1 00:00:02,240 --> 00:00:04,980 This is where health insurance leadership comes together. 2 00:00:05,279 --> 00:00:08,960 Becker's fourth annual spring payer issues roundtable brings 3 00:00:08,960 --> 00:00:10,500 together over 400 4 00:00:10,639 --> 00:00:13,039 payer and health plan executives and more than 5 00:00:13,039 --> 00:00:16,494 100 speakers to Chicago April. 6 00:00:16,875 --> 00:00:19,754 This year's event includes keynote conversations with the 7 00:00:19,754 --> 00:00:23,035 industry's top leaders and former president George W. 8 00:00:23,035 --> 00:00:25,675 Bush. For the full agenda and event details, 9 00:00:25,675 --> 00:00:27,754 visit beckershospitalreview.com 10 00:00:27,754 --> 00:00:29,195 and click on the events tab in the 11 00:00:29,195 --> 00:00:31,480 upper right. We're looking forward to hosting you 12 00:00:31,480 --> 00:00:32,619 here in Chicago. 13 00:00:33,960 --> 00:00:36,039 Hello, everyone. This is Jacob Emerson with the 14 00:00:36,039 --> 00:00:38,920 Becker's Pay Your Issues podcast. Thrilled today to 15 00:00:38,920 --> 00:00:41,659 be joined by SCAN Group president and CEO, 16 00:00:41,719 --> 00:00:44,215 doctor Sachin Jain. Doctor Jain, thanks so much 17 00:00:44,215 --> 00:00:45,495 for taking the time to chat with me 18 00:00:45,495 --> 00:00:47,655 on the podcast once again. Thanks so much 19 00:00:47,655 --> 00:00:49,255 for having me, Jacob. It's always an honor 20 00:00:49,255 --> 00:00:52,295 and a pleasure. Absolutely. Likewise. And, we've got 21 00:00:52,295 --> 00:00:54,215 a lot we wanna, talk with you about 22 00:00:54,215 --> 00:00:55,195 today, Sachin, 23 00:00:55,655 --> 00:00:57,995 about a piece you wrote for Forbes. 24 00:00:58,560 --> 00:00:59,960 But, obviously, as you know, there there's been 25 00:00:59,960 --> 00:01:00,899 a lot happening 26 00:01:01,440 --> 00:01:03,520 across the health care industry this year already 27 00:01:03,520 --> 00:01:05,520 in the first few weeks of the year. 28 00:01:05,520 --> 00:01:07,620 A lot of federal policy debate and proposals, 29 00:01:08,240 --> 00:01:08,900 in Washington. 30 00:01:09,439 --> 00:01:11,984 Got the CEOs of the largest insurers testifying 31 00:01:11,984 --> 00:01:14,325 before Congress last week over rising premiums. 32 00:01:14,864 --> 00:01:16,064 And then you wrote in your piece that, 33 00:01:16,064 --> 00:01:17,825 of course, that all of this is happening 34 00:01:17,825 --> 00:01:20,484 as trust in the industry overall remains fragile, 35 00:01:20,944 --> 00:01:22,625 given the events of the last couple of 36 00:01:22,625 --> 00:01:23,685 years. So 37 00:01:24,070 --> 00:01:25,130 against that backdrop, 38 00:01:25,750 --> 00:01:27,430 you published an op ed in Forbes this 39 00:01:27,430 --> 00:01:30,710 month outlining 10 health care leadership resolutions for 40 00:01:30,710 --> 00:01:31,609 the year ahead. 41 00:01:32,390 --> 00:01:33,990 You you noted it's it's not a trend 42 00:01:33,990 --> 00:01:36,469 forecast. It's not a strategy framework. It's a 43 00:01:36,469 --> 00:01:37,770 candid call for 44 00:01:38,114 --> 00:01:38,614 accountability. 45 00:01:39,075 --> 00:01:40,834 And you're arguing that health care's core challenge 46 00:01:40,834 --> 00:01:43,655 is not innovation fatigue or talent talent shortages, 47 00:01:44,114 --> 00:01:46,694 but a growing deficit of leadership resolve. 48 00:01:47,075 --> 00:01:48,995 So so, correct me if I if I 49 00:01:48,995 --> 00:01:51,394 frame that incorrectly at all, Sachin. But but 50 00:01:51,394 --> 00:01:52,834 how I wanna discuss I think you framed 51 00:01:52,834 --> 00:01:54,209 it I think you framed it better than, 52 00:01:54,450 --> 00:01:55,969 I framed it, Jacob. So thank you. Yeah. 53 00:01:55,969 --> 00:01:57,810 I appreciate it. Hear that. I mean, tell 54 00:01:57,810 --> 00:01:59,329 us, why'd you wanna write this piece? Why'd 55 00:01:59,329 --> 00:02:01,569 you wanna start up this year writing this 56 00:02:01,569 --> 00:02:03,489 in in such a public manner? Well, on 57 00:02:03,489 --> 00:02:05,170 a on a personal note, I'm a big 58 00:02:05,170 --> 00:02:08,004 New Year's resolutions guy, so I like to 59 00:02:08,004 --> 00:02:09,364 spend the last couple of weeks of the 60 00:02:09,364 --> 00:02:12,185 year thinking about the next year. And 61 00:02:12,644 --> 00:02:14,405 as I was doing that for myself on 62 00:02:14,405 --> 00:02:16,745 a personal level, I started to think about 63 00:02:18,004 --> 00:02:20,344 my resolutions from a professional perspective. 