 --> 00:17:10,380
to spend time with this fictional connective tissue,

429
00:17:11,500 --> 00:17:13,579
both what it is in its own right,

430
00:17:14,074 --> 00:17:15,989
and how it functions to bring the book

431
00:17:15,989 --> 00:17:16,308
together.

432
00:17:17,185 --> 00:17:19,818
The book opens, as I mentioned earlier in

433
00:17:19,818 --> 00:17:21,015
a place called the room,

434
00:17:21,589 --> 00:17:24,141
which is both a real place and an

435
00:17:24,141 --> 00:17:25,178
imagined space,

436
00:17:25,736 --> 00:17:27,512
and it's populated with

437
00:17:28,209 --> 00:17:30,442
imagined versions of real people.

438
00:17:31,414 --> 00:17:33,669
A place we return to and visit

439
00:17:34,126 --> 00:17:36,279
many, many times in this book. So let's

440
00:17:36,279 --> 00:17:37,737
start with a first

441
00:17:38,593 --> 00:17:40,826
attempt to describe the room. How would you

442
00:17:40,826 --> 00:17:41,279
describe

443
00:17:41,718 --> 00:17:44,210
what we encounter. The room, its occupants,

444
00:17:44,825 --> 00:17:47,056
and then the game that happens in it

445
00:17:47,056 --> 00:17:48,092
as we start the book.

446
00:17:49,383 --> 00:17:51,219
This is a very good question because when

447
00:17:51,298 --> 00:17:52,576
I was the right thing to book... I

448
00:17:52,576 --> 00:17:54,273
asked myself this question also

449
00:17:54,651 --> 00:17:57,146
as I was writing. And maybe the murky

450
00:17:57,205 --> 00:17:59,380
kind of quality of the room if we

451
00:17:59,380 --> 00:18:01,140
related it through that because I myself as

452
00:18:01,140 --> 00:18:02,819
the writer. I didn't know what this place

453
00:18:02,819 --> 00:18:04,259
was. I just felt that I had a

454
00:18:04,259 --> 00:18:05,859
strong desire to create it.

455
00:18:06,513 --> 00:18:08,660
So in terms of how the room looks,

456
00:18:09,057 --> 00:18:11,363
it's patent on a bedroom that I used

457
00:18:11,363 --> 00:18:13,431
to share with my younger sister when we

458
00:18:13,431 --> 00:18:13,987
watch children.

459
00:18:14,639 --> 00:18:16,240
In our parents or house.

460
00:18:16,960 --> 00:18:19,779
And it has a few elements of

461
00:18:20,159 --> 00:18:22,819
the... I would say kind of, like, physicality

462
00:18:22,960 --> 00:18:25,044
of the room. So for example, like, the

463
00:18:25,044 --> 00:18:27,608
humidity of the end, Singapore, or, like, crickets

464
00:18:27,901 --> 00:18:31,289
outside, and also the the ceiling fan that

465
00:18:31,410 --> 00:18:33,090
turns and it makes a very, like, loud

466
00:18:33,090 --> 00:18:35,570
wishing sound because the areas of humid and

467
00:18:35,570 --> 00:18:37,730
also the smell of the movement eucalyptus.

468
00:18:38,289 --> 00:18:39,970
So it has all those elements. But at

469
00:18:39,970 --> 00:18:42,297
the same time, it's case that's missing a

470
00:18:42,297 --> 00:18:43,354
lot. So

471
00:18:43,729 --> 00:18:45,002
I think right at the beginning of the

472
00:18:45,002 --> 00:18:47,150
book, the narrator of the book who is

473
00:18:47,150 --> 00:18:48,915
sort of like me. She's gave the. I

474
00:18:48,915 --> 00:18:50,745
don't remember what pictures are here, and I

475
00:18:50,745 --> 00:18:53,132
also don't remember what furniture is here. So

476
00:18:53,132 --> 00:18:55,519
it's a place with both present and I

477
00:18:55,519 --> 00:18:57,603
would say, and it comes together. I you

478
00:18:57,603 --> 00:18:59,909
know, to create us enough of a vibe

479
00:18:59,909 --> 00:19:02,317
that the person reading the book understand

480
00:19:02,770 --> 00:19:05,647
that, you know, it feels real like, a

481
00:19:05,647 --> 00:19:07,396
person could live there and characters could live

482
00:19:07,396 --> 00:19:09,860
there, but equally there some questions about how

483
00:19:09,860 --> 00:19:10,655
real is real.

484
00:19:11,290 --> 00:19:12,880
And in terms of the people who are

485
00:19:12,880 --> 00:19:14,803
in the room, 1 of them is and

486
00:19:14,803 --> 00:19:16,394
it girl, and 1 of them is me.

487
00:19:16,951 --> 00:19:17,269
And,

488
00:19:17,826 --> 00:19:18,883
the little girl

489
00:19:19,338 --> 00:19:22,377
addresses me at has sister. So that's how

490
00:19:22,377 --> 00:19:24,209
to book begin, and then we have a

491
00:19:24,209 --> 00:19:26,121
chat, and, you know, she she had the

492
00:19:26,121 --> 00:19:27,714
voice of a very young child right at

493
00:19:27,714 --> 00:19:30,184
the beginning where she's saying, like, it's not

494
00:19:30,184 --> 00:19:32,742
fun or like, you know, put more drama

495
00:19:32,742 --> 00:19:35,044
and the stories Are, like, you're lying to

496
00:19:35,044 --> 00:19:37,346
me, like, the kind of very emphatic things

497
00:19:37,346 --> 00:19:39,980
with small tail with there. So I think

498
00:19:39,980 --> 00:19:41,330
that's what I would say about the room.

499
00:19:42,124 --> 00:19:43,814
Well, as we read this first

500
00:19:44,346 --> 00:19:45,934
political essay about Bali,

501
00:19:46,823 --> 00:19:49,288
we returned to the room several times before

502
00:19:49,288 --> 00:19:50,162
the sa ends.

503
00:19:50,798 --> 00:19:52,729
We do this because your sister

504
00:19:53,422 --> 00:19:55,569
or the figure that represents your sister.

505
00:19:56,459 --> 00:19:59,812
Is unsatisfied with your telling of it. She

506
00:19:59,812 --> 00:20:02,686
wants a story, not an essay. She doesn't

507
00:20:02,686 --> 00:20:05,182
want something scholar or imp.

508
00:20:06,134 --> 00:20:08,532
She wants something personal and intimate.

509
00:20:09,251 --> 00:20:11,409
So each time we return to the essay

510
00:20:11,409 --> 00:20:11,968
from the room,

511
00:20:12,687 --> 00:20:15,245
we return knowing that you are continuing to

512
00:20:15,245 --> 00:20:17,495
write in the aura of this critique.

513
00:20:18,374 --> 00:20:20,689
And this points to an element of non

514
00:20:20,689 --> 00:20:23,722
fiction that is interesting, but usually not foreground

515
00:20:23,722 --> 00:20:26,793
grounded, I think. That even when we're earnest

516
00:20:26,932 --> 00:20:28,290
trying to quote unquote,

517
00:20:29,009 --> 00:20:29,728
tell the truth,

518
00:20:30,687 --> 00:20:32,125
sometimes we aren't able to.

519
00:20:33,256 --> 00:20:35,480
Because of things we haven't sorted out inside

520
00:20:35,480 --> 00:20:36,196
of us yet.

521
00:20:36,831 --> 00:20:37,490
We aren't

522
00:20:37,944 --> 00:20:40,902
necessarily trying to deceive, but what we write

523
00:20:40,902 --> 00:20:41,961
is still ob

524
00:20:42,339 --> 00:20:44,733
the truth even from the writer themselves.

525
00:20:45,531 --> 00:20:46,989
In the Bali essay sa

526
00:20:47,366 --> 00:20:47,686
itself,

527
00:20:48,419 --> 00:20:51,935
there are questions of performance and truth that

528
00:20:51,935 --> 00:20:53,234
are not explicitly

529
00:20:53,613 --> 00:20:56,090
linked to these questions for you as the

530
00:20:56,090 --> 00:20:58,423
memoir writer, but they sort of rhyme with

531
00:20:58,423 --> 00:21:01,241
the questions in a way. We learn that

532
00:21:01,540 --> 00:21:03,079
when the Bali royalty

533
00:21:03,778 --> 00:21:06,255
commit mass suicide in 19 o 6.

534
00:21:07,148 --> 00:21:09,317
In front of the invading Dutch soldiers

535
00:21:10,088 --> 00:21:12,417
that the Dutch are so shamed in Europe

536
00:21:12,711 --> 00:21:15,414
to such an extent that they vowed to

537
00:21:15,414 --> 00:21:15,914
preserve

538
00:21:16,303 --> 00:21:19,269
bali culture from time and from modern.

539
00:21:20,360 --> 00:21:22,690
And even fake invented dances

540
00:21:23,480 --> 00:21:24,380
get incorporated

541
00:21:24,839 --> 00:21:28,599
into tradition and become part of the real

542
00:21:28,599 --> 00:21:31,319
face of what Bali puts forth for the

543
00:21:31,319 --> 00:21:31,559
tourist.

544
00:21:32,531 --> 00:21:35,873
The illusion of glamour is maintained regardless of

545
00:21:35,873 --> 00:21:37,465
the cost to the people on the land,

546
00:21:38,340 --> 00:21:40,648
even if that cost is death or drought.

547
00:21:41,538 --> 00:21:43,762
We also learn about the popularity of cock

548
00:21:43,762 --> 00:21:45,295
fighting, and it's theatrical

549
00:21:45,669 --> 00:21:47,757
nature, how it also creates

550
00:21:48,131 --> 00:21:50,931
an illusion for the gamble that their positions

551
00:21:50,931 --> 00:21:53,165
in life are mobile and fluid,

552
00:21:54,122 --> 00:21:56,356
even if in reality, no matter what happens

553
00:21:56,356 --> 00:21:58,604
in the game. Their actual positions in the

554
00:21:58,604 --> 00:22:00,279
world are fixed and I mobile.

555
00:22:01,236 --> 00:22:03,548
I have multiple questions I wanna ask you

556
00:22:03,548 --> 00:22:05,303
about the fiction in this book. But first,

557
00:22:06,514 --> 00:22:07,951
perhaps in the most general way,

558
00:22:08,908 --> 00:22:11,303
what are your thoughts about fiction in relation

559
00:22:11,303 --> 00:22:12,202
to the real

560
00:22:12,899 --> 00:22:14,437
and fictional elements

561
00:22:14,989 --> 00:22:17,557
and their role whether by design or

562
00:22:17,932 --> 00:22:20,955
inadvertently within memoir or within non fiction.

563
00:22:22,881 --> 00:22:24,497
This is such a good question.

564
00:22:25,750 --> 00:22:27,822
But I don't wanna generalize realize, but for

565
00:22:27,822 --> 00:22:30,783
me, suddenly, I feel like, fiction and non

566
00:22:30,783 --> 00:22:32,453
fiction feel like they are the same thing

567
00:22:32,453 --> 00:22:34,520
a lot of the time. Because as you

568
00:22:34,520 --> 00:22:37,304
said, for me, like, my experience of the

569
00:22:37,304 --> 00:22:39,133
world incorporate a lot of fiction. And if

570
00:22:39,212 --> 00:22:40,741
I were to try and tell somebody what

571
00:22:40,741 --> 00:22:42,655
it feels like to be me. The most

572
00:22:42,655 --> 00:22:44,650
authentic thing to do if we did also

573
00:22:44,650 --> 00:22:46,723
tell them about the many fantasies I have

574
00:22:46,723 --> 00:22:48,797
in my head, and I'm bringing up all

575
00:22:48,797 --> 00:22:49,536
the time

576
00:22:50,248 --> 00:22:50,748
sometimes,

577
00:22:51,604 --> 00:22:53,518
kind of without my own control or without

578
00:22:53,518 --> 00:22:53,917
my own...

579
00:22:54,794 --> 00:22:56,948
Without, like, consciously trying to do it. Know,

580
00:22:57,027 --> 00:22:59,021
but they're always there, like, a parallel kind

581
00:22:59,021 --> 00:22:59,521
of

582
00:22:59,913 --> 00:23:01,740
stream of thought that's happening in my head.

583
00:23:03,012 --> 00:23:04,601
I think the question you add is so

584
00:23:04,601 --> 00:23:06,747
interesting because reason yeah, I've been thinking about

585
00:23:06,747 --> 00:23:07,621
this how,

586
00:23:08,828 --> 00:23:12,430
my sister actually works in reality tv. Oh

587
00:23:12,725 --> 00:23:14,951
like. So big bad that is so funny

588
00:23:14,951 --> 00:23:16,462
to me. Maybe to use the word test,

589
00:23:16,621 --> 00:23:19,023
Like, it rhyme. Yeah. It's like a my

590
00:23:19,023 --> 00:23:20,617
inversion of the the thing I do it.

591
00:23:20,936 --> 00:23:22,372
I work in non fiction. I don't think

592
00:23:22,451 --> 00:23:23,807
I would ever write a book of picture

593
00:23:23,807 --> 00:23:25,880
fiction. I just don't have that inside me

594
00:23:25,880 --> 00:23:27,489
plus I'm reason to desire to make a

595
00:23:27,489 --> 00:23:30,357
product that's primarily thick fiction. I will always

596
00:23:30,357 --> 00:23:33,545
wear non fiction. But the fix the predictive

597
00:23:33,545 --> 00:23:36,811
elements are kind of, like incorporated into, the

598
00:23:36,811 --> 00:23:39,403
biggest structure and the super structure is, like

599
00:23:39,542 --> 00:23:41,939
authenticity basically. And I think it's funny because

600
00:23:41,939 --> 00:23:43,697
maybe for is that the other way around.

601
00:23:43,857 --> 00:23:46,015
The container that holds everything together is.

602
00:23:46,507 --> 00:23:49,042
But there are elements of their real. And

603
00:23:49,042 --> 00:23:50,414
maybe it's something about

604
00:23:51,023 --> 00:23:53,083
the environment we came from where truth was

605
00:23:53,083 --> 00:23:56,113
not directly addressed, and truth was always hidden

606
00:23:56,113 --> 00:23:58,358
and the many layers of ob location creates

607
00:23:58,731 --> 00:24:01,606
the way of approaching the world. Where the

608
00:24:01,606 --> 00:24:03,677
fiction, the story is in reality. Right? Because

609
00:24:03,677 --> 00:24:05,668
the story is technically what we lived through.

610
00:24:05,987 --> 00:24:08,297
You know. The story that obscure the truth

611
00:24:08,297 --> 00:24:09,651
was our lived in reality.

612
00:24:10,064 --> 00:24:11,902
If that makes sense? Yeah. I love that.

613
00:24:12,142 --> 00:24:15,177
And... And this notion of a writer maybe

614
00:24:15,177 --> 00:24:17,986
not quote unquote, telling the truth without knowing

615
00:24:17,986 --> 00:24:19,898
they're not telling the truth is really interesting

616
00:24:19,898 --> 00:24:23,402
and fiction, but also even just formal decisions,

617
00:24:23,561 --> 00:24:26,164
like, the most norma form of a memoir

618
00:24:26,364 --> 00:24:27,822
which is not your memoir

619
00:24:28,199 --> 00:24:29,976
of a 3 act

620
00:24:30,434 --> 00:24:34,357
double timeline. Yeah. That's a fictional form I

621
00:24:34,357 --> 00:24:35,231
mean, that's a form.

622
00:24:35,945 --> 00:24:38,407
Like, that's not how anybody's life happens.

623
00:24:38,804 --> 00:24:41,028
So to put to put your life in

624
00:24:41,028 --> 00:24:41,583
a form,

625
00:24:42,474 --> 00:24:45,835
seems also to be bringing and f elements.

626
00:24:46,554 --> 00:24:47,194
I think also,

627
00:24:47,835 --> 00:24:49,914
for me part of it probably comes from

628
00:24:49,914 --> 00:24:51,674
growing up in Singapore, where there was a

629
00:24:51,674 --> 00:24:53,446
lot storytelling telling around me all the time.

630
00:24:53,766 --> 00:24:55,282
There was a lot of I guess you

631
00:24:55,282 --> 00:24:57,278
might call it state messaging, not that other

632
00:24:57,278 --> 00:24:59,434
countries don't have this, filing in Singapore it's

633
00:24:59,434 --> 00:25:02,004
very explicitly messaging from this state that when

634
00:25:02,004 --> 00:25:03,842
you go in public transport for example, they'll

635
00:25:03,842 --> 00:25:06,399
be, like, stories that are circulating around you.

636
00:25:06,638 --> 00:25:08,876
And so I've always been very aware of

637
00:25:08,876 --> 00:25:09,775
that that

638
00:25:10,089 --> 00:25:12,101
you know, these stories are about the reality

639
00:25:12,477 --> 00:25:14,944
around it. But in some way, the stories

640
00:25:14,944 --> 00:25:16,855
are constructed, and you can see quite clearly.

641
00:25:17,094 --> 00:25:19,202
I think in singapore especially it very transparent.

642
00:25:19,419 --> 00:25:20,695
And almost like, you can see the bones

643
00:25:20,695 --> 00:25:22,130
of the story, and you can see the

644
00:25:22,130 --> 00:25:24,602
people in the background. I putting elements together

645
00:25:24,602 --> 00:25:26,037
to decide, okay, This is how we're going

646
00:25:26,037 --> 00:25:28,831
to frame the current reality, our country in.

647
00:25:29,307 --> 00:25:30,814
And this is the the way it comes

648
00:25:30,814 --> 00:25:32,796
out as a beautiful story. That's easy for

649
00:25:32,796 --> 00:25:34,223
people to grasp and follow.

650
00:25:34,874 --> 00:25:37,428
So for me, I just... Yeah. I I

651
00:25:37,428 --> 00:25:39,663
agree completely, but is that, like, even when

652
00:25:39,663 --> 00:25:40,323
a writer

653
00:25:40,781 --> 00:25:41,839
is trying to

654
00:25:42,377 --> 00:25:43,096
tell the truth.

655
00:25:43,749 --> 00:25:46,218
That ad of telling is fiction. Mh. Maybe

656
00:25:46,218 --> 00:25:48,050
the the the part that involves using your

657
00:25:48,050 --> 00:25:50,122
voice is imaginative, you know,

658
00:25:50,854 --> 00:25:53,428
Well, in in the story game, we quickly

659
00:25:53,566 --> 00:25:54,066
discover

660
00:25:54,682 --> 00:25:58,112
that this sister figure who both asks for

661
00:25:58,112 --> 00:26:00,026
stories for 1 story after the next,

662
00:26:00,839 --> 00:26:03,480
She also inter each 1 1 to the

663
00:26:03,480 --> 00:26:03,720
next.

664
00:26:04,599 --> 00:26:05,900
And there's a way in which

665
00:26:06,359 --> 00:26:07,980
this sister figure

666
00:26:08,279 --> 00:26:09,579
is your first reader

667
00:26:10,054 --> 00:26:13,730
but also almost like your editor slash critic,

668
00:26:14,689 --> 00:26:16,308
almost like a therapist

669
00:26:17,007 --> 00:26:18,785
relationship because she knows you

670
00:26:19,259 --> 00:26:21,099
because as a sister, she has been a

671
00:26:21,099 --> 00:26:21,580
witness.

672
00:26:21,980 --> 00:26:24,940
You have shared lived experiences. And so she

673
00:26:24,940 --> 00:26:25,680
can comment

674
00:26:26,234 --> 00:26:28,627
on how you are or are not being

675
00:26:28,627 --> 00:26:30,382
honest with yourself as you write,

676
00:26:31,339 --> 00:26:32,774
what you're avoiding and more.

677
00:26:33,492 --> 00:26:35,167
Maybe more than anyone else could.

678
00:26:36,139 --> 00:26:38,136
In this sense, it feels vital that this

679
00:26:38,136 --> 00:26:40,794
figure b your sister or an imaginative

680
00:26:41,492 --> 00:26:42,471
version of your sister

681
00:26:43,184 --> 00:26:45,252
but it's also really clear that it's not

682
00:26:45,252 --> 00:26:45,991
your sister

683
00:26:46,843 --> 00:26:49,468
that it's an imagined version and that you're

684
00:26:49,468 --> 00:26:49,968
giving

685
00:26:50,515 --> 00:26:51,887
words to this figure

686
00:26:52,338 --> 00:26:54,637
that she probably has never spoken.

687
00:26:55,588 --> 00:26:57,197
And I believe it was your editor

688
00:26:57,743 --> 00:26:59,567
at 10 house Elizabeth D,

689
00:26:59,963 --> 00:27:03,373
who called this book speculative non fiction, which

690
00:27:03,452 --> 00:27:04,825
I really like. And

691
00:27:05,769 --> 00:27:08,089
this imagine sister feels like it's at the

692
00:27:08,089 --> 00:27:09,769
core of this element of the book.

693
00:27:10,890 --> 00:27:12,429
There's always, I think

694
00:27:12,890 --> 00:27:16,424
in any writing, a gap between a represented

695
00:27:16,424 --> 00:27:18,585
person on the page and the actual person

696
00:27:18,585 --> 00:27:19,224
in the world.

697
00:27:20,025 --> 00:27:22,184
But I think that gap in your book

698
00:27:22,184 --> 00:27:23,484
is really accent.

699
00:27:24,438 --> 00:27:27,386
Which both calls attention to the art of

700
00:27:27,386 --> 00:27:27,886
any

701
00:27:28,342 --> 00:27:28,842
representation

702
00:27:29,856 --> 00:27:31,471
through, I think an exaggerated

703
00:27:31,848 --> 00:27:33,442
sense of art in your book,

704
00:27:34,253 --> 00:27:35,471
but also actually

705
00:27:35,926 --> 00:27:37,839
not trying to capture your sister on the

706
00:27:37,839 --> 00:27:38,476
page at all.

707
00:27:39,432 --> 00:27:40,866
Yeah. Even as it's important,

708
00:27:41,599 --> 00:27:44,319
that it sort of, quote unquote, remain her.

709
00:27:45,119 --> 00:27:47,279
In a way, it feels like your sister

710
00:27:47,279 --> 00:27:47,779
is

711
00:27:48,079 --> 00:27:50,799
in the end another aspect of you.

712
00:27:51,612 --> 00:27:54,103
But talk to us about the parameters

713
00:27:54,797 --> 00:27:57,107
given that she is a real person working

714
00:27:57,107 --> 00:27:58,222
in reality Tv.

715
00:28:00,147 --> 00:28:02,454
Talk us about the parameters of what if

716
00:28:02,454 --> 00:28:04,522
there are parameters of what you would allow

717
00:28:04,522 --> 00:28:05,420
for yourself

718
00:28:05,795 --> 00:28:08,022
and how you portray your sister.

719
00:28:08,672 --> 00:28:11,291
How far you're willing to travel from what

720
00:28:11,291 --> 00:28:14,783
she would actually say or do as you

721
00:28:14,783 --> 00:28:16,132
portray your sister in the room.

722
00:28:17,418 --> 00:28:19,171
I feel like the only part of the

723
00:28:19,171 --> 00:28:23,155
book the my sister is actually herself. There's

724
00:28:23,155 --> 00:28:25,227
a slight overlap between the sister and the

725
00:28:25,227 --> 00:28:26,422
book and the sister and the world.

726
00:28:27,075 --> 00:28:28,994
Is maybe in the very last page of

727
00:28:28,994 --> 00:28:31,154
the book where I have a phone call

728
00:28:31,154 --> 00:28:32,515
with my sister in the real world.

729
00:28:33,075 --> 00:28:34,755
And you have no idea how many times

730
00:28:34,914 --> 00:28:37,558
I edit Peter. I edit them so much.

731
00:28:37,717 --> 00:28:39,626
In fact, I think the very last edit

732
00:28:39,626 --> 00:28:41,933
that I gave Elizabeth, my editor.

733
00:28:42,902 --> 00:28:44,886
Before the book wendy to print was to

734
00:28:44,886 --> 00:28:46,314
tell her to change a word in that

735
00:28:46,314 --> 00:28:48,219
sentence where I'm describing the quality of my

736
00:28:48,219 --> 00:28:50,203
sister's voice. But I said, okay. This is

737
00:28:50,203 --> 00:28:52,130
not a right word. It's It's closed but

738
00:28:52,130 --> 00:28:53,569
it's not exactly right, and I need it

739
00:28:53,569 --> 00:28:55,409
to be exactly right because this is the

740
00:28:55,409 --> 00:28:56,769
part where she's a real person.

741
00:28:57,329 --> 00:28:58,769
I think that I have a lot of

742
00:28:58,769 --> 00:29:01,729
risk respect for other people's sense of self.

743
00:29:02,046 --> 00:29:04,929
Like I just always had had this, particularly

744
00:29:04,985 --> 00:29:06,573
when it's someone who's close to me, like,

745
00:29:06,732 --> 00:29:07,526
with my sister,

746
00:29:08,162 --> 00:29:11,598
I find it almost impossible to tell lie

747
00:29:11,598 --> 00:29:13,191
about what the person sit, or I feel

748
00:29:13,191 --> 00:29:14,248
like very, very,

749
00:29:14,863 --> 00:29:17,172
uncomfortable speaking on behalf of the other person.

750
00:29:17,744 --> 00:29:20,053
Like, I would maybe transcribe out words directly.

751
00:29:20,292 --> 00:29:22,044
If they gave them to me. But then

752
00:29:22,044 --> 00:29:24,034
again, I feel like, even so there is

753
00:29:24,034 --> 00:29:25,967
a power dynamic that appears

754
00:29:26,357 --> 00:29:27,707
because my name is on the book and

755
00:29:27,707 --> 00:29:29,453
they end up being a character in the

756
00:29:29,453 --> 00:29:33,344
book whereas a more accurate kind of literary

757
00:29:33,344 --> 00:29:35,275
for on maybe it has yet to be

758
00:29:35,275 --> 00:29:38,394
imagine. What call us c creators. Right? Like,

759
00:29:38,954 --> 00:29:40,875
memoirs is a c with every single other

760
00:29:40,875 --> 00:29:43,042
the human being. Who appears in their pages

761
00:29:43,042 --> 00:29:43,837
as a character.

762
00:29:44,315 --> 00:29:46,383
And I feel like for me, it just

763
00:29:46,383 --> 00:29:47,815
feels like a place I can't really go.

764
00:29:49,024 --> 00:29:52,375
But equally, I love wanting that it's very

765
00:29:52,375 --> 00:29:54,289
clear that this is not my because I

766
00:29:54,289 --> 00:29:55,885
think that the person who appears in the

767
00:29:55,885 --> 00:29:57,813
book is why I wish my sister was.

768
00:29:58,131 --> 00:30:00,224
It's like all the elements of wish

769
00:30:00,919 --> 00:30:03,070
about the relationship that we never had. Like,

770
00:30:03,230 --> 00:30:05,595
we never got to have this relationship because

771
00:30:05,794 --> 00:30:08,101
our relationship was 1 of silence for many

772
00:30:08,101 --> 00:30:10,330
years. And so there's so much love that

773
00:30:10,330 --> 00:30:12,320
was lost over the years. And I think

774
00:30:12,320 --> 00:30:14,664
that for me I always have this question

775
00:30:14,721 --> 00:30:17,107
about when does this stuff go? You know?

776
00:30:17,902 --> 00:30:19,970
Oh, it's getting funny because I mean, just

777
00:30:19,970 --> 00:30:22,553
be going attention a little bit. I recently

778
00:30:22,850 --> 00:30:25,160
was at a reading for another writer.

779
00:30:25,798 --> 00:30:28,267
I think Renal Kong. And then she was

780
00:30:28,267 --> 00:30:30,498
talking about how for her she feels like

781
00:30:30,498 --> 00:30:32,580
fiction is the way of exploring that. She's

782
00:30:32,580 --> 00:30:34,645
like, you know, because there are so many

783
00:30:34,645 --> 00:30:37,108
un realities in your life. It's, like, every

784
00:30:37,108 --> 00:30:38,776
time you choose is a path, like, a

785
00:30:38,776 --> 00:30:41,658
thousand other pass disappear, or, like, an unbelievable

786
00:30:41,658 --> 00:30:44,530
number of disappear, you cannot count. I'm uncomfortable.

787
00:30:45,088 --> 00:30:46,763
And then she's like, okay. So all that

788
00:30:46,763 --> 00:30:48,039
daphne needs to go somewhere. And for her,

789
00:30:48,199 --> 00:30:50,046
she puts it in fiction. And I think

790
00:30:50,126 --> 00:30:52,271
I have that same heart actually. I have

791
00:30:52,271 --> 00:30:54,575
that same emotional drive. Like, I need to

792
00:30:54,575 --> 00:30:56,719
preserve everything. I've kind of like a hoard

793
00:30:56,719 --> 00:30:57,911
when it comes to emotions.

794
00:30:58,563 --> 00:31:01,594
Our experiences our abstract qualities. And I have

795
00:31:01,594 --> 00:31:03,588
to keep everything. And so it has to

796
00:31:03,588 --> 00:31:05,662
go in the book. But really for me,

797
00:31:05,742 --> 00:31:07,018
it goes into a non fiction.

798
00:31:08,229 --> 00:31:10,059
Yeah. Because it's such a shame to give

799
00:31:10,059 --> 00:31:11,810
up an all that love or the love

800
00:31:11,810 --> 00:31:13,720
that I could have imagined existing between ads.

801
00:31:14,118 --> 00:31:15,630
I don't want it to disappear. I want

802
00:31:15,630 --> 00:31:16,983
people to know that. This is what I

803
00:31:16,983 --> 00:31:17,461
wish we had.

804
00:31:19,075 --> 00:31:21,735
Well, before we leave the notion of the

805
00:31:21,875 --> 00:31:22,615
relationship of

806
00:31:23,634 --> 00:31:25,795
representation to the real, 1 1 thing we

807
00:31:25,795 --> 00:31:26,434
learn in the book,

808
00:31:27,329 --> 00:31:29,164
is that you have a memory gap in

809
00:31:29,164 --> 00:31:29,883
your childhood,

810
00:31:30,521 --> 00:31:31,740
where you can't remember

811
00:31:32,118 --> 00:31:34,113
many of the years leading up to a

812
00:31:34,113 --> 00:31:36,998
major scoliosis surgery you had in your teens.

813
00:31:38,190 --> 00:31:39,701
You could say this is 1 of the

814
00:31:39,701 --> 00:31:42,087
sources of suspense in the book. 1 of

815
00:31:42,087 --> 00:31:44,313
the ways the book feels, I think like

816
00:31:44,313 --> 00:31:46,899
a detective memoir or a psychological

817
00:31:47,917 --> 00:31:49,775
excavation where we and you

818
00:31:50,154 --> 00:31:52,791
don't know what we're gonna find as your

819
00:31:52,791 --> 00:31:55,680
sister pushes you more word authenticity on the

820
00:31:55,680 --> 00:31:57,036
page 1 essay to the next.

821
00:31:58,072 --> 00:31:59,668
But 1 thing that jumped out to me

822
00:31:59,668 --> 00:32:02,060
in 1 of your interviews for this book

823
00:32:02,060 --> 00:32:03,677
is that when you attended

824
00:32:04,469 --> 00:32:05,209
a theatrical

825
00:32:05,587 --> 00:32:08,324
performance of your essay, the story of body

826
00:32:09,182 --> 00:32:11,200
that it was only seeing yourself

827
00:32:11,594 --> 00:32:14,728
being performed by another on stage

828
00:32:15,346 --> 00:32:16,804
in a specific scene

829
00:32:17,342 --> 00:32:19,657
that made you realize the gravity of what

830
00:32:19,657 --> 00:32:21,742
you had been through in real life that

831
00:32:21,742 --> 00:32:22,719
the theatrical

832
00:32:23,093 --> 00:32:23,593
performance

833
00:32:24,125 --> 00:32:25,873
had made your own life more real to

834
00:32:25,873 --> 00:32:27,644
you, and I just wanted to

835
00:32:28,509 --> 00:32:30,808
hopefully, give you a moment to talk about

836
00:32:30,808 --> 00:32:32,077
that experience a little bit.

837
00:32:33,267 --> 00:32:35,328
Yeah. That's another 1 of those things where

838
00:32:35,328 --> 00:32:38,059
summer somehow the fiction is reload and the

839
00:32:38,059 --> 00:32:38,880
real life

840
00:32:39,340 --> 00:32:39,660
experience.

841
00:32:40,380 --> 00:32:43,519
So my friend who performed that seeing Xi

842
00:32:44,234 --> 00:32:46,631
1 of the choices he made was, because

843
00:32:46,791 --> 00:32:49,427
I have a number of packing titanium screws

844
00:32:49,427 --> 00:32:50,146
in my bet,

845
00:32:50,785 --> 00:32:53,029
and I was unconscious while the screws are

846
00:32:53,029 --> 00:32:54,858
being put into me. So I didn't experience

847
00:32:54,858 --> 00:32:56,927
it It's almost like time folded in on

848
00:32:56,927 --> 00:32:58,849
itself. Right? You know, you I was lying

849
00:32:58,849 --> 00:33:01,070
there on the operating table, and then the

850
00:33:01,070 --> 00:33:03,054
next moment, like, I was wait and, you

851
00:33:03,054 --> 00:33:04,958
know, life goes back to normal. Nothing has

852
00:33:04,958 --> 00:33:06,069
happened. It's almost like,

853
00:33:06,719 --> 00:33:08,548
a chunk of time was bitten out of

854
00:33:08,548 --> 00:33:11,514
my life. And I think that with She

855
00:33:11,730 --> 00:33:12,128
performance,

856
00:33:12,605 --> 00:33:14,530
because you were, you know, the you're using

857
00:33:14,530 --> 00:33:16,122
your body. So the body lives in time.

858
00:33:16,281 --> 00:33:17,338
Right? Lives in chronological

859
00:33:17,793 --> 00:33:20,897
ordinary time. And he decided he would make

860
00:33:20,897 --> 00:33:22,819
every for every single 1 of the screws

861
00:33:22,819 --> 00:33:24,407
that went into my spine, he would make

862
00:33:24,407 --> 00:33:24,884
a sound.

863
00:33:25,598 --> 00:33:27,822
So because it became, like,

864
00:33:28,537 --> 00:33:30,974
translator into this oral thing that I could

865
00:33:31,094 --> 00:33:31,412
here.

866
00:33:32,048 --> 00:33:34,514
I felt like I really understood how much

867
00:33:34,514 --> 00:33:37,378
time went into fixing my spine. And that

868
00:33:37,378 --> 00:33:39,145
was already You know, he was already shot

869
00:33:39,145 --> 00:33:40,738
it. I was got a surgery was like.

870
00:33:40,897 --> 00:33:42,331
It was a really, really long surgery. Took

871
00:33:42,331 --> 00:33:44,482
at in an entire day by the surgeon.

872
00:33:45,293 --> 00:33:48,577
And something about feeling like the the bread

873
00:33:48,633 --> 00:33:49,133
and

874
00:33:49,587 --> 00:33:50,087
the

875
00:33:51,258 --> 00:33:53,109
kind of weight of time

876
00:33:53,658 --> 00:33:55,011
I did have brought a new kind of

877
00:33:55,011 --> 00:33:57,556
grief that At that point I had somehow

878
00:33:57,556 --> 00:33:59,942
kept for myself because, you know, when I'm,

879
00:34:00,594 --> 00:34:02,832
a book. Right? Things can happen so fast.

880
00:34:02,991 --> 00:34:04,270
You can move from, like, 1 year to

881
00:34:04,270 --> 00:34:06,427
the next year from sentence to sentence.

882
00:34:06,987 --> 00:34:08,345
Time is just like a thing you play

883
00:34:08,345 --> 00:34:10,508
with. It's like something you tackle, and then

884
00:34:10,508 --> 00:34:11,939
you put it down, and then you you

885
00:34:11,939 --> 00:34:13,927
move on to something else. But for people

886
00:34:13,927 --> 00:34:16,152
who who are working with their bodies,

887
00:34:16,804 --> 00:34:19,110
Time is it's like the limiting factor. It's

888
00:34:19,110 --> 00:34:21,496
the biggest enemy of the body time. Time

889
00:34:21,496 --> 00:34:22,849
is the thing I making me die in

890
00:34:22,849 --> 00:34:25,018
the end, you know, Mh. And I think

891
00:34:25,018 --> 00:34:27,255
as a writer, sometimes I forget about the

892
00:34:27,255 --> 00:34:29,332
reality of time because I'm no master time

893
00:34:29,332 --> 00:34:29,971
when at writing.

894
00:34:30,530 --> 00:34:31,030
So

895
00:34:31,344 --> 00:34:33,338
think working with that person, S, was a

896
00:34:33,338 --> 00:34:35,970
really special experience for me. I feel like

897
00:34:35,970 --> 00:34:38,283
almost he had a point of view of

898
00:34:38,283 --> 00:34:40,277
my life that I was not able to

899
00:34:40,277 --> 00:34:40,777
have

900
00:34:41,488 --> 00:34:43,801
And because of, like, the clothes, I've hit

901
00:34:43,801 --> 00:34:45,954
on relationship with his body, I could access

902
00:34:45,954 --> 00:34:48,346
something that for my own self protection, I

903
00:34:48,346 --> 00:34:49,781
had hidden away from myself,

904
00:34:51,072 --> 00:34:52,369
Well, there are actual

905
00:34:52,745 --> 00:34:55,374
fictional influences to this book. You've mentioned also.

906
00:34:55,613 --> 00:34:58,481
You've mentioned the book here S by Susanna

907
00:34:58,640 --> 00:34:59,698
Clark, and also

908
00:35:00,169 --> 00:35:02,164
And also that at 1 point you binge

909
00:35:02,164 --> 00:35:05,436
on both Ag Christie Books and Tv adaptations.

910
00:35:05,596 --> 00:35:07,931
So how how would you speak to the

911
00:35:08,481 --> 00:35:11,420
influences of of these other fictional books on

912
00:35:11,420 --> 00:35:13,009
on this non fictional book.

913
00:35:13,883 --> 00:35:14,860
So with Per,

914
00:35:15,249 --> 00:35:17,079
the thing that I love about P is

915
00:35:17,079 --> 00:35:19,387
the bowl building element. So for anyone who's

916
00:35:19,387 --> 00:35:20,978
not ready people. I'll give a very quick

917
00:35:20,978 --> 00:35:22,967
summary. It's just about a man who lives

918
00:35:22,967 --> 00:35:25,608
in a giant house. It's a huge house.

919
00:35:26,164 --> 00:35:27,994
And he wonders around room room to room

920
00:35:27,994 --> 00:35:29,664
and there are lots of statues in the

921
00:35:29,664 --> 00:35:32,130
house, but there also tidal waves, know, there

922
00:35:32,130 --> 00:35:34,318
flock of boots, It's a house that basically

923
00:35:34,376 --> 00:35:35,813
stands in for the entire world.

924
00:35:36,451 --> 00:35:38,845
And this man is, like, a very innocent

925
00:35:38,845 --> 00:35:41,334
man, and he just wonders around. He He

926
00:35:41,334 --> 00:35:42,691
pray there's the house because it is his

927
00:35:42,691 --> 00:35:44,127
world. It's his the god. You know? He

928
00:35:44,127 --> 00:35:46,601
believes the house created him. And he he

929
00:35:46,601 --> 00:35:47,958
gives a lot of respected at house, and

930
00:35:47,958 --> 00:35:49,475
he generates the house basically.

931
00:35:49,808 --> 00:35:51,710
But 1 day, a little bit of doubt

932
00:35:51,710 --> 00:35:53,930
is cast and due this worldview because there's

933
00:35:53,930 --> 00:35:55,674
another man in the house, and the man

934
00:35:55,674 --> 00:35:56,967
calls him this named p.

935
00:35:57,513 --> 00:35:59,021
And the character that it's like, I just

936
00:35:59,021 --> 00:36:00,529
feel like this is not my name. You

937
00:36:00,529 --> 00:36:02,672
just has an implicit feeling that this is

938
00:36:02,672 --> 00:36:04,869
wrong. And I love that because I think

939
00:36:04,990 --> 00:36:06,670
to then our o'clock is actually telling a

940
00:36:06,670 --> 00:36:07,170
really

941
00:36:08,030 --> 00:36:10,670
it's a very like universal experience of what

942
00:36:10,670 --> 00:36:12,369
it feels like to be lonely

943
00:36:12,924 --> 00:36:15,079
And also what it feels like do not

944
00:36:15,079 --> 00:36:16,595
know who you are to live in a

945
00:36:16,595 --> 00:36:18,829
world or somebody else making, and yet to

946
00:36:18,829 --> 00:36:20,106
believe that that is normal the world.

947
00:36:20,759 --> 00:36:22,670
You know, do do not have a grasp

948
00:36:22,670 --> 00:36:24,262
or, like, what is yours and what is

949
00:36:24,262 --> 00:36:26,411
the others? And what has been given to

950
00:36:26,411 --> 00:36:26,570
you.

951
00:36:27,367 --> 00:36:29,950
And I think that This is such a

952
00:36:30,005 --> 00:36:32,703
a universal and also complex idea. I think

953
00:36:32,703 --> 00:36:34,211
you could write like a thousand books about

954
00:36:34,211 --> 00:36:36,378
this, but instead she built a whole world

955
00:36:36,592 --> 00:36:40,032
rather than kind of dissect the idea, she

956
00:36:40,032 --> 00:36:42,823
built something creative and a new thing to

957
00:36:42,823 --> 00:36:44,259
represent an idea. She built a house, You

958
00:36:44,259 --> 00:36:46,253
know, and I loved it. I think for

959
00:36:46,253 --> 00:36:46,651
me,

960
00:36:47,464 --> 00:36:49,856
that's something that happens in fiction that has

961
00:36:49,856 --> 00:36:51,690
always drawn me to fiction. You can see,

962
00:36:51,850 --> 00:36:53,945
like, I was talking about with the advertisements

963
00:36:54,322 --> 00:36:56,316
on the public chats in singapore of the

964
00:36:56,316 --> 00:36:58,428
exact same You see someone with a hammer

965
00:36:58,487 --> 00:37:00,485
and nail and you said I'm like, building

966
00:37:00,485 --> 00:37:02,723
they're building a wall and that's so, like,

967
00:37:02,963 --> 00:37:04,561
intriguing to me. I love to see that

968
00:37:04,561 --> 00:37:05,440
process. Yeah yeah.

969
00:37:06,094 --> 00:37:07,847
It makes me feel like I'm living. And

970
00:37:07,926 --> 00:37:09,998
I watch people for do it. Yeah. And

971
00:37:09,998 --> 00:37:11,830
pretty detective stories, I think what I need

972
00:37:11,830 --> 00:37:12,728
was comfort

973
00:37:13,360 --> 00:37:14,719
while I get from those stories of comfort...

974
00:37:14,960 --> 00:37:16,239
I hate the read them also when I

975
00:37:16,239 --> 00:37:17,280
was a tile Actually,

976
00:37:17,760 --> 00:37:19,840
I binge read the entire that I read

977
00:37:19,840 --> 00:37:21,533
off, I get At could Facebook when I

978
00:37:21,533 --> 00:37:23,124
at the child. I think the because there's

979
00:37:23,124 --> 00:37:25,352
so much comfort built into the promise that

980
00:37:25,352 --> 00:37:27,580
somebody knows where the story is going. And

981
00:37:27,580 --> 00:37:28,933
even if it takes a lot of duncan,

982
00:37:29,092 --> 00:37:31,576
you know that a detective almost always softer

983
00:37:31,576 --> 00:37:32,135
and mystery.

984
00:37:32,693 --> 00:37:34,607
And, you know, at the very last moment

985
00:37:34,607 --> 00:37:36,043
and the right clue all led on his

986
00:37:36,043 --> 00:37:38,117
lap. Should get before laid up, but he'll

987
00:37:38,117 --> 00:37:39,233
be like, oh, I know who did it.

988
00:37:39,393 --> 00:37:41,643
And I feel like When I was working

989
00:37:41,643 --> 00:37:43,401
on this story game, I didn't have this.

990
00:37:44,121 --> 00:37:46,119
I didn't have this feeling because I was

991
00:37:46,119 --> 00:37:48,596
venturing out into the unknown, especially at the

992
00:37:48,596 --> 00:37:51,006
dialogue section. I really didn't know if it

993
00:37:51,006 --> 00:37:53,081
was for anything. And I also as I

994
00:37:53,081 --> 00:37:54,916
said before, I didn't know who would the

995
00:37:54,916 --> 00:37:56,911
characters were. I didn't know who the little

996
00:37:56,911 --> 00:37:57,390
girl was.

997
00:37:57,963 --> 00:37:59,879
And because of there, I just needed to

998
00:37:59,879 --> 00:38:01,635
have this feeling of, okay, if somebody knows

999
00:38:01,635 --> 00:38:03,311
what's going to happen. And I had to

1000
00:38:03,311 --> 00:38:04,907
believe that I could feel like Get christie

1001
00:38:04,907 --> 00:38:06,909
accuracy. If the thing, inside me that created

1002
00:38:06,909 --> 00:38:07,622
at the beginning,

1003
00:38:08,256 --> 00:38:09,524
what's the same thing that would end the

1004
00:38:09,524 --> 00:38:11,347
book, then, you know, I have to trust

1005
00:38:11,347 --> 00:38:12,615
it that knows where it's going?

1006
00:38:13,740 --> 00:38:16,144
Well, with the second essay, your

1007
00:38:16,517 --> 00:38:19,929
best American essays notable essay on being in

1008
00:38:19,929 --> 00:38:20,881
love with a white man,

1009
00:38:21,848 --> 00:38:24,093
we already see a little bit of shift

1010
00:38:24,148 --> 00:38:26,289
in how you write an essay.

1011
00:38:26,924 --> 00:38:27,821
It's still

1012
00:38:28,273 --> 00:38:29,407
intellectual and political

1013
00:38:30,114 --> 00:38:31,093
an exterior

1014
00:38:31,471 --> 00:38:33,945
in some ways, but it is also about

1015
00:38:33,945 --> 00:38:35,302
meeting your future husband.

1016
00:38:36,260 --> 00:38:38,436
We get your an anxiety idea about whether

1017
00:38:38,989 --> 00:38:41,650
you can even now talk about d

1018
00:38:42,750 --> 00:38:44,510
or be on the right side of history

1019
00:38:44,510 --> 00:38:46,190
if you're married to a white man.

1020
00:38:46,843 --> 00:38:48,854
And also choosing to live in Europe

1021
00:38:49,627 --> 00:38:51,536
about how you meeting Thomas,

1022
00:38:52,331 --> 00:38:53,309
sort of mimic

1023
00:38:53,779 --> 00:38:58,084
the fe Singapore meeting Sir Stamford Raffle, the

1024
00:38:58,084 --> 00:39:00,396
the man who founded the Port city in

1025
00:39:00,396 --> 00:39:01,135
its modern

1026
00:39:01,512 --> 00:39:01,671
incarnation.

1027
00:39:02,800 --> 00:39:04,731
And we're with you as you explore

1028
00:39:05,344 --> 00:39:06,718
this gap between

1029
00:39:07,251 --> 00:39:09,636
what you know you should want and what

1030
00:39:09,636 --> 00:39:10,748
you actually want.

1031
00:39:11,479 --> 00:39:13,469
So I was hoping maybe before we talk

1032
00:39:13,469 --> 00:39:15,220
a little bit about this essay,

1033
00:39:16,095 --> 00:39:17,369
if we could hear a little bit from

1034
00:39:17,369 --> 00:39:18,642
it. Yeah. Sure.

1035
00:39:19,214 --> 00:39:20,748
What I was thinking was

1036
00:39:21,282 --> 00:39:22,418
42

1037
00:39:22,555 --> 00:39:23,907
to 44.

1038
00:39:25,180 --> 00:39:25,418
Okay.

1039
00:39:26,706 --> 00:39:29,569
Nobody's ever asked for this section, But but

1040
00:39:29,569 --> 00:39:31,000
actually, a lot of Singapore and people have

1041
00:39:31,000 --> 00:39:32,590
told me this is their favorite section. I

1042
00:39:32,590 --> 00:39:34,499
know. Yeah. My friends are.

1043
00:39:35,056 --> 00:39:35,533
I ordered it.

1044
00:39:36,264 --> 00:39:36,423
Okay.