64 00:02:21,044 --> 00:02:21,544 And 65 00:02:22,389 --> 00:02:24,389 I started to think about the behaviors that 66 00:02:24,389 --> 00:02:26,310 I wanted to see more in myself and 67 00:02:26,310 --> 00:02:27,370 then also behaviors 68 00:02:27,909 --> 00:02:29,509 that I think we need to see, you 69 00:02:29,509 --> 00:02:31,689 know, more broadly. And, 70 00:02:32,229 --> 00:02:34,549 you know, number one is something I believe 71 00:02:34,549 --> 00:02:36,549 in, you know, to my core, which is 72 00:02:36,549 --> 00:02:38,655 that we all need to say the hard 73 00:02:38,655 --> 00:02:40,514 things and do the hard things more. 74 00:02:40,814 --> 00:02:42,814 I think health care is an industry that 75 00:02:42,814 --> 00:02:45,074 is just bereft with happy talk, 76 00:02:45,534 --> 00:02:47,775 and we need to kinda move beyond the 77 00:02:47,775 --> 00:02:49,474 happy talk in part because 78 00:02:49,935 --> 00:02:52,094 I think the happy talk actually gets in 79 00:02:52,094 --> 00:02:52,754 the way 80 00:02:53,199 --> 00:02:54,419 of actually addressing 81 00:02:55,040 --> 00:02:57,120 the real problems, the real elephants in the 82 00:02:57,120 --> 00:02:59,520 room. If we're constantly kinda talking about what's 83 00:02:59,520 --> 00:03:00,020 working, 84 00:03:00,319 --> 00:03:02,340 we're not talking about what's not working. 85 00:03:02,879 --> 00:03:04,639 And, you know, to connect it back to 86 00:03:04,639 --> 00:03:06,260 the trust point that you made earlier, 87 00:03:06,805 --> 00:03:08,485 we may not be talking about it as 88 00:03:08,485 --> 00:03:09,385 health care leaders, 89 00:03:09,764 --> 00:03:11,145 but all of our patients 90 00:03:11,444 --> 00:03:13,764 and health care workers are all talking about 91 00:03:13,764 --> 00:03:14,824 it everywhere. 92 00:03:15,444 --> 00:03:18,805 And so the trust gap builds when there's 93 00:03:18,805 --> 00:03:20,885 one talk track that's happening at a leadership 94 00:03:20,885 --> 00:03:23,490 level, and then there's another talk track that's 95 00:03:23,490 --> 00:03:24,629 happening at the patient 96 00:03:25,170 --> 00:03:26,390 and clinician level. 97 00:03:26,770 --> 00:03:29,409 And when those two things are, you know, 98 00:03:29,409 --> 00:03:30,629 increasingly misaligned, 99 00:03:31,569 --> 00:03:32,230 it actually 100 00:03:33,090 --> 00:03:35,330 widens the trust gap because it's it gives 101 00:03:35,330 --> 00:03:36,310 people the feeling 102 00:03:36,770 --> 00:03:39,064 that, you know, some people are living on 103 00:03:39,064 --> 00:03:41,084 Mars while other people are living on Venus. 104 00:03:41,625 --> 00:03:42,125 And 105 00:03:42,905 --> 00:03:44,504 we all need to be on planet Earth. 106 00:03:44,504 --> 00:03:46,504 And I think part of that begins with 107 00:03:46,504 --> 00:03:47,004 actually 108 00:03:47,384 --> 00:03:49,705 just naming the problem so that we can 109 00:03:49,705 --> 00:03:51,245 actually start to fix the problem. 110 00:03:52,400 --> 00:03:53,919 Sure. And I and I hear you loud 111 00:03:53,919 --> 00:03:55,620 and clear. I would, share 112 00:03:56,000 --> 00:03:56,740 in being, 113 00:03:57,680 --> 00:03:59,780 and getting sick of of the happy talk 114 00:03:59,840 --> 00:04:02,159 from leaders within the industry. I certainly hear 115 00:04:02,159 --> 00:04:02,800 hear it, 116 00:04:03,604 --> 00:04:05,364 daily. Nick, if you're only now getting sick 117 00:04:05,364 --> 00:04:06,724 of it, I mean, you just you listen 118 00:04:06,724 --> 00:04:07,965 to it all the time. So I'm just, 119 00:04:07,965 --> 00:04:09,364 you know, you listen to it more than 120 00:04:09,364 --> 00:04:10,884 I do. But let me ask you because 121 00:04:10,884 --> 00:04:12,405 I think where this is coming from is 122 00:04:12,405 --> 00:04:14,724 it's, from, you know, you wrote this isn't 123 00:04:14,724 --> 00:04:16,680 coming from lack of intelligence. It's it's not 124 00:04:16,680 --> 00:04:18,360 coming from people who don't know what they're 125 00:04:18,360 --> 00:04:20,279 doing. But at least from, you know, when 126 00:04:20,279 --> 00:04:23,000 I'm having interviews with very senior executives in 127 00:04:23,000 --> 00:04:23,660 this industry, 128 00:04:24,040 --> 00:04:26,680 they are scared to say what they really 129 00:04:26,680 --> 00:04:29,115 feel either because, you know, they they have 130 00:04:29,115 --> 00:04:31,355 their PR department that has written them very 131 00:04:31,355 --> 00:04:33,055 strict things to communicate. 132 00:04:33,675 --> 00:04:35,194 They don't wanna get into legal trouble. They 133 00:04:35,194 --> 00:04:37,194 don't wanna, you know, get into trouble with 134 00:04:37,194 --> 00:04:39,915 their board. Whatever it is, executives are often 135 00:04:39,915 --> 00:04:41,355 very afraid to step in it, and they 136 00:04:41,355 --> 00:04:43,750 don't wanna go in in the way that, 137 00:04:43,750 --> 00:04:45,750 you know, is, I think, framed as the 138 00:04:45,750 --> 00:04:47,290 correct way of communicating 139 00:04:47,750 --> 00:04:49,850 whatever we're talking about in the given moment. 