1045
00:39:38,976 --> 00:39:41,289
There is a template for how stories like

1046
00:39:41,289 --> 00:39:42,326
mine should and fall.

1047
00:39:42,963 --> 00:39:45,675
A white European men meets a southeast Asian

1048
00:39:45,675 --> 00:39:45,915
woman.

1049
00:39:46,648 --> 00:39:48,402
In life as in language,

1050
00:39:48,881 --> 00:39:51,593
subject and object, click neatly into place.

1051
00:39:52,470 --> 00:39:55,182
Man and women become the seeker and the

1052
00:39:55,182 --> 00:39:55,921
sore after

1053
00:39:56,471 --> 00:39:59,569
Europe and Asia, the explorer and the explored.

1054
00:40:00,601 --> 00:40:02,825
I grew up believing in the pre nature

1055
00:40:02,825 --> 00:40:03,619
of these roles,

1056
00:40:04,510 --> 00:40:06,269
As a school child in Singapore,

1057
00:40:06,670 --> 00:40:08,590
I had learned that these pairing were rooted

1058
00:40:08,590 --> 00:40:09,150
in history.

1059
00:40:09,630 --> 00:40:11,550
Our own nation had once been a mute,

1060
00:40:11,710 --> 00:40:14,202
but lovely island in Asia, waiting to be

1061
00:40:14,202 --> 00:40:17,153
colonized by an English man named Stamford raffle.

1062
00:40:17,951 --> 00:40:20,583
Before his arrival, might teacher's it. We had

1063
00:40:20,583 --> 00:40:23,056
the nothing more than a primitive fishing village.

1064
00:40:23,707 --> 00:40:24,921
For in some vital

1065
00:40:25,453 --> 00:40:27,199
existential sense that could not be ignored.

1066
00:40:27,914 --> 00:40:30,081
But in other ways, we had been hopefully

1067
00:40:30,136 --> 00:40:32,041
endowed with the right kinds of feminine traits.

1068
00:40:32,454 --> 00:40:35,490
A beautiful form for instance, and sun baked

1069
00:40:35,490 --> 00:40:35,969
slowness,

1070
00:40:36,449 --> 00:40:38,306
a dripping tropical for.

1071
00:40:39,499 --> 00:40:41,896
For centuries, we seem to do nothing but

1072
00:40:41,896 --> 00:40:44,053
sit pretty on the equator bid doing our

1073
00:40:44,053 --> 00:40:44,293
time.

1074
00:40:45,012 --> 00:40:47,024
Then 1 day it all paid off. A

1075
00:40:47,104 --> 00:40:49,022
European rounded the corner with a clinic in

1076
00:40:49,022 --> 00:40:51,020
his eye and delivered us to the world.

1077
00:40:52,778 --> 00:40:55,255
If pre colonial Singapore taught me a sense

1078
00:40:55,255 --> 00:40:55,735
of self,

1079
00:40:56,469 --> 00:40:59,510
Then Raphael furnished my earliest ideas about White

1080
00:40:59,510 --> 00:41:00,949
and what to expect from them.

1081
00:41:01,909 --> 00:41:04,309
Sitting behind my desk and sweating into my

1082
00:41:04,309 --> 00:41:06,802
school pin 4, I was captivated by the

1083
00:41:06,802 --> 00:41:07,921
legacy of his desire.

1084
00:41:08,560 --> 00:41:10,478
Here was the white man revealed as a

1085
00:41:10,478 --> 00:41:13,605
glut, or himself on the other. Sailing from

1086
00:41:13,605 --> 00:41:15,912
shore to shore and hopes of consuming the

1087
00:41:15,912 --> 00:41:16,151
world.

1088
00:41:17,026 --> 00:41:19,015
I thought about the force of this desire,

1089
00:41:19,492 --> 00:41:21,503
which had lifted us out of the darkness

1090
00:41:21,815 --> 00:41:24,055
and into the bright lights of modern statehood.

1091
00:41:24,775 --> 00:41:27,094
I thought about the little fishing village opening

1092
00:41:27,094 --> 00:41:29,414
her mouth for the first time and finding

1093
00:41:29,414 --> 00:41:30,614
out that she could speak.

1094
00:41:31,429 --> 00:41:34,141
I am. I imagined her saying blinking into

1095
00:41:34,141 --> 00:41:35,657
the light. I am.

1096
00:41:36,295 --> 00:41:36,694
I am.

1097
00:41:39,102 --> 00:41:40,399
This story of Singapore

1098
00:41:40,935 --> 00:41:42,688
is over 2 decades all now.

1099
00:41:43,405 --> 00:41:45,796
1 rally encounters it in circulation anymore.

1100
00:41:46,529 --> 00:41:49,506
These days, the government's official line has shifted

1101
00:41:49,885 --> 00:41:51,963
so that the great are learning a very

1102
00:41:51,963 --> 00:41:53,880
different tale of how their nation came to

1103
00:41:53,880 --> 00:41:54,120
be.

1104
00:41:55,013 --> 00:41:57,479
The textbooks paint a picture that is 700,

1105
00:41:57,797 --> 00:41:59,150
not 200 years old.

1106
00:41:59,786 --> 00:42:01,615
They read that the kingdoms of the world

1107
00:42:01,615 --> 00:42:03,698
has been tracing through our island since the

1108
00:42:03,698 --> 00:42:04,675
fourteenth century

1109
00:42:05,050 --> 00:42:06,561
long before raf set sail.

1110
00:42:07,753 --> 00:42:10,695
Perhaps then, they are also absorbing different ideas

1111
00:42:10,695 --> 00:42:11,332
about desire.

1112
00:42:11,903 --> 00:42:13,655
What it is and how it comes to

1113
00:42:13,655 --> 00:42:15,884
be, who gets to wield it and who

1114
00:42:15,884 --> 00:42:16,840
merely suffers is it.

1115
00:42:17,636 --> 00:42:19,148
I have my suspicions though.

1116
00:42:20,119 --> 00:42:22,586
A few years ago, at the state funded

1117
00:42:22,586 --> 00:42:25,532
by Centennial to promote Singapore history, I seem

1118
00:42:25,532 --> 00:42:27,841
to recognize the previous story from my textbooks.

1119
00:42:28,333 --> 00:42:30,952
Lengthen by addendum, but otherwise unchanged.

1120
00:42:31,824 --> 00:42:34,919
Earlier explorers were mentioned with more emphasis than

1121
00:42:34,919 --> 00:42:37,554
usual. And other statues now rose to join

1122
00:42:37,554 --> 00:42:39,778
the sculpt to of raffle that stands by

1123
00:42:39,778 --> 00:42:40,731
the Singapore river,

1124
00:42:41,287 --> 00:42:42,025
But ultimately,

1125
00:42:42,399 --> 00:42:44,702
it was still raffle we reign supreme over

1126
00:42:44,702 --> 00:42:45,593
the activities.

1127
00:42:46,231 --> 00:42:46,731
Still

1128
00:42:47,108 --> 00:42:48,943
were proved impossible to criticized.

1129
00:42:49,581 --> 00:42:52,133
How could we the Gl z public exhibition

1130
00:42:52,133 --> 00:42:54,127
seem to ask with a ringing of their

1131
00:42:54,127 --> 00:42:54,446
hands,

1132
00:42:55,179 --> 00:42:56,932
How could we condemn the white man who

1133
00:42:56,932 --> 00:42:59,242
imagined our city and pointed it in the

1134
00:42:59,242 --> 00:43:00,277
direction of things to come?

1135
00:43:02,364 --> 00:43:05,265
The struggle is to denounce that which ultimately

1136
00:43:05,724 --> 00:43:07,804
I ushered in a good and present selves.

1137
00:43:08,525 --> 00:43:10,445
So we hold on to the white men

1138
00:43:10,445 --> 00:43:12,777
who in the midst of his greed ina

1139
00:43:12,777 --> 00:43:14,696
inadvertently showed us the way from third world

1140
00:43:14,696 --> 00:43:15,175
to first.

1141
00:43:16,134 --> 00:43:18,052
His landing is no longer a fiery re

1142
00:43:18,052 --> 00:43:20,610
dawning are the ancient beginnings of the world.

1143
00:43:21,265 --> 00:43:23,985
The white European man no longer declared the

1144
00:43:23,985 --> 00:43:24,304
fear.

1145
00:43:24,945 --> 00:43:27,265
Our new stories that he initiates are paris,

1146
00:43:27,425 --> 00:43:28,625
the land under his feet.

1147
00:43:29,278 --> 00:43:31,266
Releasing her into the life that she always

1148
00:43:31,266 --> 00:43:32,618
should have had in the first place.

1149
00:43:33,413 --> 00:43:35,163
His role has softened from that of a

1150
00:43:35,163 --> 00:43:36,833
god into that of a catalyst.

1151
00:43:37,484 --> 00:43:40,110
His presence figured as a necessary condition for

1152
00:43:40,110 --> 00:43:42,259
the village to grow up and blossom them

1153
00:43:42,259 --> 00:43:43,453
in her own tan skin.

1154
00:43:44,249 --> 00:43:46,014
In my own life, It is the second

1155
00:43:46,014 --> 00:43:48,002
story that has proven truly insidious,

1156
00:43:48,797 --> 00:43:51,819
difficult to announce for standing so dangerously close

1157
00:43:51,819 --> 00:43:52,297
to the true.

1158
00:43:54,221 --> 00:43:56,527
And listening to show we T read from

1159
00:43:56,527 --> 00:43:57,323
the story game.

1160
00:43:58,516 --> 00:44:01,792
So pretty early in the book. Having only

1161
00:44:01,792 --> 00:44:04,493
encountered the first several essays and been into

1162
00:44:04,493 --> 00:44:06,796
the room now many times within in between

1163
00:44:06,796 --> 00:44:06,955
them.

1164
00:44:07,750 --> 00:44:09,894
We not only understand that there's a memory

1165
00:44:09,894 --> 00:44:10,132
gap.

1166
00:44:10,863 --> 00:44:11,921
A place where

1167
00:44:12,377 --> 00:44:15,882
your character can't go within themselves that your

1168
00:44:15,882 --> 00:44:17,555
sister is pushing you toward.

1169
00:44:18,112 --> 00:44:19,648
But also that there are ways

1170
00:44:20,280 --> 00:44:22,440
you have learned to present yourself that aren't

1171
00:44:22,440 --> 00:44:22,679
true.

1172
00:44:23,719 --> 00:44:25,159
And I even wonder if some of these

1173
00:44:25,159 --> 00:44:28,039
ways you present yourself that are false might

1174
00:44:28,039 --> 00:44:31,108
be part of the mechanism of preserving the

1175
00:44:31,167 --> 00:44:32,225
the memory

1176
00:44:33,081 --> 00:44:33,320
space.

1177
00:44:34,197 --> 00:44:36,909
But either way, your sister sort of calls

1178
00:44:36,909 --> 00:44:38,106
bullshit on the second essay.

1179
00:44:38,920 --> 00:44:40,300
An essay that is

1180
00:44:40,680 --> 00:44:43,660
quite nuanced about questions of race and nationality

1181
00:44:43,960 --> 00:44:45,719
and about the ways theory,

1182
00:44:46,614 --> 00:44:49,407
and embody desire can be at across purposes,

1183
00:44:50,444 --> 00:44:52,460
but also 1 that completely

1184
00:44:53,077 --> 00:44:53,636
your marriage.

1185
00:44:54,289 --> 00:44:55,188
Which we learn

1186
00:44:55,645 --> 00:44:56,544
in the room

1187
00:44:56,921 --> 00:44:58,436
is actually in disarray.

1188
00:44:59,473 --> 00:45:01,707
Something we would never guess from the essay.

1189
00:45:01,946 --> 00:45:03,701
And similarly in the third story,

1190
00:45:04,274 --> 00:45:06,506
we get Singapore as a place, you love

1191
00:45:06,506 --> 00:45:08,340
to be from and to return to.

1192
00:45:08,978 --> 00:45:10,892
But later in the room, we learn that

1193
00:45:10,892 --> 00:45:14,097
in reality, you hated it. That it felt

1194
00:45:14,097 --> 00:45:14,815
so destroying,

1195
00:45:15,453 --> 00:45:16,910
authoritarian, hyper capitalist,

1196
00:45:17,367 --> 00:45:18,483
anti queer and more.

1197
00:45:19,440 --> 00:45:20,339
We discover

1198
00:45:20,717 --> 00:45:22,572
we're with an unreliable narrator

1199
00:45:23,284 --> 00:45:26,155
but 1 who is unreliable to herself ultimately,

1200
00:45:26,315 --> 00:45:29,048
and yet 1 who also has this

1201
00:45:29,824 --> 00:45:31,202
room of accountability.

1202
00:45:32,137 --> 00:45:32,956
So we have

1203
00:45:33,907 --> 00:45:35,364
Absences where language

1204
00:45:35,901 --> 00:45:38,294
can't yet be formed by the person speaking,

1205
00:45:39,012 --> 00:45:41,325
and we have someone also at odds with

1206
00:45:41,325 --> 00:45:42,862
how they use language

1207
00:45:43,492 --> 00:45:46,118
with regards to what they know about themselves.

1208
00:45:47,152 --> 00:45:49,164
And you've linked some of this explicitly

1209
00:45:49,619 --> 00:45:50,358
to trauma

1210
00:45:51,066 --> 00:45:53,313
but also some of it to cultural forces

1211
00:45:53,608 --> 00:45:54,822
and how these both

1212
00:45:55,275 --> 00:45:55,514
intersect.

1213
00:45:56,228 --> 00:45:58,714
In the book, you talk about how school

1214
00:45:59,263 --> 00:46:01,573
began at Sunrise and went to 10PM,

1215
00:46:02,051 --> 00:46:03,746
that at age 9 children

1216
00:46:04,362 --> 00:46:06,114
would be sorted into gifted,

1217
00:46:06,990 --> 00:46:08,208
express or normal

1218
00:46:09,234 --> 00:46:11,777
you've written outside of the book about how

1219
00:46:11,777 --> 00:46:15,534
at piano conservatory, they would physically and verbally

1220
00:46:15,750 --> 00:46:17,123
c you placing

1221
00:46:17,434 --> 00:46:19,903
thumb tax on the piano keys to punish

1222
00:46:19,903 --> 00:46:21,337
you when wrong notes were played.

1223
00:46:22,372 --> 00:46:25,182
In your interview with Claire Chi at electric

1224
00:46:25,399 --> 00:46:25,558
literature,

1225
00:46:26,609 --> 00:46:28,920
you talk about how being shu into the

1226
00:46:28,920 --> 00:46:30,456
gifted track in school

1227
00:46:30,833 --> 00:46:31,630
very early,

1228
00:46:32,348 --> 00:46:34,022
made you want to live up to the

1229
00:46:34,022 --> 00:46:34,522
label

1230
00:46:34,835 --> 00:46:36,752
that was given to you rather than to

1231
00:46:36,752 --> 00:46:39,489
figure out what you would want to authentically

1232
00:46:39,547 --> 00:46:40,746
be on your own terms.

1233
00:46:41,878 --> 00:46:43,860
And you've also talked outside the book about

1234
00:46:43,860 --> 00:46:44,360
how

1235
00:46:45,286 --> 00:46:48,536
humanitarian Singapore is, something you've alluded to today

1236
00:46:48,536 --> 00:46:48,774
already.

1237
00:46:49,424 --> 00:46:51,657
That lots of the messaging is through the

1238
00:46:51,657 --> 00:46:52,694
we pronoun.

1239
00:46:53,412 --> 00:46:55,964
Unlike the pledge of allegiance here that begins

1240
00:46:55,964 --> 00:46:58,379
with the word I, the pledge in Singapore

1241
00:46:58,676 --> 00:46:59,567
begins with we,

1242
00:47:00,442 --> 00:47:02,055
and it was from this place

1243
00:47:02,668 --> 00:47:04,734
that you started from and figuring out who

1244
00:47:04,734 --> 00:47:05,132
you were.

1245
00:47:05,768 --> 00:47:08,171
A structure that the book mimics and so

1246
00:47:08,171 --> 00:47:10,584
insofar as the essay start very exterior

1247
00:47:11,120 --> 00:47:12,157
and become less so.

1248
00:47:13,193 --> 00:47:14,708
Talk to us more about how you see

1249
00:47:14,708 --> 00:47:15,527
either the

1250
00:47:15,917 --> 00:47:19,883
culture of Singapore generally or its educational approach,

1251
00:47:20,518 --> 00:47:21,469
more specifically,

1252
00:47:22,659 --> 00:47:23,635
becoming an element

1253
00:47:23,944 --> 00:47:26,335
of the difficulty of presenting yourself,

1254
00:47:27,132 --> 00:47:30,958
failing or presenting yourself unhappy on the page.

1255
00:47:32,246 --> 00:47:33,358
This such a good question.

1256
00:47:35,183 --> 00:47:37,088
Especially now so many years have been leaving

1257
00:47:37,088 --> 00:47:39,867
home, Like, I moved to the Uk 12

1258
00:47:39,867 --> 00:47:41,792
years ago now. I feel like, I'm not

1259
00:47:41,792 --> 00:47:43,548
the best person tell you about what life

1260
00:47:43,548 --> 00:47:45,224
it's like there anymore. There are people who

1261
00:47:45,224 --> 00:47:46,821
can do it much better than me. And

1262
00:47:46,821 --> 00:47:48,817
so I guess I'm a bit wary about

1263
00:47:48,817 --> 00:47:49,317
speaking

1264
00:47:49,868 --> 00:47:52,010
about what it's like now. But for me,

1265
00:47:52,961 --> 00:47:55,341
in terms of the education system that, yeah,

1266
00:47:55,579 --> 00:47:56,476
it had a very

1267
00:47:56,864 --> 00:47:58,845
strong impact on me, and I didn't even

1268
00:47:58,845 --> 00:48:00,430
realize for many years.

1269
00:48:01,539 --> 00:48:04,210
There was a kind of national system that

1270
00:48:04,329 --> 00:48:06,554
assume that all people have the same kind

1271
00:48:06,554 --> 00:48:08,541
of intelligence. That's the first the first thing.

1272
00:48:08,779 --> 00:48:10,369
It does assume that there is 1 kind

1273
00:48:10,369 --> 00:48:12,776
of intelligence, and it's the kind of intelligence

1274
00:48:12,832 --> 00:48:14,755
that can be captured on a piece of

1275
00:48:14,755 --> 00:48:15,074
paper.

1276
00:48:15,790 --> 00:48:17,619
And then also that it makes a further

1277
00:48:17,619 --> 00:48:19,847
jump, which is to say that well the

1278
00:48:19,847 --> 00:48:22,648
level this kind of intelligence you have will

1279
00:48:22,648 --> 00:48:24,559
determine the role you play in society, for

1280
00:48:24,559 --> 00:48:25,992
the rest of your life, which I think

1281
00:48:25,992 --> 00:48:28,675
it's a really terrifying message. Not only for

1282
00:48:29,035 --> 00:48:30,474
anybody pick hear. But for a 9 year

1283
00:48:30,474 --> 00:48:32,875
old to hear because it feels like everything

1284
00:48:32,875 --> 00:48:34,875
you do rides on on this 1 piece

1285
00:48:34,875 --> 00:48:36,155
of paper that you're holding.

1286
00:48:36,795 --> 00:48:37,295
And

1287
00:48:37,609 --> 00:48:40,627
you know, I mentioned that particular streaming exam

1288
00:48:40,627 --> 00:48:41,739
because I think it's the most

1289
00:48:42,771 --> 00:48:45,764
unusual example, for an outsider to hear, but

1290
00:48:45,963 --> 00:48:48,661
this dynamic was something that was repeated constantly

1291
00:48:48,661 --> 00:48:50,328
in my childhood. There were always more and

1292
00:48:50,328 --> 00:48:52,392
more pieces of paper that you had to

1293
00:48:52,392 --> 00:48:53,924
get to prove your worthiness.

1294
00:48:54,789 --> 00:48:56,938
To, you know, rise up through their ranks

1295
00:48:56,938 --> 00:48:59,109
and get a powerful position in society

1296
00:48:59,644 --> 00:49:00,519
to put it very cool.

1297
00:49:01,077 --> 00:49:02,828
And I think that for me, for many,

1298
00:49:02,987 --> 00:49:05,710
many years, this actually prevent me from understanding

1299
00:49:05,710 --> 00:49:08,418
how my own form of intelligence works. You

1300
00:49:08,418 --> 00:49:10,251
know, like, actually, I had to go through...

1301
00:49:10,650 --> 00:49:12,336
As you said I study in But and

1302
00:49:12,416 --> 00:49:14,402
I also study in Cambridge actually, that is...

1303
00:49:14,640 --> 00:49:17,421
I'm not something I usually tell people, but

1304
00:49:17,421 --> 00:49:19,169
the reason why I don't usually help people

1305
00:49:19,169 --> 00:49:21,414
is because I think that going through those

1306
00:49:21,414 --> 00:49:23,815
2 academic institutions, The main thing it showed

1307
00:49:23,815 --> 00:49:26,054
me was actually that, like, the kind of

1308
00:49:26,054 --> 00:49:28,855
intelligence I possess is not really like academic

1309
00:49:28,855 --> 00:49:30,946
intelligence. Actually, it's not the kind of intelligence

1310
00:49:30,946 --> 00:49:32,702
that I was for and that I was

1311
00:49:32,702 --> 00:49:34,059
set to put this by this state when

1312
00:49:34,219 --> 00:49:36,055
I was young. I think I actually have

1313
00:49:36,055 --> 00:49:38,450
a lot of, like, intelligence from doing things.

1314
00:49:38,864 --> 00:49:40,220
But you see that in the story game

1315
00:49:40,220 --> 00:49:41,735
who because I am living the book in

1316
00:49:41,735 --> 00:49:43,411
real time while writing it. I have to

1317
00:49:43,411 --> 00:49:45,405
lift things to really understand them. I had

1318
00:49:45,405 --> 00:49:47,000
to do them with my hands. Mean I

1319
00:49:47,000 --> 00:49:48,356
was a pianist, so it kind of checked

1320
00:49:48,356 --> 00:49:50,690
out. I have to, like, live it with

1321
00:49:50,690 --> 00:49:52,769
my body, and then III

1322
00:49:52,769 --> 00:49:54,530
grasp the essence of the thing, But I'm

1323
00:49:54,530 --> 00:49:55,809
not good the fact. I'm not going with

1324
00:49:55,809 --> 00:49:57,489
rec cow. And I feel like,

1325
00:49:58,624 --> 00:50:00,777
The story game is so interesting because it's...

1326
00:50:01,096 --> 00:50:02,691
You know, writing a book, I am playing

1327
00:50:02,691 --> 00:50:04,764
into this tradition of academic excellence.

1328
00:50:05,721 --> 00:50:07,555
But I took many years do kind of,

1329
00:50:07,635 --> 00:50:09,005
like, extract myself wrong.

1330
00:50:10,200 --> 00:50:10,700
But

1331
00:50:11,077 --> 00:50:12,591
I guess that the story game, you know,

1332
00:50:12,751 --> 00:50:14,265
some people on good have fitness this. Is

1333
00:50:14,265 --> 00:50:15,872
that, like, it's not really a book not

1334
00:50:15,872 --> 00:50:17,778
a for people who usually like them. I

1335
00:50:17,778 --> 00:50:19,683
they're like, yeah. I don't usually like reading.

1336
00:50:19,921 --> 00:50:21,588
I don't usually like books. So I like

1337
00:50:21,588 --> 00:50:23,176
this book. And I feel like whenever I,

1338
00:50:23,256 --> 00:50:24,739
hear that I feel like that's such a

1339
00:50:24,860 --> 00:50:27,340
comfortable because that you authentic in my own

1340
00:50:27,340 --> 00:50:28,860
experience I'm writing this book. I thought I

1341
00:50:28,860 --> 00:50:31,119
was writing a really dense. A academic thing

1342
00:50:31,179 --> 00:50:33,340
that would, you know, be, like the final

1343
00:50:33,340 --> 00:50:35,193
stamp of approval that, like, Yes. You made

1344
00:50:35,193 --> 00:50:37,911
it. You are what you were promised that

1345
00:50:37,911 --> 00:50:39,769
you would be, and you have achieved your

1346
00:50:39,829 --> 00:50:41,667
potential. But it turned out to be a

1347
00:50:41,667 --> 00:50:43,505
completely different thing. I realized that the standards

1348
00:50:43,665 --> 00:50:45,430
I was trying to live do were not

1349
00:50:45,430 --> 00:50:47,570
standards that I like, and, you know, they're

1350
00:50:47,570 --> 00:50:49,021
not standard that make me happy.

1351
00:50:49,948 --> 00:50:51,692
Mh. I'm much more comfortable. Like,

1352
00:50:52,503 --> 00:50:54,736
finding my way through, like, real life experience.

1353
00:50:55,295 --> 00:50:56,570
And I think the book is a book

1354
00:50:56,570 --> 00:50:58,565
that kind of breaks the founder, you know,

1355
00:50:58,804 --> 00:51:01,138
between the text and life in that way

1356
00:51:01,197 --> 00:51:01,889
because of this

1357
00:51:02,565 --> 00:51:04,814
You you wrote this very moving essay

1358
00:51:05,188 --> 00:51:07,811
outside of the book about your experience doing

1359
00:51:07,811 --> 00:51:10,672
the Aw p writer to writer, mentorship program,

1360
00:51:11,324 --> 00:51:13,402
a mentorship you had under the writer Lily

1361
00:51:13,562 --> 00:51:16,859
Huang where she was really amazing at sensing

1362
00:51:17,158 --> 00:51:17,658
when

1363
00:51:18,037 --> 00:51:20,215
receiving feedback from her

1364
00:51:20,848 --> 00:51:23,788
could be potentially overwhelming or derail the writing

1365
00:51:23,788 --> 00:51:24,185
process.

1366
00:51:24,662 --> 00:51:26,807
And at 1 point, she tells you sort

1367
00:51:26,807 --> 00:51:29,612
of witnessing your I think your demeanor and

1368
00:51:29,612 --> 00:51:31,071
facial expression that

1369
00:51:31,450 --> 00:51:33,608
you should just hold on to the feedback,

1370
00:51:34,007 --> 00:51:35,605
not look at it and keep writing.

1371
00:51:36,338 --> 00:51:40,010
And her flexibility, her listening to and for

1372
00:51:40,010 --> 00:51:42,426
your response to her, the sort of

1373
00:51:43,282 --> 00:51:45,529
bidirectional nature of it. Where it was the

1374
00:51:45,529 --> 00:51:48,073
opposite of of a top down approach,

1375
00:51:48,948 --> 00:51:51,356
seemed to me as if it were revel

1376
00:51:51,810 --> 00:51:52,128
to you.

1377
00:51:52,859 --> 00:51:54,926
And there are qualities of how you describe

1378
00:51:55,005 --> 00:51:57,550
Lilly in the sister character too, I think,

1379
00:51:57,709 --> 00:51:58,606
as well as

1380
00:51:58,981 --> 00:52:01,684
as I mentioned earlier, qualities of a therapist

1381
00:52:01,684 --> 00:52:03,234
in the sister figure

1382
00:52:03,612 --> 00:52:05,847
where the critique of your work isn't based

1383
00:52:05,847 --> 00:52:08,640
on an external system, but rather from your

1384
00:52:08,640 --> 00:52:10,396
own relationship to yourself.

1385
00:52:11,048 --> 00:52:12,873
And in fact, you start to see a

1386
00:52:12,873 --> 00:52:15,016
therapist part way through the book as well.

1387
00:52:15,810 --> 00:52:17,556
And 1 way, I think you could view

1388
00:52:17,556 --> 00:52:18,215
this book

1389
00:52:18,844 --> 00:52:20,942
is as your journey toward

1390
00:52:21,321 --> 00:52:23,878
not just a sort of ind situation from

1391
00:52:23,878 --> 00:52:25,955
your family of origin and culture of origin,

1392
00:52:26,688 --> 00:52:28,380
but a journey toward

1393
00:52:28,914 --> 00:52:29,709
becoming a writer.

1394
00:52:30,504 --> 00:52:32,969
And I wondered if that felt right to

1395
00:52:32,969 --> 00:52:35,688
you. If you felt like 1 way you

1396
00:52:35,688 --> 00:52:36,427
could frame

1397
00:52:36,881 --> 00:52:39,029
the the journey we take with you is

1398
00:52:39,029 --> 00:52:40,779
the journey of becoming a writer.

1399
00:52:41,669 --> 00:52:43,260
Yeah. I think you heard the knee right.

1400
00:52:43,498 --> 00:52:45,567
And it also makes me think of your

1401
00:52:45,567 --> 00:52:47,817
previous question and what we spoke about there

1402
00:52:47,873 --> 00:52:48,373
because

1403
00:52:48,764 --> 00:52:50,203
I feel that when I started the book

1404
00:52:50,283 --> 00:52:51,262
I had a very

1405
00:52:52,600 --> 00:52:55,237
I had a very clear received notion of

1406
00:52:55,237 --> 00:52:57,076
what it means to be a writer and

1407
00:52:57,076 --> 00:52:58,926
to be a person who who has done

1408
00:52:58,926 --> 00:53:00,757
a book. I thought that, you know, it

1409
00:53:00,757 --> 00:53:03,224
means certain kinds of ways of, perceiving the

1410
00:53:03,224 --> 00:53:05,134
world. I mean to certain relationship to other

1411
00:53:05,134 --> 00:53:07,363
people to a public, like my readers, for

1412
00:53:07,363 --> 00:53:07,681
example,

1413
00:53:08,494 --> 00:53:10,569
And actually when I finished writing the book,

1414
00:53:10,889 --> 00:53:12,166
I became a writer, but I became a

1415
00:53:12,166 --> 00:53:14,002
writer on my tons. I was like, this

1416
00:53:14,002 --> 00:53:15,599
is the reason why I write, and it's

1417
00:53:15,599 --> 00:53:17,195
not funny things that people told me I

1418
00:53:17,195 --> 00:53:19,367
did get. Like for example buying a good,

1419
00:53:20,726 --> 00:53:23,043
maybe when 1 very clear example of that

1420
00:53:23,043 --> 00:53:24,641
in met own now is like my relationship

1421
00:53:24,641 --> 00:53:26,887
to prestige. When I started riding the book,

1422
00:53:26,967 --> 00:53:28,478
and I think you can see this reflect

1423
00:53:28,478 --> 00:53:30,410
in the tone of the essays also, so

1424
00:53:30,547 --> 00:53:31,740
I believe that I was doing it to

1425
00:53:31,740 --> 00:53:34,143
gain prestige. Thought that was the most important

1426
00:53:34,143 --> 00:53:35,577
thing. And in fact when I was sending

1427
00:53:35,577 --> 00:53:37,169
out those essays after there I wrote them,

1428
00:53:37,647 --> 00:53:38,842
I would send them to, like, the most

1429
00:53:38,842 --> 00:53:40,833
prestigious places I couldn't imagine like send it

1430
00:53:40,833 --> 00:53:42,522
like New York tech send a delay. You

1431
00:53:42,522 --> 00:53:44,436
know, all these things it it's like, you

1432
00:53:44,436 --> 00:53:46,350
know, like, the tell science, I don't read.

1433
00:53:46,828 --> 00:53:48,184
A lot a few things. But I was,

1434
00:53:48,264 --> 00:53:49,779
like, I feel like I stood because this

1435
00:53:49,779 --> 00:53:51,948
is what a writer would do. And I

1436
00:53:51,948 --> 00:53:54,103
think as the book progressed and my own

1437
00:53:54,103 --> 00:53:56,018
writing journey progressed, and so I I started

1438
00:53:56,018 --> 00:53:58,492
it, Like, you know, I think my relationship

1439
00:53:58,492 --> 00:54:01,219
with Prestige changed completely because I realized, like,

1440
00:54:01,298 --> 00:54:03,372
for me, the reason why I wanted that

1441
00:54:03,372 --> 00:54:05,047
prestige was because I wanted to be in

1442
00:54:05,047 --> 00:54:06,882
connection with other people who had accept me

1443
00:54:06,882 --> 00:54:07,998
and see me for whoever was.

1444
00:54:08,636 --> 00:54:09,136
And

1445
00:54:09,528 --> 00:54:11,281
Actually, like, you don't need prestige to get

1446
00:54:11,281 --> 00:54:13,295
there. Like their speech is not a da

1447
00:54:13,353 --> 00:54:15,504
necessarily have to walk through find connection. You

1448
00:54:15,504 --> 00:54:17,734
can find connections. Just my being, like, yourself

1449
00:54:17,734 --> 00:54:18,234
off.

1450
00:54:19,423 --> 00:54:20,541
And so by the end of the, I

1451
00:54:20,541 --> 00:54:22,456
was, like, submitting the differently is that, you

1452
00:54:22,456 --> 00:54:24,132
know, I... Like, my vision of what a

1453
00:54:24,132 --> 00:54:26,606
meant never a happy literary like, totally changed.

1454
00:54:27,419 --> 00:54:29,095
So I don't know if that really answers

1455
00:54:29,095 --> 00:54:31,010
your question. I do think my feeling of

1456
00:54:31,010 --> 00:54:32,447
what it means to be a writer has

1457
00:54:32,447 --> 00:54:34,522
changed very, very dramatically over the past 5

1458
00:54:34,522 --> 00:54:34,841
years.

1459
00:54:35,654 --> 00:54:37,966
Well, in your conversation with your editor, Elizabeth,

1460
00:54:38,525 --> 00:54:41,815
she talked about how many writers approach her

1461
00:54:42,272 --> 00:54:44,480
regarding how useful this book is to them

1462
00:54:44,599 --> 00:54:45,234
as writers,

1463
00:54:46,029 --> 00:54:47,221
and I can see why,

1464
00:54:47,857 --> 00:54:49,446
I wanted to read a couple of things

1465
00:54:49,446 --> 00:54:51,273
you said on your blog in this slide.

1466
00:54:52,085 --> 00:54:54,005
These are things you wrote before you had

1467
00:54:54,005 --> 00:54:54,644
a book deal.

1468
00:54:55,525 --> 00:54:55,844
Quote,

1469
00:54:56,885 --> 00:54:59,364
I've written on here before that for me,

1470
00:54:59,939 --> 00:55:02,411
The temptation has always been to erase the

1471
00:55:02,411 --> 00:55:04,826
past from my own artistic record

1472
00:55:05,203 --> 00:55:07,915
and present myself like a person who has

1473
00:55:07,915 --> 00:55:09,271
always been fully formed.

1474
00:55:10,242 --> 00:55:11,298
Instead of as someone

1475
00:55:11,673 --> 00:55:13,684
who has had to grow over many years

1476
00:55:14,059 --> 00:55:17,639
and discover what works doesn't work for them.

1477
00:55:18,767 --> 00:55:21,154
And then speaking about writing the story of

1478
00:55:21,154 --> 00:55:23,541
body an essay that comes late in this

1479
00:55:23,541 --> 00:55:24,177
collection you say.

1480
00:55:25,291 --> 00:55:27,932
This essay has made me reconsider what I'm

1481
00:55:27,932 --> 00:55:29,765
doing with my whole book project.

1482
00:55:30,322 --> 00:55:32,473
Once the story of body arrived on the

1483
00:55:32,473 --> 00:55:34,805
page, I knew with a hundred percent certainty

1484
00:55:35,341 --> 00:55:37,349
that this is what I wanted to be

1485
00:55:37,349 --> 00:55:39,190
writing about this topic,

1486
00:55:39,590 --> 00:55:42,309
this part of myself, which maybe wonder if

1487
00:55:42,309 --> 00:55:43,349
the other essays,

1488
00:55:44,163 --> 00:55:46,861
which I previously thought might be coming together

1489
00:55:46,861 --> 00:55:47,654
to make a book.

1490
00:55:48,448 --> 00:55:50,907
Were really nothing more than practice pieces.

1491
00:55:51,639 --> 00:55:54,830
Rote exercises and s up history in language.

1492
00:55:55,708 --> 00:55:57,942
This isn't a question that I've fully resolved

1493
00:55:57,942 --> 00:55:58,181
yet.

1494
00:55:58,913 --> 00:56:01,053
I wonder if there isn't some value after

1495
00:56:01,053 --> 00:56:01,553
all

1496
00:56:01,925 --> 00:56:04,619
in sharing practice pieces with the world,

1497
00:56:05,253 --> 00:56:07,332
something in it it has to do with

1498
00:56:07,332 --> 00:56:09,478
being real and vulnerable and human.

1499
00:56:10,750 --> 00:56:12,737
But what I think great about the story

1500
00:56:12,737 --> 00:56:14,724
game, contrary to your fear,

1501
00:56:15,614 --> 00:56:17,949
is that each piece does feel

1502
00:56:18,486 --> 00:56:21,061
complete. It doesn't feel like you're sharing

1503
00:56:21,917 --> 00:56:22,417
drafts

1504
00:56:23,048 --> 00:56:24,720
or incomplete pieces,

1505
00:56:25,277 --> 00:56:27,664
but you are sharing drafts of yourself,

1506
00:56:28,381 --> 00:56:30,075
and perhaps with this essay

1507
00:56:30,942 --> 00:56:32,691
this essay say the story of body, you

1508
00:56:32,691 --> 00:56:35,949
feel an arrival to something more fundamentally you.

1509
00:56:37,062 --> 00:56:37,777
But either way,

1510
00:56:38,428 --> 00:56:40,494
it feels super generous that we get to

1511
00:56:40,494 --> 00:56:40,994
travel

1512
00:56:42,005 --> 00:56:43,379
with you, practicing

1513
00:56:44,071 --> 00:56:44,389
you.

1514
00:56:46,152 --> 00:56:49,751
I I assume this journey across essays

1515
00:56:50,681 --> 00:56:52,054
was something that you

1516
00:56:52,428 --> 00:56:53,882
created through careful

1517
00:56:54,589 --> 00:56:55,089
ordering

1518
00:56:55,549 --> 00:56:59,329
and reorder and construction through that ordering.

1519
00:57:00,109 --> 00:57:02,190
And so I was really amazed to discover

1520
00:57:02,190 --> 00:57:03,650
that the essays appear

1521
00:57:04,123 --> 00:57:05,711
in the book in the order that they

1522
00:57:05,711 --> 00:57:06,187
were written.

1523
00:57:06,981 --> 00:57:09,601
I was likewise blown away that the last

1524
00:57:09,601 --> 00:57:12,959
thing you wrote was the room dialogue scenes

1525
00:57:13,189 --> 00:57:16,001
the aspect of the book that is most

1526
00:57:16,059 --> 00:57:18,771
essential to it. And the only way I

1527
00:57:18,771 --> 00:57:21,902
could imagine it working together as a collection

1528
00:57:22,372 --> 00:57:24,831
was the actual element you didn't have until

1529
00:57:24,831 --> 00:57:27,607
the very end, and then you took nearly

1530
00:57:27,607 --> 00:57:29,670
a year to figure out how to how

1531
00:57:29,670 --> 00:57:31,755
to do it. In in a what way.

1532
00:57:32,313 --> 00:57:34,547
So talk to us about the construction of

1533
00:57:34,547 --> 00:57:35,583
the book as book,

1534
00:57:36,461 --> 00:57:37,838
maybe about the book

1535
00:57:38,215 --> 00:57:39,492
before the room existed,

1536
00:57:40,384 --> 00:57:43,357
and how it arrives at its final form

1537
00:57:44,372 --> 00:57:45,010
over time.

1538
00:57:46,526 --> 00:57:48,599
Okay all, Thank you for reading from my.

1539
00:57:48,838 --> 00:57:50,929
I feel like that's very moving for me

1540
00:57:50,929 --> 00:57:53,486
because I feel like, the writing I do

1541
00:57:53,486 --> 00:57:54,924
on my blog is not listed in the

1542
00:57:54,924 --> 00:57:56,522
writing I do in a published book. It's

1543
00:57:56,522 --> 00:57:59,254
the same thoughts. It's me. So for This

1544
00:57:59,254 --> 00:58:01,965
is... Yeah. It's very moving. Actually, you do

1545
00:58:01,965 --> 00:58:03,981
hear you read from the 3 with

1546
00:58:04,358 --> 00:58:06,192
that as the words under the printed page.

1547
00:58:06,432 --> 00:58:08,027
So thank you. Mh. Yeah.

1548
00:58:08,918 --> 00:58:10,824
Yeah. The book was written in the exact

1549
00:58:10,824 --> 00:58:13,763
claim order as of it appears. And maybe

1550
00:58:13,763 --> 00:58:16,622
that also was taking a risk exposing something

1551
00:58:16,622 --> 00:58:19,509
that... Could be vulnerable to people because you're

1552
00:58:19,509 --> 00:58:21,686
not the first person to say this, and

1553
00:58:21,904 --> 00:58:24,778
and maybe I don't really understand. Actually, because

1554
00:58:24,778 --> 00:58:26,948
everybody is always very surprised by this But

1555
00:58:26,948 --> 00:58:28,541
to me, it feels like the book could

1556
00:58:28,541 --> 00:58:30,215
not work if I reorder the essay sa.

1557
00:58:30,454 --> 00:58:33,162
Like, the very chronology of the essays,

1558
00:58:34,039 --> 00:58:36,052
and the the order in which they appear

1559
00:58:36,444 --> 00:58:38,276
is me. You know, that was the journey

1560
00:58:38,356 --> 00:58:39,254
I went through

1561
00:58:39,630 --> 00:58:42,339
because I'm basically showing the reader different versions

1562
00:58:42,339 --> 00:58:44,911
of myself and getting that ordering

1563
00:58:45,367 --> 00:58:48,652
correct is important because I'm showing you the

1564
00:58:48,652 --> 00:58:50,806
journey of growth I went through. And the

1565
00:58:50,806 --> 00:58:52,822
way I changed from Sa to Sa

1566
00:58:53,534 --> 00:58:55,605
As you self mentioned, I think, like, earlier

1567
00:58:55,605 --> 00:58:57,199
on, you know, between the first and second

1568
00:58:57,199 --> 00:58:59,111
essay, you can see the way already I'm

1569
00:58:59,111 --> 00:59:01,935
healing my sense of self. Based on my

1570
00:59:01,992 --> 00:59:04,378
self protection after during the first essay, I'm

1571
00:59:04,378 --> 00:59:06,605
like, okay. I I realized I to academic

1572
00:59:06,605 --> 00:59:08,514
there, so I need to include more details

1573
00:59:08,514 --> 00:59:10,839
of my life. And then after that second

1574
00:59:10,839 --> 00:59:12,911
essay, I'm, like, well, I didn't include a

1575
00:59:12,911 --> 00:59:14,266
lot of details from my life, but they

1576
00:59:14,266 --> 00:59:16,658
were very dishonest. And they were they didn't

1577
00:59:16,658 --> 00:59:18,507
include the ugly thing. So I'm the third

1578
00:59:18,507 --> 00:59:19,862
essay sa is going to be very ugly.

1579
00:59:19,942 --> 00:59:21,537
It's going to be about depression. You know,

1580
00:59:21,617 --> 00:59:23,371
you can literally see the thought process of

1581
00:59:23,371 --> 00:59:25,763
the person moving from from draft the draft

1582
00:59:25,763 --> 00:59:26,401
of themselves.

1583
00:59:27,053 --> 00:59:28,641
In terms of how the book came together,

1584
00:59:29,038 --> 00:59:31,419
it was literally written that way, essay by

1585
00:59:31,499 --> 00:59:34,039
Essay sa. And as the blog that when

1586
00:59:34,119 --> 00:59:36,045
I got story of body, I was like,

1587
00:59:36,204 --> 00:59:38,198
oh, man. I think this is it. Like

1588
00:59:38,198 --> 00:59:40,431
the edit of days were just attempts to

1589
00:59:40,431 --> 00:59:42,265
get here, and this is the place where

1590
00:59:42,265 --> 00:59:43,860
the book actually has a form.

1591
00:59:44,750 --> 00:59:47,130
And it actually it contains something that's true

1592
00:59:47,130 --> 00:59:47,526
about me.

1593
00:59:48,240 --> 00:59:50,700
But then after that, I say, I had

1594
00:59:50,700 --> 00:59:52,390
a very strong feeling that

1595
00:59:52,779 --> 00:59:54,612
needed to write something about my sister.

1596
00:59:55,171 --> 00:59:55,671
And,

1597
00:59:56,128 --> 00:59:57,403
you know, I tried it really, really hard

1598
00:59:57,403 --> 00:59:59,795
to write the essay. But equally when I

1599
00:59:59,795 --> 01:00:01,803
was trying to construct this essay sa, Felt

1600
01:00:01,803 --> 01:00:03,715
like the Essay form was not the right

1601
01:00:03,715 --> 01:00:05,547
container. For I had to say about my

1602
01:00:05,547 --> 01:00:08,096
sister because no matter how much I tried

1603
01:00:08,096 --> 01:00:09,938
to talk. About her. I realized that it

1604
01:00:09,938 --> 01:00:11,366
was impossible for me to know what she

1605
01:00:11,366 --> 01:00:11,921
was thinking.

1606
01:00:12,476 --> 01:00:14,777
Our relationship when we were growing up was

1607
01:00:14,777 --> 01:00:15,516
so heavily

1608
01:00:15,905 --> 01:00:18,005
you wrote in terms of its control dynamics

1609
01:00:18,065 --> 01:00:19,984
towards me. I had so much control, and

1610
01:00:19,984 --> 01:00:22,224
she was so much, lacking an agency. I

1611
01:00:22,224 --> 01:00:24,877
think when we spend time together. That I

1612
01:00:24,877 --> 01:00:26,945
always knew what I wanted her to do

1613
01:00:26,945 --> 01:00:29,173
in every interaction that I could recall, but

1614
01:00:29,253 --> 01:00:31,162
I had no idea how she responded. Like,

1615
01:00:31,321 --> 01:00:33,151
my brain had just blocked that out because

1616
01:00:33,151 --> 01:00:34,678
it in summary, I guess it saw her,

1617
01:00:34,758 --> 01:00:36,588
like, a doll, rather than a human went

1618
01:00:36,588 --> 01:00:38,260
being and it was not possible to write

1619
01:00:38,260 --> 01:00:41,125
about her. And I remember, actually, when I

1620
01:00:41,125 --> 01:00:42,876
was going through this process, it took 8

1621
01:00:42,876 --> 01:00:44,107
months. This painstaking

1622
01:00:44,480 --> 01:00:46,226
of writing and writing and trying to worry

1623
01:00:46,226 --> 01:00:46,941
about my sister.

1624
01:00:47,497 --> 01:00:49,958
I actually had experienced a very, like,

1625
01:00:51,164 --> 01:00:53,945
I would say intuitive moment of grief that

1626
01:00:53,945 --> 01:00:55,057
1 day I just broke out and I

1627
01:00:55,057 --> 01:00:56,725
cried, and I had therapy that day, and

1628
01:00:56,884 --> 01:00:59,109
I home my therapist. I was like, I

1629
01:00:59,109 --> 01:01:01,755
feel like, in writing this essay I'm destroying

1630
01:01:01,755 --> 01:01:03,911
myself because I'm destroying the egg of storytelling.

1631
01:01:04,150 --> 01:01:05,267
This essay day is going to be the

1632
01:01:05,267 --> 01:01:07,502
end of all stories for me. Wow. Yeah.

1633
01:01:07,742 --> 01:01:09,753
It... I mean Very. I got heard domestic.

1634
01:01:09,993 --> 01:01:12,011
I looked I was like and no.

1635
01:01:12,949 --> 01:01:14,248
Like I

1636
01:01:14,787 --> 01:01:16,545
say cheapest was like okay. That's interesting.

1637
01:01:18,632 --> 01:01:22,056
But I feel like, that was something. 0II

1638
01:01:22,056 --> 01:01:23,807
kind of sense even before I got there,

1639
01:01:24,046 --> 01:01:24,603
maybe did.