140 00:04:49,990 --> 00:04:50,490 So 141 00:04:50,949 --> 00:04:52,629 how do you how do you counter something 142 00:04:52,629 --> 00:04:55,270 like that? Something that, I think innately is 143 00:04:55,270 --> 00:04:57,225 a fear, from a lot of leadership in 144 00:04:57,225 --> 00:04:59,064 the industry. Well, I'm glad you mentioned the 145 00:04:59,064 --> 00:05:01,464 PR people because I think we have a 146 00:05:01,464 --> 00:05:03,964 broken PR playbook for health care. 147 00:05:04,264 --> 00:05:06,105 And I liken it a lot to the 148 00:05:06,105 --> 00:05:08,125 Ivy League presidents that were 149 00:05:08,904 --> 00:05:09,564 in congress 150 00:05:10,360 --> 00:05:10,860 testifying 151 00:05:11,560 --> 00:05:13,720 and not answering questions that were asked very 152 00:05:13,720 --> 00:05:14,699 directly directly. 153 00:05:15,399 --> 00:05:17,419 And you see that that playbook 154 00:05:17,879 --> 00:05:19,019 of obfuscation, 155 00:05:19,879 --> 00:05:20,379 of 156 00:05:21,079 --> 00:05:23,560 being excessively careful in the face of hard 157 00:05:23,560 --> 00:05:24,060 questions, 158 00:05:25,285 --> 00:05:27,604 plays exactly the way that it played, you 159 00:05:27,604 --> 00:05:29,365 know, when the those Ivy League presidents were 160 00:05:29,365 --> 00:05:30,264 actually testifying 161 00:05:30,884 --> 00:05:33,604 before congress, which is actually plays very badly. 162 00:05:33,604 --> 00:05:35,204 If you're asked direct questions and you don't 163 00:05:35,204 --> 00:05:37,604 answer them directly, and if you're not speaking 164 00:05:37,604 --> 00:05:38,104 truth 165 00:05:38,410 --> 00:05:39,149 in situations where you're 166 00:05:39,449 --> 00:05:40,509 asked to speak truth, 167 00:05:41,050 --> 00:05:43,209 it leaves a certain taste in your mouth. 168 00:05:43,209 --> 00:05:44,350 And I think that, 169 00:05:44,730 --> 00:05:47,370 you know, the instructions that we're getting from 170 00:05:47,370 --> 00:05:48,189 PR people 171 00:05:48,649 --> 00:05:51,035 are outdated. Now we have a great PR 172 00:05:51,035 --> 00:05:52,895 department, small and mighty at SCAN. 173 00:05:53,435 --> 00:05:55,455 But, you know, the truth is is that 174 00:05:55,675 --> 00:05:56,495 we are, 175 00:05:57,035 --> 00:05:59,274 you know, getting out of the world of 176 00:05:59,274 --> 00:06:01,194 talking points and getting into the world of 177 00:06:01,194 --> 00:06:04,154 just speaking the truth plainly and simply and 178 00:06:04,154 --> 00:06:04,654 honestly. 179 00:06:05,009 --> 00:06:06,770 I think, you know, you know, we had 180 00:06:06,770 --> 00:06:09,009 this big national campaign last year with which 181 00:06:09,009 --> 00:06:10,629 was health insurance is broken, 182 00:06:11,490 --> 00:06:12,710 was our our tagline. 183 00:06:13,410 --> 00:06:16,290 You know, SCAN sees it and, is doing 184 00:06:16,290 --> 00:06:17,509 something to fix it. 185 00:06:18,064 --> 00:06:19,904 That's a very different message than you hear 186 00:06:19,904 --> 00:06:21,844 from almost all of our competitors, 187 00:06:22,305 --> 00:06:24,144 both on the payer side and the provider 188 00:06:24,144 --> 00:06:26,865 side, where most folks are touting their US 189 00:06:26,865 --> 00:06:28,404 News and World Report rankings. 190 00:06:28,784 --> 00:06:29,925 They're touting their, 191 00:06:30,529 --> 00:06:33,050 you know, VISIANT ratings. Whatever it is, the 192 00:06:33,050 --> 00:06:34,269 truth is is that 193 00:06:34,569 --> 00:06:35,550 if you actually 194 00:06:35,850 --> 00:06:38,009 look at what's really happening to patients and 195 00:06:38,009 --> 00:06:40,329 clinicians, health care is getting worse and not 196 00:06:40,329 --> 00:06:40,829 better. 197 00:06:41,290 --> 00:06:44,029 And if you actually say that out loud, 198 00:06:44,444 --> 00:06:46,845 it gives you the best chance possible to 199 00:06:46,845 --> 00:06:48,064 actually fix it. 200 00:06:48,604 --> 00:06:50,524 But I think we're robbing ourselves of that 201 00:06:50,524 --> 00:06:51,985 when we hide behind 202 00:06:52,764 --> 00:06:55,884 the p the simple PR talk. And, again, 203 00:06:55,884 --> 00:06:57,779 I'll just say that old playbooks are really, 204 00:06:57,779 --> 00:07:00,360 really outdated. Saying nothing is not a strategy. 