1640
01:01:25,654 --> 01:01:28,610
You know, the traditional essay which contains the

1641
01:01:28,610 --> 01:01:30,688
story structure. Right? It's like, you know, there's

1642
01:01:30,688 --> 01:01:33,165
some sticks, and then there's some suspense, and

1643
01:01:33,165 --> 01:01:34,854
then there's a big even event that resolves

1644
01:01:34,854 --> 01:01:36,764
it, and then I learned something and I

1645
01:01:36,764 --> 01:01:38,911
changed. I become a new person. That was

1646
01:01:38,911 --> 01:01:40,901
not going to work for what I now

1647
01:01:40,901 --> 01:01:42,355
in the do it was to include a

1648
01:01:42,355 --> 01:01:43,954
subject video idea of another human theme.

1649
01:01:44,675 --> 01:01:46,195
Maybe it booked plus some other writers. But

1650
01:01:46,195 --> 01:01:48,114
for me, I just knew that what I

1651
01:01:48,114 --> 01:01:49,494
think of as a story

1652
01:01:49,809 --> 01:01:51,028
was actually an obstacle

1653
01:01:51,407 --> 01:01:54,523
rather than I help in terms of describing

1654
01:01:54,523 --> 01:01:56,601
my life and my relationship with this person

1655
01:01:56,601 --> 01:01:57,080
who I love.

1656
01:01:57,893 --> 01:01:59,239
And, yeah. It I was very sad for

1657
01:01:59,239 --> 01:02:00,666
you because I think I am quite good

1658
01:02:00,666 --> 01:02:02,884
at telling stories of, you know, the previous

1659
01:02:02,884 --> 01:02:05,436
essay essays. I enjoyed that process. Do I

1660
01:02:05,436 --> 01:02:07,343
enjoy creating a story. And I I don't

1661
01:02:07,343 --> 01:02:09,329
think a lot of my identity derive from

1662
01:02:09,329 --> 01:02:11,475
my ability to do this and practice the

1663
01:02:11,475 --> 01:02:13,716
skill. Do But that's also why I need

1664
01:02:13,716 --> 01:02:15,386
to grow. Right? It's that's so why I

1665
01:02:15,386 --> 01:02:17,476
used to grow. It try something that not

1666
01:02:17,533 --> 01:02:19,998
necessarily. Doesn't have a hundred percent success rate

1667
01:02:19,998 --> 01:02:20,498
guaranteed

1668
01:02:21,527 --> 01:02:23,521
and and then, you know, that was what

1669
01:02:23,680 --> 01:02:25,434
I think kind of processing that feeling of,

1670
01:02:25,514 --> 01:02:27,189
like, all the stories are disappearing. Your more

1671
01:02:27,189 --> 01:02:28,943
stories that I will was what bought me

1672
01:02:28,943 --> 01:02:29,741
to write a dialogue.

1673
01:02:30,315 --> 01:02:31,753
I I do think the daylight rep at

1674
01:02:31,753 --> 01:02:33,270
the end of story like, to be.

1675
01:02:34,469 --> 01:02:36,327
So you've talked elsewhere about

1676
01:02:36,706 --> 01:02:37,206
how

1677
01:02:37,920 --> 01:02:40,239
before you found your agent, who as an

1678
01:02:40,239 --> 01:02:42,239
aside, I think is another person who seems

1679
01:02:42,239 --> 01:02:43,679
to have some of the qualities of your

1680
01:02:43,679 --> 01:02:44,800
sister character in your book.

1681
01:02:45,773 --> 01:02:48,398
A person who was able to sense emotions

1682
01:02:48,398 --> 01:02:50,864
and you that were too sub textual on

1683
01:02:50,864 --> 01:02:53,331
the page and and push you to draw

1684
01:02:53,331 --> 01:02:53,967
them forward.

1685
01:02:54,699 --> 01:02:56,692
Before you found this agent, you had a

1686
01:02:56,692 --> 01:02:59,324
different agent reach out to you who was

1687
01:02:59,324 --> 01:03:01,717
curious if you had a book. And when

1688
01:03:01,717 --> 01:03:03,892
she saw your manuscript was interested

1689
01:03:04,364 --> 01:03:05,898
if you would remove the

1690
01:03:06,512 --> 01:03:09,696
experimental elements in it, the the room elements

1691
01:03:09,696 --> 01:03:12,402
in it. So it was actually interested potentially

1692
01:03:12,402 --> 01:03:13,517
in in the essays,

1693
01:03:14,168 --> 01:03:16,388
as an essay collection. And I wondered if

1694
01:03:16,388 --> 01:03:17,998
you could talk for a moment

1695
01:03:18,529 --> 01:03:20,591
about that encounter and that... And the series

1696
01:03:20,591 --> 01:03:23,943
of decisions to walk away from 1 agent

1697
01:03:23,943 --> 01:03:24,978
and look for another?

1698
01:03:26,172 --> 01:03:29,434
So she reached out to me at a

1699
01:03:29,434 --> 01:03:30,889
time when I was already

1700
01:03:31,438 --> 01:03:34,320
seeking Bed reader feedback on the manuscript,

1701
01:03:34,693 --> 01:03:35,193
and

1702
01:03:35,804 --> 01:03:38,504
she basically... She had read 1 of the

1703
01:03:38,504 --> 01:03:41,456
essays in the collection, which was called the

1704
01:03:41,456 --> 01:03:43,282
true wonders of the Holy land and she

1705
01:03:43,282 --> 01:03:44,315
really liked that essay.

1706
01:03:44,791 --> 01:03:46,299
So I think she was hoping that I

1707
01:03:46,299 --> 01:03:48,601
would produce for her stack of essays that

1708
01:03:48,601 --> 01:03:50,843
all kind of sounded similar and tone through

1709
01:03:50,843 --> 01:03:52,377
that. That's a particularly...

1710
01:03:52,753 --> 01:03:54,424
I would say it's a particularly chat essay

1711
01:03:54,424 --> 01:03:56,732
a It's a particularly, like, funny as they

1712
01:03:56,732 --> 01:03:58,107
with a lot of, like, human

1713
01:03:59,214 --> 01:04:00,648
character. Like it's a lot of, like, funny

1714
01:04:00,648 --> 01:04:02,640
new characters in the Essay. And I think

1715
01:04:02,640 --> 01:04:04,552
she was drawn through that, but I didn't

1716
01:04:04,552 --> 01:04:06,146
have that show her. I actually only had

1717
01:04:06,146 --> 01:04:06,878
this your script.

1718
01:04:07,596 --> 01:04:09,111
So I gave her A I hat, and

1719
01:04:09,111 --> 01:04:10,068
then she didn't really...

1720
01:04:11,026 --> 01:04:12,541
I think she she gave me a piece

1721
01:04:12,541 --> 01:04:15,333
of mixed feedback actually where she said that

1722
01:04:15,333 --> 01:04:16,072
she really

1723
01:04:16,784 --> 01:04:18,219
enjoyed the book, like, she read it really

1724
01:04:18,219 --> 01:04:20,373
quickly. She read it in 1 night, and

1725
01:04:20,373 --> 01:04:22,367
she she liked it, but she doesn't think

1726
01:04:22,367 --> 01:04:24,520
she can stand it. So that was a

1727
01:04:24,520 --> 01:04:27,005
bit... I think for me, I when I

1728
01:04:27,005 --> 01:04:28,117
received that piece of feedback,

1729
01:04:29,309 --> 01:04:31,613
I just felt like, because she wanted me

1730
01:04:31,613 --> 01:04:33,281
to try and rewrite the book. I felt

1731
01:04:33,281 --> 01:04:34,885
like of, I don't have it in me.

1732
01:04:35,361 --> 01:04:36,552
I don't have it in me because the

1733
01:04:36,552 --> 01:04:38,933
thing took 5 years. And, you know, as

1734
01:04:39,013 --> 01:04:40,362
I said, I was so careful even with

1735
01:04:40,362 --> 01:04:42,997
the ordering of the essays. I think For

1736
01:04:42,997 --> 01:04:44,503
me, it feels like the thing I'm showing

1737
01:04:44,503 --> 01:04:46,961
you is the evidence of my life. I

1738
01:04:46,961 --> 01:04:49,339
know? And I can really redo it. This

1739
01:04:49,339 --> 01:04:51,181
is actually how it happens because the book

1740
01:04:51,181 --> 01:04:53,808
of documenting the process are writing. I can

1741
01:04:53,808 --> 01:04:55,798
tell you allow about how the book came

1742
01:04:55,798 --> 01:04:58,027
to be. So I just wasn't really interested

1743
01:04:58,027 --> 01:05:00,515
in that. But at the same time, Alison,

1744
01:05:00,675 --> 01:05:02,830
my asian had also met me an offer,

1745
01:05:03,150 --> 01:05:05,065
and I felt that Alison saw to book

1746
01:05:05,065 --> 01:05:06,901
very clearly for what it was. She liked

1747
01:05:06,901 --> 01:05:07,460
the dialogue.

1748
01:05:07,954 --> 01:05:09,234
Said that that wasn't something thing that drew

1749
01:05:09,234 --> 01:05:11,315
her that the acid, to the book was

1750
01:05:11,315 --> 01:05:12,755
that it felt like eat as they was

1751
01:05:12,755 --> 01:05:14,755
digging deeper and deeper. So I thought we

1752
01:05:14,755 --> 01:05:17,167
were a good fit because the dialogue is

1753
01:05:17,167 --> 01:05:17,883
maybe, like,

1754
01:05:18,520 --> 01:05:19,954
you know, how people I would say, like,

1755
01:05:20,033 --> 01:05:21,705
when you're looking for new relationships, you should

1756
01:05:21,705 --> 01:05:23,616
leave it the rough edge of yourself. Maybe

1757
01:05:23,616 --> 01:05:25,025
not people are always. I have heard it

1758
01:05:25,143 --> 01:05:26,495
been it. And I think the dialogue is

1759
01:05:26,495 --> 01:05:28,561
the rough of me in the book. And

1760
01:05:28,561 --> 01:05:31,048
it's all very important whoever I worked with

1761
01:05:31,264 --> 01:05:33,489
was able to, like, not only

1762
01:05:34,204 --> 01:05:36,852
vincent tolerate that, but enjoy it and acetaminophen

1763
01:05:36,852 --> 01:05:37,570
benefit that.

1764
01:05:38,606 --> 01:05:39,244
Well, before,

1765
01:05:39,882 --> 01:05:41,956
I knew that you had read Jeannie and

1766
01:05:41,956 --> 01:05:42,456
as

1767
01:05:42,993 --> 01:05:44,211
before I knew that

1768
01:05:44,522 --> 01:05:46,370
Jean V had read you

1769
01:05:46,981 --> 01:05:49,280
that she has placed you permanently on her

1770
01:05:49,280 --> 01:05:49,994
teaching syllabus.

1771
01:05:51,183 --> 01:05:52,190
Before I knew that

1772
01:05:52,627 --> 01:05:55,332
2 would be doing various events around this

1773
01:05:55,332 --> 01:05:56,048
book together.

1774
01:05:56,923 --> 01:05:59,708
Back when I thought of you both entirely

1775
01:05:59,708 --> 01:06:00,742
separate from each other,

1776
01:06:01,473 --> 01:06:03,140
It was her book, the 1 that she

1777
01:06:03,140 --> 01:06:05,203
came on the show for, things we didn't

1778
01:06:05,203 --> 01:06:06,973
talk about when I was a girl

1779
01:06:07,347 --> 01:06:09,252
that I thought of while reading the story

1780
01:06:09,252 --> 01:06:09,411
game.

1781
01:06:10,458 --> 01:06:12,924
Not because they're similar reads, I don't think

1782
01:06:12,924 --> 01:06:14,992
they are. But because easily,

1783
01:06:15,469 --> 01:06:18,271
they're the 2 memoirs that first come to

1784
01:06:18,271 --> 01:06:20,824
mind in terms of how formally innovative they

1785
01:06:20,824 --> 01:06:21,324
are

1786
01:06:21,701 --> 01:06:23,535
and the degree of risk that they both

1787
01:06:23,535 --> 01:06:24,753
take formally,

1788
01:06:25,289 --> 01:06:26,348
but also personally,

1789
01:06:27,297 --> 01:06:29,916
Martha ba sells for Lit hub said of

1790
01:06:30,075 --> 01:06:30,789
Jean book.

1791
01:06:32,139 --> 01:06:33,170
It's Nuanced,

1792
01:06:33,885 --> 01:06:34,282
profound,

1793
01:06:34,917 --> 01:06:35,417
murky

1794
01:06:36,124 --> 01:06:37,163
morally complex,

1795
01:06:37,962 --> 01:06:40,059
truly uncomfortable in infuriating.

1796
01:06:40,838 --> 01:06:42,596
I'm so sorry I need to call it

1797
01:06:42,596 --> 01:06:42,915
brave,

1798
01:06:43,808 --> 01:06:45,896
I'm still out of breath, processing,

1799
01:06:46,508 --> 01:06:50,081
needing to discuss it. So please everyone, hurry

1800
01:06:50,081 --> 01:06:50,875
up and read it.

1801
01:06:52,081 --> 01:06:54,700
You're in her approach and motive beam within

1802
01:06:54,700 --> 01:06:56,684
the 2 books are very different. But 1

1803
01:06:56,684 --> 01:06:58,931
thing both book share is

1804
01:06:59,398 --> 01:07:01,384
that as you've already mentioned today,

1805
01:07:02,178 --> 01:07:04,719
the questions of the book's construction are very

1806
01:07:04,719 --> 01:07:07,102
much part of the book itself. Questions of

1807
01:07:07,102 --> 01:07:08,555
how to make the book

1808
01:07:09,102 --> 01:07:11,801
are asked and deliberate Did over within the

1809
01:07:11,801 --> 01:07:12,992
narratives of both books.

1810
01:07:14,103 --> 01:07:15,770
And when I discovered that she was a

1811
01:07:15,770 --> 01:07:16,960
huge champion of yours,

1812
01:07:17,849 --> 01:07:19,380
and that you you're going to be in

1813
01:07:19,436 --> 01:07:21,498
conversation with her as part of your tour.

1814
01:07:22,609 --> 01:07:25,403
She sort of became my undercover spy with

1815
01:07:25,403 --> 01:07:26,041
your blessing.

1816
01:07:27,157 --> 01:07:27,896
She went

1817
01:07:28,274 --> 01:07:30,586
she went to your conversation with Elizabeth Male,

1818
01:07:30,745 --> 01:07:32,500
and she recorded it on her phone,

1819
01:07:33,297 --> 01:07:33,797
including

1820
01:07:34,349 --> 01:07:36,207
a dog having a protracted

1821
01:07:36,586 --> 01:07:37,086
hacking

1822
01:07:38,024 --> 01:07:40,581
hacking fit very close to the phone's microphone

1823
01:07:40,581 --> 01:07:41,140
at 1 point.

1824
01:07:41,871 --> 01:07:44,096
You 2 also had an off the record

1825
01:07:44,255 --> 01:07:45,311
Zoom interview

1826
01:07:45,685 --> 01:07:48,172
as part of your development of your upcoming

1827
01:07:48,387 --> 01:07:50,470
conversation for Ba magazine of which I was

1828
01:07:50,470 --> 01:07:53,731
given access to and much more. So really

1829
01:07:53,731 --> 01:07:55,424
a ton of the intel

1830
01:07:56,134 --> 01:07:58,052
about today is thanks to Genie.

1831
01:07:58,850 --> 01:08:01,028
Here's a question for you from Genie V,

1832
01:08:01,966 --> 01:08:04,615
about another mystery in the book beyond the

1833
01:08:04,615 --> 01:08:07,724
memory gap. The many years when your sister

1834
01:08:07,724 --> 01:08:08,623
in real life

1835
01:08:08,999 --> 01:08:11,151
stopped speaking to you without explanation.

1836
01:08:12,282 --> 01:08:14,596
Hi, Shay, and hi, David. Thank you so

1837
01:08:14,596 --> 01:08:16,111
much for letting me be a part of

1838
01:08:16,111 --> 01:08:16,611
this

1839
01:08:16,988 --> 01:08:17,228
conversation.

1840
01:08:17,945 --> 01:08:19,780
So I keep thinking about the moment in

1841
01:08:19,780 --> 01:08:22,423
the story game. When we tell her sister.

1842
01:08:23,534 --> 01:08:25,679
The truth is that whenever I looked at

1843
01:08:25,679 --> 01:08:26,076
union,

1844
01:08:26,632 --> 01:08:28,061
there was a part of me that thought,

1845
01:08:28,617 --> 01:08:29,514
I am bad

1846
01:08:29,904 --> 01:08:30,942
I hate myself,

1847
01:08:31,500 --> 01:08:32,537
I shouldn't exist.

1848
01:08:33,495 --> 01:08:35,490
But because it was impossible to hold on

1849
01:08:35,490 --> 01:08:37,086
to those thoughts for very long,

1850
01:08:37,979 --> 01:08:40,216
I wished that you were gone instead.

1851
01:08:42,135 --> 01:08:44,930
I shouldn't exist, and I wished that you

1852
01:08:44,930 --> 01:08:45,890
were gone instead.

1853
01:08:46,464 --> 01:08:48,854
Our common thoughts among victims of the silent

1854
01:08:48,854 --> 01:08:49,253
treatment,

1855
01:08:50,368 --> 01:08:53,100
especially when a loved 1 inflict a lengthy

1856
01:08:53,158 --> 01:08:53,658
silence

1857
01:08:54,208 --> 01:08:55,877
and the silence goes explained.

1858
01:08:56,751 --> 01:08:58,578
As you know I'm writing a book about

1859
01:08:58,578 --> 01:09:01,041
my experiences with my mom silent treatments.

1860
01:09:01,453 --> 01:09:03,521
Which is why I'm so curious to hear

1861
01:09:03,521 --> 01:09:06,146
you talk about the silent treatments influence on

1862
01:09:06,146 --> 01:09:07,260
your writing process,

1863
01:09:08,389 --> 01:09:10,303
What I find so interesting in your case

1864
01:09:10,303 --> 01:09:12,935
is that your sister silence started years before

1865
01:09:12,935 --> 01:09:13,972
you pursued writing.

1866
01:09:14,610 --> 01:09:16,365
So I'm also wondering if you have any

1867
01:09:16,365 --> 01:09:18,255
sense of how her silence may have shaped

1868
01:09:18,373 --> 01:09:19,567
you as a writer.

1869
01:09:20,442 --> 01:09:22,828
Thank you again both of you, and I

1870
01:09:22,828 --> 01:09:24,578
look forward to your answer, She we.

1871
01:09:26,102 --> 01:09:27,609
Well, fifth of all, I'm so happy that

1872
01:09:27,766 --> 01:09:29,987
Jamie as the cushion because... Yeah. It do

1873
01:09:29,987 --> 01:09:31,731
that she's been such a huge supporter of

1874
01:09:31,731 --> 01:09:32,707
the book, and

1875
01:09:33,175 --> 01:09:35,572
I love her books so much. I think

1876
01:09:35,572 --> 01:09:37,989
that not only, you know, we're are similar

1877
01:09:38,128 --> 01:09:39,885
in the way you describe in terms of

1878
01:09:39,885 --> 01:09:41,973
like playing with form and the bravery to

1879
01:09:41,973 --> 01:09:46,353
trying new forms, but also from having worked

1880
01:09:46,353 --> 01:09:47,627
with her the un booked her, and it

1881
01:09:47,627 --> 01:09:49,061
also just from being a read of a

1882
01:09:49,061 --> 01:09:51,613
book. I think that, you know, this kind

1883
01:09:51,613 --> 01:09:53,118
of respect for the other,

1884
01:09:53,594 --> 01:09:55,813
and the other subject activity is something that's

1885
01:09:55,813 --> 01:09:58,300
really present and Ginny work, and that's always

1886
01:09:58,300 --> 01:10:00,060
been something I really really end my.

1887
01:10:00,860 --> 01:10:03,020
Because I think it's a very interesting question

1888
01:10:03,020 --> 01:10:05,273
to play with as a memoir. What can

1889
01:10:05,273 --> 01:10:05,931
you do

1890
01:10:06,308 --> 01:10:08,141
to write about another person and you you

1891
01:10:08,141 --> 01:10:10,053
recognize that they are exactly as real as

1892
01:10:10,053 --> 01:10:11,886
you are? And in that second book you

1893
01:10:11,886 --> 01:10:13,894
mentioned things we didn't talk about when I

1894
01:10:13,894 --> 01:10:16,206
was ago. I think she is exploring that

1895
01:10:16,206 --> 01:10:18,757
question in such a powerful way. And for

1896
01:10:18,757 --> 01:10:20,511
me, I was like so generative to read

1897
01:10:20,511 --> 01:10:22,681
that book for. Thank you but at a

1898
01:10:22,681 --> 01:10:25,319
under the show. In terms of how my

1899
01:10:25,319 --> 01:10:27,875
sister silence shaped me as a writer,

1900
01:10:28,770 --> 01:10:30,689
Think the funny thing is until I spoke

1901
01:10:30,689 --> 01:10:33,570
to Jeannie for that interview you referenced for,

1902
01:10:33,970 --> 01:10:36,465
a bond magazine interview, I had never thought

1903
01:10:36,465 --> 01:10:38,064
of what my sister did to me as

1904
01:10:38,064 --> 01:10:39,185
the silent treatment.

1905
01:10:39,744 --> 01:10:41,744
I had never really applied a label due

1906
01:10:41,744 --> 01:10:44,717
the way she treated me, maybe because, there

1907
01:10:44,717 --> 01:10:46,862
was an inability to acknowledge it for me,

1908
01:10:47,100 --> 01:10:48,769
You know? I prefer to live in my

1909
01:10:48,769 --> 01:10:50,755
fantasy where I was, like, this person really

1910
01:10:50,755 --> 01:10:53,470
loves me. So somehow, this silence must be

1911
01:10:53,470 --> 01:10:54,979
a manifestation of that love.

1912
01:10:55,931 --> 01:10:58,948
And the only way I could make that

1913
01:10:58,948 --> 01:11:00,877
make sense to me was to think that

1914
01:11:00,877 --> 01:11:02,633
maybe the silent was a game hence the

1915
01:11:02,633 --> 01:11:05,266
story game. Yeah. Because I was like, you

1916
01:11:05,266 --> 01:11:07,103
know, I can't believe that this person doesn't

1917
01:11:07,103 --> 01:11:10,005
like me because we grown up together. So

1918
01:11:10,695 --> 01:11:12,519
this must be some kind of fun game

1919
01:11:12,519 --> 01:11:14,422
that they have created for me to play

1920
01:11:14,422 --> 01:11:17,135
and maybe if I find exact right thing

1921
01:11:17,135 --> 01:11:18,565
to say to her or I move in

1922
01:11:18,565 --> 01:11:20,632
the exact right way or I cracked the

1923
01:11:20,632 --> 01:11:22,699
code somehow, like a detective. Right? I cracked

1924
01:11:22,699 --> 01:11:23,812
the code, and I find a key.

1925
01:11:24,463 --> 01:11:26,771
Then the sign will end. So I could

1926
01:11:26,771 --> 01:11:29,396
only perceive it as like, a fun exciting

1927
01:11:29,396 --> 01:11:31,465
thing because I guess my head couldn't hold

1928
01:11:31,465 --> 01:11:33,136
their reality that we are not that close.

1929
01:11:34,829 --> 01:11:36,909
So I think that that actually, maybe the

1930
01:11:36,909 --> 01:11:39,470
way in which the silence most profoundly affected

1931
01:11:39,470 --> 01:11:41,801
the way I write. It fact that this

1932
01:11:41,801 --> 01:11:44,752
kind of, dynamic in the book where it's

1933
01:11:44,752 --> 01:11:46,586
like 2 people dwelling. I think in 1

1934
01:11:46,586 --> 01:11:48,819
of the reviews that I read for a

1935
01:11:48,819 --> 01:11:51,623
story game, somebody said that my sisters are

1936
01:11:51,623 --> 01:11:52,123
worthy

1937
01:11:52,498 --> 01:11:52,998
adversary

1938
01:11:53,613 --> 01:11:56,397
ended exactly how I felt about her silence.

1939
01:11:56,556 --> 01:11:59,363
I felt like she's created this home victim,

1940
01:11:59,922 --> 01:12:02,558
I must win because she already appointed.

1941
01:12:03,197 --> 01:12:04,796
And maybe something about that.

1942
01:12:05,449 --> 01:12:07,766
Gave me some creative or generated energy. You

1943
01:12:07,766 --> 01:12:09,605
know? Because if it's a game, then there's

1944
01:12:09,605 --> 01:12:11,682
not the news. Right? You can keep playing

1945
01:12:11,682 --> 01:12:13,121
because you believe that deep Deepgram inside, the

1946
01:12:13,121 --> 01:12:13,920
person loves you.

1947
01:12:14,972 --> 01:12:15,472
Thinking

1948
01:12:15,848 --> 01:12:18,397
both about your sister's silence towards you over

1949
01:12:18,397 --> 01:12:20,388
the years while living under the same roof,

1950
01:12:20,786 --> 01:12:22,857
and you creating an imagined version of her,

1951
01:12:23,509 --> 01:12:25,573
but also how much we learned about your

1952
01:12:25,573 --> 01:12:26,630
husband, Thomas

1953
01:12:27,240 --> 01:12:28,035
and your marriage,

1954
01:12:28,750 --> 01:12:30,576
and perhaps most about your parents.

1955
01:12:31,370 --> 01:12:33,774
I wanted to ask you how you did

1956
01:12:33,774 --> 01:12:36,255
or didn't involve them in the making of

1957
01:12:36,255 --> 01:12:38,114
the book or in

1958
01:12:38,654 --> 01:12:39,715
preparation for the books

1959
01:12:40,015 --> 01:12:40,255
arrival.

1960
01:12:40,829 --> 01:12:42,984
When when you talked with Claire Chi, who...

1961
01:12:43,702 --> 01:12:45,936
I presume is from Singapore too, and she

1962
01:12:45,936 --> 01:12:46,574
says, quote,

1963
01:12:47,453 --> 01:12:49,563
Singapore adopt a pate

1964
01:12:50,018 --> 01:12:51,792
approach to governance that

1965
01:12:52,565 --> 01:12:56,169
compounded with common Asian dynamics of f pie

1966
01:12:56,718 --> 01:13:00,134
had produced a general cultural aversion to questioning

1967
01:13:00,134 --> 01:13:00,848
one's elders.

1968
01:13:01,642 --> 01:13:03,390
In the book you have to reckon with

1969
01:13:03,390 --> 01:13:04,343
how your parents,

1970
01:13:05,072 --> 01:13:06,922
who you assert are good people

1971
01:13:07,296 --> 01:13:08,645
could hurt you so terribly.

1972
01:13:09,599 --> 01:13:12,719
And your answer that being a good child

1973
01:13:13,029 --> 01:13:15,267
meant that 1 had to in order to

1974
01:13:15,267 --> 01:13:16,226
respect one's elders,

1975
01:13:17,105 --> 01:13:19,903
deny the parts of yourself that remember all

1976
01:13:19,903 --> 01:13:21,820
the ways they were made to feel small

1977
01:13:21,820 --> 01:13:23,110
or angry or afraid,

1978
01:13:23,746 --> 01:13:24,643
and you ask

1979
01:13:25,176 --> 01:13:26,843
what kind of love is this that will

1980
01:13:26,843 --> 01:13:29,782
fully denies the fullness of what we can

1981
01:13:29,782 --> 01:13:31,132
remember about another person.

1982
01:13:32,259 --> 01:13:33,631
And lastly, in a podcast

1983
01:13:34,005 --> 01:13:37,020
conversation that I particularly loved, A podcast called

1984
01:13:37,020 --> 01:13:40,211
writing stories. You you talk about how originally,

1985
01:13:40,529 --> 01:13:42,997
you worried about whether the stories would find

1986
01:13:42,997 --> 01:13:43,317
readers.

1987
01:13:44,113 --> 01:13:45,705
But now that you were on tour,

1988
01:13:46,182 --> 01:13:48,743
you were no longer worried about readers leadership

1989
01:13:48,743 --> 01:13:51,122
or connection, you were with your readers, you

1990
01:13:51,122 --> 01:13:53,899
were finding connection. But instead, you were worried

1991
01:13:53,899 --> 01:13:54,636
about how

1992
01:13:55,504 --> 01:13:57,442
family and people from your childhood

1993
01:13:58,140 --> 01:14:00,137
would potentially react to the book.

1994
01:14:00,936 --> 01:14:01,596
And in

1995
01:14:02,135 --> 01:14:02,635
anticipation

1996
01:14:03,027 --> 01:14:06,673
of loss or rupture. You re reminded yourself

1997
01:14:06,673 --> 01:14:08,813
of the new connections that were being made.

1998
01:14:10,413 --> 01:14:12,488
You mentioned in that pot podcast that your

1999
01:14:12,488 --> 01:14:14,561
parents were coming to an event at an

2000
01:14:14,561 --> 01:14:15,837
upcoming reading on your tour,

2001
01:14:16,396 --> 01:14:18,868
which by now has already happened, and I

2002
01:14:18,868 --> 01:14:20,006
it get the impression

2003
01:14:20,557 --> 01:14:22,783
there you don't say this explicitly that they

2004
01:14:22,783 --> 01:14:24,929
haven't engaged with the book much before this.

2005
01:14:25,167 --> 01:14:28,426
But what what conversations did you or did

2006
01:14:28,426 --> 01:14:28,903
you have?

2007
01:14:29,875 --> 01:14:32,755
With any of these people who are close

2008
01:14:32,755 --> 01:14:35,715
in your life and and who become portrayed

2009
01:14:35,715 --> 01:14:38,526
in a personal way because you're revealing personal

2010
01:14:38,526 --> 01:14:40,520
things about yourself in your own process.

2011
01:14:41,237 --> 01:14:43,012
How much or how little were you

2012
01:14:43,470 --> 01:14:45,942
willing to show them in advance of publication?

2013
01:14:46,754 --> 01:14:48,587
And if you're open to it, how how

2014
01:14:48,587 --> 01:14:50,341
has it gone in the end with family

2015
01:14:50,341 --> 01:14:52,675
and friends and now that the book is

2016
01:14:52,972 --> 01:14:53,689
out in the world?

2017
01:14:55,618 --> 01:14:57,533
Sorry I read this book last night.

2018
01:14:58,411 --> 01:15:01,523
It's called the words that remain by S

2019
01:15:01,682 --> 01:15:02,182
Ga.

2020
01:15:02,974 --> 01:15:05,447
And it's a book that my friend David

2021
01:15:05,606 --> 01:15:08,318
Martinez who's also a memoir. He recommended it

2022
01:15:08,318 --> 01:15:08,977
to me

2023
01:15:09,354 --> 01:15:11,747
because he was actually my first conversation partner

2024
01:15:11,747 --> 01:15:14,793
at the event So before my parents were

2025
01:15:14,793 --> 01:15:16,707
involved, not the event my parents went due,

2026
01:15:16,867 --> 01:15:19,420
but the only event preceding that, and we

2027
01:15:19,420 --> 01:15:21,891
were talking about our parents various reactions do

2028
01:15:21,891 --> 01:15:22,631
our book

2029
01:15:22,944 --> 01:15:24,777
It's actually not true that both my parents

2030
01:15:24,777 --> 01:15:27,009
haven't engaged. My mom has engaged very deeply

2031
01:15:27,009 --> 01:15:28,921
with the entire book. In fact, very, very

2032
01:15:28,921 --> 01:15:32,149
quickly. She read everything. And produce a response

2033
01:15:32,289 --> 01:15:33,489
instant instantaneously.

2034
01:15:33,810 --> 01:15:35,250
But my dad has not read the book.

2035
01:15:35,409 --> 01:15:36,929
And I think because of, you know, what

2036
01:15:37,010 --> 01:15:38,863
I was chair that this book. In some,

2037
01:15:39,023 --> 01:15:40,698
it's my attempt to write about whom and

2038
01:15:40,698 --> 01:15:43,651
about our family connection through that particular side

2039
01:15:43,651 --> 01:15:44,449
of my.

2040
01:15:45,167 --> 01:15:47,255
I think it was very painful to me

2041
01:15:47,255 --> 01:15:49,166
that he would not actually read the entire

2042
01:15:49,166 --> 01:15:49,404
book.

2043
01:15:50,121 --> 01:15:51,713
And so my friend, David, who I think

2044
01:15:51,713 --> 01:15:54,022
went through something similar, He recommended. Got to

2045
01:15:54,022 --> 01:15:56,500
me which is a a great story. I

2046
01:15:56,500 --> 01:15:59,041
quite continuously they are reading this book. It's

2047
01:15:59,041 --> 01:16:00,494
a story about how

2048
01:16:00,947 --> 01:16:03,353
there are 2 men and they're in a

2049
01:16:03,488 --> 01:16:03,647
relationship.

2050
01:16:04,454 --> 01:16:04,954
But

2051
01:16:05,406 --> 01:16:06,302
they get separated

2052
01:16:06,674 --> 01:16:09,789
because of, prejudice against, you know, that gay

2053
01:16:09,923 --> 01:16:12,344
relationships in Brazil, And then

2054
01:16:12,723 --> 01:16:13,602
1 of them

2055
01:16:14,162 --> 01:16:16,000
writes a letter to the other 1, and

2056
01:16:16,000 --> 01:16:17,677
the other person doesn't read it. So he

2057
01:16:17,677 --> 01:16:19,756
just carried this letter for his whole life

2058
01:16:19,836 --> 01:16:20,875
I know he an old man,

2059
01:16:21,609 --> 01:16:23,302
he doesn't read it because he's in the

2060
01:16:23,360 --> 01:16:25,669
and he doesn't... He kind of, like, visits

2061
01:16:25,669 --> 01:16:27,659
learning to read so that he never has

2062
01:16:27,659 --> 01:16:29,252
been reason to open this letter.

2063
01:16:29,984 --> 01:16:31,581
And, you know, they're are the entire book,

2064
01:16:31,980 --> 01:16:33,576
and the book has a story about him

2065
01:16:33,576 --> 01:16:35,513
kind of, like, going on this journey to

2066
01:16:35,891 --> 01:16:37,408
learn to read, Like, he goes to met

2067
01:16:37,408 --> 01:16:39,732
class, and, you know, he slowly picks up

2068
01:16:39,732 --> 01:16:42,348
the skills and kind of processes what happened

2069
01:16:42,348 --> 01:16:44,885
in enough, to generate the bravery to open

2070
01:16:44,885 --> 01:16:45,281
the letter,

2071
01:16:45,994 --> 01:16:46,494
and

2072
01:16:46,803 --> 01:16:48,153
throughout the in entire book, you're kind of

2073
01:16:48,153 --> 01:16:50,377
kept on tinder hooks because I was very

2074
01:16:50,377 --> 01:16:52,997
curious as a reader, like, what? This letter

2075
01:16:52,997 --> 01:16:54,529
says what in this letter

2076
01:16:54,917 --> 01:16:57,060
because this man has lived for, like, decades,

2077
01:16:57,299 --> 01:16:59,283
not knowing, you know, just keeping the material

2078
01:16:59,283 --> 01:17:01,188
the physicality of the letter under the body

2079
01:17:01,188 --> 01:17:02,855
and that's like his reminder of the past.

2080
01:17:03,743 --> 01:17:05,735
Don't wanna give it spoiler, but I think

2081
01:17:05,735 --> 01:17:07,568
suffice to say that that's not very important

2082
01:17:07,568 --> 01:17:09,320
at the end. The actual content of the

2083
01:17:09,320 --> 01:17:11,392
letter and not so important as much as

2084
01:17:11,392 --> 01:17:12,667
the gesture reading it.

2085
01:17:13,399 --> 01:17:15,975
And I think that something about this

2086
01:17:16,592 --> 01:17:17,411
this story

2087
01:17:18,109 --> 01:17:20,343
reminds me of, like, my feelings and how

2088
01:17:20,343 --> 01:17:21,700
my father not reading to book.

2089
01:17:22,511 --> 01:17:24,818
Because at the beginning, yeah. I think I

2090
01:17:24,818 --> 01:17:27,283
really wanted, like, a a certain response from

2091
01:17:27,283 --> 01:17:28,499
him, but

2092
01:17:29,287 --> 01:17:31,039
especially with him coming to my La even.

2093
01:17:31,279 --> 01:17:32,393
He may not read the book, but he

2094
01:17:32,393 --> 01:17:34,542
brought his body there. The story game is

2095
01:17:34,542 --> 01:17:36,693
a book about going from the mind to

2096
01:17:36,693 --> 01:17:39,505
body. By understanding that leader body is also

2097
01:17:39,505 --> 01:17:41,125
an equal and

2098
01:17:41,505 --> 01:17:43,364
equally at the side of expression

2099
01:17:43,905 --> 01:17:46,236
and of self, And I think something about

2100
01:17:46,236 --> 01:17:48,151
just his physical presence there because he doesn't

2101
01:17:48,151 --> 01:17:49,667
live in La. Right? He flew all the

2102
01:17:49,667 --> 01:17:52,711
everything singapore well, to La, but it... Not

2103
01:17:52,711 --> 01:17:54,613
only for this event, but he showed up

2104
01:17:54,613 --> 01:17:56,910
at this event event. And I think something

2105
01:17:56,910 --> 01:18:00,016
about that, accepting that debt is enough, for

2106
01:18:00,016 --> 01:18:02,082
me. It's kind of, like my equivalent of

2107
01:18:02,082 --> 01:18:03,431
opening the letter. You know...

2108
01:18:04,305 --> 01:18:06,767
Because I think it's for me, maybe he

2109
01:18:06,767 --> 01:18:08,277
has been trying to give me something all

2110
01:18:08,277 --> 01:18:10,358
my life that because I lived so much

2111
01:18:10,358 --> 01:18:11,790
in my own head and not in my

2112
01:18:11,790 --> 01:18:13,619
body. I was not able to receive this

2113
01:18:13,619 --> 01:18:13,779
gift.

2114
01:18:15,211 --> 01:18:16,086
I had to write the story.

2115
01:18:16,814 --> 01:18:18,004
To go back and do my buddy and

2116
01:18:18,004 --> 01:18:19,511
be, you know, your presence is enough. Thank

2117
01:18:19,511 --> 01:18:21,731
you for coming the date event. But yeah

2118
01:18:21,731 --> 01:18:23,635
was a long brief involved in this journey.

2119
01:18:24,364 --> 01:18:24,842
Yeah. No...

2120
01:18:25,560 --> 01:18:28,453
That's beautiful ref framing though, imagining

2121
01:18:28,910 --> 01:18:29,229
the

2122
01:18:29,867 --> 01:18:32,202
the presence of his body of of him

2123
01:18:32,340 --> 01:18:33,775
supporting you outside of language.

2124
01:18:34,269 --> 01:18:35,864
Shares exactly. And I think of, you know,

2125
01:18:35,944 --> 01:18:39,214
maybe also because of my background. Like, I

2126
01:18:39,214 --> 01:18:40,968
would have a lot a lot more highly

2127
01:18:40,968 --> 01:18:42,564
educated at my parents, like they also went

2128
01:18:42,564 --> 01:18:43,223
to university,

2129
01:18:43,600 --> 01:18:45,783
but in terms of the leap between the

2130
01:18:45,839 --> 01:18:47,903
generations, like, you know, a lot of people

2131
01:18:47,903 --> 01:18:49,728
in singapore about their grandparents might be illiterate,

2132
01:18:49,886 --> 01:18:51,632
for example. And then I went to, like,

2133
01:18:52,029 --> 01:18:53,180
a very procedures

2134
01:18:53,880 --> 01:18:54,119
overseas.

2135
01:18:54,840 --> 01:18:57,079
I think there is an extent to which,

2136
01:18:57,159 --> 01:18:57,399
like,

2137
01:18:58,039 --> 01:19:00,840
the older generations might not be able to

2138
01:19:00,840 --> 01:19:03,185
understand the medium of connection that is most

2139
01:19:03,402 --> 01:19:05,629
easy for me I'm more intuitive for me

2140
01:19:05,629 --> 01:19:06,129
personally,

2141
01:19:06,902 --> 01:19:09,447
and something about just, like, making peace with

2142
01:19:09,447 --> 01:19:11,460
that. Is a way of accepting them for

2143
01:19:11,460 --> 01:19:12,020
who they are.

2144
01:19:13,220 --> 01:19:13,460
Yeah.

2145
01:19:14,340 --> 01:19:16,840
Well, I want to preserve both the mystery.

2146
01:19:17,314 --> 01:19:19,552
Around the memory loss and the mystery around

2147
01:19:19,552 --> 01:19:22,427
your sister's silent treatment for the reader. But

2148
01:19:22,508 --> 01:19:25,557
I do think what makes this book richer

2149
01:19:25,557 --> 01:19:28,347
is that it isn't just the discovery of

2150
01:19:28,347 --> 01:19:30,101
1 oneself as a victim,

2151
01:19:31,057 --> 01:19:33,425
but take a more sophisticated look at what

2152
01:19:33,623 --> 01:19:36,176
victims of trauma do with trauma,

2153
01:19:36,894 --> 01:19:39,447
which not uncommon is to reproduce it.

2154
01:19:40,404 --> 01:19:43,376
There are ways you reproduce sort of the

2155
01:19:44,487 --> 01:19:47,516
authoritarian environment that you are susceptible to in

2156
01:19:47,516 --> 01:19:49,750
the book. For instance, in in 1 great

2157
01:19:49,750 --> 01:19:52,302
essay about going to volunteer at an eco

2158
01:19:52,302 --> 01:19:53,749
lodge, in the Baltic,

2159
01:19:54,305 --> 01:19:56,553
only find yourself in an exploit

2160
01:19:57,244 --> 01:19:58,858
authoritarian scam where

2161
01:19:59,708 --> 01:20:02,449
the work you do not only wasn't particularly

2162
01:20:02,748 --> 01:20:03,228
ecological,

2163
01:20:03,787 --> 01:20:06,185
it was mainly funding the owner's vacations.

2164
01:20:07,623 --> 01:20:09,940
Or to a lesser extent you're volunteering at

2165
01:20:09,940 --> 01:20:10,680
a Palestinian

2166
01:20:11,073 --> 01:20:14,445
con in East jerusalem where your Palestinian coworkers

2167
01:20:14,663 --> 01:20:15,403
were my,

2168
01:20:16,099 --> 01:20:18,492
why you would fly across the world to

2169
01:20:18,492 --> 01:20:20,326
wash other people's dishes for free.

2170
01:20:21,538 --> 01:20:22,038
But

2171
01:20:22,815 --> 01:20:24,970
in ways that I won't go into here,

2172
01:20:25,529 --> 01:20:26,189
the book

2173
01:20:26,647 --> 01:20:29,362
also explores the way victims can be victim

2174
01:20:29,362 --> 01:20:29,760
mis.

2175
01:20:30,413 --> 01:20:33,206
The way victims can continue a chain of

2176
01:20:33,206 --> 01:20:33,706
victim.

2177
01:20:34,960 --> 01:20:36,237
Instead of talking about it in the book.

2178
01:20:36,475 --> 01:20:38,230
I wanted to talk about some of what

2179
01:20:38,230 --> 01:20:39,528
you've written about Palestine

2180
01:20:39,905 --> 01:20:40,639
outside of the book.

2181
01:20:41,519 --> 01:20:44,795
You've been very outspoken on social media on

2182
01:20:44,795 --> 01:20:46,734
behalf of Palestine and you've written

2183
01:20:47,273 --> 01:20:49,451
on your blog about your anguish

2184
01:20:50,402 --> 01:20:52,335
regarding the 8 months of d,

2185
01:20:53,904 --> 01:20:55,200
disposition and ind

2186
01:20:56,053 --> 01:20:57,747
destruction and death that

2187
01:20:58,059 --> 01:21:01,350
has been unleashed on an already confined civilian

2188
01:21:01,727 --> 01:21:03,162
population since October seventh.

2189
01:21:04,598 --> 01:21:08,124
Back in late November, you say that something

2190
01:21:08,124 --> 01:21:11,480
had died in you, watching Israel and western

2191
01:21:11,480 --> 01:21:11,960
governments,

2192
01:21:12,838 --> 01:21:15,555
genocide of the Palestinian people unfolding in real

2193
01:21:15,555 --> 01:21:15,716
time.

2194
01:21:17,006 --> 01:21:19,235
That you were so shaken that you couldn't

2195
01:21:19,235 --> 01:21:19,634
shut up.

2196
01:21:20,590 --> 01:21:22,023
And you say at the end of that

2197
01:21:22,023 --> 01:21:24,492
blog post, 6 months ago, quote,

2198
01:21:25,384 --> 01:21:27,621
I will probably feel it until the day

2199
01:21:27,781 --> 01:21:28,180
I die,

2200
01:21:28,899 --> 01:21:29,958
and will probably

2201
01:21:30,417 --> 01:21:33,626
live inside every piece of art or writing

2202
01:21:33,626 --> 01:21:34,901
that I make from now on.

2203
01:21:36,494 --> 01:21:38,407
Before I bring this back to the project

2204
01:21:38,407 --> 01:21:38,965
of your book.

2205
01:21:39,841 --> 01:21:43,202
Let's start exterior as your book does. For

2206
01:21:43,202 --> 01:21:43,441
instance,

2207
01:21:44,396 --> 01:21:46,010
where you talk in your blog

2208
01:21:46,625 --> 01:21:48,159
about the grief you felt

2209
01:21:48,694 --> 01:21:50,047
for a political system,

2210
01:21:50,684 --> 01:21:52,218
you thought you lived in

2211
01:21:52,767 --> 01:21:55,145
but now realized for certain that you had

2212
01:21:55,145 --> 01:21:57,524
never lived in, not for 1 second of

2213
01:21:57,524 --> 01:21:59,927
your life, and where you talk about how

2214
01:22:00,394 --> 01:22:03,927
how the prevailing notion and ideology in Singapore,

2215
01:22:05,184 --> 01:22:07,260
the 1 that you were raised under was

2216
01:22:07,260 --> 01:22:09,595
that leaders by definition were ben.

2217
01:22:09,909 --> 01:22:10,648
And competent.

2218
01:22:12,220 --> 01:22:15,350
You've c written an article with Amir Os

2219
01:22:15,568 --> 01:22:16,068
about

2220
01:22:16,604 --> 01:22:17,422
some slides

2221
01:22:17,734 --> 01:22:18,472
from Singapore

2222
01:22:18,846 --> 01:22:21,387
ministry of education that were meant to teach

2223
01:22:21,387 --> 01:22:21,887
students

2224
01:22:22,261 --> 01:22:23,079
about Gaza

2225
01:22:23,533 --> 01:22:26,154
and about the uproar and controversy that these

2226
01:22:26,154 --> 01:22:27,028
slides caused.

2227
01:22:28,393 --> 01:22:29,901
I wanted to make a space for you

2228
01:22:29,901 --> 01:22:31,251
to speak about Palestine,

2229
01:22:31,726 --> 01:22:33,020
but also perhaps

2230
01:22:33,870 --> 01:22:35,164
share with us about the

2231
01:22:35,633 --> 01:22:38,603
particular situation of Singapore in relation to Palestine

2232
01:22:38,661 --> 01:22:41,370
too? Yeah. This is another difficult 1, where,

2233
01:22:41,609 --> 01:22:42,667
I feel like I don't

2234
01:22:43,060 --> 01:22:44,260
I want to answer it in a evaluate

2235
01:22:44,420 --> 01:22:46,279
I don't speak on behalf of everyone

2236
01:22:46,579 --> 01:22:48,739
everywhere from Because there are many many people

2237
01:22:48,739 --> 01:22:51,539
and... And actually people have very different views

2238
01:22:51,539 --> 01:22:51,939
lenders.

2239
01:22:52,754 --> 01:22:53,949
So I think a lot of pets that

2240
01:22:53,949 --> 01:22:56,101
your pushed. Right? 1 of them is the

2241
01:22:56,101 --> 01:22:57,797
grief I feel, which

2242
01:22:58,413 --> 01:23:00,587
actually, for me the most interesting question

2243
01:23:01,139 --> 01:23:03,314
Arguably of the past 9 months

2244
01:23:03,850 --> 01:23:04,988
is why

2245
01:23:05,525 --> 01:23:09,354
is it that this grief and anger at

2246
01:23:09,354 --> 01:23:11,677
seeing the sites that I have seen and

2247
01:23:11,837 --> 01:23:13,981
I would say many people on Earth have

2248
01:23:13,981 --> 01:23:16,921
seen, why is it that this thing which

2249
01:23:16,921 --> 01:23:19,780
my body instinctively does upon seeing these horrific

2250
01:23:19,780 --> 01:23:22,023
horrific sites. But, you, I've I've seen, like,

2251
01:23:22,103 --> 01:23:24,173
a person's leak get shredded. I've seen, like,

2252
01:23:24,412 --> 01:23:25,926
you know, like, really horrible things.