205 00:07:01,060 --> 00:07:02,899 And so I would I think that one 206 00:07:02,899 --> 00:07:04,819 of the biggest opportunities we have as an 207 00:07:04,819 --> 00:07:07,459 industry to move forward the quality of leadership 208 00:07:07,459 --> 00:07:08,839 and the impact of leadership 209 00:07:09,535 --> 00:07:10,514 is to actually 210 00:07:11,375 --> 00:07:14,014 commit to speaking more plainly and more truthfully 211 00:07:14,014 --> 00:07:14,754 and more honestly 212 00:07:15,295 --> 00:07:16,995 about what's really going on. 213 00:07:17,615 --> 00:07:19,375 Absolutely. And I and I definitely would give 214 00:07:19,375 --> 00:07:22,740 kudos to SCAN for a very unique Medicare 215 00:07:22,740 --> 00:07:25,139 Advantage campaign last year, such and definitely one 216 00:07:25,139 --> 00:07:26,980 of the more candid moments we've seen in 217 00:07:26,980 --> 00:07:28,339 the industry over the last few years in 218 00:07:28,339 --> 00:07:31,000 terms of just openly talking about the frustrations 219 00:07:31,060 --> 00:07:33,139 that members all across the country, not not 220 00:07:33,139 --> 00:07:33,639 SCAN, 221 00:07:34,420 --> 00:07:36,279 have with their health plans. 222 00:07:36,615 --> 00:07:37,974 But I also wonder, you know, there's a 223 00:07:37,974 --> 00:07:40,555 lot of leaders that don't necessarily see themselves 224 00:07:40,694 --> 00:07:43,115 as wanting to be or needing to be 225 00:07:43,414 --> 00:07:43,914 mouthpieces 226 00:07:44,294 --> 00:07:44,794 for, 227 00:07:45,414 --> 00:07:48,154 industry wide change. They just wanna focus on, 228 00:07:48,774 --> 00:07:49,274 quiet 229 00:07:49,759 --> 00:07:53,060 operational discipline within their their specific organizations. 230 00:07:53,759 --> 00:07:55,360 Do you think that there's a risk here 231 00:07:55,360 --> 00:07:58,560 of them getting drowned out by people who 232 00:07:58,560 --> 00:07:59,300 are louder, 233 00:07:59,920 --> 00:08:01,540 even if those people are less, 234 00:08:02,000 --> 00:08:04,545 substantive in what they're saying? Yeah. Again, I'm 235 00:08:04,545 --> 00:08:06,225 gonna sound like a broken record, but I 236 00:08:06,225 --> 00:08:07,845 think it's an outdated playbook. 237 00:08:08,865 --> 00:08:10,384 I think, you know, one of the reasons 238 00:08:10,384 --> 00:08:12,384 we haven't had more policy change is that 239 00:08:12,384 --> 00:08:15,264 we are quietly going about our business, not 240 00:08:15,264 --> 00:08:17,264 really asking the hard questions and saying the 241 00:08:17,264 --> 00:08:19,500 hard things and and leading the kind of 242 00:08:19,500 --> 00:08:22,220 policy advocacy that we need. And what I'll 243 00:08:22,220 --> 00:08:23,979 say is if you're not part of driving 244 00:08:23,979 --> 00:08:25,759 change, change will happen to you. 245 00:08:26,060 --> 00:08:28,379 That happens over and over again. History proves 246 00:08:28,379 --> 00:08:30,139 that, you know, change will happen to those 247 00:08:30,139 --> 00:08:31,120 who don't actually 248 00:08:31,664 --> 00:08:33,365 participate in creating it themselves. 249 00:08:33,904 --> 00:08:36,144 And so I think we, as leaders, have 250 00:08:36,144 --> 00:08:38,084 an opportunity and almost an obligation 251 00:08:38,784 --> 00:08:40,964 to take our knowledge of what's not working 252 00:08:41,584 --> 00:08:43,605 and actually work proactively 253 00:08:43,985 --> 00:08:45,205 to address it, 254 00:08:45,579 --> 00:08:48,480 whether it's through operations, but also through advocacy, 255 00:08:48,539 --> 00:08:51,820 through policy, through public proclamations. I I think 256 00:08:51,820 --> 00:08:54,159 when you don't speak in 2026, 257 00:08:54,620 --> 00:08:57,500 you're seen as, frankly, complicit in the status 258 00:08:57,500 --> 00:09:00,000 quo. And I don't think that that's unfair. 259 00:09:00,105 --> 00:09:02,445 I think if you are not part of 260 00:09:02,664 --> 00:09:03,404 the voices 261 00:09:04,024 --> 00:09:06,664 advocating for change, you are indeed part of 262 00:09:06,664 --> 00:09:09,464 the broken status quo. And that is not 263 00:09:09,464 --> 00:09:11,625 a position that I think history will look 264 00:09:11,625 --> 00:09:12,684 favorably upon, 265 00:09:13,304 --> 00:09:15,299 in the in the future. So I think 266 00:09:15,299 --> 00:09:16,360 we all have to, 267 00:09:17,059 --> 00:09:19,220 you know, really think hard about how we 268 00:09:19,220 --> 00:09:21,240 show up and what we really stand for 269 00:09:21,460 --> 00:09:23,379 and move beyond the platitudes. And one of 270 00:09:23,379 --> 00:09:26,259 the my least favorite industry platitudes is the 271 00:09:26,259 --> 00:09:29,240 no margin, no mission platitude because it avoids 272 00:09:29,884 --> 00:09:31,745 the kind of reflection that's actually 273 00:09:32,445 --> 00:09:35,725 necessary about what the actual mission is. And 274 00:09:35,725 --> 00:09:37,085 I don't think the mission is to just 275 00:09:37,085 --> 00:09:39,804 keep your organization alive no matter what. I 276 00:09:39,804 --> 00:09:42,365 think the mission is to heal people, to 277 00:09:42,365 --> 00:09:45,360 serve the community, to improve population health. That's 278 00:09:45,360 --> 00:09:47,139 the work that we really need to do. 279 00:09:47,919 --> 00:09:49,279 Yeah. No. It's a it's a good call 280 00:09:49,279 --> 00:09:51,120 out. I I like that you're calling out 281 00:09:51,120 --> 00:09:53,440 your least favorite platitude such, and I I 282 00:09:53,440 --> 00:09:56,000 think maybe mine I would add is, meeting 283 00:09:56,000 --> 00:09:58,075 the member where they are. I hear that 284 00:09:58,075 --> 00:09:58,575 consistently, 285 00:09:59,355 --> 00:10:01,674 probably on a weekly basis. And at least 286 00:10:01,674 --> 00:10:03,355 from my perspective, that seems like something that 287 00:10:03,355 --> 00:10:05,195 should have been What about what about right? 