2253
01:23:26,881 --> 01:23:28,417
Why is it that somehow

2254
01:23:28,872 --> 01:23:29,372
that

2255
01:23:29,843 --> 01:23:32,156
instinct of feeding does not translate into the

2256
01:23:32,156 --> 01:23:34,788
level of politics and into the level of

2257
01:23:34,788 --> 01:23:35,666
collective action.

2258
01:23:36,463 --> 01:23:38,059
I think for me of the question debt,

2259
01:23:38,457 --> 01:23:39,095
nor like,

2260
01:23:39,908 --> 01:23:43,340
profoundly disturb me, but also energizes me. And

2261
01:23:43,340 --> 01:23:44,697
maybe that's what I meant when I said

2262
01:23:44,697 --> 01:23:46,372
that... I think it will be there always

2263
01:23:46,372 --> 01:23:47,091
in my writing.

2264
01:23:47,742 --> 01:23:48,878
The level of d

2265
01:23:49,572 --> 01:23:50,708
that I see happening

2266
01:23:51,083 --> 01:23:51,902
in the media

2267
01:23:52,277 --> 01:23:52,992
at the moment.

2268
01:23:53,628 --> 01:23:55,474
I think there is a way in which

2269
01:23:55,633 --> 01:23:57,463
I understand for having written the story game

2270
01:23:57,463 --> 01:24:00,407
is not really possible to d another person

2271
01:24:00,407 --> 01:24:02,715
to that extent. Unless in some way, you

2272
01:24:02,715 --> 01:24:05,360
also believe. That you are not human. You

2273
01:24:05,360 --> 01:24:07,355
know, In some way, you... It's not very

2274
01:24:07,355 --> 01:24:09,271
positive Not very easy to d and another

2275
01:24:09,271 --> 01:24:10,888
person representative you yourself are d

2276
01:24:11,266 --> 01:24:11,766
because

2277
01:24:12,078 --> 01:24:13,988
as much as you recognize your own experience

2278
01:24:13,988 --> 01:24:15,580
of self but you are able to afford

2279
01:24:15,580 --> 01:24:17,809
that grace to another person, and you are

2280
01:24:17,809 --> 01:24:19,877
able to recognize that they probably feel that

2281
01:24:19,877 --> 01:24:20,832
same way about themselves.

2282
01:24:21,723 --> 01:24:24,353
Of, and I think for, I the status

2283
01:24:24,353 --> 01:24:26,663
and most like, troubling thing because I've realized

2284
01:24:26,663 --> 01:24:28,416
that many, many people around me.

2285
01:24:29,306 --> 01:24:30,818
In this industry, that was just like Social.

2286
01:24:31,851 --> 01:24:33,600
And also many of my friends, Right, who

2287
01:24:33,600 --> 01:24:35,509
are in this government menu mentioned, the singapore

2288
01:24:35,509 --> 01:24:37,259
about government moment it has done a lot,

2289
01:24:37,577 --> 01:24:39,579
actually the rep repressed. People who want to

2290
01:24:39,579 --> 01:24:40,770
speak up of who just want to voice

2291
01:24:40,770 --> 01:24:41,645
is how unhappy,

2292
01:24:42,201 --> 01:24:44,664
how shaken they are, even that voicing,

2293
01:24:45,618 --> 01:24:47,127
you know, it's something that's seen as a

2294
01:24:47,127 --> 01:24:48,896
threat security and must be stamped out.

2295
01:24:49,694 --> 01:24:50,194
And

2296
01:24:50,572 --> 01:24:51,051
perhaps this,

2297
01:24:52,487 --> 01:24:54,640
somebody who's is not from a social position

2298
01:24:54,640 --> 01:24:56,484
with find it very easy to print criticize,

2299
01:24:56,642 --> 01:24:58,467
You know, like, all government officials. I just,

2300
01:24:58,546 --> 01:25:01,244
like, homeless people who only care about, like,

2301
01:25:01,404 --> 01:25:01,720
you know,

2302
01:25:03,090 --> 01:25:06,050
efficacy and about material concerns of security indeed

2303
01:25:06,050 --> 01:25:07,730
have no hot, you know? But I cannot

2304
01:25:07,730 --> 01:25:09,170
say that... Because these are people Are went

2305
01:25:09,170 --> 01:25:11,891
to school with Beside the children who were

2306
01:25:11,891 --> 01:25:13,481
streamed with me at age night and do

2307
01:25:13,481 --> 01:25:15,309
this stream. And I remember what they were

2308
01:25:15,309 --> 01:25:16,739
like when we were 10 years or 11

2309
01:25:16,739 --> 01:25:18,906
years old I remember that, you know, we

2310
01:25:18,906 --> 01:25:20,343
used the play game, and I remember the

2311
01:25:20,343 --> 01:25:23,057
deaf feeling. I remember, like, yeah. Shame when,

2312
01:25:23,136 --> 01:25:24,734
like, the teacher called under, and they don't

2313
01:25:24,734 --> 01:25:26,743
answer correctly. I remember like Jeff is cash.

2314
01:25:26,903 --> 01:25:29,045
I just remember all these small thing to

2315
01:25:29,045 --> 01:25:31,505
such a huge extent that I cannot stop

2316
01:25:31,505 --> 01:25:33,591
seeing them as real people. And

2317
01:25:34,138 --> 01:25:36,149
something about reconciling debt

2318
01:25:36,604 --> 01:25:38,989
with the level of d denuclearization that they

2319
01:25:38,989 --> 01:25:41,773
are now executing makes me in some very

2320
01:25:41,773 --> 01:25:43,940
set it makes me feel very, very sad,

2321
01:25:44,180 --> 01:25:46,095
be left almost, I think for a lot

2322
01:25:46,095 --> 01:25:48,170
of my friends because I realized that Ne

2323
01:25:48,170 --> 01:25:49,526
feels such a great emptiness.

2324
01:25:50,099 --> 01:25:51,776
That they can also treat other people as

2325
01:25:51,776 --> 01:25:53,771
if they are empty containers with no soul.

2326
01:25:54,331 --> 01:25:56,268
And, you know, I I know only feel

2327
01:25:56,326 --> 01:25:57,284
be and set

2328
01:25:57,763 --> 01:25:58,721
as an outsider,

2329
01:26:00,012 --> 01:26:02,243
I think I also empathize because... When I

2330
01:26:02,243 --> 01:26:03,596
first started at writing the story review and

2331
01:26:03,596 --> 01:26:05,110
the person who I was at that time.

2332
01:26:05,827 --> 01:26:07,180
I mean, I think I would still have

2333
01:26:07,180 --> 01:26:08,136
been, like, this is terrible.

2334
01:26:08,628 --> 01:26:10,639
But the feeling would not have been so...

2335
01:26:11,093 --> 01:26:12,207
It would not have been so rude it

2336
01:26:12,207 --> 01:26:14,035
and so bone deep inside me. It would

2337
01:26:14,035 --> 01:26:15,784
not have been a feeling that I feel

2338
01:26:15,784 --> 01:26:17,310
every morning went out. Wake up, and I

2339
01:26:17,310 --> 01:26:19,617
look at the news, you know, it would

2340
01:26:19,617 --> 01:26:20,731
have just been like, yeah. This is the

2341
01:26:20,731 --> 01:26:22,004
thing that I should say. And so I

2342
01:26:22,004 --> 01:26:23,993
say it. Kind all. Like, a progressive person

2343
01:26:24,072 --> 01:26:25,479
I should say this thing so I say

2344
01:26:25,678 --> 01:26:27,268
Okay. Yeah. But it but no, I have

2345
01:26:27,268 --> 01:26:29,414
come from a real of, like, my stomach

2346
01:26:29,414 --> 01:26:32,196
hurts, like my my hair hurts, like, I

2347
01:26:32,196 --> 01:26:34,104
feel like this is turning, feeling and inside

2348
01:26:34,104 --> 01:26:36,112
me and feel like, I must say something,

2349
01:26:36,271 --> 01:26:36,591
You know?

2350
01:26:37,628 --> 01:26:40,343
I I really loved some of your engagement

2351
01:26:40,343 --> 01:26:42,259
with us and the questions that have come

2352
01:26:42,259 --> 01:26:44,175
up for you on your blog around it.

2353
01:26:44,509 --> 01:26:45,943
You talk about how you grew up in

2354
01:26:45,943 --> 01:26:48,253
a a zion Christian church,

2355
01:26:48,890 --> 01:26:50,883
and as a young adult left your faith.

2356
01:26:51,931 --> 01:26:54,627
Nevertheless in your blog post in October of

2357
01:26:54,627 --> 01:26:57,187
last year you talk about with your heartbreaking

2358
01:26:57,322 --> 01:26:59,636
over Gaza that you found yourself wanting to

2359
01:26:59,636 --> 01:27:02,179
play old songs from your Christian passed on

2360
01:27:02,179 --> 01:27:05,833
the guitar, something that my you because you

2361
01:27:05,833 --> 01:27:07,502
no longer held any of these beliefs.

2362
01:27:08,312 --> 01:27:10,404
And you even felt embarrassed showing

2363
01:27:10,779 --> 01:27:12,609
this side of yourself to your husband who

2364
01:27:12,609 --> 01:27:14,280
had never witnessed this part of you.

2365
01:27:15,235 --> 01:27:16,270
And you say, quote,

2366
01:27:17,479 --> 01:27:19,552
I needed to sing the old songs to

2367
01:27:19,552 --> 01:27:21,786
remember in a time where my feelings are

2368
01:27:21,786 --> 01:27:23,243
running particularly high

2369
01:27:23,700 --> 01:27:24,679
that the other

2370
01:27:25,056 --> 01:27:26,652
is not out there in the world.

2371
01:27:27,384 --> 01:27:30,325
As a thing to reject and smear and

2372
01:27:30,325 --> 01:27:32,790
direct immense amounts of hatred towards.

2373
01:27:33,664 --> 01:27:36,068
It feels uncomfortable to admit this, but the

2374
01:27:36,068 --> 01:27:38,703
other is in me actually, in some ways,

2375
01:27:38,942 --> 01:27:41,177
it is me is a part of me

2376
01:27:41,177 --> 01:27:43,493
that I can bring up every once in

2377
01:27:43,493 --> 01:27:46,462
a while and still have genuinely strong feelings

2378
01:27:46,462 --> 01:27:49,259
of connection and gratitude towards even though I

2379
01:27:49,259 --> 01:27:50,778
no longer identify with it.

2380
01:27:51,576 --> 01:27:52,614
And then later you say,

2381
01:27:53,668 --> 01:27:56,622
We have to accept that both these potentials

2382
01:27:56,622 --> 01:27:58,797
to dominate and be dominated,

2383
01:27:59,654 --> 01:28:02,484
l dormant in every single human heart, including

2384
01:28:02,542 --> 01:28:02,939
our own.

2385
01:28:03,657 --> 01:28:05,113
And when I look at the zion

2386
01:28:05,488 --> 01:28:08,197
rhetoric that is currently flooding our news channels,

2387
01:28:08,435 --> 01:28:10,188
what I see is a group of people

2388
01:28:10,188 --> 01:28:10,960
who have been

2389
01:28:11,396 --> 01:28:14,413
completely unable to accept the presence of this

2390
01:28:14,413 --> 01:28:15,683
duality within themselves.

2391
01:28:17,271 --> 01:28:19,176
Even though this is all from outside the

2392
01:28:19,176 --> 01:28:19,336
book,

2393
01:28:20,303 --> 01:28:23,324
It does feel like this spirit animate the

2394
01:28:23,324 --> 01:28:24,937
story game, a book that

2395
01:28:25,470 --> 01:28:27,640
you and others have var called

2396
01:28:28,189 --> 01:28:29,247
a book of self

2397
01:28:29,783 --> 01:28:32,037
situation or a book about loneliness,

2398
01:28:32,971 --> 01:28:35,443
but it's also a book about control and

2399
01:28:35,443 --> 01:28:35,943
power

2400
01:28:36,733 --> 01:28:38,487
where in becoming a self,

2401
01:28:39,204 --> 01:28:41,835
you also imp the self at the same

2402
01:28:41,835 --> 01:28:43,929
time. And I wondered if you see that

2403
01:28:44,067 --> 01:28:44,305
connection,

2404
01:28:44,877 --> 01:28:46,780
between the 2 that in some ways,

2405
01:28:47,731 --> 01:28:49,421
this book is also engaging

2406
01:28:49,792 --> 01:28:51,719
with the other in the self

2407
01:28:52,663 --> 01:28:54,974
I think that's what the the construct of

2408
01:28:54,974 --> 01:28:57,466
my sister represents. Right? Because

2409
01:28:58,400 --> 01:28:59,697
I think there is a way

2410
01:29:00,169 --> 01:29:02,004
where at the beginning of this book. I

2411
01:29:02,004 --> 01:29:04,238
am integrating this other into myself, but it's

2412
01:29:04,238 --> 01:29:05,674
not a true other. You know what I

2413
01:29:05,674 --> 01:29:07,841
mean? I think that I actually go through

2414
01:29:07,841 --> 01:29:09,747
the entire book without once touching my true

2415
01:29:09,747 --> 01:29:11,573
sister as you yourselves sit until the very

2416
01:29:11,573 --> 01:29:13,796
end of the book. That's the only moment

2417
01:29:13,796 --> 01:29:15,543
in which she is truly out, and I

2418
01:29:15,543 --> 01:29:17,789
truly have made a little space within myself

2419
01:29:17,789 --> 01:29:20,750
or someone who could, you know, really threaten

2420
01:29:20,750 --> 01:29:21,469
my worldview.

2421
01:29:22,189 --> 01:29:23,789
You know, it's very easy I think to

2422
01:29:23,789 --> 01:29:25,962
think you have a relationship with another person,

2423
01:29:26,201 --> 01:29:28,115
but actually you join. Is very easy to

2424
01:29:28,115 --> 01:29:29,790
think that you know who another person is

2425
01:29:29,790 --> 01:29:31,466
and what they believe and what they want

2426
01:29:31,466 --> 01:29:34,257
from you of what viewpoint they hold towards

2427
01:29:34,257 --> 01:29:34,416
you.

2428
01:29:35,229 --> 01:29:38,096
And kind of maybe not paradox because I

2429
01:29:38,096 --> 01:29:39,951
think it does makes sense that the further

2430
01:29:40,009 --> 01:29:42,160
away you actually are from the further it

2431
01:29:42,160 --> 01:29:44,398
is the easier and easier is to integrate

2432
01:29:44,398 --> 01:29:46,064
this kind of, like, false cell or like

2433
01:29:46,064 --> 01:29:48,287
your projection of the other person into you

2434
01:29:48,287 --> 01:29:50,033
and to think that you're engaging with another

2435
01:29:50,033 --> 01:29:52,273
person, you know, they really truly believe that...

2436
01:29:52,431 --> 01:29:54,102
Yeah. This thing that you have is wise.

2437
01:29:54,261 --> 01:29:56,488
Hey, Off, there's some kind of emotional energy

2438
01:29:56,488 --> 01:29:59,212
being exchanged between you. When, really, it's just

2439
01:29:59,212 --> 01:30:01,205
you exchanging emotional energy of yourself.

2440
01:30:02,003 --> 01:30:03,359
And I think the at the start of

2441
01:30:03,359 --> 01:30:05,432
story game. This was my relationship with the

2442
01:30:05,432 --> 01:30:07,586
other who, maybe my sister sends in for

2443
01:30:07,586 --> 01:30:08,039
the other

2444
01:30:08,556 --> 01:30:09,669
and with a sense of rich which, you

2445
01:30:09,669 --> 01:30:11,259
know, I can talk about all these people.

2446
01:30:11,417 --> 01:30:12,689
Like, you know, I can worry about people

2447
01:30:12,689 --> 01:30:14,596
in value. Just people in barely on masse.

2448
01:30:14,756 --> 01:30:16,981
You know Just like, as when Gigantic decor,

2449
01:30:17,474 --> 01:30:19,308
And I think that I have a relationship

2450
01:30:19,308 --> 01:30:20,823
with them. You know, I think that I

2451
01:30:20,823 --> 01:30:23,057
have very intelligent. And I do have very

2452
01:30:23,057 --> 01:30:25,449
intelligent news it and wealth formed parts to

2453
01:30:25,449 --> 01:30:27,226
say about them. But

2454
01:30:27,538 --> 01:30:29,371
It's not about them. You know, it's about

2455
01:30:29,371 --> 01:30:31,043
me actually the Every everywhere I go I

2456
01:30:31,043 --> 01:30:32,717
see me in the other person, and I

2457
01:30:32,717 --> 01:30:34,708
see my own insecurities and my own fears.

2458
01:30:34,947 --> 01:30:36,381
And only be at the very, very end

2459
01:30:36,461 --> 01:30:38,314
I'm, like, I have made in enough space

2460
01:30:38,314 --> 01:30:40,395
just, like, 1 person. Like, the person who

2461
01:30:40,395 --> 01:30:42,234
is closer closest doing me and, you know,

2462
01:30:42,314 --> 01:30:43,295
who I love the

2463
01:30:43,675 --> 01:30:46,083
to pick up that little speech. And in

2464
01:30:46,083 --> 01:30:48,787
terms of how relates to diana swift, I

2465
01:30:48,787 --> 01:30:48,947
guess,

2466
01:30:49,742 --> 01:30:51,572
probably affects years I know. But

2467
01:30:52,463 --> 01:30:54,858
I think that often I see people engaging,

2468
01:30:54,937 --> 01:30:55,815
you know what they say, like,

2469
01:30:56,533 --> 01:30:58,050
the other is like this. The other is

2470
01:30:58,050 --> 01:30:58,368
like that.

2471
01:30:59,167 --> 01:30:59,667
But

2472
01:31:00,059 --> 01:31:01,571
It doesn't feel like the person you're talking

2473
01:31:01,571 --> 01:31:03,720
about is a real person or real people,

2474
01:31:04,038 --> 01:31:06,346
you know, It feels like they're engaging often

2475
01:31:06,346 --> 01:31:08,828
with, like, protections. They have written. I think

2476
01:31:08,828 --> 01:31:10,819
as a sense, you can feel that you

2477
01:31:10,819 --> 01:31:12,593
can see that there is just 1

2478
01:31:12,968 --> 01:31:15,278
feeling that keep getting recurrent to in the

2479
01:31:15,278 --> 01:31:15,595
comments.

2480
01:31:16,088 --> 01:31:17,362
And I think in in in this case,

2481
01:31:17,441 --> 01:31:19,032
from what I've been reading on social media.

2482
01:31:19,270 --> 01:31:19,747
I lot yeah,

2483
01:31:20,543 --> 01:31:22,904
you know, A lot of, feelings of of

2484
01:31:23,104 --> 01:31:25,333
worry about being themselves of obliterated. And so

2485
01:31:25,413 --> 01:31:27,802
I must of literary other person. But actually,

2486
01:31:27,962 --> 01:31:29,077
how do you know, you know, how do

2487
01:31:29,077 --> 01:31:30,511
you know what the other person things unless

2488
01:31:30,511 --> 01:31:31,387
you talked to them?

2489
01:31:32,358 --> 01:31:34,109
Yeah. You you just never... You can never

2490
01:31:34,109 --> 01:31:36,019
know. And unless you... And as you take

2491
01:31:36,019 --> 01:31:37,928
that step out, do the real world, and

2492
01:31:37,928 --> 01:31:39,042
you may another person.

2493
01:31:39,694 --> 01:31:41,770
You you really, you know, they might be

2494
01:31:41,770 --> 01:31:43,865
completely outside of the framework of references

2495
01:31:44,243 --> 01:31:45,680
that you believe to be the whole wall.

2496
01:31:46,478 --> 01:31:48,568
Yeah. The world is update. Think that's why

2497
01:31:48,568 --> 01:31:50,724
would say. And there was a place composed

2498
01:31:50,724 --> 01:31:51,782
of genuinely

2499
01:31:52,400 --> 01:31:55,354
other people. Yeah. And without them, it's so

2500
01:31:55,354 --> 01:31:57,270
lonely. It's so lonely to live in a

2501
01:31:57,270 --> 01:31:58,885
wealth of your own making,

2502
01:31:59,444 --> 01:32:00,725
to be so no need that you were

2503
01:32:00,725 --> 01:32:03,784
in invent people, you know, to invent people

2504
01:32:03,844 --> 01:32:06,005
to dominate over, and then carry out that

2505
01:32:06,005 --> 01:32:07,204
domination against their flesh and blood.

2506
01:32:07,856 --> 01:32:08,731
Let a blood,

2507
01:32:09,368 --> 01:32:11,595
at the wall. It's so there. It's such

2508
01:32:11,595 --> 01:32:13,902
a lonely only position. Yeah.

2509
01:32:15,113 --> 01:32:17,031
Do you wanna talk a little bit about

2510
01:32:17,031 --> 01:32:19,587
some of the organizing and activism that you're

2511
01:32:19,587 --> 01:32:21,185
doing? I would actually.

2512
01:32:21,757 --> 01:32:23,980
So I've been organizing with a group in

2513
01:32:23,980 --> 01:32:26,203
the Uk called Fossil free books.

2514
01:32:27,077 --> 01:32:29,086
We are, like, a loose kind of collective

2515
01:32:29,221 --> 01:32:30,435
of many different

2516
01:32:30,904 --> 01:32:32,734
people in the books industries and some of

2517
01:32:32,734 --> 01:32:33,632
us at authors,

2518
01:32:34,325 --> 01:32:36,951
some of us out publishing workers or, you

2519
01:32:36,951 --> 01:32:39,519
know, they brand podcasts, for example, are reviewers

2520
01:32:39,656 --> 01:32:41,573
of people who were at literary festivals.

2521
01:32:42,207 --> 01:32:44,822
And then we've all come together to kind

2522
01:32:44,822 --> 01:32:46,723
of julie's our position as workers,

2523
01:32:47,214 --> 01:32:49,703
to try and get the books industry here

2524
01:32:50,078 --> 01:32:51,748
to play a role in a dives diverse

2525
01:32:51,748 --> 01:32:52,067
project,

2526
01:32:52,703 --> 01:32:55,900
from companies that sponsoring that is really gen

2527
01:32:55,900 --> 01:32:58,287
genocide at the moment and also companies that

2528
01:32:58,287 --> 01:33:00,675
have investment in fossil fuels. But I never

2529
01:33:00,675 --> 01:33:02,362
like to say about this. So for me,

2530
01:33:02,441 --> 01:33:04,512
they're very rare interesting thing that I have

2531
01:33:04,512 --> 01:33:07,563
found from organizing in this way is that,

2532
01:33:08,098 --> 01:33:09,771
you know, the thing that actually fuck free

2533
01:33:09,771 --> 01:33:12,253
book is asking for is we are asking

2534
01:33:12,253 --> 01:33:16,302
the literary festival, to utilize our relationship, the

2535
01:33:16,302 --> 01:33:18,524
relationship that they have with, for example, Bailey

2536
01:33:18,604 --> 01:33:19,001
Gif,

2537
01:33:19,476 --> 01:33:22,113
who is an investment firm to invest in

2538
01:33:22,113 --> 01:33:24,021
a lot of very problematic project, They're saying,

2539
01:33:24,180 --> 01:33:26,009
okay. You have this relationship with them. Right?