288 00:10:05,195 --> 00:10:07,115 Right care, right time, right place. That's another 289 00:10:07,115 --> 00:10:08,394 one I'm sure you hear a lot on 290 00:10:08,394 --> 00:10:11,610 this, podcast, Jacob. Yeah. Definitely. And, hey, it's 291 00:10:11,610 --> 00:10:12,970 it's it's also something I wanted to ask 292 00:10:12,970 --> 00:10:15,690 about in in terms of just what we 293 00:10:15,690 --> 00:10:17,610 hear so much of right now, but it's 294 00:10:17,610 --> 00:10:19,850 it's almost saying everything and yet nothing, and 295 00:10:19,850 --> 00:10:21,389 it's it's the AI conversation 296 00:10:22,009 --> 00:10:23,450 section. And I and I say that because 297 00:10:23,450 --> 00:10:25,309 it's almost like every press release, 298 00:10:25,664 --> 00:10:28,105 every product raw, every initiative, every project has 299 00:10:28,105 --> 00:10:30,144 to have some kind of AI powered, AI 300 00:10:30,144 --> 00:10:30,644 driven 301 00:10:31,504 --> 00:10:33,504 explainer on on attached to the front of 302 00:10:33,504 --> 00:10:35,745 it. And, you know, I know this technology 303 00:10:35,745 --> 00:10:38,245 is is has been transformative for the industry 304 00:10:38,304 --> 00:10:40,019 right now, but I wanted to connect it 305 00:10:40,019 --> 00:10:41,299 back to what something you said in your 306 00:10:41,299 --> 00:10:43,460 piece. Well, actually actually, Jacob, I've pushed. I 307 00:10:43,460 --> 00:10:45,620 don't think it has been transformative. Right? That's 308 00:10:45,620 --> 00:10:47,940 the point is that, you know, you know, 309 00:10:47,940 --> 00:10:49,620 are you or I getting in to see 310 00:10:49,620 --> 00:10:52,179 our primary care doctors any sooner? Yeah. Are 311 00:10:52,179 --> 00:10:53,879 you or I, you know, actually 312 00:10:54,304 --> 00:10:56,164 getting the kind of care that we need 313 00:10:56,544 --> 00:10:57,985 when we need it because of it, you 314 00:10:57,985 --> 00:10:59,985 know, something that some health system is enabled 315 00:10:59,985 --> 00:11:02,065 by AI? I don't think so. Sure. And 316 00:11:02,065 --> 00:11:04,784 so until the benefit really accrues to the 317 00:11:04,784 --> 00:11:05,524 end customer, 318 00:11:06,144 --> 00:11:07,684 I you know, which is the patient, 319 00:11:08,000 --> 00:11:09,600 I don't think we can actually say that 320 00:11:09,600 --> 00:11:11,360 AI has led to any real change. And 321 00:11:11,360 --> 00:11:12,799 I think a lot of what's happening right 322 00:11:12,799 --> 00:11:14,559 now is we're we're getting a lot of, 323 00:11:14,559 --> 00:11:16,879 quote, unquote, back office innovation, which is really 324 00:11:16,879 --> 00:11:18,980 about revenue cycle management and coding, 325 00:11:19,839 --> 00:11:22,879 and we're not necessarily getting patient facing innovation. 326 00:11:22,879 --> 00:11:25,095 I I had this, you know, my my 327 00:11:25,095 --> 00:11:27,095 team a couple weeks ago was presenting to 328 00:11:27,095 --> 00:11:27,915 us the chatbot 329 00:11:28,455 --> 00:11:30,455 that feed a chatbot feature, which is, you 330 00:11:30,455 --> 00:11:32,295 know, kind of table stakes that, you know, 331 00:11:32,295 --> 00:11:34,615 every company has. And I just kept thinking 332 00:11:34,615 --> 00:11:36,695 to myself, has anyone ever met a chatbot 333 00:11:36,695 --> 00:11:37,995 that they actually like? 334 00:11:38,789 --> 00:11:40,470 And I couldn't couldn't think of anyone who's 335 00:11:40,470 --> 00:11:42,389 there like, oh, man. I use the United 336 00:11:42,389 --> 00:11:44,730 Airlines chatbot, and it was really awesome. 337 00:11:45,110 --> 00:11:47,269 I really prefer that to actually interacting with 338 00:11:47,269 --> 00:11:49,269 a person. Now certainly, like, if I had 339 00:11:49,269 --> 00:11:51,269 a simple request, like, you know, you know, 340 00:11:51,269 --> 00:11:53,110 send me my membership card or something like 341 00:11:53,110 --> 00:11:53,610 that, 342 00:11:54,845 --> 00:11:57,245 Those those types of, you know, features are 343 00:11:57,245 --> 00:11:59,105 are helpful and reduce friction. 344 00:11:59,644 --> 00:12:01,884 But what most people's health care problems aren't 345 00:12:01,884 --> 00:12:03,964 as simple as needing a membership card or 346 00:12:03,964 --> 00:12:06,365 needing a, you know, a a a, you 347 00:12:06,365 --> 00:12:07,804 know, a referral to a specialist. I think 348 00:12:07,804 --> 00:12:09,659 it gets much more complicated than that. 349 00:12:10,220 --> 00:12:12,319 It you know? And and that's the work, 350 00:12:12,379 --> 00:12:13,579 you know, that we need to do is 351 00:12:13,579 --> 00:12:16,399 make those complicated things better and simpler. 352 00:12:16,779 --> 00:12:19,199 So until AI is actually influencing 353 00:12:20,459 --> 00:12:23,019 the the complicated things and truly making the 354 00:12:23,019 --> 00:12:24,079 system work better, 355 00:12:24,444 --> 00:12:25,725 You know, I think we're we haven't the 356 00:12:25,725 --> 00:12:27,184 game hasn't even started yet. 357 00:12:27,644 --> 00:12:29,485 No. And I I appreciate the pushback. I 358 00:12:29,485 --> 00:12:32,204 certainly am guilty of falling for the rhetoric, 359 00:12:32,204 --> 00:12:33,964 I think, just as much as anybody. And 360 00:12:33,964 --> 00:12:36,125 I I I think the question there, Sachin, 361 00:12:36,125 --> 00:12:38,204 is how should the leaders listening in, who 362 00:12:38,204 --> 00:12:39,870 can also be just as guilty of this, 363 00:12:39,950 --> 00:12:43,490 how can they distinguish themselves between genuine transformation, 364 00:12:43,710 --> 00:12:45,470 whether that be at the company or industry 365 00:12:45,470 --> 00:12:47,490 wide, and some of the organizational 366 00:12:47,870 --> 00:12:50,029 noise that you described in your piece? I 367 00:12:50,029 --> 00:12:52,850 would say skepticism is in and toxic positivity 368 00:12:52,990 --> 00:12:53,649 is out. 369 00:12:54,254 --> 00:12:55,695 And I think, you you know, the way 370 00:12:55,695 --> 00:12:58,274 we can actually you you know, another another 371 00:12:58,575 --> 00:13:00,835 truism that my friend, Aman Bandari, 372 00:13:01,215 --> 00:13:01,615 who is, 373 00:13:02,815 --> 00:13:03,475 you know, 374 00:13:03,934 --> 00:13:05,774 the head of AI and and data science 375 00:13:05,774 --> 00:13:06,835 at Vertex Pharmaceuticals 376 00:13:07,360 --> 00:13:08,879 is, you know, show me a startup that's 377 00:13:08,879 --> 00:13:10,899 actually moved the needle on care delivery. 378 00:13:11,360 --> 00:13:12,960 And it you know, the truth is there's 379 00:13:12,960 --> 00:13:15,139 a few. But for the most part, 380 00:13:15,600 --> 00:13:18,019 most of what, you know, the startup ecosystem, 381 00:13:18,080 --> 00:13:20,000 the venture ecosystem is doing is adding a 382 00:13:20,000 --> 00:13:21,279 lot of noise. Now they're getting a lot 383 00:13:21,279 --> 00:13:22,580 of attention right now. 384 00:13:23,004 --> 00:13:25,004 But the truth is is that, you know, 385 00:13:25,004 --> 00:13:26,225 there's a lot of noise, 386 00:13:26,764 --> 00:13:27,584 and the noise 387 00:13:27,964 --> 00:13:30,764 the noise to actual impact ratio is off 388 00:13:30,764 --> 00:13:33,004 the charts right now. And I'd like to 389 00:13:33,004 --> 00:13:34,625 see us really push the impact 390 00:13:35,730 --> 00:13:38,370 numbers up and reduce the noise. And, you 391 00:13:38,370 --> 00:13:41,330 know, maybe part of part of, you know, 392 00:13:41,330 --> 00:13:43,169 what a Beckers can do is is start 393 00:13:43,169 --> 00:13:44,610 to be a more skeptical voice. And I 394 00:13:44,610 --> 00:13:47,330 think health care journalism could play an important 395 00:13:47,330 --> 00:13:48,309 role in this too. 396 00:13:49,524 --> 00:13:51,524 It's yeah. It's I really appreciate that call 397 00:13:51,524 --> 00:13:52,825 out as well. I would agree. 398 00:13:53,205 --> 00:13:56,245 We definitely have a responsibility to be more 399 00:13:56,245 --> 00:13:58,965 skeptical in all of the communications that are 400 00:13:58,965 --> 00:14:01,769 coming our way and what the authorities on 401 00:14:01,769 --> 00:14:03,450 these topics are telling us. So, yeah, I 402 00:14:03,450 --> 00:14:04,810 would agree with you. A simple a simple 403 00:14:04,810 --> 00:14:06,090 fix here. I mean, again, I don't think 404 00:14:06,090 --> 00:14:07,610 Becker's does this that much, but I think 405 00:14:07,610 --> 00:14:08,190 a lot 406 00:14:08,490 --> 00:14:10,730 of venues just get really focused on the 407 00:14:10,730 --> 00:14:11,230 fundraising. 408 00:14:11,850 --> 00:14:14,649 Mhmm. Right? It's like, oh, Joe's startup has, 409 00:14:14,649 --> 00:14:16,745 you know, raised a series b that has 410 00:14:17,125 --> 00:14:18,804 x, y, and z investors, and it's, you 411 00:14:18,804 --> 00:14:20,424 know, $30,000,000 round. 