2540
01:33:26,247 --> 01:33:28,155
So for you use this relationship to try

2541
01:33:28,155 --> 01:33:30,078
and ask them to dives vest of know,

2542
01:33:30,238 --> 01:33:31,991
if we pull out our labor as workers

2543
01:33:31,991 --> 01:33:34,143
and as authors from the literary festivals,

2544
01:33:34,700 --> 01:33:37,011
can you use that as a bargaining trip

2545
01:33:37,011 --> 01:33:39,498
with, you baby give and see please. Either,

2546
01:33:39,578 --> 01:33:41,492
our authors are not coming back. But what

2547
01:33:41,492 --> 01:33:43,646
has happened actually as a result of that

2548
01:33:43,646 --> 01:33:45,800
is that baby gif while some festival cut

2549
01:33:45,800 --> 01:33:48,127
your has for baby give and then baby

2550
01:33:48,127 --> 01:33:50,198
give it themselves just drop all the festival

2551
01:33:50,198 --> 01:33:52,770
in the Uk including huge est like hay

2552
01:33:52,907 --> 01:33:54,501
and Edinburgh book festival,

2553
01:33:54,993 --> 01:33:56,510
they shut them down. No. They didn't shut

2554
01:33:56,510 --> 01:33:58,662
the festival down. The the... The festival was

2555
01:33:58,662 --> 01:34:00,678
going on, but then the company

2556
01:34:01,216 --> 01:34:02,491
has the decided to cut highest of the

2557
01:34:02,491 --> 01:34:04,485
festival, So they no longer sponsored their festival.

2558
01:34:04,899 --> 01:34:06,260
And as a result of that, there's been

2559
01:34:06,260 --> 01:34:08,840
a lot of, kind of like backlash and

2560
01:34:08,979 --> 01:34:11,380
the Uk media where people are, like, oh,

2561
01:34:11,539 --> 01:34:13,380
you know, you want your festivals to be

2562
01:34:13,380 --> 01:34:16,022
secure and clean And that's terrible because who's

2563
01:34:16,022 --> 01:34:18,243
gonna find out festivals all it. And I

2564
01:34:18,243 --> 01:34:21,020
find that this misleading of the entire campaign

2565
01:34:21,020 --> 01:34:22,368
aims is very interesting.

2566
01:34:23,659 --> 01:34:26,140
You know, we're talking about projections. Right? I

2567
01:34:26,140 --> 01:34:27,900
feel like this is not at all what

2568
01:34:27,900 --> 01:34:29,739
our campaign was asking for. We were saying

2569
01:34:29,739 --> 01:34:31,820
you let... You don't mind bailey gift like

2570
01:34:31,820 --> 01:34:34,150
leave. We want you to utilize the radiation

2571
01:34:34,150 --> 01:34:36,225
that you have with Daily give to ask

2572
01:34:36,225 --> 01:34:38,301
them to do something different. You know, because,

2573
01:34:38,460 --> 01:34:40,216
like, if festival I've gone around for you

2574
01:34:40,216 --> 01:34:42,470
they, you know, We love baby care. Like

2575
01:34:42,470 --> 01:34:44,550
we have a special relationship with a relationship

2576
01:34:44,550 --> 01:34:45,430
of closeness.

2577
01:34:45,909 --> 01:34:47,510
And this group not to read a cave

2578
01:34:47,510 --> 01:34:49,202
at all of good best sign of trouble,

2579
01:34:49,442 --> 01:34:51,276
really good at just cut in this. And

2580
01:34:51,435 --> 01:34:53,748
I feel like the public has chosen to

2581
01:34:53,748 --> 01:34:55,582
see this has chosen to read it in

2582
01:34:55,582 --> 01:34:57,737
a certain rate, Like, we want more purity.

2583
01:34:58,785 --> 01:35:01,324
By think that, you know, it often people

2584
01:35:01,324 --> 01:35:03,784
see you, and if they're seeing you, they

2585
01:35:03,784 --> 01:35:05,372
only see what they want you to be.

2586
01:35:05,531 --> 01:35:07,133
They only see that projection of you. Know,

2587
01:35:07,212 --> 01:35:08,559
you're just talking about it. Right With was

2588
01:35:08,559 --> 01:35:09,034
zion?

2589
01:35:09,431 --> 01:35:10,937
I think this is happening in the Uk?

2590
01:35:11,175 --> 01:35:13,156
Because I find it so interesting. Like, why

2591
01:35:13,156 --> 01:35:15,314
do why aren't people? You know chosen to

2592
01:35:15,314 --> 01:35:17,540
a situation in this particular way. Is it

2593
01:35:17,540 --> 01:35:18,994
because they feel insecure

2594
01:35:19,368 --> 01:35:22,072
about their period, like, the ability to have,

2595
01:35:22,231 --> 01:35:25,826
like, pure, a pure experience of of of

2596
01:35:25,826 --> 01:35:26,860
the arts, you know?

2597
01:35:27,576 --> 01:35:29,007
Because there's no ads for at all.

2598
01:35:30,058 --> 01:35:31,095
Just to go back at a story game,

2599
01:35:31,255 --> 01:35:32,690
kind of, like, the link because I feel

2600
01:35:32,690 --> 01:35:34,764
like fits the wavelength blank for me, You

2601
01:35:34,764 --> 01:35:36,279
know, and at the end of the story

2602
01:35:36,279 --> 01:35:38,034
as a part where I talk about my

2603
01:35:38,034 --> 01:35:39,524
relationship with my sister, and I see it

2604
01:35:39,724 --> 01:35:41,556
many years. I thought she was so selfish.

2605
01:35:41,954 --> 01:35:43,627
I thought she was a really selfish bitch

2606
01:35:43,627 --> 01:35:44,982
person. Like she was selfish bitch.

2607
01:35:45,858 --> 01:35:47,611
I felt I had no I had no

2608
01:35:47,611 --> 01:35:49,460
sense self. I didn't have this for this

2609
01:35:49,460 --> 01:35:51,297
thing inside me that was able to assert

2610
01:35:51,297 --> 01:35:53,215
and, like, stand out for myself. So when

2611
01:35:53,375 --> 01:35:55,292
I saw it in another person, it was

2612
01:35:55,292 --> 01:35:56,944
into. It was like, I felt

2613
01:35:57,462 --> 01:35:59,296
extreme resentment, and I was, like, you can't

2614
01:35:59,296 --> 01:36:01,448
have that quality, or, like, because you have

2615
01:36:01,448 --> 01:36:03,123
that quality, I can't have it. You know,

2616
01:36:03,283 --> 01:36:05,116
you took like, all the selfish that's in

2617
01:36:05,116 --> 01:36:07,127
the world, and then I have not for

2618
01:36:07,127 --> 01:36:08,962
myself, So I've left as a selfless person.

2619
01:36:09,281 --> 01:36:11,277
And sometimes when I see the public,

2620
01:36:11,836 --> 01:36:13,831
kind of response to fossil free books at

2621
01:36:13,831 --> 01:36:16,235
a wave a public has misread our campaign.

2622
01:36:16,553 --> 01:36:18,861
That's why I'm reminded of, you know, they're

2623
01:36:18,861 --> 01:36:21,327
like, you can afford to be morally pure

2624
01:36:21,327 --> 01:36:22,840
of your author. And then we... We had

2625
01:36:22,840 --> 01:36:24,765
no choice. You So we're a example. You

2626
01:36:24,765 --> 01:36:26,597
can't be morally pure because if we can't

2627
01:36:26,597 --> 01:36:28,510
be no I can be. And I feel

2628
01:36:28,510 --> 01:36:30,262
like, this for. That's a very interesting, Christian.

2629
01:36:30,502 --> 01:36:31,936
I guess are there any British lives on

2630
01:36:31,936 --> 01:36:33,585
it. Thank sure I would ask,

2631
01:36:34,183 --> 01:36:35,779
you know, why? Why do you think that

2632
01:36:35,779 --> 01:36:37,614
you can be more already pure? And that

2633
01:36:37,614 --> 01:36:39,609
that is the purview of authors. And then

2634
01:36:39,609 --> 01:36:41,697
you get said that you see when you

2635
01:36:41,697 --> 01:36:44,002
see others exercising the thing that actually a

2636
01:36:44,002 --> 01:36:46,704
very normal healthy human trait. You know, why

2637
01:36:46,704 --> 01:36:48,136
do... Is it because you feel like you

2638
01:36:48,136 --> 01:36:50,043
can't have that truth? And if so why.

2639
01:36:50,282 --> 01:36:52,051
Right? They're interesting to me.

2640
01:36:53,007 --> 01:36:54,762
Yeah. It's interesting to me too.

2641
01:36:55,560 --> 01:36:58,431
Well, as a final question, and in talking

2642
01:36:58,431 --> 01:36:59,171
about your

2643
01:36:59,548 --> 01:37:00,367
agent Allison,

2644
01:37:00,839 --> 01:37:04,180
and how she both identified anger, buried and

2645
01:37:04,180 --> 01:37:06,407
unspoken in your writing and how she wanted

2646
01:37:06,407 --> 01:37:07,282
to bring it forward.

2647
01:37:07,932 --> 01:37:10,072
You've said that your next manuscript will come

2648
01:37:10,072 --> 01:37:10,786
from anger,

2649
01:37:11,499 --> 01:37:13,560
but you've also said on your blog, the

2650
01:37:13,560 --> 01:37:14,035
following,

2651
01:37:14,511 --> 01:37:14,828
quote,

2652
01:37:15,479 --> 01:37:17,234
Lately, I've been thinking a lot about the

2653
01:37:17,234 --> 01:37:19,865
role played by the other in my creative

2654
01:37:19,865 --> 01:37:20,265
process.

2655
01:37:20,823 --> 01:37:22,737
I wrote the story game more or less

2656
01:37:22,737 --> 01:37:24,572
within the constraints of my own mind.

2657
01:37:25,304 --> 01:37:27,611
And to some extent within the constraints of

2658
01:37:27,611 --> 01:37:28,270
my own

2659
01:37:28,963 --> 01:37:29,361
system.

2660
01:37:30,077 --> 01:37:32,199
And the book needed that, it wanted it

2661
01:37:32,478 --> 01:37:34,703
because it was an exploration of the coping

2662
01:37:34,703 --> 01:37:35,203
mechanisms,

2663
01:37:35,975 --> 01:37:38,360
a person can come up with to deal

2664
01:37:38,360 --> 01:37:39,474
with extreme loneliness.

2665
01:37:40,283 --> 01:37:42,194
But this new book, this second book,

2666
01:37:42,829 --> 01:37:45,478
I think it wants something else. It wants

2667
01:37:45,933 --> 01:37:46,433
another

2668
01:37:46,887 --> 01:37:48,718
in a different way than the first book

2669
01:37:48,718 --> 01:37:49,218
did

2670
01:37:49,688 --> 01:37:50,586
something like

2671
01:37:50,962 --> 01:37:53,349
it needs other people in order to be

2672
01:37:53,349 --> 01:37:55,497
written in order to find its way.

2673
01:37:56,292 --> 01:37:59,331
Something that comes from the outside to un

2674
01:37:59,331 --> 01:38:00,604
settle the inside.

2675
01:38:01,239 --> 01:38:02,831
In the way that a single line of

2676
01:38:02,831 --> 01:38:04,682
dialogue from another person

2677
01:38:05,217 --> 01:38:08,978
can instantaneously un unsettled the entire world of

2678
01:38:08,978 --> 01:38:09,478
assumptions

2679
01:38:09,936 --> 01:38:10,996
you've built up

2680
01:38:11,375 --> 01:38:12,594
inside your own head

2681
01:38:13,052 --> 01:38:15,370
about who they are and what they want.

2682
01:38:16,584 --> 01:38:18,443
In light of that, I wondered if you

2683
01:38:18,502 --> 01:38:21,378
feel comfortable sharing anything about what you're working

2684
01:38:21,378 --> 01:38:23,856
on now or what you imagine you'll be

2685
01:38:23,856 --> 01:38:24,655
working on next.

2686
01:38:25,626 --> 01:38:27,457
Yeah. More that that 1 I think.

2687
01:38:28,332 --> 01:38:30,082
So you can confirm me I always see

2688
01:38:30,082 --> 01:38:33,198
the endpoint much, much, much. Earlier than then

2689
01:38:33,358 --> 01:38:35,738
I see the journey. So I see, like,

2690
01:38:35,818 --> 01:38:37,722
the final goal. Like, with the story game,

2691
01:38:37,881 --> 01:38:39,706
for example, very early on in a process,

2692
01:38:39,865 --> 01:38:41,548
I told someone. I think I'm gonna write

2693
01:38:41,548 --> 01:38:43,005
a book that will be

2694
01:38:43,381 --> 01:38:45,054
who thinks it's true and 1 that falls.

2695
01:38:45,373 --> 01:38:46,648
And I feel like this is the... I

2696
01:38:46,648 --> 01:38:48,502
need to write a book about this and

2697
01:38:48,975 --> 01:38:50,255
And then I had no idea how Was

2698
01:38:50,255 --> 01:38:51,614
gonna do it or what the vegan would

2699
01:38:51,614 --> 01:38:53,375
be or, you know, what journey would take

2700
01:38:53,375 --> 01:38:55,054
me to let point in, but many of

2701
01:38:55,054 --> 01:38:56,414
data Turned out I did write that book.

2702
01:38:57,229 --> 01:38:58,738
And at bigger of the second book project,

2703
01:38:58,976 --> 01:39:01,145
I feel like the final destination is motherhood.

2704
01:39:01,678 --> 01:39:02,712
It's like a book about,

2705
01:39:04,873 --> 01:39:06,230
See. Can't even say what it's about. I

2706
01:39:06,230 --> 01:39:08,145
just know that the final definition is something

2707
01:39:08,145 --> 01:39:09,981
about being a mom or, like, having a

2708
01:39:09,981 --> 01:39:11,817
mom, a mom's general role.

2709
01:39:12,630 --> 01:39:15,266
And also maybe about empire, you know, again,

2710
01:39:15,426 --> 01:39:16,545
I think I often have to go through

2711
01:39:16,545 --> 01:39:19,581
this political lens to arrive at myself. So

2712
01:39:19,740 --> 01:39:21,908
I feel like, the political side of that

2713
01:39:21,908 --> 01:39:23,900
that most appeals... Oh, I feel like it's

2714
01:39:23,900 --> 01:39:26,289
most analogous to the experience of motherhood that

2715
01:39:26,449 --> 01:39:28,520
I went through with my mom, it Empire

2716
01:39:28,520 --> 01:39:29,317
where 1 person,

2717
01:39:30,049 --> 01:39:32,203
1 person knows everything about the other person.

2718
01:39:32,443 --> 01:39:33,639
In in this case, I I felt like

2719
01:39:33,639 --> 01:39:34,916
I you a lot lot of things about

2720
01:39:34,916 --> 01:39:36,671
my mom, but she didn't really know or

2721
01:39:36,671 --> 01:39:36,990
see me.

2722
01:39:37,564 --> 01:39:39,482
I feel like something about that imbalance really

2723
01:39:39,482 --> 01:39:41,719
reminds me of the dynamic of Empire. Mh.

2724
01:39:41,959 --> 01:39:43,957
And so these 2 regrets are kind of

2725
01:39:43,957 --> 01:39:46,207
like weaving. And there was a a lot

2726
01:39:46,207 --> 01:39:48,040
of other things I think that might be

2727
01:39:48,040 --> 01:39:49,635
spinning with the book. For example, I've been

2728
01:39:49,635 --> 01:39:51,707
thinking a lot about female friendships that I

2729
01:39:51,707 --> 01:39:54,752
had, throughout my life. But and about how

2730
01:39:54,752 --> 01:39:57,145
in some ways they replicate it this dynamic

2731
01:39:57,145 --> 01:39:59,139
or, you know, they try to... Maybe they

2732
01:39:59,139 --> 01:40:00,814
try to break away from this dynamic, but

2733
01:40:00,814 --> 01:40:03,286
we're not so successful, and I'm curious about

2734
01:40:03,286 --> 01:40:03,786
why

2735
01:40:04,733 --> 01:40:06,321
And then another threat is that I feel

2736
01:40:06,321 --> 01:40:07,829
like they're going to be interviews in this

2737
01:40:07,829 --> 01:40:10,529
book. So 1 of the thing Why think

2738
01:40:10,609 --> 01:40:11,561
I'm saying about.

2739
01:40:12,371 --> 01:40:14,119
It's like learning how to listen. I think

2740
01:40:14,198 --> 01:40:16,423
I'm... This is actually an area where I'm

2741
01:40:16,423 --> 01:40:19,125
not very strong because all my life, I

2742
01:40:19,125 --> 01:40:20,609
have been able to give off this that's.

2743
01:40:21,284 --> 01:40:22,713
And the person of things I'm this thing.

2744
01:40:22,951 --> 01:40:24,697
But I'm just, like, constructing a story about

2745
01:40:24,697 --> 01:40:25,650
them in my head.

2746
01:40:26,284 --> 01:40:27,635
Finally, I think I need to know how

2747
01:40:27,635 --> 01:40:29,166
to listen. Like, really listen

2748
01:40:29,634 --> 01:40:32,095
Yeah. On the other person's terms in being

2749
01:40:32,095 --> 01:40:34,556
rather than my own, and that's the challenge,

2750
01:40:34,794 --> 01:40:35,985
I think of the next scope.

2751
01:40:36,779 --> 01:40:38,390
Well, the interview forum

2752
01:40:38,859 --> 01:40:41,560
sort of helps, I think create a space

2753
01:40:41,560 --> 01:40:44,579
for this other voice. Right? It's not the

2754
01:40:44,579 --> 01:40:47,042
imagined other voice. It's an actual other voice.

2755
01:40:47,534 --> 01:40:49,287
So other people's words are gonna be in

2756
01:40:49,287 --> 01:40:51,040
your book. I think so. And I feel

2757
01:40:51,040 --> 01:40:53,032
like that's the only way. I quit buy

2758
01:40:53,032 --> 01:40:55,104
another but we've imagine what. But then I

2759
01:40:55,104 --> 01:40:56,617
would just be writing this book again. I

2760
01:40:56,617 --> 01:40:58,302
don't want it. If you like deploy us

2761
01:40:58,302 --> 01:40:59,652
like you tried new things.

2762
01:41:00,207 --> 01:41:02,271
But, yeah. I mean, just to kinda derail

2763
01:41:02,271 --> 01:41:04,891
it little little bit, like, having had that

2764
01:41:04,891 --> 01:41:06,493
x... Be of you and the others this

2765
01:41:06,493 --> 01:41:08,238
podcast is so it interesting for me because

2766
01:41:08,397 --> 01:41:10,143
I feel like even if we're doing this,

2767
01:41:10,381 --> 01:41:11,650
I'm looking at you I'm learning how to

2768
01:41:11,650 --> 01:41:14,441
this. And, I'm trying to lay understand how

2769
01:41:14,441 --> 01:41:15,893
you are doing the thing you're are doing

2770
01:41:16,027 --> 01:41:17,240
and trying to, like.

2771
01:41:18,088 --> 01:41:19,594
I don't know. Yeah. It's just very interesting

2772
01:41:19,594 --> 01:41:20,094
think.

2773
01:41:20,704 --> 01:41:20,942
Yeah.

2774
01:41:21,513 --> 01:41:23,344
That's on that's an honor to hear.

2775
01:41:24,459 --> 01:41:25,971
Thank you for being on the show today.

2776
01:41:26,211 --> 01:41:28,781
S we. Thank you very much. But this

2777
01:41:28,838 --> 01:41:30,449
was really nice to feel like all your

2778
01:41:30,449 --> 01:41:33,409
questions were so deep end thought provoking, and

2779
01:41:33,409 --> 01:41:35,250
there were also questions that know many people

2780
01:41:35,250 --> 01:41:38,050
have asked me before. Oh, good. Yeah. That's

2781
01:41:38,050 --> 01:41:40,858
great to hear. I We've been talking today

2782
01:41:40,858 --> 01:41:44,363
to Show T about her debut memoir, the

2783
01:41:44,363 --> 01:41:46,514
story game. You've been listening to between the

2784
01:41:46,514 --> 01:41:48,186
covers. I'm David name and your host.

2785
01:42:06,957 --> 01:42:09,273
Today's program was recorded at the volunteer powered,

2786
01:42:09,592 --> 01:42:12,567
non commercial listener sponsored full strength

2787
01:42:12,945 --> 01:42:15,100
makeshift home office be David Na.

2788
01:42:16,073 --> 01:42:18,229
You can find more of S t at

2789
01:42:18,229 --> 01:42:18,868
her website,

2790
01:42:19,587 --> 01:42:26,568
t s dot com, TJ0ASHZEHUI

2791
01:42:27,185 --> 01:42:27,743
dot com.

2792
01:42:28,621 --> 01:42:31,493
For the bonus audio, she's recorded a, 30

2793
01:42:31,493 --> 01:42:32,531
minute video for us,

2794
01:42:33,264 --> 01:42:35,997
a page by page narration slash

2795
01:42:36,694 --> 01:42:38,311
translation of the Chinese language

2796
01:42:38,689 --> 01:42:39,725
picture book mister Wing,

2797
01:42:40,695 --> 01:42:43,711
accompanied by a piano performance from 1 of

2798
01:42:43,711 --> 01:42:45,718
her childhood peers in conservatory.

2799
01:42:46,805 --> 01:42:49,304
This joins many long form translator

2800
01:42:49,843 --> 01:42:50,881
conversations, readings,

2801
01:42:51,520 --> 01:42:53,118
sounds landscapes, and kraft talks.

2802
01:42:53,837 --> 01:42:56,408
The bonus audio is only 1 possible thing

2803
01:42:56,408 --> 01:42:58,323
to choose from by joining them between the

2804
01:42:58,323 --> 01:43:00,877
covers community. It's a listener supporter.

2805
01:43:01,595 --> 01:43:03,451
Every supporter can join our brainstorm

2806
01:43:03,844 --> 01:43:06,820
future guests and every listener supporter receives

2807
01:43:07,199 --> 01:43:07,699
supplementary

2808
01:43:08,238 --> 01:43:10,075
resources with each conversation.

2809
01:43:10,729 --> 01:43:13,511
Of things discovered while preparing for the conversation,

2810
01:43:14,068 --> 01:43:16,771
things that we reference during it and places

2811
01:43:16,771 --> 01:43:18,362
to explore once you're done listening.

2812
01:43:19,489 --> 01:43:22,268
Additionally, there are a variety of other potential

2813
01:43:22,268 --> 01:43:25,524
gifts and rewards. The bonus audio archive to

2814
01:43:25,524 --> 01:43:27,747
the Tin house early readers leadership subscription.

2815
01:43:28,319 --> 01:43:30,314
Getting 12 books over the course of a

2816
01:43:30,314 --> 01:43:32,947
year, months before they're available to the general

2817
01:43:32,947 --> 01:43:33,346
public.

2818
01:43:33,985 --> 01:43:35,820
To a bundle of books selected by me,

2819
01:43:36,394 --> 01:43:37,191
and sent to you.

2820
01:43:38,068 --> 01:43:40,403
If find out more at patreon dot com

2821
01:43:40,619 --> 01:43:41,737
slash between the covers.

2822
01:43:42,533 --> 01:43:44,208
Or if you prefer a 1 time donation,

2823
01:43:44,368 --> 01:43:46,158
you can do so my paypal

2824
01:43:46,536 --> 01:43:48,391
at 10 house dot com slash

2825
01:43:48,849 --> 01:43:49,088
support.

2826
01:43:50,045 --> 01:43:51,560
I'd like to thank the 10 house team,

2827
01:43:52,279 --> 01:43:54,273
Elizabeth Tom mayo and Lisa Og in the

2828
01:43:54,273 --> 01:43:54,831
book division,

2829
01:43:55,484 --> 01:43:57,001
best s New York department,

2830
01:43:57,640 --> 01:43:58,997
Becky Kramer and Publicity,

2831
01:43:59,555 --> 01:44:02,030
in Lance Cl, the director of the summer

2832
01:44:02,030 --> 01:44:04,105
in winter 10 house riders workshops.

2833
01:44:05,076 --> 01:44:07,725
Finally, I'd like to thank past between the

2834
01:44:07,783 --> 01:44:10,410
guest, poet, musician, composer,

2835
01:44:10,967 --> 01:44:12,082
performer, and much more.

2836
01:44:12,814 --> 01:44:15,592
Alicia Joe Robbins for making the intro and

2837
01:44:15,592 --> 01:44:16,863
the out for the show.

2838
01:44:17,498 --> 01:44:19,324
You can find out more about her work,

2839
01:44:19,960 --> 01:44:21,707
her writing, her music,

2840
01:44:22,119 --> 01:44:22,939
her film

2841
01:44:23,395 --> 01:44:26,608
at joe dot com. ALI

2842
01:44:26,746 --> 01:44:28,421
cia AJ0

2843
01:44:28,421 --> 01:44:28,900
dot com,