412 00:14:20,964 --> 00:14:24,245 And, you know, we're not actually talking about, 413 00:14:24,245 --> 00:14:25,384 hey. Joe startup, 414 00:14:26,325 --> 00:14:27,144 move the needle 415 00:14:27,524 --> 00:14:30,404 on the care of diabetics in x health 416 00:14:30,404 --> 00:14:32,409 system. Right? That's the kind of conversation that 417 00:14:32,409 --> 00:14:34,250 we need to be having more of, and 418 00:14:34,250 --> 00:14:36,169 that's the kind of stuff that we should 419 00:14:36,169 --> 00:14:38,730 be elevating more, not, you know, whether someone 420 00:14:38,730 --> 00:14:41,769 was clever enough to, you know, raise money 421 00:14:41,769 --> 00:14:44,424 from a syndicate of investors. Yeah. Absolutely. And 422 00:14:44,424 --> 00:14:46,504 I think, unfortunately, that's also a symptom of 423 00:14:46,504 --> 00:14:47,325 our media 424 00:14:47,784 --> 00:14:48,445 media ecosystem, 425 00:14:49,304 --> 00:14:52,424 going towards what are the audiences clicking on. 426 00:14:52,424 --> 00:14:54,504 And I know that's an entire other conversation, 427 00:14:54,504 --> 00:14:55,705 so I won't, you know, go down that 428 00:14:55,705 --> 00:14:57,464 path session. Sure. Sure. Yeah. I'm sorry I 429 00:14:57,464 --> 00:14:58,920 took us there. Sorry. No no worries at 430 00:14:58,920 --> 00:15:00,600 all. But I I wanted to ask about 431 00:15:00,600 --> 00:15:01,740 a few of your resolutions. 432 00:15:02,120 --> 00:15:04,600 One is elevating frontline workers, the people who 433 00:15:04,600 --> 00:15:07,080 are actually doing the work of health care 434 00:15:07,080 --> 00:15:07,980 in these organizations, 435 00:15:08,759 --> 00:15:12,794 rooting out toxic positivity, ending performative initiatives. 436 00:15:13,174 --> 00:15:14,875 I think all of these things really require, 437 00:15:15,654 --> 00:15:18,534 these leaders at these companies to seed some 438 00:15:18,534 --> 00:15:20,875 of their power or or at least confront 439 00:15:21,095 --> 00:15:24,980 entrenched interests, within their own organizations, which, as 440 00:15:24,980 --> 00:15:27,059 you know, across the industry, these companies can 441 00:15:27,059 --> 00:15:27,960 be massive. 442 00:15:28,899 --> 00:15:30,600 So what makes you confident that 443 00:15:30,980 --> 00:15:31,480 executives 444 00:15:32,019 --> 00:15:34,580 will actually do this, can actually do this 445 00:15:34,580 --> 00:15:36,904 kind of thing, rather than simply agreeing with 446 00:15:36,904 --> 00:15:38,365 you having the good intentions, 447 00:15:38,665 --> 00:15:40,924 but then moving on same as usual? 448 00:15:41,225 --> 00:15:42,504 Well, I think we need to change. I 449 00:15:42,504 --> 00:15:44,184 think everyone knows we need to change. I 450 00:15:44,184 --> 00:15:46,264 think most people in the middle ranks of 451 00:15:46,264 --> 00:15:47,565 most health care organizations 452 00:15:48,320 --> 00:15:48,980 are miserable. 453 00:15:49,360 --> 00:15:50,959 And I'll tell you why they're miserable. They're 454 00:15:50,959 --> 00:15:53,440 miserable because there's the happy talk that's coming 455 00:15:53,440 --> 00:15:55,679 from the top, and then there's the frontline 456 00:15:55,679 --> 00:15:58,100 reality that they're trying to manage and buffer. 457 00:15:58,639 --> 00:16:02,100 And they are struggling with the cognitive dissonance 458 00:16:02,285 --> 00:16:04,225 of the words they hear from their bosses 459 00:16:04,365 --> 00:16:07,165 and the cries that they hear from the 460 00:16:07,165 --> 00:16:07,985 front lines 461 00:16:08,365 --> 00:16:08,865 and, 462 00:16:09,565 --> 00:16:11,965 you know, the impact that they may not 463 00:16:11,965 --> 00:16:13,585 be having on patients. 464 00:16:14,045 --> 00:16:16,365 And so I think, you know, most people 465 00:16:16,365 --> 00:16:17,504 live with a certain 466 00:16:18,039 --> 00:16:20,620 amount of cognitive dissonance and moral discomfort. 467 00:16:21,080 --> 00:16:23,559 And I think, you know, part of what 468 00:16:23,559 --> 00:16:25,399 I wanted to do with these resolutions is 469 00:16:25,399 --> 00:16:27,559 give them a language, give these folks a 470 00:16:27,559 --> 00:16:28,059 language, 471 00:16:28,600 --> 00:16:30,440 and maybe even point to me or point 472 00:16:30,440 --> 00:16:32,154 to this article and say, look at what 473 00:16:32,154 --> 00:16:33,754 this guy's saying. How does this apply to 474 00:16:33,754 --> 00:16:34,495 our organization? 475 00:16:35,035 --> 00:16:36,875 It's not easy for someone to say these 476 00:16:36,875 --> 00:16:38,634 things out loud themselves. They are the things 477 00:16:38,634 --> 00:16:40,315 that they grumble about when they're talking to 478 00:16:40,315 --> 00:16:41,615 their friends and their families. 479 00:16:42,394 --> 00:16:44,794 But, you know, if it's an article form, 480 00:16:44,794 --> 00:16:46,394 maybe it's the kind of thing that can 481 00:16:46,394 --> 00:16:46,894 circulate 482 00:16:47,570 --> 00:16:49,350 and start a productive conversation 483 00:16:49,970 --> 00:16:52,529 about how these behaviors are happening in one's 484 00:16:52,529 --> 00:16:54,870 organizations and how they can move beyond them. 485 00:16:55,649 --> 00:16:58,149 So you're laying the groundwork for other leaders, 486 00:16:58,850 --> 00:16:59,350 to 487 00:16:59,705 --> 00:17:02,585 to use themselves, Sachin. I wonder, you know, 488 00:17:02,585 --> 00:17:04,424 jumping off of what we what we talked 489 00:17:04,424 --> 00:17:06,265 about, and what we saw last week in 490 00:17:06,265 --> 00:17:07,865 congress with some of the CEOs of the 491 00:17:07,865 --> 00:17:08,684 largest insurers, 492 00:17:09,305 --> 00:17:11,224 and and what was said or or what 493 00:17:11,224 --> 00:17:12,720 was not said, I think. 494 00:17:13,179 --> 00:17:15,899 Do you see examples of what you're talking 495 00:17:15,899 --> 00:17:18,139 about today already happening in the industry? Is 496 00:17:18,139 --> 00:17:19,899 there something you would point to that gives 497 00:17:19,899 --> 00:17:21,980 you hope that the industry is on the 498 00:17:21,980 --> 00:17:22,720 right path, 499 00:17:23,099 --> 00:17:24,779 or or am I framing that correctly? How 500 00:17:24,779 --> 00:17:26,164 would you describe where we're at in this 501 00:17:26,164 --> 00:17:27,845 process? You know, I give the folks at 502 00:17:27,845 --> 00:17:28,345 AHIP, 503 00:17:29,525 --> 00:17:31,125 a a a lot of credit for some 504 00:17:31,125 --> 00:17:33,684 of the work that came out of the 505 00:17:33,684 --> 00:17:36,585 post Brian Thompson murder. Right? The reform 506 00:17:37,684 --> 00:17:39,730 that they put in place, I think, was 507 00:17:39,730 --> 00:17:42,369 was meaningful, and it was potentially transformative. Certainly 508 00:17:42,369 --> 00:17:44,130 steps in the right direction and something that 509 00:17:44,130 --> 00:17:44,950 we at Scan 510 00:17:45,490 --> 00:17:47,190 have participated in as well. 511 00:17:47,569 --> 00:17:49,089 That said, I don't think we're going far 512 00:17:49,089 --> 00:17:50,549 enough because I think 513 00:17:51,169 --> 00:17:54,005 what the dominant culture is is to 514 00:17:54,384 --> 00:17:55,765 treat answering phones, 515 00:17:56,464 --> 00:17:59,825 and and contracting networks like we're saving lives. 516 00:17:59,825 --> 00:18:00,325 And 517 00:18:00,704 --> 00:18:02,544 I have a message to everyone in the 518 00:18:02,544 --> 00:18:03,845 pair industry who, 519 00:18:04,609 --> 00:18:06,769 you know, believes that we're saving lives we're 520 00:18:06,769 --> 00:18:08,369 not. I think the people on the front 521 00:18:08,369 --> 00:18:09,430 lines of care delivery 522 00:18:09,890 --> 00:18:12,070 are. Our work is to enable those people. 523 00:18:12,289 --> 00:18:14,849 But in many cases, we're putting barriers up 524 00:18:14,849 --> 00:18:17,090 to people actually accessing care, and we have 525 00:18:17,090 --> 00:18:17,894 to make things 526 00:18:18,295 --> 00:18:19,894 as easy as possible. We have to treat 527 00:18:19,894 --> 00:18:21,275 people like they're human beings, 528 00:18:21,575 --> 00:18:23,734 and we have to rehumanize our industry. I 529 00:18:23,734 --> 00:18:25,755 think that that term, rehumanization, 530 00:18:27,095 --> 00:18:28,394 is something that 531 00:18:28,775 --> 00:18:31,894 really needs to start to resonate and percolate 532 00:18:31,894 --> 00:18:34,150 in boardrooms and management teams 533 00:18:34,690 --> 00:18:35,190 because, 534 00:18:36,049 --> 00:18:37,910 unfortunately, a lot of what people have experienced 535 00:18:38,210 --> 00:18:39,269 is actually dehumanization, 536 00:18:39,730 --> 00:18:41,109 not not humanization. 537 00:18:42,609 --> 00:18:44,529 Wonderful. I I think that's a really good 538 00:18:44,529 --> 00:18:46,625 place to leave things, doctor Jain. So I 539 00:18:46,625 --> 00:18:48,464 wanna thank you for taking the time to 540 00:18:48,464 --> 00:18:50,545 chat with me on the podcast, and as 541 00:18:50,545 --> 00:18:52,625 always for for being candid with us and 542 00:18:52,625 --> 00:18:53,525 with our listeners, 543 00:18:54,065 --> 00:18:56,244 in what you said can often be, 544 00:18:56,865 --> 00:18:59,690 an industry and and periods where it's difficult 545 00:18:59,690 --> 00:19:02,430 to to hear those kinds of perspectives. So 546 00:19:02,490 --> 00:19:04,090 thank you for doing so. I really appreciate 547 00:19:04,090 --> 00:19:06,090 it. Always a pleasure, Jacob. Thank you so 548 00:19:06,090 --> 00:19:09,203 much, and, really appreciate the time. Yeah. Likewise. 549 00:19:09,203 --> 00:19:10,643 And and to our listeners, if you'd like 550 00:19:10,643 --> 00:19:12,643 to listen to more podcasts from Becker's, you 551 00:19:12,643 --> 00:19:15,303 can visit beckershospitalreview.com.